1 Friday, 24 April 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 MR. NEUNER: Good morning, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Neuner.
7 MR. NEUNER: The next witness is Sejdi Lami -- Sejdi Lama.
8 [The witness entered court]
9 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. Would you please read aloud the
10 affirmation on the card that is given to you now.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
12 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
13 WITNESS: SADA LAMA
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Please sit down.
16 Examination by Mr. Neuner:
17 Q. Good morning --
18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Neuner has some questions for you.
19 MR. NEUNER:
20 Q. Good morning, Witness.
21 A. Good morning.
22 Q. Could you spell your last name for the record, please.
23 A. I am Sada Lama, S-a-d-a L-a-m-a.
24 Q. And, Mr. Lama, you were born on the 8th of August, 1950?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And is it correct that you gave a statement to the Office of the
2 Prosecutor in mid-July 2000?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you also testified in the Milutinovic et al case on the 12th
5 of September, 2006?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And before you came here you had an opportunity to review both
8 your statement and you testimony?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And together do the statement and the transcript of testimony
11 truly and accurately reflect what you would have said if you would give
12 your testimony orally today before this Court?
13 A. Yes, I would say the same things today.
14 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, I'm referring to the statement. It's
15 65 ter number 2271 which I would seek to tender.
16 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00661, Your Honours.
18 MR. NEUNER: And also to the transcript which has 65 ter
19 number 5084.
20 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
21 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned P00662, Your Honours.
22 MR. NEUNER: I will read out a summary of this witness's
24 The witness is a male Kosovo Albanian Muslim from Vata village,
25 municipality of Kacanik. During the conflict in 1999 there was no
1 regular KLA presence in the village; however, about a week before the VJ
2 attack some 20 KLA soldiers stayed in a house in the village. They left
3 the place the day before the attack.
4 The witness saw on 13th of April, 1999, four Pragas and six
5 lorries transporting 100 soldiers from a VJ unit entering the village.
6 The population learned that soldiers had also surrounded the villages of
7 Slatina in the municipality of Kacanik
8 Pragas and hand-guns in the early morning, about 300 villagers left for
9 the mountains. The witness and his family left also and hid in a gorge.
10 Serb soldiers came who left in the afternoon when the shooting stopped.
11 With others the witness found the bodies of four men who were unarmed and
12 had been captured before. The bodies were brought to Vata. That day
13 seven more bodies were brought to the village from different locations in
14 the area. In the neighbourhood of Caka and Tifeku, most of the houses
15 were burned.
16 On 14 and 15 April the whole population of the village fled
17 towards Macedonia
18 soldiers who demanded money. They paid 500 German marks. The witness
19 returned on 17th of July, 1999, to Vata. His houses as well as other
20 houses in the village were looted. One of the 11 bodies which were
21 initially -- which was initially buried in the cemetery, Ramadan Xhokli,
22 was reburied in the KLA cemetery because he had been an active KLA
24 End of the summary.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
1 MR. NEUNER:
2 Q. Witness, I would just have a few questions, and I wanted to show
3 you your statement briefly. That's 65 ter --
4 JUDGE PARKER: That's P661.
5 MR. NEUNER: P661. Thank you, Your Honours.
6 And in the English version I would need to have page 3, the third
7 paragraph from the bottom; and in the Albanian version, please, page 8,
8 the second paragraph from the top.
9 Q. I hope you can read that. I see you have your glasses with you.
10 Just -- it has appeared in front of you on the left-hand side of the
11 screen, I believe.
12 MR. NEUNER: This -- the Albanian version should be page 8. Yes.
13 Q. Witness, if you could read the second paragraph which is in front
14 of you here on the screen. I hope you can read this. Are you able to
16 A. I can't make it out very well. Is it on the next page?
17 Q. I can also read it to you if this is helpful. I appear not to
18 have a hard copy here. Yeah, I will read it to you. You stated here on
19 the 7th -- on the 13th of April, 1999, "at 5.00 in the morning four
20 Pragas and six military lorries entered the village."
21 What I wanted to ask you: What was the colour of these military
23 A. The military lorries had the normal colour -- the dark colour. I
24 don't know how to describe it to you. It is -- it was -- they were
25 darker than the colour of the screen here.
1 Q. It's the second paragraph. I hope you can read now.
2 And why did you conclude that these were military lorries?
3 A. Because we saw them when they got off the lorries, I mean the
4 soldiers, and they came through the houses towards the mountain. We also
5 saw the lorries when they went back without the soldiers.
6 Q. Can you describe what the soldiers were wearing?
7 A. They had camouflage uniforms, brown and blue. There were also
8 some other ones wearing dark brown and black uniforms, camouflage, just
9 like the American army uniforms.
10 Q. Did you see any insignia?
11 A. I did not see them from close up. They were about 3 or
12 400 metres away. If we had been close up we would have been killed. We
13 could only see them from afar.
14 Q. And if you read further here in this paragraph you later on talk
15 that among these 100 soldiers there were certain persons wearing red and
16 black bandannas. And you say:
17 "And I believe they must have been paramilitaries."
18 Could you tell me what you meant by this.
19 A. Paramilitaries are reserve army or police. They had ribbons on
20 their heads, black and red, and they were Arkan's army.
21 Q. Apart from these ribbons red and black on their head, was there
22 anything else which you noticed on these gentlemen?
23 A. They had black or dark uniforms, different type -- different from
24 those of the army, but they were not civilian clothes. The uniforms were
25 some of them black, some of them camouflage, but these with the black
1 uniforms and the ribbons were more dangerous. Whether they were soldiers
2 or paramilitaries, I don't know.
3 Q. And why do you say they were more dangerous?
4 A. They were more dangerous because they shot at random, and they
5 killed you on the spot. They did whatever they wanted.
6 Q. But have you seen these people you describe as paramilitary as
7 engaging in such acts?
8 A. No, but that's what I believe. I did not ask them, I did not
9 speak to them.
10 Q. And did you see that the soldiers and these black paramilitary
11 persons were going together or separate once they were getting off the
12 six lorries?
13 A. They were together, together.
14 Q. And what did they do together?
15 A. They went towards the mountains looking for people. The four
16 Pragas stayed at one place, and they were shooting. We were -- the
17 Pragas were placed at big meadow, and they were shooting towards the
19 Q. Did you see anybody operating these Pragas?
20 A. No, I couldn't. I just could see them from afar. We were very
21 scared, you must understand.
22 Q. Let me ask you: Do you believe that Albanian villagers were
23 operating these Pragas on that day when they were firing?
24 A. No, the Serbs. The Serbs did all those things. The Albanians
25 did not operate such equipment, they did not have them.
1 Q. I want to show you a map. It's 65 ter number 615.08. And if you
2 can find on this map, could you please encircle where the village of
3 Vata, is where you were living and where also these Pragas were put and
4 the 100 people arrived, the 100 soldiers as you mentioned. We can also
5 enlarge it. You just need to tell us whether you wish to have it
7 A. Could you enlarge it a little bit because I cannot read the
8 smaller script.
9 Q. We can enlarge it further if you want. You need to tell us where
10 we have to enlarge it. Where is Vata in relation to Kacanik?
11 A. Yes, I can see Kacanik.
12 Q. And in relation to Kacanik where is Vata?
13 A. Vata is here, but I don't have a pen to mark it.
14 Q. Can you give the witness a pen, please.
15 A. Right here.
16 Q. Can you encircle that, please, because it's not a full circle.
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. And can you on the right-hand side of that circle mark a number
19 1, please.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. You marked it on the left-hand side. Thank you.
22 Can you now tell me where you found the four dead bodies later in
23 the day, and I'm referring to Mahmut Caka, Hebib Lama, Rraman Lama, and
24 Brahim Lama. Could you encircle the location where you found these four
1 A. These four men were found here on a hill.
2 Q. You've marked a big red dot to the left of the number 1, for the
3 record. Could you now on the left-hand side of that dot mark a number 2,
4 please, on the left-hand side.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. You've marked a number 2 below that dot, for the record.
7 A. Yes, number 2. I can't write very well with this pen.
8 Q. No problem. It's enough.
9 Could you tell us, that day -- the next day you were leaving
10 towards Macedonia
12 A. On the 15th of April we followed the Sharri road towards Tetove.
13 We went to Dragonac, Gllobocice, and Tetove. However, they did not allow
14 us to go through so we went back. On the 12th of April we went back
15 because the border was closed. On the 13th the offensive was launched.
16 On the 14th of April we went back to Macedonia
17 Q. And which way did you take to go to Macedonia, which border did
18 you cross?
19 A. Gllobocica.
20 Q. Could you mark, if you find it on the map, the location where you
21 crossed the border.
22 A. I can't see it very well. My eyes are not that good, you know,
23 I'm trying to find Gllobocica, Doganovic. Gllobocica is here.
24 Q. Could you encircle Gllobocica, please.
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. And mark a number 3 next to it, please.
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. Can you mark another number 3, nobody can read this. Maybe below
4 that circle or above that circle, that's maybe the best, above.
5 A. Here you mean.
6 Q. Yes. Thank you.
7 MR. NEUNER: Can I seek to tender that map, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, it will be received.
9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00663, Your Honours.
10 MR. NEUNER: The Prosecution has no further questions,
11 Your Honours.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Neuner.
13 Mr. Djurdjic, do you have cross-examination?
14 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have a
15 few questions.
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Djurdjic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Lama. My name is
18 Veljko Djurdjic, a member of the Defence team of the accused,
19 Vlastimir Djordjevic. I have with me Ms. O'Leary, also a member of our
20 team. I have a few questions for you, and let me tell you at the outset
21 you are the most honest and sincere witness I've heard so far. I have
22 very few questions in fact for you, just a few clarifications. I'd like
23 to start with a few images.
24 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we call up D002-5955.
25 Q. While we are waiting for these photographs, I read your statement
1 and I understood you to be saying that Dubrava is a large village and
2 that there is --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please repeat what there is
4 within the village.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Dubrava is a big village.
6 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. My question was whether Vata is within Dubrava.
8 A. Yes, it is within Dubrave. They are adjacent to each other.
9 Q. Thank you. And within Vata there is a hamlet Lama, hamlet Safa,
10 and hamlet Tifek?
11 A. Yes, the Lama, the Safa, and the Tifek neighbourhoods, they are
12 small neighbourhoods, but the whole area is called Vata comprising these
14 Q. Thank you. We call these hamlets. Mr. Lama, on this map we've
15 just seen where you drew the location of Vata, Dubrava is marked as a
16 different place. Is there a distance between Vata and Dubrava; and if
17 so, what is the distance?
18 A. There is no distance between them, they are adjacent to each
19 other. There are some villages called Dubrava and Vata, but these are
20 adjacent to each other. Some refer to them as Dubrave and some others as
22 Q. Thank you. Mr. Lama, do you recognise the location on this
24 A. I cannot see very well without my glasses. I'll try and have a
25 look at it with my glasses on.
1 Yes, I do recognise this photograph. This is the house of
2 Nebi Lami, or rather, the house of his son who was killed. This one, a
3 little bit further up, is of --
4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't get the name.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and further up are the houses in
6 Tifek neighbourhood. There's a road, and that's why I can recognise
7 these houses.
8 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Thank you. So this is the Tifek hamlet; right?
10 A. Yes, we can see the Tifek neighbourhood beyond these houses, but
11 if you can enlarge it, that would be better. The houses in the
12 foreground are the houses of the Lama family.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, should we tender
15 photographs one by one or tender them as a set?
16 JUDGE PARKER: How many do you have, Mr. Djurdjic?
17 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] There are more, there are several
18 sets of photographs with at least three in each. This is one document
19 within this set, and I have another, and a third.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Just one moment.
21 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
22 JUDGE PARKER: We will use one exhibit number for each of your
23 sets or groups of photos.
24 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Now I
25 would like to have photograph number 2, please.
1 Q. Mr. Lama, what can we see on this photograph?
2 A. On this photograph I can see very well the houses, and I can tell
3 you the names of the persons they belong to. This house here is the
4 house of Brahim Lami. This one here is the house of Rraman Lami. Next
5 to it is a stable. He was killed, massacred. This is the house of
6 Rraman's brother. This is my house. You can only see the roof of my
7 house. This here is the house of a relative of mine --
8 Q. [Previous translation continues]... you can, the roof of the
9 house. Can you encircle the house of your house.
10 A. [B/C/S interpretation] You can't see it very well from the trees.
11 Q. What you can see, encircle it. I note that the witness put a red
12 dot above the roof. What is the name of this hamlet, Mr. Lama?
13 A. [Albanian interpretation] This is the Lama hamlet.
14 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Next photograph,
15 please, number 3.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Because this is how marked, it must be tendered
18 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I would
19 like to tender it now.
20 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D00087, Your Honours.
21 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Lama, do you recognise this hill?
23 A. Yes, I do, very well. It is called Kodra e Keqe. Here up is the
24 road coming out from the asphalt road. The asphalt road is below here.
25 Q. Thank you. Is that a hill between Lama and Vata hamlets, between
1 Lama and the rest of Vata?
2 A. Between Lama and Vata there is a stream, but the ground is not
3 flat. This is the highest hill between the Vata and -- the Vatas and the
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Next image, please.
7 Q. Mr. Lama, which part of the village is this, what can we see
9 A. This is the same photograph as the one we saw previously. Here
10 is the asphalt road, below here -- here is a part of the woods that has
11 been cut off, and from this side here, this area is called Dubrava.
12 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you this: In your statement you say that
13 trenches were dug. Is there any of these photographs where you could
14 mark the location where the trenches were dug?
15 A. [B/C/S interpretation] It can't be seen here, there were no
16 trenches here.
17 Q. And on which photograph could we possibly see the trenches?
18 A. The first picture we saw.
19 Q. The first picture.
20 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we bring that picture up
22 THE WITNESS: [B/C/S interpretation] You can't see it very well,
23 but it's in that area.
24 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Could I ask you now, although you say it can't be seen very well,
1 just to mark where roughly the place was.
2 A. [Albanian interpretation] Here is my house, and they should be
3 here on this hill that is kind of visible here.
4 Q. Here, it was here --
5 A. At this line. There is a meadow here, and here there are trees.
6 It's right there.
7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Lama. Put an X where your house was and the
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. Thank you. And now above this upper line put number 2.
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. So 1 is your house, and 2 is where the trenches were.
13 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] May I tender the exhibit now.
14 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
15 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D00088, Your Honours.
16 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. May I now ask for the
17 photograph 4 to be shown. That's 4, but are there any more images? Can
18 we see 5. This is the same picture we've already seen.
19 THE WITNESS: [B/C/S interpretation] Yes, the same.
20 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Okay. It's the same. Next one,
21 please. It's the same picture. Thank you.
22 Since they are a repetition, there's no need for the witness to
23 give any more comments. Again, I'd like to tender them.
24 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
25 JUDGE PARKER: Images 3, 4, and 6 of this set have not been
1 exhibited, so they'll become the one exhibit number.
2 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned D00089, Your Honours.
3 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Can we
4 now call up D002-5966.
5 Q. Mr. Lama, what do we see here?
6 A. I see my place here, where I live. Here -- down here is the
7 asphalt road. Dubrava is on this side, Dubrava and Vata.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Witness motioning towards himself.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vata and Dubrava.
10 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Next photograph, please.
11 Q. Is this again your home village from a different angle?
12 A. I recognise this, but it's another Mahala.
13 Q. What's the name of this Mahala?
14 A. It's called Dugovi and Neziraj. It's near the asphalt road.
15 Q. And how far are these houses from yours?
16 A. Not more than half a kilometre.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Next photograph, please.
19 Q. Mr. Lama, what hamlet do we see here?
20 A. It's the same place, Dugovi.
21 Q. All right.
22 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we see the next photograph.
23 Q. Mr. Lama, what do we see now?
24 A. This is called Neziraj. This here is the asphalt road leading to
1 Q. Is this upper Vata?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] May I tender this document into
6 JUDGE PARKER: This image will be received.
7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D00090, Your Honours.
8 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I kindly ask you D002-5961.
9 Q. Mr. Lama, can you describe what you recognise here.
10 A. [Albanian interpretation] On this photograph I can see very well;
11 however, I'm not sure whether this one is Ilir Caka or Rraman Lami. They
12 were killed, and they were buried in the cemetery. I knew them very
13 well, and they were very close to my house.
14 Q. Which cemetery is this?
15 A. This is the civilian graveyard in the Lama village.
16 Q. Thank you. Is that part of the martyrs' cemetery?
17 A. In the left side are the civilian graves, and on the other side
18 there are seven or eight graves of people who were killed during the war.
19 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we see image number 2.
20 Q. Mr. Lama, could you comment on this photograph.
21 A. I can tell you the people by names whose graves these are. This
22 is Rraman's; this is Brahim's; this is Ilir Caka's. These graves are
23 only 200 metres far from my house.
24 Q. Thank you. On this mast, is this the Albanian flag flying?
25 Whose flag is it?
1 A. [B/C/S interpretation] It's the Albanian flag.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Next photo, please.
4 Q. Mr. Lama, what do we see on the tombstones? Who do they belong
6 A. [Albanian interpretation] It's Rraman's tombstone, Brahim's
7 tombstone; this one here is Ilir's tombstone; and here this is Hebib's,
8 it cannot be seen on the photograph. And three other graves do not have
9 completed tombstones.
10 Q. Thank you. Are there any symbols on the tombstones; and if there
11 are, could you please comment on them.
12 A. What kind of symbols, you mean flags or something else? I don't
13 understand what you mean by "symbols." All of them were civilians.
14 Q. Well, everything that you can see and recognise apart from the
15 photographs and the names.
16 A. [B/C/S interpretation] Yes, this is Rraman, this is Ilir Caka,
17 this is Brahim Lama -- well, I can hardly see it, but Rraman, I'm
18 100 per cent sure because I can recognise him on the stone. Hebib Lama
19 down there. And there are three or four people down there, Caka, Jakup,
20 and others.
21 Q. What else do you recognise?
22 A. Well, I recognise the stones and the names of the people.
23 Q. Do we see any symbols on the tombstones that are recognisable?
24 A. [Albanian interpretation] I don't see any symbols. There are no
25 symbols. This is Rraman here. There is a book here, it looks like a
1 book, because he was a pupil, Ilir Caka. The monument is in the form of
2 a book.
3 Q. What I want to ask you is this: You can see to the left of this
4 tombstone, next to the image, the face, there is something marked there,
5 engraved. Do you recognise what that is or not?
6 A. This is Rraman Lama, and you see the name and surname there.
7 This is Rraman, his picture, and his name, surname, the date when he fell
8 victim as well.
9 Q. But, Mr. Lama, to the right of the face do you see something
10 marked there, engraved there, from the level of the head down to where
11 the torso starts?
12 A. Right here you mean? Where are you asking? [B/C/S
13 interpretation] Here.
14 Q. So next to the image of the person to the right you can see that
15 there is something marked there, it's lighter than the background.
16 A. [Albanian interpretation] This one here?
17 Q. That's what I mean, yes.
18 A. [B/C/S interpretation] Well, I can't recognise it. It's just
19 some light reflection.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can I have the next photograph,
23 Q. Well, these are again photographs of the persons that we've
24 already seen. Can we move to the next photograph -- no. Okay.
25 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Then, Your Honours, I would like
1 to tender those photographs into evidence.
2 JUDGE PARKER: That set will be received.
3 THE REGISTRAR: D00091, Your Honours.
4 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Lama. You can take off your glasses. We won't
6 need you to look at the screen anymore.
7 Mr. Lama, we are now talking about March 1999. Who did you live
8 with in your household in March and April?
9 A. [Albanian Interpretation] I lived with my own children, my wife
10 and my children in my house.
11 Q. Thank you. And any other relatives, parents, brothers, cousins,
12 uncles, did you live together with them in a communal household, or did
13 you live apart?
14 A. Not in my house, no. I was with my family, my children.
15 Q. Thank you. Please tell me, the houses in the village, were the
16 yards walled off?
17 A. No, no. There are no walls.
18 Q. Thank you. And please tell me, how did they take the hunting
19 rifle from you?
20 A. [B/C/S interpretation] They took the hunting rifle -- well, I
21 forget now but it was two years before the war.
22 Q. And what kind of a rifle was it, do you remember?
23 A. Yes, I do remember, it was actually 1994.
24 Q. 1994, what kind of a rifle was it, do you know what make?
25 A. It was a hunting rifle used for hunting, if you know that.
1 Q. Yes, I do.
2 A. It was R-12.
3 Q. M-12.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
5 speak into the microphone because the interpreters can't hear him.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had all the papers for the rifle.
7 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Who gave you the documents?
9 A. The police.
10 Q. What police?
11 A. In Kacanik.
12 Q. In Kacanik. Thank you.
13 Mr. Lama, I just want to check if the years listed here are
14 correct. It says here that from 1975 until 1997, you lived in Germany
15 is that correct?
16 A. [Albanian interpretation] Yes, correct.
17 Q. And did you make any contributions to Bujar Bukoshi's government?
18 A. [Albanian Interpretation] No.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 Mr. Lama, before March 1999 did you hear about the KLA at all or
22 A. [Albanian interpretation] No.
23 Q. Thank you. And how did you know that other villagers were not in
24 the KLA?
25 A. In my village there were no members of the KLA.
1 Q. Very well. And why then those who dug the trenches, who were
2 members of the KLA, why were they doing that?
3 A. They dug the trenches for defence purposes because they feared
4 that there would be an attack, and they opened those trenches. The Serbs
5 also had trenches and bunkers.
6 Q. Thank you. Well, were those trenches used to defend the village?
7 A. [B/C/S interpretation] No.
8 Q. Thank you. You said that half of them were in uniform and half
9 of them were in civilian clothes. How do you know that?
10 A. [Albanian interpretation] Yes, because I saw them. They were
11 close to my house.
12 Q. Thank you. And do you know, can you tell me in paragraph 10 of
13 your statement you say --
14 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in order for you to
15 be able to follow, I marked each paragraph with a number. So when I say
16 that it's in paragraph 10, it's in paragraph 10 of all of the versions of
17 the statements, English, Albanian alike.
18 Q. Mr. Lama, in paragraph -- you say that one day before the 4th of
19 April [as interpreted] an order came to -- for the KLA to leave the
20 village. Who ordered that?
21 A. I did not see who gave the order, but we heard. There was word.
22 They told us that we had to leave our village because the Serbs were
24 Q. Thank you. And when did the KLA leave the village, at what time,
25 do you know that?
1 A. They left on the 12th, early in the morning.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic, I'm not sure that we have the same
3 statement. You have mentioned first a passage that says half of them
4 were in civilian clothes and half in uniform. I can't find that
5 anywhere. And then with your last lot of questions you said that
6 something happened on the 4th of April, and I can't find that anywhere in
7 the statement I have.
8 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I did not mention the 4th of
9 April, and let me tell you I may have made a mistake about this half and
10 half military/civilian. I do apologise. What I said about half and
11 half, what was confirmed, that's from Milosevic transcript, page 4401,
12 lines 7 and 8, there were 20 of them, but half wore uniforms and half
13 wore civilian clothes. I do apologise. It's in the Milosevic
14 transcript. Let me just ask it.
15 Q. Is this what I read out correct, Mr. Lama?
16 A. Yes, that's correct. I did say that.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't think that
19 we need to show the transcript now. Thank you.
20 Q. Mr. Lama, I may have made a mistake. So the day before, we're
21 talking about the 13th of April, not the 4th of April, so the day before
22 you say that they had left the village. Okay.
23 In paragraph 11 you say that on the 23rd of March you went to
24 Urosevac because you heard that Urosevac would be attacked. Who did you
25 hear that from and who was supposed to actually attack it?
1 A. Ferizaj would be attacked by the Serb army, and we were told to
2 go and get our family from Ferizaj. We took our tractors and drove back
3 together with the family to the village because we heard, as I said, that
4 the Serbs would attack. They were shooting all the time.
5 Q. Thank you. And were there not Serb forces in Urosevac even
6 before when you brought your family there?
7 A. [B/C/S interpretation] Yes, there were Serb forces in Urosevac.
8 [Albanian interpretation] Yes, there were Serb forces, but they didn't
9 kill the people at that time. People left towards the mountains.
10 However, they were beating them and doing every other evil thing to them.
11 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 12 you say that NATO launched the
12 air-strikes during the night. What do you know? What were the targets?
13 What did you see?
14 A. I saw at 8.00 p.m.
15 Picrrak. NATO would bomb during the night, and the Serbs would shell us
16 during the day. We were amongst two fires.
17 Q. Thank you. When you headed to Macedonia a week before the
18 13th of April, did you go across the Sar a mountain towards Tetovo,
19 towards Macedonia
20 A. We climbed the mountain to cross at Luboten, but because the snow
21 was very high and it was very cold, the children couldn't cope so we went
22 back home. On the 14th of April we left again by car and tractors to
23 Gllobocica by the main road. When we got there we were stopped. We had
24 some small children, they were sick, and I told one of the soldiers, the
25 Serbs, and I asked him, Can we leave the convoy, please, because the
1 children are ill. That soldier asked for a thousand Deutschemarks, and I
2 said, I don't have that money. And he then allowed us to go ahead. The
3 army was going before us. We followed them, and then at a turn they
4 allowed us to go by ourselves, but we had to give them money. I paid
5 500 Deutschemarks. There were three families with tractors that -- we
6 were allowed to cross.
7 Q. Thank you. I asked you about that occasion. One week before you
8 headed across the mountain. You didn't take the road to get to
10 A. A week earlier we tried to climb the mountain, but we went back
11 to the village because we couldn't -- because of the snow, we couldn't go
12 across. The offensive caught us in our houses, and then we went to the
13 mountain to hide.
14 Q. Thank you. And the others who didn't have small children went on
15 across the mountain and actually reached Macedonia; am I right?
16 A. The ones who did not have small children, I don't know. Whoever
17 was able to walk, they crossed the mountains; the ones that were not able
18 went back to the village. There were about 70 or 80 of them.
19 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 15 you mentioned a small forest called
20 Picrak, if I read it correctly, and you say -- Picrak, okay. And now I
21 would like to know how far this wooded area is away from the village of
23 A. It's next to it. Picrrak is next to Baince. Not even 500 metres
24 between them. Picrrak is a mountain, the Drzava mountain.
25 Q. Thank you. And how far was it from your village? I'm talking
1 about Baince.
2 A. You mean as the crow flies or by road? By road it's about
3 7 kilometres away. As the crow flies, I don't know, maybe 3 or
4 4 kilometres, not even that.
5 Q. Thank you. On the 13th of April you say -- well, 1999, you say
6 that you saw Pragas and soldiers. Where were you at 5.00 a.m.?
7 A. On the 13th of April we left home at about 5.00 in the morning.
8 We went up to a hill. The Pragas were stationed on the field or
9 meadow --
10 Q. [Previous translation continues]... the story short. I want to
11 know where you were at 5.00 a.m.
12 A. [B/C/S interpretation] I left the house at 5.00, and I headed
13 towards the woods.
14 Q. Thank you. Was it daylight at 5.00 a.m.?
15 A. No not yet. It was still a bit dark.
16 Q. Thank you. Now tell me, how far is Slatina from your village?
17 A. [Albanian interpretation] It's not too far from us, 2 kilometres
19 Q. Thank you. And how far is your village from Brod?
20 A. Brodi is a little bit further, 6 kilometres away. I'm not very
21 sure, but I'm calculating in my mind. It takes half an hour to walk
23 Q. Thank you. You stated that you had planned a shelter in the
24 gorge in case of an attack and that you had brought some food there, but
25 were there any plans to dig trenches around the village?
1 A. No. The whole village, the people of the village, went towards
2 the stream to hide because the army were shelling and shooting. There
3 was a plane flying over, observing. Later on during the night we would
4 go back to our homes. During the day we went to the stream; at night we
5 would be at home. We did not have any trenches or bunkers or things of
6 that sort.
7 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 22 you say that when the soldiers
8 entered the village we all went out of the houses and started walking
9 towards the Ljuboten mountain. Can you please tell me yes or no, is that
11 A. On the 13th of April?
12 Q. Yes. I'm reading from your statement, and I'm just asking you
13 whether this is correct or not. When the soldiers entered the village,
14 we all went out of the houses and started walking towards the Ljuboten
16 A. Yes, that's correct. Yes, we wanted to go and take shelter, but
17 this was to be safe, that's all.
18 Q. Thank you. You were not an eye-witness of the killing of the
19 four people by the path up there by the gorge; am I right?
20 A. [B/C/S interpretation] Yes, you're right.
21 Q. You were not an eye-witness of the death of the seven people from
22 other hamlets; am I right again?
23 A. [Albanian interpretation] Those seven that were killed, I know
24 about them. But about those four that were killed, I saw them because I
25 was about 200 metres away --
1 Q. Let's take this slowly. My question was: Am I right when I say
2 that you were not an eye-witness of the death of the seven people. So
3 did you see that? Were you an eye-witness of that incident or not?
4 That's the only thing I'm asking you.
5 A. Those four, yes; the other seven, no.
6 Q. So you saw how they were killed?
7 A. I was together with my wife. My wife was in the meadow. I was
8 down in the stream. I did not see them at the moment they were killed,
9 but I saw them lying there. My wife told me about their killing, and I
10 came out of that stream, and I said, Let them kill me as well. The army
11 was still there.
12 Q. Thank you. And do you agree with me that all those 11 people
13 were fit for military service?
14 A. Rraman was more than 50 years old. He was not able to serve the
15 KLA. Brahim was a student, 18 or 19 years old. One of his legs was
16 10 centimetres shorter, so he was not an able-bodied man that could serve
17 in the KLA. Brahim was also -- Hebib --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Correction.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- was not also an able-bodied man.
20 Nobody was able-bodied men --
21 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. So you don't agree with me?
23 A. [B/C/S interpretation] No, they were not fit to serve in the KLA.
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Lama, for answering my questions.
25 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you very much.
1 This completes my cross-examination.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Djurdjic.
3 Is there re-examination, Mr. Neuner?
4 MR. NEUNER: I have a very few questions, Your Honour, and maybe
5 I could address them after the break. I would streamline everything. I
6 think we're not talking about more than a few minutes.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We'll have, then, our first break. We
8 must have a break now, and after the break Mr. Neuner will have a few
9 questions for you. We will resume now at 11.00.
10 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
11 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Neuner.
13 Re-examination by Mr. Neuner:
14 Q. Good morning, Witness, again. You were asked by my learned
15 colleague about the KLA leaving Vata, and you responded the KLA left on
16 the 12th, early in the morning. I wanted to ask you in which month and
17 which year was the KLA leaving on the 12th Vata?
18 A. It was April, the fourth month of the year, the 12th of April.
19 Q. And which year, please.
20 A. 1999.
21 Q. And how did you find out that the KLA was leaving that morning?
22 A. When I woke up in the morning they were not there anymore.
23 Q. Meaning at the trenches or ...
24 A. Yes, they had left that place. I don't know where they went from
25 there. I did not ask them. They did not tell us.
1 Q. Then referring to the KLA trenches, I wanted to ask you when the
2 Serb forces in lorries, the about 100 men, came to Vata on the 13th of
3 April, were these trenches used to prevent them coming to the village?
4 A. No, they were not used to prevent the Serbs. The Serbs could not
5 be prevented. The Serbs took their own positions, and we had nothing to
6 do with them.
7 Q. Were the Serb forces who came to Vata on the 13th of April shot
8 at from the Albanian side?
9 A. No.
10 Q. You were referring to four persons, Mahmut Caka, Hebib Lami,
11 Rraman Lami, and Brahim Lami, who you had found somewhere in the
12 [indiscernible] dead on the 13th of April. Then you said to my learned
13 colleague a moment ago that you had seen them alive some 200 metres away.
14 Could you explain where was your position when you last saw them alive?
15 A. We were at a meadow close to a stream. The women and the
16 children were on the meadow, and they saw them when they were caught, and
17 they marched them up and down the village three or four times, and then
18 they killed Brahim, Hebib, and the others.
19 Q. Did you, yourself, see the four persons?
20 A. After they were killed I went there and saw them after they were
22 Q. What time of the day was it when you saw them?
23 A. It was 6.30 or maybe 7.00 in the morning.
24 Q. And when -- about what time did the women who were on the meadow
25 see the men last alive?
1 A. 6.00. We had left together with the women --
2 Q. Okay. I just wanted to know the time. Then you saw the bodies,
3 and they were transported to Vata. Can you tell me what clothes were the
4 bodies wearing?
5 A. Civilian clothes, normal clothes, track suit bottoms, jeans,
7 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.
8 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I think these questions were fit
9 for direct examination. I gave no cause for these questions in my cross.
10 MR. NEUNER: I can respond because you questioned that -- or you
11 put --
12 JUDGE PARKER: No, not "you." Address us.
13 MR. NEUNER: Excuse me. I wanted to put that the counsel has put
14 to this witness that the four persons were KLA members, and I'm trying to
15 establish their status as a possible combatant, Your Honours, by asking
16 about the clothes.
17 JUDGE PARKER: The questioning, Mr. Djurdjic, as far as it's gone
18 appears to be in order because you have raised the question whether they
19 may or may not have been combatants.
20 Please carry on, Mr. Neuner.
21 MR. NEUNER:
22 Q. Did you see or find any weapons on the bodies of the four men
23 which you transported with others to Vata?
24 A. They did not have anything at all.
25 Q. No weapons you mean?
1 A. They had absolutely no weapons on them.
2 Q. And then I'm asking about the seven other members who -- of the
3 Albanian side who were later that day brought also to Vata and who were
4 dead. Did you see any or find any weapons on them because you were also
5 involved in the burial I understand?
6 A. No.
7 Q. What clothes were these seven men wearing?
8 A. Civilian clothes, simple, normal clothes, normal shoes, jeans.
9 Q. Did they wear any uniforms from the KLA or KLA insignia?
10 A. Absolutely not.
11 Q. Then I have a few questions relating to the issue of NATO
12 air-strikes raised by my learned colleague. Can you tell me in April --
13 sorry, in March and April 1999, were there any NATO air-strikes launched
14 on Vata itself?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Were there any air-strikes launched on Dubrava itself in the
17 [overlapping speakers]... time-period?
18 A. No.
19 Q. So when you left on the 13th -- or after the 13th of April, 1999
20 did you leave because you were afraid of NATO air-strikes?
21 A. I feared the Serbs, not NATO. NATO intervened to help us, not to
22 exterminate us.
23 Q. You mentioned in your testimony that even a week before the 13th
24 of April you tried to leave Vata towards Ljuboten mountain. On that
25 occasion did you leave because of fear of NATO air-strikes?
1 A. I only feared the Serbs. In April NATO was -- NATO did not start
2 the air-strikes in April; they started on the 24th of March. And NATO
3 only targeted the positions, the tanks, and the bunkers of the Serb
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. NEUNER: The Prosecution has no further questions,
7 Your Honour.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lama, you'll be pleased to know that that
10 concludes the questions for you. The Chamber has been assisted by your
11 evidence and by your earlier statement that you've given. We would like
12 to thank you very much for being prepared to come to The Hague again.
13 You may now of course leave and go back to your normal affairs, and the
14 court officer will assist you out. Thank you, sir.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 [The witness withdrew]
17 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Nilsen.
18 MS. NILSEN: Yes, Your Honours. The next witness is
19 Mr. Isa Raka, who will testify pursuant to 92 bis.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
21 MS. NILSEN: When he is ready.
22 JUDGE PARKER: It would be obviously extremely convenient if this
23 witness could be concluded today, if both counsel would keep that in
25 [The witness entered court]
1 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. Would you please read aloud the
2 affirmation which is shown to you now.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
4 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
5 WITNESS: ISA RAKA
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Please sit down.
8 Ms. Nilsen has some questions for you.
9 MS. NILSEN: Thank you.
10 Examination by Ms. Nilsen:
11 Q. Good morning, Mr. Raka.
12 A. Good morning.
13 Q. Will you please state your full name and birth date for the
15 A. Isa Raka. I was born on the 17th of September, 1971.
16 Q. Mr. Raka, did you provide a statement to the Office of the
17 Prosecution in 1999?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And did you in September 2006 provide additional information and
20 give an amended version of your previous statement to the Office of the
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you have a chance to read through these statements before
24 coming to court today?
25 A. Yes.
1 MS. NILSEN: Your Honours, I seek to tender the Rule 89(F)
2 statement from the witness Isa Raka from 8th of September, 2006. That's
3 65 ter number 02301.
4 JUDGE PARKER: That will be received.
5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned P00664, Your Honours.
6 MS. NILSEN:
7 Q. And, Mr. Raka, did you also testify on the 19th of September,
8 2006, in the Milutinovic et al. case?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you have a chance to review the transcript together with a
11 language assistant before coming to court today?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Are you satisfied that the information you gave then in 2006 is
14 true and accurate to the best of your knowledge and belief, and would you
15 provide the same answers today?
16 A. Yes, it is accurate.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MS. NILSEN: And I would also like to seek, Your Honours, to
19 tender 65 ter 05087 which is the transcript of the testimony in the
20 Milutinovic et al. case.
21 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
22 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned P00665, Your Honours.
23 MS. NILSEN: Your Honours, I would also like to seek to tender
24 the exhibits that were associated with Mr. Raka's testimony last time,
25 which are two marked photographs. They were annotated by the witness in
1 his previous testimony. I will present for the witness also unmarked
2 versions of these photographs. But since he's testifying pursuant to
3 Rule 92 bis, I would like to tender these associated exhibits as well.
4 They are 65 ter number 05088 and 05089.
5 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received.
6 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 05088 will be assigned P00666; and
7 65 ter number 05089 will be assigned P00667, Your Honours.
8 MS. NILSEN: I would now like to read out the court summary for
9 the witness, and after that I have just a few questions for the witness.
10 The witness is a Kosovo Albanian Muslim from the town Kacanik.
11 The witness describes that from the beginning of March 1999 there was an
12 increase in police activity in his town. On the 27th of March, 1999
13 witness observed two military jeeps and a white Lada Niva vehicle driving
14 into the lime factory situated on the other side of the Lepence river
15 from his house. About 20 to 30 police officers and two officers wearing
16 VJ uniforms came out of the vehicles. The witness recognised the deputy
17 police commander in Kacanik giving orders to the others. The witness
18 observed the officers taking positions on the upper part of this factory,
19 carrying automatic rifles and mortars. They started shooting towards the
20 houses on the other side of the river and two guards of the factory were
21 later found dead. A bullet hit the witness's pregnant wife, and this
22 bullet went through her right hip.
23 On the 28th of March, 1999, the witness and a large group of
24 people started walking through the woods towards Macedonia. The witness
25 was in a group of 13 and 14 people who helped carry his wounded wife on a
1 stretcher. When they came to the Macedonian border it was blocked, and
2 about 700 people had to stay in the woods for two days. The witness and
3 his group managed to contact some locals who helped them eventually cross
4 the border to Macedonia
6 witness's wife subsequently died on the 5th of April, 1999, due to blood
8 This is the end of the summary.
9 Q. Mr. Raka, we know from your statement that around 10.00 on the
10 27th of March, 1999, you went to see your neighbour Jakup Jakupi whose
11 house was located up to the hills from yours and that you had a view to
12 the lime factory from this house; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. How far would you say you approximately were standing observing
15 these things happening outside the lime factory, from the window you were
16 standing in to the factory?
17 A. Approximately 100 metres as the crow flies, more or less
18 100 metres.
19 Q. These approximately 20 or 30 policemen that you saw parking
20 outside the factory, what were they doing after they parked their
21 vehicles? What did you observe they were doing exactly?
22 A. They got off their jeeps. The police, whom I recognised who was
23 in the white Lada Niva, started to give them instructions to direct them
24 to the places where they had to go.
25 Q. And this person who gave instruction, did you recognise this
2 A. Yes. From what I could observe he looked like Lubisha.
3 Q. And that would be, according to your knowledge ...
4 A. He was a policeman. Later on I learned that he was the deputy
5 commander of the police station in Kacanik. He lived in my neighbourhood
6 in an apartment.
7 Q. And after you saw this person gave this -- deputy commander gave
8 this order to the rest of the group, what did this group of officers and
9 soldiers do?
10 A. They started to crawl around the factory. And when they reached
11 the factory, they climbed the stairs.
12 Q. Did you see them taking up positions inside the factory?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you just describe briefly where you saw them taking up these
16 A. They climbed the stairs and appeared on the windows of the
17 factory building.
18 MS. NILSEN: If you could go to 65 ter number 02310, I would like
19 to zoom in on the first picture which is K022-3167 -- or 68 -- yeah,
20 exactly, this is the one.
21 Q. I would like you, Mr. Raka, to just describe what you see on this
22 picture and from where is it taken.
23 A. This photograph was taken from the position from where I was
24 observing, more or less 1 or 2 metres' difference from the place from
25 where I was observing.
1 Q. From your neighbour's place you mean?
2 A. Yes.
3 MS. NILSEN: And then if you could go to the next picture which
4 is K022-3167.
5 Q. This is the same lime factory from another angle; is that right,
6 Mr. Raka?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Would you be able to show us where you saw these people park
9 their cars and taking up positions in this picture?
10 A. They parked their vehicles somewhere here.
11 Q. Sorry, I've lost the connection with the picture.
12 I would like you, Mr. Raka, just to put a cross where you mean
13 they parked their vehicles, if you are able to mark that on the picture.
14 A. Here approximately. There were three jeeps parked around this
15 area, but they occupied a larger area obviously.
16 Q. Thank you. Could you just mark with a bigger cross so it's
17 easier for the Court to see.
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. Thank you.
20 And then I just would like you to mark where you observed the
21 forces taking up positions inside the building.
22 A. The police positions were here, at these windows here. One of
23 the jeeps went down to the factory and then returned, and then those men
24 from that jeep took positions up here.
25 Q. And can I just ask you, is this the highest building in the town
1 as far as you know?
2 A. Yes, more or less.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MS. NILSEN: I would like to tender this picture.
5 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
6 MS. NILSEN: Thank you.
7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned P00668, Your Honours.
8 MS. NILSEN: And could we then have the last picture of the same
9 exhibit zoomed in which is K0223169, I believe. Thank you.
10 Q. And if you could please, Mr. Raka, just point out to us with a
11 number 1 the house where you were staying and observing these things
12 happened outside and inside the lime fabric, the house of your neighbour,
13 that's number 1.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. And then I would like you to put number 2 next to a house that
16 you owned or that you lived together with your wife that's deceased.
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. Thank you.
19 You provided to the Office of the Prosecution these pictures when
20 you testified in 2006; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you take them yourself?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you remember approximately when you took this picture?
25 A. I don't know exactly.
1 Q. [Previous translation continues]...
2 A. I think it was in 2002. 2002, sometime in 2002.
3 Q. Okay. Thank you. And the other pictures that we looked at that
4 you took them from the house that you were staying, a neighbour house,
5 but which position is this picture taken from?
6 A. This was taken from the balcony of the factory.
7 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that in the beginning of April your
8 wife died at a hospital in Macedonia
9 that she got when she was shot?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MS. NILSEN: Then I have no further confession for the
13 examination-in-chief. Thank you, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Ms. Nilsen.
15 MS. NILSEN: We would also like to seek to tender this picture.
17 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
18 MS. NILSEN: Thank you.
19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned P00669, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.
21 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Let this photograph
22 remain on the screen, please.
23 Cross-examination by Mr. Djurdjic:
24 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Raka. I'm attorney
25 Veljko Djurdjic, member of the Defence team of the accused,
1 Vlastimir Djordjevic; and with me is Marie O'Leary, a member of our team.
2 I have a few questions for you. If something is unclear in my questions,
3 please say so and I will try to rephrase. What struck me is that it says
4 here that you gave the first statement between the 12th and the 26th of
5 November, 1999; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So you gave your statement over a period of 14 days to a
8 representative of the OTP?
9 A. No, that's not correct.
10 Q. Thank you. So what is correct then?
11 A. I gave my first statement in 1999. Several days later they came
12 again to make some amendments.
13 Q. Thank you. As I read your statement I didn't understand whether
14 you actually were employed at any point in your life.
15 A. I worked in 1990. I was employed for six months in a firm.
16 Q. Thank you. And when we're talking about the firm, this factory,
17 is this the lime factory? What did this factory produce?
18 A. It produced lime.
19 Q. Thank you. Was this a state-owned factory?
20 A. I don't know. Maybe it was at the time. I know that there were
21 people working there before that time because during this period, for
22 some time the employees did not go to work.
23 Q. Thank you. And there was security in the factory at that time,
24 in March 1999?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you. And your brother, did he work in the municipality in
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What was his name?
5 A. Gezim.
6 Q. Were there other Albanians working in the municipality of
8 A. I don't know. He worked as a guard there.
9 Q. Thank you. And on the 27th of March, in the afternoon, did you
10 hear that the police station in Kacanik was attacked?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. Thank you. And do you know where the village of Bob
13 A. Based on this photograph, it's on the other side of the factory.
14 Q. Now I see the photographs. Are you referring to the photographs
16 A. [Previous translation continues]... 23168.
17 Q. Thank you. Well, is it behind the hill, that village, or can we
18 see it on the photograph?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you. Could you please explain "yes." So can we see the
21 village, or is it behind the hill so we can't see it? Which is it?
22 A. The houses right behind the factory are the houses of Bob
24 Q. Thank you. So you had a very good view of the village of Bob
25 Well, were you able to see or hear any gun-fire in the village of Bob
1 the 27th of March in the afternoon?
2 A. No, there wasn't any gun-fire.
3 Q. Thank you. And from that hill to your house, how far is it?
4 A. As the crow flies or by road?
5 Q. As the crow flies.
6 A. Two-hundred metres possibly, more or less.
7 Q. Thank you. I had information that around 1800 hours on the
8 27th of March an attack was launched from the factory on a military
9 column that was in the village of Bob
11 A. No, I didn't hear about that.
12 Q. Thank you. We have this photograph 223618 in front of us, and
13 having read your statements I concluded - and this is what you
14 confirmed - that you took those photographs in 2002. But were you
15 standing on the staircase when you took this first photograph, 68, the
16 one in the upper left-hand corner, were you standing on the staircase
17 when you took this photograph?
18 A. Yes, in my neighbour's yard on the staircase a little bit lower
19 from the position from where I was observing.
20 Q. Further down or further up?
21 A. Lower. I was further up, but the photograph was taken from a
22 position further down.
23 Q. Thank you. In your statement you note that you were in the
24 basement of your neighbour's house and that you looked through the
1 A. This part here in the photograph on the second row is the
3 Q. So this photograph that we looked at a little while ago was not
4 taken from the location where you were on the 27th of March, 1999
6 A. Which photograph are you referring to?
7 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please go back to the
8 photographs. So K002-3168.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I took this photograph from the
10 staircase of my neighbour's yard but not from the position from where I
11 was observing. The position I took the photograph from is a little bit
13 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Raka.
15 Mr. Raka, in paragraph 14 of your statement, the one from 2006,
16 in the second sentence it says:
17 "The police officers lined up, got down on the ground, and
18 started crawling around the factory."
19 Is that correct?
20 A. Can you ask the question again, please.
21 Q. Let me read a portion of your statement, that's paragraph 14,
22 second sentence.
23 "The police officers lined up, got down on the ground, and
24 started crawling around the factory."
25 And now I'm asking you is that correct?
1 A. Some of them were crawling, some of them were walking low, but
2 some of them were definitely crawling.
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Raka. Am I right when I say that you were not an
4 eye-witness of the death of Halil Nikoci and Shefket Demi who were guards
5 in the factory?
6 A. No, I didn't, but I know that they were killed at the factory.
7 Q. Thank you. Now, in the 2006 statement you say that you heard
8 about it the next day from Halil's son. And in the statement that you
9 gave in 1999 you say:
10 "I know that their bodies were lying at the factory for a long
11 time, and dogs ate them."
12 A. I gave the statement after the war, and this was on the basis of
13 the information I had, and the information that I had was that their
14 bodies had been mauled by dogs, stray dogs.
15 Q. Thank you. Am I right when I say that you did not see, yourself,
16 the killing of Jonuz, who you mention in paragraph 18?
17 A. No, I didn't. However, I know that he was killed on the road
18 close to my neighbour's house.
19 Q. Thank you. And tell me, you also did not see the killing of an
20 old man whom you mention in paragraph 19?
21 A. I didn't. I only heard from his son that he had left his father
22 at home killed by bullets. When we were going to Macedonia, I learned
23 that information then.
24 Q. Thank you. You were not there in your house, in your yard, when
25 your wife was wounded; am I right?
1 A. I was in the basement of my neighbour.
2 Q. Thank you. And just one more thing, Mr. Raka. In your
3 statement, the statement that you gave in 1999, there is no mention of
4 what I'm about to read from paragraph 22 of your 2006 statement.
5 "On the 28th of March, 1999, we saw people from the other end of
6 Kacanik pass through our area. They told us that the police had taken
7 away Sefedin Beqa's two sons and that Hamid Berisha had been killed.
8 They told us that the police was going from house to house in the
9 neighbourhood around Ramadan Agushi. Those people left their homes and
10 were leaving town. My family and all our neighbours then decided to
11 leave before the police came."
12 So what I've just read to you is not contained anywhere in your
13 1999 statement; do you agree with me?
14 A. I only know that when people came towards our neighbourhood, they
15 told us that the police had been expelling people. They told us also
16 that Hamid Berisha had been killed.
17 Q. Mr. Raka, I read out to you what is contained in your
18 2006 statement. Please listen to me carefully. There is no word of this
19 quote in your 1999 statement, the one that you gave in November 1999.
20 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have it on the
21 screen. So this is Defence document D002-6001.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said earlier, we made
23 amendments to the 1999 statement.
24 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Thank you. But how could you change something that you didn't
2 A. Nothing was changed.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
5 tender the November 1999 statement made by this witness into evidence.
6 JUDGE PARKER: We haven't yet seen this document, and it hasn't
7 been put to the witness. Are you wanting him to confirm that there is no
8 reference in it to the subject matter of paragraph 22 of the statement in
9 2006? Is that the point? Perhaps he might be able to look at the
10 earlier statement and confirm that.
11 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, that's
12 precisely what I'm trying to do. If I may assist you, it should be --
13 let me give you the exact reference in the statement -- yes, that's at
14 page 4: "On the 28th of March." In English that would be this part of
15 the statement, it's page 6: "On the 28th of March we started
16 walking ..."
17 And in Albanian that would be -- just a moment. It is easy to
18 find it because it begins with a date -- well, here it is, yes, that's
19 page 9 of the Albanian version.
20 Q. Mr. Raka, can you see this part where it says "Me 28th of March"?
21 Would you please read it.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Mr. Raka, do you agree that there is no mention of what I quoted
24 a little while ago?
25 A. Which things do you mean?
1 Q. Let me clear this up to you. In this statement, the one that you
2 gave in 1999, the paragraph begins with the words:
3 "On 28th of March we started walking through the woods towards
5 And in paragraph 22 you have all those things that I read out to
7 "On the 28th of March, 1999, we saw people from the other end of
8 Kacanik passing through the woods ..." and so on and so forth. So what I
9 read out to you. And none of it is in your 1999 statement; do you agree
10 with me when I say that?
11 A. The first sentence says it very clearly. My wife had to stay at
12 home for two days, and it includes those other things that you mentioned.
13 Q. Well, Mr. Raka, please listen to what I'm saying. Your wife is
14 not at issue here. I'm just saying that in your 1999 statement, what I
15 read out to you does not contain the things that you said in 2006. And
16 if you want me to quote to you again from paragraph 22 - but I don't
17 think it's necessary - and to compare it to what you said in 1999.
18 A. I mentioned Sefedin's son's case because this is what people from
19 the neighbourhood told us and that was the reason why we decided to
21 Q. That's what it says in paragraph 22 of your 2006 statement, and
22 I'm now showing you your statement from 1999 where it says:
23 "On the 28th of March we started walking through the woods
24 towards Macedonia
25 So all those things that are contained in paragraph 22 that I
1 just read out to you are not contained in the part of your previous
2 statement when you talk about your trip to Macedonia.
3 A. They were not included because the statement was shortened at the
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can I please tender
7 this into evidence.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Raka, I take it that you agree that you made
9 this statement in 1999, the earlier statement, you made that statement,
10 did you?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
13 It will be received.
14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned D00092, Your Honours.
15 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Sir, Mr. Raka, just one more thing. My assistant has just drawn
17 my attention to this. Is it true that this gentleman, Jonuz, was
18 transferred from Kacanik to Pristina after he was wounded?
19 A. I don't know. According to the information from the person from
20 the infirmary in Kacanik, they took him, but I only know that they took
21 him to the infirmary building. After that I don't know, I'm not aware.
22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Raka, for answering all my questions.
23 MR. DJURDJIC: Thank you, Your Honours, I have no further
24 questions for Mr. Raka.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Djurdjic.
1 Ms. Nilsen, is there any re-examination?
2 MS. NILSEN: No. Thank you, Your Honours, no re-examination from
3 Prosecution. Thanks.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Raka, we want to thank you very much for
6 coming and being able to assist us with your recollection of these
7 events. We now have your evidence that you've given today, and of course
8 your two previous statements and the evidence that you gave when you came
9 here last time. And we'll be studying that in due course. We thank you
10 for being prepared to come and assist us again, and you now are free to
11 return to your normal activities. The court officer will show you from
12 the courtroom. Thank you.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Nilsen, do we understand that that concludes
16 the witnesses that are available at the present time?
17 MS. NILSEN: Yes, Your Honours, that's correct. The Prosecution
18 do not have any witness available for testifying today. That concludes
19 the witnesses that we have scheduled for today.
20 JUDGE PARKER: So the replacement witnesses will be available to
21 commence on Monday of next week?
22 MS. NILSEN: That's correct, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE PARKER: And I gather there will now be four witnesses next
24 week ?
25 MS. NILSEN: I think it will, but I am not hundred per cent sure.
1 I am looking at my colleague, Mr. Neuner, maybe he would be able to --
2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic seems to know more about your case
3 than you do. He says there will be four.
4 MS. NILSEN: I think it is correct. I think it is correct,
5 Your Honour. Thank you.
6 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my learned friend
7 Mr. Stamp informed us yesterday about the sequence of witnesses and the
8 schedule for the following weeks and the Defence is fully apprised.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
10 Well, in that case we shall adjourn now to resume on Monday to
11 continue with the evidence.
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.09 p.m.
13 to be reconvened on Monday, the 27th day of
14 April, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.