1 Tuesday, 8 April 2008.
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.14 p.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom.
7 Madam Registrar, could we please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon
9 everybody in the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-83-T, The
10 Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we have the appearances for the day,
12 starting with the Prosecution.
13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon, Your
14 Honours to my learned colleagues from the Defence and everyone in and
15 around the courtroom. Daryl Mundis for the Prosecution assisted by my
16 case manager, Alma Imamovic-Ivanov.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much and for the Defence.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour, good
19 afternoon to my colleagues from the OTP. To everyone in and around the
20 courtroom. I'm Vasvija Vidovic with Nicholas Robson representing
21 General Rasim Delic with legal assistant Lejla Gluhic.
6 [Private session]
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Good afternoon to you sir.
8 And I'm sorry to have kept you waiting and standing. May you please make
9 the declaration.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
11 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
12 WITNESS: ISMET DEDOVIC
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Examination by Ms. Vidovic:
19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dedovic, good afternoon.
20 A. Good afternoon to you.
21 Q. Before I move to my questions, I would like to ask you to speak
22 as slowly as possible and to leave a pause between my question and your
23 answer because in that way, we will have a complete transcript and it
24 will reflect everything that we are saying here.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You are aware that what you are saying is being interpreted and
2 also my question and your answer should not overlap.
3 A. All right.
4 Q. I would like to ask you for your full name for the transcript.
5 A. I am Ismet Dedovic.
6 Q. When and where were you born?
7 A. I was born in Sarajevo on the 28th of June, 1965.
8 Q. And where do you live?
9 A. I live in Sarajevo, in Dervis Numic Street, number 1.
10 Q. And which school did you complete?
11 A. I completed the technical engineering school.
12 Q. Mr. Dedovic, where were you when the war broke out?
13 A. I was in Sarajevo.
14 Q. Did you join any army?
15 A. Yes, at the beginning of the war, I joined the Territorial
17 Q. Yes, it will be better if you move closer to the microphone.
18 At any point, did you become a member of the Main Staff of the
19 army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
20 A. Yes. This was on the 12th of June, 1993.
21 Q. And which duties were you performing?
22 A. I was an escort of General Delic.
23 Q. Who decided to appoint you?
24 A. The decision on my appointment was made by the military security
1 Q. So did I understand you correctly, that you were part of
2 General Rasim Delic's cabinet?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And where was General Delic's office when you began to work there
5 in June 1993?
6 A. General Delic's office was in the building off the directorate of
7 the construction company.
8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the name of the
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. And where is that?
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The interpreter did not catch the name of the
13 company, Madam Vidovic.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the Vranica Construction
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Thank you. Can you also speak up a little bit.
19 A. Yes, very well.
20 Q. And where was the Vranica head office?
21 A. The Vranica head office was in Sarajevo, in the Centar
22 municipality, centre municipality.
23 Q. Thank you. Do you remember where the offices of the operation
24 centre of the Main Staff were at that time?
25 A. Yes. The premises of the Main Staff operations office was in the
1 public accounting services building, and it's known as the building near
2 Vjecna Vatra, the eternal fire.
3 Q. Let's just clarify because it's not quite clearly entered in the
4 transcript. Can you please repeat? I asked you about the operations
5 centre of the Main Staff?
6 A. Yes, the operation centre of the Main Staff was in the building
7 of the public accounting office which was known as the building near the
8 Vjecna Vatra.
9 Q. Thank you very much. How far was the office from this place
10 where the operation centre was. Do you recall that?
11 A. It was some 4 to 500 metres from the commander's office.
12 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to ask you to something about the
13 scope of your work.
14 You told us that you were appointed as escort of the Main Staff
15 commander. How long did you work as General Delic's escort. Do you
17 A. Yes, I do, of course. How can I not? I worked at that post
18 throughout the whole war and then after the war until the General retired
19 except for a certain period when I went for military training.
20 Q. Thank you. In other words, you were an escort of General Delic
21 from the point in time that he became the Main Staff commander until the
22 end of the war. Is this correct?
23 A. Yes, it is.
24 Q. Can you please explain to us how much time when you were doing
25 this job did you actually spend with him?
1 A. Well, the work is of such a nature that I was practically with
2 him for 24 hours a day. I was with him all the time expect for the time
3 when the General was sleeping, but even then I was immediately close to
4 him. I was in the next room.
5 Q. Thank you. And can you please tell us exactly what your duties
6 were, what did you do?
7 A. My duty was to provide security for the commander when he was in
8 certain places or when he was moving.
9 Q. Can you please explain what you mean when you say "to provide
10 security for the commander in a certain location.
11 A. This means that one would know which unit was securing the
12 facility where the commander was staying, how many soldiers there are,
13 what the shifts are. My own duty was to be in front of the office and
14 to -- well, all the visits to the commander were announced, so I knew
15 about each single visit.
16 Q. And what does it mean to secure the commander while he was
18 A. This meant that we would announce that the commander was about to
19 go somewhere for a visit to a unit or to a different location, so this
20 would be movement with vehicles, helicopters, or walking. I was his
21 private -- on his private security detail.
22 Q. Did you have any duties in relation to the commander's visits to
23 specific locations?
24 A. Yes. I would announce that the commander would be coming to
25 specific places or facilities.
1 Q. Whom did you inform about that?
2 A. Well, the corps commander, if he was visiting the corps
4 Q. All right. I will come back to this.
5 I just want to ask you this: Did you have information about the
6 communications facilities used by the commander if he used any?
7 A. Well, our communications devices were quite poor. They were just
8 normal radio sets, radio stations which we couldn't even use properly.
9 Q. Why?
10 A. Because the devices of the former JNA were exceptionally powerful
11 so they would cover us electronically. They would override us so we were
12 not able to establish communications.
13 Q. And the B and H army at that time, did they have just devices?
14 A. No. The quality of our devices was quite poor. The army of the
15 Republika Srpska actually took over all the equipment of the former army,
16 so they had the latest technology and we only actually had some left
18 Q. All right. Are we talking about -- you mentioned announcing
19 visits when you would be going out in the field. Did the commander tour
20 units of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
21 A. Yes. General Delic spent a lot of time touring the armija units.
22 Q. Do you recall how many units there were in the B and H army at
23 the brigade level, and I'm talking about the period from mid-1993 until
24 the end of the war. Do you have an idea on average how many such units
25 there were?
1 A. There were about 100 brigades, on average, and also there were
2 about 500 battalion-rank units.
3 Q. Very well. Can you please tell us who choose the units, if
4 anyone did, that the General would visit. How was this process
6 A. Well, the process was that the corps commander would decide which
7 unit would be presented to General Delic, and if it wasn't the corps
8 commander it was his deputy or his chief. Commander Delic did not decide
9 which unit he would visit. It was a decision made by the corps command.
10 Q. Thank you. I would like to move to a different topic now. I
11 would like to talk to you about some events from June and July 1993.
12 You told us that you were appointed as escort of General Delic on
13 the 12th of June, 1993. I would like you to describe for us the
14 situation in the General Staff or the Main Staff, the way you saw it when
15 you came to take up your duties as escort of General Delic?
16 A. The situation at the Supreme Command staff was very unfavorable
17 for General Delic. There was a lot of distrust directed at him. His
18 closest associates felt like that. At that time he was their superior
19 officer so at any point they were trying to obstruct the General's work.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like the witness to look at
22 Exhibit 216 now, please. This is a document under seal, so can we please
23 move into closed session.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
25 [Private session]
11 Pages 8172-8173 redacted. Private session.
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Mr. Dedovic, a moment ago you mentioned the Sarajevo commanders
3 who, you said, did not support General Delic. Can you tell us briefly,
4 please, what you had in mind when you said that?
5 A. They formally recognised him as commander but did not carry out
6 his orders. I was referring to the members of the 9th and 10th Mountain
8 Q. What was their relationship vis-a-vis the commander of the
9 1st Corps, if you know?
10 A. Well, in principle, they did not respect the commander of the
11 1st Corps or the commander of the staff. They did not feel obliged
12 toward them in any way, and did not have any respect for them.
13 Q. You mentioned these commanders who were local commanders from
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you have occasion to see the situation, what it was like when
17 it came to the other BH army units in that period of time just before you
18 took up your duties in the office and afterwards?
19 A. Yes, I had occasion to see that. The units of were highly
20 disorganised. The commanders were local commanders. Every street had
21 its own commander. The command and control system had not been
22 established among these units, and this made it possible for the
23 commanders to act willfully and not have to respond to the -- their
24 superior command.
25 Q. Were there instances of crime in and around Sarajevo? Do you
1 know anything about that?
2 A. Yes. The highest presence of crime in Sarajevo was that of the
3 black market, smuggling.
4 Q. On the issue of crime, to your knowledge were certain activities
5 taken after the -- General Delic took up his duties? What was happening?
6 A. Upon taking up his duties, the General took certain measures
7 which meant that at once strong cooperation was developed with
8 Mr. Bakir Alispahic, the minister of the interior. They met on a daily
9 basis and worked a great deal toward combatting the crime.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just interrupt a little bit. When you say
11 the crime was rife in Sarajevo with respect to smuggling, are you talking
12 of amongst the general public or within the army?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It had to do both with the civilian
14 and military structures. Everyone was smuggling throughout the town.
15 Everyone was involved in that.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Including members of the army?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Some members of the army, not
18 the army as a whole.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Can you please repeat one name for us now. In your earlier
22 answer you explained that the General establishes cooperation with the
23 minister. Can you please slowly and clearly repeat his name? Can you
24 spell it out, please.
25 A. The minister concerned was the minister of the interior, Bakir,
1 B-a-k-i-r, Alispahic, A-l-i-s-p-a-h-i-c.
2 Q. Very well. Thank you very much.
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown
4 video 26, please.
5 [Videotape played]
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Mr. Dedovic, you heard the comment made in this video-clip. If
8 the minister of the interior or the Commander Rasim Delic issue an order,
9 everyone has to abide by it. We have an example out from the field where
10 Commander Delic signed a piece of paper of his. He say, well this is all
11 in vain until my superior officer signs. This nobody will consider it
12 seriously do you have a comment to make on this?
13 A. Yes. What we just saw precisely reflects the situation as it was
14 in the field. There were brigade commanders acting willfully, not
15 respecting the commander of the 1st Corps, the minister of the interior,
16 the commander of the staff of the Supreme Command.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the minister of the
19 interior, Bakir Alispahic.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I omitted
21 to clarify that.
22 Q. I wanted to ask you this. The speaker said Fikret is the boss on
23 that side of the Igman mount and on this side, Hadzija is the boss.
24 First of all can you tell what you say this means, the other side
25 or the slope of Igman mountain, and Hadzija, who are these people?
1 A. Yes, this is Tadic, the commander of the 4th Motorised Brigade,
2 Fikret Prevljak; and Hadzija is Ismet Hadzic, who was the commander of
3 the 5th Motorised Brigade; and they were the ones who practically had a
4 say as to who could come into the town or leave it. They were the ones
5 exercising control over there.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you remind you to stop after a while after
7 hearing the question to allow the interpreters. You overlap and the
8 interpreter is moving very fast to catch up with you. I think she missed
9 a few things.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can this video-clip be
12 assigned an exhibit number, please.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Video 26 is admitted into evidence. May it please
14 be given an exhibit number.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the video becomes exhibit 1356.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
17 Madam Vidovic.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. Dedovic, you described some aspects of the situation in
20 Sarajevo, and the problems encountered in the command system. Can you
21 now explain to us very briefly what the military situation around
22 Sarajevo was in June of 1993 if you remember?
23 A. Yes, I do. And that was the most difficult part of 1993, because
24 in early June the Serb forces launched powerful offensive in the
25 direction of the town of Gorazde. They surrounded Gorazde which caused
1 the exodus of the Drina valley population, people fleeing in large
2 numbers. There were many refugees. However, the Serb forces did not
3 stop there. They advanced toward yet smaller town of Trnovo, but they
4 did not stop there either. They approached the Jahorina villages and
5 the --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Another location the witness mentioned, the
7 interpreter didn't catch.
8 A. There was fierce fighting around the town. Everyday artillery
9 fire incriminate fire on the towns, fire opened upon all the
10 intersections. The living conditions in the town were very poor. There
11 was no running water, electricity, food, or medicines. Everything was in
12 short supply.
13 Q. Witness, just for the transcript we want to clarify something.
14 You mentioned a plateau. Can you please tell us the name of the plateau?
15 A. The Bjelasnica-Treskavica plateau. That includes the mountains
16 of Treskavica and Bjelasnica.
17 Q. Can you please spell the name the plateau?
18 A. The Bjelasnica-Treskavica plateau, B-J-E-L-A-S-N-I-C-A
20 Q. Can you please tell us where this plateau is?
21 A. It is very close to Sarajevo. It's known as the Olympic
23 Q. So this situation and these events relating to Igman, did you
24 notice or not any activities in the Main Staff?
25 A. Yes, there was a lot of activity for the commander, especially
1 there were meetings with the 1st Corps commander to resolve the
2 situations that were arising. There was a large number of meetings with
3 representatives of the international forces with the UN commander of
4 Bosnia and Herzegovina forces. I think that the General's name was
5 Briquemont. And there were daily activities plus the internal problems
6 within the staff itself.
7 Q. Thank you. I would like to ask you this now. You said that you
8 were always in General Delic's escort. At that time did you try to leave
9 in July 1993. Did you try to get out of Sarajevo?
10 A. Yes, we tried to get out of Sarajevo but that was practically
11 impossible then because it was the strongest enemy offensive at that time
12 on Sarajevo and the wider Sarajevo area. We tried to get out. We stayed
13 outside for a couple of hours, and then we returned to Sarajevo. The
14 commander wanted to see for himself what the situation was.
15 Q. Why did you not manage to get out then?
16 A. Because of strong enemy fire, because the way out of Sarajevo
17 through Igman was constantly under the control of -- or tank fire from
18 the direction of Gavrica Brdo, antiaircraft guns from the direction of
19 the forestry school, they held that sector of the Igman road and they
20 opened fire, so it was impossible to get out of Sarajevo. The only way
21 to get out would be at night when the lights were turned off using the
22 Macadam forest road. But it was still practically impossible.
23 Q. Very well. I would like to ask you this now. When did you
24 actually manage or did you at any point succeed to reach free territory
25 and when, if you can recall this?
1 A. Yes, the first time we left was towards the end of August 1993.
2 And that is when we went to Zenica.
3 Q. Can you briefly describe how this crossing of the Igman mountain
4 was like?
5 A. Well, it was just like I described it earlier. It was very
6 amazing thing to get out of Sarajevo without lights. It was like playing
7 Russian roulette. If you passed, you passed, and if you couldn't pass,
8 it meant you were killed.
9 Q. So you got out sometime in late August 1993. Can you please tell
10 me what was your experience of the situation in the field in Zenica, for
11 example, in August 1993, how did you see that?
12 A. The situation was the same or similar to the one in Sarajevo.
13 The communications were not functioning well with the Supreme Command
14 staff. The units were not linked up. Personnel was inadequate at
15 command posts meaning that people who were leading those units were not
16 properly trained in order to be up to the task.
17 Q. And how did you find all of this out?
18 A. During lunch, during a visit to the command of the 3rd Corps,
19 General Enver Hadzihasanovic, I know that General Hadzihasanovic
20 complained to Commander Delic that they didn't have enough materiel,
21 equipment, ammunition, food, and General Delic replied that the situation
22 was the same there all units.
23 Q. All right. Did you actually know that there was HVO in the
24 Central Bosnia sector at that time. Did you know that?
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 Q. And what was the situation vis-a-vis the HVO? What were
2 relations like the HVO like at that time. Do you remember?
3 A. At that time the conflict escalated between members of the HVO
4 and members of the B and H army around Zepce, Vakuf, Vitez, Kiseljak, and
5 Mostar, these were all the actual areas that they held.
6 Q. And were new a position to talk to General Delic about the events
7 at that time?
8 A. During the driving, the commander would talk about it, so I
9 actually learned what was going on.
10 Q. I'm going to go back to this. I would just like to ask you to
11 repeat again the names of the towns where the clashes broke out with the
12 HVO at that time. Can you please speak slowly and clearly.
13 A. There were clashes in -- there was an exchange of fire and the
14 situation escalated in the areas held by members of the HVO, and this was
15 in Zepce, Gornji Vakuf, --
16 Q. Can you please say Zepce again?
17 A. Z-E-P-C-E, Zepce; Gornji Vakuf, Prozor, Vitez, Kiseljak, Mostar.
18 Q. Thank you. So we have all of this on the transcript now.
19 I interpreted you with my request to repeat the names, so you
20 said in response to my question, if you had talked about some events with
21 General Delic and you said that you did have an opportunity to hear about
22 the events while talking with him.
23 A. Yes, these were more comments by the commander than a
25 Q. Thank you very much. I would just like now to go back to some
1 events in Sarajevo very briefly. You talked about insubordinate
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would just like to show the
4 witness for a moment Exhibit 217, please.
5 Your Honours, before the document is shown on the monitor, I just
6 wanted to say that the Bosnian version is not very legible the way it's
7 been scanned, so we have prepared the document. Before we show it to the
8 witness, I would just like to show it to my colleagues from the
10 For the transcript, this is a criminal report of the Security
11 Administration from the 29th of October, 1993.
12 Q. Witness, can you please look at page 5 of the Bosnian version.
13 And this is page 3 of the English version. Page 3 of the English
15 Mr. Dedovic, You mentioned insubordinate commanders and we have a
16 description here. Can you please look at this part on page 5 which says
17 on the 2nd and 3rd of July, 1993, as members of the 10th Mountain Brigade
18 of the 1st Corps of the army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina
19 and the 9th Motorised Brigade participated in the armed attacks on the
20 buildings and members of the public security service Stari Grad centre
22 You were a member of the Supreme Command so does this text
23 reflect the actual situation?
24 A. Yes, the document does reflect the situation as it was in the
1 Q. Is it true that on that day you worked at the Supreme Command
2 Staff this was the night between the 2nd and 3rd of July. Was anything
3 attacked in the Supreme Command?
4 A. Yes, the operation centre of the Supreme Command Staff was
6 Q. Thank you. I would like to ask you this now. Did you know the
7 son of General Delic, Admir Delic?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you please look at page 7 of the document now which is five
10 of the English version, page 5 of the English version?
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: While we turn the page, could we have elicited
12 from the witness who attacked the Supreme Command Staff.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The Supreme Command staff or,
14 rather, the operation centre was attacked by members of the 9th and 10th
15 Mountain Brigade.
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. So can you please look at halfway of the paragraph where it says:
20 "Members of the 10th Brigade arrested the following military
21 police officers, Delic Admir, Ibrahim Greda, so on and so forth.
22 Do you know who this person is Admir Delic who is mentioned here?
23 A. Yes, Admir Delic is the son of General Delic.
24 Q. According to what you know, did something like that happen to the
25 General's son?
1 A. Yes what is said here did actually happen.
2 Q. Can you briefly describe what you know about that event?
3 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Your Honours. This is largely irrelevant
4 to the charges facing the accused, and I don't see exactly why we need to
5 be going into what happened to the accused's son.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I absolutely
8 disagree. This particular detail is very relevant, and it is very
9 illustrative of the situation in which -- actually it is very relevant
10 for the indictment. This is June 1993, July 1993, so it's relative in
11 terms of the indictment when General Delic is receiving letters. This is
12 the situation in which General Delic was acting, and this is the
13 situation that indicates his influence as a commander. This is going to
14 be quite clear in the next two or three questions. The Supreme Command
15 staff is being attacked, and his son is arrested. So if this is not
16 relevant for the situation in which he was acting and for the
17 situation -- or actually for the Court's understanding of how powerless
18 he was to do anything in that situation, then ...
19 Your Honours, actually, I cannot understand the nature of the
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question will be allowed.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before that, I just
24 have a correction for the transcript. I was speaking quickly so they did
25 not manage to put it in.
1 I put in the time in which the -- General Delic allegedly
2 received documents and not received documents.
3 Q. Witness, we were interrupted. I would just like to ask you if
4 you recall my question.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can you answer?
7 A. Yes, I can.
8 Q. Please, go ahead?
9 A. Admir Delic and Greda Ibrahim were arrested by members of the 9th
10 and 10th Mountain Brigade while they were carrying out their regular
11 assignments. They were brought to their headquarters. Their IDs were
12 confiscated and then they could see exactly who these persons were as
13 soon as they found out that it was General Delic's son, they began to
14 abuse him, insult him, beat him. They took their uniforms from them and
15 gave them worn torn clothes to wear, and after that, they were taken to
16 dig trenches. During the interrogation, Greda Ibrahim and Admir Delic at
17 some point managed to escape to the part of the building that was under
18 the control of the Egyptian Battalion. They were then arrested by
19 members of the Egyptian Battalion and returned to members of the 9th and
20 10th Mountain Brigade and then they beat them up even more.
21 Q. Let me ask you this: To your knowledge, was General Delic able
22 to have any sort of influence on this situation involving his son?
23 A. General Delic could not have any influence on this situation for
24 any course of action. He had to ask for the approval of the superior
25 structure, and that was the Presidency and the president of the republic.
1 The commander could not take any action on his own.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I want the witness to be shown
5 Q. What you see on the screen is a document dated the 5th of July,
6 1993, and it's a medical certificate belonging to Admir Delic. Please
7 have a look at it. Is this document related to the events you described?
8 A. Yes. This document is related to the event which took place.
9 However, I see that his injuries were very much downplayed in this
10 medical certificate, because the injuries Admir Delic sustained were far
11 more severe than described here.
12 Q. And what is your interpretation of this answer?
13 A. Well, this is how I see it --
14 MR. MUNDIS: Objection.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.
16 MR. MUNDIS: Objection. This is both irrelevant, and I fail to
17 see how the accused's body-guard can interpreter a medical certificate.
18 So we object both on the grounds that this is completely irrelevant to
19 these charges, and certainly the accused's body-guard is not in a
20 position to comment or interpret a medical certificate in our respective
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know how it
24 was interpreted. I did not ask the witness to interpret this medical
25 certificate, although this is how you may see it on the transcript. I
1 wanted the witness to interpret or tell us to interpret his own words to
2 us, to tell us what it is that he meant when he said that the medical
3 certificate was downplayed. I was interested in his answer and not in
4 the medical certificate.
5 Q. Can you please answer my question?
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: When she is now going to tell us about the
7 downplaying of the certificate he is beginning to comment on this
8 document, and I really don't know whether he is a person to comment on
9 this document. I think the document speaks for itself.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Ultimately, yes, Your Honour. I
11 withdraw the question.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
13 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, my objection still stands to this
14 entire line of questioning. It is one thing to say that incidents
15 concerning the 9th and 10th the Defence position being that they were not
16 under control. It is a completely entirely different matter to be going
17 into these injuries sustained by the accused's son that has nothing to do
18 in our respectful view with the issues concerning this trial.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I was meaning to
23 respond to this, and I apologise. I didn't see that you were conferring
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. Would you like to respond now? I'm sorry.
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I meant to say that I had already
2 explained the position of the Defence because the Prosecutor repeated the
3 objection that was raised earlier on. And I had, at that point,
4 responded why I believed the line of questioning was highly relevant and
5 I was referring to all the questions, save for the last one that I
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic. We understand that you may
8 have had a point in making -- telling us what happened on the 9th and
9 10th -- is it the 9th and 10th? But I really think, and I think this is
10 the view of the Bench that you're going a little too far. We've heard
11 that the accused's son was arrested, was beaten up. What are we going to
12 could with this medical certificate, for instance, what are we going to
13 do with the extend of his injuries?
14 If you tell us he was beaten up and the accused therefore had to
15 go and attend to him, that's enough, but to tell us the extent of the
16 injuries, I don't think it is absolutely relevant.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I want the document to
18 be assigned an exhibit number and the point, why I want this document to
19 be admitted, is neither what the Prosecutor claims here nor what you
21 Now, the point of the matter is not whether the accused was
22 supposed to go and see his son but the extent to which the accused had
23 influence to wield and what the situation was like within the command and
24 control system as he took up his duties and what his position in that
25 was. In the context of his son being arrested, and for this reason, Your
1 Honour, I would like this document to be admitted into evidence.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, if you wanted to have this document
3 admitted, just say so. When you give all that argument, I'm not sure
4 whether you are commenting on the ruling that has been made or not and
5 that would not be appropriate or permissible, to comment on a ruling.
6 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution would again object on the grounds
7 that this is not relevant. The medical certificate is not relevant to
8 these proceedings, and we say that all due respect both to the accused
9 and to his son. The fact of the matter is issues concerning command and
10 control even as they related to the 9th and 10th Mountain Brigades in
11 Sarajevo. That issue is separate from this medical issue, this medical
12 certificate and what happened to the accused's son. And this document
13 and this line of questioning is not relevant in our respectful
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is not going to be admitted.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Witness, did you hear of an individual called Senad Pecar?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can you tell us whether something was happening that involved
21 this person?
22 A. Yes. At that time Senad Pecar was taken into the military
23 security office and he was one of --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please repeat his duty.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].
1 Q. Do you recall what happened after that?
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: The interpreter asked that the witness repeat the
3 duty of this person.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Senad Pecar was assistant commander
5 of the 10th Mountain Brigade.
6 Q. Thank you very much.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that this
8 might be the good time for our break.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: We still have some three minutes, Madam Vidovic.
10 Unless you're saying you're going into a new topic and you don't want to
11 break it.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take a break and come back at 4.00.
14 Court adjourned.
15 --- Recess taken at 3.27 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 3.58 p.m.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before I resume my
19 examination of the witness, I would like to state the following for the
21 During the testimony of the earlier witness, General Karavelic,
22 we received an order to change an exhibit MFI 1334, or, rather, we were
23 ordered to change the translation by adding one word. This was a piece
24 of video footage, if you recall, MFI 1334. We corrected the error in the
25 translation and sent the video-clip to the Prosecution and the chamber,
1 as well as the registrar. And can the number of the Exhibit MFI 1334 now
2 be changed? Can it be given another exhibit number?
3 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, we were provided a DVD with this
4 video. We'll take a look at it perhaps at the next break if not any
5 sooner. I don't think we can access it here in the courtroom, and I
6 think it is fine at that point based on Madam Vidovic's assurances and if
7 there is an problem I will come back to you, but I think it might cleaner
8 at this point to go ahead and admit the document, strike the MFI and if
9 there is a problem then I will revisit the issue, if that is acceptable.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Mundis. MFI 1334 is now
11 admitted into evidence and it is Exhibit 1334. Thank you very much.
12 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. Before the break, we spoke of Senad Pecar. You said that you
15 knew who he was. Can you tell us briefly what was going on after his
16 arrest. Do you have any knowledge about this and why did you mention him
17 having been arrested.
18 A. Senad Pecar was arrested and taken to the military security
19 office. At that point in time, we were right outside the Security
20 Administration building when the chief of the military administration,
21 Fikret Muslimovic the president's escort Haris Lukovac and two more
22 officers of the military security sector were commenting upon the arrest
23 of Senad Pecar. There were two members from the 10th Mountain Brigade
24 there as well. Through a hand held radio set, Musan Topalovic, Caco,
25 spoke -- Musan Topalovic spoke to someone from the Presidency and it
1 boiled down to this. He was threatening that unless Senad Pecar was
2 released right away, he would be using mortars to shell the Presidency
3 building. He also threatened to abandoned the defence line held by his
5 We then went to the Presidency building.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Who had arrested -- what's his name --
7 Senad Pecar.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Senad Pecar was arrested by members
9 of the military security service.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: What for?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because of their actions that I
12 already mentioned. Some criminal activities from earlier on, attacks on
13 public security stations and so on.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: He was part of Caco's clique?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. He was one of the deputies of
16 Musan Topalovic, Caco.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Madam Vidovic.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. You said we were outside the Presidency building and then you
20 said we went into the Presidency building. Who is we?
21 A. The Commander Rasim Delic, and I as his escort.
22 Q. Very well. Tell us what happened next, if anything happened?
23 A. General Delic attended a meeting with the president. I don't
24 know what the meeting was about. I did not attend such meetings. I do
25 know that as we returned to the command Senad Pecar was released.
1 Q. To your knowledge, did General Delic have any information about
2 this case?
3 A. No, he didn't have any information about the case. We were taken
4 aback by it. The commander was quite poorly informed of all the
6 Q. You say we were taken aback. Why was this the case?
7 A. Because the commander didn't have any information about these
9 Q. And who did?
10 A. The president of the Presidency had the relevant information.
11 They turned to the president for all the problems they had. They did not
12 recognise the commander of the 1st Corps as their immediate superior or
13 the commander of the staff of the Supreme Command. They did not
14 recognise them. For any problems they had, they turned to the
16 Q. Thank you. I want to move on to a different topic now.
17 In your evidence you said that the command post of the staff of
18 the Supreme Command was in a building in the centre of Sarajevo. Did
19 there come a time when a command post of the staff of the Supreme Command
20 was set up outside Sarajevo?
21 A. Yes. In early 1994, in Kakanj.
22 Q. To your knowledge, how often did General Delic go to Kakanj?
23 A. Very rarely. Only if we were on a route to other corps that we
24 would visit. He only went to Kakanj rarely.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown video 28
1 now, please. Video 28.
2 [Videotape played]
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Witness, what was mentioned here was that part of the staff was
5 operative in Kakanj and part was operative in Sarajevo and that they
6 communicated only through occasional visits and correspond but that there
7 were not many opportunities to meet up. This is what the speaker said.
8 What is your comment in respect of that?
9 A. This shows that the commander spent very little of his time in
10 Kakanj to meet up with his subordinates. They didn't have occasion to
11 meet often.
12 Q. How long would the General stay in Kakanj, if he stayed there at
14 A. Sometimes 15 minutes, sometimes two hours or one hour,
15 sometimes -- actually, not ever a whole day but more or less a couple of
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this video-clip
18 be given an exhibit number.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do that, who was the first speaker?
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Witness the Judge is asking you --
22 A. The Chief of Staff, General Enver Hadzihasanovic.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: You said General?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, General Enver Hadzihasanovic.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
3 The video clip V 28 is admitted into evidence. May it please be
4 given an exhibit number.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours video 28 will become Exhibit number
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
8 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. You've already told us that you were near General Delic. Can you
11 please tell me, after the Kakanj command post was established, what were
12 the activities of General Delic? Can you please describe that the way
13 you saw it, as his escort?
14 A. After Kakanj was established, General Delic had a lot of work.
15 There were a lot of duties, and most often this consisted of negotiations
16 with members of the HVO, the establishment of a lasting truce and the
17 cessation of hostilities. There were also lots of meetings with
18 representatives of international community and members of the HVO and all
19 of this brought about the Zagreb agreement and this was, I think, on the
20 28th of February, 1994. He was fully engaged in this matter.
21 Q. So let's clarify for the transcript. It's not all there.
22 Here you're talking about the period after the establishment of
23 the Kakanj forward command post?
24 A. Yes, this is January and February 1994.
25 Q. Thank you very much. I would like you to just tell us briefly as
1 follows. You said that General Delic worked on this agreement with the
2 Croats. After the agreement, were there any activities that you know of?
3 A. Yes. After that, General Delic was even busier on joint
4 cooperation of the army of the B and H and the HVO and the Croatian army.
5 Q. Thank you very much.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can the witness now
7 look at D986, please.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Don't overlap, Madam Vidovic.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.
10 For the transcript, this is a part of the daily information
11 bulletin on the 11th of January, 1995.
12 Can we please scroll down that -- so that we see the bottom of
13 the document in the Bosnian version and also can we zoom in on the part
14 of the text in the Bosnian version -- the part of the text in the lower
15 right-hand corner. Thank you.
16 Q. Witness, now can you please look at this. The title is
17 Delic-Rose talks. Can you please tell us who was this person Rose, if
18 you know?
19 A. Yes, I do. This was British General Michael Rose commander of
20 the UNPROFOR forces for Bosnia and Herzegovina.
21 Q. Did General Rose meet with this person from what you know?
22 A. Yes, General Rose and General Delic met frequently.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at the second page
24 of this document, also in the English version.
25 Q. Could you please zoom in the section in the middle where it says:
1 "The military attache, US military attache visits General Delic?
2 Witness, can you please look at that section of the text. The
3 next talks about a meeting that had to do with the implementation of the
4 military part of the Washington Agreement. I would like to ask you if
5 you know whether this visit by the US military attache was an exception
6 in this period or did something like this happen frequently, if you know?
7 A. Yes, I do know. The US military attache's visit was not an
8 exception. He would come by quite often. Not just him, all the
9 accredited military attaches in Bosnia would often come and visit the
10 commander as well as representatives of international organisations the
11 Red Cross. They would all come to talk with the commander.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document be
13 given an exhibit number, please.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
15 please be given an exhibit number.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become Exhibit
17 number 1358.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you -- thank you very much.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can the witness now
20 look at D991, please.
21 For the transcript, what will be interesting to us is this bottom
22 right-hand corner. General Delic -- actually, the whole section, both of
23 the text in the lower right-hand corner. Thank you.
24 Q. Witness, I would like to ask you this: This is the press centre
25 release of the 15th of March, 1995 of the army where it says
1 General Delic received Ambassador Preinsing and then also the military
2 attache of the Republic of France?
3 A. Yes, that is right.
4 Q. Can you please tell us how much time General Delic actually spent
5 with these people?
6 A. Quite a lot of time. They would come to visit the commander
7 often. They would be interested in the implementation of the peace
8 accords, cooperation with the Croatian Defence Council, the Croatian Army
9 how this was being implemented and the implementation of the agreement.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this exhibit
11 please be given an exhibit number.
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Vidovic, before we decide on the admission
13 of this document, I have a question that relates to this and in fact also
14 the former document, namely to understand the relevance to it.
15 Does the witness know whether any matters relevant to the
16 indictment were discussed during these meetings or what is otherwise the
17 purpose of bringing them to us, other than showing that General Delic was
18 a busy man, which I fully believe.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I'm going to be
20 very brief without influencing the witness in any way.
21 This speaks to, in part, about what you said, about what the
22 General was doing but what's important also are the dates of these
23 documents. They could be very relevant in indicating where General Delic
24 was, for example. That he wasn't in Kakanj but that he was here.
25 So the dates of these documents and the dates of these visits are
1 very important to us, as well as the fact that we can see what we can --
2 what General Delic was doing as a commander at the strategic level.
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: That is exactly what -- what bothers me a bit.
4 Because I don't see what he was doing as a staff commander. I see that
5 he was doing something, that he was talking to Johannes Preinsing or
6 other military diplomates or military ones. But what they were talking
7 about is not obvious from these two bulletins.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, based on these two
9 bulletins, the way I see it we can see that this is military diplomacy
10 this is involved. But we will have a couple of witness who perhaps would
11 be able to throw more light on these documents and meetings.
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: All right.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
14 please be given an exhibit number.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become Exhibit
16 number 1359.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
18 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].
20 Q. Mr. Dedovic, I would now like to focus on some events from
21 June and July 1995.
22 Before I move to June and July 1995, I would like to ask you if
23 you recall the situation in the town of Sarajevo in the spring and summer
24 of 1995?
25 A. The situation in Sarajevo and around Sarajevo was critical. We
1 were exposed to constant artillery fire. There was a large number of
2 civilian victims. There were shortages of food electricity, water, and
3 this led to further developments whereby all of these things had to be
4 resolved. So that was when plans were made to lift the blockade of the
5 town of Sarajevo. So this went on until sometime in June.
6 Q. All right. You said that there were plans to lift the blockade
7 of Sarajevo. Do you know anything about who ordered the planning of
8 these activities to lift the blockade?
9 A. The Presidency as the supreme commander of the army headed by the
10 president, adopted this decision.
11 Q. Do you remember hearing any views expressed by General Delic
12 relating to this decision?
13 A. Yes. I know that the commander made a comment that this was not
14 the time to carry out such a broad operation because the armija at that
15 point in time did not have enough materiel and equipment for such an
16 extensive action. There were shortages of everything, artillery,
17 ammunition, infantry ammunition, medical personnel that would be needed
18 at times like that. So we were not quite ready but the commander had to
19 carry out the superior's orders, I assume.
20 Q. Very well. And do you recall what the role of General Delic was
21 in that action?
22 A. General Delic's role was to plan and lead or control the action.
23 Q. Can you please tell us, if you remember, how long the operation
25 A. The Sarajevo operation went on from early June until the end of
1 August 1995.
2 Q. Do you remember how involved General Delic was in this action?
3 A. He was very engaged and involved in all areas relating to this
5 Q. What did this mean practically? Can you describe that?
6 A. Practically this meant that he was constantly at forward command
7 posts, that he was touring the corps -- the corps units in order to
8 establish the best possible coordination among units during combat
9 actions to control the activities and this called for permanent
10 activities by the commander.
11 Q. And were you with him all the time throughout that whole action?
12 A. Yes, I was with him the whole time of the action.
13 Q. Do you remember when you left Sarajevo in order to have the
14 General command the combat actions? Do you remember?
15 A. Early June 1995.
16 Q. And after that, did you return to Sarajevo? Do you remember?
17 A. In that period, for some three or four months, we returned to
18 Sarajevo once. The rest of the time we spent with the units. The
19 commander was directly involved in combat actions.
20 Q. Can you please describe what this was like, what was he doing?
21 Was he stationed in one place, did he move from place to place? Can you
22 please tell us?
23 A. It was like this. You cannot be in one place and still manage or
24 lead the whole operation. We kept changing locations constantly, moving
25 from the forward command post at Prokociva Visoko then the Nisici
1 plateau, and in order to tour all of those places without stopping for
2 long, just from Visocica from Proskok you would need some seven to eight
3 hours travelling on the road the way they were then. Then it was also a
4 very complex operation, which meant that we were constantly on the move.
5 Q. All right. Please, do you remember whether General Delic
6 received or did not receive any documents during the action?
7 A. No, General Delic did not receive any documents in that period
8 because that is something that would have been handed to me first, so,
9 for sure, he didn't receive any documents.
10 Q. So General Delic was evidently absent. So how did the staff
11 function, according to what you know?
12 A. Just like any other staff, the commander, of course, has his
13 deputies, he has the Chief of Staff. They all are carrying out their own
14 assignments, naturally.
15 Q. All right.
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me, I fail to understand what the witness
17 has just told us, because in my -- in my understanding, it would be very
18 difficult to -- to lead a major operation of this kind without receiving
19 or indeed sending any documents from the units that worked under his
21 So I would like you to explain to the Court how -- how the
22 communication was done then.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Through the direct participation of
24 the commander in the action he was able to do that. There was no need
25 for the reports to be sent to him because he was out in the field. We
1 toured all the locations where combat activities were ongoing.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: But I'm sure that -- that all the units in the
3 corps and the brigade and the battalions would send documents up through
4 the system, documents that were intended to reach General Delic.
5 So how did he get that information?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. The General did not receive
7 that information. If the information did arrive, it reached the Chief of
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: And would the Chief of Staff then relay orally
10 the information to General Delic? Is that how it functioned?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that, because I was
12 not present when these conversations would take place.
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: I see. Thank you.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.
15 Q. Can you tell us for the sake of the record slowly, please, what
16 were these locations where you said the corps had its forward command
17 posts, or you also mentioned the locations General Delic visited. Can
18 you take them one by one slowly, please?
19 A. Proskok, a location on Mount Igman; Visocica, just above Visoko;
20 Orahovo, above Ilijas; and the Nisici plateau.
21 Q. All right. To your knowledge, when did the combat activities
22 relating to the lifting of the blockade of Sarajevo gain momentum? When
23 did they come to a head?
24 A. It was between the 10th and the 17th of July, 1995. That was the
25 time when the fighting was at its highest.
1 Q. Do you recall where it was in that period of time you mentioned,
2 between the 10th and the 17th of July of 1995, that General Delic was to
3 be found?
4 A. As I said earlier on, we were visiting parts of the Sarajevo
5 battlefield. All that time.
6 Q. You mentioned Proskok and Visocica how far were these locations
7 from Sarajevo?
8 A. To reach Visocica from Proskok, and the circumstances and
9 conditions at the time and the roads in place it took you some seven to
10 eight hours to make the journey.
11 Q. Perhaps I misunderstood your answer. But let me ask you this:
12 What is the distance between Visocica and Proskok on the one hand and
13 Sarajevo on the other?
14 A. Do you know as the crow flies or along the roadways.
15 Q. I mean along the roadways that enabled you to reach Sarajevo at
16 the time.
17 A. That's what I meant when I said some seven to eight hours.
18 Q. Very well. I will be referring to July 1995.
19 Did you learn of some events taking place in Eastern Bosnia at
20 that time?
21 A. Yes, we heard of the exodus of the Eastern Bosnia region that
22 massacre had been committed on the civilian population and that an exodus
23 of the civilian population took place not only in Srebrenica and Zepa
24 both of which were UN protected areas.
25 Q. Do you remember how General Delic came to learn about these
2 A. General Delic learnt about these events through the 2nd Corps.
3 Q. Did he take any action or do anything in relation to that?
4 A. Since at that point in time the commander was preoccupied with
5 the Sarajevo action, some five to seven days later, we set out for the
6 Tuzla region. That's to say into the AOR of the 2nd Corps where the
7 commander stayed in Kladanj and Tuzla where refugees were coming in as
8 well as the wounded.
9 Q. Do you recall when this was, approximately?
10 A. It was some seven days later so the 18th or the 19th of July.
11 Q. Of which year?
12 A. 1995.
13 Q. What did General Delic do in fact in the areas of Kladanj and
15 A. We were in the area where civilians were coming in and the
16 commander spoke to them. These were situations of grave hardship when
17 you see the wounded, individuals whose entire families were killed, when
18 you spoke to people who managed to survive these atrocities. It was very
20 Q. Do you recall what it was that happened later on, after the 19th
21 and the 20th of July, 1995?
22 A. We went to Split and stayed there some two to three days.
23 Q. Thank you. When you say, "we went to Split," who do you mean?
24 A. General Delic and I.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can the witness now
2 be shown D1005, 1005.
3 For the record, this is an excerpt from the daily information
4 bulletin of the BH army for the date of the 23rd of July, 1995.
5 And can you please zoom in on the bottom right column in the
6 Bosnian version. Thank you very much.
7 Q. You see that the text reads: Yesterday, in Split a meeting of
8 the delegations from Bosnia and Herzegovina and Croatian joint
9 declaration prepared.
10 You told us that you went to Split together with General Delic
11 and do you recall what the -- the motive of that visit was?
12 A. It was precisely the Split declaration as it came to be known
13 later which meant the strengthening of the relations between the Croatian
14 army and the BH army and achievement of peace.
15 Q. Do you recall how long the negotiations took?
16 A. Two to three days.
17 Q. Thank you very much.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this document
19 be assigned an exhibit number.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
21 please be given an exhibit number.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become Exhibit
23 number 1360.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Mr. Dedovic, do you remember where you went next after Split?
2 A. Yes, I do. We went to Krajina to the Bihac region, to the
3 Una-Sana area, which was under strong enemy activity at the time; and the
4 fighters there had to fight two fronts, one was against the fors of
5 Fikret Abdic and the other was against the Serb forces and they were in a
6 very dire situation. They were almost faced with the same fate as befell
7 those in Srebrenica.
8 Q. You mentioned the forces of Fikret Abdic and this wasn't entered
9 in the transcript, did you mention that?
10 A. Yes, Fikret Abdic's forces.
11 Q. Can you tell Their Honours anything about these forces, what do
12 you mean when you say they were faced with two different enemies?
13 A. Yes, on the one hand you had Fikret Abdic, who enjoyed the
14 support of forces from Serbia. He had members of the White Tigers and
15 Arkan's men on his side. They enjoyed support from Serbia, and the other
16 enemy was member of the Serb army.
17 Q. Not earn in the courtroom is familiar with Fikret Abdic. Can you
18 tell us who he is?
19 A. He was a the self-proclaimed of -- president of the
20 self-proclaimed autonomous province of western Bosnia. They set up their
21 own army.
22 Q. Can you tell us his ethnicity?
23 A. He was a Bosniak.
24 Q. Do you recall what General Delic was doing at this time?
25 A. He was quite busy with the activities in Krajina precisely. This
1 meant that he to set up defence line there and everything else that it
2 entailed, and in doing so he had the support of the Croatian forces.
3 What did this mean? In that period of time we went often to Zagreb to
4 visit General Zvonimir Cervenko, I recall this quite well. And this had
5 to do the cooperation between the two armies in that geographic area.
6 Q. Would you be so kind as to repeat the General of the Croatian
7 army's name?
8 A. General Zvonimir Cervenko.
9 Q. Very well. Do you recall whether there were any visits abroad in
10 this period of time?
11 A. Yes. We were part of an extended military delegation that
12 visited Iran for some five to six days. Upon our return from Iran,
13 Commander Rasim Delic had meetings with representatives of the Croatian
15 Q. Thank you very much. Let us look at document D1020, and then I
16 will have some other questions for you.
17 For the record, this is another excerpt from the daily
18 information bulletin issued from the press centre of the army dated 2nd
19 of September, 1995.
20 Can we zoom in on the first bit of the document in the Bosnian
21 version, the delegation of the BH army in Iran. The 28th of August is
22 mentioned here. Were you referring to a visit to Iran in this
23 time-period or --
24 A. Yes, this was precisely the time-period when this visit took
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can this document be assigned an
2 exhibit number, please.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Vidovic, as you may sense, the Chamber is,
5 again, hesitating, because we are not sure we understand the relevance of
6 this document.
7 If you, as I suspect you might, seek introduction of this
8 document into evidence because of the fact that General Delic was away
9 between 28 August to 31st of August and thus was not present in Sarajevo,
10 then my question to you would be: Is this -- should I then infer that
11 General Delic was not in command during those days, or what is the impact
12 that you want to -- to lead out of this document?
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this was the time when
14 preparations were taking place for the action that is the subject of the
15 indictment. The Prosecutor alleged that General Delic had preliminary
16 information early on about the preparations that were taking place for
17 this action.
18 What I'm trying to show with this is where General Delic was in
19 fact at that point in time and what he was doing.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: But the fact that he was physically abroad, does
21 that, in the view of the Defence, imply that he was not in control of
22 what happened during those days when he was absent?
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, yes. The
24 Defence, at that time, he was represented by other persons and also this
25 document is important to us. The dates are important, just for the sake
1 of information or knowledge.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: You did not ask for the admission?
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I did, Your Honour. I am
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, I challenge you to show me where
8 you asked on the transcript.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, on my screen it's on
10 page 47, line 19, I think. Yes, 19 and 20.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Vidovic.
12 The document is admitted into evidence. May it please be given
13 an exhibit number.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become Exhibit
15 number 1361.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
17 I apologise, Madam Vidovic.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
19 I would like the witness to look at Exhibit D1021, please.
20 For the transcript, it's an article from the Vecernje Novine
21 daily for the 2nd and 3rd of September, 1995. And the article is
22 entitled Delic- Cervenko meeting, successful and useful cooperation.
23 Witness do you see that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Before, you mentioned that General Delic after returning from
1 Iran met with General Cervenko. Can you please comment whether this was
2 at this time?
3 A. Yes, that was precisely at this time.
4 Q. Do you see the dates here, the 2nd and the 3rd of September?
5 A. The 2nd and the 3rd of September.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours can the document be
8 given a exhibit number, please.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
10 please be given an exhibit number.
11 THE REGISTRAR: The document will become Exhibit number 1362.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mr. Dedovic, have I been putting many questions to you that I am
15 aware that you might have difficulty recollecting the answers to, but I
16 would like to ask you the following.
17 You recall that until the 3rd of September, according to this
18 article and then after returning from Iran you stayed in Zagreb for two
19 or three days?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you remember what happened after that? Do you remember what
22 General Delic was doing, what happened after the 3rd of September, 1995?
23 A. We came back to tour the Sarajevo front. We spent a couple of
24 days there and then after that, I think, on the 8th or 9th of September,
25 we went to Malaysia.
1 Q. Can you please tell us again where you went?
2 A. We went to Malaysia, because at the time, there was a conference
3 of Islamic countries for assistance to Bosnia and Herzegovina that was
4 being held in Malaysia.
5 Q. Do you remember how long this flight lasted? First of all, I
6 want to ask you this, do you remember when the conference began?
7 A. Yes, the conference began on the 9th of September, and it went on
8 until the 16th of September. The trip to the destination, the actual
9 flight, took some 13 or 13 and a half hours. We had to leave one day
10 early in order to get to the conference in time. Actually, we got there
11 a day before it began.
12 Q. When you say you arrived the day before the conference, that
13 means --
14 A. That means the 8th of September.
15 Q. Thank you. Do you remember what General Delic was doing during
16 the conference?
17 A. The General was very busy. He was fully involved because all the
18 Islamic countries representatives who were taking part in the conference
19 wanted to speak with the commander about the kind of help needed by
20 Bosnia and Herzegovina which would not have survived at that time without
21 the assistance of Islamic countries. So they all wished individually or
22 as a delegation to speak with the General, which the commander, of
23 course, made possible for them. He devoted his whole time to them.
24 Q. I would like to ask you this now: In your testimony so far, you
25 said that you were travelling with the General outside of Bosnia and
1 Herzegovina, so I want to ask you this: Were there any contacts between
2 General Delic and yourself with his office while he was absent? Was
3 there any contact with his subordinates?
4 A. No. There was no contact by General Delic either with his office
5 or his subordinates, because if he had wanted to get in touch with
6 anyone, he would have done it through me. I would have made that
7 connection. But talking with the office or the corps command in those
8 conditions, I mean, it was an open line, it could have been tapped, so
9 the General is a cautious man; so he was very careful about things like
11 Q. I wanted to ask you this: Why would he inform you? Why would he
12 have asked you to set the connection up?
13 A. Well, General Delic did not speak English, so it was up to me
14 then for that reason to do it.
15 Q. Thank you. According to your knowledge, during the stay in
16 Malaysia did the General have any contacts with his subordinates?
17 A. No, he didn't. He had wanted to get in touch with them, he would
18 have done it with my assistance.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Who did you have to speak English to, sir?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Asking for the dialing codes and to
21 have an outside line from the country where you were in required some
22 talking. We didn't have any kind of portable or satellite telephones in
23 order to establish communication.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Dialing codes you get on hotel literature. He
25 could just read that himself. He doesn't need to talk to anyone to get
1 that, does he? He knows the dialing code for Sarajevo, and he would know
2 it even from Malaysia.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, no, the commander, as a rule,
4 did not actually do the dialing himself or establishing of the
5 communications. This was something that I did.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. That is a different story. Sorry, the
7 problem was not English, the problem was there was protocol.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I was just actually about to
9 ask that.
10 Q. Other than English, was there any other reason why you would do
12 A. Well, from the security point of view, and the topic of the
13 conversation, that was something that he had to take into consideration
14 in view that it was an open line, whether he wanted to risk that or not.
15 Q. Did you have any rules of your own? Just wait a little bit,
16 please. Take it slowly. Just wait for me to finish.
17 You, as General Delic's escort, did you have your own rules that
18 you had to respect?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you. I want to ask you something else now.
21 During this trip to Malaysia, do you remember if the General had
22 maps, if he took any maps with him?
23 A. No, General Delic did not carry any maps with him. I was
24 carrying his personal items. It was just a brief case where
25 General Delic kept a notebook.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: You didn't carry any maps in that brief case?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no maps.
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can the witness look
4 at Exhibit 1078 now, please.
5 For the transcript, this is an excerpt from the duty operations
6 officer for the 14th and 15th of September, 1995. From the duty
7 operation officer's diary for those dates.
8 Q. Can you please look at this paragraph, Mr. Dedovic. Can you read
9 what it says in paragraph marked with the number 4?
10 A. Yes. Should I read it?
11 Q. Well, I quote it for you what it says is that at 1900 hours BH
12 army commander General Delic rang and asked about the situation in the
13 area of responsibility of the 1st Corps this was at 1900 hours on the
14 14th/15th September 1995.
15 You said that General Delic did not initiate any contacts. Can
16 you comment on what it says here, in this document?
17 A. Yes, I can comment.
18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure whether he said he
19 can or cannot comment.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps I can assist.
21 My question was not precisely noted down in the transcript, if this is
22 the problem.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Go ahead.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Please, I just want to clarify my question to you.
1 Testifying you said that General Delic did not establish contacts
2 by telephone with his subordinates. There was a call recorded here and
3 an alleged call by General Delic. I would like you to comment on that,
4 if you can.
5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the first part of
6 the answer of the witness.
7 A. In view of that, the state of health of General Delic at the time
8 who had an elevated blood sugar our team that went to Malaysia also
9 included a doctor Bosanko Horozic, who was a diabetes specialist so what
10 I want to say with this. I want to say that General Delic had to take
11 medicines on time in view of the time distance which was some six to
12 seven hours, meaning that our time, if it was 1900 hours in Malaysia it
13 was then 2.00 in the morning. That means that according to all of this
14 and in view of the activities that the commander had over those days, at
15 that time he definitely would not have been able to call.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry --
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. I would just like to ask you --
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, there are a number of confusing
20 issues for me around this discussion and this document.
21 First of all, I don't think what the witness said now answers the
22 question you asked. And I don't see how relevant it is to the question.
23 Secondly, we have just been told that this is a duty officer's
24 diary. I don't know duty -- and I see there is 3rd Corps at the bottom.
25 I don't know where this duty officer is stationed and on what day is this
1 telephone discussion. I know you have said it is 14th/15th of
2 September and -- okay. So General Delic would have been in Malaysia at
3 the time.
4 Can we just get the answer to your question.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I will, Your Honours.
6 Obviously the transcript did not catch the first part of the witness's
8 Q. Witness, please, I asked you if you can comment on this part of
9 this document that refers to the telephone call or, rather, a call,
10 telephone call by General Delic which was received by the 3rd Corps at
11 1900 hours. And you answered but the first part of your answer was not
12 included in the transcript, and the interpreters noted that in the
14 Please, can you comment on this?
15 A. At that time and it had to do with the conference in view of the
16 fact that General Delic was suffering from diabetes we had a doctor with
17 us in our team his name was Bosanko Horozic, who was a specialist for
18 diabetes. The commander was being administered insulin, so in view of
19 the activities that he was performing over those few days he was quite
20 busy and if we take into account the time difference, 1900 hours here, is
21 2.00 in the mourning in Malaysia, so in that time-period, the commander
22 was probably sleeping. He didn't have any activities because he had to
23 stick to doctor's instructions.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours if I can say I don't
25 know what is happening the witness is answering quite clearly, but the
1 answer is not being correctly reflected I don't know if it is the
2 interpretation or what it is. It does not reflect what the witness is
3 saying. It's very confusing.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, the whole story about
5 General Delic's condition and health while in Kuala Lumpur has nothing to
6 do with the question you put. It may very well be that the witness has
7 given an answer. If can you ask him to give a short concise and relevant
8 answer to your question, please. He is asked to comment on the fact that
9 he testified that General Delic didn't normally make calls now there is a
10 record of a call.
11 What has his health got to do with the question? I would think
12 you should control your witness too, Madam Vidovic.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness is
14 answering what the connection is, but the transcript does not reflect
15 that. That is the problem. The witness is saying that the man was sick
16 and that he was asleep at that time.
17 Q. Witness, can you please simply say what you were explaining now.
18 Why are you mention a doctor. Why are you mentioning this?
19 A. Because the General was sticking to the instructions of the
20 doctor in view of the seven hour time difference in view of the fact that
21 it was 2.00 a.m. in Malaysia and 7.00 p.m. in Bosnia at the time, this
22 cannot stand, because the General's definitely asleep at that time, and I
23 want to add something else.
24 In principle if the commander even spoke, he would talk with the
25 corps commanders not with duty operations officers. He asked for
1 information firsthand. He would not ask information from the duty
2 centre. I mean, it's a question of how much information they would have
4 Q. Thank you very much.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, let me just hold this piece of answer.
6 I don't know, one, where the witness gets 2.00 a.m. and 7.00 p.m.
7 because there call was made at 9.30 in the morning, number one or what is
8 it. Sorry, 7.00 in the evening, okay, fair enough.
9 Is the answer is that -- is the witness denying that this call
10 could have been made by General Delic is that the purpose of all this
11 explanation, because he was asleep at that time?
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Witness, can you answer this, please.
14 A. Yes. That was the time difference. When it was 7 p.m. local
15 time, it was 2.00 a.m. in Malaysia, and I know that the commander was
16 sleeping at such wee hours. He was not making phone calls.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. You see that had never come up. It is
18 coming up now for the first time, after three or four attempts. I mean,
19 I'm talking about the English part of it.
20 Yes, you may proceed, Madam Vidovic.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Let me ask you this: In connection with Malaysia and the trip
23 General Delic made, how did the journalists and the public at large in
24 Bosnia and Herzegovina view this. Do you recall?
25 A. Yes, I do. They had a negative view of all the visits undertaken
1 by General Delic at the time. They would make statements to the effect
2 that General Delic was travelling around the world while Bosnia was at
3 war, which shows that they simply did not grasp what it was that he was
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this might be the
6 right time for a break.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.
8 We will take a break and come back at quarter to 6.00.
9 Court adjourned.
10 --- Recess taken at 5.14 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 5.43 p.m.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. Mr. Dedovic, before the break, we left off as I was asking you
15 about the reaction on the part of the media and the public at large to
16 the trips that General Delic undertook in September 1995.
17 And I would like now to show the witness D768. It's a document
18 from the moral guidance administration dated 24th of September, 1995.
19 I apologise, it's Exhibit 768; my apologies.
20 The document is titled information on the negative publicity in
21 some of the media.
22 Can the witness be shown page 3 of the document, please. The
23 second paragraph in the Bosnian version, which is page 2, the last
24 paragraph on that page of the English version. Page 2 of the English
25 version and page 3 of the Bosnian version. Thank you.
1 Witness, I'll direct your attention to the second paragraph,
2 which reads:
3 "The authority of the commander of the General Staff, army
4 General Rasim Delic, was treated with open irony in an article entitled
5 "Sala Masala" what a joke by Sead Fetahagic in Oslobodjenje of 18
6 September 1995 and similarly in an article entitled 51 per cent of Bosnia
7 and Herzegovina liberated by Senad Avdic in Slobodna Bosna, issue 2, 21
8 September 1995. The following inappropriate comparison was made:
9 Dudakovic almost in Banja Luka, Delic almost in Kuala Lumpur.
10 Do you recall this, witness?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Does this text reflect the reaction on the part of the media?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you recall whether General Delic made any statements for the
15 media thereafter?
16 A. I believe he did.
17 Q. What was it about?
18 A. It was in relation to such texts and head lines that
19 General Delic was trying to justify his actions before the mass media.
20 But this was all due to the fact that they did not in fact know what
21 General Delic's mission had been, as I already stated.
22 Q. Thank you. Based on what you can remember, when was it that
23 returned from Malaysia?
24 A. We came back from Malaysia on the 17th of September.
25 Q. Do you recall where it was that you went next?
1 A. We went to the area of Bosnian Krajina where there was fierce
2 fighting going on.
3 Q. When I asked you about where it was that you arrived, I meant by
5 A. We landed in Zagreb where the commander met with representatives
6 of the Croatian army again, and after that meeting, we returned to
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness now be shown
9 Exhibit 1292. Exhibit 1292.
10 Q. Witness, look at the preamble of the document. You see that the
11 date is the 20th of September. Look at the initial part of the document,
12 or, rather, can I read it out for you.
13 A summit meeting was held in Zagreb on the 19 September 1995
14 between delegations from the republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina
15 Mr. Alija Izetbegovic and army General Rasim Delic and Croatia Mr. Franjo
16 Tudjman, Mr. Susak and General Cervenko in the presence of Mr. Holbrooke,
17 General Clark, Mr. Galbraith, US ambassador to Croatian and the mediator
18 for the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Mr. Robert Owen.
19 You a moment ago that you landed in Zagreb where General Delic
20 had some meetings?
21 A. It was precisely to these meetings that I was referring.
22 Q. You mean the names -- the meeting mentioned in this document?
23 Witness, please speak up, I know you're tired by now.
24 A. Very well.
25 Q. Do you recall how long you stayed in Zagreb in relation to these
2 A. I believe we stayed there for two days.
3 Q. The document can now be put away, please.
4 Do you remember going somewhere after the 19th of September,
5 1995? You said a moment ago that you returned to Bosnia.
6 A. Yes. Specifically to the Bihac area where there were combat
7 activities carried out by our units in that time-period.
8 Q. Very well. You say that combat activities were being conducted.
9 Did everything go to plan?
10 A. No. Not everything went to plan because the coordination between
11 the BH army forces and the Croatian army forces was not that good, and
12 General Delic's task was to ensure that the level of coordination between
13 the respective armies was as good as could be achieved.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness now be shown
16 Exhibit 1038.
17 Your Honours, I apologise. It is not an exhibit; it's a D
18 document. D1038.
19 As you can see, it's a photograph.
20 Mr. Dedovic, do you see the photograph clearly.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you assist us by telling us whether you can recognise anyone
23 on this photograph?
24 A. Yes, I do. Do I need to indicate the individuals?
25 Q. Yes, please. I'll ask you to identify the persons here one by
1 one. I want the electronic pen to be handed to you.
2 A. General Atif Dudakovic.
3 Q. Can you place number 1 above his head.
4 A. Fine.
5 Q. Do you recognise anyone else?
6 A. Head of office, Ferid Buljubasic.
7 Q. The second escort?
8 A. Ajhan, army General Rasim Delic. And this is me.
9 Q. Person number 5 is you?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you remember when it was that the photograph was taken?
12 A. It was in early Autumn 1995.
13 Q. A moment ago you told us that you went to the Bosnian Krajina.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Was the photograph made at the time or in a different
17 A. It was made precisely in that time-period.
18 Q. Can you tell us where it was taken?
19 A. I don't know the exact location but it was in the general area of
20 Bihac. I wouldn't be able to tell you the specific location.
21 Q. Thank you. Do you remember how long you stayed in the area with
22 General Delic?
23 A. We stayed there for a couple of days. Next, we visited Zenica
24 and Zavidovici which was on or around the 22nd or 23rd of September.
25 Q. Do you remember how long you stayed in Zenica and Zavidovici for?
1 A. It was a very short stay because we visited the 2nd Corps.
2 Q. When you say that you visited the 2nd Corps, where was that
4 A. We went into the AOR of the 2nd Corps, specifically to the -- to
5 a part of the Vozuca battlefield Petrovo Selo, which was in the area of
6 responsibility of the 2nd Corps.
7 Q. Thank you. Do you recall the events following your visit to
8 Zenica? Did you go to Sarajevo, or elsewhere, if you can remember?
9 A. I think the commander returned to Sarajevo where he had meetings
10 with representatives of the international community. This was the period
11 immediately preceding the signing of the Dayton Accord, and he a great
12 many meetings with representatives of international organisations.
13 Q. Thank you. Before I proceed, I would like the photograph to
14 receive an exhibit number?
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Mundis. Mr. President we have no
16 objection to the photograph going in, but I would ask perhaps it is not
17 clear from the transcript the witness marked the numbers one through
18 five, indicated a number of names, but I think he only tied two of those
19 names to the actual numbers on the photographs but perhaps if he could
20 again just clearly indicate who is -- who's who of the names for each of
21 the numbers that would perhaps be helpful.
22 Madam Vidovic, do you think you can help us with that.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, and I thank
24 my colleague Mundis.
25 Q. Witness, can you answer these questions, please who does number
1 one refer to on this photograph?
2 A. Number 1 is division army General Atif Dudakovic.
3 Q. Atif Dudakovic is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Who does normal two relate to?
6 A. Head of office of the commander, Colonel Ferid Buljubasic.
7 Q. Who -- number 3 refers to on this photograph?
8 A. The second escort --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please repeat the name.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Can you please repeat the name of the second escort because it is
12 not reflected in the transcript.
13 A. Akova Ajhan.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that the name of the second escort.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's number 3.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you're right.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Akova Ajhan. Is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And number 4, who does that refer to?
22 A. Army General Rasim Delic.
23 Q. And number 5, who does that refer to?
24 A. Ismet Dedovic, who was the personal escort of General Delic.
25 Q. You said that's me. Is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you very much. Then the photograph
3 will be admitted into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the photograph will be admitted as
6 Exhibit 1363.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. And before you proceed,
8 Madam Vidovic, I just want to ask a clarification question to the
10 Sir, before Mr. Mundis stood up, you said that you think that the
11 commander returned to Sarajevo where he had meetings with representatives
12 of the international community because that was just before the signing
13 of the Dayton Accord.
14 My question to you is where did you and -- and the second escort
15 go to when he went to Sarajevo?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was with General Delic throughout
17 that whole trip.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. It's just that -- thank you very much.
19 It's just that you said that he went and all this time you have been
20 saying we went.
21 You may proceed, Madam Vidovic.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. This is
23 something that I, too, wanted to clarify.
24 Q. Mr. Dedovic, I would like to ask you something about Vozuca.
25 Earlier you mentioned that General Delic was in the Vozuca area. I think
1 you mentioned on the 22nd of September. Is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. I would like to ask you this: You told us that you were
4 constantly with General Delic. In July, August, September, or October,
5 did you notice General Delic's activities that pertained to the Vozuca
6 pocket action, other than that one visit?
7 A. No. From what I know, General Delic had no activities relating
8 to Vozuca. We didn't even stay in that area except on the 22nd of
9 September. That was the area of responsibility of the 2nd Corps, not the
10 3rd Corps.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like the
12 witness to look at video 32 now.
13 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps while that's coming up it is unclear whether
14 the last photograph was actually tendered and/or admitted into evidence.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: It was admitted as exhibit 1363, Mr. Mundis.
16 Thank you.
17 What are we now playing? Video 32.
18 [Videotape played]
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Mr. Dedovic, I would like to ask you this: Do you recognise this
21 situation that we have just seen in this video footage?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Were you in the escort of General Delic during this event?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. I would like to ask you this now. For a long time -- you spent a
1 long time with General Delic, most of the war. Please, how did you
2 experience what his attitude was towards the civilian population and
3 towards prisoners of war?
4 A. At any point when addressing soldiers, General Delic emphasised
5 the fact that you had to act in accordance with the Geneva Conventions,
6 strictly according to the Geneva Convention rules.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I was just going to ask whether that question is
9 necessary now that he has seen the video anyway. We've got that evidence
10 already from the video.
11 But you may proceed. You have asked a question. Yes, answer it.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just wanted to have
13 this video admitted as part of the evidence.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Vidovic, who is the General speaking to,
15 when was it, and where was it?
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Dedovic, can you please answer this question?
18 A. General Delic gave a speech to the newly formed mixed artillery
19 unit in the area of responsibility of the 3rd Corps.
20 Q. Do you remember the year?
21 A. It was 1995.
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: And when exactly in 1995 was it? Which month?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was September 1995, I think.
24 Late September.
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mid-September 1995. And where was the speech
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the exact location,
3 but I know it was in the area of responsibility of the 3rd Corps.
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may just
5 intervene. The witness said late September. I don't know, perhaps you
6 received the interpretation as mid-September 1995 and you know
7 General Delic was not there. The witness said late September.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: And it was just Judge Harhoff not Judge Moloto who
9 was speaking.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: But this was then shortly after the Vozuca
11 operation, was it?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was the very end of the month of
13 September 1995.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: But tell us, Mr. Dedovic, why would the General
15 remind the newly formed regiment about the duties to respect the
16 Geneva Conventions if that was after a major battle. I mean, this sounds
17 to be me to be a speech that the commander would hold just before a major
18 operation were to be launched, he's telling his soldiers that now we're
19 going to this operation and please do not forget to respect the
20 Geneva Conventions. That would be the gist of the speech. So that is
21 why I'm curious to know where are we -- and why was he holding this
22 speech? Thanks.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The commander, on any occasion not
24 just on the occasion of this speech but on any occasion he would
25 emphasise that the behaviour has to be strictly in accordance to
1 Geneva Convention rules in respect of civilians and prisoners of war. He
2 would emphasise that on any occasion, not just on this speech.
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Maybe, Madam Vidovic, you can help me out,
4 because I need to understand why we are seeing this. I accept that the
5 General would remind his people to of course respect the laws of the war,
6 but it is in -- in proximity to these operations that took place in
7 September 1995 and it is within the area of responsibility of the
8 3rd Corps.
9 So has this anything to do with the crimes charged in the
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this speech does not
12 have anything to do with parts of the indictment, and I believe that this
13 witness said -- I don't believe that this witness said that he knows
14 anything about Vozuca. I think it was just the opposite. The -- he did
15 not deal with Vozuca at all except for the visit that he talked about.
16 The General is charged under the indictment and one of his duties and
17 general duties was to instruct his subordinates about conduct in war
18 conditions, in accordance with provisions of international humanitarian
19 law and that is why I am presenting this evidence here now. I am putting
20 that to the witness, who knows this for sure.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: I accept that, Madam Vidovic. It's just that you
23 can't -- you can't help the Judges or at least you can't help one Judge
24 thinking that it is strange that, on the one hand, we are told that the
25 General did not have any role in the performance of the Vozuca operation,
1 and yet you choose to present us with a video that shows that he was in
2 the area of responsibility, speaking to a newly formed regiment in the
3 3rd Corps, at the same time or approximately at the same time when these
4 actions took place.
5 So you are kindly requested to explain to us then what it means.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Your Honour, this
7 event that is being shown in the video the witness indicates that took
8 place in late September. The Vozuca action took place considerably
9 earlier, according to the indictment, Your Honour.
10 What the General is being charged with took place earlier.
11 Therefore, I really don't see any connection in this context that you are
12 speaking about the witness said that this event took place in the Zenica
13 area. The witness is not connecting this video with the Vozuca events at
14 all. Possibly you didn't understand that. And the actions of the
15 3rd Corps can in no way be connected only with the Vozuca area. We're
16 talking about a vast area in this case.
17 Your Honours, I apologise, I apologise, my colleague is
18 suggesting that a part of the witness's answer is not reflected in the
19 transcript, but I cannot help in this. The witness definitely did
20 mention that Zenica that the video is from the Zenica area.
21 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I need some clarification
22 regarding this video-clip. It may be that I didn't understand properly.
23 But, Witness, you told us, and please correct me if I'm wrong,
24 you told us that after the meeting in Zagreb on the 22nd of September,
25 you went together with General Delic to Sarajevo where he was very busy
1 with negotiations and so forth.
2 Did you understand that properly?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] But now we see him in the area
5 of responsibility of the 3rd Corps and that's end of September. Is that
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] You can't remember the date when
11 this footage was made, can you?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember the exact date,
13 but I know that it was the end of September, definitely.
14 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] This means that he didn't stay
15 all that time in Sarajevo, that he moved about.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This is only one exit from
17 Sarajevo in the course of those activities.
18 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, I just want to say a little concern
20 I have at the back of my mind which arises from your explanation why you
21 want this video in, I understand that General Delic had the
22 responsibility to do what he has just done, but I also know that he is
23 not charged with failing to do that job. He is charged with crimes that
24 are committed by his subordinates.
25 So that's why I tend to share the concern that Judge Harhoff was
1 raising with you.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I tender this video
3 into evidence but it is of course down to you to make the ruling.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The video is admitted in into evidence. May it
6 please be given an exhibit number.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the video will become exhibit
8 number 1364.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Yes, Madam Vidovic.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No further questions, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 Mr. Mundis.
13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Mundis:
15 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Dedovic.
16 A. Good afternoon.
17 Q. My name is Daryl Mundis. I represent the Prosecution in this
18 case. I have a number of questions for you. I want to stress at the
19 outset, sir, that if you don't understand any of my questions just ask me
20 to repeat them, and I will rephrase the question.
21 Can you tell us, sir, a little bit about any military training
22 that you obtained or received prior to the outbreak of the war in Bosnia
23 and Herzegovina.
24 A. Yes. In the former Yugoslav people's army, I was a member of a
25 special purpose unit. I have been training in various sports, and I had
1 been training Judo for more than 20 years. Before the war broke out, I
2 had military experience from the JNA that was at the level of an ordinary
4 Q. And when you tell us, sir, that you been in this special purpose
5 unit in the JNA, can you tell us a little bit about what that special
6 purpose unit was and what type of training you had received?
7 A. This was a reconnaissance/sabotage unit to be precise, that
8 special purpose unit.
9 Q. And what kind of training did you receive to become a member of
10 this reconnaissance/sabotage unit?
11 A. I don't know what the criterion of the then-National Defence
12 secretariats was on the basis of which they assigned conscripts to
13 various specialties. I had been a sportsman myself before joining the
14 service, so maybe that was part of the decision there, because part of
15 the training concerned was also that in martial arts.
16 Q. At the time, sir, that you were appointed as a body-guard or
17 escort to General Delic, did you hold any rank?
18 A. There were no ranks in the army at that time.
19 Q. At the time, sir, that ranks were initiated in the ARBiH, what
20 rank, if any, were you given?
21 A. Initially, my rank was second lieutenant, and I ended my career
22 with the rank of a captain.
23 Q. Now, during the course of the war while you were serving as
24 body-guard or escort to General Delic, did you or were you sent for any
25 additional military training?
1 A. No, not during the war. After the war.
2 Q. Okay. And I take it, sir, that because of this position you
3 held, you were never -- during the course of the war, you were personally
4 never a commander of any type, in terms of commanding any type of unit?
5 A. No. I didn't have any combat unit under my command, no.
6 Q. So you told us in -- identifying a number of people on Exhibit
7 1363, the photograph, you told us about a second escort, Akova Ajhan, I
8 believe his name was. Is that right?
9 A. Yes, that's correct. He was hired periodically.
10 Q. Okay. That anticipates my next question but let me ask it
12 Were the two of you the sole body-guards for General Delic during
13 the war, or were there other people as well who performed this task?
14 A. His son was among the escort of General Delic. Admir Delic was
15 there as well.
16 Q. And, so, just so that we're clear when you say the escort of
17 General Delic, are you telling us that Admir Delic, General Delic's son,
18 also served as a body-guard or when you use the term escort are you
19 referring to something else?
20 A. He was also in -- he was also part of the service providing
21 security for General Delic.
22 Q. Other than providing security for General Delic, what other
23 functions did Admir Delic carry out during the course of the war?
24 A. That was his only duty or function.
25 Q. Now, you told us that this person Akova Ajhan was hired
1 periodically. Can you tell how frequently he was hired? Was it some of
2 the time, most of the time, very rarely, almost always?
3 A. Very rarely.
4 Q. So on all other occasions other than these very rare occasions
5 when Mr. Ajhan was involved, you and Admir Delic constituted the sole
6 security team, close protection team for General Delic?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You told us that you were with General Delic virtually all of the
9 time. Is that right?
10 A. Yes, that's right. Throughout the war, I was with General Delic
11 throughout the war.
12 Q. Now let me just run through a series of different scenarios if
13 you will and tell us if you would typically have been with General Delic
14 during such situations.
15 When General Delic was having meetings, would you generally be
16 present in those meetings or would you wait outside of the room where the
17 meeting was?
18 A. In principle, I didn't attend meetings, conversations or anything
19 of the sort. This was not part of my job. I waited for the General
20 outside the door.
21 Q. Okay. Now, sir, you were aware, were you not, that
22 General Delic, during the war was a member of the extended Presidency?
23 A. Yes. General Delic was a member of the War Presidency.
24 Q. Okay. Now, let me ask you then, to your knowledge,
25 General Delic, when he was in Sarajevo, attended the meetings of the
1 War Presidency, didn't he?
2 A. Yes. When it was possible for him to attend, he did.
3 Q. And when General Delic attended the meetings of the
4 War Presidency, were you in the room or did you wait outside of the room?
5 A. Nobody was admitted into the room, save for the Presidency
6 members. I was always outside of that room.
7 Q. Now, when -- let's talk about other types of meetings. When
8 General Delic would have meetings with, for example, his Chief of Staff,
9 General Enver Hadzihasanovic, would you be present for those types of
10 meetings just General Delic and General Hadzihasanovic, the two of them
11 meeting, would you be present, or would you be outside of the room?
12 A. No. I never personally attended the General's meetings with
13 anyone. My duty was always to be outside of the room where the meeting
14 was taking place, not in that room.
15 Q. Were you ever personally present, Mr. Dedovic, when there were of
16 any discussions or plans for military operations that General Delic
18 A. No. I never attended the planning of any actions.
19 Q. You told us, sir, about a number of occasions when General Delic
20 was outside of Sarajevo, and you specifically indicated or talked about a
21 number of meetings with corps commanders. Is that -- is that correct?
22 A. Yes, that's correct.
23 Q. Do you recall, sir -- do you recall, sir, being present when
24 General Delic met with any of these corps commanders? For example,
25 General Mahmuljin were you ever present when the two of them had a
2 A. No. I was never present in the room where they discussed any
3 activities. I was never in such a room together with them.
4 Q. How about during this visit to the Bihac area where there was a
5 photograph of General Delic with Commander Dudakovic. Do you ever recall
6 attending or being present when General Delic met with General Dudakovic?
7 A. No. I never attended their meetings or their conversations.
8 This was always behind closed doors. It was not my job to be present --
9 during such conversations.
10 Q. What about any meetings between General Delic and the 1st Corps
11 commander, General Karavelic, were you ever, sir, personally present when
12 General Delic was meeting with General Karavelic?
13 A. No. Generally speaking of all of these meetings that you have
14 been referring to, I was never present at any of them, and I was always
15 outside of the rooms where they were held.
16 Q. What about meeting, sir, with journalists? Are you aware of the
17 fact that General Delic may have met with journalists during the course
18 of the war?
19 A. Yes. He did meet with them, because following such meetings they
20 would normally hold press conferences to let the public know what the
21 meetings were about.
22 Q. Were you ever personally present, sir, when General Delic gave
23 interviews to journalists, just a one-on-one kind of interview, perhaps
24 in General Delic's office?
25 A. No. I was not in the commander's office while he was making
1 press statements.
2 Q. Okay. So if I understand what you're saying, sir, is when people
3 would come to see General Delic in his office, you would not be present
4 in those meetings. Is that correct?
5 A. No. I never attended these meetings.
6 Q. And that would be regardless of the fact of whether the visitor
7 was a member of the military or a civilian or a journalist or any other
8 type of person?
9 A. No. I was never there. My only duty was to announce their visit
10 to General Delic. Other than that, I was never present at these
12 Q. And when General Delic was travelling outside of Sarajevo, sir,
13 do you recall any occasion at any location where you personally were in
14 the room when General Delic was having a meeting?
15 A. No. I never was present in the same room where General Delic had
16 a meeting with someone.
17 Q. Okay. And we've talked about the corps commanders or at least a
18 few of them. Does the same hold true, sir, with respect to any other
19 military leaders that General Delic might have met with? That is, you
20 were not present when General Delic met with any other military leaders
21 or commanders?
22 A. No. I had never attended any sort of discussions with officers
23 at any level of the command cadres.
24 Q. What about any meetings that General Delic had with political or
25 civilian authorities? Were you ever present outside of Sarajevo at any
1 such meetings?
2 A. No. I was not present in the meeting rooms.
3 Q. What about meetings, sir, when you travelled with General Delic
4 abroad? Let's focus on that.
5 Do you recall, sir, at any point in time when you were travelling
6 abroad whether you were personally present when General Delic had
7 meetings with any foreign military leaders outside the Bosnia and
9 A. Well, General Delic did have meetings with both military
10 representatives, representatives of NATO, but I did not attend such
11 meetings, as they were held behind closed doors and nobody was admitted
13 Q. And I take it, sir, based on your earlier answers you have just
14 referred to military representatives, representatives of NATO would the
15 same hold true when General Delic met with any HV or HVO Generals outside
16 or other military leaders outside of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
17 A. Yes. In principle, I did not attend -- as a rule I did not
18 attend such meetings and would not be present in the room where they were
20 Q. And I guess the final question in this series would be, sir,
21 foreign political or civilian authorities, when General Delic was
22 travelling outside of Bosnia and Herzegovina and met with foreign
23 diplomats or political or civilian leaders were you ever personally
24 present in the room when those meetings took place?
25 A. No I was never present during discussions, no.
1 Q. So based on these answers it would be fair to say, would it not,
2 that throughout the time-period that you were serving as General Delic's
3 body-guard, you were never present personally at any meeting that
4 General Delic had with any military or civilian authority.
5 A. No, I never attended these discussions.
6 Q. Now, let's turn to another subject, and that has to do, sir, with
7 your duties or responsibilities. Can you tell a little bit about what
8 your duties entailed during the time-period that you served as an escort
9 or body-guard for General Delic.
10 A. The duties included providing security for the commander while in
11 a location or on the move, and therefore those were my duties to provide
12 security for the commander while in a location or on the move.
13 Q. Okay. I'd like to ask you some peripheral questions on these
14 duties because based on the answers that you gave to my learned colleague
15 Madam Vidovic it seemed that you did a few other things as well, and I'd
16 like to ask you if you could perhaps clarify some of these things for us.
17 You seem to imply, sir, that when you were in Malaysia with
18 General Delic, in the autumn of 1995, that you would have been the person
19 who would have dialed the telephone for him because General Delic doesn't
20 speak English. Is that your testimony, sir?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And it was a bit unclear from where I'm sitting anyway whether
23 you would have done that telephone dialing because of the fact that
24 General Delic doesn't speak English or was it because of reasons
25 concerning protocol?
1 A. In principle, it was for security reasons. It meant the
2 opening -- it meant that there was an open line, that could be
3 eavesdropped and that was to be avoided. So it depended on who was on
4 the other end of the line.
5 Q. I'm not sure if I understand your answer, to be quite frank.
6 Let me try to see if I can understand what you're saying.
7 My question, sir, was really whether you were doing the dialing
8 of the telephone because of the fact that General Delic didn't speak
9 English or was it because of issues involving protocol and now you have
10 raised security concerns about open telephone lines.
11 Can you perhaps tell us exactly why it was that you would have
12 been involved in dialing a telephone number from Malaysia, if any phone
13 calls were made?
14 A. From the security aspect.
15 Q. Well, if you're concerns, sir, were security, what difference
16 would it have made whether you were on the phone or General Delic was on
17 the phone? I don't understand -- I don't understand what the difference
18 would be. If you were concerned about open phone lines, what difference
19 does it make who was on the phone?
20 A. Well, it was up to the security assessment, to see who the
21 conversation would take place with whether it was going to be with the
22 command whether it was going to be the office since it was an open line
23 that is eavesdropped and important matters should not be discussed over
25 Q. I think we all understand that, sir. But my question really was
1 and I would like to focus your attention on this period when you were in
2 Malaysia with General Delic.
3 Can you tell us how it was that you would make a security
4 assessment concerning whether or not the phone lines were secure?
5 A. That was part of my job. That was my -- one of my duties.
6 Precisely that, to assess security. Based on my security assessment as
7 to whether the line was safe or not, the contact was made.
8 Q. Okay. Now, let me ask you this: When you were on this mission
9 or trip to Malaysia with General Delic who else was present, other than
10 the two of you?
11 A. It was a large delegation, including representatives of the
12 politics. We had journalists Senad Kamenica, Dr. Bosanko Horozic, who
13 were also with us. And I can't remember all the names of those who were
14 a part of the delegation.
15 Q. I think the witness said there was a journalist whose name was
16 Senad -- could you recall the name of the journalist?
17 A. Senad Kamenica.
18 Q. Now, other than yourself and General Delic, who else in the
19 delegation was a member of the ARBiH?
20 A. General Delic's son, Admir Delic.
21 Q. Anyone else that you remember?
22 A. I can't remember who else was part of the delegation.
23 Q. Okay. Now, let me ask you about this security assessment
24 concerning the phone line.
25 What steps, if any, did you take to make this security assessment
1 concerning the phone line while you were in Malaysia?
2 A. Since the lines were open lines, we did not make contact with
3 Sarajevo or any other centres in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Other than that, we
4 didn't have portable phones or satellite phone that would enable to us
5 establish safer connections.
6 Q. Where did you stay in Malaysia when you were there?
7 A. We were accommodated in a hotel that I can't remember in Kuala
8 Lumpur. I know we were in Kuala Lumpur.
9 Q. Let's for the moment -- let's leave Malaysia behind us.
10 When you were travelling with General Delic in Bosnia and
11 Herzegovina, what type of security assessments did you make concerning
12 communication systems? We'll start with communication systems in
14 A. I don't know which communication systems you have in mind. Is it
15 telephone systems, radio relay systems? What exactly are you referring
17 Q. Let's start with telephone systems. What steps did you take as
18 General Delic's body-guard to make security assessments concerning
19 telephone lines that General Delic might have used?
20 A. The telephone lines -- well, the telephone lines were pretty bad.
21 All the information, all the information, the phone-tapping, this was
22 something that we received all the information through the communication
24 At that point in time we had a very bad communication system.
25 The telephones and the radio relay devices were outdated and the
1 aggressor of course had devices with which at any point in time they to
2 listen in to the telephones and to the radio relay devices, and they were
3 covering that at all times; and they were eavesdropping.
4 Q. Can you tell us, sir, about any type of satellite phones or
5 mobile phones that General Delic might have had during the course of the
7 A. We never had satellite telephones or portable telephone devices.
8 Q. Ever during the course of the war. Is that your testimony, sir?
9 A. Yes, throughout the war we did not have such kind of devices.
10 Q. Okay. Let me ask you about a few of your other duties in the
11 time remaining for us today.
12 You told us -- or in response to a question from my learned
13 colleague from the Defence, you mentioned that you were carrying
14 General Delic's brief case. Do you remember saying that, sir?
15 A. Yes, I said that.
16 Q. Was that something that you normally would have had to do as part
17 of his security detail, carry bags?
18 A. Well, not to carry his bags. I carried his personal brief case,
19 in which he carried his -- well, in which he kept his notebook.
20 Q. Okay. In response to a question I believe from the Presiding
21 Judge, you told us that, at least with respect to this trip to Malaysia,
22 that General Delic did not have any maps in his personal brief case. Is
23 that -- is that your testimony, sir?
24 A. Yes, that was my answer. General Delic did not take any maps
25 with him.
1 Q. Did your duties, sir, entail packing General Delic's personal
2 brief case?
3 A. Yes. I would prepare the things that the commander would take
4 with him.
5 Q. Okay. And how would you know what things the commander wanted to
6 take with him?
7 A. The commander would tell me which things he needed, so I would
8 get that ready.
9 Q. Okay. Now, what were your duties, if any, concerning handling of
10 documents that were addressed to General Delic? Did you have any
11 responsibility concerning documents addressed to General Delic?
12 A. I did not have any contacts with the documents or any
13 documentation that was sent to General Delic.
14 Q. And just so we're then clear, sir, on no occasion, to the best of
15 your recollection, did you ever hand General Delic any documents coming
16 from anyone else?
17 A. No. I personally did not hand to the commander any document.
18 Q. Okay. So you don't know what documents General Delic may have
19 been handed or not, because you weren't involved in personally handed
20 documents to him.
21 A. No, I did not take part in that. I don't know anything about
23 Q. Okay. Now, you told us earlier today, Mr. Dedovic, or you've
24 spent actually a good part of your testimony today talking about where
25 you and General Delic travelled to during the course of the war.
1 Did you keep, sir, any kind of diary indicating where you were at
2 various points in time during the war?
3 A. No. I never kept any kind of diary with dates and places that we
5 Q. How about any kind of official log-book? Did you maintain, as
6 part of your duties or responsibilities, any kind of log-book or official
7 document, official document that would have indicated where General Delic
8 was travelling?
9 A. No. I did not have to maintain such things.
10 Q. Why not? There was no requirement?
11 A. That's true, there was no requirement. I did not have to keep
12 any records.
13 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I note the time. I think this would
14 be a convenient spot perhaps to adjourn for the day.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed. We will adjourn for today, to tomorrow at
16 quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon in the same court.
17 Court adjourned.
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.57 p.m.,
19 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 9th day of
20 April, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.