Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4901

 1                           Friday, 22 May, 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning, Mr. Hyseni.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, to all of you.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  The affirmation you made to tell the truth still

 9     applies today, of course.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course.

11             Mr. Djordjevic.

12                           WITNESS:  BEDRI HYSENI [Resumed]

13                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

14             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Djordjevic:  [Continued]

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Hyseni.

17        A.   Good morning to you, sir.

18        Q.   Mr. Hyseni, your statement of the 8th of May, you say at

19     paragraph 6 on page 2 in all the languages concerning this particular

20     statement of the 8th of May, 1999, you say that on the 24th of March, you

21     were at home when NATO bombing commenced.  In your statement of the 27th

22     of August, 2001, as you say, you were outdoors when the bombing started

23     and you observed who was going to arrive from where, and you told your

24     brother to take away your family.  That's at paragraph 3, page 4, that's

25     the last paragraph in the English version, and page 5, last paragraph in

Page 4902

 1     the Albanian version.  As this is an apparent difference in your

 2     statement, can you now tell us which of the two is in fact true?

 3        A.   Last time I testified here, another lawyer complained about this.

 4     I explained it then and I will explain it now.  On the 24th of March when

 5     the bombing started, I was in my uncle's house, but it could also have

 6     been my own home because according to our tradition, there are several

 7     houses together in a compound, and we did not differentiate between them.

 8             I did say my uncle's house, in my house was my father then.

 9     That's what I remember.

10        Q.   However, as I put it to you, in your statement of the 27th of

11     August, 2001, you say that you were outdoors and observing who was going

12     to arrive from where, which I understood to mean that you were in fact

13     not inside any of the houses.  So my question was which is true, is what

14     you stated in your statement true or what you've just said is true?

15        A.   I'm telling you the truth, that I was in my uncle's house.  It's

16     not far from my own home and it's the place where I had taken my children

17     for shelter.  When the bombing started, I was there, but we also went out

18     to look what was going on.  While as I said earlier, my father was in my

19     house.

20        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Hyseni.  Can you tell us what was the reason why

21     you left Biba for Sojevo, you said that this happened on the 27th or the

22     28th of April, I understand.  I would like to put to you some portions of

23     your statements which differ.  I would like us to correct this and to

24     have your final position on this.

25             On the 8th of May, 1999, you stated:

Page 4903

 1             "I was a member of the Council for Human Rights in Urosevac, and

 2     I was afraid that the Serbs might capture me."

 3             We are referring to your reason for leaving Biba for Sojevo.  You

 4     say:

 5             "On the 27th of August, 2001, I left Biba because it was

 6     overcrowded."

 7             What was the real reason for you leaving Biba and going to

 8     Sojevo?

 9        A.   The real reasons were both of them.  There were so many people

10     that had come to Bibaj and Bibaj, that neighbourhood in Bibaj was too

11     small to contain all of them.  And the other reason is that I was an

12     activist in the Council for the Defence of Human Rights in Biba and

13     Sojeve.  So those first three days, three members of the council had been

14     eliminated by the secret service in Ferizaj, and for these two reasons, I

15     took my wife and children and went to Sojeve to my maternal uncle's

16     house.  I thought we would be safer there.

17        Q.   When you say that the secret service eliminated two members of

18     the council, did you mean it to say that they were killed?

19        A.   Not two, more than two, and this happened on the first three

20     days.

21        Q.   Can you tell me which members of the council were killed in the

22     first couple of days?

23        A.   Yes.  The first two days, the secret police of the SUP in Ferizaj

24     had taken from his home Haki Braha [phoen], who is now dead, and Ali

25     Sefik Spahiu, the best lawyer in Ferizaj, he was still missing.  He was

Page 4904

 1     an activist for the Council for the Defence of Human Rights, and he

 2     defended the people who were arrested in 1988, and these people who were

 3     arrested there were sentenced by the Serbs and some of them were tortured

 4     with medieval methods, and for that reason the people from the secret

 5     service eliminated these two, and Bajram Kelmendi who was also a lawyer

 6     for this group.

 7        Q.   Mr. Hyseni, am I right when I say that Bajram Kelmendi from

 8     Pristina and not from Urosevac, that he is from Pristina not from

 9     Urosevac?

10        A.   Yes, yes, I know he is from Prishtina, but he was the main

11     authority in the Council for the Human Rights and so, as I said, Haki

12     Braha and Ali Sefik Spahiu were from Ferizaj.  Another one from Ferizaj

13     was Ismet Ramadani.  Haki and Ismet and were found dead while Ali Sefik

14     Spahiu is still missing, and the secret service must have information

15     where he is, where his body is.

16        Q.   Haki Braha and Ismet Ramadani, what else did they engage in?

17     Spahiu's --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch the name.

19             MR. DJORDJEVIC:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] I know he was a lawyer.  What was the occupation

21     of Haki Braha and Ismet Ramadani?

22        A.   Haki Braha was a journalist.  Ismet Ramadani was an activist of

23     the council.

24        Q.   And what was his profession or was he only engaged in the

25     activities concerning the council?

Page 4905

 1        A.   He had a profession, he worked somewhere, but I knew him as an

 2     activist.  I think he was a journalist.

 3             THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction:  I know that Haki

 4     Braha was a journalist.

 5             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Mr. Hyseni, had you been arrested before the NATO bombing as an

 7     activist of the Council for the Defence of Human Rights?

 8        A.   No, I wasn't.

 9        Q.   As of the 24th of March up until the 27th or 28th of April when

10     you left the territory of the Republic of Serbia, including Kosovo and

11     Metohija, had you ever been interrogated by any Serbian organ for the

12     fact that you were a member of the Council for the Defence of Human

13     Rights?

14        A.   I did not leave Serbia, I left Kosova at the time in question,

15     and at that time I was not interrogated by the Serbian internal organs.

16     But if you were interested, in 1981 when I was a student, I was

17     interrogated.  I was not interrogated though at the time in question.

18        Q.   Am I right if I say that you personally don't have any knowledge

19     about members of the para-military forces having burned 90 per cent of

20     the homes in Limanaj, which you testified to, because you were not an

21     eye-witness of these events, rather any possible knowledge you might have

22     about it comes from the stories of the persons you discussed this with?

23        A.   I did see them with my own eyes because the territory is a hilly

24     one, and the Limanaj neighbourhood can be seen very well from the Shukri

25     Begu neighbourhood, and I saw that night all the houses being burned.  I

Page 4906

 1     think only a couple of them escaped the fire.  I saw everything with my

 2     own eyes.

 3        Q.   Am I right when I say that the vantage point from which you

 4     observed the events was at least 1 and a half kilometres away from

 5     Limanaj village?

 6        A.   About 1 kilometre.  But you can see very well from there.  I

 7     would say 800 metres to 1 kilometre.

 8        Q.   Mr. Hyseni, you say that it was nighttime.  In view of that,

 9     could you observe members of the Serbian forces from the vantage point

10     where you observed Limanaj?

11        A.   What time are you speaking about, sir?  If you are speaking about

12     Sojeve, it was not night-time, it was day-time.

13        Q.   I asked you this because you said that you were able to see the

14     events from your part of the village, and you said what it was called,

15     that you were able to observe houses on fire in Limanaj.  If I'm not

16     mistaken, you said it was night-time, please correct me if I'm wrong?

17        A.   No, you're mistaken.  This was around 8.00 in the morning, and at

18     that time of day you can see things very well.  It's day-time.

19        Q.   If that was the case, tell me did Serbian forces arrive in some

20     sort of vehicles, were you able to observe that?

21        A.   The Serb forces, the para-military group that were wearing police

22     and army uniforms, they got off a bus at a side road in Sojeve where bond

23     steel is now, from there they entered the Limanaj neighbourhood.  While

24     on the main road near the school where the army were, a police expedition

25     entered the village from that area, but I couldn't see them because I did

Page 4907

 1     not have a good view of that part from where I was.

 2             However, I could see very well what was going on in the other

 3     part of the Limanaj neighbourhood.

 4        Q.   Why do you say that to the part of Sojevo called Limanaj members

 5     of para-military forces arrived?  Where do you get that information from

 6     or on the basis of what did you draw your conclusion?

 7        A.   Because the same people went through the fields and came to the

 8     neighbourhood where we were, Shukri Begu, in Shulaj [phoen].  And the

 9     same killed two people, my uncle, Nazmi Nebihu, and his wife Hazira

10     Nebihu.  And then it was this group again that caught up with the

11     civilians, and one of them was Novica Mijovic.  I think he was their

12     leader.  I believe he was their leader.

13        Q.   Please tell me briefly how come you knew who Novica Mijovic.  Did

14     you knew him from before?

15        A.   Yes I knew him.  I knew all the Serb that is were in the Ferizaj

16     municipality.  He was working for the Army of Yugoslavia.  He was in the

17     army centre working there.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Were there other members of para-military forces whom

19     you knew from the surrounding places and Urosevac, and of course I'm

20     referring to Serbs?

21        A.   To tell you the truth, all the Serbs that I knew, such as from

22     Staro Selo, I do not know of any of them that had not been issued a

23     uniform and weapons, and they were carrying the weapons and wearing the

24     uniforms at the time, so I knew them.  And I singled out Novica Mijovic.

25     I'm sure that they went somewhere else though, the people, the Serbs from

Page 4908

 1     Ferizaj went somewhere else to carry out their actions while other Serbs

 2     from other areas came to Ferizaj.  But all the Serbs were uniformed and

 3     armed at the time, especially the young Serbs.

 4        Q.   The answer you've just given me is something you stated before,

 5     but this was not my question.  My question was, were there any other

 6     Serbs participating in this action whom you knew?  I'm referring to the

 7     events in Limanaj.  To save time, let me put a follow-up question.  How

 8     were able to see Novica Mijovic from the distance and recognise him?

 9        A.   I'm telling the truth here before the honourable judges.  Novica

10     Mijovic and his group that operated that day caught the other group of

11     civilians, not my group of civilians that I was in.  I observed that

12     about 70 or 80 or 100 metres away in the forest.  And I saw Novica

13     Mijovic there.

14             And this was corroborated by the civilians that joined us from

15     that group, Danush Nebihu who knew Novica personally, and Novica had

16     spoken to them and had told them, Don't you dare go back to your homes,

17     the soldiers will kill you, go to Ferizaj.  Danush's house had been burnt

18     down, and my uncle and his wife were killed.  So the killings and the

19     burning had already started.

20        Q.   When you refer to the second group, is that the group that set

21     out for Kamena Glava?

22        A.   Yes, yes, that's the other group that was looted and were

23     directed to Komogllave, then they were expelled from the village.

24        Q.   My understanding was that your group was at a location that was

25     different from the one you mentioned, not only 70 metres away, and that

Page 4909

 1     it was thanks to that that you were able to survive and avoid any danger

 2     in the encounter with the para-militaries.  This is something you

 3     referred to in your 27th of August, 2001 statement, and I believe that's

 4     at page 5 or 6.  Bear with me.

 5        A.   The group of children and women were further up in a place that

 6     could not be easily seen.  Whereas we men, younger men, were a little bit

 7     further down in order to be able to observe the situation, to observe

 8     what was going on.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  When we are talking about events from Urosevac,

10     that's what we are doing now, did anyone or any members of your family

11     with whom you will later to go to Macedonia, did anyone tell you or any

12     member of your family that you had to leave Urosevac?

13        A.   During that period, there were several occasions that made people

14     leave.  I don't know what you are referring to when you say Ferizaj.  If

15     you are interested in Sojeve, I can explain about Sojeve and the reasons

16     I left.  Are you referring to the time when I last left from Macedonia?

17     Because you have two different expulsions, in Sojeve and in Ferizaj from

18     where I proceeded towards Macedonia.

19        Q.   Now, we are talking about when you left Urosevac to go to

20     Macedonia.

21        A.   Yes, I understand now.  When I left Ferizaj, the neighbourhood

22     where I had stayed for five days that is, the whole neighbourhood had

23     been emptied, only the family of my wife had remained in their house.

24     Some of them were wounded by a shell that was fired by the army from the

25     nearby barracks.  Ramush Ramadani, my father-in-law, and Fatmir Ramadani,

Page 4910

 1     my brother-in-law, were injured.  They were treated later on in

 2     Switzerland.

 3             The circumstances in that neighbourhood were not favourable for

 4     someone to live there.  There was shooting every day and then there was a

 5     concentration of police forces in Nerodimlje village.  They expelled the

 6     population from that village.  Part of the population that had fled the

 7     village through the fields came to the neighbourhood where we were in

 8     Ferizaj, and I joined this part of the population from Nerodimlje

 9     together with my family and my in-laws and went to take the bus.  We

10     boarded the bus, all of us, and arrived in Macedonia.

11             And there at that point in time there was no need for someone to

12     tell us explicitly, Leave Kosova.  At that time the bullets were doing

13     the talking.

14        Q.   When you came to Urosevac and then you had gone to Slatina and

15     back up and down, so in that period, we are talking about that period.

16     At that time, were the barracks of the Army of Yugoslavia already

17     demolished by NATO bombs at that time in Urosevac?

18        A.   Yes, the military barracks in Ferizaj was hit twice by NATO.  I

19     didn't see all of it.  Perhaps it wasn't fully destroyed, but can I tell

20     you for sure that it was hit twice by NATO bombs.

21        Q.   When you were talking about the wounded, the interpretation I got

22     was that it was your brother-in-law, your son-in-law, but actually it was

23     your brother-in-law, the husband of your sister.  So can you please

24     clarify that?

25        A.   Yes, my brother-in-law, my wife's brother.

Page 4911

 1        Q.   So it's a degree of kinship that in B/C/S is referred to as

 2     "surak," brother-in-law, and not son-in-law.

 3             What I'm asking you is how do you know that he was wounded by a

 4     bomb that was fired from the barracks of the Army of Yugoslavia.

 5        A.   There was no electricity in the evenings.  We would use the

 6     generators to follow the news.  I heard on the news bulletin about this

 7     incident and I didn't tell my wife about it because I knew she would

 8     worry.  So when I returned from Sllatine to Ferizaj that day, I confirmed

 9     this information from the media.  It turned out that it was true, the

10     military stationed at the barracks had fired on some civilians who had

11     gone out from their homes to watch the bombing out of curiosity.

12        Q.   How many Serbs lived in Urosevac at that time?

13        A.   What time-period are we talking about?

14        Q.   The time when everyone was going out of their houses and watching

15     the NATO bombing out of curiosity.

16        A.   I don't have the exact number of Serbs living there, but in

17     comparison with Albanians, they were in lesser numbers.  But in terms of

18     the police, the police was in greater numbers.  The police that had come

19     from Serbia.

20             I cannot give you the exact figure of the Serbs living in

21     Ferizaj.  I don't have this statistical data.

22        Q.   But you will agree with me in any case that there were Serb

23     families in Urosevac?

24        A.   Yes, there were Serb families living in Ferizaj and in some

25     villages, but not that many.

Page 4912

 1        Q.   You said that there were a lot of policemen, Serb policemen in

 2     Urosevac.  A lot of Serb police forces in Urosevac.  Or did I understand

 3     you wrongly?

 4        A.   Yes, there were.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please tell me when you were on the way to

 6     the Macedonian border, did anyone mistreat you, members of your family,

 7     or the members of your wife's family?

 8        A.   On the road on the way to Macedonia at the check-point in

 9     Kacanik, the mere stopping there is maltreatment.  The payment of the bus

10     ticket, 20 Deutschemarks for a person, is again ill-treatment,

11     mistreatment.  I don't know how you interpret these acts, but for me they

12     are mistreatment.

13             All these convoys of buses were full of refugees of people who

14     were expelled from their homes, then the police saying that we should all

15     go to Albania, that that's our country.  This verbal abuse, it's all

16     maltreatment and violation of human rights.

17             Their demands for cameras and valuables, it's also mistreatment.

18     We were unprotected and most of us were women, children, and elderly, and

19     they would call us terrorists.

20        Q.   Did anyone confiscate money that you had taken with you at the

21     Kacanik border crossing?

22        A.   Not in Kacanik, but at the bus station.  Everybody paid 20

23     Deutschemarks for a ticket and no tickets were issued.  Even today the

24     ticket to Macedonia does not cost 20 Deutschemarks.  We were very close

25     to the border.  At that point in time, Kacanik and Elez Han were close to

Page 4913

 1     the Macedonian border, and this money was collected by the bus driver who

 2     was a Serb.

 3        Q.   Can you please tell me if you were asked for personal ID or

 4     travel documents at the Kacanik border crossing to Macedonia?

 5        A.   The border crossing at Elez Han there we were not, but we were

 6     asked for personal documents at the check-point in Kacanik.

 7        Q.   Were these travel documents returned to you after you had gone

 8     through the crossing?

 9        A.   I was returned my ID card.  I don't know what happened with the

10     other buses, but they returned our ID cards in the bus that I was on.

11        Q.   Was your travel document returned to you?  You spoke about that

12     in one of your statements?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   When did you come back from Manchester?

15        A.   I came back from Manchester on the 19th of June, 2000.  If I'm

16     not mistaken, that's the date.

17        Q.   And were there Serbian families in the neighbouring village that

18     were living there?  I'm not talking about Pasica [phoen], that you

19     already talked about, and you said that they did some bad things and they

20     left with other Montenegrin and Serbian families where the Black Hand

21     was.  I'm talking about other villages, if there are any Serb families in

22     them and whether they stayed there?

23        A.   In Fshati i Vjeter or Staro Selo, I didn't find any Serb family

24     there upon my return from Manchester.  If you allow me, I can tell you

25     that in Strpce there were Serbs at the time, and there still are.  I

Page 4914

 1     thought you were referring only to the area where I live.  As I said,

 2     there were 12 or 13 families living in Staro Selo or Fshati i Vjeter.

 3     When I returned they were not there, and they are not there today either.

 4        Q.   Do you know where Staro Gradsko is?

 5        A.   Yes, I do, it's in Lipjan municipality.  It's not in my

 6     municipality.

 7        Q.   How far is that from you?

 8        A.   About 30 kilometres approximately.  I don't know exactly how far

 9     it is from my village, but I know for sure it's in Lipjan municipality.

10        Q.   Did you hear or did you have any information about the fact that

11     shortly after the war ended and KFOR entered Kosovo in Zeta Letsko

12     [phoen] Polje in Staro Gradsko, 14 Serb persons were killed.  You had

13     contacts with the Council for the Protection of Human and Civil Rights,

14     so did you hear about this incident?

15        A.   I heard about this incident on the news.  I think I was in

16     Manchester as a refugee at the time, if I'm not mistaken.  I did hear

17     about the incident through the media, but I don't have any direct

18     knowledge or information about that.  I'm not familiar with the

19     circumstances how that happened.  The truth is that I did hear about it.

20             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]  Thank you, sir.  Mr. Hyseni,

21     thank you very much for this answer.  I am not going to have any more

22     questions for you today.

23             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I hearby complete

24     my cross-examination of Mr. Hyseni.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you Mr. Djordjevic.

Page 4915

 1             Mr. Behar, is there re-examination?

 2             MR. BEHAR:  Yes, Your Honours, just very briefly.

 3                           Re-examination by Mr. Behar:

 4        Q.   Good morning, sir.  There's just one area of your answers to my

 5     learned friend's questions that I wanted to ask you about.  You were

 6     asked yesterday a number of questions about the Black Hand and what you

 7     knew and what you didn't know about that organisation.  You said in the

 8     course of your answers yesterday, that the Black Hand acted in concert

 9     with the police of the police station.  My question for you is, if you

10     can explain how you know that?

11        A.   It acted in concert with the police because, for example, in

12     Ferizaj municipality a BMW that belonged to a Serb police known with the

13     nickname of Pucrran was used by members of this organisation, and this

14     car was always in movement after 6.00 p.m.

15        Q.   And I know you mentioned this policeman named Pucrran yesterday

16     as well.  Can you explain to us how it is that you know about him and

17     about his actions?

18        A.   Everybody in Ferizaj knew this person.  The whole town knew him.

19        Q.   And how was it that the whole town knew him, or more

20     specifically, how was it that you knew him?

21        A.   He was one of the policemen that I knew.  When I say he was

22     known, I'm referring to his activities at check-points in the town.  He

23     was very cruel and aggressive towards the population.  I will illustrate

24     this with an example.  A cousin of mine, my uncle's son, was visited by

25     him once.  This policeman had seen him on Euronews transporting some

Page 4916

 1     refugees on his tractor to the border immediately after the massacre in

 2     Racak was committed.  He, Pucrran that is, visited him the next day and

 3     threatened him.

 4        Q.   Sir, you mentioned yesterday as well, and this was at page 4891

 5     of yesterday's transcript at line 8, that one of the members of the Black

 6     Hand worked at the police station in Leskovac.  Can you explain who that

 7     was?  Is that a different person.  Can you explain to us who that was?

 8        A.   No.  This is not Pucrran, but there were two Pesic brothers.

 9     Everybody knew that they were members of the Black Hand.  One of these

10     Pesic brothers and his wife work in the department of the interior in

11     Leskovc where they transferred the Ferizaj OUP after the war.  I know

12     that when people went to get some papers there in order to be able to

13     work abroad in Iraq and Afghanistan, they were questioned by this couple.

14        Q.   And again, sir, just so we are clear, can you explain how you

15     knew these Pesic brothers?  Were you familiar with them yourself, had you

16     seen them previously, or are these things that other people had told you?

17        A.   I saw them.  I would see them down-town as civilians, but the

18     whole town knew that they were involved in this kind of activity.  They

19     had a cafeteria near the bank building and they would park their jeep

20     there and behave as if the whole town belonged to them.  So everybody in

21     town knew what they were doing.

22             MR. BEHAR:  Thank you, sir.  Those are my questions for you.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Behar.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  You'll be please to know that that concludes the

Page 4917

 1     questions.  The Chamber would like to thank you for your attendance here

 2     and for the assistance you've been able to give you with your evidence.

 3     We are grateful for that and that you've been prepared to come to assist.

 4     You may of course now return to your normal activities and the court

 5     officer will show you out.  Thank you, sir.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  Thank all

 7     of you.  I wish you a good health and may justice prevail and may truth

 8     come on to surface.  Thank you very much.

 9                           [The witness withdrew]

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp.

11             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, the next witness is Jon Sterenberg.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

13                           [The witness entered court]

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning, sir.

15             THE WITNESS:  Good morning, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Could you please read aloud the affirmation that's

17     shown to you on the card now.

18             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

19     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Thanks very much.  Please sit down.

21             Mr. Stamp has some questions for you.

22                           WITNESS:  JON STERENBERG

23             MR. STAMP:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

24                           Examination by  Mr. Stamp:

25        Q.   Good morning, sir.  Could you please introduce yourself to the

Page 4918

 1     Court by telling us your name, your date of birth, and your occupation.

 2        A.   My name is Jon Sterenberg, I was born on the 15th of August,

 3     1961.  And I am an archaeologist.

 4        Q.   Do you specialise in any particular area of archaeology?

 5        A.   I've been specialising in forensic archaeology since 1997.

 6        Q.   And since 1997, could you tell us the main places that you have

 7     worked as a forensic archaeologist?

 8        A.   Since 1997 I've worked in Bosnia, Croatia, Serbia, west Africa,

 9     Iraq, and the United Kingdom.

10        Q.   In a sentence or two, can you just tell us what forensic

11     archaeology involves?

12        A.   Yes, forensic archaeology is just the application of classical

13     forensic archeological techniques into a forensic context.

14        Q.   And in the work that you've done in the former Yugoslavia, does

15     that involve the excavation and exhumations of mass graves and applying

16     forensic techniques thereto?

17        A.   Yes, that's correct.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers please pause between

19     question and answer for the purposes of interpretation, thank you.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp, and perhaps Mr. Sterenberg as well, if

21     I could mention, you are both speaking in English and your words have to

22     be interpreted through a number of languages for the needs of various

23     people in the court.  If you could please pause before responding to the

24     other person.  So if Mr. Stamp asks a question, Mr. Sterenberg, if you

25     would pause to allow time for the interpretation.

Page 4919

 1             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  On the screen in front of you, you'll see a

 3     running transcript.  Certainly don't start speaking until what you have

 4     or until the question has been fully typed.  We'll see how we progress.

 5     Thank you.

 6             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   More particularly, during your work in Serbia, did you have

 8     occasion to participate in the exhumation of mass graves in that country?

 9        A.   Yes.  In 2002 I was involved with the excavation of several mass

10     graves that were located in Batajnica which is just to the west of the

11     capital Belgrade.

12        Q.   In 2002 were you employed at any organisation in particular

13     there?

14        A.   Yes, in 2002 I was employed as an archaeologist with an

15     International Commission on Missing Persons.

16        Q.   Now, in respect to your work in the excavation of the mass graves

17     in Serbia, did you provide a statement to the ICTY investigators on the

18     20th and 21st of September, 2006?

19        A.   Yes, I did provide a statement which was given at the Sarajevo

20     office of the ICTY.

21        Q.   And have you had an opportunity recently to review the contents

22     of that statement?

23        A.   Yes, I've reviewed it, and I still stand by that statement.

24             MR. STAMP:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.  The statement is

25     65 ter number 02475.  I ask that it be received in evidence and given an

Page 4920

 1     exhibit number.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  That, Your Honours, will be assigned P00813.

 4             MR. STAMP:

 5        Q.   And prior to that did you prepare an exhumation report or

 6     exhumation reports on work done by the International Commission on

 7     Missing Persons -- or, I'm sorry, I withdraw that question and I'll get

 8     to that later.  I should deal with the transcripts first.

 9             On the 11th of December, 2006, did you testify in respect to your

10     work in Serbia in the case of the Prosecutor and Milutinovic et al?

11        A.   Yes, I did.

12        Q.   And have you had an opportunity to review the transcripts of your

13     testimony?

14        A.   Yes, I've reviewed the transcripts and I'm quite happy with

15     those.

16        Q.   Yes.  And by that, do you mean that your evidence will remain the

17     same if you were asked the same questions?

18        A.   Yes, my evidence would be the same.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MR. STAMP:  The transcript from his previous testimonies, Your

21     Honours, 05096.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Do you tender it, Mr. Stamp.

23             MR. STAMP:  Yes, Your Honour, I tender it and ask that it be

24     received into evidence.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

Page 4921

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  That, Your Honours, will be assigned P00814.

 2             MR. STAMP:  Your Honour, in order to proceed more efficiently

 3     with the exhibits that are associated with the transcript, I propose to

 4     read each one of the 65 ter numbers out so the Registrar can assign an

 5     exhibit number, if that pleases the the Court.

 6             This is -- I proceed this --

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  How many of these?

 8             MR. STAMP:  These are just four others.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

10             MR. STAMP:  There's 02474.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Which is?

12             MR. STAMP:  An exhumation report or exhumation reports by the

13     witness the behalf of the International Commission on Missing Persons.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Its date?

15             MR. STAMP:  That is dated the 21st of December, 2005.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  It will be received.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  And that, Your Honours, will be assigned P00815.

18             MR. STAMP:  There is 02557, which is a methodology report 2001 to

19     2006 DNA analysis conducted by the ICMP.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  And that --

22             MR. STAMP:  That should be received under seal, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be -- and that will be assigned P00816

25     under seal, Your Honours.

Page 4922

 1             MR. STAMP:  02558 is the ICMP notices of DNA reports, and that is

 2     also confidential, and I request that it be received in evidence under

 3     seal.  It's dated the 18th of January, 2006.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  That will be received under seal.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be assigned P00817 under seal, Your

 6     Honours.

 7             MR. STAMP:  And finally there is 02559.  That's an addendum to

 8     the ICMP DNA reports.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  That will be received.

10             MR. STAMP:  And could that one also be received under seal, Your

11     Honour.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  And that will be assigned P00818 under seal, Your

13     Honours.

14             MR. STAMP:  May I just indicate, I think I erred in respect of

15     the date.  2558, which is now P817, is dated the 18th of January, 2006.

16     Oh, yes, that's correct.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  You got that one right, Mr. Stamp.

18             MR. STAMP:  Unusually so.  What I did get wrong is I called

19     Exhumation Report of the International Commission for Missing Persons

20     2474, and that is what is recorded in the transcript.  It should in fact

21     be 2476.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

23             MR. STAMP:  With the leave of the Court, I'd like to read a

24     summary of the matters covered by the statement testimony and documents

25     tendered through this witness.

Page 4923

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

 2             MR. STAMP:  The witness Jon Sterenberg is a forensic

 3     archaeologist and was head of the excavation and examination division of

 4     the International Commission of Missing Persons hereinafter the ICMP.  He

 5     describes the forensic procedures that were applied to the excavations

 6     and exhumations of human mortal remains at several mass graves at

 7     Batajnica, Petrovo Selo, and Lake Perucac in Serbia during 2001 and 2002.

 8     He describes the location and landscape of sites, the physical

 9     characteristics, dimensions and construction of the graves or pits, and

10     the methodology applied for removing and recording the human remains and

11     the clothing and other artifacts that were found in the graves, the

12     condition and characteristics of these human remains, and gives an

13     overview of the forensic procedures applied in processing these human

14     remains and artifacts.

15             The witness prepared a report and that report is P814 which

16     details the observations made by him and other members of the ICMP who

17     attended these exhumations.  The witness also gives an overview about the

18     system operating procedures and methodology applied by the International

19     Commission on Missing Persons in its efforts to identify the remains of

20     bodies exhumed in the mass graves located in Serbia.

21             And he introduced and authenticated the ICMP reports on the

22     methodology of DNA matching and the ICMP reports on the match results of

23     DNA extracted from blood reference samples of family members of missing

24     persons from Kosovo with DNA extracted from the human remains and this

25     led to a subsequent identification of the remains.

Page 4924

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Please slow down for the interpreters.

 2             MR. STAMP:  My apologies.

 3             Your Honours, I would -- before I ask him just a couple of

 4     questions, I would like to point out to the Court that the exhumation

 5     report P2476 in the first report on Batajnica, there is a problem with

 6     the numbering of the paragraphs.  On a couple of occasions Your Honours

 7     will see that some paragraphs are given the same number as in the first

 8     one, it's paragraph 20, it's numbered 20 twice, and there are occasions

 9     when there are paragraphs missing.  That was a formatting error.  And

10     although we have a document with the numbering in proper order, it was

11     thought that it was best to keep this one because once one knows that

12     there is a problem, a small problem in the numbering, one can follow it,

13     but to remove it and change it in e-court would require changing a

14     variety of other documents that make reference to that -- to the

15     numbering as it was in e-court.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  While you are in the process of

17     correcting numbering.  Page 23, line 6 you should have referred to

18     Exhibit P815, not 814.

19             MR. STAMP:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you very much.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  I interrupted before it went off the screen.

21             MR. STAMP:  If we could look at P815 quickly.  And I think you

22     brought a copy of your report with you.  And look at paragraphs 8 to 10

23     of that report.  I should advise that that is, I think, page 11 in

24     e-court.  Which is -- yes, you have it.  Perhaps the diagram could be

25     expanded a little bit.

Page 4925

 1        Q.   There you have prepared a diagram or a plan showing the pits or

 2     the graves at Batajnica; is that correct?

 3        A.   That's a plan, correct.

 4        Q.   And we see within the plan above BAO6 and BAO8, markings STN 3,

 5     STN 4, and we see other place on the markings STN 6.  An issue arose as

 6     to what was the meaning of these markings.  Could you just explain that

 7     to the Court.

 8        A.   The markings are illustrated on the plan under STN 3, STN 4,

 9     STN 5, STN 6 are actually permanent grid markers that we placed on the

10     site to enable us to do three-dimensional mapping of the graves and the

11     remains that were in the graves.

12        Q.   And did you discuss that in your report anywhere?

13        A.   The basic outlines of surveys were in the report, but I didn't go

14     into great detail about how we actually set up the survey equipment and

15     used a known reference point or a back site to actually calibrate the

16     machine before we took any readings.

17        Q.   Very well.  So these indications are simply for the -- or these

18     markings are simply for the purposes of getting a three-dimensional

19     reading of the site?

20        A.   Yes, just for us to be able to work out the relative points that

21     we've taken on the ground in relation to two of those stations or

22     permanent grid markers.

23        Q.   In another issue which arose, and I think you mention it in your

24     report, did you -- or may I ask the question this way:  In respect to the

25     three sites that your report covers, that is Lake Perucac, Batajnica, and

Page 4926

 1     Petrovo Selo, were bone samples taken from the remains at all three

 2     sites?

 3        A.   Yes.  The standard ICMP procedure at the time was to take a hard

 4     tissue sample or a bone sample from every single set of remains that was

 5     recovered.  So in order to do that, of course, they were taken from all

 6     of the sites Petrovo Selo, Derventa Canyon, and all of sites that we

 7     opened at Batajnica.

 8        Q.   And these sites were sent off to the ICMP for DNA analysis, these

 9     samples, bone samples, I beg your pardon?

10        A.   Yes, the -- again, the standard procedure at the time was for the

11     bone samples to be taken by the forensic pathologists and then

12     transferred to ICMP for analysis.

13             MR. STAMP:  And if we could look at paragraph 11 of your

14     statement, which is on the -- which is P81 -- and I want to get this

15     number correct.  P813.

16        Q.   I just ask you for a collaboration -- for elaboration on

17     clarification of what you are saying.  You are saying here that paragraph

18     36 of your report refers to misunderstandings at the start with the

19     Serbian authorities.  Can you explain a little bit more what this

20     misunderstanding was and whether or not there were other issues arising

21     from the inexperience, as you put it, of the local Serbian authorities in

22     this type of work, and if so, how they were resolved?

23        A.   The -- the paragraph 36 where I've stated that there was

24     misunderstandings at the start of BAO3, that was just a very -- a simple

25     misunderstanding where the forensic team from the Belgrade institute

Page 4927

 1     actually wanted to use an excavator to put trenches across the site and

 2     hopefully would find any mass graves that were located at Batajnica.

 3     However, from an archeological point of view, what we wanted to do was to

 4     strip as big an area as possible in order to identify the full extent of

 5     the graves and the location.

 6             So there was a difference in opinion about how we should start

 7     the site.  Once we explained to Professor Aleksandric, who was the head

 8     of the Belgrade forensic team, what we wanted to do, and we showed him by

 9     example, by using a small excavator that we brought in from Sarajevo, he

10     was actually quite happy to just let us continue with these big strip of

11     the site.  And once we did that, we managed to identify all of the mass

12     graves and all of the features that were associated with them.  So a

13     simple misunderstanding that was easily resolved.

14             As far as I recollect, there were no other problems between the

15     ICMP staff or the Belgrade institute staff, and both worked very very

16     well together.

17        Q.   Thank you very much.  And would that sentiment or would your view

18     in respect to the working relations with the Serbian staff be the same in

19     respect to the other forensic pathologists from Serbia who assisted in

20     respect to the Lake Perucac, Derventa Canyon, and the Petrovo Selo

21     excavations?

22        A.   Definitely.  I got the impression from the other ICMP staff

23     members who were on the ground at Petrovo Selo and Derventa Canyon that

24     they had a very, very high respect for the Belgrade team and the team

25     from the Nis institute.  I don't think they had any problems at all.

Page 4928

 1        Q.   Thank you very much.  And finally if we could go to your

 2     transcript of what you said in the Milutinovic case.

 3             MR. STAMP:  And this is at page 8208 of the transcript and it is

 4     P814.  I think it's page 5 in e-court.  But I could just ask you to

 5     explain.

 6        Q.   There seems to have been some misunderstanding --

 7             MR. STAMP:  I think it's two pages further on.

 8        Q.   -- as to the dates and timing of your participation in the

 9     excavations at Batajnica.  There were eight pits there and they were

10     excavated at different times, I can see from your report.  Can you just

11     have a look at your report, I think the times are there on your report

12     and clarify, if you can, the dates and times when you were involved, or

13     that ICMP was involved in these excavations at Batajnica?

14        A.   Yes.  The dates of the excavation are in the report.  I think

15     they are on page 4.  ICMP was involved in a monitoring role at Batajnica

16     1 and Batajnica 2, which were undertaken in 2001.

17             Following those two excavations, there was a break where the

18     site, the firing range was handed back to the Serb authorities.  ICMP

19     became involved again in 2002 -- in June 2002, and there was a full

20     excavation team on the site from the 20th of June up to the 16th of

21     December, 2002.

22             Following that date, the site was handed back to the Serb

23     authorities and the ICMP staff resumed their work in Bosnia.

24        Q.   And the work you conducted after June 2002 was in respect to

25     which pits?

Page 4929

 1        A.   The work from June 2002 up until December 2002 involved the

 2     location and excavation of the mass graves which are identified as

 3     Batajnica 3, Batajnica 4, Batajnica 5, Batajnica 6, Batajnica 7, and

 4     Batajnica 8.

 5        Q.   Thank you very much.

 6             MR. STAMP:  Your Honour, I don't know if it's a convenient time

 7     for the Court.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.  We'll have our first break now and

 9     resume at 11.00.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

13                           [The witness takes the stand]

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Stamp.

15             MR. STAMP:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.  That is all I

16     have for the witness in chief, may it please you.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

18             Mr. Djordjevic, do you cross-examine?

19             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  Bear with me

20     for a moment.

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. Djordjevic:

22        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Sterenberg.  My name is a Dragoljub Djordjevic

23     and I'm the Defence counsel for the accused.  I will not have many

24     questions for you, but I do hope that they will contribute to the

25     clarification of certain matters for the benefit of the Defence.

Page 4930

 1             Mr. Sterenberg, in your reports and in your statement you

 2     referred to the procedure whereby samples were extracted from mortal

 3     remains.  I think you participated in Batajnica 3 onwards where you had

 4     the role of monitor.

 5             What you were most interested in was the archeological aspect of

 6     that work which is in fact your profession, and you were there on behalf

 7     of the ICMP.  I would like to know who took the samples for the DNA

 8     analysis, that's number one, who did that physically.  Was it Serb --

 9     Serbian experts or somebody else?

10        A.   All of the samples from the sites at Batajnica, all of the hard

11     tissue samples, the bone samples, were taken by the Serbian forensic

12     pathologists who were on site.

13        Q.   At the time you were present there as a monitor, can you tell us

14     whether the procedure of taking samples was in line with the

15     international standards governing such actions?

16        A.   Yes.  All of the samples were taken in line with the

17     international standards.

18        Q.   In addition to compact tissue, i.e., bones being used for taking

19     samples, were samples for the DNA analysis taken also from soft tissues,

20     if you know?

21        A.   As far as I recollect, the samples were just hard tissue sample,

22     so bone.  If there were any other samples taken, they would have been

23     taken by the Serbian pathologists themselves.  Obviously, we would have

24     made a record of that, and I think as it's not stated in my report, then

25     probably the samples that were only taken were actually hard tissue

Page 4931

 1     samples.

 2        Q.   Am I right if I say that the DNA analysis was conducted in the

 3     ICMP laboratories?

 4        A.   Yes, that's correct.  The DNA analysis was conducted at the ICMP

 5     laboratories.

 6        Q.   As for the Batajnica locations, all of the numbers involved,

 7     Perucac and Petrovo Selo, can you tell me whether it was one in the same

 8     laboratory that conducted the DNA analysis of the samples taken there and

 9     the samples taken from purport the family members?

10        A.   The DNA analysis is actually undertaken -- or at the time of

11     Batajnica was undertaken at several laboratories.  The samples themselves

12     are blind coded, so they are anonymized, and then they are sent to one of

13     several labs, laboratories for analysis.  I think the samples were

14     undertaken fairly rapidly after the excavation, but as for the actual

15     results of those -- that analysis, that is something that as an

16     archaeologist I can't really comment on.  That's more for a DNA

17     scientist.

18        Q.   Of course, Professor.  It is my intention to ask you only about

19     the matters you witnessed in the role of monitor of the work of Serbian

20     scientists.  As for the transfer of the samples to the laboratories, was

21     it organised by the ICMP or was the responsibility for the samples taken

22     by Serbian scientists all the way to the border and from there by the

23     ICMP representatives?  I'm asking you this because I would like to know

24     if you are convinced that hard tissue samples taken for the purposes of

25     the DNA analysis were handled properly as they were being transported to

Page 4932

 1     the ICMP laboratories?

 2        A.   As I mentioned before, the samples were actually taken by the

 3     Serbian pathologists.  In that respect, they were actually taken and

 4     stored in line with standardised procedures.  The transfer of the samples

 5     from the institute to ICMP I think was undertaken by the institute

 6     itself, so that they actually contacted ICMP, let them know that the

 7     samples were ready for collection.  ICMP would then have sent a

 8     representative up to sign for all the samples that were taken, and then

 9     transfer those back to Sarajevo to the ICMP headquarters.

10        Q.   You will agree with me, will you not, if I say that you did not

11     observe any omissions in that particular procedure or any sort of

12     problems in cooperation with the expert pathologists of the Belgrade

13     Institute of Forensic Science, and scientists from the Nis Institute of

14     Forensic Science, and ultimately with Dr. Stankovic who was a pathologist

15     of the medical academy?

16        A.   I would definitely agree that the scientists from the Serbian

17     forensic institutes did an excellent job, and I myself did not observe

18     any omissions in the process at all during the time that I was at

19     Batajnica.

20        Q.   Mr. Sterenberg, you said that the way in which the graves were

21     uncovered, or rather, the attempts undertaken in respect of Batajnica 3,

22     which is where you were first present, led to certain misunderstanding as

23     to the procedures that need to be undertaken in order to recover graves.

24             However, as you are well aware, the BAO1 and BAO2, that's to say

25     Batajnica 1 and 2 graves, had been discovered earlier on.  As you were

Page 4933

 1     not personally present there at the time, I mean, you yourself and not

 2     representatives of various international organisations including the

 3     ICMP, did you perhaps notice certain omissions in the way in which the

 4     graves were first dealt with as compared with the procedures that were

 5     employed as of Batajnica 3 onwards when you were present at the location?

 6        A.   You're correct in stating that I, myself, was not personally at

 7     the excavation of Batajnica 1 and 2.  However, the senior representatives

 8     of ICMP's excavation/examination division were at the -- those sites.

 9     Their reports indicate to me that, although the process was slightly

10     different in the fact that the graves were actually located more through

11     machine trenching until bodies were encountered, the actual recovery

12     process was similar to the one that we undertook for Batajnica 3 up to

13     Batajnica 8.

14             So although there were certain differences, there were actually

15     no real omissions in the process undertaken by the teams at the time.

16        Q.   Of the laboratories which conducted the DNA analysis first aimed

17     at identifying the victims was the laboratory of the institute in Spain,

18     in Madrid, I'm referring to Dr. Antonio Alonso, microbiologist and DNA

19     expert.  I'm not sure exactly what the name of the institute was.  How do

20     you account for the fact that at the time he was delivered with 56 mortal

21     remains, apparently, and a subsequent DNA analysis established that the

22     samples in fact belonged to 41 persons only.  So the difference is of 15

23     persons which is no small thing.  How do you account for this large

24     difference in what mortal remains were expected to be in Batajnica,

25     Perucac, and Petrovo Selo?

Page 4934

 1             MR. STAMP:  Your Honour, I wonder if perhaps the question could

 2     be clarified or perhaps the difference that my friend is getting at is

 3     explained or elaborated upon.  And further, the question assumes that the

 4     witness knows a lot of information, for example, he knows about the work

 5     of Antonio Alonso, et cetera.  Some of these matters should be clarified

 6     with the witness first.  The objection is that the question is very

 7     unclear.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp, I agree entirely, but I often find it

 9     worthwhile exploring with the witness first whether he can follow the

10     question.  Often the witness knows more than we do, but if the witness

11     is -- it's confusing to you, we can work with Mr. Djordjevic and have it

12     broken up.

13             THE WITNESS:  Actually, Your Honour, I have no knowledge of any

14     samples being sent to Spain, so I'm slightly confused myself on that

15     point.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic, this may mean that that avenue

17     won't be worth pursuing.

18             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honour, I accept the

19     objection placed by my learned friend Mr. Stamp.  I put the question

20     because Dr. Antonio Alonso himself stated that he had frequent contacts

21     with the ICMP.  Hence, my assumption that Mr. Sterenberg would be

22     familiar with this matter.  Since evidently he has no knowledge of it, I

23     will not be pursuing this issue any more.  I put the same question to

24     Dr. Alonso and got his answer.  I withdraw my question therefore.

25        Q.   Mr. Sterenberg, in paragraph 8 of your statement from 2006 you

Page 4935

 1     say that paragraph 14 states that:

 2             "It was reported to the ICMP that the chassis belonged to a truck

 3     that contained the bodies from Batajnica 2.  This was reported by Dusko

 4     Nenadovic via Mark Skinner."

 5             Can you tell me who Mark skinner is, to start off?

 6        A.   Professor Mark skinner was actually the head of the forensic

 7     science division for ICMP.  And at the time of Batajnica 2, he was

 8     actually the chief forensic anthropologist for ICMP.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Who is Dusko Nenadovic?

10        A.   Dusko Nenadovic was -- was the local employee of the Serb

11     authorities that provided the logistical support to ICMP at the Batajnica

12     sites.  So he was actually a local Serb.

13        Q.   Did he take care of certain business for the ICMP, or was he in

14     the role of a witness there?

15        A.   He was not a witness, he was actually just there to provide

16     logistical support.  So for instance, if we needed an excavator, he would

17     drive the excavator for us.  If we needed tentage putting up over the

18     site to provide shelter for the team, he would actually organise that and

19     provide that for us on the site.  So in that respect he was just there,

20     as I said, in a logistical capacity.

21        Q.   In order to clear up a technical misunderstanding, in your main

22     report, Annex 7, which is page 66, the last page that is, there you

23     referred to notes which have to do with the meaning of the terms of

24     primary and secondary mass graves.  In item 1 you say that the mass

25     graves in Batajnica were somewhat problematic in the sense that you found

Page 4936

 1     that the victims had been killed in one country and transported in order

 2     to be buried in the primary grave which was located in a different

 3     country.

 4             I don't quite understand what you mean by the bodies being

 5     transported from one country to another.  Did you know what the state

 6     system prevailed in 1999 that Kosovo and Serbia constituted one country

 7     and not two?  That's what I wanted to ask you, and that's the last

 8     question I will have in my cross-examination of you, Professor.

 9        A.   At the time of the excavations in 2002, what we were trying to

10     establish was the fact that the remains or the bodies had been

11     transferred from one country to another, so as you stated in 1999 that

12     Kosovo and Serbia were actually one country, for the report we thought it

13     might be simpler to just try and explain that they were killed and

14     executed in one country and buried there, and then transported to another

15     country, i.e., Serbia for reburial.

16             So that is just something that we put in the report to try and

17     explain the process by the way that the bodies had been moved from one

18     location to another.

19        Q.   Will you agree with me that what you've just said, that the

20     bodies were moved from one location to another, would have been a more

21     appropriate expression to have used rather than that they had been

22     transferred from one country to another?

23        A.   Yes, I would agree with that as well.  I mean, movement from one

24     location to another could also be expressed as being transferred from one

25     country to another.

Page 4937

 1        Q.   I would agree with you if that was the case.  If the bodies had

 2     indeed been moved from one country to another.  But since these were two

 3     locations in the territory of one in the same country.  That was why I

 4     put the question to you.

 5             At the same time I would like to thank you for all the matters of

 6     clarification you have provide the Defence.

 7             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, I have

 8     completed my cross-examination.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you Mr. Djordjevic.

10             Mr. Stamp any re-examination?

11             MR. STAMP:  No, Your Honours, I have no re-examination.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  You're, I was going to say

13     exhaustively complete, what has, I think, enabled all the issues to be

14     understood.  We are grateful that you've been able to come and for the

15     assistance you have provided.  You, of course, now may return to your

16     normal activities and we thank you.

17             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Thanks.

18             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, in respect to the testimony which just

19     transpired, could we go into private session for one sentence.  There's

20     something I wish to say.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  We'll go into private for one moment, yes.

22                           [Private session]

23   [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Trial Chamber]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4938

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11             MR. STAMP:  Your Honour, sorry.  I wish to raise another issue in

12     respect to the witness and his testimony.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

14             MR. STAMP:  There's a matter which I think needs to be settled

15     early, and I think today, if possible, through the Court.  And the

16     question is whether or not the Defence stipulates to the three

17     confidential exhibits that are tendered through the witness.  These are

18     the DNA report, the DNA matching reports.  We had been in discussions

19     with the Defence about agreeing these report, among other documents, from

20     before the trial started.  And there were problems with the Defence

21     getting the document to their -- documents to their clients, and then the

22     trial proceeded at a rather fast pace, and we haven't been able to

23     resolve this.

24             It is very important to know whether they stipulate to the

25     contents of these documents, and I don't think we can wait any longer

Page 4939

 1     because it is clear and it has been clear before the case started that

 2     this witness could not testify to the DNA aspect.  However, the policy

 3     has been that if at all possible, we avoid having to call somebody to

 4     testify about matching DNA results for these hundreds of people.  And

 5     also some of those DNA results are quite confidential, as you would

 6     imagine.

 7             So the question really is, can at this point the Defence answer

 8     the question which we've asked for sometime now, whether or not they will

 9     stipulate to the contents of those documents, because there were some

10     questions about the DNA reports in cross-examination which causes one to

11     think that there might be an issue later on, and we don't want any issues

12     to rise later on that could be settled by the DNA expert or one of the

13     DNA experts being brought to deal with those issues.

14             So I ask through the Court whether or not we could settle this

15     issue today.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Stamp.

17             Mr. Djordjevic.

18             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honours, we are not going

19     to object to these documents since these are technical matters, and even

20     if we read that from cover to cover, we are not really qualified or able

21     to confirm whether this is correct or not.  So we are simply going to

22     accept that as the view of expert witnesses.  So Mr. Stamp's request, as

23     far as we are concerned, is not going to pose any problem.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much for that, Mr. Djordjevic.

25     Your position is extremely well understood.  I think you can proceed from

Page 4940

 1     this point, Mr. Stamp, on the basis that there is no live issue in

 2     respect of the DNA testing and the results, and that being the position,

 3     it would seem unnecessary for you to call any further scientific evidence

 4     relating to those for the purposes of the Prosecution case.

 5             That doesn't prevent you doing so if you see reason.

 6     Mr. Djordjevic has indicated a position that may well satisfy you that

 7     it's unnecessary.

 8             MR. STAMP:  Thank you very much, Your Honours, and thank you very

 9     much to learned counsel for the Defence.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Open.

11                           [Open session]

12             JUDGE PARKER:  We will make an order, Mr. Stamp, for the majority

13     of that conversation -- the whole of the conversation concerning the DNA

14     evidence and testing to be part of the public record rather than in

15     private.  By oversight, it was all in private session.  I'm sure that our

16     court officer will be able to manage that.

17             Do I take it now, Mr. Stamp, that that concludes the evidence

18     that is available for this week?

19             MR. STAMP:  Your Honour, the next witness was scheduled -- I am

20     so sorry.  The witness Thaqi who was scheduled for this week was unable

21     to attend for this week.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Then resume on Monday at 2.15 I believe.

23             We would thank counsel for their assistance this week, and we are

24     encouraged that there is an improvement in the speed with which the trial

25     is progressing.  And we wish you a restful weekend and we'll adjourn

Page 4941

 1     until 2.15 on Monday.

 2                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.38 a.m.

 3                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 25th day of May,

 4                           2009, at 2.15 p.m.