1 Friday, 30 January 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, sir.
7 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
8 JUDGE PARKER: May I remind you of the affirmation that you made
9 at the beginning of your evidence. It still applies.
10 Mr. Djordjevic.
11 WITNESS: VETON SURROI [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Djordjevic: [Continued]
14 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning. I'll carry on from where I left
15 off on our last sitting.
16 Now, linked to the Serbian police force that expelled students of
17 Albanian ethnicity from the university, can you tell us what came before
18 that event and why the police took those steps.
19 A. The students and the professors had gone to classes as the
20 regulations required. However, they were not allowed to do so by the
21 police, and the police gave the reasons, that they had received orders
22 not to leave them -- not to let them go into the classes.
23 What preceded this wave of interruption of Albanian language
24 classes was the introduction of violent measures, the suspension of even
25 the last remaining autonomy which had been imposed by Serbian -- I'm
1 referring here to the application of violent measures applied by Serbia
2 in July 1990.
3 Q. You mentioned the parallel system of education, and we're going
4 to ask you briefly whether you agree with me on this: That a modern
5 state, the kind that Serbia
6 authority over the province, could finance such a system within a system
7 when we're speaking about education.
8 A. It's not relevant what Serbia
9 had its own institutions. Its institutions were suspended through
10 violence, and, therefore, these institutions had to provide funding for
11 Albanian language education.
12 Q. The students, you said, destroyed the technological faculty. Do
13 you remember whether the police reacted on that occasion?
14 A. At one moment, the police intervened and got everybody out. The
15 police removed all those students who refused to leave the building.
16 Q. When we're on the subject of, if I can call it, the parallel
17 system of education, in that parallel system of education was there any
18 place for citizens of other ethnicities living in Kosovo?
19 A. There were some involved in the parallel system. I'm referring
20 here to some other citizens. There could have been, for example, Askali,
21 Roma, Turks. The education which took part in Serbian language was
22 funded by the Serbian institutions.
23 Q. Can I then conclude, and would you agree with me when I say the
24 following: That it is correct that the Albanians after 1990 did not
25 recognise the educational system of the Republic of Serbia
1 be correct?
2 A. I think that it is very clear that the introduction of the
3 education system of Serbia
4 citizens in absolute majority refused this imposition, this forceful
5 imposition, and the system which came with it.
6 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I'd now like the usher to show
7 us a document on the agreed measures to apply the agreement of the 1st of
8 September, 1996, which was signed on the 23rd of March, 1998, and on
9 e-court, I think it's D001-0011 in the Serbian version; D000-0013 in
10 English. That's not the right document. Just a moment, please.
11 The number of the document is 0001-0001. No. No, it's not the
12 one on our screens. I'll be asking for that one to be put up later on.
13 Q. Mr. Surroi, can you see this document?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Are you familiar with the document?
16 A. No.
17 Q. And in English?
18 A. I've not seen that document before. Probably I have heard about
19 it or maybe I saw it in the press.
20 Q. Would you now take a look and read out paragraph 4, since you say
21 that you're not familiar with this document.
22 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] We only have paragraphs 1 to 3
23 on our screens now, but we'd like paragraph 4, please.
24 Q. May we continue? My question is this: You heard that the
25 Institute for Albanology was opened, that it started working, and I'd
1 like to know what this institute dealt with, the Institute for
3 A. It's very easy to say or to assume what this institute deals
4 with. It deals with Albanian studies.
5 Q. How many people began working in the institute, and what
6 ethnicity were they?
7 A. I don't know the number.
8 Q. Did those people have salaries at the time?
9 A. I believe that they were paid by the parallel system.
10 Q. So that means when it came to financing, you're sure that it was
11 financed from the parallel system, you say, or do you think? Do you know
12 or do you think?
13 A. Yes, I'm sure.
14 Q. Do you know that the Republic of Serbia and before that the
15 Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia had a fund for financing the
16 underdeveloped regions?
17 A. Sir, you're talking about a period which is completely different.
18 You're speaking about a different time in Yugoslavia. The Albanological
19 Institute began to be funded by the parallel system from the moment when
20 the work of the institutions of Kosova was suspended. From that time on,
21 the work of those institutions then began to get funding from the
22 parallel system, including the Albanological system. I'm talking here
23 about the period which starts from 1990. You, on the other hand, are
24 talking about a fund for underdeveloped parts at the time when Tito was
25 in power.
1 Q. At that time in Serbia
2 think you heard me. In 1998 do you know that a fund existed in the
3 Republic of Serbia
4 A. Probably. Probably for development of a village in Serbia
5 think it would be cynical to say that there had been a fund for -- from
7 Q. Do you know that the Republic of Serbia
8 invested considerable resources into Kosovo at the time?
9 A. They could have invested those funds for the Serbian population.
10 Kosova as a country was paralysed at that time, so probably they had to
11 fund the police action or the action of other institutions to keep in
12 place this colonial regime in Kosova.
13 Q. Do you know that at that time the Republic of Serbia
14 all its international obligations linked to loans?
15 A. Yes, because Serbia
16 also carried over the loans of Kosova, the obligations that Kosova had to
17 other countries. So Serbia
18 Kosova, so probably Serbia
19 obligations -- institutions.
20 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to ask the Trial
21 Chamber to admit the document and give it a number, please.
22 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be marked D00001, Your Honours.
24 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I'd now like to ask the usher to
25 bring up the next exhibit, that is to say, the previous document that was
1 shown on our screens, and it was D0001-0011 in Serbian and D0001-0013 in
2 English. That's the document. May we have the English version, too,
4 Q. Now, Mr. Surroi, are you familiar with this document? Have you
5 ever seen it before?
6 A. I've not seen that document; however, I have heard about the
7 meeting with the EU representatives. I was informed by the EU
8 representatives about this meeting.
9 Q. Mr. Surroi, I'd now like to ask you to take a look at this
10 document and to tell me whether there are -- whether there were any
11 reactions to this document and whether any of what is set out in the
12 document was actually put into effect.
13 A. As far as I know, there was an act of goodwill by the EU to
14 assist in the process of normalisation of the educational system in
15 Kosova through the institution of educational institutions in Kosova.
16 Q. So these resources, did they come to the place where they were
17 intended to go?
18 A. I think that some work had started; however, at the time we had
19 the escalation of war.
20 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Might this exhibit
21 be given a number by the Trial Chamber, and I'd like to tender it into
23 JUDGE PARKER: It is received.
24 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D00002, Your Honours.
25 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Now, with respect to the demonstrations in Kosovo, I believe you
2 remember that in Kosovo and Metohija it was both the Serbs and other
3 ethnicities which demonstrated, and do you remember that those police
4 reacted and that those citizens who demonstrated ended up in prison?
5 A. To my knowledge, the reaction of the police was not equal. In
6 terms of returning educational buildings, there was a demonstration;
7 however, the reaction of the police did not resemble at all towards these
9 Q. Do you know that the Serb citizens were also taken to trial on
10 the basis of the public law and order regulations and also pursuant to
11 the criminal code of Serbia
12 was at the time, for taking part in the demonstrations?
13 A. To which case are you referring?
14 Q. Generally speaking.
15 A. The most severe reaction of the Serb authorities was demonstrated
16 in the demonstrations organised by Mr. Draskovic and the democratic
17 opposition in Serbia
18 one citizen was killed in Belgrade
19 tanks in the streets of Belgrade
20 I would like to remember -- remind you, however, that this was a
21 most severe demonstration and the largest of the Serbian opposition,
22 where one person lost his life. And every life is important, but in
23 Kosova, however, many more people were killed in less -- in smaller
24 demonstrations compared to that one in Belgrade.
25 Q. Of course I'm sorry about all that, too, but what I wanted to
1 hear from you is linked to the demonstrations that were held only in
2 Kosovo. So when I'm referring to that, I'm referring to the Serb
3 citizens, and you asked me about a specific case. Now, I'd like to
4 remind you that at that time in the opposition, you had members of the
5 Serbian Radical Party and Dr. Vojislav Seselj, an accused before this
6 Tribunal. Do you know that at that time he, Mr. Seselj, because of the
7 demonstrations in Gnjilane spent more than 60 days in detention and the
8 deputy of the president of the Serbian Radical Party, Tomislav Nikolic,
9 also, who at this point is the president of the Progressive Party.
10 That's the new party and that's what it's called. Do you know about any
11 of that?
12 A. I remember this event. I don't remember the days and the dates,
13 but I do remember the facts.
14 Q. Now, in relation to the refugee crisis, I'll go back to that
15 briefly, and we're talking about the period before the so-called summer
16 offensive, as you referred to it, of these police forces, but until the
17 very end it wasn't clear whether it was the Serb police forces or whether
18 the army was involved there, too, because in your testimony you used the
19 words "military action," and then you mentioned the police. But I'll
20 come back to that in due course, in just a moment.
21 Anyway, you mentioned the liberation of Obilic. When you say
22 liberation of Obilic, you mean the KLA which attacked Obilic, and you
23 said "liberate Obilic," and after that it withdrew. Now, what I'm
24 interested in is: Do you know that -- not Obilic. I meant, not Obilic,
25 Orahovac. I apologise for having misspoken.
1 Now, do you know -- well, everything that I was saying was
2 referring to Orahovac. Do you know that on that occasion, 60 Serb
3 citizens were seized, were abducted, just prior to that summer offensive?
4 A. Now, are you talking about Rahovec or Obiliq? I do not know the
5 details of the activities of one or another party, but when I spoke of
6 Rahovec, I described the created atmosphere immediately after the combat
7 activities on behalf of the Serbian forces, after Rahovec was taken by
8 the KLA, because the KLA had entered Rahovec. And with the ambassador
9 and Mr. Shala, we visited the town. We saw people who were scared, we
10 saw houses that had been burnt, and, therefore, we asked for the
11 religious leader of Rahovec, who was a well-respected person at that
12 time, and he was executed in the yard of his house.
13 Q. I'm sorry for that event, but what my question was is: Do you
14 know that during that action the KLA seized 60 Serbs? And I assume as a
15 journalist at the head of a respected paper at the time and worked as a
16 journalist, do you have that knowledge, and do you know about it or not?
17 That's my question.
18 A. I don't know the exact figure, but I know that on this occasion
19 we visited the Serbian neighbourhood in Rahovec and we spoke with the
20 Serbs about these issues that you raised.
21 Q. But what I'm asking you is: Do you know whether anybody was
22 seized? You might not know the number, but do you know that this event
23 took place, of this event?
24 A. I told you that we did hear about cases of kidnappings.
25 Q. Thank you. That makes it clearer now. Now, did you hear that
1 after that a certain number of citizens of Orahovac who were Serbs, or,
2 rather, their bodies were found in the Volujak pit, the Volujak cave?
3 A. I heard of a case when bodies were found in several places in
4 Kosova, including Voljak, after the war.
5 Excuse me. I don't know whether these people were identified or
6 not, these victims.
7 Q. Thank you. Well, then, I can't ask the next question, which was
8 to have been whether you knew that they were citizens from Orahovac. But
9 anyway, my next question now is this: It will be linked to the mistake I
10 made a moment ago when I misspoke and I spoke about the thermoelectric
11 power station of Obilic. Do you know that the KLA at one point took
12 control of the part of the installations of the thermoelectric power
13 system of Obilic and cut off the transport to the coal that was supposed
14 to be taken to the thermoelectric power plant?
15 A. I saw on the news about the KLA units in Obiliq; however, I'm not
16 familiar with their activities.
17 Q. Thank you. Have you heard on the same news bulletin that nine
18 workers of Serb ethnicity had been kidnapped on that occasion?
19 A. The problem with the news at that time was the source, and it was
20 very difficult to verify the credibility of events, such as this one in
21 Obiliq. What we were able to do at that time was to report that
22 according to the Serb media or Serb authorities or according to official
23 sources of Serb authorities, nine or eight or seven, whatever the number
24 of people, have been kidnapped.
25 Q. Did you have your own sources of information?
1 A. I would like to remind you that it was very difficult to
2 penetrate to those areas -- in those areas where the conflict was
3 ongoing, especially in those areas controlled by the Serb forces or
4 encircled by the Serb forces.
5 Q. Had not the KLA occupied that area and expelled those people?
6 A. This issue is disputed. As you know, a person can occupy a point
7 during one day and then withdraw the next. The KLA was not an army; it
8 was a guerrilla movement and was not able to capture or control part of
10 Q. Can I then conclude that you did not have your own sources of
11 information to check that event?
12 A. To tell you the truth, I didn't follow each and every combat
13 activity in Kosova.
14 Q. Let us move on to a different subject. You mentioned the law
15 banning transactions in real estate, and you said that Albanians were
16 prevented by this law from selling or buying real estate, and the purpose
17 was to prevent them from buying property from Serbs. Now, I would like
18 to ask you, was this law in effect, and was it applied throughout the
19 territory of Serbia
20 A. If I remember it correctly, and this is just for purpose of an
21 anecdote because I don't give it much relevance, at this time there was
22 an initiative by Albanian lawyers to examine the constitutional aspect of
23 this law. In Vojvodina, there was no such restriction on buying and
24 selling property between different ethnicities, which means that this law
25 was drafted specifically to prevent the buying and selling of property in
2 Q. Thank you. I'll have to ask you this, then: Do you know that
3 that particular law does not mention transactions in real estate between
4 different ethnic groups? And do you know that the Serb lawyers, too, had
5 initiated a constitutional review of that law?
6 A. Well done by the Serb lawyers. It's a good thing they did that.
7 Q. Do you know that that law did not contain provisions referring to
8 ethnic communities and transactions between different ethnic communities?
9 A. The implementation of this law meant that the Albanian who wanted
10 to buy property from a Serb in Kosova, he had to ask the Ministry of
11 Finance in Belgrade
12 with other ministries, would give the approval. I don't know if this is
13 a direct implementation of the law or something else, but this is
14 something that those who study laws and regulations should deal with.
15 And it's not relevant for our discussion here today. This was a
16 discrimination in transactions, and it was backed by law, by the law in
18 Q. I have to ask you now, are you going to agree with me that all
19 the citizens of Serbia
20 ask for that approval in Serbia
21 without such an approval, any contract on the purchase of real estate was
22 not valid?
23 A. I don't think so.
24 Q. Thank you. Let's move on to a different subject, the ethnic
25 composition of Kosovo. You are talking about roughly 1990. Do you know,
1 when was the last time when the Albanians participated in a census?
2 Which year was that?
3 A. In 1981.
4 Q. Do you know about a census in the 1990s?
5 A. There were attempts to carry out a census in 1991; however, at
6 that time, due to the circumstances, a large number of citizens refused
7 to participate in this census.
8 Q. Did not Albanians consider that to be an advantage for them,
9 being in the majority?
10 A. The statistics imposed by a country that uses force and violence
11 and that was considered by the majority of Kosovans as foreign in Kosova,
12 and this fear, general fear, of Albanians in Kosova meant that the
13 registration in 1991 could be manipulated by the Serb authorities in
14 order to create fictitious statistical data that would later be used in
15 different shapes and forms.
16 This fear built up after a campaign by the Serb media, claiming
17 that the increase of the birth-rate of the Albanians is a product of a
18 doctrine that intends to over-populate a territory.
19 Q. I could perhaps even agree with you that that was one of the
20 possible viewpoints, but I would like to move on to the part of your
21 statement where you say there were about 85 per cent ethnic Albanian
22 citizens to 95 per cent ethnic Albanians and 5 per cent Serbs. I would
23 like to know the basis for that statement and how well-founded, how sure
24 you are about this estimate, since you put it in your statement.
25 A. There's a contradiction in your question. You cannot make a
1 precise forecast because forecasting in its nature can never be precise.
2 This, what I'm talking about, is a projection on demographic growth.
3 Demographers at the time agreed on this issue, and these figures were
4 calculated on the basis of the natural norm of birth-rate since 1981.
5 And based on the mortality rate and also based on the migration rate, you
6 could come to the conclusion that sometime in 1985 the majority was
7 Albanian. In the registration -- in the census of 1991, though the
8 Albanians did not take part in the census, the Serbs took part. And
9 again, I will point out here that I'm speaking in terms of demography;
10 there was a trend of increased birth-rate but also a trend of migration
11 and movement.
12 Q. On this topic, my last question: You will agree with me that the
13 birth-rate in Kosovo, speaking of the ethnic Albanian community, for the
14 past ten
15 A. Maybe not only in the last ten years but even more. These were
16 demographic trends that other nations went through earlier. This is not
17 a specialty for the Albanians only. I would like to remind you that in
18 early twentieth century, a birth-rate of this size was evident for
20 reached the trend of the average European country.
21 Q. Thank you. I asked this because of its relevance to the period
22 only. I'll now move on to another subject. You said that in July 1990,
23 the members of the parliament of Kosovo adopted a so-called
24 constitutional declaration - when I say "members of the parliament of
25 Kosovo," I mean ethnic Albanian MPs - proclaiming Kosovo a republic
1 within the Yugoslav federation. Tell me, who were those members of the
2 assembly at that time? I would like an answer in general terms.
3 A. They were those who were elected at that time. At the time, we
4 did not have direct elections; however, in those conditions these people
5 were elected as members of parliament, who represented Kosova, as it was
6 at that time.
7 Q. Were they ethnic Albanians?
8 A. Most of them were Albanians; however, there were also Turkish
9 citizens who had signed that declaration.
10 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I heard the translation, and I
11 believe that it is a mistake. It's not "Turkish citizens"; it's
12 "citizens of Turkish ethnicity."
13 Q. You mentioned September of 1990 and the movement for independence
14 and the referendum for independence. Did only ethnic Albanians
15 participate in that referendum, or did all citizens participate?
16 A. To tell you the truth, I have not counted the participants;
17 however, by chance the neighbour of my mother - she is a Serb - she also
18 took part in the vote and voted in favour of the independence of Kosova.
19 Q. Can you tell us the name of that neighbour? Last name?
20 A. Mohn.
21 Q. [Previous translation continued] ... Albanian?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you. In May 1990, there were parliamentary elections and
24 presidential elections for Kosovo and Metohija, and Dr. Ibrahim Rugova
25 had a land-slide victory in the presidential election. How many members
1 of parliament who were elected in that election were of Serb ethnicity,
2 if any?
3 A. There were Turks elected as members. There was no Serb elected;
4 however, their seats were provided as vacant in the parliament of Kosova.
5 These were seats designed for the citizens of Serbian ethnicity. So if
6 they wanted to be elected, they could be elected for those seats.
7 Q. Do you know and will you agree with me that at that time under
8 the federal criminal code, such activity related to the organising of
9 parliamentary elections in circumvention of the existing legislation was
10 found to be a criminal act, a subversion of the federal system and the
11 constitutional order?
12 A. There was no federation as such at that time. From the decision
13 of the Badinter Commission, the Yugoslav socialist republic had died, or
14 judicially this republic had been declared as dead. That period, from
15 the moment when the death of this country was declared until the birth of
16 the new states, is a provisional period, a transitional period, during
17 which the federation, which you called as Yugoslav socialist republic,
18 was a violent creation -- was a forced creation set up to justify the
19 military actions of the Serbian regime, as well as to cover up the
20 occupation of Kosova.
21 At the moment when socialist Yugoslavia was declared as dead was
22 a moment in which all the peoples and the units that existed within that
23 federation at that time to make -- to take decisions on their own future.
24 Kosova, on 2 July 1990
25 will of the people of Kosova, and this will was in favour of
1 independence. So I think it's totally irrelevant to refer to what other
2 institutions might have decided at that time.
3 Q. Let me ask you again. Under the laws of the Federal Republic
5 A. Once again, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was not set up on
6 the basis of the will of the people of Kosova, and the citizens of Kosova
7 have not accepted this creature.
8 Q. I fully understand that. I'm not going to repeat my question
9 again because we have that law here, and in some other part of this trial
10 we will tender it as evidence. So I'm not going to insist any more.
11 I will only ask you, as a follow-up to my previous question,
12 since you are well known as a man working for democratic values for a
13 long time, I'll ask you: Do you believe elections to be democratic if
14 only ethnic Albanian citizens participated in the elections? You
15 mentioned a couple of ethnic Turks but ...
16 A. I would reformulate my answer. On the basis of the OSCE
17 standards, these were not free and fair elections; however, again, on
18 basis of the standards, those elections were even freer and fairer than
19 those held in Serbia
20 occupation conditions. However, what should never be doubted is that
21 there was an expression of will by the citizens for independence and the
22 people, even though the conditions were so bad, were willing to
23 contribute to holding those elections.
24 It's just like a soccer game. If you go to the stadium and still
25 refuse to play football, then the consequences are there for you to
1 suffer under FIFA regulations.
2 Q. I don't think FIFA rules were applied in this case, but let's
3 move on.
4 You mentioned the Bertelsmann Research Foundation. Since you
5 participated in its work, who is the founder and the financier of this
7 A. It's the Mohn family.
8 Q. Tell me, if it was really a case of legitimate negotiation
9 between the delegations of Serbia
10 mentioned Rhodes
11 participants from the Serb side - but as far as I remember, and I hope
12 you will agree, that both of them were members of the opposition at that
13 time. They were not represented in the government, not even this new
14 democracy about which you said that Mihajlovic, who was the leader of
15 that party, had access to Milosevic, they did not participate in the
16 government too. They were in opposition.
17 A. I think something should be corrected in your question. I did
18 not say that these were negotiations between Kosova and Serbia
19 were "track 2" negotiations, that is, negotiations in the second channel,
20 if we could put it that way. So people who were interested in such talks
21 or, let's say, civil society, people thought that they could use this
22 opportunity to contribute to the creation of a kind of framework for what
23 should have been later official negotiations. These meetings, this
24 dialogue which took place with the assistance of Bertelsmann, were never
25 considered as a process of negotiation.
1 Q. Thank you. We have clarified this point, and I will have no
2 further questions on that. I had to cover this ground because of the
3 response that is on the record from your previous testimony.
4 I will now go back to the case of the Jashari family. You said
5 that Adem Jashari was one of the founders of the KLA, and I agree about
6 that, and you said that before that he was a well-known activist in this
7 area. You meant Prekaz and Drenica and that area. Activist of what
9 A. As far as I know, he could have been an activist of the
10 Democratic League or any other party. But what I could say was that he
11 was a person well known in those -- in that area.
12 Q. Thank you. On this point, when we're talking specifically about
13 Adem Jashari, do you know that he was under investigation by the
14 competent authorities at the time, it was a criminal investigation, and
15 that he was even convicted?
16 A. I did not have such information at that time. It's clear that
17 Mr. Jashari was a person wanted by the police. In the final analysis,
18 the siege proved this. As far as the conviction is concerned, this was
19 mentioned by Mr. Milosevic at the meeting he had with us. He described
20 him as criminal.
21 Q. That's right. I agree with you there.
22 A. That's what --
23 Q. But he said that, that Milosevic said that, not that he did or
24 didn't, but that Milosevic said that.
25 You said that members of the Jashari family were called upon to
1 surrender, not surrender their arms but to surrender. We know that they
2 did not do that. Now, do you know that there was fighting between the
3 forces of law and order and the Jashari family? That's my first
5 A. I have no doubt that there was an exchange of firing.
6 Q. Do you know that several policemen were seriously wounded on that
8 A. I do not doubt it either. Mr. Jashari had declared earlier that
9 he would fight till his death.
10 Q. [Albanian on English channel) [Previous translation continues]
11 ... that at those journalists of yours were very frequently accompanied
12 journalist from foreign news agencies, and that they were valuable
13 assistants to the foreign journalists for them to be able to pass through
14 the blockades and check-points along the roads. Now, who had all those
15 blockades? Who had control of the check-points?
16 A. [Previous translation continues] ... vice versa. The foreign
17 journalists were a big help for our journalists to get access because the
18 check-points on those roads were also controlled by the Serbian police.
19 There were also check-points set up by KLA, no doubt about that.
20 However, I don't believe that the KLA obstructed the access to the media
21 because I think that it was in the interests of the KLA to ensure that
22 these views, these pictures, reached the world.
23 Q. Now, while we're on the subject -- well, I'll move on to another
24 area, the negotiations, starting with G15 through G5, the Rambouillet
25 negotiators and the negotiations in Paris
1 you with the very few number of questions I have on that topic, but I do
2 believe that they are key questions.
3 Now, did you ever, since 1997, as a delegation - and I'm asking
4 you that because you took part in all these events, G15, G5, Rambouillet,
6 Albanians from Kosovo, did you have any lesser demand than full
7 independence for Kosovo and Metohija, either through peaceful
8 negotiations, democratic institutions, up to a referendum, or, as some
9 members thought, by armed struggle? Did you ever have a lesser demand
10 than complete independence?
11 A. Not only from 1997 but from 1991, there was a consensus in our
12 society that Kosova should be independent. This consensus was reflected
13 by us who were engaged in negotiations, and we tried to defend that
14 consensus in the best possible way.
15 Q. Thank you for that answer. It's quite clear, in view of the
16 referendum that was held, but I wanted to hear it from you.
17 Now, were you a participant in all these negotiations directly,
18 as a representative of the Albanian nation, independently, you said. So
19 when I'm asking you that, I'm talking about G15, G5, Rambouillet, and
21 A. Yes, I took part in all of them.
22 Q. Thank you. I also have to tell you that I'm grateful to you for
23 the answer you gave with respect to the Rambouillet meeting, and later,
24 the Paris
25 clearly said that the representatives of the Serb delegation were offered
1 an agreement by which the state would give up its territory - you didn't
2 say that but that is what is contained in the provisions of the
3 agreement, deferred, of course - and that the state would be bombed
4 unless the agreement were accepted, which in my opinion was contrary to
5 international law and customs and represents quite literally coercion,
6 brutal coercion, with the threat of the greatest force behind it from the
7 greatest power; or to use the language used by the army, an ultimatum
8 before a war. So would you agree with me there that that was what the
9 situation was when it came to the Serb negotiators in Rambouillet, and
10 then especially so subsequently in Paris?
11 A. I think that you have a description which is closer to the
12 description of your officials, a description they stuck to for many
13 years. I'd like now to give you a description which is not that
14 conventional. The Serbian delegation which represented a state that had
15 exercised systematically, and was continuing to do that, violence against
16 people in Kosova, so that country was given the opportunity to end this
17 systematic violence by signing a contract with international community
18 and the representatives of Kosova.
19 That contract would give Serbia
20 army and police presence for a limited period of time, a process for the
21 protection of the Serbian cultural and religious heritage, a process for
22 the protection of Serbian citizens who were in a minority in Kosova, a
23 process for rebuilding the democratic institutions in which the Serbian
24 citizens would be represented, and a peaceful process through which
25 Kosova would ultimately take its decision on its status. This would have
1 been done on the basis of all of this contract.
2 This interpretation would mean that Serbia would be rewarded for
3 taking a democratic step and for deciding to put an end to the regime of
4 occupation and repression of Albanian people in Kosova. Otherwise, if
6 penalised, that is, the genocide which was being prepared by Serbia
7 Kosova would have been penalised. So this is a description which I think
8 is closer to the truth.
9 Q. I wouldn't agree with you on that point, since the heritage of a
10 modern civilisation, particularly when we talk about democracy, implies
11 negotiation, first of all, talks, and so on, whereas your answer contains
12 what the previous position was, that the Albanian nationality had a
13 clear-cut stand in 1990 for complete independence, regardless of what
14 would happen. But I don't want to enter into polemics with you on that.
15 I'd just like to ask you this: Did you hold negotiations with
16 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia on that occasion or with Serbia
17 mean Rambouillet and Paris, there.
18 A. Formally, you could describe it as you wish, but it's difficult
19 to say to what extent the delegation was a delegation of federal
21 though Montenegro
22 between Serbia
23 was only one address for the negotiations, and the address was in
25 person who was the man charged with taking decisions on his country.
1 Q. But we can conclude that you nonetheless held negotiations with
3 Republic of Yugoslavia
4 have the legitimacy to negotiate on behalf of Montenegro, which was also
5 there as a state within the then Federal Republic of Yugoslavia
6 the President of the Republic of Serbia
7 Milutinovic, who took part in the negotiations throughout.
8 A. At the end of negotiations in Paris, Mr. Milutinovic shrugged his
9 shoulders and said he could not take any decision because it was his boss
10 who took decisions on those issues, and his boss was Milosevic.
11 Q. Did he say that too?
12 A. He said these words to the mediators.
13 Q. And finally, linked to the agreements - Rambouillet, Paris, and
14 everything that you went through with the delegation of Albanians from
15 Kosovo - I'm going to ask you this: In testifying today before this
16 Tribunal, can you really consider yourself to be objective and unbiased
17 as a witness, whereas you represented the interests of only the Albanians
18 throughout, Albanians from Kosovo? Isn't that, in a certain sense, a
19 conflict of interest?
20 A. My coming here to this Tribunal is in the quality of a witness.
21 I have come here to testify. I'm here to be asked by you, and I'm here
22 to answer your questions. I have not come here to demonstrate an absence
23 or presence of conflict of interest. I've come here to tell you whatever
24 you ask me for, without any discrimination to the truth. So this is why
25 I'm here.
1 Q. Of course everybody here would like that to be the case. Now,
2 Mr. Surroi, I'm going to leave that topic and move on to another area
3 with other questions.
4 Precisely because of the answer I've just been given, I'm going
5 to skip over a whole series of questions that I had intended to ask you,
6 and what I'm now going to ask you relates to what you stated earlier in
7 other cases that are considered relevant cases, your testimony in the --
8 well, in a case that was known as the Milosevic case, the Milosevic
9 trial, and your testimony in the Milutinovic et al trial.
10 Answer me this: Since I have studied the transcripts from those
11 trials, tell me why, then, didn't you mention the story about the
12 thrown-away ID cards that you saw on the streets of Pristina and about
13 the house of your childhood friend, the scene when you entered the house
14 of your childhood friend and saw the hot cake and so on? How come it's
15 only after all this time that you happen to remember things like that, if
16 I can call them details, that you didn't mention in trials which, during
17 the pre-trial, were considered to be far more important than what we're
18 talking about now, the period that we're discussing now?
19 A. There's no -- there is no specific reason. Memory is not a
20 straightforward line. The memory occurs in different contexts. So it's
21 in this context, if you ask me for many other issues, I could talk to you
22 about other issues which I've not mentioned on any other occasions. My
23 life experience is much broader than the framework of questions and
24 answers in this judgement.
25 Q. You said that the Albanians rejoiced but were also concerned when
1 the NATO bombing started. Now I'm going to ask you this: Do you know
2 how many civilians were killed in Kosovo? I'm not going to ask you about
3 ethnic Albanians. Just generally, how many civilians were killed in
4 Kosovo, at least roughly speaking, a rough estimate?
5 A. Most of the people who were killed were civilians in Kosova.
6 Most of the people killed by the Serbian forces were civilians.
7 Q. I think that it was clear to you that the context of my question
8 was the bombing by NATO. That's what I was asking you about.
9 A. Yes. The gravest incidents in regard to the NATO bombing was in
10 the village of Korisha
11 proportion of people killed by the NATO bombing to the number of people
12 killed by the Serbian forces is clearly -- is huge, so if you compare
13 this number of 100 people to more than 10.000 people killed. So you can
14 see the context, as far as numbers are concerned, we're talking about.
15 Q. Do you know that in Kosovo several thousand Serbs disappeared and
16 their remains were never found. Some were; some weren't. But anyway
17 that number disappeared.
18 A. The number of those who disappeared is huge. I'm speaking about
19 citizens of Kosova. The majority of those missing are Albanians, and
20 there is quite a number of Serbian citizens of Kosova who are missing.
21 According to the information that I last read, the number in total of
22 those missing and who have not been identified or found is 2.500 of both
23 ethnic groups.
24 The Serb civilians are difficult to be found due to the fact that
25 their bodies were not put in a collective grave. The Albanian bodies, by
1 those who deal with these issues, can be easily identified in the mass
2 graves in Serbia
3 Q. My question is this: Do you know that the number of civilians
4 who were killed during the NATO bombing - I'm not going to use -- I'm not
5 going to say whether they were killed by Albanians or the NATO pact - but
6 do you know that the number of Serbs in relation to the population, the
7 Serb population, in Kosovo percentage-wise is much higher than the number
8 of Albanian civilians who disappeared? I'm not going to say whether they
9 were killed by the Serb forces or NATO. In relation to the figures you
10 mentioned and statistics, would you agree with me there?
11 A. I was not clear whether you're referring to the victims of
12 bombing or to the kidnapping of civilians.
13 Q. I'm talking about general things. A dead man, a dead man is a
14 very sad thing, whether the person was killed as a result of NATO's
15 action, depleted uranium, or by somebody's hand in retaliation for some
16 other death or for political reasons. I'm not going into any of that.
17 I'm just looking at the number of people killed in one way or another.
18 Their bodies were not found; they went missing.
19 So what I asked you in that context is this: Would you agree
20 that the number of Serbs who were killed in Kosovo in relation to the
21 overall number of Serbs living in Kosovo, the Serb population is many
22 times more than the number and percentage of Albanians killed in relation
23 to the percentage of Albanians living in Kosovo, so in relative terms?
24 A. I wouldn't say so. And you should divide the combat activities
25 into several phases. We deal here with details that I'm not quite
1 familiar with. I'm not that precise when it comes to statistics in terms
2 of these events. From 1998 to March 1999, then the phase from the
3 beginning of the NATO campaign, 24th March-June 1999, and the
4 redistribution [as interpreted] phase and the entire summer of 1999, so I
5 think you will agree that there existed an organised state instrument
6 that persecuted Albanian citizens. There were combat activities. There
7 was war that damaged, cause damage to the citizens, and there existed a
8 retribution movement that also caused damage to a number of citizens of
9 Serbian ethnicity, and I think this is more important than the
11 Q. Thank you for the answer anyway.
12 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Now, I think I would require
13 another 15 to 20 minutes, Your Honours, to complete my cross-examination,
14 and I think that this is a good time, before I move on to another area,
15 to take the break.
16 JUDGE PARKER: We will certainly accommodate that suggestion,
17 Mr. Djordjevic, and we will have our first break now, resuming at 5
18 minutes to 11.00.
19 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djordjevic.
22 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] May I ask the legal officer to
23 bring up the map of Kosovo. That's 65 ter 00044.
24 Q. Mr. Surroi, we now all see on the screens the map of Kosovo. We
25 see that in the central part of Kosovo there is Pristina, although it's a
1 bit to the east, but we see the town of Pec in the centre. Since you
2 worked as a reporter, as a journalist, I suppose you are aware that just
3 before the summer offensive, there were barricades and roadblocks on the
4 Pristina-Pec road in 1998.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Looking at this map, kindly tell us, since you still lived there,
7 how was one able to go to Pec from Pristina at that time in one's own
8 car, without encountering any roadblocks, army check-points, guerilla
9 fighters, et cetera?
10 A. To travel without problem at the time was impossible. There were
11 blockades, check-points, patrols everywhere. Therefore, any movement in
12 Kosova took three or four times more time than usual. I already told you
13 that before.
14 Q. I understand, but let me be more precise. If you were, for
15 instance, an ethnic Serb and you want to arrive safely to Pec and you
16 know there are roadblocks would you agree with me that from Pristina you
17 would go first to the north, to Zvecani; and then via Sandzak, Tutin you
18 would go to Rozaj; and then from Rozaj via Kuljaj you would go to Pec.
19 That's what ethnic Serbs did to avoid the roadblocks.
20 A. This route was possible, but as I told you, it took four or five
21 times longer to make that travelling. It was difficult for both Serbians
22 and the Albanians to travel around at that time.
23 Q. Was it the same with the Suva Reka-Pristina road in 1998, just
24 before the summer?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Would you agree with me that ethnic Serbs travelled from Suva
2 Reka to Pristina by going first south towards Prizren, Strpce, Urosevac
3 and only then to Pristina, instead of going directly from Suva Reka to
4 the north towards Pristina?
5 A. I don't believe it would be helpful in this trial to provide
6 estimations about routes in Kosova. But I could also give you details
7 about a route which I followed in order to go to Junik together with
8 Mr. Holbrooke and Mr. Shala. We had to go from Prishtina towards south
9 in the direction of Ferizaj, and then we took the western direction for
10 the Sharr mountains. In the direction from Prizren, we were stopped
11 several times by the Serbian police. Then from Prizren to Gjakova , we
12 were stopped by Serbian police, and then from Gjakova, we went to Junik.
13 This route under normal circumstances would take only one hour and 45
14 minutes. At that time we did it -- even though we were provided access
15 in most of the cases, despite the stops by the police, we reached our
16 destination after five hours. So I think you should agree that it was
17 difficult for any Kosovar citizen to travel around at that time.
18 Q. As you mentioned, Ambassador Holbrooke and you were traveling to
19 Junik. Did you travel in cars with diplomatic licence plates?
20 A. Yes. They were in the US embassy car.
21 Q. In this connection, can I conclude that you were not supposed to
22 have any problems, either with Serb police check-points or the KLA
24 A. As you know, under normal circumstances there should have been no
25 problem; however, we were still stopped.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] May I ask the Trial Chamber to
3 admit this map and to assign it a number.
4 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D00003, Your Honours.
6 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
7 Q. Mr. Surroi, during the NATO air-strikes, were civilian facilities
8 targeted, such as private houses of Albanians, factories, et cetera?
9 A. One of the bombs fell in the post office of Prishtina. This was
10 the only bomb that fell in Prishtina and in a civilian facility. As I
11 told you earlier, there were two or three or more incidents in which the
12 columns of people with tractors were bombarded. These tractors, this
13 convoy of people, in the case of Korisha, these were people who were
14 expelled from their village, from Korisha. They were forcefully ordered
15 to go towards Albania
16 were stopping at the village of Korisha, they were bombarded.
17 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] May I ask the legal officer to
18 bring up photographs of the centre of Pristina, D001-2868/2869, first
19 2868 and then 2869.
20 Q. Mr. Surroi, you see here three photographs. Can you give us a
21 very brief comment on what you see?
22 A. The photo on the left is the Kosova post office building. Now
23 it's a building used by Kosova government. That building suffered damage
24 in the window, in those -- the post was bombarded at night. The post is
25 pictured on the right above. That night when the post was shelled, I was
1 about 1 kilometre away, as the crow flies, so I heard the bomb when it
3 The photograph on the right-hand corner is a shopping mall in
4 Prishtina. The windows were also broken of this facility as a result of
5 the explosion.
6 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] May I ask, the next photograph,
7 2869. D001-2869.
8 Q. Could you comment briefly.
9 A. This house is next to the post office, which was hit as a result
10 of the bombing of the post, and a very old family from Prishtina was
12 Q. All these photographs depict that one house?
13 A. This is a street, an old street in Prishtina with old
14 infrastructure. Now, whether it is just one house or more, that I don't
15 know. But I know that in this particular house there were civilian
16 victims of this bombing, civilians, members of an old family from
17 Prishtina who were killed during the explosion.
18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Surroi.
19 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender these two
20 sets of photographs and to have numbers for them.
21 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber will receive the two sets of
22 photographs as they've been displayed, including the text.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, D001-2868 will be assigned D00004;
24 and the other one, which is identified as D001-2869, will be assigned
1 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] May I now ask for a video-clip
2 to be played of the ABC television, marked as D001-2870, and another
3 video-clip from Studio B, a local Belgrade
4 that the witness understands and speaks English fluently, I would like
5 him to listen to the recording, and once we have seen the video-clip, I
6 would like his brief comment. He has already said a few words about this
7 without any question from the Defence, but I would like a comment on the
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: It's not ABC; it's
11 MR. DJORDJEVIC: I should intervene regarding the minutes of the
12 trial. It is not BBC
13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Djordjevic.
14 MR. DJORDJEVIC: Thank you.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Surroi, a moment ago you were talking about this incident.
18 My first question: Was this a convoy of Albanians going back to their
19 houses, who were not on their way to Albania?
20 A. I cannot answer your question. This is a documentary. You
21 cannot hear any description of the incident, and you cannot identify
22 whether this refers to one village or another village, so I cannot give
23 you any specific answer. However, two things come on the surface from
24 this documentary.
25 First, throughout the bombing campaign, I was in Prishtina, and I
1 was able to follow even the Serb media in relation to what was going on
2 at the time. It is not honest to show on the Serb national media, to
3 demonstrate a concern for the Albanian nation when at the same time the
4 same state demonstrated terror over the Albanian population. But this
5 all was war propaganda, and that cannot be explained in rational terms
7 Secondly, the question posed here is, why were these citizens
8 forced to leave their village and to form this convoy of tractors? That
9 answer is very simple. They were forced to leave their homes. This
10 violence was being exercised in continuity for years by the Serb police,
11 by the Serb authorities. Eventually, many of these villages were
12 emptied, following direct orders of police commanders, Serb police
13 commanders, who knocked on the doors and told the people to pack up their
14 things and leave in a matter of minutes.
15 Q. If you looked at this video-clip carefully, did you notice
16 members of the Serbian police carrying the wounded, a Serb policeman
17 carrying an Albanian child, Serbian policemen helping people evacuate and
18 find shelter?
19 A. Again, you're talking about a documentary that is out of context,
20 which is not defined in terms of time and space, illustrated by
21 radiophonic communication between pilots and bases. So I see the purpose
22 of this documentary and, as I said, it is a product of a period of time
23 when propaganda was being launched. As I said, I understand the purpose
24 of the propaganda, but I don't justify it.
25 Q. Mr. Surroi, the truth of this documentary is precisely a document
1 about a horrible truth, not propaganda. I don't want to say horrible to
2 whom and why. This video-clip was filmed on the 7th of April, 1998
3 It's the environs of Meja village. It's a convoy of Albanian refugees,
4 and on that point I'll agree with you, who were on their way to their
5 homes, targeted by NATO from 1330 until 1530, for a full two hours,
6 although the pilot said to his base, as we could hear clearly from this
7 video-clip - the base was called Mother - the pilot said he thought he
8 could see civilians, and, nevertheless, he received orders to attack.
9 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I will not comment, myself, on
10 this video-clip. I will just ask the Trial Chamber to admit this
11 video-clip and to assign it a number.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you will allow me, please. I
13 cannot make any comments because other bodies should be there to define
14 the quality of this documentary. Since you mentioned the village of
15 Meja, this village is known not for the NATO bombing. It is better known
16 because of the execution of civilians, of all those men who were
17 separated from their children, of the elderly people separated from the
18 convoy and executed. More than 100 people from this village, from this
19 incident, were -- are still missing, and their families cannot bury their
21 So I pose here the same question: What made these people leave
22 their villages and set off for Albania
23 What made them return from Albania
24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djordjevic, the video has some difficulties
25 about its understanding and interpretation at the moment. The witness
1 does not recognise the location. Clearly, the soundtrack has nothing to
2 do with what is being depicted in -- both in time and in circumstance.
3 The Chamber would certainly be prepared to have the video-clip marked for
4 identification at this stage, but it will be necessary for other evidence
5 to indicate what is the subject matter of the video and how it relates to
6 our concerns in this case.
7 So if you're content with that, we'll mark it for identification
8 at this time, but we have flagged that we will need other evidence to
9 enable us to know what it is that is being depicted.
10 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I'll agree with you, Your
11 Honour. The Defence, too, had a great deal of problem in identifying all
12 this material, but we will, in the time we have, to ensure that we have
13 exhibits and material relating to the concrete exhibit. But for the
14 moment, we are satisfied with what we've just heard Your Honour to say.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We'll have this video-clip marked for
17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned D00006, MFI, Your Honours.
18 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to have another
19 video-clip shown on e-court. It is D0001-0696.
20 Q. Mr. Surroi, I think you are familiar with this footage. You
21 haven't got it on your screen yet. Anyway, it's the visit by Ambassador
22 Holbrooke to the village of Junik
23 here we have the footage.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I think that will be enough.
1 Q. You can see yourself on that footage. Do you agree that that was
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you. Now, what I'm interested in is this: What was the
5 purpose of Ambassador Holbrooke's visit to the village of Junik
6 in June?
7 A. At that time, professor Agani, Mr. Shala, and I asked Ambassador
8 Holbrooke to see, in concrete terms on the field, what was going on in
9 Kosova. As I said, our journey took us quite awhile, four hours, to
10 arrive to that part of Kosova, western part, where fighting was going on.
11 So we wanted to see with our own eyes what was going on in those parts
12 where the war and combat activities had escalated.
13 At the time, in June and July of that year, we - that is, part of
14 the Kosovan delegation - were trying to unify the political positions of
15 the Albanians of Kosova so that -- with the aim to unify the two wings -
16 the wing of the passive resistance headed by Mr. Rugova and the armed
17 wing, the KLA wing. So we had information about the developments within
18 the ranks of the Kosova Liberation Army.
19 So at that time, we went to the village of Junik
20 received by this organised military structure. We sat and had a talk.
21 We were informed about what was going on in that particular village, and
22 we left.
23 Q. On that same occasion did you happen to visit, for example, some
24 headquarters of the Serb police and army that was in the war zone? Did
25 you go there together with Ambassador Holbrooke when you went to visit
1 representatives of the KLA?
2 A. Before arriving at part of Gjakova municipality, we stopped at a
3 junction between Prishtina, Prizren, and Gjakova, and we came across an
4 armed and fortified roadblock of the Serbian police forces. Upon the
5 insistence of Ambassador Holbrooke, the two of us got out of the car and
6 spoke with the commander of the police forces who was controlling that
7 part of the area, and he explained to us the position of the police, the
8 Serbian police, and the Serbian state, their tactics, and their -- then
9 the purpose of their presence in that part of the region.
10 Q. Now, that commander of the Serb police, did he introduce himself
11 to you?
12 A. Probably he did, but I do not remember the name. When I asked
13 him as to why he was there, he said that he was there to defend the
14 Catholic village from the KLA that, in his words, was a fundamentalist
15 and Islamic military organisation. But when I said to him that the
16 commander of that area, the KLA commander was a Catholic one, he said --
17 and when I told him that many KLA leaders were of Catholic religion, he
18 then turned to a different topic.
19 Q. In that connection, I'd like to ask you this: Would you agree
20 with me when I say that the activities of the Serbian police at that time
21 in that area was to deblock the roads and communication lines without
22 entering into Albanian villages, or not, when we're talking about the
23 Pec-Djakovica road via Decani, for example?
24 A. If I clearly understood your question, in that period of time,
25 and as I said I'm not well informed of all the armed activities, but if
1 my recollection serves me right, there was an order at the time to create
2 a corridor, a 5-kilometre corridor, from the Albanian border, a security
3 corridor, security belt. So from Decan to Gjakova, the whole border area
4 of 5 kilometres was comprised.
5 The aim of this roadblock was, in my opinion, to control this
6 border belt, extending to Has from the direction of Prizren, and then
7 joined with the mountain part of Gjakova and Decan.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: --
10 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this
12 THE INTERPRETER: Page 38, line 5: Instead of "KLA leader," I
13 would like to say "KLA soldiers."
14 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] As I was saying, I'd like to
15 tender the video into evidence, and I'd like it to be given a number.
16 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D00007, Your Honours.
18 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Along with the note that it was
19 without audio-tape, without an audio signal.
20 And as I'm drawing to the end of my cross-examination, I'd just
21 like to say that all the D4 and D5 exhibits linked to the Defence case,
22 I'd like to say that the Defence is only asking the admission into
23 evidence of the photographs, without the text below, which is in Serbian,
24 in the Cyrillic script. So just the visual images.
25 And bringing my cross-examination to a close, I'd just like to
1 return to Pristina, and as the witness said, the retribution of the Serbs
2 after the first night of the bombing or, rather, the beginning of the
3 bombing, by NATO, we all remember full well that he said in his testimony
4 that those who had icons were spared; those who did not have icons were
5 not spared. And the Prosecutor directly, when it came to the question of
6 icons, used the adjective "Orthodox."
7 Q. Now, in that connection, I would like to ask the witness the
8 following: Can he give us an answer as to whether, except for the
9 Albanians who are Muslims, whether there are Christians, Catholic Muslims
10 and even Orthodox --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Albanians, interpreter's correction.
12 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. -- Catholic, Christian, Albanians, and Orthodox Albanians?
14 A. In Kosova, there could be two Albanian Orthodox whom I know. As
15 far as the Catholics are concerned, their share of the population could
16 be around 10 per cent. Mr. Djordjevic, the icon is not part of the
17 Catholic religious tradition. The icon exists in most of the cases in
18 our religion traditions, starting from the Byzantine times, so it exists
19 in the Orthodox religious rites.
20 Therefore, the display of the icons on those days in Prishtina
21 was an intention to display religious affiliation. So the protection
22 which was provided through the icon was through this religious
23 identification. So it was used as a means of protection, used by the
24 Serbs to protect themselves from the wave of destruction, and in fact it
25 was good for them to use this means as a way of protecting themselves.
1 Q. Yes, I will agree with you that the icons are, first and
2 foremost, a reflection of the Orthodox traditions and Byzantine culture
3 and so on. But let me remind you that Catholics also have images of Mary
4 and Christ and that those, too, are images or icons, iconos from the
5 Greek, which means image, picture.
6 Now, what about the aethiasts? There are quite a few communists
7 among the Serbs in Kosovo, more than Albanians.
8 A. I did not see any display of the five-cornered star -- five-edges
9 star to be used on those days as a means of protection.
10 Q. Perhaps a picture of Josip Bros Tito. All right. I don't want
11 to go into that now.
12 But I'd like you to explain a phenomenon, which I don't
13 understand, and I'll wind up with that, and I see this today, a
14 phenomenon which is not very clear to me, but I'm sure that you'll have
15 some explanation that will wind up my cross-examination for today.
16 Far before the conflicts broke out, I went to Kosovo many times
17 as a lawyer and even during the war, and I have been Defence counsel, as
18 well, for this Tribunal. But what I would see all the time, even before
19 the conflict, were flags of the Republic of Albania in Kosovo, displayed
20 in Kosovo, at weddings, at any joyous occasions or other ceremonies,
21 perhaps sad ones, too, or elections; I would see Albanian flags flown in
22 Kosovo, the Republic of Albania
24 of the Republic of Albania
25 attributes of another state and country to be displayed in another state?
1 I'd like to hear your explanation because I consider you to be a man of
2 integrity and a well-educated man. So could you explain that phenomenon?
3 A. Thank you for your consideration. Initially, it was the flag.
4 Then the state came. The Albania
5 times of Skanderbeg and held up during the Albanian wars against the
6 Ottoman Empire. This was a flag which existed before any form of
7 Albanian status existed. The fact that the Republic of Albania
8 natural way adopted this as the national flag does not mean that the
9 Republic of Albania
10 nation. Part of the Albanian nation not in a natural way has remained
11 outside the borders of Albania
12 outside Albania
13 state used it, the Albanian state used it as its national symbol.
14 Q. Well, I'd now like to go on to another question. Ethnologically,
15 Albanian -- an Albanian means a citizen of the Republic of Albania
16 Would you agree with me?
17 A. One of the components of the Albanian is being a citizen of
19 state identity.
20 Q. And tell me this: How do Albanians in Albanian call the Republic
21 of Albania
22 A. The Republic of Albania
23 Q. Thank you. [No interpretation]
24 A. Albanian. Shqiptar.
25 THE INTERPRETER: So that is their own name for themselves,
1 Shqiperise. The question not interpreted, interpreter's note.
2 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to thank the Trial
3 Chamber. That completes my cross-examination. I'd like to thank
4 Mr. Veton Surroi as well.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Djordjevic.
6 Could I mention that the Chamber has received the photographs
7 which were tendered clearly as extracts from some publication. We have
8 received the pages as they were displayed, and that includes the text.
9 If there is agreement from the Prosecution, we could receive them without
10 the text, but otherwise, we receive the exhibit as it was shown and
11 tendered. Clearly, though, the evidence has not sought to explain or
12 comment upon the text that it's displayed, so the Chamber would not be
13 able to attach any weight to the text at the moment. But formally, it is
14 received as part of the exhibit that was displayed.
15 MR. DJORDJEVIC: If you'll allow me, Your Honours, there is
16 one -- another intervene.
17 [Interpretation] We have here in the transcript that there was no
18 interpretation of my last question. It is page 42, line 6, at 11.50 and
19 24 seconds. It says "[No interpretation]," "Q" and then "[No
20 interpretation]." Now, my question was this: How do you refer to
21 yourselves, your Albanians? How do you call yourselves in your own
22 language? What word do you use?
23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that, Mr. Djordjevic. That will
24 enable the completion of the transcript, and the account you've just
25 given accords generally with my recollection of it as well.
1 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, may I?
2 JUDGE PARKER: Indeed, Mr. Surroi.
3 THE WITNESS: In the transcript, as well, at 42, 7, my answer is:
4 "A. Albanian." And then "Siptar," which is not spelled properly. The
5 proper spelling of "Shqiptar" as we call ourselves is S-h-q-i-p-t-a-r.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that.
7 Ms. Kravetz, do you have any re-examination?
8 MS. KRAVETZ: No, Your Honour, I have no further questions for
9 this witness.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.
11 You'll be pleased to know, Mr. Surroi, that that concludes the
12 questions of you. The Chamber would like to thank you for your
13 attendance and for the assistance you've been able to give us --
14 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE PARKER: -- during the process of questioning that has
16 taken place. You may now, of course, leave and go about your ordinary
18 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.
19 JUDGE PARKER: We thank you very much.
20 [The witness withdrew]
21 MR. STAMP: If it please Your Honours, I think I should mention
22 quickly, before anything is done, that the next witness has protective
23 measures in place, so we would need to go into closed session before he
24 is brought in. I don't want him to be brought in before we go into
25 closed session.
1 JUDGE PARKER: I will just check on the nature of the protective
2 measures, Mr. Stamp.
3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
4 JUDGE PARKER: It will be necessary for the Chamber to adjourn
5 for some 20 minutes to enable physical screens and electronic protective
6 measures to be put in place. The Chamber would then resume the hearing.
7 That will leave us just one and a half hours to the end of the day's
8 session, so it will work out reasonably well in practice.
9 We will adjourn now and resume at a quarter past 12.00, by which
10 time the protective measures should be in place.
11 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honours.
12 --- Recess taken at 11.56 a.m.
13 --- On resuming at 12.19 p.m.
14 JUDGE PARKER: You're ready with the next witness, Mr. Stamp?
15 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honours. That is K83.
16 JUDGE PARKER: We'll move into closed session, then, to enable
17 the witness to come in. Then we will go into public session.
18 [Closed session]
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, open session.
6 Yes, Mr. Stamp.
7 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Could the witness be shown document 02352.
9 Examination by Mr. Stamp:
10 Q. Does that document contain a description of your identity?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you very much.
13 MR. STAMP: If it please Your Honours, could the document --
14 JUDGE PARKER: We'll tender that under seal, Mr. Stamp.
15 MR. STAMP: Yes.
16 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P00268 under seal, Your
18 MR. STAMP:
19 Q. In order to protect your identity, as of now we'll refer to you
20 as K83. Can you tell us briefly about your background. After you
21 completed primary and secondary school, did you do your military service,
22 as was customary in the former Yugoslavia?
23 A. Yes, that's right. I served in the army in 1992, finishing in
24 1993, in September. After my military service, (redacted)
25 (redacted) When I started working, a police
1 patrol came and served me with a summons for an interview at the police
3 Q. Did you eventually join the police force in Kosovo?
4 A. Yes. They asked me -- because they had taken my file from the
5 military department, they asked me if I wanted to serve on the reserve
6 force of the police.
7 Q. About when was it, or when was it, if you can recall precisely,
8 you joined the --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
10 MR. STAMP:
11 Q. When did you join the reserve police force?
12 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Stamp, because we have voice distortion, it
13 will be necessary for you to switch off your microphone the moment you've
14 finished your question.
15 MR. STAMP: Very well, Your Honour. I'll try to remember at all
17 Q. Yes. You were about to tell us when it was that you joined the
18 reserve police.
19 A. That was in 1994.
20 Q. After you joined, where were you posted?
21 A. We were in Suva Reka where we first provided security to the
22 police station, and later on we also went on field missions.
23 Q. These field missions were in the municipality of Suva Reka?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Were you posted there in 1998 and 1999?
1 A. Right.
2 Q. And if we could focus on 1998 and 1999, or 1999. At that time,
3 were you issued with uniforms?
4 A. Yes. I received a uniform, an automatic rifle, a pistol, and a
6 Q. In 1998 and 1999, were you attached to any particular unit or
7 police station?
8 A. I was not attached to a particular unit. We were there just to
9 assist active-duty policemen.
10 Q. What police station, if any, were you attached to in 1999?
11 A. I'm sorry. I did not quite understand.
12 Q. Where was the police station that you were attached to in 1999
14 A. We were in Suva Reka, and there was a police station in Suva Reka
15 where I worked.
16 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, with your leave, just so we could get
17 oriented where we're talking about, could I show the witness the document
18 which has now become D00003. Perhaps you could zoom in a little bit
20 Q. Towards the south centre of the province of Kosovo
21 this map, do you see the municipality of Suva Reka
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And almost in the centre of it is Suva Reka -- Suva Reka town,
24 which is the capital.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And to the west, there is Orahovac municipality, and to the
2 south, you see Prizren municipality.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Just one last thing I'd like you to point out on this map. You
5 see a red line -- you see red lines on the map, but if you could look at
6 the red line that goes between Suva Reka and Prizren, does that depict
7 the main road between Suva Reka and Prizren?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you very much.
10 MR. STAMP: Perhaps we could now look at another map, and this is
11 the document 00615, which is an atlas. A series of maps is inside that
12 atlas, and I'd like to look at page 23 of that document. This is a map
13 showing Suva Reka and its environs. Could we focus or zoom in a little
14 bit more on Suva Reka, please. Thank you.
15 Q. You will see the surrounding towns of Suva Reka. There's one I'd
16 like you to focus on in particular. Do you see to the left or to the
17 west of Suva Reka a town called Rastane?
18 A. Yes, I can see that.
19 Q. About how far is that town from Suva Reka?
20 A. Roughly 3 kilometres.
21 Q. If I could return to something on the other map, the distance
22 between Suva Reka and Pristina by the road is about how far? Sorry, I
23 see I said Suva Reka and Pristina. Suva Reka and Prizren, about how far
24 is that distance?
25 A. Eighteen to 20 kilometres.
1 Q. Thank you. If we could move back to what you were doing in 1998,
2 1999, in that period did you work full time or part time in the reserve
4 A. Well, I worked off and on.
5 Q. About how long would you be off and how long on?
6 A. I would be off for a month or two, and then I would be on for
7 three, four, five, up to six months.
8 Q. In the period 1998 to, say, March, 23rd of March, to be precise,
9 1999, was there a KLA presence in the municipality?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And kindly tell us what sort of activities the KLA was engaged in
12 in the municipality.
13 A. They had some check-points of their own in Rastane facing
14 Drinjevci, Dulje, and they stopped buses and kidnapped Serbs off the
16 Q. And did the police take any action in respect to what the KLA
17 were doing?
18 A. Well, the police took steps, but in the time it took the police
19 to get there, they would have already escaped and hidden. They would not
20 be staying around, waiting for police.
21 Q. In the municipality, were there on occasion battles between the
22 police and KLA units?
23 A. Yes, that happened.
24 Q. Were there battles with KLA units within the town of Suva Reka
25 itself, in the heart of the town of Suva Reka?
1 A. There were some battles on the road towards Rastane.
2 Q. How far were they from the town itself, the town centre?
3 A. Around 2, 2 and a half kilometres.
4 Q. Were there any actual battles within the town of Suva Reka
5 between KLA units and the police?
6 A. Well, there was one assault on a member of the State Security
7 Service, the DB, when the terrorists shot at the man as he was buying
9 Q. About when was this?
10 A. I don't remember the date.
11 Q. Apart from that, were there any other battles? I'm speaking of
12 battles with the KLA in Suva Reka itself, the town of Suva Reka itself.
13 A. Well, as I said, it was up the road to Rastane, in that area,
14 that day when this incident happened, when they shot at this man from the
16 Q. Could I ask you, if you recall, who were the main commanders of
17 the police station in Suva Reka town?
18 A. The Chief was Vitosevic, the Commander was Radojko Repanovic, the
19 Deputy Commander was Dragan Borisavljevic, and the Assistant Commander
20 was Nenad Jovanovic.
21 Q. Okay. When you say Vitosevic was the chief of the police
22 station, yet Repanovic was the commander, what do you mean? What sort of
23 responsibilities did you understand Vitosevic to have as distinct from
24 Repanovic, whom you described as a commander?
25 A. As far as I understand these things, Vitosevic was more in charge
1 of the civilian personnel who worked with passports, ID cards, whereas
2 Commander Repanovic was in charge of the police proper.
3 Q. When you say "police proper," you mean police who did what type
4 of work?
5 A. I mean uniformed police officers.
6 Q. Now, I'd like to take you to the 26th of March, 1999. This was a
7 couple days after the NATO intervention commenced. Were you on patrol on
8 the morning of that day?
9 A. Yes, I was.
10 Q. Who, if anybody, were you on patrol with?
11 A. That day, we were four or five on patrol. We set out towards
12 Dzinovce because there were police officers there on a field mission. We
13 went there to take food to them, water, and ammunition.
14 Q. Did you return to Suva Reka?
15 A. Yes. After that, we returned and stopped outside the SUP
16 building in Suva Reka.
17 Q. About what time you stopped outside the police building in Suva
19 A. I don't know the exact time. It was a long time ago. I can't
20 remember the hour --
21 Q. Approximately.
22 A. -- but -- no, I don't remember.
23 Q. Yes, I know you will not be able to tell us precisely what time,
24 but can you just approximate, between what time and what time?
25 A. Well, for an hour or so, not longer.
1 Q. Yes. What I was trying to get at, can you just tell us
2 approximately? And please understand, we know after so long you can't
3 really be precise, but just between what time and what time was it that
4 you and your patrol stopped outside the police building in Suva Reka on
5 the 26th of March?
6 A. Around 11.00 perhaps.
7 Q. In the day?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. Let me get back to something I asked before. Who were the
10 other members of your parade -- your patrol? Could you name them?
11 A. Radovan Tanovic, Sladjan Cukaric, Miki Petkovic, and myself.
12 Q. Who was the person who was in charge of the patrol?
13 A. Radovan Tanovic.
14 Q. What was Cukaric's role in the patrol? In other words, did he
15 have any command responsibility in the patrol?
16 A. I'm not sure, but the two of them were superiors to me and
18 Q. Thank you. Were all of you reservists, or only some of you
19 reservists and some full, regular police officers?
20 A. Tanovic, Radovan Tanovic, and Sladjan Cukaric were actual duty
21 policemen, whereas Miki Petkovic and I were reserve policemen.
22 Q. Now, you said that you stopped outside the SUP building. Do you
23 know if it was a SUP
25 A. Well, it was the station of the interior, of internal affairs.
1 Q. Now, when you stopped outside that police station that day, did
2 you see any vehicles in the vicinity?
3 A. Yes, we did. Two lorries arrived in camouflage colour, and we
4 stood there watching. Out of the two lorries police officers came out,
5 some police officers who, as far as I remember, had arrived to Suva Reka
6 as assistance, and they set out towards the houses opposite the police
8 Q. Thank you. So that we can follow you now, I'd like to place
9 before you an aerial photograph of the area.
10 MR. STAMP: Could we bring up 02349, page 1.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
12 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before we look at
13 this photograph, could our learned friend Mr. Stamp tell us who made this
14 photograph, and when?
15 JUDGE PARKER: Can you help, Mr. Stamp?
16 MR. STAMP: Not at this moment. I could provide the information
17 to my friend in the break. I believe the photograph was made by
18 international agencies who entered Suva Reka and entered Kosovo after the
19 end of hostilities. But I think the real question here at this moment is
20 whether or not the witness can speak to the contents of the document or
21 the photograph.
22 JUDGE PARKER: The real question is whether this is a depiction
23 of Suva Reka as it was at the time or at some other time, if I understand
24 you correctly.
25 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm happy with
1 Mr. Stamp's answer. We can continue, and then perhaps the witness, too,
2 will give us an explanation.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Djurdjic.
4 Carry on, please, Mr. Stamp.
5 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honours.
6 Q. If you look at the photograph before you, could you tell us,
7 point out to us where the police station is located on this photograph?
8 I think you'll have to mark it, if I may ask that that be done. One
9 moment. One moment.
10 MR. STAMP: I think I'll ask him to mark the place where the
11 trucks were first with the letter A. I do that because I just want to
12 remain consistent with the way the markings were done in another case.
13 So I want the letters to be consistent. It's just for ease of reference
14 in the future.
15 Q. The trucks that you saw the policemen coming from, could you just
16 put a letter A as to where these trucks stopped?
17 JUDGE PARKER: The document in its unmarked form will be received
18 first, Mr. Stamp, and then in marked form. So we will receive this now.
19 THE REGISTRAR: This document number, Your Honours, with ID 02349
20 will be given P00269.
21 MR. STAMP:
22 Q. Please mark where the trucks were located with an A.
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. And could you put a cross or an X at the point where you were
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. Now, the police arrived in the trucks.
3 MR. STAMP: Before that, may I just indicate that what the
4 witness has put here looks more like a C with a cross in the middle of
6 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on, Mr. Stamp. We see the location.
7 MR. STAMP:
8 Q. Were the police arriving in the trucks led by any person in
10 A. Yes. We called him --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat what they
12 called the commander of the unit of the -- which arrived.
13 MR. STAMP:
14 Q. K83, can you repeat the name -- can you repeat what you called
15 the commander of the unit, please?
16 A. Cegar "jed".
17 Q. And did he arrive there?
18 A. Yes. He was standing facing the police station. He was standing
19 next to a jeep.
20 Q. Did he arrive in that jeep?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Could you put a letter B where he was.
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. And could you put a letter C where the police station was.
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. That's the police building that you've put the C there.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The lorries that the police came -- arrived in, how would you
4 describe them? Were they ordinary lorries, or were they armoured
6 A. Those were military trucks that had some additional work done on
7 them, such as armour on the sides, and they had no tarpaulin on top.
8 They were camouflage military trucks.
9 Q. I'd like you to just put an arrow in the vicinity of the letter
10 A, pointing to where the police that alighted the trucks went to, or
11 pointing to the direction of where the police that alighted the trucks
12 went to.
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. Now, did Cegar, the leader of the police who alighted the truck,
15 say anything?
16 A. Yes. As we were standing outside the police station, he came up
17 to the Assistant Commander Nenad Jovanovic, and Assistant Commander Nenad
18 Jovanovic wanted to salute back, according to regulation, as a superior
19 commander should be saluted; however, Cegar 1 started yelling at him and
20 said, What are you staring at? What are you waiting for? Go after these
21 men, who came to assist. And Assistant Commander Nenad Jovanovic then
22 just told us to move.
23 Q. In the translation I just heard, you referred to the commander of
24 these police units as Cegar 1. Earlier you had said "Cegar 'jed'." You
25 referred to him as Cegar 1; is that correct?
1 A. Yes. Cegar "jed".
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter heard "Cegar jedan," "jedan"
3 meaning one. Perhaps the witness can clarify.
4 MR. STAMP: I see.
5 Q. You're saying in Serbian that the commander was called Cegar 1?
6 A. Yes. That was his password at the police, his code-name.
7 Q. When you say his password and his code-name, what do you mean by
9 A. It's his secret identity code.
10 Q. Would it be used -- would it be used if you were calling him on
11 the radio?
12 A. Yes, on the radio.
13 Q. Let's get back to the events. Assistant Commander Jovanovic told
14 you to move. Where did your patrol move to?
15 A. We moved towards Rastane, straight to the house which had earlier
16 been the base for OSCE.
17 Q. I'd like you to mark on the map where your unit went to after
18 Cegar 1 shouted orders to Jovanovic. Just mark it with a D, where your
19 unit went to.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. Which building is that?
22 A. This is the OSCE building.
23 Q. Do you see a building on the map below that building?
24 A. Yes, I can.
25 Q. Did you go anywhere in respect to that building?
1 A. Since some policemen were already in the OSCE building, Cukaric
2 and Tanovic ordered me and Petkovic to go behind the house to provide
3 them with cover in case anyone would shoot at them because there was
4 shooting from all sides.
5 Q. So where did you and Petkovic go to? Could you mark the place
6 where you and Petkovic went to with the letter E.
7 A. I was here, and Petkovic was here, on the other side of the
9 MR. STAMP: The witness marked -- well, now he has marked a
10 letter E, indicating where he was, and an L, indicating where the other
11 police officer was.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 MR. STAMP:
14 Q. You said there was shooting. Do you know who was shooting?
15 A. Well, those policemen who had arrived to help were shooting at
16 those houses. There was shooting from all sides. Everything was
17 happening so quickly, like in a movie.
18 Q. So could you tell us what happened after you arrived to the
19 vicinity, after you arrived to the vicinity of that building behind the
20 OSCE house?
21 A. When we arrived at that house, there were four men behind the
22 OSCE building, that house, and Cukaric and Tanovic checked their IDs,
23 whereas the other two of us were on the left and on the right of the
25 Q. After Cukaric and Tanovic checked their IDs, what happened?
1 A. A woman, some children, and some elderly people came out of the
3 Q. Which house?
4 A. That house where Petkovic and I were standing on the sides, the
5 one marked with E and L.
6 Q. And did these women, children, and elderly go anywhere?
7 A. Since there was shooting all around, they huddled and ran
8 together in a tight cluster towards the shopping centre.
9 Q. About how many of them were there?
10 A. To the best of my recollection, there were 30 or 35 of them.
11 Q. When they ran in the direction of the shopping centre, what
12 happened after? Did Cukaric or Tanovic do or say anything?
13 A. Well, they told us to follow them, to see where these people
14 would go. But as we had already set out to follow these people, Cukaric
15 and Tanovic lined the four men against the wall of the house. We
16 continued to follow the people to the pizzeria where some people were
17 temporarily accommodated, and on the way two elderly people were injured,
18 hit in the legs. We returned and told Cukaric and Tanovic that those
19 people who had been in the OSCE house were now all in the pizzeria.
20 Q. Okay. Let's get a clarification, just to be sure. The women and
21 children ran from which house, the OSCE house that you marked with a D or
22 the house that you were posted at that you marked with an E?
23 A. There were only four people in the OSCE house, and they stayed
24 there, whereas from the house we were in they rushed out and went to the
1 Q. So I take it that the women and children rushed out of the house
2 marked E?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What happened to the four men that were lined up by Cukaric and
6 A. They were killed behind the house, behind the OSCE house.
7 Q. Just tell us what you saw happen to them.
8 A. They were facing the wall, their faces against the wall. They
9 were lined up, and then suddenly there was a burst of gun-fire, and they
10 were killed, all four of them, there on the spot.
11 Q. Who fired?
12 A. Tanovic and Cukaric.
13 Q. These four men, were they armed?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Were they in uniform?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You said you and Petkovic went after the women and children who
18 had gone in the direction of the shopping centre.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you saw some elderly people who had been injured. Could you
21 mark with a letter F where you saw the elderly people.
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. Well, you've marked the F -- the F you marked is on a building.
24 Were they in -- on the building or on the ground in the vicinity of the
1 A. They were on the ground. There's a passageway there, a tunnel,
2 and they were on the pavement there.
3 Q. Were they a man and a woman, or two women, or two men?
4 A. A man and a woman.
5 Q. And where had they been hit?
6 A. In the legs.
7 Q. From your experience and what you saw, what had they been hit
9 A. Well, from an automatic rifle, most probably.
10 Q. Will you mark the spot where they were? Is that the area of the
11 shopping centre as well?
12 A. I beg your pardon? I didn't understand you.
13 Q. You said that the persons -- maybe I should withdraw that and ask
14 a different question.
15 Could you, with a G, put the area of the pizzeria where the
16 women, children, and elderly ran to, put where it was.
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. Now, did you see them inside the pizzeria?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. Was the door to the pizzeria locked or open?
21 A. Well, I don't know. Probably someone had the key, one of them
22 had the key, since the pizzeria was closed on that day. But someone must
23 have had a key, and as they went inside, they locked themselves in from
24 the inside.
25 Q. How did you become aware of that?
1 A. I went to the pizzeria, and when I got there, I saw that they
2 were there and that the door was locked.
3 Q. And you said you returned with the other police officer to where
4 Cukaric and Tanovic were. What happened when you rejoined Cukaric and
6 A. Well, I was quite frightened. I found it difficult to calm down
7 because everything was happening very quickly and I wasn't feeling well.
8 But nearby there was a cafe of some sort, and Cukaric told me to go and
9 take some alcohol or something, to have a drink and sort of relax and
10 come to, to relax and feel better.
11 Q. Yes. Before Cukaric told you to get the drinks, did he discuss
12 what he was intending to do after that?
13 A. No. He didn't say anything. As I was going to the cafe to take
14 a drink, I passed by the old man and the old woman, and they were still
15 alive at that point. When I came back, they were dead.
16 Q. Do you know how they died?
17 A. Well, I didn't see it. I didn't see anything, but I just heard a
18 shot or shots, and when I came back I saw that Cukaric had a rifle in his
19 hands, and then we sat down to have a drink, the drink that I had
20 fetched. This was between the pizzeria and that other building where the
21 people were.
22 Q. When you came back after you heard the shot, the burst of fire,
23 and saw Cukaric with a gun or a rifle in his hand, where was he in
24 relation to the two now-dead old people?
25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
1 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my learned friend
2 Mr. Stamp says that the witness heard a burst of fire. The witness just
3 said he heard shooting. So could he ask his questions properly in-chief.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Djurdjic.
5 Mr. Stamp, it was "shot" or "shots" and you --
6 MR. STAMP: Indeed, Your Honour.
7 Q. After you heard these shots, where did you see Cukaric in
8 relation to the two elderly people that were killed?
9 A. He was moving around down there towards the pizzeria, between --
10 well, there's a tunnel here. It's not shown very well, but that's where
11 that sort of tunnel is, where we sat down to have that drink and to have
12 a bit of a rest.
13 Q. As you arrived back from the cafe with the drinks and you heard
14 the shots, how far was Cukaric from the two old people?
15 A. About 5 or 6 metres away.
16 Q. Do you know in what parts of their bodies they were shot?
17 A. Well, I saw just a shot to the head.
18 Q. After that, you said you went somewhere with him, all four of you
19 now, to have the drinks. Could you mark on the map with a letter H where
20 you stopped to have the drinks.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. And that is between two buildings, around the corner from the
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. After you had the drinks, what happened? Just describe to us
1 what happened after you drank the alcohol.
2 A. When we had the drink, Tanovic broke the window with his rifle
3 butt and threw a hand-grenade inside.
4 Q. Sorry, which window are you referring to?
5 A. The window to the pizzeria, where the people were, and those who
7 Q. And I'd like you to describe in your own words, slowly and
8 carefully, what happened when -- after Tanovic threw the grenade inside
9 the pizzeria where these people were.
10 A. Since I and Petkovic and Cukaric were standing round -- behind
11 the corner, around the corner, because of all the glass, the shattered
12 glass and the explosion and the shrapnel, to avoid being hit and injured,
13 all you could hear were cries and screams and moans and crying, and after
14 several minutes, a couple of minutes later - not even that much, maybe -
15 a second bomb was thrown in, hand-grenade was thrown in. And when things
16 had calmed down a bit, then they started shooting, Cukaric and Tanovic,
17 with a burst of gun-fire, through the shop window, the window to the
18 pizzeria. So they took turns in shooting until all went quiet and none
19 of the cries could be heard anymore.
20 Q. Who threw the second grenade into the pizzeria where the people
22 A. Cukaric.
23 Q. After you ceased hearing the cries of these people, what
24 happened? Did Cukaric or Tanovic instruct you to do anything?
25 A. Yes. Petkovic stayed there, stayed where he was at the corner,
1 and I crossed over to the opposite side, went past the pizzeria, and went
2 up to the main road where there was a kiosk in order to secure a place
3 because of the civilians and the other people, to prevent them from
4 passing by that way.
5 Q. And how long did you remain there?
6 A. We stayed there roughly about an hour and a half, perhaps two
7 hours. I don't remember exactly.
8 Q. Very well. While you were at the kiosk - and I should ask you to
9 mark it an M - you say you were there to prevent people from going to
10 where the shooting occurred. Just put an M where you stood.
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. The M is placed right next to the main road, I see. Did any
13 vehicle arrive there of any particular significance?
14 A. First of all, Dr. Boban arrived, Boban Vuksanovic, and
15 Djordjevic, Mirko Djordjevic.
16 Q. Who are these people?
17 A. Dr. Vuksanovic was a doctor, and he was in the civilian
18 protection during the war as some sort of commander for civilian defence;
19 and Djordjevic, Mirko, he was the TO commander.
20 Q. About how long after the shooting into the pizzeria and the time
21 you went to stand at the kiosk, on guard, did these two individuals
23 A. Well, it might have been 15 to 20 minutes.
24 Q. When they arrived, what happened? Did they do or say anything?
25 A. Dr. Boban Vuksanovic examined the bodies to see if they were all
1 dead. After that, a truck arrived from the direction of Prizren in order
2 to load up the bodies from the pizzeria.
3 Q. Where did the truck go to?
4 A. The first truck was loaded up with the bodies, and it went off
5 back to Prizren, or in that direction. Then a second truck arrived, and
6 that second truck also was loaded up, and it drove off in the direction
7 of Prizren too.
8 Q. These two trucks, where did they stop or where did they park in
9 order to be loaded?
10 A. You can't see it --
11 Q. Don't mark it. Don't mark it.
12 A. -- very well here.
13 Q. Tell us first, please. Tell us where they went to and stopped in
14 order to be loaded.
15 A. They stopped between this kiosk and the pizzeria. There's a
16 small pavement there, and the truck almost drove up to right in front of
17 the pizzeria.
18 Q. Now, who loaded the bodies from the pizzeria onto the truck?
19 A. That was -- well, they were elderly people in the civilian
20 defence or from the civilian defence, and there were some children, too,
21 who at that time were still not adults. They were still minors.
22 Q. So did they do it willingly or reluctantly? How did they come to
23 do it?
24 A. They didn't know what they were supposed to do. They were told
25 to collect up the livestock. So on that day, they didn't know what they
1 were supposed to do, but then they were called by Dr. Boban Vuksanovic to
2 do that. However, they didn't want to do it, and then Cukaric threatened
3 them and said that they were either going to load up the bodies or they'd
4 end up the same way, like the others who were killed.
5 Q. Apart from these people from the civil defence -- or before I
6 move on, these people who loaded the bodies, they arrived with the
7 trucks; is that correct? Do you understand what I'm asking? I'm asking,
8 the people who loaded the bodies, if they arrived on the trucks.
9 A. No. No, they didn't.
10 Q. How did they arrive?
11 A. They arrived in another truck that was going around collecting
12 livestock. It was a rather large truck, and they were going around
13 collecting up the cattle, the livestock - sheep, cows, pigs.
14 Q. Now, do you know somebody by the name of Jashar Berisha?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. Did you see him that day?
17 A. Well, yes. That day in the morning, he came to work at the
18 petrol pump.
19 Q. What work did he do there?
20 A. He tanked up the petrol at the petrol pump.
21 Q. Now, while you were waiting at the kiosk after the shooting in
22 the pizzeria, did you see him?
23 A. He was working that day, and then he was detained at the station
24 when the shooting was taking place around those houses, and when those
25 people were killed by the pizzeria, then he was driven in by Todor
1 Jovanovic. Todor Jovanovic brought him in his car. He brought him to
2 the pizzeria.
3 Q. Who is Todor Jovanovic?
4 A. He was the crime technician, something like that.
5 Q. Was he a member of the police force in Suva Reka?
6 A. Yes, but he worked in civilian clothes.
7 Q. Tell us now what happened to Jashar Berisha when Jovanovic
8 brought him to the vicinity of the pizzeria.
9 A. Dr. Boban, he called him to come over and see something, I don't
10 know, to see something; however, Jashar didn't want to get close up.
11 However, Cukaric got hold of him by his arm, pushed him away, and shot
12 him in the back once.
13 Q. Before Cukaric shot him, what was he saying? What was Jashar
14 saying when Boban -- when Dr. Vuksanovic spoke to him?
15 A. Well, he didn't want to come up close. He said he didn't deserve
16 it. He said, I don't deserve to be there. I can't remember the exact
17 words he said. He struggled.
18 Q. And after Cukaric shot him, what did they do with his body?
19 A. As far as I remember, he was loaded up, too, his body was loaded
20 up in the truck that went to Prizren.
21 Q. You said you remained there after the shooting for perhaps up to
22 two hours. After that, did you go anywhere?
23 A. As far as I remember, I think Cukaric drove me to the health
24 centre because I wasn't feeling well.
25 Q. You weren't feeling well in what way? What happened to you?
1 A. I was shattered. I felt sick, that kind of thing. I wasn't
2 feeling well. I had a difficult time of it.
3 Q. To this day, have you recovered from the illness, the feeling of
4 being shattered, having regard to what you witnessed?
5 A. You know how it is. Well, the film I saw is never interrupted.
6 Everything goes normally during the day, but when I go to sleep I
7 can't -- actually, I can't sleep. I don't sleep well, and I have
8 nightmares, and when I get up in the morning, I feel tired, as if I
9 hadn't slept the whole night. So that's what happens.
10 Q. The next day --
11 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, I'm taking a little bit longer than I
12 expected. I don't think I have much longer, but I wish to turn to the
13 events of the next day, and with three minutes left for this day, I
14 wonder if I could do it on the next day of court sitting.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Well, I'm afraid we can't go past 1.45 because the
16 courtroom has to be prepared for the next trial. I think it might not be
17 practical to move to a new subject matter now, so we could adjourn until
19 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour. And may I quickly ask that the
20 marked document be saved before anything happens to the markings.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Well, it can't be saved. It will have to be
22 exhibited in its present form.
23 MR. STAMP: Indeed, that's what I meant.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, it will be received.
25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00270, Your Honours.
1 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, we'll have to go in closed session
2 briefly for the witness to leave, but since we have two minutes, I wonder
3 if I could raise two housekeeping matters, which I don't think would be
4 more than a minute each.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. While that's happening, the court
6 staff will close the screens with a view to the witness leaving, and we
7 will then adjourn and resume on Monday at 2.15.
8 Now, you have two matters, Mr. Stamp?
9 MR. STAMP: Let me mention the least sensitive one first while
10 the witness is present.
11 On the 26th of February, the judgement in a related case is
12 scheduled to be delivered in the afternoon. We're also scheduled in this
13 case to sit on that afternoon. Your Honours, as it turns out, many of
14 the people who would be likely to be in court, in this court, in trial on
15 that afternoon are also persons who are involved in that case, and
16 although most times the delivery of a judgement, there is no need to call
17 upon counsel, but sometimes it is good to have in court persons who know
18 the details about issues of protective measures in particular that might
20 JUDGE PARKER: Can I anticipate your request and say that we are
21 having inquiries made to see whether this hearing can be moved to the
22 morning of the 26th of February. If so, that will be done. If not, we
23 will not sit in the afternoon so as not to interfere with the Milutinovic
25 MR. STAMP: I am very grateful, Your Honour.
1 Could the witness be discharged for Monday?
2 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
3 We have to adjourn now to continue on Monday. The staff here
4 will give you directions and assistance over the weekend, and we will
5 continue on Monday at 2.15. If you go now with the court officer, and
6 you'll be assisted further with arrangements over the weekend. Thank you
7 very much.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 [Closed session]
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.
7 to be reconvened on Monday, the 2nd day of
8 February, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.