Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1403

 1                           Wednesday, 25 February 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.26 p.m.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Good afternoon.  My apologies.  I was delayed on

 6     another matter, and so we are late starting.

 7             Mr. Djurdjic, I understand there's some matter that you need to

 8     raise.

 9             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  I have a

10     few questions, actually two questions, one pertaining to the transcript,

11     and the second one is information from the Prosecution that we received

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Page 1404

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Ms. Kravetz.

 2             MS. KRAVETZ:  Yes, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I wonder if this

 3     matter should not be addressed in private session rather than in open

 4     session.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  What is the concern, that we have witnesses that

 6     have some protective measures?  Is that the concern?

 7             MS. KRAVETZ:  No, the concern has to do with -- and the specific

 8     issue that's being raised by my colleague and some filings that have been

 9     made with respect to these witnesses which are of a confidential nature.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  I see.  Well, in that case, we better go into

11     private session.

12                           [Private session]

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Page 1405











11  Pages 1405-1412 redacted. Private session.















Page 1413

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24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

Page 1414

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  I think we have 92 ter resolved for the moment.

 4     There may, of course, be some oral evidence led from the witness in

 5     addition to any past statement or transcript, if there's need for some

 6     amplification or clarification, and that's what the 92 ter allows.

 7             If we can move then to the other issue, Mr. Djurdjic.  The

 8     counsel for the Prosecution tells us that in fact each of the -- eight of

 9     the nine future witnesses to be called in the next two weeks have been

10     the subject of notification to the Defence, and I have here notifications

11     dated the 16th of February and the 23rd of February, which appear to set

12     out those witnesses, eight of the nine.  The one omitted is the witness

13     (redacted)  And do

14     I understand correctly, or do you accept that you had notification of

15     eight of the nine witnesses?

16             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, to be clear, in the

17     latest notification from the Prosecution, all is timely.  We have no

18     objections to that, except for that part that has to do with the

19     subpoena.  So we don't know if that order will stay or not.  This is one

20     of the concerns of the Defence.

21             As for this gentleman, I don't know if it's a private session

22     matter or not.  It doesn't matter.  I'm not going to mention the name.

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Page 1415

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)  Some of them are

 4     not on the list.  That is why we thought this gentleman whose last name

 5     you mentioned, that there's only five days left.  We were informed

 6     yesterday that he is due on Monday.  So this is part of the whole problem

 7     of the order and whether the order will remain so that we have an

 8     opportunity to prepare.

 9             I don't know if you understood me, but there was -- we did not

10     receive any decision granting the request of the Prosecution for

11     subpoenas.  The Prosecution did inform us about their plans for the

12     following two weeks.  That part of it is all right.  It's just that this

13     witness was not on a regular list for two weeks in advance but in an

14     addition that had to do with the subpoena request.  So I think that even

15     then there was a question of whether these witnesses would be able to

16     come or not.

17             Thank you very much.  I don't want to take up any more of your

18     time.

19                           [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

20             JUDGE PARKER:  If we could go back to private session

21                           [Private session]

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Page 1416











11  Pages 1416-1421 redacted. Private session.















Page 1422

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11                           [Open session]

12             JUDGE PARKER:  I would be grateful, Ms. Kravetz, if you would

13     prepare now and serve on the Defence and provide a copy to the Chamber of

14     the witnesses that it is contemplated will be called from this point on,

15     including the witnesses who are listed for the week commencing the 9th of

16     March, so that there is a clear list in the order that you anticipate

17     calling them.  And if there is a particular date requirement about any

18     witness on that list, if that could be indicated.  In other words, if

19     travel or other -- or subpoena or other issues dictate the witness being

20     called on a particular day or around a particular date, please indicate

21     that because that may affect the order in which that witness comes to be

22     called.  But if we can get that, it will then be clear to the Defence and

23     the Chamber just what is proposed and in what order, and preparations can

24     be made accordingly.  And if a bit of luck and with the goodwill of the

25     Defence, it may be that the matter can proceed then without further

Page 1423

 1     difficulty.  I'd be grateful.

 2             Is there any other matter, then, Mr. Djurdjic?

 3             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] We have some transcript issues,

 4     Your Honour, but as for the other issue, we will make our full

 5     contribution, and we have accepted to always have lined up a reserve

 6     witness, as it were.  But I think when we received the schedule for

 7     March, I did not notice that there was a single free day, because every

 8     week the schedule was for five days a week.  But under the current

 9     conditions and with the resources that we have at our disposal, I assure

10     you that even doing our best, we are unable to meet this schedule unless

11     we proceed in the manner that you have just now proposed, and I thank you

12     for that.

13             Now, I would like to touch upon the transcript of Monday --

14             JUDGE PARKER:  [Previous translation continues] ... is that the

15     transcript is inaccurate, it would be a practical first measure to just

16     note in writing to the Registry your concern of inaccuracy, and the

17     transcript can then be checked.  Is that the concern?

18             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.  Maybe I

19     have misspoken.  There are not -- it's not incorrect, the transcript.

20     There's just a letter that needs to be added there.  But as for the other

21     matter, I would just like to ask of the witness, because the word was

22     entered in the transcript in Serbian, and it wasn't translated into

23     English.  So it's not really a transcript correction, Your Honour.  There

24     are not errors in the transcript.  It is just that the letters P and B

25     have been replaced for a name of a village, and as for the other two

Page 1424

 1     words, I would just -- I hope you will allow me to ask of the witness to

 2     clarify those two words and translate them.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  If the only complaint with the transcript being

 4     the transposition of the letter P and a B in the name of a village, I

 5     think will have been extremely successful.  The sorts of problems that

 6     you have identified are matters that can be taken up with the Registry

 7     who will arrange corrections, if necessary, in the formal transcript.

 8             Could I mention before it passes without comment, that you have

 9     on more than one occasion, both yourself and Mr. Djordjevic, mentioned

10     that you as a Defence feel yourselves under time pressures.  That is a

11     matter which needs to be taken up with the Registry if it is your concern

12     that the resources presently available to you are inadequate.  We are

13     progressing, as originally indicated, to a timetable which in the coming

14     month will usually be five days a week, and that will be our expectation

15     of progress for the future.  There will, of course, be reasons for

16     interruption, and every now and again we must effect a break to enable

17     everybody to catch up a few days.  But we can expect a normal progression

18     of five days a week sitting.

19             Now, if that is a matter that is presenting undue difficulty to

20     you and Mr. Djordjevic, that's a matter that must be discussed with the

21     Registry officers to see what, if anything, change can be made, because

22     that is the timetable that you will need to anticipate.

23             I believe now -- is there something further?

24             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just want to make

25     this clear, completely.  Mr. Djordjevic had a discussion with the

Page 1425

 1     Registry last week, and he assessed it as very positive, so now we expect

 2     that the Trial Chamber or, rather, that someone from the Registry should

 3     get in touch with the Trial Chamber, Your Honour, to reassess the level

 4     that has been assigned to this case, and I think they will seek your

 5     opinion.  My understanding was that this will be done in the course of

 6     this week.  So the procedure before the Registry is already underway and

 7     I expect that it will be resolved in a positive manner.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  So long as you're clear that decisions about the

 9     funding of the Defence are in the hands of the Registry and not of the

10     Chamber.  That is the way it will proceed.

11             I think we now need to go into private session so that the

12     witness can be brought in.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14                           [Closed session]

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Page 1426

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 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 7                           Cross-examination by Mr. Djurdjic:  [Continued]

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.

 9        A.   Good afternoon.

10        Q.   First of all I'd like to ask you, how is your health?  Are you

11     all right?  You have to say it into the microphone.

12        A.   Well, I'm not too well, but I think I'll manage.

13        Q.   Mr. Witness --

14        A.   I cannot hear you.  There's something wrong with this headset.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  I will speak for a moment to see whether you are

16     hearing.  Are you able to hear now the translation of what I say?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear the Judge, but I do not

18     hear the translation.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Your microphone, Mr. Djurdjic.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can only hear the Judge speaking

21     in English.

22             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness has just

23     told me that he can hear you, he can hear you speaking in English, but he

24     cannot hear the translation.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't hear anything that the

Page 1427

 1     Judge said.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  He is receiving on the earphone the English

 3     translation -- the translation into B/C/S of what I am saying.  If you

 4     are speaking in B/C/S --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's all right now.  Now I can hear

 6     it.

 7             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Can we resume now?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Your health problems, are they chronic, or is it something that

11     you just have now?

12        A.   Well, no, I had flew here and then I got sick, and then yesterday

13     I had some personal, private, problems.

14        Q.   Witness, we were a bit too fast the last time we spoke, so please

15     wait for the interpretation.  Well, it would seem that The Hague does not

16     sit very well with you, because my understanding was that you were not

17     too well the last time you were here, but let's move on.

18             Reading back the transcript from the day before yesterday, you

19     did not recollect what you had said while you were testifying in the

20     Milutinovic trial, and yet in the statement, the additional statement of

21     the 19th of February of this year, you managed to recollect events that

22     were ten years ago.  But am I correct if I claim that it is easier to

23     recollect events that were sooner rather than earlier on?

24        A.   Well, you're correct when you say that it is easier to recollect

25     events of two years ago than now, but there was nothing new that I said

Page 1428

 1     on this particular occasion.

 2        Q.   Yes, all right.  But that's something the Judges will determine,

 3     what's new and what's not.

 4             Now I would like you to give me additional information.  Why did

 5     you sign that statement either at that hotel or in some park between Lada

 6     and Slavija?  What was the reason?

 7        A.   I don't know.  Did you hear me?

 8        Q.   Well, please explain this to us.  Tell us how this transpired,

 9     this signing of the statement.  Where did you meet?  How did you meet?

10        A.   Well, we agreed to meet at Hotel M, and the intersection when you

11     go from Slavija towards the Zvezda stadium, there was some kind of

12     accident.  So we moved from there, and we went to a park there.  We sat

13     on a bench, and we signed the statement.  That's it.

14        Q.   Am I right in saying that one of the investigators who was with

15     you on the first day was there on this occasion and some other woman who

16     had not been there the first time?

17        A.   No, neither of these individuals had been there the first time

18     when I gave my statement, so these were not the same people.

19        Q.   In other words, on this second occasion these people were new

20     people that you hadn't seen before.

21        A.   Yes, I had never seen them.  I just signed the statement.

22        Q.   Now tell me this:  Who, in addition to you, who else signed this

23     statement?

24        A.   I don't know.  I'm sorry, I don't know.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 1429

 1             Now I would like to move on -- or, actually, let's pick up where

 2     we left off on Monday.  Am I correct in saying that the only time that

 3     you used the can with aerosol, the air-freshener can, was in the house

 4     that you set on fire, that you described in paragraph 36, and that this

 5     did not repeat, this did not happen again.

 6        A.   Yes, this was in the house in Cabrat.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell me who was the person who used this

 8     aerosol can?

 9        A.   I cannot recall exactly, but I think it was Lekic.  I think it's

10     him, but I'm not sure.  I've already said.  I think it was him, either

11     him or Mali, one of the two of them.  But which one I'm not sure.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Did you report to anyone that this house was set on

13     fire for no reason?

14        A.   No, no.

15        Q.   Do you consider this to be normal procedure, a normal thing to

16     do?

17        A.   Well, why would I go reporting it when Nesovic was there?

18        Q.   Regardless of who was there, everyone has a duty to report a

19     criminal act, especially a criminal act committed during wartime,

20     regardless of who is present and who is attending.

21        A.   Well, I did not report it.

22        Q.   Thank you.  You said that when you got to the third house and

23     when the policeman was wounded, that the bombing began.  Can you please

24     describe where these bombs fell and what it looked like.

25        A.   The bombs were falling all around, starting from the church,

Page 1430

 1     which is towards the end, and then the streets where we were.  Some small

 2     tiny streets, we found it very difficult to go through them.  Electrical

 3     poles were falling down and walls were coming down, bricks.  That part

 4     was bombed, then I think that it was bombed once again after that.  But

 5     that was practically the centre of Djakovica.  Am I speaking too quickly?

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  You're just on the verge of being too quick, but

 7     Mr. Djurdjic is doing a good job of pausing.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

 9             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10        Q.   Witness, would you agree with me that the military police

11     submitted criminal charges against all the persons it found had committed

12     criminal acts and submitted them to the military prosecutor's office for

13     further procedure?

14        A.   Absolutely.

15        Q.   Am I right or am I correct when I say that in your unit strict

16     discipline was imposed and that all those who perpetrated crimes were

17     detained and handed over to the court authorities?

18        A.   Yes, absolutely.  There was knowledge about all those who had

19     committed crimes.

20        Q.   Thank you.  In your previous statements you mentioned proceedings

21     against Major Radic and Major -- and Lieutenant-Colonel Micic.

22        A.   As for Major Radic, there was a criminal report submitted.  As

23     for Lieutenant-Colonel Micic, the proceedings were completed in Belgrade

24     recently, and he was acquitted.  I was there during the inquiry.  Even

25     then there weren't enough arguments for his sentencing.  But in any case

Page 1431

 1     he was taken into custody.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  So the legal procedures were conducted, military

 3     legal procedures?

 4        A.   From the investigation, conducted by investigators from the

 5     military police in Prizren until the time that he was brought into

 6     custody, the proceedings were conducted in accordance with the law.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at

 9     Exhibit P962.  This is on the 65 ter list.  Just one moment.  I would

10     like to give you another exhibit.  This is a Defence exhibit.  I

11     apologise.  I find it a bit difficult to find it.  It doesn't matter.

12     Well, let's find it after the break.  We'll continue.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  You mention an Exhibit 962, Mr. Djurdjic.

14             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] P962, according to the 65 ter

15     list.  The Defence also tendered it.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  We'll keep looking for it.

17             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] We can look at it after the break,

18     perhaps.  It's not a problem.

19             MR. NEUNER:  If I can assist, it's 65 ter number 00962.  It's not

20     an exhibit yet.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  That might help.  Thank you.

22             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] My associate did find it,

23     Your Honours, but it's not a problem.  Perhaps it's in the e-court.  We

24     will find it after the break.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is something on the screen

Page 1432

 1     right now.

 2             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that's it.  Can we look

 3     at this exhibit now?  Can we look at paragraph 124 and 103 first?

 4     Page 10.  Page 11, please.

 5        Q.   Can you see number 124?

 6        A.   Can you please zoom in a little bit on this line, 124.

 7     Wonderful.  I can see it now.

 8        Q.   Witness, is this criminal report pertaining to Slobodan Radic?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at paragraph 104 now.

11     This is on page 9.  104, please.  Can we zoom in on that.  103, I

12     apologise.

13        Q.   Yes, yes, this is Zlatan Mincic.

14        A.   Correct.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

17     tender this exhibit, the whole document because these are all the persons

18     who were criminally charged and processed in the 549th Motorised Brigade

19     in this time period indicated in the document.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps I could find some other

21     people here if I were to ...

22             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be D00035, Your Honours.

24             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Witness, so we don't have to go back to this document and open it

Page 1433

 1     again, can you look at column 70.  This should be either on page 5 or 6

 2     of the document.

 3             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Bravo.  Thank you.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says Ivan Stefanovic.

 5             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Yes.  No, no.  All right, I'm going to look at this later about

 7     that bridge.  Well, let's continue.  Thank you.

 8             Is that the soldier who killed, who actually killed that young

 9     man, but then he was later killed?  It has to do with the killing under

10     the bridge.

11        A.   Yes, yes, that's right.  Well, that boy was killed, that young

12     man was killed later.

13        Q.   All right.  Thank you?

14             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to look at 41,

15     please.

16        Q.   It's incorrect in paragraph 41 when it is stated that your unit,

17     "my unit had the task of ordering Albanian villagers to leave their

18     homes," and then it goes on to say that this was ordered by Major

19     Vlatko Vukovic, and that this usually was conveyed through Nesovic and

20     that an order several times came directly from Vukovic.  Do you agree

21     that this is incorrectly stated in your statement?

22        A.   This is not an order.  We can interpret it --

23        Q.   Please.  Now we can talk about that later.  I am asserting, just

24     tell me whether what is said here is incorrect in your statement or not.

25     I read that.  If you need, take paragraph 41 and tell me if this is an

Page 1434

 1     incorrect interpretation of your statement.

 2        A.   We did tell them to go.  If you consider that to be an order,

 3     then it's an order.

 4        Q.   Witness, I have quoted what is said in the statement.  I am

 5     asking you if this is an incorrect interpretation of your words, and if

 6     it is, then we're going to establish later what is correct.

 7        A.   If it does say "order," then I disagree that it's an order.  In

 8     my view it's not an order.

 9        Q.   So, then, you agree with me that what I read to you actually is

10     incorrectly interpreted.

11        A.   If that's what it says.  If it says an order, then that is

12     incorrect.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Let us continue.  In that paragraph it is correctly

14     said "My Major Vukovic never issued an order about expelling the

15     villagers," that they should be expelled to Albania.  Do you agree with

16     me?

17        A.   Absolutely.  He never did that.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Am I correct when I say that the population was not

19     moving, or they did not relocate, until cluster bombs began to fall?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you.

22        A.   I said that in my statement.

23        Q.   I'm going to read to you a part of the paragraph 41:

24             "I claim that it is incorrectly interpreted in the statement what

25     I am going to read now:  'Orders always referred to only the Albanian

Page 1435

 1     villages.  I'm sure there were never any written orders for these kind of

 2     assignments.  We Serbs learned in mistakes made during the wars in

 3     Croatia and Bosnia so that the commander would not order the expulsion of

 4     innocent Albanian civilians in written form but would issue a verbal, an

 5     oral, order.  I'm convinced that the order came from the top, from above.

 6     This could not be an order by a local commander such as Major Vukovic, or

 7     even a brigade commander such as Delic.  He could not take it upon

 8     himself to order the expulsion of civilians from the village because

 9     there is no operative goal to that.  An order of that scale had to have

10     been approved from the top.'"

11             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters note, we do not have the

12     original statement.

13             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   You listened carefully to what I read from paragraph 41 of your

15     statement, so I kindly request, if you understood my question, to answer.

16        A.   I understood the question, and it's like this --

17        Q.   Witness, witness, just tell me if something is different than

18     what you thought, but mainly it is the way it was put in writing.  You

19     didn't say it the way it was put in writing in the statement in that way,

20     and then later you will say what you thought and how you said.

21        A.   One of the facts is that it is not correct, that it was only the

22     Albanians who were there.  There were also some Serbs there.  Let's look

23     at the village of Brekovac, for example.  There were not only Albanians

24     there but also Serbs, and we also moved them closer to town.  Nobody

25     ordered the expulsion of those people but only their relocation.

Page 1436

 1        Q.   Witness, we have a large problem here because one statement of

 2     yours that is written is going to be tendered into evidence, and it is

 3     believed that what is written in correct.  And in the beginning you gave

 4     the solemn declaration that this is correct.  This is why I'm reading

 5     this to you, because you are under oath, to say if this statement was

 6     interpreted correctly or not, yes or no.  And then later we will

 7     establish if it isn't correctly interpreted, what is correct and what is

 8     not.  I'm asking you this.  We have to clarify this.  Do you understand?

 9     Because this is your statement.  It will remain.  And if it is standard,

10     it will constitute evidence, and what you say has to be interpreted

11     according to the law.

12        A.   May I go ahead?  Oh, I wasn't sure if you had finished or not.

13             I said earlier that it is one thing to talk about relocation.  To

14     an extent it's correct, and to an extent it is not.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             I am going to move now to paragraph 42.

17        A.   Very well.

18        Q.   I also claim that your statement was not interpreted correctly,

19     and you can tell me if I am correct or not.  Now I am quoting:

20             "That exception actually did not apply to Kosovo.  There was no

21     legitimate reasons to relocate civilians, but we were still given the

22     order to carry out this task.  For us, from a military aspect, the

23     expulsion of civilians didn't have any -- make any sense.  While the

24     civilians were in their homes, we were not bombed by NATO, but within a

25     few days after they left, we were bombed."

Page 1437

 1        A.   Yes, that is correct.  I did say that, but let me clarify why.

 2     May I do that?  I, as a soldier, when the civilians were there, as a

 3     soldier I believed that it was better for them to be with us.  It's up to

 4     the commander what he thinks about that.  My opinion and the opinion of

 5     the commander do not have to be the same.  That is the essence of what I

 6     said.  I, as a soldier, feel better if the civilians are around.

 7        Q.   Witness, may I conclude that these are your thoughts?

 8        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Earlier you said that I was correct when I said that

10     civilians began to leave their homes only when NATO began bombing.

11        A.   Yes, that is correct.  Some left on their own.  We told others to

12     relocate.  But I really cannot explain that now.  If you go to somebody

13     and you tell them something, we don't know if they consider that to be an

14     order or not.  I mean, if you come to them with a rifle - and a soldier

15     doesn't go anywhere without a rifle - it can be interpreted as an order.

16     I mean, I don't know, I can't explain that in any way.  But in any case

17     we were telling them that they need to go into the direction of

18     Djakovica, not towards the border and not to go out of Kosovo, not to

19     leave Serbia.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that when you relocated the command

21     post from Zub, immediately after that Zub was bombed and it was

22     flattened?

23        A.   Well, not the place where our command was but the surrounding

24     homes, yes, they were flattened.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Now that we're talking about the village houses in

Page 1438

 1     Kosovo and Metohija, could you describe to us what a village home or

 2     house looks like in ...

 3        A.   It depends on whether it's a Catholic house or a Muslim house,

 4     because there is a key difference.  If it is a Catholic house, it's a

 5     usual house like anywhere, with a small fence around it, but if it's a

 6     Muslim house, it has very high walls, and it's surrounded by the walls

 7     all around.  These are quite large houses.  There's only a few houses

 8     that you would find that are small.  And there are lots of auxiliary

 9     buildings in the compound, and so on.

10        Q.   Tell me, on the outside do they have high walls surrounding them,

11     and how high?

12        A.   High walls, at least 2 metres high.  Not lower than that.

13        Q.   Could you tell us, do these houses have openings for rifles above

14     the gate?

15        A.   Well, I don't know if these were openings for rifles, but the

16     fact is that they have very small windows, and this is especially

17     particular for villages.  I don't know what the reason is.  And I just

18     remember something.  There's still vendetta in Kosovo, and that could be

19     one of the reasons.

20        Q.   Thank you.  But will tell me now, so when you look onto a house

21     from a street, you cannot see a window from which you can see into the

22     house from the street; is that right?

23        A.   Well, I assume that's because of the women or for some other

24     reason, I don't know.  But that's how it is.

25        Q.   Witness, I'm not asking you about the reasons; I'm just asking

Page 1439

 1     you about the fact itself.  So there is never a window on a house facing

 2     the street.

 3        A.   Well, it doesn't have to be a rule, but yes, many houses are like

 4     that.

 5        Q.   Well, I was asking you about Muslim houses.  You described what

 6     Catholic houses or other non-Muslim houses are like, regardless of the

 7     ethnic background of the owners, but let's move on.

 8             Can we conclude --

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic, it's time, I'm afraid.  We're going

10     to have to have the first break now, and we'll resume at 20 minutes past

11     4.00.  We'll go into closed session so that the witness can leave.

12                           [Closed session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

24             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Witness, to wrap up this topic, am I correct when I say that

Page 1440

 1     Albanian village houses were a very well-fortified -- very well fortified

 2     for armed resistance?

 3        A.   Well, you're completely right, and I will explain now.  For

 4     instance, the three villages that were encircled that we were talking

 5     about, for instance, in Meja, the houses were exactly as you said now.

 6     In Korenica they were a bit different, a bit more modern, whereas in

 7     Brekovac the houses are totally modern.  They do have high wall fences,

 8     but they are completely different to the other ones.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  I assume that we've clarified and made a distinction

10     between the village houses that weren't Muslim as opposed to Catholic or

11     other houses, so I'm just asking about the Muslim houses not about the

12     Catholic houses that you've already explained.

13        A.   Well, my answer is the same as I've already said.  It depends on

14     the village.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Did you have any first-hand experience where -- with

16     people barricaded inside a Muslim village house with these high walls?

17     If you did, please tell us about it.

18        A.   Well, if we consider those three houses that we entered in

19     Cabrat, you could interpret it as such, regardless of the fact that they

20     were in a town --

21        Q.   Please listen to me, Witness.  Did you have any armed clash or

22     experience with one of -- with a house like that?

23        A.   Well, my answer would be yes.

24        Q.   Could you please describe it.

25        A.   Well, it is very difficult.  There is only one entrance into the

Page 1441

 1     compound.  There are these huge high walls.  Once you walk into the yard,

 2     it's almost like a room.  So if there is someone in the house and you are

 3     in the yard, there is no chance that you can defend yourself.  Are you

 4     satisfied?

 5        Q.   Well, and if the gate is closed?  That was my question.

 6        A.   Well, it was very difficult to enter into the yard.  For

 7     instance, if this was somewhere in the centre of a village, there is a

 8     wall behind you, and you never know whether there's anybody else on the

 9     other side of the wall, so it was a very, very unpleasant situation.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please slow down.  Thank you.

12             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Am I right in saying that your statement was incorrectly

14     interpreted in paragraph 45 where it is stated, in the first sentence, in

15     the first line:

16             "After the entire village -- after we had ordered the village to

17     leave within an hour, it was like an atom bomb had hit the village.

18     Soldiers would go through the village and loot anything that wasn't

19     nailed down.  They took things that they could not even imagine they were

20     going to be able to take them home to Serbia.  There is a lot more that I

21     could say about the looting that went on."

22        A.   Well, you haven't completed the entire statement.  I also

23     mentioned that this was perpetrated by individuals, for the most part.

24        Q.   Well, first, please, I'm asking you about this portion that is in

25     the statement.  Was this correctly interpreted or not?  Was this the

Page 1442

 1     context in which you put it?

 2        A.   This was a conversation between me and the investigator, but the

 3     context is that this was done by individuals.  This was not an organised

 4     action.

 5        Q.   Witness, this is not about context; this is your statement.  And

 6     if it remains as is, then there is no other explaining it.  So I'm just

 7     asking you:  Was this properly interpreted as stated here in the

 8     statement?

 9        A.   Well, I told you that in the end I said that this was perpetrated

10     by individuals.

11        Q.   Well, forget about the individuals.  Just tell me, is this

12     correct?

13        A.   Well, it wasn't organised.

14        Q.   Well, not about the organisation.  The bomb -- as if a bomb had

15     fallen and that you hadn't done anything.

16        A.   Well, I did see this.  I saw it myself.  But, sir, the men that

17     did this, they wore uniforms, but they weren't members of our unit.  I

18     assert this.

19        Q.   Can you tell -- are you telling me that you saw some other

20     members of some other units that stole or looted during the war and that

21     you did not arrest them?

22        A.   Yes, I did see them, certainly, but I did not arrest anyone.

23     Just to be clear, I did not arrest anyone.

24        Q.   When did you see this?

25        A.   Well, I saw this on a number of occasions, but, as I said, this

Page 1443

 1     was perpetrated by individuals.  These individuals were sometimes

 2     civilians, both of Serbian ethnicity and Albanian.  Now, if you can show

 3     me the paper that you showed me earlier where all those names were

 4     listed, there should be on those lists some women, Albanian women, who

 5     also were arrested because they, too, looted, not to mention the Roma

 6     people.  They carried away anything they could.  They took away washing

 7     machines and anything they could get hold of.  So I think this was looted

 8     by members of units -- or the unit that was there but not our unit.

 9        Q.   Well, it seems to me you are not really listening to my question

10     in this portion of the statement --

11        A.   I did, I did.  I know what you're talking about.

12        Q.   Well, here it says:  "After we had ordered the villagers to leave

13     within an hour, it was like an atom bomb had hit the village."

14        A.   Well, I didn't say that this was done by members of my unit.

15        Q.   Am I correct, then, that you did not order the villagers to leave

16     their villages and that that is not the substance of paragraph 45?  Is

17     that what you're saying?

18        A.   Well, sir, here it says "ordered."  I told the Prosecutor that

19     the word "order" could not be translated in any other way.  We told these

20     people to leave and go towards Djakovica.  One thing is to issue an order

21     to someone and force them to do something, and it's quite a different

22     thing when you just tell someone to go somewhere.  I don't know what the

23     reason was, and it wasn't my place to ask about the reasons, but we told

24     these people, You should go to Djakovica and find houses where you could

25     stay with maybe members of your extended family or relatives.  So the

Page 1444

 1     order was not to the effect that they should move out to Albania.

 2        Q.   Well, I don't know how to go about this.  I told you what was

 3     stated in your statement.  You said, "After we had ordered the villagers

 4     to leave within an hour," and now you're saying you didn't order them.

 5     Is it correct that you didn't order them?

 6        A.   Well, for me, it was not an order, in my view.

 7        Q.   Well, thank you.  That means that this was not correctly

 8     translated.

 9        A.   Well, I told the Prosecutor that this was not an order, but it

10     couldn't be translated in any other way into English.

11        Q.   Well, forget the investigator, but, you see, English is a very

12     complex and rich language, and there would be a way of translating it.

13     So this, what is stated here, that you had ordered, that was not

14     something that you actually said.

15        A.   Yes, well, an order is something quite different.  It is when you

16     clearly state to someone, You must do so and so.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel and witness please slow down.

19     The interpreters cannot keep up.

20             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   I'd like you to look at paragraph 47.  All right, 47.  You state

22     here in paragraph 47 that five policemen were ambushed and killed.  Tell

23     me, were you an eye-witness to this?  Did you hear of this?  How did you

24     learn of this?

25        A.   I heard about this.  I saw their boots at the health centre.  I

Page 1445

 1     took some soldiers for an examination, a medical examination, at the

 2     health centre there.  It was an improvised sort of hospital there.  And

 3     people were saying that these were boots that were worn by the policemen

 4     who had gone on patrol earlier in the morning, or, rather, not on patrol

 5     but towards the check-point, towards Junik.  I don't know exactly where

 6     that check-point was.  Whether it was an ambush or not, I don't know, but

 7     they went -- they went that way.  They patrolled that road every single

 8     day.  But there was no army in that village at the time, so in fact they

 9     were killed by a hand-held launcher, rifle launcher, and all that

10     remained were boots and some parts of some equipment.

11        Q.   You said they fired at them and shot them or hit them.  Who was

12     it?  Who fired at them?

13        A.   Well, I don't know who else it could be if not KLA.

14        Q.   Thank you.  You then go on to state that a few days after this

15     event, 400 policemen came.

16        A.   It was on the next day.

17        Q.   How do you know that this happened?

18        A.   How do I know?  Well, they came on buses because they were not

19     from Djakovica.  They were not stationed in Djakovica at this point so

20     they came from somewhere.  The police station in Djakovica had a certain

21     number of policemen.  Some of them were at check-points; some were on the

22     premises.  But these people came from somewhere.

23        Q.   Well, let's just be brief.  You said they came.  Tell us how they

24     came and where they were.

25        A.   They came on buses from the direction of Djakovica, going towards

Page 1446

 1     Meja and Korenica.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please repeat his question.

 3     The interpreter did not hear it.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  You've got so far ahead, there's a whole question

 5     been missed, we're being told.  You're speaking again in a very excited

 6     manner, Mr. Djurdjic, and the witness is replying in an even more excited

 7     manner, and neither of you are leaving a break between question and

 8     answer at the moment.

 9             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will repeat my

10     question.

11        Q.   Where were you, Witness, when you say that you saw these buses

12     with policemen on them?

13        A.   My answer is I was at the command post.

14        Q.   Where was this command post, and what time period are we talking

15     about, or approximately just the month?

16        A.   I'm talking about the month of the events -- I'm not sure of the

17     date, but I think this was in April.  No, I'm sure it was in April.  This

18     was on the road leading from Djakovica to Junik.  So they were going from

19     Djakovica to Korenica and Meja, those two villages.  Between the

20     crossroads and Korenica, our command post was somewhere between the

21     crossroads and the road to Djakovica, but not the command post.  It was a

22     check-point.

23        Q.   Well, how did you know from where you were where these buses

24     stopped?

25        A.   Well, I saw it.

Page 1447

 1        Q.   I don't understand.  Could you please explain that?

 2        A.   Well, simply put, as you go uphill from the crossroads on the way

 3     to Meja, about 1 kilometre beyond that point the buses cannot go any

 4     further.  They stop there; they have to come back.  So in Korenica,

 5     before they got in, the policemen got off the buses, the buses turned

 6     around and left empty.

 7        Q.   Well, Witness, I'm not asking you about the Meja and Korenica

 8     events.

 9        A.   Well, I'm talking about the 400 policemen that I mentioned there

10     because I had not seen them before.  I saw them on this occasion.  Before

11     that they weren't there.

12        Q.   Well, please, now I will read out to you paragraph 47.  This has

13     nothing to do with the policemen you are talking about.  We're not

14     talking about Korenica and Meja.  That will come a little later.  My

15     question referred to this paragraph, that five policeman were ambushed

16     and killed, and that because of this incident, 400 police officers came

17     to Djakovica.  So if you are now talking about Meja, then that would mean

18     that the interpretation in paragraph 47 is also incorrect, and that's why

19     I'm asking you about this.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  The paragraph reads:  "About 400 additional police

21     arrived in the Djakovica area in about 10 buses ..." not "arrived in

22     Djakovica."

23             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in Djakovica, not in

24     the area of Djakovica, and it's not just 400 policemen, there are more.

25     But this is on their arrival in Djakovica, and only in the following --

Page 1448

 1     in the paragraphs that follow will there be mention of the events that

 2     the witness was talking about.  So what I'm asking him about is:

 3        Q.   Is it true that so many policemen and troops arrived in

 4     Djakovica, before the events in Meja and Korenica.

 5        A.   Sir, it does not say in paragraph 47 that they arrived in

 6     Djakovica; it says "in the Djakovica area" and that is correct.  They

 7     came to the Djakovica area, not the town itself.  But of course they did

 8     have to go through the town.  They couldn't get through any other way.

 9     There is only one bridge that they could have crossed.  There was no

10     other way.

11        Q.   I'm going to be forced now to read.  This is the sentence in --

12     let me see, the third sentence:

13             "Within days after this incident about 400 additional police

14     arrived in Djakovica in about 10 buses and a number of civilian

15     vehicles."

16             So in Djakovica, I just read it to you --

17        A.   Which paragraph is that?

18        Q.   47, the third sentence.

19        A.   In my copy it says the following --

20        Q.   I apologise, the fourth sentence.

21        A.   "Within days after this incident about 400 additional police

22     arrived in Djakovica ..."

23             THE INTERPRETER:  We are unable to hear the witness.

24             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   I'm asking you, was this wrongly cited in this statement or not?

Page 1449

 1        A.   If we look at the word "podrucju" area, then that is not wrong.

 2        Q.   Well, it's not there.  The word "podrucju" is not there.

 3        A.   Well, if this refers to the days that preceded --

 4        Q.   It only refers to the day of that event --

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic, the English translation has the word

 6     "area," qualifying Djakovica.  I cannot speak for the other version.  But

 7     your cross-examination is proceeding on the basis that there's no word

 8     "area" there.  The two versions appear to be on the screen.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Serbian it says "in Djakovica"

10     or "to Djakovica."  There's no word "area" in the fourth sentence.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  We cannot hear the witness.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  That's just far too, far too fast, and you weren't

13     speaking into the microphone.

14             The witness accepts, Mr. Djurdjic, that in the Serbian language

15     there is no word "area," but it's in the English version.  That may be

16     enough for your purposes.  You may now need to find out whether the

17     witness is meaning "in the town itself" is or is meaning "in the area of

18     the town."

19             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] You are correct, Your Honour.  In

20     the English version, I just looked, it does say "area."  That is correct.

21     What I'm interested in is --

22        Q.   Witness, please listen carefully.  Does this refer to the time

23     before the events in Korenica and Meja, or you are thinking of the day

24     when they came to Korenica and Meja?

25        A.   That's right.  That's right.

Page 1450

 1        Q.   Please, you have to say which one.

 2        A.   Only to the day they came to Meja and Korenica.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  I have a general kind of question for you now.  Am I

 4     correct if I were to say that during the war in Kosovo and Metohija in

 5     1999, there were no paramilitary units?

 6        A.   I guarantee - I guarantee - that as far as the area I was in, for

 7     sure there was no such soldier there.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9        A.   Or members of anything.  If anyone would have appeared with

10     anything, they would have been arrested for sure.  There's no question of

11     that.

12        Q.   My next question would now refer to a part of your statement

13     where you mention -- it's the same paragraph, Frenki's men.  Am I correct

14     when I say that you saw two persons with a hat that you say when you saw

15     them before were worn by Frenki's men, but you don't know to which units

16     those two members or those two persons belonged?

17        A.   Sir, I spoke with them.  We exchanged -- I had cigarettes.  They

18     gave me juice.  They were driving some private cars, and they told me

19     they were members of the JSO.  What it says here, that they were Frenki's

20     men, I don't know how they turned out there.  I did not see other members

21     of that unit, except for those two people.  I don't know how they

22     happened to come there.  I didn't see any other members of that unit,

23     other than those two.

24        Q.   Well, I then can conclude that you told the investigator that

25     these were members of the JSO, but that he intentionally didn't put that

Page 1451

 1     in, but he put in that Frenki's men were there.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his answer.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  What was your answer to that, please, witness?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Members of the JSO, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Did you mention Frenki's men?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I know that these were -- this

 7     was the JSO unit.  Why would I call them Frenki's men?  This is not a

 8     private army.  It's a part of the -- part of the Ministry of the

 9     Interior.  What is the name?  At the time it was called -- I don't know

10     what it was called, the State Security, actually.  Is that how it was?  I

11     think I said that correctly but ...

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

13             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Witness, sir, the person who conducted the interview arbitrarily

15     put this term in, "Frenki's men," of his own will; am I correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             And when we're talking about the people who questioned you, and

19     there were a few of them there, did anybody introduce themselves as a

20     military or a police expert?

21        A.   No.  There are many things that are strange, even concerning the

22     translation of what I wanted to say.  Well, let me not go into that, let

23     me not take up too much of your time, but the most controversial

24     situations have to do with that.

25        Q.   Well, let us continue.  Let us move to this paragraph 48.  I

Page 1452

 1     assert that in this paragraph what is incorrectly entered is that you

 2     stated that your unit surrounded the area around the villages of Korenica

 3     and Meja --

 4        A.   I didn't say that it surrounded the villages.  I just said it

 5     blocked one part of the road Korenice-Djakovica-Junik between the

 6     intersection of Korenica and a part of the creek which goes towards that

 7     same -- from that same intersection toward the village of Meja.

 8        Q.   Well, you're putting the question instead of me, but let us

 9     assert, it means that this --

10             MR. NEUNER:  Your Honours.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Neuner.

12             MR. NEUNER:  I'm sorry to rise, but this is a quotation here,

13     which I just wanted to bring on the record.  The question was that, in

14     paragraph 48, it was incorrectly stated that "your unit surrounded the

15     area around the villages of Korenica and Meja," and I'm just reading here

16     from the English version, which is signed by the witness, and it says

17     that "the VJ, including my unit, received the order to surround and

18     secure the area around the villages of Korenica and Meja."  Receiving an

19     order to surround is certainly different than surrounding the unit --

20     than surrounding the locations itself.  I just wanted to bring this on

21     the record.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

23             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I disagree, especially because I

24     have a certain opinion about the statement that is being tendered and

25     admitted here under 92 ter, and it's very important.

Page 1453

 1        Q.   My next question will be:  Am I correct that you said to the

 2     investigator that your unit received an assignment to carry out a

 3     blockade of the village from Korenica towards the village of Meja-Orize?

 4        A.   A blockade, yes, because with the number of people that we were

 5     participating with at the time, you couldn't surround such a territory.

 6        Q.   Witness, you're a trained professional, so the difference between

 7     surrounding, or encircling, or blockading; am I correct?

 8        A.   Yes, yes.

 9        Q.   In this indictment it is constantly stated that the villages were

10     surrounded by the forces of the Army of Yugoslavia and the police.  That

11     is why I'm putting this question to you.  This is stated in the

12     indictment by the Prosecutor.

13        A.   Your Honours, may I just say something now?

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am talking about the blockade of

16     the road between the intersection that I mentioned and the village of

17     Korenica.  A part of the creek also was blockaded by a part of my unit.

18     As for what was on the other side, I don't know because I didn't see

19     that.  I don't know if there were any other members there of anything, of

20     the police or the army.  I didn't see that.  But it is a fact that a

21     number of the police came from the direction where our blockade was not

22     located.

23             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Thank you, Witness.

25             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at a document of

Page 1454

 1     the Prosecution under the 65 ter list, P number 615.4, on the screen,

 2     please.  Thank you.  Better.  Excellent.

 3        Q.   Witness, would you be able to mark with an X the place where the

 4     command post was that you came to when you arrived?

 5        A.   Sir, I can mark on the map, or I can make a marking without this

 6     part here.  I know that road really well.  I am very familiar with that

 7     road.  You just tell me the place where the command was for that day.

 8     That's what you're talking about.  It's on the road, in order to be able

 9     to write the letter -- well, that's why I put the little circle here.

10     The house is right next to the road.  Was I clear?

11        Q.   Yes, all right.  Next to this little circle can you please place

12     the letters "KM," "komandno mesto," command post.

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   Thank you.  And, now, please, can you mark the line of the

15     blockade of your unit?

16        A.   From here, from the intersection, the intersection, up to here,

17     approximately up to the entrance of the village, and then this part of

18     the creek, somewhere from here, somewhere along here, in this area.  I

19     apologise, I am not very good at drawing.

20        Q.   Thank you.  At the end of these arrows can you please put the

21     number 1?

22        A.   Here?

23        Q.   Yes, where -- there and on this other side, where you --

24             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] This is for the transcript, just

25     to note that at the end of line of blockade, the witness placed the

Page 1455

 1     number 1.

 2        Q.   Now I would like to ask you to mark the place where the police

 3     check-point was.

 4        A.   Also on the intersection itself, but farther away than I actually

 5     meant to draw it in.  The pen is not very precise, but it's somewhere

 6     around here.

 7        Q.   No problem.  You can place the number 2 there.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   Can you mark the houses that happened to be close to the

10     check-point.

11        A.   I indicated -- well, actually, it's a bit imprecise.  The

12     check-point was here, the houses were here, more or less.  Is it clear

13     now?  The check-point was on the intersection itself, and the houses are

14     some 30 to 40 metres away from the intersection.

15        Q.   At the end of that line, can you please mark the number 3.

16     Number 3 will be the location where those houses were located close to

17     the check-point.

18        A.   [Marks]

19        Q.   Thank you.  I would like to ask you something else.  Was there

20     something else there that you are able to mark; and if so, what?

21        A.   There were houses here.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Can you mark that place with the letter K.

23        A.   [Marks]

24        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please tell me who came to the location where

25     the blockade was together with you, and at what time?

Page 1456

 1        A.   I think it was 6.00 in the morning and Srdjan Kostic was with me

 2     from my squad and some other active-duty soldiers.  I don't know what

 3     their names were.  I don't remember if the commander came with us or if

 4     he came later.  I'm not quite sure about that.  But I think that it was

 5     about 6.00 in the morning.

 6        Q.   How did you arrive?

 7        A.   We came on foot, and I think that the commander came in an

 8     ambulance.  I think that's how it was.

 9        Q.   Where did you set off from?

10        A.   From Brekovac.

11        Q.   Can you tell us who told you to go to Korenica?

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14     that we were supposed to go towards Korenica and that we would find an

15     abandoned house there and that we were supposed to wait there.  That was

16     the day before we actually went there, the evening before we went.

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19        A.   The next day we all set off there together.

20        Q.   Who did you report to before?

21        A.   I don't understand the question.

22        Q.   You were told by the commander of the squad that you were

23     supposed to go there.  Who did you report to?  Who did you set off with

24     so that they would know that you were leaving?

25        A.   We went with a part of the command platoon there.  We all left

Page 1457

 1     Brekovac together, that part of the command platoon and some other

 2     soldiers from our unit.  I don't know, actually, where the others were

 3     deployed.

 4        Q.   Witness, I'm asking you, who did you report to that you were

 5     supposed to leave to Korenica?

 6        A.   When?

 7        Q.   In the morning.  When your commander told you that you had to go

 8     to Korenica, he wasn't with you.  Who did you report to?  Who did you set

 9     off to go to Korenica?

10        A.   We went to the intersection together.  Later then he went in the

11     direction of Meja, and we stayed there at the abandoned house.  This

12     happened the following morning, not when we received our order.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Neuner.

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

21             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, I asked him whom

22     did he inform in the morning that he was going to Korenica and who did he

23     set out for Korenica with, not that he had received the order in the

24     morning.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we all set off together.  I

Page 1458

 1     can't tell you exactly how many of us there were.  There were quite a

 2     few.  Maybe some 50 or 60 men.  Maybe more.  I can't tell you the exact

 3     number, but we all went there together, in the morning.

 4             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Who led this group that set off then?

 6        A.   I can't recall.  One of the officers from the command, but I

 7     can't recall who.  But not Vukovic.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  When you arrived in the area where the command post

 9     was supposed to be, did you search the surrounding terrain?

10        A.   No, because this was an old dilapidated house.  It was deserted.

11     It must have been deserted 30 years earlier.  There was nothing.  It was

12     just ruins, an old ruined house, in ruins, and there was an auxiliary

13     small shed or building, so there was no need to search.

14        Q.   And the unit -- the part of the unit that went to set up the

15     blockade, did they search the terrain before they took up the positions?

16        A.   No, because this was right next to the house.  They were just on

17     the other side of the road where they set up positions, so they were just

18     there one by one.  They were about 10 to 15 metres, one from another, and

19     that's how it was.  So there is no need to search the terrain when the

20     road was completely clear.

21        Q.   Could you just mark the spot where soldier Letic was in this

22     blockade.

23        A.   I cannot indicate precisely the spot, but it was approximately in

24     this area, this line towards the creek.  I can't recall exactly now, but

25     I'm sure it was in this part.  He was next to the creek or up the creek.

Page 1459

 1        Q.   Would you please mark -- put an L there to the right side of the

 2     creek.

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell me, how far is it from the

 5     command post to the crossroads where the check-point was?

 6        A.   Not more than 120 metres.  Maybe less, but let's say it was

 7     120 metres away.

 8        Q.   So if that was the case, then from that check-point to Meja, it

 9     was about 40 metres.

10        A.   No, no.  No, sir.  From the check-point to Meja it was about --

11     well, it was uphill.  Let me think.  I can't really assess exactly, but

12     at least 600 to 700 metres from that spot to the first houses.  Maybe

13     even 700.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, then, on the way to Orize, what was the

15     terrain like and how far was it from the check-point to Orize?

16        A.   I don't know because I never was -- I never was in Orize.  I know

17     it was uphill, and I know that you could get to Meja, to the approaches

18     to Meja on a bus, and then after that you can't because there are a lot

19     of walls, huge rock walls, and you couldn't get through there on buses.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, could you see from the command post Meja and

21     could you see Orize?

22        A.   Only the beginnings of the Meja village but not Orize, because

23     Orize was behind Meja.

24        Q.   Thank you.  But the way I see it, Meja was to the east of the

25     command post, whereas Orize was to the north.

Page 1460

 1        A.   Well, listen, it doesn't matter how it's drawn up here on the

 2     map.  I was in those villages, and I know exactly what it looked like.

 3     So as you go uphill, Meja remains on this side, and then you go to Orize.

 4     So it's not the road going by Meja, it is through Meja, and then you get

 5     to Orize.

 6        Q.   Well, thank you, but we have a map here in front of us, and you

 7     won't argue that this map is incorrect, is it?

 8        A.   No, sir, but I'm just telling you about the road to Orize from

 9     Meja.  There's only that one road going through Meja.

10        Q.   Well, I was asking you about this map, and I asked you to mark

11     this map, whether the configuration was correct and whether it's correct,

12     the way these villages are indicated.

13        A.   Well, it would be correct if a road was shown going through Meja.

14        Q.   Mr. Witness, regardless of the road, is the village put in the

15     right place here in the map?

16        A.   Yes, because you see --

17        Q.   Thank you.  If it is all right --

18        A.   Well, you see the village of Meja is here and Orize is here, and

19     you can see the road going by the village.  So here's Meja and here's

20     Orize, but the road goes, in other words, through Meja and through Orize;

21     it connects them, and then it goes on.  But there were also some Serbian

22     houses here at the beginning of the village, not just at the beginning

23     but thereabouts.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you.  I would now like to take you to paragraph

25     60 in the Serbian version.  In this paragraph --

Page 1461

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Are you planning to tender this map?

 2             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I think so, yes.  I seek to tender

 3     it.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be D00036, Your Honours.

 6             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 7        Q.   Now, paragraph 60 that -- and I'm referring to the sentence,

 8     penultimate sentence, it says, under quotation marks, between quotation

 9     marks, it says "slaughtering Siptars."  After all this time, I know

10     everything you've said about this, but am I right that this word,

11     "slaughtering Siptars," was not properly interpreted and that it should

12     not be there?

13        A.   You are right.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Let's move on.  Now I would like to point you to

15     paragraph 65.

16        A.   I still see the map on the screen so I don't see the paragraphs.

17     I don't see what's going on.

18             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Paragraph 65.  Don't we have it on

19     the screens?  Could I please -- Mr. Registrar, could we have on the

20     screens paragraph 65 of his statement in Serbian, because I can see that

21     the map is still on the screen.  Thank you.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please just enlarge it a

23     bit.

24             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   In the sentence before last in the statement, it says, in your

Page 1462

 1     written statement:  "These men, like the others before, were made to sing

 2     some Serbian nationalistic songs."

 3        A.   I did not say "like the others before," I said "only this group."

 4        Q.   So it is not correctly written down in the statement, what you

 5     had said?

 6        A.   I said literally "only this last group."

 7        Q.   So what's in the statement, what we've just read, that's

 8     incorrect; right?  "These men, like the others ..." that's what it says

 9     there.

10        A.   Well, the words "like the others before" shouldn't be there.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Am I correct that you stated that you had seen four

12     groups of men and that in the last group alone, there were eight to ten

13     men; whereas the other groups were a little smaller, two to three men

14     each?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that in the Milutinovic trial you said

17     that those men were between 22, 23, and 30 years of age, approximately?

18        A.   Referring to the last group, yes.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20        A.   That was my assessment, so this is just an approximation.

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 1463

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7     What was the distance between the command post and where he was, the spot

 8     where he was?

 9        A.   I don't know, because I don't know exactly the spot where he was

10     exactly.  I know -- I don't know where he was assigned, to what spot

11     exactly.  I know where our squad was, approximately the area from which

12     it should have been up to where, but I don't know exactly what position

13     he was at and where he was wounded, where he was exactly when he was

14     wounded.

15        Q.   Excuse me, I didn't hear you, so how far was this?

16        A.   I don't know exactly because I don't know where exactly he was,

17     and I never said that I saw the spot where he was wounded.

18        Q.   So I can conclude that you never went to the spot where he was

19     wounded?

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 1464

 1   (redacted)

 2             MR. NEUNER:  I wanted to make a friendly announcement, and I've

 3     fallen in the same trap before.  My learned friend is mentioning a couple

 4     of colleagues of this witness who is protected, and I believe the more we

 5     keep on mentioning the witness's direct or immediate colleagues in open

 6     session, the easier it will be to identify this witness.  If I could just

 7     kindly ask my colleague to go into private session when he addresses such

 8     issues.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Those references have been redacted, Mr. Neuner.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is totally irrelevant that

13     anyone could hear that.  I have absolutely no reason to hide from anyone.

14     I don't care at all whether it's an open session or a closed session, and

15     I don't have any concerns about that.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  We will continue to preserve the

17     confidentiality --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I have no fears about any

19     threats, especially not any threats from General Djordjevic.

20             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

21     thank my learned friend Mr. Neuner, because I got carried away, but I

22     have another difficulty here.

23             Yesterday, at the very beginning of the evidence of this witness,

24     Lieutenant Nesovic was mentioned, his name, and then Vukovic, not to

25     mention the brigade, so I proceeded from the belief that there were

Page 1465

 1     already some indications there, some identifying points mentioned.  But

 2     yes, we could go into closed session, and I won't mention any names.

 3        Q.   Just another question.  You said -- how far did you say it was

 4     from the command post to the crossroads?

 5        A.   Well, I said not more than 120 metres.

 6        Q.   And from the crossroads to the positions where the blockade was?

 7     Because it was towards Orize, uphill, obviously, how far was it from

 8     there?

 9        A.   Well, I can't tell you exactly.  If we assume that it was about

10     10 to 15 metres and that they -- between men and that they took up

11     exactly the positions they were supposed to, so then it would have been

12     about 120 metres, uphill, towards the village, if they were all in the

13     same area, if they took up their positions exactly as they should,

14     assuming that the distance between soldiers was about 10 to 15 metres.

15        Q.   Thank you.  But, Witness, now, looking at paragraph 62 of your

16     statement, where you stated that Branislav Letic, when he was wounded,

17     the ambulance wasn't even there, that it only came later.

18        A.   It was in the yard throughout this time, except when they took

19     Letic away to the field hospital and when the other two men were taken.

20     I can't recall their names, but I know them both.

21        Q.   Well, I will quote you, and that's in the one-before-last

22     sentence:  "No sooner than the ambulance returned to the hospital," so

23     the ambulance went to the hospital.  It wasn't there.

24        A.   Well, it probably took those two previous wounded men to the

25     hospital.

Page 1466

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Let's move on.  Do you agree with me that the task of

 2     your part of the unit in this blockade was to prevent the KLA from moving

 3     or withdrawing from the area that you were blocking?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Do you know that for the execution of this assignment your

 6     commander formed three execution squads and engaged a platoon of the

 7     military police, communications, and the medics?

 8        A.   This is what I said, more or less.  I gave you the number of

 9     soldiers who were there before we came.  That would be that more or less

10     between 60, 70, or 100 people.  I don't believe that there were so many.

11        Q.   Thank you.  According to the documents that we have, it can be

12     concluded that the movement to Korenica began at 3.30, and that by 6.00

13     in the morning the line of blockade was taken up.  Am I correct, or do

14     you believe that I'm not correct?

15        A.   Well, I couldn't really say.  Perhaps you are correct.  I don't

16     know exactly what time it was, but we were at our positions by 6.00 in

17     the morning.

18        Q.   Would you agree that the line of blockade was taken up and that

19     the length was some 2 kilometres?

20        A.   If you take Orize from Meja and this part, I don't know if it's

21     2 kilometres or not.  I'm not sure that it was that long.  It's too long.

22        Q.   All right.  But am I correct when I say that your unit did not

23     stop and check civilians and that in no way did it force the population

24     to leave their homes?

25        A.   You are correct, but let's just clarify about those 2 kilometres.

Page 1467

 1     Perhaps if the number of people who were in the houses close to the road

 2     towards Korenica, perhaps you could get that number and then put it

 3     together and you can get 2 kilometres, but that's not that.  The blockade

 4     was not that long.  But I do agree with what you said last.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  According to evidence presented in this case or

 6     documents in this case, on the 28th, the second day, at 2.00 your platoon

 7     of the military police was attacked in the area of Kodra e Kikes and the

 8     terrorists tried to pull out towards Djakovica and that they were

 9     prevented from doing that.  Are you familiar with this?

10        A.   I was in the blockade at that time, too, and I didn't hear any

11     firing, and I don't know anyone.  We were in the blockade, and I don't

12     know who was supposed to come and -- well, now, something was happening

13     over there between the civilian police and someone over there.  I don't

14     know why we were doing this blockade.  It's probably that nobody would

15     come out.  But not military because, sir, our military police platoon,

16     our military police did not have the authority to cross over the other

17     side of the river.  It could not have been attacked.  It didn't cross the

18     bridge.

19        Q.   I am asking you, please, to listen to me carefully.  I'm reading

20     slowly to you.  So what I asked you was like this:  The next day, not the

21     day you came there but the following night, at 2.00 in the morning, am I

22     correct if I say that your military police platoon was attacked that was

23     in the area of Kodra e Kikes, in the area of Capta, and that terrorists

24     tried to pull out along that direction?

25        A.   No.

Page 1468

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Am I correct if I were to say that Lieutenant Nesovic

 2     was the security officer in the 2nd Motorised Battalion and that he did

 3     not command any unit and could not have been in command of the unit where

 4     you were either?

 5        A.   Sir, he was a security organ over there.  We said we shouldn't

 6     mention any names, but you mentioned them anyway.  But it doesn't matter.

 7     My squad was directly under his command, so he was directly in command of

 8     my squad, not the lieutenant second class who was in the 2nd Platoon of

 9     the military police.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please repeat his question.

11             MR. NEUNER:  Could you please repeat the question.  The

12     interpreters didn't get it.  And you're also touching upon an area,

13     you're talking about the squad in which the witness was, which is

14     sensitive in terms of his identity.

15             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Mr. Neuner, I did not

16     actually specify the squad but the unit.  The witness mentioned the squad

17     in his answer, which I have no influence about.

18        Q.   But my question or assertion was that the commander of the

19     battalion - I don't want to tell his name and we know who that is - had

20     the authority to command that unit and that's what he was doing and that

21     was what he said.

22        A.   Perhaps the commander did command, but he did it through -- I

23     mean, the orders were issued by the lieutenant.  I don't want to mention

24     his name.

25        Q.   I would like to ask you, or I would like to assert that the

Page 1469

 1     location where the command was, because of the configuration of the

 2     terrain, you were not able to see the entry -- the entrance to Korenica

 3     and those houses.

 4        A.   Sir, I know that road really well.  I went along that road

 5     several times, not during the war.  I'm talking about the time before the

 6     war.  So that part of the road, from our command post to the first houses

 7     in Korenica, is completely flat or straight.  There is no forest or woods

 8     on the side of the road.  On the left side there are fields.  On the

 9     right side is some kind of hillock.  But the actual road is completely

10     flat and clear.

11        Q.   All right.  Can you tell me whether you can see the village of

12     Deva from that command post?

13        A.   Parts of the village, yes.

14        Q.   Do you see the road leading from the village of Deva?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Sir, I assert that from your command post, because of the

17     configuration of the terrain, you could not see the road leading from

18     Deva, and in order to get there you would need to cross to the -- you

19     needed to cross the Renik river in order to reach your command post.

20        A.   From the road, from the road, from Deva, is that what you're

21     asking me?

22        Q.   And to pass through the combat disposition through the Renik

23     river in order to reach your command post.

24        A.   Whose combat disposition?

25        Q.   Your unit that was in the blockade?

Page 1470

 1        A.   Sir, that part of the road from our command post up to the first

 2     houses on the left side, on the riverbank, there is a clear field, a

 3     totally flat field.  You can see almost every house practically.  I don't

 4     know the name of all the villages, but I know that on the left side of

 5     the Djakovica-Junik road, that part that we're talking about, the left

 6     side is totally flat.  There's a flat field there.  Do you know what that

 7     means?  A totally flat field.

 8        Q.   Witness, I still assert that you were not able to see civilians

 9     who were coming from the village of Rogovo, Kusnin?  Do you agree with

10     me?

11        A.   If we are talking about -- sir, are you talking about people who

12     were -- are you maybe thinking about villages that are on the other side

13     of that river, that are not on the side that we're talking about?

14     There's a river, and they're on the other side of the river.  Well, those

15     people were not even there then.  They left before.

16        Q.   So I'm right, and you didn't see that.

17        A.   I didn't say that.

18        Q.   All right, all right.  We'll see that later.  But you did say you

19     didn't see that.

20        A.   All right.  But, I mean, they were not there, so how could I have

21     seen them?  If we're talking about the villages that were on the other

22     side of the river.

23        Q.   Well, you heard what I was saying and what I was telling you.

24             MR. NEUNER:  I just want to bring on a record, because a couple

25     of locations have been suggested to this witness in the past minutes,

Page 1471

 1     whether these locations would be visible from the command post, I,

 2     myself, was a little bit confused.  It was started out by clear sight or

 3     visibility of the village of Korenica and then a couple of new houses --

 4     sorry, new villages were suggested.  I personally found that very

 5     confusing, and I didn't really know what my learned colleague wanted to

 6     establish.  As far as I remember, the witness has only testified about

 7     visibility of Korenica and Meja and not of the other places suggested by

 8     my learned friend.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  I thought at one point that the village mentioned

10     was Deva, D-e-v-a, according to the transcript.  It may be Meja, but it

11     appeared to be Deva.  But otherwise we don't know which villages.  The

12     evidence of the witness appears to be that in that direction, persons

13     could be seen on his side of the river, but he doesn't suggest that

14     persons could be seen on the other side of the river.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, let me clarify the

16     situation.  The Defence counsel says -- or he's talking about some places

17     whose names I don't know, but there is a village by the river on this

18     side, the village from which I took civilians to Djakovica.  I, myself,

19     and another soldier from Sombor, pursuant to an order from

20     Commander Vukovic, because they had already started to come out of their

21     houses.  They were afraid, and they started to come out of their houses.

22     I took them personally.  This is what I assert.  This is pursuant to the

23     commander's command.  I can ask him; you can ask him.  We can confront

24     each other.  He literally told me, These people have to leave.  You have

25     to take them there, and you are responsible to me for their safety.

Page 1472

 1     That's it, and that's what I did.

 2             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't know if it's

 3     time for a break.  I would still have 10 to 15 minutes at the most,

 4     depending on how quickly I will get my answers.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  We can go a little longer because we were late

 6     starting, but would you prefer to have a break now so that you can

 7     collect your thoughts?

 8             We will resume at ten past 6.00.

 9             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10                           --- Recess taken at 5.38 p.m.

11                           [The witness stands down]

12                           --- On resuming at 6.15 p.m.

13                           [Closed session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 1473

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 7             Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

 8             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, and thank

 9     you to the witness for confirming what he said and that was without my

10     question.  This was actually the thrust of my questions.

11        Q.   But now we need to be efficient.  Can you please tell me, at what

12     time did you get information that two of your soldiers were wounded when

13     you were at the position?

14        A.   I don't remember exactly.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Were you able to see the place of the wounding from

16     the command post where you were?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we move into closed session,

20     please, because I need to mention some things.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Private.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 1474











11  Pages 1474-1483 redacted. Private session.















Page 1484

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

16             MR. NEUNER:

17        Q.   I wanted to ask you briefly about the relocation of villagers

18     from places south of Djakovica.  Could you tell me, when you were coming

19     to the doors of these houses, were you in uniform?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And were you armed when you were talking to the people?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   How -- when you told the people to leave the villages, were you

24     informing them that people had a choice, whether to stay or whether to

25     leave, or what exactly did you say?

Page 1485

 1        A.   That they should go towards Djakovica, that they should head for

 2     Djakovica.  I can't describe this.  It wasn't an order, but it wasn't a

 3     request either.  When somebody comes into your yard with a weapon, it's a

 4     very unpleasant situation, both for the person issuing such an order and

 5     the person who has to actually comply with it.  But it wasn't -- they

 6     weren't under threat of weapons to relocate, because for me expulsion or

 7     relocation would be the case where we would come there with weapons and

 8     order them to leave to Albania and not to move just a kilometre or half a

 9     kilometre away to another hamlet.

10             And just another thing, if I may.  At this time there were some

11     parts of the police, and General Djordjevic knows about them, that had

12     been established before the war.  In some instances these people were

13     with us.  And we never forbade these civilians to go back to their homes

14     to take their food, their staples, whatever this was they needed, their

15     clothes, and so on.  They were never prohibited from doing this.  And I

16     just want to stress that these police officers were, for the most part,

17     Albanian, ethnic Albanians, not Serbs.  I just want this to be clear.

18     That unit was established, and it was formed, it was composed, of local

19     Albanians.  And this was not only the case in Djakovica but throughout

20     Kosovo.  I don't know if this was ever mentioned earlier here, but you

21     can find this in state documents.

22        Q.   What I'm interested in is, when you left these villages or

23     hamlets, did you see that persons stayed behind or had these persons left

24     before you?

25        A.   Well, for the most part we left with them, together.  Not

Page 1486

 1     escorting them but going with them together.  Sometimes with them;

 2     sometimes ahead of them.  But we never escorted them.  They left on their

 3     own.  They went -- we told them, and they went on their home.

 4        Q.   Please listen to my questions.  I have a couple of questions, and

 5     I want that you finish tonight.  So my question was, did you see whether

 6     families or persons stayed behind in the village when you escorted people

 7     out there?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   So is it correct to say that the villages were empty, once you

10     left them with your colleagues?

11        A.   You mean the hamlets?  Yes.

12        Q.   Thank you.  I want to move now back to the Korenica area.  You

13     mentioned in relation to Mr. Vuckovic and Mr. Lapadatovic, that - this is

14     page 74 of today's transcript - "fire was from the police.  The police

15     that was in the village somewhere."  Which village were you referring to?

16        A.   I'm thinking of Korenica because I was in the vehicle that was

17     fired at.  I am stating that now.  I stated that before, and I stand by

18     that.

19        Q.   So are you talking about fire which is coming up while you're

20     driving in the ambulance, or are you talking about fire which is directed

21     at the two gentlemen?

22        A.   Neither.  I think that the fire just accidentally came from the

23     fire.  It was -- there was firing in that direction, but it wasn't

24     deliberately firing at the vehicle.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the last part

Page 1487

 1     of his answer.

 2             MR. NEUNER:

 3        Q.   Could you repeat the last part of your answer.

 4        A.   I did not see where these two soldiers were wounded, but I

 5     believe that the vehicle was not shot at deliberately.  The fire was

 6     coming from the village, from Korenica, but at that point in time, from

 7     those first houses where the shooting could possibly come from, there

 8     were no people there.  The people had already left before.

 9        Q.   And with people having left before, you're talking about the

10     inhabitants?  Can you clarify?  Inhabitants of Korenica?

11        A.   From the first houses in Korenica, because logically the houses

12     were already burning by then.  There could have been no fire coming from

13     those houses.

14        Q.   Then my learned colleague mentioned Deva and Guska.  Have you --

15     and people leaving these two places.  Have you, yourself, seen any

16     villagers from these two locations leaving on a particular day in 1999,

17     meaning leaving in masses?

18        A.   No, Your Honours.  I think that -- I am practically sure that

19     Deva and Guska are, as you go along the road from Djakovica towards

20     Junik, you cross the river, and it's on the other side of the hill, but

21     these people had already gone earlier, after a bombing that occurred

22     earlier in that area.

23        Q.   Please listen to my question.  I'm asking you, when the villagers

24     are leaving Deva or Guska, did you, yourself, see it?  That's all I want

25     to know.

Page 1488

 1        A.   No, no.

 2        Q.   Were you in the broader area west of Djakovica, where these two

 3     places are located, at the point in time when the villagers from these

 4     two villages were leaving?

 5        A.   I didn't see them when they left.

 6        Q.   I don't want to know that you didn't see them because you told us

 7     already.  I want to know whether you were in the broader area around

 8     these villages of Deva and Guska when people left.

 9        A.   Yes.  If you believe that that was the place where I was at the

10     time, yes, if that's what you're thinking of.

11        Q.   So how many kilometres, roughly, were you away from people

12     leaving these two villages?

13        A.   Sir, the road --

14        Q.   I just need a short answer, please, because I want to ask you

15     some other questions.

16        A.   The road from Deva and Guska passes through Brekovac.  There is

17     no other road.

18        Q.   You're not listening to my question.  I'm simply asking you how

19     many kilometres were you away when people - what you believe and never

20     saw - left Guska and Deva?

21        A.   They didn't leave that day that we're talking about at all.  This

22     is what I'm repeating all the time.  Something is wrong here.

23        Q.   So, in fact, you don't know when exactly people from Deva and

24     Guska ever left in 1999?

25        A.   Correct.

Page 1489

 1        Q.   I want to come to the NATO bombardments touched upon by my

 2     colleague.  While you were in the command post in Korenica in late April

 3     1999, did NATO planes bomb your command post?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Did NATO planes that day bomb Korenica village?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Did NATO planes that day bombard Meja or Orize?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   If NATO would have bombarded these places - Korenica, Meja, or

10     Orize - that day, at the end of April 1999, would you have known about

11     this, being at the command post?

12        A.   Had there been any bombing that day, I would have known about it.

13     It was close, close.

14        Q.   Thank you.  I want to take you now to the paragraph 47, the last

15     three sentences in this paragraph 47 of your statement.  You talked about

16     JSO or Frenki's men.  I think you gave my learned colleague, you talked

17     about JSO.  Could you, first of all, explain to us what JSO is?

18        A.   JSO is a unit for special operations, and it was formed as --

19     under the auspices of the State Security Service of the Republic of

20     Serbia.  One of the commanders used to be Frenki Simatovic, I think

21     that's his name, and that's how they got their nickname, Frenkijevci.

22     But that's not mean that that is what the unit was called.

23        Q.   Can you tell me briefly in which disposition was the State

24     Security Service of Serbia?  To which ministry did it belong to?

25        A.   The Ministry of the Interior.

Page 1490

 1        Q.   Can you describe a uniform worn by people from the JSO?

 2        A.   No, I cannot do that right now.

 3        Q.   Didn't you say in your statement that you met two gentlemen and

 4     exchanged cigarettes, juice, whatever, so you saw them?

 5        A.   Yes, yes, but they were wearing the hats.  They said -- they told

 6     me they were from the JSO, and they had the insignia of the JSO on them.

 7     But if that is recognition, then --

 8        Q.   Let's go for the hat.  Can you describe the hat?

 9        A.   Camouflage hat.  I don't know.  Perhaps you can see it on some

10     photograph or other -- the photograph, I think it's on photograph number

11     5.

12        Q.   I don't want you to mention any numbers.  I want you, first of

13     all, to tell me what colour the hat has, what camouflage colour.

14        A.   It's more yellow than -- sir, I don't know.  It's been ten years

15     since then.  How can I remember?  I don't know.  I have a uniform like

16     that at home, so I could, you know, in a way.  But right now I just

17     cannot.

18        Q.   Then you mentioned you saw insignia, these men wearing insignia,

19     of the JSO.  Can you describe how the insignia looked like?

20        A.   Red, and then in the circle it says "JSO," and then it's

21     something like that on the shoulder.  But now, sir, at that point in

22     time, if you think that I was looking at who was wearing what sort of

23     insignia, I mean --

24        Q.   You were answering my question.  We need to be brief.

25             MR. NEUNER:  Can we have Exhibit 325 on the screen, please.

Page 1491

 1     Sorry, 327.  This is the first page, and we could also show -- yeah, you

 2     see the second page.

 3        Q.   Is there any insignia here, insignia from the JSO?

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please speak into the

 5     microphone.

 6             MR. NEUNER:

 7        Q.   Can you please speak into the microphone.

 8        A.   I think that it's not here.

 9        Q.   Okay.  I want to come to my last topic.  Sorry, I have one

10     further small topic.  The shooting at the yard near the crossroad, you

11     were asked by my learned colleague also about the groups being led there.

12     Can you tell me, you explained to us, Albanians in three to four groups,

13     were being led there.  Did you ever see from this yard Albanians coming

14     back to the road, walking from the yard back to the road?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   My last topic is criminal reports.  What you had observed that

17     day, and you were asked by my learned colleague about the filing of

18     criminal reports.  You, yourself, have you ever filed a criminal report,

19     while you were in the military police, in the 2nd Battalion of the 549th

20     Brigade?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Do you know the persons in the military police of that 2nd

23     Battalion who would file such criminal reports?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   If you are learning about events which may qualify to be put into

Page 1492

 1     a criminal report, what would you do?

 2        A.   I would inform my superior officer.  There would be an on-site

 3     investigation, and a report would be submitted, if the perpetrator was

 4     known.

 5        Q.   And you mentioned the gentlemen who were in the 2nd Battalion of

 6     the military police -- sorry, who were in the military police, in the 2nd

 7     Battalion.  How would they be involved in that process you're describing?

 8        A.   Since we didn't have -- they would write the report.  They would

 9     write the report after we notified them.  We didn't have a typewriter, a

10     computer.  There was no electricity.  And it was a question if anybody at

11     our end was able to type.

12        Q.   So would you before or after an on-site inspection involve the

13     gentlemen who were writing the criminal reports?

14        A.   First I would inform the gentlemen.  They would call criminal

15     investigation technicians to conduct an on-scene investigation.  An

16     official report would be drafted, and then the procedure would proceed

17     pursuant to the law.

18        Q.   If you learned about an incident which could be described as a

19     murder or the war crime of a murder but which has not been performed by

20     soldiers but by other units, whom would you inform about this incident?

21        A.   My superior officer again, of course, because to be clear, in our

22     sector where we were, we were able to arrest someone.  It was known

23     exactly how far each group's jurisdiction lay, so we had the authority to

24     arrest people in our own sector.  If we knew the perpetrator, he would be

25     arrested and then the procedure would continue according to the usual

Page 1493

 1     custom.

 2        Q.   So in order to arrest the suspects or possible perpetrators, who

 3     would carry out, in your 2nd Battalion in the 549th Brigade, such an

 4     arrest?

 5        A.   The military police, of course.

 6        Q.   Would your troop, the squad - and please don't mention names;

 7     we're in open session - the squad of 12 persons to which you belonged,

 8     would this squad also be in a position to carry out arrests?

 9        A.   If it was there, yes.  Whoever was there from the military police

10     platoon, they would be going to make the arrest, regardless of who was in

11     question.  When we were arresting Major Radic, the entire platoon of the

12     military police went, and we arrested him with all the people who were

13     around him and all the documents, the vehicles, all the basic equipment.

14     That is how the arrest was made, and then he was taken into custody.

15        Q.   Sir, in how many arrests did you participate in 1999, in Kosovo?

16        A.   I cannot remember.  Major Radic, Mincic, too.  I don't know; I

17     cannot remember, but seven or eight, maybe more.  I cannot remember

18     exactly, but there were arrests.

19        Q.   Did you also ever arrest a person who was not in the -- in your

20     own unit but was in another force separate from the 549th Brigade?

21        A.   No, because in our sector there were no other units, just ours.

22     The part that -- at least in the part that I was, no other units were

23     stationed there.  Actually, it's possible, but I don't think that this

24     was recorded.  Some soldiers from the anti-aircraft squad got drunk, and

25     we arrested them.  One of them is working together with me at the moment.

Page 1494

 1     I just remembered that.  I mean, there were things like that, active-duty

 2     soldiers who got drunk, but they were not creating any disorder.  They

 3     were not firing, but we arrested them because of the discipline.

 4        Q.   I'm very direct.  Did you ever arrest a person from the civilian

 5     police in 1999, in Kosovo?

 6        A.   No, no, no.

 7        Q.   Could you have done so, if this person was involved in serious

 8     crime?

 9        A.   In our territory or area, yes, of course we could have.

10        Q.   If we go back to the day where -- in April 1999, where your

11     command post was east of Korenica, how far was the AOR of your

12     battalion's command post, the AOR which you were in?

13        A.   From where?  How far from where?  You said how far was your area

14     of responsibility?  I didn't quite understand the question.

15        Q.   I can have a map.

16             MR. NEUNER:  We have 615.3, I believe, or 4.  Yes, this is the 65

17     ter number.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you thinking of the command

19     post or -- and the check-point where the policemen were?

20             MR. NEUNER:

21        Q.   In a way, yes.  Would you consider that the check-point and the

22     yard where the policemen were --

23        A.   120 metres at the most.

24        Q.   And was this check-point and the yard within the AOR for which

25     your commander was responsible that day?

Page 1495

 1        A.   I cannot say because, Your Honours, our battalion, its AOR ended

 2     on the river, on the left bank of the river.  The Defence counsel said

 3     that the Deva and Guska villages were there.  That was part of our area

 4     of responsibility.  As for the other part that continued from there, I

 5     don't know.  I think it was the AOR of some other unit.

 6        Q.   But the very specific question is:  The yard where the shooting

 7     occurred, would you consider this yard to be within your AOR on that day,

 8     in late April 1999?

 9        A.   I think that it was not.

10        Q.   But didn't the logbook entry you and my colleague -- sorry, my

11     colleague asked you to look at, define that from Korenica, above the --

12     through the cemetery and the crossroad up to Kodra e Kikes was a line

13     held by your forces?

14        A.   Could you zoom in a little bit on the map, please, or zoom out,

15     please.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

17             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, I have an

18     objection.  From what I read in the diary, the house and the place that

19     my learned friend is questioning the witness about is not mentioned

20     anywhere, or that it's part of the AOR.  I mean, it does not arise from

21     that document.

22             MR. NEUNER:  I thought I read it out, but I think I've made the

23     point clear.

24        Q.   I've just one question for you, Witness.  Did you discuss that

25     day with your commander about pulling the remaining 11 men from your

Page 1496

 1     military police squad, which were in this brook, together with you and

 2     other forces to walk into that yard and try to arrest the policemen

 3     there?

 4        A.   First, the policemen left before we withdrew, almost an hour

 5     before we did.  Had we tried to arrest them, they would be dead all over

 6     the place.  (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10     arrest and would not have permitted this from happening.  But I think

11     this was not in our area of responsibility, so he did not dare do that.

12     I think that on this side of the river, on this side of the river where

13     indicating right now, such an order would have been there.  This side,

14     I'm not sure that it is part of our area of responsibility, and too many

15     dead would have occurred.  I mean, we would have killed each other, the

16     policemen and us, had there been any attempt at arrest.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.  That must be the end.  We

18     have run seriously over time.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE PARKER:  You'll be pleased to know, sir, that we have

21     managed to finish the questioning of you tonight.  You are free to leave.

22     The court officers will show you out after we have left here.  Thank you

23     for your assistance and for coming to The Hague.

24             We now must adjourn and resume tomorrow at 9.00 in the morning, I

25     believe in Courtroom II.  I would like to thank the interpreters and

Page 1497

 1     other staff who've stayed back nearly an extra quarter of an hour to

 2     enable us to finish this witness.

 3             We'll adjourn now.

 4                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.13 p.m.,

 5                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 26th day of

 6                           February, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.