Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3171

 1                           Friday, 3 April 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning.  We are noticing that we're slipping

 6     further behind schedule.  I think that it is important that we become

 7     aware of that.  There are a large number of witnesses in this trial.  The

 8     evidence of many of them is really of relevance only to one or two

 9     issues, and there needs to be a sharper focus by counsel on the relevance

10     of the witness and less attention to minor detail in examination and

11     cross-examination if we are to complete the hearing of this case in a

12     reasonable time.  For instance, this week a witness we might have reached

13     today will clearly not be reached until Monday, and there are two earlier

14     witnesses yet to be heard.  I would encourage counsel, both for the

15     Prosecution and the Defence, to be extremely mindful of time as we go

16     through the two witnesses for today.

17                           [The witness entered court]

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Would you please read aloud the affirmation that's

21     shown to you now on the card.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

23     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24                           WITNESS:  SABIT KADRIU

25                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 3172

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down.

 2             Ms. Kravetz has some questions for you.

 3             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4                           Examination by Ms. Kravetz:

 5        Q.   Good morning, Witness.  Could you please state your full name for

 6     the record.

 7        A.   My name is Sabit Kadriu.

 8        Q.   Mr. Kadriu, did you provide a statement to the

 9     Office of the Prosecution in 2000?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Did you have a chance to read your statement before coming to

12     court today?

13        A.   Yes, I have.

14        Q.   In proofing you made two corrections to your statement.  I am

15     going to read out each of those corrections and ask you to confirm if the

16     correction has been clearly stated.  In page 6, paragraph 4, third

17     sentence, currently reads:

18             "I must mention here that after the war I cooperated with the

19     LDK, but as a result developed some differences with the council ..."

20             Did you correct this sentence to simply read:

21             "I must mention here that after the war I cooperated with the

22     LDK ..."  and indicated that the rest of this sentence should be deleted

23     as that information is incorrect?

24        A.   Yes, it's correct now.

25        Q.   Page 9 contains a list of the victims of the massacre of the

Page 3173

 1     village in Galice at the top of the page.  Did you indicate that two

 2     names had been omitted from this list and should have been included in

 3     your statements.  And these are the names of Sejdi Kabashi, 24 years old

 4     of the village of Polac; and Enver Kabashi, 36 years old of the village

 5     of Poluza?

 6        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 7        Q.   Other than for those two corrections, are you satisfied that the

 8     information contained in your statement is true and accurate to the best

 9     of your knowledge and belief?

10        A.   Yes, I am.

11             MS. KRAVETZ:  I seek to tender this statement into evidence,

12     Your Honour, this is 65 ter 02377.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00515, Your Honours.

15             MS. KRAVETZ:

16        Q.   Mr. Kadriu, did you also testify previously before this Tribunal

17     in the case of Milutinovic et al.?

18        A.   Yes, I did.

19        Q.   Before coming to court today, did you have the opportunity to go

20     over the transcript of your previous testimony with the assistance of a

21     language assistant?

22        A.   Yes, yes I saw it.

23        Q.   In proofing you indicated that you wanted to clarify one -- one

24     information that's contained in paragraph -- in transcript page 5.073,

25     line 16, of the Milutinovic transcript and this is page 18 in e-court.

Page 3174

 1     This line currently reads:

 2             "Simic was deputy police commander, Dusko Janjic --"

 3             You indicated that this should actually state:

 4             "Simic was deputy police commander of Vucina Janivecic?"

 5             Is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes, that's correct.  Simic was deputy commander.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Other than for that clarification, if you were asked

 8     the same questions that you were asked in your previous testimony, would

 9     you provide the same answers today?

10        A.   Yes, certainly.

11             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honours, I seek to tender this transcript.

12     This is 65 ter 05093.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00516, Your Honours.

15             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honours, in order to proceed efficiently with

16     the exhibits associated to this transcript, I would propose to read each

17     one of the 65 ter numbers out so the Registrar can assign an exhibit

18     number if that pleases Your Honours.  I will proceed in that way.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  [Microphone not activated]

20             MS. KRAVETZ:  These are the exhibits are listed in the annex B to

21     our 92 bis motion.  First Exhibit is 65 ter 00008, and I seek to tender

22     that exhibit.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00517, Your Honours.

25             MS. KRAVETZ:  Second exhibit is 00046, and I ask that that be

Page 3175

 1     received.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00518, Your Honours.

 4             MS. KRAVETZ:  Next one is 00053, and I ask that that exhibit be

 5     received.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00519, Your Honours.

 8             MS. KRAVETZ:  Next exhibit is 02386, and I ask that that be

 9     received.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00520, Your Honours.

12             MS. KRAVETZ:  Next exhibit is 01335, and I ask that that be

13     received.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00521, Your Honours.

16             MS. KRAVETZ:  The next one is 00477, and I seek to tender that

17     exhibit as well.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00522, Your Honours.

20             MS. KRAVETZ:  Next exhibit 01334, and I ask that that be

21     received.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00523, Your Honours.

24             MS. KRAVETZ:  Next exhibit 00487, and I ask that that be

25     received.

Page 3176

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00524, Your Honours.

 3             MS. KRAVETZ:  And the last exhibit is 02393, and I ask that that

 4     be received.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00525, Your Honours.

 7             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you.

 8        Q.   Witness, the Chamber has your previous testimony and your

 9     statement -- written statement already before them.  I have very few

10     questions for you, and I'm going to direct your attention to page 21 of

11     your statement.

12             MS. KRAVETZ:  For this purpose I ask that the witness be provided

13     a hard copy just for ease of reference.  It's page 20 in the Albanian

14     version.

15        Q.   Now, in your statement you described events that took place in

16     the municipality of Vucitrn on 2nd May, specifically on that page you

17     have listed over 100 victims that died in a convoy massacre that took

18     place on 2nd of May.  I would like you to explain for Your Honours how

19     you collected the names which are listed in your statement starting on

20     page 21 up to page 24 of your statement.

21        A.   It was not a problem for me to collect the names because I too

22     was a member in that convoy on the 2nd of May, but the fact is that on

23     the night that the monstrous crime was committed when about 100 persons

24     were killed, I didn't know the exact number of the dead.  But after I was

25     released from prison and with the entry of the NATO forces in Kosova, the

Page 3177

 1     conditions were created for us to conduct an investigation into the event

 2     because that night I could not be in a position to know that such number

 3     was the case.  I heard only that 60 persons were killed from a

 4     conversation among the policemen, but after the war we realised that over

 5     100 persons were executed in a very short time.  That's why I worked on

 6     the case.

 7             I started investigating family by family together with the

 8     members of the commission where I was a member of.  It was a commission

 9     on the investigation of the Serb crimes, after the war, that I chaired.

10     Being a member of that convoy, I felt it my obligation to go through to

11     the end of this case.  And in this place there is a monument erected now

12     and there are all the graves of the persons executed in the night of the

13     2nd of May.  They are well taken care of graves.  There is a monument at

14     the entrance to the cemetery in memory of the dead killed on the

15     2nd of May.

16        Q.   Mr. Kadriu, you referred to conducting an investigation into this

17     event.  When you were conducting this investigation, did you interview

18     witnesses of the convoy, persons who had been present when these killings

19     occurred?

20        A.   Yes, yes.  We organised ourselves as a group of this commission,

21     and we went to take evidence for every single case from the family

22     members of the persons killed that night, those family members that

23     managed to return after the war from Albania and Montenegro to Kosova.

24             We created a special file, drawing up a sketch of the route

25     followed by the convoy from Sllakovc, Studime e Eperme, until

Page 3178

 1     Studime e Poshteme, and up to Vushtrri, which was the final destination.

 2     We handed over this evidence which shows in details the movement of the

 3     convoy on the 2nd of May.

 4        Q.   You referred to preparing or creating a special file.  Did you

 5     have the opportunity to consult that file when you provided this list

 6     that is contained in your statement to our investigators?

 7        A.   Yes, yes, of course.  We had to be very careful in drawing up the

 8     list because even if one single person was not included in the list, it

 9     would show a failure in our work.  That's why we did our best, we had a

10     lot of time to work on the case until we came up with that list.  Even

11     though we had a lot of difficulties in our work, after the war, we didn't

12     have all the necessary equipment, but we did manage to prepare the file

13     and to interview the members of the families of the dead.

14        Q.   You told us earlier that you yourself were a member of this

15     convoy.  I would like you to look at the list and tell me if you

16     recognise any of the names as persons you knew and whom you saw that

17     evening in the convoy.

18        A.   Yes.  I know many of them.  Some of them I knew only by sight,

19     but there are some whom I know by name and last name because, as you

20     know, often it happens that you know someone by sight, you don't know the

21     name and last name, and often you have them as acquaintances.  From

22     Gerxhaliu family, I know Kadri Gerxhaliu, with his brother who was

23     present and was executed there; then I know Shaban Gerxhaliu.  I used to

24     know some others, Musa Abazi a professor, with who I worked in the high

25     school in Vushtrri; and other names I know whom I saw that eventful night

Page 3179

 1     before the crime was committed.

 2        Q.   You said you knew Kadri Gerxhaliu and his brother.  Do you recall

 3     Kadri Gerxhaliu's brother's name?

 4        A.   Yes, for the moment I can't recall his name.  He was a student of

 5     medicine.  He was executed together with his brother.  Then it was

 6     Shaban Kadriu's uncle who was also executed with his son.  Then there was

 7     Enver Prronaj whom I used to know because of some family links.  I saw

 8     him together with his family before the crime was committed.  He was

 9     killed with his brother, whose name I don't know, whereas his name I

10     know, that is Enver Prronaj.

11             And some of them I met, with some of them I talked before the

12     crime on the way because they were driving their tractors.  I was alone

13     walking, and I could walk slowly but I could meet a lot of people along

14     the convoy.  Since I was alone, I didn't have a family with me, I didn't

15     have to drive a tractor or a cart, so I greeted people.  I saw also some

16     others whose names I didn't know but whose faces were familiar, like

17     Skender Haki Gerxhaliu and others.  There are several names actually that

18     are here which I used to know.  There are some whom, as I said, I knew

19     only by sight but whose names I didn't know.

20        Q.   Mr. Kadriu, you have the list before you.  I would ask you if you

21     could have a look and just indicate if there are persons who are on this

22     list that you have prepared who you recall seeing on the convoy before

23     the massacre took place.  You have already given us the names of some of

24     the members of the Gerxhaliu --

25        A.   Musa Abazi, for example, I knew him very well.  I worked with

Page 3180

 1     Musa.  We were colleagues in the high school -- in the higher --

 2     correction, high school in Vushtrri.

 3        Q.   And did you have --

 4        A.   Then, as I said, I knew Skender Gerxhaliu from the Gerxhaliu

 5     family.  Kadri Gerxhaliu, Shaban Gerxhaliu, Haki Gerxhaliu also was the

 6     brother of Skender.  I used to know Bajram Muliqi.  I knew the Prronaj

 7     family, Enver Prronaj and his family.  I don't know the name of his other

 8     family members, with the exception of his wife who was my sister's

 9     sister-in-law.  My sister was married to that family she came from, so I

10     knew her in-laws.  I saw them in their -- with their tractor.  These are

11     some names that I recall.  There are many others that I, as I said, knew

12     by sight whose names I didn't know.  We simply greeted each other when we

13     saw each other.

14        Q.   And if -- just to be clear on your answer, these names that you

15     have mentioned today are all persons that you personally saw in the

16     convoy when you were travelling with the convoy on 2 May?

17        A.   Yes, not only them, as I said, but I saw thousands of other

18     people.  But these were in the convoy together with their families on

19     their tractors with their women, children; and as I said I stopped by and

20     talked with them, especially those that I knew better.  I met others as

21     well, but these are the ones that I remember now since I had some family

22     links with them.

23        Q.   Thank you.  I want to move away from that incident, as it's

24     covered extensively in your written statement, and I just want to ask you

25     a few questions in relation to a separate incident that is referred to in

Page 3181

 1     your statement.  This is in paragraph -- on page 24 of your statement you

 2     refer to a killing that took place on 22nd May, 1999, and you also

 3     provide a list of victims to that incident.  Is this an incident that you

 4     also investigated yourself?

 5        A.   Yes, this is also an incident that I investigated together with

 6     the members of the committee of the investigation of crimes committed by

 7     the Serbs in Kosova.  And allow me on this occasion -- if you allow me,

 8     your distinguished Prosecutor, to ask the honourable Court that on the

 9     22nd of May very early in the morning after a large part of the city of

10     Vushtrri was encircled west -- east of the city the army forces came, the

11     police forces came from the western part along with voluntaries and other

12     groups that had come from Serbia, groups of paramilitaries and police

13     groups who evicted the family members from their homes.

14             And on the 22nd of May they were directing them towards the

15     cemetery of the city, separating some of the family members from the

16     convoy because they had to pass through a cordon of policemen.  These

17     policemen and paramilitaries who had also their armoured vehicles and

18     most of them were wearing masks or Balaclavas, they separated, as I said,

19     some of them and asked them to enter the house of Sezai Pasoma and some

20     other houses.  After they entered this house, they executed 74 persons

21     within a very short time.  At this time, the process of rallying the

22     people near the cemetery continued and houses continued to be burned and

23     set on fire.  So on this road, which is now called 22nd of May, 74

24     persons were killed.  When I came here to testify in the Milosevic trial,

25     these persons were described as missing persons, but the fact is --

Page 3182

 1        Q.   I'm going to stop you --

 2        A.   I simply wanted to make an explanation because I feel morally

 3     responsible towards their families because most of those executed on the

 4     22nd of May returned but there are some who are still missing.  And I

 5     think that this is an opportune moment to carry out the behest of their

 6     families which kindly asked me to ask this honourable Court to know about

 7     the destiny -- something about the destiny of those other missing

 8     persons.  When they were executed on the 22nd of May --

 9        Q.   I'm going to stop you there, Mr. Kadriu.  Do you have information

10     of -- on the fate of the victims that were killed on the 22nd of May?

11        A.   Yes.  This is where I wanted to come to.  The fate of these

12     victims was a tragic ones.  They were all executed, the 74 of them.

13     After that they were loaded into trucks and probably transported to the

14     mass grave of Batajnica, which is 300 kilometres away from our town.

15     Batajnica is a shooting ground for the Serb special forces, and the

16     accused who is present here in the court is more than anyone responsible

17     for such persons --

18        Q.   Mr. --

19        A.   -- he should tell us how it came that these 74 persons were

20     transported from Vushtrri and taken to such a military base for the

21     special forces in Belgrade.  I apologise, but I wanted to say this.

22        Q.   How do you know that these persons -- the bodies of these persons

23     were found at Batajnica?

24        A.   I know because after 2002 representatives from this Tribunal

25     exhumed dead bodies from this mass grave in Batajnica and the corpses of

Page 3183

 1     most of them, 70 per cent of the corpses, were returned to their

 2     families, the remains of their bodies.  So I was present in all the

 3     burials of such persons whose fate ended in such a tragical manner in the

 4     mass grave of Batajnica in Belgrade.

 5        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Kadriu.

 6             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honours, I have no further questions for this

 7     witness in relation to his evidence.  I do realise I forgot to read out

 8     the court summary for this witness.  I'm going to proceed to do that now.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

10             MS. KRAVETZ:  The witness -- I'm going to proceed to read a court

11     summary of your evidence.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't get translation.

13             Now, yes, I get it.

14             MS. KRAVETZ:  The witness was the President of the Council for

15     Human Rights in Vucitrn municipality.  He describes the situation in his

16     municipality during the Serb offensive in the summer of 1998 and the

17     build-up of Serb forces at the end of February --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Counsel is kindly asked to slow down.

19             MS. KRAVETZ:  -- at the end of February 1999.  On

20     27th March, 1999, the witness observed Serb forces setting fire to

21     private homes and destroying a mosque in the centre of Vucitrn town.  As

22     a result of the attacks across Vucitrn municipality, the civilian

23     population was displaced to the south-west of the municipality.

24             The witness speaks about the convoy massacre that took place on

25     the Gornja Sudimlja road on 2nd May, 1999.  He was one of the refugees on

Page 3184

 1     the convoy.  He describes that Serb forces attacked the convoy, and he

 2     provides the names of the victims.  After the massacre, Serb forces

 3     ordered the surviving refugees to proceed in the direction of Vucitrn

 4     town.  Serb forces led a group of more than 1.000 refugees through

 5     Donja Sudimlja to an agricultural co-operative outside Vucitrn.  The

 6     refugees remained at the compound overnight.

 7             On 3rd May, 1999, Serb police separated Kosovo Albanian men from

 8     women, children, and elderly, loaded them onto trucks and drove them to

 9     Smrekovnica prison in Vucitrn municipality.  The witness was among the

10     men who were imprisoned at this prison.  He describes the inhumane

11     conditions of detention.  On 23rd of May, 1999, the detainees were

12     released and had all their identification documents taken from them prior

13     to crossing the border at Zhur into Albania.

14             That's the end of the court summary of this witness's evidence,

15     and that's also the end of my questioning at this stage.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much, Ms. Kravetz.

17             Mr. Kadriu, I think we should explain to you a little of the

18     procedure we're following because it's very clear that you want to give a

19     long explanation of a number of things that have impressed themselves

20     very deeply on you.  You may understand that we have received this

21     morning, tendered through you, the full statement you made back in the

22     year 2000 and a full transcript of the evidence that you've already given

23     in this Tribunal in the Milutinovic trial.  The Chamber has all of that

24     material and the things that you are wanting to say now from my

25     assessment of it are things you have also said earlier, both in your

Page 3185

 1     statement and particularly in the evidence you gave in Milutinovic.  It's

 2     to avoid unnecessarily repeating all that that we are using the statement

 3     and the transcript.  So we have before us already the things that you are

 4     wanting to say again.  Don't think they're being ignored or overlooked.

 5     We have them.

 6             What now happens is that the Defence in this case will be

 7     questioning you in case there are issues important in this case that

 8     haven't been considered in the earlier evidence that you gave or may need

 9     to be highlighted from your statement.  And we then take all of that into

10     account.  I thought I should explain that to you so you understand.

11     Thank you.

12             Now, Mr. Djordjevic --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before the counsel

14     begins with his questions, it is true what you just said, I did give a

15     statement, but things have changed since then.  The truth is when, I

16     testified in the Milosevic trial, we didn't know anything about the fate

17     of 74 persons.  So as the time went by, light was shed on many things.

18             So as the years went by, we were able to see what actually

19     happened in our town, this terrible crime.  So please don't misunderstand

20     me when I put forward some requests before you on behalf of family

21     members.

22             In Prishtina a few days ago, there was a protest organised by

23     family members of the missing persons because there are about 1.784

24     persons unaccounted for.  So this is the best medium for me to put

25     forward this request to find out about the fate of these missing persons.

Page 3186

 1             The family members of these missing persons, when I go back in

 2     Kosova, will probably ask me about their dear ones.  So that's why I

 3     thought this was the best place to put forward this request, for the

 4     accused to tell us where the mass graves are so that these families find

 5     out where the remains of their dearest ones are.  And that would make the

 6     job easier even for this Trial Chamber, because that would enable the

 7     Trial Chamber to understand better what had happened in Kosova in

 8     1998 and 1999.  I think it would have been even easier for the accused,

 9     it would be a relief for him to tell us where the mass graves containing

10     the remains of our parents, of our brothers and sisters, are.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Please understand we are hearing not only you, we

12     are hearing a number of other witnesses concerning the important events,

13     and we are hearing a lot of evidence about those bodies that have been

14     found, the remains of people, and of bodies that have not yet been found.

15     So it's not just you on this day.  This trial is going to take a year or

16     so to complete.  We will have over 120 Prosecution witnesses.  So

17     understand we're putting together a great deal of information of what is

18     known today; and from that we must then reach our conclusions.

19             So please, don't think that you are not being heard or that the

20     concerns of those you are advancing to us are being ignored.  We are well

21     conscious of them, but you will understand because there is so much

22     evidence we need to hear it as quickly as we can and to move efficiently

23     through the body so that we can get the full picture, and that's what

24     we're trying to do today, so thank you.

25             Mr. Djordjevic.

Page 3187

 1                           Cross-examination by Mr. Djordjevic:

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Kadriu.

 3             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Judges, I will take very little

 4     time, but I would like to ask the witness and to say something that the

 5     Defence shouldn't really be doing but since it is on the record, the

 6     witness has asked about things that he knows, about facts, not about what

 7     he thinks, and the witness cannot violate the presumption of innocence

 8     and cannot urge the accused to tell the families where all the mass

 9     graves are located.  And since this is a prominent intellectual from

10     Kosovo who headed the Human Rights Council according to the CV that we

11     received, I would like to ask the witness to comply with the sacred legal

12     principles that we all have to abide by, but let me move on to my

13     questions.

14        Q.   Mr. Kadriu, I will be asking you only about things that I deem to

15     be relevant for this case, not only for the Defence --

16        A.   I didn't prejudice anyone.  I only stated what is a fact, that

17     this figure I gave you is the exact figure of the people missing.  I'm a

18     competent witness, and I competently state that this accused was

19     responsible for the transportation of bodies and their burial in this

20     mass grave --

21             JUDGE PARKER:  I must stop you.  You've been allowed a great deal

22     of liberty to speak without questions.  We need to proceed efficiently,

23     and we need to deal with the evidence.  If you would please listen to the

24     questions and answer those, and that will enable us to reach as reliable

25     a conclusion as we can at the end of the trial.  Thank you very much.

Page 3188

 1             And you, Mr. Djordjevic, will appreciate that this Chamber has

 2     regard to the onus of proof and it is for us and not a witness to be

 3     considering that.  So if you could move into your questions.

 4             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   Mr. Kadriu, now I would like to you to tell us, you headed the

 6     Human Rights Council as the chairman.  Could you please tell me, where

 7     was the seat of the Human Rights Council?

 8        A.   That is true.  I headed the Human Rights Council in Vushtrri.  I

 9     was the chairman of this council's branch in Vushtrri.  There was a

10     hierarchy.  The main office was in Pristina and every town had the local

11     branchs.  I was the chairman of the Human Rights Council for the

12     territory of Vushtrri.

13        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Kadriu.  Would you please tell me, as the chairman

14     of the council for the Vucitrn area, what were the objectives, the goals,

15     of what I assume to be an NGO, a non-governmental organisation?

16        A.   It is true that the council was an NGO.  The Human Rights Council

17     was formed as a requirement of time with the -- once the autonomy of

18     Kosova was revoked, the violation of the rights of ethnic Albanians from

19     Kosova continued.  That's why there was a need for this council to be

20     established in the capital and in other towns.  So our main duty was to

21     investigate cases of violation of rights of citizens in the territory of

22     Vushtrri municipality.

23        Q.   Could you tell me who founded the Human Rights Council in Kosovo?

24        A.   In the 1990s the Human Rights Council in Pristina, i.e., in

25     Kosova, was created by a group of intellectuals headed by Idriz Ajeti,

Page 3189

 1     Pajazit Nushi, and Adem Demaqi, after he was released from prison, joined

 2     the Human Rights Council and subsequently was appointed chairman of the

 3     Human Rights Council.  As you know, Adem Demaqi was sentenced to 28 years

 4     of prison because of his activities in protecting the rights of people in

 5     Kosova.

 6        Q.   My next question is this:  You told me that this council was

 7     founded because the autonomy of the citizens in Kosovo had been reduced.

 8     I take it that you're referring only to the citizens of Albanian

 9     ethnicity when you say that; am I right?

10        A.   That's correct.  In 1989, the autonomy of the citizens in Kosova

11     was reduced.  The majority in Kosova were Albanians, 95 per cent; the

12     remaining percentage, the Serbs, enjoyed all their rights, even greater

13     rights than the citizens in democratic countries of Europe.  However, the

14     Albanians were stripped the right to education, our schools were no

15     longer available to us, there was no employment for the Albanians, they

16     were removed from their jobs in factories that they had founded, they

17     were stripped of their right to social insurance and other benefits.  So

18     the autonomy of 1974 was revoked in this year.  Even Albanian mothers

19     were no longer entitled to give birth in hospitals.  We couldn't even

20     organise funeral cemeteries as they should be organised.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Funeral ceremonies, correction.

22             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   My next question is this:  Do you have any knowledge of

24     violations of human rights of Serbs and other non-Albanians in Kosovo

25     about any threats to their property, to their personal safety, violations

Page 3190

 1     of their personal integrity, crimes against honour of these people?  Do

 2     you have any knowledge of that?  Did you protect their rights too?

 3        A.   Of course we protected the rights of all the people who were

 4     suppressed by the government.  If the government or the administration

 5     committed violation of human rights against any citizen, we investigated

 6     the case, of course, if the citizen was willing for us to carry out such

 7     an investigation.  As the administration was a Serb administration, it

 8     doesn't make sense that that would violate the rights of the Serbs.

 9        Q.   [Previous translation continues]...  as the chairman?  As the

10     chairman did you draft any reports containing any Serb names or Roma

11     names or names of any other ethnicity, Turkish and so on?  Did you make

12     any reports that concerned human rights violations of non-Albanians?

13        A.   If a government regime, police organs, administration,

14     indiscriminately violated the rights of citizen regardless of their

15     ethnicity, we would investigate.  A Serb person was killed, and he was

16     taken to --

17        Q.   Answer my question.  I have to interrupt you.  You were warned by

18     the Trial Chamber that our time is precious.  Did you make a single

19     report, yes or no?

20        A.   You asked a question, and I think you should wait for me to

21     complete my answer.  I will give you my answer as I think I should answer

22     your question not as you want me to.  What I said is the following:  If

23     the government with its organs, with legislative system, police system,

24     and the judiciary, violated the rights of any citizen, there were such

25     cases, we would investigate; but, as I said, they did not violate the

Page 3191

 1     rights of the Serbs with the exception of one case when one Serb was

 2     killed.  You're looking at me now as if I didn't give you an answer.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Is your answer to the question no?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If there were such cases, yes, we

 5     would compile reports; but the government was a Serb government and they

 6     didn't violate the rights of the Serbs.  They served their best to these

 7     5 or 6 per cent of the population that was Serb.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 9             Mr. Djordjevic, continue.

10             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   You said that you protected those rights if they were under

12     threat, but were they under threat and did you draft a single

13     report - let me ask you again - dealing with the human rights violations

14     of non-Albanians, Serbs, Turks, and so on in Vucitrn, yes or no?  So I

15     can conclude that there were no violations of their human rights; am I

16     right?

17        A.   [Previous translation continues]...

18        Q.   Thank you.  My next question --

19        A.   There were such cases.  I mentioned one case, and I do have other

20     cases.

21        Q.   My next question:  As the chairman of the Human Rights Council, I

22     assume that you are familiar with all the human rights conventions, am I

23     right, international conventions that deal with human rights?

24        A.   You're right.  The Geneva Convention, I read it all.  I'm not a

25     lawyer by profession; but due to the circumstances, I did read it

Page 3192

 1     carefully, the Geneva Conventions of 1949.

 2        Q.   Did you understand that protection of human rights does not

 3     entail only violations that are carried out by governments, but that

 4     there are other forms of human rights violations?

 5        A.   That's correct.  But the nature of our work was such, that is to

 6     say to investigate cases of violence and repression carried by

 7     governmental organs, police, army, and so on.  But what you said is

 8     correct, there were such cases too, and we did take them down -- noted

 9     them down.

10        Q.   That's why I'm asking you.  Apart from chronicling what you did,

11     we know about it from the record and from your statement, did you also

12     chronicle the destruction of Serb property, serious violations of human

13     rights that occurred before 1998 and 1997 or not?  Since you say that

14     your organisation was established in the 1990s, if I'm not wrong.

15        A.   Look, sir, who could have possibly committed destruction of Serb

16     property when everything was in the hands of the Serbs?  Who dared commit

17     violation of the rights of Serbs when the Albanians were not even allowed

18     to freely live in their own houses?  There were no such cases.  The Serb

19     government did not allow us to live in peace in our own houses.  Had they

20     done that, had we been free to exercise our rights, there wouldn't have

21     been a KLA, there wouldn't have been a war.

22        Q.   You say 95 per cent Albanians and 5 per cent Serbs.  Where did

23     you get those figures?  Are you aware of some census that I'm not aware

24     of?

25        A.   I'm referring to the statistical data of the census carried out

Page 3193

 1     by the Yugoslav government in 1981.  There was no census after this in

 2     Kosova.  These should be the approximate figures with minor change I

 3     would say, 0 point something, but this was the structure of the

 4     population, respectable Counsel.  We cannot change it.

 5        Q.   Very well.  Thank you for your answer, but there is -- there are

 6     official data from the last census in Kosovo, and according to those data

 7     the ratio is not 95:5 per cent, but at any rate the Albanian population

 8     was in the majority and that's why I asked you this question about the

 9     threats to the human rights of Serbs in Kosovo.  But since you say that

10     the Serbs' rights could not be jeopardised -- please --

11        A.   Albanians were an absolute majority, but the government did not

12     belong to us.  We didn't have power.  As a peoples, we were the majority,

13     but it was the Serb government and the Yugoslav government that had the

14     power after 1989.  So 95 per cent were governed by 5 per cent.

15        Q.   What I want to know -- well, I'm not going to be asking you about

16     the political goals of the KLA.  I'm going to ask you about the political

17     goals of the Albanians, or rather, those who were the intellectual elite

18     of the nation in Kosovo.  So could you please tell me what were the

19     political goals of the Albanian intellectual elite?  You spoke about that

20     in your statement but I would like to ask you a direct question so that I

21     can get an answer from you.

22        A.   Counsel, can you be more precise.  What period of time are you

23     referring to so that I can give you a more concise answer?

24        Q.   Well, I'm talking about the period that was the watershed, in

25     your words, when the autonomy was -- when the Albanians, the citizens of

Page 3194

 1     Albanian ethnicity, were stripped of their autonomy and when the

 2     constitution of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and of the

 3     Republic of Serbia were amended in such a way that Kosovo was stripped of

 4     its autonomy, then there were demonstrations.  I don't want to ask you

 5     about that, about who participated, whether they were students or not.

 6     But I want you to tell me what were the goals of the Albanians in light

 7     of the situation that existed at the time?

 8        A.   To survive, to survive.  After the revocation of Kosova's

 9     autonomy in 1989, our very survival was at stake.  We were dismissed from

10     work, from institutions, we were driven out of schools of children's

11     creches; we were deprived of normal conditions to live.  I think this was

12     a genocidal act even though it is described as crime against humanity by

13     the Tribunal based on the Geneva Convention, it turns out to be a

14     genocide.

15        Q.   We'll get to that later, but my question was, let me repeat,

16     please listen carefully:  What were the political goals of the Albanians?

17     Would you please answer my question.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  The witness has answered that in a general way,

19     but the question is extremely general and it is perhaps naive to suggest

20     that all Albanians or all Albanian elite intellectuals had one political

21     goal.  Now, Mr. Djordjevic, we want you to appreciate that while there

22     may be a very important and interesting discussion for a lot of reasons

23     about the general political background and circumstances, this Chamber is

24     concerned with some very specific events in 1999, not with the long

25     history over the years that preceded that.

Page 3195

 1             And therefore, while we give you the liberty to ask some limited

 2     questions about the background, the attention needs to be focused on the

 3     matters dealt with the indictment.  If you could keep that in mind and it

 4     would be useful if your questions were very specific rather than so

 5     general, that would assist then the answer to be specific.

 6             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Am I right in saying that the goal of the Albanians was

 8     Kosovo Republic and that's -- that that was the basic demand?

 9        A.   That's right.  This was a request we had since 1981, yes, I agree

10     with you.

11        Q.   And would it be correct that it was every Albanian's dream for

12     all Albanians to live in a single state?

13        A.   We have this dream even today because we were unjustly separated

14     in 1913.  It's like having -- the people is like having a body.  If you

15     cut off the limbs of this body, you feel like you are handicapped, you

16     are disabled, and our people was divided in two -- in five states, and

17     this was an unjust act.

18        Q.   Is the reason for the founding of the Kosovo Liberation Army

19     precisely to realise that dream and aim and the beginning of the armed

20     conflict against the Serb forces in Kosovo?

21        A.   No.  In 1981 there was no KLA.  There were only students, youths,

22     workers who wanted Kosova Republic.  From 1981 onwards when the KLA was

23     created, many years have passed --

24        Q.   [Previous translation continues]...

25        A.   I gave you the answer.  It was the Yugoslav forces, the forces of

Page 3196

 1     Vlastimir Djordjevic, the police forces, and the forces of

 2     General Pavkovic that helped create the Kosova Liberation Army, it was

 3     due to this violence that people organised themselves into an army to

 4     defend themselves.  I think if you were in the same situation you would

 5     have done the same thing.

 6        Q.   Thank you for that answer.  Now, my next question is this:  Since

 7     you were on the territory of Vucitrn, can you tell me in percentages how

 8     much of the territory was under the control of the KLA and how much under

 9     the control of the Serb forces?

10        A.   To tell you the truth, it's hard for me to speak in percentages

11     because the KLA forces didn't have a permanent territory so to say.  They

12     had a part of territory for a while.  They waged guerilla warfare, and as

13     you know, you can't speak of permanent hold on territories.  I cannot

14     give you percentages.  They held part of territory for a while, then they

15     moved about, moved away from that and held another territory.  They were,

16     as I said, guerilla forces.  They couldn't wage a frontal war because the

17     Yugoslav power, might, was so strong that it routed them having so many

18     planes, tanks, cannons, missiles, and so on.  It was -- it is absurd to

19     think that guerilla warfare can meet up to such a might.  It's not that

20     they didn't want to.

21        Q.   Do you have any knowledge about how frequently clashes occurred

22     in the period let's say between March 1999 and June when the conflict

23     ended with the bombing, the NATO bombing, and so on?  How frequently were

24     there clashes and conflicts between the KLA and Serb forces?  Do you know

25     anything about that?

Page 3197

 1        A.   Yes, there were clashes, that's a fact.  But when the Serb forces

 2     used 80 armoured vehicles against Albanian ethnic villages, the KLA of

 3     course, waged an attack and then it withdrew to defend the villages,

 4     tried to cause some harm to this military machine of the army and the

 5     police.  There were such clashes, yes, but there were clashes on both

 6     sides.  What the army and the police left the barracks, of course they

 7     didn't go there to play football, your counsel, they went there to set

 8     fire to the houses, to kill people, to destroy everything they found

 9     there using the tactic of scorched land.

10        Q.   Do you know who Bislim Zyrapi is?

11        A.   I've heard about him, yes, I've heard about Bislim Zyrapi, but I

12     don't know him.  I never met him.  I simply heard about him through

13     newspaper articles, radio, television, but I don't know him at all.

14        Q.   Can you tell me whether the KLA - and you said it conducted

15     guerilla warfare - whether it used civilians frequently, Albanians?

16        A.   No, no, it didn't need to.  It was absurd what you are saying.

17        Q.   Have you ever heard of anybody having issued an order, that is to

18     say by the KLA commanders, that the population should withdraw from a

19     given territory due to circumstances on the ground and the change of

20     circumstances?  Have you ever heard of anything like that?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Now, my next question is this:  Do you know how the

23     KLA was organised?  Was it organised as an army or was it ad hoc

24     organisation?  Do you have any knowledge about that?

25        A.   Yes.  I was not the general of that army.  I dealt with human

Page 3198

 1     rights.  But to give an answer to your question, I may say, as I said

 2     earlier, that the KLA had its guerilla units.  It was not an organised

 3     army.  Had it been such an army, I don't think the Serb forces could have

 4     penetrated the country and committed 50.000 killings and,

 5     Vlastimir Djordjevic couldn't have come to Kosova as many times as he

 6     wished.  He has come from Kosova from north to south, but unfortunately

 7     we didn't have a powerful army.  Had we had such an army, things would

 8     have been different.

 9        Q.   Was Kosovo -- well, Kosovo and Metohija, the autonomous province,

10     was it the territory of the sovereign state of the

11     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the Republic of Serbia?  And I don't

12     see what's strange about any Serbian citizens going into the territory of

13     their own country, their own state.

14        A.   It was, but it was annexed violently as a territory.  You know

15     that following the Second World War there was a movement against

16     unification of Kosova with Albania.  This happened immediately after the

17     Second World War, and the government, the Yugoslav government of that

18     time, committed a massacre, a massacre against the population of Drenice

19     because they didn't want Kosova to remain under Yugoslavia.

20             You know the time of Shaban Polluzha?  He took part in the war

21     against fascism.  Where you treated him as an anticommunist.  It's a fact

22     that he was not a communist, but the people that were in his brigade,

23     6.000 people were killed, and families, homes were burned down only for

24     the sake because they were not communists and that they were Albanians.

25        Q.   Well, I don't want to enter into polemics about history, but I

Page 3199

 1     will stick to what is relevant for this case.  So I don't agree with you,

 2     but I'll go on with my questions--

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Can I interrupt again because matters are getting

 4     worse.  You, Mr. Djordjevic, are making political statements to the

 5     witness; and the witness is answering them not only politically but

 6     personally.

 7             You are speaking of the counsel as though he was an enemy or an

 8     opposing force.  This is a court.  We are to decide guilt or innocence,

 9     not you.  You should not address counsel as though he was an enemy.  He

10     has an important function to perform, a function that is responsible for

11     the protection of a human right.  We have to try and ensure that our

12     proceedings are fair.

13             Now, you should respect counsel and respect this Court, and we

14     then in turn will respect you and your interests and respect the

15     accused's and his interests and attempt to come to a just and fair

16     decision.  So if you would please, in future, show respect for the Court

17     and counsel.

18             And we would ask you, Mr. Djordjevic, to move away from a

19     political debate and come to the facts of this case.  Thank you.

20             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just wanted to

21     tell you that I wanted to ask the witness whether he was conscious of the

22     fact that the territory of Kosovo and Metohija was in fact Serbian

23     territory.  That's constitutional, legal category; and I apologise if you

24     misunderstood me, but my intention was nothing else than that.  But I'll

25     proceed.

Page 3200

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise to you, Your Honours, I

 2     apologise.  I said your state, your government, Yugoslavia.  I have

 3     respect for the counsel.  Maybe that was a misunderstanding.  I didn't

 4     mean to show disrespect for him.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Hopefully from this point on, both counsel and the

 6     witness will behave in a more responsible fashion.  Thank you.

 7             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   The massacre of the 8th [as interpreted] of May, as you call it,

 9     you say you were one of the witnesses in the column; am I right?  Saying

10     that?

11        A.   Yes, that's correct.

12        Q.   Tell me, please, what uniforms did you see members of, as you

13     call them, the Serb forces wearing?  Answer me that question:  What sorts

14     of uniforms did you see?

15        A.   Are you asking me about the 2nd or the 3rd of May, because the

16     2nd of May what happened happened at night and I, frankly speaking, I

17     couldn't identify the uniforms even though I tried hard, but it was dark,

18     it was night, and it was very difficult to identify the uniforms.  Maybe

19     I have to thank the fact that it was night because otherwise they would

20     have recognised me, and I wouldn't be hear to testify.

21        Q.   I'm asking you that because you said the police forces and then

22     you mention that again, so that's what I'm asking you:  What did you

23     actually see?

24        A.   Yes, it's understood that they were forces belonging to the

25     police and the army because it was -- the army forces had entered Bajgore

Page 3201

 1     mountains and used missiles and shelling, and the part that -- from --

 2     through which the convoy was passing, there were paramilitaries,

 3     militaries, police, and forces.  They were wearing masks, as I said,

 4     that's true; but when we came to the highway to Prishtina, a convoy of

 5     several APCs and other armoured cars passed by.

 6             So it was -- there were combined forces.  First the police

 7     entered the population ranks, killed and did what they did, and the army

 8     supported the police actions by shelling.  Counsel, this was done in a

 9     coordinated, in a concerted manner, by a commanding centre.  It is not

10     difficult to understand who they were.  They were not extraterrestrials,

11     of course.

12        Q.   Yes, I'm certain of that too.  But before it got dark, you say

13     the army, the police, the paramilitaries, et cetera.  So you saw members

14     of these units, but -- all right.  Explain what happened during the day

15     before it grew dark and before all these terrible things happened, as you

16     say, what kind of uniforms did you see round about?  What kind of

17     uniforms were worn by these people?  You explain masks and so on, so

18     explain that to us, please.  To the best of your recollections, of

19     course.

20        A.   You mean a day after when we were held hostages in a way in this

21     co-operative, in this agricultural co-operative, or are you asking me

22     about a period before that?  I'm not clear.

23        Q.   I understood it that you described to us that the army and the

24     police when the column set out and that was daylight, wasn't it?  So what

25     kind of uniforms did you see on that occasion?  That's what I'm asking

Page 3202

 1     you.

 2        A.   Usually the police -- the Serb army and police -- the police wore

 3     two kinds of uniforms, sometimes camouflage blue and there was another

 4     police force that they were wearing green camouflage with flak jackets,

 5     both of them.  Sometimes they had with them people who were not wearing

 6     some special -- specific uniform, they were wearing only some ribbons,

 7     some headbands.  It was, as I said, a combined force with paramilitaries,

 8     militaries --

 9        Q.   Let me interrupt you there.  You said "sometimes," but I'm asking

10     you about the day immediately prior to the events that took place, not in

11     general terms, but the day before, one day before the events occurred.

12     Not when you say "sometimes" and things like that, but that very day.

13        A.   Yes, that's why I asked you to clarify your question because I

14     was not clear.  Look here, one day before the 2nd of May I didn't see any

15     forces.  I simply saw the shells falling over Sllakovc.  They were

16     throwing them in an uninterrupted way.  I didn't see the police forces

17     one day before that, as you are asking me.  We saw the police forces in

18     the dark, as I said, like silhouettes.  But one day earlier we simply saw

19     and heard the mortar fire and we left before the forces came, be them

20     police or army forces.  We simply fled, because if they saw me and if I

21     saw him or them, they would have killed me.  So we made sure to flee

22     before they came.  It was not a British army.  They were fighting with

23     the police.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  With the civilians.  Correction.

25             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 3203

 1        Q.   Thank you.  You said in your statement that you recognise some of

 2     the policemen.  Can you clarify that, please?

 3        A.   Yes --

 4             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, I wonder if we could have -- I wonder

 5     if we could have a reference to the specific passage that my learned

 6     colleague is referring to.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  [Microphone not activated]

 8             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I tried to

 9     move quickly and I suggest that the witness tries to answer without me

10     wasting time finding the reference, but he did indeed say that he

11     recognised some of the policemen.  I can find it, but of course I need a

12     bit of time to do that.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 3rd of May, on the next day

14     I was saying.  That's true.  You have it in my statement, but it's about

15     the 3rd of May not on the 2nd of May.

16             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Yes.  And that's what I'm asking you about.  The people you

18     recognised, those policemen that you say you recognised, were they from

19     Vucitrn?

20             JUDGE PARKER:  This is on the 3rd of May?

21             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] That's right.  Yes, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  So that we both understand.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, on the 3rd of May.  Because

24     the way you posed the question made me believe you are asking me about

25     the 2nd of May, your counsel, that's why I was not clear.

Page 3204

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Now, on the 3rd of May you recognised some police,

 2     did you?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes.  I recognised many of

 4     them.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  You want names, Mr. Djordjevic?

 6             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] No, no.  But as he says he

 7     recognised them, I'm just asking him whether they were policemen from

 8     Vucitrn, the place he lived in; nothing more than that, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   May I hear your answer?

10        A.   Some of them, I knew that they were from the district of Vushtrri

11     with the exception of Simic, who was from Decan district.

12        Q.   So these people that you recognised, that's what I'm asking you

13     about.

14        A.   Yes, yes.

15        Q.   This man too from the area, the district.

16             Now, my next question is whether on the night of the 2nd of May

17     you happened to recognise any policemen?

18        A.   No.  They were wearing masks and it was dark, it was darkness.

19     Frankly speaking, no.  I tried to see if I could find some -- could

20     recognise someone.  May I explain something?  The convoy consisted of

21     30, 40.000 persons.  When the convoy was -- broke up after the shelling,

22     this second part of the convoy, this was where these people were killed.

23     Fortunately, I happened to be in the first part of the convoy.  And the

24     families that lost their members, some of them were entirely killed, they

25     recognised some policemen and some policemen were from Gojbulja village,

Page 3205

 1     a village inhabited by Serb population.  So the number of the killed was

 2     over 100.  It was, as I said, a real massacre.

 3        Q.   Thank you for that answer.

 4             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would need 15 to

 5     20 minutes more for my cross-examination; however, because of what is to

 6     follow, I suggest that we take a break now, the technical break.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Our procedure technically requires that we allow

 8     time for tapes to be rewound, which is half an hour.  We would normally

 9     have had our break in five minutes, but we will have it now and resume

10     then in half an hour from now, at five minutes to 11.00, and questioning

11     will continue for a short time.  Thank you.

12                           --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic.

15             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  [Microphone not activated]

16             [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17        Q.   My next question for you is this:  Did you personally have any

18     ties with the KLA; and if yes, what kind?

19        A.   Personally, I didn't have any ties with the KLA.  A brother of

20     mine, who studied in Tirana, as it was impossible for him to come back to

21     Kosova, he was wanted by the Serb authorities.  From 1992 until the end

22     of the war he remained in Tirana and dealt with logistical issues.  He

23     recruited members for the KLA, mainly Albanians who came from abroad to

24     join the KLA.

25        Q.   Could you tell me who Musa Terbunja is?

Page 3206

 1        A.   Musa Terbunja is an engineer in technology.  We used to work

 2     together in the same school.  When the war broke out, when Serb forces

 3     entered the villages, he went to the mountains and joined the KLA.  He

 4     was a KLA member.

 5        Q.   He was a KLA commander?  That's what you say in your statement.

 6        A.   He was a local commander I would say, a platoon commander or

 7     something like that.  I don't know what their organisation structure was,

 8     but, he was a sort of local commander.

 9        Q.   At page 12 of your statement, that's the last paragraph where you

10     mention him, you say, among other things, that the bus driver told the

11     Albanians who had gathered at the graveyard that the people would be

12     taken to Macedonia, and you say that you went to Sudimlja, where you

13     spent the night in the house of your friend, I asked you about him a

14     little while ago.  And then you say you went to Cecelija where the KLA

15     had some sort of a headquarters.

16             So what was the reason why you first went to the local commander

17     and then to the Main Staff in Cecelija or whatever it was that the KLA

18     had there?

19        A.   On the 2nd of May, I left the town illegally.  There was no other

20     way.  I had to live in hiding, go to the mountains, or find a place to

21     take shelter.  I could not walk openly.  So on the 2nd of May I went to

22     Studime e Poshteme -- excuse me, it wasn't on the 2nd of May, it was

23     earlier.  I think it was a month earlier, 2nd of April if I'm not

24     mistaken.  So that night I went to Musa Terbunja's house to look for

25     food.  It was night when I left to go there.  When I arrived in his

Page 3207

 1     house, I saw that there were many refugees staying there.  Are you

 2     following me, counsel?

 3        Q.   Yes.

 4        A.   There were many refugees there, so I decided, since there was no

 5     room to spend the night there, there were many refugees, I decided to go

 6     either to the house of Musa's relatives.

 7             So to this day it's not clear to me whether I spent the night in

 8     Studime with his relatives or in Ceceli, not in the KLA headquarters but

 9     in the house of Fadil Beqiri, and that's where I stayed for a whole

10     month.  There were refugees there too, but I did stay there a month until

11     the 2nd of May.

12        Q.   Thank you.  My next question is this:  During the time that

13     preceded the events in 1998 and 1999, as a citizen of the Federal

14     Republic of Yugoslavia were you criminally prosecuted or tried?

15        A.   Yes.  To my recollection, eight times we were taken, usually for

16     interrogation at the police station and then before --

17        Q.   [Previous translation continues]...  were criminally prosecuted

18     eight times?

19        A.   For offences.  Do you want to know why?

20        Q.   No.  I'm asking you whether you were criminally prosecuted, not

21     for a misdemeanour.

22        A.   In 1999, yes.  I apologise.  Before 1998, if you divide this

23     period into two, so 1998 and post-1998.  Before, I appeared eight times

24     just because I taught students in Xerxe as a professor and as an activist

25     of human rights.  I spent 20 days in prison just because I was a

Page 3208

 1     professor, taught our students and pupils in houses, private houses, not

 2     in normal schools because we were expelled from schools in 1990.

 3             The police usually would come to the houses, arrest us there,

 4     maltreat us in the presence of our students, take us to police stations

 5     for interrogations, and then before court.

 6             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   We have this in your statement, so I didn't want that.  What I'm

 8     interested in is the criminal prosecution, when and why were you

 9     criminally prosecuted?

10        A.   I was criminally prosecuted once when I was arrested on the night

11     of the 2nd of May between the two Studimes.  So this is a different

12     question.  That's why I wanted to clarify.  This is the only time I was

13     criminally prosecuted.  I was accused of being a terrorist despite the

14     fact that I was among 30.000 to 40.000 civilians in the convoy.  I was

15     charged with terrorism, dear counsel, although throughout my life I

16     worked as an activist of human rights and I taught children in schools.

17     Do you want me to explain to you how they prosecuted me?  I was arrested

18     between the two Studimes --

19        Q.   What -- for what offence were you criminally --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The speakers are kindly

21     asked to speak one at a time.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm talking about the 2nd of May

23     when we were arrested and they opened the Smrekonica prison or camp.

24     This is where we were arrested, thousands of us, about 1.000 were

25     arrested and taken to Smrekonica prison, where they charged us for

Page 3209

 1     terrorist activity.  This was about 13 or 14 days after the 2nd of May

 2     and they gave us document --

 3             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   [Previous translation continues]...  for what court and was a

 5     judgement handed down?

 6        A.   I don't know who they were.  There were civilians.  There was a

 7     secretary, a recording clerk, and it wasn't a judgement but it was a

 8     decision to charge us with terrorism.  They gave us a paper which read:

 9     I Sabit Kadriu was arrested in Qyqavica which was absurd since I was

10     taken from the convoy in Studime.  And when I said to them, You didn't

11     arrest me in Qyqavica, you arrested me in Studime, he said to me:  Who is

12     asking you --

13        Q.   [Previous translation continues]...  time is precious.  So I can

14     conclude that you were never criminally prosecuted and that you were

15     never convicted by any Serb court; is that right?

16        A.   I was charged, criminally charged.  I was issued this paper and

17     these papers were taken from us once we were released to Smrekonica

18     prison.  I think it was stated in this paper that we were charged with

19     this crime pursuant to Article 133.  It was a monstrous prosecution.  We

20     were prosecuted en masse, issued these documents, maltreated.  Many

21     people died because of this torture.  But as I said, this document was

22     taken from us once we were released from the prison.  I don't know why

23     they took this document from us, but they did.  We were in a camp,

24     counsel --

25        Q.   [Previous translation continues]...  can I conclude that there

Page 3210

 1     was no trial.  You never received a judgement that you are actually

 2     convicted of some crimes that you were involved in; that's what I wanted

 3     to get.

 4             Now I would like to ask you at page 14 of your statement you say,

 5     We learned that Professor Bajram Mulaku, former head of the DSK, the

 6     Democratic League of Kosovo from Vucitrn, Muharrem Shabani, and a

 7     villager from Sllakovc made a white flag and that they were leading the

 8     convoy.

 9             Can you tell us, if you know, what those people wanted, and what

10     happened to them, what their fate was.  Very clearly and succinctly.

11        A.   I don't know why they did that.  I didn't know who was leading

12     the convoy, who was at the head of the convoy, but later on I learned

13     that to my recollection, Ibrahim Muliqi; Bajram Mulaku, a professor; and

14     Muharrem Shabani, a former activist in the municipality before the 1989,

15     they had placed a white cloth on a branch and were leading the convoy.

16             At one point in time, the convoy stopped moving.  It is true that

17     I was somewhere in the middle of the convoy, and there nobody knew why

18     the convoy stopped moving.  Together with a friend of mine, Fadil Beqiri,

19     we started walking past groups of people and arrived at the head of the

20     convoy, although it was difficult to get there.  So when we got to the

21     head of the convoy, I saw these three persons that I mentioned and I said

22     to them, Why did you stop?  Why don't we continue to move?  They

23     replied -- one said to me ironically, Who dares to carry this flag and

24     carry on, then he's free to do so.

25             They said that at Rashice hill, where the police and military

Page 3211

 1     forces were positioned, from this position the place where the convoy was

 2     could be clearly seen.  So this white flag or cloth was placed and

 3     visible to the forces.  They thought that somebody from the police forces

 4     would come and make a way for the convoy to move.

 5             When we saw that nobody was coming there, we said to these three

 6     persons, You have taken up the function of leading this convoy.  Why are

 7     you not moving?  And they said that there was a curfew and that we could

 8     no longer continue with our journey.  The convoy was being targeted from

 9     behind as well.  We were blocked from two sides.  It was a valley from

10     the two hills.  There was firing.  Before us was the Rashice hill where

11     the police forces and military forces were stationed, and from behind

12     there were also forces that had burned Studime and that were following

13     us.  So these people thought that it was better to pass the night

14     there --

15        Q.   I have to ask you to stop here.  I want to ask you to stop here

16     and let me ask you briefly whether those three men told you that they had

17     been stopped by the KLA or not.  Are you aware of it or not?

18        A.   There was no KLA there at all.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20        A.   The Serb forces were there, sir, positioned at Rashice

21     neighbourhood.  They had been positioned there for months in a row until

22     the war ended.  The NATO aircraft wanted to target them, but I don't know

23     if they managed to.

24        Q.   Thank you.  I will now have a brief series of questions, and then

25     I will complete my cross-examination.

Page 3212

 1             Am I right when I say that you don't have any first-hand

 2     knowledge about the killing of people in Galica, so that you're not in

 3     fact an eye-witness?

 4        A.   That's not correct.  I wasn't there when they were executed, but

 5     I was there when we found the corpses.  Some villagers informed me, and I

 6     went there where these 14 bodies were lying.  Some of the bodies were in

 7     a group like here, and three/four bodies about 15 or 16 metres further.

 8     I would like to inform you, counsel, that three of the bodies --

 9        Q.   [Previous translation continues]... there any eye-witnesses to

10     the killing?

11        A.   From 22nd of May until the 24th of May when Qyqavica mountains

12     and the villages in that area were encircled, starting from the point of

13     Mitrovica and up to Obiliq, in this area more than 100 people were killed

14     during this one operation that was carried out between 22nd of May and

15     24th --

16        Q.   I'm asking you for the sake of saving the time to stop here and I

17     want you to give me a short answer because my questions are short.  We're

18     talking about the killing of people in the village of Galica.  Were there

19     any eye-witnesses there, not about any other places?  So were there any

20     eye-witnesses to the killing of the people in the village of Galica?

21        A.   Many because there were many civilians in Qyqavica.  I withdrew

22     these 14 corpses and other corpses in Qyqavica together with other

23     people.  We took this -- these bodies from the road, even their families

24     were not aware of their killing.  I found even bodies of my students,

25     students that I taught.  That's why I appeal for Mr. Vlastimir Djordjevic

Page 3213

 1     to carry out a catharsis --

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  That is the matter I warned you about.  Would you

 3     please desist from that sort of comment.

 4             I think the answer is the witness is aware of no eye-witnesses of

 5     Galica.  You're moving on?

 6             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  The

 7     witness said that there were many witnesses, yet in his statement in

 8     paragraph 3, page 8, he said that there were no eye-witnesses of this

 9     massacre.

10        Q.   Now, the village of Oslan, the municipality of Vucitrn --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The speakers have to speak

12     one at a time.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, counsel, I need to

14     clarify here.  Will you allow me to make a clarification, a small

15     clarification, about the youths from Galica?

16             I have a file, a case file, containing the names of

17     eye-witnesses.  I went there shortly after they were killed, but there is

18     a file here as an exhibit with the names of eye-witnesses.  Of course

19     maybe they were not there on the site.  Had they been there on the site,

20     they would have been executed too.  This was not an army fighting another

21     army.  This was an army that was fighting with civilians.  From the time

22     of the Genghis Khan.

23             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Thank you.  It is clear that there were no eye-witnesses.  Please

25     leave Genghis Khan aside.  If you want to answer my questions, fine; if

Page 3214

 1     not, I will have to put a stop to my cross-examination and then we will

 2     proceed differently.

 3             In the village of Oslan in the municipality of Vucitrn, the

 4     events from September 1998, am I right when I say that you don't have any

 5     direct personal knowledge of those events?

 6        A.   I do have knowledge.  More than 14, I think 16 people were killed

 7     if I'm not mistaken.  Ten years have passed, counsel, so I might be

 8     wrong, but this should be the number.

 9        Q.   The interpretation is incorrect.  Perhaps the interpretation is

10     incorrect.  I'm not asking you about your research after the events, but

11     your direct knowledge.  By that I mean that you were not present when it

12     happened, you were not an eye-witness, unlike that situation in the night

13     between the 2nd and the 3rd of May when you were a direct eye-witness.

14             My next question:  Is it correct that you don't have any direct

15     knowledge of the events in Zivode [phoen] and Bivolak in September 1998?

16        A.   You're asking me questions and not waiting for my reply.  Please

17     show some understanding.  From 22nd of September until the

18     24th of September, this massacre occurred.  More than 130 civilians were

19     killed.  I was moving around.  I come from those villages.  I would go to

20     Galica, I was go to Oshlan.  I didn't happen to be there at the time of

21     the execution, but I did see the bodies.  We collected the bodies.  We

22     buried the bodies, counsel.  If I was there on the execution site and

23     witnessed their execution, I would have been one of the victims and

24     wouldn't be here today.  I was there, part of that civilian population

25     there.  So I moved about.  I would go here then there, wherever I could.

Page 3215

 1     I have told you that we took part in the burial and in the withdrawal of

 2     these corpses because after they carried out their operation, the Serb

 3     forces withdrew.  Only when Sadako Ogata came there, otherwise they

 4     wouldn't have withdrawn.

 5        Q.   [Previous translation continues]...  already.  You testified

 6     about all that.  We know all that.  You've testified about this already.

 7     And as His Honour Judge Parker explained to you, all this is already part

 8     of the record.  I'm just trying to clear up some things, and after that I

 9     can only conclude that you were not there at the scene and all the other

10     conclusions are superfluous.

11             My next question is this:  Did you know in this case the 14

12     people, the eight people, the 12 people, did you know them personally,

13     the people who were killed in those incidents?  So I mentioned the

14     locations, Zivoljude [as interpreted], Bivolak, Galica, Pecici, Balince,

15     and so on?  Did you know those people who were killed personally?

16        A.   Yes, there was some that I personally knew; however, you're

17     commenting my previous answer.  You're telling me that I wasn't there,

18     there was no need for me to give an answer, and then you're commenting on

19     my answer the way suits you best.  And I don't think this is fair,

20     counsel.  I think you should show some understanding and allow me to

21     answer.  I said that I wasn't there when the people were executed, but I

22     went there shortly after.  They were buried on the same day when they

23     were executed.

24             As to your question whether I knew some of the victims, as I

25     already pointed out, in Galice I had some former students that had been

Page 3216

 1     killed, a man with his two sons, another man with his two sons.  Families

 2     have been completely destroyed.  There is no perspective for them.  Their

 3     houses have been destroyed.  They've been mentally destroyed.  I also

 4     knew Enver Haliti, a professor --

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  You were asked if you knew some of the people.

 6     Your answer is yes.

 7             THE WITNESS:  [No interpretation]

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  And part of the problem earlier, Mr. Djordjevic,

 9     is that you're asking whether the witness has knowledge.  He has a lot of

10     knowledge.  I think you meant to ask:  Were you present?  Did you see the

11     killings?  No need for debate.  I'm pointing out the cause of the

12     problem.  Okay.  So the way you frame your question is very important,

13     and then the witness knows how to answer it.  When you ask if he has

14     knowledge, you do --

15             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Bad interpretation, bad

16     interpretation.  [In English] Bad interpretation actually because --

17             JUDGE PARKER:  All right.  There's no need to go on and continue

18     with the debate.  I'm pointing out the source of the problem --

19             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  I don't want to --

20             JUDGE PARKER:  -- because it's wasting a lot of time.

21             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] That's precisely what I asked,

22     whether he was directly present, whether he witnessed that -- well, I

23     don't know whether he understood.  Maybe it's not his fault.  I just want

24     to find out what is right, what he knew.

25        Q.   Of course you said you knew some, you didn't know some.  Do you

Page 3217

 1     know for sure that none of those people who were involved in those

 2     incidents, who were killed in those incidents at the sites we mentioned,

 3     do you know for sure that none of them were members of the KLA?

 4        A.   I know that one of them in Oshlan was a KLA member.  He was not

 5     an active KLA member.  I'm speaking about one person in Oshlan,

 6     Mustaf Shyti is this person.  He's on the list.

 7             Respectable counsel, we're not trying to deny here that some

 8     people were KLA or not.  If they were, they were, and their considered

 9     martyrs.  The KLA dealt with the KLA members, those that had been killed

10     during the war and they had been proclaimed martyrs.  There are 46 KLA -

11     I'm giving you the figure - that were killed and who were from Vushtrri

12     municipality.

13             As I said, the Serb forces were not always fighting the guerilla

14     units.  They were fighting the mass of people.  They had thousands of

15     civilians to pick from.  They killed civilians, and that's what I'm here

16     to testify about, the killing of civilians, not about the killings of KLA

17     members.  The KLA has its own judiciary, their own commanders, advocates,

18     and so on.

19        Q.   Now, as a member, an honorary member of the organisation to which

20     you belonged, that is to say the council for the protection of human

21     rights, do you happen to know how many civilians in Kosovo were killed?

22     And I'm not asking you about the number of ethnic Albanian civilians but

23     the total number of civilians killed?

24        A.   I'm not the Zeus's head to have all the data and all members --

25     civilians living in Kosova.  But according to the records of ICRC and

Page 3218

 1     other organisations, about 15.000 people were killed in Kosova.  Perhaps

 2     this is not an exact figure because there are still 1.874 persons

 3     reported missing, and I would like to reiterate my request to ask the

 4     accused to clarify --

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  That will be enough, Mr. Kadriu.  That's the third

 6     time you've come to that topic.

 7             Is there anything further, Mr. Djordjevic?

 8             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   The 22nd of May, the massacre as you call it.  The figures and

10     information you have is information that you've gained indirectly because

11     you weren't there yourself; am I right in saying that?

12        A.   In a way, directly because when the war ended we visited all the

13     families of the missing persons and compiled the records.  And not only

14     once, but I visited this family every year because whole families have

15     been wiped out, their male members have simply disappeared.

16        Q.   My question is whether, when you conducted the many interviews

17     you made within the frameworks of the council for the human rights -- for

18     human rights, on crimes against the Albanians you say, do you have any

19     information about the uniforms that the members of the Serb forces wore

20     on that particular day, the 22nd of May; and if you do have information

21     about that, please tell us what you know, nothing more than that.

22        A.   Yes, I do have information on this.  Part of my family was in

23     Vushtrri that day, and in the eastern part of Vushtrri the military

24     forces penetrated, that's where my family members were.  Whereas, from

25     the western part -- in the western part of the town there were

Page 3219

 1     operations, combat operations, carried out by combined forces, by

 2     Frenki's units and other regular units wearing different sorts of

 3     uniforms, and they expelled the civilians from town and gathered them at

 4     the graveyard.  I think there were about 20.000 people who were expelled

 5     and directed to the graveyards --

 6        Q.   Just about the uniforms, if you can tell us about those, please.

 7        A.   I'm absolutely positive, because I spoke to families, were

 8     camouflage uniforms, blue camouflage uniforms, green camouflage uniforms

 9     with vests.  Some had helmets, some didn't, whereas at the site of the

10     graveyard Vucina Janicevic held a speech, Ljubisa Simic, and Dragan

11     Petrovic too before the mass of people.  They were the leadership.

12             Everybody who was older than 18 years old from the civilians

13     recognised them, with the exception of some women maybe who didn't have

14     the opportunity to go out very often.  So they separated the men and took

15     them to Smrekonica prison, about 700 or 800 of them, whereas 74 persons

16     were executed with the family of Sezai.  And the bodies of these 74

17     persons were transferred to Batajnica in the shooting range of Serb

18     special police forces.  And that's where they were found.

19        Q.   Now my next question, since you mentioned Batajnica:  Are there

20     any witnesses to the gathering up of these bodies and them being

21     transported to Batajnica amongst the people who you talked to?

22        A.   People saw the bodies being loaded on trucks and they mention how

23     they recognised a driver with a last name Popovic.  He worked for

24     Kosovo Trans company.  After they were executed, they were loaded onto

25     trucks and taken to Batajnica, and that's where they were found in 2002

Page 3220

 1     when the exhumations were carried out by ICTY representatives.

 2        Q.   The people you talked to who were survivors of the 22nd of May,

 3     did they tell you that they had recognised some of the people who were

 4     the executors on that 22nd of May?

 5        A.   They recognised the people who expelled them from their homes,

 6     some of them.  They were local policemen, whereas at the site of the

 7     22nd of May massacre it is true that they didn't recognise them because

 8     they were wearing Balaclavas and they were with APCs.  So on that day

 9     they were wearing Balaclavas, on the day of the execution, and the

10     operation lasted just for a very short time.  It was completely --

11     completed in a short time.

12             There are people who said that they didn't even dare to look at

13     these forces, otherwise they would have been picked up by them,

14     separated, and executed.  And you can imagine how human beings feel in

15     such circumstances.  All they want is to survive.

16             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that completes my

17     cross-examination.  I have no further questions.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Djordjevic.

19             Ms. Kravetz, do you re-examine?

20             MS. KRAVETZ:  No, Your Honour, no questions.  Thank you.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Kadriu, you'll be pleased to know that is the

23     end of the questions for you.  As I've pointed out earlier, what you said

24     today is merely in addition to your statement and the transcript of your

25     previous evidence.  So we have a great deal of information from you for

Page 3221

 1     which we thank you.  We thank you for coming yet again to The Hague and

 2     the assistance you've been able to give, and you are now of course free

 3     to return to your ordinary life.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I did my

 5     best to be of an assistance to you; however, I don't think we can ever

 6     manage to cover all the cases.  Things have developed in these ten years.

 7     There are many cases that I worked on and that have been not included in

 8     the indictment, for example, the execution of Selatin's family.  So I

 9     leave this courtroom with this burden of not being able to mention each

10     and every case despite my best efforts.  Every time the time was limited.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  We appreciate that and you leave us with the

12     burden of trying to properly determine the evidence in these matters.

13     Thank you very much.  The court officer will assist you out.  Thank you.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15                           [The witness withdrew]

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Neuner, your next witness is ready?

18             MR. NEUNER:  I hope he is.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  While we -- the next witness is coming, I would

20     just remind counsel of the programme next week because there have been a

21     number of changes as we are accommodating other trials in the courtrooms

22     available.  We sit in the morning on Monday and in the afternoon on

23     Tuesday and in the morning on Wednesday and Thursday of next week.  And

24     of course, Friday is a holiday and commences the break that we have

25     already indicated until Tuesday, the 21st, when we resume.  So morning

Page 3222

 1     Monday, afternoon Tuesday, morning Wednesday and Thursday.  And we trust

 2     by then we have dealt with the witnesses that are planned for next week.

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning, sir.  Would you please read aloud

 5     the affirmation on the card shown to you.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 7     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 8                           WITNESS:  DUSAN DUNJIC

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Please sit down.

11             Mr. Neuner has some questions for you.

12                           Examination by Mr. Neuner:

13        Q.   Good morning.

14        A.   Good morning.

15        Q.   What is your name and date of birth?

16        A.   My name is Dusan Dunjic.  My father's name was Jovan, and I was

17     born on the 8th of April, 1950, in Belgrade.

18        Q.   And in 2001 where did you work?

19        A.   In 2001 I worked in the Institute for Forensic Medicine in

20     Belgrade, and I was the head of that institute at the time.  And I

21     started my professional career in the institute, and I am still a member

22     of the institute.

23             MR. NEUNER:  Your Honours, I'm referring here to your decision of

24     the 11th of February, 2009, on the Prosecution's motion for admission of

25     transcripts of evidence of forensic witnesses in lieu of viva voce

Page 3223

 1     testimony pursuant to Rule 92 bis.  And in paragraph 1 and 2 of this

 2     decision, Your Honours have ruled to admit this witness's statement and

 3     his testimony from the Milutinovic case subject to him being available

 4     for cross-examination.  And for the record I'm referring here to

 5     65 ter number 2389, which is this witness's statement given on the

 6     9th till the 11th of May, 2006.  Could I seek to tender this document

 7     into evidence, Your Honours?

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00526, Your Honours.

10             MR. NEUNER:  And in the spirit of this decision I would also seek

11     to tender this witness's transcript which has the 65 ter number 5086 into

12     evidence, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  It also will be received.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00527, Your Honours.

15             MR. NEUNER:

16        Q.   And, Witness, I understand that before you came here today you

17     had an extensive opportunity to review both your statement and your

18     testimony, and you agree with the contents of both, do you?

19        A.   Yes, fully.

20             MR. NEUNER:  I will now read out a summary of what the statement

21     and this testimony contain.

22             Dusan Dunjic was head of the Institute for Forensic Medicine at

23     the University of Belgrade, and he still is.  Mr. Dunjic supervised

24     forensic exhumation teams which examined bodies at several sites in

25     Serbia in 2001, including at the SAJ firing range, Batajnica, outside

Page 3224

 1     Belgrade.

 2             His team exhumed bodies from Kosovo at the exhumation sites coded

 3     Batajnica 1 and 2.  In grave Batajnica 1, at least 36 bodies were

 4     exhumed.  In grave Batajnica 2, 269 bodies were found.  The witness

 5     identified and authenticated copies of the reports produced for these

 6     graves.  The witness also described the process by which bone and other

 7     tissue samples were collected from the bodies for DNA analysis and states

 8     that he transported, November 2001, a series of such samples to

 9     Dr. Alonso for analysis in Madrid in Spain.

10             The witness's evidence establishes the death of hundreds of

11     Kosovo Albanian victims buried in graves in Batajnica.  This witness's

12     evidence is relevant to paragraph 75(d) and 75(h) of the indictment and

13     its schedules D and H.

14             Your Honours, in order to proceed efficiently with the exhibits

15     adopted by this witness during the Milutinovic case, I would propose to

16     simply read out each of the 65 ter numbers of these exhibits so that the

17     Registrar could assign exhibit numbers for this case, if that pleases

18     Your Honour I will proceed that way.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Can you remind us of the number of exhibits.

20             MR. NEUNER:  I have counted 47, Your Honours, but I stand to be

21     corrected.  It could be one or two more or less.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Do you have the complete list there?

23             MR. NEUNER:  I have the complete list there.  I forwarded it to

24     the Registrar via e-mail.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Have you provided a copy to Mr. Djordjevic?

Page 3225

 1             MR. NEUNER:  Mr. Djordjevic has received the witness notification

 2     sheet, Your Honours, which contains a few more documents, six or seven

 3     more documents.  I have even in person consulted with my learned

 4     colleague before we met today in the courtroom and raised the issue and

 5     the Prosecution's intention that we are going to seek to tender documents

 6     this way.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  If I could then ask Mr. Djordjevic, is there an

 8     objection to any one of these documents?

 9             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we responded by

10     electronic post to my learned friend about the documents that we won't be

11     challenging and objecting to.  I don't have it in hard copy now, but all

12     the rest is contentious because when it comes to photographs, for

13     example, we don't have the source, who took the photographs and pursuant

14     to whose instructions.

15             So we have problems with the photographs and we have certain

16     findings which we cannot say we won't be objecting to.  But we've

17     informed the Prosecution about this.  We sent our response

18     electronically, so we're saying what we're not objecting to and what

19     remains to be discussed during the proceedings today.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  I'm trying to be economical of time, gentlemen.

21     The Chamber would be prepared to receive en masse but with separate

22     numbers those exhibits to which there is no objection.  And if there is,

23     then, a second group of documents which are photographs as to which the

24     issue is who took them, we can deal with that group of documents as one

25     separate matter.  What I'm not then clear is how many other documents we

Page 3226

 1     would be left with in dispute.

 2             MR. NEUNER:  Your Honours, in terms of the photographs, I've

 3     carefully listened to the suggestions from my learned colleague and I'm

 4     prepared to put some -- to lay a foundation to ask this witness who took

 5     photos so that we can then in a batch, meaning one by one, tender these

 6     photographs.  There are then some 16 reports left according to my list.

 7     And if my learned colleague so wishes, I would be prepared to quickly ask

 8     this witness a few questions.

 9             The bottom line as far as the Prosecution understands it is that

10     this witness has signed most of these reports himself, so I could walk

11     the witness one by one through the documents.  I'm not sure that so

12     spontaneously I could condense everything.  There are a few court orders

13     which we believe are very reliable on its face, court orders to the

14     effect that this witness and his team are to embark on performing such an

15     exhumation in Batajnica.

16             We would also believe that these are issues which can be dealt

17     with quickly, Your Honours.  And maybe even on cross-examination so that

18     Your Honours can simply assign the appropriate weight to these documents

19     after Your Honours have admitted them and my learned colleague had a

20     chance to cross-examine this witness on these documents.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic, with respect to the reports, is

22     your dispute with the authenticity of the report or is it with the

23     correctness of the opinions expressed in the report?

24             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  [Microphone not activated]

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, Mr. Djordjevic, please.

Page 3227

 1             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Well, I'm not going to challenge

 2     the opinions of Dr. Dunjic, but we have a practical problem here, for

 3     example, the report on the abductions compiled by a team of seven or

 4     eight experts, pathologists, pathophysiologists and so on and so forth,

 5     and they signed the findings of the autopsy of one body.

 6             Now, what we have here, we have the findings of Lirija Beqiri [as

 7     interpreted], for example, the protocol of this; whereas we don't have a

 8     link with the DNA profile, which the witness here compiled.  So that is

 9     why I cannot accept something that is Ba-12 without this link with the

10     DNA analysis showing that it was based on the remains of Berisha Lirija

11     [as interpreted].

12             So these are all matters that we could do is compare the findings

13     of the OMPF where the head of that department was Jose-Pablo Baraybar, a

14     witness we heard in court.  However, for the time being I'm going to

15     leave that whole issue for cross-examination or perhaps my colleague,

16     Mr. Neuner, can deal with it in chief.  Because from those findings and

17     that protocol we don't really know who the person is, there's no

18     identity, and with these -- and these seven pathologists say that because

19     the body was decomposed, it was impossible to establish the cause of

20     death, the identity of the person, and things like that.

21             So those are the objections that I have to raise and we sent them

22     yesterday afternoon to Mr. Neuner.  Thank you.  And there are a number of

23     such protocols.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Can we then try and break this up and move

25     forward, Mr. Neuner.  First, do you have the -- listed those proposed

Page 3228

 1     exhibits to which there is no objection?

 2             MR. NEUNER:  Yes, Your Honours, I have.  These are seven items

 3     which were listed in e-mail correspondence, and I'm prepared to read the

 4     65 ter numbers out --

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  What I'm thinking is that we will simply order

 6     that we receive the seven.  You can provide the list to the court

 7     officer, and he will over the next break or at a convenient time

 8     following that, give them appropriate exhibit numbers.

 9             MR. NEUNER:  Yes, I'm in Your Honours' hands.  I will proceed as

10     suggested.  So I skip, then, the seven agreed-to documents and move on to

11     pictures or photos.  And we are talking here about 26 pictures.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Now, you wish to ask the witness a few questions

13     about the photographs, do you?

14             MR. NEUNER:  Yes.

15        Q.   Witness, first of all, I understood from your evidence, your

16     transcript, that the exhumations started in June 2001, did they?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Can you tell me, on occasion of these exhumations, why are

19     pictures being taken?

20        A.   Photographs are taken to document the job that is being done as

21     evidence and as auxiliary resource for the identification, to facilitate

22     the identification, because details of injuries are recorded as are

23     details of the items and clothes that are found.  So as part of the

24     exhumation process and the autopsy that follows, all the details that

25     might shed some light on the mechanism of injury, the kind of injury, the

Page 3229

 1     way in which injuries were inflicted, clothes, and so on are

 2     photographed.  So elements that are needed for -- to identify the victim

 3     and also to determine the cause of death.

 4             As far as photographs themselves are concerned, photographs were

 5     taken at the time - and this is how it's done, it's done by the forensic

 6     technicians from the Serbian MUP on the orders of the investigative judge

 7     who issued an order for the exhumation and autopsies to be performed.

 8     And whoever is in charge of the exhumation and the autopsy in the

 9     field - and in this case that was me in Batajnica 1 and 2 - then asks for

10     some things to be photographed and verified in this manner.  In addition

11     to the written document done by the medical doctor or anthropologist, a

12     photo file is done.  This is how we do it.

13        Q.   Can you just, if you remember of course, tell us who was over the

14     forensic technicians who took photographs in the summer of 2001?  If you

15     don't recall, just say so.

16        A.   Well, believe me, I can't recall right now.  I think it's in the

17     report.  I think that's in the report that I provided in June 2006.  I

18     think it was Petar, I don't know his last name, but he was a forensic

19     technician who was assigned to us by the forensic department.  It was

20     done on the orders of the investigative judge Goran Cavlina.

21        Q.   With these explanations I'm just showing you a few pictures and

22     then would seek Your Honours to tender them and a batch of these

23     pictures.

24             MR. NEUNER:  If we could maybe look at 65 ter number 159 for a

25     second, please.  And I'm referring to page 1 here.

Page 3230

 1        Q.   Yeah, in very brief terms, what is depicted here?  Just in a

 2     sentence or two, please.

 3        A.   This is the Batajnica 1 site.  To the right you can see the tent.

 4     It is erected above the -- over the area where we carried out the

 5     exhumations.  The tent on the left-hand side, as I'm now looking at the

 6     photograph, is the area where we did our expert analyses, examinations,

 7     and autopsies.  The red vehicle is the -- a tank truck, and the white

 8     truck is in fact the refrigerator truck which is where we deposited the

 9     bodies that had already been examined by us.

10        Q.   And who took this picture?

11        A.   The forensic technician.

12             MR. NEUNER:  If we can just move on for a second to page 2,

13     please.  -- I'm sorry -- we can tender -- these are a couple of pictures.

14        Q.   Can you just say what this is here?

15        A.   We can see the entrance to the area where the exhumations were

16     carried out, and there is the ground sheet, the tent above it, and this

17     is the location of the exhumed area.

18        Q.   And who took this picture?

19        A.   The forensic technician.

20             MR. NEUNER:  Can I seek to tender this batch of photos,

21     Your Honours, with the 65 ter number 159?

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic, do you maintain your objection to

23     the photographs?

24             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Although this is not usual

25     procedure, I would like to ask the professor to tell me whether this is

Page 3231

 1     the forensic technician from the police or from the institute, the person

 2     that took the photographs.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  The evidence is that it's the forensic technician

 4     from the MUP, the police.

 5             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] And that the photographs were

 6     taken on the orders of the investigative judge.  Did Professor Dunjic

 7     issue any orders?  That's all I want to know.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I answer?

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Please.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The investigative judge is in

11     charge of the proceedings, and he appointed the forensic team.  I was a

12     representative.  And from the Serbian MUP he obtained the forensic

13     technician because we demanded that the forensic technician should be

14     present there and he was and he took all the photographs of the course of

15     our work and the autopsy.  And we directed him, our --

16             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] It will be sufficient.  I do not

17     object.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Djordjevic.

19             The Chamber then has so far received seven agreed exhibits, which

20     come under a category of capital A, and it now receives under category B

21     of the schedule, prepared by the Prosecution, some 26 photographs.  And

22     the court officer will in due course allocate numbers, and they will be

23     reported on.

24             Now, the Chamber has briefly discussed what to do with the

25     reports that are listed by the Prosecution for tendering, and what the

Page 3232

 1     Chamber proposes to do in respect of each of those reports is to receive

 2     them as an exhibit subject to the cross-examination that will be, where

 3     necessary, pursued by Mr. Djordjevic.  So in a sense a conditional

 4     receipt at the moment; and if there is any concern at the end of the

 5     evidence, we will give further consideration to the question of the

 6     status of the exhibit.  And those reports, therefore, are received.

 7             And that then leaves five further documents under category D.  Do

 8     you feel that assistance would be achieved with respect of any questions

 9     to the witness about any of those?

10             MR. NEUNER:  First of all, Your Honours, I wanted to note that

11     four of these documents have been discussed already during the

12     Milutinovic case.  And in the schedule which I handed out to the

13     Registrar, I have listed the transcript pages of the Milutinovic

14     transcript where these four of the five documents had been already

15     discussed.  So we believe this in itself provides already some background

16     explanation.

17             The information was also put in our 92 bis motion on forensic

18     experts, so they have thereby -- it has thereby been communicated to the

19     Defence who could take this information on board to prepare its

20     cross-examination today.  Therefore, we would think that, yeah, on four

21     of these documents we don't need to ask any further questions.

22             I'm prepared to ask on the final document, 2411 is the

23     65 ter number, a few questions, and otherwise seek to tender all five

24     documents, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Ask the question.

Page 3233

 1             MR. NEUNER:  Could we have 65 ter number 2411 on the screen for a

 2     second, please.

 3        Q.   Witness, if you just have a short look at this.  That's just the

 4     first page.  Can you explain -- or have you seen that document, first of

 5     all?

 6        A.   Yes, yes.

 7        Q.   Can you give a brief explanation about it.

 8        A.   This is a list of documents that I forwarded to the investigative

 9     judge Milan Dilparic.  Lest there should be any confusion, Batajnica 1

10     was managed by investigative judge Goran Cavlina; Batajnica 2 was managed

11     by the investigative judge Milan Dilparic, that's why you have two last

12     names being mentioned.  This pertains to site 2.

13             This is a list of documents that we submitted including the

14     autopsy reports or protocols, the photographs, the exhumation protocols

15     with the photo files, the anthropologist reports, the record of bones of

16     individuals, list of loose clothes and items, and the list of items

17     turned over to the court depository.  This is the document.

18        Q.   You have given a very lengthy explanation about the document --

19             MR. NEUNER:  With which I would ask Your Honours to also tender

20     this document with the 65 ter number 2411 into evidence, please.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  The Chamber is of the view that it will receive

22     the five documents in the category D on the list, again subject to

23     cross-examination, if any, in respect to each of these documents.  So for

24     the moment they will each be exhibits, and at an appropriate time the

25     Registrar will indicate the numbers and you can proceed then on the basis

Page 3234

 1     that they are before the Court.

 2             MR. NEUNER:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I would have just one

 3     final small topic to deal with, and this is to facilitate the access to

 4     these pictures and to the documents by Your Honours.

 5        Q.   Witness, on some of the pictures, especially when bodies are

 6     mentioned, there are some codes -- signs with codes Ba dash and then a

 7     number follows.  Could you just explain to Your Honours who assigned

 8     these codes?

 9        A.   Our team, my team.  In accordance with an agreement gave the

10     designation, Ba is the letter designation for Batajnica.  And as far as

11     the numerical designation is concerned, it is assigned to each body or

12     body part identified on the site.  And this number, it then goes together

13     with this person and all the items associated with this person from the

14     beginning to the end of the procedure.

15        Q.   Just one more question.  If you told us you dealt with two mass

16     graves Batajnica 1 and Batajnica 2.  If you would or your team would

17     assign a number for the first grave, how would that number look?  Or a

18     second question:  If your team would assign a number for a body in the

19     second grave, how in opposition to that, would this number look like?

20        A.   The second site would have number 2 in front of the letters Ba.

21     That is the second location at Batajnica, and then the numerical

22     designation for each body.

23        Q.   So if I have a body Ba-2 dash and then another number, from which

24     grave would that be?

25        A.   That's from Batajnica 2.  It either says Ba-2 or 2-Ba.  Later on

Page 3235

 1     we adopted the approach to write 2-Ba, and that also pertains to

 2     Batajnica 2.

 3        Q.   And if I would have a number Ba dash and then a number, from

 4     which grave would that be, Batajnica?

 5        A.   Batajnica 1.

 6             MR. NEUNER:  The Prosecution has no further questions,

 7     Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  And in the interests of time and

 9     certainty, we would ask the court officer to file a memorandum listing

10     all those exhibit numbers.

11             Now, Mr. Djordjevic, your cross-examination.

12             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Let me

13     just get ready.

14                           Cross-examination by Mr. Djordjevic:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

16        A.   Good afternoon.

17        Q.   Professor, you are a doctor of medical sciences.  I would like

18     you to just tell us briefly what area did you receive -- where did you

19     receive your doctoral degree?

20        A.   Forensic medicine.

21        Q.   Thank you.  My next question:  I would now like to ask you to

22     tell us briefly about your professional career from the time when you

23     graduated, your specialisation, and your master's degree, all the way up

24     to your doctoral degree.  You are a witness here but you're also an

25     expert.

Page 3236

 1        A.   Well, since I'm a witness, the colour of my hair tells you all

 2     you need to know about my career.  So in 1976 I received my

 3     master's degree, M.Sc., and I received my doctoral degree in 1980.  Both

 4     of these degrees are in forensic medicine.  I, of course, have a degree

 5     in medicine.  So in 1980 I received a doctoral degree in forensic

 6     medicine, and from my first job I have been working in the field of

 7     forensic medicine.

 8             I have published nine books, over 180 papers in professional

 9     journals.  I testified in a number of cases throughout Yugoslavia and

10     Serbia.  And I was also -- I have also been asked to testify both for

11     Defence teams before this Tribunal and for the Prosecution as an expert

12     witness.

13             I have enough professional experience because since 1990 I have

14     worked a lot in the field, in Croatia, in Bosnia.  I did research on

15     torture victims of all ethnic backgrounds, not only Serbs, I would like

16     to stress that, and several books were written about that.  I dealt with

17     the Racak case, the village of Racak.  I also dealt with the Radonjic

18     lake near Glodjane.  It was a widely publicised case in Kosovo.  And as

19     for the other major cases, unfortunately I also did the expert report on

20     the assassination of Prime Minister Djindjic.

21        Q.   My next question, professor, is:  Are you a permanently appointed

22     court witness?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Can you tell us since when have you been a permanently appointed

25     court expert?

Page 3237

 1        A.   I think it's officially since 1980.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Can you explain to us what is it, the forensic

 3     medicine committee or board of the medical school in Belgrade?

 4        A.   It is a body of the medical school in Belgrade which is

 5     considered to be the third-instance body for super-expertise.  There are

 6     professors from various specialised fields and the court refers to it

 7     when the expert witnesses differ in their opinion about the same matter.

 8             And it's opinion, the opinion of the forensic medicine

 9     board - and there is also the forensic psychiatry board which is part of

10     it - is the definitive opinion, the definitive report, which is then

11     presented to the court.

12        Q.   The findings in Batajnica, Mr. Dunjic, were done by the

13     commission of experts of medical doctors and you headed this commission?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   The other members are Dr. Slobodan Savic, Marija Djuric,

16     Dragan Jecenica, Vesna Djokic, Djordje Alempijevic, and

17     Tatjana Atanasijevic.  Now who put together this commission, was it you

18     or was it somebody else's decision?

19        A.   It was my decision.

20        Q.   What was the decision based on?

21        A.   As the head of the institute, when I received an order from the

22     investigative judge Goran Cavlina to set up a team to do the exhumations,

23     with regard to the scope of work that could be anticipated I put together

24     this team.  But I had to leave some of my colleagues behind in the

25     institute so that they could deal with the routine jobs of the institute.

Page 3238

 1     So I put together this commission from the personnel who could actually

 2     do that at the time.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  My next question:  Professor, could you please

 4     explain to us the role of the forensic anthropologists on your team.

 5        A.   The forensic role of the anthropologists in my team and in all

 6     teams of this kind, the role of forensic anthropologists is to assist us

 7     with the identification of the -- any injuries that could be found on the

 8     bodies, any changes to the bodies, and also to assist us to determine the

 9     sex, the age, the height of the body.  It's an estimate that they do on

10     the basis of the standards that the anthropology has at its disposal.

11        Q.   Were there any foreign observers who participated in your work or

12     perhaps representatives of this Tribunal, the OTP; and if yes, who were

13     they and what was their role?  And do you have any particular

14     observations that you would like to share with us in this regard?

15        A.   When Batajnica 1 was opened up, that was the first site, that's

16     why it was designated with number 1, we were not aware of all the others.

17     On the orders of the court, Goran Cavlina, and the president of the

18     district court, Ms. Vida Petrovic-Kero, it was decided that only they

19     could allow other persons to be present at the site itself.  And all

20     those who came first had to report to them to receive approval and

21     authorisation; and once they were at the site, I gave my approval.

22             But I strictly prohibited any interference with the professional

23     work in the field.  I prohibited any photography.  So there is only one

24     set of photographs, the photographs that we appended to our findings.

25     Whatever else exists was not done with my approval or the approval of the

Page 3239

 1     court.  We wanted to be as professional as possible, and at that time we

 2     received visits from a number of delegations.  And Mr. William Fulton was

 3     there on behalf of the Tribunal and Brenda Kennedy, I believe, as an

 4     anthropologist, but they were there as observers.

 5        Q.   And tell me, what was Mr. Fulton's profession?

 6        A.   As far as I can understand, he was an investigator because when

 7     we started doing our job we were able to obtain all kinds of equipment

 8     through him that we could not have obtained otherwise and that enabled us

 9     to do the job, gloves, overalls.  We had a certain quantity of those

10     items, but we went through them very fast.  So we asked him to assist us

11     and to get the overalls, the boots, and the gloves and all other supplies

12     of this sort as soon as possible.

13        Q.   I assume that this answer that I'm receiving from you, that it

14     has to do with Batajnica 1?

15        A.   Both Batajnica "jedan" and Batajnica 2, it was the same

16     principle.

17        Q.   Very well then.  The same persons were present as far as the

18     observers are concerned?

19        A.   Well, I have to tell you that I don't really know.  There was an

20     NGO there too as far as I can recall or a human rights committee or

21     something like that, I don't know what it was called.  And there were two

22     or three girls who took this in shifts, and they observed our work.  But

23     the daily reports were submitted only by me and only to the investigative

24     judge who had issued the order.  So all of their reports and so on are

25     not official.  The only official thing is the report that I submitted to

Page 3240

 1     the judge orally and in writing.

 2        Q.   The Defence is particularly interested in knowing whether the

 3     exhumation -- exhumations were ever attended by the representatives of

 4     the OPMF [sic].  I don't know if you know who they are, what that is.

 5        A.   Could you please translate.

 6        Q.   Yes, I thought so.  It is an UNMIK body that deals with forensic

 7     medicine in Kosovo and pathology in Kosovo, and it was headed by

 8     Mr. Jose-Pablo Baraybar, an anthropologist.

 9        A.   The first time that I met Jose-Pablo Baraybar was in the

10     Forensic Medicine Institute.  He came there as part of the UNMIK team,

11     and since, at the time, I was in charge of all the things that were being

12     done at Batajnica and at the same time I was a member of the coordination

13     centre of the Serbian government for Kosovo and Metohija, after the first

14     exhumations at Batajnica 1 followed by Batajnica 2, there was a problem

15     of how to identify the bodies.

16             And we took bone samples, we stored those samples, and I

17     personally took the first batch of those bone samples on the orders of

18     the court to Madrid.  The DNA profiles from Madrid that we got back, we

19     had to compare them to the data collected by UNMIK because we didn't go

20     to Kosovo.  UNMIK collected blood samples from the relatives of the

21     missing persons and took post mortem information for the purpose of

22     identification, stories from other people.  And we used those elements to

23     identify the victims, and on the orders of our court and our judge,

24     Judge Dilparic, a comparison was made.  And this is the first time that I

25     met Mr. Baraybar who came there.  And an arrangement was made that all

Page 3241

 1     those who had gone through our identification process and who had been

 2     exhumed at Batajnica 1 and 2 sites should be transferred back to Kosovo

 3     once their identity had been determined.  And that was the first time

 4     that I learned that all these bodies that we transferred to Kosovo

 5     through the coordination centre were then examined by some persons.  I

 6     didn't know who those persons were.  So the bodies that we exhumed and

 7     examined and so on and so forth.

 8        Q.   Now, professor, you said that you carried certain parts of the

 9     skeleton for DNA analysis to Madrid; did I understand you correctly, that

10     you took them to Madrid, and I assume that they were parts of bones,

11     ribs?

12        A.   No, they were samples of the femur, 2 centimetres of femur were

13     taken.  And if an arm was found, for example, separate from a body and

14     anthropologically it couldn't be incorporated into the remains of a body

15     found somewhere else, then we would take a sample of the upper arm bone,

16     the shoulder bone.

17        Q.   Was that enough to establish DNA profiles and to identify the

18     individual concerned?

19        A.   It was sufficient only for establishing a DNA profile.  Now --

20        Q.   Is that what UNMIK did?

21        A.   For the DNA profile to be able to be compared with something,

22     then a DNA profile of the blood had to be taken of persons reported

23     missing.  And then by correlating those results and comparing them, you

24     can establish who the person was and whether it's the same person.

25        Q.   As we're coming up for our technical break now, I have one more

Page 3242

 1     question before we do break to round off this topic and it is this.  What

 2     I'm interested in now is the following:  Did you take from all the bodies

 3     in Batajnica 1 and 2 samples of the femur or arm bone or whatever in

 4     order to establish the DNA profile as you said, and did you take them to

 5     Madrid?

 6        A.   Only from Batajnica 1, we took samples only from Batajnica 1 to

 7     Madrid as far as I remember.

 8        Q.   Now, what happened to the remains from Batajnica 2 relevant to

 9     DNA profiles?

10        A.   All the samples that were taken, we then consulted the judge and

11     reached an agreement with him and he contacted the ICMP, whereby they

12     should take over the samples, because at that time, the end of 2001/2002,

13     a DNA laboratory had already been established in Sarajevo I believe.  And

14     after that we, in our institute, got a DNA laboratory and there was

15     another one in Banja Luka.  So these three independent institutions

16     analysed the DNA profiles obtained.  And as far as Batajnica 1 is

17     concerned, the samples from Batajnica 1, and the bone samples from

18     Glodjane or the Radonjic Lake, which I did with my team, those samples

19     were also taken to Madrid.  So those two sets of samples from Glodjane or

20     lake Radonjic, the victims found there in 1998, and the ones from

21     Batajnica 1 dating to 2001.

22             So it had to be done that way in order to gain permission and

23     authorisation from the president of the district court and to keep it

24     within the confines of the law for this biological material to be taken

25     abroad for identification or other DNA analysis.

Page 3243

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] May I propose a break now,

 3     Your Honours?

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.  We have our second break now, and

 5     we'll resume at 1.00.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic.

 9             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Professor, you said that the first DNA

11     laboratories in the Balkans started up when Sarajevo received its and

12     then this was followed by Belgrade and Banja Luka; right?

13        A.   Well, I wouldn't say the Balkans, but in our former Yugoslavia.

14     I think that in Zagreb a DNA laboratory began to work parallelly, and in

15     our institute this was in 2002, the end of 2002.

16        Q.   What I didn't understand very well was this:  Batajnica 2, your

17     commission, the team of experts, did you take from the bodies there,

18     samples for obtaining DNA profiles or not, as was the case with

19     Batajnica 1?

20        A.   Yes.  Now I have an aide-memoire here, the

21     15th of September, 2001, samples were taken of bones from the -- of

22     samples from the femur, not one sample but two samples, and these were

23     taken from the Batajnica 2 location.

24        Q.   And did you obtain the DNA profiles for persons from which you

25     took the samples for the DNA analysis?

Page 3244

 1        A.   The ICMP, which was a mediator, that is to say the

 2     International Organisation for Missing Persons, they sent us

 3     successively, as the groups were processed and identities established,

 4     they sent us these successively because they had the DNA bone samples

 5     that we sent to them pursuant to authorisation from the court and they

 6     had the DNA profile from the bloods -- the blood samples taken from

 7     family members who reported these persons missing and this was supplied

 8     to them by UNMIK from Kosovo.

 9        Q.   When you obtained this material, the material you say you

10     received from that institution, did you also receive the identities of

11     the persons, wherever that identification was made possible?

12        A.   Well, that's a complicated question.  It's complicated for me to

13     answer it, but it boils down to the following:  The DNA profile that we

14     received, and that's what the report looks like, you have the DNA profile

15     of the bones with a marking that we found in the locality and they are

16     numeric values.  Then you have the DNA profile by name and surname

17     obtained from the blood samples of one, two, or three relatives and that

18     was sent in by UNMIK.

19             And on the basis of all that together, the ICMP concluded that

20     the person from which the blood sample was taken was named such and such.

21     Now, that's not where the identification process ends.  It doesn't end

22     there because, based on our experience and in cooperation with our

23     experts for genetics or expert for genetics, we now performed a

24     comparative analysis.  And the post mortem information in written form

25     taken by UNMIK about the missing persons, for each individual person, was

Page 3245

 1     compared.

 2             So when I got to know Jose-Pablo Baraybar, that data was written

 3     down and compared to our autopsy and anthropological findings and also

 4     with the DNA protocols and reports that came in to us from the ICMP.  And

 5     then we correlated them all, compared and contrasted the data to see

 6     whether it all corresponded and whether it was the person in question.

 7     And then as a team, as a commission, on the basis of all the parameters

 8     available, we would make our conclusions that in such and such a case

 9     Batajnica 1 or Batajnica 2 it was such and such a person on the basis of

10     all the analysis that went beforehand.

11        Q.   Thank you.  That makes things much clearer.  What I'd like to ask

12     you now is this:  When we speak about your work on Batajnica 1 and 2 and

13     your meeting -- meetings with Jose-Pablo Baraybar - you said that he came

14     to visit your institute - so in relation to those two events, that is to

15     say the exhumation process of Batajnica 1 and 2, when did he actually

16     appear?  What point in time did he appear?

17        A.   Well, I really can't be precise.  I'm trying to think back and

18     remember, but I think it was already once we had completed the analysis

19     of Batajnica 2 and when the first DNA analyses coming back to us --

20     coming in to us and when the first repatriations began.  And you're

21     asking me when that was?  Well, I can't be precise.  I don't really know.

22        Q.   Now, with respect to your involvement in the exhumation process

23     and the expert analyses and so on and so forth and as you headed the team

24     of experts, did you know whether there was a protocol on cooperation

25     between UNMIK or the OPMF - which is how UNMIK functioned, the forensic

Page 3246

 1     medicine and pathology institute that Baraybar headed - and the Serb

 2     authorities?  Was there a protocol on cooperation of any kind between

 3     these instances?

 4        A.   Well, please believe me when I say I don't know anything about

 5     that.  I just happened to hear or there was some information going round

 6     as a piece of information that they asked for something like that and

 7     sought to obtain something like that, but I personally don't know about

 8     that because it was the time when on both sides of the border there were

 9     requests and demands for identification and for uncovering the missing

10     persons, the ones from Batajnica and in Kosovo itself because our experts

11     couldn't go there.  I couldn't go to Kosovo with my team nor could other

12     experts from our country.  They couldn't go there to look for remains or

13     conduct exhumations for persons that were known to have gone missing in

14     Kosovo.

15             And the only time I was there was in 1998 and in January 1999

16     when I did Glodjane and Racak.  After that, after the bombing, in 1999

17     that was impossible.  I couldn't go there as an expert.  And then there

18     was this tension all the time as to whether a team from Serbia could go

19     to Kosovo to do the exhumations or could an Albanian team come to

20     Batajnica.  And a colleague of mine, he was an Albanian from Pristina, I

21     believe, I can't remember his name just now, he was a younger colleague

22     of mine, came to see how we proceeded Batajnica 1 and 2.  He would come

23     to the institute.  He said he was very pleased to come and see.  We would

24     say we were very pleased to have him because there was no question of

25     concealing anything.  So this was as far as professional information was

Page 3247

 1     concerned and the exchange of that information.

 2        Q.   Now, in all these unfortunate circumstances, mention is made of

 3     two more locations, they are Petrovo Selo and Perucac.  There was another

 4     team working there headed by Dr. Radovan Karadzic.  You know him?

 5        A.   Yes, of course, certainly.  He is an assistant professor in Nis.

 6        Q.   Your colleague.  And he headed one of those teams unless I'm very

 7     much mistaken?

 8        A.   In Petrovo Selo?

 9        Q.   Yes, that's right.

10             Now, linked to this protocol on cooperation you say that you have

11     it -- have some very vague information about that and that you think you

12     heard something about that, but anyway this agreement envisaged

13     cooperation between the OPMF and the competent authorities dealing with

14     the same things you were dealing in, that is to say the autopsy findings

15     for Batajnica 1, 2, Petrovo Selo, Perucac, and so on.  Now, as you just

16     told me that you know Dr. Karadzic, do you happen to know that

17     Dr. Radovan Karadzic ever, if you didn't, and I conclude that you didn't,

18     did he ever have any contacts with anybody from the OPMF?

19        A.   I really don't know.  I know this colleague of mine from

20     meetings.  I know my colleague Mr. Karadzic from professional meetings,

21     he's a forensic specialist.  Now, who he contacted with and whether he

22     contacted with them, I really don't know.  I have no idea.  I can't say.

23        Q.   Now, would you have had to have known had there ever been a

24     meeting along those lines you personally, would they have had to inform

25     you about it?

Page 3248

 1        A.   Well, let me tell you, let me put it like this.  I have to turn

 2     my mind back to that period when we began the repatriation process for

 3     the exhumed remains and autopsy findings from Batajnica 1 and 2 because

 4     we had the question of storing the bodies that were -- we conducted

 5     autopsies on.

 6             Repatriation was carried out, and on one occasion there was a

 7     lady doctor, she introduced herself as being a forensic expert.  Whether

 8     she was Kozlowski or some surname like that, and together with our

 9     assistants who were in this group she examined those bodies so as to see

10     that in the bags marked with number such and such, Batajnica such and

11     such, there was indeed a body, whether there was an autopsy protocol she

12     looked to see what we had established.  And then those bodies were placed

13     in a truck, taken across the border, and repatriated.

14             Now, what happened after that over there, I really don't know.

15     Whether somebody examined those bodies over there, a younger colleague of

16     mine told me that they were going to carry out another autopsy, whether

17     they did or didn't or what they did, I really don't know.  And I have no

18     written trace of anybody doing anything to the bodies after that.

19        Q.   Am I right in saying, after listening to your answer just now,

20     that you have absolutely no knowledge whatsoever about what the OPMF did

21     with the repatriated bodily remains of the former citizens who were

22     ethnic Albanians?

23        A.   Yes, that's right, I know nothing about that.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Now, when you said that you received a report of some

25     kind from a younger colleague of yours or was it a summary of the

Page 3249

 1     findings and examinations done by the OPMF?

 2        A.   The colleague just informed me orally because he had taken part

 3     in the repatriation process.  So actually, our commission that worked on

 4     Batajnica 1 and 2, I delegated him to keep in contact with this

 5     Dr. Kozlowski, the lady doctor, and he was accompanied by UNMIK and our

 6     organs that transported those bodies from the body to Kosovo.  And then

 7     he told me orally - and this was six or seven years ago - he said to me,

 8     We've handed everything over, and we have the list of the bodies that we

 9     handed over.  We couldn't hand over all the bodies at once nor were all

10     the bodies identified.

11             This went on successively over a period of two years.  Anyway, he

12     handed them over the list, and I think we also agreed with Judge Dilparic

13     that we supplied the autopsy protocols in electronic form so that they

14     could have both, the hard copy and the electronic information, and the

15     bodily remains, and confirmation of death because when a doctor

16     establishes death they write out a certificate, a death certificate.  And

17     he said that it appeared that they would be examining all of this.

18     Whether he heard about it or saw it, I really don't know.  That's all I

19     know about that.  This is the information he gave me orally.

20        Q.   And do you know where he got the information from?

21        A.   Well, probably in his contacts with those people over there.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Now I'll just briefly interrupt

24     the cross-examination, and I'd like to put something right because my

25     associates have drawn my attention to something that I misspoke, that I

Page 3250

 1     kept saying OPMF where it should be OMPF.  OMPF is the acronym for the

 2     organisations.

 3             And now I'll continue and I would like to ask the usher to pull

 4     up P4554 [as interpreted], page 2 --, or rather, page 27, paragraph 2 of

 5     the B/C/S.  [In English] Not page 27, second page, paragraph -- no, no,

 6     page 27, okay.  [Interpretation] Yes, page 27, para 2.  P4554 [as

 7     interpreted] and page 25 of the English.  May we have that pulled up.

 8     We're still waiting for the B/C/S.

 9             That's not it.  [In English] Page 27 in B/C/S.  25 in English --

10     this is not the right document definitely.  The ERN number is K053-5916.

11     Maybe it's better to say.  It is appendix C and D of the witness

12     statement of Jose-Pablo Baraybar, P454, that is the right document.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Exhibit P454?

14             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  That's correct.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  In this trial.

16             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  Yes.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

18             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  And page 27 in B/C/S and 25 in English.

19             So it is in B/C/S -- B/C/S page 2, definitely, not 27 -- no.  So

20     it is 27.  Now -- in e-court it's page 14 am I right and it should be

21     page 2 in B/C/S, same document.  This is page 14 here.  Can we --

22             MR. NEUNER:  Maybe my learned colleague has a hard copy and can

23     work on the ELMO with hard copy --

24             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  I have one, I have one.  It is -- it's not

25     correct definitely.

Page 3251

 1             [Interpretation] Can I please ask the usher to take the -- this

 2     document in hard copy in B/C/S and to show it to the witness and then to

 3     place it on the ELMO.  I, however, underlined, as I worked on the case,

 4     some elements, and I circled some elements; and now I would like the

 5     witness to read the elements that I circled out loud.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The report consists ..."

 7             Is that what you want me to read?

 8             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  Yes.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The report consists of four parts.

10     The first is an introduction to the analysis of human remains found in

11     mass graves and the need to 'formulate' the most probable cause of death,

12     Baraybar and Gasior 2006," that's the reference, "whenever possible.  The

13     second part explains the nature of forensic examinations while the third

14     deals with the results of those examinations comparing the findings with

15     the initial results provided by the Serbian organs.  Finally, the fourth

16     part contains the conclusions."

17             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Now my question in this regard --

19             MR. NEUNER:  I'm sorry, we are starting here in the middle of a

20     report.  I'm not intending to object at this point in time; but perhaps

21     my learned colleague can lay a certain foundation, such as whether this

22     witness has seen the report, is familiar with the report.  We are jumping

23     into the middle --

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Neuner, I believe we should allow

25     Mr. Djordjevic to proceed.  I anticipate he's going to ask for comments

Page 3252

 1     on this procedure as outlined there.  And so we'll see whether it gets

 2     into the difficulties you are anticipating or not.  I think it will stop

 3     short of those.

 4             Carry on.

 5             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  My colleague Neuner

 6     will hear my next question and will see that there was no reason for

 7     concern.

 8        Q.   Do you agree that forensic anthropologists, by analysing the

 9     skeletons in addition to the parameters that pertain to the identity of

10     the person in question - here I'm referring to the sex, age, and

11     height - can also determine circumstances surrounding the cause of death

12     by reconstructing the injury and trauma.  Is this their job?  Can they do

13     that?

14        A.   Whether they can -- as to whether they can determine the cause of

15     death, no, they cannot because they are not doctors.  Anthropologists are

16     not doctors.  They are trained to those -- to do those things that you

17     mentioned first, but it is only medical doctors.  Forensic pathologists

18     have the requisite expertise to be able to determine the cause of death,

19     or rather, to provide the court with facts, and on the basis of which

20     conclusions can be drawn as to the cause of death.

21             So an anthropologist does not have the requisite expertise to

22     talk about the cause of death without consulting a forensic medicine

23     specialist.  He can assist us by providing partial explanations that

24     pertain to the skeleton, but not about the cause of death or the sequence

25     of injuries or the time when injuries were inflicted.

Page 3253

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Now, Mr. Neuner.

 2             MR. NEUNER:  Yeah, I just have to say that what was asked here of

 3     this witness was an opinion, and we have today a fact witness with us who

 4     can certainly express or is invited here to express his knowledge about

 5     what he observed and what he saw.  But what Your Honours have just heard

 6     is an opinion about another witness and the work of another witness who

 7     has appeared here in this trial.  And we still don't have a basis for why

 8     that witness should know about this, and I believe that this is not

 9     appropriate at this point in time.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Neuner.  We have heard fully the

11     expertise and training of the witness, and at this moment the comment

12     does not appear to have moved outside of his precise area of expertise as

13     a forensic pathologist.

14             Thank you.  Mr. Djordjevic.

15             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   My next question is this:  What was the condition of the bodies

17     at Batajnica 1 and 2?  Is there a general description that could fit all

18     of them or should we go body by body?

19        A.   I will try to be as concise as possible.  The general

20     description, the general characteristic for Batajnica "jedan" and

21     Batajnica "dva," Batajnica 1 and Batajnica 2, is that those bodies were

22     in various stages of putrefaction, as we call it, in terms of soft and

23     hard tissue.  That would be the expert description.  And we forensic

24     medicine experts pay particular attention to this, to the changes in soft

25     and hard tissue.

Page 3254

 1             I'm sorry I can't really see you because of the ELMO, so I have

 2     to crane my neck.

 3             So we pay attention to those changes to the soft and hard tissue

 4     in order to be able to determine whether any changes observed on the body

 5     were caused ante or post mortem, whether the changes were caused by

 6     injury, whether the injury was inflicted by a specific implement, and at

 7     the same time the post mortem injuries help us determine indirectly the

 8     time of death.  That would be it in brief.

 9        Q.   What I can draw as a conclusion from this is that the cause and

10     manner of death, in all the cases where your commissions carried out the

11     autopsies, were not determined because, you state this as a reason,

12     bodies were in an advanced state of decomposition; am I right when I say

13     this?

14        A.   Yes, but I have to continue.  Since I'm here testifying as a

15     witness who has expertise in forensic medicine, I feel this need to

16     explain, to tell the Trial Chamber, that I have testified before as an

17     expert and as a fact witness.  I come from the

18     Forensic Medicine Institute in Belgrade which is one of the oldest such

19     institutes in south Europe, I'm not going to say the Balkans.  And our

20     forensic medicine practice is based on the best practice, German

21     practice, with some additions from the Anglo-Saxon forensic medicine

22     programme and elements from the Russian forensic medicine programme, so

23     that we bring together the three strongest approaches in this field.

24             And in the Forensic Medicine Institute in Belgrade, where I come

25     from, there are textbooks and books that were published as early as 1850,

Page 3255

 1     written by our experts.  And all the other institutes in the former

 2     Yugoslavia stem from our institute.  So that's it as far as our approach

 3     is concerned, our school of thought.

 4             Everything that I'm saying, my evidence, is an -- the evidence of

 5     a professional, and this is how it's done throughout the world.  Facts

 6     are one thing, they have to be processed in a certain way.  And then on

 7     the basis of this fact conclusions are drawn, that's another element, and

 8     there is a third element, the interpretation of the facts or, in other

 9     words, provision of an opinion for this Tribunal.  And for any court,

10     national court or this one here, what is important is the consistency

11     between the findings and conclusions on the cause of death.  That means

12     that if in the findings you do not have the elements that would enable

13     you to claim for an injury, for instance, that it was caused while the

14     was still alive, then in the conclusion you must not put that this injury

15     caused the death of the individual.  And that is why this concept is

16     used, the body is in an advanced stage of degradation due to putrefaction

17     and cause of death cannot be determined.

18             What does it mean for practical purposes for a court?  This means

19     that the cause of death is the injury for which you, as an expert, have

20     to prove that it was caused while the individual was still alive.  Now it

21     may sound slightly ludicrous to you now, but there are injuries that can

22     be inflicted post mortem or immediately before death, and they can look

23     the same.  Because there is no soft tissue, and you cannot determine

24     vital functions.  You cannot determine when the injury was inflicted.

25             And now, a through and through wound of the skull on a

Page 3256

 1     skeletonised body, one can assume that this injury caused the death of

 2     the individual.  One can assume that.  But as an expert, I have to answer

 3     to you or anyone else in court, what is evidence in proof of the fact

 4     that this caused the death?  I look at the autopsy report, I see that the

 5     body was skeletonised, and I say, Look I'm sorry, I don't have proof.  It

 6     is my opinion.

 7             Why is this important particularly when it comes to exhumed

 8     bodies?  Not only in Batajnica.  I testified as an expert for the Defence

 9     in Srebrenica cases and some other cases.  Why is that important then?

10     It is important because there are several different injuries that could

11     be inflicted in various time-periods before and after death.  And if you

12     find three or five through-and-through wounds to the body, you cannot

13     determine first of all the sequence of those injuries and you cannot

14     determine whether they were inflicted while the individual was still

15     alive because only the injuries that were caused while the individual was

16     still alive could be taken as possible causes of death.

17             So to make this very clear because I saw an image of a skull with

18     a through-and-through wound, gun-shot wound, I can say this as a forensic

19     medical doctor and an anthropologist cannot say that.  A person has a

20     through-and-through wound with the exit -- with the entry wound on the

21     right temporal bone and the exit wound on left temporal bone.

22             I examined one such person who was still alive.  It was a soldier

23     who had tried to commit suicide by firing a pistol into his head.  He

24     tried to sue for damages, and I had to examine him.  He had a bone

25     defect, you could determine that by looking at the X-rays.  So if you

Page 3257

 1     look at this person -- so he was alive when I examined him.  If he died

 2     and his body became skeletonised, what would the anthropologist conclude

 3     as to the cause of death?  He would conclude that this person died

 4     because of this through-and-through wound to the head.  That would not be

 5     true because he may have killed himself or died in some other way, and he

 6     lived for three years after this suicide attempt.  I examined him three

 7     years after that.

 8             So when I testify in court, I stick to my specialty which is

 9     forensic medicine.  I have to provide you with evidence, and I have to be

10     consistent.  Our conclusions, conclusions that cause of death could not

11     be determined, are absolutely consistent with the findings that we put

12     down.  And the forensic medicine doctory [as interpreted], not only in

13     Serbia but throughout the world, is based on this and all the rest is

14     just assumptions.

15        Q.   My next question for you, Doctor:  What was the state of the --

16     what could have been the state of the remains when they were brought to

17     Kosovo?  As you know, it was the period -- well, the repatriation lasted

18     from 2004 to 2006 at the time when the UNMIK commission carried out its

19     examinations as I indicated a little while ago.  So what could have been

20     the condition of the mortal remains.  When was it that you did it, in

21     2001?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   So it was three, four, five years later?

24        A.   Yes, yes.

25        Q.   Based on your experience?

Page 3258

 1        A.   Well, not only based on my experience but based on what I know.

 2     When we started the repatriation of the bodies that we had exhumed and

 3     autopsied, the decomposition on those bodies that we verified at that

 4     time were even more pronounced.  What do I want to say?  The moment you

 5     remove a body from the soil and expose it to air, in particular in

 6     summertime which was the case when we were doing the job, the

 7     putrefaction of soft tissues picks up pace so that most of the bodies

 8     that we had repatriated were almost fully skeletonised.  So the degree of

 9     skeletonisation was much higher than at the time when we autopsied the

10     bodies.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Professor, on the basis of your findings when you

12     deal with bodies that are as decomposed as the ones that we have here,

13     taking into account the remaining soft tissue on the skeletons, in some

14     cases you can determine the manner or the mechanism of injury and the

15     cause of death of the person being autopsied?

16        A.   Well, I didn't understand you all that well.  Are you referring

17     to the autopsy of people who died recently or the exhumed bodies?

18        Q.   The exhumed bodies.

19        A.   Well, when you're dealing with exhumed bodies, bodies that have

20     spent a longer or shorter period of time buried in the soil with

21     putrefaction present to a greater or smaller degree, the injuries that

22     can be identified in hard tissue, in the bones in other words, or on the

23     remnants of soft tissue can assist in divining the mechanism of injury.

24             But the thing that is very important for every injury, and let me

25     go back to what I said before, is to determine the time when it was

Page 3259

 1     inflicted, in other words, whether it was inflicted ante mortem or,

 2     indeed, whether it caused the death of the individual, or whether it was

 3     post mortem because there are post mortem injuries that might appear or

 4     indeed appear just like injuries that are inflicted while the individual

 5     was still alive, in particular when we're talking about injuries caused

 6     by blunt objects, blunt trauma.  The same goes for gun-shot wounds.

 7             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since I know that

 8     there will be no trial this afternoon in this courtroom, I don't know

 9     whether you would allow me to go on and try to finish cross-examining

10     this witness today.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  We can go on at the most till 2.00.  Our problem

12     then is that certain support staff are finished their time and must

13     leave.  So another ten minutes and that will leave five minutes for --

14             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I'll try.  I'll do my best.  If

15     not, we'll have to continue on Monday.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

17             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   My next question:  On the bodies exhumed at Batajnica, by that I

19     mean Batajnica 1 and 2, were there any obvious military items, clothes,

20     footwear?

21        A.   Well, I can't really remember that at Batajnica 1 there were not,

22     as far as I can recall; on Batajnica 2 there were some items camouflage

23     pants, for instance, or there was one case.  I remember that at one point

24     we found in the trousers wore by a male victim the string that is used to

25     clean the barrel of a rifle.  It has a piece of cloth on it and then you

Page 3260

 1     pull it through the rifle barrel to clean it.  That's what we found, and

 2     I have to note that there were mostly males in Batajnica 2.  I don't know

 3     the number of those persons.  We didn't do this kind of analysis, but we

 4     did describe and photograph everything that we found.

 5        Q.   Based on your experience and knowledge, in the bodies that have

 6     spent at least two months under water, can you determine the cause of

 7     death, for instance, drowning or anything else?

 8        A.   Well, now you've put me in a situation where I have to both

 9     answer you and not answer you.

10        Q.   Well, give it a try.

11        A.   Well, with your indulgence, Your Honours, I am a witness here.

12     But I can tell you as an expert that a body that has spent a certain

13     period of time under water, if the water is cold, that there was no

14     animal attacks, that there was no major decomposition of the body, just

15     of course there is a certain degree of putrefaction, even if the body's

16     in the water that would also depend on the health condition of the

17     person, the kind of injury.  In our climate there is putrefaction, and it

18     is very difficult to determine whether this person found in the water

19     drowned because bodies that are found in water are not necessarily

20     drownings, all of them, it doesn't necessarily mean that they drowned and

21     that this was the cause of death.  There can be various causes of death

22     and bodies are then found in the water.

23        Q.   Thank you.  The same situation, a body that has spent at least

24     two months in the water, can one make a distinction between a body and

25     putrefaction fluid?

Page 3261

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Between blood and

 2     putrefaction fluid.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Putrefaction fluid looks a lot like

 4     blood, and putrefaction fluid gathers in some areas of the body and it is

 5     a kind of dirty red colour, that's why it's called putrefaction fluid and

 6     not blood.  But if the bodies in the water, the red blood cells are --

 7     get washed away by the water, so you can no longer -- you can no longer

 8     determine the difference between the putrefaction fluid and blood because

 9     there is a smaller concentration of red blood cells in the putrefaction

10     fluid.  But if there was a substantial loss of blood, there will be less

11     red blood cells in blood itself, so it is difficult to determine which is

12     which.  But there are various elements that contribute to this that have

13     an effect.

14             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Again, the same situation, a body is at least two months in the

16     water and there are parts of clothing and there are stains on the

17     clothing.  Is it possible, by observing it, to determine whether this is

18     blood or, for instance, putrefaction fluid or some -- something else?

19        A.   Well, this is the situation where I had -- where I would have to

20     analyse quite specifically as an expert in order to be able to give you a

21     specific answer.  It would depend on a number of factors, first of all,

22     the kind of fabric, whether there was injury or not, injuries that might

23     have bled.  For instance, if you have an injury to the arm, there could

24     be some stains on the leg, but at any rate it is an expert analysis.  I'm

25     still here as a fact witness.

Page 3262

 1        Q.   Can you determine on human remains that have decomposed on a

 2     body, in other words, for instance the distance from which this person

 3     was killed if it was a gun-shot wound fired from a pistol or a rifle?

 4        A.   If there is decomposition and if no spectrographic analyses are

 5     carried out on the entry wound, which has been identified, and if there

 6     is no analysis done in this manner, it is very difficult to determine

 7     solely on the basis of the appearance of the injury and the trajectory of

 8     the projectile the distance from which it was fired.

 9             Decomposition destroys a lot of trace evidence, for instance,

10     gunpowder residue because gunpowder usually remains at the first barrier,

11     for instance, clothes.  But if the barrel was right next to the skin,

12     then it will remain on the skin and will penetrate into the bone.  But

13     with decomposition a lot of this trace evidence gets lost because

14     primarily the bodies are buried, there is humidity and/or even water and

15     the trace evidence gets washed away.

16        Q.   Thank you.  And is it possible solely on the basis of the

17     appearance of the entry and exit wound on tissue that has been decomposed

18     and on the wound channel or canal to determine the calibre of the round

19     that caused the injury and what are the criteria?

20        A.   There are injuries -- well, if there are gun-shot wounds, you can

21     have a gun-shot wound to the soft tissue and to the hard tissue.  Once

22     there is decomposition, there is no more soft tissue, we can only make

23     analyses of hard tissue, of bones if there is any injury.  There are

24     bones such as the skull, the pelvis, and then there are long bones, the

25     humerus, the femur, there are soft bones such as the facial bones and so

Page 3263

 1     on.  And there are specific and peculiar injuries to those bones that

 2     make it possible for us to claim, with a high degree of certainty, that

 3     they were caused by a projectile.

 4             So now let me go back to your question.  Only a round that hits

 5     the bone at a right angle can leave a relatively accurate calibre, the

 6     diameter.  But let me now tell you what this looks like, let me draw an

 7     analogy.  When a projectile leaves the muzzle of a fire-arm, because of

 8     the land and grooves it rotates along its longitudinal axis.  But the

 9     rear end of the projectile also exhibits some kind of motion.  When it

10     hits the first barrier, and that's skin - or it can be indeed anything

11     else - assuming that it's skin, it already changes its position because

12     of the rotation.  This is rotation at huge speed.  It's a small mass

13     travelling at a high speed.  It causes a hole, a defect in the form of a

14     hole, but you cannot get the exact calibre.  We can make an

15     approximation.  We can say this is maybe about 7 millimetres, it's not

16     12 millimetres, so we can't be accurate, completely accurate.

17             Once the projectile hits the barrier, once it moves through the

18     bone, it changes its -- it doesn't change its trajectory.  It moves in

19     the same direction, but it tumbles, it rotates the round, the bullet,

20     which is now inside the body.  And then when it leaves the body, when it

21     exits the body, perhaps only the bullet will leave and the casing may

22     remain in the body.  And this results in the exit wound being much larger

23     than the entry wound on the bone, but this is provided that the bullet

24     hit the bone at the right angle.  It is the only situation in which we

25     can determine the approximate calibre.

Page 3264

 1             It's not the kind of calibre that would be relevant for the

 2     Court -- you cannot really determine whether the calibre was 7.65 and not

 3     7.62.  We can only say in terms of our testimony before the court that

 4     this was a bullet fired from a weapon with a calibre of less than

 5     10 millimetres.  That would be it.

 6        Q.   Unfortunately I have many questions for you, so I won't be able

 7     to complete it now.  We'll have to continue on Monday.  The reason is, of

 8     course, your grey hair and your huge experience, but unfortunately I'm

 9     forced to do that in order to be my job properly.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  We appreciate the situation, Mr. Djordjevic.  I'm

11     afraid, Professor, we must ask if you can return on Monday.  I think we

12     can expect, though, that your continued cross-examination --

13             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  At least half-hour.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  -- half an hour.  And that being so, your

15     re-examination will then follow, Mr. Neuner, on Monday.  Unfortunately we

16     have run out of time.  The court officer will give you some assistance as

17     to your return on Monday, times and so forth, and in the meantime we must

18     adjourn now, and we look forward to the completion of your evidence on

19     Monday.

20                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.01 p.m.,

21                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 6th day of

22                           April, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.