Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4828

 1                           Thursday, 21 May 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6                           WITNESS:  XHAFER BEQIRAJ [Resumed]

 7                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning, Mr. Beqiraj.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  The affirmation you made to tell the truth still

11     applies today.

12             Yes, Mr. Djordjevic.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Djordjevic:  [Continued]

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Beqiraj.

17        A.   Good morning.

18        Q.   Yesterday, we talked about the rights of the Albanian population

19     being violated when education was concerned.  Given that you were quite

20     active in that respect since you worked in education, I will have a few

21     additional questions concerning the period involved, as well as some

22     relatively recent events.

23             I'm interested in the following:  Do you know of the agreed

24     measures to implement the agreement on education from the 1st of

25     September, 1996, and do you know of the agreement at all that was reached

Page 4829

 1     by the then president, Slobodan Milosevic, and Dr. Ibrahim Rugova as a

 2     representative of the Albanian population?

 3        A.   Yes, I know of that event, but to my knowledge this agreement

 4     failed.  If I'm not mistaken, in 1997 and even earlier, students staged

 5     protests which were violently suppressed by the police.  The students

 6     were beaten, prosecuted, and everything ended badly.

 7        Q.   Do you recall why such protests were launched, the protest of

 8     students and Albanians in general in 1996, and what seemed to be the main

 9     cause of it?

10        A.   I don't remember fully why, but these protests were launched

11     because they asked for freedom, democracy, and for the freeing of the

12     school facilities.

13        Q.   The 1997 demonstrations, did they put forth as their main

14     objective the independence of Kosovo, or did they have indeed a purely

15     educational agenda?

16        A.   They were also for independence, if I'm not mistaken, but I

17     cannot give you explicit reasons because a long time has passed and I

18     wasn't involved in them.

19        Q.   Given that you knew of the agreement between Dr. Rugova, the late

20     Rugova, and the then president, now deceased, Mr. Milosevic, do you know

21     of the measures that were to be put in place in order to implement the

22     agreement of the 1st of September, 1996.  The measures carry a date in

23     1997.  Sorry, March 1998.

24        A.   I have no recollections of these measures.  The only thing I know

25     is, however, that this agreement failed.

Page 4830

 1        Q.   What followed, historically speaking, was the opening of the

 2     Institute for Albanian Studies in Pristina on the 31st of March, 1998.

 3     It was handed over completely to Albanian professors and students.  Given

 4     that you are a teacher of the Albanian language and that the Institute

 5     for Albanian Studies meant a whole lot to your population, do you know

 6     what took place at the institute on the 31st of March and before that, on

 7     the 23rd of March, 1998?  I don't know whether you will agree with me if

 8     I say that the agreement was signed by Fehmi Agani, Abdyl Ramaji, Rexhep

 9     Osmani, Ratomir Vitco, Goran Percevic, Djobrosav Bjeletic, and in

10     attendance was also a member of the Sant'Egidio community, Monsignor

11     Vicenzo Paglia.  Do you know agree with me concerning these facts?

12        A.   First, I am not aware who took part in this agreement.  If I'm

13     not mistaken, however, this institute of Albanological studies.  As I

14     said yesterday, a few facilities were vacated for Albanians to use them,

15     but they were handed over to Albanians in a very poor state.  They were

16     destroyed, damaged, and this applies both to the physical facilities and

17     to the books, the equipment in the possession of the institute.  In my

18     opinion, this was a tactic in order to beguile the international

19     community that they were allegedly giving the Albanians their rights,

20     whereas in fact the university facilities were completely banned for

21     Albanians, and this is a fact of life, because we were obliged to work in

22     private facilities, in make-shift schools.  We had to sit on the floor

23     and to take lectures in these conditions.

24        Q.   Do you know why those facilities were in poor condition?

25        A.   Which facilities?

Page 4831

 1        Q.   I have in mind those you refer to, the school buildings, faculty

 2     buildings.

 3        A.   I heard that when the institute was given over to the Albanians,

 4     it was in a very poor state.  I didn't see it myself, but I heard it from

 5     others that it was in such a wretched condition.  In the facilities,

 6     make-shift facilities, I worked in, the situation was, as I said, very,

 7     very difficult, but we had the will to continue.  That's why we managed

 8     to survive in those very hard conditions.

 9        Q.   Do you know how many faculties or schools there were under the

10     umbrella of Pristina University?

11        A.   They were many, but I don't know how to describe them.  I don't

12     know all of them.  Maybe the education officials would be in a better

13     position to give you an idea, the deans, the rectors who are involved in

14     such a work.

15        Q.   Did you know that by virtue of this agreement there were eight

16     university facilities given to Albanian students for use?  In physical

17     terms that included seven buildings covering some 30 different schools,

18     and they also received the keys to the student restaurant, dorms, et

19     cetera, et cetera.

20        A.   I have no knowledge about that.  The only thing I know is that

21     the students were taught in private homes.  This is what I know.

22        Q.   Do you have any knowledge of the return of Albanian students to

23     higher educational facilities?

24        A.   No, I have no knowledge of that.  Until 1998, I was a student and

25     was taught in those private facilities, until the end of 1998, and I

Page 4832

 1     didn't see any changes.  Personally, I didn't set foot in the faculty of

 2     philological studies of which I was a student.  I have no information

 3     about other universities, but my colleagues said that they, too, were

 4     being taught in private homes.  They studied there.

 5        Q.   Mr. Beqiraj, back in 1996, 1997, and 1998, the late Mr. Rugova,

 6     was he a legitimate representative of the Albanian community?  What about

 7     Fehmi Agani, Abdul Rrahman, and Rexhep Osmani?  Were they also

 8     representatives of the Albanian population at the time given that those

 9     people were involved in negotiations with the then Serbian President,

10     late Mr. Milosevic?  In your knowledge and opinion were they legitimate

11     representatives of the Albanian population?

12        A.   Yes, they were legitimate representatives of the Albanian people

13     since they were elected by the people and voted by them.

14        Q.   Given that they signed the agreement in the presence of the

15     representatives -- well, I will not say a representative of the

16     international community but, rather, a representative of an organisation

17     called Sant'Egidio, and given that they were handed over the buildings,

18     albeit in poor shape, I wanted to ask you this:  Did anyone begin

19     attending lectures as of the moment of the conclusion of the agreement,

20     and do you know whether in 1998 the Institute for Albanian Studies was

21     operational at all?  When I ask you this, I have in mind to ask you

22     whether there were any professors teaching there and any students

23     attending lectures.  Do you have any knowledge of that?

24        A.   Firstly, with respect to the agreement, I may say that many

25     agreements have been concluded then, but how successful they were, how

Page 4833

 1     much they were enforced, this is another issue.  It is easy to conclude

 2     an agreement, but the problem is to enforce them.  That's why I'm saying

 3     that these agreements were not properly enforced.

 4             As far as the Albanological institute is concerned, I have no

 5     information that the professors worked there, because the situation was

 6     an unusual one, especially in 1998 it was a situation of war.  So I have

 7     no information about what you are putting to me.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  My question concerning this situation is the

 9     following:  Do you know that on the 6th of August, 1998, the Ministry of

10     Education, at a meeting with the representatives of -- the international

11     community and Mr. Kamerun as well as Mr. Djamjanovic who was there on

12     behalf of the Ministry of Education whereupon they concluded an agreement

13     on the funds to be used to renew the three buildings of the technological

14     faculty as well as the student dorm building number 3 in the student

15     settlement, as well as reconstruction of the student dorm building number

16     3 at the location in the existing student settlement, as well as

17     reconstruction of the old building of the old -- of the old technical

18     faculty, then reconstruction of the amphitheatre building at the location

19     of the old technical faculty, reconstruction and repair of the

20     administrative building of the old technical faculty.  It all encompassed

21     a total area of over 12.000 square metres.

22             The price envisaged per square metre at the time was around 450

23     ecu, which should have been over 400 million ecu in total.  These were

24     supposed to be the funds of the Republic of Serbian and its ministry.  Do

25     you know anything about that?

Page 4834

 1        A.   I know nothing about what you're saying, and I don't believe that

 2     this is the case.  I know that there were a lot of destructions and not

 3     reconstructions of building.  I heard that churches were built in various

 4     sites, churches where no -- where didn't exist there before, and proof of

 5     this you can find even today in the university grounds, but as I said, I

 6     did not hear that any faculty was reconstructed.  I only heard that they

 7     were demolished, literature was burned and disappeared, and all these

 8     things.

 9        Q.   A short while ago I asked you whether you knew how it came about

10     that those buildings were destroyed or damaged in Pristina.  Do you know

11     who damaged them?

12        A.   I do not know for sure, but I think that who could have

13     demolished them or destroyed them other than those who work there, who

14     had them in their possession.  Until that time, the Serb professors, the

15     Serb students were the ones who owned, let's say, these facilities.

16        Q.   Would you agree with me if I said that a person using a certain

17     facility has no interest in destroying it, damaging it?  Excuse me.

18     Would you agree with me that the damage caused occurred before 1998?

19        A.   No, not -- I don't think so.  They were damaged deliberately, and

20     also deliberately hundreds of books were destroyed from these premises.

21     I believe that there are evidence to this.  This evidence to the

22     destruction inflicted on these universities.  It was a time not for the

23     construction.  It was a time for destruction which went on for a decade,

24     a decade of repressions, pressure during which the Albanian people had

25     suffered a lot.

Page 4835

 1        Q.   Did you say yesterday that the Serb population in Kosovo amounted

 2     to 5 per cent?

 3        A.   Yes.  This is what I know from my readings.

 4        Q.   Would you mind sharing the source of this information with you?

 5     Were their any censuses five or ten years back in Kosovo in which

 6     Albanian population also participated?

 7        A.   I have no information of any census taken, but during the voting

 8     and on other occasions they have come up with this figure.  We have had

 9     very good relations with the Serb population until prior to the 1990s,

10     but after what happened, promoting Serb nationalism, hatred was instilled

11     among the two peoples and we came to what we all know.

12        Q.   I suppose that the answer you gave means that you arrived at an

13     approximate figure of the Kosovo population based on the elections, as

14     you've just explained.  If you wish to retract from that, you should do

15     it now.

16        A.   No, I cannot retract that because there are data to prove what

17     I'm saying, data which are even internationally recognised, that is,

18     about 92 per cent of the population is Albanian, and about 5 per cent are

19     Serbs, and 3 per cent by other nationalities which live in Kosova.

20        Q.   The latest of my questions was put because since you have those

21     figures based on the elections, it would mean that members of the Serb

22     population also participated in those elections in addition to the 3 per

23     cent of other ethnicities in Kosovo.  I guess you're trying to tell us

24     all that in those elections also the Serbs participated as well as other

25     ethnic groups.

Page 4836

 1        A.   No.  The Serbs did not participate in elections.  They boycotted

 2     them.  I have no information that the Serbs participated in the election,

 3     but it's not the election alone.  After 1999, when we returned to Kosova,

 4     after the ethnic cleansing and the torture and genocide we were subjected

 5     to, if I'm not mistaken, until in 2000, 2001, people began to be supplied

 6     with ID cards and to be registered.  And this -- from this registration

 7     they came up with this figure about the Albanian population, because at

 8     that time we received our identity cards, the UNMIK passports.

 9        Q.   Mr. Beqiraj, Nis is a town in Central Serbia.  It has its own

10     university.  I am waiting for documents that will be provided by my legal

11     assistant on the basis of which it can be seen that in 1996, 1997, and

12     1998 the Nis University planned to enroll 2.400 students.  The Pristina

13     University planned to enroll 2.430 students in total.  Are you trying to

14     say that or to explain that among the 2.400 students there was a need, of

15     course, and funds were provided from the Serbian budget for that, that

16     2 -- out of 2.400 persons the population of Serbs would be that 5 per

17     cent and that number of 2.430 in Pristina would correspond to the same

18     number of students in Nis, which is a much larger town in Central Serbia?

19     Can you comment on that?

20        A.   I cannot comment on that.  What I know and I'm sure of is that

21     the number of students in Prishtina was not 2.430.  There were far more

22     students, although the situation was as it was at the time and the

23     conditions were poor.  The youth did whatever they could to continue

24     their education without any support from the Serb government.  On the

25     contrary, the Serbs were being arrested -- correction, the students were

Page 4837

 1     being arrested, tortured during the protests.  They staged protests in

 2     which they raised their voices for democracy, for rights to education

 3     without any racial, religious, or national discrimination.

 4        Q.   I would agree with you, but the only point on which I would

 5     disagree with you is that the students did not object to the system of

 6     education but because they were in favour of the independence of Kosovo

 7     after the constitutional changes which took place in Serbia.

 8             Would you agree with me that -- again I'm asking you that the

 9     demonstration's main purpose was the independence of Kosovo, and always,

10     always as the motto the Republic of Kosovo?

11        A.   I already mentioned this, that whenever the students

12     demonstrated, they asked for their education facilities, for their rights

13     to education as all the peoples in the world without leaving aside the

14     purpose of being free and able to live freely in your country without

15     being persecuted, tortured, or arrested.  These demonstrations were

16     suppressed by the authorities and there are facts that corroborate this.

17     This is all I can say.

18        Q.   I am going to agree with you, and at the time it was quite normal

19     for the authorities to react in relation to their citizens regardless of

20     what ethnicity they were, but if the demonstrations were against the

21     constitutional system of a sovereign state at the time, then that applies

22     all the more so.

23             I'm going to complete this part and this topic regarding

24     education because I wanted to check how much you actually know and how

25     well you are informed about that.

Page 4838

 1             My last question is:  Are you talking at the time -- do you speak

 2     a language which at the time was called the Serbo-Croatian and then later

 3     was called the Serbian language?

 4        A.   I used to speak it better before, to write it better and

 5     understand it better.  However, now I can understand it, but I find it

 6     more difficult to speak.

 7        Q.   At the time, was bilingual usage guaranteed under the

 8     constitution at the time, and what was the official language at the time

 9     in Kosovo, including all the official institutions and educational

10     institutions?

11        A.   The official language at the time was Serbo-Croatian.

12        Q.   Including educational institutions?

13        A.   Are you referring to the Albanian educational institutions?

14        Q.   At that point -- actually, now we are talking about the legally

15     existing institutions within the system of a state which at that point in

16     time was called Serbia and its autonomous province which at that point in

17     time was called Kosovo and Metohija.  So I'm asking you about those

18     institutions, because the system of that state at that time did not

19     recognise parallel systems.  So what was the official language in use?

20     Was it Serbo-Croatian, Serbian, or Serbian and Albanian?  This is what

21     I'm asking you.  And were there any other languages officially used in

22     Kosovo at that time in keeping with the constitution?  If you know.

23        A.   Your Honours, can I please get the time period that the counsel

24     is referring to?

25             JUDGE PARKER:  I have put from my memory, 1996 to 1998 with a

Page 4839

 1     question mark, because like you, I was not sure.

 2             But is that the correct period, Mr. Djordjevic?

 3             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  Yes.  Yes, Your Honour, that's the period.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  That will help the witness.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 6             This is a time of discrimination, and at this time the official

 7     language as Serbo-Croatian.

 8             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Would you agree with me that according to the constitution of the

10     Republic of Serbia the official language in Kosovo and Metohija and in

11     use was also the Albanian?

12        A.   Yes.  Prior to 1989, Albanian was also an official language.

13     However, when the constitution of 1974 was violently revoked, the

14     Albanian language was no longer an official language.  At this time, we

15     were being stripped of all our rights that other peoples enjoyed.

16        Q.   Mr. Beqiraj, you travelled throughout Kosovo.  It's not a large

17     area.  I travelled in Kosovo.  When I travel in Kosovo, I always see

18     signs on which it says Urosevac.  Above that it says something else.  Do

19     you know -- did you know bilingual signage?  For example, Ferizaj and

20     then underneath that Urosevac.  This was something that was in force in

21     1990s, in 1996, 1998.  Did you --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel repeat the last part of what he

23     said.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- honourable counsel, but the

25     official language, the officiality of a language is measured by whether

Page 4840

 1     it is used in institutions, not on road signs.

 2        Q.   When did you get married, Mr. Beqiraj, in which year?

 3        A.   1994.

 4        Q.   1994?  Do you have a certificate of marriage, the original one

 5     from the municipality where the marriage was performed?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And marriage certificate, is that in the Serbian or the Albanian

 8     language, or is it only in Serbian or only in Albanian?

 9        A.   I don't remember.  However, the area where I registered my

10     marriage was inhabited by Albanian majority, and I did notice that the

11     registration -- the registry was recorded both in Albanian and in

12     Serbian.  In my opinion, this is not that relevant.  What is relevant is

13     the use of the Albanian language in different institutions, be they

14     education or other institutions in Kosova.

15        Q.   Mr. Beqiraj, did you ever try to enter into employment as a

16     teacher in the school system which was recognised by the then-sovereign

17     state of Serbia, in the territory which at the time was called the

18     Autonomous Province of Kosovo?  Did you take part in any job vacancies to

19     get a job in the Kosovo education system, you yourself?

20        A.   I enrolled secondary school and higher education at the time.  I

21     wasn't looking for a job.  I wanted to continue my studies so that -- to

22     provide myself with a better future.

23             When I began my studies, the violent measures were in place.  We

24     were forced out from the facilities to the roads, and we had to find a

25     way out from this situation, to find the way how to continue with our

Page 4841

 1     education in private houses and facilities so that our youth could

 2     continue its education and not remain illiterate.  We know, all of us,

 3     very well about the situation at the time.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  I am now going to move to the events that you cover

 5     in your statements of the 14th of April, 1999, in Tirana, that you

 6     provided, and this later one that you recognise as the statement that you

 7     later read and signed and that was shown to you.

 8             You say that there were refugees at your home whom you knew

 9     earlier from the village of Opterusa.  Do you know where that village is,

10     in which municipality?

11        A.   In fact, I didn't know this family.  I came to know them when

12     they were looking for shelter.  There were some facilities that could be

13     given to them.  Not in excellent conditions, but they were given to them.

14     This village, to answer your question, is in Rahovec municipality.

15        Q.   When did they come to Prizren precisely where you were and when

16     they took those buildings or facilities which you say were not really all

17     that good.  When did this happen?

18        A.   To my knowledge, they came there after August 1998.  They were

19     staying in some other houses in Prizren.  I don't know the reasons why

20     they left their houses in Prizren, the houses that were given to them.

21     They came and knocked at my door, asked for shelter, and we helped them.

22     This is how it was.

23        Q.   Are you aware that in the period that you're talking about, 1998,

24     the town of Orahovac was occupied by the Kosovo Liberation Army members

25     and that the Kosovo Liberation Army for a while that year was completely

Page 4842

 1     in control there?

 2        A.   After the war I learned that the KLA did have this town under its

 3     control for brief period, and subsequently the Serb forces drove them

 4     out.  There was fighting in Rahovec.  Many civilians were killed as a

 5     result of these fightings in Rahovec municipality.

 6        Q.   In one of your statements you say that one evening 12 young men

 7     came to your house because they believed your house to be safer.  Safer

 8     than what, or safer than who's house?  What did those 12 young men mean

 9     by that?

10        A.   I apologise.  My house was not safer.  That's not what I said.  I

11     didn't say that my house was safer.  There was -- there weren't any safe

12     houses in Kosovo at the time.

13             If I've put this this way, what I meant was the following:  These

14     neighbours came there so that we could all together live by those

15     difficult times.  This is what I meant by what I said.  Nobody was safe

16     and secure at the time.  Even if this house was a castle, nobody would

17     have felt safe in it.

18             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please show the statement

19     of the 14th of April, 1999, on the screen.  This is Exhibit D003-0395.

20             Can we look at page 2 of the statement, please.  And in Albanian

21     as well.  This is in B/C/S.  Earlier we were looking at the text in

22     Albanian.  Now we see the text in B/C/S -- or we actually only had the

23     first page.

24             Your Honours, if you permit me, I would like to read a part to

25     the witness, because you see that paragraph in front of you in English.

Page 4843

 1     This is something that I wish to put questions to the witness about.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  There you have it now, yes.

 3             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  [In English] Thank

 4     you, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Paragraph 3 of this statement you say that you

 6     decided to place your family in a safer place.  You were taking them to

 7     an uncle, children, some cousins, in the centre of Prizren, and you

 8     stayed in your house with this refugee family.  You're probably thinking

 9     about this family from Opterusa.

10             Already in the next paragraph you say:

11             "The next evening, 12 young men came to my house to stay with me

12     because they were considering my house safer.  They stayed only one night

13     in my house."

14             In reference to this part, I wanted to ask you first if this is

15     what you actually say.  If you did not, can you please then explain what

16     actually all this is about so that we can eliminate any dilemmas about

17     this particular point.  Your family, I agree -- you took your family to a

18     place that you believed was safer, but these 12 young men thought that

19     your house was safer.  Who are they?  They spent one night there.  Why

20     did they come to your house, and what was the reason for that?

21        A.   I will explain it to you.  I did not read or sign the statement.

22     I removed the children and the women to the centre of the town for

23     security reasons.  We men remained in the house.

24             Other families in the neighbourhood did the same thing.  Some

25     youth and some elderly men had remained in their houses to guard their

Page 4844

 1     houses, to look after them.  As the situation was such, we decided to

 2     stay all together.  My house was not a fortification, was not a castle.

 3     It was a simple house.  So we got together just to be able to live by

 4     those difficult times together.  It was not for safety reasons.  There

 5     was no safety in Kosova at the time.  Nobody felt safe.

 6        Q.   That is clear to all of us.  The only thing that I would like to

 7     ask you is who are these 12.  How was it that they came to you

 8     specifically?  Who are these 12 young men?

 9        A.   These were my neighbours with whom I shared everything.  These

10     young men, these neighbours of mine, had also removed their families and

11     sent them to the centre of the town because we heard different stories

12     about horrible things that had happened, police raids, lootings, and so

13     forth.  That's why we thought that it would be better for the women and

14     the children to go to the centre.  As I mentioned earlier, in the Progres

15     Factory area there were many forces stationed.  There were -- there was

16     gunfire continuously.  And that's why we decided to do so.  I don't know

17     if it was to our best or worst, but this was the decision we took.  It

18     was a situation of war.  We thought that this would be the best solution

19     for us, and we decided to stay together.

20        Q.   Thank you for this clarification.  Everything is much clearer

21     now.  Can you please tell us, when was the first time that you heard

22     about the Kosovo Liberation Army?

23        A.   I heard about Kosovo Liberation Army, 1997, when in Drenica three

24     members of the KLA, on the funeral of a teacher from Drenica area that

25     had been killed by the police forces for the first time appeared

Page 4845

 1     publicly.  Until that time people had little faith that such an army

 2     existed.  I learned about this after the war.

 3             In my opinion, this military organisation was borne out of the

 4     people, people that had suffered a lot of repression at the time.  These

 5     were young men that took weapons in their hands to defend themselves, to

 6     defend their families, and to defend their homeland.

 7        Q.   Mr. Beqiraj, did you see how KLA members were armed, what sort of

 8     uniforms they wore, and whether they wore any at all?

 9        A.   No, I didn't see them until after the war.  After we returned

10     from Albania, I had an occasion to see them.

11        Q.   Mr. Beqiraj, did you hear of any KLA presence in the environs of

12     Prizren?

13        A.   I heard of it in Vrini.  Outskirts, then Reti [phoen] village of

14     Rahovec municipality and of their presence in other places.

15        Q.   Did you know that members of the KLA killed, tortured, raped both

16     Serb and Albanian population they thought were disloyal to their cause,

17     in their criteria?

18        A.   To my knowledge and from what I heard, the KLA abided fully by

19     the laws of war.  I remember very well a time when they had kidnapped

20     some prisoners, and they exchanged them with Serb forces.  In my opinion,

21     the KLA abided by all the law -- laws of the war.  It is an army that was

22     incited as a result of use of force to protect its population, to protect

23     their hearts.  You cannot accuse such an army of kidnappings, violations,

24     killing of civilians.  It's another thing when we talk of a conflict

25     between the two belligerent sides.  It would be the same if in the course

Page 4846

 1     of a war things happen, but to commit ethnic cleansing of a civilian

 2     population, this is beyond understanding and reason.

 3        Q.   I will certainly agree with you, Mr. Beqiraj, in that regard.

 4     However, I failed to understand whether you were a witness to or whether

 5     you only heard of any exchanges.  You said they kidnapped some people and

 6     then exchanged them later.  What was it all about?  What were you trying

 7     to tell us?

 8        A.   As far as I remember, they took some prisoners.  Whether they

 9     were -- war prisoners.  Whether they were soldiers or not, I don't know,

10     but I think they were soldiers.  They were Serbs.  And to my knowledge,

11     they negotiated to exchange the prisoners.  I don't know if that took

12     effect, but my point was that the KLA implemented the laws of the war.

13     It was an army with scarce weapons, not professionally organised because

14     it was an army formed in a very difficult situation but which was the

15     outcome of force, repression exerted against our population.  Any people

16     in the world would have done the same to protect itself from ethnic

17     cleansing, from being murdered.

18             As to what you are saying about kidnappings or rapes of

19     civilians, this is something that I have no knowledge about.  Frankly

20     speaking, I don't know that, and I don't believe in such things.

21        Q.   A moment ago you responded by saying that you saw KLA members

22     after the war.  What you are testifying to now concerning the exchange

23     seems to have taken place during the war.  Could you please explain the

24     contradiction?  Who did you learn this from, and how do you know about

25     it?  To learn of an exchange is a thing of confidence.  Only someone who

Page 4847

 1     had contact with the KLA could have known about such prisoners.  Could

 2     you please explain the whole situation to me?

 3        A.   Yes, I heard about that through radio and television, to my

 4     recollection, because I didn't have any contacts with the KLA because I

 5     was simply a teacher and also a student.  I told you the truth.  I saw

 6     KLA uniforms and KLA members only after the war.

 7        Q.   Thank you for this clarification, Mr. Beqiraj.  Do you know a

 8     person by the name of Resadija Morina from Prizren?

 9        A.   No, I do not.

10        Q.   Do you know where Ulcinjska street is in Prizren, and how far

11     from your house is it?

12        A.   As the crow flies, 500 or so metres, approximately.

13        Q.   Did you know that on the 6th of February, 1999, it was reported

14     that members of the KLA, on the 4th of February, armed with automatic

15     rifles in Ulcinjska street 105 in Prizren, kidnapped Milaim Morina and

16     his cousin, Zeknja Nedo.  Do you have any knowledge of that?  It has to

17     do with the name of the person I just mentioned recently in addition to

18     the two persons referred to just now.  It is Resadija Morina, the person

19     reporting the event in February 1999, before a NATO bombardment, in

20     Ulcinjska street in Prizren.  The other people are Milaim Morina and

21     Zeknja Nedo, both from Prizren?

22        A.   Frankly speaking, I have no idea of such an event.

23        Q.   Are you familiar with the name of Senad Bajrami in Prizren?

24        A.   No, I do not.

25        Q.   Are familiar with the -- with Kosovska Udorna Brigada street in

Page 4848

 1     Prizren, and how far is it from your house?

 2        A.   To tell you the truth, I am not familiar with it because, as I

 3     said, a long time has passed since then and the name of the streets have

 4     been changed.  So I'm not familiar with that.  I don't remember.

 5        Q.   You don't know of that street.  However, do you have any

 6     knowledge of an event that took place on the 8th of March, 1999, around

 7     8.30 in the evening?  Some KLA members attacked and seriously injured

 8     Morina Maska Zeren.  I think that was his last name.  Do you have any

 9     knowledge about that?

10        A.   I have no idea about that either.  To tell you the truth, many

11     things, many terrible things used to happen at that time.  People were

12     killed, tortured, and one cannot keep track of everything that happens,

13     so I have no idea.

14        Q.   Do you know of an event which took place on the next day, the 9th

15     of March, again in the evening, Imer Xhhfiqi was kidnapped, a resident of

16     Prizren.  Do you have any knowledge about that?

17        A.   No, I do not.

18        Q.   Do you have any personal knowledge or information, direct or

19     indirect, about the incidents which took place in the environs of Prizren

20     in the area of Mala Krusa, Randubrava, Jablanica, Nova Celle, Zagradska,

21     Hoca, as the incidents caused by the KLA, whereas it was allegedly

22     reported as events caused by the Serb forces?  These events I'm referring

23     to seem to have been initiated by KLA members and they occurred in the

24     environs of Prizren.

25        A.   Can you please make this question again.

Page 4849

 1        Q.   I referred to certain villages in the environs of Prizren.  I

 2     will not repeat them for the sake of time, but I will put a general

 3     question.  Do you have any information about the incidents, violent

 4     incidents caused by the KLA in the environs of Prizren in the villages I

 5     just referred to?

 6        A.   No, I have no information about that.  And the KLA did not exert

 7     any violence against Albanians or against civilians in general from what

 8     I have heard and read.

 9        Q.   The statement of the 14th of April, which was not signed and read

10     to the witness, could that be admitted into evidence, either in parts

11     that were presented to him or in total before I call up the next exhibit?

12                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

14             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  Thank you.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  That, Your Honours, will be assigned --

16             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  [Overlapping speakers] Thank you, Your Honour.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  -- [overlapping speakers] D00120.

18             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask for a 65 ter

19     document to be put up.  It is the Kosovo album, P615, page 48.  That

20     should be a map of Prizren town.

21             Could we enlarge it a bit, please?

22             JUDGE PARKER:  While that is happening, could I mention for the

23     transcript that page 22, line 10, the statement of the 14th of April,

24     1999, was made Exhibit D00120.

25             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 4850

 1        Q.   Mr. Beqiraj, do you see the map in front of you on the screen?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   I would kindly ask the usher to assist Mr. Beqiraj and provide

 4     him with an electronic pen.

 5             Mr. Beqiraj, given that you reside in Prizren, I suppose that the

 6     next few questions will not be difficult for you.  Could you please put a

 7     1 next to the place where your house was, next to the road

 8     Djakovica-Prizren.  Could we see the approximate location of your house

 9     on this map.

10        A.   I can't find it here.

11        Q.   Do you recognise the parts of the town?  Does this map enable you

12     to do so?  Could you please mark the centre of town for me.  Mark it with

13     a circle and put an X in it.  Where's the centre of town?

14        A.   It's very unclear here in the map, I think.

15        Q.   Unclear.  I see.  I don't have another Prizren map, and I don't

16     think we could find another one in the Kosovo atlas.

17        A.   Frankly speaking, I find it hard to find it.  I'm afraid I can

18     give you the wrong information, misplace the centre, that's why I

19     hesitate to do it.

20        Q.   Can you read the names of the parts of the town in white?  I

21     don't know whether you can make them out.

22        A.   Yes.  Now, yes.

23        Q.   My assistant will try to come up with a better map, if possible.

24             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise to the Chamber for

25     the time we're using on this, particularly in view of the fact that I

Page 4851

 1     promised to conclude my cross-examination in the course of the first

 2     session.

 3             We definitely don't have another map.  I will press on then.

 4        Q.   Between the 24th and the 28th of March, you and your family went

 5     to Prizren and back to your house on several occasions.  When I say

 6     Prizren, I mean the centre of town, to your uncle.  And you also

 7     travelled back to your home.

 8             In the course of the four days, did you or your family members

 9     face any unpleasant situations?  Were there any incidents on the way to

10     the uncle's house and back?

11        A.   When we decided to leave together with the family, I explained

12     also yesterday that in the village, that in our neighbourhood there were

13     only four families that had remained.  The others had fled out of fear of

14     something terrible happening.  Then we, too, decided to leave in the

15     direction of the city to go to some of our relatives living in the centre

16     of the town.

17             While we were walking on the side-streets to enter the centre of

18     the city, we left at about 7.00.  When we passed the main road,

19     Prizren-Gjakove main road, we hurried in order not to be detected by the

20     Serb forces, because we were afraid we might fall victim to them.  And

21     very soon we passed the road.  We entered the side-street to go where we

22     wanted to go.

23             While we were walking along these side-streets, some family

24     members came out of their houses and saw us walking, and we also heard

25     some shots at 8.00 in the evening.  We heard that NATO had struck some

Page 4852

 1     military barracks.  And these people told us, "Don't continue, because

 2     you might fall victims."  That's why we stopped and spent the night in

 3     some house there.

 4             We heard various fire -- fires being -- rifles being shot at

 5     these houses.  The bullets hit the walls of this house, broke some glass.

 6     And it was a horrible night for us, but there was no other solution for

 7     us.  We had to stay that night there.

 8        Q.   I will limit myself only to the most important questions and cut

 9     down on the rest of them.

10             As you were moving towards the Albanian border on the tractor

11     trailer, you mentioned some escort and other things, including many of

12     the things contained in the statement given to the OTP.  Can you tell us

13     this:  On the left and the right-hand side of the road, did you notice

14     that both sides of the road towards Morina were mined?  When I say that,

15     I'm not asking whether you saw the mines themselves, but did you see any

16     signs which said "Mines," any markings pointing to the fact that the area

17     had been mined on your way to the Albanian border?

18        A.   No, I did not see any such signs.  I can recount here very

19     frankly some story I heard from some other people.  Because among the

20     forces, the Serb forces, there were some good people.  A policeman or a

21     military, I don't know who he was, had advised this person not to walk

22     along on the -- on the side of the street because it was mined.  But

23     these -- such people were very few, but I did -- other than that, I

24     didn't see any signs showing that the zone was mined.  That's why I'm

25     saying -- frankly speaking, this is what I heard from someone else.

Page 4853

 1             When we returned from Albania, I saw that the streets were mined.

 2     The asphalt road was destroyed in several places.  From Morina to Prizren

 3     there were traces showing that the streets -- the area had been mined.

 4        Q.   You will agree with me when I say that there were no visible

 5     signs on the -- by the side of the road, that the nearby area on your way

 6     to the border was mined?  There were no signs.

 7        A.   There were holes.  It was mined, but there were no signs showing

 8     that it is mined.  This is what I heard from others, but I also saw these

 9     holes myself when I came back.

10        Q.   I'm asking you this because it is unclear to me what the need was

11     to have an escort.  If it was general knowledge that there were mines

12     around, no one in their right mind would stray from the street or the

13     road.  That is why I was asking you.

14             Before I conclude, I wanted to ask you this:  Yesterday you

15     mentioned verbal abuse that you suffered in the hands of the Serbs, and

16     some gestures they made.  They said things to the effect, "Where is your

17     KLA now?  Where is your NATO and Thaqi now?"

18             At that time, what was the status of Thaqi?  How well known may

19     he have been to the Serb forces at the time?  There was someone else

20     there who was much more prominent as regards the Albanian population at

21     the time, I believe.

22        A.   To my recollection, at that time Thaqi was one of the most

23     prominent figures in the KLA.  He was also present in the negotiations.

24     This is from what I saw on television and also after the war when he

25     became more well known.  So people knew who he was.

Page 4854

 1        Q.   I noticed that your wife's maiden name is Thaqi.  Am I right?

 2        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 3        Q.   Is she Hasim Thaqi's cousin?

 4        A.   No, she's not.  There are many families in Kosova that bear this

 5     last name, but she has got nothing to do with Thaqi's family.  In every

 6     town or in every village there are families by this last name.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Beqiraj.

 8             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will make good on

 9     my promise and conclude my cross-examination.  I believe it is also the

10     time for the break.  There may have been some questions that I believe

11     may have illustrated the situation better, but I tried to cut down my

12     cross-examination.  Therefore, I decided not to put them.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

14             Ms. Gopalan, do you need re-examination?

15             MS. GOPALAN:  Yes, I do, Your Honours.  My estimate would be

16     around 15 minutes.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  We will break now.  Could I ask you to confine

18     your cross-examination more than that.

19             MS. GOPALAN:  I'll do my best.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Just look at the matters that are important, and

21     the political history is not something that is going to determine any of

22     the issues on this indictment --

23             MS. GOPALAN:  Thank you are for your guidance.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  -- I make that clear.

25             Could I also mention for the assistance of all prosecuting

Page 4855

 1     counsel that there has been developing a tendency with recent witnesses

 2     of tendering a statement and then spending a very long time going through

 3     parts of that statement with the witness.  We have been losing time

 4     unnecessarily with that.  There, of course, will be matters that need

 5     clarification or amplification in some statements, but there is no value

 6     in terms of our proceedings in having a witness just go over again,

 7     perhaps only for emphasis, matters that are already dealt with in the

 8     statement which is exhibited.

 9             The purpose of Rule 92 bis and ter is to shorten proceedings by

10     the use of a written statement in lieu of evidence, not as a further way

11     of giving the same evidence.  So we would like all prosecuting counsel to

12     be aware of that.

13             We must have our first break now.  For tape and other reasons we

14     need half an hour.  We will resume at 11.00.

15                           --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Ms. Gopalan, re-examination.

18                           Re-examination by Ms. Gopalan:

19        Q.   Good morning, sir.  I just have a few --

20        A.   Good morning.

21        Q.   -- questions remaining for you today, and this is the first group

22     just in relation to your personal experiences of the education system as

23     a teacher and as a student, and if I could ask you to confine your

24     answers to your own experiences.

25             Now, at page 4823, you were asked about the parallel education

Page 4856

 1     system, and you said, "We wanted to enroll in the normal education

 2     system, but the police surrounded the premises and did not allow us to

 3     enter these premises."

 4             Did you experience this yourself, the premises you were in being

 5     surrounded by the police?

 6        A.   Yes.  This is true.  On the 1st of October, the new academic year

 7     was supposed to begin.  I had only been admitted -- I had already been

 8     admitted to this faculty, and we were denied entry to the high

 9     pedagogical school in Prizren.  The premises were surrounded by Serb

10     forces.  The students' union held a speech in our presence in an effort

11     to make up their mind so as they would be allowed to enter the school

12     premises.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Just to clarify, sir, when you say the 1st of

14     October, could you tell us which year that was in?

15        A.   1st of October, 2001, if I'm not mistaken.

16        Q.   Okay.

17        A.   The Serb forces surrounded us --

18        Q.   Just to clarify, did you just say the 1st of October, 2001?

19        A.   I apologise.  1991.  That's a mistake on my part.  The students

20     who held that speech were arrested afterwards.

21        Q.   Thank you.  And when you say the high pedagogical school, what

22     level of education was this institute?  You refer to a faculty as well.

23     Was this a school?  Was this a university?  If you could just clarify

24     that for us.

25        A.   It was of a faculty level.  It belonged to university of

Page 4857

 1     Prishtina.  People of different ethnicities used to study in that

 2     facility.  It's a higher education institution.

 3        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Later on in your testimony you speak about being

 4     educated in a private home, and you say that you were often -- or "We

 5     were often subjected to police assaults, raids.  They came and

 6     confiscated school materials and so on."

 7             Now, these police assaults and raids, again is this something you

 8     yourself experienced?

 9        A.   I heard of some of the raids, and we managed to escape one of the

10     raids thanks to a professor of ours.  Just before this raid was carried

11     out, we abandoned the facility.  During these raids, professors and

12     students were arrested.  Their student booklets were seized.  Other

13     materials were seized.

14             We didn't feel safe in the areas where we studied or taught.  It

15     happened occasionally that we would try to find safer areas to carry out

16     our studies and teaching.

17        Q.   Thank you, sir.  And when you refer to the facility that you

18     abandoned just prior to the raid, could you clarify, if you remember,

19     when it was that you had to abandon this facility, and if you could also

20     explain what this facility was.

21        A.   This was a mosque hall.  The mosque allowed us to use this hall

22     for teaching purposes.  This happened in 1993, to my recollection.

23        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, just moving on to my final topic.  These

24     are the events that took place round about the time of the NATO bombing.

25             You were asked some questions by my learned counsel about your

Page 4858

 1     movement from Prizren town centre and back to your home between the dates

 2     of the 24th to the 28th of March, and you say that you passed along the

 3     main road - and this is the Prizren-Gjakove main road - and you hide on

 4     in order not to be detected by the Serb forces.  And I quote here, you

 5     say:

 6             "Because we were afraid we might fall victim to them."

 7             Now, when you say "we might fall victim to them," could you

 8     clarify for us, please, what it is you were afraid of of falling victim

 9     to.

10        A.   The situation itself we found ourselves at that time for months,

11     the hatred towards us after the NATO bombing commenced, the Serb forces

12     hated us and started to behave savagely.  We heard of people disappearing

13     in mysterious circumstances, people whose fates remained unknown.  This

14     is the truth, and that's why we were afraid that we would fall victim to

15     the same things.

16        Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. Beqiraj.  I do not have any further

17     questions for you.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much, Ms. Gopalan.

19             Mr. Beqiraj, you'll be pleased to know that that concludes the

20     questions for you.  The Chamber would like to thank you for coming to The

21     Hague and for the assistance that you have been able to give to us.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're very welcome, Your Honours.

23     I have a request.  I would like to ask a question.  I don't expect an

24     answer from any of you, but I would just ask you for permission to ask

25     this question.

Page 4859

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For years, I heard the saying that

 3     Kosova was the cradle of Serbia.  I always found it difficult to

 4     understand how it was possible for the cradle of Serbia to be in Kosova

 5     and for the children of Serbia to be raised in Serbia.

 6             Thank you very much.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Nobody will be attempting to deal with that issue.

 8     The court officer will assist you out.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just wanted to ask the question,

10     Your Honours.  I didn't ask for any answers.  Thank you very much for

11     this opportunity.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14                           [The witness withdrew]

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Behar.

16             MR. BEHAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  The next witness will be

17     Mr. Hyseni, and I believe he can be brought in just as we change seats

18     here and get ready.

19                           [The witness entered court]

20                           WITNESS:  BEDRI HYSENI

21                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the

25     card that is given to you.

Page 4860

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 2     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Please sit down.  Mr. Behar has some

 4     questions for you.

 5                           Examination by Mr. Behar:

 6        Q.   Good morning, sir.  Could you --

 7        A.   Good morning to you, sir.

 8        Q.   Could you please state your full name and your date of birth for

 9     the record.

10        A.   My name is Bedri Hyseni.  I was born on the 16th of October,

11     1960.

12        Q.   I understand, sir, that you are a Kosovar Albanian, that you were

13     born in Ferizaj but have lived thereafter in the village of Biba in the

14     Urosevac municipality; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes, that's correct.  That's where I still live.

16        Q.   I understand, sir, that you gave an initial statement to the

17     Office of the Prosecutor on the 8th of May, 1999, about the events that

18     you experienced in Kosovo and that you provided a second statement to the

19     Office of the Prosecutor on the 27th of August, 2001, and the 1st of

20     September, 2001; is that correct?

21        A.   That's correct, yes.

22        Q.   And have you had an opportunity to read those statements before

23     coming to court today?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   I understand that there are a couple of things that you'd like to

Page 4861

 1     correct in your statements so that they accurately reflect your evidence.

 2             MR. BEHAR:  Can I have up on the screen 65 ter number 2270,

 3     please.  And we'll need actually -- it'll be page 3 of your second

 4     statement, which will be -- it's page 8 of the PDF file, I believe.

 5        Q.   At page 3, this is page 3 of your second statement, at paragraph

 6     3 the first sentence reads:

 7              "From 1991 until 1994, I was an activist for the Council for the

 8     Defence of Human Rights and Freedoms."

 9             Is that correct or is a change required?

10        A.   I would like to make a correction.  I was an activist with the

11     Council for the Defence of Human Rights and Freedoms until 1999, from

12     1991 to 1999.

13        Q.   Thank you.  On that same page in the English, it's paragraph 5.

14     The second sentence reads:

15             "He was arrested sometime in 1994 or 1995 and sentenced to eight

16     years' imprisonment on charges of terrorism."

17             Is that correct or is a change required there?

18        A.   He was arrested in 1993 and spent six years in prison.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And with those changes having been made, are you

20     satisfied that the information that's contained in your statements is

21     true and accurate to the best of your knowledge and belief?

22        A.   Yes.  It's accurate to the best of my knowledge and belief.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. BEHAR:  Your Honours, would I seek to tender those statements

25     and the entire 92 bis package.

Page 4862

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  What do you mean by the entire 92 bis package.

 2             MR. BEHAR:  Sorry, I just meant to explain that the statements

 3     are together in one package under that 65 ter, which is 02270.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  The statements will be received as separate

 5     exhibits.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  The first one, Your Honours, under -- dated the

 7     8th May, 1999, will be assigned P00808.  And the second one with the date

 8     27th of August, 2001, and the 1st of September, 2001 would be assigned

 9     P00809.

10             MR. BEHAR:  Thank you.

11        Q.   Sir, do you recall testifying at the trial of Milutinovic et al

12     on the 11th of September, 2006?

13        A.   Yes.  It was on the 11th of September, 2006 that I testified in

14     the trial of Milosevic -- correction, Milutinovic et al.

15        Q.   And have you had a chance to review the transcript of your

16     testimony in that trial?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   I understand that there are a few clarifications that you'd like

19     to make as well with respect to what was recorded in that transcript.

20     Can I have up 65 ter number 05079.  And this will be at page 3092.

21             Sir, at -- at lines 1 to 5 of this page you were asked:

22             "And I understand you're married with three children?"

23             And to this question you answered --

24        A.   Yes.  A change is needed here as well.  I'm married and I have

25     four children.  I apologise for interrupting you.

Page 4863

 1        Q.   That's no problem, sir.  Thank you.  At page 3109 -- I'll just

 2     wait a moment while that's brought up.  At lines 10 to 11 the transcript

 3     states:

 4             "And in February 1999, a collective sentence of 289 months of

 5     imprisonment was determined."

 6             Is there a clarification that you would like to make there?

 7        A.   Yes.  Not 289 months but 289 years.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  At page 3112.  I'll again just wait a moment while

 9     that's brought up.  It states at line 13 and 14:

10             "There are two cooperatives there, an agricultural one and one

11     for bees."

12             Is there something you would like to explain or clarify about

13     that?

14        A.   It's not a cooperative for bees, but the name of the cooperative

15     is "Bleta," which in English is bees.

16        Q.   Thank you.  And lastly, if we could have up page 3114.  At lines

17     3 to 5 it states:

18             "They bombed the barracks in Ferizaj and some tanks in Komogllave

19     village from the road that goes to Fshati i Vjeter to Postojni."

20             Is there a clarification you would like to make with respect to

21     that?

22        A.   There is no locality called Postoni.  What I men here was

23     Fshati i Vjeter and Rruga e Shkupit or the Skopje road.

24        Q.   Thank you.  And with those clarifications having been made, does

25     the transcript now accurately reflect your evidence and would you testify

Page 4864

 1     to those same facts today?

 2        A.   I didn't understand you.  Can you please repeat your question?

 3        Q.   Yes, sir.  I'm just asking that now that we've made those

 4     clarifications, does the transcript accurately reflect your evidence, and

 5     would you testify to those same facts again today?

 6        A.   Yes, yes, it does accurately reflect my evidence.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MR. BEHAR:  Your Honours, I would seek, please, to tender that

 9     transcript.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  And that, Your Honours, will be assigned P00810.

12             MR. BEHAR:  I would also seek to tender one exhibit that was

13     associated with Mr. Hyseni's testimony, that was 05080, and it is a map

14     from the Kosovo atlas that was marked by the witness when he testified.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  And that, Your Honours, will be assigned P00811.

17             MR. BEHAR:  I can now provide a brief summary of Mr. Hyseni's

18     evidence.

19             Mr. Hyseni has a law degree and was a member of the Human Rights

20     Council in Urosevac.  He has explained the ongoing persecution of Kosovar

21     Albanians and described how his human rights worker colleagues were

22     imprisoned and even killed for their human rights work on behalf of the

23     Albanian population.  He describes that police and police reservists

24     manned check-points on the local roads, that approximately one month

25     prior to NATO bombing the military moved in, and that the military and

Page 4865

 1     police armed the Serb civilian populace.

 2             Mr. Hyseni describes observations of the actions and deployments

 3     of Serb forces beginning with the commencement of the NATO bombing on the

 4     24th of March, 1999 as he moved from his hometown of Biba to Sojevo, and

 5     then as he was forced to hide in the mountains along with other Albanian

 6     villagers.  He describes Serb forces attacking Sojevo burning 90 per cent

 7     of the civilian homes and forcing civilians out.

 8             He describes travelling in a convoy to Urosevac, being sent back

 9     by police to Gnjilan, but instead himself going to Slatina where he

10     remained for 12 days.  He will describe the conditions in Slatina where

11     thousands of Kosovar Albanian refugees arrived.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please slow down for the

13     interpretation.  Thank you.

14             MR. BEHAR:  Yes.  Thank you.

15             Fearing what would happen, Mr. Hyseni returned to Urosevac where

16     conditions were terrible.  He spent five days there before boarding a bus

17     that was moving Kosovar Albanians across the border to Macedonia.  He

18     describes being stopped by VJ and police at a check-point in Kacanik,

19     continuing to the border at Djeneral Jankovic, and making observations of

20     a large police presence there before leaving the country on April 27th

21     and 28th.

22             That is the end of the summary.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

24             MR. BEHAR:

25        Q.   Sir, I have some brief questions for you in the time that I have

Page 4866

 1     remaining.  Picking up somewhat into your -- the account of what

 2     happened, after your observations and experiences in Sojevo, you

 3     described escaping from Sojevo with your family on the 6th of April and

 4     going into the mountains.  You described joining about 200 villagers

 5     there, and you described in your second statement that this group of

 6     people then split into two groups and that your group managed to get away

 7     without being noticed, but that this other second group you describe

 8     being robbed and forced to walk to Urosevac.

 9             My question is can you explain to the Court how it is that you

10     know what happened to this second group?

11        A.   This occurred on the 6th of April, that is, during the NATO

12     bombing.  A paramilitary and police expedition, supported by the regular

13     VJ soldiers that were deployed at the school building, undertook an

14     operation first in the Limanaj neighbourhood.  They killed two persons

15     there, Hamit Halimi and Qerim Havazi and expelled the entire population

16     from that neighbourhood by setting the houses on fire and burning 90 per

17     cent of them.

18             The same group of forces continued and advanced towards my

19     neighbourhood where I was at the time, the neighbourhood of Shukri Begu

20     or Sulaj neighbourhood.  There, the paramilitaries and the police burned

21     the houses, killed my uncle on my mother's side, Nazir Nebihu and Hazira

22     Nebihu.

23        Q.   Sir, let me just stop you there for a moment if I can.  I know we

24     have -- we have this account from your statement and from your testimony

25     as well.  I just wanted to focus, if I could, on the question of these

Page 4867

 1     groups, and you described this single group that you were in of about 200

 2     villagers.  You described that being divided into two groups, and then

 3     you described what happened to that second group.  And my specific

 4     question for you is:  How is it that you knew what happened to the second

 5     group?

 6        A.   I thought I was supposed to describe the entire event, but from

 7     what I see, you want to know about the other group.  I will explain.

 8             Initially we were about 200 civilians, elderly people, women,

 9     children at the end of the village the group was divided in two parts.

10     One part set out in the direction of Komogllave village in the vicinity

11     of the forest.  The other part where my family members were -- were sent

12     to another part, to a forest in a place called Ljubizanis [phoen].  When

13     the paramilitaries set -- set fire to the houses, they saw the other

14     group and were -- went there.  We could see from the place we were how

15     they behaved.  They were looted, men separated from women and ordered to

16     continue on foot towards Ferizaj, because otherwise they would have been

17     killed by the police.

18             Novica Mijovic was the one who had told the population this.  In

19     order to understand the situation better, some of the people from the

20     column tried to flee the column and entered the forest and came back to

21     our group because they were members of some families that were in our

22     group.  So they were the ones who told us what happened, how they had

23     been looted, taken away their jewels and every valuable they had on them.

24     That was how I came to learn about it.

25        Q.   Thank you.  So just to be clear, sir, then, am I understanding

Page 4868

 1     right that there were people from this second group who experienced the

 2     things that you described who then rejoined your group afterwards?

 3        A.   Yes, that's how it was.

 4        Q.   I see.  And I see you've mentioned that there were members of

 5     some of the same families.  So were you personally able to speak to some

 6     of these people when they returned to your group as well?

 7        A.   Yes.  Yes.  We all talked to them.  We are a group of 80 persons,

 8     and we talked.  I personally talked with them.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  You explained, sir, that instead of -- well, perhaps

10     I'll put that a different way.  You explained staying in Slatina for 10

11     to 12 days, and you -- you explained in your statement -- you described

12     that there were more than 10.000 people who passed through there in the

13     time that you were there.  Can you explain to the Court what the

14     conditions were like in Slatina in those 10 or 12 days that you spent

15     there?

16        A.   The conditions in Sllatine were somewhat good, but with the

17     growing number of people coming from Gnjilane, Viti, Ferizaj

18     municipalities, the situation deteriorated, and we started to lack the

19     most elementary things, like foodstuffs and other things.  So all this

20     large concentration of population created a humanitarian crisis

21     situation.

22        Q.   You described previously that on the 22nd of April of 1999, you

23     travelled to Urosevac, and you explained that you did that to take care

24     of your father-in-law and your brother-in-law and also because you

25     described what you were -- that you were worried about what might happen

Page 4869

 1     in Slatina.  Can you explain to the Court what it was that you were

 2     worried would happen in Slatina?

 3        A.   Yes.  Because of the large concentration of people there, over

 4     10.000 people, there was -- that was the estimate, those who took down

 5     numbers and trying to take care of them, the police often came about that

 6     area and looted some good cars from the villagers.  This was a reason

 7     that made me leave the place, because I started fearing for the worst.

 8     In fact, it had already started to happen since all that population was

 9     driven out and the young people were imprisoned in Viti.

10             I left Sllatine also because my father-in-law and my

11     brother-in-law, on the second night of the air-strikes, if I'm not

12     mistaken, were injured by a shell thrown by the Serb army from the

13     barracks, because their house is situated near the barracks.

14             Since my wife knew nothing of what had happened, I had learned it

15     from the television report, I knew what happened and instead of sending

16     my wife, I thought it would be better, more viable, if I went, and I

17     could provide some assistance to them.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Sir.  I'd like to ask you a question about Urosevac

19     or Ferizaj, the town, and the time you spent there.  You say in your

20     statement that conditions were terrible.  Are you able to describe what

21     those conditions were and why you make that characterization?

22        A.   I made that characterization because in the city neighbourhoods I

23     saw in -- not only in the Lodja area neighbourhood where there were

24     Albanians, but in general circulation was forbidden.  In the other -- the

25     other neighbourhoods were free of people because the population had been

Page 4870

 1     driven out.  In some parts of the town where I could go, because I didn't

 2     go all over the town, I saw the presence of the army, the police,

 3     paramilitaries, dressed in their specific clothes, long hair, and so on,

 4     painted in their faces, but the worst thing was because there was

 5     constant shooting and the kids were scared.

 6        Q.   Sir, in your second statement you also describe that on the 27th

 7     of April of 1999, you went with a group to the Urosevac bus station where

 8     you saw four buses filled with people, and you described boarding one of

 9     those buses.  Do you know, sir, whether those buses were arranged by Serb

10     forces or by Albanians?  Are you able to explain that?  If you know.

11        A.   Of course they were arranged by the Serb forces, because the road

12     to Skopje doesn't -- doesn't employ four or five buses.  The bus lines

13     had its own buses once a day, maybe, but that what happened was done

14     deliberately.  They wanted to use buses and trains to get rid of the

15     population.  I was one who travelled by bus.

16        Q.   Can you explain who was driving those buses?

17        A.   The drivers were all Serbs.

18        Q.   And what was the ethnicity of the passengers?

19        A.   You -- Albanian, of course.

20        Q.   Thank you.  You described in your statement and in your testimony

21     that your bus was stopped in Kacanik at a check-point.  Can you explain

22     who was manning that check-point?

23        A.   At the entry to Kacanik there was a check-point and the bus was

24     stopped there.  It was manned by a large group of policemen dressed in a

25     strange uniform, a uniform of 1979, 1980, 1981, I would say.  They had a

Page 4871

 1     light blue ribbon on their army, and there were two reservists, and I

 2     knew both.  One was a financial inspector.  Fisekovic his last name is.

 3     The other one sold bread, and he was my generation.  He was a baker, but

 4     I don't know his name.

 5        Q.   Sir, you also described then the bus continuing on to Djeneral

 6     Jankovic or Hani i Elezit, and you described that when you arrived there

 7     there were numerous policemen there.  Can you explain, sir, what those

 8     police were doing that you observed?

 9        A.   These police stood in groups of three mostly, and that long

10     convoy of Albanian refugees that was being driven out was escorted by

11     them along the asphalt road.  They stood about 300 to 400 metres far from

12     the column and ordered them to cross the border in groups of ten.  So

13     when a family had more than ten, it had to leave two kids behind and then

14     cross it in groups.  They gave orders to the refugees what to do.

15        Q.   Can you give us an idea, sir, about roughly how many police you

16     observed there?  And was this a large group of police?  Was it a small

17     group of police?

18        A.   How can I say?  They, as I said, were divided in groups of three.

19     Maybe over 30, I suppose.  There were a lot of policemen there.

20        Q.   Thank you.  And did the police appear to be organised in their

21     actions, in your view?

22        A.   Yes, they appeared to be organised.  They were dressed in the

23     typical police uniform, dark blue camouflage uniforms.

24        Q.   When you were stationed there, sir, when you spent your time

25     there, were you able to hear any orders being issued between police?

Page 4872

 1        A.   I didn't hear any orders being given between them.  I wasn't

 2     actually interested to hear what was going on among them.  The only order

 3     I heard was that we had to form groups of ten, not more than ten members,

 4     but as to who gave the order, I don't know.  It was probably a chain of

 5     command giving the orders.

 6        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Those are my questions for you, and now my

 7     learned friend from the Defence will have some questions for you as well.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Behar.

 9             Mr. Djordjevic.

10             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I need some time to

11     prepare.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  While that's happening, Mr. Behar, there was an

13     amendment to the statement which was Exhibit 809.  That was an amendment

14     made, I think, in January 2002.  Are you wanting that tendered as well?

15             MR. BEHAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  I would also seek to tender that.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  That will be received.

17             MR. BEHAR:  Thank you.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  And that, Your Honours, will be assigned P00812.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Djordjevic:

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Hyseni.  My name is Dragoljub

22     Djordjevic.  I appear on behalf of the accused in this case.

23             Mr. Hyseni, first of all, I'd like to deal with the

24     misunderstanding.  In your brief 65 ter summary that we received in

25     writing from the Prosecutor, the Prosecutor put down that you entered

Page 4873

 1     Macedonia on the 27th or the 28th of June, 1999.  Do you agree with me

 2     that it was actually in April 1999?

 3        A.   It was in April, yes.  It is a misunderstanding.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Your first statement was provided on the 8th of May,

 5     1999, that is to say -- say while the operation in Kosovo was still under

 6     way.  Can you tell us how you were contacted by OTP or Tribunal

 7     representatives in Macedonia?

 8        A.   How I was contacted?

 9        Q.   Yes.

10        A.   The OTP contacted me because I was in the capacity of the

11     refugee.  I was stationed in Stankovac 1, if I'm not mistaken.  I met

12     them, and I described the situation to them, the event to them.  I gave

13     the first statement.  And in order to give such a statement -- I think I

14     had the right to give such a statement in order to give an accurate

15     account of what I'd seen.

16        Q.   What did you do after 1991?  Where did your income come from?

17        A.   After 1991, I won my income from a private firm I had.  I dealt

18     with production -- I -- actually, I involved in a work as a carpenter.

19        Q.   You completed your studies at the age of 31 in 1990 or 1991, if

20     I'm not mistaken.  You were married in 1986.  How did you finance your

21     studies?

22        A.   I was not married in 1996.  I was married in 1986.  And it's a

23     fact that I graduated in 1991.  There was only one exam left for me.  I

24     started in 1985, 1986.  1987 I finish the army in Postojna.  But seeing

25     that there were no jobs for Albanians, I -- at that moment I felt I had

Page 4874

 1     to interrupt the studies, which I resumed at a later time.

 2        Q.   You just told us you served your military term in Postojna.  What

 3     was your military speciality?  Which aspect of the army and what were you

 4     trained in?

 5        A.   I did my military service in Postojna in Slovenia, in

 6     the infantry brigade.  I was a shooter, "strelac" in Serbian.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Did you try to find work only in the town where you

 8     lived, or did you seek employment elsewhere in the territory of the

 9     former Socialist Federal Serbian Republic of Yugoslavia as of the moment

10     when you completed your studies?

11        A.   When I completed my studies, I did not seek work because the

12     place where I graduated discriminated Albanian employees.  Nobody was

13     allowed to work with the exception of those who would recognise Serbia as

14     their own state.  I believe you know such things, things that happened in

15     1989.  When Kosova was deprived of its status.  So I registered my firm,

16     and I minded my own business as a private entrepreneur.

17        Q.   My question was this:  Did you try to look for work outside the

18     territory of the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija to find work

19     as a lawyer?

20        A.   No, I did not.

21        Q.   In your statement you say that there were certain regulations in

22     place which were introduced, as you put it, at the expense of the Kosovo

23     Albanians due to which they could no longer find employment.  I would not

24     ask you this question if you were not lawyer, but given that you are,

25     could you tell it us what regulation are you referring to?

Page 4875

 1        A.   I am referring to well-known regulations introduced in 1991.  The

 2     factories were closed down to Albanian workers.  The police no longer

 3     employed Albanian officers who were employed there before.  They were

 4     dismissed.  Even -- if someone wanted to work, if he was working, they

 5     had to sign a certain statement which said that Kosova was called Kosova

 6     and Metohija and to recognise the Serbian state, which Albanians didn't

 7     want to do or refused to do.  And all the factories, as I said, and other

 8     workplaces were banned for Albanians.  They were blocked by police forces

 9     who prevented Albanian workers from entering the premises.  This is what

10     rules I referred to.  These were the rules imposed by Serbia.

11        Q.   Mr. Hyseni, you spoke about this, and we have that in your

12     written statement, but that was not my question, however.  Now you are

13     talking about a possible way of behaviour that may have occurred at that

14     time, but I'm asking you as a lawyer.  Can you cite a single rule or

15     regulation which would prohibit Albanians from finding work in the

16     territory of Kosovo?

17        A.   I told you I didn't see any actual act or rule because I was not

18     employed in the state bodies, but the very fact that Albanians reported

19     to work and were dismissed from work, it was -- it must have been based

20     on a rule which Serbia used.  I had family members, uncles, cousins, who

21     were employed and whose work relationship was cancelled, exterminated.

22             You know that when somebody's employed, you have to undergo a

23     certain procedure.

24        Q.   At page 2 of your statement of the 27th of August, 2001, you say

25     that Albanians received a document that they were supposed to sign

Page 4876

 1     accepting certain rules of the Republic of Serbia.  You said today that

 2     it -- it stated that Kosovo was to be called Kosovo and Metohija and some

 3     other things.  Can you tell us, did you ever see such a document with

 4     your own eyes, and, if so, please describe it for us.

 5        A.   I told you I didn't see it myself, because in order to see such a

 6     document, a Albanian had to go to his place of work and sign the document

 7     in order to go back to work to continue working.  But I told you that

 8     some of my family members were dismissed from work unless they agreed

 9     to -- to sign this document.  I suppose I was clear.  I said I didn't see

10     it with my own eyes.

11        Q.   Did any of your relatives, having lost their employment due to

12     not signing such a document, tell you what the document actually said?

13        A.   They didn't give me any details, but they only said that the

14     headline said the -- the Serb state and that the Kosova is an autonomous

15     province was called Kosovo and Metohija, which we as Albanians didn't

16     recognise, didn't accept, because Kosova had its own status.  It was to

17     its detriment.  As it was detrimentally affected by the revocation of its

18     status, by the forceful revocation of its status.  You, I believe,

19     remember that this happened with approval of members who were not even

20     members of parliament at all.

21        Q.   Mr. Hyseni, we're not so interested in political issues here, and

22     if -- in the extent that you talked about those matters as facts, so I'm

23     not going to go into that, but I just wanted to ask you this:  Do you

24     know, and would you agree with me, that the parliament of the autonomous

25     province which existed when the vote was held on the constitution of the

Page 4877

 1     autonomous province of Kosovo and Metohija comprised mostly members of

 2     the Albanian ethnic group?  Would you agree with me?

 3        A.   Yes, it comprised mostly Albanian -- Albanians, but there were

 4     also Serbs, but it was called Kosova and not Kosovo-Metohija.  It was

 5     called Kosova, not Kosovo and Metohija.  Then you invented that other

 6     syndrome.  It has to be eliminated.  Kosova has been, is and will remain

 7     Kosova.

 8        Q.   What name is that?  Is the word "Dukagjin" an Albanian word or a

 9     Serbian word?  What does "Dukagjin" mean?  How would you be able to say

10     that?  Does that mean Metohija?

11        A.   Dukagjin is an Albanian word.  When Serbia uses Metohija, it

12     refers to the religious heritage in Kosova.  These churches were defended

13     for centuries by Albanians.  It was the Vojvoda family in Decan that

14     defended the church there.  The Serbs seem to forget that Albanians

15     belonged to three different religious faiths.  To name a country with

16     that religious reference is not right.  Kosova's name is Kosova, and it

17     is recognised as such by international conventions and now as an

18     independent state.  And it is in conformity with the ruling democracies

19     in the world.

20        Q.   Mr. Hyseni, do you know what the name of the autonomous province

21     was before 1974?

22        A.   Kosova.

23        Q.   And Metohija.

24        A.   What I know is that it was referred earlier as Kosmet or Kosovo

25     and Metohija just to give rise to Serb nationalism, but that name is not

Page 4878

 1     correct.  Kosova was always Kosova and still is.  That is the adequate

 2     name of the country.

 3        Q.   We're not going to dwell on this anymore.  I would just like to

 4     remind you that Metohija is a word of Greek origin.  We're not going to

 5     discuss this anymore.

 6             Can you please tell me, in relation to the Albanian workers in

 7     the territory of Kosovo from 1991 until 1999, they were not employed in

 8     state factories or in factories, in state bodies and institutions?

 9        A.   That's correct.  They were not employed because they had been

10     previously expelled from work and denied their constitutional right to

11     employment, their freedom to choose their own employment.  They were not

12     employed, because they were discriminated.

13        Q.   Not a single Albanian was employed?

14        A.   I'm not saying all of them.  There were still some who --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  We ask not to overlap.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- employed, but this number was

17     small.  Those who were loyal to the Serbian policies.

18             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   When you say a small number, are you aware that in the territory

20     of the municipality of Urosevac, over 700 Albanian employees worked in

21     state institutions alone?  Do you know about this information?  Seven

22     hundred employees in state institutions.  Do you know about this?  We're

23     talking about Urosevac.

24        A.   During this period in Ferizaj, more than 700 workers is

25     absolutely not true.  Those who were employed in the Serbian state

Page 4879

 1     institutions were known.  They were small in number.  They were not 700.

 2     You could count them by the fingers.

 3        Q.   On page 2, paragraph 5; page 3, paragraph 1 in the English and

 4     Albanian, you say that the objective of that was to abolish the status of

 5     Kosovo as a federal unit.

 6             Was Kosovo ever a federal unit as part of the Socialist Federal

 7     Republic of Yugoslavia?

 8        A.   Yes, sir.  The contusion of 1974 recognises Kosovo as a

 9     constitual part of the Yugoslav Federation.  It was a federal unit.  It

10     was a constituent part.  The socialist autonomous province of Kosova was

11     a constituent part of the Yugoslav Federation, and I support this claim

12     by the following fact:  The Presidency that was formed after the death of

13     Tito was such that every unit, federal unit, had a mandate of Presidency.

14             When I was a soldier in Postojna in 1987, the president of

15     Yugoslavia was Sinan Hasani who was from Kosova.  This fact argues what I

16     just said and what you put to me.  It supports the claim that Kosova had

17     had the status of a federal unit.  It had its MPs in the federal

18     parliament, and it had its mandate for a president.

19        Q.   And Kosovo was an autonomous province within which state?  Was it

20     within the Federal Republic -- Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

21     or the Socialist Federal Republic of Serbia, as it was called at the

22     time?

23        A.   It belonged to the Yugoslav Federation.

24        Q.   That's what it said?

25        A.   It had its own status.  It was part of the Yugoslav Federation.

Page 4880

 1        Q.   Did you ever read in its entirety the constitution of 1974?  I

 2     must ask you this.

 3        A.   Yes.  It is signed by Ilaz Kurteshi, who was at the time

 4     president of the Kosovan Assembly.  I did read it.

 5        Q.   And does it say that Kosovo is part of the Socialist Republic of

 6     Serbia as an autonomous province within that Republic?  Does that state

 7     in the constitution?  Did you read that or not?

 8        A.   That's what it states, but we were talking about federal units.

 9     Kosovo was a federal unit, and with the constitution of 1974 it had -- it

10     enjoyed equal rights as did the other republics.

11             After the political crisis in Yugoslavia and when it was

12     dissolved as a country, things changed.  If we continued to enjoy the

13     same rights as we did before the autonomy was revoked, we wouldn't have

14     had the problems and the disputes we had, and nothing would have happened

15     of what happened.

16        Q.   And as part of your work from 1991 until 1999 when you were in

17     the Council for the Defence of Human Rights and Freedoms, can you please

18     tell me what were the basic aims of that organisation in which you were

19     an activist?  Why?  What was the reason it was founded in Kosovo?  Was it

20     in order to protect and defend the human rights of all the citizens of

21     Kosovo or because of threatened civil rights of the Albanian ethnic

22     citizens of Kosovo?

23        A.   The Council for the Protection of Human Rights and Freedoms was

24     established sometime in 1989, 1990 by a great lawyer, well known in the

25     Balkans, Bajram Kelmendi, then Adem Demaci, Zeni Raguda [phoen], a worker

Page 4881

 1     of human rights, Pajazit Nushi, and many other intellectuals.  It had its

 2     branches in all the municipalities, towns and townlets of Kosova.  Its

 3     objectives and aim was very clear, to defend the human rights, mainly the

 4     rights of those citizens who were subjected to systematic violence

 5     exercised by the Serb regime.  So our activity was focussed on monitoring

 6     these cases of violence that were evidenced in every walk of life in

 7     Kosova.  The work was such that it demanded meetings to be convened once

 8     a week, usually on Saturdays.  We would collect information from people

 9     who were maltreated in police stations.  They would contact us, give us

10     information, although they were threatened by the police not to contact

11     us.  But they did.  We collected this information, compiled reports,

12     submitted them to the headquarters in Prishtina, and the headquarters in

13     Prishtina would then submit those reports to the Helsinki Committee, so

14     that to inform the international public about what was going on, about

15     the truth prevailing in Kosova at the time.

16        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Hyseni.  You have saved a few questions with your

17     very detailed and precise answer to my question.

18             Can you please tell me, is there council -- does this council

19     still exist today for the protection of human rights and freedoms in

20     Pristina and in other places?

21        A.   Yes.  The Council for the Protection of Human Rights still exists

22     in Prishtina.  It is led by Dr. Pajazit Nushi.  It also exists in other

23     towns but in smaller numbers.  There are usually coordinators in these

24     smaller towns, usually two persons that deal with property disputes and

25     other types of disputes.

Page 4882

 1        Q.   You said that in 1999, you stopped being active in this council

 2     for the protection of human rights.  What was the reason for that?

 3        A.   To tell you the truth, my activity in the field of human rights

 4     never ceased.  I still perform this activity.  However, in terms of the

 5     council and as an activist of that council, I stopped this activity

 6     because I was expelled.  I became refugee first in Macedonia, then I was

 7     moved to Manchester in the UK.  That's why I could no longer be an

 8     active -- activist of the council.  All the work we did at that time

 9     during the war was based on our free will.  It was voluntary work.

10        Q.   And where are you living right now, Mr. Hyseni?

11        A.   In Bibaj village.

12        Q.   In view of the fact that I heard from you today that this council

13     deals more with legal matters today, with resolving property issues and

14     so on, do you have any information that the council today works on the

15     protection of human rights of Serbs who have left Kosovo?  Does it deal

16     with matters of protection of their property and of their rights?

17        A.   From what I know, somewhere in Sterps [phoen], the Ferizaj branch

18     in Sterps dealt with these issues.  There was an employee from Prishtina

19     and another one from Ferizaj, lawyers by profession, who dealt with these

20     issues in the municipalities of Stimlje and Sterps, and I think that

21     these issues were resolved last year.

22        Q.   The transcript from the Milutinovic case, on page 3093, lines 11

23     to 13, in response to a question further to you, you replied that -- the

24     question was "If police and military forces of Serbia armed Serbian

25     civilians," you replied, "I didn't see that they were arming them."

Page 4883

 1             Can I conclude then that you don't have immediate information

 2     about what you said, that Serbian civilians were armed by the army and

 3     the police and that that is an assumption of yours and indirect

 4     knowledge, but that you don't have any direct knowledge about that, and

 5     can you say something else today?  Perhaps this is Exhibit P810.

 6        A.   To tell you the truth, all civilians, including Serb civilians --

 7     correction, Serb civilians, all of them were armed.  There were no Serbs

 8     in my village, but in other villages there were, and they were armed.

 9     Personally, I didn't see this.  I didn't see them being armed, but the

10     information circulating was such that they were being armed.

11             I didn't see the act of issuing weapons with my own eyes, but I

12     know this for a fact because I know the Serb population live -- that

13     lives in the area where I live.  Maybe not all of them by name, but by

14     sight I would say I know all of them.

15        Q.   Your statement of 1999, on page 3, paragraph 6 of the B/C/S, and

16     paragraph 2, page 3 of the English --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  And the counsel needs to repeat the Albanian

18     references.

19             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] -- you say something about the

20     paramilitary forces, and that is they all -- they coordinated everything

21     from the Ministry of Defence and the Ministry of the Interior.

22             Where do you get this information from, first that everything was

23     coordinated and conducted by the Ministry of Defence and the minister of

24     the interior, and I am going to continue with some more questions after I

25     guess your answer to this.

Page 4884

 1        A.   I didn't get information from anyone but from the acts of the

 2     paramilitary, military, and police forces of Republic of Serbia, the

 3     action that took part in part of Trstenik area.  I think it was called

 4     shoe horse -- Horseshoe operation, and from this operation I reached the

 5     conclusion that it was a coordination between the two forces.  The

 6     Ministry of Defence was in charge of the army, the Ministry of the

 7     Interior was in charge of the police.  To me it seemed like a single

 8     command and with -- with subordinated forces that acted under the orders

 9     of the single command.

10        Q.   Where do you get the information, Mr. Hyseni, about the Potkovica

11     operation, the Horseshoe operation?

12        A.   I don't have direct information for this, but it is true that

13     this plan of the military police and other forces of Serbia was called

14     Horseshoe or Scorched Land.  It is possible that I read about it in the

15     newspapers.

16        Q.   Mr. Hyseni, there is another name here, Scorched Earth.  Can you

17     please tell me if you know that operation, regardless of whether it's

18     called Horseshoe or Scorched Earth, was a military operation or was a

19     police operation with that name, or was it something third?  I think you

20     know the details that perhaps even I don't know, so then it would be very

21     strange if you didn't know the answer to this.

22        A.   This was a joint coordinated operation of the whole -- of all the

23     forces of Serbia operating in Kosova at the time.  I saw this with my own

24     eyes.  I saw how people were being expelled, how areas were being

25     ethnically cleansed, how houses were being looted.  All this happened on

Page 4885

 1     the 6th of April.

 2        Q.   That was the time that the NATO bombing was going on as well.  Am

 3     I correct?

 4        A.   Yes.  The bombing had started, but not in Sojeve where I was.

 5     There was no bombing in Sojeve.  There was no bombing of the area where

 6     the population was staying.  NATO had its targets, and civilians were not

 7     one of them.

 8        Q.   You already talked about this and that was not my question.  My

 9     next question will be you said in your village that it was a purely

10     Albanian village with no members of other ethnic groups except Albanian,

11     but you said that in the neighbouring villages there were Serbian

12     families.  Did these Serbian families also leave their homes?

13        A.   We're talking about Staro Selo or Fshati i Vjeter in Albanian.

14     There were Serb or Montenegrin families living there, about 12 or 13.  At

15     that time they didn't leave the village, but they provided shelter to a

16     very dangerous paramilitary group.  I have information that this was

17     Seselj's group, but I didn't see them myself.

18             At the entry to the village, to this village, the police were

19     stationed.  They set on fire eight houses from some relatives of mine,

20     and there were also people killed in the village.  I've given the

21     Prosecutor the details about these killings, and I can elaborate on that

22     if you want.  I'm talking about Staro Selo.

23             Nine persons were killed from Staro Selo village during the

24     bombing, two of them killed by the Black Hand.  So I'm answering your

25     question now.  The Serbs did not leave their homes.  They only left after

Page 4886

 1     the Kumanovo agreement was signed.  And they set all the houses on fire

 2     as they were leaving.

 3        Q.   The Serbs set their houses on fire before they left Kosovo?  Is

 4     that what you wanted to say?

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness is kindly asked to stop for the

 6     translation before he starts answering.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They didn't set their own houses on

 8     fire.  They burnt the Albanian houses.  They are selling their houses.

 9     Their own houses are on the market.  The government of Kosova has

10     actually rebuilt their houses in some of the villages and offered them

11     the opportunity to return, but the mere fact that they refuse to return

12     to their homes leads one to believe that they have a hand in the

13     ill-doings that took part during the war.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Is this a convenient time, Mr. Djordjevic?

15             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] It would not be, but, however, I

16     do agree that we have a break.  However, I will need an additional seven

17     or eight minutes to round off this topic, but I will make a marking and

18     remember where I left it off.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Good.  We shall adjourn now.  We have a break for

20     half an hour.  We resume at 1.00.

21             The court officer will assist you during the break.

22                           --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djordjevic.

25             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 4887

 1        Q.   Sir, am I right in saying that your statement that the MUP and

 2     the Ministry of Defence coordinated all of the events, these are merely

 3     your assumptions, you do not have any actual facts or information to

 4     corroborate that?

 5        A.   It's not an assumption if we speak about what really happened in

 6     Sojeve village.  The action itself shows -- the action committed by those

 7     people part of those formations shows that they must have had a command

 8     and someone must have led them.  The army has been led by the General

 9     Staff, and it is under the power of the Ministry of Defence.

10             The police, on the other hand, was under the jurisdiction of the

11     Ministry of Interior.  The paramilitary or reservists, whatever they

12     were, they have cooperated in them, and this shows that there was a

13     coordination.

14             If Serbia had used a democratic form in Kosova, these things

15     would not have happened, because the army that operated in Bibe,

16     Strasel [phoen], Sllatine was the army from Nis, Vojna Posta Nis.  This

17     is not an assumption.  I can even show you the document, the relevant

18     document which I have submitted to the Prosecution signed by one of the

19     captains of that army which was found in one of our homes.  That's why

20     I'm saying this is not an assumption, but it's an actual fact.

21        Q.   Since you mentioned documents, I'll ask you this:  Did you ever

22     see a document coordinating the work of MUP members, army members, that

23     is to say soldiers and police, and to include the reservists or

24     paramilitary forces, whichever way we term them.  Did you ever see an

25     order for a joint operation by soldiers, police, and reservists or

Page 4888

 1     paramilitaries?  Did you ever come across such a document?

 2        A.   A document that shows that an order has been given then is

 3     impossible for me or anyone else to see, because they are secret

 4     documents.  But I'm saying the actions, the operations committed during

 5     those times, they must have been done on the basis of orders given to the

 6     army, to the police of a state or a so-called state, I would say, which

 7     Serbia -- those forces that Serbia concentrated in Kosova.  These were

 8     criminal groups that did nothing other than exerted criminal violence

 9     against Albanians, civilian Albanians, elderly people, innocent people.

10        Q.   What is the basis of your knowledge that in those operations

11     reservists participated or -- or the paramilitaries, as you call them?

12     What is your basis for that conclusion?

13        A.   The basis of my knowledge is that the regular army, the

14     reservists or the paramilitaries, you may call them as you like, you can

15     distinguish them from the way they dress, from the way they act.  A

16     regular army does not wear beards.  I have been a soldier myself.  The

17     uniform is in a better shape, is tidier, and is a set uniform, whereas

18     the paramilitaries or the reservists don't have the same uniform.  They

19     are unshaven, they have long hair, and so on.  On the basis of the

20     appearance.

21        Q.   Was there a difference in terms of weapons carried by members of

22     the army and members of the Ministry of the Interior?

23        A.   It depends on the military unit involved.  Mainly, the weapons

24     were Kragujevc make weapons.  Kragujevac mainly.

25             The police had automatic rifles produced in Kragujevac.  Only in

Page 4889

 1     one occasion I saw a soldier carrying a machine-gun, but it, too, was

 2     produced in the same place.  Or in Zagreb maybe.  If you're asking me

 3     about the weapons of the soldiers, an infantry platoon, when I was a

 4     soldier, and I suppose that was the case even then, don't have the same

 5     weapons.  Some have submachine-guns, some have machine-guns or automatic

 6     or semi-automatic rifles.  The police had usually the same weapons,

 7     Zastava make, manufactured in Kragujevac.

 8        Q.   A moment ago you mentioned members of an organisation called

 9     Crna Ruka, Black Hand, referring to a village in which there were a dozen

10     Serb and Montenegrin families.  First of all, how did you learn of the

11     name of the organisation, and second of all, do you know anything more

12     about?  Do you know who those people were, what sort of clothes they

13     wore, what weapons they had, what vehicles they used?  Do you have any

14     information to that effect?

15        A.   Yes.  I have information that the Black Hand existed.  The entire

16     town knew about it.  I would say the entire Kosova, because after 6.00,

17     nobody dared go out.  If anyone was caught out in the street, he would be

18     killed.  In a place called Srpski Babush, some victims were found there,

19     and it was written on the body "Black Hand."  That is, the perpetrator,

20     who was the perpetrator.

21             They circulated in vehicles without licence plates.  They acted

22     in concert with the police of the police station, for example.  There is

23     a policeman who was called Pucrran.  I don't know his name.  He was a

24     terrible person.  He used to have a BMW, and his car used to circulate

25     always after 6.00.  There were also two civilians from the town known by

Page 4890

 1     the name of Pesic.  They also were among the perpetration.  They were

 2     members of the Black Hand, but of course there were others.  And these

 3     killings committed by this notorious formation were aimed at striking

 4     fear among the population and force them to flee.  This became apparent,

 5     especially after the killings committed prior to the air-strikes.  I am

 6     talking about Ferizaj area.  And this Black Hand killed two young people

 7     in Staro Selo, Sadik Leskovci and someone from Magashi family.  His name

 8     was Elhami Muharremi from the Magashi family.  These two young persons

 9     were victims of this very formation.

10        Q.   Am I right in saying that concerning the organisation Black Hand,

11     have only indirect information and knowledge, having discussed it with

12     various people?  You do not have any direct knowledge about the

13     organisation, do you?

14        A.   This is direct information that I have, because we dealt directly

15     with what happened.  We participated in the burial of these two young

16     people in this case.  We talked with their family members.  What more

17     direct information can you get other than this?  We didn't go to the

18     police station to ask, because if you went to the police station at that

19     time, you were hardly likely to come out alive from there.

20        Q.   Who was the founder of this armed formation called Black Hand

21     that you have been referring to today?  What have you heard about it?

22        A.   The founder on the level of Serbia, do you mean, or for Kosova?

23        Q.   I have no idea whether that organisation existed in Serbia at

24     all.  You mentioned the Black Hand organisation.  If you know, tell us

25     who is the political mentor of that organisation, and share with us

Page 4891

 1     any -- which information you may have.

 2        A.   This organisation you are asking me about, alleging that you

 3     don't know it ever existed is not correct, because it did exist.  It

 4     had -- it executed people.  It killed people.

 5             As to the founder of this organisation, I believe the then

 6     Serbian power must know.

 7             As for Ferizaj, I told you that some of its members were

 8     well-known faces for us.  One of them to this day works in Leskovc, in

 9     the police station together with his wife.  The other, I don't know where

10     he is.  As well as the state security service.

11        Q.   Did you have in mind any political parties allegedly behind the

12     organisation of the Black Hand?

13        A.   No.  No.  I have never mentioned any political party behind this

14     Black Hand organisation.  It was directly supported by the Serbian power,

15     especially by the police, the police institution.

16        Q.   Did you ever see any members of that organisation in the field

17     where you were?

18        A.   At the time it operated, and I mentioned that it operated after

19     6.00 in the evening, it was impossible for me to see any one of them,

20     because if I happened to see them, I would have been executed on the

21     spot.  My house is near the Gnjilan-Ferizaj road, and on one occasion I

22     saw a black Golf car without licence plate, and it belonged to the Black

23     Hand, but I couldn't see the persons inside the car, the way they were

24     dressed, what they were carrying, from my house.  I couldn't see them.  I

25     only saw the car parked at a crossing to observe if someone was coming

Page 4892

 1     out or moving about.

 2        Q.   How do you know that that vehicle belonged to the Black Hand?

 3     You didn't see any people.  You didn't see the driver.  You saw no one.

 4     You didn't see any registration plates.  It's a black car standing at an

 5     intersection and yet you claim it belongs to the Black Hand organisation.

 6     Why do you think so?

 7        A.   I say this because nobody dared move those days.  Even if you had

 8     a sick person, you wouldn't dare take him or her to the hospital.  It was

 9     like a curfew.  The only cars that were circulating after 6.00 were those

10     that I mentioned.

11        Q.   Can I conclude, then, that you arrived at that conclusion without

12     any further evidence that these were members of the organisation inside

13     the vehicle at that moment?

14        A.   I am saying even now that that car belonged to the Black Hand

15     formation, which was active during those days.  I wished I would have

16     been in a position to identify the persons inside, because many people

17     were killed in Shati i Vjeter nearby.

18        Q.   Everything you've said so far is something I believe you, but I'm

19     asking you to tell us why you concluded that the vehicle belonged to the

20     Black Hand organisation.  You did not see the driver or anyone else.  It

21     was only your conclusion that only they could be driving in cars around

22     at that time, but what made you conclude that that very vehicle, the

23     black Golf car, belonged to that organisation, and if indeed that was

24     your conclusion, I would kindly ask you to share with us the information

25     that you based that conclusion on.  Otherwise, I have to conclude that it

Page 4893

 1     was merely an assumption on your part.

 2        A.   I base this conclusion on the fact that the same Golf and other

 3     cars were observed by other members of the community there.

 4             One night, or two nights later, in another neighbourhood in the

 5     Gnjilan road, a person was wounded and was killed.  They were from Viti

 6     municipality, but since I didn't see it with my own eyes I didn't testify

 7     to that.  So two more victims were observed.

 8        Q.   Was the black Golf car seen when those people were killed?

 9        A.   I didn't see it myself, but this black Golf was seen that day in

10     several other locations by various people.

11        Q.   I have no doubts about that.  The only doubt I have is concerning

12     the person driving it and who it belonged to.

13             Can you tell us whether you ever saw any KLA members, and I mean

14     before you left the country for Macedonia.  If you did, tell us what they

15     looked like, whether they wore any uniforms or not, whether they had

16     weapons and, if so, what kind of weapons?

17        A.   I didn't see any KLA soldiers ever during the time you are asking

18     me about.  I only saw them on television or read about them in some

19     newspaper article.

20        Q.   Thank you.  When did you see them on TV and when was it that you

21     read those newspaper articles, before you left for Macedonia or after?

22        A.   Before I left for Macedonia.  We had the Bukoje [phoen] newspaper

23     and then we watched the Albanian television via our satellite dish.

24        Q.   Did you see any KLA members on Albanian television?

25        A.   Yes, but also I've seen them on CNN.

Page 4894

 1        Q.   Were there any KLA members in Urosevac and its environs, that is

 2     to say, in your village of Biba in the course of 1998 and 1999?

 3        A.   Could you please repeat your question?

 4        Q.   Do you have any knowledge that in 1988 and 1999 --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  1998 and 1999.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- that there were some KLA members

 7     in Urosevac, in your village, and other villages surrounding Biba?

 8        A.   In 1998, I do have knowledge that there were KLA members there,

 9     but they were concentrated in the Nerodimlje operational zone, which is

10     outside Ferizaj.  The area where I live, Bibaj, Komogllave, Sojeve, did

11     not have any KLA presence.  There was no KLA in these villages, and the

12     KLA was not operative in this area.  It had its own positions.

13             Had the KLA been operational in that area, these crimes perhaps

14     wouldn't have occurred in the villages that I mentioned.

15        Q.   Do you know that members of the KLA killed, kidnapped,

16     maltreated, raped citizens of both Serb and Albanian ethnicity?

17        A.   If you are talking about the Nerodimlje operational zone, I have

18     no knowledge about that.  I don't have knowledge even about other

19     operational zones of the KLA.  Personally, I think that the KLA soldiers

20     who took the oath to defend their homeland and their people would not do

21     such acts ever.  That's why I don't think that these things happened.

22        Q.   Mr. Hyseni, am I right in saying that you have spent practically

23     all your life in the village of Biba, close to Urosevac?

24        A.   Yes.  Practically all my life I lived in Bibaj.

25        Q.   How well do you know your neighbours and co-villagers?

Page 4895

 1        A.   Very well.

 2        Q.   Is it possible that there are people in your village who have

 3     been living there for longer than 20 years and that you don't know them?

 4        A.   What do you mean by saying for longer than 20 years?  You're

 5     referring to the recent 20 years?  I'm not clear on this.

 6        Q.   Are there people who are your neighbours that you don't know,

 7     people who live in that village?  I took the time period of 20 years,

 8     because there will be some questions that I plan to put that have

 9     something to do with that.

10        A.   I believe, and I think I'm sure that I know all the people living

11     in my village with the exception of some families who moved there after

12     the war, because now things have changed.  There was like a neighbourhood

13     of Bibaj in the past which was not included in the village of Bibaj but

14     now it's called Bibaj too.  I would say I know most of the villagers

15     living in my village.

16        Q.   The period that I was asking you about is up to 1999.  Not now,

17     but thank you for your answer.

18             Can you please tell me the village of Trpeza.  Do you know where

19     it is?

20        A.   Yes, I know where it is.  It's in Viti municipality, not in

21     Ferizaj municipality.

22        Q.   Yes, that's correct.  Can you please tell me if you know Sadat

23     Seljimi from Trpeza from the municipality of Vitina ?

24        A.   Sir, already told you that Trpeza village is in a different

25     municipality.  I know where it is as a village, but I don't know the

Page 4896

 1     people from that.  I knew the chief of police for Gnjilan and Ferizaj

 2     area, but I don't know this person that you mentioned by the name of

 3     Sadat Seljimi.  That's why I don't know how to answer your question.  To

 4     put it shortly, I don't know him.

 5        Q.   Well, this is an answer that I'm satisfied with.  I don't know

 6     him.  But I have to ask you, did you know - not do you know - but did you

 7     know Faruk Murselji from your village Bibaj?

 8        A.   Faruk who?

 9        Q.   Murselji.  Faruk Murselji?

10        A.   There is no person by the name of Faruk Murselji in Bibaj.

11        Q.   Are you aware that members of the KLA carried out an attack using

12     automatic weapons on the 9th of January, 1999 at precisely 9.00 p.m. in

13     your village and that Mr. -- or the gentleman that you assert never lived

14     in Bibaj, Faruk Murselji, was killed at -- in that incident, and that a

15     person by the name of Sadat Seljimi, whom you claim that you don't know,

16     was lightly wounded.  Do you know anything about this incident or not?

17        A.   I don't have any knowledge about this incident, and I doubt that

18     it ever happened in my village.  Sadat, whoever he was, is not from my

19     village.  This other person doesn't exist in my village.  My village is

20     inhabited by Albanians.  That's why I don't think that your information

21     is correct.  I don't know where you got this information from, but it

22     does not concern my area, my village.

23        Q.    You wish to say that Faruk Murselji is not an Albanian first and

24     last name?

25        A.   It is an Albanian name, that is true, but he is not from Bibaj

Page 4897

 1     village, because we don't have Murselji family in the village.

 2        Q.   This is why I was putting these questions to you earlier.  Do you

 3     know that members of the KLA, on the 13th of March, 1999, at about 1.00

 4     p.m. activated a powerful explosive device in front of the entrance of

 5     Jugobanka in the Catsuro Urasa [phoen] in Urosevac or Ferizaj, when Sefki

 6     Behljulji, Sefket Sulejmani were seriously wounded, and Agron Mustafu,

 7     Agron Imisti, Basri Sejdiju, Ramadus Mjaku, Sali Mehmeti and five other

 8     persons were wounded, and I don't know their names.  Do you know about

 9     this event of the 13th of March in Urosevac?

10        A.   No, I don't have knowledge about this incident.  Could you repeat

11     the date, please?  Is it 13th of March or 13th of May?  I don't think

12     this happened in Ferizaj.  At least I don't have any knowledge of it.

13        Q.   Why are you talking about the 13th of May?

14        A.   If it was 13th of May, 1999, on that day in 1999, I was in

15     Manchester.  I was a refugee.  Whatever the case with the date is, I

16     don't think this ever happened in Ferizaj.  If it really happened, it

17     would have been recorded or noted down in the Office of Human Rights and

18     Freedoms in Ferizaj.  I don't know where you got this information from.

19        Q.   We're talking about the 13th of March, and I have this

20     information from reports that were published in the media, also from the

21     MUP reports in the offices of the at that time legal sovereign state of

22     the Republic of Serbia.  Do you know that there were attacks on police

23     officers, both Serbs and Albanians, on the territory of the entire

24     municipality of Urosevac?  Do you have any information about that?

25        A.   What attacks are you talking about?  Can you mention a concrete

Page 4898

 1     incident, a concrete period of time, please?

 2        Q.   What I wanted to mention to you I have already mentioned.  What I

 3     know about, I'm asking if you know about something that I don't know that

 4     relates to attacks of the KLA on citizens of Serb ethnicity and even some

 5     Albanians in the course of 1998 and 1999 in the territory of your

 6     municipality of Urosevac.  Do you have any information about that?

 7        A.   No.  As far as the municipality of Ferizaj is concerned, I have

 8     no information about such incidents.  I know that the KLA did not attack

 9     civilians.  You should know that the aim of the KLA was the one to defend

10     the population, to defend our homeland.  The KLA only attacked those who

11     generated violence, police and army.  The civilians that you're

12     mentioning, they did not attack.  At least I don't have knowledge about

13     such attacks in Ferizaj municipality.

14        Q.   Would you agree with me if I were to say that members of the KLA

15     attacked the police and the military in your area in view of what you

16     have just said?  In the transcript it says "said," but it should say

17     "just heard," not "just said."

18        A.   I told you that there were no attacks against civilians.

19     However, attacks on police forces are possible.  There could have been

20     such attacks.

21        Q.   In your statement on page 4, paragraph 3 of the B/C/S, page 4,

22     paragraph 5 of the English, and page 5, paragraph 3 of the Albanian, it

23     says in this village, right until the beginning of the NATO bombing there

24     were no active members of the KLA, but there was support.  So in relation

25     to that, I'm asking you, what sort of support, to whom, from whom?

Page 4899

 1        A.   Everybody supported it.  The support came from the people.  It

 2     also included financial support.  It was an organisation, a formation

 3     called the Kosovo Liberation Army aimed at defending the population.

 4     Everybody supported the KLA, but not everybody could join.  It was

 5     impossible for everyone to join this army.  When an army is established

 6     to defend the freedom of the people, to defend their Honour, why

 7     shouldn't one support it?  I am very proud of the fact that my people

 8     produced such outstanding young men who knew how to fight violence.  This

 9     army wouldn't have been established had there been no violence.  It was

10     the violence exercised in all walks of life in Kosova, especially by the

11     police, that gave rise to this army.

12        Q.   About the support that I asked you about, you said that you

13     provided financial support, but I'm interested whether this means that

14     there was also provision of food, medicines, provision of shelter, and

15     possibly a provision of weaponry as well.  Does that mean all of these

16     things.

17        A.   No, no.  Provision of shelter and weapons was impossible.  As for

18     financial support, everybody paid a percentage, a 3 per cent, when the

19     parallel government was formed.  So this financial support covered that

20     as well.  As for provision of weapons, it was impossible to have

21     circulation of weapons everywhere.  If we had such an arsenal of weapons,

22     the 15.000 civilians that were killed in Kosova wouldn't have been

23     killed.

24             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  Thank you.  Your Honour, it will be a good

25     moment to interrupt my cross-exam, and I would continue tomorrow.

Page 4900

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Djordjevic.

 2             Mr. Behar, can I ask, tomorrow after this witness is it

 3     Mr. Sterenberg who will be called?

 4             MR. BEHAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  I believe Mr. Sterenberg is our

 5     next witness, and he is ready to testify.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  And is it still the case that he must finish

 7     tomorrow?

 8             MR. BEHAR:  Just a moment's indulgence.  I'm being told no,

 9     that's not the case.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Despite that, our timetable encourages

11     us in the hope at that we can finish Mr. Sterenberg tomorrow.  So if you

12     could bear that in mind overnight, Mr. Djordjevic, when you look at your

13     future questions for this witness and for Mr. Sterenberg.

14             We must now adjourn for the day, Mr. Hyseni.  The court staff

15     will assist you again with the arrangements, and we continue tomorrow

16     morning at 9.00.  So we should finish your evidence not long into the

17     morning.  Thank you for that.

18             We now adjourn until 9.00.

19                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.

20                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 22nd day

21                           of May, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.