1 Thursday, 23 April 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. May I remind you, Mr. Jemini, that
7 the affirmation you made at the beginning of your evidence to tell the
8 truth still applies.
9 Mr. Djurdjic.
10 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
11 WITNESS: AGIM JEMINI [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Djurdjic: [Continued]
14 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Jemini, we ended yesterday with the question
15 about when you left your family farm. Before we go back to the question
16 that I asked, I would just like to ask you this. In paragraph 28 of your
17 statement of the 17th of July, you say that you did not find the bodies
18 of your family members because gypsies and policemen went down the main
19 road and carried off the bodies, including the bodies of your parents and
20 your relatives. Is it correct what you say in your statement?
21 A. I said in my statement that when I left on the 27th in the
22 morning we did not have the opportunity to go and look at the victims.
23 So we went to Xerxe. The bodies were taken away after that time.
24 Q. Well, that's what I said, yes, that the gypsies and policemen
25 went down the main road and carried off the bodies and that you were not
1 able to find the bodies of your parents and your relatives because they
2 were not there. But do you recall that on the 21st of October, 1999
3 gave a statement to a German forensic team, to the inspectors who were on
4 that team?
5 A. During the whole time that the German forensic team was in the
6 village, I was with them. We cooperated with them. As I said in the
7 statement. I can't remember exactly now about this thing that you're
8 asking me, but if you are more concrete in your question I can answer.
9 Q. My question was very specific. Do you remember -- well, if not
10 the date but at least of the fact that you gave a statement to a German
11 forensic team?
12 A. I can't remember for the moment. I remember that I was with them
13 all the time. We spoke with them and gave them statements, several
14 statements, about the various people and victims; but if you have a
15 concrete question about each and every statement that we gave them, I can
17 Q. Mr. Jemini, I'm asking you very specifically about your parents.
18 Do you remember that you gave a statement to a German forensic team? Is
19 my question clear to you?
20 A. I don't remember.
21 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask for the
22 Defence Exhibit D002-5640 to be called up, please.
23 Your Honours, this is a report by the German forensic team dated
24 21 October, 1999
25 interrogation of Agimi Jemin [as interpreted] born on the 25th November
1 1960 in Prizren. Inspector Ulrich, Senior Inspector Remmerden, and Chief
2 Inspector Steinmann are signed on the report.
3 Q. Do you recall now this document? Did I remind you perhaps of
4 this questioning?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Further along in this report it says he was questioned for the
7 purpose of gathering more information about the crime scene. He still
8 remembered the questioning of his brother Jemini Remizija by the group of
9 inspectors on the 28th July.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please slow down and repeat the
11 last sentence.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic, your sentence before last was missed
13 by the interpreters. You are asked to repeated it a little more slowly.
14 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. The witness also explained that in the refugee camp in Tirana in
16 the spring of that year the investigator of the ICTY John Zdrilic had
17 already questioned him in detail about this murder, therefore we would
18 refrain from further questioning.
19 Have I jogged your memory a little?
20 A. No, no, not yet.
21 Q. No, all right.
22 Contrary to the existing statement of the witness, this witness
23 claimed that he had found the bodies of the witness Sadri Jemini,
24 Senavere Jemini, Sahip Jemini, whose bodies had been incinerated in the
25 fire next to the broken-in safe in the bedroom of his parents. Do you
1 remember now?
2 A. I mentioned in my previous statements that the bodies of the
3 members of my family were not found. They were taken away to Rahovec.
4 We found them in the cemetery in Rahovec, and later on reburied them in
5 the village. I mentioned also that we buried 78 victims from the
6 village, but my family were not among those that we buried at the time.
7 Q. Mr. Jemini, please listen to me carefully and listen carefully to
8 what I'm reading and then answer the questions, rather than telling me
9 things that I didn't ask about. We have already wasted the whole day
10 yesterday. Please let me not repeat. I've already read this passage.
11 An inspector of the German forensic team on the 21st October, 1999
12 that these three bodies had burned in the fire in the bedroom of your
13 parents next to the safe that was broken into. Is that correct or not?
14 Please tell me.
15 A. Money had been taken by the Serb police from the safe. The safe
16 was in the bedroom. The inspector went there and saw the safe where the
17 police had taken the money from.
18 Q. Mr. Jemini, you are straining my patience. This is my
19 cross-examination. Please answer my questions very directly. I've just
20 read to you a passage from the report. It says you took the inspectors
21 to the safe in the bedroom and said that the bodies of these three
22 persons had been found there. Is that correct or not? Answer me with a
23 yes or no.
24 JUDGE PARKER: The answer must be no, Mr. Djurdjic, because that
25 is not what this handwritten report suggests. You have put in additional
1 factors that are not in it.
2 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm reading what's
3 written. I've read it three times. Whose bodies had burned in the
4 fire --
5 JUDGE PARKER: You've just put a question to the witness that
6 says that the inspector was taken to the bedroom by the witness, and that
7 is not what is in the report. But the point you're getting at I think is
9 Mr. Jemini, did you at any time find the bodies of Sadri Jemini
10 and the other two members of the Jemini family that have been mentioned
11 by Mr. Djurdjic?
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, but those bodies were found after we returned
13 to Kosova, and they were found in Rahovec. And the Tribunal inspectors
14 exhumed them, conducted the autopsy, and then we reburied them. That's
15 what happened, we reburied them in our village. I think that's very
16 clear. And this can also be confirmed by the inspectors of the Tribunal
17 who came there and took notes of everything.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Did the German police inspectors come after you
19 had returned to the village?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. They couldn't be
21 there during the offensives and the war. They came there in October.
22 JUDGE PARKER: So it is your recollection that the bodies of
23 these three victims that are named in this German report were found not
24 in the house by a safe in a bedroom, but were found buried at a later
25 date in another place; is that correct?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Did you or do you have a recollection of saying to
3 the German investigators that these three bodies had been found by you in
4 the burnt house?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic, does that help you along the road?
7 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. It helped
8 a lot. Perhaps I speeded up the questions that time, but on page 2 of
9 this report it is noted that the witness had taken the police
10 inspectors - that's the third paragraph of the second page in Serbian,
11 and in English it's fourth paragraph - the house in which the three
12 burnt. I'll read this sentence.
13 "Behind the bathroom is the bedroom where, according to the
14 witness's statement, next to a safe box three bodies had been found."
15 And it's signed Chief Criminal Inspector Steiner [as
17 JUDGE PARKER: Well, you now know what the -- Mr. Jemini says
18 about that, that he did not find bodies in the house. Now, if you want
19 to ask more about that you can.
20 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. No, I don't want to
21 ask any more. I would just like to tender the document.
22 JUDGE PARKER: I am in a position as pointed out to me,
23 Mr. Djurdjic, that this statement is not a statement of this witness,
24 it's a handwritten report of the German inspector. You want the document
1 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have what I
2 received from the OTP. It says that the witness is Agim Jemini, born on
3 the 25th of November, 1960, in Prizren. And all the rest are quotations
4 from the words of the witness, signed chief inspector Steiner, and
5 therefore I'm tendering this document into evidence.
6 JUDGE PARKER: The document will be received as a record relevant
7 to our inquiry, but don't understand from that, that I at least
8 understand this document to be quoting entirely the words of this present
9 witness. It's a report by the superintendent Steinmann, which brings
10 together his work relating to this. Some of it may be based upon what
11 this witness has said, but clearly much of it is not.
12 It will be received.
13 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D00078, Your Honours.
14 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Q. Mr. Jemini, in paragraph 27 of your statement you say:
16 "Most of the graves I photographed and the film is in a safe
17 place in Celine. I intend to make it available to the ICTY in
18 The Hague
19 Thus, in July 1999 you claimed that you photographed the graves.
20 Is this part of the statement correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you. You have told us here something about Hazli making
23 the photographs - let me not repeat what you said about the
24 photographs - but you said that the photographs do not show the graves,
25 they show entirely different.
1 A. No. The photographs show the places where the victims were
2 found, the victims of the massacres immediately after their execution by
3 the Serb forces. And each grave is very close to the place where the
4 execution took place. They are very shallow graves, I think I told you.
5 So in the beginning we filmed -- not filmed, but we photographed the
6 execution site, and then we buried the bodies.
7 Q. Mr. Jemini, I've read to you paragraph 27.
8 MR. DJURDJIC: It's the last-but-one paragraph in the witness's
9 statement, Your Honours.
10 Q. Is this part of the statement inaccurate?
11 A. The statement is correct. We took pictures and then we buried
12 the bodies, and the ICTY has the pictures. The bodies were buried, and
13 the graves were not filmed.
14 Q. That's why I'm reading the statement to you. You only spoke
15 about the graves that were photographed on the 17th of July, 1999
16 now you told us at this trial something entirely different, and you gave
17 us photographs that don't show a single grave. Tell us about these
18 graves. Let us not waste time. What about these graves that you
19 mentioned, is this accurate or not?
20 A. I think you're not accurate in what you're asking because the
21 victims were buried. Each and every one of them that we found we took
22 pictures of the massacre, and then we buried them. I think there were
23 some photographs of the graves as well, but if they are missing, what can
24 I do?
25 Q. Mr. Jemini, I'm not putting a question to you. I read a
1 paragraph from your own statement. It's not a question. I've just read
2 something to you, and I'm asking you to tell me whether it's accurate or
3 not. You are an educated man, an intellectual, you understand my
4 question perfectly well.
5 A. I understand your question; however, I think you should
6 understand what the statement says. The statement says that the
7 execution site and the grave-site were photographed.
8 Q. That's not in the statement. I've read it. But let us move on,
9 and the Court will decide.
10 Mr. Jemini, in your statement of the 17th July 1999, there's not
11 a word about a mosque; is that correct?
12 A. I was asked questions about the mosque, and I answered those
13 questions. I don't know how much those answers were reflected in the
15 Q. Thank you. I didn't find in your statement that you moved tiles
16 from the roof while you were in the loft.
17 A. I will repeat it again, that maybe in this statement it is not
18 there; however, in my testimony in the previous trials I did mention that
19 we shifted the tiles a little bit in order to be able to see outside.
20 Q. Thank you. I'd like to ask you about paragraph 28. Did you see
21 gypsies and policemen gathering bodies on the main road?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did they photograph the bodies before picking them up and putting
24 them on the lorry, the policemen, you know. You know how an on-site
25 investigation is performed. There is the investigation of the crime
1 scene, photographing, collection of clues, et cetera.
2 A. I know what is normally done in such situations, but these were
3 extraordinary times. And as the events unfolded, I don't think they were
4 thinking about photographing, or I don't think that they had any
5 investigator with them. They just loaded the bodies on the tractor, just
6 like they would load some pieces of wood or rocks. That's what they did.
7 Q. Thank you. And these people you call gypsies, were they perhaps
8 members of the civilian defence?
9 A. No. These people had been taken from various places, from
10 Prizren, Rahovec, and other townships. And they did not have any special
11 responsibilities except this one.
12 Q. Thank you. Do you know what the job of the civilian protection
13 is during the war?
14 A. We did not organise the war to know the duties. I'm telling you
15 what we did on the ground.
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jemini. I have no further questions.
17 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have
18 no more strength to do this.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Djurdjic.
20 Mr. Behar, do you re-examine?
21 MR. BEHAR: No, Your Honours, I have nothing further.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 Questioned by the Court:
24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Jemini, perhaps if Exhibit D77 could be put up
25 on the screen, there's something that you could assist me with.
1 You gave us the name of the person who is in the foreground in
2 this photograph. Could you remind me of that name?
3 A. Xhevdet Ramadani.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Was he a member of your group throughout this
5 period that you were essentially hiding out and visiting your village in
6 the evenings?
7 A. Yes.
8 JUDGE PARKER: In the foreground leaning against a tree appears
9 to be a military automatic weapon. Is that something that was your
10 possession, or did it belong to another member of the group?
11 A. The weapon was there with a group because different weapons were
12 found during that time in the positions of the police in the village.
13 While touring the village in the evening, we found many weapons and
14 ammunition in different positions. This weapon was taken once it was
15 found in one of the positions in the village.
16 JUDGE PARKER: And is it something that you took or another
17 member of the group?
18 A. Someone from the group took it. We did not use that weapon.
19 Some of the members of the group took it, but we didn't use it. We just
20 were curious when we found it.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Did you keep it with you for the balance of the
22 period that you were hiding out?
23 A. No. This weapon was perhaps found on that day, when we were
24 photographed on this photograph, but from the photograph you can see
25 where we are, on what kind of location, that we are taking shelter there,
1 and we are not positioned to fight.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Did you find other weapons during the time you
3 were hiding out?
4 A. As I said, there were weapons in the positions where the military
5 positions were. They did leave traces, such as weapons and ammunition,
6 in their positions that they had in the village. We did take these
7 weapons but not to use them.
8 JUDGE PARKER: What did you do with the weapons?
9 A. We did come across different weapons in different positions, in
10 areas where the people had committed massacres, but we didn't take all of
11 them. We didn't take these weapons with us and carry them with us.
12 JUDGE PARKER: You've indicated you took this weapon with you and
13 some others, if I understand you correctly. What did you do with those
15 A. No, we didn't take other weapons, and this weapon on the
16 photograph was probably in the territory where we were.
17 JUDGE PARKER: And what did you do with this weapon?
18 A. Nothing. We found this weapon right there, and it probably
19 remained right there.
20 JUDGE PARKER: It wasn't taken from this location by any member
21 of your group?
22 A. To tell you the truth, Your Honour, we were worried. We had many
23 things on our mind. We felt insecure. We were upset because of the
24 massacres that were committed at that time. That's why I didn't pay
25 attention whether it was taken or left there. But probably it did remain
1 there or was thrown somewhere where it could no longer be used. But we
2 didn't have this weapon with us on other days.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic, firstly I don't know whether there
4 is anything arising from the Chamber's questioning that you wish to
5 pursue further.
6 Thank you.
7 Mr. Behar.
8 MR. BEHAR: No. Thank you, Your Honours.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Jemini, you'll be pleased to know that that
11 concludes the questioning for you. The Chamber would thank you for your
12 attendance again in The Hague
13 to give. We appreciate the difficulty that you experience in having to
14 recall some of these events, and we express our gratitude for you in what
15 you've been prepared to do. You may now of course return to your normal
16 activities, and the court officer will show you out.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 [The witness withdrew]
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Neuner, you seem to have moved to the front
22 MR. NEUNER: Good morning, Your Honours. The next witness is
23 Hazbi Loku.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
25 [The witness entered court]
1 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, sir.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the
4 card that is given to you now.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
6 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 WITNESS: HAZBI LOKU
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Please sit down.
10 Mr. Neuner has some questions for you.
11 Examination by Mr. Neuner:
12 Q. Good morning.
13 A. Good morning.
14 Q. Your name is Hazbi Loku, and you were born on the 25th of March,
16 A. Yes, correct.
17 Q. And you're a Kosovo Albanian from Kotlina in Kacanik
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Is it correct that you gave a statement on the 4th of June, 1999?
21 A. Yes, that's correct.
22 Q. And you also testified on the 11th and 12th September, 2006, in
23 the Milutinovic et al case?
24 A. Yes, correct.
25 Q. And before you came here today, you had an opportunity to review
1 both the statement and the testimony?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And together do the statement and the transcript of testimony
4 truly and accurately reflect what you would say if you gave your
5 testimony orally before this Court today?
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, I'm referring to 65 ter number, that's
8 the statement, 2296, which I would seek to tender.
9 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
10 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00652, Your Honours.
11 MR. NEUNER: And I'm also referring to the transcript of
12 testimony in the Milutinovic case which has the 65 ter number 5085.
13 JUDGE PARKER: That too will be received.
14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00653, Your Honours.
15 MR. NEUNER: I'm reading out the summary of this witness's
17 On the 8th of March, 1999, the village of Ivaja
18 there was a fight between Serb forces and the villagers. A day later
19 Kotlina, the witness's village, was shelled. The witness observed VJ and
20 police forces entering Kotlina. He saw tanks of a military green colour
21 and dark blue armoured personnel carriers. Most houses in the
22 neighbourhood called Dreshec were burned down. In the other part of
23 Kotlina, shops were looted, houses damaged. Two men were found shot
25 On the 24th of March, 1999, Kotlina was again shelled from
1 different directions. From his hiding point the witness observed a tank
2 firing and a large number of Serb soldiers and policemen capturing and
3 mistreating unarmed male villagers. The captured men were beaten with
4 rifle-butts and kicked. Elderly male villagers were being separated from
5 the women and children, and about 20 men had to lay on the ground. Women
6 and children were loaded onto military lorries and driven in the
7 direction of Kacanik. Some of them had to walk behind the lorries. The
8 elderly men were also taken in the same direction by the Yugoslav Army
9 and policemen.
10 The captured men were taken to a new location where holes were.
11 At the edge of these holes they were beaten. The witness heard the men
12 screaming. All men were thrown into the hole. Later an explosion
13 occurred at this area, and the witness saw dust and a cloud of smoke
14 rising. Other Serb troops started burning the houses in Kotlina. The
15 witness and other villagers found the bodies of Vesel Vlashi and
16 Idriz Kuqi. Zymer Loku died from his wounds later that night. The
17 witness went in a group to Macedonia
18 End of the summary.
19 Q. I have a few questions for you, Mr. Loku.
20 MR. NEUNER: Could I have the 65 ter number 615.08 on the screen,
22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
23 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I have just one question for my
24 learned friend Mr. Neuner. I received the summary of the statement from
25 the Prosecution. And in the first sentence in my summary it says that
1 there was a conflict between the forces, between the Serb forces of the
2 Serb army, and the KLA. And I hear in the interpretation here that there
3 was a conflict between the Serb forces and the villagers. That's what I
4 heard in the interpretation here. That's the 8th of March. That's the
5 only thing that I'm interested in. Is there a problem with the
6 interpretation, or did Mr. Neuner now say the villagers and not the KLA?
7 JUDGE PARKER: It appears Mr. Djurdjic understood from his copy
8 of the summary that there was mention of a conflict between Serb forces
9 and the KLA.
10 MR. NEUNER: This is certain an issue which my learned colleague
11 is invited to address on cross-examination with any questions he wishes
13 JUDGE PARKER: Did you use the word "KLA," or did you use the
14 word "villagers"?
15 MR. NEUNER: I personally used the word "villagers."
16 JUDGE PARKER: Can you explain why a summary would be given to
17 Mr. Djurdjic that mentioned KLA?
18 MR. NEUNER: I can't explain this at this point in time,
19 Your Honours. I can simply say I have not asked this witness during
20 proofing about the fact that, yeah, "KLA" was used in the summary, and I
21 thought therefore because I am summarising his evidence, since I have not
22 asked him in proofing about this particular point, that I should not read
23 it to him that it was the KLA. I thought out of fairness to the witness
24 I say "villagers" here at this point in time. But as I mentioned, my
25 learned colleague is invited to address that issue, and I can even do it
1 now if Your Honours wish me to.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Neuner, the position is clear. Mr. Djurdjic
3 knows it. Either if you choose to, you may explore the question. I
4 suspect certainly Mr. Djurdjic will explore it.
5 MR. NEUNER:
6 Q. Mr. Loku, could I just because the question was raised right now,
7 in terms of the conflict in Ivaja on the 8th of March, 1999, have you
8 observed that elements of the KLA were involved in the fightings around
10 A. On the 8th of March, I was in Kotline with the rest of the
11 population, but we were aware that around Ivaja there were KLA soldiers,
12 and we were aware that the Serb forces were fighting them. But they were
13 not in the village of Ivaja
14 Personally I didn't see them.
15 Q. You just said you didn't see the KLA soldiers. What is the basis
16 of your awareness about the KLA presence around Ivaja, as you just
18 A. We are talking about the 8th of March. We heard that on the
19 evening of 8th of March, Reshat [as interpreted] Rexha came to Kotline,
20 and he told us that there was shelling going on in his village, i.e.,
21 Ivaja, for the whole day and that the KLA forces in the outskirts of the
22 village were fighting the Serb forces.
23 Q. Did Mr. Reshat Rexha mention a number of KLA forces?
24 A. No. He had fled his village, and he came to take shelter in our
25 village. He was a young man.
1 Q. And had he seen these alleged KLA forces during his flight?
2 A. As he was saying, he did see that with his own eyes. He managed
3 to flee the village during the day and to reach our village, to visit his
5 MR. NEUNER: I hope, Your Honours, I have clarified and also for
6 the Defence this point now. Therefore, I would go to 65 ter
7 number 61508, please.
8 Q. Witness, you see in front of you a map.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And if you, first of all, since we discussed Ivaja, could
11 encircle Ivaja on this map and mark a 1 next to it, please.
12 A. Ivaja is this part here. Shall I mark it -- yeah, okay.
13 Q. The 1 is not very legible. Could you maybe on top of this circle
14 mark another 1, please.
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. Thank you. And then your own village, Kotlina, if you could
17 circle this and mark a 2, please.
18 A. Kotlina is to the south of Ivaja.
19 Q. Thank you. You mentioned in your statement and testimony that
20 artillery was fired on the 9th of March on Kotlina. Could you just by
21 encircling the locations indicate from where the artillery attacks were
22 coming. You just need to --
23 A. The shelling on the 9th of March on Kotline came from these
24 directions. The Serb police forces were positioned here at Gllobocica,
25 then in Gorance or -- they were also positioned on the asphalt road
1 Kacanik-Hani i Elezit main road at the location called Kasha. And
2 shelling was also coming from a position somewhere up -- a little upper
3 from Kacanik; I don't know exactly where. I did circle the locations
4 from where these artillery was active on Kotline.
5 Q. Could you mark next to each circle a number 3, please.
6 A. Just number 3, right?
7 Q. Yes, next to each circle, please.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. Thank you. Then you mentioned that on that occasion also
10 infantry was moving towards Kotlina. Could you by drawing with an arrow
11 indicate from where the infantry troops were coming on the 9th of March.
12 A. The infantry troops escorted by the tanks came from the direction
13 of Gllobocica, from the direction of Shtraza, from the direction of
14 Ivaja, from these three directions they came to Kotline, the Serb
15 paramilitary forces.
16 MR. NEUNER: For the record the witness has marked three arrows
17 indicating the direction of the infantry movement.
18 Q. Then you mention that on that occasion, 9th of March, Dreshec,
19 the neighbourhood of Kotlina, was affected. Could you by drawing a small
20 circle with a 4 indicate where Dreshec is.
21 A. The neighbourhood of Dreshec is west to the centre of Kotline
22 village. It is in the direction of Gllobocica village, about 1 or
23 2 kilometres far. It should be somewhere here. The road coming from the
24 direction of Gllobocica to our village passes by this neighbourhood.
25 Q. Thank you. Then on the 24th of March you testified there was
1 another attack. Could you by looking on this map just indicate where
2 were the lines of attack. Don't mark it, just indicate it by telling us
3 which lines of attacks occurred on the 24th of March.
4 A. On the 24th of March the shelling continued from the previous
5 positions that I mentioned, where they were positioned, and the infantry
6 came from the same directions because there were no other directions to
7 come from.
8 Q. So to clarify, the shelling was coming also from the four points
9 which you have encircled here with number 3?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And the infantry attack also from the three arrows which you have
12 indicated here?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, could I seek to tender that map,
16 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00654, Your Honours.
18 MR. NEUNER:
19 Q. Just before the map disappears, you stated in your testimony that
20 you were leaving towards Macedonia
21 March. Could you indicate where you crossed the border?
22 A. Can I mark it?
23 Q. Yes, please.
24 A. On the night of the 24th of March, a group of us who survived the
25 massacres and killings --
1 Q. You just need to tell me where you crossed the border. That's
2 all I'm asking you for.
3 A. We crossed the border at Gorance village. I marked the road with
4 this arrow. From there we went to Jadrice village which is in Macedonia
5 We walked throughout the night to get to Jadrice in Macedonia.
6 Q. And for the record you have drawn a line with an arrow at its end
7 indicating where you were ending up in Macedonia.
8 MR. NEUNER: Could I seek to tender this map into evidence,
9 Your Honours.
10 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
11 MR. NEUNER:
12 Q. Can you please tell me how large your group was when you were
13 crossing the border.
14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00655, Your Honours.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were more than 40 and less than
16 50 I would say.
17 MR. NEUNER:
18 Q. I want now to show you another exhibit; it's 5254.
19 And my first question when it will come up in a second is what
20 location, if any, is depicted? It will come up in a second. Just wait,
21 this is -- we just need one screen.
22 MR. NEUNER: If you could enlarge it, please.
23 Q. What location is depicted here?
24 A. The picture shows the Kotline village in the municipality of
25 Kacanik. This is the centre of the village. The outer neighbourhoods
1 are not included in here.
2 Q. In your testimony and statement you mention that on the 24th of
3 March when Serb forces came to your village you were hiding on a certain
4 location. Could you encircle, if it is shown on this photo, where you
5 were hiding. And mark a 1 next to the circle.
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. Thank you. You then mention in your statement that there was a
8 group of women, children, and elderly on a meadow. Could you encircle
9 where you saw that group of women, children, and elderly and a few men.
10 Mark a 2 inside the circle if you can.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And then you also mentioned a group of about 20 men which were,
13 so to speak, captured somewhere else. Could you mark where that group
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. And if you could next to that circle mark a 3, please.
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. What I would like to show from you is on the position you mark as
19 number 1, in terms of elevation is that position on the same elevation as
20 number 2 and 3? Is it higher or lower?
21 A. The location at number 1 is at the same elevation as number 3,
22 while number 2, the fields and the houses are lower.
23 Q. Thank you. Then you mention in your testimony that the group you
24 marked here with number 3 is being led to wells or holes. Could you
25 encircle and mark with number 4 where the holes are if they are depicted
1 on this picture.
2 A. [Marks]
3 MR. NEUNER: Could I seek to tender that exhibit, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, it will be received.
5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00656, Your Honours.
6 MR. NEUNER: I want to revert to the exhibit that's the statement
7 which I just tendered, it's Exhibit 652, and want to have the last page
8 of that exhibit, it's page 9.
9 Q. Who produced this drawing?
10 A. I produced it.
11 Q. And what does this drawing reflect?
12 A. The drawing depicts the village of Kotline; the road; the houses;
13 the roads that come from the direction of Ivaja-Shtraza-Gllobocica; the
14 main buildings; the mosque; the clinic; the place where I was staying,
15 where I have marked as "kalaja," which means the castle, there are the
16 ruins of a castle there; the place where the people were executed and
17 massacred, my co-villagers and members of my family --
18 Q. Can I just stop you here. Is it fair to say that this
19 handwritten drawing reflects the same excerpt which we have seen a moment
20 ago in form of a photo?
21 A. Yes, yes. I tried to depict the same.
22 Q. I have just one question.
23 MR. NEUNER: If we could zoom in a little bit on the upper
24 left-hand side of that picture -- of the drawing. Even a little bit
1 Q. We see here on the upper left-hand side the word above circle
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Could you spell for the record "gropa."
5 A. The word "gropa" means wells or holes, a person from the village
6 who wanted to get water for his family --
7 Q. Sorry, I was just asking you to spell the word "gropa" for the
9 A. G-r-o-p-a, "gropa."
10 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
11 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, previously my
12 learned friend said - at least I heard in interpretation - "group." And
13 now the witness is telling us that "gropa" means well. Therefore, the
14 words written here in Albanian seems to mean a well. Then the witness
15 was interrupted at that point in order to spell.
16 JUDGE PARKER: We won't interfere, Mr. Neuner, in your
17 examination. It will be up to you whether you want to explore that
18 matter; if you don't, Mr. Djurdjic will.
19 MR. NEUNER: Okay.
20 Q. I've only one question -- two questions. Is "gropa" singular or
21 plural in the Albanian language?
22 A. The word "gropa" in Albanian is in plural.
23 Q. How would you spell for the record a -- the word -- the singular
24 word for "hole"?
25 A. In singular I would say, g-r-o-p-e, "grope."
1 Q. Thank you. I have --
2 MR. NEUNER: This exhibit could be removed, please. I would like
3 to show the witness 65 ter number 48, please. And we just need one
5 Q. There will be three pictures coming up now. And the first
6 question I will always ask you is who gave these pictures to the ICTY?
7 If you could -- I think it needs to be moved, yeah. If you could answer
8 that question first, please.
9 A. I gave this photograph to the Tribunal myself.
10 Q. When was this picture taken?
11 A. This picture was taken after we returned from Macedonia. This is
12 the picture of the school of the village where I used to work. You can
13 see here that the school had been burnt.
14 Q. Could you give me year and approximate month in which you
15 returned from Macedonia to take this picture?
16 A. This picture was taken around August or September 1999.
17 MR. NEUNER: Can I seek to tender that picture, Your Honours?
18 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00657, Your Honours.
20 MR. NEUNER:
21 Q. When you left the village Kotlina to move to Macedonia, in what
22 condition was the school?
23 A. Up until the 23rd of March, the school was a building where
24 pupils went and studied; and then on the 24th of March it was burnt down,
25 together with other houses in the village.
1 Q. Did you see it being burnt, or was the school intact when you
2 left the village?
3 A. I did see it with my own eyes during the whole day.
4 Q. As being intact or ...
5 A. In the morning it was intact. When the Serb forces came, in the
6 afternoon, the school was torched.
7 Q. The next picture is 0050.
8 [Prosecution counsel confer]
9 MR. NEUNER: Sorry, I need to tender the previous -- I withdraw
11 Q. Who gave this picture to the ICTY?
12 A. I did.
13 Q. When was this picture taken?
14 A. The picture was taken in the beginning of September 1999.
15 Q. I'm now referring to, on the right-hand side, the house without
16 roof. What can you tell us about this?
17 A. On the right you can see that there are several houses that had
18 been burnt on the 24th of March. There are many burnt houses here if you
19 look at the picture carefully.
20 Q. Then there is one house which is in the middle of this picture
21 with a light roof, wooden roof. What can you tell us about this house?
22 A. This is Nuredin Kuqi's house. The walls were not burnt down.
23 Then there was a humanitarian organisation that came and helped our
24 village, and they helped us build the roof.
25 Q. And when was the roof burned on that house?
1 A. This house was burnt on the same day, on the 24th of March.
2 MR. NEUNER: I seek to tender that picture, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00658, Your Honours.
5 MR. NEUNER:
6 Q. Then I have 65 ter number 380. This is a collection of pictures,
7 and I'm just asking you who gave these pictures to us.
8 A. I brought these photographs as a testimony to the most cruel
9 killings that were committed by the Serb forces and Yugoslav forces in my
11 Q. I'm just asking you to provide us the names of the person, and I
12 will go through these pictures one by one. Upper row to the left, just
13 tell us who the persons depicted -- depicted there is.
14 A. Starting from the right to the left, the first one is Adnan
15 Refik Loku.
16 Q. Upper row to the middle?
17 A. The person in the middle is Naser Rexhep Loku, the third one is
18 Mina Baki Kuqi.
19 Q. If you could just answer the questions I'm putting to you. I'm
20 asking for specific persons. The middle row, the man in the middle, who
21 is this?
22 A. In the first row --
23 Q. No, in the middle row, the man in the middle.
24 A. Naser Rexhep Loku.
25 Q. Then in the lower row, the man to the left?
1 A. These two are two brothers, Ibush Rexhep Loku and Naser
2 Rexhep Loku, two brothers.
3 Q. Sorry, I just asked you for one person's identity, and you're
4 giving me two. In the lower row on the left-hand side, what is the name
5 of this person in the dark black jacket with a beard? What's the name of
7 A. Yes, with a moustache, this is Sali Vlashi.
8 Q. In the lower row in the middle, who is this person?
9 A. The person in the middle is -- as I said, they are two brothers.
10 One is Ibush, the other is Naser. Maybe I confused their names, but I
11 know that one of the brothers is called Naser and the other Ibush.
12 Q. Okay.
13 MR. NEUNER: Then if we could go to the next page, please.
14 Q. Upper left-hand side, who is this?
15 A. Upper left-hand side, this person is Danush Kuqi. He was a
16 student in the secondary school.
17 Q. In the upper right-hand side, who is this person?
18 A. This is Sherif Kuqi.
19 Q. In the lower left-hand side, who is this?
20 A. Xhemajl Kuqi.
21 Q. The lower right-hand side?
22 A. Vesel Vlashi.
23 MR. NEUNER: If we could go to the next page, please.
24 Q. Who is the person on the upper left-hand side?
25 A. The person on the upper left-hand side is Ferat Kuqi's son.
1 MR. NEUNER: If we could go to the next page, please.
2 Q. The person there on the left-hand side?
3 A. This person is Garip Loku.
4 Q. And the person on the lower left-hand-hand -- lower right-hand
6 A. This person is his son, Sabit Loku.
7 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, the persons which have just been
8 identified by this witness are listed in Schedule K of the indictment,
9 and with this examination I seek to tender this exhibit into evidence.
10 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
11 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00659, Your Honours.
12 MR. NEUNER: The Prosecution has no further questions,
13 Your Honour.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
15 This would appear to be a convenient time for us to have the
16 first break.
17 MR. NEUNER: I just apologise, I must have overlooked the last
18 page, and I'm really sorry. I must have overlooked the last page of this
19 exhibit because there is still six persons.
20 JUDGE PARKER: We'll have it back on the screen, Mr. Neuner.
21 MR. NEUNER:
22 Q. And I apologise also to the witness. Yes.
23 Witness, if you could be so kind and identify the person on the
24 upper left-hand side.
25 A. The person in the upper left-hand side is Agim Loku, Nazmi Loku's
2 Q. And the person in the upper middle?
3 A. This is Ismail Loku, Agim's brother, Agim Loku's brother. They
4 were two brothers.
5 Q. The person in the upper right-hand side?
6 A. Ismail Kuqi.
7 Q. The lower right-hand side?
8 A. This is Zymer Loku. He was about 70 years old.
9 Q. The person on the lower middle?
10 A. The person in the middle is my brother, Milaim Loku.
11 Q. And the person of the lower right-hand side?
12 A. This is Reshat Rexha from Ivaja.
13 MR. NEUNER: If I could also - thank you. If this exhibit can be
14 removed - ask that Exhibit 360 is shown to this witness, another picture.
15 Q. What is depicted here?
16 A. This picture depicts the holes that we mentioned earlier from
17 where we got the bodies of the people that we saw in the photographs.
18 Q. And could you say a little bit -- who provided it to the ICTY?
19 A. I gave this picture to the Tribunal, together with the other
21 Q. And what time of the year was this picture approximately taken?
22 A. That was late fall or maybe early spring when there were no
23 leaves on the trees, maybe February or March.
24 Q. Have you yourself taken that picture?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. NEUNER: Can I seek to tender this exhibit into evidence,
2 Your Honours.
3 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
4 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 00360 would be assigned P00660,
5 Your Honours.
6 MR. NEUNER: The Prosecution has no further questions at this
8 JUDGE PARKER: That being so, we will have the first break now.
9 We must have a break at this time to enable the tapes to be
10 rewound which takes half an hour. So we'll resume at 11.00. The court
11 officer will show you after we have adjourned where to go.
12 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
13 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Now, Mr. Djurdjic, do you cross-examine?
15 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Djurdjic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Loku, my name is Veljko Djurdjic. I'm a
18 member of the Defence team of the accused, Vlastimir Djordjevic. With me
19 is my associate Ms. Marie O'Leary; she is a member of our team as well.
20 Now I would like to ask you to listen carefully to my questions and to
21 answer as briefly as you can. If you don't understand my question,
22 please tell me, and I will try to clarify.
23 Now I would like us to go back, if we can, to P6562 [as
24 interpreted], page 9.
25 Mr. Loku, here is there just one circle that is drawn in where
1 you say "gropa"?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me, what does it mean when it says
4 g-r-o-p-a-e and when it is written g-r-o-p-e-s in Albanian?
5 A. "Gropa," as I have written it on the sketch, is in plural,
6 meaning two or more holes, whereas "gropes" has no meaning in Albanian.
7 MR. DJURDJIC: Now I would like us to look at Exhibit P652. And
8 if possible I would like to have the Albanian and the English version on
9 the screen. Page 6, please in the Albanian version. In English it's the
10 end of page 5, but I think that what I'm actually interested in is on
11 page 6 of the English version.
12 Q. Mr. Loku, can you see in the Albanian version at the beginning of
13 the page, then it's the fourth paragraph on that page. It ends with the
14 words "gropes." In the Serbian translation, and I believe in the English
15 translation, it -- it is "hole" in the singular.
16 A. Yes, I do read it. It's clear. It says:
17 "After these groups had left," the groups refer to the groups of
18 people that had gathered in the fields of the village, "groups" refers to
19 a group of people. It has nothing to do with "grope" which in English is
20 "holes" and "wells."
21 Q. At the beginning, that's the second sentence:
22 "And then I saw the captured men being led away towards where I
23 knew there was a large hole."
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Well, does it say here, this thing that I read out?
1 A. Yes. It refers to "holes."
2 Q. Thank you. And "hole" or "holes"? I have the version that says
3 hole in the singular, and that's why I'm asking you whether in the
4 Albanian it's in the singular or in the plural.
5 A. Here it is in singular with the "e" in the end.
6 Q. Thank you. And at the end of the same paragraph, the
7 last-but-one sentence reads:
8 "30 minutes later from the area of the hole," again is it just
9 one hole, singular?
10 A. It's again in singular here.
11 Q. Thank you. And then two sentences further up it says:
12 "I saw the first two villagers thrown into the hole."
13 Is it again in singular?
14 A. It's again in singular here.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can I now get -- in English it's
17 page 6, and in the Albanian language it's page 7.
18 Q. In the first sentence it says:
19 "I spoke to Rexhep Loku who remained in my village, and he has
20 told me that on the edge of the hole ..."
21 A. I cannot find it.
22 Q. That's at page 7 in the Albanian version, the third paragraph
23 from the bottom.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And in my version it says:
1 "I spoke to Rexhep Loku, who remained in my village, and he told
2 me that on the edge of the hole ..."
3 Is it one hole, singular, here?
4 A. Sometimes it is in singular and sometimes in plural. In the
5 statement there are cases when it is written with "a," "gropa," and then
6 when it is written with "e" for singular.
7 Q. Now I asked you about paragraph 27. I never found any mention of
8 the word ending in an "a." I did find mention of the word ending with an
9 "e." So I'm asking you about 27th paragraph, it's the third paragraph
10 from the bottom in the Albanian language, is it in the singular or in the
11 plural here? You can see that Rexhep Loku is mentioned here.
12 A. It is in singular.
13 Q. And it says "gropes," it's the singular, but I suppose it's in a
14 different case, "buze gropes."
15 A. Yes, it says "gropes."
16 Q. And that means "at the edge of the hole" when you translate it,
17 "buze gropes," that's what it means?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Well, Exhibit P360 is a picture, but I
20 thought first that we wouldn't have to look at it --
21 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] -- but do put it on the screen.
22 Q. I want to ask you something about that.
23 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] No, that's not the one. 360, P.
24 It's the picture of two wells.
25 MR. NEUNER: Maybe --
1 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] My friend could perhaps assist me.
2 MR. NEUNER: I think you were referring to 65 ter number 360,
3 which I have noted down as P660, Exhibit P660.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Neuner.
5 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, my learned friend.
6 Q. Witness, do you recall what year this photograph was taken?
7 A. This photograph was taken after the events, that is, after we
8 returned from Macedonia where we stayed as refugees. I did not note down
9 the date, but it should be in 1999/2000, after we returned from
11 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me, where were you when you took the
13 A. This is a photograph taken from the direction where I was hiding,
14 from where I could see the events.
15 Q. What camera did you use to take this photograph, if you can tell
16 us, please?
17 A. A digital camera that I had at home. I don't know the name of
18 the model, but that's a camera we used in my family.
19 Q. Thank you. How -- what is the elevation of the spot from which
20 you took this photograph above sea level, if you know that?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Thank you. But from what I can see on this photograph, do you
23 agree that that spot would be higher than the area where those holes are?
24 A. No, it's not higher.
25 Q. Well, are those two holes lower or at the same height as the
1 place from which you took this photograph?
2 A. The place from where I took this photograph is lower than the
3 place of the two holes, but these two holes cannot be seen from above but
4 from the side. They can be seen from the side.
5 Q. Thank you. You've answered my question. But can you explain to
6 me, was there a wooded area at the position from which you took the
8 A. There were trees, but -- oak trees, but not so many. The old
9 fortress is nearby.
10 Q. Thank you. And can you tell me when did you hand-over this
11 photograph and to whom did you hand it over?
12 A. I brought these photographs here. I don't know to whom I hand
13 them over. When I came here to testify before the Tribunal, I took them
14 with me and handed them over. I don't remember the name of the person
15 whom I gave them to. I brought many photographs, not only these ones
16 that we saw.
17 Q. Thank you. I can see two dots here. It's obviously a photograph
18 that has already been used in a different trial. I think you testified
19 in both the Milosevic and the Milutinovic trials. And did you put those
20 dots here the first time that you came here or the second time?
21 A. What do you mean, dots?
22 Q. Well, I can see two red dots. It's usually the witnesses who do
23 that. Do you see it on the photograph? To the left of the first hole
24 and above the second hole; it's red circles. Usually this is the kind of
25 markings that witnesses make here using the pen.
1 A. The red dots, they are not dots. They are the national flags of
2 Albania. These are two flags placed on each side of the holes.
3 Q. Oh, yeah, of course. I'm sorry. I do apologise. But do you
4 remember when you handed over those photographs for the first time?
5 A. I don't remember.
6 Q. Thank you. I just have one more question regarding this
7 photograph. So you rule out the possibility that this photograph was
8 given to you by the Austrian forensic team?
9 A. As I said, I brought many photographs here. One of them is this
10 one that we are looking at. There are photographs that I took myself
11 with my camera, there were also other photographs. As I said, there were
12 many photographs. Now, whether this is the one that I took personally,
13 that I don't know, but it resembles the one that I took myself. It's
14 taken from the same position and depicts the same location.
15 Q. And do you recall the arrival of the Austrian forensic team?
16 A. I don't remember the exact time when they came. Many teams came,
17 teams from KFOR, from UNMIK, a Norwegian team, a Swiss team came. Many
18 teams came to inspect the site where the events occurred, but the team
19 that exhumed these two holes, I think it had Austrian -- it comprised of
20 Austrians, and there was some Norwegians, too, as part of that team.
21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Loku.
22 Mr. Loku, at the beginning of your testimony today you told my
23 learned friend, Mr. Neuner, that on the 8th of March there had been
24 shelling from the location that you mentioned, Kasa, Kacanik, Gorance.
25 And you said that those had been the Serb police forces, that they did
1 the shelling. How do you know that?
2 A. We knew that because we had seen these forces on those positions
3 for months when we would travel around the local roads and pass through
4 their check-points. The army also had sort of a barracks at Gllobocica
5 because that's where the border with Macedonia is. The borderline from
6 Gllobocica to Hani i Elezit, along this line there were also military
7 forces of the former Yugoslavia stationed there, and in the northern part
8 that I pointed out there were also Serb forces positioned. We could see
9 these forces when we would go to Kacanik, on our way to Kacanik and back.
10 Q. Well, how do you know how far those forces were from your
12 A. They were not positioned very far. The village of Gllobocica is
13 about 4 or 5 kilometres far from our village as the crow flies. Then the
14 position at Kashan is also less than 4 or 5 kilometres as the crow flies
15 far from our village. The third position is also about 4 kilometres far
16 as the crow flies.
17 Q. And how about Kacanik?
18 A. Kacanik is a little bit further, about 12 or 13 kilometres away.
19 Q. Thank you. Visually when you are in Kotlina, do you see these
20 places you mentioned?
21 A. You can see three of these places from Kotlina, Gllobocica,
22 Kashan, and Gorance.
23 Q. With a naked eye?
24 A. Yes, with a naked eye.
25 Q. Thank you. And from what artillery piece did they shell?
1 A. At two of the positions that I passed by very often, Gllobocica
2 and Kashan positions, I saw tanks positioned there, and we did see shells
3 falling in the outskirts of the village. I think that these shells came
4 from these positions.
5 Q. Thank you. And these tanks, they were what colour?
6 A. They were Yugoslav Army tanks, green.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] May I call up Defence
9 Exhibit D002-5868. Image number 3 first. Thank you.
10 Q. Can you describe this image, Mr. Loku?
11 A. Yes. This is the gravestone of Mahi Loku, Mahi Shefedin Loku.
12 Q. Thank you. Where is this tombstone?
13 A. This is in the martyrs' cemetery in Kacanik.
14 Q. On the tombstone are there any symbols?
15 A. As I said, this is the martyrs' cemetery in the municipality of
17 Q. Thank you. Is the late person depicted in uniform?
18 A. The person when he was killed, he was in civilian clothes.
19 However, when they were depicted here in the tombstone, the photographs
20 were the same. They were depicted in the same way as far as clothes are
22 Q. Thank you. And to cut the long story short, on all the other
23 photographs there is an engraved coat of arms of the KLA, isn't there?
24 A. All of them have the KLA emblem, and the uniforms were drawn,
25 these uniforms were from the KLA, both the uniforms and the emblems were
1 engraved on the tombstone.
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Loku.
3 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we now have the photograph
4 number 4.
5 Q. Can you tell us whose tombstone this is.
6 A. Yes. This is the grave of Sabri Hamid Loku.
7 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we have image number 5.
8 Q. Am I right, Witness, that this is Adnan Loku's grave?
9 A. Yes, yes, it is. His gravestone.
10 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Image number 6, please.
11 Q. Would I be right in saying that on this photo we see the
12 tombstone of Neshat Rexha?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you. Now it struck me, is that the same person you
15 mentioned today when my learned friend asked you who was the first to
16 give you the news of the events in Ivaja?
17 A. Yes, this is the person.
18 Q. Thank you. And let us clear up one more thing, although I
19 believe there are many more errors. His exact name, can you tell us how
20 to read it in Albanian.
21 A. His name on the tombstone is Neshat. Whether it was Reshat or
22 Neshat, I wasn't sure at the time, but he is the same person. He is the
23 son of Ferat Rexha.
24 Q. Thank you. This was image 6.
25 MR. DJURDJIC: Image number 7, please?
1 Q. Is the name of Abush Loku on the tombstone?
2 A. Yes, Abush Loku, a martyr from the village of Kotline.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Image 9, please.
5 Q. Is it Xhemajl Kuqi?
6 A. Yes, Xhemajl Nuredin Kuqi.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] May I call up Defence Exhibit
9 D002 -- in fact, I should have asked to tender the -- this document.
10 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
11 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
12 JUDGE PARKER: This is the images that you've identified and had
14 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Pages 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 9 of e-court,
16 Your Honours, of D002-5868 will be assigned D00079.
17 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Now may I call up D002-5879,
18 please. Image 9, please, first. I think that's the one.
19 Q. Could you tell us what we see on this picture.
20 A. Here you can see part of the Kotline village. The picture is
21 taken from the road from Kashan that I mentioned earlier.
22 Q. Thank you. All this greenery and the hill in the background of
23 the picture, is it where the holes were, the ones we talked about a
24 moment ago?
25 A. The green area above the village is the place where the young
1 people of the village had been grouped together and where they were
3 Q. Could you encircle the place where they were executed.
4 A. The picture was taken after the foliage came on, so if I am -- if
5 I am correct, the place should be somewhere here, the place where they
6 were executed.
7 Q. Thank you. I think you are right. And now I'd like to know --
8 please don't draw anything. Just tell me, are you able to determine the
9 location where you were then? Is it visible here? No, no, please don't
10 take the pen. Just --
11 A. The place I was staying is not here in the photograph. It's on
12 the right part of this photograph.
13 Q. So if we look to the right of the photograph ...
14 A. Well, as I see the photograph, the place is to the left.
15 Q. Thank you. We just need to describe the way we see it.
16 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] For the record, the red [sic]
17 circle is the witness's mark for the area, the location where the holes
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Loku. So your location was to the left outside
20 this photograph.
21 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can I have image number -- first
22 may I tender this document.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Neuner.
24 MR. NEUNER: If I could just say, it's probably a transcript
25 error, it's a blue circle, not a red circle, as is depicted in the
2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
3 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, thank you, it's a slip
4 of the tongue on my part.
5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D00080, Your Honours.
6 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] May I now call up image 16.
7 Q. Mr. Loku, do you recognise the location depicted here?
8 A. If you can, please don't show me photographs with vegetation
9 because I cannot see anything here for the moment. I can see some oak
10 trees, and that's it.
11 Q. Okay. Let's move on.
12 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Image 3, please.
13 Q. Do you recognise the location where the holes were? It's even
14 closer than the first photo.
15 A. Yes, yes, this is from closer up.
16 Q. Thank you. Can you now encircle the place where these people
17 were in the woods?
18 A. The place where they were executed.
19 Q. Just for the transcript let me say that the witness put a blue
20 circle on the photo, and I would like to tender this document.
21 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
22 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D00081, Your Honours.
23 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. The image 5, please.
24 Q. Mr. Loku, is the place with the holes even more visible here?
25 A. Yes, it is more visible. Yes, I can see it.
1 Q. Can you encircle it again.
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. Tell me, where do you think this photograph was taken from? Was
4 it a location higher or lower than the ground shown?
5 MR. NEUNER: Could I first ask my learned colleague to ask who
6 was taking this picture. I mean, if the witness has taken this picture
7 he can certainly speak about it, but to the Prosecution it's unclear that
8 this witness has taken this picture.
9 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Mr. Neuner, it's not
10 the witness who took this photograph. It's my colleague,
11 Tomislav Visnjic, who took it. And these photographs were used in the
12 Milutinovic case, and they are in evidence in that case. But I asked the
13 witness about the photograph, about whether it was taken from a higher or
14 a lower ground than the ground shown or maybe from the same level.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It could be the same level or lower
16 than that.
17 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] May I tender this document.
20 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
21 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D00082, Your Honours.
22 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Image 7, please.
23 Q. Mr. Loku, this seems to be a close-up of the place. I'd like to
24 say that the photographs seen before were taken on the 24th of May, but I
25 don't know the year. This is now a close-up, a zoom-in; right?
1 A. It resembles it, yes.
2 Q. Are you sure, or do you think it is?
3 A. I'm sure.
4 Q. Please put a circle around it.
5 A. [Marks]
6 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I note for the record that the
7 witness put a blue circle around the location where there were holes in
8 the ground, and I tender this document.
9 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
10 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D00083, Your Honours.
11 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Witness, P361, may I call this exhibit up. This is already an
13 exhibit. It has a P number. It's the report of the Austrian forensic
14 team. Witness, on page 6, paragraph 24, of your statement you said --
15 sorry, it's a 65 ter statement. You said --
16 MR. NEUNER: If my learned colleague could wait a little bit.
17 This report is not yet on the screen. You're referring here to a
18 report -- just so the witness knows what you're talking about. Thank
20 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. But I want to quote to
21 the witness from his statement and then show him the report of the
22 forensic team.
23 Q. So in paragraph 24 of your statement it says:
24 "We also found Zymer Loku. He was still alive but seriously
25 wounded. He had wounds on his chest, and his -- the back of his right
1 knee was almost completely torn off."
2 A. We found Zymer Loku. He was heavily injured. His left leg had
3 been completely -- almost completely torn off, and he had bullet-holes on
4 his clothes. He succumbed to the wounds late -- in the late hours of the
5 24th of March. We found him alive, but he couldn't speak.
6 Q. Thank you. You just said the left lower leg. In the statement
7 it's the right lower leg.
8 A. It was his right leg and left arm.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could you now put page 40 on the
11 screen in English from the report of the Austrian forensic team. It's
12 number 25, Zymer Loku where it says:
13 "A gun-shot wound was found on the calf of the right leg. The
14 wound was inexpertly bandaged."
15 Q. Witness, did you understand what was noted in the report of the
16 Austrian forensic team concerning the injury? They do not describe any
17 wounds in the chest that you referred to and certainly not the leg, the
18 left lower leg that was almost severed.
19 A. I did not see this report; however, he was haemorrhaging from his
20 left arm and right leg. He could hardly speak -- he couldn't speak at
21 all as a matter of fact. Some people tried to stop the bleeding. I did
22 not look into the body to see where all the wounds were.
23 Q. Thank you. Now I would like you to put page 39 up on the screen
24 in the English version. It's the same exhibit. And let me read out to
25 you, sir, what you say in your statement regarding Idriz Kuqi.
1 "I saw how Idriz was shot at point-blank range in the back of his
2 head. He had a small entrance wound on the back of his head, and his
3 face was almost completely shattered."
4 Is this correct, what you say in your statement?
5 MR. NEUNER: Could you just give the page reference of this
6 statement, please, so that the Prosecution can follow. Thank you.
7 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Let me give it to you.
8 It's paragraph 19 at page 5 of the Serbian version, paragraph 19; and in
9 the English version it's page 5, second paragraph at the bottom of the
10 paragraph, third line from the bottom.
11 "I returned to the village and saw the body of Idriz Kuqi in the
12 yard of the house of Liman Loku, I could see that Idriz had been" -- and
13 so on.
14 MR. NEUNER: Thank you.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Idriz was killed in his neighbour's
16 courtyard. We found his body near the toilet which was outside in the
17 yard. It was a wound in the head, and the description I gave in my
18 statement was how I saw him on the spot. He was executed, shot in his
19 head, he was covered in blood. I didn't touch the body. We left the
20 body there. We just saw that he had died and continued further.
21 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Thank you. And in the report of the Austrian forensic team,
23 that's body number 24, Idriz Kuqi, I already gave the reference. It's
24 page 39 of the English version it says:
25 "On the right-hand side of the body there is an entrance gun-shot
1 wound. The fourth rib was shot at the place where it joins the thoracic
2 bone. Those are gun-shot wounds, and they are the cause of death."
3 Witness, do you notice any difference between what you said and
4 what is stated in the forensic report?
5 A. I saw that his head was covered in blood. I didn't check his
6 body for all his wounds. I just saw that his head was covered in blood.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I would like the portion of the
9 Austrian forensic team's report, pages 39 and 40, bodies number 24,
10 that's Idriz Kuqi, and 25, Zymer Loku, be admitted into evidence.
11 JUDGE PARKER: That's the English version I take it?
12 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
13 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received, those pages.
14 THE REGISTRAR: They will be assigned D00084, Your Honours.
15 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 Q. Mr. Loku, you were born in Kotlina. Did your family live there?
17 Now I would like to ask you --
18 A. [Previous translation continues]... and I lived there.
19 Q. [Previous translation continues]... you lived in a communal home,
20 or did you all live separately? I apologise. I don't know if you heard
21 me, or should I repeat the question? I'm not asking the witness. I'm --
22 let me repeat the question. Did you live in a communal home, or did you
23 have a separate household? Did you live in a separate household?
24 A. With my family, I lived in the same house with my parents and my
25 two sisters, so my family comprising of myself, my wife, and four
2 Q. Thank you. Did you have one or several houses -- buildings,
3 that's what I mean.
4 A. Our family had three houses, buildings. My brother who was
5 killed on the 9th of March lived in one of the houses; we used the second
6 house to live in. The houses where I live are not in the centre of the
7 village. They are situated in another neighbourhood. On the 8th of
8 March when there was shelling in Ivaje, the whole neighbourhood moved
9 from the neighbourhood to the centre of the village to join the rest of
10 the villagers there.
11 Q. I apologise. I don't understand. Did you live separate from
12 your father and brother, or did you live together? Were those different
13 houses in different locations?
14 A. I lived with my parents and my two sisters, whereas my brother
15 lived in a separate house with his family.
16 Q. Thank you. And the house where you lived, did it have a yard?
17 A. Yes, every house has a yard.
18 Q. Thank you. Now, was this yard walled off from the street and
19 other houses, properties?
20 A. No.
21 Q. So you didn't have a wall?
22 A. There is a wall on the side where the street is, but in the upper
23 part there is no wall. The area where the house is, is not flat; it's a
24 little bit elevated. Therefore, the part near the street had a wall,
25 whereas in the back garden there was no wall.
1 Q. Thank you. How high was the wall?
2 A. Depending on the elevation, between 2 and 2 something.
3 Q. Thank you. What was it made of?
4 A. Stone, simple stones.
5 Q. Thank you. And did you perhaps have an entrance gate?
6 A. There was an entrance gate, a simple one made of tin.
7 Q. Thank you. How big was the gate? Could you please tell me.
8 A. A vehicle could go through it, 2 metres by 2 metres I would say.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 Mr. Loku, am I right if I say that you were not in Ivaja on the
11 8th of March?
12 A. No, I wasn't there.
13 Q. Thank you. And how do you know that the tanks tore down the
14 houses as they passed through Ivaja on that day?
15 A. I went to Ivaja four or five days later. My brother was missing
16 as of 9th of March. I was looking for him, so after three, four, or five
17 days I went to Ivaja together with another villager to search for my
18 brother. We came near the neighbourhoods of Ivaja, and that's where we
19 saw what had happened in the village on the 8th of March. The houses
20 were torn down. There was still smoke coming out of some of the houses.
21 The school building was damaged. The school building is in the part of
22 the village facing Kotline. We also saw that the mosque had been
23 destroyed and burnt. Everything was burnt down or still burning.
24 Q. Thank you. But that's not what I asked you, and you didn't
25 answer my questions. I asked you how do you know that the tanks tore
1 down the houses in Ivaja when you were not there? And in your statement
2 you say that they destroyed the houses by crashing into them.
3 A. I saw the tanks tearing down the houses in Dreshec neighbourhood
4 of Kotline, whereas in Ivaja I saw the traces of the tracks of the tanks
5 near the houses. They had destroyed the houses that were closer to the
7 Q. Thank you. Now, am I right that between the Serb forces and the
8 KLA, the fighting went on for three days in Ivaja on the 8th of March?
9 A. No, you are mistaken. That's not correct.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now have on our screens
12 the transcript from the Milosevic case, it's D002-5798, page 2026.
13 Q. When asked by the amicus curiae, when he was shown a part of the
14 statement of the 4th of May, 1999, he says:
15 "I knew that in Ivaja but not around Ivaja" --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the counsel please
17 slow down when reading.
18 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
19 "Yes, I said around Ivaja on the 8th of March there were clashes
20 between the KLA liberation forces and the Serb occupation forces. At the
21 same time the inhabitants of the village I think were there, but during
22 the resistance which lasted three days between the KLA and the Serb
23 forces they managed to flee the village and escape the worst, even though
24 a civilian was killed."
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did say this, maybe it was
1 erroneously recorded. I didn't say three days. In Ivaja only for one
2 day, on the 8th of March there was fighting. Thanks to the KLA, the
3 population that was during that day in Ivaja managed to escape death.
4 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this
7 portion of the transcript into evidence, so that's page 2026, lines 3
8 through 12.
9 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
10 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D00085, Your Honours.
11 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Witness, was the name Qamil Iljazi mean anything to you?
13 A. Yes, I knew him personally.
14 Q. Can you tell us what he was doing in 1999?
15 A. Before 1999 this person worked at the municipality for a while.
16 With the measures taken at the time, he was dismissed from work. He then
17 started to work in financing the schooling and education system in
18 municipality. As I was myself a teacher, I used to meet him at least
19 once a week -- once a month --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Correction.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- because he was a member of the
22 council that issued the salaries to the teachers.
23 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Thank you. And was he in Ivaja or in Kotlina? Where did he
1 A. He didn't live in Ivaja or Kotline. He lived in old Kacanik.
2 Q. Thank you. But does the name Bexhet Topalli, a.k.a. Kaxhet
3 [phoen] mean anything to you?
4 A. Bexhet Topalli, no, he doesn't ring a bell.
5 Q. From the village of Drnagllava, municipality of Kacanik?
6 A. No, I don't know this person.
7 Q. Thank you. And do you know Selim Kuqi?
8 A. There is no Selim Kuqi in Kotline. There were earlier, but that
9 person moved from Kotline to Tetove.
10 Q. Well, did he go back in 1999 to Kotlina?
11 A. No, I didn't see him.
12 Q. Thank you. And did you know Dr. Sefedin Kuqi?
13 A. There is no Dr. Sefedin Kuqi in Kotline. We still don't have a
14 doctor in Kotline.
15 Q. Well, I merely asked you if you knew Sefedin Kuqi,
16 Dr. Sefedin Kuqi.
17 A. I don't know any Sefedin Kuqi, and this person does not exist in
19 Q. And do you know Dr. Faton Loku?
20 A. Faton Loku is a son of a relative of mine. I know him. He lives
21 in Kotline. He is not a doctor. He graduated from the Faculty of
22 Pharmacy in Prishtina.
23 Q. Thank you. And was he in Kotlina in March 1999?
24 A. Faton Loku lived in Kotline. That day, on the critical day, as
25 far as I remember, he was staying with relatives in Ferizaj.
1 Q. Thank you. Mr. Loku, I have in my hand Bexheti Shefqet's
2 statement given on the 10th of March, 1999. It is a preliminary
3 interview he gave to the SUP
4 there was a KLA headquarters, the Main Staff, with 378 members and that
5 there was a sub-headquarters in the village of Kotlina with 350 members.
6 And then that in Kotlina there was the main infirmary for the Kacanik
7 zone that was manned by the two doctors that I mentioned, Sefedin Kuqi
8 and Faton Loku. You don't know anything about that? Oh, and I
9 apologise, that the deputy commander in the sub-headquarters in Kotlina
10 was Milaim Kuqi, I think it is your brother.
11 A. Shefqet Bexheti, I don't know this name, I cannot take any
12 responsibility for what he said. I'm telling you about what I went
13 through. There is no Dr. Sefedin Kuqi in Kotline. Faton Loku is of the
14 age of 23 or 24 now, so you can imagine what kind of doctor he could have
15 been in 1999. Milaim Loku is the name of my brother, not Milaim Kuqi, as
16 you read it out, if you're referring to my brother.
17 Q. Yes, you're right, Kuqi, that's what I said. And I made a
18 mistake that it's Milaim Loku.
19 MR. DJORDJEVIC: I think it's now time for a technical break,
20 Your Honours.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Yes, we must have the second break,
22 and we will resume at 1.00.
23 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Neuner.
1 MR. NEUNER: I'm just rising because of the last statement which
2 was shown to the witness. I wanted to bring this on the record that we
3 were not informed about this -- the existence of this statement before it
4 was used. It was not on the list of documents to be used with this
5 witness. And I also wanted to say that I made an effort in the break to
6 get a copy of this document. With the endeavours of the Defence, I was
7 now in a position to get a B/C/S copy of it which doesn't tell me much of
8 course. But it is definitely very much appreciated that I now have a
9 copy in B/C/S. And I also saw from the transcript, which I reviewed
10 during the break, that it remained a little bit ambiguous whether the
11 witness's brother was in the KLA or not. It was put to him after
12 having -- after the statement was read that the statement claimed that
13 his brother was in the KLA, and I believe it is not clear from the record
14 itself. If this could be clarified, please.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Do I understand you are not taking the matter
16 further to say that re-examination should be delayed?
17 MR. NEUNER: I can't do any re-examination at this point in time
18 because I don't have an English version. If my learned friend could ask
19 for clarification whether the witness's brother is implicated here, maybe
20 the Prosecution could be flexible without having really studied that
21 document and say we don't insist on a delayed re-examination. Maybe if I
22 could just listen to what my learned friend is doing with the statement,
23 and I hope it is not being tendered into evidence because we haven't seen
24 it, and we weren't notified about it. Thank you, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
1 Mr. Djurdjic.
2 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. First of
3 all, I have to say I was wrong when I told the witness that Milaim Kuqi
4 was his brother, he corrected me, and I said on the record I was wrong.
5 So Milaim Kuqi is not a brother or any kind of kin to the witness.
6 That's one. Second, I did not use the document, and I did not tender it.
7 Instead of copying the document and asking the witness about it, I just
8 read out certain passages to the witness, and the witness answered if he
9 was aware of certain things or not. I never wanted the document to be
10 admitted into evidence. If the Prosecutor had asked for the document, I
11 would have given it, but I never intended to tender it. Even without the
12 document I could have asked the same questions. If I was wrong, then
13 please correct me, and I will take a different position.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic, the procedural position, as you
15 understand it, I think needs to be adjusted. You will be for our
16 purposes using a document if you cross-examine on it, even if you don't
17 show the document to the witness or don't tender it as an exhibit. If it
18 forms the basis for your questions, as this one did, it's a document that
19 is subject to our ordinary procedural disclosure orders because one of
20 the objects of those orders is to enable the Prosecution to prepare to
21 respond to your questioning on the document. I hope that is clear.
22 Mr. Neuner.
23 MR. NEUNER: I just wanted to make two observations to what my
24 learned friend has just said. In the Prosecution's view this document
25 was used --
1 JUDGE PARKER: That's been already indicated.
2 MR. NEUNER: I just wanted to add one more thing then, please, if
3 I'm allowed to.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Something new, yes.
5 MR. NEUNER: Yeah, that it was not put on the ELMO so that we
6 even -- while it was being used in the courtroom had no chance to even
7 see whether it was an ICTY witness statement or a non-ICTY witness
9 JUDGE PARKER: No, you were told it was a statement to operatives
10 of the SUP
11 MR. NEUNER: Okay.
12 JUDGE PARKER: So you knew it was not.
13 MR. NEUNER: Okay. I knew then that it was not. And I also
14 wanted to say we would resist to any practice that we have in advance to
15 approach the Defence and ask them whether they use additional documents
16 which are not on their list, so I hope that this is not the case, but
17 that we are pro-actively being informed if new documents are being shown.
18 Thank you.
19 JUDGE PARKER: That is made clear by our standard procedural
20 orders, and we indicated to Mr. Djurdjic that he needs to adjust his
21 understanding of those orders in this respect.
22 So if you're ready to carry on with your cross-examination,
23 Mr. Djurdjic.
24 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I
25 understand, and in the future I know now how to present certain
1 statements or passages of statements in questioning witnesses.
2 Q. Now, Witness, in paragraph 4 you state that at 4.00 a.m. two
3 rockets were fired above the village. How do you know about this?
4 A. These were not projectiles. They were rockets that came from
5 Gllobocica, and they lighted up the sky over the village. We saw them.
6 We saw the light they made, and we came out of our houses.
7 Q. Thank you. May I conclude then that you were awake since you saw
8 two rockets above the village?
9 A. Yes, we were awake. We know what we've been through, what the
10 situation was like. During the whole day the war thundered in the
11 village. We couldn't sleep properly, even though we went to sleep -- we
12 tried to. And my family -- our families were all scared, and we tried to
13 comfort them, and most of the time we were awake and not sleeping.
14 Q. Thank you. In this paragraph you also state that a plan had been
15 made to evacuate the village. Who and when made it?
16 A. There wasn't a plan as such. We learned about what happened in
17 Ivaje on the 8th of March, so we were all anxious, and we had this
18 foreboding that the same thing would happen to us in our village. We
19 decided to stay in the houses, but we still were not safe. So one idea
20 was to leave the village and go towards the border with Macedonia,
21 towards Gllobocica, or the other way was to go towards Kacanik and join
22 the rest of the population. Because all the villages around our village
23 had been emptied of their inhabitants.
24 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 5 you state that 30 villagers dispersed
25 in order to see where the Serb forces were. Was that part of the plan?
1 A. No, this was not part of the plan. After the light we saw from
2 the rocket all the people came out into the yards, and some of the
3 younger men went in all directions around the village to see what was
4 going on. Because the signs were not good. We didn't know where to go,
5 whether to go towards Kacanik or towards Gllobocica because we could see
6 that it was impossible to stay in our houses any longer.
7 Q. Thank you. Could you please give me short and direct answers to
8 my questions. I have already your statement, and I'm asking only about
9 the portions I'm interested in. You said also that they did not go
10 further than 100 metres beyond the perimeter of the village. How do you
11 know that?
12 A. We know that because some of them came back very soon, in
13 ten minutes or so, and they told us that the road towards Kacanik had
14 been blocked and they could hear the rumble of the tanks from that
15 direction. And listening to that and learning that the road there had
16 been blocked, we oriented the population towards the other direction,
17 towards Gllobocica.
18 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 6 you say it was decided that men
19 between 16 and 45 years of age should hide, and 60 to 70 men hid in a
20 ditch. Why was this decided?
21 A. This was decided because every evening we heard the news that
22 Serb and Slav forces would separate the young men from the rest of their
23 families, and they would not be found again. That's why some of the
24 young men decided not to join the women and the elderly.
25 Q. Thank you. And they were all able-bodied men; did I understand
1 that correctly?
2 A. No. There were disabled people among them.
3 Q. Thank you. You state in paragraph 12 that at the cemetery in the
4 village of Kotlina - I just want to get this right - the bodies of
5 Milaim Loku and is it Erleh were buried; is that right?
6 A. Yes, the bodies of Milaim Loku and Emrlah Kuqi, these are two
7 persons from the village that were killed on the 9th of March, the first
8 two victims in the village.
9 Q. Thank you. And is it correct that you informed the Prosecution
10 now, on the 21st of April, that your brother, Milaim Loku, was buried in
11 Kacanik at the KLA cemetery?
12 A. Yes, he was buried there, in the Kacanik cemetery. He was
13 reburied there. I buried him with my own hands in the cemetery in my
14 village. When we came back from Macedonia, I buried him, and then later
15 on he was reburied in the cemetery in Kacanik.
16 Q. Thank you. Have you ever been shown the forensic report -- well,
17 let me ask this first: Was there -- was the body of your brother
18 exhumed --
19 A. There was no forensic report on my brother.
20 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 15 - we've already discussed this a
21 little - you said the village was shelled on the 24th of March from four
22 locations. And in your additional statement from the 5th of September,
23 2006, you said that Kasak [as interpreted] was several kilometres from
24 Kotlina; Globocica, 7 to 10 kilometres. I think you quoted different
25 distances earlier today.
1 A. Approximate distances. These are just approximate distances.
2 Maybe they would differ by 1 or 2 kilometres from the real distance;
3 however, I did not measure them so I don't really know.
4 Q. Thank you. Regarding paragraph 16 you said you went south of the
5 village. What is the distance between these two points as the crow
6 flies, between that point and the place where captives were taken?
7 A. I went south immediately where the fields end. As the crow flies
8 it is about 150 to 200 metres away from where the fields are.
9 Q. Thank you. That group that went north into the woods, was there
10 any fire from that direction?
11 A. There was no fire from any direction whatsoever. I only saw them
12 when they gathered above the village close to the infirmary.
13 Q. Thank you. Am I right in saying that you were not an eye-witness
14 of the death of Idriz Kuqi?
15 A. Idriz Kuqi was in the group of the families in the fields. I saw
16 him when he was separated from his family because he had his
17 characteristic cap, white cap, on his head. And then he was taken
18 towards a group of houses, and from there I could not see him anymore. I
19 only saw him when he was separated and taken towards the houses.
20 Q. Thank you. Am I right in saying that you did not eye-witness the
21 death of Vesel Vlashi?
22 A. I did not eye-witness Vesel Vlashi's death.
23 Q. Thank you. Am I right in saying that at that time -- in fact, in
24 that time of the year at 10.00 p.m. it is dark?
25 A. No, that's not correct. About 3.30 or 4.00 p.m. it would become
1 dark at the time. At 10.00 p.m. it would be pitch black.
2 Q. I'm sorry, I meant 3.30 p.m. I meant 3.30 p.m.
3 A. Yes, the sun goes down at that time, so it becomes dark.
4 Q. Thank you. Did you see in which direction that group was taken
5 to those pits that you spoke about, on what road?
6 A. There are some paths that lead you towards Ivaje, a footpath.
7 Then they took them from this path to other paths up to the holes.
8 Q. And you saw all of that?
9 A. Yes, I saw them with my own eyes. I was together with a cousin
10 when I saw them, Izet Loku.
11 Q. Very well. And did you see the scene of crime investigation team
12 from the police come to investigate in the village and that location near
13 the wells and the pits?
14 A. On that day there was a lot of movement everywhere was chaos, and
15 I couldn't be able to observe everything. There were police forces,
16 military forces everywhere moving around, was horror. I was focused only
17 on the people, my family, where are they going, and what they were doing
18 to the houses in the village. There were gun-shots. We were under fire.
19 The village was under fire. At that time we had a pair of binoculars,
20 hunting binoculars, and we used them to observe what was going on.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we call up D002-5902, page 1.
23 Q. Mr. Loku, we have here the report on the forensic examination of
24 the scene from SUP
25 Kotlina village. It was done on the same date.
1 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Page 2, please.
2 Q. You have seen this document before. It was shown to you in the
3 Milutinovic trial, so I think you're familiar with it. On this page 2 we
4 see a list of items found in certain locations, first in the house which
5 was believed to be the headquarters of the KLA; then there's a list of
6 items found; and there are also photographs that were found there. They
7 are of particular interest to me.
8 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 3.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not aware of the way these
10 photographs were taken, who took them, who produced them, and I do have
11 suspicion as to whether these houses are in my village or not.
12 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Do you recognise this house?
14 A. I do recognise this as a house, but I don't think whether -- I
15 don't know whether this house is in my village or not.
16 Q. Here on picture 2 it says house in the village of Kotlina, which
17 most probably housed the KLA headquarters for Kotlina.
18 A. Yes, that's what is written under the picture, but this can all
19 be speculation by the Serb forces.
20 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 4.
21 Q. Here we see the items photographed within these rooms.
22 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Page 5, please.
23 Q. Same here.
24 MR. NEUNER: I'm just objecting to this way the photos are being
25 introduced. This witness has told Your Honours that he doesn't recognise
1 the pictures, and if my learned colleague goes on in showing pictures
2 without asking any questions to this witness but rather making own
3 comments about it, I suggest that then my learned colleague is
4 testifying. I would object against this way of introducing this exhibit
5 here into the record.
6 JUDGE PARKER: At the moment I understand Mr. Djurdjic to be
7 doing no more than enabling the witness to see all the photographs, and
8 then he will be, I expect, putting a question or questions about them.
9 If that is so, I think the matter may properly proceed, Mr. Neuner.
10 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I said at the outset
11 that the witness is familiar with this exhibit because it was shown to
12 him in the Milutinovic trial, and that's why I'm going through it quickly
13 in order to come to more important things such as the photographs of this
14 location, the wells that were found. I wanted to -- I want to know if
15 the Prosecutor doubts the authenticity or maybe he believes this is
16 irrelevant, but we'll come to this soon, and I'll ask the witness whether
17 he recognises the place where the wells and the bodies inside them were
18 found, and the bodies are on photographs 7, 8, and 9.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic, the issue is whether the witness
20 agrees that these are photographs from his village on that day. That
21 appears to be the present issue. The witness may have seen these
22 photographs some three years ago in the course of another trial, but he
23 will need to make a decision based upon what he sees today as to whether
24 he recognises these photographs or not. Let that be clear to both
1 And you have shown them to him quickly. When you've completed
2 showing them to him, you will, no doubt, be seeking his comments on
3 whether he accepts those as photographs from his village at the relevant
4 time. And we will then learn whether he is able to recognise or not.
5 Depending on his answer, we can then proceed from there. So if you can
6 continue with what you're doing.
7 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Can we call up page 7.
9 Q. On picture 13, the first from the top, we see one of the bodies
10 photographed in the immediate vicinity of the shelter in the form of a
11 well. Do you recognise this place? And would it be that place at the
12 time of the events you spoke of today?
13 A. I cannot make anything out of these photographs. The people were
14 taken to the place of the massacre after they were captured in the
15 village. They were taken there in groups.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at the middle
18 photograph. It's the body from the other side of the Drina.
19 Q. Do you find this place familiar?
20 A. The picture is not clear, and what I see on this photograph
21 resembles a kind of a path rather than a hole.
22 Q. I don't know if you are getting a correct interpretation. I did
23 not mention a path. These are photographs of bodies. There was one
24 body, then another body from the other side, and then a third body on
25 photograph 13. Of course these are not very good photos, but ...
1 JUDGE PARKER: The witness, I believe, has said that he does not
2 see in the photograph any hole. He believes that what he's looking at
3 may be a path, but he emphasizes, as I understand him, the difficulty in
4 him making anything of these images because of their poor quality.
5 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I went picture by
6 picture. We see the well only on page 9 -- or should I say hole. These
7 are images 9 and 10. Of course these are poor-quality photographs, but
8 it is not a path. It is a body. Let us look at page 9 then.
9 Q. On this picture number 19, a close-up of the first described
10 shelter in the form of a well, is that the place in the woods that you
11 described earlier today?
12 A. These photographs look as if they were taken 100 years ago. You
13 can hardly see what they depict, and I cannot tell whether they really
14 depict the wells that I mentioned.
15 Q. Very well. Thank you. Would I be right in saying that you did
16 not go to that place which you observed from the other side on the 24th
17 of March, 1999?
18 A. I don't understand your question. Can you please repeat it.
19 Q. I said would I be right in saying that on the 24th of March,
20 after descending from your observation point, you did not go to that
21 place where the wells were?
22 A. Yes, you're right. I didn't go to the place of the holes.
23 Q. Thank you. No further questions.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Before you leave that, Mr. Djurdjic, you haven't
25 had the witness give his comments on the earlier group of photographs
1 that were showing weapons and the like. If you want us to take anything
2 by way of notice of those or make any evaluation of them, we need to know
3 at least whether the witness recognises or accepts that they are
4 photographs taken in his village at the relative time.
5 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness did not
6 recognise even the house. I -- he thinks that this document is a
7 forgery. That's why I did not show him the items found inside the house,
8 because if he doesn't recognise the house, he can hardly be expected to
9 recognise the interior of it. But I can do it. I can put the photograph
10 back. I'm sorry, it's photograph 10 -- sorry, not 10.
11 MR. NEUNER: I would just have an observation on the record
12 before my colleague proceeds. It was just put here by my learned
13 colleague in the witness's mouth that the witness believes that these
14 pictures are forgery, and I think this is a misstatement of what this
15 witness's evidence is about.
16 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber has heard the witness's account,
17 Mr. Neuner.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE PARKER: Well, if you're content, Mr. Djurdjic, to leave
20 the matter where the transcript presently lies, we can leave it at that.
21 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no
22 further questions.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
24 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Neuner, do you plan a long re-examination?
1 MR. NEUNER: I have very few questions put down.
2 JUDGE PARKER: We can stretch time a little. That's the point.
3 MR. NEUNER: Yeah, if I would -- maybe I can finish within five
4 or seven minutes. I will try.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Please proceed.
6 Re-examination by Mr. Neuner:
7 Q. I have two topics, Mr. Loku, to address. And I try to be brief
8 and would appreciate if you, yourself, also give me brief answers. The
9 first one relates to the vegetation in and around the holes. You lived
10 in Kotlina all your life I understand; correct?
11 A. Yes, I lived there for all my life.
12 Q. Could you tell me, the trees around the wells or holes, are these
13 needle trees or leaf trees, meaning trees carrying leaves?
14 A. All the trees in my village are leaf trees. Their leaves fall in
15 autumn, and they are in blossom in end of April/early May.
16 Q. You responded by saying the trees in your village, but I was
17 asking you for the trees around the holes or wells. Could you tell me
18 what type of trees are around these wells?
19 A. The trees around these wells are trees from which the leaves
21 Q. No needle trees?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Can you tell me when you came here for your testimony how many
24 days ago did you come?
25 A. You mean this last time that I came here?
1 Q. Today.
2 A. You mean when I came here today? I came here in the morning,
3 before 9.00.
4 Q. Sorry, I meant when you left Kotlina to come here a few days ago,
5 or you need to tell me when did you come here from Kotlina?
6 A. Can you please repeat your question. I really don't understand
8 Q. When you took a plane -- I want to know -- I wanted to find out
9 when did you take your plane to come here to The Hague on this occasion
10 of your testimony?
11 A. On this occasion I came to the Tribunal from Kotlina on Monday.
12 We got on the plane in Prishtina in the afternoon on the Monday and
13 arrived here in the evening at around 10.00 p.m.
14 Q. So that is three days ago, yeah?
15 A. Yes, approximately.
16 Q. What I want to know: Are the trees in and around Kotlina
17 carrying leaves at this point in time when you were leaving to go to
18 The Hague?
19 A. At this point in time they just started to come out. The first
20 chutes have come out. The spring came earlier this year, so i depends,
21 every time there might be a difference in a week or two when the first
22 chutes come out.
23 Q. Today is the 23rd of April, 2009. Can you tell me a month ago,
24 did the trees around Kotlina have leaves already?
25 A. No. It is impossible for the trees to have leaves on them
2 Q. Very briefly I want to address a few issues about the KLA. Can
3 you tell me how many people are living in Ivaja and how many people are
4 living in Kotlina. Just give me a number, please, if you can.
5 A. Ivaje is a bigger village compared to Kotline. It can have about
6 600 or 700 inhabitants. Kotline perhaps has about 500, but I do not know
7 the exact number.
8 Q. Yeah. In the statement which was put to you a moment ago, it was
9 suggested that 378 members of -- villagers of Ivaja were in the KLA in
10 1999. Could you confirm that this is correct, or is it not correct?
11 A. I didn't give these figures, so they are not correct in my
13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Neuner, we would point out that it was not the
14 evidence that there were 378 villagers; there were 378 members of the KLA
15 in the village as I understand it.
16 MR. NEUNER: Sorry then, I must have mis-phrased my question.
17 That's actually exactly what I wanted to ask.
18 Q. Sorry, I rephrase my question. It was confusing. What I meant
19 is: Could you confirm the figure given in the statement which was put to
20 you, that in 1999, 378 members of the Ivaja village were in the KLA?
21 JUDGE PARKER: That's not right either. You're still putting the
22 same thing. You are saying there was 378 people from the village who
23 were members of the KLA.
24 MR. NEUNER: That's how I understood the portion read out --
25 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber understands it quite differently, is
1 that in the village there were 378 members of the KLA present in the
2 village at that time, not from the village.
3 MR. NEUNER: Okay. Yeah. Then maybe -- because this witness
4 stated he wasn't there in Ivaja, I withdraw the question about Ivaja
6 Q. I would only come to Kotlina then, where it was put that at the
7 time of the events in March 1999 the statement said 350 KLA members were
8 in Kotlina. You, yourself, were present during the March events. Could
9 you confirm that indeed, as the statement alleges, 350 KLA members were
10 present as well?
11 A. This is not my statement. I do confirm that in my village where
12 I lived there were no people in KLA uniforms. There was only the
13 civilian population there.
14 Q. It was put a couple of times to you during cross that members of
15 your wider family were in the KLA because graves were shown which
16 contained UCK weapon on them. Could you tell me, you, yourself, have you
17 been in the KLA during the events of 1999?
18 A. No, I wasn't. I wasn't during the events, and I wasn't after the
20 Q. And in your direct family living with you in Kotlina in 1999, was
21 there any member who was -- any person who was member of the KLA in 1999?
22 I'm only referring to your direct family.
23 A. My immediate family, after the time I was in Kotlina, I was not
24 aware of any of them being a member of the KLA. However, I did find out
25 when I returned from Macedonia about this.
1 Q. You did find out about what?
2 A. Upon my return from Macedonia, when the bodies were reburied, I
3 participated in the reburial and saw that some of the bodies of the
4 victims from my village were withdrawn from there and taken to the
5 cemetery in Kacanik. There were reburial councils or committees
6 consisting of people who knew the victims, and they - the council
7 members - decided on the location where the victims would be buried. I
8 did not take part in this activity, and only after I returned from
9 Macedonia, I learned that the body of my brother was buried in the
10 cemetery in Kacanik.
11 Q. Two more questions relating to the attacks on the 9th and 24th of
12 March, 1999. On both dates, can you tell me were there any military
13 barracks of the KLA in Kacanik proper -- sorry, in Kotlina proper?
14 A. There was no barracks whatsoever in Kotline, and there were no
15 uniformed, KLA uniformed persons there.
16 Q. On both dates, the 9th and 24th of March, 1999, were there any
17 ammunition depots or logistical facilities of the KLA in Kotlina proper?
18 A. There was only civilian population in Kotline at this time.
19 Elderly, women, children, families who lived there.
20 Q. Thank you for answering my questions.
21 MR. NEUNER: The Prosecution has no further questions.
22 JUDGE PARKER: [Microphone not activated] That completes the --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
24 JUDGE PARKER: -- that will be asked of you. The Chamber is
25 grateful for the assistance you've been able to give and that you've been
1 prepared to come again to The Hague to give evidence. We would thank
2 you. You may now of course return to your normal activities, and the
3 officer of the court will show you out. Thank you indeed.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic, the report you had when you
7 questioned the witness concerning the crime investigation in the village,
8 is this a report that you would propose to be using with any future
9 witness in the trial, your witness or Prosecution witness?
10 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I will be using
11 that report, but obviously I'll have to use it with a witness who ...
12 JUDGE PARKER: In that event, I think that the report should be
13 marked for identification at this stage so that it is obvious from the
14 record later that you are using the same report when you talk to another
15 witness about it. Is it presently on e-court, that report?
16 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. There is an
17 English translation, and through another witness I'll be using it. I
18 could have done so today, but I thought that the witness denied it. It's
20 JUDGE PARKER: This will not become an exhibit at this point.
21 It's simply identified in the record with a number that will look like an
22 exhibit number, but it's merely marked for identification.
23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D00086 MFI, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE PARKER: We have run a little over time. We thank people
25 who've been here to support us for that delay. We now adjourn to
1 continue tomorrow at 9.00.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.01 p.m.,
3 to be reconvened on Friday, the 24th day of
4 April, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.