1 Wednesday, 29 April 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.
5 MR. NEUNER: Good morning, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Neuner.
7 MR. NEUNER: Maybe before the witness comes to the courtroom, the
8 next witness is Mr. Abdylhaqim Shaqiri, I wanted to make an application
9 to add certain items to our exhibit list if this is possible.
10 JUDGE PARKER: It's possible for you to make application.
11 MR. NEUNER: Yeah. And I'm referring here to two items, first
12 pictures, 18 pictures which have been provided by this witness on
13 occasion of his last testimony. During the proofing session the witness
14 came and brought certain items. This was in 2006. And the second item
15 I'm referring to is videotape which was also brought to the Office of the
16 Prosecutor on occasion of the last proofing, and I'm referring again to
17 the proofing in 2006. What has happened was that the material had been
18 provided late, meaning shortly before the witness's testimony, to the
19 Office of the Prosecutor. The videotape is two hours long, and there was
20 no chance to review the video before the witness testified in the
21 Milutinovic case. The Defence in the Milutinovic case had been also
22 informed about that fact, that there were reasons of time constraints.
23 The Office of the Prosecutor disclosed both items in -- on the
24 11th of December, 2007, to the Defence in the Djordjevic case. So our
25 application is it had been in the possession for more than one year and
1 five months, and we have also informed on Monday this week when this
2 witness came and told us again about the videotape the Defence of
3 Mr. Djordjevic about the fact that we are intending to use this videotape
4 and a few pictures.
5 Yeah, this will be my application, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Your explanation for it not having been on the
7 list or each of these items?
8 MR. NEUNER: I can say that the videotape was reviewed only
9 following Monday since the witness told us that there is certain items on
10 the videotape. And we informed the Defence before even having reviewed
11 the tape about -- that we are seeking eventually to use it, and now
12 having reviewed it in its entirety, we also prepared certain stills out
13 of the video. We would like to use that video, Your Honours. We also
14 made another copy for the Defence --
15 JUDGE PARKER: The point I'm asking is your explanation for not
16 having put this on your list before the commencement of this trial.
17 MR. NEUNER: Before the commencement of this trial, I can only
18 say it has not been reviewed until then. It was, so to speak, some kind
19 of a mission which I'm trying to rectify. And we believe that we have at
20 least given appropriate notice to the Defence. As I stated, the Defence
21 is in no way surprised about this item which has been disclosed in
22 December 2007 already, Your Honours. We don't see any unfairness. We
23 admit that we could have put it on our list earlier.
24 JUDGE PARKER: The other material issue for us is what is the
25 significance of these items? How material is it in the case?
1 MR. NEUNER: I can explain that, Your Honours. The video is --
2 and your -- the witness will explain that if I'm eventually allowed to
3 use it. The video was taken after the return of the witness from
5 as destruction of the mosque. This witness is an imam and, yeah, there's
6 a sequence of about a minute duration which we have identified showing
7 exactly - and it's a 360-degree view of the destruction of the mosque -
8 how it was when the witness returned. So it goes to destruction of
9 cultural property on the one side, as well as damage and destruction of
10 buildings which is charged as part of Count 5 in the indictment.
11 JUDGE PARKER: The video, then, is merely supporting the oral
12 evidence that the witness will give?
13 MR. NEUNER: Yes, Your Honours. There was an issue that this
14 witness is the only witness coming from that particular village,
15 Prilepnica, in the Milutinovic trial, and we don't have any other witness
16 coming here during this trial to corroborate, so to speak, the witness's
17 oral account. And in the Prosecution's view, this video could be taken
18 as at least partially confirming the witness's account.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Now, what about the photographs?
20 MR. NEUNER: The photographs relate to the same issue of
21 destruction, and we have selected -- there are two photographs relating
22 again to the mosque.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
24 Mr. Djurdjic.
25 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I strenuously object
1 to the admission of this evidence, to the adding of this evidence to the
2 list of the Prosecution for two reasons. You have already clarified the
3 first reason. Namely, before Monday or whatever day this week the OTP
4 did not even hint at this possibility. I would like to say that in the
5 notification of the 28th of August, it is stated that the witness had
6 brought certain video footage, but I would like to say immediately that
7 it is in issue what exactly this footage is. A Danish film is mentioned
8 but also home video taken by some villager, and the witness was not an
9 eye-witness to the damaging of the mosque. We have here an expert coming
10 to testify to the circumstances of damage inflicted to religious
11 buildings, and the photographs had been -- have been known to the
12 Prosecution for a long time. The witness brought them in 2006, and these
13 photographs were not taken by the witness but by a third person. That is
14 why I object to the admission.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Did you mean to say at line 6 the 28th of August
16 or the 28th of April, that notification was given?
17 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I was talking about the 28th of
18 August, 2006, when the Defence team in Milutinovic was notified, and we
19 got an overview of supplemental information in April, on the 28th of
21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber is of the view, Mr. Neuner, that it
24 would be not a proper exercise of its discretion to allow this additional
25 evidence, in view of the long neglect of it in the preparation of the
1 Prosecution case. So we uphold Mr. Djurdjic's submission.
2 If the witness is ready.
3 [The witness entered court]
4 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. Would you please read aloud the
5 affirmation which is now shown to you.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
7 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
8 WITNESS: ABDYLHAQIM SHAQIRI
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Please sit down.
11 Mr. Neuner has some questions for you.
12 Examination by Mr. Neuner:
13 Q. Good morning.
14 A. Good morning.
15 Q. What is your name and date of birth?
16 A. Abdylhaqim Shaqiri. I was born on the 6th of March, 1949.
17 Q. And, Mr. Shaqiri, what is your occupation, and where do you live?
18 A. I am imam, and I live in Prilepnica.
19 Q. Is it correct that in September 2006 you testified in the
20 Milutinovic et al. case?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you had an opportunity before coming here today to review
23 your transcript?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And does this transcript of testimony truly and accurately
1 reflect what you would say if you gave your evidence orally today in
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, I'm referring to 65 ter number 5073
5 and would seek to tender this into evidence, please.
6 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned P00729, Your Honours.
8 MR. NEUNER: I'm reading out a summary of this witness's
10 The witness, an Albanian male, is an imam in the village of
11 Prilepnica in the municipality of Gnjilane
12 heard gun-fire in Prilepnica and saw soldiers with two civilians held at
13 gunpoint. The soldiers claimed to look for KLA members and ordered him
14 to make an announcement over the loud-speakers of the mosque that all
15 villagers should leave the village until noon the next day. The witness
16 complied. The witness saw soldiers seizing money, property,
17 identification documents, and vehicles.
18 About 3.000 people left Prilepnica in the direction of Gnjilane.
19 En route they had to pass through several check-points manned by Serb
20 military and police. They were followed by police from one such
21 check-point, who told them they had to return and nothing would happen to
22 them. When they returned to Prilepnica the following day, one house was
23 burned and many damaged.
24 On 13 of April, 1999, the villagers of Prilepnica were again
25 ordered by soldiers to leave. The following morning the village was
1 surrounded by tanks, armoured vehicles, and five times as many soldiers
2 as on 6 April 1999
3 and were escorted out of the village. The size of the convoy increased
4 as it was joined by people from other villages. Some of the villages
5 they passed through were empty and houses were burning. Again, they had
6 to pass through check-points where they were abused and at one stage had
7 to pay money to be able to pass safely to Tetovo and Macedonia.
8 End of the summary.
9 Your Honours, I would seek to tender the documents associated
10 with the transcript I have just tendered because they were all discussed
11 at length in the Milutinovic case. Could I seek to tender 65 ter
12 number 5074?
13 JUDGE PARKER: Well, what is that?
14 MR. NEUNER: That is an in-court exhibit used in the Milutinovic
15 case and annotated by the witness, a map with some markings, and it's all
16 explained in the transcript, Your Honours, as I mentioned.
17 JUDGE PARKER: It just helps us to recall which of these
18 particular documents you're referring to, if you can give --
19 MR. NEUNER: I will do so.
20 JUDGE PARKER: -- a quick verbal description rather than merely
21 the 65 ter number.
22 MR. NEUNER: I will do so, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE PARKER: That will be received.
24 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned P00730, Your Honours.
25 MR. NEUNER: The next proposed exhibit is 5075, it's again an
1 in-court exhibit in the Milutinovic case, again a map marked by the
2 witness Shaqiri in court.
3 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned P00731, Your Honours.
5 MR. NEUNER: 5076 is the next exhibit. It's again an in-court
6 exhibit, a map annotated by this witness.
7 JUDGE PARKER: It, too, will be received.
8 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned P00732, Your Honours.
9 MR. NEUNER: And I have then map 5077, again and an in-court
10 exhibit marked by this witness former P24 in the Milutinovic case.
11 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned P00733, Your Honours.
13 MR. NEUNER: And this being said, the Prosecution has to further
14 questions, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Neuner.
16 Mr. Djurdjic.
17 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have
18 few questions for Mr. Shaqiri.
19 Cross-examination by Mr. Djurdjic:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Shaqiri.
21 A. Good morning.
22 Q. [Previous translation continues]... Veljko Djurdjic, I'm a
23 member of the Defence team. I'm Veljko Djurdjic, member of the Defence
24 team for the accused, Vlastimir Djordjevic. I'm assisted by
25 Ms. Marie O'Leary, member of our team as well, and I'd only like to hear
1 from you a few clarifications. In 1999 who were the members of your
3 A. In 1999, if you're referring to the 6th of April, I lived with my
4 mother, my brothers, myself, and I had some refugees staying in our
5 house, refugees from Drenica.
6 Q. Thank you. In the tradition of the Muslim Albanian population in
7 the country-side, is it customary for a house to be surrounded by a wall?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. Did your own family estate have a wall around it?
10 A. My house, my private house in the village doesn't have a wall;
11 one part has, another doesn't. But where I was staying, at my mother's
12 place, the house was walled off.
13 Q. Thank you. In your statement I read that you were a teacher of
14 the Albanian language for 23 years; is that correct?
15 A. [B/C/S interpretation] Yes, a teacher of Albanian.
16 Q. Did you work in a school?
17 A. Yes, for 23 years.
18 Q. Thank you. And if I added up the years correctly, you became
19 imam in 1996?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Mr. Shaqiri, when did you first hear of the existence of the KLA?
22 A. [Albanian interpretation] I think it was on the 28th of November,
23 1998, if I'm not mistaken at the funeral ceremony of a teacher. That's
24 when for the first time the KLA publicly appeared in Drenica. I learned
25 about this through the media, through television.
1 Q. Thank you. Am I right in saying that you have no real knowledge
2 about the KLA?
3 A. Yes, you're right.
4 Q. Thank you. I'd also like to know, how do you know that there
5 were no members of the KLA in your village in March 1999?
6 A. Not only in my village, but in the whole area known as
7 Ana e Moraves, I never came across a KLA member, and I never heard from
8 anyone that there was a KLA presence there.
9 Q. But the fact that you never heard of them and do not know of any
10 does not mean necessarily that there weren't any; right?
11 A. I am imam, person who visited different villages on a religious
12 duty, and nobody ever said to me that there was a KLA presence in our
13 area, in Ana e Moraves, except for in Drenica. This part here, where we
14 were, was free of KLA presence.
15 Q. Thank you. I have just three more questions for you. They
16 relate to the transcript of your testimony in the Milosevic trial. I'll
17 give a reference and tell you what it's about. The first question
18 concerns page 2779, lines 4 through 11, of the transcript in Milosevic,
19 now it's Exhibit - just a moment - P729 --
20 JUDGE PARKER: Do you mean the Milutinovic trial? You said
22 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Milutinovic I meant.
24 Q. This passage concerns your conversation with the officer
25 nicknamed Rus. You said:
1 "I heard the other officers call him 'Russian.' He wasn't
2 Russian by ethnicity; it was just his nickname. I asked him not to make
3 us leave the village because the population was mostly unemployed, and
4 they were bound to their own houses. I told him we had never had any
5 problems in the past, and here is what he told me: 'I see that you are
6 an honourable man. The order has come from Belgrade. People have to be
7 transferred from Prilepnica.'"
8 Mr. Shaqiri, until the Milutinovic trial you never mentioned in
9 any of the statements this part, that the orders had come from Belgrade
10 that people be transferred from Prilepnica.
11 A. I was asked to explain in detail the conversation I had with the
12 Serb army officer nicknamed Rus or Russian, and I did explain in detail
13 this conversation and what you just read out depicts exactly what he told
14 me. Some things are very hard to be forgotten.
15 Q. Mr. Shaqiri, in the statement you gave on the 25th of April,
16 1999, regarding this exchange, in paragraph 22 you say:
17 "The commander asked me if I was an imam. I said yes."
18 In paragraph 23, in English it's page 3, paragraph 3 from the
19 top, you said:
20 "He said, Look what's going on here. We received information
21 that this village would be bombed by NATO, and we'll prevent it by all
22 possible means. I am a commander and it is my duty" -- I apologise to
23 the interpreters.
24 "I am commander, and it is my duty to lay mines on all the roads
25 in this village as well as all the surrounding hills. Therefore, you
1 must leave the village within two hours because it is dangerous here."
2 Mr. Shaqiri, that's your statement of the 25th of April, and this
3 part about orders coming from Belgrade
4 is nowhere to be found. This exchange, by the way, relates to the 6th of
6 A. Just a moment, please. We're talking about two officers. You
7 think that there is only one. The Russian is one officer and what you
8 just read is a conversation that I had with the second officer. So we
9 are talking about two different persons here.
10 Q. Mr. Shaqiri, you have to believe me if I say that this Russian is
11 not mentioned anywhere in the statement of the 25th of April, but it
12 doesn't matter which officer it is, the first, second, or third. This
13 statement about orders coming from Belgrade is nowhere to be found.
14 That's the point I'm trying to make.
15 A. It is possible that I didn't mention -- when I did give my
16 statement, I quoted the conversation I had with the officers in that
17 group, and the Russian is another officer with whom I spoke in private.
18 And that's why it is possible that I failed to mention him, or maybe I
19 wasn't asked about that.
20 Q. Thank you. I'd like to show you another -- read to you another
21 passage from the transcript.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic, you are referring to a statement of
23 the witness which we don't have. We have the transcript but not the
24 statement. Now, is this a document that is in e-court?
25 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I apologise.
1 This will be the Defence document D -- just a moment. Let me look it up.
2 I apologise. D003-0001. This is a statement of 25th of April, 1999.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, and it's --
4 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, can you hear me?
5 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
6 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] All right, because I can't hear
8 Q. Mr. Shaqiri, will you believe me when I say that you did not
9 mention this, either in your 2001 statement or in your 2002 statement?
10 A. Now I really don't remember.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please have on the
13 screens D003-0016.
14 Q. Mr. Shaqiri, in this statement which is somewhat briefer,
15 shorter, you never mentioned -- never mention any conversation with an
16 officer and this reference of the order having been sent from Belgrade
17 Can you see that statement before you?
18 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I would like to ask
19 the court officer whether he's heard the number for the second statement.
20 The second statement is D003-0016. Oh, I see, so it's on the screen
22 Q. So, Mr. Shaqiri, do you agree with me --
23 MR. NEUNER: Can I just interrupt at this point because the
24 Prosecution believes this is not a proper course of action to show this
25 witness the cover sheet of his statement and then, yeah, ask him simply
1 whether he didn't remember stating about conversation with an officer.
2 We believe the appropriate course of action would be to walk the witness
3 to the particular passage of his statement where he has addressed that
4 day or that particular moment and then show that there is eventually an
5 omission. But just to show the cover page after the witness has stated
6 on the record that he can't remember, we believe is inappropriate.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Neuner.
8 I think it would be more help to the witness and to the Chamber,
9 Mr. Djurdjic, if you were to direct the witness's attention to the part
10 in which he discusses the events but does -- where you say there's no
11 mention of the conversation.
12 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes, but in this
13 second statement of 2001, because this is a sort of a supplemental
14 statement, there is no mention of those matters, and there is also no
15 mention of what I mentioned in the beginning, that this order had come
16 from Belgrade
17 Could we please now see pages 2 of both the Albanian and English
19 Q. Here, if you look at the fifth and sixth paragraph, you will see
20 that nothing is mentioned there.
21 Mr. Shaqiri, have you read the statement?
22 A. Yes, I looked at some parts of it, the ones that are on the
23 screen. But if I may, I'd like to reply with one sentence. All those
24 who have taken statements from me have come to ask me some questions,
25 telling me that they had other information. If I wanted to provide
1 further information they said to me that they already had that. So I
2 think that this is not a complete recount of what happened from the
3 beginning to the end.
4 Q. Mr. Shaqiri, this type of information is so significant that no
5 investigator of this Tribunal would fail to mention such statement, but
6 all right. This is your explanation, and there is no reason for me to
7 further -- put further questions about this. Now I would like to talk
8 about the 13th of April and refer you again to your statement of the
9 25th of April, or rather, since we already have this before us, let's
10 stay with this same document.
11 Mr. Shaqiri, on page 2800, lines 3 to 6 of the Milosevic [as
12 interpreted] transcript, I will read out your answer to a question put.
13 "A. One could see that they have an expression of satisfaction
14 on their faces, and they said, It's good that we found you. We
15 apologise, but the order has come from the supreme staff in Belgrade that
16 Prilepnica had to be evacuated."
17 And you I would like to go back to your 1999 statement, the one
18 of 25th April, D003-0001 --
19 MR. NEUNER: Can I just for the record state that this is again
20 the Milutinovic transcript from which this quote came. I believe my
21 learned colleague has inadvertently mentioned again Milosevic transcript.
22 It is the Milutinovic transcript. Thank you.
23 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. You're absolutely
24 right, my learned friend.
25 Q. Now I will read out paragraph 47, that's on page 4 in the English
1 version, paragraph 1; and in the Albanian version that is on page 4,
2 paragraph 3.
3 "On the 13th of April, 1999, on a Tuesday around 11.30 some
4 soldiers came" --
5 A. Just a second. The transcript is in Serbian, not in Albanian.
6 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please display the
7 Albanian translation?
8 THE WITNESS: [B/C/S interpretation] Well, if you don't have it in
9 Albanian, it's okay, no problem.
10 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Well, I'll tell you, Mr. Shaqiri, I do have the Albanian version.
12 Let me see -- in fact, let me check whether I actually do have it. No,
13 apparently I don't have the Albanian version either of this 1999
14 statement. This was a statement of 25th of April, 1999.
15 So, Mr. Shaqiri, the point that I'm trying to make is that then,
16 too, you did not mention that this order had come from the supreme staff
17 in Belgrade
18 to that conversation of 13 of April, 1999.
19 MR. NEUNER: I'm sorry to interrupt at this point, but the
20 witness has said he would like to look at an Albanian version. We have
21 also checked our records. We don't have one here in the courtroom.
22 Maybe the more appropriate course is to make a break at this point in
23 time and provide the witness with an Albanian version, but he can't
24 answer that question.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Is there an Albanian version available to you,
1 Mr. Djurdjic?
2 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, but I think that
3 the witness can also read Serbian. Unfortunately, I only have the
4 English and B/C/S versions.
5 Q. Mr. Shaqiri, would it be difficult for you to read the Serbian?
6 A. [Albanian interpretation] Yes, I understood the question, and I'm
7 trying to help you out, you and the honourable Court. Because during the
8 Milutinovic trial, I gave a very clear explanation. I mentioned the
9 conversation with two officers Djilas and Palmarevic who didn't mention
11 and I explained, that his driver who worked in the same factory, in the
12 course of conversation he told the driver that the order had come from
13 above, and we were there present and heard it.
14 JUDGE PARKER: I take it from an answer you have already given,
15 Mr. Shaqiri, that you are able to read the language version that's on the
16 screen in front of you. I think you said it was no --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The letters are very small. If you
18 can enlarge them, please.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Is that clear enough for you?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is -- in the transcript the
21 conversation is that of the 6th, not the 13th, what I mentioned earlier
22 when I went to the truck.
23 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have page 5 of the
24 B/C/S version.
25 Q. Can you see it now? That's page 5. Please take a look at the
1 second portion where it says "on the 13th of April," and then read that
2 portion and onwards. Can you see it now? Please just look at this where
3 you said:
4 "The order has come from the Supreme Command in Belgrade
5 A. It's not here. I don't find it here.
6 Q. Can you find that portion?
7 "I knew these three soldiers, they were from Gnjilane. One of
8 them was called ..."
9 So read from there on.
10 "Djilas spoke then. He said he had received orders from the
11 regular Serbian army ..."
12 So that portion.
13 A. [B/C/S interpretation] Yes, I knew these three soldiers.
14 [Albanian interpretation] It should have been said "officer," it's not
15 right, the word chosen in Serbian. [B/C/S interpretation] One of them
16 was called Luba as written, probably Ljuba, Palmarevic, yes, a lawyer,
17 yes. He had a green uniform worn by the regular Serbian army.
18 Q. Mr. Shaqiri, just please mind this. What I'm saying is that here
19 you did not mention that the order had come from the Supreme Command in
21 statement, that portion. That's all I'm asking you about. I'm not
22 making -- I have no questions about the other portions; I'm just
23 interested in this part.
24 A. [Albanian interpretation] I don't know how the translation was
25 done, but I said what I heard.
1 Q. We also have the English version, and it's missing from the
2 English version as well.
3 A. I would kindly ask you to show me the Albanian original because
4 both versions are translations. Because there are two words there, from
5 above that Ljuba mentioned and from Belgrade, but not to me, to his own
6 driver. He told his driver, Reshat, that the order had come from above,
7 from Belgrade
8 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know whether
9 we should ask the Prosecution to provide this statement of 25th of April.
10 I just wanted to ask this witness whether he could confirm that this is
11 what he actually said, and then to tender these documents so that they
12 can be compared with a transcript in the Milutinovic trial. I would
13 appreciate it if you could provide further instructions to me regarding
14 this issue.
15 JUDGE PARKER: [Microphone not activated]
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Have you put to the witness the passages from the
18 statement of the 25th of April, 1999, that you suggest are different from
19 what he now says?
20 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, and the other ones too. And
21 the witness looked at the Serbian version of that statement, and he made
22 a comment but he also commented that he did not have the Albanian version
23 before him. Because this is not to do with the 6th of April. We're now
24 talking about the paragraphs dealing with the 13th of April. That's on
25 page 5 of the B/C/S version, as of 13th of April, and then on the next
1 page through the end of the page. And nowhere in that portion is there
2 any mention of these quotation -- the words that I quoted from the
3 Milutinovic trial.
4 JUDGE PARKER: And you've put to the witness the passages
5 concerning the earlier discussion from that statement? It became rather
6 confused, Mr. Djurdjic, what you were doing. And I'm wanting to be sure
7 that you have put to the witness all the passages that you suggest are
8 relevant to this question concerning both discussions with army officers.
9 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I will try to be quite clear. In
10 the 25th of April, 1999, statement with regards to the conversation that
11 was held on the 13th of April, this conversation with army officers,
12 these were in paragraphs on page 5 from the words "as of April 13th,
13 1999," and in the following paragraphs on the next page. So that's where
14 the words of the witness that refer to the same event as the one where in
15 the Milutinovic case the witness said an order had come from Belgrade
16 that Prilepnica had to be evacuated. So what I'm saying is that both in
17 this June 2001 and the 2002 statements by the witness, those words are
18 missing or that statement is missing. Well, I think that I put to the
19 witness in fairness the portion where it says that they discussed -- they
20 talked to the officer on the 13th, and then they left Prilepnica, and we
21 see this conversation with a man called Palmarevic.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Now, I'm just wanting to be sure that you have put
23 the passages on which you rely because we will be focusing on those at a
24 later time. And you've also mentioned the 2002 statement. Have you put
25 that to the witness?
1 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Well, I'll do it now. That is the
2 statement of 2002 which is very short. And again, I don't have the
3 Albanian version before me. I just have this in the English and B/C/S
4 languages. This is D003-0040. [In English] Of 5th February 2002
5 [Interpretation] Could we now please see this statement of
6 5 February 2002
7 D003-0044 is the same statement in the Albanian version. Could we please
8 see the second page.
9 Q. Mr. Shaqiri, am I correct in saying that your words are also
10 omitted from this correction to your statement of 2002?
11 A. I have made these corrections because I found technical mistakes
12 in the translation.
13 Q. I agree, but on this occasion, too, you failed to mention what
14 I've read out to you when I quoted your words in the Milutinovic case.
15 And I'm just asking you now whether it is true that those -- that part of
16 the statement is also omitted from this correction of 2002?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --
20 JUDGE PARKER: You would now like, Mr. Djurdjic, to tender the
21 statements? You start first with the statement of the 25th of April,
22 1999. That will be received.
23 THE REGISTRAR: That statement, Your Honours, is under document
24 ID D003-0001 would be assigned D00094.
25 JUDGE PARKER: And then the next statement of the 19th and 22nd
1 of June, 2001; is that so, Mr. Djurdjic?
2 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE PARKER: That will be received.
4 THE REGISTRAR: That statement, Your Honours, is under document
5 ID D003-0016 would be assigned D00095.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Then the corrections in 2002?
7 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] That is D003-0040.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here it is 4445 -- 0045 is the
9 number I have here.
10 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Yes, that's the Albanian version of this document.
12 A. Thank you.
13 Q. Just one more question, Mr. Shaqiri --
14 JUDGE PARKER: Just a moment, Mr. Djurdjic. We're waiting for it
15 to come up so that it can be received. It's there now. It will be
17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned D00096, Your Honours.
18 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for this
20 Q. Mr. Shaqiri, just one more question, or rather, I'd like to know
21 this. Am I right in saying that you and your compatriots in 1998 and
22 1999 while you were in Prilepnica had no problems whatsoever with the
23 Serbian police?
24 A. Can you ask the question again, please, I want to hear it again.
25 [B/C/S interpretation] Could you tell me the question again because I
1 hear a double voice in my ears.
2 Q. Am I right in saying that you and your fellow villagers in
3 Prilepnica had no problems whatsoever with the Serbian police in 1998 and
4 1999 before you left the village?
5 A. [Albanian interpretation] It is correct. We never had any
6 problems with the police of Gjilan.
7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Shaqiri.
8 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have
9 completed my cross-examination.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Djurdjic.
11 Mr. Neuner, any re-examination?
12 MR. NEUNER: A few questions, Your Honours. If I could
13 have - and I've only the 65 ter number at this point, I know it was
14 tendered - 5075 is the -- it's P731 I'm told. Could I have P731.
15 Re-examination by Mr. Neuner:
16 Q. And I'm pulling this map up, Witness, because you were just asked
17 about the police. Could you briefly tell me where in the area in and
18 around Prilepnica was the police stationed, if at all, in the events of
19 the first half of April 1999?
20 A. There was no police station as such, but on the 6th of April when
21 the police came, this police was not from Gjilan. It was different
22 police. I didn't know these people. Police and army because their
23 uniforms differed. The movement of the convoy on their orders from our
24 village towards Korstul [phoen].
25 Q. I want to take this one by one. Can you first of all tell
1 Your Honours here on the map which you have annotated in the Milutinovic
2 trial, where is your village Prilepnica? Just state a number for
3 Your Honours' benefit, please.
4 A. Prilepnica is number 1. Kmetofc is number 2, this is a different
5 village. There was army stationed there --
6 Q. I'm asking you for the police so far.
7 A. Police, as far as police is concerned, only at Kmetofc village
8 and the village marked with number 4.
9 Q. Kmetofc village is marked with which number, please?
10 A. Two.
11 Q. You just mentioned that -- and I believe you referred to the
12 6th of April, the police was there in the place you encircled as
13 number 2. How or where exactly did you see the police there, in what
14 fashion? You mentioned that they were not having a police station
15 earlier, but how did you see the police there?
16 A. This was traffic police, a regular patrol. They were at Kmetofc
18 Q. And what were they doing when you saw them on the 6th of April,
20 A. The police only looked at us, whereas the army was the one that
21 stopped us.
22 Q. Okay. And can you describe the relationship, if any, between the
23 police and the army at the place you encircled as number 2?
24 A. The police was separate from the army. Maybe there were about
25 20 to 50 metres apart between the police and the army.
1 Q. And how many policemen did you observe on the 6th of April, 1999
2 A. There were two or three traffic policemen there, not a large
4 Q. Okay. Then can you confirm briefly that this map here running
5 from number 1 to number 5 is, in fact, depicting the route your convoy
6 took on the 6th of April?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Could you by just referring to the numbers indicate to
9 Your Honours where you, if at all, saw the police again having passed the
10 place you mentioned or encircled with number 2?
11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
12 MR. NEUNER: Just --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Number 4.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Please wait for a minute, Mr. Shaqiri.
15 Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.
16 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I don't think I gave any cause for
17 the explanation of this map in my cross-examination, and if it is
18 necessary, perhaps the witness could have drawn a new map in direct
20 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Neuner, the concern is how does this arise in
22 MR. NEUNER: Yeah. I'm only dwelling on this map in relation to
23 the police. I'm, as Your Honours could observe, trying to stop the
24 witness when he talks about the army and so on. I'm asking these
25 questions because my learned colleague has asked about the relationship
1 between the witness or the villagers of Prilepnica and the police. And
2 I'm merely focusing on the police component of that witness's evidence.
3 I'm just trying to show a slightly different picture, Your Honour. I'm
4 mindful of not dwelling into any new areas; I'm confining myself to the
6 JUDGE PARKER: Please carry on, Mr. Neuner.
7 MR. NEUNER:
8 Q. Could you now just answer the question, Witness. Where on your
9 way on the 6th of April did you see apart from number 2 the police again,
10 if at all?
11 A. At number 4.
12 Q. And which type of police did you observe at number 4, and where
13 were they stationed?
14 A. Again, traffic police, but the number of policemen was bigger,
15 five or six policemen there.
16 Q. And when your convoy was walking, what were the policemen doing?
17 A. They asked about our whereabouts, where we were heading to, on
18 whose orders. We told him that we had nothing to do with the police,
19 that we received this order from the army.
20 Q. And where, if at all, did you see the police other than at
21 number 2 and number 4 on the 6th of April, 1999?
22 A. No, but these policemen from number 4 came to number 5 and told
23 us to go back.
24 Q. Okay. If I could have now - and this refers to a map from the
25 13th of April - the exhibit number P732 on the ELMO -- or, sorry, on the
1 e-court. P732. Just in one sentence or two what were you marking here
2 in the course of the Milutinovic case?
3 A. Again, the movement of the convoy from my village towards
5 Q. And that is on what day?
6 A. 14th April 1999
7 Q. And you have marked here four numbers. At which of these
8 numbers, if at any, did you or the convoy encounter the police?
9 A. Just before Gjilan we were escorted by a police patrol throughout
10 the journey.
11 Q. Can you --
12 A. Up to Dugane.
13 Q. From what point onwards were you escorted by the police?
14 A. At the junction about 2 kilometres away from the village. As we
15 left the village when we arrived at this junction, one policeman escorted
16 us up to Livoc, and from Livoc we were escorted by four policemen. On
17 the way we came to two different check-points, and there we saw different
18 people, not regular police --
19 Q. Can I just stop you here for a second. First tell me -- you said
20 2 kilometres away from the village you were escorted by the police.
21 Which village were you referring to?
22 A. My village, Prilepnica. So from Prilepnica up to the main road
23 we walked on our own. And from there up to Livoc we were escorted by one
24 policeman. From Livoc onwards we were escorted by four policemen.
25 Q. Do you find Livoc here on the map in front of you?
1 A. Yes. You see Gjilan here. Number 1 is Livoc, as far as I can
3 MR. NEUNER: Can we maybe for the witness's benefit enlarge that
4 so that he can see that this is Livoc.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just before number 1 is Livoc. Now
6 it's better. So up to Livoc we were escorted by one policeman.
7 MR. NEUNER: Can we now have the entire map, please.
8 Q. Can you tell me, Witness, where, if at any other point, did you
9 encounter or the convoy encounter the police?
10 A. As far as other policemen or people dressed in uniforms,
11 different uniforms, are concerned, we saw them at number 2 at Partesh and
12 at Kllokot.
13 Q. Starting with number 2, how many policemen did you observe there?
14 A. There, there were people with different uniforms. There were
15 policemen mixed with other people wearing different uniforms. We were
16 threatened there.
17 Q. Sorry --
18 A. We had to pass through a barbed wire.
19 Q. You're not answering my question. I'm asking you how many
20 policemen were you observing at this place encircled with a number 2.
21 A. According to the uniforms they wore, they were not regular
22 policemen. They were not policemen from the town. They were different.
23 Q. I'm just asking you for a number, not for the uniforms as such.
24 How many persons you would qualify as being in the police you --
25 A. More than 20 I would say.
1 Q. And then you mentioned other places where you saw them. Partesh,
2 how many policemen did you observe at Partesh?
3 A. At Partesh all of them were military, mobilised.
4 Q. And at Kllokot, did you observe any police at Kllokot?
5 A. What we spoke earlier refers to Kllokot.
6 Q. Is that place mentioned with a number here on the map in front of
8 A. Kllokot is at number 2.
9 Q. Okay. Then I have just a few questions --
10 MR. NEUNER: And I mind the time, Your Honours.
11 Q. -- relating to KLA presence because my learned colleague had
12 asked a few questions. Can you tell me on the 6th of April, was there
13 any fighting between the Serb troops and the KLA in or around Prilepnica?
14 A. No.
15 Q. On the 13th of April, 1999, was there any fighting in or around
16 Prilepnica between the KLA and the Serbian forces?
17 A. No, sir, there weren't.
18 Q. Was any member of the Serbian forces, to your knowledge, wounded
19 on the 6th or on the 13th of April when your village evacuated?
20 A. Yes, a Serb soldier was wounded on the 6th of April.
21 Q. Do you know anything --
22 A. From a ricochet.
23 Q. Okay. Do you know who shot that ricochet?
24 A. I have a map of my village with me. There are two roads there.
25 There's a junction --
1 Q. Sorry. I'm just asking you for who shot the ricochet, not where
2 it was happening.
3 A. He fired at a metal gate, and then he was wounded himself from a
4 ricochet of the bullet. The bullet ricochetted from the gate.
5 Q. And now can you give us the place where the soldier or person
6 fired on the metal gate?
7 A. He was on the road. They were coming from the west towards the
8 centre of the village, and that's where they gathered from all
9 different -- the different directions. And they were firing without
11 Q. Two more questions. Did you leave on the 6th and/or on the 13th
12 of April your village because you were fearful of the KLA engaging in
13 conflict with the Serb forces?
14 A. No, sir.
15 Q. Were you leaving on the 6th or on the 13th of April with all the
16 other villagers of Prilepnica because you were fearful of NATO attacks on
17 your village?
18 A. No, sir, no.
19 Q. Has throughout the conflict in 1999 NATO attacked your village?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Why were you leaving on both occasions, on the 6th and the 13th
22 of April, your village? And I'm referring to 1999.
23 A. On the 6th we were ordered to do so by the military, whereas on
24 the 13th of April we were ordered to do so by the officers that I
25 mentioned. They secured us escort up to Macedonia.
1 MR. NEUNER: The Prosecution has no further questions,
2 Your Honour.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Neuner.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE PARKER: You will be pleased to know, Mr. Shaqiri, that
6 that completes the questions for you. We've had not only the evidence
7 you've been able to give today but also the earlier statements you've
8 made and the full record of the evidence you gave in the Milutinovic
9 trial. And we'll be absorbing all of that. So we are very grateful that
10 you've been able to come yet again and for the assistance that you've
11 been able to give us. We thank you, and you may of course now return to
12 your normal activities, and the court officer will assist you.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, and I wish
14 you success.
15 [The witness withdrew]
16 JUDGE PARKER: I understand that's the evidence available for
17 today, Mr. Neuner.
18 MR. NEUNER: Yes, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Now, we resume on Monday. At this moment I'm not
20 sure whether it's morning or afternoon -- in the afternoon, I'm reminded.
21 I hope we will be able next week and following to have a full body of
22 evidence to use the time that is available to best effort.
23 So we now must adjourn, and we will see you again on Monday.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.37 a.m.
25 to be reconvened on Monday, the 4th day of
1 May, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.