1 Tuesday, 10 February 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, Doctor. May I remind you, your
7 affirmation you made at the beginning of your evidence still applies.
8 Mr. Djordjevic.
9 WITNESS: LIRI LOSHI [Resumed]
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djordjevic.
12 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Djordjevic: [Continued]
14 Q. [Interpretation] Let us continue where we left off yesterday. My
15 next question pertains to the 26th of March. The time is 1600, 1630, in
16 the village of Likovac
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you. Is it also in the municipality of Srbica
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you have any knowledge of this date, the 26th of March, and
21 the time slot that I indicated? So do you know that in the village of
22 Likovac five police officers were killed, or is it something that you
23 don't know about?
24 A. No, I don't know about that.
25 Q. In light of the fact that in your statement you said that you had
1 received information from the KLA about all the events in the
2 municipality of Srbica, how do you then explain the fact that you have no
3 knowledge of such an extremely grave incident?
4 A. [In English] Okay.
5 [Interpretation] In the place where I was operating, that was an
6 area that was physically separated from Likovc that you mentioned.
7 Likovc is south of Turiqevc, the terrain is very difficult, about
8 3 kilometres south of Turiqevc, so it is very difficult to communicate
9 with people. Very often for days on end nobody came from Likovc to
10 Turiqevc, and vice versa. I did not have any contact with people in
11 Likovc. It would be impossible for me to get information about events in
12 Likovc. They had other reporters who reported for the RTK and other
13 media. So Likovc was not under my zone of responsibility, if I could
14 call it so.
15 I would comment on what you said, that it would not be reasonable
16 to attack the Serb forces there. The Serb forces came to Izbica from
17 various directions, and they did not have any connection with Likovc
19 Q. You mentioned your area of responsibility, and you have never
20 done that before. Could you please then tell me, what was your area of
21 responsibility in territorial terms, since you said that Likovac was not
22 within your jurisdiction, that it was south of Turicevac about
23 3 kilometres?
24 A. I said earlier that I operated in the area of Brigade 111th. In
25 Likovc there was another brigade; I can't remember its name or number.
1 There were other people who were responsible there in Likovc. Brigade
2 112th was -- started from the area of Llausha, and I could mention all
3 the villages under its responsibility, but it could take a long time. If
4 you want me to do so, I will.
5 Q. You don't have to do that, but you claim that Likovac was not in
6 your area, as you say it. Can we agree that it is a fact?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. My next question again pertains to what you stated in
9 your examination-in-chief when you were examined by my colleague,
10 Ms. Daniela Kravetz. You said that on the 24th of March a shell killed
11 three people in the village of Kladernica
13 A. No, I did not eye-witness that because I went there later. The
14 event had occurred during the night, while I went there in the morning of
15 the 25th of March. However, I did not have any reason that it happened,
16 because I was in contact with people, with their relatives, so I got
17 information from them. And this killing happened because of the
18 shelling. The Serb forces here did not conduct any execution of the
19 people, but people died because there was shelling. And these people,
20 unfortunately, were there at the moment and that's how it happened.
21 Q. You said that there was shelling, that the village of Kladernica
22 was shelled. You also mentioned that on the 26th, if I'm not mistaken,
23 the 26th of March, a group of people was killed in Turicevac, again by
24 shelling. Were you an eye-witness of this latter incident on the 26th?
25 Rather, I'm sorry, yes, I made a mistake. It was the 30th of March. And
1 the village is Tusilje. That was the other story about the shelling.
2 A. I did not eye-witness that.
3 Q. You say that you heard this from other people. Those other
4 people that you heard it from, were those officers of the KLA, in other
5 words, the military, or were those civilians?
6 A. There was a group of people, villagers, who were in Tushile, and
7 then they came to Kopiliq and I talked to them. They were scared,
8 terrified, by what had happened that day and told me that in Tushile
9 there had been a very severe shelling. I heard the shelling personally,
10 but they told me that 11 people had been killed. I was never able to
11 verify the information, though, so I'm not sure how many people died.
12 But of course people died there. However, whether there were 11 of them
13 or less, I don't know.
14 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, where did the shells come from, when
15 we're talking about the village of Kladernica
16 A. Well, I'll try to explain that the Serb forces, whenever we
17 wanted to enter a place, first of all, they shelled is. That's why I
18 always call them "the Serb forces" and not with another name, because my
19 impression is that the Serb army shelled, and then after that the
20 operations were joint operations, the police and the army.
21 So if they had planned to enter a certain area, they shelled the
22 whole day to show people where they were, and the people had to leave in
23 order to be safe. They also wanted to show the KLA: Either fight us or
24 leave. And I think that that was the reason. And they did not care
25 where that shell fell and who it killed. They were not known for their
1 humanitarian feelings.
2 So at that time we knew where the Serb forces were because of the
3 shelling and the source of the shelling. The source of the shelling for
4 Klodernice and the other villages, because to go to Klodernice you have
5 to go to Kastriot, they shelled all the villages around. They entered
6 Klodernice, they entered Turiqevc, they rested in Turiqevc for a night,
7 they shelled other villages. They did not go to Tushile the next day,
8 but they waited so that they could enter Tushile after the shelling. And
9 they did not want to have many losses on their side.
10 This is how they operated. They went wherever they wanted and
11 they had minimal losses on their part. It was a very well-organised
12 army. The forces were well organised. Their operations were successful,
13 but they harmed the local population, the civil population a lot, while
14 the KLA did not resist, because that was their order from their
15 commanders. And the civilian population asked them not to resist because
16 they would not be able to push them back.
17 So the result of the shelling was that the people would leave, go
18 to places that they thought were safer, such as Izbica, and at the same
19 time the KLA preserved its people. The idea was not to have many losses.
20 The KLA avoided the conflict, while the Serb army shelled the villages
21 without taking into account whether there were people there or not, and
22 they didn't care whether they killed people or not. So the next day they
23 would be able to enter the area.
24 At that time the Serb operations were going on, the KLA were in
25 the mountains around, and it is very interesting because the Serb forces
1 never went to the mountains to look for the KLA. They didn't need to.
2 This was their tactics. They wanted to kill the civilian population and
3 not have any losses on their side. I think they achieved this
4 successfully. But, however, the population was really harmed.
5 Q. Mr. Loshi, you were in Lecina. Can you please repeat for us, why
6 did you leave that place?
7 A. Yes. I was in Leqina at the beginning, after my house was burnt.
8 I lived in Demush Dragaj's house. The reason I left on the 26th is
9 because it was impossible to go on living there. I went to Izbica, to
10 Turiqevc, and at that time I could see what was going on. We measured
11 the danger we were in by the shelling that was happening. So the
12 shelling started on Leqina so I did not -- I could not go to Leqina
14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters kindly ask the witness to
15 speak more slowly, please.
16 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. So you are saying that the Serbian forces shelled Lecina, too.
18 A. The Serb forces shelled all the villages in Dr enice, including
19 Leqina. There is no village in Drenice that was not shelled.
20 Q. Mr. Loshi, were there any Serb inhabitants in those villages?
21 That's my first question. And my second question is whether there were
22 any other ethnic communities, non-Albanians, living there, members of
23 other ethnic communities living in Kosovo?
24 A. In my village, Padalishte, there were no Serbs. In Leqina there
25 were some Serb families. In other villages, in Drenice, Ludoviq,
1 Llausha, there is a church which was working before and during the war.
2 In Runik where I worked as a doctor, there were Serbs. Runik had a
3 majority of Serbs in the area. Then Banja and the village of Radisheva
4 there were Serbs. On the other side there is the village of Belinca
5 which is in the Istog municipality but is neighbouring to Izbica. That
6 is another village where Serbs lived. This is what I know about what you
7 asked me.
8 In Leqina there were several families. Not many, but there were
9 some. I did not have any contact with these Serbs personally, unless
10 they came to Runik as patients for me to treat them. That could be
11 possible. But other than that, I did not have any contact with them.
12 Q. And you will agree with me that a number of Serb families --
13 well, let's have Lecina as our example, because this is where you were;
14 that there were at least ten Serb families there. Would you agree with
16 A. It is possible that you have the right information, but I don't
17 know. I can agree with you, but I cannot say whether there were ten of
18 them or how many there were.
19 Q. No, I'm asking you this because you spent some time there and you
20 are familiar with the circumstances, and this is why I'm quite surprised
21 that you're not aware of this. But I'm sure that there will be many
22 things that you don't know when we come to things that you don't want to
23 be talking about. But what I'm asking you now is this: The families
24 living in Lecina, was their last name Smigic or Zmigic? Do you know at
25 least that?
1 A. I don't know the surnames. I'm not sure. I will say again that
2 it is possible that there were families with that surname, but I didn't
3 know them. Well, as to your comment, I don't think that I have given the
4 impression that I don't want to answer the questions; however, that's
5 your opinion, and you can think whatever you want.
6 Q. Doctor, I would like to be mistaken. Of course, I simply
7 presented my impression and it is not binding on anyone in this
8 courtroom, but I'm sure that we will all be thinking about what you told
10 My next question is, since you were in Lecina, and bearing in
11 mind the way that you answered -- the way you answered questions so far,
12 I think I have a fair idea of what your answer will be, but can you tell
13 me, do you know who Habit Haziraj is, who Muhamet Haliti, aka Naser, who
14 these people are? We're talking about Lecina. You lived there.
15 A. Muhamet Haliti, I don't think there is -- there was a
16 Muhamet Haliti there. And this person Naser, who was that person?
17 Q. That's what I asked you. Do you know who he is, Muhamet Haliti,
18 aka Naser?
19 A. There is no person with such a name in Leqina. I don't remember
20 any Muhamet Haliti. In Leqina there are these names: Dragaj, Shala,
21 Konjuhi, Haziraj, who live in another neighbourhood. There is another
22 surname which is Shala. There are the Haziraj's and there are some other
23 surnames, but there is no Haliti as a surname. I know the Albanians much
24 better. Maybe it's another name you're thinking about. I have no reason
25 to say I don't know him. I don't think, though, that there is a person
1 with that surname in the village of Leqina
2 Q. Well, Dr. Loshi, I will agree with you completely for the last
3 names that you mentioned, although I really don't know the families that
4 you mentioned. I asked you about a name, whether you knew that man, but
5 that pertained to Lecina. I asked you about Habit Haziraj. Can I elicit
6 any kind of answer from you about that name? I don't claim that they are
7 from Lecina, but they were linked to an event in Lecina that involved the
8 Serb population. So that's why I'm asking you, do you know who
9 Habit Haziraj is, yes or not, and if yes, then please explain how you
10 know him.
11 A. Yes. Habit Haziraj was a member of the KLA. He was a member of
12 the 112th Brigade. I knew him.
13 Q. Where is Habit Haziraj from?
14 A. From Llausha.
15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Lecina. My next question is
16 this: Do you know that those two persons I just mentioned to you, Habit
17 Haziraj and Muhamet Haliti, aka Naser, or since you told us that you
18 didn't know who Muhamet Haliti was, do you have any knowledge of any
19 persons having abducted Dostana Smigic form Lecina and having taken her
20 to a prison in the village of Likovac
21 She was also tortured, and she went through a number of unpleasant
22 experiences. Do you have any knowledge of that, since at that time you
23 were in Lecina? Or, again, you don't know anything about that?
24 A. Could you please give me a date because I have heard about this
25 case, but I was not in Leqina at that time. I heard about this case when
1 I was in Runik working there, meaning that a Serb woman was missing for
2 some time. I was not in Leqina at the time so I don't have direct
3 information about that.
4 Q. Well, it probably happened before you arrived in Lecina. That's
5 what I suppose.
6 A. It is possible. I heard about that when I was in Runik, from the
7 Albanians, Serbs, that this woman went missing, but I don't have any
8 other information.
9 Q. What time -- when did you arrive in Lecina? What month?
10 A. I went to Leqina by the end of June 1998.
11 Q. Were there more Serbs in Lecina at that time? Were those
12 families living there still, or had they already moved out?
13 A. I'm not sure. I know that there were Serbs there, that their
14 houses were there; however, please believe me that I don't know whether
15 they were still living there or not. I was busy doing my job as a
16 doctor. Their houses are in a separate neighbourhood. They have a
17 different entrance from the rest of the village. You enter that
18 neighbourhood through another street, so I never went to that
19 neighbourhood. I simply don't have any information about what you asked
21 Q. Are you trying to tell us that those Serbs were hale and hearty
22 to such an extent that they never went to visit Dr. Loshi, or was there
23 any other doctor there or near?
24 A. At that time when I worked in Leqina, you mean? They didn't come
25 to see me. I don't know whether they had health problems or not, but
1 they never came to see me as a doctor. If you ask me about Runik, then,
2 yes, there were Serbs. Maybe there were some who came from Leqina, but I
3 don't remember all of them. I had many patients, between 70 and 80 a
5 Q. I asked you about Lecina, not Runik, and that was not by chance.
6 There were the Serb houses there, the ones that you saw, but there were
7 no Serbs living there. They had been expelled, as you saw.
8 I'm going to stop at this point and then I'm going to deal with
9 another topic. In relation to Tusilje and Kladernica, and we heard about
10 other villages, you said that they were shelled by Serb forces and you
11 said that was their pattern of behaviour. And they would enter and then
12 they did all sorts of things, committed crimes, and so on and so forth.
13 So we heard that there were Serbs in those villages, too, and we will
14 conclude that the Serb army and police were merciless, as you say,
15 towards the members of their own ethnic group that they belonged to.
16 I would be interested in the shelling. First of all, when did
17 the NATO bombing in Kosovo start? Do you know the date?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What was the date?
20 A. On the 24th of March, in the evening.
21 Q. That's right. Thank you. Do you know and are you sure that the
22 shelling that you referred to was carried out by the Serb army only, or
23 was there shelling by NATO, too?
24 A. In the Drenice area, at least in the area where I lived, there
25 was no shelling by NATO. In other words, there was no bombing by NATO
1 from the air. The shelling came from the Serb forces, land forces, from
2 their positions on the ground, so they were shelling surface to surface.
3 Q. Mr. Loshi, where did you do your military service? You said that
4 you had done your military service in the Yugoslav People's Army, so
5 where was that?
6 A. I went to do military service in September 1987 and completed it
7 in 1988. I completed one part in Bitola
8 the training period there in Bitola
9 remaining part I completed in Skopje
10 some three months.
11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter kindly requests that the
12 witness repeats the dates again.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] September 1987, and September 1988
14 I finished it.
15 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Thank you for such a detailed answer. Just one more detail,
17 please. What service did you do your military service in, and what were
18 you trained for?
19 A. We were taught how to use automatic rifles, pistols, recoilless
20 guns. To tell you the truth, I was not a weapon lover, so it is very
21 difficult for me to remember every type of weapons we were taught how to
22 use. I don't like weapons. I was not a good soldier in terms of
23 weapons, using weapons. I was 27 when I went to do my military service
24 and completed it when I was 28, so my interests were completely
25 different. So going to serve, to do the military service, for me was
1 like going to prison. But that was something that we all had to do, so
2 that's what I did, too.
3 Q. Doctor, I share your views on a personal level. Just one more
4 thing. As you described this to all of us in the courtroom, did you
5 serve in the infantry or where? I'm talking about arms and services now.
6 It certainly wasn't the navy. I doubt it was the air force.
7 A. We were -- we underwent the general training. I was in the
8 infantry for three and a half months, until this training period was
9 completed, and afterwards I was no longer part of the infantry. We
10 worked in the Goca Delcev barracks and did physical work, manual work.
11 And I also had time to prepare my exams, so at the same time I was
12 studying to complete my university studies.
13 Q. And you were not a good soldier; right?
14 A. Yes. When it comes to using weapons, yes, I was not a good
15 soldier. You're right.
16 Q. By all means, yes, yes. Since you mentioned your young colleague
17 who worked as a doctor together with you and who got killed later, you
18 said that he got his degree in medicine from a university that was not
19 recognised by the Serbian authorities, so he did not have a diploma,
20 whereas you graduated from the school of medicine from the University of
21 Pristina within the educational system of the then SFRY or later FRY, and
22 within that, of course, the Republic of Serbia
23 of Kosovo and Metohija. Am I right when I say that? And you got a
24 regular diploma of the school of medicine of the University of Pristina
1 A. Yes. My colleague, too, had a diploma, but from an alternative
2 university led by Albanians. So he graduated from this faculty. He had
3 a diploma too. Personally, I graduated as you explained during the time
4 of Yugoslavia
5 Q. Thank you. What KLA brigade operated in the area of Izbica or,
6 rather, Srbica, one or more? And if so, which one or which ones?
7 A. One so-called brigade, though it wasn't a brigade in real terms.
8 I don't know about the exact number of soldiers. I was asked of this
9 from Milosevic, during that trial. This was a brigade that operated in
10 that area.
11 Q. Thank you. This so-called brigade, as you had put it, was that
12 the Drenica operation zone of the KLA?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you. Do you know that this brigade, during 1998, and in
15 the beginning of 1999 was in the Drenica operation zone or, rather, the
16 municipality of Srbica; that they blocked roads there, attacked the Serb
17 police, civilians, other ethnic groups, Roma included, and even Albanians
18 who did not support their cause. Of course they attacked the security
19 forces, the Serbian army, and so on. The question was a pretty long one,
20 but the answer can be short.
21 A. No, this is not true. This brigade, like all other brigades that
22 were formed, its purpose was to defend the Albanian population to a
23 certain extent from the Serbian forces. We all knew that the brigade
24 could not stop the attacks of the Serb forces when they were on
25 offensive. If a group of Serbian infantry would enter a village, the
1 idea was that these brigades, with a scarce number of weapons that they
2 had, would defend the population and themselves.
3 I'm not familiar with what you said, that they blocked the roads
4 and killed civilians and that they killed Serbs and Albanians, civilians
5 I mean. I know that they did kill policemen where they could. And if
6 they confronted other police forces, there were probably casualties. But
7 as far as civilians are concerned, Albanians, Roma, and other ethnic
8 groups, I don't think so, at least I don't have any knowledge about this.
9 Q. This does not correspond to part of your statement where it says
10 that you were a doctor in Runik and that you know that a woman was
11 abducted and went missing from the village of Lecina
12 there weren't any check-points on the roads, and the roads weren't
14 A. I have an answer. When I heard about this woman that had been
15 abducted -- you're asking me about the activities of the 112th Brigade.
16 At that time this brigade did not exist, at the time when this woman was
17 abducted. There was one general name, KLA, and at that time I had no
18 knowledge about the activities. It's a question of time. You're saying
19 1998, late 1998, beginning of 1999. Then, yes, there was a brigade. But
20 if you're talking about the time of Runik, and you're linking that time
21 to this brigade, I'm simply telling you that at that time the brigade
22 didn't exist.
23 Q. And the brigade was established only to protect Albanian
24 civilians, and it didn't have any other objectives; right? Are you
25 trying to say that the sole objective of all the members of the KLA was
1 not to the Republic of Kosovo
2 state of Kosovo, or was their objective only what you referred to, the
3 defence of Albanian civilians?
4 A. I believe that their objective was to come out of a regime of
5 that time, Milosevic time. I don't want to speak about this because
6 we've heard a lot about this. But it was a difficult regime for the
7 Albanians living in Kosova, so it had to come to an end by all means. We
8 had Rugova as a leader who led for ten years the peaceful resistance, but
9 then we realised that we could no longer understand each other with
10 Milosevic through dialogue. So the idea was to free Kosova and
11 afterwards to make Kosova independent. This is true, but the
12 capabilities of the KLA to achieve such a thing was almost inexistent.
13 As to the capabilities of the KLA to try and defend the
14 population, this was possible, and that's why I'm saying that this was
15 the tactics of the KLA. Maybe during the war they thought that they will
16 liberate Kosova, that they're able to do this and that, but the reality
17 was completely difficult. It didn't turn out as they expected, so their
18 tactics was to defend the population to the extent that they could.
19 As I mentioned earlier, the Serb army was very well organised.
20 It was a strong army and used all its resources to meet its objectives.
21 To what I saw, the objective was killing, inflicting horror and terror
22 among the population, as well as fear, and ultimately force the Albanian
23 population in Kosova to leave towards Albania and Macedonia
24 This is what you've probably seen as well, something that the whole world
25 has seen.
1 Q. Obviously you will not agree with me that the Serb army and
2 police in Kosovo and Metohija protected the sovereignty of a sovereign
3 state, in view of mass armed resistance, attacks against Serb civilians,
4 Serb police, and the Serb army. You certainly will not agree with me
5 when I say that.
6 A. One cannot defend sovereignty by mass killings, and this is what
7 the Serb army and police did in fact. If they thought that they could
8 defend sovereignty of their state, Serbian state, in this way, then I
9 think that they were mistaken.
10 Q. As you said, a discussion on that topic would be a very
11 wide-ranging one, and we are not here for that purpose. However, you
12 will agree with me that peoples like Albanians and people of the Falkland
13 islands, who are tens of thousands of miles away from Great Britain, you
14 know how they reacted when Argentina
15 we going to talk about the Basque in Spain? Do they have the same rights
16 as Albanians? Not to speak about the recently seceded republics in
18 this courtroom, but we are now dealing with the consequence of a highly
19 uncivilised, uncultured event, something that is wrong in the twentieth
20 and twenty-first century, and I'm going to end on that note. What I'd
21 like to say --
22 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, I think my colleague is again entering
23 into a debate with the witness, and he's not putting any questions to him
24 and entering into a debate with the witness. I'm just looking at the
25 last line of the transcript. I don't see any question being put to the
2 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] May I respond, Your Honour?
3 JUDGE PARKER: You may, indeed.
4 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] My learned friend Ms. Kravetz
5 rightly noted that I went beyond the scope of questions being put to the
6 witness, and I will agree with that. All of this provides an
7 indispensable context for the questions that will follow, a series of
9 Q. Now, my next question: You said that many people had come to
10 Izbica; 20.000 to 25.000, that was your estimate. You said that they
11 came from different villages, from the territory of Drenica
12 Izbica in particular that they came to?
13 A. As I mentioned early, Izbica is a location where they sheltered.
14 It's a valley with hills on both sides, and it suited the people at the
15 time because they didn't want to be victims of shelling. So that's why
16 they thought that they would be safe there. There's no other reason than
17 that. The same situation is in Tushile. The terrain is more or less
18 similar to that in Izbica; valleys, surrounded by hills.
19 The Serb forces loved the hills. They wanted to be on top of the
20 hills, and as soon as they entered the valleys, they would have already
21 surrounded, encircled, them and they had free hands to do whatever they
23 Q. Tell me, who is Zeqir Loshi. Do you know?
24 A. He is a fellow villager, a distant relative of mine. There are
25 three Loshi neighbourhoods there. He's not in my neighbourhood; he is
1 from another neighbourhood. But he's not part of my family. We are
2 very, very distant relatives, but I know him.
3 Q. Do you know who Xhavit Dragaj is and Ramadan [Realtime transcript
4 read in error "Ramut"] Dragaj?
5 A. Okay. I have "Ramut Dragaj" on the screen before me. It should
6 read Ramadan Dragaj. Xhavit Dragaj is a friend of mine. He's a doctor.
7 We worked together. He's a dentist, and as I said, we worked together in
9 Ramadan Dragaj, I didn't remember him as a name in the beginning,
10 but later I was asked about him. Personally, I don't know him. But when
11 I went to make a recording after the war about a massacre at Padalishte,
12 he has allegedly come there, and allegedly I have presented him as
13 Commander Ramadan.
14 So this is how I came to realise that I've known -- I've met this
15 person. I'm not describing him in any capacity. To me he was just a
16 villager. It is possible that he was a KLA member, an ordinary soldier,
17 but I don't think I heard of him having an important function within the
18 KLA, whereas Xhavit was never a KLA member. He is a good doctor, a good
20 Q. Your relative Zeqir?
21 A. Zeqir was for some time in Germany
22 him when I came back from Albania
23 Tribunal must have this footage about the massacre at Padalishte. This
24 person was a civilian; I know him as such. I'm not sure whether he
25 joined the KLA later or not. It is possible that he joined, but this I
1 don't know. I cannot be specific here.
2 Q. Then I'm going to skip my next question. You mentioned what you
3 term as the massacre in Izbica. You mentioned your relatives Sami and
4 Jashar Loshi who lost their lives there. Can you tell me about the two
5 of them? Were they members of the KLA?
6 A. No, they never were KLA members. This is -- they come from a
7 very good family, very honest and helpful. So they were down-to-earth
8 people, very good men, and they were never KLA members. They were close
9 relatives and my first neighbours.
10 Q. So they're from Padaliste; right?
11 A. Yes, they are from Padalishte. Selman lived in Padalishte during
12 this time, while Jashar and his son Sami lived in Skenderaj. So Jashar
13 had his family in Skenderaj; however, during the war they joined together
14 on the 20th, when 16 civilians were killed, the event that was mentioned
15 and that occurred in Skenderaj. So these were amongst those who fled,
16 who survived the events. They fled to Izbica, and they were killed
17 there. I saw him with my own eyes -- I saw them with my own eyes, and I
18 spoke to them about these events. I saw them on the night of the 27th of
19 March for the last time.
20 Q. My next question has to do with Izbica. You arrived at the scene
21 where you made the recording that we saw in the courtroom on the 30th of
22 March. Now, my question pertains to all those people that you filmed,
23 primarily to what you said. You said that you knew that some of them had
24 not been killed on the same day as the majority of the civilians there.
25 Of course, you were not an eye-witness; you learned that from
1 conversations with other people.
2 So now I'm going to ask you this: Do you know how many people
3 that you filmed there were really residents of certain villages from the
4 area around Izbica? Because it's quite obvious that people gathered
5 there from various villages. And how many of them were killed in other
6 locations? Is it just the one man that you mentioned or were there
8 A. Well, if I get the list here, I could help you. I can look at
9 the surnames and then tell you which villages they come from. For
10 example, there are people with the surname Dragaj; they are from Leqina
11 and Izbica. Well, your question was how many people were from Izbica and
12 the surrounding areas. That was the question I got.
13 Q. No. It is quite clear that all those people were from the area
14 of Srbica, Drenica, and so on. What I'm asking you is, do you know for a
15 fact whether all of them were killed, lost their lives, on that day,
16 whatever, the 26th or 27th of March? Or were there people who were
17 killed earlier or later?
18 A. Okay, then. The two soldiers from the KLA are Zaim Bajrami and
19 Ajet Beqiri. Ajet was wearing uniform; Zaim was in civilian clothes.
20 They were killed at the same place on the 27th of March. The other
21 people were killed on the 28th of March, all of them killed on the 28th
22 of March. In the group of 127 people that I am talking about, they were
23 all killed on the same day.
24 Q. Thank you, Dr. Loshi.
25 The next line of questioning will have to do with an exhibit
1 tendered by the Prosecution. It's the list about the photograph where
2 you answered some questions by my colleague Ms. Kravetz, and there was
3 the investigator Malvin Dagsland, pertaining to the number of photographs
4 that he did by getting screen caps from the footage and giving them
5 numbers and providing some comments, in the statement as it has been
6 written, and that has to do with the 23rd and the 25th of September,
8 You said on that occasion that the film was done by
9 Mr. Sefedin Thaqi, the teacher. You believe that he is still in Kosovo
10 and that he's still in the same line of business. As regards the table,
11 you testified in the Milutinovic et al case, and when Judge Bonomy --
12 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Well, I would like to ask, if
13 possible, to show the witness a portion of the transcript. That's page
14 50 -- 5401 of the transcript from the Milutinovic et al case, and if we
15 could zoom on that page, 5401, paragraphs 5, 7, 8, and 9, those lines,
16 rather, in the transcript. I would just like to say that this is
17 D001-3962. In fact, 3862.
18 [In English] It's page 50.
19 Q. [Interpretation] Although I do have information about this, I
20 would just like to ask Dr. Loshi if he reads and understands English
22 A. Yes, I do. The last time I witnessed I spoke in English, so I
23 can recognise my words. It's not a problem.
24 Q. Thank you, Doctor. We have to do this because this is a new and
25 separate case. My question about this page is -- well, you told
1 Judge Bonomy that you recognised all the words, that there is a comment
2 by the investigator and that not all of those comments were given by him
3 and not all the information was given by him or you, and especially not
4 the words that are contained in the columns. That's what you said. And
5 you go on to explain that it's possible that the investigator himself
6 provided those descriptions, you see that, and that he obtained them from
7 another witness, not from you.
8 And you told us yesterday - that's in the transcript - that you
9 provided the comments that are contained in the columns but that you
10 can't remember now because a long time had passed. You talked about the
11 first name mentioned in the column, but because of the time lapse you
12 cannot recall. So how come there is this discrepancy between what you
13 said yesterday and what you said at that time?
14 A. There is no discrepancy. It's only the way I said things.
15 Before I did not have the list before me when I explained it. I am not
16 an investigator, and I don't know how they work. When I came here and
17 did the proofing, I asked the Prosecutor to give me again the contested
18 part to see, the part that was discussed the last time I was here when I
19 witnessed. And I was clear about what I said. I say that there were
20 only two soldiers of the KLA, while here it appears as if there were an
21 additional two. The truth is that there were only two soldiers of whom
22 one was wearing uniform and the other was in civilian clothes.
23 Well, with regard to the columns, the description of the bodies
24 was done by the investigator himself in most of the cases, and I think
25 that's normal because we viewed the tape together. I helped him with the
1 identification and other things, but, however, the way people looked in
2 the photographs, on the monitor, he described them. I agreed with his
3 description and signed everything.
4 So I don't think you can contest this. There was a confusion the
5 last time, in the last trial, and now I can explain it in detail, if you
6 want, if you wish. It was suggested that two people, one of them had a
7 military jacket on or a military coat, [in English] which in fact the
8 military court, military jacket, not necessarily presents the KLA soldier
9 or any soldier at all. So I was confused that if somebody is suggesting
10 me that what has been said about these two people as members of KLA, that
11 was not true. They were not members of KLA. And I -- I wished if
12 Prosecutor or yourself, if you have those pictures, to show them to the
13 Judge and to show to me and so everyone can see them, that they don't
14 look like soldiers. They're just like civilians.
15 [Interpretation] I'll continue in Albanian. This is just because
16 of the digression I had to make. I wanted to explain that concrete
18 Q. Thank you. But what stuck in my memory and what I wanted to ask
19 you about, why I wanted to get a brief and precise answer -- well, I got
20 it, but it was not specific enough. It pertains to your argument. What
21 you told us that all the comments in the columns where the people of
22 their identities are described, that this is something that you did. And
23 here you say something that is completely different, and this is why I
24 had to ask you this.
25 Now I would like to ask you --
1 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I won't have any other questions
2 on this, but I would like to ask the usher: The page is 5402 -- no,
3 5403, so right after this document, and that would be page 51. Could we
4 please look at that, and I would like to show this to the witness.
5 Q. Now, my question is this: You state here that the only thing
6 that you had to do with the table is that you were asked to sign it, you
7 had a look at it, and then you signed it. We can look at the broader
8 context of your statement. It particularly pertains to the person called
9 Ajet Beqiri. That's paragraphs 14, 15, 16, 17, and 18. That's where it
10 ends. So you simply state here that you signed the record and that this
11 was all done by an investigator, and that you knew very little about it.
12 You actually knew nothing about it. You stated something differently
13 yesterday, so please could you just briefly comment on it.
14 A. The last time I testified, I did not look into the details of the
15 columns, and a long time had elapsed from 2001 when he came to Canada
16 2006, five years had elapsed, and I dealt with other things in my life.
17 So later on, when I looked at these lists more carefully, last week I
18 mean, I saw that the comments are mine but the descriptions are the
19 investigator's descriptions, where the people have been described, how
20 they were dressed and so on. I, of course, accept this as my testimony
21 and as my statement, but the last time I was confused.
22 [In English] If somebody is suggesting me that there were two
23 more soldiers in addition to two others I just mentioned, Ajet Beqiri and
24 Zaim Bajrami, that is not true. So if somebody else wants to put two
25 names here, then it's not -- it's not something that has to do with my
1 testimony at all. But later on I figured out that it just -- it's a
2 matter of misunderstanding. So the description has been done by the
3 investigator of The Hague Tribunal, while the comments have been done by
4 myself. And I take this as my testimony, and I signed it. There is
5 nothing to dispute here, as far as myself is concerned at least.
6 Q. Well, this is completely unclear to me, so I'm asking you why is
7 it that you state this for the first time ten years after all this
8 happened? Well, okay, 2001. Not ten but eight years. Why did you not
9 say that when you testified in the Milutinovic case? Why did you
10 describe things in a completely different way, saying that you did not
11 know anything about the document more or less? And now you say that all
12 the comments are yours. Is it possible that eight years after the events
13 your memory is so much fresher, and it was not better two years before?
14 So that's not logical at all.
15 A. [Interpretation] Yes. If my memory had been as fresh now as it
16 was eight years ago, yes, that would not be logical. But I will explain.
17 The first time that I looked at this list in detail as a witness --
18 because before I came here as a witness, but I didn't think that I had to
19 look at everything in detail. However, you, as Defence, are asking me
20 questions, and from the previous experiences I thought that it would be
21 better for me to look at everything I had said and signed.
22 Well, in the Milosevic trial, the Prosecutor suggested that my
23 witness statement included something by chance, something else; however,
24 this had nothing to do with what the Prosecutor suggested. It had
25 nothing to do with my testimony. It just had to do with something I
1 failed to analyse before I came here.
2 You can see for yourself here [in English] and see in 2002 what
3 The Hague Prosecutor said about this case, and see that he was -- he was
4 saying that there has been something else added to his testimony by
5 chance, like not intentionally, and stuff like that. And that's why I
6 was confused. So I thought when this question was put to me, then I
7 thought, oh, probably this is something that belonged to that part that
8 the Prosecutor was suggesting years ago in Milosevic trial. This is my
9 answer about this, and I believe it makes sense.
10 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Dr. Loshi, I will not take your word for it that it makes sense.
12 Logical errors that reveal the truth occur often in testimony, and this
13 is what happened to you. You said, "I analysed the list this time." Why
14 would you need to analyse it when you, yourself, provided the comments,
15 when you took part in it, when you know all of it? You will remember
16 that at any time if you did that, and you didn't, because if you had then
17 the tone and the spirit of your testimony in the Milutinovic case would
18 have been so different from what you're testifying to today. You will
19 agree with me that you analysed it this time, and you were not called
20 here to analyse it but to testify. Thank you. If you have a comment, I
21 will gladly hear it.
22 A. [Interpretation] I did give my explanation, and you made a
23 comment on it. You can comment however you like. My duty here is to
24 present the facts and the Judges will analyse them.
25 Q. Mr. Loshi, my next question has to do with the bodies that you
1 filmed there. Do you know for a fact that all the bodies were found --
2 that were found there, that they were really found there, that their
3 lives ended there, or were there bodies that had been brought in from
4 other places?
5 A. The majority of the bodies were found in the two big groups and
6 there was another smaller group, so in total three groups. I never
7 counted the bodies myself, I think I mentioned that before; however, I
8 gave a number, an approximate number, from 110 to 120 people that were
9 killed. There were people who escaped, people who had wounds which were
10 very heavy wounds, but they were able to move a little further until they
11 died in another place, and they were found where they died.
12 There were people who were brought from Izbica, again, but they
13 were killed a little further; for example, somebody was killed in the
14 mountain or in a meadow. However, all of them were killed in Izbica.
15 For example, when the tape starts, you asked me, Why are you
16 saying this is not your part? The person who is seen there lying down
17 dead, this is a person who was killed by the Serb forces in
18 Sefedin Thaqi's house, and his house was burnt by the Serb forces. His
19 body was brought to Izbica because it's very close. It's about 500 or
20 600 metres away. So it was logical that all the people who were killed
21 on that day, to be brought and buried there. So this is the body that is
22 seen in -- on the tape. However, I say that this is not part of the
23 Izbica massacre there. This person, however, was buried there, in
25 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I think that because of the flow
1 of time, to have a break. But before that I would like to ask the
2 Trial Chamber to admit into evidence the two pages that I quoted from,
3 the pages in the Milutinovic et al case, the transcript in that case,
4 page 5401 and page 5403. I've already provided the D number.
5 JUDGE PARKER: The second page was 5403, was it?
6 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct.
7 JUDGE PARKER: I had it as 5402.
8 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment. Let me check.
9 It won't take long, but I do believe it's 5403.
10 JUDGE PARKER: I've been told that it was 3. You are correct,
11 Mr. Djordjevic.
12 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Those two pages will be received as
14 the one exhibit.
15 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D00024, Your Honours.
16 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to continue my
17 cross-examination after the break. It won't take long. But now I think
18 it's a convenient time for a break.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. We will adjourn and resume at 11.00.
20 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djordjevic.
23 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Mr. Loshi, we are going back to the month of June when, in 1999,
25 you returned to Tirana and when, according to your statement, you met up
1 with a representative of an American organisation called the WITNESS, and
2 you said that you got a camera from them. Could you please explain the
3 details to us in reference to your contacts with this organisation? What
4 do you know about this organisation? How did you get in touch with them,
5 and what were the reasons that led them to give you this camera? What
6 else did they give you, if anything, and what kind of contacts did you
7 have with them afterwards? The question is a rather wide-ranging one,
8 but it does merit an answer, doesn't it?
9 A. This is an organisation, though I've forgotten the details and
10 information about it now. I think it's a humanitarian organisation
11 called WITNESS. It's seat is in the US, in New York
12 The meeting with them was initiated by them. At the time we met the
13 bombing was still ongoing in Kosova, and from what they had seen from the
14 media about the massacre at Izbica, they were quite enthusiastic to meet
15 me. And they wanted to find other people as well who were interested to
16 enter Kosova and film similar massacres or other things that were going
17 on during the war there and afterwards provide this organisation with a
19 There was an agreement for these people to be paid afterwards. I
20 don't remember the amount they were supposed to receive. And I don't
21 know whether this agreement was realised in the end, because the bombing
22 was still going on. The Serb forces, military and police, were not
23 giving up, so it was impossible for me to enter Kosova.
24 In the meantime they provided two or three colleagues of mine
25 with cameras, too, because they, themselves, did not want to take the
1 risk of going in, because during the bombing campaign in Kosova, the
2 Serbian authorities did not allow a single foreign media to follow the
3 developments there.
4 Their interest was simply to get information. I think it was an
5 organisation for protecting human rights, so that's why they provided us
6 with cameras and tapes. So when I went eventually to Kosova, I took this
7 opportunity to make some filming. I sent them the tape with the massacre
8 at Padalishte, what I mentioned earlier, and I didn't give them any other
9 material because that was of no interest to them. Then the war ended and
10 this organisation was on its own then.
11 So these were recordings from Kosova during the NATO campaign. I
12 promised to enter Kosova, and I attempted to enter Kosova, but this was
13 impossible without placing my life in danger. It was dangerous for
14 everyone who tried to enter Kosova from Albania at that time. So I
15 didn't go into Kosova, but I did after the bombing on the 20th of June,
16 and on the 23rd I made the recordings that we saw yesterday here.
17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Loshi. Can you tell us the name of the person
18 from this organisation called WITNESS that you got in touch with? And
19 could you tell us when you were given this camera, what kind of a camera
20 it was, and whether you took upon yourself some kind of obligation in
21 respect to the technical equipment that you received from this person.
22 A. This person was a female. I don't remember her name. She was a
23 representative of this organisation based in Tirana at the time. We
24 spoke, exchanged information. We received instructions from her for our
25 work. She laid out the conditions to us and the obligation of the
1 organisation towards us.
2 The camera was the type with a tape. I think at the time there
3 still were not -- there were no cameras of nowadays available. This was
4 a camera with the smallest size of tapes, a Sony make, a hand-held
5 camera, Sony make. I have the camera with me here, and I can offer the
6 Tribunal to see it, to view it, if they so wish.
7 Q. You mentioned, and I didn't ask you about this, under what
8 circumstances were you working and what kind of instructions did you
9 receive from this woman?
10 A. The instructions were the following: We were supposed to record
11 wherever possible, record massacres, what I did at Izbica, and provide
12 them with the recordings. And they were supposed to pay us for every
13 recording that we were going to make. I don't know the amount, whether
14 it was 1.000 dollars or 2.000 dollars. I think it was 2.000 dollars per
15 tape. Actually, not per tape but per incident. But we didn't manage to
16 fulfil this agreement. We didn't receive any payment. I did take the
17 camera, and I did send them the recordings of the Padalishte incident,
18 and then we agreed that I keep the camera as a compensation for the
19 recording, for the tape.
20 Q. May I conclude that you sent that organisation your footage from
21 Padaliste as well?
22 A. Yes, I sent them a copy. I sent her a copy. I transferred the
23 recording to another tape, and I sent them a copy. The original is with
24 me. This happened after the war, and this is just to justify that they
25 gave me the camera as a compensation for sending them this tape.
1 However, the tape that I brought here with me, here I didn't provide
2 anyone with that tape, only the Tribunal, the one that we saw yesterday.
3 I sent them the copy by post, by mail, from Canada. I believe they have
4 it. I didn't receive any confirmation from them, and I didn't have any
5 further contacts with them.
6 Q. This is precisely what I wanted to ask you. Why did you not
7 submit copies of the footage we saw yesterday to this organisation called
8 WITNESS? As far as I understood things, in order to receive any money
9 you had to have a certificate to the effect that you had carried out the
10 duty that you had agreed upon with the representative of that
11 organisation. Am I not right?
12 A. The massacre at Padalishte, I managed to record the decomposed
13 bodies of the victims. When I went there, the bodies were still lying
14 down there. So this was of greater interest to the representatives of
15 this organisation, whereas the recordings at Izbica didn't show anything
16 else but ground that used to be a gravesite but that was leveled
17 afterwards. So they didn't take interest into this. I even thought that
18 the tape would not be interesting for the Tribunal either.
19 During my testimony here at the Milosevic -- Milutinovic trial, I
20 did mention the fact that I do have the recordings that I made in Izbica
21 in June 1999 upon my return from Albania
22 Prosecution if they had this tape at their disposal. They said they
23 didn't. And then I intervened by saying that I was never asked to
24 provide the Prosecution with this tape and that I was ready to do that.
25 So then the Prosecution asked me to give them the tape, and that's what I
1 did. I believe I explained in general the idea why this was done.
2 Q. Why did you do that, nevertheless, for the first time in the
3 Milutinovic trial, seven years after you took the footage?
4 A. It is a matter of a context of a conversation. As a witness
5 here, now, you're asking me questions; I'm answering your questions. So
6 you might have noticed that I've provided you with more information,
7 maybe things that I didn't mention in the past. Depending on the
8 questions, on the context of the discussion, an event can be described
9 from different angles by the same person, and now you're given an
10 opportunity to look at the truth from all its angles, because I've come
11 here to testify for three times here. However, the truth never changes;
12 it always remains the same. What happened has happened, and that is a
14 Q. Would you like to answer my question. Why did you do that only
15 after seven years? For the first time it was in the Milutinovic case.
16 That was when you mentioned the cassette for the very first time.
17 A. As I said, I didn't think of it as an important document. I
18 don't consider it an important documentation even now. This is a
19 recording of the terrain in Izbica after the ground was leveled by the
20 Serb forces and a recording that I made after the NATO forces entered
21 Kosova on the 23rd of June, 1999.
22 During that time, I saw some tables there and I realised from the
23 people I spoke to there that there had been people from different
24 international organisations. I even think that people from the Tribunal
25 had been there before me. So I didn't see it as an important thing to
2 The trial admitted it as a document, received it as a document,
3 as a proof that I was the person who did the recording and that this
4 recording was made in 1999.
5 So I don't know what other things to add. The footage depicts
6 some gloves, some wood planks, some other items. You can tell that there
7 had been bodies on that location; however, there are no other evidence --
8 there's no other evidence that may be of further use. I have no other
9 comment to add.
10 Q. I would now like to ask you to tell us the following: I viewed
11 this footage very carefully. We can see you speaking in Albanian, in all
12 fairness. Who actually held the camera in his or her hands and actually
13 filmed this, while you were speaking?
14 A. While I am speaking, that's the beginning of the recording, I've
15 mentioned it earlier that the person who is holding the camera is
16 Demush Dragaj, my friend. I went there with him. When I went to Kosova
17 from Albania
18 asked him to take me by car to the location in Izbica.
19 So I gave him the camera, asked him to record me in front of the
20 gravesite so that it is clearly seen who is making the report, and he's
21 holding the camera. But when you don't see my face on the camera, during
22 that time, it's me who is holding the camera. And you can hear my voice.
23 You can tell from the voice that it is very close to the camera, while
24 the other voice is a little bit more distant, and it's Demush's voice.
25 He doesn't speak a lot on the tape, but I think you can hear his voice on
1 several occasions. So when I asked him, for example, What is this? What
2 is that? That voice is mine, and I'm the person holding the camera at
3 that moment.
4 Q. Thank you. My next question -- there are only going to be two
5 more questions, and that is going to conclude my cross-examination.
6 So my first question has to do with the authenticity of the
7 footage in relation to the date when it was made. Is there some
8 compelling evidence that would prove the date when this was taken? Was
9 it exactly June 1999?
10 And my second question: As regards the film that had the working
11 title "The Massacre in Izbica" - this concludes my cross-examination
12 now - all the scenes the alleged massacre in Izbica were filmed by using
13 a close-up, without actually filming the entire area, so it is impossible
14 to conclude where this was actually being filmed. We cannot see any
15 landmarks that would show where the footage was actually being taken.
16 That's my question. And this concludes your cross-examination, and I
17 would like to thank you.
18 A. With regard to your first question, my sentence uttered on the
19 tape is, "We are in Izbica, 23rd of June, 1999, 1215 is the time, 15
20 minutes after noon
21 and then I explain what I'm doing. The reason why you don't see
22 subtitles on the screen is that we agreed with the WITNESS organisation
23 for the dates not to appear on the camera itself, but that we mentioned
24 the date. So we deleted the dates from the memory, and I spoke and
25 mentioned the dates. So the subtitle and -- subtitle feature and the
1 memory feature for the date were deactivated. This is the answer to your
2 first question.
3 Your second question has to do with the close-up recording. It
4 is true that the bodies were recorded from close up, and this is because
5 we were not professional cameramen, recorders, and I didn't know how to
6 give instructions to do a proper recording. The idea was to record the
7 bodies and show the world what Serbia
8 March. So our aim was not to provide the best copy possible because we
9 were not professional; neither was I, neither was he, the doctor. We
10 just wanted to document the event, and in those circumstances we managed
11 to provide a footage that could at least translate to the opinion what
12 happened, that that was Izbica.
13 Then I went with the witnesses on the ground and did some
14 recordings on the ground where they were taken to for execution, and
15 there you can see in more details the valley and the area, which is
16 clearly Izbica.
17 A comparison was made later on, the American intelligence, when
18 they had my tape and when they mentioned it during my briefings, they
19 mentioned that they did an aerial photograph of the area, that they
20 analysed my tape and that they saw the objects on the ground, whether
21 they corresponded with their aerial pictures. And they came to a
22 conclusion that that was Izbica, and then they could openly state to the
23 public that this was Izbica and that this massacre occurred in Izbica and
24 that the recording itself was made in Izbica.
25 During the bombing, during the war, the Serbian Television made a
1 different recording in a different village, presented the Serbs as if
2 Albanians. They spoke Albanian because they knew how to speak Albanian.
3 And they alleged that that place was Izbica, that there was no fighting
4 in Izbica, that nothing had happened there. A long time has passed now,
5 but I think that this material can be found on the internet, and you can
6 see the aim of the Serbian propaganda of the time. They wanted to deny
7 the fact that the massacre happened, and my aim was to show the truth of
8 what happened there.
9 Q. I'm not sure what propaganda you're referring to, Serbian or from
10 Kosovo. That's why I'm --
11 A. The Serbian Television. The Serbian Television made a recording
12 during the bombing campaign. Well, as a matter of fact, before this
13 cassette was issued, I was still in Izbica. At that time I was able to
14 pass on the information about Izbica through the information services of
15 the KLA. I managed to pass this information on that there was a massacre
16 in Izbica and 127 people were executed. This was an information I gave
17 without any photos. I told them that we did have the images, but because
18 of objective reasons it was impossible for them to be given to the public
19 opinion. But in the future, in the near future, we hoped to do that.
20 That near future became true in a month or so when I went to
22 about it. The White House, NATO, the Hague Tribunal, and the media were
23 aware that somebody in Drenice had this tape, and this person will come
24 to Tirana one day and bring it.
25 And fortunately I managed to go to Tirana and take the tape with
1 me. However, while I was in Izbica and I had not passed the tape on, the
2 Serbian Television had recorded something else to say that what is being
3 said about a massacre in Izbica is not true; it's a KLA propaganda, it's
4 Albanian propaganda. However, this was anti-propaganda that wanted to
5 devalue and to say that it was not true that the massacre happened. The
6 fact is that it happened. Serbia
7 even the birds could not fly without the Serbs dictating them.
8 That's why they prepared that programme, which, for me, was
9 ridiculous. They took these Serbs, and they spoke on behalf of the
10 Albanians. I think that Serb Television must have those materials now,
11 and you can bring them to the trial, and you can ask them what they did
12 with that. I don't have the material, though.
13 Q. As you noticed, Dr. Loshi, I'm not interrupting you, although
14 your answers are always outside the context of the direct questions that
15 I put to you. However, I cannot hold that against you. I just want to
16 ask you or, rather, to remind you about something that has to do with the
17 footage you took in Izbica. We all know full well, and you repeated it
18 to us just now, was to familiarise the public with the crimes of the
19 Serbian police, army, whoever, in relation to the crimes committed in
20 Izbica, as you had put it.
21 My question is the following: Since there is this journalistic
22 rule of who, what, where, why, what should be seen has to be there. What
23 we could see were the corpses. Why was the broader context not there so
24 that we would be sure of the location where this was taken? Because
25 there's not a single house, mountaintop, anything that would clearly show
1 that this was in Izbica. That was my question, and your answer was
2 because you're an amateur. And I'm not going to ask you more about that.
3 I'm going to thank you for your answers, for the answers that you
4 have provided to us, because the truth, no matter what it is deserves an
5 answer. Thank you. No further questions.
6 A. Just one thing. I wanted to add one sentence here. You said
7 that the houses cannot be seen here. Well, if you see the graves, that
8 image, you can see the houses and Izbica environment, while where the
9 dead people are lying, that is a meadow, and there are no houses there.
10 And that's why you don't see the houses. However, I will repeat again
11 that we were amateurs, and maybe we should have done it better.
12 Q. Very well. Since you've mentioned the cemetery, there were
13 freshly dug graves just before the funeral of these people. Let this
14 really be my last question for today.
15 Who were the people, do you know, who were buried in the graves
16 that can be seen that were actually there before these graves that were
17 dug up subsequently? That can be seen on satellite footage, but I'm
18 asking you about that: Can you tell us - let that be my last question -
19 who were the people who were buried in the graves before these people?
20 A. Just a second. I am looking at the question on the monitor. So
21 the question is: Who was buried here before these people? Which people
22 do you mean?
23 Q. Well, that's what I'm asking you. Do you know that?
24 A. Before?
25 Q. Before these people, there were other fresh graves there. Can
1 you tell us, who was buried in those fresh graves?
2 A. No, no. There were no fresh graves there. These were graves
3 that were dug on the 31st of March, most of them. About seven or eight
4 of the graves were opened on the 1st of April. So there was no cemetery
5 there before. This was not a gravesite. [In English] This was not a
6 gravesite. [Interpretation] So this was not a gravesite before.
7 Q. All right, all right. Thank you. Thank you very much for your
9 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.
10 Let me tell you, Your Honours, the Honourable Trial Chamber, that this
11 completes my cross-examination of Mr. Loshi.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Djordjevic.
13 Ms. Kravetz, do you have any re-examination?
14 MS. KRAVETZ: Yes, Your Honour, thank you, just a few questions.
15 Could we have Exhibit P291 up on the screen again.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I -- Your Honour, may I ask for
17 a very short break, please, if possible.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. The court officer will assist you, as
19 happened yesterday.
20 [The witness stands down]
21 [The witness takes the stand]
22 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Kravetz.
23 MS. KRAVETZ: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Re-examination by Ms. Kravetz:
25 Q. Sir, do you have the exhibit before you, 291. You were asked
1 some questions by my learned colleague regarding how this was compiled,
2 and you told us that the comments that are included in the comment field
3 in his table we have before us were provided by you. Now, having
4 recently had the opportunity to review this exhibit, are you satisfied
5 that the information contained in the comments field is accurate?
6 A. Yes.
7 MS. KRAVETZ: Could we now look at page 18 of this exhibit.
8 Q. While that is being brought up, during cross-examination you
9 mentioned that during your previous testimony in the Milutinovic case
10 there had been some confusion regarding the description of two men, and
11 it was suggested to you that these two men were members of the KLA
12 because the description referred to them wearing a military jacket or a
13 military overcoat.
14 MS. KRAVETZ: Could we zoom in on that page. Could we please
15 zoom in.
16 Q. Are you able to see those descriptions on this page, Mr. Loshi?
17 I don't know if we have --
18 A. No. It hasn't been zoomed in for me.
19 MS. KRAVETZ: Just the English for the witness, if we could zoom
21 THE WITNESS: [In English] Yeah, please, the English version.
23 "Man, grey/black sweater, military green jacket"?
24 MS. KRAVETZ:
25 Q. Yes. Are those the entries -- that was one of the entries that
1 was put to you in the previous case.
2 A. Yes. And the other one: "Man, bluish jacket, military green
3 overcoat, covered in a grey/red woolen blanket." These are the two
5 Q. Now, was the information in those two entries provided by you, or
6 was this provided by the investigator?
7 A. No. The information was, as I said, that the description was
8 done by the investigator, looking at the pictures on the screen, and then
9 typed in -- typing it down on the paper. So that was done by him, and he
10 was asking if I had a comment in addition to the descriptions. I can't
11 remember. Sometimes I may have helped him in descriptions as well, but I
12 just can't remember it because we were for a few days together. But the
13 comments were mine, and these comments, by the way, were done according
14 to what I saw and according to what I heard when he was playing the tape
15 in front of me.
16 Q. We see that next to these two entries there were no comments.
17 Does that mean that you were unable to identify either of these two
18 persons or provide any information in that regard?
19 A. That's correct. I was not able to identify these people. But if
20 you let me explain, I was a little bit confused about this military
21 green -- military -- any military -- military green jacket and military
22 green coat in these persons, in these two persons, and I was suggesting
23 by the Defence of Milutinovic, and six -- and six -- the trial of six,
24 that these people belonged to KLA. So now I understand that this is just
25 a description of their clothing; it doesn't -- it doesn't mean that these
1 people -- because if you look at these pictures, you can see easily that
2 these people have -- didn't have KLA uniforms, and these were not KLA
4 Q. Thank you. I think that clarifies the matter. Moving on to a
5 different issue now, you were asked whether the bodies that you filmed at
6 Izbica that appeared in your short video included bodies brought from
7 other places, and you said that the majority of the bodies were found in
8 two big groups and then there was a smaller third group. Now, were these
9 bodies in these two big groups and the smaller group filmed at the
10 location where you found them, you and the others who were participating
11 in this film?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Were these the bodies that we saw yesterday when we were viewing
14 the images from your video?
15 A. Excuse me? Once again.
16 Q. Were these bodies, the two large groups and the smaller group,
17 the bodies that we saw yesterday when we were --
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did any of these three groups include any bodies that were
20 brought by you or by others from other places?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Okay.
23 MS. KRAVETZ: Thank you, Your Honour. I have no further
24 questions for this witness.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Doctor, you'll be pleased to know that that
1 concludes your questioning in this trial. The Chamber would express its
2 gratitude for your attendance here and the assistance you've given. And
3 you are now, of course, free to return to your normal life and
4 activities. We will now arrange for the court officer to show you out,
5 and thank you once again.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a pleasure to be able to
7 answer the questions of both parties in this trial, and I hope that I
8 helped the Judges with my answers. Thank you.
9 [The witness withdrew]
10 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Neuner.
11 MR. NEUNER: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
12 everyone in and around the courtroom.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
14 MR. NEUNER: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
15 everyone in and around the courtroom.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Are you ready with your next witness?
17 MR. NEUNER: Yes, we are ready, Your Honours.
18 MR. DJORDJEVIC: Your Honours.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djordjevic.
20 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Before my learned colleague,
21 Mr. Neuner, begins the examination-in-chief, we received the list of
22 exhibits that will probably be admitted into evidence, that will be
23 tendered, but we would first like to look at their 65 ter list. The
24 number is P00023. It's a map of a part of Kosovo. And the routes that
25 the refugees took as they moved in Kosovo have already been drawn into
1 this map. We believe that the witness himself should make those
2 markings, should indicate where the refugees were moving, and not to be
3 merely shown a map with the markings already there, markings indicating
4 where the refugee columns were moving.
5 And this will be and is at issue in this case, and this is why I
6 would like to -- not to admit this exhibit. I am not opposed to the
7 admission of this part of Kosovo, the map of this part of Kosovo, with
8 Orahovac, Prizren, and Djakovica. I don't think it would be proper and
9 it would be, in fact, tantamount to leading the witness, because the
10 witness would then be compelled to confirm and to provide an answer that
11 is already contained in the map.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Neuner.
13 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, I have heard what the Defence said,
14 and at this point in time, the document P23 has been put on the list of
15 exhibits eventually to be shown, but this doesn't mean that the exhibit,
16 indeed, will be shown. So I would suggest that my learned friend can put
17 his objection on the record if the Prosecution intends to show the
18 document, which it's not certain at this point in time.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Well, if you seek to do it, Mr. Neuner, the
20 objection is made, and there is some validity in it.
21 MR. NEUNER: I will try to elicit answers from the witness that I
22 don't have to use that particular exhibit, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Or you may need to show him a blank map, if you
24 feel some depiction is necessary.
25 MR. NEUNER: Yeah, we have thought about this alternative course
1 of action, and there is 65 ter number 0035 also on this list and there --
2 this is -- there are some documents -- excuse me --
3 JUDGE PARKER: We leave it to you, Mr. Neuner, to decide what to
4 do about it. Just be aware that there is an objection to your use of
5 this Rule 65 ter exhibit.
6 MR. NEUNER: Thank you, Your Honours.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. Would you please read aloud the
9 affirmation that is shown to you on the card.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I solemnly declare that I
11 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
12 WITNESS: LIZANE MALAJ
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Please sit down.
15 Examination by Mr. Neuner:
16 Q. Good morning. Could you state your name for the record, please.
17 A. Lizane Malaj.
18 Q. And, Ms. Malaj, you were born on the 16th of April, 1963, in
19 Guska, Djakovica municipality, were you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you're a Kosovo Albanian of Catholic faith.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And in 1982, at the age of 19 you married Vat Malaj.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And you moved to Korenica then, where your husband worked as a
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. NEUNER: Could we please have 65 ter Exhibit 615.02 pulled up
4 on the screen.
5 Q. And while that is happening, Ms. Malaj, how many families were
6 living in Korenica?
7 A. As far as I know there were 70 houses at the time.
8 Q. And roughly how many persons were living in Korenica?
9 A. I don't know exactly.
10 Q. But it's not a huge town; it's rather a village, isn't it?
11 A. Yes, it is a village.
12 MR. NEUNER: I'm waiting for the exhibit to pop up. We just
13 would need one screen here.
14 Q. Could you mark, with the assistance of the usher, where your
15 village, Korenica, is located, please, by drawing an arrow towards your
17 A. Yes. The village of Korenice
18 Q. Can you draw an arrow, please.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 A. I don't think it came out as I expected.
22 MR. NEUNER: The witness has, for the record, underlined one of
23 the names in which Korenica was written on this map.
24 Q. Could you mark where your family courtyard was in Korenica,
25 please, your family house, by encircling the location.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Can you mark a little bit wider circle because --
3 MR. NEUNER: Can we maybe remove, because I think it's not very
4 legible, can we maybe start afresh by just removing the markings made.
5 Q. And if you now could mark a little bit broader circle at the
6 location where you believe your family compound or your family courtyard
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. Thank you. And can you mark a 1 next to this, please, the number
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that your brother Nikoll Kabashi was
13 also living with his family in another house in this family courtyard?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And by March 1999, how many children did you have?
16 A. I had five children.
17 Q. What's the name of your oldest child?
18 A. Blerim Malaj.
19 Q. I want to take you now to the tensions in 1998. Can you tell us,
20 when did you see for the first time Serbian forces in your area?
21 A. In the spring, in May.
22 Q. In which year?
23 A. 1998.
24 Q. And what did you see?
25 A. We saw tanks, AP Cs, Pinzgauers.
1 Q. Can you mark on this map where you saw these tanks, APCs, and
2 Pinzgauers, please.
3 A. On the road from Gjakove to Junik.
4 Q. Could you mark the location, please.
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. NEUNER: For the record, the witness has marked four lines
7 next to a grey road.
8 Q. And can you mark a 2 next to these four lines, please.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What else did you observe in the spring of 1998, near your house?
11 A. Near my house I saw some infantry soldiers or forces,
12 paramilitaries, police.
13 Q. Could you mark for us the location of these forces, please, by
14 drawing a circle and a 3 next to this.
15 A. Yes. Somewhere here, then. This is the house and ...
16 MR. NEUNER: Since both circles are so close to each other, for
17 the record, the witness has marked above the circle which was mentioned
18 with number 1 another circle and added the number 3 to it.
19 Q. And in the summer of 1998, where did you stay overnight?
20 A. We usually went to Guska, which is the neighbouring village. The
21 men left home and went to the mountains above our houses.
22 Q. Why did you leave and the men leave the family houses in the
23 summer of 1998 at night?
24 A. For protection reasons.
25 Q. Protection against what?
1 A. Protection from the Serbian forces.
2 Q. What were the Serbian forces doing?
3 A. At that time almost nothing happened in our village, but we left
4 because we could see forces there that were on the main road, and they
5 were shooting from different positions.
6 Q. Shooting at what?
7 A. They were shooting at Ramoc, Nec, and other villages that were
8 close to ours.
9 Q. Can you mark Ramoc and Nec. Please encircle Ramoc first.
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. And mark a 4 next to it.
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. And now Nec, please, and mark a 5 next to it.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. I want to move on to the events in 1999 now, to be precise on
16 Easter Monday. What information did you learn at the end of March 1999?
17 A. On the Easter Monday, it was the 4th of April Milutin Prascevic
18 came --
19 Q. Can I just stop you here. Because I will come to the 4th of
20 April in a second. I was asking you about the end of March, a few days
21 before that, 4th of April. Do you remember what happened at the end of
22 March 1999?
23 A. Yes. At that time Dragan Micunovic ordered a 15-year-old boy
24 named Gjon Prelaj to separate men from the women, to tell them to leave
25 for the mountains, and they wanted to move us to different locations by
1 buses and other vehicles. But on the same day the men were again ordered
2 to return to their homes. My son Blerim Malaj went with him. He was
3 forced to go with him.
4 Q. Can you just explain who was ordered? You said "us." Who was
5 ordered by Dragan Micunovic?
6 A. The villages of Korenice, all the men. Those who were in the
7 village, he ordered them to leave the village, the men, and the women
8 were ordered to remain there in their houses and later to be directed to
9 different locations.
10 Q. And who was Dragan Micunovic?
11 A. He was the only one in our village. We had good relations with
12 him, all of the villagers, until he gave us the order to leave.
13 Q. Can you explain, you said he was the only one in our village.
14 What ethnicity did Dragan Micunovic have?
15 A. He was a Serb.
16 Q. And what ethnicity did the other villagers in Korenica have?
17 A. They were Albanians.
18 Q. And what was the position of Dragan Micunovic in March 1999?
19 A. He was in the Yugoslav Army. He was an officer, but I don't know
20 his exact position.
21 Q. Okay. And what happened on Easter Monday, the 4th of April,
23 A. On that day Milutin Prascevic, with other police colleagues, came
24 to the transformer in Korenice, near Engjull Berisha's house and went to
25 the house of the Dedaj family, and there they ordered the people to leave
1 within three hours. This is what we did. We followed their order.
2 Q. Can you, first of all, tell us who is Milutin Prascevic?
3 A. He was a Serb.
4 Q. I note the transcript has two spellings for his family name. Can
5 you clarify -- or can you spell his last name.
6 A. Milutin Prascevic.
7 Q. Thank you. And what was his job?
8 A. I don't know. I simply know that he was a policeman, but I don't
9 know his function.
10 Q. Why do you think he was a policeman?
11 A. He was a policeman. He was to my house -- he came to my house
12 with another policeman wearing a uniform, armed, and ordered us to leave
13 the house and leave the cars behind, only take the tractors with us. And
14 we followed his orders.
15 Q. Can you tell me, what was Mr. Prascevic wearing when he came to
16 your house? What clothes?
17 A. Blue.
18 Q. And were these civilian clothes or ...
19 A. No, no. It was a uniform.
20 Q. And did you notice anything else on what Mr. Prascevic or his
21 colleagues were wearing?
22 A. The weapons. He was armed.
23 Q. And what arms did the gentleman wear?
24 A. Automatic rifles, everything that they wear as personal weapons.
25 I don't know all their names. I know that this one, the automatic rifle
1 or the machine-gun, he was wearing it on his arm and the pistol was on
2 his side.
3 Q. Did the gentleman tell you why you were ordered to leave that
5 A. He told us to leave the place because we were Albanians. For
6 what other reason?
7 Q. And where did he tell you to go?
8 A. To Albania
9 Q. And you mentioned before that the gentleman also went to other
10 houses inside Korenica. What was the reaction of the villagers in
11 Korenica to these suggestions or orders?
12 A. They started leaving their houses immediately. A convoy was
13 immediately formed.
14 Q. And how many persons were in that convoy?
15 A. The entire village, I don't know the exact number.
16 Q. Okay. You mentioned before vehicles which you possessed. What
17 vehicles did you take with you that day?
18 A. We didn't dare take the cars with us. We just took the tractor.
19 Q. So at what point in time of the 4th of April, 1999, did the
20 convoy leave Korenica?
21 A. On the same day at Suhadoll, a kilometre further, Aca Micunovic
22 came there with a colleague. I don't know who the colleague was, but I
23 could recognise Aca. He ordered us to go back to the village.
24 Q. Can you just before answer my previous question. At what point
25 in time did you leave Korenica?
1 A. Sometime in the afternoon.
2 Q. Okay. And then you went to Suhadoll.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you, looking at the map, indicate by encircling the location
5 where Suhadoll is.
6 A. Suhadoll is here.
7 Q. You have drawn a circle on the grey street. Can you mark a
8 number 6 next to Suhadoll.
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. And who was Aca Micunovic?
11 A. He was Dragan's brother.
12 Q. Can you tell us what Aca Micunovic's job was?
13 A. At that time he was a local policeman.
14 Q. And where did he work?
15 A. He was a village policeman. I don't know where he worked.
16 Q. And what happened following his announcements or his -- the
18 A. We returned to our houses and nothing happened to us until the
19 27th of April.
20 Q. Okay. What I want to know from you is when you had left on the
21 4th of April in the afternoon Korenica, did you and your family leave
23 A. No. We were forced to.
24 Q. Who forced you?
25 A. Milutin Prascevic.
1 Q. Did you know at the time in early 1999 that the NATO bombings had
2 already started in Kosovo?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Had any of the NATO bombing affected your village, Korenica, by
5 the 4th of April, 1999?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Was it because of NATO that you left the village on the afternoon
8 of the 4th of April?
9 A. No, no.
10 Q. I want to move on to the 27th of April, 1999. What happened that
12 A. It was a horrible, horrible day. It was a Tuesday. At 5.00 in
13 the morning, the Serbian forces surrounded the village, the whole
14 village, early in the morning. At 7.30 they came to my courtyard.
15 Q. Can you just explain which village you're referring to.
16 A. Korenice.
17 Q. And who came at 7.30 to your courtyard?
18 A. The Serb forces, soldiers, paramilitaries, policemen, all of
19 them. They had ribbons on their arms.
20 Q. What colour were the ribbons?
21 A. Red.
22 Q. And roughly how many men were coming to your courtyard?
23 A. Thirty-five. There were 35 around my house.
24 Q. Okay. And roughly how many men were wearing these red ribbons?
25 A. I don't know the number, but there were many of them.
1 Q. Okay. What clothes did the gentlemen wear?
2 A. Blue camouflage, green camouflage, dark green.
3 Q. Was anybody in civilian clothes or only people in camouflage at
4 your courtyard?
5 A. There was nobody in civilian clothes. All of them were dressed
6 in camouflage uniforms.
7 Q. And what language did the gentlemen speak?
8 A. Serbian.
9 Q. Can you describe what they wore on their faces, if anything.
10 A. Some of them had masks; their faces were covered. Some of them
11 had their faces painted, and some, normal.
12 Q. And what weapons, if any, did the gentlemen wear?
13 A. Automatic rifles, machine-guns, and I don't know all the names of
14 these weapons. Whatever type of weapon there was and existed, they had
16 Q. And how did the gentlemen arrive to your courtyard?
17 A. On tanks, Pinzgauer, and there was also on foot.
18 Q. Can you describe the colour of the tanks or the Pinzgauers.
19 A. There were green and blue, the two types.
20 Q. Plain or camouflage?
21 A. That I don't remember. I was horrified.
22 Q. Any markings, symbols, on the tanks or Pinzgauers?
23 A. Some of them, the people, they had the red ribbons tied on their
24 arms. This is what we noticed.
25 Q. I was asking whether any symbols were marked on the vehicles with
1 which the gentlemen arrived.
2 A. The Serbian symbol.
3 Q. And what did the Serbian symbol say? If you don't remember --
4 A. Their flag was on them, the flag of the former Yugoslavia.
5 Q. So what happened when the gentlemen arrived?
6 A. My son, Blerim Malaj, at the time of their arrival was in the
7 toilet outside. They spotted him the first, immediately, and made him
8 lie on the ground. They were shouting and yelling. My husband went out,
9 and they told my husband to call on us, all of us, and tell us to come
10 outside, so this is what he did. He called on us; we came all outside.
11 And when I was in the courtyard I saw my son lying on the ground, my son
13 Q. If I can just stop you here. How old was your son Blerim that
15 A. Fifteen and a half.
16 Q. Please carry on.
17 A. I started to scream because they had made him lie down, and a
18 soldier or a policeman - I cannot describe him - he was holding him at
19 gunpoint, and he ordered my son to turn his head on the other side so
20 that he could not see me. This is what my son did. Then they stopped my
21 husband, my nephew, my brother --
22 Q. Can I just stop you for a second, please. You said a gentleman
23 held your son at gunpoint. What did he have in his hands, this
25 A. He had an automatic rifle, a weapon with a long barrel, and he
1 was holding that on my son's head.
2 Q. So he was very close to your son, in fact.
3 A. Yes, yes. On his head, very close to him.
4 Q. What did the gentleman with the automatic rifle wear?
5 A. Blue camouflage.
6 Q. Then you mentioned already your husband. Can you please
7 continue? I had interrupted you.
8 A. My husband Vat Malaj was also forced to lie on the ground. There
9 were three vehicles nearby; one car belongs to us and two to my brothers.
10 They asked for the keys, the car keys. We didn't have them. My
11 brother's cars, my husband and Arben Kabashi were forced to show them how
12 they can use the wires to start the car, and after that they were again
13 ordered to lay on the ground.
14 Q. Meaning Vat Malaj and Arben Kabashi also were lying on the
15 ground, having been to the cars in the meantime?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What happened in relation to the house of your brother
18 Nikoll Kabashi?
19 A. A policeman with a blue camouflage uniform went to that house,
20 opened the door -- broke down the door and forced Nikoll and all his
21 family out, asked for their personal documents. Nikoll and Andrush
22 provided him with the -- their IDs, while Nikoll's wife, his daughters
23 and son, they were all ordered to go outside, while Nikoll and Andrush
24 were forced to lie on the ground.
25 Q. Who was Andrush Kabashi?
1 A. My nephew, my brother's son, Nikoll Kabashi's son.
2 Q. How old was he in 1999?
3 A. Eighteen, Andrush.
4 Q. So overall your family and Nikoll Kabashi's family were in the
5 courtyard. How many people were there, meaning Albanian -- Kosovo
6 Albanian people?
7 A. Seventeen.
8 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, I note the time. Maybe this is a good
9 point for the break.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We will have a break now and resume in
11 half an hour.
12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
13 JUDGE PARKER: I'm reminded, Mr. Neuner, before we break that
14 there hasn't been an exhibit made of the map that was marked.
15 MR. NEUNER: Correct. Your Honours, I was intending to ask the
16 witness at some later point in time to mark one additional circle on it.
17 That's why I didn't ask for it to be tendered now.
18 JUDGE PARKER: The problem is that we are likely, then, to lose
19 all the present markings because of time delay.
20 MR. NEUNER: Then I would ask that it be tendered now, Your
22 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00294, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We'll have the break now and resume in
25 half an hour, at 1.00.
1 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Neuner.
4 MR. NEUNER:
5 Q. Before the break you told us that there were 17 Kosovo Albanians
6 in your courtyard on the 27th of April, in the morning. Could you tell
7 me, had any of these 17 persons any weapons?
8 A. No, none of them.
9 Q. Were the 35 men who were coming to your courtyard searching for
11 A. No, they didn't search for weapons.
12 Q. So what happened after Nikoll and Andrush and Arben Kabashi and
13 your husband, Vat, and your son Blerim were told to lay down? What
14 happened next?
15 A. We were ordered to leave the house and walk ourselves to Albania
16 Q. Who are you referring to by "we"?
17 A. My family, the 17 of us, brothers, nephews. Nikoll's family and
18 my husband's family, Arben's family.
19 Q. Who, if anybody, stayed behind in the compound of your family, in
20 the courtyard?
21 A. Only the five of them; my husband Vat, Blerim, Nikoll, Andrush
22 and Arben, because they were held there, nobody else. And immediately
23 after that I heard the gun-shots and I heard screams, which was a scream
24 that was horrible, and it was my son's voice that I heard.
25 Q. Can you mention the name of your -- the given name of your son?
1 A. Blerim Malaj.
2 Q. And how far were you away when you heard the gun-shots and your
3 son Blerim?
4 A. About 50 metres away. I tried to go back but one of them did not
5 let me return.
6 Q. Who did not let you return?
7 A. A policeman who was sitting on a tank.
8 Q. And why do you believe he was a policeman?
9 A. He was. He was wearing blue clothes. How do I know? He said,
10 It's better for you to continue on your way. He pointed the gun at me,
11 on my chest.
12 Q. Can you just, coming back to the clothes he wore, clarify. Were
13 they civilian clothes he was wearing?
14 A. No. It was a uniform.
15 Q. And what exactly did he tell you?
16 A. I tried to go back to the courtyard to see my son, my husband,
17 and he said, You'd better go with your children than go back and be
18 executed or killed. One of the children who was with me, Bekim, he is
19 here, he took my hand and said, Please, mom, don't leave us alone. Come
20 with us. And because of the children I decided to go back.
21 Q. And did the policeman tell you where to go? Where to?
22 A. He ordered me to go to Albania
23 Q. What did you observe about your houses when you were trying to
24 look back?
25 A. The houses were on fire. I could see the smoke. And the ones
1 that were lying on the ground, they had been executed.
2 Q. But you didn't see that they had been executed.
3 A. No, not at that moment when I was present. But when I turned my
4 back, immediately after that it happened, and I heard my son's voice.
5 Q. I was asking about the houses, and you said they were in flames.
6 Could you tell me which houses you saw in flames?
7 A. My houses and all the houses in the village.
8 Q. On your compound there was also, you had told us, the house of
9 your brother Nikoll. What did you observe about that house?
10 A. It was on fire as well.
11 Q. And where did you go?
12 A. We took the main road, Korenice-Gjakove.
13 Q. Can I ask you what you observed within the village, first of all?
14 You mentioned there were some houses in flames. What exactly did you
16 A. We could see the houses set on fire. Families -- other families
17 from the villages, the Binakus, the Kamberis, from my neighbourhood, had
18 left their homes. They were all leaving. Women and children were on the
19 road, and the men had been held in their courtyards. That's what they
20 said, and that's what happened.
21 Q. How many houses did you see burning, roughly, that day?
22 A. As far as I could see, they started with our family first, the
23 Malaj family, but the total number of houses was about 10 or 15 at the
24 same time that were set on fire. All of them were on fire.
25 Q. And you said you took the main road, Korenice-Gjakove.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Who, if anybody, was escorting you?
3 A. The army, the police, they were lining the road, and they were
4 forcing us to walk on and not stop anywhere.
5 Q. Okay. How many persons were in your group?
6 A. A lot of us. Quite a few. I can't give you an exact number.
7 But we were among the first.
8 MR. NEUNER: Can we, with the usher's assistance, pull up the map
9 which was shown earlier, P294, which has been admitted as P294.
10 Q. Were there people only coming from Korenica who joined the group,
11 or were there people also coming from other villages that day?
12 A. That day there were people from other villages as well, such as
13 Guska. There were people who were staying there in Guska. The whole
14 village of Guska had left, but also other -- people from other villages
15 were leaving, such as Junik, people from Gjakove, Skivjane, and they were
16 on the road to Prizren.
17 Q. Can you, first of all, mark the direction of your movement on
18 this map. Where did you go to?
19 A. Yes. We went towards Albania
20 Prizren-Verbica, and then to the border with Albania.
21 Q. I think that's enough. You went towards Gjakove, yeah?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And can you explain the direction by drawing some arrows the way
24 the villagers were coming.
25 A. Yes. People were from Guska. Guska is here.
1 Q. Can you next to the cross you marked there, mark the number 7,
2 please, where you believe Guska is.
3 A. Yes, I will write the number here. Thank you.
4 Q. Maybe just if you could -- we see here on the map Korenica. If
5 you start to draw an arrow to the right of Korenica, to the right of the
6 number 6, what you had marked as Suhadoll earlier, towards Djakovica, an
7 arrow to indicate your movement, first of all.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. Yes. And can you now mark from where the villagers came who
10 joined your convoy.
11 A. From Skivjane -- would you like me to circle it?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. So Skivjane.
14 Q. Can you mark the direction of movement from Skivjan.
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. Yes. Next to Skivjan could you please mark an 8.
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. Thank you. Which other places?
19 A. From Gjakove.
20 Q. You yourself went to Djakovica. You just encircled it. Please
21 mark a 9 next to your circle.
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. You mentioned to us you went to Djakovica. Could you tell us,
24 were there any check-points along the road from Korenica towards
1 A. Yes. Towards the Tabaku bridge, Ura e Tabakeve.
2 Q. Could you mark or encircle the location of the check-point and
3 mark a 10 next to it, please.
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. And who was manning that check-point on that day?
6 A. The forces, the Serb forces, police, soldiers.
7 Q. And having been at the check-point, where -- in which direction
8 did you proceed?
9 A. As soon as we got there, we were not allowed to go anywhere else,
10 so we continued straight to Prizren.
11 Q. Could you mark on this map where Prizren -- which direction
12 Prizren is, only by drawing an arrow pointing towards Prizren indicating
13 your movement.
14 Prizren is not on this map, just that you show us which direction
15 you were moving.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you make this an arrow, please.
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. Okay. And from Djakovica which direction did you move, north,
20 south, east, west?
21 A. East.
22 Q. Okay. Can you just mark with an arrow east of Djakovica in which
23 direction you were moving.
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. Could you mark an arrow east of Djakovica? I mean you're always
1 marking the city centre of Djakovica here, but could you mark east of
2 Djakovica to indicate the direction of movement, behind Djakovica.
3 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have to
5 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
6 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I believe that the Prosecutor
7 does not have the right to lead the witness, telling her where to put the
8 arrow. She must put the arrow where she thinks it should be, to the best
9 of her knowledge.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djordjevic, I saw no sign of the Prosecution
11 leading the witness. He was trying to get a more clear indication drawn
12 by the witness of the direction of a major geographic centre, so that I
13 don't think there is an issue there. Thank you.
14 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I agree with this, Your Honour,
15 but I don't think that he should say, Draw the arrow to the east. He
16 should say, Draw the arrow where you actually went. But I do agree that
17 this must be clarified.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on, please, Mr. Neuner.
19 MR. NEUNER: Can I ask that this map be tendered, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE PARKER: With the further markings, it will be received.
21 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00295, Your Honours.
22 MR. NEUNER:
23 Q. What I would like to learn is, when you left Korenica on the 27th
24 of April, 1999, to proceed on this way you have just drawn for us, did
25 you leave voluntarily?
1 A. No. We were forced.
2 Q. On that day, the 27th of April, 1999, were there any NATO
3 air-strikes which targeted Korenica?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Any air-strikes from NATO which targeted the wider region west of
7 A. No, not that day.
8 Q. So what was the real reason that you left Korenica that day?
9 A. The truth is that we were forced out. Our husbands and sons were
10 held, nephews as well, and we were told to leave. We were not allowed to
11 stay. And they were killed.
12 MR. NEUNER: I want to have 65 ter number 615, and there page 22,
13 being shown now. And this is a map, again. I just need one image on the
14 screen. Yes. Maybe we can focus on the area between Djakovica and
15 Prizren, because the witness has shown us -- yes, thank you.
16 Q. Could you now mark the area or the streets -- the direction of
17 your movement from Djakovica, please.
18 A. Can you zoom in, please.
19 MR. NEUNER: Can we zoom in a little bit further. I think
20 Djakovica can go on the upper part of this image. Yes.
21 Q. I hope that's sufficient.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. It must not be a hundred percent precise. The important point is
24 that you indicate being at Djakovica, where you went. What was the next
25 major town to which you went?
1 A. This road.
2 Q. If you could just mark along the road with your pencil to where
3 you went.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Just by drawing a straight line, this would be the best.
6 A. A full line, not interrupted?
7 Q. A full line is maybe the easiest. Correct.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. And to which major town did you finally come to?
10 A. Can we erase this? Yeah, in the direction of Prizren. I made a
11 mistake. Sorry, I didn't see Prizren here.
12 MR. NEUNER: Is that possible? The witness has drawn -- can we
13 erase that? I think she's -- okay.
14 Q. We'll start afresh. So if you could, afresh, just mark by
15 drawing a straight line.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay, thank you. Can you, by marking an arrow, just
18 indicating -- indicate the direction of movement.
19 A. You mean from Prizren onwards?
20 Q. No, from Djakovica onwards. Which direction did you move?
21 A. So from Gjakove, all right.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MR. NEUNER: Could I ask that this map is tendered, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00296, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
2 MR. NEUNER: We have a further map, but it doesn't show Prizren
3 on it, so I would just ask a few questions.
4 Q. From Prizren, where did you proceed to?
5 A. Towards the border.
6 Q. With?
7 A. At Morina.
8 Q. To which --
9 A. Prizren, Verbica and Cafe Morina.
10 Q. And the border is between Kosovo where you were and which state,
12 A. And Kosova, former Yugoslavia
13 Q. Yes. You were in Kosovo, obviously, but the border faces which
14 other country, please?
15 A. Albania
16 Q. Okay. Throughout all your way from Korenica towards the border
17 to Kosovo -- border to Albania
18 your directions?
19 A. No, we didn't have this possibility. They didn't allow us.
20 Q. Who is "they" who did not allow you?
21 A. The forces, the Serb forces.
22 Q. And could you be a little bit more precise, which type of forces,
23 Serb forces, you're talking about?
24 A. Police, paramilitary. We were escorted by them up to the border,
25 and they didn't give us even five minutes for rest or to have something
1 to eat or drink. They didn't allow us to sit anywhere for a rest.
2 Q. Did you make any attempt to change your direction?
3 A. That was impossible.
4 Q. But my question was: Did you yourself or your group try to
5 change the direction, to go somewhere else than to Prizren and the border
6 to Albania
7 A. Yes. When we were at Gjakove, at the part near the hospital, we
8 attempted to leave. We called the priest. We call him Father Marijan.
9 I don't know his last name. We thought that we would go to Rac or Mulic,
10 but the police didn't let us. They just said, You either go straight to
12 Either to go to Albania
13 let us go to any other direction.
14 Q. And what happened -- what, if anything, happened at the border to
15 the ID documents, the identification documents, passports, et cetera?
16 A. They asked for the identification documents. Those who had them
17 on them, they did give them. I didn't have one. Those who had tractors
18 were forced to remove the registration plates from their tractors.
19 Q. Can you tell me, who is "they" who asked for the documents and
20 registration plates?
21 A. The police, those that serve at the border.
22 Q. And are we talking about the police being on the Kosovar side of
23 the border or about the police being on the Albanian side of the border?
24 A. The policemen on the Kosovar side of the border.
25 Q. At what time did you receive leave Korenica on the 27th of April,
2 A. At 7.30. At 8.00 we were already on the main road, and we left
3 our house at 7.30 in the morning.
4 Q. And at what time did you reach Vrbica or the border near Vrbica
5 or Cafe Morina, the border to Albania
6 A. On the 28th of April, at 1.00 p.m. Around 12.00 or 1.00 p.m.
7 Q. So you went to Albania
8 A. On the 3rd of July, 1999.
9 Q. How did the houses in your courtyard in Korenica look like?
10 A. They were burnt down, destroyed, and one could no longer live in
12 Q. You had mentioned that on the 27th of April, 1999, there were
13 three vehicles belonging to the families in the courtyard, in the
14 courtyard in Korenica. I'm referring to the vehicles of your brother and
15 of your own family. What happened to these vehicles -- what did you see
16 or observe about these vehicles?
17 A. These cars were burnt down. One of them, which was just in front
18 of my gate, it was an Audi make, they tried to take it with them but they
19 couldn't, and they set it on fire. And the other two cars, one belonging
20 to my husband and one to my brother, they were both Mercedes make, they
21 were burnt inside the courtyard. And there was a tree also in the
22 courtyard, and it was burnt down, too.
23 Q. What was the condition of the house of your brother Nikoll?
24 A. Burnt down.
25 Q. Was it inhabitable when you saw it again?
1 A. No, it wasn't.
2 Q. When and what did you learn about the fate of your five relatives
3 that you had left and last seen in your courtyard on the 27th of April,
4 1999? If you could please start with your husband, Vat Malaj.
5 A. According to ICRC and the examinations, we were informed that his
6 body was found at Batanice. His funeral took place on the 17th of April,
7 2004. This was very hard news for me.
8 My son, Blerim Malaj, I was informed of him a year later, on the
9 27th of April, 2005, when he was reburied. His body was recovered at
11 My brother Nikoll Kabashi, his -- we collected his body together
12 with my son's body on the same day, on the 27th of April.
13 My nephew Arben Kabashi, Sokol Kabashi's son - Sokol Kabashi is
14 my eldest brother - on the 14th of December, 2005, was reburied. That's
15 when we got his body. Andrush Kabashi, too, was reburied on the 27th of
17 We received all these bodies from Batanice. I saw all of them,
18 identified them, and we reburied them.
19 Q. Where did you see these bodies?
20 A. We collected the bodies in Rahovec. That's where the location
21 was, where these bodies were brought to. This is where we first saw him,
22 in Rahovec, and we took them from there.
23 Q. And do you know who transported the bodies to Orahovac?
24 A. The International Red Cross.
25 Q. Okay. Could you just tell in which year you were informed about
1 your brother Nikoll Kabashi? You mentioned the date, 27 of April, but
2 not the year.
3 A. 2005.
4 Q. Thank you. You mentioned that all bodies were found in
5 Batajnica. In what state lies Batajnica?
6 A. In Serbia
7 MR. NEUNER: For Your Honours' reference, all the names of the
8 victims just mentioned by our witness, these names are mentioned in
9 Schedule H of our indictment.
10 Q. What I wanted to ask you, Ms. Malaj, is you mentioned a couple of
11 other families in relation to Korenica; for example, the Dedaj family.
12 What, if anything, has happened to the Dedaj family on the 27th of April,
14 A. The Dedaj family, on this day, took refuge to the mountains. My
15 younger brother Jakob Kabashi, my mother, Marika Kabashi, they stayed
16 there, too. They went to the mountains. The first attack was on my
17 family because my house is just before the Dedaj family houses. They
18 survived, the whole family. My mother, my younger brother, they all
19 survived because they fled to the mountains.
20 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Merita Dedaj?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you know the name of her father?
23 A. Mark.
24 Q. What happened to Mark Dedaj?
25 A. He was also killed in Korenice.
1 Q. When?
2 A. On the 27th of April.
3 Q. Which year?
4 A. 1999.
5 Q. And can you tell us, how did you learn about this fact?
6 A. The remains of these victims all came from Batanice. She
7 reburied her father's remains, too.
8 Q. And where did she bury her father's remains, if you know?
9 A. In Guska.
10 Q. And where are the five relatives or family members of your family
11 buried nowadays?
12 A. In Meje.
13 Q. Thank you for answering all my questions.
14 MR. NEUNER: The Prosecution has no further questions at this
15 point in time.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Neuner.
17 It is now the time we must finish for the day to allow another
18 trial to continue, so we will adjourn now. We continue tomorrow in the
19 afternoon at 2.15, and I expect it will be in Courtroom I.
20 So if you can understand, we must now adjourn because another
21 trial continues here, but we will continue your evidence tomorrow in the
22 afternoon. People will look after you until then. Thank you.
23 We now adjourn.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.
25 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 11th day of
1 February, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.