1 Wednesday, 9 April 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everyone in and around the
8 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours, good afternoon to
10 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-83-T, The
11 Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Could we have appearances
13 for the day, starting with the Prosecution.
14 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon, Your
15 Honours, to my colleagues on the Defence and everyone in and around the
16 courtroom. Daryl Mundis for the Prosecution, assisted by
17 Alma Imamovic-Ivanov our case manager.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much and for the Defence.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good
20 afternoon to my colleagues from the OTP, to everybody in and around the
21 courtroom. Vasvija Vidovic and Nicholas Robson for the Defence of
22 General Delic with legal assistant Lejla Gluhic.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
24 Good afternoon to you, sir, Mr. Dedovic.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I just remind you that you are still bound by
2 the declaration you made at the beginning of your testimony yesterday to
3 tell the truth the whole truth and nothing else but the truth, okay?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
6 Yes, Mr. Mundis.
7 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 WITNESS: ISMET DEDOVIC [Resumed]
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 Cross-examination by Mr. Mundis: [Continued]
11 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Dedovic.
12 A. Good afternoon to you too.
13 Q. Yesterday, sir, I asked you a number of questions about meetings
14 and I wanted to just touch on a few other topics concerning any meetings
15 that General Delic may have had during the time-period that you were
16 serving as his body-guard.
17 We spoke yesterday, sir, about, in particular corps commanders,
18 meetings with corps commanders and my first question is are you aware of
19 any other meetings that General Delic may have had with Main Staff
20 officers, such as Mr. Jasarevic or Mr. Arnautovic?
21 A. I did not attend such meetings. The commander did have these
22 meetings, but I did not attend them.
23 Q. And so I take it then, sir, that you're not familiar or aware
24 about what was discussed at any of those meetings between General Delic
25 and Mr. Jasarevic or Mr. Arnautovic?
1 A. No. Because I was not present at the meetings.
2 Q. Sir, as part of your duties or responsibilities, did you
3 personally have any contact with any officers of the ARBiH military
4 security in Sarajevo?
5 A. No, I didn't, because I belonged to General Delic's office.
6 Q. Same question, sir, with respect to any communication that you
7 may have had with military -- ARBiH military security in the forward
8 command post in Kakanj.
9 A. No, no contacts.
10 Q. What about with any ARBiH military security personnel who may
11 have been stationed at the -- in the Gloc at Visoko?
12 A. No. I did not have or maintain any contacts with members of
13 military security.
14 Q. Now, let me ask just a few questions concerning any planning or
15 preparatory steps that you needed to take as part of your duties
16 concerning the protection of General Delic.
17 When you were planning trips or making visits outside of
18 Sarajevo, did you have any meetings with any military security or
19 military intelligence people, in terms of determining threat assessments
20 against General Delic?
21 A. No. I didn't have any contacts with representatives of military
22 security or military intelligence. I was serving in the corps without
23 any contacts with the military security administration.
24 Q. Okay. I'm not sure if this perhaps was a translation error. You
25 say you were serving in the corps without any contacts? Is that what you
1 said, sir, or is this perhaps a translation error?
2 A. No, no I wasn't serving in the corps.
3 Q. Oh okay. Let me ask you this: Did you, prior to -- well, let me
4 just ask you in more general. During the time that you served as the
5 body-guard or escort to General Delic, were you making any assessments to
6 any security threats against his person?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. How did you do that, sir? What did you do? Who did you consult
9 with? What type of information were you consulting?
10 A. When going -- I would go out into the field and by seeing what
11 the situation was out in the field, I would change the routes we took,
12 but I did not consult anyone, including military security administration
13 on these matters.
14 Q. So I take it, then, from your previous answer what you were doing
15 in effect was some kind of advance trips, going into the field and making
16 these independent assessments on your own. Is that what you were doing?
17 A. No, I didn't make assessments in advance of the trip, but I would
18 make my decisions as we would go out into the field.
19 Q. And you would be -- would you be travelling, sir, in the same
20 vehicle as General Delic during these trips in the field?
21 A. Yes, in the same vehicle.
22 Q. Well, can you explain to us, sir, how, if you were in the same
23 vehicle with General Delic you would be in a position to be making
24 determinations as to which routes should be taken, if you were in the
25 vehicle at the time? What type of information were you relying on to
1 make these assessments?
2 A. On the basis of my own assessment, and I never used the same
3 route twice.
4 Q. What did you base these assessments on?
5 A. It was for security reasons as a preventative measure.
6 Q. Okay. But let me just make sure that I understand what you told
7 us a few moments ago.
8 At any point in time during the war when you were serving as
9 General Delic's protection officer, did you receive any specific
10 information about threats to him, to his person from any outside source?
11 A. No. I never received any sort of information that would deal
12 with the -- that would be a security threat to General Delic.
13 Q. Let me turn then to another topic that you testified about at
14 length yesterday and that concerns communications.
15 I believe yesterday and I don't have, unfortunately, the full
16 paginated version. But yesterday at page 7 of the transcript, sir, you
17 told us in response to a question from Madam Vidovic that among your
18 duties or responsibilities was to announce that General Delic would be
19 visiting specific places or locations. Is that correct, sir?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And I take it, because of the nature of your work and the
22 position that General Delic held, that these announcements were not
23 something, as a general rule, that would be made available to the public?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Yes, they would be made available to the public; or no, they
1 would not be made available to the public?
2 A. They would not be available to the public.
3 Q. And I believe, sir, you also told us yesterday, again, this is
4 reflected on page 39 and 40 of the transcript, that during the Sarajevo
5 operation that commenced in early June 1995 and which ran until the end
6 of August 1995, General Delic was constantly at forward command posts and
7 touring various units in different corps to establish coordination among
8 those units with respect to the Sarajevo operation. Is that correct,
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, correct.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. The
14 witness never made such a statement. Did he not give this time-frame.
15 Quite the contrary, he described a series of trips he made with
16 General Delic in the month of July. That is why the Prosecutor should
17 specify the time-frame the question refers to. Otherwise, the question
18 as put is confusing.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, the Prosecutor has specified a
20 time, early June 1995 to August 1995, and if he is misstated, I'm sure
21 the witness can correct him.
22 MR. MUNDIS:
23 Q. Let me just ask a couple of other questions just so that we're
24 all clear we're talking about the same thing.
25 Can you tell us, Mr. Dedovic, in the period from June through
1 August 1995 what was happening with respect to operations concerning
3 A. The period between June and end of August; is that the one you're
4 referring to?
5 Q. Yes, sir. And in 1995.
6 A. In the month of June, the Sarajevo operation commenced. The
7 commander was engaged throughout the time on the Sarajevo theatre of war.
8 In the month of July, to be precise on the 11th of July, Srebrenica fell
9 or rather the Srebrenica enclave did. As far as his engagement went, of
10 course he was busy on that score.
11 Next -- or, rather, we were in the area of Tuzla and Kladanj
12 until the 19th when we went to Split where a conference was held known as
13 the Split declaration. At the end of August, we went on the trip to
14 Iran -- or, rather, at the end of July we made that trip.
15 Q. And, sir, when you say, We were in the area of Tuzla and Kladanj
16 until the 19th; do you recall which month and year you were talking about
17 when you made the reference to Tuzla and Kladanj and the 19th?
18 A. The month of July. From the 17th to the 19th of July, 1995,
19 that's what I was referring to.
20 Q. And during this period, again from June through August 1995,
21 based on what you've told us, would it be fair to say General Delic had a
22 rather extensive travel schedule?
23 A. Yes. He was rather busy.
24 Q. And, again, sir, because of the nature of General Delic's
25 position, I take it that his travel during that time-period would have
1 been something that you would have wanted to keep secret?
2 A. Well, it wasn't just me who wanted to keep it secret. It was
3 probably also the Presidency deciding about the travel and the trips.
4 Q. Well, regardless, sir, of who -- upon whose initiative it was, it
5 was certainly the case that General Delic's travel schedule and travel
6 plans was not something that you would want to be revealed to the public
7 for fear that the enemy would know where he was and when. Would you
8 agree with that, sir?
9 A. Yes. His personal security and safety would be threatened in
10 that case.
11 Q. Now, yesterday, Mr. Dedovic, you told us about the telephone
12 systems and how those were unreliable as a form of communication during
13 the war. Is that right?
14 A. Yes. The communication system was very poor and highly
16 Q. Can you tell us then, sir, how it is that you coordinated or made
17 the announcements necessary for General Delic's travel schedule in the
18 period from June through August 1995?
19 A. Since in that time-period we were out in the field, there was no
20 need for me to make any announcements. It was on the commander's
21 discretion that we went to the various areas where combat activities were
22 taking place.
23 Q. So, sir, during this time-period what you're telling us then is
24 that General Delic would just decide tomorrow we go to Tuzla or Kladanj
25 and you just go there, without any of these announcements being made in
2 A. The General did not make such decisions in advance. If we
3 happened to at Proskok he and -- he would say, Let's go into the
4 direction of the AOR of the 2nd Corps. We didn't have reliable
5 communication system that would allow us to make such announcements at
6 that point in time.
7 Q. And just so we're clear then, sir, is it your testimony that in
8 the period from June through August 1995, during this period of extensive
9 travel by General Delic, that none of those plans were announced by you?
10 You simply went from one place to another during that time-period,
11 wherever General Delic decided to go?
12 A. Yes. I would be travelling with the General wherever he wanted
13 to go without making any announcements.
14 Q. I take it though that the trip to Split during this time-period
15 would have been something that wasn't just decided at the last minute by
16 General Delic. There would have been some kind of planning and
17 announcements and communications concerning that trip, would there not?
18 A. No, I don't know about the plans for that trip. I know that we
19 had five minutes to get ready for that trip, and we were -- we had a
20 change of clothes in the vehicle as we were travelling.
21 Q. Can you tell us, sir, whether there were any plans in place or
22 security teams, additional security teams that would be present at these
23 locations where General Delic visited to protect him and to supplement
24 the protection that you and Admir Delic could give the General?
25 A. At the forward command posts, there was security in place that
1 secured the said locations.
2 Q. But you weren't able to communicate with those forward command
3 posts and tell them that you and General Delic were coming. Is that your
5 A. Yes. Because I did not have the authority to issue orders to
6 these members of the army.
7 Q. Can you tell us, sir -- well, let me ask you a different
9 Yesterday, and this is reflected on page 8202 of the transcript
10 at lines 17 through 19, in reference to the operations again in the
11 summer of 1995 concerning Sarajevo, you said the commander was directly
12 involved in combat actions. The commander was directly involved in
13 combat actions.
14 Do you remember saying that, sir?
15 A. The commander was present in some of -- in some parts of the
16 battlefield while combat activities were ongoing.
17 Q. Well, that's my next question. What do you mean when you say he
18 was directly involved in combat actions? What do you mean by that,
19 "directly involved"?
20 A. The commander directly commanded and controlled the Sarajevo
22 Q. Were there any other operations that the commander directly
23 commanded and controlled during the war; or was there the only operation,
24 to your knowledge?
25 A. To my knowledge, that was the only operation that the commander
1 commanded and controlled personally.
2 Q. Well, sir, if during this period when this operation was going on
3 General Delic was travelling in Tuzla and Kladanj and Split and Iran, how
4 is it possible that he directly commanded and controlled the Sarajevo
6 A. In his absence, within the control and command system, he had his
7 deputies, Chiefs of Staff, who assumed that responsibility.
8 Q. But you're telling us, sir, in that time-period there was not an
9 ability or not a means by which General Delic could communicate with
10 these deputies and Chiefs of Staff?
11 A. They were able to meet up directly out in the field.
12 Q. Can you give us an example, sir, of one of these meetings out in
13 the field? A time and a place perhaps?
14 A. I don't know. I don't remember these meetings out in the field,
15 because the commander was constantly touring the field.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please repeat the last
18 MR. MUNDIS:
19 Q. Sir, have you been asked by the interpreter to repeat the last
20 sentence of your answer, if you could, please. They didn't hear you.
21 A. The commander was not holding meetings because he was busy
22 touring the territory where combat activities were taking place.
23 Q. I'm a bit confused because a moment ago, as reflected on lines 8
24 through 11 of this page, you told us in response to my question they were
25 able to meet up directly out in the field. And now you've just told us
1 the commander was not holding meetings because he was busy touring the
2 territory where combat activities were taking place.
3 And so my question to you, sir, is if General Delic was busy
4 travelling or touring the locations of the combat activities, how was he
5 able to have communication with the people who were commanding and
6 controlling the Sarajevo operation?
7 A. Directly in the field by touring all the sections where combat
8 actions were being carried out, he had to see for himself what the
9 situation was in the field.
10 Q. And, again, Mr. Dedovic, can you please give us some examples of
11 locations that you're referring to that were in the field. Again, during
12 the Sarajevo operation, during that period in the summer of 1995.
13 A. Yes, I can. Proskok, Visocica, Orahovo, Nisici plateau.
14 Q. Can you tell us, sir, if during the time period around the 19th
15 of July, 1995, when you have told us that the commander was in the areas
16 of Tuzla and Kladanj, was he still able to command and control the
17 Sarajevo operation during that time?
18 A. Because he was away from the Sarajevo front, somebody would take
19 over those duties. One of his subordinates.
20 Q. Well, was General Delic able to communicate with these
21 subordinates during this big operation while he was away from the
22 Sarajevo front?
23 A. I don't know, because he did not set up this communication
24 through me.
25 Q. Okay. I take it then from that answer it's possible he was in
1 communications with his subordinates at the Sarajevo front but simply you
2 weren't aware of that?
3 A. I don't know, because when we were out in the field, we didn't
4 have a reliable means of communication. We didn't have portable phones
5 for him to maintain the system of communications. As to if -- to whether
6 he did maintain communication with them or not, I don't know.
7 Q. Now, sir, during these times let's just go back to these
8 locations that you mentioned: Proskok, Visocica, Orahovo and the Nisici
9 plateau. At the time in the summer of 1995 that you and General Delic
10 were touring these locations were those places close to the front lines
11 and was there active fighting going on at the time you were in those
12 locations in the summer of 1995?
13 A. Yes. There was active fighting going on. These were active
14 sections of the front where combat actions were continuously going on.
15 Q. And when you visited these four locations in the summer of 1995
16 while this active fighting was going on, did you provide any advance
17 communication or advance notice to any of the ARBiH units at these
18 locations that you and General Delic would be coming?
19 A. No, I never informed any members of the armija that the General
20 would be coming to any of those locations.
21 Q. So if I understand you correctly then, Mr. Dedovic, you and
22 General Delic drove into an area where there was active fighting going on
23 without any advance notice to your own forces that you would be coming.
24 Is that right?
25 A. Yes, that is correct.
1 Q. I'm not a security professional, sir, but it would seem to me
2 that you would be putting your life and General Delic's life in danger by
3 simply driving into an area where there were active combat actions going
4 on, if only out of concern for being attacked by your own forces. Wasn't
5 that a concern of yours?
6 A. We were not worried, because we were coming from our territory.
7 As for that security aspect, we could have been killed in front of the
8 Presidency building too, as far as that security aspect is.
9 Q. But you didn't have any special concerns about being accidently
10 targeted as friendly fire by ARBiH forces during this time-period in the
11 summer of 1995?
12 A. No, we could not have become a target at all.
13 Q. Okay. Let me turn to a different subject.
14 Yesterday, sir, you told us that General Delic was only rarely, I
15 believe was the word used, rarely in Kakanj during the war. Is that
17 A. Yes, that is correct.
18 Q. During the war General Delic maintained a home or a residence in
19 Visoko, did he not?
20 A. He did, but he was rarely there, because most of the time we
21 spent actually touring the territory. We were not in one place for long.
22 Q. And Visoko is approximately how far from Kakanj?
23 A. About 20 to 25 kilometres, I think. Taking the motor way.
24 Q. And at any point during the war was the motor way between Visoko
25 and Kakanj in enemy hands.
1 A. It was possible that it could be hit by artillery fire from the
2 Kiseljak direction.
3 Q. True. But that wasn't the question. My question, sir, was
4 whether at any point during the war that motorway was actually in enemy
6 A. I know that as of 1993 it was not in the hands until the end of
7 the war, but before 1992, I am not familiar with the situation in that
8 section of the territory.
9 Q. Okay. But certainly during the time-period in the war when
10 General Delic was the Main Staff commander the road linking the forward
11 command post or the command post in Kakanj and General Delic's residence
12 in Visoko, that road was held by BH army forces?
13 A. That is correct, yes.
14 Q. Now, Mr. Dedovic, during these time-periods when you and
15 General Delic were travelling abroad -- I'm going to ask you some
16 questions about these places that you went to when you were travelling
17 outside of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
18 Let's start with the times you were in Croatia whether it was
19 Split or Zagreb or anywhere else. During those periods when you were in
20 Zagreb or in Split or in Croatia where did you stay? Did you stay in
21 hotels or private residences or where did you stay?
22 A. At hotels. In Split, we were at the Villa Dalmatija. That is
23 where we were staying. It's a hotel compound.
24 Q. And do you recall where we were staying in Zagreb when you
25 travelled to Zagreb?
1 A. It was a hotel. I don't know exactly which hotel it was. I
2 don't know the name, but it was a hotel.
3 Q. And when you and General Delic were staying at these hotels in
4 Split or Zagreb, did you stay in the same room or did you have separate
5 hotel rooms?
6 A. Separate hotel rooms, but my room was always in the immediate
7 vicinity of the General's room.
8 Q. What about the trip that you made to the Islamic Republic of Iran
9 in the summer of 1995. Where did you stay when you were in Iran?
10 A. In hotels also.
11 Q. And during that stay, sir, did you also say in separate hotel
12 rooms that were in the close proximity to each other?
13 A. Yes. Very close, yes.
14 Q. Let me ask you a couple of questions about this trip to Iran.
15 Do you recall, sir, or did you have any discussions with
16 General Delic about why you were going to Iran?
17 A. No. I didn't talk to General Delic about why we were going to
19 Q. And coming -- I assume you flew to Iran. Is that right?
20 A. Yes, we took the plane.
21 Q. And do you remember, sir, on that trip to Iran where you flew
22 from, where you departed from, going to Iran?
23 A. From the Pula airport.
24 Q. And you flew back to Pula as well?
25 A. Yes. I think that we also landed at Pula airport.
1 Q. And on the aeroplane, I'm just curious, did you sit next to the
2 General during those flights to and from Iran?
3 A. In the immediate vicinity of the General. In front of him or
4 behind him, but in the immediate vicinity, yes.
5 Q. And coming back from Iran, did you have any discussions or did he
6 say anything to you about what was discussed during his meetings in Iran?
7 A. No. The General did not comment with me about what was going on
8 in or what -- what had been going on in or what happened in Iran.
9 Q. Okay. And so just we're clear then during the time you were
10 going to Iran and on the way coming back from Iran you didn't have any
11 discussions with General Delic as to why you were going or what had
12 happened or whether it had been successful or what was discussed in any
13 of the meetings?
14 A. No. I never had such conversation with the General, me asking
15 what had happened at a meeting or anything like that.
16 Q. Okay. Well, I wasn't just referring to you asking. I was also
17 referring to perhaps General Delic perhaps would have made a comment to
18 you. The meetings were successful, or we talked about this. Or anything
19 along those lines. Without you asking, I'm just wondering if he
20 volunteered any information, any small talk or any conversation about
21 what was discussed or why you were going.
22 A. No, I found out what it was all about only when this was
23 published by the newspapers when it was broadcast on television about
24 what happened during General Delic's trip.
25 Q. What did you hear, sir, about this trip from the media, the
1 newspapers or the television?
2 A. That it was a visit that had to do with aid to Bosnia and
4 Q. Do you remember what kind of aid?
5 A. I don't know exactly, but some kind of assistance was planned. I
6 don't know what kind of assistance though.
7 Q. Let me just ask you then, sir, a few questions about the trip to
8 Malaysia that you made with General Delic in the late summer/early autumn
9 of 1995.
10 When you flew to Kuala Lumpur, where did you fly from? What
11 airport did you fly from?
12 A. I think that we left from Zagreb.
13 Q. And you returned also to Zagreb, to the Zagreb airport, from
14 Kuala Lumpur?
15 A. Yes, we landed at Zagreb airport.
16 Q. And during the time-period, sir, that you were in Kuala Lumpur, I
17 think yesterday us you were staying at a hotel. And my question to is
18 the same as earlier. Were you and General Delic in the same hotel room
19 or were you in separate hotel rooms that were in the close or immediate
20 vicinity to one another?
21 A. We were in separate rooms.
22 Q. And, sir, either on the way to Kuala Lumpur or on the way back
23 did you have any, again, discussions or conversations with General Delic
24 about the purpose of that trip or the results of any meetings that he
25 attended while he was in Kuala Lumpur?
1 A. No, I didn't speak to him about that.
2 Q. During the time that you were in Kuala Lumpur, I know you -- you
3 spoke yesterday about telephone conversations. Do you know if
4 General Delic had any telephone conversations in his hotel room while you
5 were in Kuala Lumpur?
6 A. From what I know, he did not have any telephone conversations.
7 Q. So you don't know if he called his wife or his family or anyone
8 like that, any of his personal acquaintances while he was in Kuala
10 A. No, because those contacts would have been made through me.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we just hold it.
12 [Technical difficulty]
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, Mr. Mundis.
14 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you.
15 Q. Sir, you know you have already answered but we had some problems
16 with the transcript so I'm going to ask the question again and ask you to
17 answer it again, so it is on the record.
18 My question was while you were in Kuala Lumpur were you aware of
19 any phone conversations General Delic may have had with his wife or his
20 family or any of his personal acquaintances?
21 A. From what I know, General Delic did not conduct that kind of
22 conversation, no.
23 Q. I'd now like to turn to a different topic, sir. I'm going to be
24 discussing with you different dates and places where General Delic was
25 during the period from roughly the end of July until the end of
1 September 1995.
2 Sir, do you recall being in Kakanj with General Delic on the 29th
3 of July, 1995?
4 A. No, I don't remember that date.
5 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the witness be shown PT2352. And
6 if we could start actually by going to page 12 in the Bosnian. We can
7 stay on the first page in English. We can go to page 12, the last page
8 in the Bosnian. Sorry, it should be page 14. I think there's a
9 pagination error in the original. The last page of the document.
10 Q. Sir, do you see the signature at the bottom of this document?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. That's General Delic's signature, is it not?
13 A. I don't know. Would you need to consult an expert, handwriting
14 expert. I'm not really qualified to say if that is General Delic's
15 signature or not.
16 Q. Sir, did you ever see General Delic's signature during the course
17 of the war?
18 A. Again, I am saying this signature doesn't mean anything to me.
19 I'm not qualified to decide whether this is General Delic's signature or
20 not. I cannot assert that.
21 Q. I understand that. That wasn't my question --
22 A. I'm not familiar with it.
23 Q. Your testimony, sir -- you were the body-guard or an escort for
24 General Delic for, I believe, you said seven years, from June of 1993
25 until he retired from the army in 2000. So for seven years you were this
1 man's escort and body-guard and you never once saw his signature, you're
2 not familiar with his signature?
3 A. No, I don't know this signature.
4 Q. Okay. Did you ever get performance evaluations or anything like
5 that from General Delic during the time that you were in the army?
6 A. No, I didn't get any assessments relating to my work performance.
7 Q. Let's go back then to the first page of this document in the
9 Sir, do you see on the upper left part of this document where it
10 describes what this document is about? Do you see that on the document?
11 A. I don't know. Possibly this is some kind of a consultation. I
12 don't know.
13 Q. Well, the subject line of this document says: "Conclusions and
14 tasks stemming from the meeting held between the core members of the
15 General Staff of the RBiH army and the corps commanders in Kakanj on 29
16 July 1995."
17 Do you see that, sir?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. And I put to you, Mr. Dedovic, that this document is signed by
20 General Delic and refers to a meeting, it is a lengthy document; it is
21 more than ten pages long. It refers to a meeting that General Delic held
22 in Kakanj on the 29th of July 1995.
23 A. That is your assertion. You can assert whatever you like. I'm
24 not going to go into your assertions.
25 Q. In late July 1995 and specifically on the 29th of July, 1995,
1 sir, were you with General Delic?
2 A. Yes, probably. It is probably some kind of consultative meeting
3 or something and that it lasted for a couple of hours. I was probably
4 there. Definitely I was there.
5 Q. And during such a consultative meeting that lasted for, as you
6 put it a couple of hours, it very well may have lasted long than that,
7 because it is a very lengthy document what would you have been doing?
8 Would you have been in the room or outside the room?
9 A. As I have been saying so far, I never attended any meetings,
10 consultations or anything, any kind of meetings. I would always be in
11 front of the room.
12 Q. And is it your testimony, sir, that you were in Kakanj with
13 General Delic on the 29th of July, 1995 or not, or do you simply not
15 A. I cannot recall it by that date, but I must have been there. I
16 mean, if it was held, then we must have been there.
17 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, we ask that this document be marked for
18 identification and I will move on.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Document PT2325 is marked for identification. May
20 it please be given an exhibit number.
21 THE REGISTRAR: The document will become Exhibit number 1365,
22 marked for identification.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
24 THE REGISTRAR: 1365, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
1 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise. Perhaps
3 we can check this. I am almost sure that this document has already been
4 admitted. Maybe it was tendered through the -- from the bar table, but
5 this is maybe something we should check.
6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Registrar assures us that it has not been
8 admitted, and we will take her word for it.
9 MR. MUNDIS:
10 Q. Now, Mr. Dedovic, on either the 1st or 2nd of August, 1995, were
11 you with General Delic in Zavidovici?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. How long were you in Zavidovici on that day, sir?
14 A. I don't know exactly how long, but we were there for a couple of
16 Q. Where did you go in Zavidovici on that day, sir?
17 A. I don't know specifically what you mean, where did we go in
18 Zavidovici. The question is not clear to me.
19 Q. Okay. Well, let me put it a different way.
20 Sir, did you visit the headquarters or the command of the 35th
21 Division of the 3rd Corps in Zavidovici on the 1st or 2nd of August,
23 A. I don't know exactly which unit it was, but we were visiting one
24 unit. I don't know exactly which unit it was though.
25 Q. Do you know, were there -- other than General Delic, were there
1 any other senior officials who were present in Zavidovici on that day at
2 this unit that you visited?
3 A. Yes. President Izetbegovic.
4 MR. MUNDIS: I ask the witness be shown P02358. And if we could
5 please go to page 2 in the Bosnian and page 4 in the English.
6 Q. Sir, in the middle of page do you see paragraph number 3. It
7 talks about combat morale?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Section 3. The second paragraph under section 3 refers to
10 President Izetbegovic, General Delic, 3rd Corps Commander Mahmuljin,
11 visiting the command of the 35th army division.
12 Do you see that, sir?
13 A. 35th Division ...
14 MR. MUNDIS: Can we please go back to the first page of this
15 document in both the Bosnian and English languages, please.
16 Q. Do you see the date of this document, sir?
17 A. The 2nd of August, 1995.
18 Q. And, sir, does this document seem to refer to the meeting that I
19 just asked you about, in Zavidovici on or about 1 or 2 August 1995?
20 A. Yes. The General's visit to the 35th Division with
21 President Izetbegovic and General Mahmuljin.
22 MR. MUNDIS: We would ask that P02538 be admitted into evidence.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
24 please be given an exhibit number.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the document will become Exhibit
1 number 1366.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
3 MR. MUNDIS:
4 Q. Mr. Dedovic, to the best of your recollection, sir, when you and
5 General Delic returned from Kuala Lumpur and flew into the international
6 airport in Zagreb, what was the date of that return to Zagreb? When did
7 you arrive in Zagreb?
8 A. I think it was on the 17th of September. Yes, 17 September.
9 Q. Are you certain of that date, sir, that it was the 17th or is it
10 possible that it was on the 16th?
11 A. No, it could not have been on the 16th, because the conference in
12 Kuala Lumpur finished on the 16th. And even if we had departed
13 immediately after the close of the conference, still, it would have taken
14 13 hours and we would have arrived on the 17th.
15 MR. MUNDIS: I'd ask that the witness be shown PT 6288?
16 Q. Now, Mr. Dedovic, this is a BBC, British Broadcasting
17 Corporation, news article and if you see, sir, in approximately the
18 middle of the page in Bosnian, this news report indicates that the BBC's
19 Zagreb correspondent Nada al Isa asked General Delic for his assessment
20 of the situation and that that correspondent asked that question on the
21 16th of September?
22 A. I'm not aware of any meeting involving Nada al Isa. I'm not
23 familiar with that individual or with that conversation taking place on
24 -- that's the 16th, the date.
25 Q. That's what the report seems to indicate, sir, that on the 16th
1 of September, 1995 the BBC's Zagreb correspondent asked General Delic for
2 his assessment of the situation, and it makes reference to General Delic
3 having attended the OIC ministerial meeting in Kuala Lumpur and goes on
4 to say: "But the interview given to our correspondent was conducted in
6 And I repeat my question whether it is not possible that you were
7 mistaken and that you were already in Zagreb on the 16th of September,
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
10 Sorry, sir. Just hold on.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. The
12 Prosecutor interpreted or, rather, misinterpreted the document. The
13 document does not state anywhere. It is stated that the correspondent
14 from Zagreb spoke to him, but it does not state that the interview was
15 made in Zagreb. Quite the contrary, if you look at the source it's radio
16 Bosnia and Herzegovina. That's quite a different matter. And you will
17 recall the witness's evidence yesterday that a radio correspondent was
18 with them down there, so I don't want the witness to be referred to a
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.
21 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, the English document is very clear it
22 is the second paragraph, I'm happy to read it, it indicates the interview
23 given to our correspondent was conducted in Zagreb. That's what the
24 document says.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I can see that, and do you have anything to say
1 about what Madam Vidovic is saying regarding that headline F source radio
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Sarajevo, in Serbo-Croat, 1.00 GMT, 16 September,
4 MR. MUNDIS: The only comment I could make is obviously the BBC
5 monitors a number of foreign broadcast services, and it seems from the
6 face of the document that the BBC is reporting from the information that
7 it got there radio Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time and date indicated on
8 the BBC report.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, can I just understand it is what
10 you're objecting to. This paragraph that Mr. Mundis is referring the
11 witness to starts off by saying:
12 "Our Zagreb correspondent, Nada al Isa today, (16 September)
13 asked army General Rasim Delic, commander of the Bosnian army, for his
14 assessment of the success of Bosnian army and Croat Defence council units
15 over the past few days. General Delic attended the OIC, organisation of
16 the Islamic conference ministerial meeting in Kuala Lumpur, but the
17 interview given to our correspondent was conducted in Zagreb."
18 Is there no such thing in the Bosnian version, because we can't
19 read the Bosnian. We can only go with what we see in the English.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, I didn't
21 notice that part of the text, and I apologise.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I didn't observe that bit.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic. Okay.
25 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, would it be possible
1 that you may have left on the 16th and you would arrived on the 16th
2 also, since there was a difference in time, you said seven hours.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We definitely were not in Zagreb on
4 the 16th.
5 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Do you remember at what time you
6 left from Kuala Lumpur? On the 16th, you said, on the 16th. At what
7 time did you leave? Was in the afternoon, was it the evening, was it the
8 end of the morning; do you remember?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was late in the evening that we
10 left, and we could not have arrived in Zagreb on the 16th.
11 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me just ask you one little thing.
13 Are you aware that when you travel from the east to the west
14 there is this thing that they call -- you gain time? You may be in the
15 air for 13 hours, but when you get to your destination, depending on how
16 far it is from where you moved from, it may not be -- it may still be the
17 day before the day you left. The concept of gaining time?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That is what the phenomenon
19 is, in fact, but we were not in Zagreb on the 16th.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
21 Mr. Mundis.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders this is
24 document as it goes to the credibility of the witness.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
1 please be given an exhibit number.
2 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become Exhibit
4 number 1367.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
6 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the document is
9 already been assigned a number, and I did not have the opportunity to
10 react. Therefore, I want to state the following: I oppose the admission
11 of this document along the same principle whereby a document which the
12 Defence used to challenge the credibility of Witness Zilkic and there
13 were definitely many more elements in favour of admitting that document,
14 the document had not been admitted. I don't see that we are now in the
15 same situation when it comes to the documents proposed by either the
16 Defence or the Prosecution, the purpose of which is to challenge the
17 credibility of witnesses.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, Madam Vidovic, I am speaking for myself in
19 the unfortunate position of just having no recollection of the documents
20 submitted through Zilkic. I would prefer you, rather than refer me to
21 another document to put the basis of your objection for admission of this
22 document, just put your arguments and if -- if they are the same as the
23 Zilkic arguments, just repeat those arguments.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness stated
25 that the document was not accurate. But he is not familiar with the
1 journalist, al Isa. He stated that he didn't know whether General Delic
2 in fact had this interview, and the witness in fact did not either
3 identify the document or confirm it. Likewise, I don't see how the
4 witness's credibility can be challenged on the basis of such a document.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.
6 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, my recollection is that the document
7 that my learned colleague tried to show to and have admitted through the
8 Witness Zilkic was being tendered both for purposes of impeaching the
9 witness but also for the truth of the matter contained in the document.
10 All I can indicate at this point in time is clearly we have one document
11 that purports to be reflecting an interview that was given certainly on
12 the face of the document on the 16th of September, 1995 at some point
13 prior to 1300 GMT. The witness had said they were not present at that
14 point in time. We simply indicate that this is something that goes to
15 the credibility of the witness on that limited point.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Once again, Mr. Mundis, you're going back to the
17 Zilkic. Anyway, you told us what was said in the Zilkic matter.
18 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, let me state for the
20 record, that when it came to witness Zilkic I was referring to MFI 814.
21 But let me respond to my colleague Mr. Mundis when it comes to
22 his arguments in relation to this document.
23 First of all, this text is unsigned, unauthorised, and was
24 carried --or by a news agency. First we have the radio
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina mentioned and then this correspondent al Isa from
1 Zagreb. The text was not authorised and its contents were fully refuted
2 by the witness, which I believe are reasons enough for never allowing
3 this document to be admitted into evidence.
4 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, these matters all go to weight and not
5 admissibility in our respectful submission.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: In my respectful submission, this is way beyond
7 the time for taking the break. We'll come back and deal with this matter
8 when we come back at 4.00.
9 Court adjourned.
10 --- Recess taken at 3.34 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 4.05 p.m.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Chamber apologises for coming in late. We had
13 to be considering the issue at hand just before we left.
14 We've sort of looked at the transcript relating to the Zilkic
15 document, and on a cursory reading of the two points it doesn't look
16 like -- it is not apparent to the Chamber what the difference is. For
17 that reason, this document will only be marked for identification.
18 May it please be given an exhibit number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, Exhibit 1367 will be exhibit marked
20 for identification.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
22 Yes, Mr. Mundis.
23 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. I'd ask the witness be
24 shown P06287, P06287.
25 Q. Again, Mr. Dedovic, this document is from the French news agency
1 AFP dated 16 September 1995, and I draw your attention to the third
2 paragraph where again there is reference to General Delic going on
3 national radio. And I'm wondering, sir, if you're in a position to
4 comment as to this news article concerning a national radio broadcast on
5 the 16th of September, 1995?
6 A. I cannot comment on this because I never heard this statement by
7 General Delic.
8 Q. And would General Delic have been in a position to make a
9 national radio broadcast on the 16th of September, 1995?
10 A. No. He could not have appeared on national radio on the 16th of
12 Q. And, again, I take it, sir, that that's because it's your
13 testimony that he was still in Kuala Lumpur on the 16th of September.
14 A. Yes, precisely.
15 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, I'd ask this document also be marked
16 for identification, please.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is marked for identification, may it
18 please be given an exhibit number.
19 Exhibit -- the document will become Exhibit 1368, marked for
21 MR. MUNDIS:
22 Q. Mr. Dedovic, turning to the period after you and General Delic
23 returned from Malaysia, can you tell us, please, whether during the month
24 of September 1995, after the trip from Malaysia, you and General Delic
25 were in the area around Vozuca?
1 A. In late September, we were in the broader Vozuca area in the area
2 of responsibility of the 2nd Corps, but not in Vozuca itself.
3 Q. That's why I ask, sir, in the area around Vozuca. Do you recall
4 the date that you were in Vozuca, in the area around Vozuca or greater
5 Vozuca in September 1995?
6 A. I think in late September 1995.
7 MR. MUNDIS: I'd ask that the witness now be shown P06286,
9 Q. Mr. Dedovic, this document, if you can look at the very bottom of
10 the document in Bosnian, seems to be a publication of the 35th Division
11 of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Do you see that, sir, at the very
12 bottom of this article?
13 A. Yes, it does say the 35th Division of the land forces.
14 Q. I would draw your attention if we could please go in the Bosnian
15 to the bottom right-hand corner where it says: "Epilogue," and that
16 would be perfect.
17 And now if we could go to bottom of page 3 in the English version
18 and continuing to the top of page 4 in the English version, so if can he
19 can start with the top.
20 Sir, I'd ask you to take a look at the part of the article, this
21 paragraph entitled epilogue. I'd ask you to read that to yourself,
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we turn the page in the English, please.
24 MR. MUNDIS:
25 Q. Do you see, sir, reference to the visit of
1 President Alija Izetbegovic to Vozuca in September 1995, in this article?
2 A. In the article it says that two days later the President of the
3 Presidency, Alija Izetbegovic would also arrive in Vozuca.
4 Q. And, sir, were you aware of the fact that President Izetbegovic
5 had gone to Vozuca in September 1995? Did you personally know that?
6 A. No, I personally didn't know that.
7 Q. But towards the end of this article it indicate ago few days
8 later the commander of the glorious army would come as well. Do you see
9 that, sir?
10 A. Yes, I see that part of the text.
11 Q. The reference to the commander of the glorious army, does that
12 refer to General Delic?
13 A. I see here that this is an assumption that the commander of the
14 glorious army would come.
15 Q. You told us, sir, that you recall going to September -- going to
16 Vozuca with General Delic or the greater Vozuca area at the end of
17 September. Is that correct?
18 A. Vozuca is a very large sector. We were never in Vozuca itself.
19 Q. Do you recall, sir, what specific area or areas within this
20 Vozuca sector you and General Delic visited?
21 A. We were in the area of responsibility of the 2nd Corps. These
22 are parts of Ozren towards Petrovo Selo.
23 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, we'd ask that this document be
24 admitted into evidence.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I object to the
2 admission of this document. I believe that the Prosecutor has not
3 established a sufficient basis for the admission of this document. The
4 witness did not identify the document in any other way -- in any way. He
5 said that he doesn't know that President Izetbegovic was there. He said
6 that it was an assumption that the commander of the army would arrive,
7 and he did not confirm anything from the document, and there is no link
8 between the witness and the document.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.
10 MR. MUNDIS: I believe the witness testified that he and
11 General Delic went to the greater Vozuca area in September 1995 and
12 certainly a number of the issues raised by my learned colleague from the
13 Defence would go to the issue of any weight that the Trial Chamber may
14 decide to give to this document and not necessarily go to the issue of
15 admissibility of the document.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document will be marked for identification.
18 May it please be given an exhibit number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will be become Exhibit
20 number 1369, marked for identification.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
22 MR. MUNDIS:
23 Q. Now, Mr. Dedovic, this visit to the greater Vozuca area in
24 September 1995 that you made, do you know if that was in the area around
1 A. These are parts of the Ozren mountain. These are actually on the
2 other side completely.
3 Q. When you say these are parts of the Ozren mountain. What do you
4 mean by "these are parts of the Ozren mountain"?
5 A. The area where we were staying, that region of Petrovo Selo
6 belongs to the area of responsibility of the 2nd Corps. The Maglaj
7 theatre of war belongs to the 3rd Corps area of responsibility. We did
8 not spend time there.
9 Q. Okay. Now, let me turn to a different subject with you,
10 Mr. Dedovic.
11 Are you familiar with or have you ever heard of a publication
12 called Prva Linija?
13 A. Prva Linija are you thinking of the weekly or the daily paper?
14 Q. Exactly. That's exactly what I'm thinking of, sir. Are you
15 familiar with that publication?
16 A. It's an army newspaper Prva Linija, yes.
17 Q. And what do you mean, sir, by an army newspaper? Can you tell us
18 what you mean by an army newspaper?
19 A. It's a newspaper that mostly covered the events in the army.
20 Q. Okay. And who -- do you know who was the publisher or who was
21 responsible for the publication of this journal?
22 A. I don't know, really. I don't know who the publisher was and who
23 was responsible.
24 Q. Okay. Sir, at any point in time when you --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. I just want to get clarity.
1 Sir, when you say that it's a newspaper that mostly covered the
2 events in the army, which army do you refer to?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From what I can recall, actually,
4 my best recollection comes in the post-war period. It's a paper of or
5 was a paper of the army of the Federation.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which Federation, sir?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Federation of Bosnia and
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. And the army of the Federation, is it
10 something distinct from the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I emphasised that my
12 recollection of that newspaper is from the post-war period. During the
13 war, I didn't have the opportunity to read the paper. I wasn't receiving
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand that, sir, but would you please
16 answer my question. My question is, is the army of the Federation of
17 Bosnia a distinct institution from the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your question is not clear to me.
19 Please, could you explain it a little more.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You said this document from your recollection is a
21 document of the army of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the
22 Federation. I'm asking you: Is the army of the Federation of Bosnia and
23 Herzegovina a different institution or is it the same institution as the
24 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina that was led by General Delic.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The army of Bosnia-Herzegovina is
1 separate. After the peace agreement, a Joint Command was established and
2 that was the joint army of the Bosnia and Herzegovina, so it would be
3 the -- the joint army of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the
4 army of Republika Srpska.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
6 Yes, Mr. Mundis.
7 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you.
8 Q. Mr. Dedovic, let me just turn to the final one or two subjects
9 that I'd like to discuss with you today.
10 During the course of the war --
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise to my colleague
13 Mr. Mundis. I just want to see that it is in the transcript here the
14 Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina and then we also have suddenly the
15 army of the Republika Srpska which actually the witness did not mention.
16 So perhaps my colleague can clarify that the witness did not mention the
17 army of Republika Srpska.
18 I'm talking about page 37, lines -- lines 17 and 18. We have the
19 words the army of Republika Srpska. Actually this is creating some
20 confusion. The witness did not mention that, in fact.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir, can you please try an answer my question once
23 My question had been, is the army of the Federation of Bosnia the
24 same entity or institution as the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina that was
25 led by the accused?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it is not the same entity. It
2 is not the same institution. These are two different institutions.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
4 Does that clear it, Madam Vidovic?
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
7 Mr. Mundis.
8 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Q. Let me just ask a couple of follow on questions on this topic.
10 Sir, do you know when the army of the Federation of Bosnia and
11 Herzegovina was established?
12 A. First, in 1994 the Joint Command or the Joint Staff was created
13 of the HVO forces and the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. And then in
14 the subsequent period, this is the body from which the army of the
15 Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina evolved.
16 Q. And when did the army of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina
17 come into existence?
18 A. I don't know the exact date.
19 Q. Can you give us an approximate time-period. A year, for example?
20 A. I think that it was after the signing of the Dayton Accords.
21 Q. And what -- once the army of the Federation of Bosnia and
22 Herzegovina was established, did the ARBiH continue to exist, or did it
23 cease to exist?
24 A. It ceased to exist.
25 Q. And, sir, would it be fair then to say that in effect the army of
1 the Federation subsumed or took over what had been the ARBiH?
2 A. I don't know specifically what you mean, that it took over.
3 Could you please clarify your question. I'm not quite sure I understand
5 Q. At the time the ARBiH -- or at the time the Federation, the army
6 of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina was established, the ARBiH,
7 in effect, ceased to exist. Is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you, sir, at the time that happened, you were a member of the
10 ARBiH. Is that correct?
11 A. Automatically I was no longer a member of the army of Bosnia and
12 Herzegovina but a member of the army of the Federation of Bosnia and
14 Q. So, in effect, sir, you didn't have to take any steps personally
15 to go from being a member of the ARBiH to being a member of the army of
16 the Federation of BiH. It was automatic, as you said.
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. Let me now turn to the last one or two subjects that I would like
19 to talk to you or talk with you about this afternoon, Mr. Dedovic.
20 During the course of the war, 1993 through 1995, did you, sir,
21 ever hear of a unit known as the El Mujahedin Detachment?
22 A. No. No, I didn't. I haven't heard of the existence of that
24 Q. And are you saying then, sir, that even to this day you have
25 never heard of the El Mujahedin Detachment?
1 A. No. I heard mostly about the existence of the El Mujahed when
2 I -- following these trials. During the war, I never heard of that
3 detachment. The army number 25.000 men, 100 brigades, 500 battalions; so
4 I don't know, I mean, I didn't even know it existed.
5 Q. Okay. But certainly just so we're clear during the course of the
6 war you never heard of the El Mujahedin Detachment?
7 A. No. During the war, no.
8 Q. Sir, during the course of the war did you know or did you ever
9 observe any people who appeared to you to be foreigners serving in or
10 with the soldiers of the army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
11 A. I don't know on the basis of what I should have been able to
12 recognise them as foreigners, whether they would not be speaking our
13 language or what. I don't understand the question.
14 Q. Fair enough. Let me ask you it a slightly different way.
15 Do you know or did you ever observe or were you aware of the fact
16 that persons coming from African or Arabic countries were serving in or
17 with units of the ARBiH?
18 A. I did not see afro-asian members of the BiH army. Myself being a
19 member of the BiH army did not have occasion to see any such members.
20 Q. And I wanted to be sure, sir, so that we're on the same page, if
21 you will. I'm talking about the period during the war, 1993 to 1995. Is
22 it your testimony that you never on any occasion saw any persons from
23 African or Arabic countries serving in or with units of the ARBiH?
24 A. No, I did not have the opportunity to see these men.
25 Q. Can you tell us, sir, in December 1995 or into the first few days
1 of January 1996, did you accompany General Delic to any trips to Zenica?
2 A. End of 1995, early January 1996? It is possible that we went
3 there. That was already after the signing of the Dayton Peace Accords.
4 The war had ended. It is quite possible that we went there.
5 Q. In that time-period, again December 1995 first few days of
6 January 1996, were you personally present at any point in time when
7 General Delic met with or spoke to persons from African and Arabic
9 A. To my knowledge, General Delic never met with them in that
10 time-period. I'm not aware of that.
11 Q. Thank you very much Mr. Dedovic.
12 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Mundis.
14 Madam Vidovic, any re-examination?
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, very few brief
17 Re-examination by Ms. Vidovic:
18 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Dedovic, before I proceed.
19 I have only a few brief questions for you.
20 The Prosecutor asked you a series of questions which had to do
21 with the announcement of your visits to other army units in various war
22 zones. You also told us yesterday that you had radio sets of stations as
23 a means of communication. Can you describe for us the following: What
24 would have happened, if anything, had you announced such visits in the
25 war zones?
1 A. Since such stations constituted unreliable means of communication
2 I did not make contact over them with other units.
3 Q. My question had to do with something else. When you say
4 unreliable means of communication, what does that precisely mean?
5 A. That means that at any given point of time, members of the army
6 of Republika Srpska, being in possession of more sophisticated technology
7 were in a position to listen in to such communications. They had far
8 more powerful technology.
9 Q. And what bearing would that have, if any, on the security of
10 General Delic?
11 A. It would have been a threat to his security. That's why it was
12 not used in the first place.
13 Q. You say it would not be used. Why? Is that related to any
14 inherent dangers?
15 A. Yes, of course. It would have been a security threat.
16 Q. Today you were shown some articles and reports. Let me ask you
17 this: Unless I'm mistaken, yesterday, while indicating the members of
18 the delegation who accompanied you to Kuala Lumpur, you mentioned the
19 journalist Senad Kamenica. Do you recall that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you recall which media he worked for?
22 A. Radio and Television Bosnia-Herzegovina, the state television,
23 that is.
24 Q. Did that also subsume the radio?
25 A. I don't know. I know he was an employee of the
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina radio television, and I don't know what that implied.
2 Q. Do you recall any of his activities during the conference? Did
3 he make any contacts with anyone?
4 A. I really can't tell you that. I believe he is the person who is
5 best placed to tell you if and who he made contact with.
6 Q. Very well.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no further
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...
10 Madam Vidovic.
12 Questioned by the Court:
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Mr. Dedovic.
14 You told us during your testimony yesterday that when
15 General Delic was appointed to the post as Supreme Commander, he met
16 considerable resistance and outright disloyalty in the beginning, and he
17 had to suffer humiliation and a lot of difficulty in order to cope with
19 My question to you is: In your opinion, was the General able to
20 overcome that over time so that by the end of the war he had been able to
21 establish respect about himself, so that he enjoyed the support and
22 loyalty and respect of his subordinates in the army?
23 A. Yes. He was able to overcome that, but only with the support of
24 the Presidency and the president of the Republic.
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Tell us a bit about that. When and how did the
1 President of the Presidency intervene in support of General Delic?
2 A. With the very fact that he initiated actions against the disloyal
3 commanders of the 9th and 10th Mountain Brigades, since the commander was
4 unable to do that himself, of his own initiative.
5 JUDGE HARHOFF: So are you saying that after the Caco and Celo
6 incidents, General Delic was then generally enjoying support of all parts
7 of his army?
8 A. Yes. I believe that after these incidents, the commander's
9 enjoyed full support of all members of the army.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. I would have thought the same,
11 but ...
12 Another question relates to something that you mentioned to us in
13 your earlier testimony, and that was the meetings that General Delic had,
14 I think it was in Kuala Lumpur or it -- I could have been mistake it
15 could also have been in Iran, but you said something that struck my mind.
16 You said that a lot of people came to see the General because
17 they wanted to know how they could help, what kind of assistance they
18 could offer and so the General could tell them that we need this and we
19 need that.
20 Is that what -- is that a fair account of what you said?
21 A. This was at the Islamic conference in Kuala Lumpur. All the
22 participants in the conference wanted to have a word with Commander Delic
23 about the type of assistance needed. I don't know anything specific
24 about what assistance was offered, but I know that all the participants
25 in the conference wanted to have a word with General Delic.
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Are you able to ascertain whether any of that
2 help was ever materialised or was ever offered? Did we -- or did you -
3 sorry - did you eventually get assistance from some of the countries that
4 had offered their help?
5 A. Well, that was probably the case, through the implementation of
6 the Dayton Peace Accords. Some some assistance was received. Now I
7 can't tell you what kind of assistance there may have been.
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Hold on a minute, the participants at the IOC in
9 Kuala Lumpur, they were not participants in the Dayton Accord.
10 A. No, no they weren't.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Maybe I've not put my question correctly to you.
12 I'll try again.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, the transcript stopped.
14 MR. MUNDIS: The transcript stopped.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Mundis.
16 MR. MUNDIS: It stopped during the last answer, Your Honour, so
17 your question also wasn't recorded.
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thanks, I'll re-put it. But I'll wait until I
19 get the green light from the stenographer.
20 [Technical difficulty ]
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Are we back on track? Thank you very much.
22 Mr. Dedovic, my question to you is, if you are aware of whether
23 any of the assistance that was offered by the participants at the Islamic
24 conference in Kuala Lumpur ever materialised in your country.
25 A. I don't know that. The ministry of foreign affairs would
1 probably better placed to give you an answer. I don't know.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Well, since you were also in the army, you might
3 have seen or heard whether any assistance was ever received from abroad.
4 I don't know what it could have been, but there a number of options. But
5 in any case, I assume that receiving assistance in whatever form from
6 abroad might be something that was, you know, publicly known and spoken
8 A. Yes. I can tell you about that. The assistance provided by the
9 American company MP Reye [phoen] for instance in training the troops of
10 the army of the Federation. That's the bit I'm aware of.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: But you were not aware of any similar kind of
12 assistance or other form of assistance that was offered by any member of
13 the OIC or the Islamic organisation.
14 A. No. I don't have any knowledge about that type of assistance.
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: My last question also relates to the trip to
16 Kuala Lumpur, because you said yesterday that it was quite a big
17 delegation that went to that conference from -- from Bosnia and
18 Herzegovina. There was a doctor, there was a journalist, there was
19 General Delic, and there was yourself. And I wonder if there were any
20 members representing the political institutions in Bosnia-Herzegovina,
21 was there any members of the ministries or any member of the
22 War Presidency or ...
23 A. I think that the Ministry of Defence was present as well. Now, I
24 don't know these individuals by their name, but I know there were also
25 members of the ministry of foreign affairs. I don't know what duties
1 they discharged therein.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Judge.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Dedovic --
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise. I should
7 like the transcript to reflect a part of my re-examination, since it
8 was -- it disappeared from the transcript as it is now. I guess this can
9 be done at the end of today's hearing, but I merely wish to draw your
10 attention to the fact that almost of it was left out of the transcript
11 unless its with put back in, in the meantime.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, are you able to refer us to the
13 area where it is suppose to appear, what page.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that should be page 2
15 shortly before the technical difficulties we experienced. According to
16 my notes it is page 2, line 12 or thereabouts. Because only the part of
17 what I was saying in -- between line 7 and 12 was included in the
18 transcript as it is. At least that is the case with the transcript as I
19 can see it on my screen.
20 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] If I'm not mistake this is
21 before you see it before because I think that the last part was added on
22 to pages that were repeated.
23 Look at page 25, you go from page 1 -- yes, there are at least
24 two pages of questions put by you.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic I see your re-examination starting
1 at page 24, line 8 of my transcript, and I don't see what appears to be a
2 break, and I see where you say, Your Honour, I have no further questions
3 so everything is there. I can find it on my transcript.
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I
5 apologise. I thought it was the way I presented it.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Not a problem.
7 Mr. Dedovic, yesterday you said to us that Mr. Delic did not
8 decide on his visits to the units, that these were decided by the
10 Did I hear you correctly to say that yesterday?
11 A. Yes.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: My question to you then would be: What would have
13 been the purpose of these visits, if he didn't plan them himself?
14 A. The General did not personally decide which unit he was to visit.
15 That was done to the corps commander or one of his deputies. The
16 commander could not personally pick out a unit and say, I want to visit
17 that one.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Then today you said and this was at page 8,
19 lines 19 to 22, today's transcript, something to the effect that the
20 General made decisions on where you would travel. Let me find the actual
21 quotation so that can I quote it to you.
22 I'm not seeing it now.
23 Okay. I'm not finding it. But just correct me if I'm wrong, I
24 thought you said you were being asked about visits from one unit to the
25 next and you said, No, the General just decided where we would go, and we
1 just go there.
2 Did you say that today or did I mishear you.
3 A. Yes, the commander decided where we would be going. But upon
4 arrival at our destination he would be shown the state of the unit to be
5 visited. But he did not make the choice of which unit he would visit.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm a little confused by that answer. When you
7 say, Yes the commander decided where we would be going, that's the part
8 I'm interested in; and that part doesn't seem to reconcile with
9 yesterday's testimony, where you said, No, he doesn't make those
10 decisions. Those decisions are made by the corps command, which you have
11 just confirmed.
12 Are you able to reconcile these two apparently -- they're
13 apparently contradictory; I'm not sure.
14 A. The corps command would decide -- or, rather, they present the
15 units that in their view were to be visited. But the corps command did
16 not decide about the movements of the commander. The corps commands
17 presented the state of their units or their units to the commander the
18 way they saw fit.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Now, can you sort of explain to us how you
20 and Admir Delic carried out your duties. And what I'm particularly
21 interested in knowing is this: Did you change shifts or were you always
22 together with Mr. Delic wherever he went, the two of you who were the
24 A. I always went with General Delic.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: And Admir Delic?
1 A. Admir Delic was present most of the time.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: So in those times when Admir Delic would be
3 present, you would be also be present.
4 A. Yes.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, if we could just go back to this question of
6 announcing your imminent visits to -- to whom did you make these
8 A. To the corps command of the zone that was being visited. So it
9 would be to their operation centre at the command. The command operation
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: How did you make the announcements?
12 A. It would be an encrypted message.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. And this encrypted message was safer than
14 the radio phones that Madam Vidovic referred to a little earlier, in
15 terms of being intercepted by the Serb army?
16 A. Yes.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Now, yesterday you also told us that before
18 Mr. Delic would make a call wherever you were, if there was ever a need,
19 you would determine, first, whether the line was safe for him to speak,
20 because these lines were usually open. How did you make this
22 A. Well, it's known which devices were being used, so if it was an
23 open telephone line, it could not be used for talking.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is an open telephone line and what is not an
25 open telephone line?
1 A. It's just a normal telephone line, an unsecured, an open
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I still don't understand. Okay. If it is
4 secured, how is it secured.
5 A. No means of communication is secure. I don't know how to explain
6 it to you.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... the point and
8 I would like to get that explanation. I want to know what is an open
9 telephone line and what is a telephone line that is not open, and how you
10 determine this, particularly if a phone that is not yours. You are out
11 there travelling, and have you to phone. I just want it know that.
12 A. This is exactly what I was saying. It's just a normal telephone,
13 an open line that can be bugged. It's not a protected, secure line.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: All right. Now, if you get on to that open line
15 and you want to check that it is safe for Mr. Delic to phone, how do you
16 go about checking that? How do you go about determining that this phone
17 is safe, you can use it, sir?
18 A. That telephone with the open line is something that was never
19 used to announce things to army units.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're not -- you're getting away from my
21 question. I'm not talking about the contents of the message. I'm
22 talking about the process you go through to determine that this open line
23 is safe. Now, General Delic, you may use it and say whatever you want to
24 say, whether you want to talk the units or you want to say hello to
25 Mr. Izetbegovic, that's -- that's not for us. But you have made the
1 determination it is safe, can you use it. How do you make that
3 A. It's just a regular telephone, a normal telephone communication
4 telephone line that is unreliable and we knew this because the calls were
5 being intercepted. They were being listened into. So it was not a
6 secure, protected line.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not sure whether it is a question of
8 interpretation or is it a question of you, and I not understanding each
9 other. What you have just said doesn't answer my question, sir. You're
10 telling me that it was just a normal telephone line that is unreliable.
11 That is not what I'm asking. I'm asking who do you then say this
12 unreliable line is safe, sir, you can phone? What actions do you take to
13 make sure that the line is safe for use by the General?
14 A. I didn't say that the line was unreliable and that it cannot be
15 used. I didn't say that an unreliable line or that it cannot be used. I
16 didn't say that.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, that's why I say I don't know whether it is
18 a question of interpretation but if you look at page 7 line 8 it says --
19 you are quoted as saying or translated as saying:
20 "It's just a regular telephone. A normal telephone communication
21 telephone line that is unreliable and we know this because the calls were
22 being intercepted. They were being listened to so it was not a secure
23 protected line."
24 Now, just now have you been quoted as having said "unreliable."
25 Were you being misinterpreted?
1 A. It's an unreliable system of communication.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I suppose I can't take this matter any
3 further. We're not getting to the question that I'm putting to you, sir.
4 You know, you are just not telling me the actions you took to
5 make a determination that the line could be used by Mr. Delic. I know
6 that you say it is unreliable, but I want to know what are the steps you
7 took to ensure it can be used.
8 A. If a line is unreliable and the commander cannot use it, I didn't
9 take any further measures, because we were not able to do that. We
10 didn't have any reliable system of communications. We didn't have any
11 other system of communication.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... the
13 conclusion is you're just not answering -- prepared to answer my question
14 or we don't understand each other.
15 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think it is
17 preferable that you do not understand one another for different reasons.
18 You cannot conclude from anything that this witness said that he does not
19 wish to answer your questions. This is a conclusion that cannot be drawn
20 on the basis of anything that the witness said.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, I think I have put my question to
22 this witness more than three times and that's a conservative estimate.
23 What actions did he take to ensure the line can be used by General Delic.
24 He has never answered that question, and I'm saying to you it's -- it's
25 either he doesn't want to answer the question or we are not understanding
1 each other. I have never said I'm taking -- making any conclusion. I
2 have put two possibilities here.
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness said
4 several times, and he answered several times, that he said that those
5 telephone lines were unreliable and that, for that reason, they should
6 not have been used. But then you ask him something else. You asked him
7 what he did to make them. I mean, you're asking him something else and I
8 don't know how the witness could answer that question, how he could make
9 the telephone line reliable. He simply clearly said that the lines were
10 open and that as such they were not reliable and that he had advised
11 General Delic not to use them. This is what he answered a number of
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: You want us to go into argument now.
14 Madam Vidovic, as I understood this witness's testimony yesterday
15 he said before Mr. Delic phoned he would make sure that the line is safe.
16 He would check whether the line is safe. Obviously if he finds the line
17 not to be safe he will advise him not to phone because the line is not
18 safe. If he find it to be safe he will advise him to phone.
19 My question is what steps did he take to check that. That's all
20 I'm asking. And if you say this was not the testimony yesterday, then I
21 don't know what you're saying. But I have left that question.
22 Sir, yesterday at page 40, lines 24 to 25, there was this
23 recording on the transcript. Do you remember whether General Delic
24 received or did not receive any documents during the action? And the
25 answer was: No. General Delic did not receive any documents in that
1 period because that is something that would have been handed to me first.
2 So for sure he didn't receive any documents.
3 And yesterday at page 86, lines 4 to 9, in answer to your
4 question you said: No I personally did not hand to the commander any
5 document. And the -- next question was: Okay. So you don't know what
6 documents General Delic may have been handed or not because you were not
7 involved personally in handing documents to him. Your answer was: No, I
8 did not take part in that. I don't know anything about that.
9 Now, again, I ask you just to clear something here for me. It
10 seems as if in yesterday' testimony you say no, no, no, any documents
11 would come via you. And today you seem to say no, no, no, you didn't
12 take part in any documents so you know nothing about it. Is there
13 somewhere where you are being misinterpreted or is there something that I
14 don't understand?
15 A. To the commander in the field. Your question refers to the
16 period that the General was out in the field and whether any documents
17 were given to him. No, no documents were given to him.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: In the field. I'm not quite sure I understand
19 what you mean by the field.
20 A. I think that --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... yes,
22 Madam Vidovic.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was just about to
24 say I would like to draw the attention to the fact that the witness
25 yesterday spoke about this aspect. He already said that. I asked him
1 specifically about post about documents during combat actions out in the
2 field, and yesterday he was responding to such questions about receiving
3 documents during fighting. The Prosecutor asked him something else,
4 about receiving documents generally in different situations. This is how
5 I --
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic this witness can explain this. That
7 is why I'm putting it to him. I'm saying, look is there something that
8 I'm misunderstanding and he can explain it to me. And if can he has not
9 explained to me to your satisfaction you have the opportunity, Madam
10 Vidovic, to ask further questions after my questions. But this
11 interruption of my questions I just find it completely unacceptable.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Your apology is accepted.
14 Was that going to be your explanation, sir, just what
15 Madam Vidovic just testified to now?
16 A. Yes.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: You said in answer to a number of questions by the
18 Prosecution that you never sat in any meetings where General Delic was
19 discussing any issues that -- in the meetings that he held, and you also
20 indicated that he never commented to -- about these issues to you when
21 you were either travelling together.
22 Would that be a fair summary of what you said?
23 A. Yes.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would it also be a fair summary of your testimony
25 yesterday that you said the journalists who criticised him for travelling
1 all over the world did so because they did not know what he was doing on
2 these trips. They were sort of -- I got the impression you were saying
3 that they were misinformed.
4 Would I be right to say so?
5 A. They didn't know what General Delic's mission was in these trips.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, something like that.
7 And did you know General Delic's mission on these trips?
8 A. After those meetings, if there was a press conference, of course
9 then I would know what had happened at the meetings. But the General,
10 before that, would not speak about what it was and how things were, no.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you so much. I have no further
13 I see we have gone far beyond the time for the break.
14 We will take the break and come back at quarter to 6.00.
15 Court adjourned.
16 --- Recess taken at 5.21 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 5.44 p.m.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: There's been a request that we adjourn at 6.30
20 Madam Vidovic, do you have any questions arising from the
21 questions by the Chamber?
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.
24 MR. MUNDIS: No, Your Honours. Thank you.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
1 Sir, that brings us to the end of your testimony. Thank you so
2 much for coming to testify at the Tribunal and thank you specifically for
3 taking time from your schedule to come and do so.
4 You are now excused and you may stand down and please travel
5 safely back home.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, and thank
7 you for all of those here present for your kind hospitality. Thank you.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
9 [The witness withdrew]
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we did not expect
12 that we would have more time today, in view that we were informed that we
13 would be finishing earlier today, so our next witness is planned to start
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. In that event, then, we --
16 the Court will stand adjourned to tomorrow at quarter past 2.00,
17 Courtroom II.
18 Court adjourned.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.47 p.m.,
20 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 10th day of
21 April, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.