Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

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 1                           Tuesday, 17 March 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Good afternoon.

 6             Ms. D'Ascoli, you are to take the next witness?

 7             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes, Your Honour.  The next witness is

 8     Mr. Emin Kabashi and his evidence relates to paragraph 72(g), 73, and 77

 9     of the indictment.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.  The witness will be brought

11     in.

12                           [The witness entered court]

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Good afternoon, Mr. Kabashi.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the

16     card that is shown to you now.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

18     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19                           WITNESS:  EMIN KABASHI

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Please sit down.

22             Ms. D'Ascoli has some questions for you.

23             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Thanks, Your Honour.

24                           Examination by Ms. D'Ascoli:

25        Q.   Good afternoon, Witness.  Could you please state your full name

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 1     for the record.

 2        A.   I am Emin Kabashi.

 3        Q.   And when and where were you born, Mr. Kabashi?

 4        A.   I was born in 1949 in a village in the Dukagjini Plain, Rahovec

 5     municipality, I live in Fushe Kosove of Prishtina.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  So you said that you currently living in

 7     Fushe Kosove; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thanks.  Mr. Kabashi, I understand that you have a Ph.D. degree

10     from the University of Pristina; is that correct?

11        A.   Correct.

12        Q.   And in which field is your Ph.D.?

13        A.   Philological studies.

14        Q.   Thanks.  Which is your current occupation, Mr. Kabashi?

15        A.   My present occupation is scientific advisor in the

16     Albanological Institute of Prishtina.  This is the highest academic

17     degree.

18        Q.   Thank you.  On the 24th of April, 1999, did you provide a

19     statement to a representative to the office of the Prosecutor about

20     events that you had witnessed in Kosovo Polje and in Pristina in

21     March 1999?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And have you recently had the opportunity to review your written

24     statement?

25        A.   Yes, I did.

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 1        Q.   Thank you.  And are you satisfied that the information contained

 2     in it is true and accurate to the best of your knowledge and belief?

 3        A.   Yes, it is very accurate.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Your Honours, I seek to tender the

 6     65 ter number 02250 which is the witness statement of Mr. Kabashi.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00424, Your Honours.

 9             MS. D'ASCOLI:

10        Q.   Mr. Kabashi, did you also testify about the same events before

11     this Tribunal in August 2006 in the Milutinovic et al case?

12        A.   Yes, I did testify.  I also testified in the Milosevic case.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Have you recently had the opportunity to review the

14     transcript of your testimony in the Milutinovic et al case?

15        A.   Yes, I listened to it, and I read it.

16        Q.   Thank you.  And if you were asked the same questions that you

17     were asked during your testimony in the Milutinovic et al case, would you

18     provide the same answers?

19        A.   Almost the same answers.  Maybe the wording might change, but the

20     answer would be the same more or less.

21        Q.   Thanks.

22             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Your Honours, I seek to tender the

23     65 ter number 05195 into evidence, and this is the transcript of

24     Mr. Kabashi's testimony in the Milutinovic et al case.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

Page 2355

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00425, Your Honours.

 2             MS. D'ASCOLI:  I will now proceed to read the summary of this

 3     witness's evidence.

 4             The witness describes the actions of Serbian forces in

 5     Kosovo Polje, or Fushe Kosove, and in Pristina in March 1999 and the

 6     events which led to the departure of a large number of people from the

 7     Pristina municipality.  On 25 March 1999 the witness observed Serb

 8     forces, police, and armed civilians in the street near his house.  After

 9     an explosive device was thrown into his house that day, the witness spent

10     the night in the loft of a three-storey house, from where he was able to

11     see Albanian houses and shops being burned.  The following day he fled to

12     Pristina with some members of his family, where he stayed for some days

13     in different neighbourhoods and in different houses.  He was then

14     expelled by the Serbian army and police and eventually directed to the

15     railway station.

16             The witness stayed there for three days and three nights and

17     describes the conditions at the train station.  The witness was then

18     forced on to a cargo train to Djeneral Jankovic, and once there he was

19     ordered to walk to the Macedonian border.  He was eventually transferred

20     to Albania by bus.

21             And this is the end of the summary.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

23             MS. D'ASCOLI:

24        Q.   Mr. Kabashi, now I would like to move to your statement and to

25     ask you some questions about the events you described there; but before

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 1     that can I just ask you:  Were you at any time a member, and in

 2     particular March 1999, a member of the KLA?

 3        A.   Yes, I was.

 4        Q.   And as you explained already in your testimony in the Milutinovic

 5     case, you were part of a logistic unit that dealt with providing material

 6     supplies, food, medicine, et cetera to other members; is that correct?

 7        A.   Correct.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'll be moving to March 1999.  Where were you

 9     living at the time, in March 1999?

10        A.   Until the 24th of March I lived in my house in Fushe Kosove.

11     When I was not at my house, I lived in various places depending on what

12     work I was doing on the ground.

13        Q.   Thanks.  But in March 1999 you were in Fushe Kosove.  And is

14     Fushe Kosove --

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Thanks.  Is the Serbian name of Fushe Kosove Kosovo Polje; right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Do you have you any children; and if yes, how many?

19        A.   Yes, three children, one boy and two girls.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Now, let's move to the 25th of March, 1999.  At

21     page 2, paragraph 3 of your statement - and this is both the English and

22     B/C/S version - you describe how you left your house following an

23     explosive and a volley of automatic gun-fire, and you say you carried

24     your mother in the cellar of a friend's house where there were more than

25     50 people.  I would like to ask you who those people were and what their

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 1     ethnicity was, if you know.

 2        A.   My family members, my mother and all the other people who were in

 3     that cellar were Albanians, my neighbours.

 4        Q.   And do you know why they were there?

 5        A.   They were also forced to leave their homes because of the danger

 6     posed to them by the military Serb forces and police forces.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Let's now move on to the day that you left

 8     Kosovo Polje and went to Pristina.  That was the 26th of March, 1999; is

 9     that correct?

10        A.   Yes, correct.

11        Q.   And do you know how far is Kosovo Polje from Pristina

12     approximately?

13        A.   Approximately 7 kilometres.

14        Q.   Mr. Kabashi, at pages 3 to 4 of your statement you say that you

15     first stayed in the Dragodan neighbourhood of Pristina and then in the

16     Vranjevc neighbourhood.  I'm going to show you a map.

17             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Could I please have on the screen the

18     65 ter number 00013.  Thanks.

19        Q.   Mr. Kabashi, do you recognise what's depicted in this map?

20        A.   Yes, I do.

21        Q.   Can you see in this map the neighbourhoods where you stayed?

22        A.   Yes, although --

23        Q.   Can you name them?

24        A.   This is Dragodan --

25        Q.   This is a map of -- this is a map of Pristina; correct?

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 1        A.   Yes, it is a map of Prishtina, although some parts are missing

 2     here.  So this is Dragodan.  North of Dragodan, somewhere here, although

 3     it doesn't say Vranjevc, it is the Vranjevc neighbourhood right there.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Could you mark -- could you put a number 1 close to

 5     the Dragodan neighbourhood and a number 2 close to the Vranjevc

 6     neighbourhood?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9        A.   I just did.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Your Honours, I would like to tender this exhibit

12     as marked by the witness and this is the 65 ter number 00013.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

14             MS. D'ASCOLI:

15        Q.   Mr. Kabashi, at page --

16             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Oh, sorry.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00426, Your Honours.

18             MS. D'ASCOLI:

19        Q.   Mr. Kabashi, at page 3 of your statement in the last paragraph

20     you mention that when the army and the special police broke into the

21     house of Qemal Avdiu, and this was in the Dragodan neighbourhood of

22     Pristina where you and other people were staying, they ordered you to put

23     your hands up, they separated women and children, and they asked money

24     from you.  You also described that ID cards were taken away from the

25     women who were in the room with you.  Can you please tell us and specify

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 1     who confiscated these ID cards from the three women -- from the women?

 2        A.   In Qemal Avdiu's house, who is a friend of the family, we stayed

 3     there for about three days and two nights or vice versa, three nights and

 4     two days.  In the morning, suddenly the doors were broken in and the

 5     police came into the room where I was staying with my family together

 6     with my wife, my sister-in-law, my eldest daughter with her child,

 7     another woman who had been sheltering there just like us.  This woman I

 8     didn't know.  And after the police came in, they asked us to put our

 9     hands up, which we did, and then they separated the women from us.  The

10     women were told to go to the corridor, and before they went there, their

11     ID cards were taken and torn and thrown away.

12        Q.   Was it the same forces who took these ID cards?  Can you specify

13     exactly who they were?  You mentioned the police.

14        A.   According to what we had been seeing in Kosova during that time,

15     these were special police forces.  Their uniforms were different from the

16     normal police uniform, and some of them who did not have masks on their

17     faces, they had painted faces and they had baseball caps on up to their

18     eyebrows, pulled down up to their eyebrows.  We did not have any occasion

19     to see such forces before.  We had not had any occasion to face such

20     forces before.

21        Q.   Thank you.  And you said that those forces eventually took you

22     out of the house and you were taken to the neighbourhood of Vranjevc.  At

23     page 4 in paragraph 2 of your statement you refer to approximately 50

24     people sleeping in one room at Qamil Berisha's house.  Can I ask you what

25     was the ethnicity of those people and if you know why they were there?

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 1        A.   When we were forced out of this house, the women were not even

 2     allowed to put on their shoes; they had to go out barefoot.  And we were

 3     directed towards Vranjevc.  And while we were walking in that direction,

 4     Qamil Berisha recognised us, and he took us into their home -- into his

 5     home, and in that house there were about 50 people, all of them were

 6     Albanians.

 7        Q.   And do you know why they were there?

 8        A.   All of them had been expelled from their homes and in order not

 9     to sleep outside, to sleep rough, they were able to find a shelter and

10     went there.

11        Q.   Thanks.  I would like now to move to the morning of the day you

12     were forced to go to the train station.  First of all, which train

13     station now we're talking about?

14        A.   It was the Prishtina train station.  Prishtina has only got one

15     train station.

16        Q.   Thanks.  And at page 4, paragraph 4, of your statement you

17     mention a very long column of people on the street.  Can you tell me what

18     you observed on your way to the train station that morning.

19        A.   Those who know Prishtina and the neighbourhood of Vranjevc from

20     where we were forced out that morning, that neighbourhood is in a sort of

21     a valley and we could hear shelling and fire-arms.  We were told and

22     ordered to go towards town, down-town.  On the asphalted road, the column

23     was divided into two parts by a tank on the bridge and one part was told

24     to go towards the Medrese while the other part of the column was ordered

25     to go towards the train station in Prishtina.

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 1        Q.   Thanks.  You also mentioned in your statement that there was a

 2     check-point on the way to the station.  Can you tell us who was manning

 3     this check-point that you saw?

 4        A.   While we were going towards a train station, I was stopped two

 5     times at such check-points.  Both times the people who were manning the

 6     check-points were Serb policemen.  They asked for money, and they

 7     threatened us, that if they found money on us and we had not given it to

 8     them beforehand they would kill us.  And they told us that, You have to

 9     go to Albania because you are asking for NATO.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Kabashi, at page 5, in the last paragraph of your

11     statement, you say that you stayed at the train station for three days

12     and three nights.  Can you describe what you saw there, at the train

13     station, in those days.

14        A.   I don't know if I'll be able to describe everything I saw, but

15     what I saw during those three days and nights at the train station in

16     Prishtina -- a normal person cannot even imagine that such things can

17     happen to people.  I saw thousands and thousands of people who were

18     brought there from various neighbourhoods in Prishtina.  They were loaded

19     onto trains, both cargo trains and passenger trains.  They were going --

20     the trains were going towards Macedonia because there is no other place

21     to go.  I -- the situation was very grave.  I saw people dying, women

22     giving birth in miserable conditions.  I saw people who were sick with

23     nobody to take care of them.  I saw children crying all the time because

24     of hunger.  Everything you can see in a concentration camp where people

25     have been displaced.

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 1        Q.   Mr. Kabashi, when you took a train on the night of the third day,

 2     did you board that train voluntarily?

 3        A.   I waited there for three days for my family members to come and

 4     join me because my family had gone to three different neighbourhoods in

 5     Prishtina, so that's why I was waiting there, for my family to come

 6     together with my mother.  However, they did not come, so on the third

 7     day, early in the morning, the police came, and they took us to a waiting

 8     hall and forced us to get on to a freight train.  It was very dirty.  I

 9     don't know what was there, cement probably.  And so we were told --

10     ordered to get on the train and the train started.

11        Q.   And after you boarded the train at the Pristina train station,

12     can you tell us which route you travelled through from Pristina, if you

13     remember?

14        A.   The train from Prishtina follows this route:  Fushe Kosove and

15     the things we could see on -- from the train from the cracks on the doors

16     and the walls of the carriages, we could see all the destruction and

17     people that had been killed.  So we went to Fushe Kosove, waited there

18     for two or three hours; from there to Ferizaj; then to Elez Han, and

19     there we were forced to get off the train and to work towards the border

20     with Macedonia.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Kabashi, what happened when you arrived in

22     Djeneral Jankovic before the border to Macedonia?  You say you were told

23     to get off the train.  Where did you go from there?

24        A.   A little further from the train station at Elez Han, the train

25     stopped and we were forced to get off, and we were told to walk between

Page 2363

 1     the rails, within the rails, because the area outside the rails was

 2     mined.  We had to walk up to a point which is called Bllace.  There

 3     police forces took the IDs from people, tore them up, threw them on the

 4     ground, and then allowed them to go by.

 5        Q.   And can I ask you:  Who told you to walk between the rails?

 6        A.   The policemen because the train was escorted by policemen all the

 7     time.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Kabashi, can you describe how was the situation

 9     there in those days you spent in Bllace, Blace, what did you see there?

10        A.   What I saw there was terrible, something that resembles a

11     situation that the people found themselves in during the Second World War

12     in the concentration camps.  There were thousands and thousands of people

13     living out in the open without sufficient foodstuffs.  I saw people

14     digging graves for their dearest ones that had died near the banks of

15     Lepenc river.  Then I saw a man who came from Fushe Kosove who had been

16     beaten and whom I knew from earlier.  He died there.  These images from

17     Bllace cannot be described in words.  People from this century can hardly

18     imagine something like that happening in real terms.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Kabashi, my last two questions.  You were then

20     eventually taken to Albania by bus.  Do you remember roughly when that

21     was?

22        A.   Three days later, sometime between the 28th or 29th, or rather --

23     yes, that was the date in March -- I apologise.  This must have been

24     early April when an order was issued and a long column of buses -- in

25     fact, we were assisted by a humanitarian organisation because my mother

Page 2364

1     was ill and could not move.  We left with this convoy of buses and one of

 2     the buses took us to Korca, a town in Albania, the following day.

 3        Q.   Thanks.  So it was early April when you reached Albania?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thanks.  My last question:  Why did you and your family leave

 6     Kosovo, Mr. Kabashi?  Did you leave voluntarily?

 7        A.   In war circumstances one cannot speak of voluntarily leaving your

 8     home, your country.  Our house had been hit and burnt.  We were forced to

 9     leave our house, to leave Kosova.  We were forced to board cargo freight

10     trains.  We were forced to walk between this rail up to Bllace and to

11     remain there in such conditions, because it was impossible to transport

12     that many people under normal circumstances.  This was a last exodus of

13     last century of nation.

14        Q.   Thank you very much for having answered my questions,

15     Mr. Kabashi.

16             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Your Honours, I have no further questions for this

17     witness at this stage.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.

19             Mr. Djurdjic, do you cross-examine?

20             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. Djurdjic:

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Kabashi, my name is Veljko Djurdjic.  I'm a

23     member of the Vlastimir Djordjevic Defence team and joined here today by

24     Ms. Marie O'Leary, a member of my team.  Our lead counsel is busy

25     preparing our defence elsewhere and is therefore not here with us today,

Page 2365

 1     Mr. Dragoljub Djordjevic.

 2             Dr. Kabashi, in your statement dated the 24th of April, 1999,

 3     paragraph 2, you say that on the 25th of April [sic], 1999, there were

 4     eight persons in your house.  Could you please list all the people who

 5     were there.

 6        A.   My mother; my brother, who happened to be there, he had come to

 7     visit our mother that was ill; his wife; my wife; my two nephews, my

 8     brother's son, my sister's son; and my elderly sister.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 2 you go on to state that among the

10     police officers you recognised Simic and Pedza because they had

11     interrogated you about the supply of food and medicine to the KLA back in

12     1998.  What was the result of that interrogation?

13        A.   I don't know what the result of that interrogation was.  What I

14     know is that I was kept for seven hours in the police station in

15     Fushe Kosove.  I knew these two persons.  Simic was the commander of the

16     police station while Pedza was the policeman who took me to the police

17     station.  Simic was also a neighbour of mine.  His house was in my

18     neighbourhood.  They wanted to know what I was involved in, and I

19     explained to them that I lived as every other ordinary citizen with no

20     extraordinary activities involved.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please specify the period of 1998 in which

22     this happened.

23        A.   Sometime in September, late September/early October 1998.  At

24     around 4.00 a.m. I was getting ready for a journey; and as I was bringing

25     back the car that was supposed to be brought back by my nephew, we were

Page 2366

 1     encircled and stopped by a police car.  They ordered us to get off the

 2     car, to raise our hands up, and after that they took us to the police

 3     station.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 3 of the statement you state that at

 5     about 1500 hours, having received a telephone call, you sent eight

 6     members of your family to Pristina to two different homes; is that

 7     correct?

 8        A.   Not the eight members.  What I said was the following.  At the

 9     time when this bomb was thrown on my house, we were eight members of the

10     family in the house; but during the same day I had sent my brother with

11     his family and my wife to two different neighbourhoods in Prishtina.

12     Because before that I had received two or three anonymous calls,

13     threatening calls.  Someone said that I should leave that place and go to

14     Albania and similar things.

15        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Kabashi.  I will read out the exact portion of

16     your statement.  This is paragraph 3, page 2.

17             "On that day at about 1500 hours, I received an anonymous

18     telephone call.  The first two times there was no one on the other end of

19     the line.  When the phone rang for the third time I heard a male voice:

20     'You can expect NATO.'  After these telephone calls, I sent eight members

21     of my family to two different homes in different parts of Pristina ..."

22        A.   Part of my family because the eight of us remained there that

23     night in the house.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Is it true that the portion of the statement that

25     I've read back to you is not accurate then?

Page 2367

 1        A.   No, this portion of the statement is correct.  After I received

 2     this anonymous calls I sent the eight members of my family to two

 3     different houses in two different neighbourhoods in Prishtina, but other

 4     eight members of the family had remained in the house.

 5        Q.   Mr. Kabashi, well a while ago you enumerated all the persons who

 6     were in your home and that added up to no more than eight persons.  That

 7     was a while ago.  When I asked you about who they were and you enumerated

 8     each and every one of them.  Yet, now you tell us you sent eight of them

 9     away.  How is that possible?

10        A.   My youngest brother lived with me in the same house.  It was a

11     three-storey house.  He was married.  He had two children, so four

12     together:  My brother, his wife, and two children.  Then my son, he was

13     married, he had sons, so three others, total of seven.  My daughter,

14     one - eight.  So these members were removed from the house after I

15     received this threatening call and the other eight members that I

16     mentioned to you earlier remained in the house.

17        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Kabashi.  But you've never said this before.

18     You've never said before that there were 16 people there.  I had asked

19     you a while ago about who was in the house, and you said eight people,

20     and you proceeded to give us their names.  Now it seems there were a

21     total of 16 people there.  Never mind.  Let us try and move on.

22        A.   When the bomb exploded in my house there were eight members of my

23     house -- of my family in the house.  There was no reason for me to give a

24     higher or a lower number.  This is the number of persons that were in the

25     house when it was hit.

Page 2368

 1        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Kabashi.  I'm asking questions, and you are doing

 2     your best to answer them.  That's all.  In paragraph 3 you go on to state

 3     that an hour later there was a power cut, soon after an explosion

 4     followed.  Can you tell me who exactly was in the house at the time the

 5     explosion occurred?

 6        A.   Now, whether the electricity was cut off because of the explosion

 7     or because it was an ordinary occurrence during this time in Kosova,

 8     including Fushe Kosove and my house, at the time of the explosion, the

 9     bomb exploded in the corridor at the entrance of the room on the right

10     side.  We were three members of the family behind the door - we were

11     seated, we were talking on the phone - my brother, my mother, and myself.

12     In the other room were the remaining members of the family who were also

13     sitting on the floor at the time of the explosion.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Dr. Kabashi, what about those rooms, were they facing

15     the street or somewhere else?  Could you tell us that, please.

16        A.   The windows of both rooms face the street in front of the house

17     and the street on the side of the house.  It's a one-way road, it's a

18     small road, it's not a main road.  So the front part of the house faces

19     this road, while the other side of the house faces this other road here.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Is there a wall separating the house from the street

21     or road?

22        A.   At the time, there was no wall, but it was a kind of a fence, a

23     fence encircling the yard of the house and separating the house from the

24     street itself.

25        Q.   Thank you.  What was that fence made of?

Page 2369

 1        A.   The lower part just above the earth was of concrete and the other

 2     part was rails.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Imagine a person walking down that street, could they

 4     see from outside in the street exactly what was going on inside your

 5     house, looking in from outside, as it were?

 6        A.   If the windows of the rooms facing the road are open or if the

 7     door leading to the corridor is open, they may well look inside the house

 8     from the street, the passers-by.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Did you have the usual type of settee in your rooms?

10        A.   At the time of the event, it was the usual type of settee, kind

11     of roundish, where usually my mother and myself and my brother would sit.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Perhaps there is one thing that we ought to explain

13     to the Chamber.  That means that you didn't have any chairs in those

14     rooms, did you?

15        A.   No, we didn't.

16        Q.   Thank you.  What about the other room, you said that you, your

17     mother, and your brother were in one room.  Who was in the other?

18        A.   My wife, my brother's wife, my older sister, and my oldest

19     daughter were in the other room, and my daughter had a baby, a very

20     small, young baby.

21        Q.   Thank you.  What was your first reaction when the explosion

22     occurred?

23        A.   When the explosion happened, I was speaking on the phone with

24     someone.  It was a land-line phone.  I was behind the door, almost seated

25     on the floor.  When I heard the explosion, I told the members of my

Page 2370

 1     family who were with me in the room to lie down because they could get

 2     killed.  The door fell on me and it probably was the door itself that

 3     saved my life.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  What time was it when this happened?

 5        A.   It was about 9.45 or 10.00 p.m.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right to say that the street lighting was off at

 7     the time?

 8        A.   Not only at that time but there was never light on the streets,

 9     on those streets.  There were no street lights.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Dr. Kabashi, what happened next?

11        A.   From another room I saw those who had thrown the bomb and who had

12     fired their weapons leaving the house.  After some time, having realised

13     that the bomb had destroyed everything in the corridor where it exploded,

14     we carried my mother, who was ill, to a neighbour's house; and there we

15     spent the night in a cellar, where we were more than 50 persons.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you, Doctor.  We'll be getting to that at a

17     later stage.

18             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I request

19     something if at all technically possible, and I think it should be.  When

20     the witness starts talking about something that is not related to my

21     question or if he goes off on a tangent, there's nothing I can do in

22     order to interrupt him and tell him that we might be getting back to that

23     at a later stage because my microphone is off.  Would it be possible for

24     me to use my microphone and flick it on whenever I need to step in and

25     direct the witness?

Page 2371

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  The witness is not using the special

 2     voice-distortion microphone, so that you can have a microphone switched

 3     on at the same time.

 4             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm doing my best,

 5     but it's no use.  I talk, I try to say something, but my voice is not

 6     taken up by the microphone and nothing is heard.  That's why I'm asking.

 7     We could go through this a lot more quickly if only I were able to do

 8     that because the witness is providing some answers that are a little too

 9     extensive if anything.  Thank you nonetheless.

10        Q.   Mr. Kabashi, when you noticed those people leaving, can you

11     describe exactly the scene that you saw.

12        A.   Some of them I knew because they were my neighbours, those who

13     were in civilians clothes.  Some of them were policemen wearing police

14     uniforms.  I even knew some of the policemen from that group, they were

15     neighbours of mine, and I knew them from before.

16        Q.   Thank you.  That is precisely what I'm trying to ask you.  It was

17     pitch black outside and yet you were able to recognise quite a number of

18     different persons; how come?

19        A.   The window from where I was looking out and the position from

20     where the bomb was thrown and the gun-shots were fired was not more than

21     5 or 6 metres' distance.

22        Q.   Indeed, Mr. Kabashi.  Nevertheless, it was dark.  You claim to

23     have seem them leave, yet there was no lighting outside?

24        A.   The night of the 25th of March was not pitch black, as you

25     describe it.  You could still recognise silhouettes and bodies moving on

Page 2372

 1     the street, so I could see them leaving, withdrawing, from the house.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Kabashi.  Could you perhaps help me with this:

 3     What was the name of the owner of the house to the cellar of which you

 4     took your mother, the distance between your house and that one being 200

 5     metres, as you said?

 6        A.   The owner of the house was Shemsedin Zogaj.  They were my

 7     neighbours.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Further on you said that you had gone to a

 9     three-storey-high house.  Can you tell me where that house is, the one

10     that you went to.

11        A.   It was in my neighbourhood and was the last house in the

12     neighbourhood, about a hundred or so metres from my home.

13             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the court

14     transcriber to separate the last question from the last answer.  As

15     things stand now, it is all one thing.  Thank you.

16        Q.   How far was that house from your house?

17        A.   A hundred or so metres away.  I never measured the distance.

18        Q.   Thank you.  I conclude that from that attic you were able to see

19     your house?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Before leaving Kosovo Polje, in paragraph 4 you say

22     that you again came to your house.  When was that, at what time and on

23     what day?

24        A.   It was on the next day, on the 26th, early in the morning, maybe

25     7.00 a.m.  When we saw that everything had been destroyed, I took the

Page 2373

 1     members of my family and left for Prishtina in my car.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Where were your family members the night before?

 3        A.   In the house where they had been sheltered, in Shemsedin Zogaj's

 4     cellar.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  You say further on in this same paragraph that your

 6     brother counted 162 cases or cartridges in the house; is that correct?

 7        A.   In the morning when we went back home, he collected that number

 8     of cartridges around the house and in the house.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  You also said that you had heard three bursts of

10     fire?

11        A.   At night when the house was fired at, after the explosion of the

12     bomb.

13        Q.   Yes, thank you.  Dr. Kabashi, you did not eye-witness the killing

14     of the 44 civilians of whom you speak in the paragraph 4 of your

15     statement; am I right in claiming that?

16        A.   No, I did not see them.  If I had seen them, I would testify to

17     that effect in this trial.

18        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Kabashi.  Dr. Kabashi, in paragraph 5 you say that

19     you went to Pristina and that you were accommodated in Dragodan, in

20     Qemal Avdiu's house.  As far as I understand, you were there with your

21     wife and who else were there?  It seems that I've forgotten.  Who else

22     was there of your family members?

23        A.   My brother with his wife and my daughter with her little baby, so

24     two men and three women all together.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And you confirmed that everybody in the house was

Page 2374

 1     Albanian.  I would like to ask you this:  The police officers came and

 2     they asked ID cards from all of the women; am I right in saying that?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And they never made that same request upon the men?

 5        A.   Not at that moment.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right in thinking that the police officers

 7     returned an ID to a woman?

 8        A.   Yes, that's correct.  There was a woman there whom I didn't know

 9     who had taken shelter in the same house, and after they looked at her ID,

10     they returned it to her.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Dr. Kabashi, am I right in thinking that the soldiers

12     who were there wore blue camouflage uniforms, which were of a lighter

13     shade than the police uniforms, and that they also wore masks on their

14     faces?

15        A.   No, the soldiers were not wearing masks, but the rest of it is

16     correct.

17        Q.   Thank you.  You are right, I misread your statement.  The only

18     thing that is mentioned are blue camouflage uniforms and I apologise.

19             However, the soldiers bore the VJ insignia on their sleeves; am I

20     right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Kabashi, am I right in thinking that you left

23     Qamil Berisha's house and that you went to Rexhep Ajazi's house on your

24     own.  Nobody escorted you there, nobody made you go there?

25        A.   We went to Rexhep Ajazi's house after we were forced to leave

Page 2375

 1     Qamil's house.  We stayed there for just one night.  These houses were in

 2     the same neighbourhood but in different places in that neighbourhood.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  However, it was your choice to go to your friend's

 4     house, to your friend Rexhep's house?

 5        A.   There was no other choice.

 6        Q.   What I'm saying is this:  It was not the police who took you to

 7     Rexhep's house; wouldn't that be correct?

 8        A.   Yes, that would be correct, but the police forced us out of

 9     Qamil Berisha's house, and in Rexhep Ajazi's house there were other

10     people as well, not only my family and myself.

11        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 8 of your statement you say that on that

12     day and during that night there was fighting in Vranjevac.  Tell me, who

13     was fighting whom?

14        A.   I could not see who was fighting whom, but there were gun-shots,

15     explosions.  You could hear gun-fire, blasts, detonations.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Dr. Kabashi, in your statement you also say that you

17     knew two persons who were killed during that fighting?

18        A.   Yes, but the people who were killed, the fighting had occurred

19     the night before and in another part of Vranjevc neighbourhood.

20        Q.   Mr. Kabashi, it may be so, but I'm reading paragraph 8 in your

21     statement and you also said that you had known the two men for 15 years?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Kabashi, do you know that while you were in

24     Vranjevac, the police station came under attack?

25        A.   No, not when I was in Vranjevc, but when I was in Dragodan.

Page 2376

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know whether

 3     this would be a good time for our first technical break.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.  We will have our first break now for

 5     the tapes to be rewound.  We will resume again at 4.00.

 6             The court officer will show you out during the break,

 7     Mr. Kabashi, and we'll resume at 4.00.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 4.04 p.m.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

11             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

12        Q.   You told me that you'd been in Dragodan when the police station

13     came under attack.  From the place where you were, were you able to see

14     that event?

15        A.   Yes, from there it's not more than 500 metres as the crow flies.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that there was fighting around the houses

17     that belonged to the Hartica family?

18        A.   Yes, the family's name is Hartica.  A member of this family was a

19     witness in this Tribunal.  There was fighting there and there were killed

20     people.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right in saying that the police came during the

22     fighting and after the fighting up to the place where you were at the

23     time?

24        A.   The police came after the fighting and told us to get out of

25     Qamil Berisha's house.

Page 2377

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right in saying that the police did not take any

 2     money from you on that occasion either?

 3        A.   They asked for money, but I did not have much money.  I just had

 4     10 Deutschemarks, so they returned that to me.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Dr. Kabashi, you said that a tank separated a column

 6     on the Vranjevac "most" and that they were divided into two groups.

 7     Could you please be more specific.

 8        A.   At the time when the column I was part of reached that part of

 9     Prishtina, at the bridge - the bridge still exists today - there was a

10     tank which divided the column in half; and part of the column went to the

11     train station, and I was part of that same column.  The other part went

12     towards the Medrese neighbourhood.

13        Q.   Was that tank on the bridge?  In front of the bridge?  Where was

14     it?

15        A.   On the bridge, in the middle of the bridge.

16        Q.   How come it was able to direct one group in the direction of the

17     station and the other in the direction of the Medrese if you were all on

18     the bridge?

19        A.   The people did not have any other way to go through.  They had to

20     pass the bridge, so there are two roads that lead from the bridge.  One

21     goes towards the train station and the other one goes towards the Medrese

22     neighbourhood.

23        Q.   And each of you had a choice where to go, whether to go towards

24     the train station or towards the Medrese?

25        A.   No, absolutely not.  The police decided for them.

Page 2378

 1        Q.   So this wouldn't have anything to do with the tank that you

 2     referred to?

 3        A.   It was related to the tank and the police that were there.  A

 4     little further from the tank was the police check-point.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  At the check-point that you have just mentioned, the

 6     police made checks pursuant to the list that was in their possession?

 7        A.   I saw the police list at the second check-point, not at the first

 8     one.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Very well.  Let's talk about the second check-point

10     then.

11             Why was your name on the list, Dr. Kabashi, can you tell us?

12        A.   To be honest, I don't know but I can assume.

13        Q.   Thank you.  You said that the names of four of your friends were

14     also on that list; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes, that's correct.

16        Q.   Would you please be able to tell you [as interpreted] who they

17     were?

18        A.   They were friends of mine.  Among them was Dr. Flora Brovina;

19     another comrade of mine, Nebi Bala; another young woman who was helping

20     the cause of the war, Zahide Zeqiri; a young man Bajram Ruhani, who was

21     also helping the war.

22        Q.   Thank you.  What would be your assumption as to why all of your

23     names were on the list?  Why were you on the list?

24        A.   Maybe due to the fact that we were in middle of a war there, and

25     they were active against those -- we were active against those who had

Page 2379

 1     caused the war.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  And what was in Flora Brovina's house at the time?

 3        A.   It's not clear to me, your question.  I don't know what was there

 4     in her house.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  As long as that means you don't know.

 6             Dr. Kabashi, you passed that check-point and the police didn't ID

 7     you.

 8        A.   The police didn't ID me.  They asked me for money.  I showed them

 9     the 10 Deutschemarks I had on me, but I guess that was not enough for

10     them, so they gave me that money back again.

11        Q.   Thank you.  How did you get to see the list and your name on it?

12     Where was the list?

13        A.   At the time when we were stopped by the police, one of the

14     policemen asked for money, asked us to produce money; and as I was taking

15     the money out of my pocket, he took out a list with typed names, the

16     names that I mentioned, typed on computer.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Were the police escorting you as you were moving

18     towards the railway station in Pristina?

19        A.   On both sides of the road there were policemen escorting the

20     column and there were also policemen on the check-point.

21        Q.   Thank you.  And where was the house whose owner had opened a door

22     and invited you inside?

23        A.   This house was some 200 metres before the second check-point that

24     we mentioned.  This was a small road leading to the main road.  A person

25     whom I knew opened the door to his house and invited us in, but I refused

Page 2380

 1     to go there.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  How far were you from where the person was standing

 3     who invited you in?

 4        A.   Maybe some 10 metres far.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  When he opened the door and invited you in, he wasn't

 6     fired at, was he?

 7        A.   No, not at that particular moment because the check-point, the

 8     police check-point, was about 100 or 200 metres away from there.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  He wasn't scared of just opening that door and

10     inviting you inside, was he?

11        A.   That I don't know.  I didn't have the time and the opportunity to

12     ask him whether he was scared or not.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Dr. Kabashi, is my understanding correct that you

14     remained for three days at the railway station in Pristina?

15        A.   Yes, that's correct.

16        Q.   Thank you.  And is my understanding correct that you remained out

17     in the open for three days without a roof over your head?

18        A.   Three days and three nights, thousands and thousands of people

19     remained outside in the open.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Did you have a telephone on you?

21        A.   No, at that time there were no mobile phones.

22        Q.   Thank you.  You remained at the station waiting for your family

23     to arrive; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes, correct.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Over those three days, no one forced you to get onto

Page 2381

 1     the train, did they?

 2        A.   When the trains would arrive, we would avoid boarding them.

 3     There were many people there to board those trains.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  The fact is you spent three days there waiting for

 5     your family to arrive; right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  You then took a train to Djeneral Jankovic and then

 8     you spent another six days at Djeneral Jankovic waiting for your family

 9     to arrive; right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Where were you staying throughout all this time while

12     you were waiting for your family at Djeneral Jankovic?

13        A.   We were forced to remain at the location called Bllace.

14        Q.   Mr. Kabashi, Blace is in which country exactly?

15        A.   It belongs to Macedonia currently.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Blace was always in what used to be then the

17     Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, wasn't it?

18        A.   Not always.

19        Q.   Well, when did Blace become part of what is now the

20     former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia?

21        A.   After Serbia --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Correction.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- Kosova became part of Serbia.

24             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Thank you.  And which year was that?

Page 2382

 1        A.   After 1913.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  I'm asking you about Djeneral Jankovic.  You're

 3     waiting for your family.  Where are you staying, and this is before you

 4     left for Blace.

 5        A.   We were not staying at the train station at Hani i Elezit.  The

 6     train proceeded to the border and some 2 or 3 kilometres before the

 7     border the train stopped.  We were forced to get off and to walk between

 8     the tracks, to cross the border with Macedonia.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Dr. Kabashi, is it not true that for the first six

10     nights of NATO air-strikes not a single Albanian accessed the shelter?

11        A.   I don't know for other Albanians.  As for me and members of my

12     family, as early as during the first night, we had to leave our house.

13        Q.   Dr. Kabashi, my question was:  Was it not true for the first six

14     nights of NATO air-strikes not a single Albanian accessed the shelter?

15        A.   I am not clear about the shelter you mentioned.  What kind of

16     shelter do you mean?

17        Q.   Dr. Kabashi, any shelter that a person might come across in a bid

18     to protect themselves from the air-strikes.  I'm just reading

19     paragraph 16 of your own statement.

20             "During the first six nights of NATO air-strikes, not a single

21     Albanian accessed the shelter or took shelter, generally speaking."

22        A.   This is correct.  This is the period that I remained there for,

23     and I didn't see people, Albanians I mean, going into shelters because of

24     NATO bombing.

25        Q.   Thank you.  How could you see them going to shelters?

Page 2383

 1        A.   I lived there.  Until the 24th I moved about in different parts

 2     of Kosova.  On the 24th of March, when I came back, I saw my neighbours,

 3     people from my hometown, and so on.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  I was asking about how you knew during the actual

 5     air-strike that people were not seeking shelter or going into shelters?

 6        A.   I knew this because I met these people, I saw these people, and

 7     as I was not seeking shelter they were not seeking shelter either.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have document

10     OTP 65 ter list 00013.

11        Q.   Dr. Kabashi, could you please draw on the map the building of the

12     district court in Pristina.

13        A.   To what I can see on the map, because there are no markings, it

14     should be in this black square with the red dot in it or in that area

15     more or less.

16        Q.   Could you kindly circle the place where the district court was

17     approximately.  I know that you can't do it exactly.

18        A.   If the location just above it is the stadium of Prishtina, this

19     here in the middle should be the building that you mentioned.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please put a number 1 next to that, sir.

21        A.   [Marks]

22        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please mark the location of the

23     Pristina SUP building.

24        A.   This is the building, both that of the court and of the SUP.  The

25     annexed here building on the right is a court building.

Page 2384

 1        Q.   Dr. Kabashi, what about the district court and the SUP, aren't

 2     they both in the main street crossing Pristina?

 3        A.   The district court building is on another location in Prishtina,

 4     whereas the court -- I don't know what it's called, misdemeanour court or

 5     something like that, was in another location, and it shared the building

 6     with the secretariat of internal affairs.

 7        Q.   Well, what about the location you marked, is that the

 8     misdemeanours court or the district court?

 9        A.   This is the building of the misdemeanour court as far as I know,

10     not the district court.

11        Q.   I think so too, Dr. Kabashi.  That's why I asked you about the

12     location of the district court in Pristina because that is the one you

13     mention in your statement.

14        A.   It is very difficult for me to orient myself on this map.  The

15     district court of Prishtina is on the road leading to Podujeve, on the

16     right-hand side of that road.  If this right -- red line is a road going

17     to Podujeve, or as it is called now Besiana, the district court building

18     should be here.

19        Q.   I think so too, Dr. Kabashi.  Nevertheless, could you please

20     proceed and mark the location of the district court.

21             You claim that you saw the main road?

22        A.   I don't know how precise or detailed this map is, but just for

23     orientation, the district court building should be here, the circle that

24     I just marked.

25        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Kabashi.  I think you marked it well.  What about

Page 2385

 1     the post office, the post office building, could you mark that too

 2     please.

 3        A.   If the centre were marked, the post office building would have

 4     been here.  I just made a small circle there.

 5        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Kabashi.  Could you please put a number 3 there.

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7        Q.   Could you please make it a little more visible.  We can't make

 8     out the actual number.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   Thank you.  And right next to the district court building, put a

11     number 2.  Thank you.

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   Thank you.  Dr. Kabashi, do you know that these buildings were

14     bombed by NATO?

15        A.   No.  The district court building was not bombed; however, the

16     building of the SUP and the post office building were bombed.  I did not

17     see the bombing of the post office building because I was not in

18     Prishtina.

19        Q.   What about the district court?

20        A.   I was in Dragodan that night.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Aren't both buildings, the district court and the

22     SUP, right in the centre of Pristina?

23        A.   No, the district court building is not in the centre of

24     Prishtina; it's on the road to Podujeve, as I explained.

25        Q.   Fine, Dr. Kabashi.  You say that when that residential building

Page 2386

 1     that was targeted, when the other two --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could counsel please be

 3     asked to re-ask the question.  The interpreter did not understand the

 4     question.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Would you mind repeating that question, please,

 6     Mr. Djurdjic; it could not be picked up properly.

 7             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Indeed I

 8     can.

 9        Q.   Dr. Kabashi, when the Pristina SUP building was targeted and when

10     the Belgrade district court was targeted, what about the residential

11     buildings surrounding those two buildings, were they not targeted and

12     destroyed as well?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Kabashi.  I looked at your statement, and I

15     conclude that while you were on your way to the railway station in

16     Pristina and then from there to Djeneral Jankovic, you were out in the

17     open all this time, were you not, unsheltered; am I right to say that?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Were you receiving any information throughout that time?

20        A.   No, I couldn't get any information.

21        Q.   Thank you.  How then were you able to say in your statement that

22     you had no information coming from the Serbian authorities, television,

23     or any other media as to what exactly was going on?

24        A.   From the time I reached the station and onwards, but up to the

25     time I went to the station, I did have some information.

Page 2387

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Nevertheless, you told us that the electricity was

 2     out?

 3        A.   Well, the power was not cut off all the time, non-stop, it would

 4     be on some of the time.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Kabashi, you made your first statement in

 6     April 1999, then you appeared in the Milosevic trial.  Between these two

 7     statements you said that you had seen Frenki's and Arkan's men in

 8     Pristina -- or rather, the first time you said that was while testifying

 9     in the Milutinovic trial.  Can you explain how this came about, you

10     suddenly remembering that on the 21st of August, 2006, which is the date

11     of your evidence in the Milutinovic trial?

12        A.   Because the accused, Milosevic, did not ask me about that before,

13     and I did not have any reason to answer a question that was not asked.

14        Q.   Indeed, Dr. Kabashi.  But back in 1999 an investigator of this

15     Tribunal spoke to you and also the Prosecutor in the Milutinovic trial,

16     who was the person asking you questions, and in the Milosevic trial too.

17     It wasn't just Mr. Milosevic.  I do apologise, but you didn't say that,

18     did you?

19        A.   Because they did not ask me these questions, and I didn't think

20     that I had to answer them.

21        Q.   Am I right in thinking that you remained the -- a member of the

22     KLA on the 28th November 2000 -- 1997?

23        A.   Yes, that's correct.

24        Q.   I apologise.

25             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I have to correct something in the

Page 2388

 1     transcript.  I can see the year 2000 first and then 1997.  I'm wondering

 2     whether my question was clear or should I maybe repeat it and correct the

 3     transcript accordingly.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Please make clear what it is that you're -- which

 5     year you mean.

 6             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Dr. Kabashi, is it true that you became a member of the KLA on

 8     the 28th November 1997?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right in saying that you and some other

11     colleagues of yours performed some duties for the KLA wearing civilian

12     clothes?

13        A.   Yes, you are right.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right in saying that women and young girls were

15     also members of the KLA?

16        A.   Yes, that's correct too.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right in thinking that some of them wore

18     uniforms and arms and that some of them wore civilian clothes?

19        A.   Yes, correct.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right in saying that you were a member of a unit

21     or a KLA formation based in Pristina which was responsible for the

22     guerilla activities that took place in Pristina?

23        A.   Yes, true.

24        Q.   Dr. Kabashi, could you please tell me about the basis of the

25     subgroups of the KLA in Pristina, where were those located?

Page 2389

 1        A.   They were located in several parts of Prishtina.  Some of them I

 2     knew about, some of them I didn't.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that they were also at a clinic run by

 4     Dr. Brovina?

 5        A.   That was one of the main bases.  It was a clinic, an out-patient

 6     centre.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right in saying that you carried arms when you

 8     went on field missions?

 9        A.   Yes, every time I went on field missions I did carry a weapon.

10        Q.   Thank you.  However, you did not have a licence to carry arms; am

11     I right?

12        A.   You're right, but I did not have -- where to get it from, that

13     kind of licence.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Your activity in the KLA and the fact that you

15     carried arms were the reasons why you were taken into custody in

16     September 1997, that you were brought in to the police station in

17     Kosovo Polje?

18        A.   Not in 1997 but in 1998, and if those were the reasons why, I

19     would not be here today.

20        Q.   Can you explain, how come you wouldn't be here, if you know?

21        A.   That was a war and a war is conducted between two enemy sides,

22     and when these enemies meet they kill each other.  That's the logic of

23     war.

24        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Kabashi.  We're talking about September 1998 and

25     you are alive, thankfully.  In the statement you provided on the

Page 2390

 1     24th of April, 1999, in paragraph 2 thereof you say about that event,

 2     about you being brought to the police, that you had been accused of

 3     providing the KLA with food and medicines, which means that the police

 4     were aware of that activity of yours.

 5        A.   The police were making assumptions.  If they were sure about it,

 6     they wouldn't discuss those things with me at all.  Secondly, the police

 7     did not have any facts or evidence about my activities.  Thirdly, I did

 8     not admit to anything that the police put to me, and that's why I think I

 9     was released with two other members of my family, my son and my nephew.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Dr. Kabashi, at the Milosevic trial you said that you

11     had two sons and a daughter, and it seems to me that earlier today you

12     said you had two daughters and a son.  Which of the two is correct?

13        A.   I was not here today in the morning, but when I was asked I said

14     a boy and two girls, so a son and two daughters, three children all

15     together.

16        Q.   Thank you, Doctor.  Today for the first time you said that during

17     the relevant time, during May of 1999, one of your daughters had a baby.

18     You'd never mentioned that before in any of your statements, at any of

19     the trials?  How come that you remember that for the first time earlier

20     today and only then?

21             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Your Honours.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Ms. D'Ascoli.

23             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Can I please have a reference for that.  It's not

24     my recollection that the witness said that his daughter had a baby.

25             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Let me reply, my learned friend.

Page 2391

 1     Maybe an hour ago the witness said that a daughter of his had a baby at

 2     the time and that she was with them in the house, either in Vranjevc or

 3     Dragodan.  I believe that the witness can either confirm that or say that

 4     I'm not right.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Do you have the transcript reference there,

 6     Mr. Djurdjic?  Could you give that?

 7             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I do, but I would like the

 8     witness to confirm or deny.  This is page 18, line 19, I believe.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  That is consistent with the

10     recollection of the Chamber as well, Ms. D'Ascoli.

11             Carry on, please, Mr. Djurdjic.

12             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Dr. Kabashi, you heard my question or should I repeat it?  Let me

14     repeat.  You said that in March 1999 your daughter had a small baby and

15     you said -- you mentioned that for the first time today.

16        A.   Yes, my daughter had given birth earlier, she was married, had a

17     child, and it is together with that child that she left Kosova.

18        Q.   Doctor, you did not mention that fact in any of your statements.

19     It was only today that this came up.

20        A.   I didn't think it was relevant, and maybe those people who asked

21     me questions so far did not think it was relevant either.

22        Q.   Dr. Kabashi, nobody asked you that today.  My learned friend did

23     not even remember you mentioning the fact and wanted me to remind her of

24     where this came up.

25        A.   Maybe she really didn't know.  I don't know.

Page 2392

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Kabashi, am I right in saying that in 1974 you

 2     were also arrested?

 3        A.   Yes, correct.

 4        Q.   Can you tell us why?  What were the reasons?

 5        A.   The indictment said for hostile activities against the people and

 6     the state.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  If there were proceedings instituted against you,

 8     could you tell us what the outcome of that was?

 9        A.   I was kept in prison for eight months, and then the court decided

10     to stop me from carrying out my education activities and my publishing

11     activities.

12        Q.   Thank you, Doctor.  Am I right in saying that from 1974 to 1992

13     you worked in an iron alloys factory?

14        A.   Feronikel, yes, but that was from 1976.  Till 1976 I was

15     unemployed.

16        Q.   Thank you.  I've taken the date from the Milutinovic trial -- I

17     apologise, the Milosevic trial.  Is it correct that during the relevant

18     time, i.e., 1974, Albanians were in high positions, both in Kosovo and in

19     the Federation?

20        A.   Yes, that's correct.  They were members of the

21     Yugoslav Presidency as well.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right, Dr. Kabashi, in saying you were also

23     taken in custody in 1968?

24        A.   Yes, correct.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that you were also arrested in 1981 for

Page 2393

 1     your participation in demonstrations?

 2        A.   Yes, correct.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  In 1981 the demonstrations were organised by

 4     students, those were students demonstrations; am I right?

 5        A.   They were student demonstrations, but also other sections of the

 6     population participated.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  At the time the slogan "Kosovo Republic" was the

 8     first time heard.  Can you please explain the meaning of that slogan?

 9        A.   The demand for Kosova to be a republic was proclaimed, first in

10     1968 and then repeated in 1981.  The meaning of the slogan was -- at that

11     time the movement in Kosova did not demand the destruction of Yugoslavia

12     but just was asking for equal rights to other peoples of Yugoslavia.

13     That is all.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right in saying that that meant that Kosovo was

15     to be given the status of a republic, and it would no longer be part of

16     the Republic of Serbia; was that the demand?

17        A.   Well, if it became a republic it couldn't be part of the

18     Republic of Serbia anymore, of course.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right in saying that in 1989 you were also

20     arrested?

21        A.   Yes, correct.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right in saying that your position was that the

23     only way to become free is to win freedom by means of arms?

24        A.   Yes, that's what I thought, what I said, and what I wrote

25     publicly.

Page 2394

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right in saying that after 1989 you tried to

 2     explain to other people that the only thing that could bring freedom was

 3     to -- for people to start on a war path?

 4        A.   No, not in 1989.  I explained this to my students in 1974, and

 5     that's why I was arrested.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Would you say that you started spreading that idea as

 7     of 1974?

 8        A.   I don't know if I was spreading that idea, but I know that I did

 9     say that to my students because I felt it was my moral obligation to do

10     so.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right in saying that you supported NATO

12     campaigns against the SR Yugoslavia because that should have protected

13     people who pursuant to the plan of the Serbian academy would have been

14     resettled and broken up as a nation?

15        A.   It is true that I supported the NATO campaign; however, the

16     second part of your question remains unclear to me, when you mention the

17     Serbian Academy of Science.

18        Q.   Dr. Kabashi, this is a quote from the Milosevic trial.  The

19     second part of your answer referred to your support to the NATO

20     aggression because NATO should have protected the people who would have

21     been resettled and broken up as a nation according to the Serbian academy

22     plan, and you will find that on page 4036 on lines between 18 and 25.

23        A.   The part referring to NATO is correct; however, the part

24     pertaining to the academy, you're either misreading it or I'm not

25     understanding it properly.  But I can repeat the same answer that I gave

Page 2395

 1     Milosevic at that trial.

 2        Q.   Let me try and jog your memory.  You even said that it was an

 3     academy document and you mentioned the name of Mr. Vladan Djordjevic.  I

 4     don't know whether this jogs your memory in any way.

 5        A.   My memory serves me very well, but I did not mention these

 6     details in the context that you are putting me now.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could the Court please produce

 9     D002-1922 -- but before that, Your Honour, if I could -- thank you.

10     Could I tender into evidence the plan of the city of Pristina where the

11     witness marked a few locations.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be D00054, Your Honours.

14             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could the Court please produce

15     page - and I'm checking the number, if you can please bear with me - 4018

16     is the page number, this is 4008, and I've asked for 4018.  Lines 17, 18,

17     19 -- I apologise, I got my pages mixed up.  The page number is 4036.  I

18     apologise.  From line 18 through 20, where possible 25 even.  Could I

19     please be shown the page number on the screen.  4036, I am looking for

20     line 18, please.

21        Q.   Dr. Kabashi, do I have to read the text for you, or do you

22     perhaps understand what it says in these lines, from 18 through 22?

23        A.   I have the English version before me, not the Albanian one.

24        Q.   I'll try to read it for you then.

25             [In English] "I supported and approved the NATO actions because

Page 2396

 1     it was taking under protection a people that, on the basis of the plans

 2     of the Serb academy, was meant to be displaced and dismembered as a

 3     people."

 4        A.   That's correct.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Did you mention the Serbian academy?

 6        A.   Yes, I did mention the Serbian academy in this context.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] 4037, please, page 4037,

 9     lines 8 and 9.

10        Q.   Line 8 says:

11             [In English] "It is a document of 1884, until the one that you

12     have implemented.  One of Vladan Djordjevic."

13        A.   That's correct.  This is what I said.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Thank you.  Dr. Kabashi, what was the objective

15     of the KLA after the beginning of NATO air-strikes?

16        A.   The objective of the KLA from the beginning and until the war was

17     over was the liberation of Kosova.

18        Q.   Thank you.  How many of your students were members of the KLA?

19        A.   I don't know the number, but far too many, and many of them were

20     killed.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Would you agree with me that in the Milutinovic trial

22     you stated:

23             "I think all of the soldiers I saw were probably my students.  I

24     knew their groups and their respective generations.  Most of them were

25     not my students."

Page 2397

 1             Is that right?

 2        A.   Yes, that's right.  This is what I said, and this is how it was.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Dr. Kabashi, do you know how many non-Albanian

 4     civilians were kidnapped and killed by the KLA throughout 1998 and 1999?

 5        A.   No, I don't know that.  I don't have this kind of information.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right to say you don't have any information

 7     indicating that the KLA were attacking policemen and members of

 8     Yugoslavia's army or killed them in 1998 and 1999?

 9        A.   No, I do have knowledge.

10        Q.   Can you tell us anything about these attacks on the police and

11     army, anything you know about that?

12        A.   Police stations were targeted.  During the fighting police and

13     army were targeted, but I'm not able here to give you any exact figure as

14     to how many Serb forces, members -- or KLA members were killed during

15     these attacks.

16        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Kabashi.  I have no further questions.

17             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you.  This

18     concludes my cross-examination.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much, Mr. Djurdjic.

20             Ms. D'Ascoli, is it practical to think that you would re-examine

21     now or after the break?  I leave the option depending on how long you

22     think you will be.

23             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Actually, I don't have questions in

24     re-examination, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, that makes it very easy, Ms. D'Ascoli.

Page 2398

1     Thank you very much.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Kabashi, you -- or Dr. Kabashi, you'll be

 4     pleased to know that that concludes the questions for you.  The Chamber

 5     would like to thank you for your further attendance here in The Hague and

 6     for the assistance that you've been able to give.  You are of course now

 7     free to return to your normal activities and the court officer will show

 8     you out after we rise for the break.  Thank you indeed.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  We'll resume at 6.00.

11                           --- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.

12                           [The witness withdrew]

13                           --- On resuming at 6.04 p.m.

14             MR. NEUNER:  The next witness is Mr. Zyrapi, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Neuner.  Can I mention for both

16     counsel that we expect in respect of this witness to receive his

17     statement and also his transcript of the proceedings in the Milutinovic

18     trial, where he was extensively cross-examined, very extensively.  The

19     Chamber would suggest to counsel that they should keep in mind that his

20     evidence and his cross-examination in that trial as well as his statement

21     are in evidence and will be before the Chamber, so that we would suggest

22     to counsel that it would be of very limited value to be simply going over

23     again what matters are set out in the written material we will receive.

24     There may be quite different matters that need to be examined in this

25     case, but we strongly suggest that we would not be well served and we

Page 2399

1     would really be wasting time simply to be going over matters that are

 2     clear from the written transcript.  Thank you.

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Good afternoon, Mr. Zyrapi.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the

 7     card that's shown to you now.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 9     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10                           WITNESS:  BISLIM ZYRAPI

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Please sit down.

13             Mr. Neuner has some questions for you.

14             Yes, Mr. Neuner.

15                           Examination by Mr. Neuner:

16        Q.   Good afternoon.

17        A.   Good afternoon.

18        Q.   Your name is Bislim Zyrapi and you were born on the

19     9th of July, 1962 in Studencane, Suva Reka; is that correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And in 2000 -- July 2006 you gave a statement to the OTP?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And before you came here today you had an opportunity to review

24     that statement?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 2400

 1        Q.   Five months later in November 2006 you testified over several

 2     days in the case against Milutinovic et al?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And before you came here today you reviewed your testimony, did

 5     you?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   So together, do the statement and the testimony truly and

 8     accurately reflect what you would say if you would testify today orally

 9     before this Court?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. NEUNER:  Your Honours, I would seek to tender the statement

12     which has the 65 ter number 5239 into evidence.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00427, Your Honours.

15             MR. NEUNER:  I would also seek to tender the testimony, which has

16     the 65 ter number 5201 and was given in the Milutinovic case, into

17     evidence.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00428, Your Honours.

20             MR. NEUNER:  I will read out the summary of the witness

21     testimony.

22             The witness was a member of the Yugoslav Army and later of the

23     Bosnian Army.  In 1997 the KLA contacted him while he was in the

24     Netherlands.  He joined the KLA in March of 1998.  Initially the witness

25     worked in the military operations department of the General Staff of the

Page 2401

 1     KLA.  From November 1998 until April 1999, the witness was Chief of Staff

 2     in the General Staff of the KLA.  The witness testified about the KLA

 3     structure, including its operational zones and commanders.  He trained

 4     soldiers and officers in the KLA.  He described the movement of members

 5     of the General Staff into Kosovo from Albania and the planning of KLA

 6     military operations.

 7             The witness provided information about operations of the KLA in

 8     Kosovo.  His evidence is relevant for paragraphs 25 to 32, 75(c),

 9     78 until 101 of the indictment.

10        Q.   Witness, can you briefly describe the insignia worn by the KLA in

11     1998 and 1999.

12        A.   Yes.  The insignia worn by the KLA in 1998 and 1999 were two,

13     actually, one worn on the sleeve and one on the cap.  On the sleeve, the

14     platform, the background was red; in the middle was the black eagle; and

15     the inscription was "Kosovo Liberation Army" under the eagle and on top

16     of the eagle, the initials UCK, the abbreviation.  On the cap it was a

17     round insignia, the background was red with a black eagle in the middle.

18     Just beneath it was written "Kosovo Liberation Army" and on the top was

19     the abbreviation UCK.

20             MR. NEUNER:  Could we have Exhibit P325 being shown to this

21     witness, please.

22        Q.   This is a photo-board which will come up in front of you.

23             MR. NEUNER:  If you could enlarge it to one screen, yes.

24        Q.   And if you see, could you tell us which of the pictures depicts

25     here the insignia of the KLA, if any?

Page 2402

 1        A.   Picture number 10 depicts the insignia of the KLA.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  I would move on to the General Staff of the KLA.

 3             MR. NEUNER:  Could we have Exhibit 600 -- sorry,

 4     65 ter number 61507 on our screen.

 5        Q.   And while that is happening, could I ask you:  Where was the part

 6     of the General Staff of the KLA which stayed in Kosovo located from

 7     November 1998 onwards?

 8        A.   From November 1998 until April 1999, while I was on that

 9     position, the staff was located in Divjak village, in the Berisha

10     mountains.

11             MR. NEUNER:  Could we have the usher, please, handing out a

12     marker for this witness.

13        Q.   So that you please mark on that map, if it is visible, where

14     Divjak is.

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   Could you mark a 1 next to this.

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   And was there a second location where the General Staff was?

19        A.   Part of the staff was located in Novoselle village.

20        Q.   And you marked a 2 next to this witness.  Can you tell us from

21     April 1999 onwards, where was the General Staff then located, please.

22        A.   From April 1999 it was located in Devetak.

23        Q.   Could you mark a 3 next to the circle, please.

24        A.   [Marks]

25        Q.   Can you -- the 3 is legible now.  Can you -- was there again a

Page 2403

 1     second location where the General Staff was?

 2        A.   During this period there was a part of the staff, the political

 3     wing, which was located in Petrove village.

 4        Q.   Which you have marked and circled with a 4 and you wrote a

 5     number 4 here on the map.  Could you tell me between November

 6     1998 and March/April 1999 where were you mostly located?

 7        A.   From November 1998 until April 1999 I was mostly in

 8     Divjak village located.

 9             MR. NEUNER:  Can I tender that map, Your Honours, please.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00429, Your Honours.

12             MR. NEUNER:

13        Q.   I want to talk about the next topic:  Division of Kosovo in areas

14     of responsibility of the Kosovo Liberation Army.  You mentioned a couple

15     of times operational zones of the KLA.  Could you tell me hierarchically,

16     were these operation zones below or above the General Staff of the KLA?

17        A.   The operational zones established in Kosova at the time were

18     below, or under, the General Staff, hierarchically speaking.

19        Q.   How many operational zones were there in Kosovo in 1999?

20        A.   At that time there was seven operational zones.

21        Q.   And would you be in a position to identify these seven operation

22     zones on a map?

23        A.   The first zone was the Drenica Operational Zone --

24        Q.   I want to show you a map.  I'm just asking whether you would be

25     in a position to identify them if I show you a map?

Page 2404

 1        A.   I will do my best to identify them on the map.  The Drenica zone,

 2     which I don't see here --

 3             MR. NEUNER:  Sorry, the witness is confused because the old

 4     exhibit which was already tendered is still in front of him.  Could it be

 5     removed from the screen.

 6        Q.   I want to -- I apologise.  I want to show you another map and

 7     wanted to ask you simply whether you would be in a position to identify

 8     the zones there.

 9        A.   Yes, I would be able to do that.

10             MR. NEUNER:  Just -- this map was produced by the witness for

11     Your Honours' information, and I'm talking about 65 ter number 2469.  It

12     was produced by the witness before he came to the Milutinovic testimony.

13        Q.   And, Witness, my first question is whether you recognise that map

14     as the one which you have produced.  It comes up in a second.

15             MR. NEUNER:  Could we enlarge it maybe a little bit.  We just

16     need the map itself.  Thank you.

17        Q.   Is that the map which you produced before you came to testify

18     here in Milutinovic?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   If I could just walk you briefly here.  Could you tell us what

21     you have marked with Roman I, which zone is this?

22        A.   The zone marked with number I is the Drenica Operational Zone.

23        Q.   Roman II?

24        A.   Roman II, the Pashtrik Operational Zone; III,

25     Dukagjini Operational Zone; IV, in the north, the Shala Operational Zone;

Page 2405

 1     V, the Llap Operational Zone; and VI Nerodime Operational Zone; and VII

 2     Karadak Operational Zone.

 3             MR. NEUNER:  Could I seek to tender that document, Your Honours?

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00430, Your Honours.

 6             MR. NEUNER:  The next document is 2453.

 7             While it is coming up I can already introduce it.

 8        Q.   It is from the 23rd of June, 1998, Witness, and it says on the

 9     top of it:  "Operational Zone Dukagjin."

10             I wanted you to focus on the persons who are mentioned --

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

12             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I believe we are experiencing some

13     technical problems because I don't see the document in the Serbian

14     language.  I wanted to ask somebody to assist me with that because I

15     would like to be able to see it.

16                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17             JUDGE PARKER:  The problem is to put a third document on the

18     screen at the one time, it would be too small for anyone to see anything.

19     The document is in e-court in Serbian, and it would be possible to bring

20     it up onto your screen.  We'll wait a moment while you get that

21     organised.

22             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, please proceed.  My

23     assistant will help me, and I will try to follow what I see on the

24     screen.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much, Mr. Djurdjic.

Page 2406

 1             MR. NEUNER:

 2        Q.   If we could focus for a moment on the persons which are mentioned

 3     under "proces-verbal," or minutes in English.  We see the person Smajl is

 4     mentioned.  Who is Smajl?

 5        A.   Smajl was the alias of Ramush Haradinaj, commander of the

 6     Dukagjini Operational Zone.

 7        Q.   And who is the second person, Mr. Maxhup?

 8        A.   Maxhup was the pseudonym of Lahi Brahimaj, who was a former

 9     commander of the Dukagjini Operational Zone, but at the time he was

10     member of the General Staff.

11        Q.   And then we see later that Agron is also mentioned among the

12     persons being present.  Who was Agron?

13        A.   Agroni or Agron is the pseudonym of Rexhep Selimi, the pseudonym

14     he used at the time.

15        Q.   And in June 1998 at the meeting, in what capacity was he there?

16        A.   At the time Rexhep Selimi, a.k.a. Agron, was director of the

17     operations of the general directorate of the KLA.

18        Q.   It says in my translation "general directorate."  Could you

19     clarify what the level was?

20        A.   Head of the operational directorate of the General Staff of the

21     KLA.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MR. NEUNER:  If we go in English and Albanian to page 3 of these

24     minutes, please, for a second.  And I'm focusing here on the bold text,

25     please, which is the seventh paragraph in English; and in the Albanian,

Page 2407

 1     the fourth paragraph.

 2        Q.   Mr. Maxhup states here:

 3             "The formation of the Operational Staff of the Plain of Dukagjin

 4     was agreed and proclaimed unanimously."

 5             And then The Major adds -- makes a remark and it says in bold:

 6             "It was unanimously approved that the Staff should comprise:  A

 7     commander, a deputy commander, an assistant for moral guidance and

 8     political affairs, a Chief of Staff, an assistant for logistics, for

 9     intelligence and counter-intelligence."

10             Could you tell me, is that a normal formational structure for a

11     KLA operational zone, all these positions?

12        A.   At this time the staff was being formed and within its structure

13     the staff of the Dukagjini Operational Zone began to be established.

14        Q.   And is that structure with all the posts mentioned here typical

15     for KLA operation zone structure?

16        A.   More or less, yes.  As the zones developed further, they began to

17     comprise more staff members.

18             MR. NEUNER:  Can we stay in Albanian on the same page but scroll

19     down to the very bottom, and in English we would need to flip to the next

20     page.

21        Q.   I'm referring here to a remark of Mr. Agroni again.

22             MR. NEUNER:  And in English I believe it is the middle of the

23     page.  Yes.

24        Q.   Mr. Agroni says:

25             "Draw up a draft of what you think and the KLA General Staff will

Page 2408

 1     reply within two days."

 2             Do you remember at the time whether Agron mentioned anything

 3     about the formation of Dukagjin Operational Zone at the General Staff?

 4        A.   Since at the time I was not near the staff.  Later on I learned

 5     that the Dukagjin Operational Zone was formed.

 6        Q.   So indeed it was established?

 7        A.   This is how the creation or the establishment of the

 8     Dukagjini Operational Zone began.

 9             MR. NEUNER:  Can I seek to tender that document, Your Honours?

10             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00431, Your Honours.

12             MR. NEUNER:  The next document is 2458, a document from the

13     8th of February, 1999, and we see here it has in the header the

14     Pashtrik Operational Zone in its header.

15        Q.   We see here that there on the left-hand side of the document

16     numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and so on, and I want you to focus on numbers

17     4 and 5.

18             MR. NEUNER:  If we could scroll down a little bit, please, in

19     English so that Your Honours can see that.  Yes, thank you, and in B/C/S

20     also.

21        Q.   We see here the 124th and 125th brigade.  Can you explain what

22     are the information provided behind these brigades, what does that tell

23     you?

24        A.   The brigades within the Pashtrik Operational Zone were starting

25     with numbers 121 up to 126.  The document defines the areas of

Page 2409

 1     responsibility of the brigades within the Pashtrik Operational Zones.  It

 2     specifies the names of villages, locations, and elevations in this area

 3     or operations area of the Pashtrik Operational Zone.

 4        Q.   If you look for a moment at number 4, referring to the

 5     124th Brigade, we see here in the third line that Krusha e Vogel railway

 6     station is mentioned.  Can you explain why Krusha e Vogel railway station

 7     is mentioned?

 8             MR. NEUNER:  And while the witness is doing that, I would ask

 9     that the map 615.06 is put on the ELMO.

10        Q.   Could you explain what Krusha e Vogel railway station means here?

11        A.   The meaning of it is the border between the 124 Brigade and its

12     neighbouring brigade, in this case the 125.

13        Q.   Could you mark on the map next to you where this railway station,

14     Krusha e Vogel, is by encircling it.

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   And mark a number 1 next to it, please.

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   And then could you mark where Retimle is.

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   And circle and mark a number 2 next to it.

21        A.   [Marks]

22        Q.   Could you tell me in that village which brigades were located

23     there.

24        A.   In Retimle village during the period November 1998/March 1999 was

25     the command of the 124 and 125 Brigades.

Page 2410

 1        Q.   Of which composition, of the Serb army or of the KLA?

 2        A.   When we speak of these brigades, I'm referring to the KLA

 3     brigades, 124 and 125 Brigades.

 4             MR. NEUNER:  I want to tender Exhibit 2458 -- 65 ter number 2458,

 5     please, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  That's this map?

 7             MR. NEUNER:  It's not the map.  It's the document from which the

 8     witness was reading the railway station.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, it will be received.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00432, Your Honours.

11             MR. NEUNER:  The map will follow us up probably until tomorrow,

12     Your Honours, and will be tendered probably tomorrow, Your Honours.

13        Q.   I want to talk about appointment of brigade commanders in the

14     KLA.

15             MR. NEUNER:  Could I have 65 ter number 2456 on our screen,

16     please.  The map can remain.  We will need it a couple of times today and

17     also the marker, please, could stay with the witness.  No need to bring

18     it every time again.  Thank you.

19        Q.   Yeah, Witness, if you look for a second at this document which is

20     from the 7th of March, it says, if I read the first two lines, there is a

21     suggestion made to appoint Mr. Selim Krasniqi to position of commander of

22     the 125th Brigade.

23             My question is:  To whom is that proposal sent?

24        A.   The proposal has been made by the Pashtrik Operational Zone

25     commander and was sent to the General Staff.

Page 2411

 1        Q.   And how did the General Staff react to this proposal?

 2        A.   After the proposal reached the staff, it was discussed and the

 3     proposal, at the time, was not adopted.

 4        Q.   Were you involved in the discussions if at all?

 5        A.   No.  There were other members of the General Staff as well,

 6     General Staff of the KLA.

 7        Q.   But if you were also involved in discussions?

 8        A.   Yes, I personally took part in the discussions.

 9        Q.   So after the General Staff rejected this proposal, was

10     Selim Krasniqi appointed?

11        A.   No.  The former -- the previous commander remained as commander

12     of the zone.

13        Q.   Is it fair to say that against the will and decision of the

14     General Staff, no KLA brigades could be appointed in 1999?

15        A.   Yes.

16             MR. NEUNER:  I would seek to tender that document, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  That will be received.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00433, Your Honours.

19             MR. NEUNER:  I'm moving on to the next topic of training,

20     Exhibit -- sorry, 65 ter number 2467, please, on the screen.

21        Q.   We see here a document from the 9th of February, 1999, an order,

22     it says, from the Operational Zone Pashtrik.  And the first line says:

23             "Pursuant to the order of the General Staff of the UCK ..." and

24     so on and so forth.

25             Who in the General Staff of the KLA issued that order which is

Page 2412

 1     referred to here?

 2        A.   The Chief of Staff has issued this order, meaning myself.

 3        Q.   And then we see Mr. Rexha, the commander of

 4     Operational Zone Pashtrik, is here sending two men for training of

 5     battalion commanders.  Could you tell me, how many battalion commanders

 6     were participating in the training activity?

 7        A.   There were 30 battalion commanders who took part in that

 8     training.

 9        Q.   Could you tell me from which operational zones of the KLA were

10     these battalion commanders coming?

11        A.   They came from all the operational zones of the KLA.

12        Q.   And could you tell me, where did the training take place?

13        A.   The training took place in the village of Nishor.

14        Q.   Could you, if you find it, mark it and circle it on the map and

15     mark a 3 next to it, please.

16        A.   Yes.

17             MR. NEUNER:  I don't get a picture here on the ELMO right now,

18     Your Honours.  There appears to be a technical problem.  Yes, now it's

19     coming.  Could we maybe move the map a little bit because I can't see

20     right now where the spot is which is marked by the witness.  Yes, we see

21     it is in the upper right-hand corner the witness has circled and marked a

22     3 next to the place where the training took place.

23        Q.   Could you tell me which type of training was provided on that

24     occasion?

25        A.   At the time, the training of battalion commanders and other

Page 2413

 1     leaders consisted of training in the use of arms and weapons, tactical

 2     preparation in the use of their units.

 3        Q.   And how long did the training last and did you yourself

 4     participate?

 5        A.   Each group took part in a three-week training session, and I took

 6     part in the training as well.

 7             MR. NEUNER:  Can I seek to tender 2467, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00434, Your Honours.

10             MR. NEUNER:

11        Q.   Can I just ask, since we have the map in front of us, where was

12     the headquarter of Operational Zone Pashtrik?

13        A.   The Pashtrik Operational Zone staff was in the same village.

14     This village is made up of several groups of houses.  The staff was

15     located in the agricultural cooperative buildings.

16        Q.   In Nishor?

17        A.   Yes, in Nishor.

18             MR. NEUNER:  Can I have the next document, 2459 displayed and we

19     would need to have right away page 2, please.

20        Q.   Witness, you see here in front of you a document.  Could you tell

21     me who produced this document?

22        A.   I produced this document, and this document was used in the

23     training of battalion commanders.

24        Q.   In Nishor?

25        A.   Yes, in Nishor.

Page 2414

 1             MR. NEUNER:  Could I seek to tender that document, Your Honours,

 2     2459 is the 65 ter number .

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

 4                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  I'm told this is only one of a number of pages.

 6     Is it the whole document or merely this page?

 7             MR. NEUNER:  I can ask the witness whether the entire batch

 8     related to training material.

 9        Q.   Could you explain to Your Honours whether the entire batch was

10     relating to training material?

11        A.   Yes, the whole batch of documents produced were used in the

12     training of battalion commanders in Nishor.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MR. NEUNER:  So, please, I would seek to tender the entire batch.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  The whole bundle will be received.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Has P00435, Your Honours.

17             MR. NEUNER:  I want to move on to orders now, 2449 is the 65 ter

18     number of our next document.

19        Q.   And, Witness, you see already the first page here which is

20     entitled:

21             "Interim regulations of the organisation of internal affairs in

22     the army," with the KLA insignia.  Could you explain what these interim

23     regulations are.

24        A.   This document was issued in 1998 and it is a document that

25     regulated the internal organisation of the KLA.  We used the term

Page 2415

 1     "interim" here because there were changes that occurred as events

 2     developed.

 3        Q.   I have just one question relating to page 5 in Albanian and

 4     page 3, the last two paragraphs in English, and I'm referring here to the

 5     headline Roman II:  Regulations on the giving and receiving of orders,

 6     because I want to talk about orders a little bit with you today.

 7             If you look at the second hyphen under number II or the second

 8     paragraph under number 2, it says --

 9             MR. NEUNER:  I think in English it is the next page, Your

10     Honours, we need to go to the next page, page number 4, please.  Sorry,

11     Albanian was fine.  Yes.  I think we are on the wrong -- one moment -- we

12     need -- yeah, I think number II and then the second sentence there.

13        Q.   "The soldier must report back to his superior officer as to the

14     order carried out."

15             Can you explain what that means in terms of KLA hierarchy and

16     military theory?

17        A.   From what I can see here, the Albanian version is not on the same

18     page as the English one.

19        Q.   That's correct, but I believe you have this section number II in

20     front of you, and it's being highlighted now.  The sentence reads:

21             "The soldier must report back to his superior officer as to the

22     order carried out."

23             Could you explain what that means in terms of military theory and

24     the KLA structure?

25        A.   Yes.  This regulates the military hierarchy from top down and

Page 2416

 1     bottom up.  So the soldier, upon completion of the order, should or must

 2     report to his superior officer.

 3             MR. NEUNER:  Can I seek to tender that document and the entire

 4     document relates to the internal rules of the KLA, Your Honours?

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  The regulations will be received.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be under P00436, Your Honours.

 7             MR. NEUNER:  And the next document is 2461.

 8        Q.   And my first question when the document comes up is:  Who signed

 9     the document?

10        A.   This document was signed by me.

11        Q.   Okay.  We see here in number 1 that you order that regular daily

12     combat reports have to be produced, and in number 2 you are saying that:

13             " ... in exceptional situations involving movements or groupings

14     by the enemy forces or surprise or sudden attacks, they should urgently

15     inform the Chief of the KLA ..."

16             Could you, first of all, tell me what enemy force have you

17     envisaged here?

18        A.   Here I mean the Serb forces, military and police forces.

19        Q.   And who is the chief of the KLA who should be urgently

20     informed -- sorry, chief of KLA General Staff it says in my translation.

21        A.   At that time that person was me.

22        Q.   And who is -- where was the -- or who is the duty operations

23     officer which should also be informed according to that document?

24        A.   The duty officers were from the operations directorate, and they

25     worked together with me.  All the duty officers worked in that

Page 2417

 1     directorate.

 2        Q.   And where was that directorate located?

 3        A.   The directorate was located in the same building that the staff

 4     was, which is the building in Divjak.

 5        Q.   And who is the deputy commander of the KLA General Staff who

 6     should also be informed, according to that document?

 7        A.   At the time deputy commander of the General Staff who was at the

 8     time located in the same village as I was, this person was

 9     Jakup Krasniqi.

10             MR. NEUNER:  Could I seek to tender 2461 into evidence,

11     Your Honours?

12             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00437, Your Honours.

14             MR. NEUNER:  Moving on to types of orders, the next document has

15     the number 251.

16                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

17             MR. NEUNER:  There is maybe a problem with the number.  I'm

18     trying to fix it.  2451 is needed.  Yeah.

19        Q.   First of all, I would be interested, if you can tell us, Who

20     signed this document, which is from 2nd of July, 1998.

21        A.   This document bears the signature of the commander of

22     Operational Zone of Dukagjin, Ramush Haradinaj.

23        Q.   And we see here that six men are dispatched as reinforcement.  In

24     military terms what does "reinforcement" mean?

25        A.    "Reinforcement" in the military sense means that the village in

Page 2418

 1     question asked for assistance and the next military unit sent a group of

 2     soldiers to assist that unit.  That's called "reinforcement."

 3        Q.   Is this a superior unit which is sending reinforcements?

 4        A.   The zone command sent the reinforcement to the area which was

 5     under their responsibility.

 6             MR. NEUNER:  Could I seek to tender that document, 2451, into

 7     evidence.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00438, Your Honours.

10             MR. NEUNER:  The next document is 2452 from the same day,

11     2nd of July, 1998.

12        Q.   And I would again, if it comes up in a second, ask you to tell us

13     whose signature we can see, whether you know that signature?

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

15             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wanted to

16     intervene a minute ago, but I gave it some time.  This is the second

17     document of the same sort, and they have nothing to do with the witness.

18     One operational zone in the previous document shows that Ramush Haradinaj

19     sent reinforcements to his unit or village, but there was no reference to

20     the KLA staff or this witness here.  As far as I can tell, it seems to me

21     that this is the same type of document and -- that probably originated

22     from the Dukadjini Operational Zone, and I don't know what that has to do

23     with the witness.  I don't even know if the witness was at the time --

24     oh, I can see that he indeed was a member of the Main Staff.

25             MR. NEUNER:  This witness is coming to prove the hierarchy within

Page 2419

 1     the KLA and explain us military documents which were issued in or on the

 2     levels of the hierarchy of the KLA.  And I'm always asking this witness

 3     whether he's recognising the signature and can tell us who that person

 4     is.  He has identified Mr. Haradinaj earlier in a document which I've

 5     shown from this zone.  We have understood that the operational zones are

 6     directly below the General Staff of the KLA to which the witness belonged

 7     to.  So he's talking here about documents signed by subordinates of him.

 8     I believe that gives a foundation for me to ask questions.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

10             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I believe that Mr. Neuner has

11     reached a problematic situation.  The witness showed him and drew him a

12     picture of operational zones at the moment when he became the chief of

13     the general -- of the Main Staff of the KLA.  And these documents talk

14     about the operational zones as they were before 1998, before he arrived,

15     and the witness himself said it that the period in question differed from

16     the period -- from the subsequent periods, i.e., when he became the chief

17     of the Main Staff.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Neuner.

19             MR. NEUNER:  It is in the witness's testimony which I have

20     tendered, I think, as the second document today that the witness has

21     arrived in Kosovo in March 1998 and was also working in the General Staff

22     throughout the summer 1998.  It's also in the witness's testimony that he

23     has worked in the operations department.  This is an order here relating

24     to moving of staff, probably relating to certain operations, and I

25     believe I have a good-faith basis to ask questions upon it.

Page 2420

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Neuner, can you assist me by telling me what

 2     is the relevance of this order and document to our case?

 3             MR. NEUNER:  First of all, I'm almost identically tendering the

 4     same documents which were tendered in the MOS case and this is the --

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  In the what case?

 6             MR. NEUNER:  In the Milutinovic et al case, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  And how does that help us?

 8             MR. NEUNER:  This does not help necessarily.  I was trying to

 9     make another point.  I just wanted to say that this is relating here to

10     the internal organisation of the KLA and shows the power of zone

11     commanders.  If Your Honours are not agreeing that this is relevant, I'm

12     prepared to move on, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, it does arise as a question in my mind, at

14     least, to what extent the internal organisation of the KLA is going to be

15     relevant to the issues in this case.

16             MR. NEUNER:  Our position would be, Your Honours, that as part of

17     an armed conflict there must be two -- at least two forces which have an

18     internal structure --

19             JUDGE PARKER:  So you're seeking to prove that this was an

20     organised military structure?

21             MR. NEUNER:  Correct, Your Honours, and this is just one little

22     piece in this chain which we are trying to establish, inter alia, through

23     this witness, showing and demonstrating the internal organisation of that

24     adversary unit.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.  The relevance indicated by Mr. Neuner

Page 2421

 1     is valid, that is, to show that there was, in truth, a structured

 2     military force in opposition to the Serbian forces which is relevant to

 3     jurisdiction and offences.  The purpose of the document as advanced by

 4     the Prosecution is to demonstrate the working procedures of the KLA, and

 5     that, as a general background, is a relevant evidentiary area.

 6             For those reasons, Mr. Djurdjic, these questions are admissible

 7     and the evidence of this witness has been sufficiently established to

 8     indicate that he can speak about documents of this type.

 9             All of that having happened, we've run out of time, Mr. Neuner.

10             MR. NEUNER:  May I be allowed to just ask one question relating

11     to re-assignment and then seek to tender that document so that I don't

12     have to touch upon it tomorrow morning or afternoon?

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, you may.

14             MR. NEUNER:

15        Q.   Could you explain to Your Honours what a re-assignment order is,

16     please, in military terms?

17        A.   Yes.  Re-assignment is what an -- a superior officer does.  He

18     used to be part of the staff, and he has been appointed to another unit.

19     He was appointed from one unit to another.

20             MR. NEUNER:  Could I seek to tender this document with this

21     explanation --

22             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00439, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  We must now adjourn for the day.  We resume

25     tomorrow I believe in the morning, at 9.00.

Page 2422

 1             Mr. Zyrapi, we have now to adjourn for the night.  We continue at

 2     9.00 tomorrow morning.  The court staff will discuss with you during the

 3     break the arrangements for you to be here in the morning.  Thank you very

 4     much.

 5             We now adjourn.

 6                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,

 7                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 18th day of

 8                           March, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.