1 Friday, 27 February 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. We should go into closed
7 [Closed session]
11 Page 1574 redacted. Closed session.
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
10 MR. NEUNER: Could I please have exhibit -- sorry, 65 ter 2365
11 displayed to this witness.
12 Q. Witness, do you remember giving a statement in September 2001 to
13 the Office of the Prosecutor?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And in the Milutinovic case, you made some adjustments to it.
16 MR. NEUNER: Could I just have a look at page 2 of this statement
18 Q. And I'm especially referring to your university degree, which is
19 mentioned there. It is mentioned here that you obtained a degree as a
20 physical training teacher. Did you ever obtain that degree?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Sorry. Then I was referring to -- it says here in the statement
23 that you had a degree from the university in Sarajevo. Did you obtain
24 that degree?
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 Q. So you don't want to have any changes to your statement regarding
2 your degree?
3 A. No.
4 Q. I'm asking this because you told us in 2006 that you got in
5 trouble with not obtaining a degree or there were some allegations about
6 this. Could you just explain, please.
7 A. Yes. In 1991, I was at the physical training faculty in
9 of Bosnia
10 side, in the Serb area, pursuant to some decision by the Serbian
11 university, a decision was passed whereby all the students who were at
12 that faculty were to be proclaimed as having graduated from the faculty.
13 So all the people attending, all the students attending who had not yet
14 graduated but who were in their final stages, were recognised their
15 graduate status. So I did not actually sit for my finals, but the
16 Serbian university, in view of the events and circumstances, decided to
17 grant a degree to all the students, the senior students at the faculty,
18 so that is how I came to receive my degree.
19 MR. NEUNER: With this explanation, could I ask that exhibit --
20 sorry, 65 ter 2365 is being tendered, under seal, please.
21 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 2365 shall be received as
23 Exhibit P340. Thank you, Your Honours.
24 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, we have also public redacted version
25 2439, which we would seek to tender as well.
1 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received as a distinct part of that
2 same exhibit.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the public redacted version
4 65 ter 2439 shall be received as Exhibit P241. Thank you, Your Honours.
5 MR. NEUNER:
6 Q. And is it correct that you also testified twice already in the
7 Milosevic case and in the Milutinovic case about the incidents in and
8 around Mala Krusa in 1999?
9 A. Yes.
10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
11 JUDGE PARKER: The transcript and the recording has wrongly
12 identified the redacted -- or the other number, and the court officer
13 will now correct that.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour. The redacted version of
15 the statement 65 ter 2365 shall be received as Exhibit P340, while the
16 public redacted version shall be received as Exhibit P340-A. Thank you,
17 Your Honours.
18 MR. NEUNER: The public redacted version, just for the record,
19 has the 65 ter number 2439.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
21 MR. NEUNER:
22 Q. And Witness, do you agree that both of your testimonies in the
23 Milosevic and the Milutinovic case, together with your corrected
24 statement, are true and accurate and would form the evidence which you
25 would give if you would testify today orally?
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. NEUNER: For the record, Your Honours, I would seek to
3 tender, therefore, 65 ter 2366 under seal. That's the transcript in the
4 Milosevic case, as well as 2527. That's the public version of the
5 Milosevic transcript containing a few redactions, as well as
6 65 ter number 5164, which is the Mos [Realtime transcript read in error,
7 "mass"] transcript.
8 JUDGE PARKER: I'm not sure what you mean by that last reference.
9 Are you -- these three versions of the Milosevic transcript?
10 MR. NEUNER: I may have been ambiguous. The first two 65 ter
11 numbers 2366 is the unredacted Milosevic transcript, which I would seek
12 to tender; and the two 65 ter number 2527 is a partially redacted
13 version, as far as I understand, so it's for the public; while the last
14 number, 65 ter 5164, is the Milutinovic transcript, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Sorry, that is the thing that was confusing me.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.
17 JUDGE PARKER: The Milosevic [microphone not activated] ...
18 unredacted will be received as an exhibit.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P341. Thank
20 you, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE PARKER: The redacted version of the same transcript will
22 be received as a sub-exhibit with that same number.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P341-A. Thank
24 you, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE PARKER: The transcript in the Milutinovic trial will be
1 received as an exhibit.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P342. Thank
3 you, Your Honours.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 MR. NEUNER: I can read out the 65 ter number of the Mos
6 transcript again. It's 5164, and we would seek also - I forgot to
7 mention that - to tender this --
8 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sorry. That is being translated or recorded
9 as Mos -- [microphone not activated] -- transcript?
10 MR. NEUNER: I don't understand, Your Honours, mass?
11 JUDGE PARKER: That's what's coming up in line 25, and it's what
12 came up earlier when I said I didn't quite understand what you were
14 MR. NEUNER: The 65 ter number of the Mos transcript, M-o-s, I
15 meant the Milutinovic et all case, Your Honours. I apologise.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Perhaps you'd better use Milutinovic.
17 MR. NEUNER: Yes. And we would seek to tender this under seal
18 because it contains closed and private session testimony.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Well, then the Milutinovic transcript will be
20 received under seal, and that is Exhibit P342.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The Milutinovic transcript is
22 received under seal as Exhibit P342. Thank you, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Is it not the case that the Milosevic transcript,
24 the unredacted version, should be under seal?
25 MR. NEUNER: I believe this is what we have done earlier this
1 morning. We tendered one version under seal and the second version
2 openly. I remember that Your Honours have --
3 JUDGE PARKER: We gave a separate number to the redacted, but
4 nobody mentioned seal for the main version, so Exhibit P341 will also be
5 under seal.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Exhibit P341 shall be received
7 under seal. Thank you, Your Honours.
8 MR. NEUNER: I would read out a summary of the witness testimony.
9 The witness was a member of the 7th Company of the
10 23rd PJP Detachment, a unit based in Vojvodina, Serbia
11 witness's unit was deployed to Kosovo for six times, and in 1999, for
12 five combat operations.
13 In late March 1999, the witness's company was deployed in and
14 around Mala Krusa during a mop-up operation. He describes the MUP and VJ
15 units involved in that operation.
16 The witness's unit handed over six Albanian men who were
17 suspected of being KLA members to the MUP. He saw these men being
18 marched to a nearby house from which he later heard gun-fire. He also
19 handed over three men. Later, he saw the corpses of some men in the
20 nearby house, which was also set on fire later.
21 In Mala Krusa, he saw about 5.000 civilians moving through the
22 village out of the combat area. These civilians were moved southwards
24 He testified to be unaware about the massacre that took place in
25 Mala Krusa on the 26th of March, 1999. He says to have heard about it
1 later only after NATO troops entered Kosovo.
2 Could we move into private session, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
4 [Private session]
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
21 MR. NEUNER:
22 Q. To whom did Mr. Borisa Josipovic report to in 1999?
23 A. His immediate superior was the command of the PJP,
24 Mr. Obrad Stevanovic.
25 Q. And to whom did Mr. Obrad Stevanovic report to in 1999?
1 A. Mr. Obrad Stevanovic was the immediate superior or, rather, the
2 chief of the public security sector was his superior,
3 Mr. Vlastimir Djordjevic.
4 Q. On page 22 of your statement, you mention that the PJP units are
5 intervention units. Could you explain what you mean by intervention
7 A. Well, it's a very broad concept. Then I have to begin with 1991
8 or 1992 when they were first established and then go on from there.
9 Q. Let's start it from there. What is -- what do intervention units
11 A. Well, I can't explain it just like that. In peace -- I can tell
12 you in peace-time depending on the situation and so on and so forth, but
13 in general terms, to prevent large-scale unrest and disturbance; and if
14 there are any terrorist attacks, then they step in or for floods, fires,
15 and the like.
16 Q. Is it fair to say that -- I withdraw that, sorry. Is it fair to
17 say that PJP units would be manoeuvre units as well?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What are manoeuvre units?
20 A. If you're talking about 1999, then we worked to prevent Albanian
21 terrorists, or, rather, we fought against the Albanian terrorists.
22 Q. And what is -- can you explain the term "manoeuvre"? What is
23 specific about a unit who is described as a manoeuvre unit?
24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
25 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Objection. I think that the
1 witness has explained what a manoeuvre unit is in response to the
2 previous question and what the tasks of these units were and what they
3 did, not to have to go and quote him on his answer to the previous
4 questions. Line 30, lines 29 and 30, in fact. It's already been
6 JUDGE PARKER: I don't understand the question to have been
7 specific to manoeuvre, so please carry on, Mr. Neuner.
8 MR. NEUNER:
9 Q. Could you explain, please, how a patch of the PJP looks like.
10 A. Well, if you give me a picture, I can show you which one it is.
11 We had special uniforms and special insignia and patches and special
12 vests. The patches were on the left and right shoulder.
13 MR. NEUNER: Could we have Exhibit 327 shown to this witness,
15 Q. Witness, you please, if it comes up and if you see the patch worn
16 by PJP, just please state the number for the record.
17 A. It's not here.
18 MR. NEUNER: I asked in the instructions that I submitted to the
19 usher that, please, both pages would be displayed. We have currently
20 only one here. Yes.
21 I will come to the right exhibit later. This is obviously the
22 wrong number here.
23 JUDGE PARKER: This, I think, is half of the exhibit number that
24 you gave but shown on the screens twice.
25 MR. NEUNER: Yes. Maybe we can see the second page. I see now
1 it's twice the same page. Yes.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Number 13.
3 MR. NEUNER:
4 Q. Thank you. I want to talk now about the deployments of your unit
5 from Vojvodina to Kosovo. Can you please tell me, how many kilometres is
6 the distance from Subotica
7 A. Around 600 kilometres, more or less, perhaps 550.
8 MR. NEUNER: Could we have 65 ter 00044 being displayed to this
9 witness now.
10 Q. And I mentioned already the combat operations in which you
11 participated in 1998 and 1999. I would now - this is a map of Kosovo -
12 simply - and I go here from page 5 of your witness statement - I would
13 simply ask you to encircle the locations, which I take from your witness
14 statements, where you were stationed or where you were performing combat.
15 We just would need here one picture on the screen, not two. The usher
16 will hand you a pen in a second. The first combat operation you
17 mentioned in your statement, page 5, is on the road between Klina and
18 Srbica. Could you just encircle once the map is coming up where that
19 location is, please.
20 MR. NEUNER: If we could enlarge the map as much as possible. We
21 don't need -- even a little bit further. We just need to focus -- yes, a
22 little bit, even, more. Yes, thank you.
23 Could the usher please hand the witness a pen.
24 Q. Could you encircle where the road between Klina and Srbica is.
25 A. I can only approximate. I don't think I can locate it precisely.
1 Q. Perfect. Good enough. Please place a number 1 next to the
2 circle you drew.
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. Can you confirm that the first two operations in 1999 related to
5 that road?
6 A. What I marked refers to 1998.
7 Q. And the first two combat operations in which you participated in
8 Kosovo, right? That was my question.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. The third operation - and you mentioned that, also, in your
11 statement; I'm just going by your statement - was to liberate the road
12 between Pec and Decani. Could you encircle that, please.
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. Mark a 2 next to the place, please. Thank you. And the third is
15 the attacks on Jablanica. Please encircle Jablanica if you find it.
16 A. It's not on the map, but I can try to locate it, more or less.
17 Q. Can you mark a three next to it. The next one is in the area of
18 Prelip and Junik up to Baboloc. You were performing combat there.
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. Can you mark a 4 next to this place. And the last operation in
21 1998 was in the Junik and the nearby mountains. Could you encircle that,
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. And you marked a 5 next to this.
25 MR. NEUNER: I would seek to tender this, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the marked portion of 65 ter 00044
3 shall be received as Exhibit P343. Thank you, Your Honours.
4 MR. NEUNER: I would now move to 1999 and would need the same
5 map, not annotated again, please, for this witness in the same zoomed-in
6 version, please.
7 Q. So moving on to 1999, I have here the first operation is the
8 blockade of Mala Krusa-Zrze-Orahovac road. Please encircle the area,
9 roughly, and mark a 1 next to it.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. The second operation is to move towards Milanovici and take it.
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. You just marked a 2 next to it. The third one is to liberate the
14 road, Pec-Kula-Rozaj.
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. Can you mark a 3 next to it. Yes. The next one, the fourth one
17 is to be in the area of Supot Lapodnica [phoen], lake Radonjic
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. You marked a 4 next to this place. And the last one I have here
20 is Budakovo in the Suva Reka area. Could you mark a 5 next to this,
22 A. [Marks]
23 MR. NEUNER: I would seek to tender this map relating to
24 operations witness participated in 1999, 65 ter 0044 [sic].
25 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the second marked portion of 65 ter
2 00044 shall be received as Exhibit P3444. Thank you, Your Honours.
3 MR. NEUNER:
4 Q. We had just spoken about number 5 on this map, the operation in
5 Budakovo area. Do you know when roughly this Budakovo operation was
6 completed in 1999, which month?
7 A. That operation was completed around the 10th of May, 1999. The
8 9th or the 10th; I cannot tell you precisely. In any case, it was in the
9 first half of May.
10 Q. And was it a success or failure for the 23rd PJP?
11 A. We reached our goal. Therefore, yes.
12 Q. I want to show you now 65 ter 1993. When it will come up in a
13 second, we will see that this relates to minutes of MUP staff briefing on
14 the 11th of May, 1999, a day after or two days after you said the
15 operation Budakovo was completed. And I only want to focus here on what
16 the commander of your unit Bosko Josipovic, you mentioned his name
17 earlier, participated in this meeting. If we can go to number 3 in these
18 minutes. In English, it is page 3.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
20 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was notified
21 earlier that this exhibit was going to be used. Before the witness
22 starts answering the Prosecutor's questions, I wanted to say that I
23 believe this has nothing to do with this exhibit, and based on what I
24 could see before, he can only read it for us, much the way we all could.
25 I do not disagree with using this exhibit, but I object to it being
1 tendered since I believe the witness has nothing to do with this
2 document. There is no relation between them.
3 JUDGE PARKER: We'll explore that as the witness speaks about it.
4 Thank you, Mr. Djurdjic.
5 MR. NEUNER: In B/C/S, we need to go to page 2, and we need to
6 scroll to the bottom, the last two lines.
7 Q. As I mentioned --
8 MR. NEUNER: Sorry, that is not correct. I need to go, then, to
9 number 3 in B/C/S, please, page 3 in B/C/S. Can we scroll up a little
10 bit, please. Actually, this is the confusion. We have again twice the
11 same English version here on the screen. I was referring to the B/C/S
12 version. This is the second time this has happened this morning,
13 Your Honours. We would need on the right-hand side of the screen page 2
14 of the B/C/S version - yes, thank you - and I said we need to go to the
15 bottom. I'm sorry. We need to go -- this is page 3 here --
16 JUDGE PARKER: You want one page earlier in the B/C/S.
17 MR. NEUNER: Yeah, I said page 2. I said page 2 in the B/C/S.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Doesn't matter what you said. It's what we now
19 need to find the right thing.
20 MR. NEUNER:
21 Q. Yes, we see here the commander of the 23rd PJP makes a comment.
22 And you were earlier telling us about Budakovo. Could you just read the
23 last two lines, please.
24 MR. NEUNER: And in the English version, we need to scroll up a
25 little bit so that Your Honours can read it. Yes, thank you. The first
1 two hyphens I'm interested in.
2 Q. Have you read it?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you comment upon what your commander is reporting here at
5 this meeting? Is this a true and accurate reflection since you
6 participated in this operation?
7 A. Yes, this is what happened, at first with some difficulty, but
8 then later on the operation was successfully completed.
9 Q. And why is your commander reporting this here at the meeting?
10 A. Because it was standard procedure to do so.
11 MR. NEUNER: With this explanation, I would seek to tender this
12 document, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE PARKER: You maintain your objection, Mr. Djurdjic?
14 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I do. I believe the witness
15 confirmed that he had nothing to do with the document.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE PARKER: The minutes will be received.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 1993 shall be received as
19 Exhibit P345. Thank you, Your Honours.
20 MR. NEUNER: I just want to state for the record, I hope that the
21 objection time doesn't count for my examination time.
22 JUDGE PARKER: The objection time does. Everything counts for
23 time, Mr. Neuner, but as you know we do not have a stopwatch. Keep
25 MR. NEUNER: Thank you, Your Honours.
1 I would now ask that exhibit -- sorry, 65 ter 4093 is being
2 displayed to the witness.
3 Q. We see here it's from the 15th of July, 1998, and my first
4 question is: Who had the power to send PJP units to Kosovo?
5 A. The PJP units were sent by the chief of the PJP, Mr. Obradovic,
6 in principle. However, that was probably agreed upon at higher levels.
7 Q. If we look here at the authority issuing the document, we see
8 it's the Public Security Department of MUP Serbia. Could you explain who
9 headed that department in 1999?
10 A. Mr. Vlastimir Djordjevic.
11 Q. And we see among the addresses here, it says to the SUP, and one
12 of the SUPs is mentioned here is Subotica
13 SUPs -- or what he says, please.
14 A. It is a secretariat of the internal affairs -- of internal
15 affairs in that town.
16 Q. And which PJP unit was coming from that town, if any?
17 A. From the 23rd Detachment, the 7th Company.
18 Q. We see here, and I'm just reading out a portion:
19 "In order to assist the secretariats of internal affairs in
20 carrying out special tasks ... mobilise and dispatch members of the
21 23rd ... Detachment of the PJP ..."
22 And the second hyphen reads:
23 "To Djakovica - 500 members ..."
24 Can you explain what that means?
25 A. I can see here that from our town, only two platoons were sent,
1 which means that some of our men had already gone down there and that
2 this was a regular shift rotation. Throughout 1998, we kept going back
3 and forth. These two were probably on leave and then were being sent
4 back, or they were supposed to replace the men in the field. I cannot
5 recall precisely what the situation was at that moment.
6 MR. NEUNER: Could I ask with this explanation to tender this
7 document, 4093.
8 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
9 MR. NEUNER: I'm informed -- I'm sorry. It is tendered as 131,
10 as Exhibit 131. I don't want to confuse the record here. Yes, I got
12 Q. I want to show you the next document, 65 ter 4132. So who had
13 the power to rotate PJP units in Kosovo, Witness?
14 A. As I have already said, the same person who planned operations.
15 That person was in charge of rotation, as well, that is to say the
16 Command of the PJP and the senior levels.
17 Q. We see the document is dated from the 4th of November, 1999, and
18 I'm just reading out a portion here, starting at the second paragraph:
19 "The engagement of members of the --"
20 MR. NEUNER: I'm sorry to say, but I'm just informed by my case
21 manager that this document is already tendered as well. Therefore, I
22 see, also, my learned colleague's on his feet. I would, therefore, just
23 withdraw the document. I apologise for having it introduced, in the sake
24 of time, to save -- in the interest of time.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Can you tell us the present exhibit number?
1 MR. NEUNER: Is 136, Your Honours.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. I confirm that the 65 ter 4132
3 is already P136. Thank you, Your Honours.
4 MR. NEUNER: This document now I want to have displayed in any
5 case, 40 --
6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
7 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that the
8 parties agreed mutually to have this exhibit admitted in the pre-trial
9 phase. What is unclear to me is whether my colleague intends to present
10 this now or not. Another thing: The date stated, the date should be the
11 4th of February, 1999, instead of November. That should be clear.
12 JUDGE PARKER: As I understand it, this is an exhibit already in
13 the trial, having been admitted pre-trial by order, and Mr. Djurdjic is
14 correct about the date, Mr. Neuner.
15 MR. NEUNER: I believe I've introduced it as 4 February 1999, but
16 I've moved on anyway, Your Honours. In the interest of time, I wanted to
17 have 4095, 65 ter 4095 being displayed.
18 Could the document in the English version be enlarged a little
19 bit, and in the B/C/S version, I know that the handwriting is partially
20 cut off. We would need the upper part of the document including the
21 handwriting, please. It could still be enlarged a little bit. I just
22 need the handwriting in the upper part of that. Yes. Thank you.
23 Q. My first question is, the sender here is the RJB in Belgrade
24 Could you explain to Their Honours what the RJB is.
25 A. The Public Security Sector.
1 Q. Who headed the Public Security Sector in 1999, 21 March, when
2 this document was issued?
3 A. Mr. Vlastimir Djordjevic did.
4 Q. We see here, and I'm just reading the first line, that -- the
5 first main paragraph:
6 "In order to carry out ... tasks ... dispatch members of the ...
7 23rd ... PJP detachment ..."
8 And the second hyphen in the text below reads:
9 "To the Djakovica SUP ..." and then certain companies are listed,
10 and the name "Subotica
11 Could you explain me what is being ordered here?
12 A. This is standard procedure upon arrival of a dispatch, whereby it
13 is stated that a PJP unit is going to be engaged, stating where it should
14 go and what the expected time of arrival is, as well as what the
15 equipment that we'll need and the length of stay. This was a standard
16 form of dispatch.
17 Q. I want to ask you now about the handwriting on the upper
18 right-hand part in the original. Here, a couple of handwritings; could
19 you tell me first, what does the handwriting on the upper left mean, the
20 one word there?
21 A. "Zinajic," and then "Radosavljevic," and "Zec." As for the fourth
22 remark, I can't say whose handwriting or signature it is. In any case,
23 the chief of secretariat had the officers engaged in this task to sign
24 this. They signed the document as received.
25 Q. The chief of which secretariat are you referring to here?
1 A. The secretariat in our town, and it is Mr. Radovan Kinezovic
3 Q. And the name of the town, please?
4 A. Subotica
5 Q. Could you tell me, what was the position of Mr. Zinajic in 1999
6 March in the SUP
7 A. He was the chief of police.
8 Q. And the position of Mr. Zec, please, in that SUP?
9 A. Zec was the chief of operations.
10 Q. And can you give us the position of Mr. Radosavljevic?
11 A. Mr. Radosavljevic was with the PJP. He was in charge of all the
12 operational aspects that had to be taken care of in our town, that is to
13 say, food, equipment, et cetera.
14 Q. I would seek to tender this document now and ask you to remember
15 the dispatch number, which is 587, and the date, which is 21 March 1999.
16 MR. NEUNER: Can I seek to tender it.
17 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 4095 shall be received as
19 Exhibit P346. Thank you, Your Honours.
20 MR. NEUNER: The next document is 4207, dating 22 March 1999.
21 Q. First of all, if you look at the reference line, below the name
23 21 March. Do you see that?
24 A. I do.
25 Q. And we see the addressee of that document is the police
1 administration. Where is this police administration located?
2 A. In Belgrade
3 Q. And the second addressee is the PJP Command. Where is that PJP
4 command located, and who headed it?
5 A. The command of the PJP was located in Belgrade, and it was headed
6 by Mr. Obrad Stevanovic.
7 Q. Can you have a short look at it and just tell me what the purpose
8 of that document is.
9 A. Standard procedure. In relation to the previous one, the SUP of
10 Zrenjanin was reporting on what had been, what had been done on the basis
11 of the previous document.
12 Q. So it's a reporting back related to the previous dispatch number
13 587, is it?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. NEUNER: I would seek to tender this document, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 4207 is received as
18 Exhibit P347. Thank you, Your Honours.
19 MR. NEUNER: The next document we displayed is a map, 615.06.
20 Q. You mentioned at length in your statement, Witness, that you went
21 on the 25th of March, 1999
22 in the morning where you met a VJ officer. Do you remember this? That's
23 page 8 of your statement.
24 A. Yes, I do remember that.
25 Q. What was the purpose of meeting that VJ officer at the gas
1 station in Zrze?
2 A. On the 25th in the morning at about 3.00 a.m., they woke us up to
3 go on assignment. We set off at 5.00 a.m. in front of the SUP at
4 Djakovica where the commander of the 23rd Divison, Mr. Borisa Josipovic,
5 sent us with maps and designated operations and told us that we'd be met
6 at the gas pump by a military man who would take us to the area where a
7 company was assigned to set up a blockade.
8 Q. Can you just take the pen and just draw a dot for Your Honours'
9 attention, a dot simply where Zrze is where you met this man, the VJ
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. Thank you. I'm now interested whether your -- where your company
13 was stationed on that day. Where was the line of deployment of the
14 7th Company of the 23rd PJP? Could you draw the line of deployment on
15 the 25th of March, 1999?
16 A. I have to explain this. Our area of responsibility was from
17 Rogovo to Mala Krusa, but from the road to Rogovo, we had nobody there
18 because it was an open space and there was no need to deploy anyone
19 there, so we had the security zone, when we -- which was our area of
20 responsibility, and then we had the place we were actually located in,
21 and that was here.
22 Q. Could you tell me whether north of Zrze also some troops were
23 stationed, and which troops, or in and around Zrze.
24 A. There was no north. It was just up, down, left, right, so I
25 can't really tell you that way. I don't know where north is or where
1 south is. Could you put the question differently?
2 Q. I'm interested in the road where you drew already here your --
3 where your unit was deployed. First of all, mark a 1 next to this, and
4 my only question, was along that road also other parts of your unit
5 stationed, and if, so where?
6 A. They were stationed -- well, if we're talking about the 23rd
7 Divison or a detachment, are we? Are we talking about the
8 23rd Detachment? All right, then they were here: Bela Crvka towards
10 Q. All right. First of all, can you mark where your unit, the
11 7th Company was located, can you mark a 1 next to this, please?
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. And the second line where you drew, do you know which company was
14 located there, and once you have given us the answer, could you draw a 2
15 next to the line.
16 A. Zrenjanin, Sombor, and whether anybody else took part, I'm not
17 quite sure.
18 Q. Thank you, and these are the companies from these towns, yes?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You mentioned the open space on the road where your unit was
21 deployed. Could you tell me who was in between Zrze and the most leftern
22 [sic] part of the road which was held by your unit? Was there any unit
23 in between deployed, and if so, which unit?
24 A. Yes, the local police and the tank belonging to the Army of
1 next were held by the police, the police station, in fact, or the local
3 Q. Could you mark at the line you just drew a number 3 indicating
4 where the local police was.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. And to the right, the lower right of Mala Krusa where the end of
7 your unit's deployment was, who was being deployed there? Which unit?
8 A. The local policemen were at positions next to us, holding the
9 positions for the elevations above us, three tanks of the
10 Army of Yugoslavia
11 Q. Could you first of all mark a number 4 where you believe that the
12 local police was.
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. And a number 5 where the Nis PJP was deployed.
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. And the number 6 where the tanks were.
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. And you mentioned in the Zrze area there was a tank. Could you
19 indicate again where the tank there was and mark a 7 next to it.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. Can you tell me, within this disposition, the village of
22 Mala Krusa, which unit had the village of Mala Krusa in its AOR
23 25th of March and on the following days?
24 A. It depends how you look at it. We only set up the blockade line.
25 We didn't enter any settlements. Now, the area of responsibility was
1 ours, that's true, but for the blockade of the road. So we didn't have
2 any troops there. We didn't, that is.
3 Q. And with "we," which unit are you referring to? The 7th Company?
4 Can you just clarify?
5 A. Yes, the 7th Company. I'm talking about us, so when I say "we,"
6 I mean the 7th Company.
7 Q. And we see here that roughly from three sides are troops
8 stationed in the area. What was the purpose of this operation? Can you
9 explain to Your Honours?
10 A. The purpose of this operation was that the terrorists who were in
11 this large area, they kept cutting across the road, and it was our aim to
12 separate the terrorists from -- to push them back towards this settlement
13 here - I've indicated that on the map - for the civilian population to be
14 pulled out from one side and to push them back towards the other, towards
15 a sector where we would be able from different sides to surround them.
16 And operations of this kind were underway all the time, in 1998 and in
18 Q. You have just encircled here the village of Milanovici
19 mark a number 7 next to this.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Eight.
21 MR. NEUNER:
22 Q. Eight.
23 A. Number 8.
24 Q. Thank you. And this is, just for explanation, you explained to
25 us where all the operations were taking place. That's the follow-up
1 operation after this operation that your unit participated in an attack
2 on Milanovici; right?
3 A. I didn't understand your question. I said that all the
4 operations that we waged, both in 1998 and in 1999, were conducted in the
5 same way. We set up a blockade first --
6 Q. Just listen to my question. What I wanted to get from you is
7 after you were completed with your operation in this -- along this road
8 here where you laid out the position of your troops. My question was,
9 and you said you were pushing people to -- you were pushing terrorists
10 towards that location which you have encircled as number 8. My question
11 was whether you were indeed later on with your unit moving towards what
12 you encircled as number 8.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic?
14 Carry on.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 MR. NEUNER:
17 Q. Can you now tell me, where was this civilian population moving
18 out of that area?
19 A. On the second or third day after the operation had begun, the
20 civilian population - well, this is my assumption - they wandered around
21 in the area, but on the second or third day, they began to leave the
22 settlement and move towards the main road, come up on to the main road.
23 Q. And can you draw us with an arrow the direction of the movement
24 of the civilian population.
25 A. They were coming out of here, from here, and here, and were
1 moving towards Prizren.
2 Q. Can you mark next to all three arrows you drew a number 9,
4 A. [Marks]
5 MR. NEUNER: I would tender this document, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the marked portion of document
8 number 615.06 shall be given Exhibit P348. Thank you, Your Honours.
9 MR. NEUNER:
10 Q. Is it correct that you assisted the Office of the Prosecutor in
11 producing a more detailed map of that operation on a computer?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. If I would show you the map, would you be in a position to
14 recognise it?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. NEUNER: Could we have 65 ter 2373 being displayed.
17 Q. Is this the map that you assisted the OTP with?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. NEUNER: Could I, for Your Honours's information, seek to
20 tender this document as well. It's a more detailed depiction of what the
21 witness has just explained to Your Honours on the other map.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Without the numbers? Yes, it will be received.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter number 2373 shall be
24 received as Exhibit P349. Thank you, Your Honours.
25 MR. NEUNER: I would now seek to have Exhibit 318 being
2 Q. And Witness, you mentioned a couple of times tanks being deployed
3 that day, in March 1999. I would now ask you to tell us which vehicles,
4 tanks, whatsoever, you saw that day on the road -- on the roads or in the
5 operations area.
6 MR. NEUNER: On the right-hand side, we could maybe have page 2
7 of that exhibit being displayed.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The tanks were number 6, and there
9 were vehicles belonging to the VJ similar to number 2 on the picture.
10 Well, similar, not exactly like this, but similar. It was a combat
11 vehicle but not this kind; similar.
12 Q. First of all, the tank number 6, would you know a number of the
14 A. I think it was the 55. I'm not sure, but that's what I think.
15 Q. Could you - and this is now moving away from the operation - if
16 you know, explain a little bit, for example, what number 7, picture
17 number 7 is? What type of the vehicle is this?
18 A. It's a heavy-duty vehicle, and we had one such vehicle for the
19 transport of ammunition and food.
20 MR. NEUNER: Could we go to page 3, and we can just use the left
21 side of the screen to go to page 3, please, of that exhibit.
22 Q. Do you recognise any vehicles here?
23 A. I recognise number 9, but we didn't have one of those.
24 Q. What type of vehicle is number 9, and who had such vehicles?
25 A. The Novi Sad PJP Company had one such vehicle, and it's -- well,
1 I can't really use the professional name, but it was a combat vehicle
2 with 20-millimetre machine guns, I think.
3 Q. You mentioned a couple of times in your statement also BOV,
4 vehicle such as BOV. Did you see any vehicles here on the pictures I
5 showed you which are BOV?
6 A. Well, all of those were BOVs, these four and the previous ones.
7 We would refer to them as BOVs. Now, whether that was the professional
8 name for this type of vehicle, I don't know, but we referred to them as
9 armoured combat vehicles, BOVs; and whenever there was an armoured
10 vehicle with wheels, we referred to it as a BOV.
11 Q. We need to be a little bit precise. Which numbers depicted here
12 in front of you qualify as such a BOV? Could you just give the numbers
13 for the record?
14 A. Nine, 10, 11, and 12.
15 Q. Thank you. Moving on to the next exhibit; 2015 is the 65 ter
16 number. We have discussed this operation in and around Mala Krusa a
17 moment ago, and you have explained to us in your statement that it
18 started on the 25th of March, 1999. I want to show you this document
19 here now.
20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
21 JUDGE PARKER: We have at the moment some seizing of the
22 technical equipment.
23 MR. NEUNER: I can move for an early break, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE PARKER: We have two options. One is to move to an early
25 break or move to something else.
1 MR. NEUNER: [Overlapping speakers] ... I would seek to move to
2 an early break if the technology doesn't work.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We will break now and resume at 5
4 minutes to 11.00.
5 --- Recess taken at 10.22 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Are we in private session? We need to be, don't
8 we, for the witness to come in.
9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
10 MR. NEUNER: Can I have 65 ter 2015 being displayed. That's the
11 document we want to show at the end.
12 Q. Witness, you have explained in detail the operation in and around
13 Mala Krusa.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
15 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] The same objection. This witness
16 has nothing to do with this document except that it was presented to him
17 by the Prosecution, so we do consider that the document is relevant, but
18 it can't be tendered through this witness. Thank you.
19 JUDGE PARKER: We will see what emerges.
20 Carry on, please, Mr. Neuner.
21 MR. NEUNER: Just for the record, this is a document dating
22 23 March 1999
23 Crushing and Destroying Siptar Terrorist Forces in the Orahovac,
25 Q. I wanted to ask you about number 4 of that document, and this is
1 on page 2 in the English, the fourth-last paragraph in B/C/S, also page
2 2, please, in the first paragraph there. If you could read --
3 MR. NEUNER: We need to go up in B/C/S, please, to the top of
4 the -- yeah, the first paragraph. The witness can't read the headline.
5 Yeah, and in English we need to scroll -- yeah. Thank you.
6 Q. We see here: Decision, and it says:
7 "I have decided: To support MUP forces in their attack ..."
8 And the goal is then mentioned in the next paragraph:
9 "To block the Siptar terrorist forces in the general area of the
10 village of Brestovac ... Celine, Velika Krusa, Mala Krusa, Randubrava,
11 Pirane, ..." et cetera, et cetera.
12 Could you explain to us the documents from the 23rd of March,
13 1999, to which operation does that order relate to?
14 A. This document relates to the operation that I was -- that we were
15 in together with the Army of Yugoslavia.
16 Q. So you say "we were in..." So the operation was carried out as
17 ordered here? Is that what you want to say, or can you clarify, please?
18 A. I can't clarify it because this is not a document that we had.
19 We had something different, and this is described in far greater detail
20 here than the one we had. So there were many places that I was not in,
21 and I don't actually know where they're located either, but in general
22 terms, that would be the same operation.
23 Q. If you look here at the villages mentioned: Velika Krusa and
24 Mala Krusa, Bela Crkva. Are these places where your unit or your
25 neighboring unit were deployed on the 25th of March and forth-following
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So can I take it that the order was carried out, then?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. NEUNER: I would seek to tender this document, Your Honours.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE PARKER: We will receive the document.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 2015 shall be received as
9 Exhibit P350. Thank you, Your Honours.
10 MR. NEUNER: I want to straight move to the next document,
11 65 ter 99. We only need page 2 of that exhibit, and it's a picture, so
12 we need one screen only.
13 Q. Witness, in your statement you explained to us that at some point
14 in time, you set up a headquarter in Mala Krusa of your 7th Company. Can
15 you explain -- you told us earlier you came in the morning of the
16 25th of March, 1999, to the area of Mala Krusa. What day did you finally
17 set up your headquarter, please?
18 A. The 25th, straight away, as soon as we arrived.
19 MR. NEUNER: I think I said we need page 2 of that exhibit.
20 Could we please have page 2.
21 Q. Do you on this picture see where you set up your headquarter, and
22 if so, please encircle it.
23 A. Yes, here.
24 Q. Can you mark a number 1 next to this.
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. And we were having you mark a map, a map and a road, which your
2 troops controlled, the 7th Company. Could you indicate where on that map
3 the road is your unit controlled?
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. Can you mark at the right end of that straight line you drew a
6 number 2.
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. Which village, if any, is depicted here in front of us, the
10 A. This is Mala Krusa.
11 Q. I want to come back to the house you marked as number 1. Which
12 family, if any, was living in that house?
13 A. Yes, there was a family living there.
14 Q. Do you remember the name of the family?
15 A. I do know the name, but I ask that I state it in closed session.
16 I asked for that last time too.
17 MR. NEUNER: Could we move into private session? I forgot.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Closed session.
19 [Private session]
11 Pages 1608-1614 redacted. Private session.
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
18 MR. NEUNER:
19 Q. Witness, you certainly have heard that in the course of this
20 trial we are litigating an incident relating to a so-called hay barn
21 massacre on the 26th of March, 1999, in Mala Krusa; and a video has been
22 played in the course of that trial for Your Honours' information. That's
23 Exhibit 298, time code 42:21 until 44:10. I'm not necessarily intending
24 to play that video now. I'm just informing yourself about it. People --
25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
1 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we are all familiar
2 with all of the statements of this witness. He, on several occasions,
3 stated that he had no knowledge of that. My learned friend, Mr. Neuner,
4 is now telling us that he does not intend to show that video footage, but
5 what is the point at all of referring to that incident when the witness
6 stated clearly he had no knowledge of it?
7 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Neuner.
8 MR. NEUNER: I have a good-faith basis to ask the witness
9 questions about what his knowledge or not knowledge about this incident
10 is, and it's relevant to this indictment in these proceedings, Your
12 JUDGE PARKER: But is it not his evidence that we have perceived
13 that he has no knowledge of it?
14 MR. NEUNER: Correct, but am I not allowed to ask him one or two
15 questions about this?
16 JUDGE PARKER: But he says he has no knowledge, so what's the
17 point, then, of -- are you in a position to take the view that, despite
18 his evidence, he does have knowledge?
19 MR. NEUNER: I intended to ask this witness who was present - as
20 I understood his testimony, from the 25th until the 28th of March, 1999
21 at least, in this village - I intend to ask him which other units he
22 believes have moved through this village. That's all I was --
23 JUDGE PARKER: That's fine.
24 MR. NEUNER: That's -- exactly. I couldn't finish my question.
25 I got an objection in the middle of it.
1 JUDGE PARKER: You were introducing the story about which he
2 knows nothing, but what he may be able to tell you is what units were in
3 the village on those particular days, quite independent of what may have
4 happened in the village. So just move to the units.
5 MR. NEUNER: Yes.
6 Q. Witness, you heard -- you told us that you were in the village in
7 the time period 25th of March, early morning, until 28th of March, at
8 least, 1999. Could you tell me, did in this time period, apart from the
9 local MUP forces you mentioned, move any unit or parts thereof?
10 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
12 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] The witness already answered.
13 Your Honour, he has already answered this question on several occasions,
14 the same question, and I'm certain you are well familiar with that.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Please carry on, Mr. Neuner. The answer you had
16 is no.
17 MR. NEUNER:
18 Q. The question from me, then, is: Did you control all excess
19 routes in and out of the village of Mala Krusa, or was there a
20 possibility that somebody could move in there from other directions?
21 A. Yes. We controlled all access routes from the direction of the
22 road, but on the flanks and from the back, we had no control of that. It
23 could have happened that someone entered the area from one of those
25 Q. Once you learned later on, as you testified, about the massacre,
1 what was your explanation what could have happened?
2 A. I still assert that I did not hear such amount of firing that
3 would have sufficed to kill about a hundred people as is alleged.
4 MR. NEUNER: The Prosecution has no further questions,
5 Your Honour.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
7 Mr. Djurdjic.
8 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Cross-examination by Mr. Djurdjic:
10 Q. Witness, my name is Veljko Djurdjic. I'm a member of the Defence
11 team of the accused, Vlastimir Djordjevic. With me is
12 Ms. Jelena Dzambazovic, member of the team, and there is another member
13 who is absent because he is preparing our case. That person is the lead
14 counsel, Dragoljub Djordjevic. We speak the same language, and I
15 frequently forget about my pace. However, for the sake of
16 interpretation, please focus on my question and provide as brief answers
17 as possible, and also, please watch the movement of the cursor on your
18 screen. If any of my questions appear to be unclear, please ask me to
19 clarify, and I will gladly comply.
20 May I address you with Witness?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you. Reading your statements and looking at the data, I
23 conclude that you are a policeman who honourably performed his duties
24 during the missions in Kosovo and Metohija. Am I correct in saying that
25 you were also commended for that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have document --
4 Prosecution Document 1505 on the 65 ter list. Could we please have
5 page 2 displayed in the B/C/S and page 1 in the English version.
6 Q. Witness, you stated that General Lukic was the commander of the
7 staff and that he controlled the units which were sent to
8 Kosovo and Metohija. Could you please read the paragraph with the Roman
9 numeral II.
10 A. "The staff's task is to plan, organise, and control the work and
11 engagement of organisational units of the ministry, and also sent and
12 attached units, in expressing terrorism in the autonomous province of
13 Kosovo and Metohija."
14 Q. Thank you. Does this confirm what have you said?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you. Can you please read out the next sentence as well.
17 A. "In addition, the staff's task is to plan, organise, direct, and
18 coordinate the work of organisational units of the ministry in
19 Kosovo and Metohija in carrying out complex special security
20 operations ."
21 Q. Thank you.
22 How about the last two paragraphs preceding item 2? It begins
23 with: "The expanded staff ..."
24 A. "The expanded staff shall also include chiefs of the secretariats
25 for internal affairs, centres and branches of the RDB in the autonomous
1 province of Kosovo
2 Q. Would you agree with me that the staff comprised both members of
3 the state and public security sectors alongside what you've just read?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you. Could you please read out the Roman numeral III of
6 this document.
7 A. In terms of work, the work of the staff and the situation --
8 security situation within the framework of tasks of the staff, the head
9 of the staff is answerable to the minister to whom he needs to report on
10 the security-related events, undertaken measures, and the results of
11 those measures.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could Mr. Djurdjic repeat
13 his last question and the witness's last answer.
14 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. I don't think the interpreters heard me, so I'll repeat the
16 question. Does this paragraph regulate reporting and responsibility for
17 the staff's work to the minister?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, may we have page 3 in the B/C/S version, and it's still page
20 2 of the English. Thank you. Now, Witness, could you read out
21 paragraph 6, Roman VI.
22 A. "With the coming into force of this decision, the following shall
23 cease to be valid: The Decision to Establish an Operational Staff,
24 DT 01, number 4100595 of the 21st of April 1998, the Decision to
25 Establish a Staff of the Ministry of the Interior for the
1 AP of Kosovo and Metohija, ST 01 Strictly Confidential Number 1206/98 of
2 the 15th of May, 1998, and the Decision on the Appointment of the Members
3 of the Staff, that is, the head and members of the staff of the Ministry
4 of the Interior for the AP of Kosovo and Metohija, ST 01, Strictly
5 Confidential Number 1206/98-2 of the 11th of June, 1998."
6 Q. Thank you. Now, am I right in saying that by this decision, all
7 the previous decisions are declared null and void, are no longer valid?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, could you read out the signature, what it says at the
11 A. Vlastimir Stojiljkovic, the then-minister.
12 Q. Thank you. Now am I right in saying that in paragraph 5 of this
13 decisions it is determined that on the basis of Article 72 of the law on
14 Internal Affairs, that appointment of members to the staff shall be made
15 in accordance with Article 72; is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you. Now, am I also right in saying that in point 4, it
18 says that the staff shall commence work on the 16th of June, 1998
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you. Now can we move on to another page, page 1, please.
21 Am I right in stating that this decision, DT 01, and the number
22 is 1580/98, was passed on the 16th of June, 1998, in Belgrade?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I'm now going to start by
1 questioning the witness with respect to his testimony here today, and in
2 order for me to do that, may we have on our screens exhibit --
3 Prosecution Exhibit 5345, please; or P345 in English, and it should be P,
4 P345 rather than 5345. So P345, please.
5 Q. And while we're waiting for this to come up on our screens,
6 Witness, my first question to you is this: When was the first time you
7 saw this document?
8 A. Two days ago.
9 Q. Thank you. Am I right in saying that this is a document from the
10 staff of the ministry and that the date of it is the 11th of May, 1999?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Am I also right in saying that it refers to a staff meeting of
13 the ministry, a ministry staff meeting; right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, would you read out the first sentence underneath that.
16 Which one are you referring to?
17 A. "In the work of the meeting, the assistant minister of the
18 interior, Lieutenant-General Obrad Stevanovic, was present at the
20 Q. Thank you. Am I right in stating that this gentleman took part
21 or, rather, was present at the meeting but that he was not in fact a
22 member of the staff?
23 A. According to the previous document that, would be right.
24 Q. Thank you. Now, am I right in stating that his position was
25 assistant minister of the interior? That's what his post was; right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you. Now, am I right in stating that the meeting was
3 chaired by Major-General Sreten Lukic, the head of the staff, that he
4 chaired the meeting?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you. Am I right when I state that in addition to the staff
7 members, who are the first four persons on that list, that all the rest
8 were commanders of the PJP units?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you. Am I right in stating that these persons who were
11 present report to the head of the staff?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Before you move on, Mr. Djurdjic, did you want to
15 tender as an exhibit the document which you had on the screen?
16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
17 JUDGE PARKER: I'm told it's already an exhibit. Can I have the
18 exhibit number, then, please.
19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
20 JUDGE PARKER: Just trying to do your job for you, Mr. Djurdjic,
21 not very well.
22 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. You've
23 already done my job because all the documents that I'm using are already
24 in evidence, so that's how I'm conducting my cross-examination. Thank
1 May we have another Prosecution exhibit, already admitted under
2 number -- well, I'll have to give you -- the document number was 1492
3 under the 64 -- 65 ter list. It's a Prosecution document, P. But I'm
4 sure it was attributed an exhibit number.
5 I beg your pardon, but could my learned friend of the Prosecutor
6 help me out. Did you use that document today?
7 MR. NEUNER: I was just trying to check it, and I don't have it
8 in my binder, so I don't think I tendered it, but maybe my colleagues
10 I was just informed that 1492 has not been used today.
11 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. That is my mistake,
12 then, and then what P -- what we need now is P131, which was exhibited
13 today. And can we have page 2 in the B/C/S put up on our screens
14 straight away, and it's page 3 of the English.
15 There seems to be something wrong, but it was under the
16 65 ter list. It was 1493 of the 15th of July, 1998. This is 14 --
17 number 1493, and I was told that that has not been used. 131 is the
18 number. My associate has found it.
19 MR. NEUNER: Yes, it is 131.
20 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] As we were saying, would you look
21 at page 2 of the Serbian version and page 3 in English, although there
22 isn't a translation; but for what I want to ask next, may we look at
23 page 3.
24 Q. Witness, could you focus on the end of the page where it says who
25 sent this telegram. Am I right in stating that it says there, in
1 addition to assistant minister, it says PO written in pencil; and am I
2 right in saying that the person who signed wasn't Vlastimir Djordjevic;
3 it was somebody signing for; is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Now, Your Honours, there are a
7 number of documents like this, and at the end of the English translation,
8 it should read not "signature and stamp," but "unknown signature and
9 stamp," or "NN," "not known," because certainly somebody else signed this
10 document because it says pursuant to the authorisation of, "po," or for,
11 and if you look at the official translation into English, it would appear
12 that the aforementioned person signed, which is not true. It's
14 Thank you. Let's move on.
15 Q. Now, Witness, telegrams of this kind, dispatches of this kind,
16 were they normal, standard practice? Was it the way in which the
17 minister's orders were carried out in the sense of sending troops to
18 Kosovo and Metohija?
19 A. Right.
20 Q. Thank you. And now just to make it quite clear to Their Honours
21 and everybody else, logistics, all the logistics, including training,
22 materiel and equipment, weapons and so on, training, as I said a moment
23 ago. All that was done within the frameworks of the department that
24 existed in the police administration in Belgrade; right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you. And the engagement or deployment of the PJP and
2 control and command in KiM and planning came under the responsibility of
3 the staff pursuant to a decision from the minister; right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in Exhibit P133, I
7 don't have to ask any questions because we have the same problem coming
8 up in 133 as we did in 131. So I have to ask the clerk to put page 2 of
9 the B/C/S version, so I'd like page 2 of document P133 on our screens
10 now, please.
11 Q. Witness, is this the same as the previous document? It says P-o,
12 "po," and then we have somebody else's signature.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you. And once again, my comment is that the English should
15 be corrected and that it read NN, signed by hand, or not -- unknown
17 JUDGE PARKER: Can I make the observation, Mr. Djurdjic, because
18 it may save a lot of time, the Chamber does not understand the English
19 translation to be mistaken in any way.
20 The first document, Exhibit P131, said for assistant minister.
21 This document says per procurationem, or per proc, as it's usually
22 abbreviated. It's saying on behalf of, or for, and then somebody signs
23 it who is not the assistant minister, but somebody else signs. So in the
24 ordinary English rendering, this is saying it's not the assistant
25 minister who's signing. It's saying somebody else has signed for the
1 assistant minister. So if that's an issue you have with a number of
2 documents, I don't think you need to bother about it.
3 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. You know
4 why I did that? Because the lower half where we can see the author of
5 the document, in that document it does say Vlastimir Djordjevic
6 type-written, and then somebody signed. So in addition to this
7 type-written name, you have the signature. But you're quite right, yes.
8 Thank you.
9 Q. Witness, now, the other exhibits relating to these telegrams, I'm
10 not going to show anymore. You've already explained that to us, but I'd
11 like to move on now and look at exhibit according to the 65 ter list, and
12 it is P2015, and that is number P390 [as interpreted].
13 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] May we have the first page of that
14 document pulled up.
15 Q. Witness, am I right in saying that in the heading it says, "Joint
16 Command for KiM"?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you. I will read out the order. It says:
19 "Order to provide assistance to the MUP in crushing and
20 destroying the Siptar terrorist forces ..."
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. If there was a joint command, wasn't it supposed to provide
23 support to itself?
24 A. No, of course not.
25 Q. Witness, isn't it obvious that a command of sorts is ordering
1 something in support of MUP forces for its own respective units?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Witness, could we please move to item 2 of the document.
4 Witness, am I right in saying that item 2 contains tasks for the
5 Pristina Corps?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Does the PRK
8 A. Well, I'll not well versed in military abbreviations; therefore,
9 I can't say with any certainty.
10 Q. However, you said that it's a military abbreviation.
11 A. Yes, because the entire text, the entire document is from the
12 armed forces. It doesn't concern the Ministry of the Interior.
13 Q. Let us go to page 5 or the last page in the English, and page 5
14 in the B/C/S as well.
15 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. We can see it well.
16 Q. This document is not signed; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Witness, could you please limit your answers to the facts that
19 you are certain of. If there's something you don't know, please tell me
20 so. Today, you said that General Obrad Stevanovic was the PJP commander.
21 When does that piece of information date back to?
22 A. I cannot tell you exactly.
23 Q. Is that from the period prior to 1998 and 1999?
24 A. I truly can't say. I don't know.
25 Q. When we were going through this document, did you see that his
1 title is actually assistant minister of the interior?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Given the composition of those in attendance and the fact who
4 reported on it, would he have reported, also, to someone as the PJP
5 commander as regards the operations?
6 A. Well, obviously not.
7 Q. Thank you. Am I right, then, that you link General Stevanovic
8 with the public security sector having in mind his previous positions,
9 rather than the position of the assistant minister of interior?
10 A. I think he was on two different posts, but I'm not certain of
12 Q. Thank you. This is what I wanted to ask you. You said today
13 concerning the 25th of March, 1999, operation, you said that your company
14 commander received a decision about your activities. Were you present
15 when he received that decision.
16 A. Yes. May I add something? It wasn't a decision. It was a map
17 on the entire operation and disposition of forces, communication points,
18 et cetera.
19 Q. Since you say you were next to him when he received it, why were
20 you there? What was your function?
21 A. Each company has its command post. I was there to assist. On
22 occasion, I drove him. Sometimes I distributed food. But I was at the
23 location where our company command post was as a regular policeman.
24 Q. Witness, I'm asking you this because you said you were familiar
25 with the operation, and you keep referring to only one part, one side of
1 the operation, the one that you are familiar with. Do you know that from
2 a different direction, from Orahovac, there was an operation underway at
3 the same time?
4 A. I do know that, but I was only referring to the things that I'm
5 certain of, that I know 100 percent.
6 Q. Thank you. Am I right in saying that between the 25th and the
7 28th, you were not along the stretch of the road towards Bela Crkva,
8 which you marked on the map today?
9 A. No. I was at the line of the blockade for all four to five
10 [Realtime transcript read in error, "45"] days.
11 Q. Therefore, what you marked on the map is not direct knowledge on
12 your part?
13 A. We had that on the map. We knew where the positions of the other
14 participants were.
15 Q. Witness, am I right in saying that during 1998 and 1999, you
16 never received an order from your superiors to kill Albanian civilians?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Witness, am I right in saying that during 1998 and 1999 when you
19 were in Kosovo and Metohija, you never an order to expel Albanian
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you. Am I right in saying that you never received an order
23 to rob Albanian civilians, to destroy their property, to destroy and
24 bring down mosques in 1998 and 1999 in Kosovo and Metohija?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you. Am I right in saying that you, while you were in
2 Kosovo and Metohija in 1998 and 1999, you never killed a single Albanian
3 civilian; you never expelled a single Albanian civilian; you never robbed
4 anyone; you never set anything on fire, be it a private being or a
5 religious facility?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Am I right in saying that from your superiors, you received
8 orders to keep in mind the safety and take care of Albanian civilians and
9 to help them to the extent possible, and that this is what you were
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you. I will not examine you regarding your previous
13 testimonies, but I would like to refer to some other things I want to ask
14 you about which you haven't mentioned so far so as to save time and not
15 to examine you about the things which were already admitted.
16 Witness, am I right in saying that the local reservists were
17 protecting themselves in their villages because there weren't enough
18 police to protect them and they felt a need to enjoy such protection;
19 therefore, they decided to protect themselves?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you. Am I right in saying that on that occasion, you did
22 not conduct an operation of besieging any Albanian villages but that you
23 actually developed along the line of blockade?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Am I right in saying that the goal of the operation between the
1 25th and the 28th or the 29th of March, 1999, was to search the terrain
2 where there were members of the KLA in order to arrest them?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you. Am I right in saying that the operation was not
5 directed at Albanian civilians?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you. Witness, I have to go back to some issues which were
8 not raised today but are nonetheless of interest to me. You provided
9 your first statement in 2001. Going through that statement, I saw that
10 one of the people who talked to you was Mr. Philip Coo. I want to ask
11 you this: Did he introduce himself to you?
12 A. When do you have in mind?
13 Q. I mean the first statement from September 2001.
14 A. Yes. The two people that were there introduced themselves. One
15 of them appeared subsequently as well, whilst the other person appeared
16 only that one time.
17 Q. I'm interested in that person who was there the one time. Did he
18 tell you what his profession is and what he is expert in?
19 A. I don't remember that.
20 Q. Do you remember whether you worked with the maps shown here today
21 with him or with someone else?
22 A. No, it wasn't with him. It was with Peter Steward.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Pardon me, Your Honour, but I'm
25 being warned by my colleague that a wrong exhibit number was entered in
1 the transcript at page 55, line 4. It says P2015, whereas it should be
2 P390. That's what it was entered in the transcript, but rather, it
3 should be P350 from the 65 ter list.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
5 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Am I right in saying that in 1998 and 1999, the relationship
7 between the MUP and the army was such that there was no
8 superior-subordinate relationship? These were two separate organisations
9 with their own respective systems of control.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you. Am I right in saying that the PJP units in the cases
12 envisaged by the decision on their establishment were supposed to be
13 active in the entire territory of the Republic of Serbia
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you. Am I right in saying that the equipment of PJP
16 members was the same when you were sent to Kosovo and when you worked in
17 territories outside Kosovo, that is to say, in Serbia itself?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you. Am I right in saying that the uniforms that you wore
20 in Kosovo and Metohija were the same uniforms you were wearing when you
21 were deployed in places outside of Kosovo and Metohija but within the
22 frameworks of the Republic of Serbia
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you. Witness --
25 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do apologise, but
1 when are we due for a break? I wasn't looking at the clock. Should we
2 take a break now, or shall I continue?
3 JUDGE PARKER: We would normally have a break in the next 10 or
4 15 minutes, but if you would like a break now, we can.
5 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] No. I was just asking you because
6 I know that we started a little earlier, but, yes, I can continue. Thank
8 Q. Now, Witness, am I right in saying that the PJP units were set up
9 by SP 01 --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel repeat the number of that
11 decision, please.
12 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. -- of the 1st of August, 1993, by the minister of the interior.
14 A. I can't answer that. I can't tell you about the decision number,
15 the dates, and things like that. I really don't know.
16 Q. Thank you. Am I right in saying that the PJP units were
17 established on the principle of rallying men together, that is to say,
18 policemen together, and those policemen were people who went around
19 performing their regular police duties in the organisational units of the
21 and so on and so forth; and when they were called up, then they become
22 members of the PJP. Would I be right in saying that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you. And when the policemen complete their assignment in
25 the PJP, they go back to their regular police duties. Would that be
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, am I right in saying that the tasks and assignments of the
4 PJP were those determined by the minister once he makes the decision to
5 engage the PJP?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you. Am I right in saying that, as a rule, they were the
8 following tasks and assignments, among others, of course: To keep public
9 law and order at mass public rallies; and then to implement measures for
10 extraordinary security or special security measures; the establishment of
11 law and order when law and order has been upset to any great extent;
12 then, the detection and uncovering of sabotage and other hostile groups
13 and individuals.
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. Thank you. Am I right in saying, Witness, that a PJP unit, when
16 it is sent on assignment outside its original unit, that it is placed
17 under the command of the unit to which it has been sent?
18 A. I can't answer you if you put the question in that way. Could
19 you ask the question differently?
20 Q. Yes. Am I right in saying that part of a unit or whole unit
21 which, pursuant to a ministerial decision, is sent outside the realm of
22 the original secretariat, that it then comes under the command of the
23 individual who the minister has assigned to lead the operation to which
24 the PJP unit has been sent?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you. Witness, when we speak of police check-points, am I
2 right in saying that those check-points are established and set up in
3 order to detect illegal possession of arms, the smuggling of arms and
4 drugs, the smuggling of looted items, vehicles, stolen items?
5 A. Among its other duties, yes.
6 Q. Thank you. Am I right in saying that at those check-points,
7 there is no discrimination based on ethnicity and that check-points
8 exercise their duties in Kosovo and Metohija regardless of ethnic
10 A. Where I was, that's right. I don't know about the others.
11 Q. Well, that's what I'm just asking you about, about what you know
12 and where you were. If you don't know and weren't somewhere, then just
13 tell me and I'll move on because I'm not asking for an opinion. I'm just
14 asking for what you know or do not know.
15 Am I right in saying that when the operation took place from the
16 25th to the 29th of March, you did not expect this kind of civilian
17 influx into the area in which you were located?
18 A. That's right. We weren't expecting that.
19 Q. Am I right in saying that the civilians went out onto the main
20 road linking Prizren and Djakovica?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you. Am I right in saying that those civilians left their
23 homes for security and safety reasons?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Am I right in saying that during the time of the blockade, that
1 is to say from the 25th to the 29th, that you had an exchange of fire
2 with the KLA members, that there was cross-fire between you and them?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you. And let's clear one more thing up. When you drew the
5 location of the blockade and how far it stretched, was that something
6 that the police would do regularly when searching the terrain and when
7 trying to catch any sabotage and terrorist units or individuals?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. Am I right in saying, and bearing in mind the
10 questions asked today with respect to the six KLA members who were handed
11 over to you first, that a rifle, a Chinese-manufactured rifle was found
12 on them; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you. Am I right in saying that in the second group of
15 individuals, or, rather, there were three persons; that they, too, had
16 insignia patches denoting them to be members of the KLA,
17 Kosovo Liberation Army?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] And I think this would be a good
21 time to break, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. We will break now and resume
23 at 1.00.
24 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.
25 --- Upon commencing at 1.03 p.m.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.
2 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Before we
3 continue, my associate has just told me that in the transcript, line 58,
4 it says -- or, rather, page 58, line 1, it says 45 days. I'm going to
5 ask the witness again.
6 Q. Is it true and correct that the operation that you took part in
7 in the blockade from the 25th to the 29th of March lasted for four or
8 five days?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you. So now we can correct that in the transcript.
11 Witness, I'd like to move on to another area now please, and we'll come
12 back to the one we are discussing.
13 Does John Sweeney seem familiar? Is it a familiar name?
14 A. No. Although it is somewhere at the back of my mind.
15 Q. Thank you. So can I take it, then, that you don't remember ever
16 having talked to him?
17 A. I really don't remember.
18 Q. Thank you. And do you know that Mr. Sweeney, or, rather, do you
19 know that this same man, Mr. Sweeney, who is a British journalist, claims
20 that he talked to (redacted)? Are you aware of that?
21 A. Well, you've jogged my memory. Yes, I do know that journalist,
22 and I do know that he talked to him.
23 Q. Am I right in saying that this journalist, Mr. Sweeney, claimed
24 that (redacted) told him that he offered you a Mercedes if you were
25 to allow him to flee from him home, so am I right in saying that that is
1 not true?
2 MR. NEUNER: Can I just suggest that we go into private session,
3 Your Honours, because --
4 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, we certainly should be in private session.
5 [Private session]
11 Page 1640 redacted. Private session.
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.
22 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Witness, am I right in saying that save for the three people for
24 whom you said committed crimes while you were in Kosovo and Metohija in
25 1999, no other MUP member that you saw committed a crime?
1 A. Yes, you are right.
2 Q. Thank you. Witness, do you know whether the unit -- whether a
3 unit for special operations was a part of the state security sector?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you. Am I right in saying that the women and children that
6 were at the train station in Mala Krusa were completely safe and
7 protected; that is to say that you took care of them, provided food and
8 other necessities that you had, and that in essence there was only one
9 policeman placed there to take care of the children who were running
10 across the road between Djakovica and Prizren?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you. Am I right in saying that among the civilians there
13 were KLA members who had infiltrated such groups and that your orders
14 were not to engage such individuals so as to avoid civilian casualties,
15 although you knew that there were some KLA members who had changed into
16 civilian clothes?
17 A. I fail to understand the question. Could you put it again,
19 Q. Even though you knew that certain KLA members changed into
20 civilian clothes and mingled with the civilians, your orders were not to
21 open fire so as to avoid any civilian casualties.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you. Am I right in saying that your task was to hand over
24 captured KLA members to the crime department specialists in order to
25 pursue the procedure envisaged by law?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Am I right in saying that on that day in March 1999, you handed
3 the captured KLA members over so as to follow up on the legal and lawful
5 A. Yes. We handed them over to the Prizren SUP people who were
6 competent for that.
7 Q. Thank you. You didn't even dream of anything happening to those
8 prisoners when you were doing that?
9 A. That is correct.
10 Q. Am I right in saying that many able-bodied men after controls
11 were released and let free to go to Prizren, they were not detained by
12 the police if it was confirmed that they were not KLA members?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. Thank you. Could you please explain although I know how it came
15 about that you gave the statement, but it is not written in the
16 first-person singular and several places; in particular in the first
17 statement of 2001, I come across the phrase "my men" or "my people."
18 When we see that in English, as well. Can you tell us what did you
19 understand by that?
20 A. Not mine as such, but I meant to say all of the policemen from
21 our detachment, our company, our Subotica
22 Q. Therefore, you had in mind your work-mates from the 7th Company?
23 A. Yes, of the Subotica PJP. The statement was first drafted in
24 their language and then translated back into ours.
25 Q. Thank you, Witness. I have no further questions for you.
1 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you. This
2 concludes my cross-examination.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Djurdjic.
4 Mr. Neuner, re-examination?
5 MR. NEUNER: A few questions, Your Honour.
6 Re-examination by Mr. Neuner:
7 Q. Witness, you were asked today about Obrad Stevanovic by my
8 learned colleague. Have you ever met Mr. Stevanovic?
9 A. Once, when there were demonstrations. It had nothing to do with
10 1999. I only saw him there. I never met him.
11 Q. Could you tell me where the demonstration was and in which year
12 it was?
13 A. In Belgrade, in 2000, I believe. I don't know exactly. It may
14 have been 1999 or 2000.
15 Q. Was he accompanied by somebody, or he was just visiting on his
17 A. He was alone.
18 Q. Could you again clarify: In 1999, to whom did
19 Mr. Obrad Stevanovic report to?
20 A. Mr. Stevanovic's superior was Mr. Vlastimir Djordjevic. He held
21 two positions. He was post PJP commander and assistant minister. As a
22 matter of fact, he had two superiors: The minister and the chief of the
23 public security sector.
24 Q. If you know, on which issues did Mr. Stevanovic report to
25 Mr. Djordjevic, only if you know. I'm not asking you to speculate.
1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. I wanted to come back briefly to the six gentlemen from the KLA
3 which were handed over to the three local policemen from the SUP Prizren.
4 My learned colleague had asked whether -- and you had confirmed that a
5 Chinese rifle was found with one of these six persons. Could you tell
6 me, at the time you handed these six gentlemen over to the local
7 policemen, did the gentleman still have the Chinese weapon?
8 A. No. They did not have any weapons on them. They were searched
9 and handed over without any weapons.
10 Q. You were asked about --
11 MR. NEUNER: Could we maybe move into private session for a
12 second, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
14 [Private session]
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
11 MR. NEUNER:
12 Q. I've just a few questions relating to uniforms now. My colleague
13 addressed the issue of uniforms being worn by PJPs. Could you describe
14 the ordinary colour of uniforms worn by PJPs in 1999 and 1998?
15 MR. NEUNER: And while the witness is doing that, I would ask
16 that Exhibit 325 is being displayed as well.
17 Q. Could you just describe before the -- while the exhibit appears.
18 A. The uniforms worn by the PJP were green, yellow camouflage
19 uniforms. It is picture number 5.
20 Q. Could you tell me which other uniforms you can find here, as
21 well, on this photo-board and who wore them, if you know.
22 A. Picture 4, it was worn by the local police, the local reservists.
23 Photograph 8; the Frenki's men or the JSO; photograph 6 is a combination
24 of the PJP uniform, but it also had the so-called urban environment
25 uniforms; however, the vests depicted were part of our regular uniform.
1 Q. And "our regular uniform" is the uniform of the PJP?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. Coming back to number 8, you said it is worn by the
4 JSO of Frenki. What is "JSO" standing for, please?
5 A. Special operations unit.
6 Q. Who was commanding the special operations unit in 1999, if you
8 A. I know him as Frenki. I don't know his full first and last name.
9 Q. Could you spell, for the record, Frenki?
10 A. As it is on the screen. It is correct. F-r-e-n-k-i.
11 Q. Could we now have Exhibit 327, please, and if you see on the next
12 exhibit the insignias --
13 MR. NEUNER: I think it is a two-page exhibit, actually. If we
14 could have ...
15 Q. Do you find here any insignia from the JSO on it? If not, just
16 say so.
17 A. No.
18 Q. Do you recognise any of the insignia?
19 A. Only numbers 13 and 12.
20 Q. Thirteen, we had --
21 A. As well as number 4, the military police.
22 Q. Could you say what the patch 12 -- which unit wore patch
23 number 12?
24 A. That was the special anti-terrorist unit belonging to the
25 Ministry of the Interior.
1 Q. Who in 1999 headed the special anti-terrorist unit?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. Do you know under whose responsibility, overall responsibility,
4 now, the special anti-terrorist unit fell?
5 A. No. I don't know who commanded it and what its structure was. I
6 don't know.
7 Q. If I ask you whether the special anti-terrorist unit was under
8 the VJ or under the MUP overall in 1999, what would you say?
9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
10 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] My learned friend, Mr. Neuner, got
11 the answer that it was within the MUP structure but that he doesn't know
12 who it belonged to or what body. Therefore, he's already answered the
13 question, and the last question is, therefore, unnecessary.
14 JUDGE PARKER: I would have said that without any further
15 question, the answer was the Ministry of the Interior. Are you being
16 more specific than that in your latest question?
17 MR. NEUNER: To be honest, I don't believe I have established
18 that yet. I thought I was in the process of establishing that. My
19 learned colleague has suggested it.
20 JUDGE PARKER: I'm confusing question and answer. I see that
21 now. Please carry on.
22 MR. NEUNER:
23 Q. Could you tell us to the best of your recollection, in 1999, was
24 the special anti-terrorist unit under the roof and in the composition of
25 the VJ or of the MUP?
1 A. It was part of the Ministry of the Interior. I did not encounter
2 them, save for one occasion in 1998. In 1999, I did not see them at all.
3 Q. In 1998, could you tell us on which occasion you encountered them
4 and what task, if any, and if you know, this unit was performing?
5 A. When I referred to 1998, on one occasion they were with us. We
6 developed along the blockade line between Klina and Srbica, along that
7 road, but they did not go into action.
8 Q. Do you know why they didn't go into action?
9 A. Because there were no attacks aimed at us.
10 Q. Are you suggesting that in case an attack would have been aimed
11 along the line, Klina-Srbica, this unit would have been employed to
12 counter that attack?
13 A. I don't know. Had there been any need for them to take action,
14 they probably would have, but there was no need. I can't tell you
15 precisely in which cases they would have gone into action and under what
17 Q. Have you seen their equipment, and if so, could you tell us what
18 the difference between the equipment of an ordinary PJP policeman and
19 special anti-terrorist unit member was?
20 A. There wasn't much difference. They had infantry weapons, much as
21 we did. There was nothing that would be very different to the equipment
22 we had. They only had a different uniform.
23 MR. NEUNER: Could we have Exhibit 326 on the screen for a
24 second, please.
25 Q. You will see, these are different types of weapons. My first
1 question would be, which weapon was used by your own unit, the PJPs?
2 A. On the right-hand side schematic, we had the weapon number 1.
3 MR. NEUNER: The witness has recognised on page 2 of that
4 exhibit, weapon number 1, as the one being worn by his own unit.
5 Q. Could you tell me on page 2, meaning the right-hand side here,
6 what weapon number 2 and, if you know, number 3 and 4 and so on is? If
7 you don't know, just say so.
8 A. No, I don't know.
9 MR. NEUNER: I believe we have a third page. Maybe we could try
10 the third page. I'm informed there are only two pages. If we could go
11 to the first page, back again.
12 Q. Do you recognise any weapons on the first page?
13 A. I only recognise the photograph number 2. It's a mortar.
14 Q. Which units would use such a mortar?
15 A. Every detachment had that.
16 Q. You're referring to PJP detachments; right?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. NEUNER: Thank you for answering all my questions.
19 JUDGE PARKER: You'll be pleased to know that that concludes the
20 questions for you, and it's now possible for you to leave to return to
21 your normal activities. The Chamber would like to thank you for your
22 visit to The Hague and the assistance you've been able to give us. Thank
23 you very much. The court officer will now show you out.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome. Thank you, as
1 JUDGE PARKER: Private session.
2 Given the hour, we have two or three minutes only. I think we
3 would see no sense in attempting to start a new witness now. We will
4 therefore adjourn until Monday to continue with the next witness. We now
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.42 p.m.,
7 to be reconvened on Monday, the 2nd day of March,
8 2009, at 2.15 p.m.