1 Thursday, 27 March 2008.
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.31 p.m.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Good afternoon. Madam Registrar, would you
7 please be so kind as to call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon Your Honours, good afternoon
9 everybody in the courtroom. This is IT-04-83-T, the Prosecutor versus
10 Rasim Delic.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much. And since I do not see any
12 new faces today in the courtroom, I think we can skip the normal
13 introduction of appearances. So I will on that note proceed directly to
14 welcoming everybody this afternoon and especially to you, Mr. Karavelic,
15 and I have to remind you that you are still under oath and also that
16 there is a severe punishment for giving false testimony or incorrect
18 Madam Vidovic, I believe that you are just about to finish your
19 examination in chief. You have 10 or 15 minutes left, if I consult with
20 the registrar. I should be informed.
21 Mr. Wood.
22 MR. WOOD: Before that, Your Honour, I would note that instead of
23 three judges there are only two today and I was wondering if you could
24 maybe put that on the record that we're sitting under Rule 15 bis.
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Certainly. I was just coming to that. As you
1 can see, Judge Moloto is away for the day and so we are sitting this
2 afternoon pursuant to Rule 15 bis.
3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: The registrar informs me, Madam Vidovic, that you
5 have only used five hours and three minutes which leaves you with another
6 57 minutes of examination in chief. I'm sorry for that mistake.
7 Any other matters to raise before we can start? That is not the
8 case. The floor is yours, Madam Vidovic.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I believe
10 I will conclude my examination even before that, as I said yesterday.
11 WITNESS: VAHID KARAVELIC [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 Examination by Ms. Vidovic: [Continued]
14 Q. Good afternoon, General Karavelic. I hope you've rested well and
15 that we will conclude this questioning relatively soon. I'd like to show
16 the witness Exhibit 1292, please.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't know whether
18 the problem I have is shared by everyone in the courtroom. I don't see
19 the document in front of me. I see the transcript.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: I apologise, Madam Vidovic, there is, it appears,
21 a technical problem.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Please proceed.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. General Karavelic, do you see the document in front of you? It
1 should bear the date of the 20th of September, 1995.
2 A. I do.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please go to page 2 in
5 B/C/S and the third page in the English version. Could we please see the
6 bottom of the document. Thank you.
7 Q. General, my question is this: We see the initials KV. Are these
8 your initials and do you recognise this document?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you draft the document? Did you author it?
11 A. I did that together with General Enver Hadzihasanovic.
12 Q. Thank you. Let us go back to page 1 of the document now.
13 I wish to remind you that in your testimony yesterday, you said
14 you saw General Delic upon his return from abroad in Zagreb. Do you
15 remember having said that?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. Can you tell us what this document is about?
18 A. This document is about an agreement between the top military
19 figures in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia. In Zagreb, in the presence of
20 certain representatives of the International Community, there were
21 meetings and talks held on joint operations and joint use of forces
22 between the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Croatian Defence Council and
23 the Croatian army in order to liberate western Bosnia.
24 Q. Thank you. I wanted to ask you the following: Who was present
25 at those talks on behalf of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
1 A. As you can see from the document, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic was
2 there, president of the Presidency, as well as the Supreme Commander and
3 Mr. Delic as the commander of the general staff.
4 Q. The date is 20 September, 1995. Do you remember how long did the
5 military talks last with the military authorities of the Republic of
6 Croatia, if you know anything about it?
7 A. I think there were two meetings. One was political, the other
8 one was military.
9 Q. As regards this date, the 20th of September, 1995, what was the
10 duration of the talks?
11 A. If I remember correctly, a few days.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please
14 assign an exhibit number to this document or rather it is an exhibit.
15 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a very short question for
16 the witness.
17 Sir, how is it that the document was not signed directly by the
18 commander, Mr. Delic.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because he was attending another
20 more important task. He wasn't present.
21 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, but at the meeting, he was
22 present, right? We have the report from the meeting and he was present,
23 you say. So in the English version, could the correction be made in
24 saying that the document was signed for Mr. Delic?
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for your
1 correction. We will do that.
2 Let us clarify something concerning Her Honour's question.
3 Q. You spoke of the meeting that was held in Zagreb?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What was referred to here is a document from Kakanj in
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. When you say he wasn't present, what did you want to say?
9 A. That he was either in Zagreb or on a business trip or somewhere
11 Q. What did you mean that he wasn't there?
12 A. He wasn't in Kakanj.
13 Q. Thank you. After this meeting, where did you go, if you
15 A. I cannot tell you specifically or precisely as to what followed
16 this meeting, but I too went to Zagreb in the course of the next few days
17 in order to work on many military details that needed to be elaborated.
18 Later on, I was busy implementing the order we have before us.
19 Q. Concerning the implementation of the order, did you go anywhere?
20 A. I went to Novi Travnik, my task was to organise a command post
22 Q. Did combat activities follow?
23 A. Certainly.
24 Q. When exactly?
25 A. I don't know exactly, but the combat activities began in late
1 September or early October.
2 Q. What year?
3 A. 1995, sorry.
4 Q. Thank you. What was the area that the combat activities took
5 place in?
6 A. Looking from the central part of Bosnia from the feature of
7 Vlasic, it was to the north and to the south in the direction of
8 Mrkonjic Grad, Jajce and Banja Luka. On the other side from the Bihac
9 enclave, that is from the western side, there were combat activities from
10 the River Sava in Bosanska Krupa all the way up to Bosanski Petrovac and
11 Drvar. Combat activities developed towards the east, towards Kljuc,
12 Sanski Most, Prijedor, and Banja Luka. From the south, combat was moving
13 upwards from Livno and Glamoc towards Mrkonjic Grad and Mount Manjaca and
14 further on to Banja Luka. It was a very large semicircle.
15 Q. Thank you for your thorough explanation. In the period that you
16 mentioned, and you said it was late September and early October, were you
17 visited by any military or political figures in the area of combat?
18 MR. WOOD: Objection, Your Honour, that's a leading question and
19 it would suggest the answer.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes, Mr. Wood.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] May I respond? I don't think this
22 is a leading question. It is correct that one can answer with a yes or
23 no to this question; however, it doesn't mean that such questions are
24 always leading. This one cannot be leading because I asked him whether
25 any military or political figures visited. The question in itself does
1 not imply either or both of those groups. I don't see how this would be
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Well, I guess you could have asked whether they
4 received any visits but be that as it may, I will allow you to continue
5 with the question.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. It would
7 not have been specific enough. The witness might believe I was asking
8 him about some journalists visiting or such.
9 Q. In any case, Witness, did you understand my question? Can you
10 provide us an answer?
11 A. Yes, I don't remember seeing any senior political figures such as
12 Mr. Izetbegovic at that moment. He did come at a later stage though, but
13 there were many visits by officers of the General Staff including the
14 commander, General Delic.
15 Q. Do you remember when?
16 A. That is difficult for me to tell you a date, but it was in
18 Q. Thank you. I have a few brief questions on this topic. Do you
19 know how the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina was ended?
20 A. By the signing of the Dayton Peace Accords.
21 Q. Were there any peace talks preceding the signing of the
23 A. Certainly.
24 Q. Did the General Staff and its commander play a role in the talks?
25 A. Yes, a very large one. The commander of the General Staff played
1 a role in the preparation of all elements needed to our political
2 delegation to participate at the peace talks in Dayton.
3 Q. To clarify another thing we discussed yesterday, in your
4 yesterday's testimony, and now I go back to 1993, you mentioned
5 communication means and packet communication, if you remember?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You said that corps commanders had such communication with the
8 General Staff at the time. How did the system work as regards the corps?
9 Did you have such communication at your disposal with your subordinate
10 units, can you explain briefly?
11 A. Packet communication --
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Wood.
13 MR. WOOD: I rise just because I object on the grounds that this
14 is a compound question. When he gives his answer, it might not be clear
15 which answer he's -- the question he's actually answering. If
16 Madam Vidovic wants to put two questions to him, it would be best in
17 terms of the record if she puts those separately rather than in the space
18 of one question.
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Mr. Wood. If you can lead your
20 witness through those two questions separately, it would be helpful.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to thank my colleague,
23 Mr. Wood, for this.
24 Q. General, can you explain if you had packet communications with
25 your subordinate units?
1 A. Packet communications were available only to the General Staff
2 when communicating with corps commands, with air defence and
3 anti-aircraft defence, because it's the most expensive and the most
4 complex system of communication. It requires computers, it requires
5 optical visibility, a number of repeaters as well for all that to
6 function. This is all very expensive and in the first years, we did not
7 have any at all. We received our first resources of that kind somewhere
8 in 1993, enough for the corps to have it.
9 Now, communications were completely different from the corps
10 down. There were no packet communications there and these communications
11 are of vital importance between the corps and the divisions, divisions
12 and brigades, brigades towards battalions, battalions towards companies,
13 companies towards squads. There are 7 or 8 levels. The lower down you
14 go in the chain, the greater number of devices you must have and packet
15 communications were much too expensive for that.
16 We had even brigades and even battalions without any
17 communication devices at all.
18 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you a few brief questions more. In the
19 course of June 1993, were you involved in any combat activities in
20 Central Bosnia such as the Lasva Valley?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did you have any contact with the Mujahedin?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did you in any way whatsoever participate in the process of
25 dealing with the Mujahedin problem in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
1 A. No.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no
3 further questions.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thanks, because you just put your last question
5 to the witness to which I may have a follow-up so I might as well put it
7 My question was related to something that you told us a couple of
8 days ago about your participation in a Council for Protection of the
9 Constitutional Order. And if I'm not mistaken, you told us that you had
10 frequently attended these meetings and that I think the events that
11 brought these meetings up in this courtroom were the events that led to
12 the fall of Caco and Celo, the commanders of the 9th and 10th Brigade and
13 I think you told us that you were present at the council meeting for that
14 purpose on that particular day.
15 My question would be: Was the issue of the -- of possible
16 disciplinary actions against the insubordination of the Mujahedin ever
17 raised in that council, the Council for Protection of the Constitutional
18 Order or the commission? I'm not sure about which is the correct
19 expression but do you know what I'm talking about? So my question is:
20 In that body, did you ever discuss ways in which to handle the Mujahedin?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That body is called Council for the
22 Protection of the Constitutional Order of Bosnia-Herzegovina. That
23 council was headed by the Serb member of the Presidency of The Republic
24 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mr. Mirko Pejanovic. I cannot tell you exactly
25 how many times but at least twice I attended their meetings and I do not
1 recall that we ever touched upon that subject.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. Judge Lattanzi has a question.
3 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I only have one question.
4 Witness, you've talked in detail yesterday about problems that the
5 1st Corps was experiencing in terms of control and you were the commander
6 of that corps. I would like to know if you ever found out that some
7 problems with regard to command and control also occurred in the
8 3rd Corps.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really cannot tell you anything
10 specific except that occasionally I heard some stories, hearsay.
11 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Very well. You talked about
12 some stories, hearsay, did you ever hear, through this hearsay, that
13 Commander Delic or General Delic, if you will, or that the Presidency as
14 a whole or the presidents of the Presidency ever took any measures to
15 take care of these issues with regard to the 3rd Corps.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, it's difficult to say
17 anything precise because all the communications towards the 3rd Corps
18 were totally independent of me, bypassed me completely; I was not
19 involved in that communication. And all the meetings, especially in the
20 first three years of the war, only took place in Sarajevo. I have
21 knowledge that certain measures had been taken but it's very difficult
22 for me to say which measures, to what extent.
23 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Were there any meetings of corps
24 commanders where questions were debated with regard to the problems that
25 all corps commanders had?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in the second half of 1994,
2 and in 1995, we did sometimes have meetings among corps commanders,
3 usually without the commander of the 5th Corps.
4 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So the commander of the
5 3rd Corps was there, if I understand correctly.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I don't know how many though,
7 maybe two meetings.
8 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] That commander never told you of
9 any problems that occurred while they were commanding or while they were
10 giving orders. Did they tell you about problems that they had in terms
11 of getting obeyed by the subordinate units? It's just a question.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Really, no. I don't see why he
13 would share his problems with me. I did not share mine with him.
14 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So what was discussed during
15 those meetings if not of -- did you discuss common problems that all
16 corps commanders had?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Corps commanders would brief others
18 about the overall current political and military situation, each for his
19 own area of responsibility and at the end of these reports, the commander
20 would give a summing up and issue assignments.
21 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] But there were no questions of
22 command and control of subordinate units? Did you never discuss that?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly. Yesterday, we looked at
24 a document from a meeting in Zenica back in September, October 1993. Of
25 course, the answer is yes, it was openly discussed.
1 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And at these meetings, was there
2 ever a question of the fact that the 3rd Corps had problems in terms of
3 having the Mujahedin unit obey them?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, we did. The corps commander
5 would give a briefing, the superior commander would listen, and issue him
6 an assignment. Meanwhile, I think about my own briefing and how to make
7 it better. I was less concerned with problems in the 2nd and in the 5th
8 Corps and the 3rd. I had too many problems of my own to give much
9 thought to how other corps commanders would deal with their own. It was
10 up to General Delic.
11 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Judge.
13 Mr. Wood, are you ready to begin your cross-examination?
14 MR. WOOD: Yes, Mr. President, I am.
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Wood:
16 Q. Good afternoon, General Karavelic. As you might know by now, my
17 name is Mr. Wood, Kyle Wood. I represent the Prosecution and you are an
18 old hand at this, you know that I will be asking questions on behalf of
19 the Prosecution.
20 Now, you've told us, General, that you've testified in four
21 previous trials. And I'll just read the dates of those and you can tell
22 me whether or not this is correct. Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic,
23 that was 17th to 19 July, 2002. Prosecutor versus Hadzihasanovic and
24 Kubura, over a period of 21 to 31 March, 2005. Prosecutor versus
25 Halilovic, 18 to 22 April, 2005. And of course, Prosecutor versus
1 Dragomir Milosevic, 27 to 29 March, 2007. And I will wait for the
2 interpretation to catch up and you can just tell me if any of those dates
3 are wrong.
4 A. I have no chance of confirming yes or no. I know I was there but
5 I certainly don't remember the date. As soon as I did it every time, I
6 forgot about it. This is my eighth time in The Hague.
7 Q. Do those dates sound about right, though?
8 A. I have no reason to doubt what you say.
9 Q. And in each of those trials, as in this trial, you promise to
10 tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth; isn't that right, sir?
11 A. Certainly.
12 Q. And your memory of events was fresher then than it is now; isn't
13 that true? That is to say, memory of events from 1993 to 1995.
14 A. I did not understand the question.
15 Q. Your memory of events from 1993 to 1995 was fresher when you
16 testified in these other trials than it is today.
17 A. That's a question you could argue about. I cannot remember some
18 events even from 1995, but if you show me a document, it jogs my memory,
19 and the same applies to more recent times. Documents are very important,
20 they jog the memory. Many details are forgotten.
21 Q. So you remember more about 1993 to 1995 now in 2008 than you did
22 in 2002, for instance, when you testified in Galic?
23 A. That's not what I said. I'm saying that I can recall many facts
24 even today if I see a document that reminds me of an event or an
25 important fact, but without documents, I have no memory at all. That's
1 what I said.
2 Q. Well, we can move on to some documents, then. You've also given
3 statements to the Prosecutor on three different occasions; is that
4 correct, sir?
5 A. It's closer to 13 than three.
6 Q. Well, I'll focus on just three for the purposes of this
7 examination. Specifically, these have been loaded into e-court so we can
8 show them to you if you want, but you gave statements to the Prosecutor
9 in 2000, 2001, and 2003. Does that sound right?
10 A. I gave statements beginning with 1999, when I returned from the
11 United States, successively until perhaps two years ago when they let me
12 breathe a little. I went to Nedzarici almost every week to give
13 statements. I cannot remember every statement. I gave many of them.
14 Some of them I signed, others I did not.
15 Q. You signed three statements. I can show you those if you like,
16 General. Perhaps that would be best. If we could bring P06280 on the
17 screen and if we could stay on page 1 at first.
18 Now, sir, do you see that on the screen before you?
19 A. I see it.
20 Q. If we could scroll down to the bottom of that page, at least in
21 the English version. And that is your signature at the bottom, isn't it,
23 A. On the English version, yes.
24 Q. Now, if we could see P06281. And if we could please scroll to
25 the bottom of the English version. This is your signature again, isn't
1 it, General Karavelic?
2 A. Yes, it is.
3 Q. And there's just one more. Could we see P06282. And again, this
4 is your signature at the bottom of the English version, isn't it,
5 General Karavelic?
6 A. Probably, but I wonder, is there a signature on the Bosnian
8 Q. Let's move to page 5 of this document, that is page 5 in English,
9 at least. Now, that's your signature again, isn't it, General Karavelic?
10 A. Probably.
11 Q. And if we could scroll up in the English version. Now, what it
12 says there is: "This statement has been read over to me in the Bosnian
13 language and is true to the best of my knowledge and recollection. I
14 have given this statement voluntarily and I am aware that it may be used
15 in legal proceedings before the International Criminal Tribunal for the
16 Prosecution of persons responsible for serious violations of
17 international law in the territory of the former Yugoslavia since 1991.
18 And that I may be called to give evidence in public before the Tribunal."
19 So that was read to you and you signed at the bottom of that;
20 isn't that correct, sir?
21 A. More or less.
22 Q. Okay. Thank you.
23 MR. WOOD: We can put this document away for now, Mr. President.
24 Q. Now, General Karavelic, I want to ask you some questions about
25 your experience as the 1st Corps Commander. Now, it's true, isn't it,
1 that as the Commander of the 1st Corps, you were consumed with the
2 defence of Sarajevo?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. For example, in Prosecutor versus Sefer Halilovic, a question was
5 put to you by the Judges, this was on 22 April, 2005 at page 71, lines 16
6 to 22: "You were very busy for every minute that you were awake trying
7 to defend Sarajevo and also your area of responsibility outside Sarajevo
8 on the other side of the tunnel on Igman; is that correct?" And your
9 answer to that was: "Absolutely." Do you stand by that answer today,
11 A. I really didn't hear the last part of your question very well,
12 the one where Igman was mentioned.
13 Q. I'll repeat it, sir, and again I'm reading straight from the
14 transcript here.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down.
16 MR. WOOD: Yes, I will.
17 Q. The question was put to you by the Trial Chamber: "You were very
18 busy for every minute that you were awake trying to defend Sarajevo and
19 also your area ..."
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Vidovic.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise for
22 interrupting my learned friend but I cannot follow what he's talking
23 about since on his exhibit list, there are three statements that have
24 been shown recently to the witness. But this transcript that he is
25 invoking now is not on the list, therefore I cannot see it, follow it, or
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Wood.
3 MR. WOOD: Well, it's not on the exhibit list, that's true,
4 Your Honour, but this is a public proceeding of the Trial Chamber in
5 Halilovic. There are other cases in which he has testified. I believe
6 it is proper and acceptable to put what the witness has said to him as
7 things that he said in other proceedings before this Tribunal.
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: That is correct, but I also think that parties
9 are under an obligation to inform each other of the documents that they
10 intend to bring up during their examination, either in chief or cross.
11 Please refresh my memory and tell me again which trial you are
12 quoting the witness from.
13 MR. WOOD: This is from the Prosecutor versus Sefer Halilovic, 22
14 April, 2005.
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes, is it possible for you to draw it up on the
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise. On many
18 occasions we ran into situations like this and we always notified the
19 Prosecutor about which statement we will be using, not only to be able to
20 see that part but rather to have the context of things to be able to
21 check what the witness is talking about there, and the context of the
22 statement in general.
23 I cannot accept the Prosecutor putting forth a small passage of a
24 statement that I cannot check. They should have put it on list, that's
25 why they exist. They included the three statements just shown to the
1 witness, but not this one. I see no reason for not doing so. I simply
2 cannot follow what the Prosecutor is saying and I cannot check the
3 context that the witness was referring to.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Madam Vidovic. That was the point
5 that I was trying to make just a while ago is I think that it is most
6 conducive to the speedy and successful evolvement of the proceedings if
7 both parties are informed of the documents that the other party intends
8 to use during the examination.
9 Mr. Wood, do you have an important reason for wanting to bring up
10 this quotation because if not, then I suggest you move ahead.
11 MR. WOOD: The point is, Your Honour, to show that the witness
12 was very, very busy defending the city of Sarajevo. I can quote from
13 another -- one of the statements that is on the Exhibit list,
14 Your Honour.
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Can't you just take his testimony for him to have
16 to prove it? Why don't you just ask that question to the witness, get
17 his answer and then let's move on.
18 MR. WOOD: Yes, Your Honour, I'm interested in speeding the
19 process along as quickly as I can as well. I just wanted to add some
20 context to that, some facts to back that up.
21 With Mr. President's indulgence, I'll ask just a few questions
22 along this line.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes, but I think it's -- I think we should leave
24 the old testimony from Halilovic.
25 MR. WOOD:
1 Q. In your 2001 statement, General Karavelic, P06281 at page 8, you
2 said: "The corps headquarters functioned 24 hours a day, every day."
3 That's true, isn't it?
4 A. Yes, it is.
5 Q. And you said that the corps commander was briefed at 8.00 in the
6 operations room and then again at 8.00 p.m. Isn't that true?
7 A. In the evenings, it would be the corps commander who would
8 usually brief, but in the morning at 8.00, the commander wasn't always
9 there, perhaps the Chief of Staff was but more or less what you said is
11 Q. It's fair to say that you spent every waking moment in your job
12 to defend the city of Sarajevo; isn't that true?
13 A. Generally speaking, one could say so.
14 Q. And this often required you to be outside the city of Sarajevo,
15 isn't that true?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, you had about 70.000 soldiers in the 1st Corps; isn't that
19 A. Even up to 80.000 in 1993.
20 Q. And only about 40.000, 43.000 of those were actually in the city
21 of Sarajevo, the rest were outside the city in your area of
22 responsibility; isn't that true?
23 A. Perhaps a bit less in the city of Sarajevo itself, but around
24 that number, yes.
25 Q. For example, you told us on Tuesday on page 47, line 6 that you
1 were on Mount Igman on 30 July 1993 when you sent what has been marked
2 Exhibit 1247 [Realtime transcript read in error "1427"].
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. WOOD: I see in the transcript that it says Exhibit 1427 what
5 I meant to say is 1247, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
7 MR. WOOD:
8 Q. Now, with these responsibilities, it wasn't part of your regular
9 duties to attend meetings of the General Staff or the SVK, isn't that
11 A. My duty was to attend meetings at the General Staff when summoned
12 [Realtime transcript read in error "someone"] by the commander of the
13 General Staff. As for any and all other meetings held by the commander
14 of the General Staff on other issues, it was up to him who would be
15 present at what meeting.
16 Q. Just so we're clear, sir, until 1995, you were not a part of the
17 General Staff.
18 A. I never was.
19 Q. The 1st Corps headquarters was not in the same building as the
20 Supreme Command staff, isn't that true?
21 A. It is true.
22 Q. And that the 1st Corps headquarters was not in the same building
23 as General Delic's office; that's true?
24 A. That is true.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] While we still have it on the
3 screen, there is something incorrect in the transcript. It is page 21,
4 line 7. Perhaps my learned friend could repeat the question from lines 4
5 and 5. What was discussed is whether the witness was or was not present
6 at the meetings of the General Staff. What we have on the transcript is
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: I don't know. I think it's clear enough. What
9 is the question ...
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, instead of "someone"
11 it should be "summoned." I know what the witness said. He didn't say
12 someone, he said summoned.
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: I think these are the kinds of errors that will
14 be corrected in the review of the transcripts. This is an obvious
15 linguistic thing that everyone can see it's an error and it will be
16 corrected ultimately. Please proceed, Mr. Wood.
17 MR. WOOD: For the record, Mr. President, I believe I heard the
18 witness say "summoned" as well.
19 Q. Now, General Karavelic, as such a busy 1st Corps Commander, you
20 didn't even have daily contact with General Delic; isn't that true?
21 A. Literally speaking, there was no daily contact.
22 Q. And just so we're clear, General, as 1st Corps Commander, you
23 were never a member of the Presidency.
24 A. Of course.
25 Q. And it follows from that that it was never part of your duty to
1 attend Presidency meetings?
2 A. Perhaps on one or two occasions, I wasn't present at Presidency
3 meetings when General Delic was away in 1994 or 1995; however, I'm not
4 certain of it.
5 Q. You weren't present at the Presidency meeting on the 8th of June
6 1993, for example?
7 A. Not then.
8 Q. And you testified that you didn't see General Delic until later
9 that evening so you don't know what he was doing earlier in the day, do
11 A. I don't know what he did on that day but I do know what he was
12 doing before that.
13 Q. And it follows from all of this, General Karavelic, that you did
14 not attend the Presidency sessions in which the question of the 9th and
15 10th Brigades was raised?
16 A. I'm not sure that I was or was not there on one or two occasions
17 on behalf of General Delic, however, I truly cannot confirm that.
18 MR. WOOD: I see Mr. President that it's about 3.30. This is a
19 place where I could make a convenient break.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: All right, because we are 15 minutes shorter
21 today because of the delayed beginning of the hearings so we can either
22 take those 15 minutes now or we can continue for another 15 minutes but
23 that's up to you.
24 MR. WOOD: I would also be happy to continue, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: So if you are ready to continue, let's carry on
1 until 3.45.
2 MR. WOOD: Sure.
3 Q. So it follows from this, General Karavelic, that you don't know
4 firsthand what Rasim Delic said or did during the Presidency discussions
5 relating to Caco and Celo?
6 A. What session do you have in mind, the 8th of June? Are you
7 making the link between that session and Caco and Celo? I'm afraid I
8 don't understand.
9 Q. I'm sorry for that confusion, General. I'll put it to you more
10 simply. You were not present at any Presidency sessions in which the
11 issue of Caco and Celo was raised.
12 A. As I said a moment ago, I believe it might be possible that I
13 attended one or two sessions on behalf of General Delic, however, I'm not
15 Q. Your answer says and I quote, "I attended one or two sessions on
16 behalf of General Delic." That would suggest that when you were present,
17 General Delic was not present; is that true?
18 A. Yes, of course.
19 Q. Now, as to the Presidency, you've told us earlier today that one
20 member of the Presidency was Mirko Pejanovic. Can you tell us who were
21 the other members of the Presidency?
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: I think, Mr. Wood, this is -- and I hope I'm not
23 wrong, I think this is a misrepresentation of what the witness told us.
24 My recollection is that in a Mirko Pejanovic was presiding the Council
25 For Protection of the Constitutional Order, but I may be wrong.
1 MR. WOOD: I can clarify that.
2 Q. Was Mirko Pejanovic a member of the Presidency, sir?
3 A. He was. Mirko Pejanovic was a member of the Presidency of the
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina and also a member of the Supreme Command.
5 Q. If you can recall, sir, who were the other members of the
7 A. In addition to Mirko Pejanovic, on the Serbian side, there was
8 Mrs. Tatjana Ljujic-Mijatovic. On behalf of the Croatian people there
9 was Mr. Kljujic and Komsic. And on behalf of the Bosniaks, there was
10 Alija Izetbegovic, Nijaz Durakovic and Ejup Ganic.
11 Q. It's true, isn't it, sir, that under the constitution,
12 General Delic was also a member of the Presidency during the time of war?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now of those people that you named, sir, including General Delic,
15 which of these people had any military experience or training?
16 A. I don't know. I don't think I can tell you anything about it. I
17 don't know anything about their past as regards that matter.
18 Q. But you do know that General Delic had quite extensive military
19 training, isn't that true?
20 A. Yes, certainly.
21 Q. Now, when you were appointed to the Supreme Command staff, that
22 was in August of 1995, you told us. It's a fact, sir, isn't it, that you
23 were almost immediately sent to Novi Travnik to take up your duties there
24 to prepare the joint combat with the HV, isn't that true?
25 A. What does it mean immediately? I went in September.
1 Q. And before that, you engaged in discussions, high-level
2 discussions with the Croats, that is the Croatian government, in coming
3 up with plans for joint combat; isn't that true?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So even though you were head of operations and planning, you were
6 actually doing a more important task which is discussing things with
7 higher level commands?
8 A. If you mean the commanders from the Republic of Croatia, then the
9 answer is yes. As for the commanders of my army, well, that was
10 something normal.
11 Q. Your function as chief of the division of operations and planning
12 was mostly to coordinate the forces in the 5th and 7th Corps in western
13 Bosnia; isn't that true?
14 A. By virtue of an order, I was appointed to a new temporary duty.
15 That was called command for western Bosnia, and I did what you said.
16 Q. And between the time you were appointed, that is in August 19th,
17 and the time you were sent to Novi Travnik, you didn't really engage in
18 day-to-day, in the job of chief of operations and planning, that is to
19 say, your job was a more important one, discussions with the Croatian
21 A. The operational division or administration on average comprised
22 60 to 70 officers. I headed it. When I was temporarily assigned to the
23 new temporary duty, of course I had the additional task and I was working
24 on it.
25 Q. Now, sir, you spoke a little bit about the 3rd Corps in response
1 to some of the questions from the Judges, specifically today at line 12,
2 page 10, you said you "don't see why the 3rd Corps Commander would share
3 his problems with me. I did not share mine with him."
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So you had no firsthand knowledge of what was happening in the
6 3rd Corps between 1993 and 1995; isn't that true?
7 A. No.
8 Q. And just before the break, I want to ask you a little bit about
9 the documents that we saw yesterday in relation to planning -- I'm sorry,
10 strike that, in relation to training.
11 We saw a number of documents that General Delic had signed
12 mandating certain training, and certain training also took place in 1993,
13 1994, and 1995; isn't that true?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. We also saw on one of the video clips that was played
16 General Delic was speaking, and this is at Exhibit 1330, if we need to
17 pull this up, Exhibit 1330, minute 1:27 to minute 1:56, he said, "We have
18 an increasingly operational army." Isn't that true?
19 A. Should I respond? Sorry.
20 Q. Do you agree with what General Delic said on that tape, sir?
21 A. First of all, I failed to notice yesterday that he said that. If
22 indeed did say that, we start from one single fact. If we take any NATO
23 army as being 100 per cent operational and on the other hand, the army of
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina in early 1992, one might say it was zero per cent
25 operational, we need to know at what exact time General Delic said what
1 he said. If that figure improved by 20 to 30 per cent, then one might
2 say it is true; however, it's still very as far from 100 per cent. This
3 is how I see it.
4 Q. I'll put it to you more plainly. The ABiH did improve over time,
5 didn't it, General Karavelic?
6 A. Certainly.
7 Q. It was a more disciplined and a better army in 1995 than it was
8 in 1993; isn't that true?
9 A. Absolutely so.
10 MR. WOOD: And this would be a convenient time for me to take a
11 break, Your Honour, before I launch into something that will take a
12 little bit more time.
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: That's a good idea. We will break and come back
14 at quarter past 4.00.
15 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes, Mr. Wood, carry on.
18 MR. WOOD: Thank you, Mr. President.
19 Q. Before we move on to the next topic, there is one thing I want to
20 clear up in the record, General Karavelic. There is an answer that
21 wasn't clear. I asked you at page 26, line 1: "You had no firsthand
22 knowledge of what was happening in the 3rd Corps between 1993 and 1995;
23 isn't that true?" And your answer was, "No."
24 So I just want to put it to you plainly, you had no firsthand
25 knowledge of what was happening in the 3rd Corps between 1993 and 1995.
1 A. What does that mean for you, firsthand?
2 Q. Okay. For example, you weren't on the 3rd Corps line of
4 A. No.
5 Q. You weren't being sent combat reports by the 3rd Corps?
6 A. No.
7 Q. You weren't being sent military security reports by the
8 3rd Corps?
9 A. No.
10 Q. So your only knowledge of what was happening in the 3rd Corps was
11 as you said earlier, hearsay, secondhand?
12 A. Something like that.
13 Q. I want to talk a little bit about communications now. You told
14 us on the first day at page 34, line 11 and I'll quote: "Communications
15 with units outside of Sarajevo, any kind of communication was scarce.
16 There was no continuity, there were frequent and long breakdowns and the
17 means of communications were very poor."
18 Now, you also told us that same day at page 35, line 23 and I
19 quote: "I can confirm that the commander of the General Staff had very
20 sparse information about the status of the other corps."
21 Do you remember saying those things, General Karavelic?
22 A. Roughly.
23 Q. Now, you've told us that you were not a member of the
24 General Staff in 1993.
25 A. Right.
1 Q. So you have no firsthand knowledge of what was -- what
2 information was actually reaching General Delic, do you?
3 A. You could put it that way. But I interpret all that based on my
4 experience of my corps.
5 Q. Okay. I'll ask you a little bit about that then. Now, you told
6 us earlier that about 30.000 of your troops were actually outside the
7 city of Sarajevo. That's true, right?
8 A. Yes. I cannot vouch for the exact number, but roughly.
9 Q. In any event, there was a certain number of soldiers that you had
10 to communicate with who were outside the city. That's the main point;
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, we know from your testimony that you had at your disposal
14 packet communication. You told us today, for example, that packet
15 communication were available only to the General Staff when communicating
16 with corps commanders and others.
17 A. Roughly, yes.
18 Q. You also told us on the first day of your testimony that, "Thanks
19 to General Delic, on the 31st of July, 1st of August, I received two
20 units from Central Bosnia." You remember saying that too?
21 A. I recall that.
22 Q. And we can -- we know that you were speaking about Exhibit 1247
23 which was dated the 30th of July, 1993. It would follow from this, sir,
24 wouldn't it, that General Delic did have communication with units in
25 Central Bosnia if he was able to call them and send them to your rescue;
1 isn't that true?
2 A. Well, you put something to me and then you want me to say yes or
3 no, and the answer may be who knows what, if you want a real answer. I
4 don't know if I have the right to speak of assumptions as a witness.
5 What if General Delic had no communications with those units? And as far
6 as those units that came to assist me, I can say with absolute certainty
7 that General Delic had no contact with them whatsoever because they are
8 units too small for General Delic to have anything to do with them.
9 Those were just two companies. What if, at the insistence of the
10 commander, the president of the Presidency called on satellite telephone
11 and then a politician was told somewhere in Zenica or in Travnik and then
12 that politician called somebody at a lower level and all that resulted in
13 the arrival of those two units. You simply say he had communication with
14 those two units. That does not hold water.
15 Q. So there were satellite telephones as well, sir?
16 A. I believe that's the image I have in my mind, that that's
17 something I heard, that the president of the Presidency had one, but I
18 cannot vouch for it.
19 Q. Now, as for you, you had at your disposal communication via
20 courier as well; isn't that true?
21 A. In the city of Sarajevo, yes.
22 Q. Well, you told us, and this was in relation to Exhibit 1247 when
23 you were speaking about sending a message from outside the city of
24 Sarajevo to the General Staff, what you told the Trial Chamber, and this
25 is at page 47, line 17: "That there were two possible ways of sending
1 information, either by packet communications or by courier."
2 When you gave that answer, you knew that you were talking about
3 communication from outside the city of Sarajevo into the city of
4 Sarajevo, didn't you, sir?
5 A. I clarified yesterday how one could cross the runway of the
6 airport until the tunnel was dug. Out of 100 attempts, one was
7 successful. Don't hold me to this number, but I'm telling you this just
8 to illustrate what chances a messenger had in that situation. It was
9 pure lottery, but once in a while he would make it.
10 Whereas the situation on the ground changes from one moment to
11 another. You cannot call that means of communication, but I kind of
12 despair of explaining that to you. A courier, a messenger is the most
13 primitive type of communication today.
14 Q. You had at your disposal, sir, communication via telephone as
15 well; isn't that true?
16 A. In the city of Sarajevo, yes.
17 Q. Well, sir, in your testimony -- I'm sorry, in your statement from
18 2000, this is P06280, when you're speaking about Operation Neretva, and
19 for the benefit of the Trial Chamber, this was an operation in which
20 certain troops that were under the command and control of
21 General Karavelic were sent outside the city of Sarajevo to participate
22 in an operation in the Neretva river valley.
23 You said in your statement, sir, that "During operation Neretva
24 1993, I received one report from Adnan Solakovic by courier and we talked
25 on the telephone." Now, it's plain that he was in the Neretva river
1 valley when you had this conversation with him and that you were in the
2 city of Sarajevo and you spoke with him via telephone. That's true,
3 isn't it?
4 A. As far as I remember, I talked by telephone but I'm not sure with
5 General Halilovic, Sefer Halilovic. And if you recall, since you were
6 involved in the Sefer Halilovic case, there was one letter written in
7 longhand by Adnan Solakovic and I got it that way. And I don't remember
8 talking to Adnan Solakovic and if I did it must have been by radio, open
10 Q. In fact, you spoke to Adnan Solakovic and you also spoke to
11 General Halilovic during the course of Neretva 1993, isn't that true, and
12 that is via radio or telephone?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And it's true that when you spoke with them they were in the
15 Neretva river valley and you were in the city of Sarajevo?
16 A. Correct.
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Wood, I don't want to interfere in your
18 cross-examination but I am curious to see where we are going with this.
19 MR. WOOD: Yes, thank you, Mr. President. This goes to the
20 statement that General Karavelic made about communication between units
21 outside of Sarajevo and units within Sarajevo. He has told us that he
22 has no firsthand knowledge about what information was reaching
23 General Delic. He can only speak of his own experience, of his own
24 experience with communications communicating with troops outside of
25 Sarajevo. These examples that I brought up show that despite what he
1 told us earlier, he did in fact have solid means of communication. He
2 could communicate when he's talking to the Supreme Command by packet
3 communication, he could communicate via radio or telephone and at certain
4 points he could communicate via courier.
5 This shows that -- this completes, I think, the picture of the
6 state of communications between units in Sarajevo where we know
7 General Delic was headquartered and units outside of Sarajevo, for
8 example, where Sefer Halilovic and Adnan Solakovic were in September
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: And just how is that relevant to the indictment?
11 MR. WOOD: We've heard a lot of testimony particularly today,
12 Your Honour, and particularly from this witness about how there was very
13 poor communications between General Delic and his subordinate commands.
14 This - and I don't want to speak for the Defence here - but I believe the
15 Defence theory is that this would tend to affect his ability to command
16 and effectively control his troops.
17 The point of the testimony that I'm eliciting now, Mr. President,
18 is to show that there were means of communication between units inside of
19 Sarajevo where General Delic was most of the time and units outside of
20 Sarajevo through the example of the 1st Corps Commander.
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well. I'm hesitating a bit because I don't
22 think that we have been offered testimony to suggest that there was no
23 communication. We have been offered various sources which would suggest
24 that communication was sometimes difficult which, again, is not
25 surprising during war, but -- well, I leave it to you to carry on but I
1 also urge you to focus on the things that you need to elicit with this
2 witness, from this witness in relation to your indictment.
3 MR. WOOD: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Could I have Exhibit 1331 brought up on the screen, please. And
5 for the record this was an exhibit that was entered into evidence through
6 this witness earlier this week.
7 Q. Now, General Karavelic, you see this on the screen?
8 A. I see it.
9 Q. You saw this earlier this week. I just want to ask you, have you
10 seen this particular document before?
11 A. I'm not sure. Maybe yes, maybe no.
12 Q. Are you familiar with the format of this document?
13 A. What do you mean am I familiar? I don't understand the question.
14 Q. Well, have you seen documents like this before? Documents headed
15 this way, Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Supreme Command Staff Bulletin.
16 A. I think so.
17 Q. Did you see documents like this when you were 1st Corps
19 A. I think so.
20 Q. And how often would you see that?
21 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I am very sorry, you saw it or
22 not? Please try to focus and tell us if you have seen something like
23 that or not.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe yes, maybe no. I received,
25 throughout the war, millions of documents, and you must understand that
1 this is an impossible question. If you want me to say yes just to please
2 someone, I will say yes but I'm trying to speak the truth. If you don't
3 believe me, that's another matter.
4 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I do not recall if this document
5 was already shown to you by the Defence.
6 MR. WOOD: I can confirm that it was, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So let's see what you have to
8 say, in fact, we'll take your answer. Thank you.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I? The Defence
10 did show that document to the witness, but in a completely different
11 context. The Defence focused on the contents, not on these facts and we
12 didn't ask the witness whether he had received the document or not.
13 I just want to make this clear to -- I don't want the witness to
14 seem to be saying something different to what he said yesterday.
15 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Ms. Vidovic.
16 MR. WOOD:
17 Q. General Karavelic, did you receive bulletins of this type during
18 the war, that is between 1993 and 1995?
19 A. I'm not 100 per cent sure, but if I had to choose, I would say
21 MR. WOOD: We can put that document away now, Mr. President.
22 Q. During your direct examination, General Karavelic, you told us a
23 little bit about Operation Trebevic and I want to ask you a little bit
24 more about this. Now, you told us that you were able to neutralise the
25 9th and 10th Brigades which then consisted of around 2.000 to 3.000 men;
1 do you remember saying that?
2 A. I remember that.
3 Q. And you said you had a force of about 4.500 men to accomplish
4 this task; is that correct?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. And it's true that Rasim Delic personally commanded this?
7 A. He commanded together with the Minister of Interior
8 Bakir Alispahic and the team they had with him.
9 Q. It's true also, isn't it, General Karavelic, that an operation
10 like Trebevic is an extraordinary operation for dealing with renegade
11 troops; would that be a correct way of putting it?
12 A. You could put it that way, although the matter is much broader
13 and more complex than what you described.
14 Q. I will get into more specifics then. Now, when an ARBiH
15 commander learns of criminal behaviour on the part of his troops, he has
16 other means at his disposal to discipline them; isn't that true?
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Vidovic.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would the Prosecutor be kind to
19 clarify what he means by "commander of the BiH army because yesterday we
20 mentioned both General Delic in that capacity and the president of the
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Wood.
23 MR. WOOD: I'm speaking generally of any ARBiH commander.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's no such position, commander
25 of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
1 MR. WOOD:
2 Q. Let me put it more simply then. You as 1st Corps Commander, when
3 you learn that your troops are engaging in criminal behaviour, or
4 behaving in disruptive behaviour, in disruptive ways, you can order them
5 to be investigated by competent law enforcement; isn't that true?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You can issue verbal warnings to the troops; isn't that true?
8 A. Yes, you can, whatever.
9 Q. You can even refer them to, if they are serious enough
10 infractions, the military disciplinary court; isn't that true?
11 A. I'm just asking how, when I have no access to these soldiers and
12 these commanders? If they saw me, they would have killed me on the spot.
13 Q. I'm speaking generally, sir. Generally.
14 A. You do speak generally a lot, but sometimes you go into detail,
15 specific detail.
16 Q. All right. We'll speak about the criminality of the 9th and 10th
17 then. Now you knew about their criminal acts; isn't that right?
18 A. That's not correct.
19 Q. I think your testimony was, sir, that there had been requests to
20 the Supreme Command to do something about the 9th and 10th Brigade
21 starting from before you were 1st Corps Commander in May 1993 and that
22 when you became 1st Corps Commander, you also sought leave to deal with
23 the 9th and 10th Mountain Brigades. That's correct, isn't it, sir?
24 A. Yes, correct. But I did that on the basis of certain
25 indications, clues, not on the basis of absolute knowledge that they had
1 committed a crime at that time.
2 Q. Certainly you had notice that they were doing something that was
4 A. You could put it that way.
5 Q. It's safe to say, sir, that you did everything you could to make
6 sure this problem was taken care of, didn't you?
7 A. I think I took the steps that I was required to take in my
8 position and that I was capable of taking in such a difficult, complex
10 Q. And it's true, actually, sir, that you took extraordinary steps,
11 didn't you? You went to the president himself and you told him: If you
12 don't take care of this, I will resign my post as 1st Corps Commander.
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. And you did this because you knew that if these troops continued
15 to commit these crimes in your area of responsibility, that you would be
16 responsible for not taking care of it, didn't you, sir?
17 A. You could put it that way.
18 Q. Now, there's been one issue, sir, that has been running through
19 your testimony here. You told us at page 58, line 1 of Tuesday's
20 transcript that Alija Izetbegovic was undermining the war effort. And
21 you repeated this at page 60, line 19. Do you remember saying that?
22 A. I do remember the question. When one says that he was
23 undermining and you include that in your question, then you receive such
24 an answer as specific as that. I can say that he did and he did not. If
25 the Commander of the 1st Corp as early as May sent a letter requesting
1 that certain brigade commanders be removed, and if the General Staff was
2 acquainted with it, and if Commander General Delic demanded from the
3 president countless times that that should be approved and done, still,
4 it took five to six months. It was only done on the 26th of October,
5 after certain crimes, and after a number of soldiers were killed in the
6 operation. Then my question would be: What was all of that? I would
7 say that it was undermining and was not at the same time.
8 Q. Of course you don't know exactly that General Delic demanded from
9 the president countless times that something should be done. You don't
10 know that, do you, sir?
11 A. I don't know exactly how many times, but I do know that he was
12 requesting it. He was supporting me in my requests, and he would tell me
13 exert pressure on the president and he was doing the same. I'm not
14 merely saying this for the sake of telling you just anything, but that's
15 how things were. It would not have happened had General Delic had a
16 different opinion. It would not have been done without him, even if the
17 president had ordered it.
18 Q. Of course, the topic of this indictment is the El Mujahid
19 Detachment, you know that, sir, don't you?
20 A. I do know of it to a certain extent.
21 Q. And it seems as though maybe the implication, perhaps, is that a
22 comparison was to be drawn, would that be fair to say?
23 A. I don't know what you mean specifically. If you can be more
24 concrete, I can answer.
25 Q. General Karavelic, did Alija Izetbegovic prevent Rasim Delic from
1 taking action against the El Mujahid Detachment, is that what you're
2 trying to tell us?
3 A. My testimony is that he prevented me from dealing with my
4 renegade commanders and soldiers. You can draw a parallel that he may
5 have been doing the same thing with the other issue but I can neither
6 confirm nor deny it. I was outside that story. General Delic is the
7 only person who can tell you.
8 Q. So the crimes and the misdeeds of the 9th and 10th Brigade
9 between May 1993 and October 1993, those are the fault of
10 Alija Izetbegovic because he didn't do anything to crack down on these
12 A. Alija Izetbegovic passed away. I don't want to be so specific in
13 my answer if as early as May, before I became the corps commander, my
14 corps commander kept insisting that such brigade commanders be removed.
15 Then I thought that when Sefer Halilovic was still the head of the army,
16 that he was the obstacle but when Rasim Delic came, I became convinced
17 that we shared the same position, that is, I and my Commander
18 General Delic, however, Izetbegovic still wouldn't do what we were asking
19 for. When we finally confronted him with the information on the crimes
20 that had been committed, and the very same brigade commander used mortars
21 to fire at his own command and Presidency, it was only then that the
22 president consented.
23 If you're asking me, I would say that General Delic had similar
24 problems in his relation to the Mujahedin and in relation to dealing with
1 Q. You're just speculating now, sir, isn't that true? You don't
2 know anything about relations between General Delic and --
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Vidovic.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not included in all that. I
5 was present at certain meetings of commanders --
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, first and foremost,
7 you will recall that a few moments ago, the Prosecutor invited the
8 witness to draw a parallel between what was taking place and whether or
9 not Mr. Izetbegovic prevented General Delic and now when the witness
10 answered, the Prosecutor is saying that he's speculating.
11 Your Honours, really.
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Wood, I am on Madam Vidovic's side in this.
13 MR. WOOD: I'm just trying to get to the heart of exactly of what
14 General Karavelic is trying to suggest and what the Defence is trying to
15 suggest by putting on the evidence of Trebevic 2 which is not actually
16 relevant to the indictment, Your Honour. It's not a crime that's been
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: I'm fully aware of it.
19 I thought your question regarding Mujahedin was quite bold but I
20 think the witness gave a reasonable answer. So take what you can from
21 that and proceed.
22 MR. WOOD: I will, Your Honour. And I think on that note, the
23 Prosecution has no further questions for this witness. Thank you.
24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Vidovic, any redirect?
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, but a few questions.
1 Re-examination by Ms. Vidovic:
2 Q. [Interpretation] First, General Karavelic, to go back to the
3 briefings that you mentioned. Her Honour asked you about whether you
4 were present at the meetings at which corps commanders briefed on the
5 various problems; do you remember that?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. I will ask you about you as the corps commander. What did you
8 inform them during those briefings? What sort of problems and what sort
9 of command levels did you brief on?
10 A. I briefed them on the current combat situation within my area of
11 responsibility, i.e., where my defence lines were stable and weak, where
12 I was expecting the aggressor to attack and so on and so forth. That was
13 number one.
14 Number two, there was another important issue that persisted
15 throughout the war and that was discipline and internal organisation, in
16 other words, the chain of command. The first issue of the briefing
17 depended very much on the second issue, that is the ability to execute a
18 task. This was discussed openly. Given the conditions that we had to
19 wage war under and at the same time we were very transparent in our work,
20 well, I would say that even the most modern armies should envy us on that
21 concerning combat morale and logistics, whether there was food or not,
22 whether there was ammunition or not, where we can get it from, how it
23 should be bought, do we buy it from the aggressor, et cetera, et cetera,
24 et cetera.
25 All those issues are raised, the commander makes conclusions and
1 we set out tasks and then we go about implementing them.
2 Q. The purpose of my question was the following: Was there any
3 discussion of small-scale units the size of platoons or detachments or
4 did you only discuss general problems?
5 A. We discussed various and different units. We saw a document
6 yesterday ordering that certain units be assigned to different corps.
7 There was discussion about indiscipline, et cetera.
8 Q. I only have a few questions concerning the 9th and 10th Brigades
9 or rather, not so much the brigades but the issues of procedure that you
10 used. You were asked by the Prosecutor whether you could initiate an
11 investigation. Is it a duty of a corps commander or of his command
12 whenever they heard of a crime to initiate an investigation?
13 A. Perhaps I could correct you where you say "whenever they heard."
14 I would say that whenever we get by official information that there was
15 serious crimes that had been committed and serious violations of the law,
16 then it was a duty of a corps commander to do so.
17 Q. Yesterday, you said that as the corps commander, you did get by
18 certain indications of crimes committed and you said you reported that as
19 well as Commander Delic did. Did the Presidency ask for any proof or did
20 they just take your word for it?
21 A. They did ask for proof.
22 Q. Did you do anything about it?
23 A. I did. My office began collecting information. It lasted for a
24 while, and perhaps in September or October, we compiled the information
25 and forwarded it and after that, the thing we discussed happened.
1 Lastly, decisions were made to initiate proceedings, and people
2 were charged with war crimes, 30 or 40 of them, and many more were
3 charged with infractions and so on and so forth.
4 Q. Thank you, General. As the corps commander at the time, did you
5 or did you not have to prove that you used proportionate force to the
6 events? When I say proportionate, did you have to convince the
7 Presidency that you used proportionate force?
8 A. I could say yes to that, certainly.
9 Q. When it comes to the use of force, does one always have to prove
10 the proportionality of the force used to the events in the field?
11 A. It has to be proven --
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Wood.
13 MR. WOOD: Mr. President, this is the last in a series of leading
14 questions. This is a redirect, it's not a cross-examination. The
15 questions cannot be leading on redirect. I object on this ground,
16 Your Honour.
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Sustained.
18 Madam Vidovic, please rephrase.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will
20 rephrase my question.
21 Q. In what situations is force used? When?
22 A. I think a day or two, I gave you an answer concerning that
23 question. In cases of serious or large-scale war crimes, or when there
24 is a large number of incidents in which violations of law and regulations
1 Q. What about the evidence concerning those? Were you supposed to
2 present that to the Presidency?
3 A. Yes, of course.
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, I have no
5 further questions.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Madam Vidovic.
7 Judge Lattanzi?
8 Questioned by the Court:
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: I would like to address the matter which was
10 raised by Mr. Wood in his cross-examination because the matter that he
11 brought up is obviously at the heart of this case. I think Mr. Wood
12 suggested the question of why would General Delic and
13 President Izetbegovic go to such extreme measures to bring the 9th and
14 the 10th Brigades in your corps to order if similar steps were not taken
15 to bring other independent and insubordinate groups within the
16 jurisdiction of the ABiH.
17 I'm not sure that you are in a position to provide much evidence
18 to that question, but I would like to ask you if you have an opinion
19 about the reasons that might have been underlying the way in which the
20 9th and the 10th Brigades in your corps were treated differently from
21 other insubordinate parts of the ABiH.
22 Do you understand my question?
23 A. Or rather why President Izetbegovic had not made that decision
24 earlier. I believe that is the gist of your question.
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: I'm sorry, I must have expressed myself badly.
1 I'm asking you if you have an opinion about why steps similar to
2 those which were taken to bring the 9th and the 10th Brigade under
3 control were not taken in respect of other insubordinate groups which we
4 have heard in this trial were posing problems in the 3rd Corps.
5 A. Yes. Your Honour, undertaking the steps such as those taken in
6 Sarajevo itself against the 9th and the 10th Brigade stands as a
7 commander and a senior officer at the time, I was trying to understand on
8 one side the president of the Presidency, since he was the most
9 responsible person for all military and political affairs in relation to
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina and its defence. I'm not trying to defend his
11 position. I said what I said here.
12 However, he did have a significant dilemma before him. On one
13 side, he knew that those commanders and their soldiers were committing
14 serious infractions and even war crimes. On the other hand, given the
15 situation that the city was in, as well as the rest of the country, the
16 support those people enjoyed among the population was one of the key
17 factors. I suppose that President Izetbegovic inter alia waited all that
18 time with his approval for an armed operation against Caco and Celo for
19 the following reasons: Firstly, to have 100 per cent certain arguments
20 to go about doing that. And secondly, to have enough time to politically
21 prepare the context and the situation. He wanted the citizens on his
22 side and for them to be ready to discard of those commanders since they
23 were posing as heros, as the best and most courageous commanders.
24 It was for that reason, I presume, that the president was
25 dragging his feet. He wanted the civilian population on his side so that
1 once the armed force is used, as few as possible civilians would be hurt.
2 We can discuss that part, and this is my opinion. The Mujahedin were a
3 completely different issue. I don't want to go into it right now.
4 However, if you will ask me to, then I will do so.
5 These commanders were there. We knew where they were, their
6 address, their building, their office. We knew where the soldiers
7 supporting them were. It was far easier for me to do it.
8 On top of that, as I said, most of the population was on our side
9 by that time and they agreed with an armed operation aimed at those
10 people. From my channels of information and throughout the war, I knew
11 what the Mujahedin issue was, in particular, in relation to the Mujahedin
12 and Kubura case, they had a lot of population on their side, they
13 provided them with humanitarian assistance, clothes and so on and so
14 forth, and that was their main achievement. That is why they did not see
15 an operation against for such a long time.
16 I am familiar -- I was familiar with the situation to a large
17 extent and given all the information I had, I believe that doing that
18 earlier would have been impossible and they were also very dispersed from
19 Zepce to Bugojno which is a distance of 300 to 400 kilometres and so on
20 and so forth.
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. It seems as if you are saying that
22 some action was taken against the Mujahedin; is that correctly
24 A. I know some of the things I know because I studied documents in
25 preparing an expert report in the Hadzihasanovic and Kubura case, and I
1 can only discuss this issue through the documents I studied at that time.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes, I'm aware of your report in that other case,
3 but my question to you in this case was were you aware of any action
4 which was finally taken to bring the Mujahedin under control by
5 General Delic or by President Izetbegovic?
6 A. Yes, measures were taken.
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Which measures?
8 A. First, as far as I remember one particular document,
9 General Delic ordered the 3rd Corps Commander to disarm, disband, and
10 even expel them. But if you remember my previous answer, that was
11 impossible to do, and then there were other documents about establishing
12 detachments, et cetera, and from all these documents it transpires that
13 General Delic was always of the opinion that the Mujahedin bring only
14 harm and very little -- and are of very little use and that they should
15 be done with.
16 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I would like to know
17 something, but only if you know. From what you've learnt during the
18 conflict, is this something that you knew at the time or what you know
19 now, what you're telling us now, is this something that you found out
20 while you were preparing yourself to testify as an expert witness in the
21 Hadzihasanovic case?
22 A. I know most of what I know from preparing the expert report in
23 Hadzihasanovic, and I also know some things because I was involved in the
24 war from beginning to end.
25 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you. That is something
1 that I had not understood when you answered my question, but thank you
2 very much.
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: General, do you know if General Delic considered
4 to follow-up on his order to disarm the Mujahedin Detachment?
5 A. I assure you as a human being, and as an officer, that he did.
6 It's quite another matter whether he was in a position to, whether he
7 received or could have received an approval from the president of the
8 Presidency, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic to use force or something similar. Of
9 his own accord, he did not have the right to do any such thing.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: What, to your knowledge, could have prevented
11 General Delic from following up on the order that he gave to have the
12 Mujahedin Detachment disarmed and disbanded? I mean I assume that once
13 he had issued that order, he would also be in a position to follow up on
14 it in case no action was taken. And my question to you, therefore, is:
15 Do you know if he considered that? And you're telling me yes, he did.
16 My next question, therefore, is: What prevented him from doing
18 A. In my view, there are several reasons but I'll state only one.
19 I'm deeply convinced that he considered and took those steps, but when
20 the Mujahedin arrived in Bosnia and Herzegovina, they immediately
21 scattered themselves across various villages in Central Bosnia. They
22 were never in one single base or location, unlike our units. They very
23 quickly found wives among the local population, started families. They
24 had all the support of the local population in terms of food and clothing
25 because it was very difficult to survive at that time.
1 Any attempt that General Delic took on his own to disarm them
2 would inevitably have led to loss of life among civilians. He did not
3 have the right to do that without approval from the Supreme Command.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: When you tell us that in General Delic's view,
5 the Mujahedin Detachment was more of a nuisance than they actually did
6 any good, what sort of nuisance are we talking about? Can you give us
7 examples of the irregularities that you are referring to?
8 A. Well, what I'm going to say is my opinion. I wouldn't like to go
9 into it really, but since you ask. There are many reasons, again. Here
10 is one. Those people who came from outside, they started observing their
11 religion in their own way that was particular to them. One part of the
12 local Muslim population accepted that. If a Mujahedin married a local
13 girl, it was almost automatic.
14 On the other hand, I know in Sarajevo, a large portion of the
15 Muslim population was against them. They were saying, "What do we need
16 them for? They only cause problems and they bring confusion in our
17 religion." That was one of the reasons for opposition. There were
18 others, of course. Later, there were rumours that they had committed war
19 crimes and we know very well how we treated war crimes in our army. You
20 have the example of our own men, Caco and Celo.
21 It is therefore my personal opinion that they brought us much
22 more trouble and shame than any benefit. Unfortunately, nobody asked my
23 opinion or General Delic's. I am telling you this as a human being
24 sitting in front of you.
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Fair enough. I'm insisting a bit on this because
1 it is important to our understanding of the facts of this case.
2 You tell us that in reply to my answer about what the problems
3 with the Mujahedin, you tell us that there were two problems, that there
4 were religious problems and should I say cultural or social problems in
5 the communities in which they resided and there were also rumours of war
6 crimes. So these were the two problems that General Delic would have
8 The rumours about war crimes, how were they -- how did you learn
9 about that?
10 A. You see, Your Honour, it took me a long time to get any facts
11 about the war crimes committed by Caco. He started committing them in
12 the end of 1992 and beginning of 1993, whereas I was only able to present
13 what I found out to my superiors in October 1993. Whereas in those areas
14 where they were, unlike those units that were in my area under my
15 command, it's very difficult to prove a war crime. I'm just proceeding
16 from the knowledge that no axis was possible there. Nobody could come
17 close to the Mujahedin.
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: I see. But how did you learn about the war
19 crimes? You told us that there were rumours about war crimes and my
20 question is how did you learn about that?
21 A. Well, I never learned anything for certain. I cannot tell you
22 anything with any certainty now. All I knew was what I saw on television
23 and stories that circulated around town.
24 JUDGE HARHOFF: That's exactly what I was looking for. How did
25 you hear about the rumours of war crimes committed by the Mujahedin
1 fighters? So you just told me now that it was the talk of the town and
2 there was television reports, and did you hear of war crimes from others?
3 A. Officially, no.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Did you discuss these rumours with your fellow
5 corps commanders?
6 A. I cannot say either that I did or that I didn't. I probably did,
7 but that conversation ends in nothing.
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: General, officially or unofficially, what I am
9 curious to know is if the rumours of war crimes committed by the foreign
10 Arab fighters in Bosnia also reached the inner circles of the leadership
11 of the ABiH, that is to say, the corps commanders and the
12 Supreme Command.
13 A. When I talk about this, I primarily mean the end of the war, and
14 the transition period towards peace after the Dayton Accords. In 1993, I
15 never heard anything so it's difficult for me to give a precise answer to
16 that question.
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: I thank you very much. Do any of the parties
18 have any questions arising out of questions from the Bench?
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
20 Further Examination by Ms. Vidovic:
21 Q. [Interpretation] Please, General, can you be more precise? When
22 did you hear those rumours, at the time of the war, after the war?
23 A. I said towards the end of the war at the time when we were
24 already moving towards peace.
25 Q. Did you discuss those rumours with General Delic ever?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Thank you. Now, when you heard rumours about town and stories
3 about the Mujahedin on television, when did these programmes start
4 appearing on television?
5 A. Towards the end of the war. It's difficult to say.
6 Q. These stories, did they concentrate on one specific group or
7 Arabs generally in Bosnia?
8 MR. WOOD: I object, Your Honour, that's a leading question.
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: I would agree. Can you rephrase, Madam Vidovic?
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with all due respect,
11 I gave the witness two options, but never mind.
12 Q. Witness, forget what I said before. Tell me, who did these
13 stories concern? Someone specific or not?
14 A. No, no one specific. It was a general story speaking of some
15 Arabs, some Mujahedin.
16 Q. Thank you. Just one more question, General Karavelic. For three
17 days now, you have been giving evidence saying that you, as corps
18 commander, requested the use of force. Have you ever heard of any other
19 corps commander doing the same, requesting the use of force for similar
21 A. Not that I know of.
22 Q. Was it or was it not necessary for the corps commander to request
23 use of force for the matter to be considered at all?
24 A. I think I've said this more than once, yes.
25 Q. Would you have to corroborate your request with facts?
1 A. Certainly.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,
3 Your Honours. Thank you.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Vidovic.
5 Mr. Wood.
6 MR. WOOD: There is some difficulty, Your Honour. When I'm
7 waiting for the translation, often times it's hard to object because the
8 answer has already been given by the time the offending question has been
9 asked. I would just note that the last question, "Would you have to
10 corroborate your request with facts," is again a leading question. And I
11 would suggest even though I didn't have the time to object to that, that
12 whatever answer he gives to leading questions like this should be given
13 very little weight.
14 With that said, Your Honour, I do have some questions to ask him
15 specifically in regards to his expert report in Hadzihasanovic since that
16 has come up before the Trial Chamber.
17 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Wood:
18 Q. General Karavelic, you did say that you prepared an expert report
19 for the Hadzihasanovic and Kubura case?
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Wood, sorry, because I'm wary of the time.
21 If you have a number of questions that you wish to put then I suggest we
22 take the break now and reconvene at 6.00. The alternative would be to
23 ask you if you intend or if you -- yes, intend to finish before quarter
24 to 6.00. In that case, I would be willing to go on until quarter to 6.00
25 and then we can close. But if you need more time, that's perfectly all
1 right, then we'll just adjourn now and reconvene at 6.00.
2 MR. WOOD: I think I can finish by a quarter to 6.00.
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: That's good, Mr. Wood.
4 Madam Vidovic.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, let us just clear up
6 one matter, just one, please.
7 General Vahid Karavelic is testifying here and testified in
8 examination in chief as a fact witness and not as an expert. The Court
9 of course has the right to ask any question at all and you did so,
10 Your Honour, but I do oppose any attempt by the Prosecutor to ask
11 questions that fall in the domain of expertise. Here, he appears as a
12 fact witness concerning events that we have been discussing.
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Vidovic, I fully agree with you in the
14 sense that it is clear that General Karavelic is not called here as an
15 expert, this is beyond question. If you recall our procedural
16 guidelines, I think in paragraph 6, there is a provision that allows a
17 party to confront a witness with his earlier statements in order to
18 refresh the witness's memory and I was under -- I was under the
19 impression that this is what Mr. Wood is doing. That he wants to
20 confront the witness with something in that report in order to refresh
21 the witness's memory.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Under those
23 circumstances, my learned friend, Mr. Wood, should have notified us that
24 he would be using the expert report and put it back on the list so that I
25 could review it and have it in mind. The expert report was not listed
1 among the things that would be used.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: I'm not with you on this one, Madam Vidovic.
3 Documents that are going to be used will have to be disclosed to the
4 other party within the time limits that we have set out. That is one
6 Another thing is to use a document briefly, not to have it
7 introduced into evidence but to only refresh the witness's memory, and
8 for that purpose you do not need, and in most cases you probably can't,
9 disclose, in advance, those documents. So I think it's perfectly
10 legitimate for a party to use a document not for the purpose of admission
11 into evidence but only for the purpose of refreshing the witness's memory
12 and that does not require previous disclosure.
13 MR. WOOD: Mr. President --
14 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I wish to intervene on this
15 also. Mr. Prosecutor, you have the intention to refresh the memory of
16 the witness with this expert report? You intend to put the expert report
17 in the Hadzihasanovic case? And the Halilovic case?
18 MR. WOOD: It was an expert report for the case of Hadzihasanovic
19 and Kubura, just for the record. It's not my intention to --
20 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Excuse me, but I'm against this.
21 This was an expert report and I believe that this cannot be done because
22 there, there are opinions which are expressed, while here, the witness is
23 here a witness -- I think one shouldn't refresh the memory of a witness
24 of facts by a report, an expert report. Therefore, I don't know what to
25 do now ...
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: That settles the matter because the Chamber will
2 then have to prevent you from bringing this report up at this moment.
3 MR. WOOD: Your Honour, perhaps I could clarify. It was not my
4 intention to put the document itself to General Karavelic. I read the
5 report as did Madam Vidovic, but it is not my intention to put it to him
6 to refresh his recollection or anything like that.
7 What I can tell you, the point of asking questions about that is
8 General Karavelic said that a lot of his knowledge with regard to the
9 Mujahedin springs from the research that he did in regards to drafting
10 that expert report. I think it's important for a few -- for the
11 Trial Chamber to bear in mind a few important facts about the scope of
12 that report and about the methodology that went about -- that was used in
13 drafting that.
14 I think now, the impression is that he has an undue amount of
15 expertise about the Mujahedin from 1993 to 1995 when I can tell you,
16 Your Honour, as is on the record, the Hadzihasanovic case, dealt with
17 Hadzihasanovic who was the 3rd Corps Commander only until November 1st,
18 1993. Therefore I think it's important to elicit from this witness to
19 explain to the Trial Chamber that he has no knowledge, that the scope of
20 his knowledge is specific just to that, to whatever he looked at for the
21 purposes of the Hadzihasanovic and Kubura case which went no further than
22 1 November 1993.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: I must say that you are not providing a very
24 correct picture of what General Karavelic has testified here. As far as
25 I recall from the witness's testimony, he has told us that there were
1 rumours about war crimes and that's about it. We have not heard what
2 these war crimes were and we are not in any doubt as to how he learned
3 about these things.
4 So the sources of the rumours also were clear. I don't think
5 that there is any reason to go into the expert report of his.
6 MR. WOOD: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Another point that the Prosecution thinks is important to raise
8 is he did mention that there were some measures that General Delic tried
9 to take against the El Mujahid Detachment and I've located exactly what
10 document that is. He's made reference to it. I think it's important,
11 given this, that other questions be put to General Karavelic so that we
12 can understand exactly what his scope of knowledge is to be able to say
13 measures were taken against the Mujahedin by General Delic.
14 As you know, this is at the heart of the matter, the Prosecution
15 believes it's important to be able to follow this up and add context to
16 what he's saying.
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Vidovic.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, objection.
19 General Karavelic spoke here about the Mujahedin. I don't remember, and
20 you will correct me if I am wrong, that he ever mentioned measures taken
21 against the detachment called El Mujahedin.
22 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Excuse me, but on this corps, I
23 would like to add that when the witness expresses opinions, because he
24 also expressed some opinions and the Chamber won't take them on board
25 because he is a witness of fact. So the Trial Chamber can easily make
1 the difference between opinions expressed during his testimony yesterday,
2 today, and facts. But when I asked him, I said you're saying this on the
3 basis of the expert report or on the basis of what you heard during the
4 war, he answered that he had heard something on the basis of the report,
5 the expert report, but certain things he had also learned during the war.
6 Therefore, I think that we have all the elements at hand in order
7 to distinguish, make the difference between what he told us as a witness
8 of a fact during this period, during those events during the war, and
9 what he may have learned later in the light of his testimony in other
10 cases. Therefore, I believe that in order to pacify the parties, the
11 Chamber needs to see -- is quite in a position to see clearly this
12 witness in his deposition, I don't think one should go -- follow this
13 avenue. But I will defer to what the President Judge decides.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Wood --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Presiding Judge decides.
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: -- I note the time, and wish to know if you
17 insist on going on along this track or whether you have other questions
18 that you wish to put to the witness in response to the answers given by
19 the witness to the questions posed by the Chamber.
20 MR. WOOD: Mr. President, the Prosecution takes heart in what
21 Judge Lattanzi just said about the Trial Chamber's ability to distinguish
22 between what the witness says as a fact witness and what he says as an
23 opinion. I would hope that they apply this to the entirety of his
24 testimony not just to what has transpired in the last few minutes here.
25 And given that, the Prosecution does not believe that it does need to
1 pursue this any further as long as it's understood that what the witness
2 is saying about this is his opinion only, and not facts that he's aware
3 of firsthand.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: This is clearly understood by the Chamber.
5 If the parties have no more questions to put, then I think we
6 have reached the end of your testimony and it is incumbent upon me,
7 General, to thank you warmly for having come yet once again to The Hague
8 to offer your testimony and your knowledge about these cases.
9 So I thank you for coming. I thank you for testifying and I wish
10 you a good travel back to your country. Thank you very much. You may
12 [The witness withdrew]
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Vidovic, who is your next witness?
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you recall the
15 situation that we discussed a few days ago, the situation that we had to
16 face because of the difficulties with these Italian documents, we had
17 planned General Cuskic for tomorrow but we had moved him to some point in
18 the future until we found out what is going to happen with the Italian
19 documents and we were unable to predict how long this testimony would
20 take and we were not able to get a witness who was able to come only for
21 a short time because we are not going to sit for a long time, the witness
22 would have to go here and -- to come here and go back. We are not
23 sitting in the next five days, so we would probably have to wait for the
24 Wednesday that follows. That's why I don't have a witness for tomorrow.
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Madam Vidovic.
1 The registrar informs me that the next hearing would be on
2 Thursday; is that correct?
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well. In that case, I can adjourn for today
5 and say that we will reconvene on Thursday, the 3rd of April at 9.00 a.m.
6 in this courtroom.
7 Mr. Wood, do you have anything to add.
8 MR. WOOD: I'm just standing up early in honour of Your Judge's
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: That's very good of you. You can't wait to see
11 us out of here, I suppose. I wish you all a pleasant time until we meet
12 again. Thank you very much.
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.50 p.m.,
14 to be reconvened on Thursday, April 3,
15 2008 at 9.00 a.m.