1 Thursday, 11 June 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, General. The affirmation you made
7 to tell the truth still applies, and Mr. Djurdjic is near the end of his
9 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Well, the
10 end is in sight, obviously.
11 WITNESS: ALEKSANDAR VASILJEVIC [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Djurdjic: [Continued]
14 Q. Good morning, General.
15 A. Good morning.
16 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I have a few more documents for us
17 to go through so may we have Defence Exhibit D003-2555 next, please.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see this document. It
19 hasn't got the stamp, I don't know why. There's just a handwritten
20 entry, but that's not contentious; I know that the judiciary and the
21 court's function during the war.
22 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. This is a document
23 about mobilisation, mobilised courts, and military prosecutors and so on.
24 And I'd like to tender this document into evidence, please.
25 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned D00199, Your Honours.
2 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] The next document, please, is
3 exhibit under 65 ter 1918.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see the document.
5 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. It just shows us that the Supreme Command staff throughout the
7 war took account of the judiciary and military courts and the importance
8 that it attached to them; do you agree with that, that that is the gist
9 of this document?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can I tender this
13 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D00200, Your Honours.
15 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] The next exhibit is D003-2753, a
16 Defence document.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the same thing again. I'm
18 familiar with this kind of format and this kind of document once again
19 relating to the military courts.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this
22 document into evidence now, please.
23 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
24 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned D00201, Your Honours.
25 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] The next document is D003-2736.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May we zoom in if you want me to
2 read through the document to see what it actually says, please.
3 Yes, here we have the priorities set out in conducting criminal
4 proceedings, and I can see that the date is the 8th of June, which is
5 almost the end of the war.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] And may I tender this document
8 into evidence.
9 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
10 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned D00202, Your Honours.
11 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. The next document is
13 Q. General, am I right in saying that this is a document from the
14 president of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia dated the
15 18th of April, 1992 [sic]. It is in fact an order, and the application
16 of Article 17 of the Law on Defence and Subordination pursuant to that,
17 or resubordination?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender this document
20 now, please.
21 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
22 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned D00203, Your Honours.
23 MR. STAMP: At line 14, I suspect the year is 1999, although we
24 can see that from the document.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, the transcript wrongly has 1992. Thank you.
1 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't think we need
2 to correct that, do we?
3 JUDGE PARKER: I see the document is dated -- it appears as
4 though it could be 1992, and yet I suspect it's a 9, 1999, that is
5 underlined. That may be the source of the mistake.
6 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it's a document dated the
7 18th of April, 1999. And then we have other documents, one we saw by the
8 chief of the Supreme Command, and I'm now going to propose to put forth
9 two more documents which are a set and follow on from this order on
11 So I hope the usher won't mind if I've got the number wrong, 65
12 ter document, 1722 is the number according to my records, but I might
13 have got that wrong, so I apologise if I have. And it is not exhibited
14 yet. It's an order by the commander of the 3rd Army dated the
15 20th of April, 1999. Yes, it has been admitted. I'm told it has been
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Do you want me to comment?
18 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] No. Well, I'd like to tender
19 this document now. The next document under 65 ter is 1504 --
20 JUDGE PARKER: Just a minute, please. These documents are of
21 varying importance and those that are more important we are trying to
22 absorb as we go, Mr. Djurdjic.
23 It will be received.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, document under 65 ter 01722 will be
25 assigned D00204.
1 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] The next document under
2 65 ter is 1504, please.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is a whole series of
4 documents relating to resubordination of the MUP organs, and this is at
5 the level of the Pristina Corps, assignment to the brigades.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Do you tender that, Mr. Djurdjic?
7 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
9 THE REGISTRAR: And that will be assigned D00205, Your Honours.
10 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. The next document I'd
11 like called up under 65 ter is 2809.
12 Q. General, this is another order of the Pristina Corps dated the
13 25th of April. Do you agree that by this order the Pristina Corps in
14 fact sets out in greater detail the order that was issued previously of
15 the 3rd Army of the 20th of April, 1999?
16 A. Yes, that's right. And what is regulated here in point 4 is that
17 the military conscripts which had thus far been temporarily engaged in
18 the MUP reserve units be returned to their original war units, and that
19 is set out in point 4.
20 Q. Would you look at para 1, please.
21 A. In para 1 or point 1, it says that these units should remain
22 Special Police units, and the territorial units of MUP, that is to say
23 the OPG and others, the detachments, which were locally positioned. They
24 remained within the composition and under the authority of the MUP
1 Q. No, no, read point 1.
2 A. Engage forces of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia
3 PJP Special Police forces, manoeuvre detachments, and MUP territorial
4 units to carry out combat tasks in the PRK zone. In the zone of the
5 Pristina Corps -- let me repeat, engage the units of the MUP of Serbia
6 and then: Manoeuvre detachments, Special Police units, and
7 MUP territorial units. Other forces and institutions shall continue to
8 remain under the jurisdiction of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia
9 So these units are being resubordinated and still remain under
10 the army and outside that composition they come under the jurisdiction of
12 Q. Thank you, General. That means that these units, the PJP units
13 and the manoeuvre detachments and territorial units are resubordinated
14 whereas other organisational units continue to perform their tasks under
15 the jurisdiction of the ministry of the Republic of Serbia
16 A. Yes. And this is in conformity with the principles of
17 resubordination, the forces are resubordinated for combat whereas -- and
18 these are units carrying out combat operations.
19 Q. When it comes to combat operations, would you agree with me when
20 I say that during the war in 1999, this resubordination was carried out
21 at the level of the brigades, and that it was the brigades who were the
22 protagonists of the combat action, who engaged in combat action?
23 A. Yes, that is correct, because the brigades were tactical units,
24 that is, the lowest level or rather highest level of tactical units. Not
25 the lowest, I meant to say highest. The highest tactical unit which in
1 fact organises and carries out complex combat operations.
2 Q. Thank you. And would you agree with me when I say that not a
3 single corps operation that is operation of the Pristina Corps during the
4 war was carried out?
5 A. Well, you know what, I can't say that because the corps is given
6 the task and assignment from the army command; and all corps units,
7 therefore, objectively speaking, are deployed and engaged. And if you
8 look at the orders from the corps command, for instance, in point 4 where
9 the decision is made as to the manner in which the corps will be deployed
10 and engaged, later on through point 5 all the corps units, almost all of
11 them are given combat assignments.
12 Now, whether that is in fact a corps operation, I would say that
13 all the forces of the corps, the combat forces of the corps, were engaged
14 for the most part.
15 Q. All right. We'll go into that subject with somebody else then.
16 The corps operations during the war didn't exist, they were all at the
17 level of the brigade. But let's move on, I'll take that up with someone
19 A. All right.
20 Q. General, am I right in saying that the MUP and its organs were
21 not the subject of operative processing of the security administration?
22 A. Yes, you are right.
23 Q. Thank you. Now, as we've come to the war, let me say -- ask you
24 this: Pursuant to the Law on Defence, it is the duty of all state organs
25 including the MUP to compile a war plan?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you. Now, did the MUP too have to, in view of the
3 situation that existed at the beginning of 1999 and at the end of 1998,
4 have to take measures in conformity with its war plan and pursuant to its
5 war plan?
6 A. Not only in conformity with the war plan, but also in conformity
7 with the situation on the ground. Because a war plan is devised and made
8 up for an assumed situation in the future which emanates from an
9 estimation that that situation would come about. So that -- and those
10 documents are termed the state secret. And then the plan is updated.
11 Now, MUP action is commensurate to the situation on the ground which can
12 be outside what has been planned in a war plan.
13 Q. Thank you. I don't know if you know that within the
14 Ministry of the Interior there was a department charged with war
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. That department closely cooperated with the corresponding
18 services of the Army of Yugoslavia?
19 A. Yes. As well as with all other organs of the Ministry of Defence
20 and the various companies which were supposed to have their own war plans
21 devised. Some institutions and companies had to have developed their own
22 war plans in keeping with the orders of the level of the country.
23 Q. As regards the department of the MUP, accordingly all army units
24 had similar war plans because there was a need to act in a harmonised way
25 when implementing all those war plans?
1 A. Yes, it was envisaged that even lower-ranking units have their
2 own war plans in keeping with the general war plan of the MUP of the
3 Republic of Serbia
4 Q. Thank you. Am I right in saying that according to the war plans
5 there was a possibility envisaged that various commands and other state
6 organs and institutions be transferred to another location?
7 A. One of the activities was deployment or movement to the war
9 Q. In the army, it is the main command post, a forward command post,
10 and as for civilian organs it -- they had their own locations?
11 A. Yes, but not only command posts, but also material supplies which
12 would then be transferred from peacetime locations to wartime locations.
13 Q. Thank you. Did you know that the Ministry of the Interior
14 relocated from Knez Milos Street 103 at the beginning of the war when the
15 state of war was declared?
16 A. I know that by that time everyone had relocated and that most of
17 those buildings were empty at the time when targeted.
18 Q. Thank you. Did you know that the ministers and chiefs of
19 services were relocated to various locations around Belgrade?
20 A. I don't know where they relocated, but since their buildings were
21 empty, they must have had their war locations.
22 Q. Did you know that the ministry by virtue of its activity, which
23 covered the entire territory of Serbia
25 A. I don't know where they directed operations from.
1 Q. Thank you. Did you see the minister, Vlajko Stojiljkovic, during
2 the war?
3 A. I did not.
4 Q. Thank you. Did you hear that the ministry or rather certain of
5 its parts were in different locations, one of those being the commercial
6 bank in Belgrade
7 A. I don't know that. I only know for the location of the state
8 security service that was in Belgrade
9 THE INTERPRETER: The speakers are overlapping and not pausing,
10 they'll have to repeat the last two questions and answers.
11 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. We'll have to repeat. Can you tell me where was the state
13 security service relocated?
14 A. When we attended a meeting during the war to see
15 Mr. Rade Markovic, we went to the general area of Dedinje towards the
16 highway and greenhouse.
17 Q. Thank you. Given the nature of your work, you were familiar in
18 terms of cooperation with the state security sector rather than the
19 public security sector given the different remits of the two sectors?
20 A. Our basic tasks coincided more with the tasks of the state
21 security service than the public security service. In any case, we
22 cooperated with both of them if there were such problems that required
23 cooperation with the public security sector, although it did not happen
24 as frequently as with the state security service.
25 Q. Thank you. I looked through some documents and it seems to me
1 that you cooperated mostly with the state security in bringing in
2 conscripts which -- who fled their units or were supposed to report to
3 their units; therefore, the police had most work in that regard?
4 A. There was no need for us to meet in particular with the
5 republican sector of public security because the number of such people
6 was not so great. Our manning strength was almost always up to
7 100 per cent. In any case, this would have been one of the regular tasks
8 which would require our communication.
9 Q. Thank you. Am I right in saying that throughout the war, the
10 public security sector performed their legally prescribed security
11 related tasks such as keeping public law and order, detecting and
12 prosecuting crimes and defenders, as well as traffic control, border
13 control, fire-fighting, and administrative tasks?
14 A. I suppose so.
15 Q. Since there was a state of war, did you know that in the entire
16 territory of the Republic of Serbia
17 in certain locations that were targeted?
18 A. Yes, and also should there have been a location that was bombed,
19 they were in charge of on-site investigations.
20 Q. And the other tasks I mentioned such as fire-fighting, those were
21 all tasks of the public security sector?
22 A. Yes, and they were quite successful in that.
23 Q. Did you know that the police had to be informed of all locations
24 that were bombed in order for them to draft reports, and that was one of
25 the main tasks of the public security sector throughout Serbia?
1 A. You are correct.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask -- well, not
5 Q. General, are you familiar in detail with the functioning and
6 organisation of the Ministry of the Interior, or does your knowledge come
7 as a result of your long career and the tasks you worked on?
8 A. I know the ministry in general, not in a detailed fashion, since
9 there was no need for it.
10 Q. You must know, I believe, that the minister prescribes the way
11 minister tasks are to be implemented and he also provides instructions on
12 how to do so?
13 A. I think any minister does that within their own respective
15 Q. Thank you. Certain details you mentioned such as decisions on
16 the formation of the Special Anti-Terrorist Unit as well as PJP police
17 units comes from your general knowledge rather than from you seeing those
18 specific documents during the war?
19 A. I did not see such documents, but I do know that such units
20 existed, and I'm familiar with their basic tasks.
21 Q. Thank you. But you probably don't know who it was that could
22 order the assembly and deployment of such units and in what way, are you
23 familiar with such details?
24 A. The assembly of such units, as far as I know, was done in 1998
25 due to the situation in Kosovo, and they were sent there in shifts. This
1 concerns the PJP units. They rotated. I don't know, though, whether
2 their shifts lasted for a fortnight or three weeks.
3 Q. You now said that these units rotated, who was it that could make
4 a decision about that, are you familiar with that?
5 A. I'm not. I suppose that was regulated by virtue of the orders of
6 the minister of the interior and tasks were assigned pursuant to what had
7 been decided on the sessions of the Supreme Defence Council, or the
8 sessions of another body.
9 MR. DJORDJEVIC: Thank you.
10 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could I have document P57.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Did you mean to tender the last document we
13 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I thought we
14 have dealt with that document some time ago, but obviously I'm not
15 focused enough today. I would kindly seek to tender that document.
16 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Document under 65 ter 02809, Your Honours, will
18 be assigned D00206.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see it, and I see the names
20 of the persons tasked with specific tasks.
21 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Did you know that the person in charge of this staff for the
23 suppression of terrorism was Sreten Lukic in June 1998?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And deputy head of the staff, do you know that it was
1 David Gajic?
2 A. I know him, but I didn't know he was the deputy head of the
4 Q. Can you tell us where did David Gajic work?
5 A. In the state security sector.
6 Q. In addition to being a member of the staff, do you know whether
7 he held any other positions in Kosova-Metohija in 1998?
8 A. He was in charge of the state security sector in Kosova-Metohija.
9 Q. Thank you. The fourth name, can you tell us who that is,
10 assistant head for special operations?
11 A. It was Milorad Lukovic, aka Legija, who otherwise commanded the
12 JSO units of the public security sector.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: State security
15 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please go to page 2 now.
16 Q. At the end of the list, can you have a look at that portion of
17 the document and tell us who were the additional members of the staff?
18 A. The way it is written it included chiefs of the
19 Secretariats for Internal Affairs and centres and branches of the RDB in
20 Kosova-Metohija. On request of the head of the person in charge of the
21 staff, other employees of the ministry may be appointed.
22 Q. In item 2 we see the task of the staff. Do you agree with me
23 that it was to plan, organise, and control the work and engagement of
24 organisational units of the ministry; and also sent and detached units in
25 suppressing terrorists in the autonomous province of Kosova-Metohija
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you. Can you comment item 3 for me, please?
3 MR. STAMP: Doesn't the witness indicate that he doesn't know
4 about the organisation of the MUP in terms of his management? He just
5 has a general knowledge of it. If he is shown a document like this and
6 ask a question like that, he is of necessity speculating, he's being
7 asked to speculate.
8 JUDGE PARKER: I believe what he is being asked to do is merely
9 repeat what the document says, which is not of great value to us. He is
10 not inputting his own knowledge. This is the way I understand the
12 Continue, Mr. Djurdjic.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have read it, and I see that this
14 head of the staff was answerable to the minister concerning his actions.
15 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Does this correspond to what you know, what you knew about the
17 staff in 1998 and 1999?
18 A. Only in part. I'm reading this with some attention because all
19 the details are included. It's a shame if the commander of the
20 Pristina Corps was not acquainted with this document because they had
21 joint meetings. I see this document for the first time. Given my
22 position, there was no need for me to see it earlier. However, I find it
23 interesting to see who the persons involved were, some of whom I do know
24 and, well, others I don't.
25 Q. Between 1999 and today during which period you gave statements on
1 the functioning of the MUP and you provided your opinion, you did not
2 know about this document?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Witness, after you were re-activated in service, did you attend
5 meetings of the Supreme Defence Council?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Thank you. Since you were re-activated, did you attend the
8 collegium meetings of the Chief of Staff of the Supreme Command of the
9 Yugoslav Army?
10 A. During the war I did not, and after the war I think I did on two
12 Q. Thank you. From the moment when you were re-activated, did you
13 attend, occasionally, government meetings, meetings of the government of
15 A. No.
16 Q. Thank you. You will correct me if I'm mistaken, but I believe
17 that from March up until the end of the war, you saw -- you went to see
18 the president of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia on three occasions,
19 President Slobodan Milosevic?
20 A. I did see him three times.
21 Q. Thank you. Am I correct that you were not present when reports
22 were submitted to the supreme commander and president of the FRY,
23 Slobodan Milosevic?
24 A. I was not present, and I do not know who reported to him, who
25 submitted the reports to him.
1 Q. Thank you. Now, did you attend the briefings at the office of
2 the president of the Republic of Serbia
3 A. No, I never even saw him.
4 Q. Thank you. And did you attend the briefings at the office of the
5 president of the federal government, Momir Pjeletovic?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you attend briefings at the office of the president of the
8 government of the Republic of Serbia
9 A. No.
10 Q. Thank you. Now, do you know that the federal minister of the
11 interior was Mr. Zoran Sokolovic during the war and before the war?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you. Do you know that the deputy minister -- the deputy
14 federal minister of the interior was General Mile Puzovic?
15 A. I did not know what his position was, but I did know that he held
16 a responsible duty.
17 Q. Thank you. In view of what you knew about the state security
18 sector in the course of your work, you told us over the past days that
19 Jovica Stanisic requested when he was -- when Vlajko Stojiljkovic was
20 appointed minister, that he brief the minister directly, that he report
21 to the minister directly. Did I understand this correctly?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you. And am I right in saying that at that time when the
24 president of Republic of Serbia
25 the Republic of Serbia
1 A. No, at that time he was the president of the FRY.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Now, could I please -- could we
4 please have document 3203 pulled up on the screen.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the counsel please
6 repeat the document number.
7 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] D003-3203.
8 MR. STAMP: Were we notified of this one?
9 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that
10 Ms. O'Leary did do this, that she supplemented our list, and I would
11 appreciate it -- let me check if we have it. That's ERN number
12 K022-7740. But, Your Honour, I believe there is an error in the
13 transcript, an error in the formulation of my question.
14 Q. My question was, did I understand correctly that you said that
15 Jovica Stanisic when he was -- when Minister Vlajko Stojiljkovic was
16 appointed as minister, that he did not report to him and brief him? And
17 the witness said?
18 A. Well, as far -- as far as the information that I'm aware of is
19 concerned, I can't say that this was done at the moment when he was
20 appointed, when Vlajko Stojiljkovic was appointed minister. Rather when
21 he -- during the time when he was minister and when he asked for
22 Jovica Stanisic to brief him, he refused to do so and he requested that
23 he be seen by President Milosevic. And I can say this man is no longer
24 living, he died a while back so we can't really check on this, but that's
25 what I said.
1 Q. Yes, but you told me then that at the time the president of the
2 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was Slobodan Milosevic; correct?
3 A. Yes. I did look at this document, this was the period April 1997
4 and the signature there is of the President of Serbia Slobodan Milosevic.
5 However, it isn't clear what kind of guide-lines are mentioned here. The
6 sector of state security will conduct its operations in keeping with the
7 guide-lines of the president of the Republic of Serbia
8 what these guide-lines are.
9 Q. Since we do not have the translation of this, would you please
10 read this decision from the start, starting with "state secret" please
11 read it so that it's clear.
12 A. Yes:
13 "Pursuant to Article 83 of the constitution of the
14 Republic of Serbia
15 time when preparations are made to adopt the federal law on security of
16 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, the sector of state security will
17 conduct its operations in keeping with the guide-lines of the president
18 of the republic and the government of the Republic of Serbia
19 moment when this decision comes into force up until the day when the
20 federal law is adopted, which in keeping with the constitution of the
21 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia provides that the tasks of security will
22 be set forth in keeping with the jurisdiction of the Federal Republic
23 of Yugoslavia
25 And then the signature is the president of the republic,
1 Slobodan Milosevic.
2 Q. Would you please repeat the year when this was adopted?
3 A. I've already said that, it was adopted on the
4 21st of April, 1997.
5 Q. Thank you. I asked you to repeat this because what I heard as a
6 translation was 1977, that's why I wanted you to repeated the year.
7 Witness, at the time when this decision was adopted, do you agree
8 that the president of Serbia
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And that relates to the the portion of your testimony where you
11 said that the chief of the sector was to report or brief him?
12 A. No, it was like this: Both during the time of Rade Markovic and
13 all other ministers, the sector of security, of state security, was
14 within the Ministry of the Interior. That was how it was legally
16 But as for in practice, practically the greatest influence over
17 its work and the influence that was exerted on this person was -- or came
18 from the relationship between the president of the Republic of Serbia
19 and the chief of the state security. And I can go back to 1997, the year
20 when I came into this service.
21 Regardless of how this was regulated by law, this man was
22 directly connected or directly related to and briefed the president of
24 Q. That's what I was going to ask you about. Now, do you know what
25 the constitutional provisions are of the authority of the president of
1 the Republic of Serbia
2 of 1991, and what his competencies are in the area of state security?
3 A. I don't know what the constitution provides.
4 Q. Thank you. Now, let me ask you this: Did you know that at this
5 time Mr. Rade Markovic was assistant minister of the interior? So I'm
6 talking about 1977.
7 A. You mean 1997?
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. Whose assistant was he?
10 Q. Assistant minister of the interior, and I think for crime, for
11 general crime.
12 A. Yes, I know he was in the public security service.
13 Q. Thank you. Now, I would like to ask you about this --
14 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document
15 into evidence with an MFI
16 JUDGE PARKER: Well, it won't be received; it will be marked for
18 THE REGISTRAR: And that will be assigned D00207 MFI,
19 Your Honours.
20 JUDGE PARKER: And while we are dealing with that, the document
21 that you showed to the witness before this one, the decision to establish
22 the ministerial staff for the suppression of terrorism, for the record it
23 should be noted that is in fact Exhibit P57. Thank you.
24 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. Witness --
1 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please pull up
2 65 ter document 5231. Can we please pull it up on the screens. I
3 apologise, the number should be -- of this document should be 5231.
4 Q. Witness, as far as you know, when was the change at the head of
5 the sector of state security carried out?
6 A. In early October 1998.
7 Q. Thank you. We can see here a decision to set up a collegium of
8 the minister of the interior, and I refer you to items 2 and 3. Could
9 you tell us who the members of this collegium were?
10 A. Yes, I've seen it.
11 Q. Could you please tell us the names for the record?
12 A. Well, since this document is going to be admitted, I can read the
14 Q. No, just tell us the names.
15 A. Radomir Markovic and his assistant Nikola Curcic -- his deputy,
16 Nikola Curcic
17 Q. Thank you. So at the time when this document was issued,
18 Radomir Markovic was the assistant minister chief of the state security
19 and Nikola Curcic was the deputy chief of the state security department;
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And they were members of the collegium of the
23 Minister of the Interior Vlajko Stojiljkovic; is that different compared
24 to the period when Jovica Stanisic was at the head of the sector?
25 A. No, I don't know; but I assume there was no difference.
1 Q. Well, before this decision was issued, the chief of the
2 department or the sector did not attend the meetings of the collegium of
3 the minister of the interior, whereas here we see that those meetings
4 were attended also by the chief and the deputy chief of the state
5 security sector?
6 A. I don't know how it was done during the period before this
7 collegium, but I know that the sector of the interior, the sector of
8 security, was a sector and not a service. And I said in general terms
9 speaking that there were two sectors within the Ministry of the Interior:
10 the state security and the public security sectors.
11 So it would be logical that throughout the service one of the
12 members of the collegium should also be the chief of the state security
13 because he belongs to the Ministry of the Interior, and I assumed that
14 that was the case before 1998, that it was the case in 1991 as well.
15 Q. Well, let's move on. Your assumption is wrong, and that's why I
16 wanted to point this document out to you.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic, you keep stating facts. You are not
18 giving evidence. You must only ask questions of the witness. You don't
19 tell him your assumption is wrong. I'm sure you understand the basic
20 rules in that regard. Thank you.
21 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I did not mean to
22 pursue this. I was going to move on.
23 Q. So, Witness, in your testimony so far you did not have in mind
24 this document that I just pointed out to you, but you told us about the
25 organisation of the Ministry of the Interior and what kind of
1 relationships within it existed?
2 A. I did not know of this document, but I did not speak about the
3 details. I always said that I knew what the organisation and structure
4 was in general terms.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this document is a
7 65 ter document, but it -- in its original form -- in its original form,
8 this document is a two-page document and then there are some attachments
9 which I have no idea how were forwarded to the OTP. So my proposal is
10 that the first two pages of this document be adopted -- admitted into
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE PARKER: The whole document will be received.
14 THE REGISTRAR: And that, Your Honours, will be assigned D00208.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Perhaps the second page can be brought onto the
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I've seen the entire document
19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
20 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Witness, I'd like now to move on to another area. When you were
22 in control from the 1st to the 7th of June in the Pristina Corps, I
23 assume, and the 3rd Army, you talked to Sergej Perovic. Am I right in
24 saying that he provided you with the initial information and that he said
25 that that information should be verified?
1 A. What do you mean, what part of his briefing and reporting?
2 Q. I mean in Djakovica when he told you about the OPG.
3 A. No, that wasn't the initial information that I received and
4 whether they should be verified and enhanced. Before that, I came to
5 take over reports that were compiled by the security organs; and I
6 received all these reports in great detail. And later on, the chief of
7 the security sector of the 3rd Army compiled a summary.
8 Now, what Sergej put forward, and relating to information on the
9 ground where his brigade was located and so on, that was what he knew at
10 the time; and there was no need to go into them in depth or to verify
11 them. They were just received as a byproduct if I can use that term, as
12 a byproduct to what he learned in relation to his regular work. So I
13 didn't need to check it out nor was I in a position to do that.
14 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Well, I don't know if
15 we need -- but let's look at the next document, and it is D003-2879,
16 page 21083, lines 22 to 25.
17 Q. General, it's part of the statement made by Sergej Perovic, his
18 testimony, in connection with what he was informing you about in
19 Djakovica. And his answer when asked was:
20 "I was given the assignment to check the veracity of those
21 allegations, which I did. I spent a few days trying to establish the
22 possible truth of this allegation; and after that, I informed
23 Colonel Stojanovic that I was unable to confirm these allegations."
24 A. And who gave him the assignment to check it out?
25 Q. Well, when you were with him there and talked to him, he says
1 that he checked it all out and that he informed Colonel Stojanovic with
2 respect to that verification conducted by him.
3 Perhaps Stojanovic gave him this task of assignment, but anyway
4 it was with respect to what he reported to you?
5 A. Well, I didn't give him any assignment to check this out. I
6 don't know whether he received an assignment later on from someone and
7 whether he acted upon it or not. I just told you what he reported to me,
8 and that this was as I say, a byproduct of general information, that it
9 wasn't my duty to check it out or take it any further than that.
10 Q. Thank you. In your testimony over the past few days --
11 A. I'm sorry, may I make myself clearer. If somebody needed to
12 check this out then what they should have done was the chief of the
13 security of the Pristina Corps should send a letter to the staff of the
14 MUP of Kosovo and say, According to our additional information, we have
15 received information that such and such had happened; please inform us
16 whether this is reliable information or not.
17 So that is now this should have been done. I don't see how else.
18 Q. Thank you. You've just remind me of something else, the document
19 of the 25th of May, 1999, Pavkovic's, you've just reminded me of that.
20 Do you happen to remember that General Pavkovic and General Lukic on the
21 4th of May submitted a report to the president of the
22 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and that a statement was issued to that
23 effect about that?
24 A. I don't know about that. I said that I was in Montenegro on the
25 4th of May.
1 Q. I see. Thank you. Then we can move on.
2 Yesterday, you mentioned -- well, I think you said that a
3 politician from the SPS was Vlatkovic, can I remind you and tell you that
4 there was a politician called Matkovic and that he was the minister for
5 industry in the government of the Republic of Serbia
6 a company at that time.
7 A. Yes, you are quite right.
8 Q. That he was in charge of developmental issues, the development of
9 the economy in Kosovo and Metohija, do you remember that?
10 A. I don't know what he was in charge of, but I do know that he was
11 an official --
12 Q. And a minister of the government of the Republic of Serbia
13 A. Why minister? Minister for what?
14 Q. Minister of industry.
15 A. Thank you, I didn't know about that.
16 MR. STAMP: At line 24 of the last page, I heard words after the
17 word "official," and I think it might be corrected later. I think for
18 the purpose of today's proceedings, we should know what the witness said
19 there. He said I know he was an official, and I heard the interpreters
20 say something, but it's not recorded here.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Are you going to have that confirmed with the
22 witness, Mr. Djurdjic?
23 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I can. Let me see what it
24 is, what you want me to do. I'm not clear on what I need to do. Line,
25 what did you say the line was?
1 [Defence counsel confer]
2 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I see.
3 Q. In line 24 we have an official, but I know that he was an
4 official, what did you say, Witness? An official of what? Did you say
5 he had a high-ranking position or what?
6 A. I don't know, I don't know what you are talking about.
7 Q. With respect to Matkovic?
8 A. You asked me whether I knew that in the government of Serbia
9 there was a Mr. Matkovic, and I said that yes I did know that; I was
10 aware of that. So it's not Vlatkovic, it's Matkovic. I said Vlatkovic,
11 but it's with an M, Matkovic. So you asked me whether it might have been
12 Matkovic, and I said, Yes. And was he in the government of Serbia
13 the director of --
14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the name of what he
15 was director of. Thank you.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You told me he was the minister of
17 industry, I didn't know about that. But as I don't know English, I can't
18 really say.
19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters kindly request that the
20 witness repeat what the man was director of. Sartid, it sounded like
22 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Yes, he was director of Sartid. S-a-r-t-i-d.
24 A. Yes, it was a company in Smederevo.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. That's got to the bottom of
18 [Private session]
11 Pages 5902-5907 redacted. Private session.
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
15 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. General, I'll move to the 8th of May, 1999, when
17 Lieutenant-Colonel Djurovic came to see you. The reason why he came was
18 the group of volunteers that entered Kosovo and Metohija circumventing
19 the regular procedure. It was the Petrusic family, I believe that was
20 why he came to see you?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. On that occasion he informed you about Podujevo and mentioned the
23 Skorpions and the crime that took place there. Did you know at the time
24 that that group immediately following the incident was returned from
25 Podujevo to Prolom Banja in Serbia
1 A. I don't know whether they were returned, he didn't tell me
2 anything about that. General Pavkovic found that group in Prolom Banja,
3 and I have already discussed that.
4 Q. Thank you. Now, you said that you issued an order to the
5 counter-intelligence group from Novi Sad to run checks. I suppose that
6 was because you had heard those people originally came from Vojvodina?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to see the
10 65 ter document 4047.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I see the rest of the page?
12 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. I think this is the end of the page. The only thing at the
14 bottom is security administration.
15 A. I'm not familiar with this document at all. There are also some
16 incorrect facts. For example, if I see correctly, that they were in
17 Bubanj Potok. They were issued uniforms in Bubanj Potok. No, no. As
18 General Pavkovic reported, they were in NATO uniform with SAJ insignia.
19 They could not have been in Bubanj Potok because at that time the
20 reception centre, if that is what is alluded to, was already in Grocka.
21 This is a highly suspicious document. I don't know of this
22 document in security administration. It is the 13th of May. Then the
23 13th of May is security day and no one is in the office that day. We all
24 attend ceremonies. I'm quite doubtful as to this document.
25 Q. But this document does have a ledger number?
1 A. This comes from the Supreme Command staff and security
3 Q. I know, but this document is on the list of the Prosecution. We
4 received it from them.
5 A. I don't know whose it is. In any case, it never says "security
6 administration" at the bottom page. You always have the signature be it
7 of the head or deputy head of administration. How they could have been
8 issued with uniforms in the collection centre for volunteers? First of
9 all, we didn't have any NATO uniforms and General Pavkovic saw them
10 immediately upon his arrival in Prolom Banja and they were sporting those
11 uniforms and I informed Sainovic accordingly.
12 Q. Where did you see that?
13 A. They went through the barricade in Bubanj Potok and on the
14 28th of March reached Prolom Banja. They were there awaited by Boca.
15 Q. No military facility is mentioned?
16 A. Yes, but we all know that there was mention of the volunteer
17 reception centre in Bubanj Potok. It says also they were issued with
18 uniforms; they could not have received those at the barricade.
19 The Bubanj Potok location is a toll booth on the highway. And at
20 Bubanj Potok there was there was a barracks which housed the volunteer
21 reception centre; but soon after it was targeted and destroyed, the
22 centre was moved to Grocka. And that's where I was, after being
23 re-activated. After being re-activated on the 27th of April, by that
24 time that centre had been moved to Grocka.
25 Q. We have witness testimony as to how things developed, but there
1 is no mention of the Bubanj Potok facility in the document. In any case,
2 let's move on, there is a mention of 100 volunteers from Becej and Sid;
3 do you see it in the first paragraph?
4 A. That's not an issue. Some information was checked pursuant to
5 the document of the 12th of May. And Milan Milanovic, aka Mrgud, is
6 mentioned. But in our document there is also mention made of
7 Dalibor Novakovic, whom I don't see here. So some facts do tally, others
8 do not.
9 Q. Do you agree that this group went to Podujevo?
10 A. I can't say so in relation to this document. I testified to
11 information received via Djurovic and what I learned from the
12 intelligence group in Novi Sad
13 and 150 people involved, that there were two groups, one of which was
14 formed by Mrgud and so on and so forth. They also returned two or three
15 days before the report was drafted. They returned from Kosovo in early
16 May according to that information.
17 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that the group that was Podujevo within
19 that was assembled by Goran Hadzic?
20 A. I don't know, I can't say anything. That group was assembled
21 subsequently. In our report, it was stated that they were gathering
22 again to leave for Kosovo and then General Ojdanic told us that that
23 group should be prevented from reaching Kosovo at any cost. That group
24 was formed subsequently. Vice-President Sainovic said so when he said
25 that the SAJ
1 and Rade Markovic said that they were a necessary evil in any war. I
2 don't know what is in dispute about that.
3 Q. Concerning the two groups, I wanted to cite you in the
4 Milutinovic case, if I can quickly find that, concerning the Hadzic
6 A. Zivan Chetnik was behind the Hadzic group, I believe; right?
7 Zivan Sokolovacki, aka Chetnik. Goran Hadzic was behind that group, and
8 that group was supposed to go to Kosovo.
9 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I don't seem to be able to find
10 it. Let's move on.
11 Q. Witness, did you know that in 1991 in Slavonia in order to secure
12 the oil rigs of the oil industry company of Krajina, a unit was formed
13 tasked with providing security of that company?
14 A. I didn't know that in 1991. Only when we ran checks on the
15 Skorpions unit did we learn something about that. There were also
16 articles in the weekly Vreme that dealt with it. In any case, in 1991 I
17 wasn't aware of that.
18 Q. Thank you. Did you they that the Vukovar Brigade in 1991 up to
19 1996 used that unit as necessary as a reserve force of the
20 Army of Republika Srpska? No, not Republika Srpska but the
21 Army of Republika Srpska Krajina?
22 A. Which Vukovar Brigade? What brigade is that?
23 Q. The Army of the Republika Srpska Krajina?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. Did you know that in 1996 when UNPROFOR took over Slavonia,
1 Baranja, and western Serbia
2 weapons and equipment?
3 A. I told you I don't know about the Vukovar Brigade and what took
4 place in 1996.
5 Q. I'm asking you whether you know whether the unit was disbanded,
6 the security unit, handing over their weapons and equipment?
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have -- well, I
10 first want to seek to tender this document, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE PARKER: The witness says A, he doesn't know it; B, he's
12 doubtful to its authenticity, as I understand his evidence. You can have
13 it marked for identification, but I don't think there's a secure enough
14 foundation for it to be received in evidence at the moment. It will be
15 marked for identification.
16 THE REGISTRAR: And that will be assigned D00210 MFI,
17 Your Honours.
18 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I think I
19 have already mentioned that this document was received from the
20 Prosecution. We merely made use of it.
21 Q. Witness, am I right in saying that only after the war, perhaps in
22 2000 or 2001, it was learned for the first time that this unit may have
23 committed crimes before 1999?
24 A. No. On the 17th of May, we briefed President Milosevic, as I've
25 explained. The procedure was initiated by Natasa Kandic or the issue was
1 raised by her, and then a trial ensued in Prokuplje. Some of them
2 were -- some of them were provisionally released and issuing threats to
3 the president of the court in Belgrade
4 Q. You did not understand my question. I'm not talking about
5 Podujevo. Only after the war, after 1999, it was learned that they may
6 have committed crimes prior to 1999.
7 A. I don't know that. I know that there were subjects of some
8 articles of the weekly Vreme, but I don't know when that was.
9 Q. That was after the end of the war in 1999.
10 A. Even before that, the Vreme wrote on paramilitary formations and
11 I believe they were mentioned.
12 Q. In 1999, did you have any information?
13 A. I've already said I did not.
14 Q. Thank you. Could we now please --
15 JUDGE PARKER: Can we be clear as to what unit you are speaking
16 of? There's a whole section of transcript there and nobody has
17 identified the unit.
18 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Witness, we -- what we have been discussing throughout here
20 referring to the period from the 8th of May, 1999, when
21 Djuric [as interpreted] came to see you, we were discussing the Skorpions
22 unit; correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please pull up
1 document -- Defence document D003-1945. What I would like now to be
2 shown is page 8718, line 15.
3 Q. Witness, in response to a question whether you knew or had any
4 information that some members of the Skorpions also been deployed in
6 A. Well, first of all, I can't speak or read English, and I don't
7 know why you're showing me this. Could you please translate? Could you
8 tell me what the question was?
9 Q. Well, the question was whether you knew or had any information
10 that the Skorpions had also been deployed in Bosnia, or engaged in
12 A. Well, this is probably a reference to my service up until the
13 8th of May, 1992, and up until that period, no.
14 Q. Well, when did the operations in Bosnia start?
15 A. Well, we consider them to have begun in early May, 1992.
16 Q. Yes. So that's when the operations began?
17 A. Well, I had no information that the Skorpions had been deployed
18 in Bosnia
19 Q. But here the question is about some information. When did you
20 get some information about their engagement in Bosnia?
21 A. Well, I read about it in the Vreme Weekly while I was still
22 retired, and this was an article about the paramilitary unit.
23 Q. Do you know, and based on the information that you received from
24 the counter-intelligence group, do you know that among the members of
25 that unit, which had been disbanded in 1996, 20 to 30 members of that old
1 unit had been sent to Podujevo?
2 A. Well, there was no such information as to the new and old
3 membership of the unit.
4 Q. Do you know that an on-site investigation was conducted in
5 Podujevo immediately following the incident? In other words, as early as
6 the 30th of March and that this investigation was done by an
7 investigating judge of the district court?
8 A. Well, I can tell you what I learned subsequently. I can't tell
9 you anything about what I knew at the time. What I learned was that
10 those bodies had been there for three days on a pile in the yard because
11 allegedly the investigating judge wasn't able to come to the site because
12 of the roads. The situation on the roads. This is what I've learned
13 from -- after reading the documents from the proceedings, the court
15 Q. Do you know that an investigating -- investigation was conducted?
16 A. Well, yes, after three days.
17 Q. Do you know that a criminal complaint was submitted and that some
18 individuals were indicted?
19 A. I don't know that, but I know that the trace evidence was not
20 fixated on the spot. It wasn't established exactly who had opened fire,
21 who had killed them.
22 Q. Well, let me ask you this: Once a criminal complaint is
23 submitted and when an investigation is initiated, can the investigating
24 judge -- can any -- can the police have any influence on the further
1 A. Well, in some cases, yes, if they find or learn any new
3 Q. Thank you. And once the court determines that some individuals
4 should be remanded in custody, then that is the sole decision of the
6 A. Yes, that was the sole decision of the investigating judge.
7 Q. In that phase of the proceedings; correct?
8 I need to repeat my question because I believe that the -- that
9 your answer was not recorded fully.
10 My question was: When the police submits a criminal report and
11 once an investigation is initiated, am I correct that they can no longer
12 have any say in the further proceedings? Could you please answer.
13 A. I said that they could not influence the further proceedings.
14 However, if they found any new information in the course of their
15 operative work, then they could submit that information to the Prosecutor
16 or the investigating judge.
17 Q. Thank you. General, I would now like to move on to the meeting
18 held on the 17th of May, 1999.
19 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have
20 Exhibit D003-2495 on the screens. Paragraph 64. This should be page 16
21 in the B/C/S version.
22 Q. Would you please read paragraph 64, General.
23 A. Well, you keep asking me to read things and at one point I was
24 told that I wasn't just a puppet reading things, but okay let me read it.
25 It says here:
1 "The minister of Internal Affairs, Vlajko Stojiljkovic, was not
2 present. His absence was strange and was not explained. There were five
3 generals from the Army of Yugoslavia and not a single general from the
4 police in command of forces in Kosovo. Holding such a meeting was a
5 normal thing, but not everybody best versed in the situation on the
6 ground was there. Stevanovic, Lukic, and particularly Stojiljkovic
7 should have been there as well."
8 Q. Thank you, General. Is your statement and as you recollect the
9 events from the time, is it correctly relayed in this paragraph?
10 A. Well, I think, yes, more or less. Whether General Djordjevic was
11 mentioned, I don't know. You also have a statement that is also in
12 evidence here, notes that I took during this meeting, and that would be
13 the most accurate information.
14 Q. And thereto it says that General Djordjevic was not present;
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And all the information that you did receive regarding that, you
18 received from Rade Markovic?
19 A. I don't know which information you are referring to.
20 Q. Well, when you said about "what he had reported?"
21 A. Well, he wasn't speaking to me, he was just answering Milosevic's
23 Q. I apologise, I was just quoting what was mentioned in your notes.
24 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I would just now like to --
25 please bear with me a moment, can we pull up Exhibit P884.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Are these notes already an exhibit?
2 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's Exhibit P884. I've
3 already said that. I apologise, it would appear that my request was not
4 entered here. Could we please see Exhibit P884. But I see now that it
5 has been recorded.
6 JUDGE PARKER: My question is about the document that is on the
8 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] That was the 2006/2007 statement,
9 paragraph 64. This is the statement that the witness provided to the
11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Is it in evidence?
12 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] No, it was only on the
13 Defence 65 ter list to be used during the questioning of this witness.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. You are not tendering it. Thank you.
15 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Witness, I have a question for you relating to the very beginning
17 of your notes. You said that both you and Mr. Pavkovic submitted written
18 reports and that what you did in fact in the meeting was read them out.
19 Now, I would like to know whether you had ever seen your written
20 report after this briefing? And I'm referring to the proceedings before
21 this Tribunal, not anything else.
22 A. Well, do you mean the report from the meeting of the 17th of May?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you have occasion to be shown the report that was submitted
1 by Pavkovic on the 17th of May?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Let me ask you this now, since you had the report, the report was
4 written if I understood you correctly, you said that there was no need
5 for you to write the contents of this report; however, at the very
6 beginning here, I see in paragraph 1 General Pavkovic then submitted his
7 report and then colon and it says, There is no problem with the Petrusic
8 group. There is an error here.
9 Now, could you tell me what Pavkovic actually reported on when
10 you wrote this down in your notes?
11 A. Well, I don't know what I wrote down in my notes, I'm not sure.
12 I just para-phrased some of his overall -- some portions ever his overall
13 briefing. This is what I noted in my notebook, and he didn't know what
14 it was that I wrote down. What I wrote down was just the parts that I --
15 the portions that I considered interest -- of interest.
16 Q. I think you misunderstood me. I believe that you said that you
17 didn't want to make any notes on his report because the report was in
18 written form and there was no need for it; but in addition to that and in
19 spite of that, the first sentence of your notes here is that
20 General Pavkovic gave his report and then:
21 "There is no problem with the Petrusic ..." -- there is an error
22 here, it says the "Petronijevic group."
23 So could you tell us then, What is it that he said about this?
24 A. You mean what he said about the Petrusic group? Well, what he
25 said was that they were disarmed, that they were taken in custody, that
1 Petrusic and Orasanin were arrested, and that the entire group was
2 disbanded, and that currently there was an operative investigation
3 underway as to what they had committed, what acts they had committed.
4 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you just one more thing: Were the
5 proceedings against them conducted in the Pristina Corps or in Belgrade
6 A. No, it was done in Belgrade
7 The operatives from the RDB were supposed to take part in the
8 investigation because they insisted that these were French agents. And
9 when they were arrested, Rade Markovic was informed an operative came and
10 said that he would bring some material the next day and then for an
11 entire month after that there was no one from the RDB attending those
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please have page
15 K061-7039 we need the second page, second paragraph, in the English
17 Q. General --
18 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we just scroll this down a
19 bit, please.
20 Q. Could you please take a look at this and then further on up to
21 there you commented the proceedings.
22 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] But then if we can just get the
23 next page in the B/C/S version but just after a moment, once the witness
24 has been able to read this.
25 Could we now have the next page.
1 MR. STAMP: This is a record of his notes which flows from page
2 to page, and he can't even see a whole page here. Perhaps he could be
3 shown the binder that he has here with his notes, and I think it's
4 document 91 in the binder that he has. If it would be more practical for
5 him to look at the document that way.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
7 MR. STAMP: It's tab 91. Thank you, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Do you want to look at your -- the photocopy of
9 your notes that are there, General, rather than trying to follow them on
10 the screen?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there's no need for that, I
12 think I can still recollect what it was about the question.
13 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Well, what I wanted to ask you was to tell me and explain the
15 remarks here by Mr. Milosevic. So you commented the questions of the
16 Prosecution up to there and then we stopped there. You didn't comment
17 anything on Milosevic's words at that meeting, so now I would like to ask
18 you to tell us about it.
19 A. Well, after it was determined that the Petrusic group had been
20 resolved or dissolved, that Petrusic had been arrested, Milosevic said
21 that we should be careful lest someone else was infiltrated, the new
22 group that we would have to deal with. And in connection with that, he
23 demanded that additional security measures be taken on the borders with
24 Republika Srpska because we had information that there was a group -- the
25 Vukovi from the Drina
1 Wolves from the Drina
2 mention during my testimony there, because the questions -- there were no
3 questions about it.
4 And that was this: Both General Pavkovic and General Ojdanic,
5 and Vice-President Sainovic agreed with them, they all ask that a special
6 state commission be established in Belgrade which would go to Kosovo and
7 investigate the events mentioned and discussed in the meeting.
8 And what struck me, and I testified about this earlier, and once
9 we went out of the meeting I told my colleagues that this was really
10 unusual that a -- that this topic of creating a special committee for
11 Kosovo was completely obviated, and that's why we came to the meeting.
12 Following this, President Milosevic put the stress on the need
13 for us to meet regularly because apparently there was not proper or
14 sufficient communication and cooperation between the RDB and the military
15 services. Partly for that reason but especially because of what
16 General Pavkovic said and that was the refusal to create a
17 Joint Commission to investigate those 597 bodies where it was necessary
18 to establish in whose area of responsibility they had been found.
19 And then he also had an objection regarding a recent statement by
20 the spokesman. This was a TV appearance where the MUP claimed that these
21 were only small groups of individuals and that those groups had already
22 been dealt with. And in that sense, he remarked that one should be
23 careful lest NATO concluded that they must come to Kosovo to deal with
24 these groups. Well, in brief, this is what it was, I can tell you a bit
25 more but.
1 Q. Tell me that last paragraph in your report that Jugoslav
2 Petrusic, on the basis of the -- it says VK positions here was held in
3 custody for three days?
4 A. Well, that's precisely what I've been saying. I took him into
5 custody, him and Orasanin too, and I had the authority to do that
6 pursuant to the law on holding people into custody up to 72 hours in
7 emergency situations; however, in war this was extended to a period of 30
8 days. And because of that, I said that he was incarcerated for three
9 days or detained for three days. And I said that the next day on the
10 18th an operative of the state security would arrive, but he -- and he
11 did arrive but without any documents. And they thought that it was a
12 French agent so they had to bring him proof of that.
13 However, over the next month, which was how long the people were
14 held in detention, they never appeared again. And Rade Markovic -- we
15 couldn't contact Rade Markovic for that meeting, and I've already
16 explained all that.
17 Q. Yes, that is the part that I was interested in, but let me say
18 this: I've read a lot of your statements, but I don't know where - or
19 could you help me out here and say if I'm right or not - I don't remember
20 that you -- or -- I remember that you were dissatisfied because the state
21 security DB and Rade Markovic failed to inform you about the operative
22 work linked to that group.
23 A. Well, that's what I'm saying now as well. They had the
24 assertions about the French agent and the army. And we pulled the people
25 out because of the unlawful way in which they went to Kosovo. An
1 operative arrived and he said, I'll bring it in tomorrow. But he never
2 brought in any further documents, and that's what I'm saying now.
3 Q. Thank you, let's not waste time on that. It's not that relevant.
4 Let's move on. Immediately after that meeting with the president of the
5 Republic of Yugoslavia
6 Chief of Staff of the Supreme Command to tour the 3rd Army. And on the
7 1st of June, you went off with Colonel Gajic to carry out that
9 Tell me, now, please, before you -- was it standard practice,
10 before you went -- was it standard practice to tour the units in the
11 territory and so that there was supervision and control before you? Was
12 this standard practice before?
13 A. Well, it should have been standard practice, but I don't know of
14 anybody going -- any deputy or team going to inspect and tour the units.
15 But I do know that General Geza for the first of May was down there; he
16 was in Kosovo after learning of the Petrusic group to see where they
17 were, what the situation was, because there was no information coming in.
18 So General Geza as the chief of the sector and department was in
19 Kosovo on the 1st of May. But he didn't tour the operatives there.
20 Q. Thank you. But what I'm asking is this: Did the Supreme Command
21 staff send teams out in the field during the war to tour the units and
22 among others the 3rd Army and the Pristina Corps before you? Do you know
23 anything about that; was that the case or not?
24 A. Yes, that's right.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 A. I know that General Velickovic was there; he was the assistant to
2 the air force.
3 Q. Thank you. Now, did you know at that time, we are talking about
4 that time, that the practice was applied whereby the
5 Ministry of the Interior would send their people to tour people in Serbia
6 and people in Kosovo and Metohija, to pay visits to them?
7 A. I don't know about that, but I assume that they did something
8 similar, yes.
9 Q. Thank you. Now, you arrived upon the invitation of
10 General Pavkovic. You came to attend the meeting in the evening of the
11 1st of June with Colonel Stojanovic, as you told us; do you know in what
12 way General Djordjevic, as you say, arrived to attend that meeting? How
13 did he come to be there?
14 A. When I arrived, I already found the generals from MUP there.
15 They were already there before me.
16 Q. Thank you. Now, you said that General Obrad Stevanovic was also
17 there. Am I right in saying that both of them were assistants to the
18 minister of the interior at that time, that that's what they were?
19 A. Yes, from the documents that you showed me earlier on, I saw that
20 that was the case and I knew about it as well.
21 Q. Thank you. Now, did you know that General Djordjevic was head of
22 the public security sector and that during the war his seat was in
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. Thank you. I'd like to ask you something now with respect to
1 where you sat.
2 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] And for me to do that, may I have
3 D003-2495, paragraph 80, pulled up, please. That's for the B/C/S.
4 Q. General, I'm not going to ask you to read anything any more.
5 It's a long text. You can just agree with me or not. Just tell me
6 whether that's what it says. Don't worry. So I'll skip the part where
7 you said hello to the various individuals and who you said hello to.
8 A. With Lukic.
9 Q. Yes, yes. But that's not the portion that I want to refer to.
10 I'll just find the excerpt that I wish to read out. It says:
11 "We sat down to the table, the generals of MUP, apart from Lukic,
12 were at one end of the table with their backs facing the door. The
13 generals of the VJ were sitting on the opposite -- at the opposite end of
14 the table. They chatted a bit, but it was clear that they were waiting
15 for the arrival of two key men. When Sainovic and Zoran Andjelkovic
16 entered, everybody stood up. The small talk stopped, and the atmosphere
17 became more serious."
18 A. What's your question? I know all this. What's your question?
19 Q. "I gained the impression," -- it goes on to say -- "that
20 Andjelkovic was following him carefully. There was some joking with him
21 but not with Sainovic. Sainovic sat at the head of the table --"
22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic, do you have a question?
23 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I started reading too far up,
24 and I've just come to the portion that I would like to address, just to
25 give you the general context.
1 Q. As I was saying, "Sainovic sat at the head of the table, and
2 Andjelkovic sat to one side with the MUP generals. Lukic sat at the
3 other end opposite Sainovic."
4 Do you agree that that was the seating arrangement?
5 A. Well, you needn't have read it all out. I know where we all sat.
6 Q. Well, was that seating arrangements as I've just read it out?
7 A. Yes, but it doesn't say who sat next to whom, it says that Lukic
8 was on the opposite end across from the table; so the MUP generals here,
9 Sainovic was here, Lukic was here, and the army generals were sitting
10 this end.
11 Q. Thank you. And am I right, General, saying that the meeting just
12 lasted for 20 minutes?
13 A. Yes, roughly 20 minutes.
14 Q. Thank you. Now, I'm interested in learning something else,
15 General. As far as Colonel Stojanovic is concerned, I think you said
16 that for a time he told you that he had attended meetings of the
17 Joint Command in 1998, but that later on he ceased to attend those
18 meetings for the reasons that you mentioned.
19 So now may we take a look at paragraph 84 of your statement, the
20 statement that you gave to the Prosecutor.
21 A. When?
22 Q. We'll come to that in just a moment.
23 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Paragraph 84.
24 Q. General, now, as to the seating arrangements, you just indicated
25 where the people sat by gestures. Could you put it into words, please?
1 A. Just the way you read it out. I only said that had you asked me,
2 I would have told you the same. This means on the long end of the table
3 the opposite end there were the MUP generals with Andjelkovic who was the
4 first man next to Sainovic; and on the opposite side of the table, across
5 from them, were the army generals with Colonel Stojanovic. And General
6 Lukic was at the head of the table, if I can call it that. That is to
7 say, opposite to where Sainovic was sitting. They were sitting at two
8 ends of the table.
9 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 84 --
10 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Has that been pulled up?
11 Q. It says that Colonel Dimitrijevic told you that he received --
12 A. Do you mean Colonel Stojanovic?
13 Q. Yes, what did I say?
14 A. You said Dimitrijevic.
15 Q. Anyway, that he received indirect information and that he
16 informed Colonel Dimitrijevic?
17 A. You mean General Dimitrijevic, head of the administration?
18 Q. Yes, that is correct, thank you.
19 And now I have one more question, or rather two more questions.
20 Do you allow for the possibility that on the 7th of June, you saw
21 General Djordjevic in Pristina and not on the 1st as you told us during
22 your testimony?
23 A. No, on the 7th of June, none of the MUP generals or members of
24 the MUP did I see. I saw none of them. And after this meeting on the
25 1st of June, I didn't see anybody from the MUP again. I was with the
1 security organs throughout, so I saw no one from the MUP. And on the
2 7th of June we completed our tour and we entered our final -- we went for
3 a final briefing with the head of the Pristina Corps.
4 Q. I'd like to put to you part of Stojanovic's statement to show you
5 that. I don't know whether anybody has shown you his statement.
6 A. No. They haven't. But you can show me, you can present me with
7 it. Go ahead, I know what it's about.
8 Q. Well, if you know --
9 A. Well, I suppose he changed something just like other security
10 organs with whom certain people contacted later on. But ask me directly.
11 What I said is true and correct, and I stand it by it with my honour as
12 an officer. I state that I said -- told you the truth. Now, what
13 Stojanovic said later, I really don't know. But I heard from people who
14 were in contact with him that he denied ever -- that General Djordjevic
15 ever attended the meeting. Was that your question?
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. So my answer is that I heard from other people that he changed
18 his statement. That's what I have to say. I told the truth, and I stand
19 by that. Now, what Stojanovic was saying, you can bring him in and I can
20 have -- I can confront him.
21 Q. No, there's no confrontation here. Anyway, General, during your
22 testimony, during the Examination in Chief by the Prosecutor, I think you
23 said that you gave your statement to the Prosecution as a suspect in 2000
24 and something. Could you remind me of the date, of the year?
25 A. I don't know what my status is now, whether I'm a suspect or not.
1 Nobody told me anything.
2 Q. Thank you. My next question is: Did you ever receive a decision
3 by the Prosecutor saying that you were no longer a suspect?
4 A. No. And it's not a problem for me. I can testify as a suspect,
5 as an accused, and as a free man, because there's only one truth and it
6 is what I'm telling you. I'm telling you the truth.
7 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, General, for answering
8 my questions and for all your patience and time.
9 And thank you, Your Honours, for your patience as well.
10 That completes my examination.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
12 Mr. Stamp, do you re-examine?
13 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour, thank you very much.
14 Re-examination by Mr. Stamp:
15 Q. General, I have a few questions for you, sir, it's coming to an
16 end, but I'm going to ask you to be patient with me as well.
17 I think you said at one stage that you had heard or read of
18 information in respect to paramilitaries and the Skorpions before 1999.
19 I'd like to ask you, did your investigations in May 1999 indicate whether
20 or not there were security checks or adequate security checks of the
21 members who joined the Skorpions and who were sent to Podujevo in
22 March 1999?
23 A. During my testimony I said that the security organs in
24 Novi Sad
25 security checks for the persons who were in the Skorpions individually.
1 Whether they gave a general assessment as to whether they had took part
2 in various theatres of operation in 1991, 1992, and later on in Bosnia,
3 it was just an overall estimate. But no individual security checks were
4 carried out, and the conclusion was that there were certain individuals
5 who had a criminal past. And that was the information on the
6 12th of May, 1999.
7 Q. I'd like to go back to something that was read to you from your
8 statement and your answer and ask you if you could elaborate a little bit
9 on your answer. And I'm going to page 45 of the transcript. And
10 paragraph 4 of your statement was read, and it's -- passage is not very
11 long, so I'll just read it again:
12 "The Minister of Internal Affairs Vlajko Stojiljkovic was not
13 present. His absence was strange and was not explained. There were five
14 generals from the army and not a single general for the police, of the
15 police of the command of forces in Kosovo. Holding such a meeting was a
16 normal thing but not everybody was versed in the situation on the ground
17 was there. Stevanovic, Lukic, and particularly Stojiljkovic should have
18 been there as well."
19 And you were asked if that correctly related or relayed what is
20 in the paragraph. And your answer was:
21 "Well, I think, yes, more or less. Whether General Djordjevic
22 was mentioned, I don't know."
23 Could you explain what your answer is? You said:
24 "... yes, more or less. Whether General Djordjevic was
25 mentioned, I don't know."
1 A. First of all, well, your quotation was a rather long one. I
2 think you mentioned that the meeting that was being held in Kosovo, well,
3 it wasn't in Kosovo, it was in Belgrade
4 MR. STAMP: I'm sorry, could we just go to paragraph 64 of
5 D003-2495 so he could look at it.
6 Q. I think it's there in front of you. And that was a meeting in
8 "Holding such a meeting was a normal thing to do but not
9 everybody best versed in the situation on the ground was there.
10 Stevanovic, Lukic, and particularly Stojiljkovic should have been
11 there ..."
12 That is what it said in statement. When you were asked about
13 that statement, your answer was, this statement correctly relayed your
14 understanding more or less, and then you went on to say whether
15 General Djordjevic was mentioned, "I don't know." That's what I wanted
16 you to explain, if you can.
17 A. So that means in the enumeration of all those people who were
18 supposed to be present, since the situation in Kosovo was being
19 discussed, if I failed to mention General Djordjevic, he should have been
20 there too because he had -- he was the number 2 man in MUP.
21 So just so that it wouldn't appear that Djordjevic should not
22 have been there but the other two generals should have been. He should
23 have been there too, and he -- even if I failed or omitted to mention
24 him. So all three generals should have been there at the meeting, were
25 supposed to be there at the meeting. And the minister. Plus the
1 minister. Oh, and also as the Defence -- if the Defence says that he
2 wasn't at his work and that his seat was in Belgrade, I see no reason for
3 him not being at the meeting.
4 Q. Thank you. If we could move on. In respect to Stojanovic, you
5 said when you were asked about his testimony that the date of the
6 Joint Command meeting in Pristina was the 7th, and whether or not
7 Djordjevic was there, you said that he "changed something, just like
8 other security organs when certain persons contacted him."
9 And if you can explain what that means, that he changed "like
10 other security organs" and also what you mean when you say "when concern
11 persons contacted him."
12 And if you need to go into private session, we could ask leave of
13 the Court.
14 A. Let me first put you right. It's not the meeting of the 7th --
15 of the Joint Command of the 7th of June. It's the meeting of the
16 1st of June. You mentioned the 7th of June, I believe.
17 Q. Yes, I think it was being suggested that the meeting might have
18 been the 7th. I think you were asked whether or not you allow that it
19 was possible that it was the 7th of June, and --
20 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
21 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I have to object. My learned
22 friend Mr. Stamp is wrongly para-phrasing. I wasn't speaking of the
23 Joint Command meeting, of a Joint Command meeting, but I said that the
24 general, the witness, might have met General Djordjevic on the
25 7th of June without the mention of any meeting.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
2 MR. STAMP: Very well.
3 Q. You said in respect of the questions you were asked about
4 Stojanovic's evidence, that Stojanovic changed something just like other
5 security organs when certain people contacted him. Can you elaborate, if
6 you can, and as I indicated we could ask, if you need to, the Court the
7 leave to go into private session.
8 A. Yes, private session would be good.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
10 [Private session]
11 Page 5936 redacted. Private session.
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
7 MR. STAMP:
19 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
20 MR. STAMP: And I assure you, General, that that will be redacted
21 from the public record. My apologies.
22 [Private session]
16 [Open session]
17 MR. STAMP:
18 Q. There are one or two items that I would just like to clarify.
19 You said in answer --
20 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
21 MR. STAMP: I am sorry.
22 Q. In answer to a couple of questions by learned counsel, you said
23 that where you mentioned Vlatkovic, a member of the SPS, you were talking
24 about Matkovic, and is that Dusan Matkovic who was a business executive
25 you were speaking of?
1 A. Mr. Matkovic, I don't know whether he was an entrepreneur or came
2 from the area of business. He was director of Sartid and a minister in
3 the government. I mentioned Vlatkovic, but that was my mistake. I
4 didn't seem to be able to recall that it was actually Mr. Matkovic
5 throughout that answer.
6 Q. Thank you. So just to be absolutely clear. When you said
7 earlier that Vlatkovic from the SPS was also a member of the
8 Joint Command, according to what Stojanovic told you, you meant that
9 Matkovic, Dusan Matkovic from the SPS, was also a member of the
10 Joint Command according to what Stojanovic told you; is that correct?
11 A. No, Stojanovic didn't tell me anything. Oh, yes, sorry, you mean
12 the discussion from 1998? Yes, you are right. It all had to do with
14 Q. Thank you. There was another item. You were asked a couple of
15 questions about --
16 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
17 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I don't have an objection. I only
18 have a correction for the transcript. Line where it says "member of the
19 SPS command" it should be the "Joint Command." Now it's fine, thank you.
20 MR. STAMP:
21 Q. During yesterday's questioning, and it was at 5841, line 25, of
22 the transcript, you were asked some questions about the
23 Federal Ministry of Defence and an organisation that was subordinate to
24 them. And there might be some confusion from the way the questions were
25 asked, whether or not you are saying that the military territorial
1 department, the Pristina military territorial department was completely
2 independent. So I want to ask you, Was the Pristina military territorial
3 department subordinate to the 3rd Army or the Pristina Corps, or was it a
4 complete independent organisation?
5 A. I'm not clear about what you are asking me. First of all, you
6 are now discussing the Ministry of Defence, and there may be some
7 confusion about the term. Perhaps Defence could assist.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
9 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't want to
10 intercede, but I believe Mr. Stamp para-phrased his words the way the
11 witness failed to understand. It would be best to show him that part of
12 the transcript and what his response was, although I know what it was,
13 but that may be the best way to clarify it.
14 The way Mr. Stamp put it and the way we heard it in the B/C/S may
15 have been unclear to the witness.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. You are going to have to make more
17 clear what it is --
18 MR. STAMP: Yes, yes.
19 JUDGE PARKER: -- that you are raising, Mr. Stamp.
20 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour, I'm trying to just find the
21 transcript reference.
22 Q. You were shown a document and you were asked about the addressees
23 of the document, and one addressee at number 5 on the document was the
24 military district of Pristina, and then you were asked this question and
25 this is at 5841 from line 24:
1 "Q. Yesterday we didn't touch upon the topic of organisation of
2 the Federal Ministry of Defence in the territory of the FRY. How did
3 they function territorially speaking? Were they completely independent,
4 in an independent formation answerable only to the Secretariat for
5 National Defence, or did they have any links to the army? I mean
6 specifically the civil protection and civil defence."
7 And you said, They were fully under the Ministry of Defence.
8 On my second reading of this I think it is even clearer, but I
9 just want to ask you firstly: The military district of Pristina, was
10 that subordinate to the 3rd Army, or not?
11 A. I'm not sure about the transcript. It seems that some terms may
12 have been mixed up. The military district was subordinated to the
13 3rd Army Command in the military district of Nis and Pristina; they were
14 army elements. There was also some discussion about whether
15 Ministry of Defence had its own elements subordinated directly to it,
16 such as simply protection, and then I said, Yes.
17 Q. So your answer --
18 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.
19 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] In my question there was no
20 mention of any military districts.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic, I think you'll have to leave
22 Mr. Stamp to put his questions in re-examination. Thank you.
23 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honours.
24 Q. So you were saying just civil protection and civil defence were
25 within the ambit of the Ministry of Defence?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you know whether or not the Ministry -- sorry. Do you know
3 whether or not, in the course of combat activities, the VJ could deploy
4 civil defence or civil protection units?
5 A. The army could not deploy civil defence and civilian protection
6 units. It was under the competence of the Ministry of Defence. As to
7 whether they could use any of their facilities, well, yes, if that was
8 not in contravention to the international laws of war. One cannot use
9 schools, health institutions, and other civilian facilities for military
11 Q. Very well.
12 A. Hence, the Ministry of Defence deals with the use of such
13 facilities, but the army cannot make use of those facilities which cannot
14 be used for military purposes under international law.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, I propose now to move to another topic.
17 I'm now wondering if this would be a convenient moment.
18 JUDGE PARKER: You would like the break now?
19 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE PARKER: We will have the second break now. We resume at
22 [The witness stands down]
23 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 1.03 p.m.
25 [The witness takes the stand]
1 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Stamp.
2 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honours.
3 Q. You said, General, that - and here I'm speaking at 5833 of the
4 transcript yesterday - that on the 8th of June when you returned from
5 tour in Kosovo, you wrote the information you had about the crimes and
6 what was going on and this was handed over to the chief of administration
7 Geza Farkas, and he handed that over to the Chief of the General Staff,
8 and he handed it in turn to Slobodan Milosevic.
9 Firstly, the crimes that you wrote down, were these VJ crimes, or
10 crimes committed by members of the VJ; crimes committed by members of the
11 MUP; or both? All the crimes you heard about.
12 A. No, it only has to do with the crimes committed by VJ members.
13 Q. And when you said you wrote it down on a piece of paper, what do
14 you mean?
15 A. I wrote a report --
16 Q. I see.
17 A. -- following our visit. And we also drew up a table in terms of
18 types of crime; place, and location of crime; as well as the names of the
19 perpetrators, in case we knew who the perpetrators were, otherwise they
20 were unidentified. I remember there were 42 items in total in that table
21 with over 100 persons included.
22 Q. What happened to that report, do you know?
23 A. I don't. I don't know where it ended up or where it could be
24 found. I know there were attempts at finding it, but I don't think it
25 was. Although, I see no reason for anyone to hide it. I think most of
1 the cases were dealt with by the Prosecutor's Office of the army in any
3 After we returned from Kosovo and after submitting the report,
4 General Ojdanic summoned the representatives of legal organs, i.e., the
5 Court's and Prosecutor's Offices, and ordered them to deal with those
6 cases specifically. I know there was an advisory or consultancy meeting
7 of sorts with the representatives of those organs.
8 Q. Yes, I see. But anyway, in respect to this report, you said that
9 that you know there were attempts to finding it. And by that do you mean
10 that at some point in time it disappeared?
11 A. I don't know. I can't say it disappeared. It wasn't found. I
12 inquired with the chief of the security administration. It would have
13 been natural to have a copy kept at the administration, a true copy or an
14 original; but it turned out that nothing was left in the administration.
15 As for where it could be found subsequently, I don't know.
16 Q. If we could move on to something else.
17 You said at -- you said yesterday, and this is, Your Honours,
18 page 5848 of the transcript -- sorry, 5849, that you "... know about the
19 order whereby the command of the 3rd Army ordered for weapons to be
20 distributed only to Serbs within the ranks."
21 Having regard to your testimony there, I'd like to show you a
23 MR. STAMP: Can we have a look at document with
24 65 ter number 01415.
25 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have to react. I
1 would kindly ask Mr. Stamp to show us that part of the transcript rather
2 than para-phrasing it, and I'm pretty positive that the witness said that
3 while he was going through the documents given to him by the OTP that it
4 is there that he saw it. If we leave this question and the answer that
5 is about to come, it will appear that he knew of that while touring the
6 3rd Army.
7 JUDGE PARKER: You were asked, Mr. Stamp, to read the passage.
8 MR. STAMP: And I --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
10 MR. STAMP: Sorry. And I will, Your Honour, if the Court would
11 prefer if I did. But I'll just have to find it. 5849. Thank you.
12 From -- shall we go from line 1:
13 "May I remind you ..." -- this is the general's answer --
14 "... may I remind you that I know about the order whereby the command of
15 the 3rd Army ordered for weapons to be distributed only to Serbs within
16 the ranks, so I cannot deny that there had been some obstruction dating
17 from 1991, 1992, in terms of including Albanians into the rank of
18 conscripts and the others."
19 There might be an issue here about the date, Your Honours, but
20 the General was not referring to where he saw the order, he just said
21 that he knows about the order, and I just want to show him the order and
22 ask him if this is one such order.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
24 MR. STAMP:
25 Q. You see the order in front of you? Before we go back to the --
1 before we look more carefully at the first page, I see here it is from
2 the Pristina Corps Command dated the 26th of June, 1998.
3 MR. STAMP: And if we could look briefly at the stamp and
4 insignia block at the end or at the second page of the document. In
5 B/C/S. You only need to move the B/C/S one.
6 Q. Is this a document from General Pavkovic when he was the
7 commander of the Pristina Corps?
8 A. What is your question?
9 Q. Can you say whether or not this is a document of General Pavkovic
10 at the time when he was commander of the Pristina Corps?
11 A. Yes, I can see that. I saw these documents for the first time
12 when given by the Prosecution. Before that, I had no knowledge of it
13 since I was retired. I only wanted to use it as an example in the course
14 of my answer on the formation of the separate military territorial
15 detachment of Pristina which was uniform in terms of ethnic makeup. This
16 was only by way of an illustration. I think this was an exhibit in some
17 of the previous cases?
18 MR. STAMP: Could we return to the first page and the second
19 paragraph in section 3.
20 Q. I see it says here, Call up military conscripts in small groups
21 to the army barracks or organised distribution and issue of weapons in
22 Serbian or Montenegrin villages.
23 So having regard to that, General, I take it from your previous
24 answer that this is one such document that you are speaking about by way
25 of illustration?
1 A. Yes, but I don't see any particular link to the other point or
2 item 2. What attracts one's attention is probably the fact that weapons
3 are being distributed to the reserve force. First all, I'd like to say
4 this was no exception in the 90s or the 80s. To be specific, some units
5 in border areas, whether it was Slovenia
6 they were deemed the highest level of urgency or readiness units. They
7 were attached, or rather, distributed weapons but only to the reserve
8 forces in border areas. This was 1998 in June.
9 During that time in Kosovo, the terrorist forces were quite
10 active and fully developed. Because of that situation, since there were
11 cases of kidnappings, murders, and attacks, the decision was made to have
12 that reserve force issued with weapons.
13 Q. And the indication here was to issue the weapons in Serbian and
14 Montenegrin villages. Very well. Thanks for your answer.
15 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, could I tender this document and ask
16 that it be received in evidence.
17 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P00901.
19 MR. STAMP:
20 Q. And you were shown, General - and we are moving on, and I try to
21 move quickly. You were shown, General, a document, D104 in respect to
22 the Joint Command.
23 MR. STAMP: But before we come to that, could we look at
24 65 ter 00939. This is a -- this is the minutes of the collegium of the
25 21st of January. You were shown quite a few of those -- minutes of the
1 collegium minutes meetings.
2 Could we move to page 10, paragraph 2, of these minutes. This is
3 page -- sorry page 11 English, bottom of page 11 English, which is the
4 bottom of page 9 in the B/C/S.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.
6 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this document was not
7 on the notification list of the Prosecutor. It was only put on the list
8 at 10.00 a.m.
9 propose that all documents of the same format be accepted; but as regards
10 any military documents of that nature, it seems he was not willing to do
11 so. We are four days into this witness's testimony, and it is now --
12 only now being disclosed. I just wanted to have this on the record.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Are you saying you had no prior notice of the
14 existence of this document, or that it wasn't on a list of documents to
15 be used with this witness; which?
16 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I think it was on the 65 ter list,
17 but it was not on the list of documents to be used with this witness.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Mr. Stamp.
19 MR. STAMP: That's correct, Your Honours. It was not on the
20 lists of documents to be used. It was served on the Defence last week.
21 But it arose -- the issues in respect to the collegium minutes and the
22 information given to General Ojdanic in those minutes arose yesterday,
23 and since the witness had discussed these collegium minutes, the
24 Prosecution submits that if there is another minute that he could comment
25 on, we should allow him the opportunity. I agree it was not on the
1 notification, but it was in respect to something that arose yesterday.
2 I should add that there are many documents that the Defence has
3 used in the course of their cross-examination that was not on the
4 notification that they noticed us about this morning, yesterday morn --
5 JUDGE PARKER: Two bads don't make a good, Mr. Stamp. We'll deal
6 with each when there's an objection.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, carry on, Mr. Stamp.
9 MR. STAMP: Thank you. Your Honours.
10 Q. I just want you to have a look at what General Djordjevic --
11 withdrawn, I'm so sorry. General Ojdanic is saying here. He is
12 discussing Racak and he said:
13 "If the forces have to be used, nobody is denying the right to
14 those who have the right to order it, but that means that this joint
15 staff, Joint Command, or whatever decided that operation in the Racak
16 village could not be carried out without the assistance of the
17 Yugoslav Army..."
18 The question is, Were you aware in 1999 that General Ojdanic and
19 the staff of the Supreme Command knew that the Joint Command ordered the
20 Racak operation?
21 A. No, I did not know.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MR. STAMP: In which case we could move on, but before we move
24 on, Your Honours, could I seek to tender this document. It's 0939.
25 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P00902.
2 MR. STAMP:
3 Q. You were shown -- and again I'm moving on, General, I know time
4 is going. You were shown a significant number of documents in relation
5 to war plan and the ground plan. I don't intend to show you all of them,
6 just one, and that is D179. And I'm going to show you a couple of other
7 documents that you were shown from the Joint Command, and ask you
9 But before I show you the documents, probably I should ask you
10 the question so you can focus on what is required of you while you are
11 looking at the documents. The question relates to something you said
12 that the -- in combat, the PJP units and the manoeuvred detachment units
13 were re-subordinated to the VJ.
14 And I'd like you to explain what you mean by resubordination in
15 the context of a document that I show you and whether or not this meant
16 that on the ground, the MUP forces were commanded by VJ forces.
17 MR. STAMP: So if we could first have a look at D179, and if you
18 could go to page 8 in the English, page 5 in the B/C/S. Item 3.1.
19 Q. This is one the directives for war planning that you discussed
20 with Mr. Djurdjic. And it refers to the task of the 3rd Army in times of
22 A. Yes, I've read this item 3.1. What is your question?
23 Q. Just the particular point I want to refer to is:
24 "At the time close all the axes of introduction of DT S from the
25 republic of Albania
1 terrorist forces and ensure viability of roads for introduction of forces
2 from deep within the territory and in coordinated action ..." -- and I
3 stress that now -- "... in coordinated action with the MUP forces of the
4 Republic of Serbia
5 coordinated action with NATO forces."
6 If we could move to another document you were shown, that is
8 A. What is your question? I don't know if you have a question in
9 relation to this.
10 Q. I do. I think I asked at the beginning, the question is: Having
11 regard to these documents and the passages I'm showing you, could you
12 explain what you mean by resubordination? When you say that the MUP
13 forces were resubordinated to the VJ forces on the ground, and can you
14 explain what is meant in these VJ command orders when they refer to
15 coordinated action between the MUP and the VJ? Do you understand what
16 I'm asking? Or may I explain what I'm asking.
17 You said, in answer to my friend, that the MUP forces on the
18 ground were resubordinated to the VJ forces in combat. These VJ
19 documents I'm showing you speak of coordinated action. Having seen these
20 documents, can you explain to us what you mean by resubordination?
21 I'm just going to show you another document, before you answer.
22 MR. STAMP: And that is D104, which is a Joint Command order. If
23 we go to the second page in English, that's item 2. If you scroll
24 down --
25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic, we are very tight pressed for time.
1 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'll be very brief.
2 Could we please make a reference of the dates of the documents? Could
3 you just point out the date to the witness. That's all I'm asking.
4 MR. STAMP: The Joint Command combat order before us, that's D104
5 is dated the 22nd of March, 1999. And the GROM plan, D179, is dated the
6 16th of January, 1999.
7 If you scroll down to the bottom in B/C/S and the English.
8 Q. You see there the "... task of the Pristina Corps in coordination
9 with the Republic of Serbia MUP is to seal off, route, and destroy the
11 Now, could you, having regard to those documents and your
12 previous evidence, explain what do you mean by resubordination of these
13 MUP forces?
14 A. Well, two terms are in use here. One is in coordination with
15 units. When that is used, "in coordination," that means that if there is
16 a military order, an order issued to a military unit, they have to be
17 aware that they are not the sole actors in this operation. If there
18 is -- if the goal is the same and that is to route the sabotage and
19 terrorist units, then there is also the participation of MUP units in
20 that operation. In other words, that it's not the army alone that is
21 taking action in this operation, but that the MUP forces are also taking
22 part in it.
23 So I just is have to make it clear here. This really means that
24 they have to coordinate their action which would mean that the army has
25 their own target which is their sole target, and they act separately
1 here; whereas the MUP has its own target which is again separate, and
2 they act on it separately, but the time-frame is the same, they do it in
4 As for resubordination, that means that if the command issues an
5 order, the task that is ordered, and only for the purposes of that
6 particular task, a MUP unit would be also within its complement. So that
7 the orders that are issued to their primary subordinated units would also
8 be issued to the MUP unit.
9 Whereas, in an area responsibility of a military unit, in other
10 words, not the entire territory of Kosovo, but only in the area of
11 responsibility or the area of combat, which would be clearly defined by
12 mentioning the borders, the left border and right border of this area of
13 operation, so that if there is a MUP unit also taking part in an
14 operation in this area of operation, that would mean that there would
15 only be one place where the command is issued. There couldn't be two
16 different places from where commands are issued. And in this case and
17 under the law it would be the army alone that issues such orders.
18 Q. Thank you. And does that mean that the MUP units that are
19 involved in accomplishing their separate tasks would be commanded on the
20 ground by VJ officers?
21 A. Again, you are using a term that I cannot precisely answer to.
22 You say if they are conducting a separate operation. I clearly
23 explained --
24 Q. Go ahead.
25 THE INTERPRETER: A separate task. Interpreter's correction.
1 MR. STAMP:
2 Q. You indicated that "in coordination with" would mean that all the
3 parties should be aware that both of them, both the VJ and the units --
4 and the MUP units, were participating in the operation and that it was
5 not the army alone. Please, one moment.
6 And you went on to say, this would mean that the army had their
7 own target which is their sole target and they act separately here,
8 whereas the MUP has its own target which is again separate and they act
9 on it separately.
10 All I want to know is, When the MUP is acting on its target
11 separately, as you put it, is the MUP unit commanded by a VJ officer?
12 A. No, and again I have to clarify, if the MUP is operating outside
13 of the area where -- area of operation of the army, they act
14 independently. And then it is probable that in their command, their
15 order, they will be instructed to do in coordination with the army so and
16 so. But if they are ordered to act in coordination, then -- in
17 resubordination, then they would have to be subordinated to the army.
18 And it's clear that they always have a common task which is to
19 route the forces, whatever, in Drenica, and then next it says they -- it
20 is their task to provide support to the MUP and so on. But the command,
21 the order is issued by the military commander and it issues the task to
22 the MUP, whereas the MUP will elaborate or develop its own very specific
23 goals, but they will always say "in support of the army."
24 And that's why in all the orders that I was shown, you would
25 always also have specified what the tasks of the MUP units are as well as
1 the tasks of the army, with the understanding that the MUP would have to
2 develop their own plan of operation but in keeping with the order issued
3 from the military command.
4 Q. Thank you. You were shown a significant amount of documents -
5 and I'm moving on here - dated April and May 1999 in respect to the
6 procedures for the induction of volunteers. Some of them referred to
7 proper procedures for prisoners and prisoners of war, and to respect the
8 Geneva Convention. And I recall in your evidence - and it's at page
9 5849 - you said that you found one document strange because you were
10 wondering why at such a late stage in the war orders of this nature were
11 being given.
12 Well, in respect to these orders that I just mentioned that you
13 were shown, the orders about respecting civilians and the
14 Geneva Convention which were issued in April and May, do you know whether
15 or not by April and May there was an international outcry re crimes in
16 Kosovo or alleged crimes in Kosovo that were committed against
17 Kosovar Albanians.
18 A. Well, you've made this sound a bit more complicated. When you
19 said in the late stages that I found it strange that some documents, some
20 type of document is prepared and that I said that I was suspicious of
21 such documents, and then you mentioned volunteers and the convention and
22 then the international outcry. Now, let me be clear, when I mentioned
23 this document and I saw that something was written in the late stages of
24 the war and that I found that a bit unusual, that related to the
25 establishment of the military and territorial detachment, the order
1 issued to the military district of Pristina to establish a new military
2 territorial detachment that was composed exclusively of Albanians. And I
3 said this was a bit strange. That is what I was referring to. And that
4 had nothing to do with the outcry that came later on regarding the crimes
5 committed. But there were crimes committed on the other side as well and
6 there was no outcry regarding them, but to be clear, that is what I was
7 referring to. Whereas, you sort of implied something that I did not
9 But I also said that when I was put back in active service on the
10 27th of April; when I showed up, I received a booklet citing the various
11 articles of the Geneva Convention and the treatment of prisoners and so
12 on and so forth. In other words, I received that as well because -- and
13 this, these regulations were distributed to every participant at the
14 lowest level of the army.
15 Q. Sorry if I made an implication that -- or implied something that
16 you did not mean and thanks for the correction.
17 But you are aware, though, that by April there was an
18 international outcry about alleged crimes, let's forget about who the
19 victims were, but alleged crimes in Kosovo?
20 A. I am afraid I might take up too much of your time. There was a
21 journalist, I think his name was Filipovic, who spoke to some
22 representatives of the foreign media and said that children were being
23 killed in Kosovo from an air-gun -- from aeroplanes and that little
24 children were killed by being shot at.
25 This is one case. But I also explained where when he was
1 justifying what he had reported in the papers, he said that he had heard
2 about this in cafes, in conversations with people, but that he didn't
3 really have firsthand information to that effect. This would have been
4 in April or so. But he was -- this was the initial actually report where
5 it was reported that a child two years old was killed by an anti-aircraft
6 shell. But that there was shelling, I do not doubt that, and I'm not
7 contesting that, but I can't say when it started.
8 Q. But just going back to the question, apart from Filipovic, which
9 I understand is a from Belgrade
10 in respect to alleged crimes in Kosovo from even in March of 1999? Can
11 you recall that or not?
12 A. I don't have any recollection of that. I know that there was
13 general condemnation. Everything that was being done was condemned and
14 there was an outcry, but as for the aggression that was underway, and the
15 civilian casualties, nobody really paid heed to that. For instance, that
16 the maternity ward in Belgrade
17 killed in the neighbourhood of the civilian hospital in Dedinje, and a
18 host of other incidents of that sort.
19 MR. STAMP: Very well, thank you very much, General, thanks for
20 coming and spending all this time here.
21 Your Honours, I have nothing further in re-examination, may it
22 please you.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE PARKER: There was one exhibit, Mr. Djurdjic, shown to this
1 witness that was not on the list of which you had notice. Mr. Stamp in
2 re-examination showed one document. Do you want to ask anything further
3 about that document?
4 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, and I will have a
5 comment tomorrow. I don't want to waste your time today.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE PARKER: General, you'll be, I'm sure, pleased to know that
9 that concludes the questioning for you. They have been four long days.
10 The Chamber would like to thank you for your attendance here in The Hague
11 and the assistance that you have been able to give to us and for the
12 clarity which with you've dealt with the questions of counsel.
13 You may now, of course, return to your normal activities, and the
14 court officer will show you out.
15 [The witness withdrew]
16 JUDGE PARKER: So that it does not slip our minds, we marked for
17 identification a document as P888, in particular because it was indicated
18 by Mr. Djurdjic that he proposed to cross-examine in respect of its
19 reliability or authenticity. Having now heard the evidence, so far as
20 the witness has been able to deal with that document particularly, and
21 having paid attention to the cross-examination, the Chamber is of the
22 view that that document should now be admitted as an exhibit rather than
23 marked, making it clear that that does not mean that the document is
24 necessarily and forever now deemed reliable or authentic. And it can be
25 subject to whatever other evidence and submission is thought appropriate
1 to advanced about the document.
2 We need to adjourn now. Is there any other particular procedural
3 matter before we do?
4 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honours, at the beginning of the
5 proceedings -- the examination of this witness, as a matter of fact
6 shortly before he was brought in to the will of the Court, we indicated
7 that many of the documents were pretty much similar to some documents
8 that he had been shown and he was able to just identify them. And we'd
9 have discussions with the Defence and the Defence graciously agreed to
10 have discussions. And we have agreed upon most of those documents, I
11 think all but three. And we were, if time had permitted, proceeding to
12 read them into the record. I don't know if that could be done tomorrow.
13 JUDGE PARKER: I don't believe we need to spend time reading them
14 into the record. If a list can be given to the court officer, a minute
15 will issue which will identify the exhibit numbers that are allocated to
16 the documents which will be received by consent.
17 MR. STAMP: Very well, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE PARKER: If any of those documents needs to be admitted
19 under seal, that should be specifically indicated on the list --
20 MR. STAMP: Indeed.
21 JUDGE PARKER: -- so that there's no mistake. And the list will
22 contain those documents which are mutually agreed by counsel, and is that
23 a combined list of Prosecution and Defence documents?
24 MR. STAMP: I -- just the Prosecution documents. I think all the
25 Defence documents that we had agreed to were tendered through the
1 witness. We had agreed to many of the Defence documents that they were
2 admissible, but I think counsel did tender them.
3 JUDGE PARKER: We will see what appears on the list tomorrow
4 morning. It's marvellous what an overnight does. We'll adjourn.
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.
6 to be reconvened on Friday, the 12th day of June,
7 2009, at 9.00 a.m.