1 Friday, 6 February 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.12 a.m.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. I'm sorry there was a delayed
6 start. Apparently there was an equipment failure with the recording
7 equipment. We are now ready for the witness who is giving evidence,
9 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, with your leave, if I may raise just
10 two matters very quickly, and I believe my friend Mr. Djurdjic has
11 another matter he'd like to raise before the Court.
12 Yesterday, Your Honours directed that we consult each other to
13 see if we could come to some agreements as to the order of witnesses next
15 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
16 MR. STAMP: We did, and I can confirm that we have agreed the
17 schedule in respect to next week, and that would be Liri Loshi followed
18 by Lizane Malaj. She had originally been scheduled to come at that point
19 and we had tried to put her for later, but we have now returned her to
20 her place as number 2 for next week, followed by John Sweeney. I think
21 that was the main concern of the Defence, that John Sweeney would not
22 come too early next week, and I think with that schedule he will come
23 much later in the week, and that would not be too inconvenient to the
24 Defence, and that will be followed by Krasniqi and Ramadani.
25 So that has been agreed upon, Your Honour.
1 The second matter --
2 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber would thank both counsel for that.
3 Hopefully with the revised schedule that has the concurrence of both
4 parties we'll be able to move with good speed. Thank you.
5 MR. STAMP: Indeed. The second matter I'd like to raise,
6 Your Honour, is the matter in respect to Liri Loshi. The Prosecution
7 would apply respectfully that his testimony begin on Monday, and for
8 these reasons. I think we would have a significant amount of time with
9 this witness today, and if his testimony commence on Monday, there will
10 certainly be a loss of time, but I don't believe it will be the entire
11 day, certainly not. So we will lose time.
12 Dr. Loshi arrived on Wednesday night. He arrived much later than
13 we expected, and he has had to settle in, firstly, which proved to
14 involve some amount of arrangements, and then he has to go through a huge
15 mass of material. He's a very meticulous person, a very meticulous
16 witness, and he not only has a lot of material from his testimony in the
17 Milosevic case but also in the mass case, which is really tremendous. He
18 has also brought some new material which was not available to him or to
19 the Prosecution on the last occasion when he came here, and I'll mention
20 a piece of that later.
21 We think, Your Honours, that he could be given an opportunity to
22 complete his preparations, and we also would like an opportunity to
23 discuss with him after he has finished with reading the material, what he
24 has brought, and to proof him in the normal way before he testifies, and
25 that, Your Honour, I am sure, and this is one of the real reasons why I
1 would like him to start on Monday, will lead to a more effective and
2 orderly presentation of the evidence, more efficiency and less clutter.
3 And I think in the end it would speed -- speed up proceedings, and would
4 be -- and would enure to the benefit of these proceedings, so I'd
5 respectfully ask if his testimony could commence on Monday, even if in
6 the short-term today we might lose some time, there might be a saving.
7 We know, Your Honour, if I might move on to some of the material
8 he brought, that he has also brought a video, a new video in respect to a
9 grave-site. That is being reviewed, and we may - I think we will - apply
10 that it be received in evidence, although it was not on the list. We'll
11 apply that it be put on the list and received in evidence. I think that
12 matter can be litigated on Monday when it arises, but it is new material,
13 and I think if we begin on Monday, it would also give the Defence some
14 time to review it so that their position on it could be more considered
15 when they express a position on it when we deal with it.
16 So those are the considerations I'd like Your Honour to bear in
17 mind, and I respectfully ask that we proceed with him on Monday instead
18 of today. Thank you very much, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Is there any objection to that proposal,
20 Mr. Djurdjic?
21 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. My
22 learned colleague Mr. Stamp has now conveyed our joint proposal to the
23 Trial Chamber, but as regards to the last section, the supplementary
24 evidence or exhibits that were submitted to us yesterday after 5 p.m.
25 I'm not mistaken, but there will be some discussion about that later. I
1 support the proposal made by the Prosecution for Mr. Liri Loshi to take
2 the stand on Monday because we would also like to make some checks in the
3 course of the next two days and to make some inquiries as to the origin
4 of the material and to obtain some information that would make it
5 possible for us to address the Trial Chamber before he takes the stand,
6 and if he were to take the stand today, we would be hampered. We could
7 not do that.
8 Now, I would like to raise another issue in this regard.
9 Your Honour, the Defence would like to express its great satisfaction
10 with the latitude it has been given in the cross-examination, and we will
11 do all we can to contribute to the expeditiousness of the trial. In the
12 cross-examination of Witness Mustafa Dragaj yesterday, I took some time
13 to verify his identity, his real last name. In the transcript that was
14 produced, the daily transcript that was produced in realtime as the trial
15 went on, I think that the discussion between Mr. Mustafa Dragaj and
16 myself is recorded properly, and when Ms. Kravetz announced the witness
17 and asked him his personal details, I think that details were recorded
18 properly in the transcript.
19 In light of my lack of experience before this Tribunal and the
20 problems that we had with the mistake that I made about the year when
21 Mr. Gjogaj's statement was made and when I wanted the transcript to be
22 corrected, then you instructed me that no corrections can be made but
23 that the intervention was recorded. I think that in the official
24 transcript, there are some corrections that are not the result of what
25 was actually going on at the trial yesterday, and I don't think that such
1 things should occur. If in the daily transcript the lady was able to
2 record everything correctly, then I don't think that in the official
3 transcript that we receive there should be some amendments or changes.
4 Let me just remind you.
5 At page 602 of the official transcript, paragraph 16, it
6 says "witness Mustafa Dragaj." In the daily transcript at page 50,
7 line 18, it says "Mustafa Draga." At page 603 it reads "Mustafa Dragaj,"
8 and in line 3 of page 51 of the daily transcript, it says "Mustafa
9 Draga." And now it reads "Mr. Dragaj," whereas in the daily transcript
10 at page 58, line 19, it now read "Mr. Draga." At page 612, line 17, it
11 says Mr. Dragaj, that's the official transcript that we received, and in
12 the daily transcript at page 60, line 20 it says "Mr. Draga."
13 Let me stress once again that I asked questions specifically to
14 ascertain the real last name of the witness, not to waste time, because
15 Mr. Dragaj has provided several statements and has testified several
16 times before this Tribunal and his last name was recorded as Draga. It
17 was only yesterday that his real name was recorded, Dragaj. That's why I
18 took some time to do it.
19 There are also some other changes also to the official transcript
20 in comparison to the draft transcript, which I think was correct, and I
21 simply want to bring this to your attention. Thank you.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Before you sit, Mr. Djurdjic, is there some
23 significant point in Defence whether the last name of the witness is
24 D-r-a-g-a-j or D-r-a-g-a? Is it that you believe there are two different
25 people, two different witnesses, two different statements, or not?
1 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I failed
2 to mention this. The actual last name of the witness is extremely
3 important for the Defence because now I can say this, Draga and Dragaj.
4 There are some of his relatives who were in the KLA, and I will put it to
5 him because Draga and Dragaj are one and the same last name, yet it is
6 presented as two different families. In annex F, you will see that some
7 people are listed as Draga and some as Dragaj. I'm not saying that they
8 are the same family. It's a large family. It has several branches, but
9 it is very important what his actual last name is, and this is why the
10 Defence first wanted him to state his last name, so that we all know
12 JUDGE PARKER: Do I understand the Defence concern in the end is
13 to show that the family name, D-r-a-g-a is really the same family as the
14 family name, D-r-a-g-a-j? Yes. Thank you.
15 Can I just say what little the Chamber knows about the matter
16 you're raising, Mr. Djurdjic, and I think if there is still a difficulty,
17 it will have to be explored further. First, I believe the Chamber agrees
18 to the motion of Mr. Stamp with you that we will not commence a new
19 witness after we have finished the evidence of the present witness today,
20 and the next new witness will commence on Monday.
21 With respect to transcript, the normal process is that as the
22 evidence is given live and under very considerable pressure, a recorder
23 here in court and at least one outside of court listening to the evidence
24 and the translation into English of it produce a running transcript.
25 When there is time later in the day, the tapes are listened to again, and
1 if it's found that there is some deficiency in what was first put down,
2 that is corrected. The corrections are made from the tape recording of
3 what was being said. Sometimes words are missed out. Sometimes
4 incorrect words are typed, and so on.
5 Of particular difficulty as the case is progressing and even when
6 the tape is checked later in the day are names, whether they are place
7 names, family names, or given names. That is because difficulties with
8 pronunciation, difficulties with spelling, particularly as one moves from
9 one language to another. The spelling of names and places changes. And
10 it's certainly so when you come to the names of people, not only between
11 languages, but when the name of a family or a person in one language is
12 translated, say, into English, there may be no precise exact translation,
13 and therefore there comes a variation.
14 Now, with this present -- with the witness Mustafa Dragaj, the
15 given name has varied in more than one way because in some cases it
16 finishes with an "F," in another with an "A," and yet another with
17 an "E." The surname is variously finishing in an "A" or with a "J."
18 Now, those differences have a lot to do with the translation from
19 Albanian into English of names which are rendered in one particular way
20 in the Albanian. They become evident if you look at the travel documents
21 of the witness and the official visas, et cetera, because his name is
22 produced on those variously in each of those ways.
23 So it is when you come to his statements and the evidence he's
24 given in previous trials, and there seems to be no question that they are
25 his statements and it is his evidence, and his name has been given
1 previously here in courtrooms before other Chambers, and yet the name has
2 come out with different spellings each time.
3 As long as we're happy that we have the right man here, and that
4 doesn't seem to be your concern, our own limited knowledge so far, and it
5 will be informed if necessary more by evidence, is that there would be no
6 distinction in family grouping between D-r-a-g-a and D-r-a-g-a-j. But
7 that's really speaking mainly from my experience having had in two
8 previous trials similar ethnicity issues about family groupings. But if
9 that issue is to be contested, we will hear evidence on it, but it's a
10 matter perhaps you may discuss even with Mr. Stamp because I could
11 imagine that it may not be an issue between the parties. We will see.
12 Now, I hope that will assist you somewhat, Mr. Djurdjic. It's
13 not that a live transcript is produced as people are speaking and then
14 later somebody comes along and edits it and corrects it to a new version.
15 It's just that the same people who record it in the hurry as it is spoken
16 at a more leisurely time sit down with the tape again and try and correct
17 and complete what has first been typed, and there will, therefore, at the
18 end of the day, be a transcript which is more complete and hopefully more
19 correct than that which was produced as the words were being spoken. And
20 if you then have a problem with what is recorded in the final transcript,
21 that can be looked at. The tapes can be played again, and it can be seen
22 whether the transcript is correct or not.
23 But I can well understand the problems of producing the first
24 name and the family name of this witness in the course of hearing it,
25 just as you will understand if you look at the transcript of the last
1 several days the number of different ways certain place names, certain
2 geographic villages or cities have been spelt in the course of trying to
3 produce in an English written form what the witnesses are saying.
4 Has that helped you to become more family with the procedures,
5 Mr. Djurdjic?
6 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The issue
7 was not the identity of the witness. It was not at issue at all. We
8 know that Mr. Mustafa Draga or Dragaj is one and the same person, the
9 person who was sitting here in front of us. That was not what I want to
10 raise. I merely wanted to draw your attention to another problem, and
11 that is that the running transcript produced in the course of the trial
12 in realtime was correct, whereas the official transcript that we received
13 was not. There were changes made to it that were now wrong.
14 The lady who sat here in the courtroom recorded everything
15 perfectly, but when the official transcript was done, changes were made
16 because the Defence is sure that in the first part until the
17 cross-examination the witness was named Draga, both in the official and
18 in the realtime transcript. The first time that he said that his name
19 was Dragaj was at the beginning of the cross-examination. But the
20 official transcript did not reflect what really occurred in the courtroom
21 because it now states Dragaj right from the beginning, and now it appears
22 that Defence was wasting time when, at the beginning of the
23 cross-examination, it asked questions about his actual last name.
24 The realtime version of the transcript was correct and not the
25 official transcript. That's what we say, and I do accept what
1 Ms. Kravetz said, that Mr. Mustafa Dragaj is from the municipality of
2 Skenderaj, and in the transcript it is stated that it is Skenderaj or
3 Srbica. Okay, yes, I understand why. Skenderaj is the Albanian name,
4 and I accept that maybe names should be translated also into Serbian. I
5 accept that because there are many bilingual names.
6 So I do accept the fact that Srbica was added next to Skenderaj.
7 That's what I put in my notes, that I understand, but I do not understand
8 why the official transcript was corrected in this manner.
9 JUDGE PARKER: I will have inquiries made about that,
10 Mr. Djurdjic. One reason can be an attempt to standardise the spelling
11 of names as they are spoken.
12 Could we go into private session for a moment.
13 [Private session]
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE PARKER: I think we've heard enough. We'll look into this
2 particular changing of the things that concern you, Mr. Djurdjic, and
3 find what may be the particular reason for that, but having spent now 35
4 minutes on these matters, I think we better get on with hearing some
5 evidence. Thank you.
6 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE PARKER: [Previous translation continues] ... witness,
9 [The witness takes the stand]
10 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, sir.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
12 JUDGE PARKER: I'm afraid they appear still to be falling off the
13 witness's ears, the ear phones, if you look.
14 You may have to open up the things and put it up over the
15 headwear. Thank you.
16 We're ready to continue this morning with your evidence. Thank
17 you for being here again. Could I remind you that the affirmation you
18 made to speak the truth here still applies.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no problem.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
21 Mr. Djurdjic, are you ready to continue?
22 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
23 WITNESS: MUSTAFA DRAGAJ [Resumed]
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Djurdjic: [Continued]
1 Q. Good morning, Mr. Mustafa.
2 A. Good morning.
3 Q. Thank God, it appears that are you in good health, and I would
4 like to ask you whether you are still active as the head of your
5 household and whether you still do farming work.
6 A. No. I don't do any more farming work because my left hand is
8 Q. Thank you. In 1999, is it true that one of your daughters lived
9 with you in your family?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You told us that your other daughter was married. Where did she
12 live? Who was she married to in 1992?
13 A. My daughter was married to Belush [phoen], but she lives in
15 Q. I asked you about 1999. What family was she married into in
17 A. My daughter was married to a family of Istok in Belush. She was
18 married much earlier before the war. She was over 20 years, maybe she
19 was 25 when she got married.
20 Q. Thank you. You said that there were Serb houses in Leocina.
21 Could you please tell us how much Serb houses were there, were and where
22 were they located?
23 A. There were about 12, 13 households, not more than that.
24 Q. Thank you. Were those houses shelled on the 25th and the 26th of
25 March, 1999, while you were in the village?
1 A. I didn't see whether they were shelled or not because the
2 Serbs -- the houses of the Serbs were behind my own house, so when I left
3 I didn't see what happened either to my house or to the house of the
5 Q. Thank you. And when you got back, did you see the Serb houses?
6 A. No, I didn't.
7 Q. Thank you. Did you perhaps know Stana Zigic?
8 A. No.
9 Q. And have you heard that she was kidnapped on the 19th of May,
11 A. No, I didn't hear anything. I have no knowledge about that.
12 Q. Thank you. Do you know when the Kosovo Liberation Army was
13 established, or when did you first hear of it?
14 A. I didn't know when it was established because I was not
15 interested in that.
16 Q. Yes, but when did you hear about the Kosovo Liberation Army for
17 the first time?
18 A. I didn't have any information that there was a KLA as such. I
19 wasn't interested in these things.
20 Q. Well, did you know maybe some people that were members of the
21 Kosovo Liberation Army?
22 A. I didn't know that.
23 Q. Thank you. Did you know Saban Dragaj?
24 A. I know -- I know him. He lives in Trevis [phoen] now. I've
25 known him for 30, 40 years.
1 Q. He was born in --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's remark: Could the counsel please
3 repeat the name of the place.
4 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. In Kladernica?
6 A. Mitrovic. Mitrovica.
7 Q. Was he a member of the Kosovo Liberation Army?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. And could you please tell me, did you see him in Izbica in
10 March 1999?
11 A. I didn't see him or anyone else during the time I was wandering
12 through the mountains there.
13 Q. What I'm asking you is about when you were in Izbica, between the
14 25th and the 28th. That is the period you specified, unless I'm
15 mistaken. Did you see him on the 30th or the 31st when you returned?
16 A. No. I never saw him either in Izbice or anywhere else.
17 Q. Thank you. Do you know Loshi Liri?
18 A. [Previous translation continues] ... know him. Yes, because he
19 was our doctor.
20 Q. Could you tell us where the health station at which he was
21 working was?
22 A. Runik.
23 Q. Who else was working with him?
24 A. I don't know who else worked with him. I only know Liri.
25 Q. Did you ever see Dr. Loshi wearing the KLA uniform?
1 A. I never saw him dressed in any uniform.
2 Q. Are you aware of the fact that he was a member of the KLA?
3 A. I don't know that. The only thing I know is that he was a
5 Q. Do you know Dragaj Demush?
6 A. Yes, I know him.
7 Q. Was he living in Leocina at the time?
8 A. Yes, he lives in Leqina.
9 Q. Throughout 1998 and 1999, did you ever see Dr. Loshi in Leocina?
10 A. No, because in 1998, most of the time I was staying in Mitrovica
11 with my wife.
12 Q. And what about between the time you returned and the start of the
14 A. No, I didn't.
15 Q. You say that you were in Mitrovica in 1998. Do you actually own
16 a house there?
17 A. No. I was at the house of our in-laws.
18 Q. Where were your sons at the time, I mean in 1998?
19 A. In 1998, two of my sons had gone to Germany. Two had been there
20 before. Two stayed in Montenegro
21 Q. Was there any fighting in your village in 1998?
22 A. No.
23 Q. So you know nothing about what was going on in your village and
24 the surrounding area since the time you left, do you?
25 A. I am not clear about your question. Do you mean 1998 or 1999?
1 Q. I mean 1998.
2 A. No, there was no house burned in my village in 1998.
3 Q. Thank you. Nevertheless, my question was, did you know anything
4 about what was going on in your village and the surrounding area during
5 the time you were at Kosovska Mitrovica?
6 A. No, I don't know what happened there when I was in Mitrovica
7 because I wasn't there and I wasn't interested.
8 Q. Do you know where the village of Lausa
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. What is the distance between Lausa and Leocina?
11 A. I don't know. When you walk by foot, it's about three hours, I
13 Q. Thank you. Are you familiar with the name Habit Haziraj? He's a
14 man from Lausa.
15 A. No, I don't know him. I never heard of him.
16 Q. Thank you. Did you see Dr. Loshi in Izbica on the 30th of March,
18 A. The 30th? No.
19 Q. I think you said you arrived in Izbica on the 31st of March.
20 A. On the 31st of March, we buried the corpses, but I went there on
21 the 26th of March.
22 Q. Thank you. Did you see Dr. Loshi on the 31st of March in Izbica
23 as you went about burying the bodies?
24 A. Yes, he was there.
25 Q. What was he doing at the time? Do you know?
1 A. I didn't see what he was doing. We were carrying the corpses,
2 the coffins and digging up the graves, so I don't know what he was doing.
3 I only remember that he was in civilian clothes. I have never seen him,
4 actually, in uniform. I only know that he worked as a doctor.
5 Q. Thank you. What about the 25th of March, 1999? Was there any
6 fighting in or around your village, sir?
7 A. Yes. In Padalishte and in our village, there was shelling coming
8 from Belinca, in the direction of my house.
9 Q. Do you know who was shelling who?
10 A. Who else other than the Serb army and police, you think?
11 Q. You didn't see who was doing the actual shelling, did you?
12 A. They shell from higher up and from a distance, and nobody stays
13 in the way of a gun-fire.
14 Q. Were the shells coming from the different sides, from all over?
15 A. On the 25th, the shelling came only from the direction of
17 Q. What is the distance between Belinca and Leocina?
18 A. To tell you the truth, I don't know. I believe some
19 4 kilometers. My house is on a hill, so you can see from there, and even
20 today some bricks are still destroyed because of that shelling coming
21 from Belinca.
22 Q. But, Mr. Loshi [as interpreted], Belinca is not in Srbica
23 municipality, isn't it?
24 A. No. Belinca is in Istog, Istog municipality.
25 Q. Thank you. What about the distance between Leocina and Citak, if
1 you walk?
2 A. It would take you about an hour.
3 Q. Am I right to say that Citak is north of Leocina?
4 A. I don't know, but I think you're right. It's near the asphalt
5 road to Peja.
6 Q. That's right, Mr. Mustafa. There is an asphalt road, the one
7 leading to Pec and from there to Srbica. And what about the distance
8 between Leocina and Izbica, again, on foot?
9 A. 30 minutes tops, maybe less.
10 Q. Mr. Mustafa, if I look at the map, Citak must be at least twice
11 as close to Leocina as it is to Izbica.
12 A. Citak and Izbice seems to be at the same distance to me, at
14 Q. Mr. Mustafa, I have a map in front of me, OTP exhibit. It's a
15 65 ter exhibit, I think 615, and the page number is 30.
16 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] If we could please bring that up.
17 [In English] I'm sorry. [Interpretation] Wrong page number, I'm sorry.
18 The correct page number is 17. Could we please zoom in some more. Thank
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot read maps.
21 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Stop right there, please. Can you
22 zoom in on Leocina, further up. Yes, yes. That's right. And then down
23 from there, Leocina -- there it is now, yeah. No, no, no. Lower down.
24 This is too far down. We have to get a view of Srbica. Right. Stop.
25 And then from Srbica, upper left corner, diagonally towards this square
1 over there. No, no, no, with the arrow between --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please speak into the microphone.
3 Thank you.
4 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Leocina. Leocina. Right. A bit
5 further up from there, thank you.
6 Your Honours, I don't know if the witness can actually see this.
7 Maybe we could get him to mark these locations on the map for us, the
8 ones that I've just mentioned.
9 JUDGE PARKER: He's already mentioned to you, I think you were
10 distracted, that he can't read maps.
11 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, if I may add, as well, that the
12 witness had indicated before court that he has an eyesight problem, so
13 he's unable to identify things on the screen. I had already alerted my
14 colleagues from the Defence to this problem.
15 JUDGE PARKER: I don't think we're going to get very far with
16 this witness with a map on a screen, I'm sorry to say, Mr. Djurdjic. Is
17 your point simply the distance by -- as shown on the map between the
18 villages that you've named?
19 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] That is precisely what I was about
20 to say, assuming that the witness himself would say that, not the
21 Prosecutor, although the witness himself did, as a matter of fact, say
22 that he couldn't read maps. But I do want the Chamber to get an idea of
23 the distances between these villages, and then there's the village of
24 Turicevac. If we lower the map further down, if we pull it down a
25 little, this is along the Srbica-Klina road, just for you to get an idea
1 about the set-up of the area and where all these places are that the
2 witness has been talking about. You see Turicevac, further down, south
3 of Izbica, southeast, you might say Izbica, Vojnik, Turicevac.
4 Meaning -- just for you to get an idea. Just for you to get an idea,
5 that's why I wanted this map shown, this section of the map.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, yes. We see this. You will
7 appreciate, of course, that the witness, from his experience, is really
8 speaking of distance on foot, and you need a topographical map to see
9 whether you are climbing up very steep hills and going down again, moving
10 between two villages, whereas perhaps you're walking on roughly level
11 ground between two other villages, which is a fact that would be well
12 important to somebody walking on foot.
13 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I agree.
14 I do think that distances are very important, regardless of the lie of
15 the land. As far as the map is concerned, indeed, it doesn't exactly
16 show what the terrain is like.
17 Q. My next question is for Mr. Mustafa. Mr. Mustafa, why did you
18 head south instead of heading north and trying to reach the Srbica-Pec
19 road, which is an asphalt road - it's more urbanised, you might say -
20 since you found yourself running from the shells.
21 A. I was trying to escape the danger. I was trying to survive, and
22 I couldn't go there because there were tanks in that direction.
23 Q. How did you know there were tanks?
24 A. There were tanks at Gushanica. I've seen them.
25 Q. How long would it take to walk from Gusanica to Leocina?
1 A. On foot, it will take you about half an hour, to Izbice.
2 Q. Mr. Mustafa, I'm asking you from Leocina, not to Izbica.
3 A. I'm not a driver and I don't know how long it will take you from
4 Leqina to Gushanica, but those who were driving those vehicles may know.
5 Q. Mr. Mustafa, I don't know what the problem is. I asked you and I
7 Leocina," and not drive, since you made it sufficiently clear for our
8 purposes that you would normally walk to these villages. So my question
9 was, how long would it take to you walk from one place to the other?
10 A. It depends on the ground, on the terrain. Usually to Izbice, it
11 wouldn't take me longer than half an hour, for example.
12 Q. I'm not sure if you understand what my question was about. How
13 long would it take you to walk from Leocina to Gusanica? In terms of
14 time, how long? How much time?
15 A. I don't understand your question about Gushanica.
16 Q. Mr. Mustafa, you say you saw tanks at Gusanica. I'm asking you,
17 how long would it take you to walk from Gusanica to your own village,
18 Leocina? That is my question.
19 A. I don't understand your question at all.
20 Q. Mr. Mustafa, say you normally take an hour to walk from Leocina
21 to Izbica. Conversely, how long would it take you to walk from Leocina
22 to Gusanica?
23 A. The tank was at Izbice, and it took me half an hour to get there,
24 to Izbice.
25 Q. So from Leocina, you were able to see that there was a tank at
1 Izbica, right?
2 A. I didn't see it from Leqina. I saw it from Izbice.
3 Q. Mr. Mustafa, you say that you saw two tanks at Gusanica. My
4 question to you was, as long as you're willing to answer it, of course,
5 how long will it take you to walk from Leocina to Gusanica?
6 A. There is no village called Gushanica. As I said earlier, I saw
7 these tanks at Izbice where the massacre took place, which I survived. I
8 never went to the asphalt road.
9 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we please rewind the
10 transcript to that reference that the witness made to the two tanks that
11 he saw.
12 Q. Mr. Mustafa, can you now tell me again where it was that you saw
13 the two tanks on the 25th of March?
14 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, I think that the witness has been
15 asked the same question several times, and he has already answered this
17 JUDGE PARKER: There is unresolved a difference between what was
18 recorded as to the position of the tanks and what the witness is now
19 saying, and Mr. Djurdjic may properly explore that.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your question was not about the
21 25th of March. It was about the 28th of March when I saw these tanks.
22 The lawyer is asking me different questions.
23 JUDGE PARKER: I suspected that might be the answer, but it's now
24 become clear. The witness, in dealing with your question earlier, was
25 not speaking of the 25th of March when he saw tanks.
1 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I asked a question about the
2 shelling, and the witness answered that he saw two tanks on the 25th. I
3 didn't even know that he would mention those tanks, and then I asked him
4 where the tanks were, and he said they were in Gusanica, so my next
5 question was the distance between Leocina and Gusanica.
6 Q. So we're not talking about the 28th of March, 1999, Mr. Mustafa.
7 We're talking about the 25th. Could you please tell me whether you saw
8 tanks on the 25th or not.
9 A. On the 25th of March, I didn't see any tanks. I was in my house.
10 There was shelling going on from the direction of Belinca. This is how I
11 understood your question, that you were actually asking me about the
12 28th of March.
13 Q. Thank you. Did anyone tell you that you were to go to Izbica?
14 A. Nobody told us to go there. We went there out of our own free
16 Q. Well, how come that all of you went to Izbica of your own free
17 will and that so many people went there, and there were other places
18 where people could seek shelter if there was any fighting going on that
19 actually made you leave?
20 A. We thought that that was the best place for shelter, and it was
21 the nearest of all.
22 Q. Mr. Mustafa, if I understand what you're saying correctly, your
23 sons- and daughters-in-law left, you didn't, for Izbica as early as the
24 26th of March, 1999?
25 A. That's correct.
1 Q. Why did they leave for Izbica?
2 A. Why? Because the shelling started, and they started to burn the
3 area near the school at Leqina. They were forced to leave.
4 Q. They went to Izbica in daytime?
5 A. They went in the morning, and myself, I went to Izbice in the
6 afternoon, late afternoon around 5.00.
7 Q. They left while the village was being shelled; is that correct?
8 A. They were shelling, they were burning, and they were coming
9 closer to Leqina, as far as burning is concerned.
10 Q. And you were in the basement of the house during that time?
11 A. On the 26th, I was in the basement of my house with my wife. We
12 were trying to bake some bread, and at around 5.00 we left, too, because
13 they were coming closer and closer.
14 Q. From what direction, and who was coming closer, and where did you
15 see them from?
16 A. They were coming closer from the direction of Citak, and they
17 were entering Leqina. You can see that from my house very clearly
18 because my house is on a hill.
19 Q. How far were they from you, from where you were when you saw
21 A. To tell you the truth, sir, perhaps less than a kilometre.
22 Q. That was the morning. You saw them in the morning when they were
23 one kilometre away from your house?
24 A. When they started the burning, in the morning. I don't know the
25 time, what the time was exactly, but it was maybe 10 or 11.00 in the
2 Q. Thank you. And they didn't arrive at your house until 5 p.m.
3 which was when you left for Izbica; is that correct?
4 A. I don't know when they got to my house. They were burning on the
5 way, and we just left and we didn't look back what was going on.
6 Q. Mr. Mustafa, my question was, by 5.00 when you left for Izbica,
7 the forces that you saw were not yet at your house. They had not yet
8 reached your house.
9 A. No. They didn't get to my house. Had they got to my house, they
10 would have killed me because they had to pass through the Dervisi
11 households to get to my house.
12 Q. The forces were in combat, and that's why they couldn't reach
13 your house, Mr. Mustafa, and that's how long it took them to pass the one
14 kilometre from the place where you saw them to your village. Is that
16 A. This is not correct. They had nobody to fight. What took them
17 long was that they were burning the houses, all of them, one by one.
18 Q. Thank you. When you left for Izbica, would you tell me, the
19 Leocina-Izbica road, it's a dirt road; am I right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And the road goes from the north when you go from Leocina to
22 Izbica; is that correct?
23 A. Yes. It comes -- the road comes from the outskirts of Leqina.
24 Q. Can you describe the place where you were when you went from
25 Leocina to Izbica and you encountered those other people there in Izbica?
1 A. It was a meadow, a 2-hectare meadow. It was filled with people.
2 It was the 27th of March. Everybody was on the meadow. Whoever had a
3 house in Izbice stayed inside. On the 27th, it was raining the whole
4 night, and we were outside in the meadow. Those who had houses in Izbice
5 were in their houses, but in the morning they left their houses, too, and
6 joined us in the meadow. The Serbian forces on the 27th surrounded
7 Izbice, but they still didn't reach the location where we were.
8 Q. My question was merely for you to confirm that this is the meadow
9 in front of the entrance into Izbica as you come in from Leocina. Can
10 you please just tell me yes or no?
11 A. No. You have upper Izbice, and the meadow is in the end of
12 Izbice. It is near the cemetery.
13 Q. Let's try this way if we can. The road that leads from Leocina
14 to Izbica, is it by the road where you buried those bodies on the 31st of
16 A. The Leqina to Izbice road, first of all, comes to the upper
17 Izbice, then goes through the centre of the village and then to the
18 meadow; and at the end of this meadow is the place where we buried the
19 corpses. It's when you go in the direction of Turicevc, this place is on
20 your right-hand side.
21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mustafa. Now you've managed to explain this to
22 us, what I needed. I don't want to be showing you photographs, but the
23 place where you were or the road from Leocina cannot be seen on the
24 photographs. Thank you.
25 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do believe that
1 this is a good time for a break.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Very well, Mr. Djurdjic. We'll have the first
3 break now. We'll break for half an hour and continue the evidence at
5 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
8 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. Mr. Mustafa, the first time that you gave statement was on the
10 11th and the 13th of September to the investigators of this Tribunal, and
11 you make no mention of the military there. Why did you then tell us
12 yesterday that the Serbian forces consisted of the military and the
14 A. Whatever I knew, I said, the army and the police, because if
15 there were no army and police, then why should the investigator ask me in
16 the first place?
17 Q. Mr. Mustafa, in your statement from November 1999, you speak only
18 about the police. Is it true that in Izbica on the 28th of March, 1999
19 there was only the police present?
20 A. There were army and police, but in the group where I was, and
21 they started to shoot us, there were only police.
22 Q. Could you please answer my question. In your statement from
23 November 1999, you never mentioned the military at all. Is that true?
24 A. Maybe a mistake has been made because I know that I mentioned
25 both the army and the police.
1 Q. Who made the mistake, in your opinion?
2 A. The person who took the statement, maybe, because once it was in
3 English, once in Albanian. It took a lot of work to do that.
4 Q. I'm sorry. Did you give your statement in English?
5 A. There was an interpreter there.
6 Q. Well, were there any problems as you were giving that statement?
7 A. I don't know that there was any problems.
8 Q. Was the statement read back to you once it was drafted or,
9 rather, interpreted into Albanian?
10 A. Yes. They read it out to me.
11 Q. And you agreed with what was read back to you?
12 A. Yes. I accepted it.
13 Q. And that statement contains all the things that you said to the
14 people that you spoke to. Is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And after that, you signed every page of that statement,
17 regardless of the problems that you have with writing?
18 A. Yes, I signed.
19 Q. During the proofing session for your testimony here in - just a
20 moment - 2000 -- let me just go through your additional statement. In
21 August 2006, you were proofed but you didn't mention the military in the
22 additional statement.
23 A. As far as I know, I have mentioned it, but you know very well
24 that the army was there. All the world knows that, not only me.
25 Q. Mr. Mustafa, I was not there. I don't know that, but you were
1 there, and you did not mention the military in the statement that you
2 gave when your recollection was the freshest, in November 1999, some
3 eight months or even less after the events that you're testifying about.
4 But -- well, that page contains seven or eight pages, and you never, ever
5 mentioned the Army of Yugoslavia or Serbia.
6 A. Maybe mistakes have been made, but all the world knows that the
7 Army of Yugoslavia
9 Q. Sir, can I then conclude that some years after the event, your
10 recollection is actually better than it was a shorter time after the
12 A. Memory becomes weaker. One forgets, especially after suffering
13 traumas and massacres.
14 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, I would like to go back to the shelling,
15 and I have to show you Exhibit D001-3247.
16 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] If we could have it on the screen.
17 That's the transcript from the 1st of July, 2002. That's the Milosevic
18 case, page 737, lines 21 through 24.
19 Q. You say here, I didn't see the Serb forces shelling.
20 A. From which direction didn't I see them?
21 Q. Very well.
22 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to move on to
23 Exhibit D001-3247. I'm sorry, 3277. That's the Milutinovic case,
24 page 2392, lines 24 and 25, and page 293, lines 1, 2, 3, and 4 --
25 Q. When the Defence counsel asked you, You couldn't see the people
1 who were shelling you while the shelling was going on. You said, No, but
2 I heard the noise caused by the shelling. The shells landed in our
3 fields, and how could anyone dare to look at the persons shelling you?
4 A. Yes, that's correct. The shelling and the flames from burning.
5 Q. But you did not see that, and you don't know who fired the shells
6 because you didn't see it. Is that correct?
7 A. Sir, how can you go there and see who's firing? You have to flee
8 and not be there, stand on the way of the gun-fire.
9 Q. That's absolutely true, but what you say is based on your
10 assumptions because you didn't really see that.
11 A. But who else other than the Serb army and police would have
12 shelled? This is a fact. All the world knows and not only myself who
13 was there and saw it.
14 Q. Mr. Mustafa, if I were to tell you that the KLA had artillery,
15 what would you say to that?
16 A. I don't know that the KLA has fought at all because if the KLA
17 had fought, then the Serbian army and police wouldn't have done what they
18 did, committing massacres. I didn't see the KLA at all fighting or any
19 troops by the KLA.
20 Q. You never saw the KLA at all, right?
21 A. The day of the burial, three or four persons I saw, when we
22 buried these persons in Izbice.
23 Q. Thank you. Yesterday, you said you had decided to go to Izbica
24 because you believed it would be safer there because there were no Serbs
25 around and the mountains were near. Is that true?
1 A. Yes, that's correct.
2 Q. Were there any Serbs in Izbica?
3 A. There weren't Serbs in Izbice. There were no Serb households,
4 but there were police and army.
5 Q. Thank you. Why did it matter that the mountains were nearby?
6 A. The mountains were important because we could go to the
7 mountains, take shelter there, and protect ourselves from the danger. If
8 I went in the mountains, I wouldn't have been subjected to the massacre I
9 was subjected to.
10 Q. My question was, do you know who was in the mountains?
11 A. I don't know. Everyone fled for himself.
12 Q. Mr. Mustafa, there were members of the KLA in the mountains. Am
13 I right?
14 A. I didn't see anyone.
15 Q. Your sons were in the mountains, and they were together with the
16 KLA, weren't they?
17 A. No. No. My sons were there for themselves. They were not
19 Q. Mr. Mustafa, your sons left the family in order to join the KLA
20 in the mountains and stay with them in the mountains, whereas you
21 remained behind to look after your family. Isn't that true?
22 A. This is not true. As I said, my sons went to find shelter, each
23 for themselves. They didn't go there to join the KLA.
24 Q. Mr. Mustafa, they didn't go to Srbica, to Kosovska Mitrovica, to
25 Klina, to Istok, or indeed to Pec. They went to the mountains, and they
1 were armed. Is that not true?
2 A. No, this is not true. They didn't have any weapons, nor did they
3 join the KLA. After a while, they went to Montenegro and to Albania
4 Q. Thank you. You tell us that you served in the army. I'm not
5 stating the year because I might get it wrong. Did you learn Serbian?
6 Are you fluent in Serbian? Did you learn it while you were in the army?
7 A. I learned a little, not much, but I have forgotten. A long time
8 has passed since then.
9 Q. After you left the army, you no longer used Serbian. Is that
11 A. I didn't leave the army. I completed the entire two years. Then
12 I was released from the army.
13 Q. Yes. Yes. We know that, Mr. Mustafa, but after you were
14 released from the army, you no longer spoke Serbian, and as a consequence
15 you forgot the little you had learned, right?
16 A. I didn't speak Serbian.
17 Q. And you no longer understood Serbian. Am I right?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Can you then explain how it was that you understood the Serb
20 forces on the 28th of March in Izbica, what exactly they were saying when
21 they were speaking in Serbian?
22 A. I didn't understand anything. Even if they had spoken Albanian,
23 I wouldn't have understood anything. When they put us in that line and
24 ordered us to go up the mountain, planning to shoot us, I wouldn't have
25 understood anything.
1 Q. Thank you. Is it not true that after all, you don't know what
2 members of the Serbian forces were saying on the 28th of March, 1999
3 when you were in Izbica?
4 A. It is true. I only understood that they cursed because other
5 friends in the group told us -- this to us, and I saw when they were
6 throwing our caps on the ground. They were cursing Thaqi and Rugova.
7 Q. Thank you. But you did not understand anything else that they
8 were saying; isn't that true?
9 A. My friends there said to me that they are cursing us.
10 Q. Thank you. This man named Thaqi they mentioned, could you tell
11 me who he is?
12 A. Hashim, or Rugova, who now is no longer alive.
13 Q. So who exactly was Hashim Thaqi? What exactly did he do?
14 A. I don't know what he was and what he did then. I only know that
15 now he's a prime minister.
16 Q. What about 1999? What did he do in 1999?
17 A. I don't know. I don't know what he did. I've never met him.
18 Q. Well, then, it wouldn't have meant anything to you, would it, the
19 fact that they were mentioning Thaqi?
20 A. No. I didn't know him. I've seen him on television, now.
21 Q. Mr. Mustafa, bringing up Thaqi would not have necessarily
22 constituted an insult at the time, would it?
23 A. They know better what they said. I don't know.
24 Q. And what about 1999? Mr. Rugova, do you know what he did at the
1 A. I don't know what he did, but I've heard about him.
2 Q. Can I therefore conclude that the reference to Mr. Rugova was in
3 no way meant to be an offense?
4 A. They know what they said. They know whether it was an offense.
5 Q. Thank you. Mr. Mustafa, yesterday on two occasions you said that
6 there were no able-bodied men out in that meadow. May I ask you this:
7 What exactly would you consider a defining criterion for an able-bodied
9 A. Yes. If they were young, they would have taken to the mountains
10 to escape from being killed and wouldn't have been killed as they were.
11 Q. Mr. Mustafa, please answer my question. Yesterday, on page 607,
12 paragraph 20, you said that among the men in that meadow, there were no
13 able-bodied men of military age, no more than two, perhaps. The younger
14 ones were all in the mountains. That's what you said, and I'm asking
15 you, who would you consider an able-bodied man of military age?
16 A. Young people are of military age, not the older people.
17 Q. Thank you. Are you aware of the fact that anyone up to 65 years
18 of age is liable to military conscription?
19 A. No, I don't know.
20 Q. Oh, you don't, but will you take my word for it? I was acting
21 once as Defence counsel for an Albanian because of blood vengeance and a
22 triple murder, 73 years of age, and another one for blood vengeance for
23 double murder, aged 68, and both had used rifles in the perpetration of
24 their crimes.
25 A. I can take your word, but what are you saying to me, that what
1 these people have done, anyone can do? This is not good. Even if you
2 are 80 years old and you have a weapon, you can kill someone if you want
4 Q. Thank you. So military age and the definition of an able-bodied
5 man depends on your health, on your physical condition; that's what it
6 depends on, doesn't it?
7 A. You're right. When we went to complete our military service,
8 first thing they did was to check our health and whether we were able to
9 serve. If you are not able, they would not accept you in the army.
10 Q. Mr. Mustafa, I didn't mean the regular military term. I meant
11 after that, regardless of one's age, depending on one's mental and
12 physical condition. That's what it depended on, didn't it, whether one
13 could be active in a military sense or not.
14 A. I don't know that. When you're old, the army doesn't need you.
15 Q. But if you're willing, you can still join, can't you? You can
16 still spend time with the army and do whatever you can. Is that not
18 A. Everything has its own time. A soldier should be of a young age,
19 not old.
20 Q. Thank you. I will now be sharing with you some information from
21 attachment -- or annex F of the indictment. We have a total of
22 111 persons named in that annex; 20 of them under 50 years of age,
23 13 under 60 years of age, and 25 persons under 65 years of age. There
24 were another 11 persons whose age was not ascertained. Aren't all these
25 young people?
1 A. These all thought that they would not be killed. Had they known
2 that they would be killed, they would have gone to the mountains.
3 Q. Thank you. I've given you this figure, not taking into account
4 the persons whose age could not be ascertained. Under the rules, 58 of
5 those men were able-bodied and of military age.
6 I would like to move on to a different question now. You say,
7 sir, that on the 31st of March, you counted the buried bodies, and the
8 total added up to 147. Did you personally count the bodies, sir?
9 A. I tried to count them. I might be mistaken with the figure.
10 Q. You must have been wrong. I just want to know whether it was you
11 who did the counting itself or whether it was someone else who counted
12 the bodies.
13 A. Many people were counting the bodies. I tried to count them,
14 too, to the extent that I could.
15 Q. All right. You say that members of the KLA were involved in the
16 burial as well. Can you state their names for me, please? Who exactly
17 was there?
18 A. I don't remember their names, but I know that three or four were
19 there. They were dressed in uniforms. I only remember Sadik Xhemajli's
21 Q. Yes, but do you remember Rexhep Naim? Does that name ring a
23 A. I don't know this person.
24 Q. Very well. Do you remember that anyone drew up a list on a piece
25 of paper containing the names of the persons who were buried?
1 A. I thought that Sadik was compiling this list and doing the
3 Q. Right. Regardless of the actual figure, do you agree with me
4 that not only the bodies found in the meadow were buried but also those
5 found in other places, for example, in the woods?
6 A. There were people killed in the mountains too. Those who had
7 survived, they would crawl to the mountains, and they had killed them as
8 they were crawling to the mountains. Hajriz Draga, too, had crawled to
9 the mountains, but he died there. He didn't survive.
10 Q. Sir, I don't want to get tied down to Draga, but there were other
11 persons whose bodies who were found in the woods and they were also
12 buried in that field specified by one of your fellow citizens. Is that
14 A. In that place, people who were killed on that day were buried.
15 Hajriz Draga and Sadik Hoti, they crawled to the mountain, and that's
16 where they died.
17 Q. Very well. What about the 28th of May, 1999? Did you see the
18 exhumation that was in progress or not?
19 A. Yes. I saw this from the hill. Before they came to exhume the
20 bodies, they shelled, and then they came and started exhuming the bodies.
21 They didn't finish all this work in one day. It took them four or five
23 Q. Was there any fighting before one could reach Izbica?
24 A. There was never fighting in Izbice. Not a single gun-shot was
25 fired in Izbice. There was no KLA presence in Izbice, no KLA check-point
1 in Izbice, and that's why we went there, because we thought it was safe
3 Q. Very well. Your statement dated November 1999, the one you made
4 to the investigators, contains not a single reference of the exhumation.
5 A. They didn't ask me about this at that time. During the second
6 trial, they asked me about the bodies. During the Milosevic trial, we
7 only spoke of the massacre.
8 Q. Therefore, your recollection was much clearer back in 2006 than
9 it might be now -- than it might have been back in 1999.
10 A. The things that I experienced, I went through, I remember them
12 Q. Sir, you did not in fact see the exhumation that was in progress.
13 Is that not a fact?
14 A. I saw the exhumation from the hill. If this was not the case, I
15 wouldn't have mentioned it.
16 Q. Sir, you only heard about the exhumation, did you not? Yet now
17 you are trying to have us believe that this was first-hand observation on
18 your part; are you not?
19 A. I did see them with my own eyes. The army and the police were
20 there, and you could see them from the hillside. You could see them very
21 well, where the bodies were, and on that day when the shelling was taking
22 place, I saw the police -- the Serb police and army.
23 Q. Thank you. Just a minute. I'm trying to locate the transcript
24 reference that I'm about to show you. It's about this very issue, and I
25 hope that I can pinpoint the location fast enough.
1 But before we go there, do you agree that the forces arrived in
2 broad daylight?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Nothing was secret, was it?
5 A. No, there was nothing secret. They excavated the bodies. That's
6 what they came for. You know very well how bodies are exhumated. These
7 are a living witness of what happened, and they didn't even find half of
8 the bodies.
9 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have Exhibit
10 D 001-3277. This is a portion of the transcript from the Milutinovic
11 trial. The date is the 25th of August, 2006. The relevant page is 2364,
12 paragraphs 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5.
13 Q. You were asked whether you saw the exhumations in progress, and
14 your answer was, No, we didn't because first they had shelled the area,
15 and then after that they exhumed those bodies. We knew from the day that
16 they shelled the location that this would happen. They exhumed the
17 bodies during the day because they stopped working overnight. When they
18 took the bodies away, I saw with my very own eyes that not a single body
20 A. I said that I was at the event, but I could see them when I was
21 up on the hill. And when I was up there, I could see the bulldozers, and
22 then they -- the bulldozer had covered over the area, so there was --
23 nothing remained there.
24 Q. 20 -- at page -- let me just check whether it's the same
25 transcript. At page 2391, paragraph 7, you say that Gani saw that, and
1 you previously said that you personally did not see that.
2 A. [Previous translation continues] ... to. I said that I saw it
3 from up on the hill. Maybe it's written wrongly. I said I was not on
4 the spot -- I was not on the spot itself, but I was up on the hill.
5 That's what I said.
6 Q. That's the most likely explanation. Mr. Mustafa, where were you
7 on the 28th of March, 1999?
8 A. I was out on the meadow in Izbice.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't have any
11 further questions for this witness. Thank you, Mr. Dragaj.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Djurdjic.
14 Ms. Kravetz, do you have re-examination?
15 MS. KRAVETZ: Just a couple of questions, Your Honours.
16 Re-examination by Ms. Kravetz:
17 Q. Mr. Dragaj, during a questioning by counsel from the Defence, you
18 were asked some questions in relation to the shelling of Leocina on the
19 25th of March, 1999. Can you tell us, was there any KLA presence in your
20 village on the day the village was shelled?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Was there any outgoing fire from Leocina to the direction where
23 the shells were coming from?
24 A. No. No, no.
25 Q. Now, you were also asked some questions about whether there were
1 able-bodied men among those person that were in the meadow. Now, in your
2 group that you have described during your testimony when this massacre
3 took place, was there anyone that was armed among the persons you were
5 A. No. No, there was no one at all with arms.
6 Q. You said you knew many of the persons that were in your group.
7 Are you aware of whether any of these persons were themselves members of
8 the KLA?
9 A. Where I was, there weren't any -- there was no one that I know
10 of. Most of the people where I was were elderly people, 60 and older,
11 women and children. There were no KLA members there.
12 Q. Now, sir, you were asked some questions about a period you spent
13 in Mitrovica in 1998 with your wife. Can you tell us why you left
14 Leocina and went to Mitrovica in 1998?
15 A. Because of fear. I didn't go there for pleasure. My house at
16 that time was still not burned. I just left because I feared the Serb
18 Q. What was happening in the area of the village of Leocina
20 A. That, I don't know. I stayed in Mitrovica for three or more
21 months, and when the OSCE returned, I returned to my house too.
22 Q. Do you recall which were the months during which you spent some
23 time in Mitrovica in 1998?
24 A. I don't remember. It was summertime.
25 Q. And what exactly were you afraid of would happen if you didn't
1 leave for Mitrovica?
2 A. We were afraid that they would kill us, exactly what happened in
3 Izbice afterwards on the 28th.
4 Q. And who were you afraid would kill you?
5 A. The Serbian police and army. I didn't fear anyone else.
6 Q. Was there any Serbian police and army present in the area of
7 Leocina before you decided to go to Mitrovica in the summer of 1998?
8 A. Not in 1998 there weren't, not in Leqina, at least. They were in
9 Runik, in Kline, in Skenderaj, that area.
10 Q. Okay. Now, sir, you were asked some questions about the
11 exhumations that took place in Izbica in 1999, the exhumation of the
12 bodies of the massacre. Have all the bodies of the victims that were
13 killed on the 28th of March been recovered by the relatives of the
15 A. All the bodies were removed from the earth, and then they leveled
16 the ground with their bulldozers.
17 Q. And since that period, have the bodies been recovered? Have all
18 the bodies been recovered since this happened in 1999?
19 A. No. Many of the bodies were never recovered.
20 MS. KRAVETZ: Thank you, Your Honour. I have no further
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE PARKER: You'll be pleased to know, sir, that that
24 completes the questions that will be asked of you. Thank you for coming
25 to The Hague
1 your evidence. You will now be able to return to your home and normal
2 affairs, and the court officer --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am very honoured and happy at the
4 work you are doing. Thank you very much.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, indeed, sir, and the court officer will
6 now show you out. Thank you.
7 [The witness withdrew]
8 JUDGE PARKER: Is there any matter that needs to be attended to
9 before we adjourn? As there is not, we will now, as foreshadowed at the
10 beginning of today's hearing, adjourn with a view to hearing the evidence
11 of the next witness when we continue on Monday morning, which we do at
12 9.00 on Monday.
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.56 a.m.
14 to be reconvened on Monday, the 9th day of
15 February, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.