Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2489

 1                           Thursday, 19 March 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Good afternoon.  Mr. Zyrapi, the affirmation you

 7     made at the beginning of your evidence to tell the truth still applies,

 8     and Mr. Djurdjic is continuing his cross-examination.

 9             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10                           WITNESS:  BISLIM ZYRAPI [Resumed]

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. Djurdjic: [Continued]

13        Q.   Mr. Zyrapi, let's pick up where we left off yesterday.  Could you

14     please tell me, where were the training centres that the KLA had in

15     Albania in 1998 when you conducted the training?

16        A.   At the time I was staying in Albania, the training was conducted

17     with small groups.  One of the centres was in Qerret between Dures and

18     Kavaja.  Another one was in northern Albania close to Kukes.  It was an

19     old factory which was used for the training of groups of men.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Zyrapi, could you please tell me, In March 1999

21     who was the commander of the Karadak Operational Zone?

22        A.   In March 1999 the commander of the Karadak Operational Zone was

23     Ahmet Isufi.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell me what brigades were operating in the

25     area of responsibility of the Karadak Operational Zone?

Page 2490

 1        A.   Up until March I think there was only one brigade, 171.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  And after March?

 3        A.   I don't know after March because I handed over my post, and I

 4     don't know after that.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  You handed over the post on the 23rd or the

 6     24th of March, 1999.  So --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  April.

 8             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   -- so that would be the extent of your knowledge, that's what you

10     told me?

11        A.   Yes, up until then.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell me how many soldiers the KLA had in this

13     operational zone, Karadak Operational Zone, in March 1999?

14        A.   As far as I remember, there were very few of them, about 200 or

15     300, not more than that.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell me who was the commander of the

17     Lap Operational Zone in March 1999 when the NATO attack was launched?

18        A.   The commander of Llapi Operational Zone was Rrustem Mustafa.

19        Q.   Thank you.  How many brigades were there in the area of

20     responsibility of the Lap Operational Zone?

21        A.   There were three brigades.

22        Q.   Could you please tell me what brigades?

23        A.   151, 152, 153.

24        Q.   Could you tell me where was the command post of the 151st Brigade

25     and what was the area of responsibility of this brigade?

Page 2491

 1        A.   The 151st and 152nd were in the same area, I'm speaking about

 2     that time.  They did not have separate areas of responsibility.  While

 3     the 153rd was somewhere else.  I can't remember for the moment where the

 4     command was located.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And do you remember what area of responsibility the

 6     151st and the 152nd had, because you said that they were together, and

 7     what was the area of responsibility of the 153rd?

 8        A.   Their area of responsibility started from the Prishtine-Podujeve

 9     road on the left side of the road, included the Podujeve villages up to

10     the Bajgora villages.

11        Q.   Thank you.  And 153rd?

12        A.   The 153rd was on the right side of the Prishtine-Podujeve road,

13     including the villages of the Podujeve municipality, on that side of the

14     road.  I don't know how many there were and I don't know where the

15     command was.

16        Q.   Thank you.  And it extended all the way down to the

17     administrative border with the rest of Serbia; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Thank you.  How many fighters did the KLA have in this

20     operational zone in March 1999?

21        A.   I can't be exact, but I think there were about 2.000 or 3.000

22     men.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Zyrapi, could you please tell me who was the

24     commander of the Salja Operational Zone in March 1999?

25        A.   In March 1999 commander of the Shala Operative Zone was

Page 2492

 1     Rahman Rama.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell me, do you know where the

 3     command of the Salja Operational Zone was located at that time, in

 4     March 1999?

 5        A.   In March 1999 the commander of the Shala Operational Zone was in

 6     the village of Oshlan.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And could you tell me what brigades were operating in

 8     this area of responsibility, we're talking March 1999?

 9        A.   There were two brigades in this zone, 141 and 142nd.

10        Q.   Thank you.  And can you tell me as far as the 141st command is

11     concerned, where its command was and what its area of responsibility was,

12     if you can recall?

13        A.   The 141st was located in Cicavica -- the command was located in

14     Cicavica, but I can't remember now the exact name of the village in that

15     area.

16        Q.   Thank you.  And where was the command of the 142nd Brigade and

17     where its area of responsibility was?

18        A.   The 142nd was in Shala of Bajgora, and the command was located in

19     Bajgora.

20        Q.   Thank you.  I forgot to ask you this:  Where was the command of

21     the Karadak Operational Zone in March 1999?

22        A.   I can't remember where it was in March 1999.  They would move

23     about a lot, so I can't tell you where they were at the time.

24        Q.   Thank you.  And do you remember where the command of the

25     Lap Operational Zone was in March 1999?

Page 2493

 1        A.   I can't remember now the name of the village where it was.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Zyrapi, now as of March 1999 when the NATO

 3     air-strikes began, were there any meetings of the KLA staff with the

 4     commanders of the operational zones?

 5        A.   After March 1999, we were not able to have any contacts or to

 6     have meetings with the zone commanders as we used to do before that.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And when the -- after the NATO air-strikes began, did

 8     you have collegium meetings of the KLA General Staff?

 9        A.   No, because the General Staff was spread in different places at

10     the time, and they couldn't meet.

11        Q.   Thank you.  And during NATO air-strikes were elements of the

12     General Staff in Albania too?

13        A.   The logistics members were there, the Ministry of Defence members

14     were there, but most of the members of the General Staff were inside

15     Kosova.

16        Q.   Thank you.  And could you tell me who of the KLA General Staff

17     members were in Albania once the NATO air-strikes began?

18        A.   As I already said, members of the logistics department, the head

19     of logistics was Xhavit Haliti.  Azem Syla was there as well, but he was

20     not staff commander, but he was minister of defence at the time.  I was

21     there after April as a member of the Ministry of Defence.  In May/June

22     Sylejman Selimi was present there as well.  Other members were present as

23     well by the end of May and beginning of June, members of the -- such as

24     Thaqi, members of the government.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you.  Am I right when I say that you passed the

Page 2494

 1     decision to establish the brigades in February 1999?

 2        A.   No.  The decision to establish brigades was issued earlier, and

 3     it was not issued by me but by the department.  The brigades began to be

 4     formed in November, December, January, and some of the brigades were not

 5     fully established until the end of the war.  They were in a process of

 6     development up until the end of the war.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Zyrapi, yesterday when I asked you about the

 8     Pastrik Operational Zone you told me that 121st through 126th Brigade

 9     were operating there; but in this decision of the

10     Pastrik Operational Zone commander where areas of responsibility are

11     designated, I found that there was also a 127th Brigade in the

12     operational zone -- in the Pastrik Operational Zone.

13        A.   I explained it yesterday, where the brigades were.  There was a

14     decision to form another brigade, the 127th, but it was not formed.  So

15     the order was given, but it was not formed as a brigade.

16        Q.   Thank you.  That means that the decisions that we have need not

17     have been implemented to the full extent, as is indicated in them?

18        A.   Yes, the 127th is a case in point, it was not established as a

19     brigade.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Zyrapi, am I right when I say that in the

21     planning of large-scale operations, the political administration of the

22     KLA General Staff also took part in 1999, in March?

23        A.   Not always.  On some occasions they did.

24        Q.   Thank you.  I was referring to large-scale operations.  And now I

25     would like to know what operations involved the participation of the

Page 2495

 1     political administration in 1999.

 2        A.   During that period, they took part in the preparation of the

 3     Shigjeta Operation, the Arrow Operation.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Let's clarify.  That's the action to launch an attack

 5     from Albania in the Kosare border post area.  The attack was launched on

 6     the 9th of April, 1999; am I right?

 7        A.   Yes, it started on the 9th of April.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And did the political administration take part in the

 9     planning of any other operations?

10        A.   As far as I remember, no.

11        Q.   Thank you.  And could you now tell me, what operations were

12     planned by the staff, the Supreme Command Staff of the KLA, from the

13     24th of March, 1999, onwards until the time when you stopped being the

14     Chief of the General Staff?

15        A.   In addition to the Arrow Operation, there were plans for the

16     protection of the population, the defence of territories where the KLA

17     was operating.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Zyrapi, am I right in saying that you came over

19     to Metohija from Albania in March 1999, that -- and then took ten days to

20     travel to the area of Drenica?

21        A.   I entered in May 1998, 28th of May, not in March.  And the

22     journey continued for ten days until I reached Drenica.

23        Q.   Thank you.  My mistake.

24             Am I right in saying that you were tasked by the General Staff to

25     train troops of the KLA and to verify the capabilities of the local

Page 2496

 1     commanders?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right in saying that at the time there were no

 4     operational zones?

 5        A.   When I arrived in May there were no zones, the only exception

 6     being Drenica, and in June the Dukagjini Zone began to be formed and the

 7     other zones followed.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right in saying that from May 1998, when you

 9     came, until November 1998 that only Mr. Selimi, Mr. Bashota, and

10     Mr. Grabovci of all the members of the General Staff were in Kosovo,

11     sometimes Hashim Thaqi when he was not in Albania, but you always were on

12     the move, and you never were together in one place?

13        A.   Yes, it's correct.  In addition to Selimi, Bashota, and Grabovci,

14     Jakup Krasniqi was always in Kosova, while the others used to move

15     between Albania and Kosova.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right in saying that there was no daily

17     communication between members of the General Staff and the local

18     commanders?

19        A.   Yes, that's correct.  To my recollection, there was no

20     communication.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right in saying that apart from you, no other

22     member of the General Staff of the KLA had any experience of a

23     professional military officer, in 1998 while you were there?

24        A.   That's true as far as the General Staff is concerned, while in

25     the brigades there were professional soldiers involved.

Page 2497

 1        Q.   Mr. Zyrapi, I'm referring only to the May-to-November 1998

 2     period, not afterwards.  From the moment you came to Kosovo and Metohija

 3     until your appointment, that is the period that I'm asking you about.

 4        A.   That's correct, yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right in saying that local unit commanders were

 6     men of standing in the villages where those units operated?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Am I right in saying that on the 15th of June, 1998, in the

 9     Dukadjin valley a decision was taking on mobilisation?

10        A.   I don't know of a decision as such, but I know that at this time

11     the decision to form the Dukagjini Operational Zone was taken.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Let's see Exhibit P431.

14        Q.   And before this document is brought on the screen, Mr. Zyrapi,

15     and you saw it the day before yesterday and yesterday, these are minutes

16     from Duskaja, Glodjane, Baranski valley, Lusanska valley, and Drinska

17     valley staffs dated 29th of June, 1998.  We see who attended the meeting

18     here, and I meant to work on this document to reach the part I am

19     interested in.  On page 1 in the Albanian version, S majl, that's

20     Ramush Haradinaj if I'm correct, says we're dealing with the liberation

21     of the whole country through a general uprising.  Do you agree that at

22     the time in that part of Kosovo and Metohija that it went for a general

23     uprising or a liberation of a country through a general uprising?

24             MR. NEUNER:  Before the witness, answers I'm trying to find the

25     general uprising portion in the document if my learned colleague could

Page 2498

 1     please assist because the Prosecution can't follow.

 2             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Third paragraph from the beginning

 3     of the minutes, Smajl speaking, the last part of that sentence, it is

 4     about the liberation of the country through a general insurgency.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This shows that

 6     Mr. Ramush Haradinaj pointed out the fact that this is not a war of a

 7     group or of an individual but of the whole nation, that the liberation of

 8     the country should be carried out through a general insurgency, but it's

 9     a not a proclamation for mobilisation, it's not a call for mobilisation.

10             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] If I can get the interpretation of

11     the witness's answer, please.

12        Q.   Sorry, can I get the last part of your last answer.

13             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Interpreter, please.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that Mr. Ramush Haradinaj

15     pointed out the fact that a war is not a war of an individual or of a

16     group but of a whole nation, that this is a general uprising; however, by

17     saying this he is not proclaiming this situation of general uprising or

18     he's not calling for mobilisation, he's just expressing his opinion.

19             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Thank you.  Let's take a look at the last paragraph of the

21     minutes.  Mr. Major is being referred to.  Could you please explain who

22     that was.

23        A.   The Major at the time was Sali Veseli.

24        Q.   Mr. Zyrapi, I think it's supposed to be at the end of this page,

25     starts in Albanian with a sentence:

Page 2499

 1             "Tying the strategic operational axes in Junicko field, Keqe, and

 2     other parts of the Dukagjin is a prerequisites for the spread of the war

 3     and for supplies to those parts which are not supplied and which would

 4     lead to the final liberation of Kosovo."

 5             Does this go to the creation of a territory or a zone to be used

 6     for the supply of arms for the insurgency that we were talking about?

 7        A.   According to these meetings, it is about a zone or area that

 8     would facilitate the supply of the KLA.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Let's turn the page, please.  Let's go to page 2.

10     Below the first bold letters Smajl there's a paragraph attributed to

11     The Major.  After that The Major read the order to mobilise the

12     Junicko field dated the 15th of June, 1998.

13        A.   This is what the document says, yes.

14        Q.   There was an order in Junik area on mobilisation on the

15     15th of June, 1998?

16        A.   According to this document, yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'm going to ask you in the penultimate paragraph

18     Mr. Mala is speaking.  Could you please explain who that person was.

19        A.   Mala, as far as I remember, was a pseudonym of Alush Agushi.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Please take a look at the third sentence.  He says:

21             "What about the misuse of insignia, uniforms, and weapons?"

22             Could you please explain what Mr. Mala is referring to?

23        A.   I don't remember, but according to this document there were

24     misuse of insignia and uniforms at the time.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Let's go to the last paragraph.  Mr. Haradinaj, or

Page 2500

 1     Smajl, takes the floor in the first sentence and says:

 2             "To assist one another in future we have to supply weapons to the

 3     whole population above the age of 16."

 4             Did this mean that all the persons above the age of 16 would be

 5     taking part in the general insurgency and that they were to be provided

 6     with weapons?

 7        A.   It says 16 years of age, but to what I know it was 18 and older,

 8     persons of the age of 18 and older could join the KLA.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  But Mr. Haradinaj obviously thought that the age 16

10     was enough for somebody to be recruited and mobilised and able-bodied.

11     Let's continue.

12             Mr. Zyrapi, on the penultimate page, that would be page 4 in the

13     Albanian and 5 in English.  Mr. Zyrapi, I would like to quote Mr. Agron.

14     Could you please spell out his name.

15        A.   Agron is Rexhep Selimi, it's his pseudonym.

16        Q.   Thank you.  And Mr. Selimi is saying:

17             "I'm explaining to you that you can be called the

18     Local Operational Staff of the Plain of Dukagjin, while bearing in mind

19     the KLA's division into zones.  The whole of Kosovo is one operational

20     zone without ...  regions."

21             Could you please comment this.

22        A.   To what I know from the time I was there, the Kosova area,

23     overall area, was divided into operational zones, but maybe this is an

24     influence from the LPK, the patriotic movement that I mentioned, that

25     regarded Kosova as one zone.

Page 2501

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right in saying that local, commanders until

 2     autumn 1998, took independent and autonomous decisions on the actions

 3     that they would be undertaking?

 4        A.   For the area that I know and according to the information I had

 5     at the time, yes, that was so in some of them.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right in saying that until autumn 1998,

 7     General Staff of the KLA did not function in terms of the prevailing

 8     military doctrine?

 9        A.   To what I know, yes, it is so more or less.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right in saying that on the 18th of June, 1998,

11     there was an attack on a convoy of military and police vehicles at the

12     place called Iglarevo, in the Klina municipality, and that on that

13     occasion a number of persons were suffered, casualties or fatalities?

14        A.   I'm not familiar with this incident.  I was not there at the

15     time; and as I said, I don't know of this incident.

16        Q.   Excuse me, when -- where were you on the 18th of June, 1998?

17        A.   At the time I was in the territory of the Pashtrik Zone, touring

18     the units of the Pashtrik Operational Zone and assisting them.  So I was

19     not in this territory that you mentioned during this time, and I didn't

20     receive information about this incident.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Did you receive any information that there was a

22     blockade of the Pec-Prizren road and that, from the direction of Pec,

23     barricades were erected at the Dolac village, Klina municipality, and

24     from the direction of Pristina the barricades went up in the municipality

25     of Glogovac in the village of Lapusnik?

Page 2502

 1        A.   The blockade of the roads at Llapushnik and at the territory

 2     between Kijeve and Kline, I don't remember the exact name of the village,

 3     it is true that the roads were blocked there.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right in saying that Kijevo was blockaded for a

 5     month and that the KLA forces tried to capture Kijevo?

 6        A.   It is true that it was blocked; however, I don't know whether it

 7     was captured or not during this period.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  I did not say "captured," but there were attacks with

 9     the intent to capture Kijevo?

10        A.   I don't remember.  I know that the road was blocked, but for

11     these attacks with this intention, I'm not familiar with.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Is it known to you that Tahir Zemaj issued an order

13     to block the Pec-Pristina road?

14        A.   You're referring to June 1998?  No.

15        Q.   Very well.  Am I right in saying that in the Lapusnik village

16     there was a KLA prison in that period, in 1998, summer of 1998?

17        A.   From what I remember, no.

18        Q.   Do you remember whether at any point in time there was a prison

19     in Lapusnik, and in which period if you do remember?

20        A.   To my recollection, no, there wasn't in any period, not in 1998,

21     not in 1999.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Is it known to you that the KLA captured the Obilic

23     thermo-electric plant in 1998?

24        A.   I have information that this happened, that KLA entered an area

25     of Mirash and had it under its control for some time.

Page 2503

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know any information that a bus belonging to

 2     the thermo power-plant of Obilic with nine passengers was abducted at

 3     roughly the same time?

 4        A.   No, I have no information about that because I was not in this

 5     territory at the time.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right in saying that in July 1998 you became

 7     chief of the operational administration of the General Staff of the KLA,

 8     I think it was on the 15th of July?

 9        A.   Yes, that's correct.  In mid-July I was appointed chief of the

10     operational department of the General Staff of the KLA.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right in saying that at the time, in 1998 when

12     you were appointed chief of the operational section of the General Staff

13     of the KLA, that the KLA held 40 to 50 territories in Kosovo and Metohija

14     under their control was centred around Malis [as interpreted]?

15        A.   I don't remember the exact percentage, but quite a big part of

16     this territory was under its control, yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.  What I just put to you is -- I don't know if you

18     recall that interview that you gave to the Zeri, that's when you

19     mentioned the percentages.  Do you now recall now?  Have I jogged your

20     memory?

21        A.   When I was interviewed, most probably I did give the percentage,

22     yes.

23        Q.   Thank you.  And you, in fact, added that the policy pursued by

24     the Bukoshi's government was better -- had it been better and had the

25     cooperation with the army been better, then greater amount of territory

Page 2504

 1     would have been taken; do you recall that?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right in saying that the KLA in July 1998 wanted

 4     to place another town under its control, another town apart from

 5     Malisevo?

 6        A.   In July at the time, the aim of the KLA was to spread the

 7     territory, and when I became head of operations I began to tour the area

 8     of responsibility of Dukagjin; however, I was not aware of such

 9     intentions to capture a town or another territory.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Yes, I'm looking for that part of the interview that

11     you gave to the Zeri where you noted that in addition to Malisevo --

12     well, I don't want to waste our time on that.  It's not so important.

13     Thank you.  Let's move on.  Am I right when I say that in the summer of

14     1998, it was widely known that the Albanian civilians were killed by the

15     KLA for alleged cooperation or collaboration with Serbia?

16        A.   At the time, I didn't know who.  I did hear this as an

17     information, but I didn't have any other knowledge, concrete knowledge.

18        Q.   Thank you.  And am I right that the General Staff of the KLA

19     informed the public about that?

20        A.   I'm not saying it didn't, but I wasn't involved.

21        Q.   Mr. Zyrapi, I'm not saying that you took part, that this was done

22     under your control, but what about your information and knowledge about

23     that?

24        A.   Only rumours, but not correct, accurate information.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right in saying that the KLA General Staff and

Page 2505

 1     KLA generally never undertook investigations about the murders and

 2     killings of Albanian civilians loyal to Serbia?

 3        A.   As far as I remember, in 1998, no.

 4             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the usher to

 5     bring up D002-20-51 paragraph 37, please.  That would be page 7 in

 6     English, in my version.  No indication of page in Albanian.

 7        Q.   Can you see paragraph 37, please?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Mr. Zyrapi, that is your statement which you gave on the

10     25th of November, 2005.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Is it true what is stated in your statement?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

16     tender this paragraph 37 as evidence, it's paragraph 37.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  At the moment we haven't seen an English text,

18     Mr. Djurdjic.

19             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.  That

20     would be page 7 in English.  Yes, page 7, last paragraph on that page.

21             [In English] Yes, I have ...

22             [Interpretation] Your Honour -- well, if there's an error, I can

23     read it.  Perhaps it would be a good idea.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Something, I believe, is happening now.

25             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Sir, I can tell you that's D000 --

Page 2506

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  We -- the problem is an English version cannot be

 2     located in e-court.  We will mark for identification paragraph 37 of the

 3     statement of the 25th of November, 2005, and perhaps you can take it up

 4     with the Registry staff after we have sat today.  And when we find an

 5     English version of it, it can be admitted as an exhibit.

 6             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I have

 7     the ERN number of -- for the whole of the statement that Mr. Zyrapi gave

 8     on the 25th of November, 2005, but let us move on.  Thank you.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be D00060 MFI, Your Honours.

10             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Mr. Zyrapi, in July 1998 were you in the Dukadjin Valley?

12        A.   Yes, in July 1998 I was in the Dukagjin Plain.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And the KLA General Staff, did it decide to attack

14     Orahovac on the 17th, 18th, and 19th of July, 1998?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Thank you.  And do you know who made this decision to launch an

17     attack on Orahovac?

18        A.   According to what I know, I was a member of the staff at the

19     time, I was direct -- head of the operations department, and none of the

20     members of the staff gave that order to attack Rahovec.

21        Q.   Thank you.  I'm asking you whether you learned who had issued the

22     order to attack Orahovac?

23             MR. NEUNER:  Just could I ask my learned colleague, I've listened

24     to this line of questioning.  So far this witness has not confirmed that

25     even an attack on Orahovac occurred.  Could you maybe clarify that first

Page 2507

 1     with the witness, so that we see what the basis of the witness's answers

 2     are.  Suggesting to him that attack orders were filed, don't help us at

 3     this point in time if the witness doesn't even recall whether there was

 4     an attack on that town in July 1998.  Thank you.

 5             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, my learned colleague,

 6     but there is an entire statement made by this witness about the knowledge

 7     about the attack on Orahovac and his stay in Orahovac.  That's why I

 8     didn't do it gradually to lay the foundations; and secondly, this is the

 9     cross-examination.

10        Q.   So, Mr. Zyrapi, do you know or did you learn at any point who

11     issued the order to attack Orahovac?

12        A.   According to some inquiries I made at the time, it was the

13     commander of the unit that was in Rahovec organised the attack, but he

14     was killed.  It was impossible to confirm that with him.

15        Q.   Thank you.  How many days did the KLA hold Orahovac?

16        A.   I can't remember how long they held Rahovec because I was not

17     there.  On the 18th and 19th of July I returned from Dukagjin, and at

18     that time Rahovec was not under KLA control.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And did you meet Mr. Hashim Thaqi near Orahovac at

20     the time when you went there yourself?

21        A.   Yes, I met all the members of the General Staff, including

22     Hashim Thaqi, upon my return.

23        Q.   Can you tell me where you actually met with Mr. Thaqi?

24        A.   I met Mr. Thaqi outside Rahovec.  The place is called

25     Rasat e Rahovecit.  There I also met the other members of the General

Page 2508

 1     Staff.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right that Mr. Thaqi ordered that the road be

 3     cut off with a bulldozer?

 4        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Zyrapi, do you know how many civilians were

 6     killed by the KLA in Orahovac during the time that it was in its hands?

 7        A.   I've never had that information at my disposal, what you're

 8     mentioning now, the number of civilians killed by the KLA.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And do you know that some civilians were arrested and

10     taken to the prison in Malisevo?

11        A.   No.  When I went there, there were Albanian civilians who were

12     leaving Rahovec and were trying to get shelter in other parts of the

13     country, such as in Suhareke.

14        Q.   Thank you.  And do you know that the KLA had its prison in

15     Malisevo?

16        A.   There wasn't a prison there at that period.

17        Q.   Do you know that in July 1998 the KLA attacked the village of

18     Terusa [as interpreted]?

19        A.   I heard that there was an attack in Opterusa, but I was not

20     there, I was outside the territory of the Pashtrik Zone.  I was in

21     another zone in the outskirts of Prizren.  It's there that I heard about

22     it.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Well -- but isn't Prizren in the Pastrik Zone?

24        A.   Yes, it is, but at that time in June/July, it had not been formed

25     yet.  There was no command yet.

Page 2509

 1        Q.   Thank you.  You said that on the 19th you were close to Orahovac?

 2        A.   Yes, when I returned from Dukagjin, I was there on the 19th.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Well, how far is the place where you were from

 4     Opterusa?

 5        A.   As the crow flies, I would say 15 or 20 kilometres.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And did you hear that the KLA attacked and liberated

 7     Retimlje on the 17th of July?

 8        A.   No, I didn't hear about that.  At that time I was in the

 9     Dukagjini Plain area.

10        Q.   And did you hear that the KLA liberated Zociste, that was on the

11     21st of July, 1998?

12        A.   No, no.  The 21st of July there were fightings at that time, not

13     only there but also in Bllace, in the direction of Llapushnik.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that the KLA imposed a tax to finance its

15     activities and that civilians had to pay this tax?

16        A.   Which period are you referring to?

17        Q.   I'm referring to the period from the time when you came to

18     Kosovo and Metohija, so May 1998, throughout your stay there.

19        A.   I don't have any information about that.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to have on our

22     screens P00439.

23        Q.   Mr. Zyrapi, the date here is the 2nd of July.  It's a decision on

24     assignment.  Could you please explain to me what -- to what post is

25     Officer Ujku assigned?

Page 2510

 1        A.   I cannot see it here in this document, what kind of duty he was

 2     being assigned to.  He is just being transferred or reassigned, but it

 3     does not say anything about the task he was given.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  But this is not a document on the transfer from one

 5     post to another; am I right?

 6        A.   No, from one unit to another, which means reassignment.

 7        Q.   Mr. Zyrapi, please listen to me, you can't see that from this

 8     document.  What is the sense of this document?

 9        A.   The commander of the operational zone has issued a document

10     called reassignment, which reassigns the officer, Ujku, from the

11     Dukagjini Operational Zone to the Dujake village, but it does not say

12     what post he is supposed to take there.

13        Q.   Mr. Zyrapi, I'm sorry, but is the village of Dujak outside of the

14     Dukadjin Operational Zone?

15        A.   It is in the Dukagjini Zone.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have document P441

18     on our screens, please.

19        Q.   Mr. Zyrapi, this is a document that you yourself signed.  The

20     date is the 28th of November, 1998, it is sent to the commanders of the

21     operational zones.  Now I want to know -- I want you to explain what it

22     says in item 1 of this order.

23             "The operational zone commanders are to increase checks and to

24     involve the members of the command, the military police commanders, to

25     urgently stamp out any negative trends and the abuse of persons and

Page 2511

 1     private property."

 2             Could you please explain to me what incidents are you talking

 3     about here?

 4        A.   This order, speaking about negative phenomena, is based on the

 5     complaints of zone commanders, about people who had moved from one area

 6     to another, had taken property from people without issuing any kind of

 7     certificate.  This order attempts to do this to increase the control of

 8     the zone commanders in order for them to stop this kind of phenomenon.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And who abused persons?

10        A.   According to reports, there were some soldiers from some units

11     doing those kinds of things.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And could you explain to me item 3, what kinds of

13     inappropriate behaviour are we talking about, inappropriate behaviour

14     towards civilians?

15        A.   I mean the same thing on the basis of the complaints or reports I

16     received from the zone commanders, but also from the civilian population,

17     about incorrect or inappropriate behaviour by KLA soldiers towards people

18     and their property; and this order attempts to address exactly that.

19        Q.   Thank you.  You issued this order in order to stamp out those

20     kinds of behaviour that you listed in this order; am I right?

21        A.   Yes.  It is in the framework of taking disciplinary measures to

22     stamp out negative phenomena.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have just a few

25     documents to go through with the witness, so perhaps I could do that

Page 2512

 1     after the technical break because I think the time has come for it now.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  We will resume at 4.15.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5                           --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

 7             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Before we

 8     bring in the witness, I've been informed that this glitch in the e-court

 9     has been eliminated and under D0024953 marks the English translation of

10     the witness's statement taken on the 25th November 2005, and hereby I

11     move for that transcript or that statement to be tendered into evidence,

12     please.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  I thought it was only paragraph 37 that you had

14     tendered.  Well, that being so, the document marked for identification as

15     D60 will become Exhibit D60.

16             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

17                           [The witness takes the stand]

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

19             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20             I would like to ask the usher to bring up P437, please.

21        Q.   Mr. Zyrapi, this is your order dated 20th January 1999.  In

22     paragraph 1 of this order you order to operation zone commanders to

23     compile regular daily combat reports in the morning between 10.00 and

24     11.00 hours and in the evening between 20 and 2100 hours.  What is the

25     purpose of such regular daily combat reports, if you could explain to us,

Page 2513

 1     please.

 2        A.   The order that was issued and the request that they report was in

 3     order to have a clear idea of what was going on in the operational zones.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right in saying that the failure to submit such

 5     reports would bring criminal responsibility over the commander of the

 6     operational zone in question?

 7        A.   Yes, if they did not send in the reports, then they would.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Zyrapi, am I right in saying that at the time the

 9     Kosovo Verification Mission was in Kosovo and Metohija?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.  We've dealt with this document.

12             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please bring up

13     document P442, please.

14        Q.   Mr. Zyrapi, I would like you to explain this order by the

15     commander of the Pastrik Operational Zone.  Am I right in saying that the

16     military police does not carry out investigating judge's instructions if

17     they do not have an order to do so by the operational zone commander?

18        A.   The order says that if the investigating judge has asked to carry

19     out investigations in the zone, that request is sent to the military

20     police, but the military police needs the approval of the zone commander

21     to execute it.

22        Q.   Thank you.  But this does not have anything to do with

23     investigations.  So I am right in saying that an operational zone

24     commander has to issue an order to the military police so that the

25     military police can carry out orders of the investigating judge?

Page 2514

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Which means that a military court investigating judge

 3     is not autonomous in his work, particularly in terms of having his orders

 4     carried out?

 5        A.   The order has been executed, but in order for him to be able to

 6     use the military police of that zone, the zone commander needed give that

 7     order.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  But you are a career officer, and you know that

 9     instructions of the military investigating judges are to be carried out,

10     military police organs, and military organisations; am I right in

11     presuming so?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like

15     Mr. Usher to bring up P435 on the screen, please -- page first, please.

16     Thank you.

17             Could we please go to page 2 of this document.

18             Your Honours, I would like a previous explanation.  There is a

19     set of decisions in this exhibit, 304, that I received from the OTP.  I

20     would like to know whether all documents submitted to me have been

21     tendered into evidence and accepted; and if not all of them, then which

22     of them were because those documents do not have any interconnections.

23     They come from different structures even.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  All of them have become an exhibit, the one

25     exhibit.

Page 2515

 1             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Then I will deal with

 2     only those that I'm interested in.  Please go to page 02460.  If I may of

 3     assistance, it is an attack order without a date, and it concerns the

 4     Pastrik Operational Zone.

 5             MR. NEUNER:  To assist, I believe it's the next page, yes.

 6             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7        Q.   Mr. Zyrapi, could you please tell us, since there is no date on

 8     this document, when was this document issued if it's known to you judging

 9     by its contents?

10        A.   First of all, this document and the documents we saw earlier are

11     documents used in the training of battalion commanders.  They served as a

12     template, as an example, how to train battalion commanders.  They are not

13     orders in their full meaning.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Does this document contain forms or templates that

15     you used for training?

16        A.   Yes, it's a sample document used in that training, as are the

17     other documents that I have produced.

18        Q.   Thank you.  But I'm a bit confused because one bears the

19     signature of Ekrem Rexha, and there is a stamp dated the

20     4th of February, 1999.  But thank you.  I will accept that these were

21     just templates and had no force.

22             Another question:  Where were you between 25th of March, 1999,

23     until 2nd of April, 1999?

24        A.   On the 25th of March, I was at the command in Divjake.  On the

25     26th I went to the commander of the Pashtrik Operational Zone; and I was

Page 2516

1     stationed in the Pashtrik Operational Zone and in the Berisha area,

 2     moving around this territory, until April 1999, 2nd April.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please remind me where the commander of the

 4     Pastrik Operational Zone was at the time, 26th?

 5        A.   On the 26th I went to his command in Nishor village.

 6        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Zyrapi.  I have no further questions for you.

 7             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, for your

 8     patience.  I have concluded my cross-examination.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Djurdjic.

10             Now, Mr. Neuner, is there any re-examination?

11             MR. NEUNER:  Very few, Your Honours, probably I can deal with

12     this in two or three minutes.

13                           Re-examination by Mr. Neuner:

14        Q.   Witness, you were asked today and yesterday by my learned

15     colleague about combat operations from the KLA.  What I'm interested in

16     is:  Could you tell us briefly what was the reaction of the civilian

17     population towards combat operations carried out by the KLA?

18        A.   If you can be more specific about the operations.  Which

19     operations?

20        Q.   For example, you mentioned Operation Arrow in your evidence.  I'm

21     interested, so to speak, whether the civilian population, as the result

22     of Operation Arrow, had to leave certain territories?

23        A.   The Operation Arrow was carried out at the border area between

24     Albania and Kosova; however, the other operations mentioned here carried

25     by the KLA had as their goal the defence of the territories, the

Page 2517

 1     evacuation of the population, and finding shelter for the population.  So

 2     in these type of operations, there was no specific reaction of the

 3     population toward us.

 4        Q.   I want to be a little bit more specific --

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

 6             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask for

 7     interpretation of this witness's answer, please, the one -- the answer to

 8     the last question, please.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  [Microphone not activated]

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for His Honour, please.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Are you able to say whether you are now getting

12     Serbian interpretation?

13             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I understand it.  I read

14     it in English.  Please.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

16             Carry on, please, Mr. Neuner.

17             MR. NEUNER:

18        Q.   I want to be a little bit more specific.  You said this

19     Operation Arrow was in the border area between Albania and Kosovo.  Was

20     through that or as a result of that operation any civilian population

21     moved from a territory?

22        A.   During this operation at this territory there was no population.

23     It had moved earlier from that territory.

24        Q.   Do you know the reason why the population had moved earlier away

25     from that territory?

Page 2518

 1        A.   During even the earlier Serb offensive, the proposition was

 2     expelled from the villages and was sent to Albania and other directions.

 3        Q.   Can I just ask you:  Do you recall a KLA operation which resulted

 4     in the permanent removal of the local population from its own territory?

 5     And I'm referring to the period 1998 till 1999.

 6        A.   To my recollection, no.

 7        Q.   Do you recall any KLA operation which caused that the population

 8     in Kosovo or part thereof had to move across the border into Albania or

 9     Macedonia in order to escape the KLA operation?

10        A.   To what I know, no.

11             MR. NEUNER:  The Prosecution has no further questions, Your

12     Honour.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Zyrapi, you'll be pleased to know that that

15     concludes the questions for you.  The Chamber would like to thank you for

16     your assistance with the answers you've given and for your being prepared

17     to come to The Hague once again.  You are now excused, and the court

18     officer will assist you out.  Thank you indeed.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20                           [The witness withdrew]

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Ms. Kravetz.

22             MS. KRAVETZ:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  The next Prosecution

23     witness is Mr. Jose-Pablo Baraybar.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

25                           [The witness entered court]

Page 2519

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Good afternoon.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Would you please read aloud the affirmation that

 4     is shown to you on the card.

 5             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

 6     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 7                           WITNESS:  JOSE-PABLO BARAYBAR

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down.

 9             Now, Ms. Kravetz, you have some questions for the witness?

10             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11                           Examination by Ms. Kravetz:

12        Q.   Good afternoon, Witness.  Could you please start by stating your

13     full name and present occupation for the record.

14        A.   My name is Jose-Pablo Baraybar.  Shall I spell that?  My first

15     name is J-o-s-e, the second one is P-a-b-l-o, my last name

16     B-a-r-a-y-b-a-r.  I am the executive director of the

17     Peruvian Forensic Anthropology Team by its acronym EPAF.

18        Q.   And what are you by profession, Mr. Baraybar?

19        A.   I'm a forensic anthropologist.

20        Q.   In June 2002 where were you employed?

21        A.   I was the head of the office on missing persons and forensics, by

22     its acronym OMPF, by the United Nations Mission in Kosovo.

23        Q.   And when did you cease your employment with OMPF?

24        A.   I ceased my employment with the UN as a whole on the

25     1st of May of 2007.

Page 2520

 1        Q.   In 2006, in late October and early November 2006, did you provide

 2     a statement to the Office of the Prosecution of this Tribunal?

 3        A.   That is correct.

 4        Q.   Before coming to court today, did you have the opportunity to

 5     review this statement?

 6        A.   Yes, I did.

 7        Q.   And having reviewed this statement, are you satisfied that the

 8     information contained in the statement is true and accurate to the best

 9     of your knowledge and belief?

10        A.   Yes, it is.

11        Q.   Did you also provide an expert report to the

12     Office of the Prosecution?

13        A.   Yes, I did.

14        Q.   And what is the main topic of your report?

15        A.   The main topic is examination of forensic inspection of the

16     remains that were found in Serbia proper in three mass graves and were

17     then returned upon identification to Kosovo to the custody of my former

18     office.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The witness is kindly

20     asked to pause before answering for interpretation.  Thank you.

21             MS. KRAVETZ:

22        Q.   Mr. Baraybar, I note that you don't have your headphones on.

23     Since we're both speaking the same language, you need to wait -- make a

24     pause between question and answer so everything is recorded.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  We are being translated into a number of other

Page 2521

 1     languages as well, and we have to allow time for the process.  Gradually

 2     you'll get used to the pausing.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4             MS. KRAVETZ:

 5        Q.   You were explaining the main topic of your report.  Is it correct

 6     that your report is attached to your statement as appendix C?

 7        A.   That is correct.

 8             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honours, I seek to tender both the statement

 9     and the report, this is 65 ter 02794.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  First the statement will be received.

11             MS. KRAVETZ:  It's the same 65 ter number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00453, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  And the report ...

14                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00454, Your Honours.

16             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17        Q.   Mr. Baraybar, did you also prepare a corrigendum to page 11 of

18     your report, which is a corrigendum to one of the graphs on this page of

19     the report?

20        A.   Yes, I did.

21             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honours, I seek to tender this one page into

22     evidence, it's 02795.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00455, Your Honours.

25             MS. KRAVETZ:

Page 2522

 1        Q.   Appendix A to your statement contains your CV which I don't

 2     intend to go through in detail as its self-explanatory, but I would ask

 3     you if you can briefly summarise your academic training in the field of

 4     forensic anthropology for the Court.

 5        A.   Certainly.  I have a Bachelor of Arts, a B.A. in archaeology from

 6     University of San Marcos in Lima, Peru.  I have a Master's of Science at

 7     the University of London, combining bio-archaeology, physical

 8     anthropology, and forensics.  I am currently finishing my doctorate in

 9     science at the University of Strasbourg, in France.

10        Q.   Thank you.  And since you provided your CV to the Office of the

11     Prosecution in October, 2006, have you published any peer review articles

12     in your field?

13        A.   Yes, I have.  Actually, they were published between 2007 and 2008

14     primarily, including a book co-authored with a colleague of mine,

15     Erin Kimmerle on skeletal trauma within human rights violations and

16     modern warfare; it is a textbook, so to speak.

17        Q.   And you told us that you're currently employed in the Peruvian

18     forensic anthropology institute.  What are your current tasks within this

19     organisation?

20        A.   I am a member of the Peruvian forensic anthropology team.  It's a

21     non-profit organisation who advocates on the use of forensic sciences in

22     the search of the missing during the internal conflict of Peru between

23     1980 and 2000.  I was appointed as executive director based on my

24     qualifications, experience, exposure, I would say.  Primarily I advise

25     the team on forensic issues and strategy issues.

Page 2523

 1        Q.   And before testifying in this case, have you previously testified

 2     in other cases as an expert witness in this Tribunal?

 3        A.   I have indeed.  As a matter of fact, I was also the resident

 4     forensic expert of this Tribunal between 1996 and 2002, first in the

 5     Rwanda Tribunal and in this Tribunal; and yes, I have testified in a

 6     number of cases in this Tribunal.

 7             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honours, I seek to tender appendix A, this is

 8     the witness's curriculum vitae, which is attached to his statement.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Um --

10             MS. KRAVETZ:  Unless it's going to be --

11             JUDGE PARKER:  I had rather assumed it was part of the statement.

12             MS. KRAVETZ:  Okay.  If it's going to be entered -- since the

13     report got a different number, I was tendering it separately.  That's

14     fine, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  The report has a different number because of its

16     separate significance.

17             MS. KRAVETZ:  That's fine.  Thank you, Your Honours.

18        Q.   Mr. Baraybar, before we turn to your report, I want to ask you

19     some questions about your statement.  In your statement you describe the

20     procedures and protocols that were in place to repatriate the mortal

21     remains found in clandestine mass graves in Serbia, you speak about three

22     such mass graves, Batajnica, lake Perucac, and Petrovo Selo, to Kosovo.

23     Could you tell us when the first repatriation of mortal remains found at

24     these mass graves from Serbia to Kosovo was organised?

25        A.   Certainly.  In November 2002, we must remember that the office of

Page 2524

 1     missing persons and forensics was opened in June 2002.  By November 2002

 2     the first repatriation of eight, if I recall well, sets of remains took

 3     place from Serbia to Kosovo.  These were the remains found at the site of

 4     Petrovo Selo under code PS in the report.  This was arranged at the time

 5     with the forensic institute in Nis, and one of the three protocols you

 6     mention, that is the protocol on the repatriation of mortal remains.

 7        Q.   And I understand from your statement that the exhumations of the

 8     mortal remains found at these three sites where the mass graves were

 9     discovered were carried out prior to the establishment of OMPF; is that

10     correct?

11        A.   That is correct.

12        Q.   Now, in your statement when you're referring to one of these two

13     protocols, the protocol on exchange of forensic experts and expertise,

14     you refer to the fact that the mortal remains were re-exhumed from the

15     holding facilities where they were in Serbia and that an OMPF was present

16     during these examinations and also to ensure the secure transport to

17     Kosovo.  When did this take place that OMPF experts began to attend the

18     re-exhumation of bodies?

19        A.   If -- again, I think from my recollection, having been a long

20     time now, this happened in November 2002 with the first eight sets of

21     remains.  There was always an OMPF representative present when these

22     activities took place.  If I recall well, the Petrovo Selo remains were

23     actually reburied in a cemetery or something of the kind and were still

24     temporary holding facility, but was like a cemetery, they were buried;

25     while the remains from Batajnica, for example, in Belgrade, were kept in

Page 2525

 1     some kind of underground tunnel or bunker or something of the kind, close

 2     to the Danube; that's what I recall.  But in any occasion there was

 3     somebody present from my office or former office to oversee the process

 4     and accompany the remains back to Kosovo.

 5        Q.   And I understand from your statement that these remains were

 6     identified as coming from Kosovo based on DNA samples and testing done by

 7     the OMPF; is that correct?

 8        A.   It is correct.  However, the first eight sets of remains did not

 9     have at the time DNA results, as such.  As a matter of fact, we were able

10     to obtain from the Serb authorities photographs of the clothing of the

11     dead, meaning Petrovo Selo in this case, and organised an exhibition of

12     the photographs of the clothing for family members to identify some of

13     the items of clothing, they were so identified; and based on that, we

14     drew a number of presumptive identifications of these eight people upon

15     discussion with our colleagues in Nis.  And based on that, these bodies

16     were returned to Kosovo.  All the other remains that came afterwards did

17     come, however, with DNA results.

18        Q.   And did the DNA results for these eight set of remains, the first

19     eight set of remains, become available subsequently?

20        A.   Yes, it did.

21        Q.   Now, when you prepared your report and you gave this statement to

22     the OTP, had the repatriation of remains from Serbia to Kosovo been

23     concluded or was it still ongoing?

24        A.   No, it had concluded.

25        Q.   Do you recall approximately when this process was concluded, if

Page 2526

 1     you recall?

 2        A.   I do not recall exactly.  I would say it happened early 2006 most

 3     likely, but again it is just based on my recollection.  I could not be

 4     totally precise on that.

 5        Q.   Now, in paragraph 29 of your statement you speak about the chain

 6     of custody of how these remains were transferred from -- to Serbia and

 7     later handed over to OMPF, and you indicate that when they were handed

 8     over, OMPF proceeded to give or carry out a forensic inspection.  Can you

 9     explain what's the purpose of these forensic inspections?

10        A.   Well, the issue is the following:  We at the time were under

11     tremendous pressure, of course, of the families primarily in Kosovo to

12     guarantee in a way that the remains that have actually come from Serbia

13     had or not DNA results were the remains of their loved ones.  And based

14     on this, what we needed to do is contrast in a way the inventory we had

15     received with the remains that were contained in the body-bag.  Every

16     started as a cursory examination to say there is a body in the bag and

17     reports are referring to one body as well.

18             The problem then became that these inspection or examination

19     became something slightly more complicated when we found some

20     inconsistencies between the contents of the bag and what was stated on

21     the report.

22             To give you an example, we may find the remains of multiple

23     individuals within a bag that allegedly contained the remains of one

24     single person.  Obviously, the DNA results spoke about one person and not

25     many people being identified.  Therefore, we could not just return the

Page 2527

 1     remains as they were to the families.  So the forensic inspection became

 2     like a second examination, certainly a much more cursory examination, but

 3     a second examination that looked at whether we had only one person or

 4     more than one; and second, whether there was some kind of coincidence

 5     between the description in the autopsy report we received from the

 6     Serbian authorities and what actually was there.

 7        Q.   So just so we're clear, when you said it became a bit more

 8     complicated because there were inconsistencies between the contents of

 9     the bag and what was stated in the report, you were referring to the

10     reports that accompanied each set of remains?

11        A.   That is correct.  The autopsy report provided by the Serbian

12     authorities from any of the forensic institutes that participated in the

13     examination.

14        Q.   And who would normally participate in these forensic inspections?

15        A.   At OMPF we had multi-disciplinary teams of pathologists,

16     anthropologists, radiographers, scene of crime officers, sometimes even

17     an odontologist that was present during these inspections.

18        Q.   Did you yourself participate in any of these forensic

19     inspections?

20        A.   In quite many of them.  I could not really give you a precise

21     number, but in a few dozens of them I was present and actually conducting

22     some of them myself.

23        Q.   You spoke about there being a pathologist as a member of the team

24     that conducted these forensic inspections.  What would be the role of a

25     pathologist during these inspections?

Page 2528

 1        A.   The pathologist is normally a person who would certify the cause

 2     of death, and that is why in the reports that I submitted together with

 3     my statement back then, the signature of the -- of the inspection report

 4     would be done by a pathologist, the one specifying or certifying that

 5     these persons died of this or that.

 6        Q.   And what would be the role of something like yourself, a forensic

 7     anthropologist?

 8        A.   Well, you know that when people are killed and time passes,

 9     tissues decay, decompose, and sometimes disappear.  What is normally left

10     are only bones.  Pathologists are medical doctors trained primarily to

11     work with soft tissues, with organs of some kind; and anthropologists are

12     trained to work with bones.

13             In order to determine the most probable cause of death, meaning

14     what is the injury that likely killed a person, an anthropologist, in

15     order to assist the pathologist, must reconstruct as much broken bones as

16     possible.  Violent death in general terms is accompanied -- I'm being

17     very general here - with broken bones.  So it is some kind of a jig-saw

18     puzzle, if you wish, besides certainly normal other determinations like

19     age, sex, height, handedness, and things of the kind.

20        Q.   And were your findings during these forensic inspections recorded

21     in any way?

22        A.   Certainly.  I provided back then a form, a forensic inspection

23     form, per each body that was examined.  So every body or body-bag, let's

24     put it that way, that came from Serbia at the time was accompanied by an

25     autopsy protocol from the Serbian authorities; and to this one we

Page 2529

 1     attached, after we finished our examination, another short summary form

 2     indicating the findings of the forensic inspection.

 3        Q.   Were the standards that were applied during these forensic

 4     inspection reports appropriate or accepted standards in international

 5     science of -- forensic science?

 6        A.   Most definitely.  They were, and they are.

 7        Q.   And was also a death certificate produced at the conclusion of

 8     these forensic inspections?

 9        A.   That is correct.  If I may elaborate just for a second, just for

10     the sake of clarification.  We received in addition to the autopsy

11     protocol from the Serbian authorities, death certificate reflecting what

12     the Serbian experts have actually found during the examination.  We

13     produced a second death certificate based on our forensic inspection.

14     Mind you, there was also obviously a political issue, sensitive issue, to

15     provide, at the time, Albanian families with death certificate that was

16     written in Cyrillic.  I mean, it was really politically incorrect at the

17     time to do such a thing.

18             MS. KRAVETZ:  Could we please have Exhibit 02394 -- this is

19     65 ter 02394 up on the screen.  And I would like page 1 of that exhibit.

20     If we could zoom in on the document a bit.

21        Q.   Sir, do you recognise the document that is there before us?

22        A.   Yes, I do.

23        Q.   Can you explain what this is?

24        A.   This is the death certificate that OMPF -- one of which parts was

25     the office of the medical examiner issued, a standard death certificate

Page 2530

 1     issued in any type of case.  So it could be a so-called historical case,

 2     such as the one dealing with missing persons, or it could be a recent

 3     case of a recent homicide or traffic accident or whatever.

 4        Q.   We see that right under the name of the person here identified

 5     there is a code which starts with a 2Ba and it says 006.  Do you know

 6     what that is?

 7        A.   That is the code that each of the body-bags had.  That is the

 8     code that was given to the remains exhumed by the Serbian authorities.

 9        Q.   So if I understand correctly, this code was assigned by Serbian

10     authorities and you maintained the same code in your -- the death

11     certificates that were issued by OMPF?

12        A.   That is correct.

13        Q.   And what would the Ba stand for, 2Ba reference number?

14        A.   Batajnica, the site of Batajnica.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MS. KRAVETZ:  Could we turn the page, please, next page.  And if

17     we could zoom in on the top of the page.

18        Q.   So we have here that the cause of death is set out as gun-shot to

19     the head, chest, and to the right arm.  Would this have been the cause of

20     death that was established during the forensic inspection of these

21     remains?

22        A.   That is correct.

23             MS. KRAVETZ:  Could we go to page 3, please.

24        Q.   Do you recognise this document?

25        A.   Yes, I do.

Page 2531

 1        Q.   Can you explain what it is.

 2             MS. KRAVETZ:  If we could zoom out of the document a bit.

 3             THE WITNESS:  This is the forensic inspection report that is the

 4     summary of findings after the forensic inspection.  After we received the

 5     body-bag, we opened the body-bag at the mortuary, we laid out the

 6     remains, we re-examined them.  And as you see, the level of detail is

 7     certainly less than a full autopsy, but nevertheless detailed enough as

 8     to account, for example, for injuries and these kind of things.

 9             MS. KRAVETZ:

10        Q.   We see here that we only have the code, 2Ba-006, which we saw on

11     the death certificate.  You had told us before that you -- that the

12     identities of the victims were established through DNA analysis.  So how

13     were you able to know which identity to indicate in the death certificate

14     for these remains?

15        A.   In order to minimise any influence by the examiners or the people

16     that were examining the remains, these people were provided only with the

17     codes.  I mean, they were provided with a bag for them to actually see

18     whatever was in the bag.  They may -- at some point they did have the

19     original autopsy report with them to try to contrast and to go faster.

20     But in some occasions autopsy reports were not even translated, and the

21     people we had did not necessarily read Serb, so they could not really

22     understand.

23             When this inspection was finished with that number the

24     identification unit were the ones elaborating or filling in the

25     information with the pathologist on the death certificate and then they

Page 2532

 1     put the name.  So we did not have names at the onset of the process.  So

 2     if somebody - I do not know - could have a special request, for example,

 3     by a family member saying, My father or mother or whoever is there, can

 4     you please tell me something?  They didn't know that.  They just had a

 5     number.  That's why the forensic inspection reports have only numbers,

 6     the case number.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honours, there are a series or sets of

 9     forensic inspection reports and death certificates which are referred to

10     in this witness statement.  I'm not going to go through the whole batch

11     because they are quite lengthy documents, but I would seek to tender them

12     into evidence at this stage.  The one that we were just looking at is

13     02394.  The other ones referred to in this statement are 02454, 00943,

14     00944, and 02799.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  They will be received.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Has P00456, Your Honours.

17             MS. KRAVETZ:  Could we now have Exhibit 00213 up on the screen,

18     and if we can display that for the witness both in the English and in the

19     original.

20        Q.   Do you recognise this document, sir?

21        A.   Yes, I do.

22        Q.   Can you explain what it is?

23        A.   The one on the left is the original death certificate that came

24     together with the autopsy report for each bag labelled with a code that

25     you can read on top, in this case PSII/18.  As you can see, it is an

Page 2533

 1     official Serb death certificate, as much as I am acquainted with from my

 2     work there, written in Cyrillic.  It has the name of the victim on the

 3     first -- on the first line, and then I presume is the date of death on

 4     the second line.  The second one on the right is the translation of the

 5     same document.

 6        Q.   What does the code PSII/18 stand for?

 7        A.   Petrovo Selo II, body 18.

 8        Q.   We see that this document is signed by a Professor V. Otasevic,

 9     do you know who this person is?

10        A.   Yes, it's Professor Vujadin Otasevic from the forensic institute

11     in Nis.

12        Q.   And while you were head of OMPF, did you have any dealings or

13     contacts with Professor Otasevic?

14        A.   Yes, as a matter of fact the first eight bodies that were

15     transferred were thanks to -- the -- I cannot find the right word to say,

16     but the dealings we had with Professor Otasevic were quite collaborative

17     I would say.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, I seek to tender this exhibit, this is

20     00213.  There are a set of other similar exhibits -- similar death

21     certificates and documents from this same institution which I'm not going

22     to go through unless it assists Your Honours with the witness in detail.

23     The exhibits are -- go from the range 002114 [sic] to 00226.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Are you suggesting this should be separate from

25     them or part of that batch?

Page 2534

 1             MS. KRAVETZ:  Each one of them has a separate exhibit number.  I

 2     can call each exhibit number separately.  They go from the range 00213 to

 3     00226.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  For our purposes I'm asking one exhibit or --

 5             MS. KRAVETZ:  Separate exhibit numbers.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Separate exhibits.

 7             They will be received then.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  The document currently on the screen,

 9     Your Honours, with 65 ter number 00213 would be P00457; 65 ter 00214

10     would be P00458; 65 ter number 00215 would be P00459; 65 ter number 00216

11     would be P00460; 65 ter number 00217 would be P00461; 65 ter number 00218

12     would be P00462; 65 ter number 00219 would be P00463; 65 ter number 00220

13     would be P00464; 65 ter number 00221 would be P00465; 65 ter number 00222

14     would be P00466; 65 ter number 00223 would be P00467; 65 ter number 00224

15     would be P00468; 65 ter number 00225 would be P00469; and 65 ter number

16     00226 would be P00470, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

18             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19        Q.   Witness, now turning to your report and to the conclusions that

20     you reach in your report, in your report you refer to identifying and

21     differentiating between different types of trauma in bone.  In very

22     simple terms can you explain, when you examine remains, bone -- skeletal

23     remains in this case, as you were explaining, how were you able to

24     distinguish between gun-shot trauma and other types of trauma?

25        A.   Right.  I will try to be as simple as possible, but please feel

Page 2535

 1     free to interrupt me if I use terms that may sound too complicated.

 2             Bones break because of different mechanisms, and different

 3     mechanisms are characterised primarily by the energy that is applied to

 4     bone.  For example, blunt-force trauma on bone is a load applied slowly

 5     over a large area.  For example, a rock thrown to somebody's head or

 6     somebody being beaten with a hammer or something of the kind.  Why it's a

 7     slow load?  Because the velocity involved in this is quite low.  If I

 8     have to calculate the velocity that my arm, holding a hammer, will get

 9     upon swinging my arm over the head of somebody will be a few metres per

10     second.

11             On the other hand, all the types of trauma such as, for example,

12     gun-shot trauma are considered high-velocity trauma, because unlike the

13     previous example, a bullet leaving the muzzle of a weapon would have, at

14     the very least -- I mean, the lowest possible calibre over a hundred

15     metres per second.  So it is exponentially much much higher than

16     blunt-force.  And also it acts upon a much smaller area of the body.  A

17     bullet may have, let's say, 9 millimetres in diameter while a hammer

18     would have a few centimetres in diameter.

19             Bones do react to external loads or forces in various ways.  For

20     example, all materials have what is called an elastic phase and a plastic

21     phase, and then they break.  I give you another example.  Let's say we

22     have a plastic pen.  If I bend this plastic pen with both of my hands, I

23     will deform it.  So it will go beyond its elasticity and will be

24     plastically deformed.  When I try to bend it over and to have it straight

25     again, I won't be able to; it will remain like that.  Bones are the same.

Page 2536

 1     Bones can go through elastic phase.  It will be an immature bone of a

 2     child.  Children are very elastic, so to speak.  Then it may go through

 3     the plastic deformation and then it will break.  Typically blunt-force

 4     trauma will cause plastic deformation on bone, meaning the bone may break

 5     and may yield and stay like that; while gun-shot wound trauma would

 6     definitely perforate and destroy bone, make it break automatically.  And

 7     all this is based on the amount of kinetic energy that is transferred

 8     from an object in movement to bone.

 9        Q.   And in very lay-man terms, is the fragmentation observed on the

10     bone different in the case of blunt-force trauma and gun-shot trauma?

11        A.   Both -- in general terms both characteristics are mutually

12     exclusive, so there is a number of details of stigmata of each of these

13     types of mechanisms that are totally different from one other.  In other

14     words, yes, it is possible to distinguish what is blunt force and what is

15     gun-shot.

16        Q.   And how are you able to distinguish between trauma that is

17     suffered by the bone before or at the time of death and that that is

18     suffered after the time of death?  For example, during the transport of

19     bones from Serbia to Kosovo.

20        A.   In general --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Could all unnecessary microphones please be

22     turned off.  Thank you.

23             MS. KRAVETZ:

24        Q.   Just go ahead.

25        A.   Right.  Sorry.  I don't know if it's for me or for somebody else.

Page 2537

 1             The trauma caused at the time of death or around the time of

 2     death that we shall call peri mortem - in latin peri, around; mortem,

 3     trauma - has some specific characteristics.  But before I go into that, I

 4     will try to link this with the rest of the answer.

 5             By definition, all these bodies that were transported from Serbia

 6     back to Kosovo, since we knew that these bodies have been buried and then

 7     dug up and then taken and then reburied and then exhumed again, we have

 8     to assume that all blunt-force trauma found in those remains could have

 9     been caused by post mortem phenomenon.  In other words, I could not have

10     said, unless some very specific characteristics were found, that somebody

11     was clubbed to death, for example, or that somebody -- or that that

12     damage was actually caused by an excavator ripping through bodies.

13             Now, regarding the last point that was actually in your question.

14     The patterns of bone damage caused by, for example, mechanical means of

15     excavation are very typical.  They cause, for example, major crushing

16     injuries over large parts of anatomical areas, like the chest, the head.

17     It causes transverse fractures of long bones with no radiating fractures

18     of any kind.  These are very typical post-mortem changes caused by

19     mechanical instruments, such as excavators and so on.

20             I may add that we, regrettably, had a very large experience with

21     this dealing primarily with the Srebrenica case in which these type of

22     practices were very common.  I do not know whether I answered your

23     question or I went off of it too much.

24        Q.   I'm sorry.  I think you have answered my question.

25             MS. KRAVETZ:  Could we have Exhibit 455 up on the screen -- this

Page 2538

 1     is 65 ter 02795, it's just been admitted as Exhibit 455.

 2        Q.   Do you have that page up on the screen before you?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Now, this is the corrigendum to your -- to page 11 of your

 5     findings that we spoke about earlier.

 6             MS. KRAVETZ:  And if we could zoom in on the graph, please.

 7        Q.   Looking at these exhibits, could you tell us how the findings of

 8     OMPF during these forensic inspections reports -- forensic inspections

 9     that we've been speaking about compare to the findings of Serbian

10     forensic teams for these three grave-sites?

11        A.   Certainly.  Differences starting in many respects.  In blue you

12     have -- starting from left to right, you have the first column in blue,

13     this is the number -- the total number of cases that were examined from

14     the Ba, or Batajnica, site, that's 744.  From those, when we received the

15     bodies a hundred per cent, mean 744 cases, did not have a cause of death

16     ascertained during the examination, the original examination, done by the

17     Serbian authorities.

18             Upon the inspection we were able to ascertain cause of death in

19     506 individuals, that is, more or less 61 per cent of the total.  And, of

20     course, we have 238 cases without cause of death ascertained.  And we

21     could continue from left to right on each of the other sites.  In blue

22     being the total, the second column being the cases in which we were able

23     to ascertain cause of death after the forensic inspection, and the third

24     column being the one where we could not ascertain cause of death.

25     Meaning that we were able to determine the most probable cause of death

Page 2539

 1     based on the remains we were examining.  That is what it means.

 2        Q.   And what does the D at the bottom, next to Ba stand for?

 3        A.   That is Perucac lake.

 4        Q.   And the PS?

 5        A.   Petrovo Selo.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MS. KRAVETZ:  If we could now look at page 11 of the report.  If

 8     it hasn't been split, if it's still 2794, and in e-court it would be

 9     page 34.  I don't know if we have it as a new exhibit.  Could we zoom to

10     the bottom of the page.  Thank you.

11        Q.   This is one of the examples contained in your report.  This is

12     case Ba-12, and we have the identity of the victim there.  Using this

13     example, could you explain how you were able to establish the cause of

14     death in this case?

15        A.   Certainly.  As a matter of fact, the next page would be the one

16     showing the -- the features where -- or based on which cause of death

17     were determined.  But maybe before we go to that I can explain you

18     briefly what we're seeing on the three photographs at the bottom of the

19     page.  This large opening on the top of the skull, a hole, if you wish,

20     that is seen from the back, from the left side, and from above is an

21     opening or a hole caused by fire damage.  You see a blackened area on the

22     first picture to the left on the back of the skull, and on the middle

23     photograph you can see some spongy bone of the skull that have been

24     exposed due to flaking of bone layers due to fire.  And then you have

25     that large opening.  There is likely what they call volcano fractures of

Page 2540

 1     the skull, meaning the brain will heated up and building a lot of gas,

 2     and this gas will pretty much cause like a small explosion for it to

 3     evaporate.

 4             If we go to the next picture I can discuss what you actually

 5     asked me.

 6             MS. KRAVETZ:  Could we please turn to the next page.

 7             THE WITNESS:  On the photograph of the left we're seeing an

 8     inferior or lower view of the head, obviously this is articulated from

 9     the neck.  And on the right one we see a detail of something that you can

10     actually see on the lower part of the photograph on the left, there is an

11     elongated defect, elongated hole, if we use lay terms that is better

12     known as a keyhole.  It means that a tangential shot, or rather, a shot

13     hit the skull tangentially and has or shares components of an entrance

14     wound and an exit wound.

15             I do not know whether I can point -- there was a way to point,

16     but I cannot remember how to do it.

17             MS. KRAVETZ:

18        Q.   There is a pen on the side of the screen.  The usher can assist

19     you.

20        A.   It actually happened last time in the same -- the same way.

21     Thank you.

22             This part here is the entrance component, and you can see a

23     slightly rounded or half-rounded part on the left side, while this part

24     here would be the exit component.  Primarily this arrow is pointing

25     at - and then I will do another arrow here - is pointing at some areas

Page 2541

 1     that are externally beveled that is a typical element of an exit wound.

 2     The trajectory or how the shot would have been inflicted would be this,

 3     on your photograph from the top to the bottom.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MS. KRAVETZ:  If this photograph could be assigned an exhibit

 6     number.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  I'm just concerned, it's part of the report.

 8     You're wanting it separately?

 9             MS. KRAVETZ:  Simply because it's been marked by the witness,

10     just that one page.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Of course.  I was not quick enough to see that.

12             It will be received.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00471, Your Honours.

14             MS. KRAVETZ:  Could we now turn to page 38 of this exhibit.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  It's probably convenient time, Ms. Kravetz.

16             MS. KRAVETZ:  Oh, I thought the break was at quarter to because

17     we began at 4.15, but maybe I'm mistaken.  We can break now.  That's no

18     problem.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  That will take us, you see, to five past 6.00,

20     finishing at 7.00.

21             MS. KRAVETZ:  Okay.  No problem.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  I'm afraid we have to have a break now, our tapes

23     have to be rewound, and that's a 30-minute task.  So we adjourn now and

24     resume at five past 6.00.

25                           --- Recess taken at 5.35 p.m.

Page 2542

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2                           --- On resuming at 6.07 p.m.

 3             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Ms. Kravetz.

 6             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, before the witness is brought in a

 7     matter was brought to my attention during the break.  I had tendered some

 8     batches of OMPF forensic inspection reports and death certificates --

 9     which are mentioned in this witness statement, and I am being told that

10     they haven't yet been assigned an exhibit number.

11                           [The witness takes the stand]

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  We will do that now and you tender

13     them, do you?

14             MS. KRAVETZ:  I'll go through the list again.  So it's 02454.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be, Your Honours, P00472.

16             MS. KRAVETZ:  00943.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00473.

18             MS. KRAVETZ:  00944.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00474.

20             MS. KRAVETZ:  And 02799 which has been provided on a CD ROM.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00475, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

23             Just doing some housework.

24             Yes, Ms. Kravetz.

25             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 2543

 1        Q.   Witness, earlier we were looking at a photograph on the screen,

 2     and you had indicated how you were able to establish the cause of death

 3     and you also referred to the fact of observing fire damage on this

 4     photograph.  Do you recall, whether there were other cases where you were

 5     able to observe fire damage or mortal remains that you examined?

 6        A.   Yes, as a matter of fact, I have some notes here that may help

 7     us.  For example, in the sites of Batajnica and Perucac combined, 531

 8     cases showed gun-shot wounds --

 9        Q.   Witness, if I may stop you there.  I'm only speaking about fire

10     damage.

11        A.   I'm sorry, the break did not really help me much.  I lost

12     concentration.  Yes, indeed, a number of cases did show fire damage.  I

13     cannot tell you at the moment a specific number, but it was a number of

14     instances where fire damage was found, yes.

15        Q.   And just going back to one of my earlier questions, I had asked

16     you about how you were able to establish the difference between

17     peri mortem and post mortem trauma on bone, and you had explained how you

18     were able to establish post mortem; and you said that peri mortem

19     fractures or trauma had some specific characteristics but you didn't

20     explain what those characteristics were.  Are you able to clarify that

21     now?

22        A.   Yes -- actually, it would be very helpful if we would go back to

23     page 12 with the original pictures we saw before.

24             MS. KRAVETZ:  That is page 34, I believe.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Could all unnecessary typing please stop.  The

Page 2544

 1     interpreters cannot hear very clearly.  Thank you.

 2             MS. KRAVETZ:  We're sorry about that.

 3        Q.   Are you talking about the graph we saw earlier?

 4        A.   No, it's page number 12 of my report where I circled some

 5     characteristics of a gun-shot wound to the head.

 6             MS. KRAVETZ:  This would be page 35 on -- in e-court, if the

 7     exhibit is still one single exhibit.

 8             THE WITNESS:  If I may use the -- this pen again.

 9             Peri mortem trauma, such as in this case, a gun-shot wound to the

10     head, is associated, depending on the mechanism that is causing it, to

11     the dissipation of energy.  This energy dissipates through fractures.  We

12     can see - and I'm going to try to do my best to point on this graph --

13     suddenly it went off focus.  I don't know if it was me or -- we got that

14     fracture there that is associated to this defect -- this elongated defect

15     we are seeing.

16             In other words, peri mortem trauma has a relationship between two

17     things:  Specific defects such as the one we observing there and

18     dissipation of energy through fractures.  These fractures run depending

19     on what bone they are located through the areas of least resistance of

20     bone.  And if they cross areas that are heavily reinforced or protected

21     or buttressed, as we say, it means that the energy that is being

22     dissipated is quite high, such as in this case, for example, this area

23     here is an area of a buttress, as an occipital buttress, and you can see

24     that the fracture is running around it, not crossing it.  Having said

25     that, this area of the bone, the occipital bone, is very thick.  In other

Page 2545

 1     words, this type of fracture is a peri mortem fracture because it is

 2     associated to a specific defect that can be identified or traced to a

 3     gun-shot wound.

 4        Q.   Thank you for that answer.  Just so we can understand the

 5     transcript, I believe -- I think it's better to have this page be

 6     assigned an exhibit number again, since it's been marked by the witness.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00476, Your Honours.

 9             MS. KRAVETZ:  If we could now have page 38 in e-court back up on

10     the screen, it's the page we had up earlier.  This is page 15 of the

11     report.  If we could please only display the English for the witness and

12     zoom in.

13        Q.   So, Witness, here we have a graph that is included in your report

14     which refers to the distribution of probable gun-shot injuries per

15     anatomical area.  Which conclusions, if any, can be drawn from this graph

16     that you have included in your report?

17        A.   Yes.  Again, I'll try to be as succinct as I can.  It is -- it

18     has been learned now, over the last few years, looking at the

19     distribution of injuries or death in war conditions - it could be Iraq or

20     Afghanistan or the Balkans for that matter after the disintegration of

21     Yugoslavia - that the first cause of mortality or morbidity, meaning

22     people dying or being injured in a traditional conflict, armed

23     conflict - by "tradition" I mean where two armed groups are fighting one

24     another, it doesn't really matter whether they are regular or

25     irregular - is shrapnel, meaning the leading cause of mortality and

Page 2546

 1     morbidity is shrapnel.  The second cause is gun-shot, and there is a very

 2     important difference between these two because gun-fires are also known

 3     as weapons of volition.  In other words, if I want to kill one person in

 4     a crowd, I would not throw a grenade that would certainly kill everybody

 5     including the person I'm trying to kill, while shrapnel primarily comes

 6     from sectorial weapons, I mean, a bomb that goes off, a mortar, a

 7     grenade, or something of the kind.

 8             When we look at the distribution of injuries of people injured by

 9     gun-fire, a pattern emerges.  In traditional conflicts, as per the

10     definition I gave, the distribution of gun-shot injuries should be, that

11     is based on some 25 traditional conflicts that were examined as a matter

12     of fact when I wrote this report and has been expanded further in some

13     other publications:  First the limbs, meaning legs and arms; second, the

14     trunk; and third, the head.  Whenever we're dealing with the opposite

15     scenario, meaning when there is an armed group and another group that is

16     not necessarily armed, meaning a non-confrontational or armed

17     confrontational context, we tend to find the reverse, meaning the head

18     first, the distribute of gun-shot injuries in this case, the head first;

19     the trunk; and then the extremities.

20             What we're looking at in this graph is that we have the head with

21     300 individuals; the trunk with 323, so they are very close; followed by

22     the limbs.  So this pattern is an anomalous pattern of what you expect to

23     find in a traditional armed confrontation.

24        Q.   Now, you referred to shrapnel injury, and in your report you said

25     that from the cases that you were able to examine you were only able to

Page 2547

 1     find three cases of individuals that had sustained shrapnel injury and

 2     one that had sustained both shrapnel and gun-shot wounds for the sites of

 3     Batajnica and Lake Perucac, and for Petrovo Selo you say that all

 4     individuals had ascertained gun-shot wounds.  Which conclusions, if any,

 5     can be drawn from this fact that you state in your report?

 6        A.   That it is highly likely that the pattern being observed

 7     corresponds to a non-confrontational pattern of armed conflict.  If I

 8     have this evidence to elaborate, I would say that it is highly unlikely,

 9     improbable in this case, that this distribution of injuries is consistent

10     with the confrontation of two armed groups.  As an example I would tell

11     you that 0.5 per cent, meaning three individuals, in all sites combined,

12     have shrapnel injuries and 0.1 per cent has shrapnel and bullet wounds.

13     So it is a totally insignificant number compared to the proportions of

14     people that sustained gun-shot wounds.

15        Q.   And can any conclusions be drawn based on this pattern that you

16     were able to observe as to the circumstances of how these individuals met

17     their death?

18        A.   Well, if we look at yet again the distribution of injuries, it

19     would be quite interesting to see that we got 300 people that sustained

20     gun-shot wounds to the head, the head being a very restricted area or

21     very discrete area of the body, certainly is not the area where you

22     expect to have such a high number of injuries unless they were purposely

23     inflicted in that area.  What I'm saying is, if you're shooting, you're

24     going to go for the bulk of the body for the largest area not for the

25     smallest area, that in this case would be the head or a hand or a foot or

Page 2548

 1     something of the kind.

 2             The other important issue to be drawn from this is that the

 3     number of cases in which cause of death was not ascertained was primarily

 4     because of the destruction of these remains, meaning they were very

 5     fragmented or they were burned or they were incomplete.  So this means

 6     that such a large number of cases with gun-shot wounds is defining as a

 7     context that the real number of people injured by a gun-shot is much

 8     higher than we're observing here.  It has been proven, and there is a

 9     study of a Frenchman, another associate that is listed in my report, that

10     the number of people that show skeletal injuries, bone injuries, in a

11     fire-fight context is only a fraction of the people that actually were

12     injured or died of gun-shot.  For example, if you are shot through soft

13     tissues of the abdomen, you will not find -- have a broken bone; if you

14     are shot through the spine or the head, you will have a broken bone.  But

15     if -- let's say we have ten people that have been in a fire-fight of some

16     kind, maybe three or four will show skeletal injuries, while the rest

17     will not; but the rest also sustained gun-shot injuries although they

18     have no broken bones.

19        Q.   Now, you have referred several times to the fact that you

20     examined mostly skeletal remains because there was very little soft

21     tissue in the remains you examined.  Was this is case for all three mass

22     grave sites or was there a different for one or two of the sites?

23        A.   As a matter of fact, the site of Petrovo Selo, the PS, site

24     consisted of primarily saponified or in some cases what we call wet,

25     mummified tissues, meaning body fat was saturated in some cases giving

Page 2549

 1     the appearance to some waxy material, or bodies were slightly desecrated

 2     keeping some humidity as well in some areas and having recognisable

 3     muscle in pink colour.  This actually means the examination of these

 4     remains was much easier, "easier," in as much we were dealing with

 5     cadavers.  It was almost a proper corpse, so to speak, while the remains

 6     in Ba and D sites were primarily disarticulated bones.

 7        Q.   And I understand from your report that that was one of the sites

 8     where you found no cases of shrapnel injury; is that correct?

 9        A.   That is correct.

10        Q.   What conclusion if any can be drawn from that?

11        A.   That the under representation of shrapnel injuries is actually

12     real.  It is not, to say, an artefact of the examination.  In other

13     words, in the Petrovo Selo cases that I think were 60 -- 61 cases, yes,

14     61 cases, 53 of them showed gun-shot wounds and none showed shrapnel.  We

15     cannot say that we have missed shrapnel injuries in these remains because

16     they were complete; and on top of it as any other remain all of them were

17     gone through X-ray examination to look for any metal particles that can

18     be lodged or found anywhere in the body.  And since the soft tissues were

19     there -- since they were there, you could see them.  So what I'm trying

20     to say is a low representation of shrapnel injuries in all the samples

21     likely probably reflects what actually happened, meaning that very few

22     people were injured by shrapnel; i.e., shrapnel was not the first means

23     of injury or mechanism of injury that operated in these sites.

24        Q.   And with regard to the distribution of injuries per anatomical

25     area, was the site of Petrovo Selo similar to that which we just saw for

Page 2550

 1     Lake Perucac and Batajnica?

 2        A.   As a matter of fact, in Petrovo Selo we have 20 individuals with

 3     injuries on the head and 21 on the chest, so it's almost the same with a

 4     difference of one.  Upper limbs, there are five; and 13 on the lower

 5     limbs.  So it would be in order:  Chest, head, and limbs, but obviously

 6     head and chest are almost identical.

 7        Q.   And going back to what we were talking about about the

 8     circumstances in which these individuals had met their death, can you

 9     make any specific or draw any specific conclusions with regard to this

10     site of Petrovo Selo based on what you were able to observe?

11        A.   Well, the conclusions regarding Petrovo Selo would not be

12     different to the ones drawn for the other two sites with the exception

13     that no shrapnel injuries were detected, meaning that the only type of

14     weapons that were likely used were, I mean, guns of some -- fire-arms of

15     some denomination.  In this case, if I recall well, all injuries were

16     caused by high-velocity rounds, meaning rounds fired likely by rifle of

17     some kind.

18        Q.   Thank you.  I want to turn away from your report now, and I just

19     have very few questions left with regard to the consolidated list of

20     missing persons that is referred to in your statement at paragraph 31.

21     You refer to this list and you indicate in your statement how it is

22     compiled and you say it is updated at regular intervals.  Do you know how

23     regularly this list is updated since it was first created?

24        A.   Well, obviously from my recollection I no longer work for MPF,

25     the list was updated almost on a monthly basis.  Primarily the issue with

Page 2551

 1     this list is that we wanted to have a list that could be accepted by all

 2     parties or former parties to the conflict.  So this list was compared

 3     constantly with the International Committee of the Red Cross list, since

 4     obviously they are the neutral body by excellence, that have a similar

 5     list to ours; and the idea was to try to get to agreement to the two

 6     lists to see why cases that were in their list were not in ours and so

 7     forth.  But certainly the list was constantly updated.

 8        Q.   In your statement you refer -- you indicated that you had

 9     provided to the ICTY two versions of this list, one from December of 2004

10     and one from October 2006.  Have you recently had the chance to review a

11     more updated list from April 2008?

12        A.   Yes, I have.

13        Q.   And can you just very generally tell us what differences you were

14     able to observe when you reviewed that list from the most recent one you

15     had seen at the time of your statement, which is October 2006?

16        A.   The difference between the two lists is the last one from

17     April 2008, the total number of cases is higher.  So if in October 2006

18     we had a total universe of 5.298 cases, in April 2008 there were 5.367

19     cases.  Equally, the number of cases closed and the number of cases

20     active in both lists are obviously different.  Why do we close cases?

21     Primarily through a number of mechanisms.  One of them could be that the

22     person turns out to be alive; therefore, the name of this person has to

23     be eliminated from the list.  Actually what we do is we simply close the

24     case, the name remains there as a record.  Or we have to close a case and

25     there is no information whatsoever regarding whether this person actually

Page 2552

 1     existed or the conditions in which this person went missing.  Another

 2     reason for closing a case would be to identify the remains, what is what

 3     mostly happened, identifying the remains and returning them to the

 4     families.  Or maybe identifying the remains and we have not yet broken

 5     the news to the families but the remains have been identified.  So we

 6     know that Mr. John Doe has been identified, now has a name, and pending

 7     explaining to the family that we have identified their loved one, the

 8     remains in the list changed status to a closed case.  And that is why, as

 9     of April 2008, there were 3.241 cases closed, all reasons combined; and

10     there were 2.126 cases active, meaning whereabouts of missing persons

11     still unknown.

12        Q.   And would it be fair to say that this April 2008 list now

13     represents the most updated and exhaustive record of the missing persons

14     reported missing during the Kosovo conflict?

15        A.   I would say so, but I would also suspect, I do not know that

16     because I have not been in contact with my former office, that there are

17     other versions of that list as of January or February 2009, I do not

18     know.  But obviously April 2008 would be as exhaustive record as there

19     was until April 2008, yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honours, I don't intend to show the list to

22     the witness, but I do seek to tender it into evidence at this stage.

23     This is 05232.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  This is the April 2008?

25             MS. KRAVETZ:  Yes.

Page 2553

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.  It will be received.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00477, Your Honours.

 3             MS. KRAVETZ:  And I have no further questions at this stage for

 4     this witness, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.

 6             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, while my learned colleague is

 7     preparing himself on the other side, I just wanted to bring one matter to

 8     your attention.  We have tendered today an extensive amount of forensic

 9     documentation.  I just wanted to let you know that later on during the

10     Prosecution case we intend to submit to the Chamber proof of death chart

11     where we link all the different death certificates and forensic reports

12     to the individual victims that are listed in the schedules to our

13     indictment, and this is just in order to facilitate Your Honours' work

14     with these exhibits because we are aware they are quite lengthy and they

15     are a bit difficult to navigate otherwise.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.  I'm sure that will help.

17             Mr. Djordjevic.

18             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  Good evening, Your Honours.

19                           Cross-examination by Mr. Djordjevic:

20        Q.   Good evening, Mr. Baraybar.  Now I will switch on B/C/S.

21             [Interpretation] I was wondering if perhaps it would be better to

22     start tomorrow so that I could do my cross-examination in one piece, but

23     I think that we can take the 20 minutes that we have, and I can start

24     with my cross-examination.

25        Q.   Mr. Baraybar, we've just heard the Prosecutor ask you questions

Page 2554

 1     about your education.  My first question to you is:  Am I right if I say

 2     that the faculty that you graduated from, Univesitat Nationale Mayor de

 3     San Marcos in Peru is the one where you took a course in humanities, that

 4     is archaeology?

 5        A.   That is correct.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the counsel's

 8     microphone be put closer to him.

 9             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  [Interpretation]

10        Q.   And then you say that you went on to do your master's degree in

11     London?

12        A.   That is correct.

13        Q.   However, what I want to know is the exact name of the university

14     where you pursued this course of studies, I believe that this was in

15     1994?

16        A.   That was in 1991, University College London, part of

17     University of London.

18        Q.   Can you tell me your master's thesis.  Did you have to write it?

19     What was your topic, and who was your supervisor, if you did have to

20     produce a thesis?

21        A.   Yes, I did.  I could not tell you the title of it because it

22     escapes me, but I can tell you a subject and tell you also whom my

23     supervisor was.  Starting with my supervisor, it was

24     Professor Don Brothwell.  I believe he is a professor of merit in the

25     southern university of York these days, and I worked with an

Page 2555

 1     archaeological collection from the central coast of Peru dealing with

 2     trace element analysis for the reconstruction of diet.

 3        Q.   Is that all?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   My next question is this:  Before you went to Great Britain, did

 6     you have any medical training?

 7        A.   No, I did not.

 8        Q.   As you did your master's thesis, did you take any courses in

 9     medicine; and if yes, could you please elaborate?

10        A.   No, I did not.

11        Q.   You note in your CV that for all intents and purposes you also

12     did some work in heart science, such as, for instance, archaeology - just

13     a moment, I do apologise -- that you actually combined archaeology,

14     physical anthropology, and forensic medicine.  And now you tell us that

15     you didn't do any medical studies; however, this is what I read in your

16     CV.  And that's why I'm asking you:  Why do you now tell us that you

17     didn't do any forensic medicine studies, whereas in your CV this is what

18     it says?  Is that an error?  Can I consider it to be an error?

19        A.   Should be because I have mentioned as a matter of fact during the

20     examination-in-chief that it was a combination between physical

21     anthropology, bio-archaeology, and forensics.  I never used the word

22     "medicine."

23        Q.   You mentioned forensic medicine.  What do you mean when you say

24     "forensics"?  What is it?

25        A.    "Forensics" is an ever-evolving field that contains a number of

Page 2556

 1     sub-disciplines of forensic medicine itself.  It could be criminalistics,

 2     could be trace analysis, could be elements of forensic pathology, could

 3     be scene of crime reconstruction, could be, frankly, a number of things.

 4     And I reiterate the fact that I have mention the word "forensics" in that

 5     open and wide spectrum of disciplines.

 6        Q.   This is why I asked you this, and this is why I want you to tell

 7     us whether you meant forensics in the broadest sense or whether you meant

 8     only one segment of this science that you studied in London?

 9        A.   Well, I tell you again that I dealt with forensics, meaning all

10     the aspects of forensic sciences as applied to the examination of

11     skeletal remains, be they found in an archaeological context or in a

12     medical or legal context.

13        Q.   Could you please tell me now whether you ever studied human

14     anatomy - and here I mean the overall anatomy - or did you just study

15     human skeletons?

16        A.   I have not had any formal education on human anatomy in the way

17     you describe it to me.

18        Q.   Did you focus in particular on human skeleton?

19        A.   During my education, yes.

20        Q.   When and where?  You said that you did it in the course of your

21     studies, and I want to ask you:  When and where?  In what segment of your

22     education?

23        A.   During the time I studied my B.A. in archaeology, there were two

24     compulsory courses taught by the Faculty of Biology that were called

25     physical anthropology, where you have to actually study skeletal anatomy

Page 2557

 1     as part of the courses.  During my master's, I did a refreshment course

 2     on skeletal anatomy as part of my education, obviously, yes.

 3        Q.   Could you please tell me, are you familiar with the basic tenets

 4     of pathophysiology and pathology?

 5        A.   Yes, the basic tenets, yes.

 6        Q.   Do you have any formal education or is this something that you

 7     did in the course of your general education?  So when you say that you

 8     have some knowledge of pathophysiology and pathology, did you take some

 9     exams, do you have some proof of that, or is this some knowledge that you

10     gained as you went along in the course of your education?

11        A.   It is rather knowledge I gained during the course of my work, not

12     during my education.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Before you came to Kosovo and Metohija as the head of

14     the service where you remained until May 2007, did you take part in any

15     forensic medical expert analyses of cases involving violent deaths before

16     courts in your country or before any other courts before your arrival in

17     Kosovo?

18        A.   Yes, I did, both in my countries, in this Tribunal, and as a

19     member - and even in some cases - directing commissions of inquiry, could

20     be for the UN or for any other body.

21        Q.   While you worked here at the Tribunal, would you please tell me

22     what jobs did you have, what posts, and what was it that you actually

23     did?

24        A.   Certainly.  My first employment with the Tribunal was with the

25     Rwanda Tribunal back in 1996, if I'm not mistaken it would be

Page 2558

 1     February 1996.  My function or title then was forensic investigator.  My

 2     work was as a forensic anthropologist for the Office of the Prosecutor,

 3     exhuming, analysing the remains found in mass graves following the

 4     genocide in Rwanda.  I then was transferred on loan together with my unit

 5     to ICTY about June - if I'm not mistaken - June 1996, where I

 6     participated both in the exhumations of mass graves related to Srebrenica

 7     massacre as well as to the killings at the Ovcara farm in Croatia.

 8             In 1997 I was officially employed by ICTY, since at that time I

 9     was still technically employed by ICTR, as a forensic anthropologist;

10     that was my functional title.  Since then on I became the person

11     responsible for setting up the teams that worked in the field and/or in

12     the mortuary for the Tribunal and I -- my position was quite

13     exchangeable.  I could be an archaeologist dealing with exhumations of

14     mass grave sites or chief anthropologist at the mortuary, until the year

15     2001, if I'm not mistaken, that is the last major operation of this

16     Tribunal in the field.

17        Q.   Thank you.  My next question:  When you say that you worked as a

18     forensic investigator for the ICTR, and later on for the ICTY too, do you

19     mean that you actually worked as an OTP investigator?

20        A.   As a matter of fact, my functional title of forensic investigator

21     was with ICTR, and I was appointed to the Office of the Prosecutor as a

22     forensic person.  I was not carrying out investigations -- criminal

23     investigations, if you wish.  But yes, I was appointed to the

24     Office of the Prosecution.

25        Q.   Thank you.  My next question:  Most of the abduction reports of

Page 2559

 1     the team that you headed are signed by forensic medicine specialist

 2     doctor -- doctors, Dr. Marek Gasior --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note, we could not get the names

 4     of the three doctors.

 5             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  [Interpretation] I will have to repeat the names

 6     because I can see that they're not in the transcript -- [In English] Some

 7     problem with the microphone definitely.

 8             [Interpretation] Let me repeat the names, Marek Gasior,

 9     Asoka Senevirante [phoen], Ananda Samarasekera [phoen].

10             Am I right when I say that?

11        A.   Yes, there's a minor pronunciation or spelling issue, but yes,

12     it's true.

13        Q.   Well, you will not take it amiss because I'm not really familiar

14     with those names, but we understand each other and that's the point.  So

15     I go on to my next question.

16             In various documents that follow, documents that have been

17     admitted into evidence by the Trial Chamber, they were tendered by the

18     Prosecution.  They contain names of your colleagues, forensic

19     anthropologists.  And I would like to know whether there are CVs for all

20     those people; in other words, their expertise, something that should be

21     there before you even take them on to be on your team?

22        A.   Certainly all the people which names appear in those documents

23     would have a CV on file in my former office.  I mean, obviously as a UN

24     procedure, people were not employed without knowing who they were or what

25     they have done.  So I would definitely invite you to request those CVs if

Page 2560

 1     this is the case.  I presume the CVs exist still.  They were when I was

 2     head of the office, so I guess they would still exist now.

 3        Q.   Of course.  I assumed that this was the case, but I have to ask

 4     you this because of my follow-up question.  You, as the head of this

 5     section and the head of the whole team, were you the person who actually

 6     decided who you would work with?  Did you decide whom to employ on the

 7     basis of their qualifications that were made known in accordance with the

 8     Rules of the United Nations or was it somebody else's decision?

 9        A.   No, I -- as a head, I had prerogatives certainly to employ

10     certain people depending on what -- on how these people were employed.

11     So let me clarify:  If people were employed or as part of the UN on a UN

12     contract, certainly, as you may know, the UN has very specific rules

13     regarding hiring people.  You have to short-list from an open-application

14     process.  There may be two people from your office and a third person

15     from another office that is not yours and things of the kind, a number of

16     interviews and so on.  If people are employed, for example, on a

17     short-term contract on another fund be, for example, on a donor fund, we

18     had a number of donor funds, the process of recruiting is slightly more

19     flexible.  People maybe come for a month or even two weeks.  In the case

20     of pathologists, they came for a short time.  In that case, yes, I had

21     extensive leverage as to who I would hire.  But certainly it was not me

22     myself who was hand-picking every single expert.  Certainly I gave an

23     approving look or non-approving look at the CVs I received in order not

24     to have people that were literally unqualified, certainly.

25        Q.   My question is:  How great was your role in the selection of

Page 2561

 1     personnel, either full-time personnel or those who only worked on

 2     short-term contracts?

 3        A.   Well, it was the -- I mean, it was a rule that the head of an

 4     office dealing with what we deal has.  I mean -- I mean, I -- it's a bit

 5     difficult for me to specify or quantify my role.  I was a head of an

 6     office with a very important mandate in hand; therefore, I would

 7     definitely oversee things as much as I could, certainly.  I mean,

 8     obviously delegating authority and all the rest of it, but obviously the

 9     issue was not that people would be employed, so to speak, without me

10     knowing who they were primarily to deal with such a sensitive issue.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Were there any cases where you decided that some

12     people could no longer be on your team to do some jobs that they had done

13     previously on the team?

14        A.   Could you elaborate on that because I do not understand very much

15     your question.

16        Q.   Did you fire anyone from your team, either somebody who was there

17     like a full-time employee, a staff member, or on a short-term contract?

18        A.   Instances of firing people primarily if they were on posts of any

19     kind had to be decided by a committee, of which, as a matter of fact, I

20     was not part of, in order to guarantee the rights of the person and

21     investigation or whatever it may be.  In cases of people working in short

22     contracts, people in theory could be, yes, I mean fired upon finding some

23     major breaches in their behaviour or work; and this could be a

24     prerogative of mine as head of the office, yes, that is correct.

25     However, I do not recall "firing" any person on this last category,

Page 2562

 1     meaning these short-term employees.  However, I do recall an instance in

 2     which some of the staff members were "fired" through a very lengthy

 3     process with the Department of Justice.

 4        Q.   My next question:  I understand what you say about short-term

 5     contracts.  You mentioned people who were on posts.  You also mentioned

 6     the committee that was set up to protect all the rights of the employees,

 7     people who work there.  And my question is:  Could you recommend to such

 8     a committee that a person be -- that a person's employment be terminated

 9     for a serious breach of duty or any kind of criminal behaviour?  Did you

10     have this opportunity -- did you have this prerogative?

11        A.   Yes, I did.  As head of the office, yes.

12        Q.   My last question in this line of questioning is:  In percentages,

13     how many people were on short-term contracts and how many people were

14     staff members?  Could you please answer and then I have a follow-up

15     question.

16        A.   That is a very difficult question to answer based on

17     recollections -- but again, based on recollections and stating really

18     that it is only a recollection, the number of people -- of experts on

19     short-term contracts depended on the workload we had.  In other words, I

20     give you an example.  Imagine that we had a transfer of remains from

21     Serbia proper into Kosovo of a hundred bodies.  Obviously as soon as

22     these bodies or body-bags crossed the Inter-Entity Boundary Line, the

23     families were pressing us to return these bodies to them, so we needed to

24     work fast.  So in that case we would hire a number of people to work, for

25     example, for two weeks in the mortuary and to finish with that back-load

Page 2563

 1     of cases.  But then maybe there would be no transfer until, who knows

 2     when, a few months ahead, and the exhumations being conducted in Kosovo

 3     would yield a few bodies that could be actually dealt with by the

 4     permanent staff we had in the office.  So the extra personnel, meaning

 5     these short-term personnel, will go home and we will remain with the

 6     people we had.

 7             If I had to give you a precise number of permanent posts, I mean

 8     from my recollection maybe we were -- on UN posts maybe there were 15 and

 9     there were a number of other people on KCB, Kosovo Consolidated Budget

10     posts, at the time -- or there was a time in which the office they were

11     primarily staffed by KCB staff.  We were, like, 79 or 80-something

12     people.  If we add to this the short-termers, the short-termers could be

13     up to 10 people or 12 people, so you can have an idea of how many people

14     were working at the same time in Kosovo.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  I'm afraid, Mr. Djordjevic, I've got to interrupt

16     with time.

17             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I wanted to take this

18     opportunity after the witness responded to tell you that my next question

19     would require a five-minute answer, so I wanted to concur with you this

20     is the right time to make a break.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  We must adjourn for the evening now, to resume

22     tomorrow in the morning, and the court officer will show you out and give

23     you instructions, and we look forward to continuing with your evidence

24     tomorrow.

25             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 2564

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  While the witness is leaving, Ms. Kravetz, I

 2     understand there is a matter you wish to raise.

 3             MS. KRAVETZ:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.  It's a matter that

 4     concerns scheduling.  The witness who's scheduled to testify right after

 5     we conclude with this witness is Mr. Jan Kickert.  The witness is already

 6     here, he has arrived to The Hague, and he has informed us today that he

 7     needs to return home tomorrow at the end of the day to attend some

 8     personal matters.  We would like to request to start tomorrow first thing

 9     with Mr. Kickert's testimony and complete his evidence and later continue

10     with Mr. Baraybar's testimony.  That is, to interrupt Mr. Baraybar's

11     testimony right now.  I should point out that I had informed my learned

12     colleagues from the Defence about the fact that Mr. Kickert had to

13     complete his evidence tomorrow at the start of the session.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Have you consulted with the present witness?

15             MS. KRAVETZ:  He has no problem staying if his testimony goes

16     over the weekend and needs to continue --

17             JUDGE PARKER:  How long do you expect Mr. Kickert will take in

18     total tomorrow?

19             MS. KRAVETZ:  Well, in direct he will take approximately one

20     hour.  I don't know how much time the Defence anticipates to take in

21     cross-examination.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic, do you anticipate difficulty in

23     finishing the evidence of Mr. Kickert tomorrow?

24             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] If we proceed as my colleague,

25     Ms. Kravetz, suggested, I don't see any problems; but life has taught us

Page 2565

 1     that there may be all kinds of problems.  So with this caveat, I agree.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Life has taught this Chamber that whatever time in

 3     estimates is bound to be inadequate, a matter about which we are

 4     gradually effecting change in the approach of counsel on both sides.

 5     Thank you for that.  We look forward to the evidence of Mr. Kickert first

 6     up tomorrow and we will then progress later in the morning to the

 7     evidence of the present witness.

 8             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  We adjourn now to resume tomorrow.

10                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.,

11                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 20th day of

12                           March, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.