Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1236

 1                           Friday, 20 February 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5                           [The witness entered court]

 6                           WITNESS:  NIKE PERAJ [Resumed]

 7                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  I would remind you the affirmation you made at the

11     beginning of your evidence still applies.  Now Mr. Djordjevic has some

12     questions for you.

13             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14                           Cross-examination by Mr. Djordjevic:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Peraj, good morning.  I'm Dragoljub

16     Djordjevic, attorney at law, Defence counsel for the accused Vlastimir

17     Djordjevic, and I would like to put some questions to you.  I hope that

18     through them we will be able to better explain the situation in terms of

19     the facts concerning everything that you have stated so far in all ways,

20     written statements, oral statements, testimony and so on and so forth.

21             Mr. Peraj, first of all, I would be interested in your personal

22     details.  First of all, I would like to hear what your wife's name is,

23     where she is from, from what town.

24             MR. STAMP:  Your Honour, I think --

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp.

Page 1237

 1             MR. STAMP:  I think -- although I rise with regret, but I think

 2     if we're going to proceed in that direction, counsel first needs to

 3     indicate to the Court what possible relevance the domestic affairs of the

 4     witness could be to the issues in this case.

 5             Secondly, counsel needs to consider whether or not wherever he's

 6     going, if it is at all appropriate, should be done in private session.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic.

 8             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I appreciate what Mr. Stamp

 9     said, Your Honour.  However, the questions that I'm going to put are not

10     of a nature that would require closed session.  The questions are such so

11     that we would get a general impression as to where he lived, how he

12     lived, what he did, and under what conditions he later left the Army of

13     Yugoslavia, I mean Mr. Peraj.  Those are the reasons why my questions are

14     moving in that direction.

15             As for the broader context, I assume that my colleague Mr. Stamp

16     is going to interrupt me several times.  That is what I wish to say at

17     this point.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic, the Chamber is not persuaded that

20     there would be in this line of questioning anything of sufficient

21     relevance to justify the time it would take.  We are interested in

22     learning about the facts of -- that are relevant to this case.  If there

23     was some very particular issue about the personal life of the witness in

24     general terms, that might be different, but a general examination is

25     something which seems to the Chamber to be quite beyond what we would

Page 1238

 1     value hearing.  So if you could move on to some other area of

 2     questioning.  Thank you.

 3             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Trial Chamber

 4     has ruled, so I'm not going to go into the reasons that led me to adopt

 5     this line of questioning.  However, I'm going to move on in a far more

 6     direct manner than until now, I believe.

 7        Q.   Could the witness tell us how many brothers and sisters he has

 8     and where they were in 1999, whether they were in Kosovo and Metohija.

 9             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] In order for you to understand

10     my line of questioning, my question is whether any of the witness's close

11     relatives or distant relatives were members of the KLA.  When I ask this,

12     my question is actually put in relation to his more distant relatives,

13     his brothers-in-law and so on.  We hear that the witness is from Ramoc,

14     and my question is in that context.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Please proceed.

16             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   I expect to hear your answer.  I don't know if you've heard the

18     question.

19        A.   Yes, I did hear the question.  I have four brothers, four

20     sisters.  My father died in the year 2000.  My mother is still alive.

21     One brother and his sons lived in Dallashaj during the war, and he still

22     lives there now, while the three other brothers were not in Kosovo at all

23     during the war because they live and work in Switzerland.

24             This is my answer.

25        Q.   The second part of my question was whether any of your distant

Page 1239

 1     relatives or close relatives were members of the KLA.

 2        A.   No one from my family was ever a member of the KLA.  As regards

 3     distant relatives, I don't know.  If you mean distant relatives, the

 4     extended family, well, it would be a long story.

 5        Q.   Thank you for your answer, sir, Mr. Peraj.  Let us clarify

 6     something.  There seem to have been several problems in relation to your

 7     question that Mr. Pal Gjokaj or Paul Gjokaj.  I'm not sure because in the

 8     transcripts we have different names that appear, and in your statements

 9     too.  Let me remind you, this is a person who said you conveyed your

10     information that the terrorists of the KLA would be attacked in the

11     village of Ramoc.  Later on, you said that that was the reason why they

12     did not liquidate you, I mean the members of the KLA.  "Most probably,"

13     those were your words.  But who is Mr. Gjoklaj?  Is he related to you at

14     all?  You did say something, and you kept saying that he was a

15     brother-in-law or something to that effect.  Let us try to clarify the

16     matter.

17        A.   First of all, Pal Gjoklaj never informed me personally where the

18     KLA units were.  Secondly, Pal Gjoklaj is [Realtime transcript read in

19     error, "not"] my wife's brother.

20        Q.   That's not my question.  That was not my question.  I'm asking

21     you about the part of the statement that you gave.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Stamp.

23             MR. STAMP:  I'm just wondering as a matter of the record.  I see

24     here at line 17, "Pal Gjoklaj is not my wife's brother."  When I think I

25     heard a translation in the positive.  I think.  I might have been wrong.

Page 1240

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 2             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  We didn't heard translation in B/C/S.  I'm

 3     talking because of my client, what Mr. Stamp said.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Just carry on, please, Mr. Djordjevic.

 5             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   So please, Mr. Peraj, could you enunciate his name very

 7     specifically now because we really want to have his right name in the

 8     transcript.  It's Gjoklaj, it's Gjokaj, it's Pal, it's other things, so

 9     could you please slowly enunciate his name so we that have it for the

10     record?

11        A.   I can see here on the transcript, although I don't read English,

12     but it's correct in the transcript:  Pal Gjoklaj.

13        Q.   Excellent.  My next question:  You stated in your statement that

14     he is your wife's brother; is that correct, your wife's brother?

15        A.   Correct.

16        Q.   Thank you.  In our language there's an expression for that, I

17     mean in B/C/S.  The word is "surak" in B/C/S.  That is brother-in-law,

18     wife's brother.  So you will agree that "surak" would be the right word

19     for that particular relationship; right?

20        A.   I agree, yes.  "Surak" means the wife's brother.  So my wife's

21     brother in this case.

22        Q.   To go back what I had said, you mentioned to this person, your

23     brother-in-law, your surak, that there would be an action against the KLA

24     and that this had to do with the village of Ramoc.  Yesterday, you

25     explained that there's a village called Madanaj right next to Ramoc and

Page 1241

 1     that's where the forces were.  You did not have full knowledge about

 2     this.  You said that there was no KLA in Ramoc.  So could you tell me,

 3     why did you say to your wife's brother that on the following day or

 4     whenever, an action was being prepared against the KLA?  What was the

 5     point of that message?

 6        A.   First of all, the villages Madanaj and Ramoc are next to each

 7     other.  The place where the KLA soldiers were is very close to the house

 8     of Pal Gjoklaj.  Previously, the KLA soldiers were not there at all, not

 9     even close to that area.  I received information from several people that

10     they were there.  This was at the beginning of June 1999.

11             After the massacres in Meje and Korenice, a lot of blood had been

12     shed.  Many people had been killed, and these people had gone there to be

13     closer to Gjakove, in order to enter Gjakove, because the Kumanovo

14     agreement had been signed for the withdrawal of the forces from Kosova.

15             For this reason, it had been planned for all of them to be

16     liquidated together with 40 civilians that had been together with them,

17     people who had been in the mountains and had survived the Meje massacre;

18     and for that reason, knowing what kind of massacre had happened there, I

19     thought that these people should not die in vain.  And if this action

20     would take place, some families that were in the Ramoc village, ten

21     families altogether, would suffer.

22             At that time, almost everything was over, the war was over, and

23     that is the reason why I informed Pal Gjoklaj to tell them to leave the

24     place they were in at the time.

25             This is my answer.

Page 1242

 1        Q.   Mr. Peraj, you said that at that time the Kumanovo agreements had

 2     already been signed.  It is a generally known fact, and therefore, I'm

 3     not going to show you any documents in relation to this particular

 4     matter, but we all know that immediately after the Kumanovo agreement was

 5     signed, the army and the police of Serbia withdraw from -- withdrew from

 6     the area, especially from the area of Djakovica.  So logistically, they

 7     started preparing for withdrawal straight away.  They started withdrawing

 8     their materiel and technical resources.  That is the right expression for

 9     all the resources of this kind that an army has.  You were a member of

10     the army, so I'm sure that you're familiar with it.  So I would like to

11     know about these activities in June.

12             It was clear to everyone that the army and the police and the

13     paramilitaries were withdrawing at the time since NATO forces were

14     entering.  So that's my first question.  Why was this done, and where did

15     you get information about the presence of the KLA in that area?  How did

16     you come about such information?

17        A.   On that day when the people who were there would be attacked in

18     the evening, I met Dragan Pekovic, who was a postman.  He was, in fact, a

19     guardsman at the post office.  His son, Aleksandar Pekovic, was a

20     policeman, and Dragan asked me whether I would take part in the action in

21     the evening.  I said to him that I didn't know anything about any action.

22     What kind of action are you talking about, I asked him.  He told me that,

23     This is the last time that my son will take part in such an action, and

24     that if his son would survive this action, nothing would happen to him

25     anymore, so in the meaning that his son would not die in action.

Page 1243

 1             This is my answer.

 2        Q.   Did the postman know you personally?

 3        A.   He's my neighbour in Dallashaj.  He lived there since he was a

 4     child.  We've been neighbours, and we've been very close.  Then he went

 5     to live in Piskote.  He worked as a postman in the village of Skivjan.

 6     Our children know each other as well.

 7        Q.   He asked you whether you were prepared to go into action in the

 8     village of Ramoc where your closest relatives live, where your closest

 9     family members live; right?  That's what he asked you?

10        A.   Dragan asked me, Are you going to take part in the action tonight

11     in the evening?  And I asked him, What are you talking about; I never

12     took part in any action.  And he told me all the details that I explained

13     to you.  He told me about the members of the KLA.

14        Q.   It would be clearer to me if he had said to you, There's going to

15     be an action; try to get your own people out, your own family members.

16     But I don't really understand this.  But never mind, that's your answer.

17             Now you're referring to a part of your statement that is in

18     paragraph 105 where you describe this particular event.

19             The second part of my question was:  How was it you knew, first

20     of all, that there was some KLA Brigade out there?  How did you know that

21     personally?  And how did you have very specific information about this

22     brigade, namely that there were 126 members in uniform and 40 volunteers?

23     This is the very beginning of paragraph 105.  You say --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel please slow down.  We cannot

25     follow him.

Page 1244

 1             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   [No interpretation]

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters did not interpret what was

 4     read out.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  You're going too fast for the interpreters.

 6             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  Yes.  I appreciate that, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Perhaps you could put a short question, and the

 8     interpreters can take it up.

 9             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour.  I'm

10     looking at the transcript now to see what was in the transcript at all.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The reference to paragraph

12     105, that was read out very fast.  That's what we didn't interpret.

13             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   You said in paragraph 105 in the beginning of June 1999, the Army

15     of Yugoslavia and the MUP surrounded in Ramoc the 137th Brigade of the

16     KLA, about 126 uniformed members and 40 volunteers.  That is the very

17     beginning of paragraph 105 of your statement.  I'm asking you the

18     following:  How do you know at that moment that the KLA was in Ramoc, in

19     that village; and secondly, how is it that you have this very specific

20     information like 126 uniformed members and 40 volunteers?  That is the

21     first part of my question.

22        A.   I learned this later from Pal Gjoklaj and some other people who

23     were there in the 137th Brigade.  I mean, they told me about the numbers,

24     the 126 and the 40 people.

25             When I went to Pal Gjoklaj to tell him and warn him, I didn't

Page 1245

 1     know the numbers, but a couple of days later I learnt the number of

 2     people that were there.  After the war, I heard the same thing about the

 3     number of people who were there.

 4        Q.   Regardless of what kind of a military formation it was, the

 5     figures, especially during the war, are strictly confidential.  Could you

 6     please tell me whether Pal Gjoklaj gave you -- gave you this information

 7     because you worked as some kind of an intelligence officer for the Army

 8     of Yugoslavia, or was it in some other context?  Could you please explain

 9     that.  What other context could it be for these exact figures to be given

10     to you, and why is it important at all after everything is said and done?

11     What is the nature of your contact with Pal Gjoklaj, and what was the

12     context in which this exact figure for volunteers and uniformed persons

13     was -- were given to you?  I think that it should be treated as top

14     secret for such a military formation during the war.  So in what context

15     were you talking about that?

16        A.   Your Honours, I would kindly ask you to instruct the counsel to

17     ask me short and clearly defined questions, not three, four, five

18     questions at once.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  I think that's a valid point, Mr. Djordjevic.  If

20     you look, you've got about, in the transcript, ten lines in which you

21     have indicated three or four different things you want to inquire about.

22     I think it would help everybody if you could just deal with them one at a

23     time and just go through it that way rather than put the whole picture

24     with a number of questions all at once.  Thank you.

25             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will comply to

Page 1246

 1     the extent in which it is possible, but in this situation where I asked

 2     this question over ten lines or a few questions, I did it in a way which

 3     I deemed to be necessary, but let me try to rephrase it to make it as

 4     short as possible.

 5        Q.   Will you agree with me, Mr. Gjoklaj -- or, rather, Mr. Peraj,

 6     that at that time the information about the strength of the 137th Brigade

 7     of the Kosovo Liberation Army should have been treated as a military

 8     secret given that there was a state of war?  Would you agree with me?

 9        A.   For the Yugoslav Army, for the MUP, yes, it would be a military

10     secret, but not for this.  I don't see any secrecy here.  They were 126

11     members and 40 volunteers.  I don't know why it would constitute a secret

12     for him to tell me.  He told me that this was the case.  Now, as to

13     whether he gave away the secrets of the KLA or not, that is of no

14     relevance to me.

15             This is my answer.  I will continue with another question that

16     you asked.  Pal Gjoklaj and some others told me later that what I did was

17     in fact very good because these people survived, and they didn't

18     [microphone not activated] at risk, and they didn't undertake any

19     military action.  You may call them terrorists.  Maybe I can call them

20     terrorists, too, but they had their own name:  The Kosovo Liberation

21     Army.  We can call them as we wish, but this is what they were called.

22        Q.   At that time, you were an officer of the Yugoslav Army.  Did you

23     take an oath of loyalty to that organisation that you belonged to?  Did

24     you take an oath?

25        A.   I did take an oath, but this was not an oath for me to work

Page 1247

 1     against the constitution of former Yugoslavia or against the

 2     international convention, because Yugoslavia was a signatory of these

 3     international conventions, and if you abide by them you should not kill

 4     people on the streets.  They did not undertake any actions.  They had

 5     free hands to imprison them all and treat them as POWs but not execute

 6     them.  Excuse me, but I have the right to refuse to carry out such

 7     orders.

 8        Q.   [Previous translation continues]... that later.  You're now

 9     wasting our precious time.  This is not about refusing to obey orders.

10     Please don't go out of the context of my questions.  I asked you whether

11     you took an oath and you said yes.  So my next question -- please,

12     please.  So we are agreed.  I promised that I would be concise and brief.

13     So could you please give me brief answers and have some respect for the

14     time that we all here in the courtroom have because if you answer outside

15     of what I asked you, then it just makes no sense.

16             Nobody said that civilians should get killed.  We are now talking

17     about the KLA, and that's why I'm asking you this.  You took an oath.  At

18     that time, you were a member of the Army of Yugoslavia.  You tell Pal

19     Gjoklaj that the KLA should get out of there because an action was

20     underway.

21             I want to ask you this:  Who did you work for at the time?  So we

22     have one military force, the Kosovo Liberation Army, the KLA, whatever

23     it's called, and we have another force, the Yugoslav Army.  At that time,

24     the Yugoslav Army is directly confronted -- it confronts the KLA in a

25     war.  So now I'm asking --

Page 1248

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic, you're now getting into another

 2     extremely long speech.  You asked a question, whether the witness whether

 3     he had taken an oath.  He has said yes.  I think your next question is:

 4     "Were you at that time a member of the Yugoslav Army," and the witness

 5     has yet had an opportunity -- not yet had an opportunity to answer that.

 6     If you can see what I mean?  Just get to the point to the question.

 7             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Judge, please, please.  Before I

 8     go on, I will, of course, comply with everything that you've just told

 9     me, but I would like to ask the witness to answer my questions the way I

10     ask them because the witness is moving away from the context, obviously.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  That's why I've intervened.  You're not just

12     asking a question; you're making a speech, putting in lots of facts that

13     you want to be understood.  You need to put a short question to the

14     witness and get from the witness an answer, yes or no.  If you agree with

15     the answer, you move on to your next question.  If you don't agree with

16     the answer, you can ask something else about that.  Okay?  We really must

17     move on dealing specifically with short questions if we're to get

18     anywhere.  Thank you.

19             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  This is crystal clear to

20     me, but I don't get specific answers, so I have to apologise for being

21     long-winded here.

22        Q.   Were you a member of the Yugoslav Army at that time?  Did you at

23     that time collaborate with the Kosovo Liberation Army - that's in early

24     June - or no?

25        A.   I was a member of the former Yugoslav Army.  I did not

Page 1249

 1     collaborate with the UCK or KLA.

 2        Q.   Did you tell Pal Gjoklaj that an action was in the offing and

 3     that the KLA should pull out from that area?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   So you don't consider that to be tantamount to collaboration with

 6     the KLA and giving away military secrets of the Army of Yugoslavia?  I'm

 7     talking about only the KLA here.

 8        A.   Because of what I had seen in Meje, in Korenice, and other

 9     places, at that moment I was not at all interested in the fact of whether

10     they were KLA or terrorists or whatever.  They were human beings to me.

11     I didn't want anyone to die in vain.  I helped people who were of Serb

12     and Montenegrin ethnicity too.

13        Q.   My next question is this:  Were you able to inform only the

14     civilians that they should take shelter because there was an action about

15     to be launched by the Yugoslav Army?  Could you have done that?

16        A.   I informed him for the whole group, the civilians that were

17     together with the Brigade that met the Brigade in the mountains.  These

18     40 persons were persons who escaped from the convoy on the 27th of April.

19     Therefore, I told Pal to inform them, the group, so that they could leave

20     and not remain there.  Otherwise, they will be liquidated.  I even told

21     him where they can take shelter and survive.

22        Q.   Those were your neighbours, villagers from the village where you

23     yourself were born.  You explained to the Judges that you used your

24     authority to prevent the execution of 12 of your fellow countrymen,

25     people of the same ethnic background, and you mentioned the Scepanovic

Page 1250

 1     and others.  Could you have done the same thing now to protect the

 2     civilians as you had done on that occasion using your authority?

 3        A.   The civilians were together with the KLA members.

 4        Q.   Could you please tell me, you said that there were 40 volunteers

 5     in addition to 126 uniformed members.  Does it mean that the 40

 6     volunteers were not in uniforms?  Am I correct if I understand it in that

 7     way?

 8        A.   The word "volunteer" is not correct in this context.  They were

 9     not volunteers as such.  They were volunteers to join their family to

10     wherever they went.  They met the KLA members in the mountains, and the

11     KLA took them under their care so that they could help them with food and

12     everything else.  I wouldn't call them proper volunteers.

13        Q.   What would you call them?

14        A.   I would in fact call them lost, people without hope.

15        Q.   Were they actually members of the KLA, or were they volunteers?

16     Because I assume that elements of the KLA were organised on a voluntary

17     basis at that time, or can we say at that time it was already a

18     professionally organised army?

19        A.   At the moment they left their families and took to the mountains

20     in order to avoid the check-point, these persons, in my opinion, are not

21     persons who joined the KLA.  Even if we assume they were volunteers or

22     they were armed, that would not be a big deal in my view.

23        Q.   Well, your opinion is quite clear to me.  I will not be asking

24     any more questions about that.  Let me go back to your brother-in-law,

25     Pal Gjoklaj, that person who attended some of your interviews when you

Page 1251

 1     gave statements after the Yugoslav Army pulled out of Kosovo.  So Pal or

 2     Paul Gjoklaj, was he present when you were giving those statements?

 3        A.   Pal Gjoklaj was present.  I was in his house.  Pal Gjoklaj is an

 4     English teacher, and to be honest, he helped the translator, the

 5     interpreter, with certain terms.  He -- the interpreter, was young, not

 6     very experienced, so he helped with the terminology.  Pal Gjoklaj did not

 7     have any other influence.

 8        Q.   As regards the written statements that you gave to the KLA

 9     members immediately after the pull-out of the army and the police, do you

10     remember doing that?  Do you remember giving a written statement to the

11     KLA members at any time?

12        A.   This is true.  I don't remember the details.  Ten years have

13     passed since.

14        Q.   And was your brother-in-law Gjoklaj also present when those

15     statements were being given or written down?

16        A.   No.  No, no.

17        Q.   Thank you for your answer.  And was Pal Gjoklaj a member of the

18     KLA or a volunteer or anything of the sort?

19        A.   I can tell you with full responsibility that he was not a KLA

20     member, never.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22        A.   Maybe a supporter, yes, but that I don't know.

23        Q.   Thank you.  You have this statement in front of you in hard copy,

24     so I won't call it up on the screen.  Could you please look at

25     paragraph 5 of that statement.  Could you please explain that:

Page 1252

 1             "When I arrived in Djakovica the situation was already

 2     degenerated."  It's the very beginning of paragraph 5.  "The VJ army

 3     units occupied the territory of Djakovica municipality.  VJ forces --"

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The counsel is kindly

 5     asked to slow down when reading.

 6             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   So I'm not going to explain all of that.  So my question to you

 8     is:  To "take" or "occupy" in military jargon means to wrest the

 9     territory away from the enemy, and since this is what it looks like, now

10     I would like you to ask explain to me who was it that the VJ took the

11     territory of the Gjakove municipality from?  Of course, we're talking

12     about your statement of the 8 and 9th of August, 2006, and that's P313.

13        A.   The formulation is not correct of this one word.  They took

14     positions in the entire territory of Gjakove municipality.  This is what

15     I tried to say.  They were dislocated in all the Gjakove municipality

16     territory.  The army was already there, so there's no logic to occupy

17     something that they already possess.

18        Q.   And what does it mean the situation had already deteriorated?

19        A.   In fact, the situation deteriorated.  Sporadic actions were

20     ongoing on the part of the KLA against the army and police members.

21     Moreover, the deployment of police and paramilitary forces there and

22     reservist forces who committed wrong-doings - I'm now speaking about the

23     time-period of December 1998 - this is what I meant by the situation

24     deteriorated.  It didn't look that it was going to get any better but

25     worse, in fact.

Page 1253

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Well, it's much clearer now.  Paragraph 6, Colonel

 2     Milos Djosan.  Who is that?  What's your relationship with him?  What was

 3     he doing at the time?

 4        A.   Milos Djosan was the commander of the brigade where I worked.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  That was your answer, but my question has, first of

 6     all, to do with the relationship that you had as a captain first class.

 7     That was your rank; right?  And in light of that rank that you held, how

 8     much contact did you have with Colonel Djosan at the time?

 9        A.   I would say everyday contact.

10        Q.   Direct contact or through his subordinates such as, for instance,

11     Mr. Stankovic, his deputy?

12        A.   Both direct and through his subordinates.

13        Q.   Who were you in contact with in that period?  Who was your

14     immediate superior?  That's what I'm talking about.  Djosan, Stankovic,

15     who else?

16        A.   With Novica Stankovic, too, who was the chief of the brigade

17     staff.  There was another first class captain from Leskovac.  I don't

18     remember his name.  He also worked in the same brigade.

19        Q.   Please tell me, according to your statement, you transported the

20     bodies of the soldiers to Pristina, Nis, and wherever it was that you

21     were taking them.  How had those guys got killed?  You said over 40, that

22     you yourself transported over 40 of them.  Soldiers, I'm talking about

23     soldiers.

24        A.   These soldiers were killed mainly in the border area, and on two

25     or three occasions - I'm not quite sure how many - during NATO bombing

Page 1254

 1     when they targeted the radars -- correction, radar, I know of a case when

 2     eight soldiers and a non-commissioned officer were killed as they entered

 3     a minefield.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell me, Mr. Milos Djosan, during

 5     the action that you're talking about, the action that you label a

 6     massacre, was Djosan your immediate superior at that time too?

 7        A.   I mentioned it earlier that at that time he was commander of the

 8     Brigade I was a part of.

 9        Q.   Talking about international conventions, and I can see that

10     you're quite familiar with them.  In light of the circumstances, as a

11     member of the Army of Yugoslavia and as a human being, did you ever

12     report terrible crimes, atrocities against civilians in Meje, Meje-Orize,

13     Korenica, and other locations where you claim they happened?  Did you

14     report that to Milos Djosan so that he could take appropriate measures

15     against the perpetrators and attempt to identify them?

16        A.   No, I did not report to him because together with me was the

17     person whose task it was to report to him, and I think that he must have

18     reported what happened to Djosan.  Other people, too, must have told him

19     what happened.

20        Q.   Mr. Peraj, you're an officer of the Army of Yugoslavia, an

21     Albanian.  Didn't you feel it was necessary for you to do this personally

22     in respect of your commander?

23        A.   I did not inform him directly.  Whether you believe me or not,

24     what can I do?  I had friendly contacts with Milos Djosan.  I met him.  I

25     had met him before, and Milos Djosan is a good person.  He was a good

Page 1255

 1     person.  He had a good heart, and he told me -- please, I would apologise

 2     here, but I will say this in Serbo-Croatian:  Peraj, what is happening is

 3     so sad, it cannot be sadder.

 4        Q.   I agree with you.

 5        A.   So what more can I report to him?

 6        Q.   I agree with you, precisely because of what you said, that you're

 7     in daily contact with him.  You see him every day.  That's what you

 8     stated a few moments ago in relation to my question, and that's why I'm

 9     asking you, was it not possible that you didn't indicate this to him?

10     And then my next question:  Do you know if this man initiated many

11     proceedings against persons who committed crimes in that territory for

12     rape, theft, arson?  Do you know that?  Were you aware of that since you

13     say that you were in daily contact with him, you were well informed?

14     That's why I'm asking you this.

15        A.   Yes, I'm aware of several things, and that's why I mentioned here

16     that he was not a bad person.  He was a good man generally.

17        Q.   Thank you.  You said that you did not take part in any fighting.

18     Is that correct?  You said that you didn't take part in a single action.

19        A.   From the day of my birth until this day -- I'm sorry.  From the

20     day I was born to this day, today, here, I never participated in any

21     military action or police action.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please explain to me part of your

23     statement, or perhaps I should say the last one.  You said several times

24     that in accordance with the law, all participants in any operations

25     during the war are resubordinated to the army.  You said that that is

Page 1256

 1     what the law says.

 2             What law did you mean, if you can tell me.  If not, could you at

 3     least try to give all of us a description as to what you meant?

 4        A.   As far as I remember, I think I corrected something here, but in

 5     the beginning I based myself on the principle that used to be in force.

 6        Q.   Let's me just remind you.  Later on, you spoke about this in

 7     detail, that some people were not interested in anything any longer and

 8     that they moved away from the military.  We'll get to that.  But I just

 9     wanted to know what you meant by this resubordination to the Army of

10     Yugoslavia in a war situation.  Could you just deal with that briefly?

11     Then we are going to move on to this other matter.

12        A.   I don't understand this term you're using, "resubordination,"

13     because in Albanian it doesn't make any sense as a term.  If you could

14     use the Serbo-Croatian term.

15        Q.   The gist of this question is as follows:  During the war, during

16     the days of the war, the police is resubordinated to the army of

17     Yugoslavia, the Territorial Defence, the civilian protection.  That's the

18     system of defence that you described, as well, that existed in the former

19     Yugoslavia.  I am just asking you to explain that.  What did that mean,

20     namely that everyone has to be subordinated or resubordinated to the army

21     when there is a war situation, and, indeed, there was a law to that

22     effect.

23        A.   My line of thinking was that if the operational staff, the

24     commander of which, "verhovni" in Serbo-Croatian, the Supreme Commander,

25     he's the head of the state, and if the staff reaches the conclusion that

Page 1257

 1     it is necessary for some units to join other forces in operations that

 2     would take place, they decided sometimes that certain police units would

 3     be subordinated to army units.  This is what I was thinking about.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic, did you have a particular

 5     reference in the statement?

 6             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] That is precisely what I wish to

 7     point out.  [In English] Right now.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 9             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Paragraph 10 of your statement, P313, paragraph 11, it says in

11     paragraph 11 there was a war that -- there was a law that said that

12     during the war other structures should be resubordinated to the Army of

13     Yugoslavia.  It says here that you are thinking along your own train of

14     thought, but you know this.  And then 11, paragraph 11:

15             "The MUP was subordinated to the main commanders of the Army of

16     Yugoslavia.  This was strictly on the basis of an agreement."

17             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] So these are the references in

18     relation to the question I've been putting.  I've asked the witness what

19     he thinks, what he knows.  If that's it, then that's it.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is where I made the correction

21     because MUP is a separate organisation.  There could be coordination of

22     actions and operations between the two organisations, but never said that

23     MUP was commanded by the Yugoslav Army, and I think I made that

24     correction.

25             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 1258

 1        Q.   Why did you do that only now?  Why is this the first time, in

 2     fact, that you're doing it?

 3        A.   I saw that it was a mistake because it's just one word and it

 4     changes the whole meaning.  It's not even a sentence, just one word that

 5     changes it.

 6        Q.   That's why I'm asking you, Mr. Peraj, because this is the first

 7     trial of a police general.  But, all right, I accept the amendment that

 8     you made only now.  It is 11 years later that your memory has been

 9     refreshed.

10             Further on, you speak of paramilitary units.  It is all within

11     the main topic that is called "Armed Groups Overview I."  And then you

12     say in paragraph 12 -- now I shall be moving on from one paragraph to

13     another because obviously you don't remember what it was that you had

14     stated.  You talk about the Territorial Defence that operates together

15     with the MUP, and then you talk about Arkan's Tigers, Seselj's White

16     Eagles, then Franko Simatovic, the Frenki's.  You believe that all of

17     them are paramilitary units; right?  I didn't hear your answer.  Frenki's

18     men, the Tigers, the White Eagles, are they all paramilitary units?

19     That's my question.

20        A.   All of them, yes.

21        Q.   Thank you.  My next question:  You say that these units were

22     subordinated to the MUP, right, these paramilitaries units?  Am I right

23     when I say that?

24        A.   MUP supported and coordinated their actions with them.  I saw

25     that with my own eyes, both in Meje, but especially in Meje, and in town.

Page 1259

 1             One other explanation:  Had MUP and the army not accepted them,

 2     these forces would have fought against them because they were criminals,

 3     in my opinion.

 4        Q.   Well, you agree with me, then, that these units in fact evaded

 5     both military and police control and that they acted on their own, these

 6     criminals.  Can you just answer?

 7        A.   I agree with what you said, that they also carried out

 8     independent operations, but nobody hindered them.  Nobody stopped them,

 9     and that is the point.

10        Q.   Thank you.  At any rate, in your view they are what is meant when

11     one says "paramilitary," but then you're talking about the police and the

12     military who did not stop them.  When you say "paramilitary," if we look

13     at the etymology of the word, there is the military, and we're talking

14     about the police.  So they can be paramilitary.  You believe that it can

15     mean para-police as well.  When somebody says paramilitary to me, I think

16     that they're referring to something that may be the military but not

17     necessarily.  I would like to hear your comments, if any, in respect of

18     this.

19        A.   I agree with you to some extent because in the army, especially

20     in the brigade where I was working, some -- such forces came under the

21     pretext that they had been sent by the defence ministry of Yugoslavia to

22     help us, and in fact they were members of Seselj's party, Arkan's party,

23     and Vuk Draskovic's party.  So there was this suspicion that they had

24     been in agreement to send paramilitary forces to help the army and the

25     police.  They did not stay long in the army, though, not even a couple of

Page 1260

 1     days, because they were not disciplined.  Discipline was their weakest

 2     point.  So in the regular and -- army and police forces, of course, there

 3     are rules, there is discipline, and I don't deny that, but there was

 4     discipline in the army.

 5        Q.   When you say reservists the Army of Yugoslavia, who are they?

 6     You're talking about them, aren't you?  Also, what was the fate of this

 7     service in the military since you say that Serbs, Montenegrins, Roma,

 8     were all there?

 9        A.   The reservists in the army are those members who have completed

10     military service and whose names was on the lists in the municipalities,

11     and in case of need, they are mobilised and joined certain units in times

12     of war.

13             Another distinction we -- I would like to make:  It was said in

14     Belgrade that these people went to rescue Kosova.  "Where are you,

15     brothers?  Why aren't you doing anything?"  So these were members of this

16     party, and they were sent as volunteers, and they were not on these

17     reservist lists.  These were other people.  And that is the distinction I

18     would like to make.  The reservists are people that can be mobilised,

19     while the paramilitaries were impossible to put under control and

20     disciplined, neither by the army nor by the police.

21        Q.   My question was very clear, and you've moved towards volunteers

22     again and paramilitary and police forces.  My question was a specific

23     one.  Reservists:  You said that among them there were Serbs, and

24     Montenegrins, Albanians, and Roma.  What happened with the reservists

25     during the NATO action -- or, rather, in the period between the 24th of

Page 1261

 1     March up until June 1999?  Did the reservists function or not?  Were

 2     there Albanians and Roma from Kosovo among them, Serbs, et cetera?  What

 3     happened to that particular branch of the military, that part of the

 4     military, that organisational structure of the army?

 5        A.   What period are you talking about?

 6        Q.   24th of March, 1999; the 12th of June, 1999.

 7        A.   A large majority of these reservists were deployed and became

 8     part of these paramilitary units, the Seselj, the Frenki's.  They were

 9     not happy with the discipline and the rules in the army, so they had free

10     hand to loot and kill.  They were outside the control there.

11        Q.   What about the reservists who were ethnic Albanians?  I mean

12     those joined the paramilitaries because they looked the looting.  What

13     about the reservists of Albanian ethnicity?  I don't believe you meant

14     them, as well, when you said what you said, that they joined Arkan and

15     whatever.

16        A.   There were very few Albanians.  You could count them by the

17     fingers on one hand because they did not report to the units they served

18     before.  They refused to join.  I mean the Albanians.  There were some

19     Roma, and that would be my answer.

20        Q.   You will agree with me that the Albanian population in Djakovica

21     in that area was a majority as for that military department, an absolute

22     majority?

23        A.   Considering the number of people living there, yes, it is true

24     that most of the population was of Albanian ethnicity.  However, I would

25     like to reiterate here.  They did not respond to the call for

Page 1262

 1     mobilisation because the situation was very exacerbated, and it was

 2     impossible for Albanians and Serbs and Montenegrins to be in the same

 3     unit.  It was impossible.

 4        Q.   I shall thank you for your answer, and I'm not going to ask you

 5     anything else.

 6             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, since the next set

 7     of my questions has to do with the organisation and chain of command and

 8     will take up quite a bit of time, I believe that this would be a most

 9     appropriate moment for the first break.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.  We will have the first break now, and

11     we will resume at 11.00.

12                           --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  While we're waiting for the witness,

15     Mr. Djordjevic, we're looking ahead to the next witness.  Do you think

16     there will be much time to spare for the next witness today?  We may

17     simply finish this witness and not move to another one, is the

18     possibility.

19             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  Your Honours, I think that till the end of our

20     working day, we will cross this witness.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  You'll finish this witness today?

22             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  So we could look to the idea that we won't start

24     another witness.  Very well.  That's helpful, Mr. Djordjevic, and I'm

25     sure Mr. Stamp will take notice of that.

Page 1263

 1             MR. STAMP:  Yes, I'm grateful.  That helps to organise and save

 2     the witness having to wait around all day.  Thank you very much, Your

 3     Honours.

 4             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  You're welcome.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djordjevic.

 6             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   As I've already indicated, we will now continue with the chain of

 8     command, rules of procedure in the army, military rules since you come

 9     from that organisational structure, and I think it would be useful for us

10     in terms of clarifying the case at this trial.

11             Mr. Peraj, in paragraph 6 of your statement you say that the

12     staff of the corps of the Army of Yugoslavia received orders from the

13     ministry of defence in Belgrade.  Are you familiar with the chain of

14     command?  First of all, let me ask you this:  Do you understand the term

15     "chain of command"?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Could you then tell us, the corps staff or

18     headquarters, who are they responsible to?  Who do they report to?  They

19     are located in Kosovo.  Who do they report to in organisational terms?

20        A.   The command of the Brigade that I was part of reported to the

21     command of the corps; then the command of the corps reports to the army

22     in Nish; and the army in Nish reports to the Supreme Staff in Belgrade.

23        Q.   You're referring to the 3rd Army in Nis.  We will agree about

24     that?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1264

 1        Q.   As regards the chain of command the way that you've explained it

 2     to us briefly, could you please tell us, how were reports sent from the

 3     field, so from the very scene where something happened?  Can you explain

 4     to us the reporting procedure about the events in the field?  Do you know

 5     that, beginning, for instance, with the brigade level.

 6        A.   The lowest level in the specific case, the second level, the

 7     command of the brigade where I worked, commanded by Djosan, the corps

 8     command, part of it was stationed in Gjakove.  The reporting can be done

 9     in writing because the two commands were close to each other, but also

10     they can report using telegrams.

11        Q.   Let me remind you.  In paragraph 28 of your statement -- when I'm

12     referring to the statement, I always refer to the statement of the 8th

13     and 9th of August.  It's been admitted into evidence in this case.  So if

14     I'm referring to any other statement, I will specify that, but when I say

15     just "statement," I'm talking about the statement that you have in front

16     of you in hard copy.  Let me remind you.  In paragraph 28 you say:

17             "Colonel Branko Kotur would forward the information to the

18     commander of the 3rd Army in Nis."

19             Who is Colonel Kotur then?

20        A.   Colonel Kotur was in the corps command, in the corps staff, and

21     received orders from the corps commander.  He represented the corps in

22     the absence of the commander or his deputy.  He had the post of the chief

23     of the operations staff.

24        Q.   Thank you.  And then you go on to say that he forwarded the

25     information to the commander of the VJ headquarters or staff in Nis, to

Page 1265

 1     General Colonel Dusan Samardzic.  How do you know that, and who is Dusan

 2     Samardzic?

 3        A.   Since Milan Kotur exercised the post, he had --

 4        Q.   Milan Kotur or Branko Kotur?

 5        A.   I apologise.  It's Milan Kotur.

 6        Q.   I apologise.  That means that in paragraph 28 --

 7        A.   Excuse me, Branko Kotur.

 8        Q.   Then it's okay.  Please do continue.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The speakers are kindly

10     asked not to overlap.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His duty was to inform the corps

12     commander either directly or indirectly of what was happening.

13             As for Dusan Samardzic, he was the commander of the 3rd Army in

14     Nish.

15             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   The information that Colonel Kotur forwarded to Samardzic, was it

17     then forwarded to the ministry of defence in Belgrade?  Do you know that,

18     or do you not know that?

19        A.   That was the task of the army command to forward the information.

20        Q.   Thank you.  My next question for you, Mr. Peraj, is this:  What

21     kind of training did you do when you were transferred to Djakovica?

22        A.   As I mentioned earlier, initially I was the second reporting

23     officer for training and exercise issues.  My specific duty was to

24     prepare the soldiers for providing physical guard duty of the barracks

25     and of other features or places where the command of the brigade and its

Page 1266

 1     representatives were stationed.  I exercised this duty until the very

 2     end.  I had an assistant who was responsible for the guards in my

 3     absence, for example, when I was tasked with other duties.

 4        Q.   My next -- my next question for you, Mr. Peraj:  The volunteers

 5     from Serbia, or paramilitaries, whatever you call them, could they just

 6     come from Serbia in a completely unorganised way; in other words, they

 7     didn't have to report to anyone in their field upon their arrival, or did

 8     they report to somebody and place themselves under somebody's command?

 9     How did the chain of command function there when it came to the

10     volunteers coming in from Serbia?

11        A.   First of all, and I do not rule out this possibility, they could

12     come in unorganised manner but also in an organised manner.  Buses from

13     Nish Expres came; busloads of volunteers came to the cultural centre in

14     Gjakove.  Those who came in an organised manner, they had a

15     representative and the necessary documentation proving that they were

16     handed over to the command of the garrison in Gjakove.  However, some

17     from the bus would just get off, pick up their suitcases, and walk in the

18     town on their own.  Those who came in an organised manner, their personal

19     details were taken down, and they were dislocated to the different units,

20     subordinated to different units.

21        Q.   Let us go back to what you said about the presence of the

22     paramilitaries from various political parties, and I would like to spend

23     some time with them now.  I would like you to explain to us how is it

24     that you know that, when and where you saw them, those people who belong

25     to Arkan's Tigers, as you say.  If you saw them, when did you see them;

Page 1267

 1     where were they billeted; who did they report to; who was in charge of

 2     them when they reported or when they arrived in Kosovo; and what is the

 3     name of the person in charge who received them in the Army of Yugoslavia

 4     once they arrived in Djakovica?

 5        A.   These units, especially the Arkan's unit, were mixed up and fully

 6     cooperated with each other, to my knowledge.  They were mainly based in

 7     the Pashtrik hotel, and I've seen them there with my own eyes.  I was

 8     even present there for an intervention.  The other units, the Seselj

 9     units and Frenki units were stationed in some buildings near the stadium.

10        Q.   I'm sorry.  I want to continue asking questions about Arkan's

11     Tigers, so we will then move on to Seselj's men, if we can agree on that.

12             You say that they were billeted in the Pastrik hotel.  You're

13     talking about Arkan's Tigers, but my first question was -- I understand

14     what you're saying.  They couldn't come to Kosovo without reporting to a

15     certain military staff or organisational unit in order to let them know

16     that they were there.  Is this what they did?  Did they have to report to

17     the army when they arrived so that everybody knew who they were and that

18     they were there?

19        A.   I agree to some extent with what you're saying, that they had to

20     report to someone, and probably they did, but I have my doubts in terms

21     of a previous agreement.  There must have been a previous agreement for

22     their arrival there.

23             These units did not live well together with the army.  They were

24     not cooperative at all with the army.  To what I've seen, and I have a

25     lot of information about this, they were always seen in the company of

Page 1268

 1     the police.

 2        Q.   Mr. Peraj --

 3        A.   So I think they had an agreement with someone.  As I mentioned

 4     earlier, if they didn't have such an agreement with someone, these forces

 5     would have been fought by both the army and the police.  Both the army

 6     and the police would have tried to stop them.  It was a total anarchy.

 7        Q.   I agree with you in this regard.  Members of Arkan's paramilitary

 8     formation, the Tigers, you say that they were there.  How did they get

 9     supplies with -- of materiel and equipment in the field?  How were they

10     supplied with food?

11        A.   To what I know, they were not supplied with these items directly

12     from the army.  They had their own weaponry and equipment.  They had

13     different kinds of light weapons.  I am sure that they were not provided

14     with foodstuffs by the army.

15             I myself have distributed food to some units.  These units were

16     self-organised.  The kitchen was there, and they would get themselves

17     food.  Even the hotel worked under their orders, served them.  They were

18     the ones who were in charge, who issued the orders.

19        Q.   You say that you intervened on one occasion in the Pastrik hotel.

20     What was the name of their commander?  If you intervened there, you had

21     to have remembered that because you probably had to talk to him if it was

22     an intervention.  And could you please explain to us, what kind of an

23     intervention are we talking about here?

24        A.   I went for an intervention following an order from Colonel Djosan

25     because some soldiers had used alcohol.  Alcohol was greatly used in

Page 1269

 1     Pashtrik hotel.  It's only a street that separates the Pashtrik hotel and

 2     the cultural centre.  There were gun-shots fired because they were drunk,

 3     so my commander said to me, Go and check what's going on, since it was

 4     confirmed that there was no attack in question.  He said to me, Go and

 5     fetch these soldiers, and you can tell them on my behalf that the hotel

 6     will no longer serve alcohol drinks.  And he advised me not to try and

 7     enter into an argument with them.  All of them were members of the Arkan

 8     army.

 9             They were drunk.  They knew me by face because I moved around

10     there almost on a daily basis.  They offered me a beer.  I told them that

11     I could not have a beer because I was on duty, but then one of them said

12     to me, Well, I will throw the beer away then.  So in B/C/S I said, I'll

13     just take a sip, then.

14             So I asked them who their boss was, and their reply was, We are

15     all bosses here.  You are a good man, so it would be better for you to

16     leave; otherwise, something might happen to you.

17             So I went back.  I reported to the commander, and after ten

18     minutes or so Novica Stankovic with six or seven soldiers went there, and

19     his presence was followed by gun-shots fired in the air.

20        Q.   How do you know that those were Arkan's Tigers?  How can you be

21     certain of that when you say that they did not report to you, that they

22     ignored you?

23        A.   Sir, they told me in person on several occasions that -- to whom

24     they belonged.  That was no secret.  They were proud of being Arkan's

25     Tigers.  They did not hide this fact from anyone.  You may believe me or

Page 1270

 1     not, but this was the truth.

 2        Q.   Finally, could you just tell me very briefly what kind of light

 3     weapons, small arms they had, what kind of uniforms they had, and could

 4     you explain to me what you said in your statement when you're talking

 5     about Arkan's Tigers; you say that there was a rumour that they were

 6     extremely disciplined, but then you mentioned case involving the son of a

 7     friend of yours who killed himself because he was a drug addict.  But did

 8     you have any knowledge then that it was an extremely disciplined military

 9     organisation - I'm talking about the Arkan's Tigers - and could you

10     please tell us what kind of clothes they wore and what kind of weapons

11     they had.

12        A.   I apologise, Your Honours.  Could you please again instruct the

13     counsel to ask short and clearly defined questions.  Again, these are

14     two, three, four questions in one.  I will answer his questions one by

15     one.

16        Q.   How -- or, rather, what kind of small arms did they have?

17        A.   They had automatic rifles, 7.62 millimetres, 9 millimetres;

18     revolvers; and I don't know of anyone not carrying knives, but not knives

19     that are included in the military equipment.  Those were knives that were

20     called daggers, the kind that hunters used .  They were wearing chains,

21     60, 70 centimetres long.  I didn't see any rocket-launchers or heavy

22     machine-guns.  They had light weapons.  They also had hand-grenades.

23        Q.   Was there some other noticeable detail on all of this in addition

24     to what you've said?

25        A.   Most of them had the emblem of Arkan's party, the one they used

Page 1271

 1     to carry in the war in Bosnia as well.  They had their uniforms, which

 2     were mainly camouflage.  However, some of them would wear mixed civilian

 3     and military clothing, civilian trousers and military jackets.  They also

 4     wore handkerchiefs on their heads.  Yes, them, too, the Tigers, black

 5     scarves on their heads.

 6             I will tell you something else, that they coordinated their

 7     actions between each other, and they would stay together because the only

 8     place where alcohol was served was Hotel Pashtrik.  There were other

 9     coffee-shops, as well, but you said never mind them.  So that's who they

10     were, people from Frenki's unit and Seselj's unit.

11        Q.   From Frenki's and Seselj's unit.  What are we discussing now, the

12     Tigers or Frenki's men and Seselj's men?  Now I don't understand.

13        A.   We spoke about Arkan's Tigers in Pashtrik, but these two also

14     went there, and they stayed together there, and that's why I mentioned

15     it, not for any other reason.

16        Q.   Who was this that was engaged in this mutual coordination,

17     Arkan's Tigers or someone beyond that?  What are you exactly referring

18     to?

19        A.   Arkan's Tigers, Seselj's White Eagles, Frenki's units.  All of

20     them coordinated amongst themselves.  They never argued with each other.

21     They were very well coordinated.  I never heard of any problem in their

22     midst.  However, who did the coordination, I don't know.  It must have

23     been somebody high up.  I don't want to give you my ideas here.

24        Q.   You don't know.  But of course.  My question at the outset had to

25     do with alcohol and discipline.  You mentioned that you had heard that

Page 1272

 1     this was the case among Arkan's Tigers, rather, that they did not drink

 2     alcohol at all and that they had maximum discipline among their army

 3     ranks.  Was that your impression?

 4        A.   No, that's not correct.  In terms of discipline, they were a

 5     little more disciplined.  Arkan's people were more disciplined.  However,

 6     they would drink until they were totally drunk, and I know this for a

 7     fact, and I saw them with my own eyes together in Pashtrik.

 8        Q.   Finally, look at paragraph 42 of your statement.  Of course, it

 9     is P313 for the umpteenth time today.  Paragraph 42.  How do you explain

10     the beginning of this sentence?  You say that:

11             "I had no contact with the White Eagles or Tigers other than

12     bumping into the Tigers once at the Pashtrik Hotel in Djakovica."

13             So you did not see them.  You had no contact with them.  You

14     bumped into one of the Tigers.  Now, I really wonder how the interpreters

15     are going to interpret that.  Quite an expression, isn't it?  Bumping,

16     yes, bumping into the Tigers.  Right.  That's right.

17        A.   Well, sir, I did not have direct contact with them.  I just saw

18     them in the street, but I did not speak to them.  I mentioned what

19     happened in Pashtrik.  Apart from that, there's nothing else.  I saw them

20     in the street.

21        Q.   That's a good answer.  Fine.  Tell me, camouflage uniforms, what

22     colour were they?  I mean the Tigers' uniforms.

23        A.   It was very similar to the army uniform with very slight

24     differences.  The colours were a little lighter.  It was a camouflage

25     uniform but lighter colours.

Page 1273

 1        Q.   Did they wear any kind of caps or helmets or anything of the kind

 2     or nothing whatsoever?

 3        A.   Most of them were not wearing anything on their heads.

 4        Q.   Did they have any radio equipment?  Every member of the Tigers,

 5     was that on their chests?

 6        A.   The ones I ran into, I did not see them having any radio

 7     equipment.  I did see some in Prishtina, but they were commanders in

 8     1997, 1998, and I remember seeing them with such equipment, very

 9     sophisticated ones.

10        Q.   Do you know what was the name of Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan's,

11     party?

12        A.   I can't recall it now.  I used to know the name.

13        Q.   Do you know what the emblem of the Tigers looked like?  They wore

14     it, and I'm not going to say how and where they wore it, but what did

15     this emblem look like, the one that the Tigers wore?

16        A.   I can't remember for the moment.  It's been a long time.  Some of

17     them I know, but I'm not sure, so I don't want to assume here, make

18     assumptions.  However, the most important thing is that they admitted

19     themselves to be part of that force.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, do you know in what actions they took part,

21     and if so, where?  The specific area, please.  I'm referring to Arkan's

22     Tigers.

23        A.   They took part in Meje, in Meje, together with other forces as

24     well.

25        Q.   Within your brigade, did you have an intelligence officer?

Page 1274

 1        A.   Intelligence officer?  No, I don't think so.  A security officer,

 2     yes, but he could have covered both fields.

 3        Q.   Did the security officer know about the presence of Arkan's

 4     Tigers out in the field; and if so, what was his name?

 5        A.   Seregj Perovic was the security officer.  And to be honest, you

 6     didn't ask the question, but I will say this:  I think that he knew about

 7     everything, and he told me who belonged to which and from whom should I

 8     be careful and protect myself.

 9        Q.   We are going to move on to Seselj's White Eagles.  When did they

10     arrive?

11        A.   As far as I remember, they arrived by the end of 1998.

12        Q.   Where?

13        A.   In Gjakove.  Maybe they arrived earlier in another part of the

14     country, but in Gjakove they arrived in 1998.  It was before New Year's

15     Eve.

16        Q.   Tell me, how did they get there?  What did they use for

17     transportation?

18        A.   I don't know how they got there and what means of transportation

19     they used.  I did not see them.

20        Q.   How do you know, then?  How do you know that they arrived?

21        A.   Well, they could be seen in Gjakove, in the streets, that they

22     had arrived.  They did not just drop from the sky.  Of course, they came

23     from somewhere.  Whether it was an organised way of arriving or not, I

24     don't know.  I know what vehicles they used when they moved around in

25     Gjakove, yes, but how they arrived, I don't know.

Page 1275

 1        Q.   Thank you for this answer.  Tell me, did they report to your

 2     army, to your command, that they had arrived?  Did they place themselves

 3     under your command or someone else's command, if you know, and you were

 4     in Djakovica at that point in time.

 5        A.   As far as I know, no, because if they had reported to the

 6     command, we would have a list, a register of some sort, and we would have

 7     to support them with food supplies, weapons, vehicles.  Please believe me

 8     that they had better vehicles.  The members of these units, they had

 9     better vehicles than the commander of the brigade, much more

10     sophisticated vehicles that they had looted from people, they had taken

11     away from people.  I don't know where from.

12        Q.   So you did work on establishing the provenance of these vehicles?

13        A.   These vehicles were not army or police vehicles.  They were

14     vehicles that had been looted from the people, very good jeeps and

15     Mercedes cars, and they didn't care what they did to those people.  If

16     those people so much as tried to resist, they would be killed on the

17     spot.  Of course, the army and the police did mobilise some vehicles,

18     civilian vehicles, but, however, they would give a certificate that this

19     was taken for a temporary period for the needs of the army or the police.

20     However, unfortunately, they were never returned, but we won't enter into

21     this.

22        Q.   Actually, we've moved in the completely wrong direction.  This

23     question is of really no relevance to this case.  I do apologise to the

24     Honourable Trial Chamber and to my colleague Mr. Stamp.  However, I got

25     carried away by what you were saying, although that is impermissible, so

Page 1276

 1     I do apologise to all concerned.

 2             We will agree that the Serbs organise themselves in different

 3     parties, and they arrived in Kosovo without the knowledge of the military

 4     and without any kind of organisation.  Everybody was waging his own

 5     little war in Kosovo and perhaps elsewhere too.  No one reported to

 6     anyone.  No one didn't -- know officially that they were there.  No one

 7     provided them with food, materiel, technical resources.  Every army

 8     brought in their own resources, their own vehicles, their own food and so

 9     on and so forth.  Will you agree with me?

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic, I'm afraid this is another speech.

11     I think I'll just have to interrupt you each time you launch into one

12     from now on, or we'll find we can't finish.  You had the evidence from

13     the witness, so I don't think you need to try to summarise it.

14             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Will the witness agree with me

15     that political parties in Serbia had their own armies, and they went into

16     Kosovo and they acted independently without any kind of liaison with

17     others?  At least that is what I infer on the basis of what the witness

18     has been telling us.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Are you able to assist with that, Mr. Peraj?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Honourable gentlemen, I -- I'm not

21     saying that they were armies.  They were mobilised forces by political

22     parties, and my personal opinion is that the chairmen of these parties

23     coordinated with somebody high up on these issues because otherwise --

24     because had it been otherwise, the army would have acted against these

25     forces and would not have allowed these forces to arrive there.

Page 1277

 1             On the basis of these facts, I think that there was a preliminary

 2     agreement between them to send forces.  They called them voluntary

 3     forces, volunteers.  However, the situation on the ground was completely

 4     different.  Even if they had previous understanding between each other,

 5     they did not act upon such understanding or agreement.

 6             This would be my answer.

 7             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   My question is:  As for the volunteers -- I mean, I'm not going

 9     to call them Arkan's men or Seselj's men or Russians or whatever.  I'm

10     just going to call them volunteers.

11             Did you, as the army, receive them in Djakovica?  You explained

12     something to us, that you were writing down the names and surnames of

13     these people, et cetera.  Did they go through any kind of training?

14     Could you please respond to that?  That has to do with what you stated

15     today, namely, that you kept some kind of records of volunteers who were

16     coming in, as far as I can remember.

17        A.   In a situation of war, there is no training because there is no

18     time for training.  These volunteers had been previously trained in

19     Bosnia, Croatia, and wherever they came from, most of them.  There were

20     cases when they came and they registered, and the next day they were sent

21     to the front.

22        Q.   Well, that is why they came; right?  But did you register all of

23     them?  Was it possible for anyone to enter the area of responsibility of

24     your brigade without you knowing about that?  Was that feasible at all?

25        A.   Illegally, yes, not legally.  However, you reminded me of

Page 1278

 1     something here.  The same unit that came as volunteers, they said, and I

 2     heard them myself and I quote:  We have been told to stay in town, and if

 3     there is need, we will stay in town and we won't go to Koshare.  Djosan

 4     told them, Thank you for coming, but this is where we need you now.  And

 5     everybody left and went to town.

 6             The military police was engaged then to go and catch them

 7     wherever they were.  They didn't want to come for the proper patriotic

 8     reasons.  They had come for other things.

 9        Q.   This is a matter that I don't wish to discuss.  Quite simply, I

10     got the answer that I was interested in, so tell me:  How did you make a

11     distinction between the members of Seselj's party, the volunteers of

12     Seselj's party and others?  What kind of weapons did they have?  What

13     kind of side-arms?

14        A.   Of Seselj's people, almost none of them carried automatic rifles.

15     Knives dominated, and pistols.  They changed their uniforms almost daily.

16     Where they got them, I don't know.  Military uniforms, police uniforms,

17     combined uniforms, headscarves, different kinds of emblems.  They were

18     tattooed on their bodies everywhere, and they showed everything very

19     openly, and they were singing songs.  And I apologise again to the

20     interpreters because I will confuse them.  [Witness sings].  It's a song

21     about Seselj, and I suspect that they were drug users, heavy drug users.

22     I heard from my colleagues that they used a lot of drugs.

23        Q.   So your colleagues mingled with them.  Could you please give us

24     some names of those colleagues of yours who told you that about Seselj's

25     men, first names, last names?

Page 1279

 1        A.   Mostly the security officer.  In our everyday conversations, he

 2     told me about their behaviour, yes, and he told me to be careful and not

 3     to use my jeep because they would cake it away from me.

 4        Q.   You're talking about Officer Perovic; right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   My last question about Seselj's guard, the White Eagles, is:  Do

 7     you know who their commander was, and what actions did they take part in,

 8     if any?

 9        A.   I don't know the name of the commander of the Seselj's unit.

10     However, I'm 100 percent sure that they took part in the -- in Meje and

11     in Korenice, but also in town, in looting houses and setting them alight.

12        Q.   Could you please tell me, who is Franko Simatovic?  Do you know

13     that?

14        A.   I never met him.  I know that he was the commander of the

15     so-called Frenki's, named after him.  I know that he was in charge of

16     this unit when it was formed initially, before it arrived in Kosova.

17     Frenki Sumatovic, Simatovic, something like that.

18        Q.   Simatovic.

19        A.   A lot has been said about him on television, newspapers, media in

20     general, but personally I don't know him.

21        Q.   What kind of a unit was that, Frenki's men?  Who were they?  Do

22     you know that?

23        A.   From what I know, he was the commander of this unit, which was a

24     special unit, Special Anti-Terrorist Unit.  This is what I know.

25        Q.   And let me ask you this:  Let's say from the 1st of January,

Page 1280

 1     1999, until June, the 12th of June, 1999, was there a Special

 2     Anti-Terrorist Unit under the command of Frenki Simatovic, Franko

 3     Simatovic, or was there perhaps something else?  Had it already been

 4     disbanded by that time?

 5        A.   I apologise, Your Honour, but it would take me quite some time to

 6     elaborate and explain this.  If you give me permission to give an

 7     elaborated answer, then I will.

 8        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... in existence at that time or

 9     not?  That's my question.  Yes or no?

10        A.   In Gjakove specifically, there were Frenki's forces, and I will

11     explain to you how they were organised in Gjakove.  Not all the unit of

12     Frenki was in Gjakove.  There were certain persons tasked with mobilising

13     other persons into their own units.

14        Q.   Do you remember, if you say that Frenki's men were in Djakovica,

15     and that's what you're saying, who was their commander?  Who was his

16     name?

17        A.   I do not know their commander.  I was told by my colleagues, and

18     they mentioned this very often, a certain colonel by the name of

19     Kovacevic who was assigned with the task of coordinating these forces.

20     This is what I heard.  Personally, I cannot ascertain or deny this

21     information.  However, their presence in Gjakove was open.

22        Q.   My next question:  Where were Frenki's forces, members of that

23     special unit, billeted?

24        A.   Behind the Vllaznimi stadium in a building.  They removed the

25     civilian population from that building and moved themselves in.

Page 1281

 1        Q.   Could you please tell me, where were Seselj's White Eagles

 2     billeted?

 3        A.   In a building which is opposite to the Hajdar Dushi gymnasium.

 4     There were several military apartments in these buildings in the past.

 5     That's where they were mostly seen, but they did change their location

 6     often.  That was like a point of a -- a meeting point for them, close the

 7     to the army centre.

 8        Q.   Could you please tell me, do you have any knowledge of Frenki's

 9     men participating in any actions?

10        A.   I did not hear of an operation that -- in which they participated

11     on their own.

12        Q.   Now I would like us to look at D001-5784, it's the English

13     version; and D001-5782, that's in Albanian.  This is the statement of the

14     17th of June, 1999, that the witness gave, signed, and wrote in his own

15     hand.  And in the English version, we in fact have a translation of that

16     handwritten statement.

17             Could you please look at this statement in English, Mr. Peraj.

18             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the usher to

19     look at the signature in the Albanian version.  I want to ask Mr. Peraj

20     if it is indeed his signature, so could that part of the statement please

21     be shown on the screen.  It's at the end.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The statement in handwriting, first

23     of all, that is not my handwriting.  I think that the signature has been

24     falsified, forged perfectly, perfidiously.  I do have notes, not here

25     with me here today, and you can see from my notes that this is not my

Page 1282

 1     handwriting.

 2             Just a small detail as proof.  It says here, "Deklaroi."  I would

 3     never write it like that.  I would write it with a J in the end.  So

 4     that's why I'm saying that my signature has been forged perfidiously.

 5     It's not my handwriting.

 6        Q.   Do you know who handed this document over to the OTP of the

 7     Tribunal, this forgery?  So you're claiming this is a forgery?

 8        A.   Completely.  That's not my handwriting.  We should be clear on

 9     this, and the person who sent this must know who did the forging.  It's a

10     complete forgery.  I have my suspicions about who could have done this,

11     but I'm not going to say that.

12        Q.   Well, this is not of interest to us, perhaps some other

13     proceedings, but let me ask you this:  Mr. Peraj, you testified in the

14     Milutinovic et al case.  You gave a number of statements.  Were you ever

15     shown this statement by the Prosecution since my learned friend Mr. Stamp

16     referred to all the statements, to the sublimation of all the statements,

17     and the sublimation is contained in P313, so did you ever state that this

18     statement of the 17th of June, 1999, apparently written in some kind of

19     block capitals, is a total forgery as you stated here today?

20             MR. STAMP:  May I just state -- may I just intervene --

21             JUDGE PARKER:  We will let the witness answer first, Mr. Stamp.

22             MR. STAMP:  Very well.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With regard to the statement on the

25     right-hand side, I'm telling you that this is not my handwriting, and it

Page 1283

 1     is a forgery, pure forgery.  And my signature, too, has been forged

 2     perfidiously, copied.  The statements that I gave to the investigators --

 3             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Have you ever, ever signed a handwritten statement --

 5             MR. STAMP:  May I --

 6             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] The witness -- or, rather, Your

 7     Honour, I insist on getting an answer to that.  Before giving the floor

 8     to the Prosecution, could I please have the answer?

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Answer to what, Mr. Djordjevic?

10             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   I'm asking you, have you ever before today say anywhere that this

12     statement -- or, rather, that this signature is not yours and that this

13     is all a total forgery?  So did you ever say that ever before today?

14        A.   This is the first time I see a statement in handwriting.  I don't

15     know where you got it from.  Maybe you should tell us who provided you

16     with this forgery.  This is not my statement, and you can prove this.  I

17     can bring you notebooks with my handwriting, and you can have an expert

18     in handwriting do the analysis, and you will see that this is not my

19     handwriting.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  All right.  Now, Mr. Stamp, you've been waiting a

21     moment to intervene.

22             MR. STAMP:  I think the witness was about to say what I wanted to

23     say at line 47 -- at page 47, line 15, when he said, "The statements I

24     gave to the investigators ..."  I think he was about to say what I will

25     say now.

Page 1284

 1             Counsel for the Defence has said that I represented at some point

 2     in time that in the statement we have in evidence as the witness's

 3     statement is a sublimation of all witness's statements.  That is not

 4     correct, and I wish to just correct that for the record, and that is at

 5     yesterday at page 1182, lines 18 to 23.  The statements which we referred

 6     to, which the Prosecution refers to and has used and tendered in this

 7     case are statements which were taken by officers of the OTP of this

 8     Tribunal and not all possible statements which the witness might have

 9     made.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, thank you for correcting that.  I must say I

11     didn't understand that from what you said yesterday, and I'm sure that

12     will help Mr. Djordjevic.  The statement Exhibit P313, Mr. Stamp says is,

13     as it were, a putting together of statements made by the witness to the

14     Office of the Prosecutor, not of other statements.

15             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] This is also a document that we

16     received practically from our colleagues from the Prosecution, and I am

17     really happy I hear the witness say this, and this is why I'm going ask

18     for this document to be admitted into evidence in its entirety, the

19     document that the witness claims is a complete forgery.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  At the moment, he says it isn't his statement.  We

21     can mark it for identification and keep it in the court record, but it

22     won't be an exhibit until somebody can identify what it is.  It will be

23     marked for identification, Mr. Djordjevic.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be D00031 MFI, Your Honours.

25             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

Page 1285

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Now, Mr. Peraj, you've been patiently waiting to

 2     say something.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just shortly, Your Honour, if you

 4     allow me.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Please.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see anything which is in

 7     conflict with what I've said in my previous statements.  However, this is

 8     not my handwriting.  I just wanted to tell you that I didn't see any

 9     threat from this statement.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, I don't think we need to bother further with

11     that, Mr. Peraj.  Thank you for that.

12             Yes, Mr. Djordjevic.

13             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14        Q.   As regards the Territorial Defence, just one short question.  You

15     said in the statement of yours, that's paragraph 36, that the Territorial

16     Defence involved people from the ages of 15 to 65.  Did you really mean

17     that, from 15 to 65 for the Territorial Defence?  Is it true that you

18     said that simply --

19        A.   Eighteen to 65.

20        Q.   Well, that's more sensible.  So we have that corrected now.

21             Could you explain to us the difference between the Territorial

22     Defence and the civilian protection?  That's paragraph 37.  You are

23     talking about both.

24        A.   Civil protection is under the umbrella of Territorial Defence,

25     and they have their own specific tasks.

Page 1286

 1        Q.   You say that the operational commander of the Territorial Defence

 2     for the Gjakove municipality was in fact Nikola Micunovic, aka -- well,

 3     the nickname has nothing to do with his real name, but could you please

 4     tell us, what does it mean, "operational commander"?  How are we to

 5     understand that?

 6        A.   Can you give me the number of the paragraph, please?

 7        Q.   Thirty-seven, Mr. Peraj, line 3.  We can see that he was in fact

 8     in peacetime just -- he played just an administrative role, but what was

 9     he doing during the war?  What is it, the operational commander of

10     Territorial Defence, and who did he report to?  You say that here.  You

11     say that he reported to Mayor Stanojevic.  So who is Micunovic, and who

12     is Stanojevic?  But first of all, my first question to you is:

13     "Operational commander of the Territorial Defence," what does that mean?

14        A.   Commander of the Territorial Defence in Gjakove, for Gjakove

15     municipality, that is, was Momcilo Stanojevic, while Nikola Micunovic was

16     the commander of the mobilised forces of the Territorial Defence, which

17     was under the command of the mayor of the municipality, which in war-time

18     assumes the role of the commander of these Territorial Defence forces.

19        Q.   So let's clear this up.  Stanojevic or Micunovic?

20        A.   Micunovic was the person who reported to Stanojevic.  However,

21     the operational part of the work, of the job, he was responsible for the

22     operational part of the work.  This is the meaning of the operational

23     commander that I mentioned.

24        Q.   The fact that they reported -- that Micunovic reported to Djosan,

25     does that mean that the Territorial Defence had placed itself under the

Page 1287

 1     command of the Yugoslav Army?  Is that how I should understand it?

 2        A.   In fact, in a municipality where there is a military district or

 3     military formation, rather, like a brigade, which is not a small

 4     formation, the other forces that are involved in military activities fall

 5     under the command of the garrison commander, with the exception of cases

 6     when it is has been ordered previously to do otherwise, because it is

 7     possible for an officer or a higher-ranking officer to come and be

 8     assigned there in that district and take over the command.

 9        Q.   And please tell me, the reservists and the Territorial Defence,

10     during the war did they operate together, or were they also operating

11     separately without any particular coordination?

12        A.   We should understand each other here.  Reservists were mobilised

13     by both Territorial Defence and the army.  Therefore, the Territorial

14     Defence, the army, and the police had to have full coordination between

15     themselves.  However, the army is more responsible vis-a-vis the

16     Territorial Defence units.  Whatever the case, they have to closely

17     cooperate in the territory, that is in municipality, in the municipality

18     in this case.

19        Q.   Well, that's the essence of my question.  In practice, did they

20     operate like a single organisation, the territorials, the Territorial

21     Defense, the reservists of the army?  That's my question.

22        A.   It resembled a single organisation, but in reality it was

23     different.  Nikola Micunovic was involved in a verbal argument with

24     Djosan about this issue.  So I cannot speak of good relations here

25     because something was not functioning in that respect.

Page 1288

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Let's wrap up because I can see that we have to have

 2     our break.

 3             Could you please tell us:  Mr. Micunovic, he was a retired

 4     military man or something else, and then he was reactivated?  What was

 5     it?

 6        A.   I don't know that he had been retired.  Well, even if that was

 7     the case, quite normally he would have been mobilised.  He worked in the

 8     sector which, in B/C/S, is Vojni Odsek, a military district in Gjakove.

 9        Q.   Did he have any rank?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   What rank?

12        A.   As far as I know, he was a first class captain at least, but I

13     think he was promoted to major at the time.  I don't remember, as I said,

14     what was his initial rank before he was promoted.

15             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I suggest that we

16     take our break now.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.  Thank you, Mr. Djordjevic.  And we

18     resume at 1.00, and you will bear in mind the need to leave some time to

19     Mr. Stamp for re-examination.  Thank you.

20                           --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

22             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I please

23     address you?

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djordjevic.

25             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I will try to the best of my

Page 1289

 1     ability to cut my cross-examination short in order to allow this witness

 2     to complete his testimony before this court today, but in light of the

 3     importance of the circumstances that I wanted to ask him about, I would

 4     like to ask you - and this concerns, also, the interpreters who are

 5     present here - I have learnt that there is no trial scheduled for this

 6     afternoon, and I realise that we will need more time because Mr. Stamp

 7     has to have the right to re-examine the witness, but could release

 8     extend, perhaps, our sitting time today so that the witness's testimony

 9     could be completed today?

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic, we're not in a position that we

12     can simply adjust to take this afternoon's sitting because different

13     interpreters are arranged for this afternoon's sitting and because

14     commitments have been made by Judges in other matters.  What we can do to

15     try and help is to extend to the maximum edge of the present tapes, which

16     will give us perhaps another ten minutes, and that is all we can do.  So

17     you'll just have to move as quickly and as to the point as you can.

18     Thank you.

19             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I will

20     then continue with my cross-examination of this witness.

21        Q.   Mr. Peraj, could you please tell me, what do you know about the

22     relationship between the last name that you mentioned in your statement,

23     Adamovic, and the last name of Kovacevic?  What do you know about that?

24        A.   I know that Adamovic was a MUP commander.  I wanted to have an

25     appointment with him once for personal reasons, and I was told that he

Page 1290

 1     was ill and was in Belgrade at the time.  He was replaced by

 2     Colonel Kovacevic.  And I will say this again - this is what I heard -

 3     Kovacevic was acting as -- in his place for some time.

 4        Q.   For a time, or did Kovacevic remain there until the end of the

 5     war?

 6        A.   He stayed there for quite some time, as far as I know, but I'm

 7     not sure about later on.

 8        Q.   Mr. Peraj, according to the information that the Defence has,

 9     Mr. Kovacevic was appointed after Adamovic, the chief of the Djakovica

10     SUP.  Can you agree with me?

11        A.   I'm not sure.  I don't know, but it could be as you say.  I don't

12     deny -- I can't deny that he was.  Maybe he was given that post, but I

13     don't know.  However, I know that the colonel's name was mentioned

14     several times in our conversations and in our briefing sessions in the

15     command.

16        Q.   Well, it's strange that you don't know that since you spoke about

17     your briefings, the briefings between the army and the police in great

18     detail, so it's strange that you don't know that since you were in

19     Djakovica at the time.

20             My next question has to do with paragraph 22 of your statement.

21     I would like you to give you this reference so that we can cut this

22     short.  You say that in the area of Djakovica there were over 170 tanks,

23     and then in the same paragraph you say that you know that the man who

24     worked at the gas station said that in late April he fuelled 60 tanks

25     that day.

Page 1291

 1             Is it possible that there were so many tanks at the time when the

 2     NATO air-strikes were going on, and how do you know that there were so

 3     many tanks there at that time?  And nothing else, just that.

 4        A.   With regard to fueling, which is Serb is Tankiranje, there was a

 5     non-commissioned officer who told me about that.  I can't remember his

 6     name now.  It was his duty to supply petrol.  And he told me that there

 7     would be a lot to do in the future days, as well, to supply petrol to

 8     other tanks.  I'm very sure about that because when the convoy formed to

 9     withdraw, I can tell you that there could have been even more than I

10     already said now.

11             These tanks did not move from the places they were deployed,

12     especially after the NATO bombing started.  They did not move from their

13     positions for security reasons and also because they did not need to use

14     them.

15             The Prizren-Gjakove-Decane-Peje axis was the most important one

16     because of an eventual attack from the Republic of Albania.  So from

17     earlier on, tanks were positioned along this line that I mentioned.

18        Q.   Let's clear this up.  This number of tanks, we're talking about

19     Djakovica or the whole of Kosovo?

20        A.   Not the whole of Kosova, just Gjakove, Decane, and the other part

21     towards Prizren.

22        Q.   Based on what information did the Yugoslav Army expect attacks

23     from the Republic of Albania, and who was supposed to attack?

24        A.   It was being said that if the bombing would not be successful,

25     then ground forces, NATO ground forces, would come and would enter

Page 1292

 1     through that territory.  That was what was said, but it never came true.

 2     That's why the preparations were made before such a thing could happen.

 3     There were many things said about these things on television, in the

 4     media.

 5        Q.   A brief question for you, Mr. Peraj.  Were there any incursions

 6     from the Republic of Albania by various armed groups?  Who did those

 7     groups belong to, if you know, and when did this happen, if you know?

 8        A.   To my knowledge, there were groups that crossed the border,

 9     various groups of civilians but also members of the KLA.  They crossed

10     from Albania into the territory of Kosova.  As regards regular forces of

11     the Albanian army, no.

12        Q.   Thank you.  My next question, Mr. Peraj, is this:  After the Army

13     of Yugoslavia left, did you give any statements to the KLA police?  And

14     when I'm asking you this, before you give me your answer, could you

15     please look at paragraph 108 of your statement. [No interpretation]

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Could we please look at D001-5900, that's the

18     Albanian version; and D001-5907, that's the English version.  And before

19     we get this on the screen, could we please ask the witness to look very

20     carefully at this statement in the Albanian language and to tell us this:

21     After the usher has presented the statement to him in full, the first

22     page, second page, third page and so on, to say whether this is a

23     statement that he gave or not.  It's in B/C/S.  Fine.  The witness under

24     understands the language.

25             Could he just tell me whether --

Page 1293

 1             MR. STAMP:  I'm not sure --

 2             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I'm not sure whether this is

 3     indeed the statement.  Let me just check once again.  No, that's not the

 4     statement.  Just a moment, please.

 5             D001-5900.  Yes, that's the Albanian version.  And in the English

 6     version -- in the English language, 5907, D001-5907.  Yes, that's

 7     correct.  That's it.

 8             Could the witness please be shown this statement, all the pages

 9     in the Albanian language from page 1 to the last page.  If he could tell

10     us whether this is indeed his statement.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, I would like to say

12     that you can see that this handwriting is different from the previous

13     one.  Secondly, yes, I wrote this myself.

14             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you.

15             Could we then have on our screens D001-5925.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  [Previous translation continues] ...

17             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  I'm sorry, I'm in a rush and I forgot it.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be D00032, Your Honours.

20             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have D001-5925 in the

21     English language; and in the Albanian language, it's D001-5929.  It is

22     the transcript of a purported audio and video recording of a conversation

23     with Nike Peraj, who is present here.  So I would like to ask him if he

24     is aware of this transcript, if he knows anything about it.  [In English]

25     In English, as far as I can see, it is only summary.

Page 1294

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Would you please look at this transcript in

 2     Albanian.

 3        A.   This is not in Albanian.  However, it's not a problem.  I would

 4     like to have it zoomed in, please.

 5             Your Honours, may I answer?

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I gave a statement in the premises

 8     of this Tribunal to two prosecutors.  I can't remember the name -- their

 9     names.  There was a lady with them, and I also gave a statement to --

10     Paolo Stocchi I think was his name.  So I gave a statement, and it was

11     recorded.

12             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  I didn't receive translation.  Now it's okay.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Okay.  The witness said he gave two statements in

14     this Tribunal, the first two prosecutors, there was a lady with him, and

15     he also gave a statement to a Paolo Stocchi.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  This was in the presence

17     of Paolo Stocchi.  I gave statement to the Belgrade prosecutors here in

18     the Tribunal, in the presence of Paolo Stocchi.  I gave them a statement

19     about the things that I had also said before.

20             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Do you remember the time when you gave this statement?

22        A.   No, I don't remember the date.  About two years ago.  I think

23     that Milosevic died, or maybe Babic died in that period.  It was at that

24     time, but I can't give you the dates.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  March 2006.

Page 1295

 1             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  That's right.  [Interpretation] Your Honour, now

 2     I would like to tender this statement into evidence.  Now I don't want to

 3     be asking any more questions about it because we don't have enough time.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Carry on, please, Mr. Djordjevic.  It will be

 5     received.

 6             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, before we get to that.

 7             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  Okay.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp.

 9             MR. STAMP:  This document, there's no translation of it in the

10     language of the Tribunal -- in the language of the Tribunal.  I

11     understand that what we're seeing here is not a translation of the

12     document but someone's summary.  So it's --

13             JUDGE PARKER:  The document will be marked for identification

14     together with the summary.

15             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] But then in that case, Your

16     Honour, since we have a summary here, can we then submit a request for a

17     full translation of this document into English and then to have it

18     admitted into evidence in this case once the translation has been

19     received?

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.  You've anticipated very well.  That's what

21     can occur, but you will need to ask the Translation Unit to do that.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be D00033 MFI, Your Honours.

23             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I'm grateful to you,

24     Mr. President, Your Honour.

25        Q.   Now I would like to ask you this.  This is the first time,

Page 1296

 1     Mr. Peraj, that you mentioned the forward command post of the police.  If

 2     I'm not mistaken, it was a prayer house, and it is in Lokaci Dusna

 3     [phoen], the village of Lokaci Dusna.  Now, I would like you to tell us

 4     this:  You told us that you didn't speak to anyone but that you saw a

 5     police general there; is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Could you now tell me -- can you describe what this man looked

 8     like?

 9        A.   I hope you won't get offended by this.  He was about as heavily

10     built as you, a little bit taller.  He had grey hair, almost white, white

11     facial features, red blotches on his face.  This is how he looked.  He

12     was wearing a camouflage uniform with the brown colour dominating, the

13     same as the army, but it was very good design, and he kept his rank

14     markings.  Generally -- on the shoulders.  Generally, in times of war

15     they don't keep their ranks, they don't show them, but they felt safe

16     there, it seems.

17        Q.   Mr. Peraj, apart from concluding that the gentleman was

18     well-built and looked good, I would like to ask you this:  Did you

19     remember his name?

20        A.   No.  I never mentioned his name because the person I was with

21     addressed him as chief or boss, and they never used names.

22        Q.   Mr. Peraj, can you tell me why this is the first time you've said

23     this?  Until now, you've never mentioned the forward command post of

24     Dusna, of the police.  This is the first time you're doing this.  Why?

25     What is the reason you're doing this for the very first time now?

Page 1297

 1             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours.  Your Honours, that is not correct.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Stamp.

 3             MR. STAMP:  In his evidence before and in his statements, he has

 4     mentioned the forward command post.  As a matter of fact, in one of the

 5     maps that we tendered, which was a map that he said is based on a map

 6     that he has drawn and is a map from, I think, the year 2004, the forward

 7     command post of the police is marked on it.  I can't remember the exhibit

 8     number, but that is one of the maps that was tendered on Wednesday.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.  Does that help your recollection,

10     Mr. Djordjevic?

11             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] No.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  It is Friday afternoon.

13             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] [Overlapping speakers] No, I

14     wouldn't have done that if I remembered.  I know it's Friday afternoon,

15     Your Honour.  I would like to say that the witness never did mention,

16     first of all, this kind of agreement or discussion in the staff, and that

17     is the main reason why I'm asking him that and saying that it's the first

18     time.

19             Secondly, does the witness know that it was only the army that

20     had the so-called forward command post, whereas the police does not

21     really do that kind of thing in its activities and its operations.

22     Perhaps the witness called it that, but --

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, we can see if the witness can comment on

24     that, Mr. Djordjevic.

25             It's suggested, Mr. Peraj, that the -- only the army has forward

Page 1298

 1     command posts, not the police.  Is that something that affects your

 2     evidence?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand the question.  It is

 4     possible that -- it is possible because that brigade is not a small

 5     brigade.  It had the task of cleaning or mopping up the terrain because

 6     there were allegedly terrorists there.  This was a brigade that was

 7     engaged in specific conditions or circumstances, and it plays the same

 8     role automatically, and they have their own command staff.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Are you saying this is an army brigade or a police

10     brigade?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A police brigade for special

12     warfare.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  So you think it may be because of its special

14     function that it used a forward command post.  That's the point of your

15     answer, is it?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, because someone has to command

17     with this brigade.  Someone has to follow the operations closely of this

18     brigade, and this was an elite brigade, a strong brigade in terms of men,

19     and it is completely understanding that a higher-ranking officer shall

20     command with such a brigade.  This was a very important area for the

21     Yugoslav State because it was very close to the border with Albania.

22             Before the war and during the war, the tasks were such and the

23     subordination was such so that everybody should know who commands with

24     which unit, who belongs to which unit.  So this was a special brigade.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Djordjevic.

Page 1299

 1             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Why is this the first time that

 2     he mentions attendance at such a meeting with such high-ranking

 3     commanders?  The witness never stated this before.  Even what my

 4     colleague Mr. Stamp said, that he marked forward command post of the

 5     police on the map, I could agree with that, but never before have I come

 6     across this kind of a statement of his where he speaks of this police

 7     command post where he sees the general and all these other people who are

 8     discussing matters there, including other people who have very high rank

 9     and so on and so forth.  Why is this the first time that he's saying

10     this?  Why has he never said so before?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't asked specifically about

12     this brigade in the past, just like you're asking me now.  That's the

13     reason.  There's no other reason.  I wasn't asked in details before, Who

14     did you see there, how did they look, and so on and so forth.

15             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   No one's asking you now in any kind of detail either.  This is

17     your statement.  How is it that --

18        A.   Your question led me to this answer.

19        Q.   No.  That's what you claim in your testimony in direct

20     examination.  It's not that I provoked you to say this.  You had already

21     said it.

22             But my next question - our time is limited - the first time you

23     say that this was a meeting that you attended when the massacre in Meje

24     was planned.  Tell me, were you personally in attendance there at that

25     meeting, and in what capacity did you attend that meeting?  I never saw

Page 1300

 1     this before.  I never saw you claiming anywhere that you attended a

 2     meeting where the massacre in Meje was being planned literally.  You are

 3     saying now for the first time that you attended a meeting where the

 4     massacre in Meje was being planned.

 5        A.   We were not convened there to have a meeting.  It was a meeting

 6     for other things.  Persons mentioned in the statement were supposed to

 7     take part in the funeral of an officer -- of an officer who had been

 8     killed in Meje, and I was living there at the time.  I had my guards.  I

 9     had people from the military police with me there.  These people came.  I

10     knew Momir Stojanovic very well.  Perovic was with me there.  I was there

11     in the corridor of the building when they entered.  He stopped for a chat

12     with me, so at this meeting this thing was mentioned.

13             It was said at the meeting that at least 100 people should be

14     killed and the whole territory burnt down.  I've mentioned this in my

15     previous statement as well.  At the time, I understood this to be a

16     reaction of the anger.

17             The first cousin of Prascevic is Momir's wife.  They were somehow

18     in-laws.  This is how I understood it at the time, as a reaction to an

19     anger, but unfortunately what was said there came true.  I'm not saying

20     that he planned it, but I heard this being said, and unfortunately, it

21     really happened.

22        Q.   I asked you about all of this because I did not see that that was

23     your testimony earlier on, Mr. Peraj.

24             Now my next question:  The first time you say that at 2200 hours

25     on the 27th of April - I'm going to slow down because this is way too

Page 1301

 1     fast for the interpreters - at the cultural centre, across -- over the

 2     shoulder of Zdravko Vinter, you said that you read a report on an

 3     operation carried out, and it is mentioned that 74 terrorists were killed

 4     in -- and 68 in Korenica.  Is that right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   In your statement of 2000, in paragraph 31, your statement of the

 7     18th of April, 2000, you say that four days after the Meje incident, you

 8     saw on this computer this information that I put to you a few moments ago

 9     concerning the terrorists who were killed in Meje and Korenica, but you

10     do not refer to Zdravko Vinter in your statement of the 18th of April,

11     2000.  Why not?

12             MR. STAMP:  May I just say --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this paragraph, I've made a

14     correction.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp.

16             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, if he is going to direct the witness to

17     some previous statement he's made in a statement, I think counsel should

18     show the witness the statement and quote precisely what the witness is

19     purported to be saying in the statement.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  I would not disagree with you, Mr. Stamp, but as a

21     matter of practical convenience, we have often been able to proceed

22     successfully in a less formal way, but --

23             The witness points out he's corrected the paragraph,

24     Mr. Djordjevic.  It's paragraph 31, I think.

25             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  Okay.  And the number of this statement is

Page 1302

 1     D001-5788, and D001-5797. [Interpretation] So before we actually see it,

 2     I'm just going to try to get an answer from Mr. Peraj as to why that was

 3     not stated then.  I know what the witness did, correct, but I'm asking

 4     him why did he state what he stated then?  Why was it not handled this

 5     way, as he ultimately corrected it?  What's the reason?

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Do you remember what was in that statement,

 7     Mr. Peraj, or do you need to look at it first?

 8             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Here it is on the screen, Your

 9     Honours.  [In English] In B/C/S, not in Albanian, as far as I can see,

10     but I think that there is not any problem about that.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Is it paragraph 31 that we should turn to?

12             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  Yeah.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  So we will get paragraph 31 on the screen.

14             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  Yep.  No, it is not 31.  It's at paragraph 50

15     and 66.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  I'm sorry.  Are you saying it's no longer 31 but

17     5-0?

18             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Fifty, 66, paragraph 41, and my

19     colleague Mr. Stamp mentioned a supplementary statement where the witness

20     changed all the things that he said in those paragraphs.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  The Albanian version, I'm told, has some 34

22     paragraphs.

23             MR. STAMP:  And may I just say, Your Honour, may I just say that

24     I said no such thing.  I did not mention in a statement where the witness

25     changed all the things that he said in those paragraphs.  I didn't say

Page 1303

 1     that.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  In my hand is a statement dated the 18th of April,

 3     2000, Mr. Djordjevic.  Is that the one that you have in mind?

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 5             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct, Your

 6     Honour.  I want to know why he did not mention Mr. Vinter at the time at

 7     all.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Is there a particular paragraph that deals with

 9     this event?

10             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  It's, I think, page 5 of this statement.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  We'll see whether page 5 can be brought up onto

12     the screen.

13             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  In the B/C/S there is no that.  It is about

14     Major Zivkovic and -- but in that statement, for sure -- I have to find a

15     hard copy because I also can't see on the ...

16             Yeah.  That's the page 7, in fact.  [Interpretation] Second

17     paragraph starts:  "[In English] Four days later, the incident in Meje, I

18     saw in the computer we had at a cultural centre that 68 men were killed

19     in Meje and 74 men in Korenica ..." and so on.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  And what is your question?

21             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  In his statement, in his -- [Interpretation] of

22     the 8th and 9th of August admitted into evidence under 92 ter in full,

23     the witness mentions Officer Vinter, and he says that he noted that he

24     saw this report looking over his shoulder.  Why did he not say that at

25     the time but only in this statement?  So why this discrepancy?  It will

Page 1304

 1     turn out to be important.

 2             MR. STAMP:  Your Honour --

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Just pause at that question.

 4             Mr. Stamp.

 5             MR. STAMP:  If we look at what has been shown to the witness here

 6     in the statement of 2000 or what is written: "Four days later, the

 7     incident in Meje, I saw in the computer we had at the cultural centre, 68

 8     were killed --"

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  We're about to deal with that, Mr. Stamp.  We're

10     about to deal with that.

11             MR. STAMP:  If my friend is representing to the witness that the

12     witness --

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp, if you could be seated, please.

14             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, may I just make the point with

15     respect --

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Would you please be seated, Mr. Stamp.

17             MR. STAMP:  Very well.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Not very well.  If you're asked to be seated, be

19     seated.

20             MR. STAMP:  Yes, Your Honour, I have --

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.  Now be seated, please.

22             MR. STAMP:  Your Honour, I have --

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp, please be seated.

24             MR. STAMP:  Very well.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Now, Mr. Djordjevic, you want to put to the

Page 1305

 1     witness that in paragraph 31 he has not mentioned the name of a

 2     particular person, Vinter; is that correct?

 3             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct.  When we're

 4     talking about --

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.

 6             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] -- the 18th of April statement.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.

 8             Mr. Peraj, if you look at paragraph 31 in front of you, you've

 9     described seeing a report about these bodies at the cultural centre on a

10     computer.  Can you give an explanation why in that paragraph you did not

11     mention the name of the person Vinter?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did mention his name both during

13     my testimony in the Milosevic trial and Milutinovic trial in this court.

14     It's not the first time I mention his name.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  When you gave this statement in April 2000, when

16     you were dealing with the subject matter in paragraph 31, is there a

17     reason why you did not mention the name of that particular person?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To tell you the truth, I'm not

19     clear either.  I know that I mentioned his name, and I don't know why it

20     doesn't appear there.  I state here with full responsibility that the

21     person behind the computer was Zdravko Vinter.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Now, is there anything further,

23     Mr. Djordjevic, you want to ask about that?

24             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Judge, I am satisfied with this

25     answer, and I will move on to my next question.  My next question is

Page 1306

 1     Seregj Perovic.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Is this your last question, Mr. Djordjevic?

 3             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] This is my last topic, Seregj

 4     Perovic.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  And how long would you expect to be on that?

 6             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  Till 2.00.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  I'm afraid that is too long for the tape.  We're

 8     going to have to conclude the evidence on Monday, and on Monday you may

 9     expect to have ten minutes, not five minutes.

10             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  That's correct, Your Honour.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.

12             Mr. Stamp, I had to be rather abrupt with you earlier.  There are

13     times when if the Chamber asks you to be quiet or be seated in the middle

14     of questioning, you must accept that.

15             MR. STAMP:  I understand, Your Honour, and I'm prepared to accept

16     it, as I did.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, even at this moment your mood suggests that

18     you may not be, but we will put that aside, and please understand that if

19     you are asked to sit, you should sit.

20             MR. STAMP:  Yes, Your Honour.  I just --

21             JUDGE PARKER:  At some other time, you may want to raise the

22     matter again.

23             Now, the point you were going to make, as you've half-indicated

24     it, was very obvious to the Chamber, and there was no need to make it.

25             MR. STAMP:  Very well.

Page 1307

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  And I tried to in this questioning pin down the

 2     one question that was being asked.

 3             MR. STAMP:  I see that.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Stamp.

 5             MR. STAMP:  May I just apologise to the Court, but I thought at

 6     the time, at that time, that I was raising something that it was my duty

 7     to raise, to stand on my feet and say it, but I intend to abide by the

 8     rulings of the Court.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  We can well understand that was your position, and

10     this is why we are parting in good harmony I trust, Mr. Stamp.

11             MR. STAMP:  Yes, indeed.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  We are now, unfortunately, having to continue your

13     evidence on Monday, I'm afraid, Mr. Peraj.  We have a time limitation

14     that we can sit, and we've reached just beyond that time.  Our tapes will

15     run out at any moment.  So I'm afraid we cannot finish your evidence.

16     There will be more questions from Mr. Djordjevic, more from Mr. Stamp.

17     The Chamber may have some.

18             You need to say something?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  It is not

20     possible for me to continue my evidence on Monday.  If I am forced to,

21     then that's a different story, but unfortunately, it's not possible for

22     me.  As of Tuesday, I've made it known to the officers that my wife is

23     ill.  She's suffering from high blood pressure.

24             Personally, I don't have anything against coming and testifying

25     on Monday and staying here for the weekend.  I'm even available in the

Page 1308

 1     evenings.  I know that it's not possible in this court, but because of my

 2     wife, please believe me that it really isn't possible for me.  However,

 3     if you obliged me to come and testify, then I will do that.  If you issue

 4     an order about that, then I will do.  Otherwise, I'd rather not.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you for making your position clearly known.

 6     You can see the position we have reached and the difficulty.  I am

 7     unaware of the flight schedules that would enable you to get home, but I

 8     can say that it is anticipated that your evidence on Monday would be

 9     finished by 10.30 in the morning, and it may be possible to arrange a

10     flight for you then to be home by Monday evening.

11             We're sorry about that, Mr. Peraj, but that is the way the matter

12     has gone.

13             We now adjourn until Monday morning at 9.00.

14                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.59 p.m.,

15                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 23rd day of

16                           February, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.