1 Thursday, 17 April 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 8.58 a.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in and around the
8 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honour, good morning everyone
10 in the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-83-T, The Prosecutor versus
11 Rasim Delic.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
13 Could we please have appearances for today, starting with the
15 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning to Your
16 Honours, to my learned colleagues from the Defence, General Delic, the
17 witness, and everyone in and around the courtroom. Daryl Mundis and
18 Aditya Menon for the Prosecution, assisted by Alma Imamovic our case
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: And for the Defence.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, good
22 morning to the colleagues from the Office of the Prosecutor, to everyone
23 in and around the courtroom. Vasvija Vidovic and Nicholas Robson for the
24 Defence of General Delic with legal assistant Lejla Gluhic.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.
1 Good morning, sir, and welcome back again.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we go to talking to you, Mr. Witness, I
4 don't want to call you by name because of obvious reasons. I just want
5 to say that the Chamber is sitting pursuant to 15 bis because Judge
6 Harhoff is indisposed, if the record can show that.
7 Okay. Sir, you must now be knowing the procedure. I will ask
8 you to make the declaration before you can give your evidence.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
10 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
11 WITNESS: WITNESS PW-9 [Resumed]
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
13 Madam Vidovic.
14 Further cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. PW-9.
16 I'm sorry that we had to recall you as a witness. Unfortunately,
17 a new situation arose in that we came by new documents that we didn't
18 have occasion to show to you, and we believe that they might have help
19 the Trial Chamber in shedding light on certain facts.
20 My apologies, again, for recalling you.
21 Let me repeat what I told you earlier. We speak the same
22 language. I will do my best to speak as slowly as possible, but I appeal
23 to you to make a short pause before answering my question.
24 Do you understand?
25 A. I do.
1 Q. You gave a written statement on the 12th of November, 2007, and
2 it was admitted into evidence under the number 826.
3 In paragraph 52 of the statement, you described the structure of
4 the El Mujahedin Detachment after Abu Maali had taken up command from
5 Dr. Abu Haris. Do you remember that?
6 A. I remember explaining the structure of the detachment at that
8 Q. For Dr. Abu Haris, you said that, after the command was taken
9 over, I quote, "he was in charge of foreign contacts," which meant
10 communication with foreign countries with a view to obtaining funds,
11 donations, and so on and so forth.
12 Do you recall stating that?
13 A. Yes, I do remember saying that. Abu Haris was charged with
14 submitting reports and sending reports abroad, raising funds and making
15 sure that certain funds were secured for special purposes, and so on and
16 so forth. Whatever had to do with matters abroad was within his
18 Q. Thank you very much. I will now ask you to have a look at a
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown
21 Exhibit 1201, page 10 in the English version and 1 in the Bosnian
22 version. Exhibit 1201. Let me direct the attention of court officers to
23 the following fact, that the original of the document is in the English
24 language and the relevant page of that version is page 10 and the Bosnian
25 version is page 1. The relevant number -- page number is D001-1218.
1 Page 1 of the Bosnian version, please. I think that that's the
3 Q. Witness, please read this document through.
4 A. I've read it.
5 Q. I have a couple of questions for you relating to this document.
6 First of all, can you see the name at the bottom of the page?
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the document be scrolled down
8 please so as to see the name. In the English version, that's the
9 following page.
10 Can we just turn to the following page in the English version to
11 have a look at the name, and can we then go back to the same page we were
12 on now.
13 Q. While we're waiting for the page to appear on the screens for
14 Their Honours' benefit, let me ask you this: On the 30th of March, 1995,
15 Dr. Abu Haris was still at the command of the detachment, was he not?
16 A. Yes, that's correct.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we, yes, now turn to the
18 previous page in the English version. Thank you.
19 Q. We can see the heading here which says some important matters,
20 followed by ten points or ten of these important matters.
21 I want to direct your attention to point 1 below the heading
22 "Reading some important matters," and it says: "Mistakes have been made
23 within the organisation insofar as tasks have been given to some brothers
24 who are not qualified, such as, for example Abu Abdel Aziz, Abu Ayoub,
25 another Abu Ayoub, and Abu Sara.
1 Did you know any of these individuals?
2 A. I knew Abu Sara and Abu Ayoub, but I'm not sure who Abu Aziz is.
3 Q. The two individuals, you say you knew them, can you tell us who
4 they were and how you came to know them?
5 A. I knew them as members of the El Mujahedin Detachment. Abu Ayoub
6 is Abu Ayoub Sambrani from Saudi Arabia, and Abu Sara is from Yemen.
7 Q. Thank you. In your evidence of the 15th of November, 2007, pages
8 5638 [Realtime transcript read in error "5238"] of the transcript, you
9 answered questions concerned Abu Zuhair, and you said, "Abu Zuhair
10 Handala was not a member of the El Mujahedin Detachment, nor was he, to
11 my knowledge, a member of other units. He had a group of his own."
12 Do you recall stating that?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me just correct
15 the transcript. I was referring to page "5638," and it was entered
16 as "5238." So I was referring to the transcript at page 5638.
17 Q. Witness, please look at a point 7 of this letter, which states:
18 "The entry of Al Zohair's group in the weapon market and the purchase of
19 weapons at very low prices ..." --
20 A. Very high prices.
21 Q. I apologise. " ... very high prices, which has led to a
22 reduction, decrease in the number of weapons arriving at the battalion."
23 Let me ask you this: Al Zohair whom you referred to previously
24 and his group you mentioned were involved there arms trafficking, were
25 they not?
1 A. I'm not sure whether they were selling weapons to other units,
2 but they were buying weapons. This was a newly set up group. They
3 received donations from Arabic countries; and, to my knowledge, they
4 started purchasing weapons for their own purposes, for their needs.
5 At the time, most of the procurement of weapons of the detachment
6 came from the black market. For that reason, the prices soared, and this
7 was because of the dealings of Handala's group.
8 Q. In other words, this relevant sentence of the document does
9 reflect the actual situation?
10 A. Yes, that's correct.
11 Q. Let me ask you something else in relation to this document.
12 In your evidence of the 16th of November, 2007, you said that the
13 detachment had its personnel service. I'm referring to page 5677 of the
14 transcript, where you said that there was a special service for the newly
15 arriving Arabs, a command for the Arabs that would take their passports
16 but did not forward them to the 3rd Corps, although he insisted on that
18 You said that they only received information relating to
19 nicknames. Do you recall that?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. Please look at point 2 of this letter.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Excuse me. I would like to understand who is the
23 "he" is who insisted on the matter.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The 3rd Corps, that is, Your
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The 3rd Corps is a "he"?
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know how it
3 was entered the transcript. I was referring to the 3rd Corps that
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The 3rd Corps insisted, so the hierarchy in the
6 3rd Corps insisted.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. You said that you recall giving that statement, did you not?
11 A. Yes, I remember that.
12 Q. I referred you to point 2 of the letter, which states: "Some
13 brothers, not those in charge, have become aware of some secrets that are
14 regarded as personal secrets, such as, for example, the personal file on
15 each brother -- secret file."
16 Let me ask you this: It is true, is it not, that the personal
17 data of the Arabic members of the detachment were treated as a secret
18 among the members of the unit to themselves.
19 A. Yes, that's true. A special service was competent for the
20 personal data of the Arabs. It was the so-called special command for the
21 Arab, which, at this time - and I see the date of this document is late
22 March 1995 - meaning in early 1995, the service was taken over by
23 Dzulajbib from Saudi Arabia. I think that I discussed these matters
24 previously, th problems that emerged between Dzulajbib and the commander
25 of the detachment; and then he, together with other members of the
1 detachment, left the detachment and joined Abu Zubeir's group. I can
2 explain this in greater detail, if you wish, the situation I mean, but I
3 believe this thank this point refers to that time-period.
4 Q. Thank you, Witness. I will be coming back to these problems in
5 relation to another document perhaps.
6 Now, I'd like to refer you to point 4 of the document, which says
7 that the Bosnian have become aware of some problems occurring among the
8 Arabs in the detachment.
9 Is this time-period, the 30th of March, 1995, really the
10 time-period when problems occurred among Arabs in the detachment, to your
12 A. That was the period of the most serious critical internal
13 problems of the detachment, which threatened to cause the detachment to
14 disband. Thankfully, this is not the way matters ended.
15 Q. Thank you. Please now look at page -- or point 5. It speaks
16 about Abu Dajana - if the name is spelled correctly - who gave the entire
17 contents of the warehouse, which is illegible here, in the city of
18 Travenc to Al Zobair's group after the decision to dismiss him from the
19 job and the appointment of some brothers.
20 Then look at point 10 which also speaks about Abu Dajana and the
21 handing of the warehouse contents to Abu Zobair.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the English version please be
23 scrolled down.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: We need the English version, please.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Page 10 speaks of the same person, Abu Dajana, and the handing
2 over of the contents of the warehouse to the Abu Zubeir group, the
3 intervention of brother Abu Isa, in an attempt to have the goods returned
4 with the assistance of the battalion command, and then -- it speaks of
5 the problems between these two individuals.
6 You've just mentioned some problems, Witness. Does this document
7 reflect what the problems were, and do you know who Abu Issa is?
8 A. Let me first explain here you're saying here Abu Dajana. No, the
9 name is Abu Didzana, another Saudi, who participated in this sort of an
10 attempt to take over power of the El Mujahedin Detachment, sort of a
11 coup, if you will. He was also from Saudi Arabia. After the attempt
12 failed, he was dismissed from the detachment. Since the warehouse -- the
13 goods at the warehouse were within his competence, he handed them over
14 fully to Abu Zubeir's group and joined the group.
15 Q. So this document speaks about a sort of a friction or
16 misunderstanding between the Abu Zubeir's group and the members of the
17 El Mujahedin Detachment?
18 A. Yes. Among other things, it speaks also of that.
19 Q. Now, do you agree that, with this document, Abu Haris is
20 informing the recipient of the document of the various problems occurring
21 at the time within the detachment itself, certain mistakes with relation
22 to secret files, problems with the Zubeir's group, and so on and so
23 forth? Would you accept that?
24 A. Yes. I think this document was sent to Sheik Enver Saban. I see
25 the heading is -- that it references to the Islamic Centre in Milan, and
1 Sheik Enver was in Milan then. He returned at the end of 1994 when his
2 family arrived Bosnia.
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The document has already been enter
4 into evidence. I just wanted us to understand it.
5 Could the witness now be shown document D1078. This document can
6 be removed, and I would like the witness to see document 1078, please.
7 For the record, it is a document dated the 24th of June, 2002,
8 The Agency for Investigation and Documentation Aid, and the heading is
10 Q. Would you please, first of all, look at the last page of this
11 document to see the signature.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Then we can return to the
13 beginning, and the English version too, the last page, please.
14 Q. Witness, I don't expect to you have seen this document, but I
15 would like to ask you regarding some facts that are referred to in this
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now return to page 1 of this
18 document, please.
19 Q. Witness, would you be kind enough to read page 1.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could it be rolled up so that the
21 whole page is on the screen of the English and Bosnian versions.
22 Q. And I would like to ask you to read the document, starting from:
23 "Specifically," that is the second paragraph, until the end of this page.
24 Actually, you read until the end of the paragraph that ends with
25 the words "BIF, humanitarian organisation."
1 A. I have finished reading the passages you asked me to read.
2 Q. Thank you. I would now like to draw your attention to the part
3 of the text which mentions certain names, about the middle of the
4 paragraph, where the names are mentioned: Ahmed Abu Zuhair, Nebil Al
5 Hail, Khaled el Saef, Ali Ahmed Alham Ali Hamad [as interpreted], Ahmed
6 Al Kamis, Lionel Dumont, Benijem Musaferini, Molud Bukhelan. I apologise
7 if I mispronounce the names.
8 Would you please tell us, if you can, whether you knew any of
9 these people; and if you did, which?
10 A. Personally, I knew, among those listed, Nebil Al Hail, known as
11 Abu Yemen; and Lionel Dumont. As for the other names, I know Mahmud [as
12 interpreted] Zuhair, he was known as Abu Hamzala; and Khaled el Saif is
13 also a name I know, but I didn't meet him personally; as well as Ali
14 Ahmed Ali Hamad. I don't think I met him.
15 Q. Not one of these men was a member of the El Mujahedin Detachment
16 was he?
17 A. Lionel Dumont was a member.
18 Q. When did he leave the detachment?
19 A. I think he stayed until the very end, but I could not claim that
20 with certainty.
21 Q. Very well. I would now like to ask you the following:
22 Testifying -- just let me ask you in connection with these other persons
23 who were not members, with the exception of the last one you mentioned,
24 that is, Lionel Dumont. What about the other members, did they belong to
25 the detachment or did they belong to some other groups?
1 A. The others did not belong to the detachment. They were either
2 members of the Ahmed Zuhair Handala's or members of Zubeir's group. Of
3 course, there are two names that I don't know at all, but I do believe
4 that, had they been members of the detachment, I would recall their
6 Q. Thank you. I wish now to remind you that testifying on the
7 15th of November, 2007, page 5628 of the transcript, you said that you
8 knew of groups of Arabs who were active in Gluha Bukovica,
9 Zeljezno Polje, Bistricak, and Tesanj, and you said that they were not
10 groups that belonged to the El Mujahedin Detachment. Do you remember
11 saying that?
12 A. Yes, I do, and that is how it was.
13 Q. I would now like you to look at the last of the document or the
14 part of the document that you have read out and which describes the areas
15 where the Arabs were active: Tesanj, Zepca, Zeljezno Polje, Zenica,
16 Bistricak, Orasac, Travnik, Kalesija, and Konjic.
17 My questions is: Are those areas where the Arabs were active?
18 A. Yes. They are areas in which the Arabs were active. There was a
19 group in Tesanj. In Zeljezno Polje, there actually two groups; that is,
20 in the municipality of Zepca, Zubeir's group and Ali Handala's group. In
21 Bistricak, there was a group, Enam Arnaut, who is mentioned at the end of
22 this paragraph. Orasac was the training centre for El Mujahedin. I know
23 that there was a group in Konjic attached to the Muslim Brigade.
24 Q. Thank you. Will you now look at the next paragraph of this
25 document, please, the paragraph that goes on until the end of the page,
1 and I think we will save time if I read it out to you.
2 It describes the unit known as Zubeir's group, and it says it was
3 characterised that its actions during the war did not adhere to strict
4 military principle; namely, members of this unit took part in military
5 operations spearheading through lines and spent the remainder of their
6 time as civilians. In addition, previous intelligence activities showed
7 that most of the members of this group committed terrorist acts in the
8 territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
9 My question now is as follows. The last time you testified of
10 Abu Zubeir's group on the 15th of November, 2007 - I'm referring to page
11 5629 - and you described Abu Zubeir's group as an informal group, an
12 almost illegal group.
13 Do you remember that?
14 A. Yes, I do. So Abu Zubeir's group was exactly as described in
15 this document.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document be
18 given an exhibit number, please.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
20 please be given an exhibit number.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become Exhibit
22 number 1384.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
24 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may we now go no
1 closed session, please?
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into closed session.
3 [Closed session]
11 Pages 8645-8646 redacted. Closed session.
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session now.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
15 Yes, you may proceed, Madam Vidovic.
16 Can we open the curtain, please.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. On the basis of your testimony, I conclude that you, members of
19 the El Mujahedin Detachment, knew that there were various Arab groups
20 that were not under the control of the detachment. This is what you told
21 us today; is that right?
22 A. Yes, that's right.
23 Q. The command of the El Mujahedin Detachment commanded discipline,
24 did it not?
25 A. I believe I said a great deal about this. There was firm
1 military discipline in place in the detachment.
2 Q. The command did not condone criminal activities and conduct of
3 the groups that did not belong to it. Is that right?
4 A. Of course, it did not approve of it, or condone it.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I now wish the witness to be shown
6 Exhibit 1200. This is a document, the original of which is in Arabic.
7 Can the English and Bosnian versions be shown on the screen, please.
8 Q. You can see that this is a bulletin of the El Mujahedin
9 Detachment in Bosnia Herzegovina; a newsletter, that is. It says that is
10 a periodical newsletter issued by the information service of the
11 detachment. It is said that it is issued in Bosnia and distributed to
12 all Islamic centres and associations.
13 Did you know that such a news letter existed?
14 A. The news letter existed. It was edited to by Abu Haris who we
15 referred to a moment ago. But it was called the Call of Jihad. Perhaps
16 in the English versions, it is -- the translation is the same. But in
17 the B/C/S, it was not "posif" but "zov."
18 Q. Very well. We were translating from the Arabic version. Was
19 this document produced in Arabic?
20 A. It's original version was Arabic. It was intended, just as it
21 says here, for information to be provided abroad; and not only Arabic
22 countries, but to all those -- it was intended for all those countries
23 from which the detachment received or expected funds or donations.
24 Q. This document was not sent to the commands of the BH army, was
1 A. No, of course, it was not. It was intended exclusively for the
2 countries abroad.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we turn to page 2 of the
5 document, of both the Bosnian and English versions.
6 Q. I would like to direct your attention to the paragraph 3,
7 starting with the following words: "Also, relations and movements of
8 Mujahids ..."
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]That's the way it starts in the
10 English version, Your Honours. It is somewhere in the middle of the
12 Q. I will quote only a small portion of the document.
13 It reads: "Also, relations and movements of Mujahids are
14 conditioned by the thing that keeps legitimacy of Jihad and its special
15 character, and the detachment announced several times that it did not
16 take responsibility for actions and offences of individuals or groups
17 that did not belong to it."
18 Can you comment on this portion of the document?
19 A. I believe that I spoke about this issue in my previous testimony.
20 The main task of the El Mujahedin Detachment, or of the Arab volunteers
21 who formed the detachment, was missionary work in addition to a defence
22 war. It is highly important for missionary work that the general
23 population place trust in those -- or trust those who are calling upon
24 them to join the Islamic community. That's why preserving the dignity of
25 the Jihad and of the Arabic soldiers was one of the priorities of the
1 detachment. It could not be tainted by any sort of criminal activity or
2 even misconduct or indecent behaviour and so on and so forth.
3 Q. Let me ask you this: It says here that: "The detachment said
4 several times that it did not assume responsibility for conduct or
5 offences of individuals or groups that did not belong to it."
6 It is true, is it not, that, in fact, it was members of other
7 groups and other individuals who engaged in misconduct or misdemeanour
8 and not members of the El Mujahedin Detachment; or in your words, how
9 would you describe it or explain it?
10 A. That's correct. Such behaviour was not tolerated in the
11 detachment; and if it did take place, such persons would be punished or
12 dismissed from the detachment. I believe I even said that once the
13 detachment helped the military police of the 3rd Corps to apprehend and
14 penalise some member of the Abu Zubeir's group who engaged in such
16 Q. It says here that the detachment stated this on several
17 occasions, that they did not assume responsibility for such matters.
18 Is it true that you did have a way of making it public, of
19 sending the message across, that you did not assume responsibility for
20 such actions?
21 A. I know that the detachment distanced itself on several occasions,
22 and this was upon the queries from the 3rd Corps or the security services
23 in Zenica; but I am not aware of any public statements having been made
24 by the detachment for the media to that effect.
25 Q. Thank you. In your testimony of the 15th of November, 2007, on
1 page 5636 of the transcript, you said that this was something that
2 happened throughout the time. People were not aware of the fact that
3 there existed various groups and they were not aware of the relations
4 among them, and it was simple enough to say for any such individual that
5 he was an Arab from the El Mujahedin Detachment even though this was not
6 the case, in fact.
7 Do you recall stating that?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. You said that you distanced yourselves. Is it, in fact, true
10 that the detachment explained to both the military services and the
11 police upon their inquiries that it was not the detachment's members who
12 were involved in these incidents or who were causing these incidents?
13 A. Yes, that's correct.
14 Q. Is it true that the military services and the police services
15 simply attributed such incidents to the El Mujahedin Detachment without
16 verifying what the case was?
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Mundis.
18 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, perhaps if it can be clarified what
19 incident or incidents my learned colleague is referring to.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honour.
22 Q. Various offences were attributed to the El Mujahedin Detachment:
23 Assaults on girls and boys, smashing of bottles containing alcohol,
24 assaults on various individuals, threats. Do you recall that? Did you
25 have any knowledge of that?
1 A. Yes, I'm aware of that. There was a particularly characteristic
2 case when an Arab fired shots over the heads of those who were swimming
3 in the Bosna river near Zenica, simply because the girls were naked, in
4 their view, but wearing bathing suits; and then there were also
5 mistreatment of girls and young boys, that you referred to, who were
6 happened upon in the parks, simply because they were not married.
7 Q. Do you know if such conduct was always attributed by the Bosnian
8 authorities to members of the El Mujahedin Detachment?
9 A. I would say that the population, in general, could not
10 distinguish between the various groups. They knew them as the
11 El Mujahedin Detachment. As far as the official authorities go, the
12 police, the public security services; and to my knowledge, they did the
13 effort to double-check whether it was, in fact, a member of the
14 El Mujahedin Detachment who was a perpetrator of an offence.
15 Q. And did the detachment let them know whether the perpetrator was
16 their member or not?
17 A. Yes, it did.
18 Q. Thank you very much. Let me move on to something else now.
19 I will move on to a different topic which has to do with the
20 battles that you were an eye-witness of and that you testified about.
21 In your testimony of the 15th of November, 2007, you were
22 answering questions put to you by the Prosecutor concerning the battle
23 for Biska Glava [as interpreted] and another location. That's pages of
24 the transcript 5596 to 5601.
25 At page 5601, you said the following: "No one outside the
1 El Mujahedin Detachment was involved in the planning of the operation,"
2 and you were referring to the Pisana Jelika and Biska Glava -- Visoka
4 Do you recall stating that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now I would like you to look at document 1102.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Again, Your Honours, this is an
8 original Arabic document, and I would like to us look at the Bosnian and
9 English versions of it. Now the Bosnian version, please. Thank you.
10 Can we turn to the last page of the document to see the date.
11 The last page of the document, please, of both versions.
12 Q. We can see here that it says the El Mujahedin Detachment,
13 information section, the 11th of November, 1994. You explained to us
14 that there was an information section in the El Mujahedin Detachment. Is
15 that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Please bear in mind the date, the 11th of November, 1994.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And can we turn to the first page
19 in the document in both versions.
20 Q. Witness, please read the portion of the document starting with:
21 "Following the blessed operation in September," through to the end of the
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the document be zoomed in on so
24 that we can see the bottom part of the document, or rather, that we can
25 see the end of the page in both versions. Thank you very much.
1 Q. So the part starting with: "Following the blessed operation in
2 September," through to the end of the page.
3 A. I've read it.
20 [Private session]
11 Pages 8655-8658 redacted. Private session.
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
22 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to ask the witness
24 to look at document D1105.
25 For the record, it is the third report, the battle El Fethul
1 Mubin, a clear victory, dated the 31st of May, 1995.
2 Could we have the Bosnian and English versions on the screen,
3 because the original document is in Arabic. Thank you very much.
4 Q. I would like to ask you the following. Does the title, "El
5 Fethul Mubin," or, "The Lines of Bosnia," mean anything to you, if I have
6 read it out properly?
7 A. El Fethul Mubin means "clear victory."
8 Q. Do you know what it is really about?
9 A. It is the name of the press centre of the detachment for our
10 operation on the Vozuca battle front in May 1995.
11 Q. Thank you. This battle, did it take place on the 29th of May,
12 1995, at the end of May 1995?
13 A. At the end of May, certainly. Now whether it is the 29th or the
14 27th, I would rather say it was the 27th; but, in any event, it was at
15 the end of the month.
16 Q. Thank you. Did this battle occur close to feature 706, mentioned
17 in the first sentence of the document? Would you please read it, and
18 then answer my question.
19 A. I have read it now.
20 Q. I asked you whether this battle occurred close to Elevation 706
21 that is mentioned in the first sentence of this document.
22 A. Elevation 706 is one of three which the El Mujahedin Detachment
23 captured on that day.
24 Q. Does this report describe the battle in the way it took place?
25 A. It describes the events immediately after the battle, but one can
1 say that it does relate to the fighting around Podsjelovo.
2 Q. Thank you. We see, at the end of this report, "el Maali." Tell
3 me, at this time, that is at the end of May, 1995, was the emir of the
4 attachment Abu el Maali?
5 A. Yes. At that time, Abu Maali was the commander of the
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. And do you remember whether there was a fog during that battle?
10 A. There was some fog around that time. But on the day of the
11 operation itself, early in the morning, I think there was no fog. But
12 earlier on, there was. It was foggy.
13 Q. Thank you. Would you agree with me that this is a military
14 report again sent to the institute in Milan?
15 A. Yes, one could put it that way. While the operations were
16 ongoing, daily reports were being sent. So this may be the continuation
17 of a previous report which probably described the operation in greater
19 Q. And when you say that reports were being sent around that time,
20 could you say to whom they were sent?
21 A. I know some places they were sent to, not all of them. They were
22 sent, in the first place, to the Islamic Cultural Institute in Milan;
23 then to some associates of the detachment in Kuwait, in Great Britain, in
24 the United States, Saudi Arabia, the Emirates, to Kuwait, to many
25 different addresses.
1 Q. What my question is whether those reports were being send to the
2 commands of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
3 A. They were reports intended, as I already said, to foreign
4 countries; that is, to detachment associates who were collecting relief
5 funds and donations for the detachment.
6 Q. Do you have any idea why this report was sent to the Milan
7 institute, not just this one but previous ones as well, to the institute
8 in Milan?
9 A. The institute in Milan was founded and run by Sheik Enver; and
10 while he was in Bosnia, he was in charge of the Milan institute, and I
11 believe that he was some kind of intermediary that forwarded the report
12 on after that.
13 Q. I'll come back to that question later.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may this document be
15 admitted into evidence.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
17 please be given an exhibit number.
18 THE REGISTRAR: The document will become Exhibit number 1387.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
20 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now look at
22 D1106, please.
23 Could we have the English and Bosnian versions on the screen,
24 because the document in the original is in Arabic.
25 Q. Will you please have a look at the document first. Let me know
1 when you have read through it .
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, while the witness is
3 reading, I wish to make a correction in the transcript.
4 In answer to my question on page 31, line 6, whether the reports
5 were sent to the commands of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the
6 witness gave a clear answer and the first part of the answer has not been
8 Q. So I wish to ask you, Witness, once again, to clear this up:
9 Were these reports, or this last report that you saw, was this and such
10 reports sent to the commands of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
11 That was my question, and please repeat your answer.
12 A. These reports were not sent to the command of the 3rd Corps, nor
13 to any other command of the army. The reports were solely intended for
14 foreign countries.
15 Q. Thank you. Please focus on the document now.
16 A. I've read it.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we turn to page 2 of the
18 document, please, in both versions. Very well.
19 Q. You mentioned repeatedly the addresses to which these bulletins
20 or newsletters were sent. Do you see the names of some centres written
21 here, and are you familiar with any of them?
22 A. Yes. I do recognise some names and some individuals on this
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we scroll down the English, please. Thank
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Can you tell us which names you are familiar with?
3 A. The first name on the list, Sheik Tarik el Issa, is the president
4 of the organisation of Islamic Rebirth in Kuwait; then Abu Hamza Masari,
5 you recall that is the person who doesn't have the arm, and he was in the
6 Britain before coming a member of the detachment; then I know Mustafa
7 Fehmi who was in Switzerland, in Zurich I believe; then Ebu Maiz from
8 Saudi Arabia, who was not staying there at that time, and I don't know
9 where he was. Judging by the number which was used to send this to him,
10 I'd say it was an Arabic country but not Saudi Arabia.
11 Then I also know Abu Musab Qatari, who was wounded in the
12 detachment at Visoka Glava, and he went back to Qatar; Ebu Mann [as
13 interpreted] from Kuwait, I also know him. Other names are familiar to
14 me, but I don't know them.
15 Q. Thank you very much.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted into
17 evidence, please.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
19 please be given an exhibit number.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become Exhibit
21 number 1388.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. While testifying a moment ago, you referred to Sheik Saman, the
25 director of the Islamic Cultural Institute. In your testimony of the
1 15th of November, 2007, page 5661 of the transcript, page 5661 of the
2 transcript, you answered the following question: "Would it be correct to
3 say that Sheik was the idealogical and political leader whom the members
4 of the detachment turned to and acknowledged?"
5 You said: "That's true. He was the true authority for the
6 detachment commander."
7 You said that in answer to the question. Do you recall that?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we can remove the
11 document now, and I want the witness to be shown video 50.
12 Your Honours, before the video is played, let me state that it
13 has got English subtitles. We have made a transcript in the Bosnian
14 language; and before the video is played, I want the witness to be given
15 the Bosnian transcript so that he can follow.
16 It's been entered into e-court under the number D1099, and a copy
17 was provided to the interpreters.
18 Q. Witness, as soon as you recognise a familiar face --
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... to the
20 Prosecution first, please.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Whenever you recognise an individual on the video, a person you
23 knew or heard of, please say "stop." We will pause the tape and ask you
24 to give your comment.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now be shown video 50,
2 [Videotape played]
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Go ahead, Witness.
5 A. I recognise Sheik Ali Abdul Azi, aka "Red Beard." I didn't meet
6 him personally, but I recognise him from the many video recordings I saw
7 of his statements for the media and from the many newspaper articles I
8 read of him.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, let us state that
10 the witness comments upon the part of the video-clip numbered 0004 -- at
11 0004 minutes.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Mundis.
13 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, I simply rise to perhaps suggest that,
14 in light of the fact that the witness has been provided a copy of the
15 transcript of this tape, it does, in fact, contain some names and it
16 might not be the best way to go forward, if my learned friend is going to
17 have the witness identify people on the video, when, in fact, this
18 transcript has names of people, which the witness has before him.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Witness, can you please put the transcript away. Very well.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Will the court officer please take the transcript
23 away. Thank you.
24 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Please pay the tape.
2 [Videotape played]
3 THE WITNESS: [In English] Stop.
4 [Interpretation] I recognise Sheik Selman Sauda from Saudi Arabia
5 from Kasim, from Bureida. He assisted the collection of funds and
6 donations for the El Mujahedin Detachment.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I state for the record, Your
9 Honours, that the witness has commented upon a still at 0030, video 50,
10 00030 -- or rather, 0030.
11 THE WITNESS: [In English] Stop, stop.
12 [Interpretation] I recognise Sheik Abdul Mesid Udani from Yemen.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. What is it you know of this man, if you know anything?
15 A. Sheik Abdul Mesid Udani also received reports from the
16 detachment. I don't know whether he donated funds or raised some funds
17 for the detachment. I only know that he was in contact with us.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, let me just state
19 that the witness commented upon an individual who can be seen at
20 0041 minutes of video 50.
21 Can we play the tape, please.
22 [Videotape played]
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I recognise Sheik Ahmer Abdul Ahman
24 [as interpreted]. I don't think that the detachment maintained any
25 contacts with him. I believe he was in prison in the United States at
1 the time.
2 Q. When you say "at that time," what time are you referring to?
3 A. The time of war in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, let me state that
6 the witness referred to the image at -- at 0044 of video 50.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could the witness please say the name of the
8 person, just before we go on with the video.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sheik Omar Abdel-Rahman.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we play the tape.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Wait a minute.
13 Yes, please, ma'am, it is it because the word is typed here is
14 not absolutely what the witness said. Could we just get it correct:
15 Sheik Omar Abdel-Rahman. That is what he said.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is Abdel-Rahman one name?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]One name, yes, that is correct.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, please.
20 [Videotape played]
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you play the tap back a bit.
22 [Videotape played]
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Further back, please.
24 I think this is Sheik Ahmed Saif who visited us in 1995, and I
25 mean the detachment. He is from Yemen.
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, the witness
2 referred to the image from video 50 at 0102.
3 Can we play the tape, please.
4 [Videotape played]
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Sheik Abu Talah. In 1995,
6 he was supposed to visit the detachment but he went missing in Croatia.
7 There were suspicions of the Croatian authorities having arrested him and
8 extradited him to Egypt. He was a resident in Denmark.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Let us move ahead and
10 state, for the transcript, that the witness referred to 0104 of video 50.
11 [Videotape played]
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is Sheik Enver Saban.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness referred to the portion
14 of video 50 at 0110 seconds.
15 [Videotape played]
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Witness, the last individual you recognised was Sheik Saban, and
18 you heard the following being said on the video: "Many young men from
19 various Islamic countries got ready and went to the Jihad in Bosna. By
20 Allah's will, a driving force for the Jihad grew in Europe thanks to
21 efforts of those who invoked Islam. In that context, it says they were
22 headed by Sheik Enver Al Saran [as interpreted], God have mercy on him,
23 who established some training summer camps."
24 To your knowledge about the role of Sheik, did he really set up
25 training camps in Bosnia, summer camps for training?
1 A. Since Sheik Enver Saban was one of the individuals who were
2 responsible, to put it that way, for the setting up the El Mujahedin
3 Detachment, and since the detachment had its camps, this might refer to
4 the training camps of the El Mujahedin Detachment. I don't know which
5 others they could have referred to. There were no summer training camps,
6 because camps were open in -- throughout the year.
7 Q. But we're referring to Sheik Enver Saban as someone who set up
8 the training camps?
9 A. Well, Sheik Enver Saban was the one in charge, so one could put
10 it that way.
11 Q. Thank you. You said that Sheik Saban was the man in charge. He
12 was number one. Is the gist of your testimony that the commanders of the
13 El Mujahedin Detachment acknowledged the authority of Sheik Saban?
14 A. Yes, absolutely.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the video be assigned an
16 exhibit number; video 50, that is?
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Video 50 is admitted into evidence. May it please
18 be given an exhibit number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, video 50 will become Exhibit number
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
22 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can the witness now
24 be shown D1107. Let me state for the transcript that the original of the
25 document is in Italian, and I'd like us to look at the English and
1 Bosnian versions of the document on our screens. Document D1107.
2 Can we turn to page 1 of the Bosnian version.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Mundis.
4 MR. MUNDIS: Just a point of clarification, Your Honour. Was the
5 associated transcript with video 50 being tendered or admitted or what is
6 the status of the associated transcript which was marked D1099, if we
7 could please get that for the record?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: We haven't heard anything about D1099, so it's not
9 in evidence.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this was the Bosnian
11 version the transcript, but there is no need, Your Honours, to tender
12 that. That was the Bosnian version that was given to the witness, and
13 there is no need for it to be admitted into evidence since the witness
14 heard the interpretation through his headphones. Therefore, there is no
15 need to admitted the Bosnian transcript; and as far as I could see, the
16 speaker spoke English, the speaker on the video.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
18 Indeed, I wanted to ask the witness if he recognised the voice of
19 the speaker.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't hear the speaker's
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness listened
23 to the interpretation.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, page 1 of the Bosnian
1 version, I see it is already on the screen, and page 3 of the English
3 Q. Witness, I'd like to tell you that this is an intercepted the
4 conversation between Abdul Al Aziz and Anwar Saban. Could you now please
5 look at the part of the document where Anwar Saban is speaking. It is
6 actually the beginning of the third paragraph, and it says: "I have sent
7 two lads from here.
8 Can you see that?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. Anwar Saban says: "I have sent two lads from here. They will be
11 with Abu El Haret in the next few days. They will be a great help to
12 him. They are excellent."
13 Then look at the next sentence, and it says: "Another two
14 brothers have arrived from Bahrain. They are brother Abu Halad and
15 brother Mohammed el Fatif.
16 My first question is: Have you heard of these two persons
17 mentioned in the last sentence that I have read out?
18 A. I did meet Abu Halad myself. As for Muhamed el Fatif, I don't
19 know who that person is.
20 Q. The person that you met, can you tell us who he was?
21 A. He was a Saudi, Abu Halad. He had some earlier experience, so he
22 was included in the training centre of the El Mujahedin Detachment.
23 Q. Thank you. I now wish to remind you of the part of your
24 statement when you testified on the 15th of November, 2007, page 5641 of
25 the transcript.
1 You were talking about the specific structure of the El Mujahedin
2 Detachment. You said that, by formation and in accordance with army
3 rules, it was to be an anti-sabotage detachment which would consist of
4 three companies; but El Mujahedin actually functioned on the basis of
5 different principles and according to a different kind of organisation.
6 Do you remember saying that?
7 A. Yes, I do, of course.
8 Q. I would now like to ask you to look at the part of the document
9 when Abu Abdel Aziz is speaking. It is above the previous paragraph,
10 when he says: "Let us hope so. Abu Haris has called me from Bosnia and
11 told me that he needs commanders on several fronts."
12 It says, actually, that: "Abu el Harat called me from Bosnia and
13 tells me that he needs commanders on the various fronts."
14 Do you see that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Would you agree that the Arab commanders of the detachment came
17 from abroad?
18 A. Well, of course, they all came from abroad. Some came earlier,
19 some later on, but they all came from abroad.
20 Q. So he was not appointed by the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
21 A. Of course not.
22 Q. Actually, the Command Staff of the detachment was sent to Bosnia
23 and Herzegovina by Sheik Saban, wasn't it so?
24 A. Yes. They came upon the recommendation of Sheik Anwar Saban or
25 upon the recommendation of some other friends of the detachment, if I may
1 call them that.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can this document be
4 admitted into evidence and given a number?
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
6 please be given an exhibit number.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become Exhibit
8 number 1390.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
10 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness now look at
12 document D1097. I wish to say that this is a set of photographs
13 confiscated in the Islamic Cultural Institute in Milan, and could this
14 previous document be removed. Can you remove this one so we can see the
15 first page of the next document.
16 Your Honour, we're showing this merely to see the origin of the
17 photographs. Could you now show page 5 of the document, please; page 5
18 of this document.
19 Could the top photograph be enlarged, please.
20 Q. Witness, I'd like to ask you to tell us whether you recognise
21 anyone on this photograph; and, if so, could you tell us who the person
22 is. I think you have an electronic marker. You remember using that last
24 If you recognise anyone, could you just tell us who they are.
25 A. This is Sheik Abu Abdel Aziz that we mentioned a moment ago. I
1 recognise him.
2 Q. Witness, could you put Sheik A.A. Aziz?
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. Do you recognise anyone else?
5 A. Yes, I do. The person next to him is the Travnik mufti, Nusret
7 Q. Thank you.
8 A. I also recognise Ahmet Adilovic.
9 Q. Anyone else?
10 A. I'd rather not speculate. I may know some other, but I can't see
11 them too clearly.
12 Q. Thank you. You're quite right. Could you now look at page 3 of
13 this document.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document be
15 given an exhibit number -- this photograph?
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: This photograph at page --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I beg your pardon. This photograph is admitted
19 into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.
20 I see the markings are off. Has it been -
21 THE REGISTRAR: No.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see the markings are off now.
23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could the witness please mark them again.
25 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. That photograph is admitted
2 into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the photograph becomes Exhibit
4 number 1391.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
6 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we remove this photograph now,
8 and I'd like the witness to look at page 3 of this document.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I hope that photograph has been saved. It has.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Witness, I'm going to ask you whether you recognise anyone on
12 this photograph.
13 A. Yes, I do. I do. I recognise many, though the photograph is not
14 a good one. This was taken at Mehurici in the premise that we used at
15 are camp in Poljanice.
16 Q. Can you point out some persons that you recognise, not
17 necessarily all of them.
18 A. I start with Sheik Enver Saban; on his right, Ahmet Masri who was
19 commander of the camp at Mehurici at that time; to Sheik Enver's left is
20 Habab Masri; next to him, Abu Mustafa Palestini; below, to the right,
21 Aiman Awad.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that will be
24 enough. Can this document be given an exhibit number.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
1 please be given an exhibit number.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become Exhibit
3 number 1392.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
5 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 Q. Witness, I also wish to remind you of another part of your
8 testimony. That is paragraph 104 of your statement which has been
9 admitted into evidence as Exhibit 826. You said Arabs from Saudi Arabia
10 didn't like having an Algerian as a commander of the El Mujahedin
12 Do you remember saying that?
13 A. Yes, I do. I think that I also said that they didn't like the
14 Egyptian surroundings -- members; because, in addition to the Algerian,
15 the other leaders of the detachment were Egyptians.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 On the 15th of November 2007, when you were asked about the
18 disagreements within the detachment, you said that you weren't sure about
19 the date, but that you think this happened towards the end of 1994.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm referring to page
21 5634 of the transcript.
22 Q. And, in this connection, I wish to show you a document.
23 First of all, do you remember saying this, what I've just read
25 A. Yes, I do remember. So, at the end of 1994 and the beginning of
1 1995, that was the period of time when Sheik Enver was absent from
2 Bosnia - I think I said something to that effect - and that is that
3 critical period of time.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we see document D1108.
6 Let me just add, Your Honours, that this document is also in
7 Arabic in the original, and the document consists of three language
8 version. So can we see the English and Bosnian versions on the screen,
10 Q. I wish to draw your attention to the fact that it says here: "My
11 dear Sheik, I am writing to you to clarify some events that have happened
12 for you to be fully brought up to date on the matter."
13 So will you please read the text on this page.
14 A. Anything more?
15 Q. We'll look at page 2 just for a moment, but I wish to ask you
16 something about this page first.
17 Would you agree with me that the sender of this letter is
18 reporting in detail about his activities, the person he is addressing as
19 "my dear Sheik"?
20 A. Yes, I think so. He is reporting about certain events within the
21 El Mujahedin Detachment.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] May we now go on to the next page,
25 Q. Will you please read it, once again.
1 Witness, would you agree with me that this period of
2 misunderstandings that is described in the letter corresponds to the
3 period of time that you described as being a period of disagreements in
4 the El Mujahedin Detachment?
5 A. This is dated the 25th of December, 1994, and that is the time of
6 problems in the detachment. Sheik Enver was not present at that time,
7 and this letter may have been addressed to him, I believe.
8 Q. Would you agree that this person is saying that he doesn't trust
9 anyone except Sheik Enver?
10 A. The question is actually quoting Ebu Huzejfa el-Tunisi. It is
11 not his words.
12 Q. So, any way, this Ebu Huzejfa el-Tunisi, do you know who he is?
13 A. Yes. He was in the detachment, and there was some problem.
14 Sheik Enver had promised him something, then Abu Maali didn't carry it
15 out in his absence, then some problems arose. I don't know the details,
16 but I am aware of this.
17 Q. In any event, is it true that Ebu Huzejfa el-Tunisi, according to
18 this document, recognises only the authority of Sheik Saban? Is that
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Is that the situation as it was in general in the detachment?
22 Was that the general attitude?
23 A. Yes, in principle, that was so.
24 Q. Very well.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now let's go back to the first
1 page of the document for a moment, please.
2 Q. You have read the document, so I'm going to ask you just to look
3 at the point 2. There is mention of Umejma and Ibad. Are they persons
4 you were familiar with?
5 A. Yes, I did know them, and I also knew Ebu Hasan el Jasari and Ebu
7 Q. Who were those persons?
8 A. Madez was a military commander or the assistant commander for
9 military matters in the El Mujahedin Detachment; and Madil Masri was
10 responsible for the communication centre of the El Mujahedin Detachment
11 and commander of the communications section.
12 Q. Thank you. I just wish you to look at paragraph 4 for a moment
13 and see whether you can assist us with a detail that is described here in
14 the second half of this paragraph. Paragraph 4 describes the arrival of
15 a new Algerian, and the last three sentences I'm going to read to you.
16 It says: "If it is confirmed that he is clean, this Algerian,
17 after checking out on your side, he can be very useful with Allah's
18 assistance. Will you please inform me in person about the results and
19 not Abu Maali to avoid an awkward situation with him."
20 My suggestion to you would be the following: The security checks
21 of certain members of the detachment were carried out outside Bosnia and
22 Herzegovina, one would say, judging by this document.
23 Would you agree with that?
24 A. Security checks were, for the most part, carried out while Sheik
25 Enver had a great many acquaintances throughout the world, and there many
1 Arabs who were claiming to be -- have good military experience and so on
2 and so forth. So it was Sheik Enver Saban who carried out most of these
3 security checks.
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document be
5 admitted into evidence.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
7 please be given an exhibit number.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become Exhibit
9 number 1393.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness now be shown
12 document 1109.
13 For the record, this is a fax message sent to the Islamic
14 Cultural Institute in Milan dated 7th of March, 1995. The original of
15 the document is in Arabic.
16 Can we please be shown the Bosnian and English versions. Thank
18 Q. Witness look at the first sentence of the second paragraph. Let
19 me quote. The author of the letter says: "Recently, much has been said
20 about the El Mujahedin Detachment in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and there are
21 many dilemmas regarding it. We thought it our duty to clear up each of
22 these dilemmas."
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now turn to the next page of
24 the document. The document is rather lengthy.
25 Q. And in order that we do not read most of it, let me say that it
1 states certain doubts or suspicions that emerge with regard to the
2 detachment and the document serves to explain them.
3 The next page describes these suspicions that the detachment is
4 follow ago line of a group in its Jihad politics, of a group either in
5 the country or abroad, and that it is a lie.
6 I want you to look at some of the names mentioned in the
7 document. Do they mean anything to you?
8 For instance, under "firstly," the person engaged in the
9 missionary activity in the detachment building in Zenica is brother Ubet
10 el Dzenubi from Saudi Arabia. At the end of the same paragraph, brother
11 Ebu Abdullah el Hamidi is mentioned who is a student of Sheik Ebu
13 That is what the document says. Do these names mean anything to
15 A. I can clarify the entire matter. I don't think it is clear
16 enough, as it is, for you to understand what it is all about.
17 Where this problem is mentioned of the El Mujahedin Detachment
18 following a line of a group, that was precisely the accusation levelled
19 from some of the Mujahids from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and mostly from the
20 Gulf countries, who accused the detachment to be following the line of
21 Jama al Islija -- Jama al Islamija, and that they weren't controlling the
22 conduct and the activities of the El Mujahedin Detachment.
23 I recall that Abu Maali wrote a letter of a similar kind - I
24 don't know if it is the same letter - where he explained the situation in
25 the detachment and set out the evidence to the contrary. That's why many
1 names of persons from Saudi Arabia are mentioned of individuals who had
2 certain roles to play in the El Mujahedin Detachment. That's why I know
3 all these names: el Dzenubi, el Hamidi, and so on and so forth.
4 Q. Were all of these individuals members of the El Mujahedin
6 A. Yes. All of them were members of the El Mujahedin Detachment.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's turn to the last page of
9 Q. Can you see that the third doubt is described, and I will get
10 back to this later.
11 You said, a moment ago, that you remembered Abu Maali writing
12 such -- one such report. Let's look at the end of the document, which
13 says: "This report was written and signed by," and then you have five
14 names: Ebu Ejub El Semrani, Ebu Muaz el Kuvejti, Ebu Mensur el Kasimi,
15 Ebu Hemam el Nedzasi, Ebu Esid el Medemi --
16 A. Ebu Hused Medemi.
17 Q. Can you tell us who these persons are, if you know them?
18 A. Yes, I know them. They were members of the detachment who hailed
19 from Saudi Arabia, with the exception of Abu Muasa who was a Kuwaiti.
20 They performed some responsible duties in the detachment.
21 Ejub El Semrani, he was one of the students of --
22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the name.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- who ran some religious training
24 in the detachment; then Ebu Muaz el Kuvejti, who was the emir of the
25 command for the Arabs. He was the commander for the Arabs.
1 Q. Pause there. Can you repeat the names once more?
2 A. Ebu Ejub el Shemrani; then El Muaz el Kuvejti; Ebu Mensur el
3 Kasimi, who was also engaged in the religious training; Ebu Hemam el
4 Nedzasi who later on, when Ebu Muaz died, was killed together with Ebu
5 Hemam el Nedzasi, took over the office for Arabs. Both of them were
6 killed, together with Sheik Enver, in an ambush.
7 Then Ebu Hused Medemi, I don't think he held any responsible
8 posts. I believe that he signed the report as a Saudi to lend
9 credibility to it, so that it would not only be the work of Egyptians and
11 Q. It says here that the report was certified by the emir of the
12 El Mujahedin Detachment, Abu Maali. You said, a moment ago, that you
13 knew that Abu Maali had written a response to some accusations levelled
14 at the detachment. Can you tell us who Abu Maali wrote to in response to
15 these accusations, if you know?
16 A. This report was primarily intended for the donors of the
17 detachment in the Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and other Gulf countries, since,
18 at that time, there was an impasse in the donations to the detachment,
19 because the Egyptian Eslimir was believed to have been controlling the
20 detachment and because there were among the detachment members some of
21 those who were former JNA officers. As a result, the sponsors were
22 dubious as to whether they should continue funding the detachment.
23 Q. Can you please repeat the last part of your answer, because you
24 stated your answer quite clearly and the transcript does not reflect
1 Can you please repeat your answer but slowly and clearly.
2 A. You asked me who this report was sent to. The report was sent to
3 those who financed the El Mujahedin Detachment, primarily those in Saudi
4 Arabia, and also in Kuwait, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates, and other
5 countries where individuals who financed the detachment were.
6 Q. Then you spoke of two accusations. Can you repeat that part of
7 your answer relating to two accusations?
8 A. Of course. At the time, the funds stopped arriving to the
9 El Mujahedin Detachment because some speculations and suspicions emerged
10 that Jima Eslimir from Egypt was controlling the detachment, and that the
11 detachment was under the control of the Bosnian army which contained many
12 elements of the former JNA troops who were of pro-Communist orientation
13 and so on.
14 A phone call was made by Abu Maali and Sheiks --
15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the name.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And an audio-recording was made of
17 the conversation and was played to the Arab members of the El Mujahedin
18 Detachment, so that they knew clearly what this individual had to say
19 about their conduct.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Can we clarify this a bit. You said that members of the
22 detachment, some of whom were members of the command, including Abu
23 Maali, justified themselves in relation to the accusations looked at they
25 Look at this, it says here, "third doubt," which is something you
1 mentioned just now, and that there was suspicion that the Bosnian army
2 controlled the El Mujahedin Detachment.
3 Can you read the portion relating to this third doubt, that the
4 El Mujahed was controlled by the Bosnian army and about some Communist
5 elements present in the Bosnian army.
6 Can you read this to yourself, and then I will have a question
7 for you.
8 A. I've read it.
9 Q. Can you please comment upon this. It is stated here: "When the
10 detachment was set up and acknowledged by the Bosnian army, the
11 acknowledgment did not mean that they accepted them, and the evidence in
12 favour of that is that the detachment refused many operations that the
13 Bosnian army command tried to impose on them because they were
15 This was the response from the military command of the detachment
16 and the military council?
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise. If this
7 last sentence can be redacted from the transcript, please, as it might
8 reveal the identity of the witness.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the sentence, I guess Madam Vidovic is
10 referring to, page 55, lines 2 to 7. I beg your pardon. Yes, lines 2 to
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Let me just ask you whether the military council could be the
15 A. I doubt that they would confuse terms in that way. A military
16 council or military command is one and the same institution. There
17 weren't two such institutions dealing with those matters in the
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't know, Your Honour, whether
20 it is the appropriate time for the break. I will be coming back to this
21 document after the break.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take a break and come back at half past
24 Court adjourned.
25 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 12.28 p.m.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have, once again, the last
4 page of the Bosnian version of this document on the screen, please.
5 Thank you.
6 Q. Let me now quote a sentence from this document. We stopped when
7 we were talking about doubts that the detachment was being controlled by
8 the Bosnian army.
9 It is stated that: "Therefore, the detachment did carry out
10 orders of the army without any right to response. It would carry out
11 these operations and the Allah knows best."
12 Have you found this passage? I wish to ask you the following:
13 How can you explain this right to response?
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise to the
15 witness. I'm quoting a part of the document. In the transcript, we have
16 quote the opposite from what I'm saying.
17 Let me repeat the question.
18 Q. I said that it says in the document, that the detachment carried
19 out the army's orders without having the right of reply --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... that's not
21 what the document says.
22 The document says: "Therefore, had the detachment carried out
23 the army's orders without having the right to reply, then it would have
24 carried out these operations, and Allah knows best."
25 You got to put the word "had" at the beginning of the sentence;
1 otherwise, you're giving it a completely different meaning.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in any event, I'm
3 reading from the Bosnian version. The text was translated from Arabic
4 into Bosnian, and then from Bosnian into English.
5 In any event, the witness has this part of the document in front
6 of him, and I will ask the witness -- I don't know how the translating
7 service did this. I must apologise. I hope you're aware of the
8 situation, that we waited for the translations until the very last
9 moment, and that, so as not to delay this testimony, I was not unable to
10 compare the Bosnian and the English versions.
11 But I will ask the witness to read out this part of the document
12 and to explain it.
13 Q. Will you please explain what -- what is said in the document
14 actually means? Could you read out the Bosnian version and tell us how
15 you understand it.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my assistant is
17 telling me that the problem is in the interpretation, that what I am say
18 something being misinterpreted, for your information.
19 Q. Could you, Witness, read out and tell us how you understand this
20 part of the document? What is your understanding of this part of the
22 A. This is quite clear to me. This cannot mean anything else but
23 that the detachment was not under the control of the army because, had it
24 been, it would have to carry out all orders regarding combat activities.
25 Q. Thank you. What is stated here in this document, does it reflect
1 the reality with respect to control over the El Mujahedin Detachment?
2 A. Yes. It does reflect the gist of the relationship with the corps
3 command, the army command; and I think that I spoke about that already in
4 my previous testimony.
5 Q. I also wish to remind you that, on page 5703 of the transcript of
6 the 16th of November, 2007, I put it to you with regard to the orders
7 coming from the 3rd Corps and the orders whereby the 3rd Corps tried to
8 include the detachment within the corps structure. I suggested it to you
9 that these were just papers, pieces of paper, and that the detachment
10 never accepted such orders, nor to resubordinate.
11 Your answer was: "That is correct."
12 In connection with this document, I wish to ask you: This
13 letter, which is said to be signed and certified by the detachment
14 command, would you agree that it reflects these very facts that you
15 testified about, that the detachment, in fact, would not accept nor carry
16 out orders of the army units in Bosnia and Herzegovina, or rather, of the
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you understood me correctly.
2 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] What difference is there between
3 the Shura --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Shura --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we redact page 58, lines 18 to 25, please.
6 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I apologise to the witness for
7 this mistake.
8 In terms of competencies, what difference is there, in relation
9 to the activities of the detachment, between the Sharia and the military
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Judge.
12 Before the witness answers, we've got a problem in the English
13 translation. There are two people translating at the same time.
14 Okay. You may answer the question, sir.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Shura is the supreme control
16 body of the El Mujahedin Detachment. The Shura elected the emir of the
17 detachment, determined the policy and strategy of the detachment. The
18 military council or the military command dealt exclusively with military
19 matters; that is, planning and execution of military operations,
20 preparation for military operations, concerning itself with military
21 logistics, training, and the like.
22 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Another small question still in
23 connection with this document and relating to the fact that the
24 detachment was entitled to respond.
25 Does this mean that it also had the right to refuse to obey the
1 orders, or did this mean that they confronted their superiors when such
2 orders were given?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The El Mujahedin Detachment, on a
4 number of occasions, refused to take part in operations that were
5 required of it by the superior command.
6 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
8 please be given an exhibit number.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, document D 1109 will become Exhibit
10 number 1394.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
12 Madam Vidovic.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. While testifying, you answered many questions relating to
15 logistics in the detachment. On 15 November 2007, on page 5644 of the
16 transcript, you said: "Throughout the time I was in the detachment, the
17 detachment resolved logistic matters on its own, purchasing resources.
18 It did not have the assistance of the army, nor was it issued by the
20 Will you please look at a document, 1201. It's a lengthy
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like the witness to have a
23 look at this exhibit once again, and I wish the witness to see page 9 of
24 the English version and attachment D001-1289 of the Bosnian version.
25 So page 9 of the English version; and D001-1289 of the Bosnian
1 version. For the record, this is a message sent on the 27th of February,
2 1995 to the Sheik, His Excellency Anwar Saban.
3 Q. Witness, this is a short document. Will you please read it, and
4 then I will put my question to you.
5 A. I have read it.
6 Q. Thank you. I want to ask you the following, where the document
7 says that: "We have opened an office of the battalion in Kuwait, which
8 is based in my house. Thanks be to God, we have collected around
9 18.000 DM in just one day. We will send you monthly aid for the
10 battalion. We will also publish news from Bosnia and from the battalion
11 that you will send us by fax," and a signature is Abu Othman Al Kuwait.
12 My question is: Have you heard of this person?
13 A. Yes, I know him personally, Abu Othman Al Kuwaiti, and his name
14 figures on the previous document that you showed us with a list of some
15 15 names.
16 Q. Judging by the document, the detachment seemed to have had an
17 office in Kuwait, which collected monthly funds. Is that true, to the
18 best of your knowledge?
19 A. Yes. I know that Abu Othman was the connection with Kuwait, and
20 he collect the funds there for the El Mujahedin Detachment.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this document is
23 already an exhibit so we can remove it, and I have no further questions
24 for this witness, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
1 Mr. Mundis.
2 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Further re-examination by Mr. Mundis:
4 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
5 A. Good afternoon.
6 Q. Welcome back to the Tribunal.
7 Before we start, I have just a couple of preliminary type of
8 questions for you.
9 Since the time, sir, that you left the Tribunal last
10 November until coming back here presumably yesterday or the day before,
11 did you have any contact with any members of the Office of the
13 A. No, no, I did not.
14 Q. And, sir, during that same time-period from when you left last
15 November until returning in mid-April, did you have any contact with any
16 members of the Defence team in this case?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. Can you perhaps explain what you mean by this contact or your
19 last answer?
20 A. I had contact with Mr. Remzija Siljak. I believe that he is an
21 investigator for the Defence. He asked me if I could help them to get in
22 touch with a witness who might testify about the reports that were sent
23 from the detachment abroad, to the countries abroad.
24 I had said to him that Abu el Masri would have been the best
25 witness who was the personal secretary of Sheik Enver; however, he could
1 not be reached because he was in Egypt and not Bosnia. That was the
2 extent of it.
3 Q. Do you recall approximately when you had this discussion with
4 Mr. Siljak?
5 A. Some 15 to 20 days ago.
6 Q. And at that point in time, sir, did Mr. Siljak or anyone else
7 show you the documents that you have looked at this morning in court?
8 A. I only saw one of the documents, one of these documents.
9 Q. Do you remember which one?
10 A. Yes, I do. I don't know the number that it bears now, but the
11 one entitled, "My dear Sheik," and which speaks of some problems listed
12 in ten points.
13 Q. And other than this document then, sir, that's the only document
14 Mr. Siljak showed to you, some 15 to 20 days ago?
15 A. Yes. That was the only document.
16 Q. And where were you, sir, when you were shown this document by
17 Mr. Siljak some 15 to 20 days ago?
18 A. We met in Sarajevo.
19 Q. And can you recall, sir, approximately how long you were with
20 Mr. Siljak on this occasion?
21 A. Perhaps half an hour.
22 Q. Let me return to a general topic that was discussed earlier today
23 in your testimony.
24 You mentioned earlier - and I believe this is it on page 18 of
25 the transcript - at the first time when you were shown some of these
1 documents that were sent abroad, you identified these documents as being
2 the bulletins of the El Mujahedin Detachment. Is that correct?
3 A. Yes, that's right.
4 Q. And I believe, if I'm not mistaken, you told us that this
5 bulletin, the title of this document or documents was: "Call to Jihad"?
6 A. In the Bosnian, "Zov Dzihada."
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which means, Interpreter?
8 THE INTERPRETER: "The Call of the Jihad."
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
10 MR. MUNDIS:
11 Q. Do you know, sir, this bulletin, Call to Jihad or Call to the
12 Jihad, can you tell us, was this a regularly published bulletin?
13 A. Yes. It was a regular report sent abroad. Later on, it was
14 planned to be published as a magazine in the Bosnian language. I think
15 that one issue of the magazine was even published toward the end of the
17 Q. And this Call to Jihad bulletin or magazine, how frequently was
18 it compiled and put together and distributed?
19 A. Approximately - I don't know for a fact, as Abu Haris was in
20 charge of that, as well as some other members of the press centre of the
21 detachment - I believe that the bulletin was made once monthly, with the
22 exception of the situation when the detachment was engaged in operations
23 and when there were intense combat activities ongoing. In such
24 situations, some of the centres received the bulletins on a daily basis.
25 Q. Now, sir, in response to that --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry. I'm a bit confused by that answer. We
2 are told that this bulletin was a monthly bulletin; and in situations
3 when there was activities, combat activities, it was done on a daily
5 Is that what you said, sir?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not a bulletin as such, reports
7 were sent almost daily to centres.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
9 MR. MUNDIS:
10 Q. Now, sir, in response to my last question, you said Abu Haris was
11 in charge of that, as well as some other members of the press centre of
12 the detachment.
13 These bulletins, or this Call to the Jihad publication, what role
14 did the press centre of the detachment play with respect to the
15 production of these publications?
16 A. Can you clarify your question? I'm not sure I understand it
18 Q. Well, I asked you how frequently the Jihad bulletin or magazine
19 was published.
20 And on page 64, lines 17 through 19, you answered:
21 "Approximately - I don't know for a fact, as Abu Haris was in charge of
22 that as well as some other members of the press centre of the
23 detachment - ..."
24 And my question is: What role the press centre of the detachment
25 played in producing the Call to the Jihad bulletin or magazine?
1 A. This was a sort of editorial board, and we could say that Abu
2 Haris was its editor in chief. There was Nedim Haracic, and Muris
3 Lubancic even worked in the office for a while. They gathered
4 information, produced reports, and then those that were compiled in the
5 Bosnian would be translated into Arabic and sent abroad.
6 Q. So I take it then, sir, from your answer, that these Arabic
7 language bulletins or reports that we've seen today were produced by the
8 press centre, in terms of a public relations aspect, to be sent abroad?
9 A. Yes, one could put it that way.
10 Q. Can you tell us, sir, why - and I know you have touched on this a
11 little, but I would like to you elaborate on that - can you tell us why
12 it was important for the detachment to produce these bulletins, this Call
13 to the Jihad, and to send those outside of Bosnia and Herzegovina during
14 the war?
15 A. It was important that the reports be sent because the friends of
16 the detachment who were supporting the detachment wanted to be kept
17 abreast of what was going on in the detachment. I think it is only a
18 natural thing.
19 Q. And when you say, sir, "the friends of the detachment who were
20 supporting the detachment," that would include funding sources?
21 A. Primarily, the funding sources.
22 Q. Do you know, sir, if this Call to the Jihad bulletin had any
23 effect in terms of recruiting for the detachment?
24 A. Presumably. I can't be certain about it. The recipients of the
25 reports from the detachment passed the information on, and conducted some
1 sort of propaganda, as it were, for the detachment. Quite a few
2 individuals joined the detachment. Whether that was the result of among
3 other things the bulletin, too, I cannot state that with any certainty.
4 Q. And, sir, when you say "the recipients of the reports from the
5 detachment passed the information on and conducted some sort of
6 propaganda, as it were, for the detachment," what do you mean by that?
7 How was that information passed on?
8 A. Let me give you an illustration which will give you a clear idea
9 of how this worked.
10 For instance, in Saudi Arabia, there was Abu Mauz who was in
11 charge of raising funds and who received the reports from the
12 El Mujahedin Detachment. He used that information to visit Sheiks ànd
13 rich men, potential donors. He also brought along the video recordings
14 that we made in the detachment. It was also distributed; and as a result
15 of that, donations and funds flowed in. That was the immediate result.
16 Q. Do you know, sir, if the information that was passed on from the
17 Call to Jihad bulletin or publication was spread by way of word of mouth
18 in mosques outside of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
19 A. I don't know about that.
20 Q. Sir, can you tell us, these funds that were being received from
21 outside, what was being done with this money or these funds?
22 A. The funds were used for purchasing ammunition, weapons, food,
23 clothes, equipment, whatever the El Mujahedin Detachment needed,
24 communications devices, vehicles, and so on.
25 Q. I take it from your answer that all of these items that you have
1 listed were being used in order to advance the war aims.
2 A. Largely, to a great extent. There were some humanitarian
3 activities, too; but for the most part, the purpose was to advance the
4 war aims.
5 Q. I take, sir, from your previous answer with respect to the
6 document that was shown to you that expressed a number of doubts, that it
7 was important for the outside funding sources to know that the detachment
8 did not consider itself part of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
9 Would you agree with that?
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection. Mr. Mundis
12 has forgotten that he is not in the position to cross-examine the
13 witness. This is it his witness, and this is re-examination and not
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.
16 MR. MUNDIS: I'll perhaps move on from that subject and maybe
17 return to it later. I will withdraw the question.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
19 MR. MUNDIS:
20 Q. Sir, during the course of the period in time when you were a
21 member of the El Mujahedin Detachment, do you know how many issues or
22 bulletins or Call to the Jihad were sent abroad during that time-period?
23 A. I can't talk in terms of numbers. I don't know exactly. I told
24 you roughly that the bulletin was issued once monthly, and that reports
25 were sent out more often at the time when the detachment was engaged in
1 operations. Throughout my time as a member of the detachment, the --
2 this was not the case because this was the practice that was introduced
3 in mid-1994.
4 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, I'd ask that the witness be shown the
5 document marked 65 ter P02025.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before that, let us
8 clarify one matter.
9 My understanding was that the Trial Chamber restricted the
10 cross-examination to the new documents and the so-called Italian
11 collection only. It was not my understanding that we would be going back
12 to the documents that were either shown to the witness or could have been
13 shown to the witness, because they were in the possession of the OTP
14 earlier on.
15 Let me state this in advance. I will be opposing the attempt to
16 go beyond the scope of the cross-examination, since I understood it that
17 my cross-examination was to be restricted to the new documents only. I
18 believe that this should apply to the Prosecutor, too.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis
20 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, before I respond, I would respectfully
21 that the witness be escorted out of the courtroom, so as not to
22 potentially prejudice anything that might happen from this point forward.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please be excused for some
25 [The witness stands down]
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Something is said that is mentioned on the
2 transcript that I said, and I don't remember ever saying this, "motor
3 vehicle accident," at page 69, line 15. Thank you.
4 Yes, Mr. Mundis.
5 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, the Prosecution certainly did not
6 interpret the Trial Chamber decision allowing the Defence to recall the
7 witness to be limited exclusively to newly disclosed material. I don't,
8 with all due respect to my learned colleagues from the Defence, I don't
9 think that is actually the issue here. The issue that has been presented
10 by the further cross-examination of this witness goes to the broader
11 issue of these bulletins and their transmission outside of the Republic
12 of Bosnia and Herzegovina for purposes which my learned colleagues I'm
13 sure, will be arguing vigorously during closing arguments in this case.
14 It is the Prosecution position that, having opened the door and
15 shown the witness a number of these bulletins, that the Prosecution
16 should be allowed to show these bulletins or some of these similar
17 bulletin-type documents to the witness, so that the Trial Chamber has a
18 broader understanding of some of the information that was contained in
19 these bulletins that went outside of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
20 These are not -- the ones we're proposing to show, I will put
21 very clear on the record, are not newly discovered or newly disclosed
22 material. They were on the Prosecution original 65 ter list. But it is
23 it our position that, having opened the door to this issue, the
24 Prosecution is entitled to put similar documents, and we have five of
25 them on the exhibit list disclosed to the witness before witness appeared
1 this morning.
2 We have five such documents on the original 65 ter list that we
3 are proposing to show to the witness for the simple reason that the
4 Defence have now opened the door to this issue, and we believe it is
5 important for the Chamber to have a broader view as to what's contained
6 in these documents.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, can I ask that when your learned
8 friend is responding to what you said to keep seated until he has
9 finished; then when he sits down, I will call you.
10 MR. MUNDIS: That's actually all, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I understood my colleague
13 Mr. Mundis to have finished his submission.
14 Your Honour, the practice, the case law when it comes to
15 re-examination before this Tribunal has been established beyond any
16 doubt. In all of the cases I am aware of before this Tribunal - and I am
17 referring to the Oric case primarily - all the cases allowed additional
18 cross-examination in such situations as involve a party to the proceeding
19 that did not have occasion to present some documents to a witness.
20 Now, today the Prosecutor claims, without any compunction in
21 relation to the entire case before us and in relation to the prejudice
22 plead to the Defence with their actions, claims that the Defence has
23 opened the door to these questions to be put by the Prosecutor through
24 the very fact that the Defence showed these documents to the witness.
25 Your Honours, this is a terrible, terrible, terrible omission on
1 the part of the Prosecutor who kept some documents in a drawer for three
2 years. Not only did they keep these documents in their drawer, they had
3 the obligation to show the documents to the witness when he testified
4 earlier on, and I'm referring to the documents that I showed the witness
6 All these documents that are listed here could have been shown to
7 the witness by the Prosecutor. The Prosecutor did not do that.
8 Therefore, it is not the Defence who opened the door to that line of
9 questioning; rather, the Defence was brought into such a position that it
10 had to put these questions only today.
11 It was through the fault of the Prosecution that we came into the
12 situation where I had to show the witness these documents because the
13 Prosecutor did not show them; and, therefore, this cannot be the basis
14 for his argument that I opened any doors.
15 Your Honours, I appeal to you to honour the case law of the
16 Tribunal and to restrict the examination to the documents that I use in
17 my cross-examination only. The Prosecutor definitely had an opportunity
18 to show both these -- this set of documents and the other documents to
19 the witness earlier on.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it possible for the Chamber to be shown the
21 order that re-called the witness.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, the order does not restrict the
25 re-examination. It says that the motion is granted. It allows the
1 Defence to recall Witness PW-9 for the purpose of further
2 cross-examination on the 17th and 18th of April, 2008 and the Prosecution
3 to re-examine the witness on matters arising out of the Defence's further
4 cross-examination. Instruct the Registry's Victim and Witness Section to
5 arrange the appearance of Witness PW-9 before the Trial Chamber on those
6 dates. Prohibits the Prosecution and the Defence to communicate with the
7 Witness PW-9 before his testimony.
8 That's what the order says.
9 Your objection would then perhaps be -- well, I know that you
10 have asked this Court to follow the jurisprudence of the Tribunal, but
11 you have referred us to only the Oric case as the one that you say has
12 dealt with this matter. I'm not quite sure whether you are saying we
13 should follow the Oric case. The Chamber is, however, mindful, of the
14 the appeal, the decision on the interloctory appeal that was filed by the
15 Defence a couple of days ago, and maybe we can take guidance from that.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may say the
17 following briefly before that.
18 Your Honour, from the introduction to this document, which refers
19 to the Defence submissions, it is quite clear that we asked for
20 additional examination regarding facts from the new documents, and that
21 is why we were granted this. The Chamber rendered a decision along those
22 lines, Your Honour, because certainly I could have asked this witness
23 many other things.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis, the document that you were about to
25 show the witness, P02025, is it one of the documents that have just
1 recently come up, or is it a document that you have always had.
2 MR. MUNDIS: No. As I said before, Mr. President, it is a
3 document that was originally on the Prosecution 65 ter list. It's always
4 been on there. The issue here, as I also said earlier, in our respectful
5 submission, does not relate to the matter of the late disclosure or the
6 exculpatory material that was disclosed at a later point in time. The
7 issue simple is may I conduct further examination on an issue that arose
8 in the course of the cross-examination. The issue in the
9 cross-examination extensively a number of documents and issues put to the
10 witness concerning documents in the Arabic language that you were sent
11 outside of the Bosnia and Herzegovina.
12 It's that issue, and the contents of information that was being
13 sent outside Bosnia and Herzegovina that I would like to re-examine the
14 witness on.
15 So, in our respectful view, it is a simple matter that is clearly
16 within the discretion of the Trial Chamber. The issue goes to whether
17 we, the Prosecution, can put questions to the witness that relates to the
18 types of documents that were sent outside of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and
19 the contents of the information in those documents that was being sent
20 outside Bosnia and Herzegovina. That has been a large focus of the
21 Defence cross-examination showing Arabic language documents that were
22 sent outside of Bosnia.
23 I have five additional documents that were sent outside of Bosnia
24 and Herzegovina. I'd like to put those to the witness and see if those
25 are the same types of documents he was talking about earlier. That is
1 the entire issue here, is whether I can re-examine on issue that's arose
2 in the further cross-examination of this witness and which were
3 manifested through the documents that the Defence showed to the witness.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think the order is quite clear on that last
5 point, that the Prosecution to re-examine the witness on matters arising
6 out of the Defence matter.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I believe that the main issue
9 here is to know what prejudice that could occasion to the Defence if the
10 Trial Chamber were to allow the use of a document which, in the words of
11 the Prosecutor, is of the same nature as the documents submitted to the
12 witness during cross-examination today.
13 Could I have an opinion from the Defence on this point?
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is it true that
15 these were documents that were on the 65 ter list, but it is it also true
16 that on that list there were several thousand documents which you will
18 This type of document, in particular, where the original is in
19 Arabic, and we received this morning information - I think it was this
20 morning - that we were informed that these documents would be used. It
21 will certainly be prejudicial because the Defence did not expect other
22 documents to be discussed here, other than those that were in the new
24 Had we known that, we would have prepared ourselves. We would
25 have checked many things relating to those documents, and we certainly
1 would have had a chance to ask more detailed questions of the witness,
2 because many aspects of these documents arise which we haven't reviewed.
3 We were not able to review them since the moment we were informed that
4 they would be used.
5 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Just an observation. Your
6 argument is slightly different. You're talking about information, about
7 the late information, the late disclosure. It's not the first argument
8 you put forward before.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was answering your
10 question regarding the prejudice that may fall upon the Defence. I
11 didn't have in mind my previous arguments.
12 In any event, I abide by the initial argument I gave, because I
13 believe that the Prosecutor should have remained within the framework of
14 documents which, due to his error, were not used earlier on. Those he
15 wishes to use today, he could have used with the witness during his
16 previous testimony.
17 MR. MUNDIS: If I may, because there may be some slight
18 confusion, at least based on what I heard Madam Vidovic say in the
19 English language.
20 The issue concerning the five documents that are on the list that
21 were provided to the Defence this morning at 7.47, there is no issue
22 concerning late disclosure of these documents. They were on the 65 ter
23 list. The Defence have had these documents for at least 18 months, if
24 not longer. So it is not an issue of late disclosure of this material.
25 I really regret a situation where arguments are framed in terms
1 of the Prosecution could have done this or the Prosecution could have
2 done that. Similar arguments could be levelled from this side of the
3 courtroom the other direction. I'm not going to do that.
4 I think, as I have said before, the issue is very clear. The
5 issue goes to whether I can cross-examine the witness on the matters
6 arising from the re-examination --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Re-examination.
8 MR. MUNDIS: Sorry. Re-examination the witness on the issues
9 arising from the further cross-examination.
10 If it is an issue that fairness dictates that Madam Vidovic
11 should be allowed to put further questions after I conduct further -- or
12 further examination, re-examination, so it be. We have all day tomorrow
13 for additional questions to be put to the witness concerning the five
14 documents I'm proposing to show to him.
15 So there's not an issue here with respect to prejudice of the
16 accused. They've had these documents for months and months and months
17 and months and months, and that is not the issue. The issue goes to what
18 we can further examine the witness on based upon the further
20 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I still have a little
21 observation to make as to what the Prosecutor said. It is not just a
22 question or issue of your right to re-examine the witness on issues
23 arising from cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic. That's clear. Of course,
24 you can do that. But it is the question as to whether you can use new
25 documents; that is to say, indeed, documents that were already in your 65
1 ter list.
2 The question which is here, the contentious one, is whether the
3 documents can be used.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought Madam Vidovic is addressing herself to
6 MR. MUNDIS: Judge Lattanzi, you mean, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: What did I say.
8 MR. MUNDIS: Madam Vidovic.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I beg your pardon. Judge Lattanzi.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, very briefly. What is
11 contentious is precisely what Her Honour Judge Lattanzi said. That is
12 what is contentious. Of course, the Prosecution has the right to
13 examine, but what is in dispute is the use of these particular documents,
14 which the Prosecution had in its possession and which they could have
15 shown the witness when he first testified. That's the point.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I want to ask Mr. Mundis a question.
17 Mr. Mundis, for what purpose do you want to show the witness
18 these documents?
19 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, we would be putting these documents
20 forward for the fact that they go to certain issues that are in dispute,
21 so they would be going in perhaps for the truth of the matter and/or as
22 they relate to the issue of notice.
23 I see that that might be the source of some confusion, and I can
24 explain that.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I didn't think it was part of this, and I'm trying
1 to stretch my mind without asking you to show your hand.
2 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, some, some - I don't believe I'm in a
3 position to state all by any stretch of the imagination - some of these
4 documents that were being faxed by the El Mujahedin Detachment were
5 electronically intercepted by authorities in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
6 That's the Prosecution position.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see you are standing up, Madam Vidovic. Your
8 colleague is still on his feet.
9 MR. MUNDIS: I was just waiting to see if there any further
11 Perhaps, if I could answer the question that Judge Lattanzi, I
12 believe, was putting towards me a few moments ago. Again, with all due
13 respect, I will interpret, when Judge Lattanzi say it is is a question as
14 to whether can you use new documents, I'm interpreting "new" as being
15 material that hasn't been used before in this case and not "new" in the
16 sense of anything that has been late disclosure or anything in that
18 With respect to that, Your Honours, the issue here really goes
19 back to a very basic one. The Rules of Procedure and Evidence before
20 this Tribunal allow the cross-examining party to put their case to a
21 witness during cross-examination. Sometimes, as a result of that, the
22 cross-examination goes beyond the scope of the direct examination. In
23 those types of situations, clearly you could imagine a case where the
24 party in re-examination comes back with new or additional documents that
25 weren't shown to the witness during the original direct examination.
1 This issue is exactly the same. If we take away the issue
2 concerning the late disclosure, and in a hypothetical situation let's
3 just assume it was a regular examination, cross-examination,
4 re-examination, because to be quite frank that's exactly what we're
5 talking about: The re-cross and re-examination are the result of the
6 late disclosure, but that is not the issue, in our respectful view.
7 If in a regular or routine direct examination and
8 cross-examination, the cross-examining parties brings up issues outside
9 of the direct, but which relate directly to their case and which the
10 rules specifically allow. In re-examination, the party conducting the
11 re-examination would be allowed to come in with new documents or new
12 material that wasn't on the original exhibit list for that witness,
13 because that's in response to the issues that came up on the cross.
14 It is the same here. It's the same here. The Defence have
15 raised the issue of outside reporting, if you will, transmission of
16 Arabic documents outside of Bosnia and Herzegovina during the course of
17 the cross-examination. They've made that a live issue through this
18 witness. And as a result of that, our view is that the Trial Chamber
19 should be entitled to see evidence of other similar documents that fall
20 into the same category, that relate to the same issue; that is, Arabic
21 large documents that were being sent by the detachment outside of Bosnia
22 and Herzegovina.
23 That's the issue, in our respectful view.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may, I do
25 apologise, but I think it is important for you to hear this argument.
1 Mr. Mundis is, very skillfully, trying to tell us that his
2 questions will be within the framework of the cross-examination.
3 However, it is quite clear, from what he has just said, that we were
4 referring to a new category of documents, reports and bulletins which was
5 dispatched abroad.
6 But now Mr. Mundis said that: "The purpose of using these five
7 documents or some of those documents, which I wish to use today, is the
8 question of information, the information which the army had." That did
9 not emerge from my cross-examination. That is quite another legal issue
10 from the one that I have raised here and discussed the factual aspects of
11 that issue.
12 So never for a moment did we go into the question of information
13 that the army may have had; but, rather, we were talking about reports
14 being send to another entity abroad.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think the Chamber would like to give a ruling.
17 Madam Vidovic, the Chamber is going to admit those documents and
18 is going to allow the Defence an opportunity to go through those
19 documents that were received this morning, and further examine this
20 witness at a time when the Defence is ready to do so. Okay?
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, you may proceed Mr. Mundis.
24 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. I don't know if you want
25 me to continue with the witness or if you want to break for the day at
1 this point in time.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I would have to liked to finish this witness by
3 the end of the day tomorrow. If you are saying break now and forfeit the
4 ten minutes that are remaining --
5 MR. MUNDIS: I will forfeit those ten minutes, Your Honour, in
6 the sense of bringing the witness back in and resuming. I am not even
7 sure I could get through the first anyway.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's call the witness in.
9 MR. MUNDIS: If I could, while the witness is being brought in,
10 there was one other just very minor housekeeping issue that I can deal
11 with while the witness is coming in.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: By all means.
13 MR. MUNDIS: Earlier this week, the Defence filed a motion
14 seeking to withdraw the 92 bis statement of a witness of whose name I
15 will not mention. The Prosecution is not intending to file any kind of
16 response to that motion, so that issue is ripe for the Trial Chamber's
17 decision and determination.
18 We take no position on any of the issues set forth in that motion
19 at this time.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Mundis.
21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: For purposes of the witness's entry, may we move
23 into private session.
24 [Private session]
11 Pages 8715-8716 redacted. Private session.
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.42 p.m.,
17 to be reconvened on Friday, the 18th day of April,
18 2008, at 9.00 a.m.