1 Wednesday, 12 March 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.32 p.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everybody in and around the
7 Madam Registrar, could you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,
9 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-83-T, the
10 Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 Could we have the appearances for today, starting with the
14 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Good afternoon, Your Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around
16 the courtroom. Daryl Mundis and Matthias Neuner for the Prosecution,
17 assisted by Alma Imamovic, our case manager.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
19 And for the Defence.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good
21 afternoon to our colleagues from the Prosecution and everyone in and
22 around the courtroom. I am Vasvija Vidovic, and Mr. Nicholas Robson, for
23 the Defence of General Rasim Delic, with our case manager, Lejla Gluhic,
24 and our intern, Lejla Kevat [as interpreted].
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
1 Just one little housekeeping matter before we call the witness.
2 It's with respect to one of the two motions by the Defence to which the
3 Prosecution responded yesterday. It's going to be an oral decision.
4 The Trial Chamber now delivers its oral decision on the "Defence
5 Motion for an Adjournment of Hearing" filed on 10 March 2008. The
6 Prosecution responded orally on 11 March 2008, indicating that it neither
7 opposes nor supports the motion.
8 The Defence motion requested an adjournment of the trial
9 proceedings scheduled for 1 and 2 April 2008 for the reason that
10 Ms. Vidovic is appearing as lead counsel in another case before the
11 Appeals Chamber. The Defence states that without an adjournment on the
12 requested dates, Ms. Vidovic will not be able to proof the Defence
13 witness who is scheduled to testify on 3rd and 4th April 2008, which
14 would jeopardise the accused's right to have adequate time and facilities
15 for preparation of his defence.
16 The Trial Chamber agrees with the Defence that given the
17 circumstances, it is in the interests of justice to grant an adjournment
18 on the requested dates. As such, the Trial Chamber grants the Defence
19 motion for an adjournment of hearing on the 1st and 2nd of April, 2008.
20 An additional hearing will be held on the 14th of April, 2008, to
21 compensate, in part, for the time lost as a result of this adjournment.
22 Thank you very much.
23 Madam Vidovic.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
25 Could we please ask the Court Usher to bring in Witness
1 Halim Husic.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please be brought into court.
3 [The witness entered court]
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, Mr. Husic.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, Mr. Husic, may I just remind you that at the
7 beginning of your testimony, you made a declaration to tell the truth,
8 the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth, and that, therefore, you
9 are still bound by the declaration to tell the truth, the whole truth,
10 and nothing else but the truth. Is that okay?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
13 WITNESS: HALIM HUSIC [Resumed]
14 [The witness answered through interpreter]
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, before you begin, can I just round
16 out my question of yesterday at the end of the day.
17 Mr. Husic, yesterday, when we disbanded here, I was in the
18 process of asking you a question, and I wanted to refer you to part of
19 your testimony which gave me the impression that your forces were
20 fighting against the HVO forces. It was at a time when you were
21 testifying about a young man, Brkic. Do you remember?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I remember.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's right. And the trial record has your
24 testimony as something like this:
25 "He was a minor, a young boy who joined the group of Ramo Durmis
1 for training. And as they were moving in the area of responsibility
2 under the control of the HVO, they drew fire from them and, among other
3 things, this young boy was killed."
4 Then there was a question saying: "When you say that it was
5 impossible to communicate, what are you referring to?"
6 You said: "I'm referring to the fact that the HVO forces had cut
7 off internally the various parts of the Bila Valley, one from another."
8 Now, that part of the testimony left me with the impression that
9 you were fighting against the HVO; but hardly a page later, still talking
10 about what I thought were the same incidents, you said:
11 "All armed formations that have not placed themselves under the
12 command of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina are to be
13 dealt with straight away. As for the HVO units, full cooperation should
14 be established with them due to there being part of the regular armed
15 forces. Instructions as to the further modes of organisation will soon
17 Now, this part says clearly that you're cooperating with the HVO,
18 hence my question yesterday: Who were you actually fighting against at
19 this time?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At this time, we were on the
21 defence lines against the Chetniks or the Serbian-Montenegrin aggressor
22 on Vlasic in the Bila Valley, where the 306th Mountain Brigade was and
23 the HVO Brigade Frankopan from Guca Gora, and some other units, groups of
24 armed men that we discussed yesterday, they did not have any mutual
25 conflicts; but in occasional incidents, especially after the HVO forces
1 put up blockades or check-points controlling the movement of anyone, they
2 would occasionally opened fire. These incidents were the one that I
3 actually was referring to that you understood as a conflict between these
5 This minor who was killed did not belong to the 306th Mountain
6 Brigade. He was a young boy who was 15 or 16 at the time, and he was in
7 one of these armed groups of Ramo Durmis, who was training them; and on
8 this occasion, fire was opened on them.
9 Now, this happened above the village Suhi Dol, an area that
10 belonged to the Bosniaks. However, above them were the HVO lines,
11 someone just opened fire willfully and murdered, killed this boy.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Could you, in one sentence, answer me this
14 question: Are you saying this young boy was killed by friendly fire?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 306th and the Frankopan
16 Brigade at the time cooperated. This young boy did not belong to either
17 the 306th or the Frankopan Brigade. He was in this armed group, and
18 incidents between them happened.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Frankopan Brigade was an HVO brigade; am I
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: This young boy was in -- was not in the 306th
23 Brigade but was in Ramo Durmis' unit?
24 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: And Ramo Durmis was part of the Army of the
1 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, was he not?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. We repeated this on several
3 occasions yesterday. He was not part of any unit of the Army of Bosnia
4 and Herzegovina.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: But he had been part of it at some stage and left?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Much earlier, before this period,
7 he was a member of the 7th Muslim Brigade; and with a group of fighters,
8 disagreeing with the policies of the Army of the Republic of
9 Bosnia-Herzegovina, he left the 7th Muslim Brigade and established his
10 own group, which represented itself variously using different names and
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay, now I understand. Thank you so much.
13 Sorry, Madam Vidovic.
14 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] There is still something I
15 cannot understand. You've just mentioned minor incidents between units
16 of the Bosnian Army and units of the HVO, but that doesn't match with
17 what you said; i.e., that Croats had segmented or cut off the various
18 parts of the Bila Valley and that there was -- that was impossible to
20 This was not a minor incident, so could you please explain what
21 you said when you said that those Croat forces were preventing you from
22 communicating and had cut off the various parts of the Bila Valley?
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you allow me,
24 perhaps I can help. At this point, I was going to show the witness a
25 document that will clarify this, if you allow me.
1 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. I'll be very
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Could the witness please be shown Exhibit 87.
5 For the record, before the document comes up on the screens, this
6 is a document from the Command of the 3rd Corps of 13 April 1993,
7 entitled "Protest."
8 Examination by Ms. Vidovic: [Continued]
9 Q. Mr. Husic, could you please --
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would ask the document be
11 zoomed in on the one-before-last paragraph of the document in Bosnian and
12 the English version.
13 Q. Witness, please take a look at this part of the document, and I
14 will read a small portion of it. It says:
15 "During the day on April 13th, 1993, HVO units set up new
16 roadblocks and reinforced the existing ones: The Han Bila-Zenica road at
17 Ovnak; the Rudnik-Novi Bila road; the village Pokrajcici, it's not quite
18 clear; Rudnik; the village of Guca Gora on Kosovo; and in front of
19 Guca Gora, several roadblocks on the Guca Gora-Travnik road. During the
20 night between the 13th and 14th of April, 1993, HVO units used small arms
21 fire for provocation purposes."
22 I would like you to explain the following: This is a document
23 dated the 13th of April, 1993. Does this document reflect the situation
24 in the Bila Valley as it was in mid-April 1993, as far as the
25 check-points are concerned?
1 A. Yes, absolutely. Yesterday, I spoke -- I mentioned on several
2 occasions that HVO forces agreed one thing and acted differently. We,
3 within the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, were clear
4 that we could not open a new front in addition to the fighting with the
5 Chetniks, and we tried to avoid conflict in any way possible and reach
6 solutions through agreements.
7 And, unfortunately, although on the one side we reached
8 agreements, on the other hand, in practice, it was quite different,
9 especially after April 8th, when, in Travnik, the Croatian Community of
10 Herceg-Bosna was convening a meeting, whose goal was to proclaim the
11 municipalities of Busovaca, Zenica, Vitez, on the 10th of April 1993,
12 which was the date of the anniversary of the independent State of
13 Croatia, to proclaim them independent.
14 Q. Thank you for your answer. Could we please discuss the following
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like the witness to be
17 shown Exhibit D -- excuse me, document D924.
18 Q. This is a document dealing with an order from the HVO Brigade
19 Frankopan in Guca Gora of the 24th of April, 1993.
20 Of course, I do not expect you to identify this document. It is
21 a short document, and I would please ask you to read this document. The
22 date is the 24th of May, 1993. Could you please read it and comment on
23 it, but briefly.
24 A. Yes. This is precisely what we are discussing now. The
25 check-points in the Bila Valley that were there, but they were in play of
1 some broader interest, and the dominant elevations at this time were
2 totally under full control of HVO forces, and that is very clear from
3 this order.
4 Q. Thank you. Do you recall that the document that I showed you, as
5 the document which was an order from General Hadzihasanovic, bore the
6 date in early April 1993; do you remember that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. The date on this document was the 3rd of April, 1993.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And I'm referring here to the order
10 that the witness discussed in relation to the question that was posed by
11 Your Honour, a document where the HVO was mentioned and where it was
12 stated that a conflict with the HVO should be avoided. The date was the
13 3rd of April.
14 Q. Do you agree that the situation was changing?
15 MR. NEUNER: Maybe we can, to help the witness answering also
16 this question, we can pull up the document itself, and the witness can
17 have a look at it. There was a lot of information going in, and I think
18 we should all see the document.
19 Thank you.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is totally all
22 right; although, I was trying to save time.
23 But before I go back to this document, Your Honour, could we
24 please -- could we please have a number issued for this document?
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Document 924 is admitted into evidence. May it
1 please be given an exhibit number.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become
3 Exhibit 1202.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
5 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see now again
7 document D230.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: In fact, it does look like D230 was not admitted
9 into evidence yesterday, so just as well it's coming up again.
10 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm advised it's been admitted through the Bar
12 Table motion.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Witness, can you see the date? You remember what I asked you a
15 bit earlier when my colleague from the Prosecution made his objection.
16 Do you recall that I asked you about the date of this document?
17 Could you please look at the date, and would you agree that it says there
18 that it's the 3rd of April, 1993? Can you see the date?
19 A. Yes, I do, but I'm not sure whether it's the 3rd or the 5th of
20 April, 1993.
21 Q. Yes. Could you please take a look up in the document, where it
22 says "Zenica"?
23 A. Yes. I see there it states the 3rd of April.
24 Q. Now, let me ask you this in relation to the date. This is to
25 clarify the question that Your Honour asked a bit earlier. At this time,
1 in early April 1993, was the corps and the units, you who were on the
2 ground, were you still trying at this time to avoid conflict with the
3 Croats; is that what you were trying to say?
4 A. Yes, that's exactly it.
5 MR. NEUNER: I'm sorry. The way the question was drafted,
6 phrased, it was a leading question, Your Honour.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] May I reply, Your Honour?
8 It would be a leading question if the witness had not already
9 answered this question in detail, the question that Judge Lattanzi posed.
10 A few moments ago, the witness explained in detail that at this time, the
11 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina tried to avoid conflict, and I'm just
12 trying to put -- to draw a tie, put a connection between this document
13 and the questions that Your Honours had yesterday about this.
14 This is the purpose of it; and, therefore, I think this question
15 was not leading, because the witness had already given a reply to it in
16 the same manner that I have interpreted it.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I would agree with that, Mr. Neuner. Would you
18 not? I thought Madam Vidovic was just taking us back to what the witness
19 already told us a little earlier. So, in that event, I'll allow the
21 Yes, Madam Vidovic, you may proceed.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. Mr. Husic, did you understand what I asked you? I asked you
24 whether the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, in early April 1993, tried to
25 avoid the conflict. What was the position of the Bosnia and Herzegovina
1 Army on the issue of a conflict with Croats?
2 A. At no cost, at no cost were we to open a conflict with the HVO,
3 because we were not strong enough to hold on the lines against the
4 Chetnik-Serbian-Montenegrin aggressor, and the lines of communication and
5 supply routes would have been closed at the same time.
6 In the Bila Valley, locally, this was especially important,
7 because we had no way out and no communication with anyone, except
8 through the territory held by the HVO.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 Your Honour, it was my understanding that this document has
11 already been assigned a number. Is that correct? I think it was from
12 the Bar Table motion. Thank you.
13 This document may now be removed, and I would like the witness to
14 be shown Exhibit 86.
15 Q. Witness, would you please focus your attention on the part of the
16 document of the 306th Brigade of 11 April 1993, referring to "Own
17 Forces." Would you please take a look, first of all, at the part which
18 says, "In accordance with the previous order ..."
19 "In accordance with the previous order," would you read that,
20 please? There, logistics and logistic support is discussed.
21 And, Witness, I will just quote the last sentence there from this
22 portion. It says there: "Logistics support of the unit is bad, which
23 makes it practically impossible for us to carry out our regular duties."
24 Then mention is made of lack of fuel, lubricants, spare parts,
25 weapons, ammunition, clothing and so on. What I would like to ask you is
1 this: Does this document reflect the actual situation as it was in
2 mid-April 1993 with the 306th Brigade?
3 A. Completely, and this is what we've been discussing throughout.
4 Q. Thank you. Would you now look further down in the document,
5 where it mentions the OG West Command.
6 You will see the part which says: "Communications with the
7 OG West Command has been practically nonexistent in approximately the
8 past ten days."
9 What I would like you to do is comment on the situation -- the
10 communications situation in the course of April and May 1993.
11 A. The siege [as interpreted] of OG West was in Bugojno. Conflicts
12 with the HVO forces had already started in Bugojno; and, at the time, we
13 didn't have any connection with the OG that we belonged to. This is why
14 our documents and the corps documents from that period of time were
15 addressed both to the corps and to the operations group or the corps.
16 Even though we were part of the operations group, the corps sent the
17 documents directly to the 306th Mountain Brigade.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Neuner.
19 MR. NEUNER: Sorry to interrupt my learned colleague. There's
20 just a correction on the transcript. Page 13, line 8, says "the siege of
21 OG West," and I believe the witness has said "the seat of OG West."
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Neuner.
23 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thanks to my colleague, Mr. Neuner.
25 Q. Witness, does this document show the actual state of affairs of
1 communication in the field in the 306th or not?
2 A. Yes, it does.
3 Q. Witness, have you heard you've been asked to speak up a little
5 A. Yes, thank you.
6 Q. Now I would like to talk about June 1993. Please, which military
7 forces were carrying out attacks in the River Bila Valley in June 1993,
8 if any?
9 A. The beginning of the conflict in the Bila Valley actually
10 happened on the 28th of May, 1993, when -- at the time when the
11 representatives of the Croatian and Bosnian people were negotiating in
12 Guca Gora, very close to the seat of the Frankopan Brigade. During these
13 negotiations, there was an alert given to the Frankopan Brigade units.
14 Their commander, Mr. Ilija Nakic, left the negotiations, and the other
15 negotiators of Croat ethnicity tried to help the Bosniak negotiators,
16 including myself, to pull out safely from Guca Gora.
17 And from that point on, in some 20 places of the Bila Valley, it
18 was absolutely not possible to move, nor was it possible for the
19 locations or localities to communicate amongst themselves, nor was any
20 action possible. The brigade commander, the chief of staff, and his two
21 assistants were blocked, practically captured in the village of Krpeljici
22 in the immediate vicinity of the village of Guca Gora.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you for that very long answer, but can you
25 please answer the question that was put. What forces were operating in
1 the Bila Valley in June 1993? Just tell us the names of the forces.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The HVO Frankopan Brigade, which
3 at the time was reinforced with the forced Zenica HVO Brigade, and the
4 Jure Francetic Brigade of the HVO, because all those brigades at the time
5 were in the Bila Valley.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Were they the only forces in the Bila Valley at
7 that time?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These were the HVO forces, also
9 the 306th Mountain Brigade was there.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: What else?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 306th Mountain Brigade, which
12 at that time, because of a general blockade, absolutely was not
13 functioning, except --
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Can you please listen to the question,
15 because we haven't got much time.
16 Don't explain what they were doing and what they were not doing.
17 The question is: What forces were involved in the Bila Valley in June
18 1993? Just give the names of the forces. Don't explain anything. If
19 there's an explanation required, you'll be asked to explain.
20 You said 306th Mountain Brigade, the Frankopan Brigade, with the
21 Jure Franc etic Brigade, and anybody else, any other force?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 1st Zenica HVO Brigade.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Anyone else?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. There were no other units,
25 but there were members of other --
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may just
2 clarify, perhaps there was a misunderstanding, so the question is not
3 getting the proper answer. I asked which forces, not which forces were
4 acting. I don't know how it was translated, but "which forces were
5 carrying out attacks in the Bila River Valley in 1993, if any."
6 This question is on page 14, lines 4 and 5. This is why the
7 witness is explaining the actions of the HVO Brigade. Perhaps this is
8 where the misunderstanding lies. I don't know if I've helped.
9 So my question was: Who was carrying out attacks in early
10 June 1993. Your question was who was active, if I'm correct.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic, but still he
12 should have just been able to mention the names of the forces that were
13 attacking, without giving a long story. That's all I'm asking for.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for your
16 Q. Witness, please, if you can concentrate as much as you can to
17 give simple, direct answers, please.
18 A. Very well.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness now look at
20 Exhibit D221, please -- I'm sorry. It's document 221, D221.
21 Can the English text be enlarged. Thank you.
22 Q. Witness, you can see that this is a telegram. It says the 306th
23 Brigade, Gabela, 910. The date is the 5th of June, 1993. I'm going to
24 quote to you --
25 MR. NEUNER: The Prosecution might be in error; but on the list
1 communicated to us, D221 is not on it.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, D21 is not there, but D221 is
4 there. Perhaps it was recorded in the transcript erroneously. The
5 number is not clear in the transcript. I'm talking about this document,
6 Your Honours, and this is document D221, at least as far as I'm aware.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Your learned friend is throwing his
8 shoulders almost in despair.
9 Mr. Neuner, do you have this document 221 on the list that was
10 given to you?
11 MR. NEUNER: The document is not on the list which I have printed
12 out, but I could be flexible if this is helping my colleague. It's not
13 on the list which I have.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: How are you being flexible?
15 MR. NEUNER: I could be flexible, please just go on; and if it's
16 possible --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Go on, Madam Vidovic.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, thank you, thank you.
19 Is it possible, Your Honours? Thank you.
20 Q. Witness, please, this is a small document. I hope that you've
21 read it. Can you please comment? I wanted to quote a part of the
22 document. It talks about Busovaca, and it says that, "We have 18 dead,
23 six seriously wounded ..."
24 So what I would like to ask you is: Does this reflect the actual
25 situation in the village of Velika Bukovica on the 5th of June, 1993, and
1 could you please also explain to Their Honours what was the ethnicity of
2 the population of Velika Bukovica?
3 A. Yes. The document reflects the actual state of affairs in Velika
4 Bukovica, where about 100 Bosniak citizens received an ultimatum
5 three days before that to hand over their weapons; and after they failed
6 to do that, they were attacked and they asked for help from the superior
7 command in this manner.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Who attacked them?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Forces of the HVO.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Q. Can you please tell us where you were in early June --
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] excuse me, Your Honours. Can this
13 document be given an exhibit number, please?
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: This document is admitted into evidence. May it
15 please be given an exhibit number.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become Exhibit
17 number 1203.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
19 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Mr. Husic, can you please tell us where you were in early June
23 A. From the 28th of May until the 12th of June, with the commander
24 of the brigade and the chief of staff and the assistant for finance, I
25 was cut off or blocked off in the village of Krpeljici, which is between
1 Velika Bukovica and Guca Gora.
2 Q. Did you or did you not have contacts with the part of the Command
3 of the 306th Brigade at Rudnik?
4 A. Only until the end of May. As of June 1st, we did not have
5 contacts with any of our units. We had no control with any of our units
6 or with any other inhabited place.
7 Q. And what was the situation vis a vis the Corps Command? Were
8 there any contacts with them?
9 A. The contacts with the Corps Command were established only by the
10 three duty officers from the main command post of the 306th Mountain
11 Brigade at Rudnik. Up until the time that the Command, on the 6th [as
12 interpreted] of June at 2000 hours in the evening, was shelled; and then
13 after that, even those communications were questionable for a certain
14 period of time. I'm not sure exactly for how long.
15 Q. Mr. Husic, can you stop for a second for me to correct the
16 transcript. It says here that you said that: "On the 6th of June until
17 2.00 p.m., it was possible to communicate."
18 But I understood you to say that this was possible until the
19 2nd of June. Was that what you actually said?
20 A. Yes, you heard me correctly. I did say the 2nd of June, because
21 on the 2nd of June attacks began on these villages, and that was when all
22 the communication was cut off.
23 Q. Thank you. I asked you now about the situation in the corps.
24 Did you have contacts with the corps, you, from the place where you were
25 blocked off?
1 A. No, not with the corps or with anyone else.
2 Q. And this part of the brigade that you said was blocked off, where
3 you were also, did you, after the 2nd of June, have contacts with the
4 rest of the brigade at Rudnik?
5 A. No.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you, Your
8 Can the witness now look at Exhibit 999, please.
9 Q. Mr. Husic, you can see that this is a document of the 5th of
10 June, 1993, an order sent to the Command of the 306th Brigade and Command
11 of the Bosnian Krajina Operations Group.
12 It's a short document. Can you please read it, and then I will
13 ask you to comment. Have you seen this document before?
14 A. This document could not have been sent to the brigade commander
15 at the time. The commander was blocked off, and the document actually
16 speaks about the villages of Velika Bukovica, Ricice, and Bandol being
17 attacked. Bandol, at that point in time, was already burned down by the
18 HVO forces.
19 Q. Just let me ask you, Mr. Husic, what is the basis of your
20 assertion that the commander could not have received this document?
21 A. As of the 28th, I was continually with the commander, with the
22 chief of staff, and with another colleague, a deputy -- an assistant
23 whose name I mentioned earlier; and we didn't have contacts with anyone
24 until the 8th of June, 1993.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. We can put this
1 document away.
2 I would like the witness now to look at Exhibit 258, please. For
3 the transcript, this is a report and proposals of the Bosanska Krajina
4 Operations Group of the 5th of June, 1993.
5 Q. I would ask you, Witness, to focus on the bottom third of the
6 document. This is the English version, the part that begins in the
7 second page of the English version, and, Witness, if you can find the
8 part that begins: "It was ordered for Esed Sipic to organize the units."
9 It's somewhere in the middle of the page. Can you see that?
10 A. Yes, I can.
11 Q. Can you read that part?
12 A. I've read it.
13 Q. Can you comment? What is said here is that the communication
14 with Sipic has been cut off, and "we don't have the information if he is
15 already on his way and how far he has come." Can you please comment on
16 this document?
17 A. This document could not have been delivered to Sipic because
18 there was no way of establishing the contacts between Sipic and Travnik
19 at that particular time.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you.
21 Can we put this document away now.
22 I would like the witness to look at Exhibit 1000 now, please.
23 For the transcript, this is a response from the 3rd Corps
24 Command, sent to the 306th Brigade, dated the 8th of June, 1993.
25 Q. I would like to ask you to read the document and to briefly
1 comment on it.
2 Have you seen this document? Did the brigade actually receive it
3 at that time?
4 A. No. This is still the time period where Mr. Sipic, as the
5 commander, and I was with him, was unable to receive the document. It
6 could have possibly reached the main command post at Rudnik, but I am not
7 aware of the document.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you.
9 Can this document be put away, please, and can the witness be
10 shown Exhibit 1001. For the transcript, this is a telegram of the 306th
11 Brigade of the 8th of June, 1993.
12 Q. I would also like to ask you to comment as to whether this
13 telegram could have been sent from the place where the commander, the
14 chief of staff, and you were.
15 A. No, absolutely not.
16 Q. Can you please comment on this?
17 A. It could have been sent only from the main command post at
18 Rudnik, which was also totally isolated, and we did not have any
19 communication with them or the possibility of communication at that time.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you.
21 Your Honours, if at this time this document can be put away, and
22 can the witness please look at Exhibit 998.
23 Q. Witness, before the document appears on the screen, I would like
24 to ask you this: Did you know the signature of the commander of the
25 brigade, Esed Sipic?
1 A. Yes, I did, absolutely.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Could the witness now please be shown the last page of this
4 document, the last page both in the English and the Bosnian version. The
5 English version, too, please.
6 Q. I would like to ask you this: Is what you see here, and you told
7 us that know the signature of Mr. Sipic, is this the signature of the
8 brigade commander, Mr. Esed Sipic?
9 A. No, absolutely not. We could also see his signature on the
10 previous couple of documents, so it can be compared.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I see. Could we now please go back
12 to the first page of this document.
13 Q. Please take a look at the heading of this document. Is this a
14 complete heading of the document? Can you see that?
15 A. No. This is not a heading, because there should be the name of
16 the brigade there, the 306th Brigade, if that's where the document is
17 coming from.
18 Q. I see. Did the documents that the brigade sent go out
19 incomplete, as far as you know?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Can you draw some conclusions based on the fact that there is a
22 portion of the heading missing and also that you don't recognise the
23 signature of Mr. Sipic?
24 A. If this is a document from the 306th Brigade, it's possible that
25 it's a draft but not the final document that was accepted.
1 Q. All right. I would now like to ask you one more time, and you
2 talked about the 7th Muslim Brigade yesterday and its presence in the
3 Bila Valley.
4 At the given time that we can see in this document, in
5 mid-May 1993, were there organised parts or units of the 7th Muslim
6 Brigade active in the Bila Valley?
7 A. Absolutely, no.
8 Q. Would you agree with me -- do you agree with me that, during the
9 proofing, I showed you this document and that you've read it in detail?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you see here that some different variants or scenarios are
12 mentioned here in the event of an attack by the Chetnik forces, and then
13 a scenario or a variant of an attack by HVO units?
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see the second page of
15 the document, please. Yes. This is what the document looks like,
16 Your Honour. This is the second page. It's blank, as it appears here.
17 Could we now see the third page, which will be the third page in
18 the English translation.
19 Q. Here, mention is made of a coordinated attack of Chetniks and HVO
20 forces, that variant.
21 Now, let me ask you this: What happened around the 6th of June,
22 1993, was this in concord with any of the variants that are mentioned
23 here in this document? Does this actually correspond to that?
24 A. Absolutely not, because the document mentions here the variants
25 or the scenarios that were theoretically discussed in the brigade from
1 the time when we were aware that there were contacts going on between the
2 Chetniks and the HVO. This was in mid-April 1993. But something quite
3 different happened, and nothing from this document was actually
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you.
6 I don't have any more questions related to this document.
7 Your Honour, this is the time when we are supposed to take a
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Vidovic.
10 We'll then take a break and come back at 4.00.
11 Court adjourned.
12 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Can the witness be shown Exhibit 234 now. Exhibit 234.
17 And while we're waiting for it to appear on our screens, let me
18 state for the record that this is a report of the head of the Observers
19 Mission, Ambassador Thibault, of the 19th of June, 1993.
20 Please turn to page 4 of the English version and page 4 of the
21 Bosnian version; therefore, page 4 in both versions.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
3 [Private session]
11 Pages 7387-7388 redacted. Private session
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in the open session.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
6 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Video VD45, please.
8 [Videotape played]
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.
10 Q. I didn't ask you before asking that the video be played that you
11 stop the video clip whenever you recognise someone.
12 [Videotape played]
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we rewind the tape a bit?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is me.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.
16 Q. Let me ask you this: We saw this piece of footage. Can you tell
17 us when it was made?
18 A. It was made on the 11th of June, in the morning hours, at
19 Guca Gora. It was broadcast by the Bosnian TV on the 11th of June at --
20 in the evening hours at around 1930.
21 Q. Which year was that?
22 A. 1993.
23 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a question. When was the
24 inside part of the Guca Gora monastery destroyed? I'm talking about the
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The footage shows that, at the
2 time when this was filmed, the monastery had not been damaged inside, or
3 rather, its interior had not been damaged.
4 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] This is not the question that I
5 put to you.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]
7 ... was made.
8 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] During this trial, we heard
9 that, at some stage, the inside part of the monastery was destroyed. I
10 was just wondering whether you were in a position to tell me when, if you
11 know. Maybe you don't.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
13 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Witness, let us clarify something. You heard the question put by
16 Her Honour. It was said that the monastery had been destroyed inside.
17 To your knowledge, in the course of 1993 and onwards, was the
18 monastery -- monastery's interior destroyed; and if so, to what extent?
19 A. No. I believe that Her Honour did not understand the footage,
20 because the anchorperson, before playing the footage, speaks about the
21 fact that the HVO had made it public that the members of the Muslim
22 Forces had destroyed the monastery; whereas, we were filming this in
23 order to deny that piece of information.
24 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]
25 ... because I believe there has been a misunderstanding, and maybe this
1 is my mistake. I am not talking about this video. I could see that, in
2 this video, the monastery doesn't seem destroyed, either inside or
3 outside. What I said is that, during the course of this trial, we were
4 told that the Guca Gora monastery had been destroyed inside the building.
5 If you know, well, you said you didn't know. It's fine. That's
6 all I wanted to know.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may be allowed to
8 put a question to the witness.
9 Q. Please, Witness, was this monastery ever destroyed on the inside?
10 A. No, absolutely not. There was slight damage to it, which
11 implied -- or rather, there was just traces of some greasy paint having
12 been dobbed around and that the organ was damaged and some of the
13 archives of the monastery. But even to this day, one can see that during
14 the war, the interior of the monastery was not destroyed.
15 Q. Therefore, was the interior of the monastery ever destroyed
16 during the war?
17 A. No, it was not.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this video be
19 assigned an exhibit number, please.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The video is admitted into evidence. May it
21 please be given an exhibit number.
22 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Registrar's records indicate that this has
24 already been given an exhibit number, Madam Vidovic.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't believe that
1 that is the case. We have only recently received this video footage.
2 Perhaps you're referring to another piece of footage provided to us by
3 the OTP. I don't believe that this is the case in relation to this
4 particular footage.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. We apologise. We just made a slight
7 THE REGISTRAR: The document will become Exhibit number 1204.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Then the video clip is
9 Exhibit 1204.
10 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].
12 Q. Let us go back to the damage that you referred to?
13 When was it made? You spoke of the paint, of the organ having
14 been damaged, and the archives. When did this take place?
15 A. It was after the relevant period; although, I can't tell you
16 precisely when. You know that yesterday we discussed a period of time
17 when occasionally armed groups arrived in Guca Gora and were responsible
18 for the incidents we discussed yesterday.
19 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you this: When it came to these
20 incidents, excesses, or crimes, and I'm speaking of the June of 1993 and
21 onwards, were you able to cooperate with the HVO forces and their
22 commands in obtaining information?
23 A. No, absolutely not. It was not possible to have any cooperation
24 with them, since they refused any contacts.
25 Q. Thank you. Let me now turn to the events in the village of
1 Maline on the 8th of June, 1993.
2 In the month of June of 1993, did you come to learn of some
3 events involving the Croat population of the village of Maline on the
4 8th of June, 1993?
5 A. Yes. We first received word of something having happened there
6 on the 13th of June. At that time, a part of the Command of the 306th
7 met, and the assistant commander for security informed us that there were
8 indications of --
9 MR. NEUNER: Sorry to interrupt. But the last question, the way
10 it was put, was again a leading one. The witness was directly asked
11 whether some events involving the Croat population in Maline on a
12 particular day he could testify about, and so far this witness has not
13 talked about this event.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: But, Mr. Neuner, it seems to me as if that kind of
15 question is directing the attention of the witness to a particular spot,
16 on a particular date, with respect to a particular population, to tell us
17 what he knows about that.
18 MR. NEUNER: This is correct, Your Honours. But the way it was
19 phrased, it is particularly put in a particular village, against a
20 particular ethnicity, on a particular day; and an alternative would have
21 been, "What has happened at the beginning of June of 1993," or something
22 like that. But the way this was put, it's directly focusing the
23 witness's attention to talk about one particular incident only.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: You know, for me, this is an issue that is alleged
25 specifically in the indictment, and I can't see why it cannot be
1 specifically pointed out to the witness.
2 MR. NEUNER: I'm not saying it can't specifically be pointed out.
3 I'm just saying the witness, if he has knowledge about it, would come to
4 it in his testimony, anyway. Just the way this is put now is going to
5 the very heart of the matter.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed, that is the alleged thing. It's as good
7 as saying, sir, the accused here is charged with this kind of crime on
8 this particular day, at this particular place, against this particular
9 group. What do you know about it?" It is the same thing as saying that.
10 MR. NEUNER: I just wanted to put my observation on the record.
11 I can be overruled by this and I understood that.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
13 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have another difficulty with
14 this. The witness doesn't answer the questions. Madam Vidovic asked him
15 if on the 8th of June, in Maline, some particular events took place
16 involving the Croat population; and then he says, "Yes." Then he starts
17 talking about another event.
18 So may I invite the witness to answer specifically to the
19 questions put to him by Madam Vidovic. Please avoid telling something
20 about entirely different things.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
22 To go back to the objection, the objection is overruled.
23 Madam Vidovic.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. Witness, I hope you understood this. Could you please answer the
1 question that I posed, whether you learned about some events and what was
2 happening to the part of the village where the Croatian ethnicity lived?
3 This was on the 8th of June.
4 A. Yes, and that's what I answered the first time.
5 Q. Could you tell us what it is that you learned?
6 A. I learned, on the 12th of June, when, for the first time, a part
7 of the Command of the 306th Mountain Brigade met, the assistant commander
8 for security, Mr. Delalic, stated that, in addition to numerous
9 disinformation that could be heard during the conflict, there were
10 indications that, in the area of Maline and Bikosi, a number of
11 Croatians, people of Croatian ethnicity, were killed.
12 The brigade commander, Mr. Sipic, ordered an investigation into
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Could the witness now please be shown document D810. For the
16 record, this is a document from the 306th Brigade. Under the text, the
17 date of the 10th of June, 1993 appears.
18 Q. Witness, can you read this text, and let's see if you know
19 anything about --
20 MR. NEUNER: Before the witness reads this document, can I put an
21 observation on the record.
22 This was put forward by the Bar Table motion by the Defence; and
23 at the time in the Prosecution's response, we suggested that a fuller
24 translation is provided of that document.
25 As I think it was explicitly stated in the Prosecution's
1 response, this little snippet, it's the second line of the document,
2 "through the network," is, so to speak, in the translation visible, but
3 not in the original.
4 So we, at the time, objected on the basis of this -- to this
5 document, and suggested that a more legible copy would be produced or may
6 be produced by the Defence. And as I can see here, it is still the same
7 copy, so the B/C/S is an incomplete copy.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner, are you able to remember what the
9 decision of the Chamber said on that point?
10 MR. NEUNER: I'm not exactly in a position to say now whether the
11 decision contained any particular finding. I just note that this is
12 still a "D," meaning a pre-trial number, so the document was not admitted
13 at the time.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: We have seen another "D" document a little
15 earlier, which we were told has already been admitted through the Bar
16 Table motion. So it is quite possible that these documents have not sort
17 of been assigned, what do you call that, exhibit numbers. For me, or for
18 the Trial Chamber, to be able to respond to what you are saying, I would
19 like to know what the decision of the Trial Chamber was on that point.
20 Yes, Madam Vidovic, you want to say something?
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to say
22 this: This document was admitted on the basis of a decision by the Trial
23 Chamber of 5 March 2008, but it has not been assigned a number yet.
24 As for what the Prosecutor was saying, that the document is
25 incomplete, I could not agree with that.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, according to the decision, it looks like it
3 was admitted. And, Mr. Neuner, what is your complaint about this
4 document? What is not legible?
5 MR. NEUNER: We argued at the time that this, "through the
6 network," which is the upper part of the English translation next to the
7 "231" and circled, that this portion of the document is not reflected in
8 the B/C/S original. There are actually a couple of objections which we
9 had at the time against this document.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
11 MR. NEUNER: There is something, but nothing which led us to
12 conclude, on the Prosecution side, that this means "through the network."
13 These are illegible items which are displayed there.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, I see, on the B/C/S, there is
15 something that is not very legible; and then somewhere there is "231" on
16 the same line. It looks like that's your learned friend's basis of
17 objection, that that part is not legible. Do you have anything to say?
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there's nothing I can
19 say. I do not possess a better version at this point in time, and I
20 apologise to the Prosecutor. I will try and see if we can find a better
21 copy. At this moment, I do not have it; but in any case, I will not ask
22 the witness anything about this part of the document.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: And maybe, then, the logical solution would then
24 be to strike out "through the network" in the English version for the
25 time being, until --
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I accept that, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: This document has been admitted through a decision
3 of the Trial Chamber of the 5th of March, 2008. The Trial Chamber would
4 like to add that the words "through the network" on the English version
5 be struck out, for the reason that the B/C/S version thereof is illegible
6 and it is not possible to determine whether those are the words mentioned
7 in the B/C/S.
8 Thank you. You may proceed, Madam Vidovic.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 Q. Witness, I hope you were able to read this document while we were
11 having this discussion. Do you have any idea what these letters "DR" at
12 the bottom of the document mean?
13 A. Yes, I've read the document. These are the initials of the
14 assistant commander for security in the 3rd Corps, Dugalic, Ramiz.
15 Q. You can see the date here, 10 June 1993. That's below the text.
16 Tell us, please, how would you comment on this document? Does this
17 correspond to what you knew about the events at the time?
18 A. I learned about this event a bit later, because I was cut off in
19 the Krpeljici village, and this was the time when we were just beginning
20 to be able to move around. But this does correspond to what was
21 happening at the time.
22 Q. All right. Now, tell me, was the Brigade Command informed of the
23 outcome of the investigation? My understanding was that Commander Sipic
24 had ordered an investigation. As the command, did you get any feedback,
25 and what was it?
1 A. Yes. We did get information about this at the first meeting of
2 the Command following the event, this was on the 15th of June, 1993, when
3 the assistant commander for security, Mr. Delalic, informed the commander
4 that the result of the investigation showed the following: That a group
5 of armed and masked individuals, whose identity the military police of
6 the 306th Brigade was unable to determine, intercepted the military
7 police of the 306th Mountain Brigade while they were escorting this
8 column of Croatian people towards the village of Mehurici; and under
9 threat of arms, even pointing or putting the muzzle of the weapon into
10 the mouth of one policeman, took away a number of Croats from them.
11 And, at this time, because of all the disinformation that we
12 mentioned earlier, and mention was made of a huge number of people, tens
13 of people killed in different areas, we could not find out anything more
14 in any detail. I think that he learned at the time what the number of
15 people concerned was. I can't quite tell you now, but I think about 20.
16 Q. Was it established, according to what you know, who the
17 perpetrators were or not?
18 A. No. We really wanted to establish this, both the police and the
19 Security Service, but also other services of the brigade. Because this
20 was addressed to us, this was at our expense because it had happened in
21 our area of responsibility. All of these services really wanted to
22 establish the truth. I know this because we sent policemen, who had been
23 intercepted. We sent them to try and identify, among these -- from among
24 these armed groups, to identify the people by observing those areas where
25 they moved -- through which they're moved. However, we were never able
1 to find out the exact information.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just want to ask this question before this part
3 of the evidence disappears.
4 You said, sir, at line 20 of page 38: "Yes. We did get
5 information about this at the first meeting of the Command following the
7 Now, my question to you is: Who did you get this information
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the first meeting of a part of
10 the Command, the assistant commander for security, Asim Delalic, informed
11 on this.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, do I understand you to say that the military
13 police of the 306th Brigade, from whom these people were taken, made no
14 report on the day the event took place?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I don't know when they
16 drafted their report; but the brigade commander and I, the chief of staff
17 and the assistant for finance, we met and we discussed this separately,
18 separate from the other parts of the unit, so that we didn't know of this
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know whether the military police of the
21 306th Brigade, from whom these people were taken, ever made a report at
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: When was that report made?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 15th of June, the assistant
1 commander for security informed, in other words, the commander, the
2 brigade commander, ordered him to sent a report to the 3rd Corps.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Listen to the question. Did the military police
4 of the 306th Brigade make a report about this incident to your Command?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could not have any insight into
6 what the military police was doing. The assistant commander for security
7 reported on their activities.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not asking you about the security police. If
9 you know about the military police making a report, tell us that you
10 know, because you said you do know a little earlier. If you don't know,
11 say you don't know. Please, we want short answers here.
12 My question is such that, you can say "yes" or "no," you don't
13 know whether the military police made a report at all about this
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. You may proceed, Madam Vidovic.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Let me just ask you a bit more, so that we clarify this.
19 Did you know the way the brigade functioned?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. Did you know who was the superior to the military police, so whom
22 did the military police report to?
23 A. Yes, to the assistant commander for security.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Neuner.
25 MR. NEUNER: I'm just seeing so far the two questions, they are
1 not dangerous, as such, but they are again phrased in a leading way.
2 Maybe my colleague can just ask, "Who was the superior," and so on and so
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I really should be a
5 magician to phrase my questions this way. I have to specify which part
6 of the brigade I'm talking about. I'm talking about the military police,
7 and I have to ask who their superior was. I don't see any other way that
8 I could phrase this question, and I really would appreciate -- I do
9 understand that the Prosecutor is doing his job, but also we have a
10 limited time for this -- for this questioning. We are just wasting time
11 with these objections. I really feel that the last two objections are
12 absolutely ungrounded.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: We're going to deal with this last one objection,
14 not the two.
15 The question is allowed.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Please, I just don't remember what you responded. I asked you to
18 whom the military police submits a report.
19 A. Yes. I answered the assistant commander for security; and in
20 this case, that was Mr. Delalic.
21 Q. What you testified -- actually, who did you find out from about
22 these events?
23 A. I found this information out also from the assistant commander
24 for security, Mr. Delalic.
25 Q. Thank you. I would like to ask you the following: What were the
1 results of the investigation, in terms of the perpetrators? Was it known
2 to whom, or to which unit, they belonged, more or less?
3 A. No, I explained this earlier. They were -- they belonged to the
4 foreign forces, but we don't know which unit it was.
5 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a question.
6 The military police belonging to your unit, was this military
7 police obligated to report to their higher body, but by according to the
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. In this case, this was
10 actually the assistant commander for security who submitted the report to
11 his superior; and his superior, actually with this document that we are
12 looking at on the screen, was asking him precisely to do that.
13 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Mr. Husic, do you know if at a later stage there was an
16 investigation conducted into these events?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. And why don't you know?
19 A. Well, this is not in my purview. We had other duties.
20 Q. Thank you. I would now like to move to a different topic. I'm
21 going to ask you about some events from 1995.
22 When you provided your particulars for the transcript, you said
23 that you worked in the morale sector of the 3rd Corps Command. Do you
24 remember from when you performed these duties?
25 A. Yes. I came to this post in late February or early March of
1 1994, to this section for morale, propaganda, and religious affairs. At
2 the time, I was deputy to the assistant commander. Later, I became
3 assistant commander in the 3rd Corps.
4 Q. Can you please briefly describe exactly what your area of work
6 A. Our work, in the morale section, is quite broad. First of all,
7 it was our duty to act politically and to explain the platform and the
8 objectives of our fight. Each soldier had to have an explanation that
9 the objective of our struggle was a united, unified, and indivisible
11 We also needed to inform fighters about all the events, gather
12 information that had to do with combat readiness in units. And if
13 anything needed to be done in that respect, and to affirm our struggle in
14 such a way, that we would explain that the International Community would
15 be on the side of that army that would adhere to all international laws
16 and the Geneva Conventions, and which had the backing and support of the
17 people, which does not sew and disseminate fear, or does not destroy,
18 burn, or in any other way destroy and violate these general principles
19 that were put before us.
20 We acted on duties to inform, to combat hostile propaganda, the
21 welfare of the families, the care of fighters after wounding, and we
22 carried out many other duties, too.
23 Q. And in that sense, were you receiving instructions or orders from
24 the Supreme Command Staff?
25 A. Yes, regularly, always, both instructions and orders. We had
1 training sessions and seminars pursuant to plans that they drafted.
2 Q. Thank you. A little bit earlier, speaking about the range of
3 your duties, you said that you also dealt with the question of fighters
4 who were killed, but I actually want to ask you something else.
5 What was the position of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina
6 leadership in terms of enemy soldiers? So I'm not talking about the
7 soldiers of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I'd like you to focus on
8 the position of the Supreme Command Staff and the command of your corps,
9 in terms of enemy soldiers.
10 A. It was clear right from the start that fighting for a united,
11 indivisible Bosnia-Herzegovina and its three peoples implied winning over
12 the people. By sowing fear and hatred and killings, this could not be
13 achieved. So, in order to stimulate the soldiers to kill as few enemy
14 soldiers as possible, we, at the time -- actually, we gave 25 monthly
15 soldiers' salaries for each captured enemy soldier in order to motivate
16 the fighters, whenever they had the opportunity, instead of killing, to
17 capture enemy fighters, so that in that way we would be different from
18 those forces who were destroying and blowing apart Bosnia and
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: You gave them 25 what? The transcript is not
22 quite clear.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We gave them the amount in marks,
24 which was the currency in Bosnia and Herzegovina at the time, amounting
25 to the sum of 25 soldiers' monthly salaries.
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. For what?
3 A. For each captured enemy soldier.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Twenty-five soldiers' monthly salaries. You gave
5 that to who, to the whole unit, or to share, or to one person, one
6 soldier who captured?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Each individual who captured an
8 enemy soldier, pursuant to an order of the commander --
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: No.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. They would receive --
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: They received the salary of twenty-five soldiers.
12 A very rich army.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The standard in Bosnia and
14 Herzegovina at the time was very low. Our salaries were just 4 marks.
15 But for each captured soldier, the person who captured the soldier, I'm
16 talking about captured enemy soldiers, that person who captured the enemy
17 soldier would receive 100 marks.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Okay. We understand you better now. Thank you.
20 Now we would like you to look at Exhibit [as interpreted] D1002,
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, while we're
23 waiting for the document to appear, this is a document of the 3rd Corps
24 Command, dated the 10th of July, 1995.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Madam Vidovic. I'm sorry to do this. The
1 transcript says "Exhibit D1002." Is it a document or an exhibit?
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] "D", Your Honour. This not an
3 exhibit. I don't know if I said "Exhibit."
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The transcript says so.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.
6 Q. Witness, I would like you to look at this document and to tell us
7 if you recognise this document.
8 A. Yes. This is a document from the commander's office, from the
9 General Staff. We passed it down to our subordinate units from the
10 3rd Corps, and this document was sent out via my section.
11 Q. Now I would like to ask you --
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at the bottom of the
13 document, please. Can we scroll down to see the entire document, both in
14 English -- in the English, actually, it's page 2. It's the next page.
15 Q. What I want to ask you is this: Can you briefly explain the
16 principle of passing down documents? What happens to a document? How
17 does a document reach you, and then what happens after that with it? How
18 is it disseminated further, if it is disseminated?
19 A. If we're talking about a document of the superior command, we
20 would receive this document with a packet communication. We would look
21 at it; and if it was a document for subordinate units, we would then
22 place or mark it as something that should be delivered to all units or
23 dispatched to all units. Then we would send it to the office, where all
24 the documents were typed and disseminated further.
25 The documents that were being drafted for the superior command,
1 after they would be processed and completed, we would also send to the
2 office; and, sometimes, it was enough just to place an arrow facing down
3 to indicate that it was going to subordinate, lower-ranking unit, or an
4 arrow facing up, indicating that it was going to the superior command, so
5 that you did not have to write down each time on the document something
6 that was known or implied.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Who authored this document?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document came from the
9 Supreme Command Staff, so I cannot know who authored it.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: It says, "Halid Husic." I just wanted to be
11 sure --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am the one who dispatched it
13 further. I am not the person who drafted the document. I just
14 dispatched or forwarded the document. I don't know who wrote it in the
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: This "Halid" here refers to you. Actually, it's
17 "Halid Husic," and it should have been "Halim Husic."
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's all I wanted to know. Thank you.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to go back to the
21 contents of the document.
22 Q. Can you please tell us what this document is seeking or
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we go back to the previous page
25 on the English -- in the English version.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With this document, the State
2 Commission for the Exchange of Prisoners, through the General Staff, was
3 asking all the units of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and
4 Herzegovina to -- or asking that all the captured enemy soldiers are not
5 killed, and that as soon as the information or the particulars of the
6 captured soldiers should be sent to them as soon as, because this service
7 for the exchange of prisoners of war needed to have this information.
8 This was something that we worked on intensively.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. We would like to ask you to read this first dashed paragraph.
11 I'm actually going to quote. It says that The commands of all corps of
12 the RBiH Army and the commands of all their subordinated units be advised
13 to capture members of the enemy formations in all situations when the
14 lives and health of the members of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and
15 Herzegovina are not jeopardised. Then the members of these formations
16 are listed.
17 A. Well, this fit within the general objectives of our fight, and
18 this is something that we discussed and intensely worked on.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document be
20 given an exhibit number.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
22 please be given an exhibit number.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become Exhibit
24 number 1205.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
1 And, Madam Vidovic, while I'm on the floor, minus questions by
2 the Chamber and other people, the four hours of Defence have about five
3 to seven minutes remaining.
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't have too many
5 questions left, but I don't believe I will be able to cover all of them
6 in five to seven minutes. But I will do my best to finish as soon as
7 possible. I will definitely keep that in mind.
8 Well, I don't remember now if we did get an exhibit number for
9 this document. Okay. Very well.
10 Maybe we can show the witness now the Exhibit 1047. For the
11 transcript, this is a document of the morale sector of the 3rd Corps,
12 dated the 25th of July, 1995.
13 Q. First of all, Witness, do you see this document, and do you
14 recognise it?
15 A. Yes. I see this is a document that I forwarded, and this is my
16 signature on the document.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Can we please zoom in
18 on the bottom part of the document. In the English version, I think that
19 this is on the following page.
20 Your Honours, I would like the witness now to look at the
21 initials here. In the electronic version, you cannot really see them
22 that easily, so I would like the witness very quickly to be shown the
23 hard copy of the document.
24 Q. Witness, please, can you look at the initials on the document?
25 I'm going to ask you something about that a little later. Can you see if
1 this document is signed or not?
2 A. It's not signed, and the initials are "MM." It's Mustafa Music,
3 who was the clerk in the Supreme Command Staff, Morale Department.
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 3 in the
5 English, please.
6 Your Honours, I have just asked for this to be shown. It's
7 page 3 of the English version. Can you please scroll up? All right.
8 Very well. This is good.
9 Q. You mentioned Mr. Mustafa Music. Witness, I don't know if this
10 was recorded in the transcript. Yes, it was.
11 You said that this document is not signed. Do you know why that
12 is so?
13 A. This is not the customary method of work of the Morale
14 Department, that the commander should be signing this document. These
15 documents are usually signed by the assistant commander. In this
16 particular case, that is not the case. We have the commander in the
17 signature, but it doesn't actually have a signature, and it's a little
18 bit unusual in that sense.
19 Q. Let me ask you this, Mr. Husic: In case this was an encoded
20 document, would you be able to see who actually signed the document?
21 A. No, you wouldn't.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you very well.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Was this document encoded?
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, actually, I wouldn't
25 say that it was encoded. I don't see that it was encoded.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Can we scroll down the
3 document so that the Trial Chamber can look at this.
4 Can we go back to the first page of the document, please. You
5 can look at the English version, the top part of the document, where we
6 could see if there are any indications that the document was encoded.
7 Can we also look at the top part of the Bosnian version.
8 Is that the entire document that you can see? Thank you.
9 There are no such markings, so, Your Honour, this document can be
11 Q. And, Mr. Husic, I would like to ask you -- I have some questions,
12 I don't have much time, about the July action in Vozuca in 1995. Did you
13 play any role in this action?
14 A. No. At this time, I was at the Orahovo IKM, and I was with
15 the -- en route with the forces of the 3rd Corps towards Sarajevo.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness now please be shown
17 document D863.
18 You can see that this is a document from 23rd August 1995, signed
19 by Mufti Effendi Halil Mehtic. I would like to ask you is this: What
20 was the relationship between the Effendi Halil Mehtic in 1993 up until
21 the end of the war, if any [as interpreted]?
22 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber what a mufti is?
25 A. A mufti is a clerical duty, a duty of a cleric that would be
1 equivalent to a bishop in the Catholic Church.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could you please -- can I just goat
3 back to the transcript. I think my question was omitted. Now I can see
4 it, yes, I think it has been.
5 Your Honour, give me just a moment, please.
6 My question that did not clearly -- that was not clearly written
7 down in the transcript was: Was there any kind of relationship between
8 the mufti, Mehtic, Halil Mehtic, and the corps?
9 THE WITNESS: No, except the relationships that the corps had
10 with any other institution, the civilian authorities, the clerk
11 authorities, with respect to those services that were provided by those
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 Q. Could you now explain to the Trial Chamber what the title of
15 "Mufti" exactly means?
16 A. In the Islamic community, the mufti is equivalent to a bishop in
17 the Christian or Catholic Church for a certain area.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is "Effendi" a name of a person or is it also a
20 title in the Muslim religion?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] it is a title.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is its equivalent in the Catholic Church?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A cleric, a priest, any religious
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: So it is acceptable, in the --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The honourable reverend.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it acceptable, in the Muslim religion, to call
3 a person "Mufti Effendi" or "Effendi Mufti," so-and-so?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The order of these titles has its
5 own logic, in the same manner that in the civilian life, professors and
6 doctors are addressed with certain titles. The Halil Effendi Mufti
7 Mehtic means "the honourable mufti", and if we add his duty, then we know
8 this is an official cleric.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: And his duty would be mufti?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes. I have a question, too.
13 Witness, please, you said that the civilian authorities would
14 provide services to the military institutions. Could you give us some
15 details on this and tell us what services were provided to the military
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Civilian authorities would provide
18 arms and logistic support to the army. Cultural institutions would help
19 in organizing entertainment and cultural events in the army. Religious
20 institutions and persons would help in organizing the religious life
21 within units.
22 But this document that we see before us has nothing to do with
23 that. This is something completely different.
24 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I was not referring
25 to this document. It's just after an answer that you gave us. About
1 what you said, there is another thing I would like to know. I would like
2 to know whether the local civilian institutions also provided premises
3 where units could be billeted, for example.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Mr. Husic, let's just go back to the content of this document.
8 Looking at it, it would appear that the mufti is issuing a certificate
9 that a member belonged to the armija and, as such, was killed at the
10 Vozuca battlefield. Could you give a comment on the document?
11 A. Yes. All army members -- for all army members, the command --
12 the garrison command would issue certificates, but only in those cases
13 where someone who may have been a foreigner and not a member of the Army
14 of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
15 For those persons, we did not issue certificates. They were
16 issued by some other institutions; and, in this case, it was by the
17 mufti. The fact that he mentioned there that someone was a member of
18 something, that's his problem, because was he a member -- had he been a
19 member of the army, he would not have been issued a certificate by the
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 Your Honour, could we please have a number assigned for this
23 document. This is, again, a document that was entered through the Bar
24 Table, so I just want to make sure that it doesn't receive two numbers.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Mr. Husic, I would just briefly like to dwell on the Farz action,
3 and I hope the Prosecutor will not say that this is a leading question.
4 Did you participate in any activities related to the Farz action
5 on the Vozuca battlefield in 19 -- in September 1995?
6 A. Yes. As part of the 3rd Corps Command, I participated actively
7 in the preparation and carrying out of the Operation Farz.
8 Q. You said "preparations." Could you please describe briefly what
9 you mean?
10 A. I mean preparations and planning for combat activities, which
11 means that in all segments, in my case the segment dealing with combat
12 morale, a plan should be drafted for morale support for this action,
13 which implied the implementation in all units that were participating in
14 this operation, and support in implementing it and controlling it.
15 Q. Could you tell us, in these preparations for an action, was
16 there -- did anything deal with the conduct of combatants with their
17 handling of war prisoners?
18 A. Yes. We again, before every action, which was the case every
19 time, we would again carry out morale preparations. We insisted, what we
20 could see earlier through some of the documents, that they should refrain
21 from killing, that they should capture enemy combatants, and so forth.
22 Q. Do you recall, did you personally participate in combat
23 activities within the Farz OPERATION?
24 A. Yes. On the first day of the combat operation, we entered the
25 combat operation zone, and the assistant commander for operations and
1 planning --
2 MR. NEUNER: I just want to put it on the record, the last two
3 questions were again leading. The witness has already answered, so I
4 didn't stand up at the first one, and this one is the same.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may respond.
6 I really don't know how to phrase my questions except to ask the
7 witness if he had participated in these combat actions. Perhaps my
8 colleague can assist me. How would I phrase this question on the
9 witness's participation and involvement on this operation?
10 MR. NEUNER: Just you may wish to ask, "How were you
11 participating in Operation Farz, which you mentioned," and then the
12 witness goes on; or, "In your morale section, what were you doing in
13 order to participate in Operation Farz?"
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness described
15 what he did. What the Prosecutor suggested just now, how I should phrase
16 my question, that would, indeed, be a leading question. All I asked was
17 whether he participated in the Farz operation, and the witness replied.
18 So I really think we're just wasting time on these objections.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, I guess the Prosecutor's question is, "What
20 were you doing," not, "Were you doing A, B, C, D?" Your question was,
21 "Did you personally participate in combat activities?" That's the basis
22 of his objection. He starts his question with a, "What, what were you
23 doing?" You sort of suggested he was participating in combat operations.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. But that's the
25 only fact that I mentioned there in order to elicit a response that
1 really have to do with some other questions that I feel are important.
2 Perhaps I could have gone about this in such a way as to lose some
3 five minutes or so.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. As I indicated the other
5 day, if we do it correctly the first time, then we gain time. If you do
6 it incorrectly, then your learned friend keeps standing up and we lose
7 more time.
8 Shall we take a break at this stage and come back at quarter to
10 Court adjourned.
11 --- Recess taken at 5.17 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. We discussed the Farz action, and I would like to ask you the
16 following: Where were you, if you can recall, on the 10th of September,
18 A. Yes. I was at the command post of the 35th Division, at the
19 place called "Babylon."
20 Q. Thank you. And how long did you stay in these areas where the
21 combat activities were going on?
22 A. I only entered the area of the combat activities during the day,
23 and I stayed there for about four to five hours.
24 Q. I was referring to days. I wanted to know how many days you
25 stayed in that area?
1 A. In that area, I remained a bit longer, but I was not within the
2 zone of the combat activities. In that zone, I spent only one day.
3 Q. All right. I want to ask you the following: During these combat
4 activities, within the Farz operation or after it, did you get any
5 information about some war prisoners, prisoners of war?
6 A. No. Among other things, because the morale section, by its
7 function during the combat activities, have nothing to do with the
8 prisoners of war.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: What day was it when you were in the zone of
10 activity, this one day you say you were in the zone of activity?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was on the 10th of September,
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: You said, on the 10th of September, you were at
14 the IKM of the 35th Division in Babylon.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is the place, Babylon.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that where the activity was?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A few kilometres before this place
18 was where the combat activities were being carried out.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.
21 Q. During these combat activities, did you communicate, did you have
22 contact with Fadil Hasanagic, the division commander?
23 A. From the Corps Command, Mr. Ribo and I were at his command post
24 also before the combat activities began and also on the day when the
25 combat activities actually started. We were together at his command
2 Q. And do you remember the next day and the day after; do you
3 remember where you were then?
4 A. Yes. Because we had a number of wounded and killed soldiers, we,
5 from the section for morale, went to the hospital to visit the wounded
6 soldiers in order to and also to make arrangements for the burial of
7 those who were killed in action.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Could the witness now
9 be shown Exhibit 411. This is a document from the Morale Administration,
10 dated 24 September 1995, and entitled: "Report on a visit of the Army of
11 Bosnia and Herzegovina units which participated in the most recent
12 battles for liberation by the ARBiH General Staff commander, Army
13 General Rasim Delic."
14 I would like to ask you this: Have you ever seen this document?
15 THE WITNESS: No.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, I'll repeat myself. Could we please see
19 the English version showing the content of the document, please.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can you see it now, Your Honour?
21 Your Honour, for now, I only read the title of the document, and
22 you can see it in the English version. I would now like to ask for the
23 next page of the document to be shown. That is page 2 in the Bosnian
24 version and page 3 of the English version. Page 2 of the Bosnian
1 Q. Mr. Husic, would you please look at item 7 of this document. I
2 will quote it, and I think we will gain time that way. So item 7 of this
3 document says the following:
4 "Through the cooperation of the Army of RBiH Corps, coordinated
5 and successfully orchestrated by the ARBiH General Staff, the operation
6 has shown the strength and lethal capacity of the Army of RBiH in
7 general, including its ability to carry out the largest possible
9 What I would like to ask you is this: Is this document correct
10 in this segment?
11 A. No. No one from the General Staff, during the operation but also
12 during the planning phase of the action, while we were working at the
13 command post in Zenica, operated or participated in these activities.
14 Q. I see. And can you tell me, who commanded, as far as you know,
15 in these operations, in these actions, if you know?
16 A. The commanders of the 3rd Corps, Mr. Mahmuljin; and the commander
17 of the 2nd Corps, Mr. Delic.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last word?
19 The interpreter did not hear him.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The witness is requested to repeat the last word.
21 He was not heard.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 2nd Corps was commanded by
23 the commander of the 2nd Corps, Mr. Saed Delic.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Mr. Husic, I would now like to ask you something quite different.
2 We've seen a number of documents which showed that documents were
3 forwarded to the El Mudjahedin Detachment. I would like to ask you this:
4 While you were at the head of the morale section, did the El Mudjahedin
5 Detachment forward any report to you relating to morale?
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner.
7 MR. NEUNER: This is again a leading question. It suggests to
8 say, "Yes." My learned colleague is asking very precisely whether the
9 El Mujahedin unit did certain things. So far, the witness has not talked
10 about the El Mujahedin Detachment forwarding a report. It's already a
11 very specific question.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I've been saying this
14 before as well. I'm just trying to save time, and I will rephrase it.
15 It will get me to my answer faster.
16 Q. Witness, can you please describe to me the reporting relationship
17 between the El Mudjahedin Detachment and your morale section, if there
18 was anything like that?
19 A. From the beginning to the end of my stay in the 3rd Corps, we
20 never received a single report from the El Mudjahedin Detachment. We
21 didn't even know who was the person in the unit in charge of morale.
22 They didn't inform us about that, either.
23 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to talk about the measures to -- or
24 incentives for soldiers. How were these incentives suggested? Who made
25 these proposals?
1 A. The incentives [as interpreted] were sent from the lower units up
2 to the higher commands. We would make a list and a selection, then to
3 finally decide on the list of those who would actually receive these
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like us to
6 look at Exhibit 111 now, please.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me just understand the last answer before we
8 go to this exhibit.
9 The answer says: "The incentives were sent from the lower units
10 up to the higher commands." So the lower units were advising the higher
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Proposals.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: That makes a difference. Proposals of people who
14 were to receive incentives were sent from the lower command to the higher
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The proposal of the units who, from
17 their collective, has excelled and would deserve to receive this
18 incentive. These proposals came up from the lower units, then higher
19 commands would make a selection. They would reduce the number until they
20 reached the final list of those who would actually receive the
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Can you please now look at this document.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, this is a
1 nomination for commendations and incentives from the 3rd Corps Command,
2 dated the 10th of November, 1995.
3 Q. Can you please look at the first page of this document.
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] So, after we look at the first
5 page, can we please look at page 6 in the Bosnian version, and this is
6 page 7 in the English version. We need to look at the signature line.
7 Q. Is this document signed?
8 A. No. This is a draft version, and it's not signed.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now go back to page 2 of the
10 document, both in the Bosnian and in the English.
11 Q. Can you please look at this. Do you recognise anything here?
12 A. Yes. This is exactly what I was talking about. This is the
13 draft of the document, so you see added in hand that someone is being
14 transferred from one incentive category to another. Some names are added
15 by hand, which actually indicates what I was talking about, that this is
16 a draft version of the document. The final document had a much smaller
17 number of incentives, because the units would usually exaggerate and the
18 higher commands would reduce this number.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just wish to add
20 that this document was tendered by the Prosecutor, and these additions by
21 hand are something that you do not have in the English version. We just
22 have in one place where it is written "Effendi Mahmut Karalic." This was
23 translated, but these arrows and some other markings are not indicated.
24 Q. Is that correct, Witness?
25 A. Yes. This document was not sent out like this, because some
1 names were removed, some were changed in terms of the type of incentives,
2 and some other things.
3 Q. In principle, were these large documents or smaller, shorter
4 documents that you would send to the Supreme Command?
5 A. Well, it would be an enormous document in the draft version, but
6 then the final version would be a document of only a few pages of text.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 We can put this document away.
9 I would now like you to look at Exhibit 1134, please.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me. I'm sorry, Mr. Registrar. Can you
11 keep the previous document just one second more on the screen, because it
12 suddenly caught my attention that there are a few names of people here
13 who are being proposed for a prize or whatever it is from the Mujahedin,
14 if you look at number 30 and 31 and 32.
15 My question for the witness, therefore, would be: How would that
16 come about? There would have to be some sort of cooperation and
17 reporting from the El Mujahid Detachment to the 3rd Corps for you to be
18 able or for the 3rd Corps to be able to produce a list that would include
19 promotions or appraisals for members of the El Mujahid Detachment. So
20 how was that carried out in practice?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this case, the proposals came
22 through the units to which they were resubordinated in a given situation.
23 So the 35th Division sent this particular proposal. They put the
24 proposal to the 35th Division. The 35th Division put the proposal to the
25 corps. Then it was further reduced at the corps, which then sent it to
1 the higher command, in turn, to the General Staff.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: If I understand this correctly, then, there would
3 have been some sort of communication or contact between the 35th Division
4 and the El Mujahid Detachment, would there not?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. In other situations, also,
6 when it suited them, they would establish contact, but we, as superior
7 commands, would regularly do everything for them that we did for the
8 other units, in the sense that we would send them all kinds of documents,
9 attempting to place them under control, to turn them into soldiers, and
10 other activities.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me just understand.
13 Do I understand you to be saying that there were occasions when
14 the 3rd Corps would jump the 35th Division and communicate directly to
15 the El Mudjahedin Detachment?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: So then I don't understand your last answer.
18 You're saying:
19 "In other situations, also, when it suited them, they would
20 establish contact, but we, as superior commands, would regularly do
21 everything for them that we did for the other units, in the sense that we
22 would send them all kinds of documents, attempting to place them under
24 I would expect those documents would come from the 3rd Corps to
25 the 35th Division and the 35th Division would pass them on."
1 Now, you're saying, no, there was no such direct communication.
2 How, then, do you explain your previous answer?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] when this unit, and this time when
4 these incentives were being proposed, so when this unit was part of the
5 35th --
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not talking about that, the incentives. I'm
7 talking about - let me just hold it before it goes - I'm talking about
8 these occasions when you'd regularly do everything for them that you did
9 for other units, in the sense that you would send them all kinds of
11 That's what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about the
12 incentives. How do you explain that answer, if you say you never
13 communicated directly with them?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. We did send it to them
15 directly, all materials, but we did not receive return reports back from
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: My question is: Which of these two versions must
18 the Chamber accept? I asked you a question a couple of minutes ago, "Did
19 you send them communication directly," and you said, "No." Now you say,
20 yes, you did send them. Now, which one must we accept?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Lease, there were times when they
22 were not subordinated to the 35th Division and they were directly under
23 the control of the 3rd Corps. That's when we directly communicated with
24 them. And when they were in the 35th Division, then we would communicate
25 with them via the 35th Division.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then I think, you see, you can't conflate those
2 two situations into one answer. You've got to clarify that, when you did
3 communicate directly with them, it was when they were not resubordinated
4 to the 35th Division. You can't want to throw in the 35th Division when
5 it suits you, and then when it doesn't, say, no, they communicated with
6 them directly, without explaining that that would happen at a time when
7 they were not so subordinated to the 35th Division.
8 Proceed, Madam Vidovic.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
10 I would like the witness now to look at Exhibit 1134, please.
11 For the transcript, this is a document of the 23rd of December, 1995.
12 It's a document of the General Staff of the Army of the Republic of
13 Bosnia and Herzegovina.
14 Q. I would like to draw your attention, Witness, to the introductory
15 part of the document, which states - can you please look at the opening
16 paragraph of the document - that the order is pursuant to an order by the
17 3rd Corps commander of the 23rd of December, 1995.
18 I would like to ask you to tell us everything that you know about
19 this proposal, if you know anything, and to explain the context in which
20 the proposal came about, if you know?
21 A. This proposal did not go through the regular procedure, through
22 the morale organ or the personnel organ, as it would in the regular
23 procedure. The date of the document, when the commander of the 3rd Corps
24 is directly proposing something, and his secretary, because her initials
25 are here, did work on this document, all of that indicates that this is a
1 time period when we were undertaking activities to abolish the El Mujahid
2 Detachment in order to get on the good side of its members who were
3 opposed to this position of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and
5 Among other things, they -- these incentives were granted, and
6 this was done in an extraordinary procedure in the period immediately
7 prior to the Dayton Accords, when it was necessary to disband this unit.
8 Q. Can you please tell us -- you said that you wanted to get on the
9 good side of the unit. Why was this necessary?
10 A. Yes. At the time when they found out that the unit was going to
11 be disbanded, they openly said that they would oppose such an order, that
12 they would continue the war. I know when the 3rd Corps commander at one
13 time told a few of them that, in that case, they could just do that only
14 disobeying him and his entire units.
15 The 3rd Corps commander was a very tactful man. He knew that
16 they enjoyed support among the people. War was about to end imminently,
17 and we were faced with the danger of a completely new conflict breaking
18 out between the units of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and this
19 unit, which would probably be backed by a considerable number of the
20 citizens from that area. The unit would be backed.
21 Q. Thank you. I would like to put one more question to you.
22 In the Morale Department of the 3rd Corps during the war, did you
23 ever receive an order -- did you ever find out, rather, that the
24 El Mudjahedin Detachment had committed any criminal act, yes or no? Did
25 you receive such information?
1 A. No.
2 MR. NEUNER: Sorry. The witness has already answered. The
3 Prosecution believes that this was, again, a leading question.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that it's
6 not a leading question. I asked did he or did he not, the witness or his
7 department, ever receive information about criminal activities. I don't
8 see how else I could put this question to the witness without losing ten
9 or 15 minutes of time.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question is allowed.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Just one more time. I don't know, Witness, if you heard what I
13 asked you.
14 A. I heard the question, and I already answered it. No, we never
16 Q. Did you have information of any kind about the negative attitude
17 of this unit towards prisoners of war or towards civilians?
18 A. No. We did not have information like that at all. No
19 information indicated or even intimated such events.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
21 Your Honours, the Defence has no further questions for this
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
24 Mr. Neuner.
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Neuner:
1 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
2 A. Good afternoon.
3 Q. My name is Matthias Neuner. I'm appearing here on behalf of the
4 Prosecution. I'm going to put a couple of questions to you; and if you
5 don't understand certain questions, please ask me to rephrase them, and I
6 will try to do so.
7 First of all, I wanted to talk about the 306th Mountain Brigade.
8 Do you agree with me that the 306th Mountain Brigade was no manoeuvre
9 unit during the war?
10 A. Yes, it was not a manoeuvre unit.
11 Q. This brigade had its own area of responsibility, and the soldiers
12 on duty stayed within the area of responsibility of the 306th Brigade?
13 A. I cannot answer this question because I don't understand the
14 contents of the meaning of the term "area of responsibility." I'm not a
15 professional soldier, so I don't know.
16 Q. Do you agree with me that the area of responsibility or the
17 territory covered by the 306th Brigade was a part of the Bila Valley
18 during the war?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And soldiers of the 306th Brigade used to be on the front lines
21 in this territory covered by the 306th Brigade?
22 A. Occasionally, yes, but not all the time.
23 Q. If soldiers of the 306th Brigade were on duty, they did not
24 travel outside the Bila Valley for certain combat activities?
25 A. No, not on Vlasic or the Bila Valley. The 306th Mountain Brigade
1 was at an elevation of 1.800 metres, and they held their lines there
2 permanently, facing the aggressor.
3 Q. Is it fair to say that the 306th Brigade was a
4 territorially-based unit?
5 A. I cannot answer this question. I don't know what it means,
6 actually, that it was a territorial unit.
7 Q. I will withdraw the question.
8 The 1st Battalion of the 306th Mountain Brigade was stationed in
9 Mehurici; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Who was the commander of the 1st Battalion in June 1993 of the
12 306th Mountain Brigade?
13 A. Yes. I think that Mirzet Ljubenovic was the commander at the
15 Q. And who was the commander of the 4th Battalion of the 306th
16 Mountain Brigade in June of 1994 -- excuse me, 1993? I misspoke.
17 A. I think that the commanders of the 4th Battalion replaced one
18 another frequently, so it's hard for me to say who was the commander at
19 that time. I'm not sure.
20 Q. Can you tell me where the 4th Battalion was based of the 306th
21 Mountain Brigade?
22 A. The 4th Battalion was based -- or rather, its command post was on
23 the premises of the elementary school in the Visnjevo village, and the
24 fighters were billeted in private homes when they were not on duty. They
25 were in their own homes, staying with their own families.
1 Q. And these fighters were coming from the villages of Dub,
2 Suhi Dol, Orahovo, Visnjevo, and Jezerci; correct?
3 A. Yes. No, not Jezerci. I apologise. Visnjevo, Dub, Suhi Dol,
4 Orahovo, yes.
5 Q. I want to come to your testimony about your position as assistant
6 commander for morale. I understand you became the assistant commander
7 for morale in the 306th Brigade in March 1993, yes?
8 A. Before the establishment of the 306th, I was the assistant
9 commander for morale, and we, as the command, we established the 306th
11 Q. I was asking whether in March 1993 you assumed that post in the
12 306th Brigade?
13 A. As assistant commander for morale in the 306th Mountain Brigade,
14 I was appointed in ...
15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure of the month.
16 THE WITNESS: ... 1993; and together with other members of the
17 command, I worked on the establishment of the brigade.
18 MR. NEUNER:
19 Q. Could you repeat again the month you were appointed, please, for
20 the interpreter?
21 A. November 1992.
22 Q. In the first half -- or throughout 1993, who was your superior in
23 the Morale Department in OG Bosanska Krajina?
24 A. First of all, we were not -- throughout this period, we were not
25 part of the Bosanska Krajina Operations Group.
1 Secondly, the assistant commander's name in the Bosanska Krajina
2 Operations Group, the assistant commander for morale, I cannot really
3 recall now, because we - and you can see that from the documents as
4 well - we were subordinated to them for a very brief period, or rather,
5 while we were subordinated, we were not -- we were not able to
6 communicate with them because all the contacts had been broken.
7 Q. I now remember that you testified and you were shown a couple of
8 documents from OG West. Did you have a superior in OG West; and if so,
9 what was his name, in 1993?
10 A. Yes. And in the Operations Group West, there was someone who was
11 an assistant -- his assistant; but we never had any physical contact,
12 because the seat of this operations group was very far away and the
13 communication was never possible. I don't know.
14 Q. Did you have a superior in the 3rd Corps section for morale in
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What was the name?
18 A. His name was Professor Dr. Faik Uzunovic.
19 Q. And within the 306th Brigade Morale Service, how many
20 subordinates did you have?
21 A. In the Brigade Command itself, there were five of us,
22 occasionally six or seven, depending on what time we're talking about.
23 Each battalion had two, and the company had one person for morale. We
24 called them "the morale people."
25 Q. Could you tell me, throughout your testimony you mentioned that
1 certain persons had contact with the Mujahedin, were there some members
2 in the morale section of the 306th Brigade who had such contacts?
3 A. No, not as far as I know, because their relationship towards me
4 and my relationship with them was rather tense, so that at the time when
5 we were establishing the brigade, even the private contacts that we had
6 in the beginning were now not so good.
7 Q. You told us yesterday that, initially, the Mujahedin had asked
8 you to work at one of their schools. Could you tell me, who asked you?
9 A. No. I did not say this yesterday. The Mujahedin were billeted
10 at the elementary school in Mehurici on orders of the civilian
11 authorities of the Travnik Municipality; and via the civilian
12 structures --
13 Q. Sorry. I wasn't asking you for the reason why they were based at
14 the Mehurici school. I was just interested in who at the time had asked
15 you or approached you and asked you to work at their school.
16 A. The Mujahedin, one of them whose name was Abdullah, he was in
17 charge of education. He came to my house and asked that I and my wife
18 work for them or with them in their school.
19 Q. And where was Abdullah living at the time?
20 A. He was in Mehurici, in the school building.
21 Q. And you were asked to work in which school?
22 A. They organised in every village in private houses. They would
23 lease one room, and they would call it the school. They organised -- in
24 these rooms, they organised training, instruction, and one such room was
25 also in my uncle's house.
1 Q. Could you tell me, when were you approached, approximately?
2 A. This was - I cannot pinpoint it exactly - late in the autumn of
3 1992; October, perhaps November.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Neuner, could you elicit from the witness
5 whether the witness responded positively to the request from the
6 Abdullah? Was any arrangement ever made? Did the MD rent a room in the
7 witness's house?
8 MR. NEUNER:
9 Q. Could you please try to answer the Judge's question? What
10 response -- sorry. What response did you give the -- did you give
12 A. I declined this invitation, or rather, I made it conditional on
13 the premise that we would work based on the literature that was at the
14 time used in Bosnia and Herzegovina. They did not accept this, and this
15 is why I did not accept their offer, their invitation.
16 Q. And could you tell me, where was the house of your relative where
17 they rented a room, the Mujahedin?
18 A. It was very close to the house where my parents used to live in
19 the past. This was in Dub village. But at this time, it was abandoned,
20 the house, because my parents at this time lived in Han Bila.
21 Q. And Dub is in the Bila Valley, a village a little bit above
23 A. Yes, to the northwest some five, six, perhaps ten kilometres from
24 Han Bila.
25 Q. You testified about the presence of the Mujahedin in Mehurici
1 school. Could you tell me, when did the Mujahedin first move into
2 Mehurici school?
3 A. I do not know exactly, because, at this time, I was not in Bosnia
4 and Herzegovina. They arrived there before me, and I talked about this
5 earlier. And when the incident occurred, when my relative called me and
6 asked me to protect the school's property, this was at the end of May or
7 beginning the June in 1992.
8 Q. So you're telling us that the Mujahedin had moved into the school
9 already before May 1992; is that correct?
10 A. No, not before May. That was not possible. I arrived there at
11 the end of May. They had arrived there a little before me. But this was
12 in May 1992.
13 Q. And you also, testified at some point in time, the Mujahedin
14 moved out of the school to Poljanice. When, approximately, did the
15 Mujahedin leave the Mehurici school?
16 A. I don't know exactly, but around the time of new year 1992-1993,
17 because for the needs of the brigade, we have the need to billet the
18 battalion, we billeted the battalion there, and they were -- they clashed
19 with them, so they left the school.
20 Q. And yesterday, and this is page 61 and 62 of the transcript, you
21 said: "I did not personally go to Poljanice and communicate, but some
22 people that they tolerated better or respected more, we would send such
23 people to their unit."
24 My question I'm having is: Could you tell me who, in the
25 306th Brigade, made the decision to send somebody to the -- to Poljanice
1 to talk to the Mujahedin?
2 A. No one from the brigade made that decision; but, rather, through
3 the civilian authorities and the local clerics, we tried, on several
4 occasions, to draw their attention to some things that were happening in
5 our area of responsibility.
6 The problem was this: The officers of the 306th Brigade were not
7 officers that they accepted as someone to talk to. They were afraid of
8 us, and they considered that we were spying on them.
9 Q. So you're saying that no member of the 306th Brigade talked to
10 the Mujahedin?
11 A. Not in that way. So no one was sent before the brigade, because
12 there was a number of people who later left our unit, to join them; and,
13 of course, they couldn't go there before -- without having previously
14 communicated with them.
15 Q. But people who stayed within the 306th Brigade, were they talking
16 to the Mujahedin in Poljanice?
17 A. Officially, no, in this period of time. Whether someone did, and
18 I also had done so before, but when they stopped communicating with me,
19 then I wasn't able to do it anymore. But, officially, from the Command,
20 we could not communicate with them.
21 Q. When did official communications by members of the 306th Brigade
22 with the Mujahedin start?
23 A. Never. I do not understand the question.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness replied.
1 However, at no point, until now, did the witness mention that there were
2 any official communications between the 306th Brigade and the Mujahedin,
3 and there is no foundation for this question.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, if you look at page 77, line 24,
5 the witness answers: "Officially, no, in this period of time."
6 Now, for me, reading that sentence, it leaves me with the
7 impression that, in another period of time, there was such official
8 contact, so I would then want to know what time was that. And if that
9 impression is wrong, then the witness can say, "No, you misunderstood my
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]
12 MR. NEUNER:
13 Q. I understood it the same way, and I understood from you that
14 there was no official communication with the Mujahedin at all by the
15 306th Brigade.
16 A. Yes, that's what I meant.
17 Q. Are you referring to 1993 -- sorry, 1992 and 1993, or you're
18 referring to the entire war?
19 A. Both 1992 and 1993. But toward the end of 1993, I left the 306th
20 Brigade, and I cannot know about the period after that.
21 Q. Is it correct that in 1993, in the Bila Valley, there were a
22 couple of different units, military units?
23 A. [No interpretation]
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic. Sorry, sorry, sir.
25 Madam Vidovic.
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if we can -- if this
2 question can be more specific, because it's very general. What units did
3 he mean, the BH Army, the HVO? What did he mean?
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner.
5 MR. NEUNER: I was referring to units fighting on the side of the
6 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's better.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] between the 306th and other units.
9 MR. NEUNER:
10 Q. Next to the 306th, there was also the 312th Brigade, is that
11 correct, in the Bila Valley?
12 A. No. The 312th Brigade was in Travnik. Several individuals from
13 the Bila Valley were members of that 312th Brigade from Travnik.
14 Q. There were also -- or not "also."
15 There was also the 314th Brigade which had a battalion in the
16 Bila Valley; correct?
17 A. The 314th Brigade had locals from Zagradje, Skomorje --
18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure this is correct,
19 and could the witness repeat the third village.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and the seat of this brigade
21 was in Zenica, and they had to go through the area of responsibility of
22 the 306th Mountain Brigade. So they did not have a seat in the
23 Bila Valley.
24 MR. NEUNER:
25 Q. Could you repeat for the record the locations where the 314th
1 Brigade was located, please, in the Bila Valley?
2 A. The 314th Brigade was not in the Bila Valley, in that sense. The
3 locals from the villages, Gluha Bukovica, Zagradje, Skomorje, with the
4 already mentioned Hadzija Puric went and joined the 314th Brigade. They
5 were born in those villages.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could you spell those names? I realise the
7 transcript is having difficulty trying to get those names. Gluha
8 Bukovica, is that what you said?
9 THE WITNESS: G-L-U-H-A, B-U-K-O-V-I-C-A; Z-A-G-R-A-D-J-E; and
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 MR. NEUNER:
13 Q. And then you referred to Midhat Puric. Is it correct that he was
14 in the 4th Battalion of the 314th Brigade?
15 A. I don't know in which battalion he was, but it is correct that he
16 was in the 314th Brigade.
17 Q. Do you know when he joined that brigade?
18 A. He joined the brigade immediately after -- following the new year
19 day between 1992 and 1993, at the time when we were establishing the
20 306th Brigade.
21 Q. And is it correct that later on he moved to the 27th Mountain
22 Brigade of the 7th Corps of the ARBiH to become an administrative officer
23 for information, propaganda, and education?
24 A. That's impossible. I don't know what you mean, but I know this
25 man. I absolutely don't know what you're talking about. I don't know
1 where he was up to the end of the war, but it's impossible that he was an
2 officer of such an --
3 MR. NEUNER: Maybe for clarification, Exhibit -- sorry,
4 document D974 can be shown. This is a decision on commissions and
5 promotions, while it's being presented, from the 4th of November, 1994.
6 You can see the first page here for a second, and then I wish that we go
7 to the fourth page, please, in English, and in B/C/S to page 3.
8 In the English, it's the fourth person from the top; and in B/C/S
9 it's somewhere in the middle, above the letter "E."
10 Q. Something like the 10th person above the letter is
11 "Midhat Puric." Do you see that?
12 A. I don't -- oh, yes, I see it now. I don't know if there's
13 another person with the same name. However, this is the 7th Corps. I
14 was never there, and I cannot know who was performing which duty or
15 anything like that. But it would be quite incredible for me that
16 Midhat Puric, called "Hadzija," would be carrying out such a duty, but I
17 don't know.
18 Q. Was this father's name Zaim?
19 A. I don't know that. Although he lives in the neighbouring
20 village, I don't know who his father is or his father's name.
21 MR. NEUNER: May the document be marked for identification,
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is marked for identification. May it
24 be given an exhibit number.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the document will become
1 Exhibit 1206, marked for identification.
2 MR. NEUNER:
3 Q. And I understood your testimony to say that at some point in
4 time, in 1993, the Mujahedin formed their own unit. Could you tell me
5 when the unit El Mudjahedin Detachment was approximately formed?
6 A. It will be hard for me to remember the date or the time. It's
7 sometime towards the end or the late second half of 1993, if I recall
8 correctly, or maybe it's much later. I don't know.
9 Q. And can you tell me, the El Mujahid Detachment had no fixed area
10 of responsibility within the Bila Valley; is that right?
11 A. The El Mudjahedin Detachment, after it was formed, was not in the
12 Bila Valley at all. It didn't have an area of responsibility; and very
13 soon after it was established, it was relocated, with the exception of
14 individuals who were individually living in the Bila Valley.
15 Q. What about the village of Orasac, were there some members of the
16 El Mujahedin living?
17 A. This is a much later period, after I went to the 3rd Corps, and
18 all that was happening in the Bila Valley is something I don't know. But
19 as for and Orasac, Guca Gora, and some other locations, we already
20 mentioned Poljanice, a few Arabs were settled there. They were living
21 there. As for which units they belonged to or what they were a part of,
22 I don't know.
23 Q. Could you tell me, the Mujahedin in Mehurici, they were engaging
24 in combat; right?
25 A. I don't know what you're talking about. Which Mujahedin from
1 Mehurici and which fighting, which combat?
2 Q. Sorry. I meant the Mujahedin who moved from Mehurici to
3 Poljanice. I apologise. So the Mujahedin who were based in Poljanice,
4 did they engage in combat in 1993?
5 A. We talked in detail about that yesterday. They did undertake
6 some actions independently, but neither were they a unit, nor did they
7 participate in combat with the 306th Mountain Brigade, and even
8 frequently in danger of us clashing with them.
9 Q. I wasn't asking for the 306th Brigade and the relationship of the
10 Mujahedin to it. Could you tell me - you're saying that the Mujahedin
11 from Poljanice did some actions independently - where did they carry out
12 these actions independently?
13 A. They were not a unit; and among other things, they tried to
14 attack the feature that we talked about yesterday. This is the central
15 feature in the middle of the Bila Valley called "Hrasce 688."
16 Q. This was in June 1993?
17 A. I don't know the date. It wasn't a large action that we would
18 necessarily register in that way, but I know about it because they were
19 attacked from there, so they were also responding or retaliating and
20 attacking back.
21 Q. If you say they were attacked from there, do you wish to say that
22 they were holding a part of the front line where they were attacked?
23 A. No, absolutely no. Yesterday, we talked about how this was a
24 feature from which all the roads in the Bila Valley were being
25 controlled --
1 Q. I understand that, but I'm just trying to follow up on what you
2 said. You said, a moment ago, "They were attacked from there." So where
3 were the Mujahedin located when they were attacked from Hrasce?
4 A. They were attacked as they were moving along the
5 Mehurici-Han Bila road.
6 Q. Do you know how many Mujahedin were moving along that road?
7 A. How would I be able to know that?
8 MR. NEUNER: Could we have document PT1555 shown to the witness.
9 This is referring to another incident, a document from the 21st of
10 September, 1993, entitled: "Information on the situation in the AOR of
11 the 3rd Corps."
12 If we could for a moment go to the last page and look for the
13 signature, please.
14 Q. Whose signature is this?
15 A. Mine.
16 MR. NEUNER: Could we now go back to the first page, please.
17 Q. This is the fourth sentence of your report I'm referring to
19 "After the Ustasha [indiscernible]," it starts, and I read it to
21 "In Grbavica, Sivrino Selo was supposed to share the same fate as
22 the Ahmici. Luckily, the Ustasha did not succeed in that, the 27th
23 Krajiska Brigade intervened in time and taught them a lesson, so that
24 Sivrino Selo was saved, and then the 17th Famous Krajiska Brigade from
25 the direction of Kruscica, together with the El Mujahid Detachment,
1 advanced to Princip. The village of Gacice burnt down completely. From
2 the direction of Krcevine, the 7th Muslim Brigade pushed forward and
3 slowly but gradually advanced below Lubice with the intention to link up
4 with the soldiers of the Krajiska Brigade and to cut the communication
5 towards Busovaca."
6 Can you tell me, from your reporting here, where is Sivrino Selo
7 and where is Kruscica located?
8 THE WITNESS: Sivrino Selo is in the area between Zenica and
9 Vitez, thus in the area of the Vitez Municipality. Kruscica is located
10 between Vitez and Novi Travnik, and I'm not sure whether it's in the Novi
11 Travnik Municipality or the Vitez Municipality.
12 With that, this document went out as information to the
13 subordinate unit. I think you can see from the contents that it was
14 drafted on the basis of information from the media, and I'm trying to
15 inform the fighters who don't have radios, who are in Vlasic Mountain.
16 Well, it's not an official document that's going anywhere.
17 Q. Could you tell me whether the two locations, Krus cica and
18 Sivrino Selo, are not within the 306th Mountain Brigade controlled
19 territory, they are outside the territory held by the 306th Brigade;
21 A. They were very far from the territory controlled by the
22 306th Mountain Brigade.
23 Q. How could you obtain that information?
24 A. I just said that this was information that we got from the media,
25 because at the Commands, we were able to listen to the news and the
1 propaganda. So we would assemble this information and forward it to the
2 fighters who were on combat positions at Mount Vlasic and who did not
3 have the option or the possibility of communication or listening to the
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me understand you, sir. Are you saying you
6 were feeding your subordinates propaganda instead of giving them factual
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. We --
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: You collect information from the radio which you
10 call propaganda, and you pass it on to your subordinates, to your units?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Information from the radio, we
12 would write them down and forward that to our subordinate units.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me quote what you said just now, at line 21 of
14 page 85:
15 "I just said that this was information that we got from the
16 media, because at the Commands, we were able to listen to the news and
17 the propaganda. So we would assemble this information and forward it to
18 the fighters who were on combat positions on Mount Vlasic and who did not
19 have the option or possibility of communication or listening to the
21 Now, you're collecting information from the radio, including
22 propaganda, and you pass it on to your units. This is what you were
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We sent information from the media
25 to our units. What was the truth and what was propaganda is something
1 that I don't know.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't agree that the
4 witness mentioned the word "propaganda" at all in his answer in this
5 context, and now he has clarified it.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: It would have been preferable, Madam Vidovic, if
7 you had objected at the time he was being translated, and you would have
8 told us that the witness did not use the word "propaganda." To raise it
9 at this stage, when he is now being confront with this question, is of no
11 You may proceed. I am done with my questions.
12 MR. NEUNER: I note the time. I would have one more question,
13 and then would ask for the document be admitted, if this is permitted.
14 Q. We can see here that you're using the term "El Mudjahedin
15 Detachment," and we see the document has a stamp from the 21st of
16 September [Realtime transcript read in error "December"] 1993.
17 Can I assume that, by that time, the El Mudjahedin Detachment was
19 Sorry. I was referring to 21 "September" 1993. The transcript
20 says "December."
21 A. You've seen that this term "El Mujahid" functions - or the
22 Mujahedin - already from 1992, so I'm not sure whether it was formed
23 before or after this date.
24 MR. NEUNER: Can I ask that the document be admitted.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
1 please be given an exhibit number --
2 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Excuse me. Excuse me.
3 Witness, please, in 1992, we had the word "Mujahedin" and
4 "Mujahid," or "El Mudjahedin Detachment." Did we have the word "Mujahid"
5 or did we have "El Mudjahedin Detachment"?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The official name of the
7 detachment, after it was established, was "El Mujahedin." But much
8 earlier, before it was formed, there was a large number of different
9 terms which were used for the same group.
10 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, but this is not what I
11 asked. Please, let me give you the context.
12 The Prosecutor asked you whether at that time, at that very date
13 in September 1993, the El Mujahid or El Mujahedin, or whatever
14 detachment, had already been established, given that in this document,
15 which dates back to September 1993, there is a reference - you actually
16 refer to this, to these words, and you answered by saying, "Well, this
17 word 'Mujahid,' 'Mujahedin' had already been used as early as 1992. I
18 just wanted to know whether, in 1992, the words "El Mudjahedin
19 Detachment" was used.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
21 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: May this document please be given an exhibit
23 number. It has been admitted.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document will become
25 Exhibit 1207.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
2 That brings us to the end of today's session, sir. We are still
3 not done with you. You will please have to come back tomorrow.
4 Let's just adjourn while you are here so that you know the time.
5 The Court adjourns to tomorrow morning at 9.00 in Courtroom I. I guess
6 everybody agreed to that change.
7 Okay. 9.00 in the morning, Courtroom I, sir.
8 Court adjourned.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.07 p.m.,
10 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 13th day of
11 March, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.