1 Friday, 13 February 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. Please be seated.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
8 JUDGE PARKER: The affirmation you made at the beginning of your
9 evidence to tell the truth still applies, Mr. Krasniqi.
10 Yes, Mr. Stamp.
11 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honours.
12 WITNESS: MEHMET KRASNIQI [Resumed]
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 Examination by Mr. Stamp: [Continued]
15 Q. Good morning, Mr. Krasniqi. Yesterday, you told us that
16 having crossed --
17 A. Good morning.
18 Q. -- the border into Albania
19 you received some medical treatment.
20 A. Yes. I'd like to show you a couple clips from a video that
21 depicts you while you were in Kukes with your injuries.
22 MR. STAMP: Could we, Your Honour, move on to play a clip from
23 the video with the number 02343.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 "UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Today is the 4th of April, 1999
1 ten to 8.00 in the evening. We are here at Kukes with the witness,
2 Mehmed Avdyli. He is a witness that comes from Kosovo, from the village
3 of Krusa e Vogel. He sustained -- allegedly sustained these injuries,
4 burn injuries from being put into a house by Serb policemen, and
5 eventually surviving the attack where 110 people perished. They were
6 shot and burned to death. We are now in a position to place the injuries
7 on video tape for further evidence. Can you tell me what your name is?
8 "MEHMED AVDYLI: Mehmet Avdyli.
9 "UNKNOWN VOICE: And where do you come from?
10 "MEHMED AVDYLI: Krusha e Vogel, [indiscernible]."
11 MR. STAMP: Thank you. With your leave, Your Honour, may I move
12 on to clip 2, which I think is shorter than clip 1.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honours.
15 Q. That is a video of the 4th of April showing the burn injuries on
16 your face and your hands. The person who was speaking on the video
17 referred to 110 men who were killed in Krusha e Vogel. I'd like to ask
18 you this first. Do you recall on that day giving a statement to the
19 investigators of the ICTY?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. STAMP: Your Honour, as I indicated yesterday, the statement
22 is part of P 2341, which I don't propose to tender the entire statement
23 into evidence but just the part that I want to use to refresh his memory
24 as to who the men were. So with your leave, Your Honour, I think the
25 best way to go through with this --
1 JUDGE PARKER: Have the witness look at the statement. There's a
2 good starting point, Mr. Stamp.
3 MR. STAMP: Yes, but I would like to have the English version
4 which he signed, as the customary situation, on the screen for Your
5 Honours, and I hand him the Albanian interpretation as well as a copy of
6 the English version, so he could have a look at those while Your Honours
7 have the benefit of seeing the copy, signed copy in English. If I could
8 proceed that with your leave, Your Honour.
9 Mr. Usher, could I hand to you these two.
10 May I indicate to my friends for the Defence that the B/C/S copy
11 of this statement is at page 10 of the e-court B/C/S translation of the
13 This is page 1, this is English, and I think for Mr. Djordjevic
14 you could give him a copy of the B/C/S.
15 I was just reminded, Your Honours, may I tender those two
16 video-clips and accept them, received in evidence.
17 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received as one exhibit.
18 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00303, Your Honours.
19 MR. STAMP:
20 Q. You could have a look through that document before you,
21 Mr. Krasniqi. That's the --
22 MR. STAMP: Excuse me, Mr. Usher. Could you --
23 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, please -- yes, yes.
24 MR. STAMP: This is P2341, and I'd like you to take us straight
25 to page 10 of the English in e-court.
1 Q. While we're waiting for the document to come up on the screen,
2 Mr. Krasniqi, you could look at the signed document on your right. You
3 could look at the various pages to see where you have signed.
4 A. Yes, I did see them.
5 MR. STAMP: It seems -- while we are waiting for that to come up
6 on the screen, Your Honours, may I press along and then return to that
8 Q. Were you eventually reunited with your family, Mr. Krasniqi?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Where had they gone to?
11 A. They had gone to a village close to Berat.
12 Q. And Berat is in which country?
13 A. In Albania
14 Q. And in what sort of condition were they living in that village?
15 A. Not very good conditions, of course. It was not our home. They
16 were refugees, all of them. When they saw me, however, because they had
17 heard that I had died, when they saw me that appeared there alive, they
18 were very, very happy. They were very happy that I had survived the
20 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Stamp, your microphone.
21 MR. STAMP: [Microphone not activated]... enter in some printed
22 version since on the -- electronic system is not up this morning.
23 Q. Now, after -- I'll withdraw it. May I put it this way, did you
24 sat some point return to Krusha e Vogel with your family?
25 A. I went back on the 26th of June together with my family.
1 Q. Now, the various -- the several men, 110 we're told in that
2 video, who were in the barn with you.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you see any of them again?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can you remember who you saw? How many survived from the barn,
7 do you know?
8 A. When I went back to Krusha e Vogel, I saw that five other people
9 had survived: Lutfi Ramadani, Agim Asllani, Qamil Shehu, Bajram Zylfiu,
10 and Petrit Rashkaj. All five had survived the massacre as well.
11 Q. The remaining men numbering over 100, did you ever see them
13 A. No.
14 Q. And you're from that village, you know their family and their
15 relatives. Do you know if their family and their relatives ever saw them
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did you go and have a look at the house and the barn where the
19 execution took place?
20 A. Yes. I went together with my family, and all the people went
21 there to see. About every five minutes, people would come to see what
22 had happened there, what was left there. They couldn't find anything,
23 just some bones and a pair of shoes that were burned, and also, the
24 wheelchair of Sait Hajdari, who was disabled, because they had taken
25 away everything, and they had blown up the place, both rooms.
1 Q. I'm going to ask you to tell us, just what do you mean by "they
2 had taken away everything"? What had they taken away?
3 A. The house was not there. The ashes were not there -- were not
4 there. Everything had been cleaned up.
5 Q. And when you say the place had the been blown up, what do you
6 mean by that?
7 A. They had mined the place. Both rooms were now holes. The
8 foundations, everything, the walls, everything had been blown up.
9 Q. And where did you see the bones and the shoes?
10 A. Some of the villagers who had come earlier before me to Krusha e
11 Vogel had collected those things and had put them on the side of the
13 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, with your leave, could I show to the
14 witness 00100. That's 65 ter 00100. These are photos of the area that
15 the witness just described taken --
16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
17 MR. STAMP: Oh, there might be problems with the -- well, let's
18 see if this one comes up.
19 Q. What does this photograph before you depict, Mr. Krasniqi?
20 A. This picture shows the place that had been cleaned up and blown
21 up. Both rooms had been mined, and because of the explosion, my uncle's
22 house was damaged as well.
23 Q. Is your uncle's house the red brick structure to the left of the
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And about where on this photograph would the house where the
2 massacre took place be?
3 A. Before this one. There was just 1-metre difference between the
4 two houses.
5 Q. Okay. So on this photograph, can you see the place where the
6 destroyed house was?
7 A. You can see some foundations here in front, but the grasses and
8 the vegetation have covered them.
9 Q. Okay.
10 MR. STAMP: Could we move on to photo number 2 on that exhibit.
11 Q. And that is the same place, Mr. Krasniqi?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. STAMP: Photo number 3, please.
14 Q. Is that the same place?
15 A. Yes. The same place.
16 MR. STAMP: Could we just scroll through fairly quickly the
17 remaining four or five photos because they depict the same thing, the
18 same area. Stop at this one.
19 Q. What is that -- and it's on this one. What is that hole we see
20 there with water in it?
21 A. Yes. These two places full of water are the places that were
22 blown up. Even today you can find water in those two craters.
23 MR. STAMP: And can you just continue to the end of this album.
24 Your Honour, could the album received in evidence and given an
25 exhibit number.
1 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
2 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00304, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE PARKER: How many photographs are there altogether?
4 MR. STAMP: Nine, Your Honour. Perhaps I should do a count.
5 Ten -- nine photographs plus the cover page, so the exhibit is ten pages,
6 but --
7 JUDGE PARKER: Nine photographs is the exhibit. Thank you.
8 MR. STAMP: Perhaps we could return, with your leave, Your
9 Honours, to P2341. Sorry. 002341. And I'm corrected again. It's
10 02341. And if we could move straight to page 10.
11 Q. On that first page of the document, Mr. Krasniqi, I think you
12 said that you had signed it. You see your name there, though, is -- you
13 signed it "Avdyli."
14 A. Yes. Yes.
15 Q. And that was before your name change.
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. STAMP: If we could move on to page 13 on e-court, and that's
18 Albanian page 15, Albanian translation page 15.
19 Q. You'll see that you say in this statement, and I'll read it, I
20 think you can see it in your own language, as well, to the right --
21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that to the right is the
22 B/C/S version.
23 MR. STAMP: Very well.
24 Q. You have an Albanian copy in front of you, translation. Yes, you
25 can open it. If you can, find where the list of names begin. And you
1 said that:
2 "I am now a refugee in Albania and have elected to make this
3 statement to the war crimes Tribunal. The following persons whose names
4 I know and approximate ages were taken into the rooms and executed."
5 And you see the names you have listed. I think you have listed
6 the names on the -- the families of the persons. Do you see that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And I'd like you to just look through it right to the end.
9 MR. STAMP: And if we could on e-court move to the English page
11 Q. That's the end where you see again you have signed it at the end
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, if we could go back to this list, to the first page of the
16 MR. STAMP: And that is English page 13 in e-court.
17 Q. You see in the Batusha family, you have mentioned -- you have
18 Sefer, age 19 there. Do you see it on the screen?
19 A. Sefer Batusha.
20 Q. Did you find out anything about him after you gave this list?
21 A. When I went to Albania
22 village. That's why I mentioned him here. I mentioned several persons
23 that were not in the village.
24 Q. Now, was he -- is he alive or dead? Did you discover whether
25 he's alive or dead?
1 A. He is still living. He was alive.
2 Q. And if you look under the -- just further down, under the
3 Ramadani family, you see Lufti, age 58. After you gave this list, did
4 you discover whether or not Lufti is alive or dead?
5 A. As for Lutfi Ramadani, I thought he was dead. I didn't know that
6 he survived the massacre. After some time in Albania, I heard that Lutfi
7 Ramadani, Bajram Zylfiu, Petrit Rashkaj, Agim Asllani, and Xhemajl Shehu
8 had also survived the massacre.
9 Q. And if we could move to the next page, you see under the Hajdari
10 family, you see Hysni, age 20, "was apparently shot in the forest after
12 A. Yes. He was shot in the mountains, in the forest. I found him
13 dead there.
14 Q. You say "after escaping." After escaping from where?
15 A. After escaping the massacre.
16 Q. Now, apart from those two persons that you said survived, were on
17 this list, are the remainder of the persons on this list dead or alive,
18 to your knowledge?
19 A. They are all dead, the remaining persons on the list. Only 20
20 bodies were identified and buried in our village. The remaining victims,
21 we don't know where they are. We never found their remains.
22 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, could I --
23 JUDGE PARKER: I'm afraid, Mr. Stamp, that we have not been able
24 to follow this clearly. It would be, I believe, desirable for you to
25 take the witness to the names of each one of those whom he now says
1 survived as those names appear on this list. The problem is principally
2 that he is -- after you took you to one member of the Batusha family --
3 MR. STAMP: Yes.
4 JUDGE PARKER: -- and you moved then to a Ramadani family member,
5 after that there was no identification of the individuals with the list.
6 The people recording the transcript have made their best effort trying to
7 record the names, but they are quite different from the recording that's
8 in the list, as far as I can see. So if we're going to make any use of
9 this, we will need to have specific identification of the survivors.
10 MR. STAMP:
11 Q. I see on the transcript, Mr. Krasniqi --
12 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Your Honours.
13 Q. -- that you named some of the persons -- or the persons who
14 survived the massacre, or who escaped from the building. Can you name
15 them again, very slowly.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Each one needs to be identified with a name on the
17 list, if I can suggest.
18 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour. I just want to get the names first
19 because not all of them were put on the list.
20 Q. Could you just name those survivors that you know of, very
22 A. Lutfi Ramadani, Agim Asllani, Bajram Zylfiu, Petrit Rashkaj,
23 Xhemajl Shehu.
24 Q. I think you had pointed us to Lufti Ramadani, and that is at
25 English page 13 in e-court.
1 A. Lutfi Ramadani also survived the massacre. His two sons were
3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Stamp.
4 MR. STAMP: Yes?
5 JUDGE PARKER: Can we perhaps proceed this way. Under the family
6 name "Batusha," Sefer is listed age 19. I think the witness has now made
7 it clear that that person he now understands had survived.
8 MR. STAMP: Yes.
9 JUDGE PARKER: When we come to the Ramadani family, there is
10 listed a Lutfi, whereas the witness is recorded in the transcript has
11 speaking of a Lufti. Probably they're the same person. Can that be
12 clarified? Aged 58 is the indication in the list.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's Lutfi. It's the same person.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Now, is there also in your
15 understanding, did Bajram Ramadani survive or not?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bajram Ramadani did not survive.
17 JUDGE PARKER: The Asllani family, you mentioned one of those who
18 you now believe survived. Which one is that?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Agim Asllani.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Now, I don't identify such a name on the list. I
21 have Adem, and I have an Asim.
22 MR. STAMP:
23 Q. May I just ask you this: Did you include on the list all the
24 persons who escaped from the house where the execution took place, or did
25 you only include Sefer and Lutfi? That is Sefer Batusha and Lutfi
2 A. I knew that Agim was there when the massacre occurred and that he
3 survived, that he left the location of the massacre.
4 Q. But you did not -- if you look at the list, you did not include
5 him on the list at the time.
6 A. No. I guess I didn't mention it.
7 Q. And Bajram, and I'm sure I'll get the pronunciation wrong, Bajram
8 Zylfiu. He --
9 A. Bajram Zylfiu also survived the massacre.
10 Q. And you will see on the last page of list, you did not include
11 him on the list of those killed.
12 A. No, it's not on the list.
13 Q. And you will see at the end of the list --
14 MR. STAMP: And if we could move to page 15 in the English.
15 Q. You could just follow us on the B/C/S copy you have there. You
16 say the other three survivors are Agim Asllani, whom I have been told is
17 alive, Petrit Rashkaj, and Bajram Zylfiu.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So we can see that of the survivors on this list, only Sefer
20 Batusha and Lutfi Ramadani you mentioned as being alive?
21 A. When I arrived at Kukes, I didn't know that he had survived the
22 massacre. He came to Albania
23 didn't know at the time that he was not in the village. He had been in
25 these names because I thought that they were in the village at the time,
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. STAMP: I don't know if that clarified it, Your Honour. You
4 see that there are five survivors. He had named two in his list --
5 JUDGE PARKER: There are five survivors as well as himself.
6 MR. STAMP: Indeed.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Six, yes.
8 MR. STAMP: And he had named two in his list, which he
9 subsequently discovered were alive, and he mentioned that there were
10 three others at the end of the list. So as I say, not all the survivors
11 were included in the list, just two.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Of the list two that are listed, namely Sefer
13 Batusha and Lutfi Ramadani, are now believed by the witness to have
14 survived, as I understand it, and in addition to himself, the three other
15 people whom he had not put on the list are known by him now to have been
16 old but have survived. They are Agim Asllani, Petrit Rashkaj, and Bajram
18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
19 JUDGE PARKER: Now, if those names are correct, we also have
20 mentioned in the transcript yet one further name.
21 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour. I think I am the one who
22 contributed to this state of confusion because there should be two other
24 JUDGE PARKER: You can understand by now, Mr. Stamp --
25 MR. STAMP: Yes.
1 JUDGE PARKER: -- the cause of our concern when I first
2 intervened. We do not presently know clearly --
3 MR. STAMP: Yes, who the survivors are.
4 JUDGE PARKER: -- who are the names on this list who are now
5 thought by the witness to have survived, and who are the people he now
6 believes survived but who he did not put on the list. Now, Qamil Shehu,
7 is he a person who the witness believes to have survived or not? Perhaps
8 the witness might be able to tell us.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Qamil Shehu survived.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Well, that appears to be, then, number
11 6 in addition to the witness, which would suggest seven survivors.
12 MR. STAMP:
13 Q. And was --
14 A. Sefer Batusha is not a survivor of the massacre. He at the time
15 was in Germany
16 the list because I had no knowledge that he was not there in the village
17 at the critical time.
18 However, survivors are the following: Qamil Shehu, Lutfi
19 Ramadani, Agim Asllani, Petrit Rashkaj, and Bajram Zylfiu.
20 Q. And yourself?
21 A. And myself.
22 Q. Those were the persons who were in the building who manage to
23 escape alive?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, I'm going to go back to the list, and I'm afraid I might
1 cause even a little bit more complexity. If you look at the Avdyli and
2 Batusha family at the beginning of the list, you will see Muharrem, 69,
3 and his nephew. Was his nephew in the house or the barn where the
4 execution took place?
5 A. No, he wasn't.
6 Q. And if you look on the last page of the list, under the Shehu
7 family, I think in Albanian that is the page before the last, but you
8 need to find the Shehu family. You see near to the bottom of the list,
9 son of Sinan, 18. Was he in the house?
10 A. No, he wasn't.
11 Q. Now, the only thing I can do is to ask you, as having looked at
12 the list, apart from those that are mentioned and that -- or that you
13 have mentioned, actually, did anyone else survive?
14 A. Those that we mentioned and whose names are on the list and who
15 survived the massacre are Agim Asllani, myself, Bajram Zylfiu, Lutfi
16 Ramadani, and Petrit Rashkaj. Sefer Batusha and Muharrem's nephew,
17 Sinan's son, they were not survivors because they were not there where
18 the massacre occurred.
19 MR. STAMP: I hope, Your Honour, that that clarifies the
20 situation with this list.
21 JUDGE PARKER: I think we are now in a clearer position,
22 Mr. Stamp, and you propose now to tender the list.
23 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour. I would not propose to tender the
24 entire statement because he has given evidence as to the narrative in the
25 statement, but perhaps the sentence which I'll just read:
1 "The following persons whose names I know and approximate ages
2 were taken into the rooms and executed."
3 If from that part to the sentence immediately after the end of
4 the list, which I will now read:
5 "The other three survivors are Agim Asllani, whom I have been
6 told is alive, and Petrit Rashkaj, and Bajram Zylfiu. I have only seen
7 Petrit at Kukes."
8 If that section could be just severed from the statement and
9 received into evidence.
10 JUDGE PARKER: The list of survivors that, part of the statement
11 will be received as an exhibit.
12 MR. STAMP: Your Honour, before we do -- I'm wondering if we
13 could just have the -- at least the last sentence, the sentence
14 immediately after the list because that helps clarify the evidence, and
15 the sentence immediately before as well.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Well, we have now the oral evidence of the
17 witness. Once it was eventually clarified, we know what he says about
18 various people who are either wrongly listed or who have been omitted
19 from the list and are known to have survived, and we know which of those
20 on the list he says he now thinks survived. Why do we want yet another
21 version of that?
22 MR. STAMP: I guess -- Your Honour, I guess -- I think I'm just
23 being more cautious, possibly more than necessary. The list, in
24 agreement with the Court, in addition to his evidence, is sufficient, but
25 I just think it's just a little bit more clear if those two sentences are
2 [Trial Chamber confers
3 JUDGE PARKER: The exhibit will include the paragraph that
4 introduces the list, commencing: "I am now a refugee in Albania ..." and
5 the paragraph that is at the immediate end of the list: "The other three
6 survivors are Agim Asllani ..." et cetera.
7 MR. STAMP: I'm very grateful to Your Honours.
8 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00305, Your Honours.
9 [Prosecution counsel confer]
10 JUDGE PARKER: Am I correct in thinking it was a list in its
11 original form of 96 names?
12 MR. STAMP: No, Your Honour. I think I am -- because of the way
13 the list is constructed, at some parts he says, for example, if you look
14 at the beginning, he might say in respect to the Batushas, Zaim, 50, and
15 two sons, Feim, 23, and other's name is unknown, 20. That's two of his
16 sons. There are occasions where each line represents more than one
17 person, so the list comes to a total of 100 names.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
19 MR. STAMP: But I will, ask Your Honour, if at the end of the
20 next break I could give the total in respect to -- the total minus those
21 that he says survived because I did a count yesterday, and I'd like to
22 just confirm it just to be absolutely accurate.
23 JUDGE PARKER: I think you'd better because with your having
24 pointed out how some listings are in fact of two or even three people, I
25 make the list to include over 100 names now.
1 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour. I think I had 102 minus 2, but I
2 could -- I would like to confirm that.
3 JUDGE PARKER: We won't waste time now, but can I say I was at
4 104 on the last count.
5 MR. STAMP: Very well.
6 JUDGE PARKER: So we will get that clarified.
7 MR. STAMP: Thank you. I have nothing further for this witness
8 at this stage.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djordjevic, do you have cross-examination of
11 the witness?
12 MR. DJORDJEVIC: Your Honour, I have some technical problems, and
13 I will find another earphone.
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Djordjevic:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Krasniqi. I am Defence
16 counsel for the accused in this case. My name is Dragoljub Djordjevic,
17 and I will ask you some questions that I believe if answered will help
18 clarify the facts in this case.
19 Mr. Krasniqi, can you tell us, what was your surname when you
20 were born?
21 A. When I was born, my surname was Krasniqi.
22 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, when did you change your birth surname, Krasniqi,
23 to Avdyli?
24 A. I don't remember exactly how many years after I was born. My
25 uncle changed it to Avdyli. That's the surname my grandfather had.
1 Q. Your uncle, is he your maternal or paternal uncle? Which
2 grandfather are you talking about?
3 A. My uncle, my father's brother.
4 Q. What about the grandfather?
5 A. My father's brother. My grandfather was my father's father.
6 Q. Can you tell us why the surname "Krasniqi" was changed into
7 Avdyli? Why did your uncle change your surname and his own surname into
9 A. I don't know why he changed that. He uses the surname "Avdyli"
10 himself while myself and my brothers use the surname "Krasniqi."
11 Q. Did I understand you correctly when you said that your paternal
12 grandfather was called Avdyli?
13 A. Yes. My grandfather was called Avdyli.
14 Q. Did your father also bear the surname "Avdyli"?
15 A. No.
16 Q. May I then conclude that your father's surname was Krasniqi?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Why did you bear the surname "Avdyli"? You can't explain this to
19 the Court and you can't tell the Trial Chamber because your father's
20 surname was Krasniqi; right?
21 A. When we went to school, I went to school together with his
22 children, and he came and changed his son's surname and my surname, so
23 all the surnames in the school figured as Avdyli.
24 Q. Did you live in your uncle's family?
25 A. No. I didn't live in my uncle's house. We were together, all of
1 us living together; my father, my uncles were living together until 1980.
2 Q. I'm asking you this because I can't understand whether you are
3 the son of Avdyli or the son of Krasniqi because your father is Krasniqi,
4 and we see that your surname currently is Krasniqi as well.
5 A. Yes, but when we went to school, he changed the surname. I
6 didn't know that he had changed the surname those days from Krasniqi to
7 Avdyli. He was a little authoritative, and that's why I did not change
8 the surname until lately. When I was grown up and changed the surname
9 just like my brothers, I became a Krasniqi.
10 Q. When did that happen? When did you change your surname to
12 A. By the end of 1999.
13 Q. One more question about your surname. You say your uncle changed
14 his name to Avdyli and you didn't know about that for a long time. When
15 did you become aware of that, that you were in fact Avdyli by surname,
16 not Krasniqi?
17 A. When I was at school, I learned that he had changed the surname
18 into Avdyli. I was a young boy at the time. That was my uncle, my
19 eldest uncle. I was scared. I didn't tell anyone, so the surname
20 remained Avdyli until I changed it to Krasniqi again.
21 Q. I want to ask you now about a portion of the list that was shown
22 to us a few minutes ago and part of which has been admitted into
23 evidence. It's the list of people who were allegedly in the building
24 that caught fire and where the massacre was perpetrated.
25 Can you explain to me that since you and your brothers are all
1 Krasniqi, there is not a single Krasniqi on this list? We see Avdyli but
2 not a single Krasniqi. Do the Krasniqis live in Krusha e Vogel at all?
3 A. Yes, they do. At that time during the war, we were living
4 separately. We were separated. Some of us were on the main road, and
5 they were told together with their families to go to the Duni
6 [as interpreted] river, while the others were told to go to the forest.
7 I was the only one in the second group that was told to go to the forest,
8 and my uncle, as well, Bali Avdyli and Enver Avdyli, they were close to
9 me; their houses were close to mine.
10 Q. Tell me, Mr. Krasniqi, you say they told us to go to the forest
11 and they told them to go to the river. Who told to you go to the forest?
12 A. When the Serb forces came, the people in the village -- all the
13 people in the village who were living on the upper side of the road were
14 told to go to the mountains, to the forest, and when I saw that all the
15 people were going towards the forest, I went together with them too.
16 Q. But my question was, Who told them to go to the forest?
17 A. Nobody told me personally, but I went together with other people
18 who were going to the forest. Somebody had told them, the Serbs, the
19 soldiers or the policemen who were there. I did not see them myself, but
20 the people who were closest to the road must have been told, and when I
21 saw the people going towards the forest, I joined the group.
22 Q. I was asking you these questions because you just said that they
23 were told to go to the forest and to the river respectively. Do you
24 suppose somebody told them, or is it based on some certain knowledge,
25 because you are mentioning it for the first time today. So do you
1 suppose somebody told them - because you told us somebody told them - or
2 you have reliable information about this?
3 A. I heard this from other people. The forces had told them. The
4 police and military forces had told them to go to the forest, the one who
5 lived on the upper part of the village, while those on the lower part of
6 the village were told to go towards Drin
7 villagers, that they had been told to go towards the forest, and I joined
8 the group and went to the forest.
9 Q. I'm asking you this again because we understood something
10 different yesterday -- earlier today. Early in that morning, you said
11 you went to the forest, but I want to ask you, since you heard from other
12 people that it was the Serb forces or the Serb police, as you now
13 specify, I want to ask you, did those people also tell you the reason why
14 they were told to go to the forest and why the other group that lived
15 lower down in the village was told to go to the river? Do you know that?
16 A. I don't know the reason why they told half of the villagers to go
17 to the forest and the others to go towards the river. I don't know the
18 reason. What I know is that we were set on fire, we were massacred, we
19 were burned, and that must be the reason, that -- what they wanted to do.
20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Krasniqi. You talked about
21 that yesterday, and we'll discuss it at a later stage when the time comes
22 in my cross-examination, but to save time and out of respect for everyone
23 in the courtroom, I am asking you again to answer my questions directly.
24 Why are you saying this for the first time? Why haven't you said this
25 ever before; namely, that somebody from the police, from the Serbs, told
1 the villagers to go towards the forest or towards the Drin river, to
2 leave their homes? Why haven't you ever mentioned this before, and it's
3 important, I believe.
4 A. This is how it happened.
5 Q. Thank you. My next question: Do you have brothers or sisters?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. How many brothers and how many sisters?
8 A. Two brothers, two sisters.
9 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, did any of your brothers belong to the KLA?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Thank you. How many members are there to the Krasniqi family?
12 When I say Krasniqi, I mean the family that should bear that surname by
13 your father. Are you now called Krasniqi, all of you, you and your
14 brothers? I'm not going to ask about the sisters if they are married.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you. Now I hear you from interpretation.
17 A. There are 15 members in our family.
18 Q. That was precisely my next question. On the list of these people
19 you say were executed in their house on the 26th of March, 1999
20 made that list while being interviewed by the Prosecution on the 4th of
21 April, 1999, while you were giving the statement, and on that list there
22 is not a single Krasniqi. It is clear why now, but it's also clear that
23 the members of your closest family are Avdyli. Is Bali Avdyli 72 years
24 old and Enver Avdyli 28 years old? Are they members of your family?
25 A. Yes. Bali Avdyli is my uncle. Enver Avdyli is his son.
1 Q. Thank you for this answer. You told us yesterday that on the
2 25th of March, Serb forces came and surrounded the village coming from
3 the main road, Prizren-Djakovica, and that the people were concerned,
4 worried, and that's why they went into the mountains. Is that what you
6 A. I said that yesterday because the first people that I met when I
7 went out and I asked them where they were going, they said the Serbian
8 forces had come and surrounded us. Some of them told me that somebody
9 had shouted, Go to the mountain, go to the mountain. Some of them
11 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, did you also say yesterday that you personally saw
12 these people coming, I mean the Serb forces, that they had all sorts of
13 combat vehicles, tanks, armoured vehicles, APCs, heavy artillery, and
14 that you saw all that with your own eyes; or is it something as you say
15 today that some people who were going to the forest told you? Which of
16 the two is true?
17 A. I did see the forces myself, and I heard them when they were
18 coming towards the village. The whole village roared, and I saw them
19 myself when they were going on the road and stopped opposite the village.
20 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, you stated yesterday that it happened almost at
21 dawn, at 5.00 a.m.
22 A. Yes. It had not dawned yet.
23 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] May I ask the legal officer to
24 call up D001-4180, page 2 in English, and alongside this document to
25 display D001-4196, page 2, paragraph 4, in Albanian. Thank you. But we
1 are seeing something else. It's not the -- so page 2 of both documents,
2 both the English and the Albanian.
3 Q. What I want to discuss is on page 2 in English, paragraph 4, and
4 page 2, paragraph 4, in Albanian. The Prosecutor has provided you with a
5 hard copy. You have it before you. Check page 2. You say:
6 "The next morning, 25th March, 1999, I was awakened by the noise
7 of the tanks in the village. It was about 3 a.m., and the tanks were
8 close to the houses. I woke up my wife and told her to leave with the
9 children and hide in the mountains. I left for the forest with my
10 family, and all the other Albanian families did the same."
11 Mr. Krasniqi, there is a significant discrepancy in the hour.
12 You will admit that 3.00 a.m.
13 when your memory was much fresher did you say that it was at 3.00 a.m.
14 and today you are saying it was 5.00 a.m.?
15 A. It was about 3.40. In one of my statements I gave, I mentioned
16 3.40, and I'm very sure about that. At that time, we heard the noise. I
17 looked outside and saw the forces coming towards the village from the
18 direction of the road, main road, Prizren-Gjakove, when they came to the
19 village. It was about 5.00 a.m.
20 children and my wife, and we joined the group of people leaving.
21 I asked some of them, Where are you going? And they told me --
22 some of them were telling me that they had been told to go to the
23 mountain, and some of them who had want to go towards the river had been
24 stopped and told to go towards the forest, and that was the group that I
1 Q. This is the first time we're hearing this from you. I've said
2 this often enough, and I won't repeat it, but before we go on a break,
3 I'll just ask you if you signed this statement or not, the statement that
4 is before you on the screen and the hard copies on your desk.
5 A. Yes, I have.
6 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Witness.
7 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I suppose it's a
8 convenient time for a break.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, and we will resume at 11.00.
10 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
11 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djordjevic.
13 MR. DJORDJEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. [Interpretation] Let us continue, Mr. Krasniqi. Mr. Krasniqi,
15 yesterday during the direct examination, you said that you did not see
16 what the policemen, the Serb forces, whoever, were doing and what they
17 were doing in the village, but you said: We could hear fire from
18 pistols, and we could only see smoke from houses.
19 Do you agree that that's what you stated yesterday, page 66,
20 lines 19, 20, and 21, yesterday's daily transcript? I'm saying this for
21 the benefit of the Trial Chamber and my colleagues from the OTP.
22 A. [Previous translation continues]...
23 Q. Thank you. When my colleague Mr. Stamp asked you whether
24 anything else happened on the 25th, you said that nothing had happened,
25 that there was only shooting from pistols, and you said that you could
1 see tree branches falling because of the bullets and that apart from
2 that, nothing else happened. That's what you stated yesterday as well;
3 isn't that right?
4 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djordjevic, in putting what the witness had
5 said yesterday to him said that he heard the sound of pistols, fire from
6 pistols. We have no recollection of pistols being mentioned yesterday.
7 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] It is correct that the English
8 word "pistol" means "pistolj." There are other words, too, but there is
9 this English word "gun" as well, and I wanted to clarify in my next
10 question whether it is actually gun-fire coming from guns or whether it
11 is fire coming from pistols. It was precisely for that reason that I
12 wanted to clarify this. It's the daily transcript, the one from
13 yesterday, actually, page 66, paragraphs 19, 20, and 21, and then what I
14 asked continues in 24, 25, 26, et cetera.
15 Q. So, was this gun-fire coming from guns or rifles or firing coming
16 from pistols? Because in English, this may be ambiguous -- an ambiguous
17 word when it is used, "gun," that is.
18 A. From the direction of the main road, I couldn't see from what
19 kind of weapons they were firing, but the shooting, the gun-fire was
20 directed at the forest. It couldn't have been gun-fire from a pistol or
21 rifle because the forces that took up positions around the village, they
22 had APCs and other heavy machinery.
23 Q. Now it's clear. Thank you, Mr. Krasniqi. Could we have this
24 same transcript on the monitor again, the one that was here until a few
25 moments ago. I don't know if it's still there. D001-4080 in English,
1 and in Albanian, D001-4916. It is page 2, paragraph 4. That is exactly
2 where we were, so it's the same thing.
3 Now, you said in that statement, the statement of the 4th of
4 April, 1999, have a look at paragraph 4, please. When it dawned, tanks
5 started firing at the upper part of the forest. The firing went on for a
6 while, and then they started torching the village. Can you explain the
7 difference between your statement on the 4th of April, 1999, what I
8 referred to just now, and could you tell us why you stated that then and
9 why you're saying something completely different now.
10 A. I did not mention every vehicle by name, whether it was an APC or
11 a tank. I said that these were forces. They had heavy machinery with
12 them. They did not fire from pistols or rifles. They were firing from
13 these heavy machinery.
14 Q. I have to admit that now you've totally confused me,
15 Mr. Krasniqi. Yesterday and today, all of us in this courtroom
16 understood that there was fire coming possibly from rifles, perhaps
17 pistols, and now you're talking about shelling. Could you kindly
18 clarify --
19 JUDGE PARKER: [Previous translation continues] ... to interrupt,
20 but your impression of the evidence yesterday differs from others'.
21 There was no understanding at all of pistols. What was described simply
22 was gun-fire, and the witness yesterday went on to describe how branches
23 of trees were being shot off, which in my mind was suggesting the firing
24 of heavy weapons or heavy automatic weapons. He didn't specify that, but
25 he described the effect of it. So that I think when you were suggesting
1 to him now that he -- what you heard yesterday suggested pistols or
2 rifles, that that is not the impression shared by others of what the
3 witness was saying.
4 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, then I would kindly
5 ask that we all look at the daily transcript, page 66, paragraphs 19, 20,
6 and 21. Could that please be displayed on our screens, the daily
7 transcript, and what is written there is:
8 "However, we could hear firing from ..." something that is
9 called "guns" in English, "... and we could see smoke coming from the
10 houses." It doesn't say "shelling." It says "shooting or firing."
11 In this statement that I presented to the witness just now from
12 the 4th of April, he says that it was tanks that were shelling the
13 forest, in actual fact, and you will admit that this is a significant
14 difference, namely between what the witness said on the 4th of April and
15 what he said yesterday and what he's saying today. That is why I put my
16 question. It has nothing to do with my impression. It is quite simply
17 the situation as the exhibits stand, and that is why I'm putting this
19 JUDGE PARKER: Well, let me make it clear to you, Mr. Djordjevic,
20 that from my understanding of the evidence yesterday, there is no
21 significant difference between what the witness said in his original
22 statement and what he was describing yesterday. The only possible
23 uncertainty from yesterday arises because the witness was not
24 specifically asked whether it was the armoured vehicles that were firing
25 or some other type of fire, but what he did describe was gun-fire and the
1 effect of the firing on the vegetation, and that seems to be quite
2 inconsistent with simply the firing of small arms, whether it's pistols
3 or rifles. It's consistent with the firing of heavier weapons, which is
4 exactly what he was saying in his original statement. So please
5 understand that your interpretation may not be shared by others.
6 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour. It is
7 for the Court to draw its conclusions at the end. The parties certainly
8 cannot do that. We can make our proposals and we can try to present what
9 we want to present, so I fully abide by that, and everyone can have his
10 or her own views, and he don't have to be identical. I will accept what
11 you said by way of a remark, but my understanding of the transcript was
12 quite different.
13 Now I'm going to put a direct question to the witness --
14 Q. Whether there was any shelling of your positions by the Serb
15 forces while you were in the forest. So this is my direct question,
16 whether the tanks fired at the forest where you had gone, as you had put
17 it, upon instructions received by some people coming from elsewhere, as
18 you had put it.
19 A. There was shelling from the machinery.
20 Q. I'm just going to put one more question to you. Now you say
21 there was shelling from the machinery. That is what the interpretation I
22 heard says. I must admit to you that I don't understand what this
23 word "machinery" means, so I would like to clarify the matter fully.
24 A. The military machinery. I heard the gun-fire coming from this
25 heavy machinery. We saw the branches falling on ground as a result of
1 being hit by this machinery.
2 Q. I have to be very specific. Were the branches falling because
3 they had been hit, or were they falling due to an explosion?
4 A. They fall because they were hit.
5 Q. Now it is much clearer. My next question, Mr. Krasniqi, at that
6 point in time were any of the villagers hurt due to the firing from the
7 military machinery, as you had put it, in the forest on that occasion?
8 A. No, nobody.
9 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Krasniqi. Now everything is much
10 clearer to me, at least, if not to all in the courtroom.
11 Your house and the yard of Sejdi Batusha, yesterday you said that
12 you stayed in the forest until the following morning and that those who
13 had young children went to Sejdi Batusha's house while you remained in
14 the forest. That is in the daily transcript, page 67, paragraphs 8, 9,
15 and 10. Your statement from the 27th of June that you gave to the
16 investigators of the Tribunal in 2001, D001/ --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot follow the
18 numbers, very fast.
19 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask to admit into
20 evidence parts of the transcript from the 4th of April, 19 -- just a
21 moment, please. What I said a few minutes ago, let me give you an
22 accurate number so there is no misunderstanding. So there was D001, D --
23 or, rather, D001 -- just a moment, please, in order to be as specific as
24 possible. Here it is. The 4th of April, 1999, D001-4180, page 2,
25 paragraph 4, in English; and D001-4196, page 2, paragraph 4, in the
1 Albanian. That is the part of the transcript that I would like to have
2 admitted into evidence before I proceed.
3 JUDGE PARKER: The better procedure, Mr. Djordjevic, would be for
4 you to put what it is that you want to put from that previous statement
5 to the witness. If you want to draw our attention to some change from
6 what is in the statement to what is being said now, do that, and at the
7 end of that process the Chamber will then be able to decide whether the
8 original statement should be admitted or not.
9 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour. The
10 only thing missing is my explanation as to why I believe this should be
11 done. I believe that this should be done because we heard that the
12 witness said that tanks were firing at the forest. In actual fact, it is
13 obvious that there weren't any explosions; rather, the branches were
14 falling off the trees because they had been hit, not due to explosions.
15 Therefore, we may conclude that this is fire coming from some lighter
16 weapons that are firing at the forest, and that is why I wanted this part
17 of the transcript to be admitted into evidence. That is why the Defence
18 is tendering that, and I have already put that to the witness as you
19 know. Thank you.
20 JUDGE PARKER: What you haven't put to the witness,
21 Mr. Djordjevic, is whether what he has now said in evidence is different
22 from what he said in his statement about this firing. I'm afraid the
23 picture is becoming more and more confused by the questions rather than
24 clearer. So if it is that you're saying the witness has changed his
25 account from what he said in his statement to what he gave in evidence,
1 you need to put to him specifically what you say the change is and have
2 him comment upon that.
3 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I've already done
4 that. You can see that in the transcript, but I will do it yet again.
5 Statement to the investigators of the Tribunal, the 4th of April,
6 1999. The English version is D001-4180, page 2, paragraph 4. The
7 Albanian version is D001-4196, page 2, paragraph 4.
8 The witness says:
9 "When it dawned, the tanks started firing into the upper part of
10 the forest. The shooting lasted for about one hour, and then they
11 started to burn down the village."
12 I just asked the witness whether there was any shelling, whether
13 there were any explosions heard. The witness today said "no." He said
14 branches were falling not because there were explosions but because they
15 were hit. That is the difference between the statement that he gave then
16 and the one that he gave now, nothing else. Of course, if the Court
17 believes that this should not be admitted into evidence, I will accept
19 MR. STAMP: Just to be absolutely accurate, I don't think the
20 witness said that there were no explosions. I think the witness said
21 that the branches were not falling because of explosions. There's a
22 slight difference and possibly an important difference if this issue is
23 an important issue.
24 JUDGE BAIRD: When did the witness say this?
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Stamp, please.
1 MR. STAMP: The witness said at line 30 -- at page 31 today; line
2 20, the question was:
3 "I have to be specific. Were the branches falling because they
4 had been hit, or were they falling due to an explosion?
5 "A. They fall because they were hit."
6 So what I'm saying is the witness did not say there were no
7 explosions. He said the branches fell because they were hit.
8 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber has the difficulty, Mr. Djordjevic,
9 that it doesn't see what you see in this evidence. We have read --
10 listened to your quote from the original statement where the witness
11 simply says:
12 "When it started to become light, these tanks fired in the upper
13 part of the forest. The shooting lasted about one hour ..."
14 The witness has described in his evidence that they were
15 shooting. We've gone through the question whether he could say what was
16 being shot. Pistols and rifles were put to him and he said, No, this was
17 shooting from the military machinery, and he has described both tanks and
18 armoured personnel carriers, both of which are armed with heavier
20 And then this question was, Was there shooting into the forest,
21 and it was clear that it was. And the question then was, Whether
22 branches were being -- falling from trees because of explosions or
23 because of a more direct impact of whatever was being fired, and he said,
24 It was not an explosion, they were being hit directly.
25 At the moment, the evidence doesn't suggest to us firing from
1 anything but what he described as the military machinery, and that, as
2 you will know, could be either the cannons of tanks or the heavy machine
3 guns fitted to armoured personnel carriers, and where we can see in all
4 of that a difference from what is originally said to here is something
5 that doesn't impress itself upon me at the moment.
6 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I will agree with you, Your
7 Honour, that it is possible that the fire was coming from the APCs or
8 from the tanks but only from lighter weapons, small-caliber ones.
9 However, in order for us to know whether tanks were firing from their
10 cannons, I believe we would need a military expert because when cannons
11 of tanks fire, there are also explosions involved. Where the shell ends
12 up, it explodes. So let me be allowed to continue, and I hope that the
13 situation will be clearer ultimately.
14 Could we now have on our monitors the following document, a
15 hand-written statement made by Mr. Krasniqi at the Orahovac police
16 station in the summer of 1999. The English version is D001-5950, page 2,
17 paragraph 1. I cannot give an exact reference for the Albanian version
18 because it doesn't really exist. That is an annex to this document, to
19 the version that was compiled in English, but it is paragraph 4 -- page
20 4, rather, paragraph 1, where we're talking about the Albanian language.
21 I think that it would be useful so that the witness himself could see it.
22 Right. Thank you.
23 Q. Now, Mr. Krasniqi, do you see this statement of yours? Is this
24 actually your statement? Let me ask you that first.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. In this part of your written statement, at the place that I refer
2 to earlier on, you say, In the morning, shelling started and houses in
3 the village started burning.
4 My first question: Shelling started. Can we conclude that the
5 shelling started and that the fire was directed at the village and that
6 is why the houses were burning, or is it something else that we are going
7 to hear from you?
8 A. For the word "shelling," you can interpret it in whichever way
9 you like. These -- the gun-fire came from the forces. I was not
10 specific. I did not mention by names the equipment and the weapons. It
11 was shelling coming from military machinery. This is what I meant by
12 shelling, something coming from the military machinery, gun-fire coming
13 from military machinery. As for houses burning, there was flames and
14 smoke coming out from the houses. I don't know how these -- how these --
15 how the fire -- these houses were set on fire, but there was smoke and
16 flames coming out of them.
17 Q. Thank you. I'm trying, Mr. Krasniqi, to find out from you, this
18 shelling that morning, did you hear without seeing where these shells
19 were landing, because we all know what happens when a shell hits the
20 ground; or you know what the shells were targeting, or alternatively, you
21 only heard shelling, that is, the sound of shelling.
22 A. I heard the shelling. However, I did not see where the
23 projectiles were falling. I just saw the branches of the trees falling.
24 Q. Thank you. My next question: Were the positions where the
25 civilians from Mala Krusa hid in the forest shelled?
1 A. No, it wasn't. We were in the forest, but no one was injured.
2 The shelling went beyond where we were staying, up in the mountain.
3 Q. Thank you. I think by now it's completely clear what happened.
4 Mr. Krasniqi, would you tell me whether at that time, the time of
5 the massacre, as you call it, you were aware what the Kosovo Liberation
6 Army was, what kind of organisation it was and what's the purpose it
8 A. As regards the KLA, I had heard, all of us had heard about it;
9 however, I never saw them. I never joined them.
10 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, does that mean that you are claiming that the KLA
11 was not familiar to you at all, that you knew no one from that
12 organisation, you didn't know a single villager who joined the KLA?
13 A. I never saw anyone in uniform from the KLA. I never stayed with
14 them. Of course, I stayed with people, but I didn't know whether they
15 were from the KLA or not.
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Krasniqi.
17 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I will now ask a part of the
18 transcript to be shown of the 5th October, 2001. It's a statement of
19 this witness given to the investigators of the Tribunal. It's D001-4218,
20 page 2, please, paragraph 2. And in Albanian, it's D001-4226, page 2,
21 paragraphs 2 and 3.
22 We see that on the screen now.
23 Q. Look at your own statement, Mr. Krasniqi. Look at the Albanian
24 version, page 2, paragraphs 2 and 3. Is that your statement? Did you
25 sign it?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You say there that the villages Brahim Batusha, Arbin Hajdari,
3 Avni Hajdari, Jeton Hajdari and Melit Shehu were members of the KLA and
4 that whenever they came into the village, they were wearing civilian
5 clothing. Did you state that?
6 A. I did say that, but it was in 2001, but in 1999 I didn't know
7 that these were members of the KLA. In 2001, I saw them in KLA uniform.
8 They came to the village, and it was at that time that I learned that
9 they were members of the KLA, but before 1999 I did not know about them.
10 After I returned to Kosova from Albania
12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Krasniqi. Could you tell me since I don't see
13 these people on that list here - maybe I'm mistaken, at least I didn't
14 see them on the list of the dead - do you know where they were on the
15 25th of March, 1999?
16 A. I don't know, and I didn't know where they were at the time.
17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Krasniqi. Could you tell me if you were aware at
18 that time at all of the combat activities of the KLA against the Serb
19 forces, police, and Serb civilians? Did you have any such knowledge at
20 that time?
21 A. Whatever I could listen on the radio or watch on TV.
22 Q. Thank you. You said yesterday that you stayed in the forest the
23 whole day, in fact, until the following morning, and that those who had
24 little children went to the house of Sejdi Batusha while you stayed in
25 the forest. That's the statement of the 4th of April that you could see
1 on the screen, and it's still in front of you.
2 The next morning, the 25th of March, 1999, you say you saw Serb
3 forces coming with all sorts of military vehicles, combat vehicles, and
4 you described those vehicles. Could you just be more specific? Since
5 you've already enumerated these vehicles, could you repeat that and tell
6 us if you were able to see what colour the vehicles were; and since it
7 was very early in the morning, it was still dark, you saw the lights on
8 on the vehicles, were you able to see who was in the village that
10 A. When they came, I could see the lights and that they stopped
11 around the village. I don't know what colours they were because it was
12 still dark, and then we went to the mountain, to the forest. I don't
13 know about the colour. I couldn't see what colour they had.
14 Q. What about later that day?
15 A. Not on the 25th. On the 25th, I did not see any military
17 Q. Later on the 25th, there was no military machinery. Is that what
18 you said? Maybe I misheard. Could you repeat that?
19 A. On the 25th, they were around the village and close to the road,
20 and I couldn't see them.
21 Q. It's clearer now. Thank you.
22 Mr. Krasniqi, tell me, please, you said yesterday that on the
23 26th of March, the tanks went up to the village, surrounded the village
24 coming from the forest, and that not a single policeman went up to the
25 forest where you were. You said they sent two men. One was Aziz Shehu -
1 that's what you say - and the other's name is Sulejman Batusha. They
2 came to tell everyone who was in the forest to return to the village.
3 You also say that after that, you went to Sejdi Batusha's house, and you
4 all gathered in his yard.
5 Mr. Krasniqi, tell me about Aziz Shehu and Sulejman Batusha.
6 Were those men who were pushed together with you into the house where the
7 massacre took place?
8 A. The question is about the 26th, when the forces, the Serb
9 military forces came to the forest above us in the mountain. That
10 happened on the 26th of March, 1999. And then, they sent Sulejman
11 Batusha and Aziz Shehu to take whoever had remained in the forest. We
12 were gathered together in Sejdi Batusha's courtyard, all of us.
13 Q. Tell me, please, about Aziz Shehu and Sulejman Batusha. Were
14 they also executed on that occasion, during this event that we call a
15 massacre here in Mala Krusa?
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. Thank you. Now I'm going to ask you about this small segment
18 that is different here, so let's clarify it. Your statement that --
19 given to the investigators of the OTP on the 4th of April, 1999, in the
20 English is D001-4180, paragraph 2, paragraph 5; the Albanian is
21 D001-4926, paragraph 5, second sentence. You say in that statement:
22 "At 9.00 on Friday," and you're referring to the 26th of March,
23 "a group of about 15 policemen came into the forest where the refugees
24 were hiding. I saw three Serb policemen who had white arm bands as they
25 were giving instructions."
1 Could you just clarify this for us. This group of 15 policemen
2 who entered the forest in the morning, tell me, did they contact you, or
3 did they send those two citizens that I referred to a few moments ago,
4 Batusha and Hajdari, to tell you that you should leave the forest? I
5 believe that this would be very important for the sake of the consistency
6 of your statement to the very end.
7 A. The policemen did not speak directly to me. They just sent
8 Sulejman Batusha and Aziz Shehu to bring the people down to the
10 Q. Thank you. Let us clear up one more detail from your statement.
11 On the 27th June, 2001
12 version is D001-4129, page 2, paragraph 6 --
13 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please repeat the number of the
15 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I simply don't have the Albanian
16 version. I have only the B/C/S and English.
17 Q. In that statement of the 27th of June -- can you tell us from the
18 page in English that this is your signature? It's your statement to the
19 ICTY of the 27th June, 2001. Did you sign it?
20 A. I can't see it here. No, it's not my signature.
21 MR. STAMP: I think -- sorry.
22 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. We see written in capital letters in print, Mehmet Avdyli. Can I
24 then conclude you didn't sign the statement?
25 MR. STAMP: I think we're getting into an area where we are not
1 clear. We have already discussion about the statement of the 27th of
2 June, 2001. I believe what is before the witness is the statement of the
3 4th of April, 1999.
4 So we need to have -- to get the right document before the
5 witness, then have the witness answer clear questions in respect to what
6 he is supposed to have said.
7 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I must admit I didn't hear what
8 the Prosecutor has just said. If my learned friend, Mr. Stamp, could
9 please repeat. I would like to know what kind of an objection you are
11 MR. STAMP: The objection is with respect to the clarity of the
12 proceedings and the questions being asked, and it's not really an
13 objection formally. I just want to assist. You are asking about --
14 counsel is asking about a statement of the 21st -- on the 27th of June,
15 2001, and referring to a document on the screen in e-court, which is not
16 that statement but another statement.
17 Counsel needs to get the document that he wants to ask about on
18 e-court so that the witness could look at that, and then he could ask
19 hopefully clear questions about whatever the witness is supposed to have
20 said in that document.
21 JUDGE PARKER: The short point you're putting, Mr. Stamp, is that
22 questions are not being asked about the statement that is being displayed
23 on the screen.
24 There are two statements, one in 1999 and one in 2001, and --
25 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Your Honours,
1 obviously I was not heard well, and that's why this confusion occurred.
2 I asked for the statement of the witness of the 27th of June, 2001
3 shown to the witness. It was the statement given to the ICTY
4 investigators, D001-429. That's the number. I also have the number of
5 the B/C/S version, but I don't have the document in Albanian, at least
6 not in e-court, but I will try to locate it with my assistant. It's
7 D001-4209. That's the English version. And would you please let us look
8 at that statement. Would you please show us page 2. We see the English
9 and the B/C/S versions.
10 Q. Now, I have a specific question. In that statement, when you
11 were explaining what you were marking because there's a map attached to
12 the statement, a map given to you by the investigator, you said:
13 I wrote in 0900 on the 29 March, and that means that they took us
14 out of Sejdi Batusha's house at 9.00 in the morning on the 29th of March,
15 1999, where men were separated from women and children.
16 Which means that at 9 a.m.
17 men were separated from the women. That's what it says in the statement.
18 MR. STAMP: Maybe there's a translation issue here again because
19 the English translation I have is pretty much the same thing as his
20 evidence. The English translation I have is:
21 "We were moved out of the yard of Sejdi Batusha's house ..."
22 That is, if I may, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 -- that's 6th paragraph down
23 in the statement, and what the witness said in evidence is that they were
24 put -- they were in the courtyard of Sejdi Batusha's house, and what we
25 have here in the statement is that they were moved out of a yard. That
1 is pretty much, it seems to me, consistent with what he said in evidence.
2 And the short answer is that what I hear my friend saying, is
3 that he said, the witness said he was moved out of the house. That is
4 not what the statement says here.
5 JUDGE PARKER: The event happened, by the way, on the 26th the
6 March. I think you'd mentioned the 29th once or twice, Mr. Djordjevic.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
8 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Precisely. I wanted to show the
9 Court the map marked by the witness, and I wanted to ask him about that;
10 namely, I wanted to ask about the hour he wrote on the map and whether it
11 is the correct hour. It's Exhibit P301 marked on page 22. That's what I
12 read from the witness notification, and I'd like the map to be shown on
13 the screen, so I can point that out to the witness and ask for
15 This is the map.
16 Q. Is this map familiar to you, Mr. Krasniqi?
17 A. Yes. This map was shown to me by the people from the Tribunal,
18 the ones who took my statement.
19 Q. You see here 0900. That's the marking near the house of Sejdi
20 Batusha. Do you see it, or do we need to zoom in?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you. What does that mean, 0900? Do you remember?
23 A. 9.00 in the morning when we were taken out to the street, from
24 the courtyard of Sejdi Batusha's house to the street, and there we were
25 separated men from women and children. The women and children were told
1 to go to Albania
2 Q. So that's the meaning of this number, 0900?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Krasniqi.
5 Can you tell us today, who ordered you to line up three by three,
6 and who told the women to go and drown or go to Albania with the
8 A. The policemen in uniform, and they also had yellow and white
9 bands on their arms.
10 Q. Did you recognize the police officers? Were these people you
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you know the meaning of these yellow and white bands?
14 A. No, I didn't.
15 Q. That occasion, did they take away your wallets, valuables, money?
16 A. They took everything we had in our pockets - money, ID papers -
17 and we had to hold our hands behind our heads.
18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Krasniqi. Tell me, how did the policemen do that
20 A. We took the documents and the money out ourselves. Adem Asllani,
21 they called him by name. He was about 60 years old, an elderly man, and
22 they told him to collect everything together, make a pile at the feet of
23 one policeman, and he went back to the place where he was lining up and
24 put his hands behind his head again.
25 Q. Thank you. Tell me, as for these uniformed men, were there any
1 differences in the uniforms that they were wearing on that day?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Thank you. Tell me, what was the colour of the uniforms worn by
4 the people who had yellow and white bands?
5 A. They were all dressed in dark blue uniforms.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have the
8 witness's statement displayed on the monitor, the one dated the
9 5th of October, 2001. The English version is D001-4218, page 2, please.
10 And the Albanian version, D001-4226, but now it's page 3.
11 In reference to the English version, I would like to draw
12 everyone's attention to paragraphs 10, 11, 12, and 13 of page 2. As for
13 the version in the Albanian language, I would like to draw your attention
14 to page 3, paragraphs 2, 3, 4, 5.
15 Q. The investigator asked you to describe the uniforms that you saw
16 in Mala Krusa on the 26th of March, 1999, on or around that date, and
17 then you said:
18 "The first type of uniform," you are talking about the first type
19 of uniform, you say "... is camouflage. They were paramilitaries, and
20 they were wearing white ribbons on their arms. I did not see any
21 insignia on their uniforms."
22 "The second type of uniform I saw was a combination of green
23 camouflage trousers and a plain green shirt."
24 You say that you think that they could have been the Army of
1 And the last third type -- well, you don't say that on the text,
2 but I add this, you saw was the MUP blue camouflage uniform. These
3 people were wearing yellow ribbons on their arms.
4 Then you say, let me be more specific, that people from the MUP
5 were wearing yellow ribbons and camouflage uniforms. Camouflage uniforms
6 and white ribbons were worn by some other people.
7 First of all, I'm going to ask you whether this is your
8 statement, where this is described. Did you sign that? Is that your
10 A. Yes, I've said that.
11 Q. You will admit that there are major differences between what
12 you've been saying just now a few moments ago and what it was that you
13 stated then. Tell me, what do you say to that?
14 A. I said -- I did say that. I didn't know how to describe them
16 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, let me ask you briefly, then. Can we agree that
17 your statement that you're looking at now is correct or, rather that,
18 what you stated then was the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
20 A. What I said in the statement is true. I have described in there
21 everything that I saw with my own eyes, and I always speak the truth.
22 I'm here to tell only the truth and nothing but the truth.
23 Q. Thank you, Witness.
24 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the Trial
25 Chamber to have these paragraphs from the statement in the English and
1 Albanian language admitted into evidence. The reason is the major
2 difference that exists between what the witness said today and what he
3 said then. He did not refer to green uniforms at all. He only spoke of
4 dark blue uniforms, and therefore I ask that this part of his statement
5 be admitted into evidence.
6 JUDGE PARKER: We'll receive the whole statement, Mr. Djordjevic.
7 It becomes very tricky if you look at only part of a statement.
8 MR. STAMP: May I just say --
9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Stamp.
10 MR. STAMP: -- and my friend keeps saying that there is a major
11 difference. Of course, what's the difference is a matter for the Court
12 to adjudicate upon eventually, but could I just point out that what he
13 says in the statement is that: "I've been asked to describe the uniforms
14 I saw in village on or about the 26th of March."
15 What he was asked earlier in evidence was to describe the
16 uniforms of the persons that were separating the women and the persons
17 that were ordering them to the house.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Stamp, I don't doubt what you're saying, but
19 you will realise that that's the sort of thing that comes in submissions
20 at the relevant time.
21 MR. STAMP: Yes, I agree. But -- [Overlapping speakers]
23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Stamp. That statement will be
24 received, Mr. Djordjevic.
25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D0027, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
2 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Now, I would like to ask to have
3 this witness's statement displayed on the monitor, the one that he gave
4 on the 7th of March, 2002
5 please. In Albanian, the number is D001 - that is Mr. Krasniqi's
6 statement - /4237, again page 2. As for the English version, we are
7 talking about paragraphs 3 and 4. As for the Albanian version, I'm
8 referring to paragraph 3.
9 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, is this your statement, and did you sign it?
10 A. That is my signature, yes.
11 Q. In relation to your transcript, the one that was just admitted
12 into evidence, I would like to remind you here that you are making a
13 correction in terms of paragraph 11, where you said that members of the
14 paramilitary that you saw had yellow ribbons, so the paramilitaries had
15 yellow ribbons. So you are excluding from the previous statement the
16 part where you say blue camouflage uniform that was worn by members of
17 the MUP. Now you say that these are paramilitaries, paramilitaries. On
18 the left side of their chests and on their left arms.
19 This is quite different from what we've heard until now because
20 your statements to this date say that on their arms some had white
21 ribbons, others had yellow ribbons, and now we see a member of the
22 paramilitary you are describing who is wearing a white ribbon on his arm
23 and a yellow ribbon on his chest.
24 Could you please give us a comment, an explanation so that we
25 would understand how come there is this difference and what this is all
1 about, really?
2 A. I don't know why they wore these bands on their arms. They know
3 the reason why they wore those bands.
4 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, we are getting close to the end of our day's work.
5 I can understand that you've lost your concentration a bit. This is hard
6 work for all of us, but I have to repeat something that you obviously did
7 not understand because you are obviously responding to something that I
8 did not even ask you. In your statement that we see on the monitor
9 here -- rather, do we see it?
10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
11 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber hasn't been able to find in this
12 statement the passage that you are putting to the witness,
13 Mr. Djordjevic.
14 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please. Page 2,
15 paragraph 11. Over here, obviously -- just a moment, please. When one
16 works, one is bound to make mistakes too. Obviously, I did not take this
17 down right, so I will apologise. As for the page that we have here, I
18 have a different set of questions. What I asked a few moments ago is
19 something that I really did notice somewhere, where it is stated that
20 there were yellow ribbons on the chest and white ribbons on the arm, but
21 by the end of my cross, I hope that I will be able to find the exact
23 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, what are you be profession at that point in time,
24 on the 26th -- 25th of March, 1999? What was your line of work then?
25 A. Agriculture. It was a farmer.
1 Q. As a farmer, are you aware of the difference -- are you aware of
2 the difference between a house and a barn where cattle are kept?
3 A. Of course I know the difference. A house is a place where people
4 live. Of course I know this.
5 Q. Yesterday, you said that in the house that you were brought to,
6 Rasim Batusha's house, there was hay that was supposed to be used for
7 feeding animals. Did I misunderstand something? It is page 70 of the
8 transcript, paragraphs 5 and 6, so that we have a clear reference what
9 I'm referring to, paragraphs 5 and 6 on page 70. Could you please
10 clarify this, as I assume that it must have been a mistake, but I would
11 like to you tell us.
12 A. He bought that house as a structure, but he himself lived in
13 another house. He kept the fodder for the animals in the first house.
14 Q. Thank you. It is quite clear. I'm going to go back to the first
15 statement that you gave to the investigators of the Tribunal on the 4th
16 of April, 1999, when you said that this house was unfurnished and that no
17 one lived there. So in view of what you are saying today, this seems to
18 be a logical explanation.
19 Now, the next thing I wish to ask you, it will have to do to your
20 statement. Yesterday, it was the first time that you mentioned the two
21 disabled persons were brought in, one you referred to from the very
22 beginning of your testimony, and the other one you mentioned for the very
23 first time only yesterday. What was the reason for not mentioning this
24 other person in your first statements? I think that there have been five
25 altogether up to now that you are testifying before this Trial Chamber.
1 A. I thought I mentioned everything, but as you say we can make
3 Q. Thank you. Did you see these two disabled persons from the room
4 where you were, or, actually, before that, could you just describe to us
5 once again, you said that there were two rooms. In which one of the two
6 rooms were you so that we could understand better what it looked like and
7 where it was in relation to the first room and, again, in relation to the
8 door to the room that you were in.
9 A. I was in the room on the right-hand side, the one that you go in
10 from the road. It had two windows. I was in the far end corner. I was
11 not near the window. On my right-hand side was Zenun Hajdari. He was
12 close to the hay, close to the fodder for the animals that was there in
13 the room where I was.
14 Q. May I infer, then, that this person, this disabled person was not
15 at the door, the entrance door, that is, or close to the entrance door,
16 because if I understand things correctly, you were in the other room that
17 is farther away from the entrance door and that has two windows.
18 A. Sait Hajdari, the disabled person in a wheelchair, he was at the
19 entrance door to the corridor. I entered the room before them, but they
20 didn't allow him to go in. They just left him there by the door. I
21 personally proceeded to the room and went to the far end next to the
23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Krasniqi. You said yesterday that upon entering
24 this room you experienced something terrible, that an execution started,
25 that they started firing at you. You said that they were firing from
1 machine guns through the window. You said that you did not know who it
2 was that fired at you, but I wish to ask you the following.
3 Before they started the fire, you said that they poured some
4 liquid on you as you lay there in the blood of the man above you who had
5 been hit by the fire. Tell me, by carefully studying the case, I realise
6 that you did not mention a single time the pouring of this liquid. How
7 can you explain that, that this is the first time you to refer this
8 liquid and the fact that this is the first time that you mention the ear
9 wounds that took longer to heal than the wounds on your hands? You did
10 not mention something that important ever before your testimony
12 MR. STAMP: Your Honour.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Stamp.
14 MR. STAMP: I think my friend first needs to establish from going
15 through the various statements, whether or not the witness has mentioned
16 that he had injuries to his ears, if that is what the question is about,
17 and the pouring of the liquid because I do believe that the witness did
18 mention that in his testimony before, that liquid was poured.
19 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Well, the point is this liquid
20 was never mentioned.
21 JUDGE PARKER: [Previous translation continues] ... is the
22 mention now of liquid being poured onto the witness rather than a general
23 use of liquid, if I understand Mr. Djordjevic correctly. Yes.
24 Carry on, please, Mr. Djordjevic.
25 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I'll skip the injuries to the
1 ear. I'm asking about the liquid.
2 Q. Why hasn't it been mentioned until today?
3 A. After they fired at us with their firearms, they poured this
4 liquid in order to burn the bodies.
5 Q. My question, Mr. Krasniqi, and I think you understood it the
6 first time, was why did you mention such an important detail for the
7 first time only yesterday in your testimony? In the daily transcript, it
8 was page 71, paragraph 12. Never in all of your statements did you
9 mention that they poured some liquid to burn the bodies. Yesterday was
10 the first time you mentioned it. Why did you never bring that up before?
11 A. I've always mentioned this, and I'm sure that this is true.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Stamp.
13 MR. STAMP: I have in my hand a transcript from his previous
14 testimony in which he clearly says that they threw in a liquid into the
15 room, so what my friend is putting to the witness, that he's saying this
16 for the first time in evidence here yesterday, is not correct. That's
17 the first thing.
18 The second thing is that if there's also a point being made about
19 the liquid being poured on him and not into the room, what he has said
20 consistently yesterday is that liquid was poured into the room, and he
21 said that about two or three times.
22 So I'm -- the primary objection is that it is not correct by
23 telling the witness that he has never said anything about liquid before,
24 and I just ask for reference -- I just indicate to my friend that he
25 could have a look at page 4374 of the transcript in the Milutinovic case.
1 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I quite accept the intervention
2 of my learned friend, Mr. Stamp. My question would then be why such an
3 important detail does not feature in any of the previous statements of
4 this witness given to the investigators. We can see when the statement
5 was given in the Milutinovic case. I really did not see that passage.
6 My omission, and I am guilty, but then let us stipulate that it was said
7 in the Milutinovic case for the first time, and in no prior statement
8 given to the Tribunal or any other organisation investigating the crime
9 was it mentioned. That's my question.
10 Q. Why wasn't it mentioned before that time in the Milutinovic case?
11 A. Every question that was made, I answered it telling the truth.
12 It is more than true that this liquid was poured on the bodies. It
13 didn't have any smell, but it was incendiary because it set the bodies on
14 fire, and then they started to throw hay on the bodies and the maise
16 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation].
17 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, I'm going to ask you for the last time before I
18 suggest that we take the break. Why was it the first time in the
19 Milutinovic case that you mentioned the flammable liquid and never
20 before? Give me any answer, and I'll be happy.
21 A. When I was asked about it, I gave the answer. So when I was
22 asked about this detail, I provided them with the answer, and this is the
23 liquid that caused my burns when I was in that room.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I suppose this is a good time
1 for the break, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Djordjevic.
3 I take it we will finish this witness today, including time for
4 re-examination. Yes.
5 We will adjourn now and resume at 1.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
7 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djordjevic.
9 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'll
10 continue from where I said that anyone who works makes mistakes
11 sometimes. I gave a wrong exhibit number, and I'm sorry about that. I
12 will do my best to finish this cross-examination today so that the
13 witness should not have to stay in The Hague through the weekend.
14 Now, may I ask for D001-4240 to be shown, in English language,
15 page 2; and in Albanian, D001-4244. Thank you.
16 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, look at this Albanian language statement. Is this
17 statement familiar to you? Did you sign it?
18 A. I don't know. I don't know what to say. Maybe I have signed it.
19 I'm not sure.
20 Q. Would you kindly look at page 2 and the part of the statement
21 where it says that you did, indeed, state that, and I'll ask you: Did
22 you state that members of the paramilitary that you had seen had yellow
23 bands on the left side of their chest and white arm bands on the right
24 upper arm?
25 A. I did see them wearing ribbons or bands on their arms, but I
1 can't remember whether -- which arm I said. Maybe I did, but now I don't
2 know for sure.
3 Q. Do you think it's possible that these soldiers whom you referred
4 to as members of the paramilitary -- well, first of all, did you use the
5 term "paramilitary" in that statement of the 7th of March, 2002?
6 A. No, I haven't used the word "paramilitary."
7 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] If that is so, then Your
8 Honours, I will not ask anymore questions on this subject. I'll just
9 like to tender both these statements in their entirety.
10 JUDGE PARKER: They'll be received.
11 THE REGISTRAR: That'll be D00028, Your Honours.
12 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, tell me, who are Slavisa Petkovic and Ljubisa
14 Stankovic? First of all, do you know these people, and if you do, tell
15 me who they are.
16 A. Yes. They are Serbs from our village. They were born and grew
17 up in our village.
18 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, did you remember ever stating that these two
19 persons were in civilian clothes and that they were the ones who covered
20 the bodies with corn husks, that they were not wearing police uniforms,
21 that they were in civilian clothes. Do you remember ever saying that?
22 A. I can't remember now what I said then, but I can tell you now
23 that I saw them when they were throwing corn husks on the people -- on
24 the bodies of the people.
25 Q. Would you please tell me if they were the only ones doing that,
1 throwing corn husks on the bodies, or were there some other people doing
2 the same thing?
3 A. I only saw those two at that moment, only those two I saw when I
4 was at my uncle's house.
5 Q. I understand. Thank you, Mr. Krasniqi. Were they wearing
6 civilian clothes?
7 A. I can't remember now whether they were in civilian clothes or
9 Q. Let me ask you this way: Did you ever see these two people in
10 police uniform?
11 A. I can't remember now at that moment what kind of clothes they
12 were wearing. I just saw them carrying the maise stems. However, I
13 can't remember now what they were dressed in.
14 Q. Do you allow for the possibility, then, in your statement of the
15 7th of March, 2002, you said that they were in fact two Serb civilians
16 engaged in that activity? Do you think that's possible?
17 A. I said it then and I'm saying it now, that it was those two, but
18 I can't remember what kinds of clothes they were wearing. Now I can't
19 remember even what I said at the time about the clothes.
20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Krasniqi. Tell me, you said today before this
21 Court that Refki Rashkaj and Jeton Shehu were seen by you running when
22 you left your uncle's house that evening. Did you say that they are
23 actually survivors, that they were not victims of the massacre you are
24 telling us about?
25 A. I saw them in the forest, close to the stream. They were not
1 killed in the massacre, but when they had tried to escape. I did not see
2 them in the beginning, but when I was trying to leave, I saw them, that
3 they had been killed there in the forest.
4 Q. You said that yesterday for the first time, or did you mention
5 that in your prior statements or in the testimony in the Milutinovic
6 case, concerning Refki Rashkaj and Adnan Shehu. You did mention them
7 before, as far as I know.
8 A. I believe that I mentioned it when I testified the other times,
9 but I'm not sure.
10 Q. Thank you. Would you tell me, Mr. Krasniqi, are you able to tell
11 the Court today whether Adnan Shehu and Refki Rashkaj were killed and, if
12 so, how they were killed, or did they have a different fate? I want to
13 clear that up, and whatever you say, please tell us how you know what you
15 A. I don't know how they were killed because I did not see them when
16 they were killed. I just saw them dead. When we were in those two rooms
17 and the corridor, I know that they were inside, but I don't know how they
18 got out, how they fled. When I got out myself, I thought that I was the
19 only one who had survived the massacre, and everybody else had perished.
20 There were no other survivors.
21 Q. Could you agree with me that you saw them killed on the 26th of
22 March, 1999, as you say?
23 A. Yes, in the evening.
24 Q. Can you explain why, to the investigators of the ICTY and the
25 international organisations that questioned you, you said nothing about
1 these events and you didn't mention them until yesterday?
2 A. I think I did mention them. I know that they had been killed. I
3 don't think that what you said is true, that I did not mention them.
4 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, be so kind as to answer another question.
5 Yesterday, when you were speaking of events in Nogavac, it's page 76 of
6 yesterday's transcript, pages 19, 20, and so on, you said the Serbs took
7 your money and told you to stay in the village until further notice,
8 until you move on to Albania
9 mentioned for the first time yesterday. You had not spoken before that
10 about the events in Nogavac and these particular details; correct me if
11 I'm wrong.
12 A. Everything I said is accurate. I was in Nogavac. About the
13 money that had been taken from the people, this is what I heard from
14 other persons.
15 Q. The only thing that worries me and concerns me is that you never
16 mentioned that before until yesterday. You also said that the people who
17 were going from Kosovo to Albania
18 the border crossing and that they had to throw their passports onto a
19 pile. That's also in yesterday's transcript. All that I had occasion to
20 study, all the evidence that I had from you in this case and in others,
21 doesn't feature any reference to this, not until yesterday.
22 MR. STAMP: Your Honour, I -- I don't want to say I'm certain,
23 but I don't think what counsel is putting to the witness again is
24 correct, that the witness never said these things before. I do believe
25 that in the mass -- in the Milutinovic trial, and also in a previous
1 statement the witness has mentioned that persons were -- that property
2 was taken from people at the border. I'll try to find the references.
3 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, when you described the event on the border crossing
5 when they kept you tied to the radiator --
6 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] May I ask for the statement of
7 the 4th of April, 1999, to be shown again, D001-4180, and Albanian,
9 Q. You did not mention the two members of the KLA from Retimlje
10 yesterday. Can you tell us very briefly about this? I read that in your
11 statement. Can you just clarify, very briefly.
12 A. Those people from Retija [phoen] were not from the KLA. They
13 were wearing civilian clothes. They were inside that border crossing
14 point where I was taken. I was tied up. I don't know anything further.
15 Q. Thank you. Regarding the injuries you sustained as you were
16 escaping the -- from the execution site, did you receive any treatment in
18 A. Yes. I was in Kukes. I just received some treatment there.
19 People were coming in droves, and they needed help. I left and as I
20 said, I used alternative medication, bear fat.
21 Q. Do you have any medical documentation from the time?
22 A. Nothing, no documentation at all.
23 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, from the statement of the 4th of April, we see a
24 large number of names with their age and details about families, their
25 full names, their age, et cetera. Can you tell us briefly how in the
1 situation that prevailed then you managed to compile such a complete list
2 with so many details?
3 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] It's yesterday's transcript page
4 70, paragraph 16.
5 Q. And I'm asking you this because in response to the Prosecution on
6 the subject, you answered: I did not count them then, and I don't count
7 them now because that causes me pain.
8 I understand your pain, but what does it mean, that you didn't
9 count them then and you are not counting them now, although we have a
10 list of 100 persons, which the Prosecution says you drew up.
11 A. People from the Tribunal, when they took my statement, they asked
12 me for the names. I knew how many people entered the location where the
13 massacre occurred, and I mentioned the names of those people. I had
14 burns. I was traumatised. I was scared. However, I did mention the
15 names, and they took them down.
16 Q. Precisely. Because of the circumstances that prevailed, I'm
17 surprised by the completeness and precision you displayed in compiling
18 this list and also by the power of your memory. That's why I'm asking,
19 did you draw up the list alone or together with some other people?
20 A. Nobody from the village, from my village was there. God help me,
21 these people are still missing. There are mothers left without sons and
22 without male members of the family. These people have perished. We
23 don't know where their remains are, and you might well know where the
24 people from Serbia
25 Q. I'm asking you if anybody helped you compile the list. I didn't
1 mean only the men. I meant perhaps the wives and mothers that you were
2 with at the time. That's all I meant.
3 A. On the 4th of April, I hadn't met anyone from the village.
4 Q. Thank you. Would you be able to enumerate all the villages today
5 before the Court, to tell us everybody's age, and list all the households
6 and families in the village?
7 A. Even to this day, I cannot count all of them. I wouldn't be able
8 to mention all the names. I don't feel well to this day.
9 Q. Thank you. Could you please answer another question for me, the
10 same transcript. I am sorry about this, Mr. Krasniqi, seriously. I have
11 one more question to put to you. It has to do with your same statement
12 of the 4th of April. You say in your statement: Now I'm a refugee in
14 Who was it that chose you to make this statement for the ICTY?
15 MR. STAMP: Just a minute. Just a minute, please. Perhaps
16 there's a translation issue here, but I think we should refer to the
17 precise language used in the signed document before the Court because
18 that is at odds with all what my friend just read.
19 JUDGE PARKER: The word has been translated in English
20 as "elected" rather than "chosen." If there's a difference which is
21 relevant, I'm not sure what it is, but your point is, Were you chosen or
22 elected by somebody; if so, who? I think you should proceed with that
23 question, Mr. Djordjevic.
24 MR. STAMP: If I may respectfully, Your Honour, I think what was
25 quoted to the witness was that he had -- that he was chosen.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. Chosen rather than elected.
2 MR. STAMP: Yes, but used in the context that he was chosen by
3 someone else. He was chosen. He is saying in his statement that he
4 himself elected or chose to give a statement.
5 JUDGE PARKER: I see now the distinction you make, Mr. Stamp --
6 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE PARKER: -- which I didn't earlier. I'm sorry.
8 Have you follow that, Mr. Djordjevic?
9 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed. Indeed. Indeed.
10 It has to do with the translation into B/C/S that is part of the OTP
11 documentation, also because of the translation into Albanian. That's why
12 I put this question. This error should not remain an error as such.
13 That is why I'm asking the witness to say what Mr. Stamp said just now,
14 if that is the case. It's not that I doubt anything, but I would just
15 like to finish my cross-examination as soon as possible, but I would like
16 to hear directly from the witness, and this is really one of the
17 difficulties involved in these proceedings, among others.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Krasniqi, I think the essence of what's being
19 asked of you is, Did you yourself volunteer to come forward and make a
20 statement, or did someone else or some other people push you forward to
21 give the statement?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wasn't pushed by
23 anyone into giving this statement. I wasn't chosen or elected by anyone.
24 This was my statement. I still have the marks on my hands. The person
25 who was on top of me, his blood was still on me to the day I went to
1 Kukes. I still have clothes that have been burnt, but I didn't want
2 these people to die in vain, and that's where I got my will from. I
3 wanted people to hear about that.
4 To this day, we still don't know where the bodies of these
5 victims are, the bodies of these men who were burnt to ashes. This was
6 the only driving force for me to come here to the Tribunal and tell the
7 truth. To this days, it's not easy for me, believe me. I don't feel
8 good when I speak about all these men who died.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Krasniqi.
10 Is there something further, Mr. Djordjevic?
11 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] This is exactly what I wish to
12 do, as well, to thank the witness. That is what I thought the situation
13 was, but I felt that this had to be corrected because this is a bad
14 mistake in the translation, and I think that it could lead to a lot of
15 confusion during the proceedings, so I think it's best dealt with right
17 Before I complete my cross-examination now today, I would just
18 like to clarify another thing that I heard today and did not find very
19 clear. I heard from the witness say today that 20 bodies were
20 identified, and he says: I never found out where the others were. Did I
21 hear this right, or is this a mistake? I heard that today as his words
22 during the direct examination carried out by my learned friend,
23 Mr. Stamp.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As to the remaining bodies, that we
25 don't know, where they are. The Serbs only know where their remains,
1 their ashes were taken to once they cleaned the location of the massacre.
2 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] And what about these 20
3 identified bodies that the witness is referring to?
4 Q. What is this all about, Mr. Krasniqi? I'm asking you, actually.
5 A. Some remains were found. They were identified. This is what
7 Q. Thank you. I would like to ask you to tell us who it was that
8 identified these mortal remains, and where were they found, actually,
9 because this is the first time we hear of this, and it is very important.
10 A. I don't know who identified the remains and where these remains
11 were found.
12 Q. Can you tell us since your memory remains intact as to the
13 persons who were killed during this massacre, who were the persons that
14 were among these 20? I would suggest that you even be allowed to use
15 your statement from the 6th of April, 1999, so that we would know who the
16 persons identified were and whose mortal remains were found. You didn't
17 tell us, though, where they were found and who identified them, but
18 obviously, that was the case. We see that, too, because to this day the
19 OTP never provided information, a single case about 20 identified
20 citizens of Mala Krusa after the massacre that took place on the 26th of
21 March, 1999.
22 Can you do that now, Mr. Krasniqi?
23 A. Unfortunately, I cannot help you as to who identified the remains
24 and where these remains were found. This I don't know.
25 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, just one more question. As for Dmitrije Nikolic,
1 your neighbor, you kept saying yesterday when you spoke about him that
2 you saw him in police uniform, that the policemen gathered at his place.
3 Tell me, what was he by profession, Mr. Krasniqi?
4 A. He worked in a wine cellar.
5 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, tell me, did he have a kind of cafe or coffee bar
6 or some kind of a catering facility in his house where citizens gathered
7 before, as well, the citizens of Mala Krusa, that is.
8 A. Yes. People came to this cafe that he opened, the police.
9 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence could
10 put a large number of questions to this witness, and I have them noted
11 down here. However, what we heard from this witness today will suffice
12 for the Defence case that will be developed as we go along, and I'm going
13 to thank Mr. Krasniqi today for having testified today, for having come
14 to this court to enable us to get as much information as possible to the
15 best of his ability, and with those remarks I would like to end my
16 cross-examination of Mr. Krasniqi today. Thank you.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Djordjevic.
18 Is there any re-examination, Mr. Stamp?
19 MR. STAMP: Just a couple questions, Your Honour.
20 Re-examination by Mr. Stamp:
21 Q. You were asked today about the houses that were set on fire while
22 you were in the forest and otherwise. You said you don't know how they
23 were set on fire, but you saw smoke coming from the village. Can you
24 just tell us, what were -- what was the condition of the Albanian houses
25 as you saw when you returned to your village in July or June 1999?
1 A. When I came back from Albania
2 destroyed, burned down. They were turned to ashes. The state was
3 miserable. Only there were some walls still standing.
4 Q. You were shown a document which became D27, and that is your
5 statement of the 5th of October, 2001, I think - yes - in which you
6 described three types of uniforms that you saw -- according to this
7 document you say that you saw in Krusha e Vogel on or about the 26th of
8 March, 1999. Earlier, I had asked you about the uniforms of the persons
9 who were involved in separating the women from the men and ushering you
10 into the house or the barn where the executions took place, and you said
11 that these were -- those persons who did that were in blue police
13 What I'd like to ask you is this: Where did you see the persons
14 who were wearing the green camouflage uniforms and the combination of
15 green camouflage trousers and plain green shirt that is referred to in
16 your statement of October 2001? Where did you see these persons in the
17 various types of green uniforms?
18 A. These were on the road, standing on the sides of the road while
19 we were there on the road with our hands on our heads.
20 Q. Thank you. And lastly, if you could look at the statement, and
21 this is -- this had become Exhibit P305, but I think you have it in front
22 of you, the list. If you could look back at the list, please,
23 Mr. Krasniqi.
24 MR. STAMP: And if we could bring up --
25 Q. You said in answer to the question from my learned friend that
1 Aziz Shehu was also executed in the house. If you look at the last page
2 of the list, or in English it's the penultimate page, and I think it's
3 probably the penultimate page in Albanian as well. Can you look on your
4 list there for where you have listed the people from the Shehu family.
5 You will see third from last on the list Haziz, age 42. Do you see that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is that the Haziz Shehu that you said was also killed in
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. STAMP: May I just have a moment to consult with my
11 colleagues, Your Honour.
12 [Prosecution counsel confer]
13 MR. STAMP:
14 Q. It was suggested to you in the course of cross-examination that
15 you didn't say anything about your ear being burnt, and we showed, I
16 think, a video in which you were showing the burn injury to your ear and
17 to the side of your head. Who told the investigator at that time about
18 the injury, the burn injury to your ear? Did you do that?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]
21 ... Your Honours, but I have to react. We did not hear any
22 interpretation where the witness explains that his ear was injured. We
23 just saw the picture, part of the video-clip where his injured ear is
24 shown, and I would appreciate it very much if my learned friend did not
25 ask this question. The witness didn't definitely not say, My ear is
1 hurt. We just saw the picture.
2 MR. STAMP: Yes, I agree that we saw the picture, but I'm just
3 asking the person -- the witness, sorry, how is it that the investigators
4 knew that his ear was to be focussed upon, that his ear was burnt during
5 the incident of the execution, and the witness has answered anyway that
6 he was the person that told them about it, and that is why they did the
8 Thank you very much, Your Honours. I have nothing further in
10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Stamp.
11 Mr. Krasniqi, you'll be pleased to know that that completes the
12 questions for you. The Chamber would like to thank you for coming to The
13 Hague and for the help you've been able to give us and the way you have
14 been able to answer the questions that were put to you. We're grateful
15 for what you have done, and now the court officers will show you from the
16 courtroom and make other arrangements in due course for you to return to
17 your home. Thank you.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Stamp, you have that look of expectation on
20 your face.
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 MR. STAMP: If I may just mention one thing with your leave, I
23 had promised earlier with respect to P305 to give an accurate count as to
24 the amount of names that are on that list. I must confess that I needed
25 to confirm because every time I myself counted it, I got a different
1 number varying between 102 and 104. It has now been counted by someone
2 who is much more capable of counting than I am, a better counter, and
3 there are 103 names on the list. And according to the evidence, three of
4 those persons were not in the room; that is, Sefer Batusha and Muharrem
5 Batusha's nephew, and also son of Sinan Shehu, and also according to the
6 testimony, Lufti Ramadani and Qamil Shehu were in the room but survived.
7 And these are the persons on the list. So it's 103 minus 5. I hope I
8 have done what I indicated I would do.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. You will be supported in
10 that respect by the count made by the Judges, and we, too reach 103.
11 MR. STAMP: I see. I was the only person mistaken, then.
12 JUDGE PARKER: So with that comforting reassurance that we have
13 got the number correct, we will adjourn now and continue on Monday.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.
15 to be reconvened on Monday, the 16th day of
16 February, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.