1 Monday, 15 June 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 12.07 p.m.
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 JUDGE PARKER: Hello, Mr. Krasniqi.
7 THE WITNESS: [Microphone not activated]
8 JUDGE PARKER: Please sit down.
9 I just remind you that the affirmation you made to tell the truth
10 still applies, and Ms. D'Ascoli is still asking you some questions.
11 MS. D'ASCOLI: Thank you, Your Honours.
12 Could the usher please verify that Mr. Krasniqi has the
13 headphones properly because I see from here that they're not properly
14 placed. Okay. Thank you.
15 WITNESS: BEQIR KRASNIQI [Resumed]
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 Examination by Ms. D'Ascoli: [Continued]
18 Q. Good morning, Mr. Krasniqi.
19 A. [No interpretation]
20 Q. I'm not receiving translation.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Continue, please, Ms. D'Ascoli, and we'll --
22 THE INTERPRETER: I can't hear very well, the witness said.
23 MS. D'ASCOLI: Okay. Now I can hear.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
25 Q. Good morning, Mr. Krasniqi. Can you hear me well now?
1 A. Good day.
2 Q. Can you hear me well?
3 A. Yes, now I can hear you.
4 Q. Okay. Good. Mr. Krasniqi, I only have some questions left for
5 you today. Mr. Krasniqi, at pages 3 to 5 of your statement of 2000 you
6 describe how the Serb forces, policemen, separated the women and children
7 from men and then brought the men away, started mistreating them, asking
8 money, maltreating them. Sir, were you amongst those men?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And at page 5 of the same statement you say that Serb forces were
11 beating and mutilating men. Is this something you saw with your eyes?
12 A. Yes, I saw it with my own eyes, and I heard with my own ears
14 Q. And can you please tell us what you saw.
15 A. Yes, I can.
16 Q. Please continue.
17 A. When they separated us from the families and they told them to go
18 to Albania, they separated the men from the women and said, Sit down,
19 kneel down, like you do in the mosque and pull out everything you have in
20 your pockets.
21 Q. And in your statement you also speak about these Serb forces,
22 these policemen, who were mutilating and beating the men who were with
24 A. Yes, that's correct, they beat them. The younger ones they did
1 Q. Okay. And, sir, did you also witness and see with your eyes the
2 execution by those forces of the first group of men, the one that
3 preceded you and that you describe at page 5 of your statement?
4 A. Yes, I saw it with my own eyes when they killed the first group.
5 Q. And who were these forces that you saw firing and killing those
7 A. The Serb police, of course.
8 Q. Okay. Mr. Krasniqi, at page 4 of your statement you also speak
9 about a Serb who had a radio handset and who was speaking into this
10 handset. And do you remember you said --
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 Q. You said you heard the word "execution" mentioned on the radio.
13 Can you tell me how this Serbian man was dressed, whether he had a
14 uniform or whether he was in civilian clothes?
15 A. No, no, he was not dressed in civilian clothes. No one was
16 dressed in civilian clothes. They were policemen.
17 Q. Did he have a uniform?
18 A. Yes, they were dressed in uniforms. There were no person dressed
19 in civilian clothes.
20 Q. Could you maybe describe the uniform?
21 A. It's hard for me to describe it, but maybe if I see it I can
22 probably tell you.
23 Q. Okay. Do you remember the colour, for example?
24 A. Yes. If I see it, yes, but I cannot describe it in words.
25 If you show a picture or something or a uniform, I can say it was
1 this one.
2 Q. And if you look around in the courtroom, maybe -- are you able to
3 see this colour anywhere or not?
4 A. I don't understand. Where should I look?
5 Q. To any of the items --
6 JUDGE PARKER: Did you not deal with this on Friday?
7 MS. D'ASCOLI: Not specifically, Your Honour.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I told you on Friday I wasn't sure
9 I got it right.
10 JUDGE PARKER: On Friday the witness marked a colour on a colour
11 sheet, a pattern of uniform.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I showed you one.
13 MS. D'ASCOLI: Okay. I'll move on then.
14 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, at the end of page 8 of your statement of 2000 you
15 say that the Serbs came back to exhume the bodies. Do you remember when
16 was that?
17 A. When they exhumed them you are asking me?
18 Q. Yes, exactly.
19 A. Can you ask the question again, please?
20 Q. Yes, of course. At the end of your statement, the first one of
21 2000, after describing the events and after describing how you
22 participated in burying the bodies, the dead bodies that you found in
23 your village, then you also say that the Serbs came back to exhume the
24 bodies. Do you remember that?
25 A. This happened on the 12th or 13th of April when they came back
1 and pulled out the bodies, all of them.
2 Q. Okay. And who were those Serbs, again, were they in civilian
3 clothes or in uniforms?
4 A. I wasn't close by. I was about 1.000 metres away. There were
5 some dressed in white clothes, some were in yellow clothes, there was a
6 excavator and there was a truck; but I can't tell you who they were
7 because I wasn't close. And when the sun rose, they came and pulled out,
8 as I said, excavated all the bodies from the ground and loaded them onto
9 the truck. They went in the direction of Rahovec.
10 Q. Did you see that yourself, when they loaded the bodies on the
12 A. Yes, I saw it with my own eyes and heard everything because I was
13 hiding in the mountain about 1.000 metres away, but I followed everything
14 that was happening and then I saw them going in the direction of Rahovec.
15 After that I cannot tell you more. I don't know what they did.
16 Q. Okay. So do you know what happened to those bodies or not?
17 A. We found some of them in Rahovec, in Xerxe village, and in
18 Prizren. In Prizren we found them in one place. They had buried them
19 all in one single place. In Rahovec and in Xerxe they had buried them in
20 separate graves. We found them separately. Some we didn't find at all
21 even though ten years have passed by and we have not yet found their
23 Q. How do you know this, that the bodies were found, how do you know
24 about these bodies found in the places that you mentioned?
25 A. Can you please -- can you please repeat the question?
1 Q. Yes. You said that -- you said we found these bodies in this
2 place and in this other place, and I was asking you how you know and who
3 found those bodies.
4 A. The foreigners called us to go and collect the bodies. They told
5 us that such and such a number of corpses were found in Rahovec, so we
6 went there and collected these corpses. It was the foreigners who told
7 us because we, ourselves, knew nothing of their whereabouts. So after
8 that, we reburied them because before that we didn't know anything, we
9 had no news about them, but it was because of these foreigners. And can
10 you please raise the volume a little bit because I can't hear very well.
11 Q. Yes, we will.
12 Thank you very much, Mr. Krasniqi.
13 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, I don't have further questions.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now it's okay.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Ms. D'Ascoli.
16 Mr. Djordjevic, it's good to see you back.
17 Mr. Djordjevic has some questions for you, Mr. Krasniqi.
18 MR. DJORDJEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I just need some time
19 to prepare for cross just in technical terms.
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Djordjevic:
21 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Krasniqi.
22 A. Good afternoon.
23 Q. I am Dragoljub Djordjevic, and I am the Defence counsel of the
24 accused in this case. In an effort to learn as many details about what
25 you have been testifying about, I will be asking you some questions
1 bearing in mind all those things that have already been brought to my
2 attention. I have to speak slower because of the dialect of the Albanian
3 language that you're using.
4 Mr. Krasniqi, when you gave one of your more recent statements it
5 was last May. On that occasion the investigator from this Tribunal, or
6 rather, the person that you talked to told you that this had to do with
7 the proceedings against General Djordjevic. That's in paragraph 7 of
8 that statement. And you verify it or authenticated the statement with
9 your finger-print because you are illiterate.
10 Do you remember that you were told that fact?
11 A. I don't remember this at all. I didn't recognise him, I didn't
12 know him before. I don't remember what you are putting to me now.
13 Q. Well, tell me, as a citizen of what was a common state at the
14 time, do you know who Vlastimir Djordjevic is? You lived in the same
16 A. To tell you the truth, no. No, not at all, I didn't know him.
17 Q. Thank you. Now tell me, apart from this statement that you gave
18 in May of 2008, Mr. Krasniqi, do you recall how many statements you had
19 given before that one?
20 A. I have forgotten now how many I gave. I know that I gave some
21 statements, but I don't remember now. I know that there were foreigners
22 who have asked me for statements, but I can't tell you how many.
23 Q. Do you remember that in July 1999, the same year when the
24 unfortunate incident happened in Pusto Selo, that you gave a statement to
25 the investigators from the Dutch police?
1 A. Yes, it's possible, yes. 1999? Not before the event.
2 Q. After the incident and in the same year --
3 A. Before, no, I never gave any statements before what happened.
4 Q. Of course I'm asking you for the period after that. The German
5 crime police inspector Otto took a statement from you again in 1999?
6 A. No, no, I don't think so. I don't remember that at all.
7 Q. Very well. In 1999, in June and in August, do you remember
8 giving statements to anyone in that time-period some months after the
9 incident -- well, you must remember that.
10 A. To tell you the truth, it doesn't ring any bells at all. Ten
11 years have passed now. I can't -- I can't remember really.
12 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, well, your memory must have been better immediately
13 after the event than it is today, ten years after the event? Can we
14 agree about that?
15 A. Sorry, I don't hear very well. You can repeat your question. I
16 thought you were not talking to me. I apologise. I apologise, really.
17 I don't hear very well.
18 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] As far as I can see,
19 Your Honour, the headphones are not put on properly, and it's no wonder
20 that he's not hearing very well.
21 JUDGE PARKER: It's a problem with the head-dress. We've had it
22 with a number of witnesses.
23 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. I'll be patient and
24 I'll repeat the question.
25 Q. Do you agree with me, Mr. Krasniqi, that your memory of the
1 events was much better in 1999 than it is today?
2 A. I really don't remember about the statements you asked me about
3 that year, I really don't remember about 1999. I don't remember. It's
4 been a long time. I apologise, I do really.
5 Q. Very well, Mr. Krasniqi. I will now be asking you some questions
6 about the statements that you gave in light of some major discrepancies
7 between what you said in 2008 and here at this trial, and what you said
8 at the time when you gave those initial statements.
9 Mere three months after the event that you describe in June,
10 that's your first statement to a Dutch investigator, you say at page 1,
11 paragraph 2, for all the languages:
12 "In addition to the military units, paramilitary and police units
13 also entered the village. I personally saw those units. Soldiers of the
14 Serbian Army wore green camouflage uniforms, while the paramilitary units
15 and the police units wore blue camouflage uniforms, and some special
16 units wore black uniforms."
17 A. This is not what I said. This is not what I said. The policemen
18 who were in our village were about 30 to 40 years old. The soldiers are
19 not of that age. Those that I saw were with police uniforms, and this is
20 things that I went through myself, that I saw with my own eyes, and this
21 is what I'm telling you here, things that I've seen with my own eyes.
22 Q. That's precisely why I'm asking you this. This is what you're
23 saying now, yet three months after the event in your statement you said
24 the other thing. That's why I'm asking you this. How come that today
25 you were making a completely different claim and in your statement from
1 before you mentioned black uniforms, the military, the paramilitaries,
2 and the police? Could you please respond.
3 A. That's not what I said, no. What you're saying is not true.
4 Show me what I said and I will tell you -- I'm sorry to tell you this,
5 but what you're saying is not correct. I know what I've said, and I know
6 what I've seen.
7 Q. Well, I'd love to show it to you but it would be to no avail
8 because you can't read. But I referred to your statement from July 1999,
9 page 1, paragraph 2, that's the same in all the languages and that's what
10 it says there. That's not what I said. I read out to you what you said,
11 what you're recorded as saying. At page 2, paragraph 3, of the same
12 statement again in all the languages, this is what it says. Again you
13 say, Soldiers -- soldiers, not police -- soldiers who did that wore green
14 camouflage uniforms. And as far as I was able to see they were all above
15 the age of 40.
16 That's what you said today and yesterday, or rather, on Friday,
17 and that's the only thing where you're in agreement. And that's why I
18 thought that they were not proper soldiers but members of some Serbian
19 paramilitary unit. Is that what you said? They were older than 40 and
20 they belonged to a Serbian paramilitary unit?
21 A. Yes, this is correct. This is what I said, that there were no
22 military members there, that there were these persons who were of the age
23 30 to 40 policemen.
24 Q. But, Mr. Krasniqi, didn't you say that you saw tanks in your
1 A. Yes. The tanks were green.
2 Q. And did those tanks belong to the Yugoslav Army?
3 A. They were yellow. I really don't understand you about the
4 colours. I apologise.
5 Q. I didn't ask you about the colours at all. You said yourself
6 that the tank was green. Is that what you said?
7 A. We call that colour yellow. I don't know how to describe it to
8 you in words. If you show that colour to me, I can point it out. I
9 cannot describe the colours to you in words.
10 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Your Honours, the
11 Defence will again move that the usher take this paper, place it on the
13 JUDGE PARKER: Quite some time was spent on Friday,
14 Mr. Djordjevic, discussing two distinct problems that are relevant.
15 First is different language descriptions of some colours from what you
16 and I might be used to; the second is this particular witness's
17 difficulty with observing particular colours. So you may find that what
18 you're about to do will not help very much.
19 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm fully
20 acquainted with the witness's answers to my learned friend Ms. D'Ascoli,
21 and I am also familiar with the extraordinary effort undertaken on her
22 part as well as by the Bench to try to deal with this issue. I believe
23 this will once and for all resolve the issue of colour recognition.
24 My intention was not directed at that. I wanted to ask him
25 something else. I wanted to say that this is D003-3234. I believe it
1 would be useful to have it put on the ELMO, and I wanted to ask the
2 witness to indicate the colour of the tank. If he succeeds by using this
3 document, then I will have some follow-up questions. I won't ask him to
4 indicate whether it's an A, B, 1, or 2, only to point at it with his
6 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, please look at the colours on the sheet of paper to
7 your right. On that piece of paper to your right, show me the colour of
8 the tank.
9 A. [Indicates]
10 Q. That was the tank's colour. What is your name for that colour?
11 A. We call it "verdhe," yellow.
12 JUDGE PARKER: For the record, the witness pointed to the blue
13 colour patch.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how it's called, but
15 where I come from the colour of the tank was of this colour that I
16 showed. I don't know how it's standardly called.
17 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Can you tell me what is the name for the colour on the left,
19 upper row left?
20 A. [No interpretation]
21 Q. What is your name for that colour?
22 A. We call it grass colour. This is how we call it, but I didn't
23 see it there.
24 Q. What about the colour in the row at the bottom to the right?
25 A. [Indicates]
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. This one is yellow. We call it "sari."
3 JUDGE PARKER: Again, for the record, Mr. Djordjevic, when the
4 witness pointed out a grass colour it was the right upper colour patch to
5 which he pointed, not the left upper, as you had asked.
6 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honour. I
7 corrected myself when the witness said that by saying that it was in the
8 upper right-hand side corner.
9 Q. Concerning the first colour you indicated, next can you look at
10 the patch in the upper row just above the first patch?
11 A. First row?
12 Q. That one.
13 A. That is red. We call it red.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] This item D003-3234 I would like
16 to seek to tender that by -- and also to add that the witness pointed out
17 certain patches in the order recorded by the transcript.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, the red is the colour that was in the centre,
19 upper colour patch.
20 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D223, Your Honours.
23 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] It is already in e-court.
24 Perhaps I can have the hard copy back, it is D003-3234. Thank you.
25 Your Honours, now it becomes clear what we did not understand on
1 Friday, that is to say that the witness is not color-blind, rather, the
2 problem is his denomination of the colours. If I may have a moment
3 before my next question. It has to do with the vehicles used by the VJ
4 and the police. I just need to find out the number. It is P318. Can
5 that be shown to the witness, please, and I would like him to point out
6 the vehicle for which he said was the tank. Perhaps he can point at it
7 with his finger or with the pen provided to him by the usher. I think it
8 is page 4 of P318. Perhaps he can tell me whether that is a tank.
9 This is obviously not it. Perhaps before that.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These were not there.
11 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] [Previous translation
12 continues]... the next photograph.
13 I would kindly ask for the next photograph. I'm not interested
14 in any of these vehicles. Perhaps the previous photograph, not the
15 vehicles numbers 13, 14, and 15. I conclude that there must be several
16 pages in P318.
17 Q. Do you see a tank on any of these photographs, witness?
18 A. No. These were not the ones that were there. This one has
20 Q. I'll move on. Was that a tracked vehicle?
21 A. Yes, it had tracks. It was yellow on tracks.
22 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have the photographs
23 preceding these, that is to say photographs 8, 7, 6, and 5, I presume.
24 Q. Do you see such a vehicle here, tank?
25 A. This one here possibly.
1 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the usher to
2 provide the witness with an electronic pen so that he can mark the
3 vehicle in whichever way he finds best.
4 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, using the pen you hold in your hand, please mark
5 the vehicle, touch the screen with the pen to indicate which vehicle it
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. That is a tank? Thank you.
9 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this.
10 JUDGE PARKER: I think it would be useful to look at photos 1 to
11 4 as well. Sheet number 2 of Exhibit P318 will be received.
12 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I agree.
13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D224, Your Honours.
14 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I think there was a
15 misunderstanding, Your Honour. I believe you wanted the witness to see
16 the page number 2. I do find this was sufficient, but I shall comply
17 with your wishes.
18 JUDGE PARKER: I notice the word of the witness "possibly this
19 one," so we might as well look at the remaining ones in the exhibit.
20 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we next see the photographs
21 before these, probably the numbers are 4, 3, 2, and 1, page 1, I suppose
22 or page 2.
23 Q. There, Mr. Krasniqi, more tracked vehicles.
24 A. These ones were not there, but on the 7th at the school these
25 were there; whereas where the massacre was committed, these vehicles were
1 not there. There were only the yellow ones that I mentioned.
2 Q. Very well, Mr. Krasniqi. Thank you. I can see that we have
3 already assigned an exhibit number. You marked in red what you believed
4 was the tank. I can tell you that the police force did not have tanks,
5 and all vehicles were green or the colour of grass. None of it was
6 yellow as you called it. There was not a single tank that was dyed
7 blue --
8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djordjevic, you're giving evidence at the
10 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Of course Defence is obligated
11 to put forth such evidence to confirm that.
12 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, in your first statement from July of 1999 I counted
13 32 occasions when you mentioned the word "army" and only in one place you
14 mentioned the word "police." Ten years later it is the other way around,
15 everything is police and there's almost no army. How do you explain
17 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. D'Ascoli.
19 MS. D'ASCOLI: I'm sorry, just briefly. If my learned colleague
20 can be more specific when he mentions statements because in saying in
21 your first statement from July of 1999, it doesn't specify to which
22 statement he's referring to, and I'm afraid the witness could be confused
23 about that. Thank you.
24 JUDGE PARKER: The witness has no memory of having given a
25 statement in July 1999, so it will be important I think for the record
1 only to be identifying the statement. Thank you, Mr. Djordjevic.
2 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. It is
3 D003-3209 of the 7 of July, 1999. Mr. Krasniqi gave that statement to
4 the member of an investigative team of the Dutch police. It was around
5 10.25. That is the statement I'm referring to, and I've been referring
6 to it throughout. I didn't mention the August statement. In that
7 statement I counted 32 words that have to do with the army, including
8 uniforms and soldiers, and only once did he mention the word "police."
9 I'm asking him this: How come now, a decade later, there is such
10 a difference in the way he describes things?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know what you're
12 saying. I don't remember a thing of the things you're saying. How am I
13 supposed to explain something that I don't know?
14 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, obviously you do not remember, therefore I will
16 have to jog your memory. Your statement of the 1st of August, 1999, to
17 Mr. Otto, who was a senior crime inspector, in -- the statement was
18 drafted in German and translated into English, B/C/S, and Albanian. It
19 is D003-3296, your statement of the 1st of August, 1999.
20 Today we realised that you recognise colours, you can tell them,
21 but your names for them are somewhat different. However, when you say
22 that something was the colour of grass then we all know what you mean.
23 In your statement paragraph 4 discussing the tanks --
24 A. I really don't remember this part at all. I don't remember
25 saying that. I really don't know how to explain it to you. I don't
1 remember this at all.
2 Q. It is rather unusual that you do not remember the things you
3 discussed immediately after the massacre and that now, ten years later,
4 you seem to recall some things that you did not mention before. In any
5 case, in paragraph 4 concerning the tanks you said at the end of the
7 "I wanted to add that the colours -- the vehicles were of
8 olive-grey-green colour."
9 In paragraph 3, the one preceding it, it is stated that on the
10 hills surrounding the village you saw two tanks out of a total of eight
11 or out of the armoured vehicles that were there to the extent you can
12 recall. Can you explain, were there two tanks or eight tanks or two
13 tanks and some other vehicles amounting to a total of eight?
14 A. I don't understand what you are putting to me. I really don't
16 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, on -- in the statement you said that on the
17 31st of March, 1999, that the Serbs reached the outskirts of Pusto Selo
18 on tanks. It is in paragraph 3 --
19 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honour.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djordjevic, you have me confused now.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay. Go on. Go ahead.
22 JUDGE PARKER: You mentioned a statement to Dutch investigators
23 in July 1999 --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay. Okay. Go on.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Then one to German on the 1st of August, 1999, and
1 now you're mentioning apparently a third statement, the
2 31st of March, 1999.
3 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I'm still with
4 the August statement in German provided to Mr. Otto. I mentioned the
5 31st of March, 1999, as a point of reference in paragraph 3. It says the
6 witness then said that the Serb forces on the 31st of March, 1999,
7 reached the outskirts of Pusto Selo on tanks.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Okay.
9 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours --
10 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. D'Ascoli.
11 MS. D'ASCOLI: -- sorry to interrupt. If my learned colleague is
12 still referring to the same statement, I think the witness has answered
13 several times and he has said that he doesn't remember.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, but I think Mr. Djordjevic must be allowed to
15 explore some material differences, putting them to the witness, and see
16 if he can make any comment about them. That's what Mr. Djordjevic is
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. In your statement, paragraph 3 -- well, perhaps this would be
21 better so as to be able to deal with any doubts maybe we can have it in
22 English. It is D003-3226. I will wait for it to appear on the screen so
23 that we would all be able to see what it is I'm talking about. Page 2,
25 Very well. Could we have the English version? We have it in
1 B/C/S and in German as far as I can see and not all of us can read that.
2 Some do, however, some can, but not all. The English version, please.
3 First of all, I asked you what the olive-grey-green colour is,
4 and that occurs in paragraph 4.
5 A. I don't know how to describe it in words, but show me something I
6 can show you then.
7 Q. Is it green, or rather, can green be also yellow or not?
8 A. They are not the same. They are different of course.
9 Q. When I say "yellow," I mean the colour you indicated, which we
10 call blue, but green is green. Therefore, I'm asking you this: In
11 paragraph 4 you said that the tanks were olive-drab or olive-grey-green
12 in colour. Today you said they were yellow or blue, as we call it.
13 A. I don't understand what you are putting to me. The tanks that
14 came to our village were "verdhe" as we say it. I explained it to you.
15 Now I don't understand.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Can you please ask the witness to speak closer
17 to the microphone?
18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Krasniqi, do you remember being interviewed by
19 German investigators in 1999?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The month?
21 JUDGE PARKER: I believe it is in August 1999.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Frankly speaking, I don't recall.
23 I remember at an earlier time I remember there was a German guy, but I
24 think it was July when he interviewed us.
25 JUDGE PARKER: And you told him about the events in your village,
1 did you? I didn't get any translation of that answer.
2 THE INTERPRETER: He didn't say anything.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you explain a little bit more,
4 Your Honour? Because ten years have passed. Maybe you can just give me
5 a clue as to what he asked me. Now I don't understand. I have
6 forgotten. And because of the war, I am not so clear in my head. I have
7 great problems so far. Sometimes I went out at night and got lost and my
8 family had to find where I was. I feel -- I have, rather, a thick head.
9 I don't understand. I don't remember things. The doctors are taking
10 care of me because I have some problems in my head, but give me some
11 clues, some hints, and maybe I can tell you what.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. You remember, you think, talking to a
13 German fellow, do you?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE PARKER: And did you talk about the events in your village
16 that you've been telling us about?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I spoke with a German, of course
18 I must have spoken about what happened in my village because otherwise
19 what business did I have with a German guy? So of course I must have
20 spoken about these events. But tell me what you want to know, and I can
21 answer that. But I'm sure I've spoken about my own village because I
22 cannot speak about other things that I don't know, only about the
23 massacre in Pastasel. This I know very well and this -- about this I can
24 tell you from A to Z.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Do you remember telling him about what you
1 described as Serb units arriving at your village one day?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When was that?
3 JUDGE PARKER: Well, the statement suggests you may have said it
4 was the 31st of March that the Serb units arrived at your village. Do
5 you remember that happening or do you remember talking about that to the
6 German fellow?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The year?
8 JUDGE PARKER: 1999.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a blank memory. I don't
10 recall anything at all. No, no, I don't.
11 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may. Given my
12 long experience as a Defence counsel and thinking about human rights and
13 humanism regarding law and legal philosophy, perhaps this might be a good
14 moment for me to say that I don't know whether this witness is capable of
15 giving testimony in the manner which would be acceptable for the Court,
16 given the fact that obviously the witness is in -- of an advanced age and
17 he has told us quite sincerely that he's sometimes losing orientation in
18 time and space.
19 So this would be the mental element, as we call it, or the mens
20 rea in the commission of a crime. And when we're talking about the
21 witness, that refers to the capability of a witness to actually testify
22 in court. So I think that we have a big problem here which might
23 definitely cause a lot of problems for us in future. So perhaps this
24 might be a good time for me to table this now that we're dealing with
25 procedural matters.
1 JUDGE PARKER: That's a matter of significance. There seem to be
2 two distinct issues there, Mr. Djordjevic. One of them is what the
3 witness now remembers and tells us about certain events; the other is
4 what the witness may remember about telling other people, whether they be
5 Dutch or German or whoever, in 1999. The witness is very clear that he
6 really doesn't remember any detail of what he may have told people in
8 On the other hand, he has spent some time on Friday and today
9 telling us about certain events which he says he now can remember. Now,
10 if that is his present memory, it's perfectly valid for you to test its
11 reliability by pointing out that he may have said things that are quite
12 different at an earlier time, and that may leave us then with a very
13 clear understanding of the reliability of the witness's recollection
15 But I don't think it's possible to say in light of all the
16 evidence that he's presently given that he has no capacity to speak about
17 the events as he now remembers them. So it may be valuable for you to
18 continue just pointing out material differences between earlier
19 statements and the present testimony.
20 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I am
21 not capable of actually doing the first evaluation that you talked about,
22 but I would like to propose, since we are now asking questions about
23 those two statements ...
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] So I would like to propose that
1 both statements be admitted into evidence, the first one is of the
2 7th of July, 1999, D003-3209, and the other one dates the
3 1st of August, 1999, D003-3226.
4 JUDGE PARKER: There are three ways that can be done at least,
5 Mr. Djordjevic, one is the witness identifying those statements as
6 statements he has made; the second is by consent of the Prosecutor that
7 they are statements, and that may be the most practical; and the third is
8 by calling other witnesses to say that he made those statements. At the
9 moment, it is this witness's evidence that he doesn't remember any one of
10 those statements. He's not a person who reads or can sign, so it is
11 probably not much use asking him to identify the statement.
12 Now, perhaps it is that the Prosecution will agree that both of
13 the previous statements you've now mentioned should now be received in
15 MS. D'ASCOLI: Well, Your Honours, we wouldn't agree to that
16 since the witness doesn't remember having given those statements, nor we
17 know those statements were read back to him or not. So I would object to
19 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as I can
20 remember the witness said that he was aware of the German inspector, that
21 he heard of it.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Two statements will be marked for identification
23 at the present time, Mr. Djordjevic.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this would be Exhibit D225 marked
25 for identification and Exhibit D226 marked for identification.
1 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, do you remember that in 1999 a German spoke to you?
3 Do you remember or not?
4 A. I don't remember anything about that. Sorry, I don't remember.
5 Q. Let me go back to the statement that you gave on the
6 7th of July, 1999, page 2, paragraph 3, in all the languages. You are
7 recorded as saying -- please listen to me --
8 A. You can read it, but I don't remember.
9 Q. Just hear me out. You're recorded as saying:
10 "I saw only green military vehicles," you don't say police, "I
11 saw people in black uniforms with insignia on their sleeves. I don't
12 know what kind of insignia they had."
13 Is this something that you stated at any point?
14 A. I don't remember exactly what I said. I don't think I said that.
15 I don't understand what you're getting at. What is in these statements?
16 Q. Mr. Krasniqi --
17 A. These are not the statements that were given to the Tribunal.
18 There were other statements, 2001. 2001 in July was a statement that was
19 given to the Tribunal, but the other ones I don't know. I don't remember
20 any earlier ones.
21 Q. Do you remember who it was that you gave the statement in 2001
22 and what month -- and what was the name of the investigator from the
24 A. No, I don't remember.
25 Q. Tell me, when you used the term "paramilitary" in your
1 statements, what did you mean by that?
2 A. Where did I say that?
3 Q. In your statements. I said that generally speaking. You did
4 that in all of your statements apart from the one from 2008.
5 A. In 2008 I may have said that.
6 Q. Well, it's not the essence of my question when you said it, but
7 what do you mean when you say "paramilitary"? What does it mean? Can
8 you explain to me what did you mean? If you used this word, it must have
9 a meaning, so let's hear it. What is your meaning of the word
11 A. We used that word to describe the police.
12 Q. Thank you. Well, it's much clearer now. Since you don't
13 remember your statements from 1999, I will now ask you something about
14 the statement that you gave on the 14th and 16th of January, 2000; and
15 this is the statement that you gave to the investigators of this Tribunal
16 about the forces that entered your village, the colours of their
17 uniforms, what they looked like, the insignia that they had, and the
18 weapons. You said that you remembered the statements that you gave to
19 the investigators, so that's what I'm going to be asking you about. So
20 the statement of the 14th and the 16th of January, year 2000, page 3,
21 paragraph 3 B/C/S; page 3, paragraph 5, in the English; and page 3 in the
22 Albanian you say:
23 "At that time from the direction of school in Pusto Selo about 30
24 to 50 Serb policemen and soldiers headed towards us. They were all
25 wearing green camouflage uniforms," so you don't speak about yellow or
1 blue uniforms at all. "I saw that almost all of them were older than 40,
2 and I assume that they were all policemen in this group because of their
3 age; however, I did not see any of them dressed in blue camouflage
5 So could you please explain to me how come that you said this in
6 2000, and today and on Friday your testimony is completely different?
7 Your terminology regarding colours is completely clear to us.
8 A. I don't really understand what you're getting at.
9 Q. I would like you to answer me. I read out what you said, that
10 they all wore green camouflage uniforms, and after that you say blue, or
11 rather, yellow, as you want to say. How come that in 2000 you said that
12 they wore green camouflage uniforms, and now you say that they wore blue
13 camouflage uniforms?
14 A. I'm sorry. I don't remember what I said at the time, what I said
15 or didn't say at the time. I don't remember. If there's a difference, I
16 don't remember.
17 Q. Well, obviously you don't remember any difference, but I'll have
18 to really insist on it because there is a discrepancy. And let me ask
19 you again. You said that they all wore camouflage green uniforms, and
20 you don't mix green with any other colour in your head. You said -- you
21 said that there were no blue camouflage uniforms there. How come that
22 you said that at the time and now you're telling us something completely
23 different? So to an investigator of this Tribunal, not to a German guy
24 or a Dutch guy. That's what you said and you signed it, or rather, you
25 authenticated the statement with your finger-print.
1 A. Maybe there were mistakes in my statement, there were things that
2 I may not have understood properly. Maybe they didn't understand what I
3 was saying about the colours in particular.
4 Q. Today we all realised that you can tell colours apart, and we
5 understand that when you say "yellow" you actually mean blue, and we
6 understand that when you say "green" you mean green. And that's why I
7 don't have a dilemma here. At page 7 of B/C/S; page 8, paragraph 2, of
8 the English statement, the same statement, you say that the Serbs came in
9 Serb -- in trucks, tanks, and jeeps. The pictures that -- where I
10 recognised them, I marked them with "X," and you did mark a T-55 tank
11 that was used by the Yugoslav Army. And you said:
12 "I have already told you that the Serbs used an ordinary
13 green-coloured military truck and the jeep was a Pinzgauer."
14 Now, I want to ask you again: Do you remember how many vehicles
15 came in at all?
16 A. I don't remember. I'm sorry. I've forgotten.
17 Q. I want to ask you in addition to the two tanks were there any
18 other vehicles? Were there any other tanks, armoured vehicles, jeeps,
19 trucks? Did you see anything of the sort on the eve of the massacre?
20 A. You mean the day before the massacre? No, they were only on that
21 day, on the 31st of March they came to our village. There weren't any
23 Q. And were there any other vehicles apart from tanks? That's what
24 I'm asking you. Apart from tanks, were there any other vehicles?
25 A. There were other villages -- other vehicles, but they were not in
1 our village. I only saw the tanks there, but I don't remember whether
2 there were others. I saw only what came to our village, but there were
3 some in Pastasel village.
4 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a good time
5 for us to have our technical break. It's half past 1.00, and we started
6 at noon.
7 JUDGE PARKER: We're going to have our first break now. We will
8 resume at five minutes past 1.00. Mr. Krasniqi, a court officer will
9 assist you during the break, and Mr. Djordjevic will continue after the
10 break. We adjourn now.
11 --- Recess taken at 1.33 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 2.11 p.m.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djordjevic.
14 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, I will move on to your statement of last year, the
16 21st of May, 2008. Can you hear me?
17 A. Yes, I can hear you.
18 Q. At page 3, paragraph 19 in all languages you say that:
19 "The Serbian policemen did not wear face masks, but all of them
20 kept their green camouflage-colour caps so that no one could see their
22 Then in the next paragraph, paragraph 20, you say:
23 "The policemen had painted faces with some black marks somewhere
24 below the level of their eyes."
25 Next, paragraph 21, you say:
1 "Many of the police officers were bearded and the age of most of
2 them was over 30 years."
3 In the paragraph following that, paragraph 22, you say:
4 "I saw on the back of the police officers that there was
5 something written on it, and since I'm illiterate I learnt from my
6 neighbours and other people that it said 'police.'"
7 What you said in that statement, is that correct, is that true?
8 A. Yes, that's the way it was, and the writing on the back of the
9 police, that's true. They had that on their backs and their hats -- and
10 their caps were that way too.
11 Q. Green camouflage, the caps were green camouflage?
12 A. No, no.
13 Q. Why did you say so then? That was only a year ago, on the
14 31st of May last year, these were your words:
15 "They all wore green camouflage caps."
16 A. I don't remember what I said at the time. I've forgotten. But I
17 would say that's the way it was. They had black caps and they had
18 painted their faces over in black so you couldn't see their faces, they
19 were wearing masks, but they weren't camouflage -- but I couldn't get a
20 good look at them because we were supposed to look down at the ground all
21 the time. They said look down at the earth that is Serbian land. We
22 were supposed to look down at the ground all the time, so I couldn't get
23 a good look at them.
24 Q. Did you just say that they had masks on their faces or did I
25 perhaps misunderstand you? Did you just say that they had masks over
1 their faces or did I misunderstand you?
2 A. No, they didn't, no they didn't.
3 Q. Can you tell me why is it you said they had green camouflage
4 caps? Why did you say so then, whereas you seem to deny it today?
5 A. No, that's not what I said. They did have black caps with
6 scarves, and their faces were painted black.
7 Q. I must confess that you have greatly confused me. This is
8 something you said for the first time. I put to you what you said back
10 "Members of the Serb police did not wear masks, but they all had
11 green camouflage caps."
12 That's what you said. Now you're telling us they had bandannas
13 and caps and they were painted black. What is true of all of that?
14 Could you please provide an answer, Mr. Krasniqi?
15 A. Their caps were black. They didn't have masks, but they did have
16 paint on their faces, but they didn't really have masks. And the caps
17 had a visor.
18 Q. Can you describe these visor caps for me. It's not very clear to
19 me. This is something a helmet would have, a regular motorcycle helmet
20 would have that you put over your face to protect it and it's
21 transparent, but what sort of caps do you have in mind? This is really
23 A. They had black caps. I don't know what else I can tell you. And
24 they covered -- their nose was covered. You couldn't see their noses.
25 Q. It seems we have a third force now wearing a third type of
1 uniform. First we had grey and green uniforms, now we have visor caps.
2 In any case, in that statement of the 31st of May, given to an
3 investigator of this Tribunal last year, you say that on their backs you
4 saw the sign "police." You never mentioned that prior to that. You said
5 having seen different types of insignia or patches on their sleeves, but
6 that given the situation you were in, you were unable to observe those
7 well and hence are unable to describe them. How come now, a decade
8 later, you mentioned for the first time having seen the sign "police" on
9 their backs? You have never mentioned that before, quite the contrary.
10 You said that you did not make out any of the insignia or the patches.
11 This is in all of your statements.
12 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. D'Ascoli.
14 MS. D'ASCOLI: Sorry to interrupt. Can I please have a reference
15 for the witness mentioning different types of insignia or patches on
16 their sleeves, a reference to either one of the statements and page
17 number. Thank you.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djordjevic.
19 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] You want me to find that and to
20 share it with my learned friend? In that case, I may need a moment or
21 two. Please bear with me.
22 I will move on and then come back to this point so as not to
23 waste time while looking for the reference, Your Honours.
24 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, your statement of the 14th of January, 2000, and
25 the 16th of January, 2000, paragraph 11. In that statement you say that
1 the police and soldiers all wore green camouflage uniforms and that you
2 saw all of them being over 40. You also say that you supposed that all
3 of them in that group were policemen because of their age. However, you
4 did not see any of them wearing blue camouflage uniforms.
5 "However, I did not see any of them dressed in blue camouflage
7 That is what you said, as not having seen any of them in blue
8 camouflage uniforms. That was back in 2000. Your words, Mr. Krasniqi.
9 Why are you stating something that is contrary to that now? You also
10 signed that statement. It was read back to you. You put your
11 finger-print on it. It's paragraph 11. That was my first question
12 concerning this topic. Can we get an answer, please.
13 A. I don't think I changed anything, but I don't know what they
14 wrote. I just know how to talk. I don't know what they wrote about it
15 in my statement, so I can't really tell. I don't know how to read and
16 write, so I can't tell what they're writing in these statements, whether
17 they're true or not. All I know is I'm telling the truth, and I'm not
18 telling any lies.
19 Q. Did you state this back in 2000? Can you please answer that
20 first. They all wore green camouflage uniforms and you say you did not
21 see any of them wearing blue camouflage uniforms as you had before.
22 Therefore, my first question is: Did you say this or not?
23 A. I don't know. I don't know.
24 Q. You don't know. Very well. In the same paragraph 11 you say --
25 well, there's a sentence in the middle of the paragraph:
1 "I suppose that they were all policemen in this group."
2 You supposed. You also state that your presumption was based on
3 the fact that they were all over 40. In 2008 you say that they had
4 police signs on their backs, as you were told by a neighbour. So in 2008
5 you supposed they were policemen -- sorry, that was in 2000. And in 2008
6 you are telling us they were policemen. How did that change come about?
7 Why didn't you say in 2000 that they had police signs on their backs?
8 And as of that point in time we would know they were policemen, end of
10 A. I'm talking about -- there's 2008 and there's 2002, but I don't
11 know what I said at the time. I don't remember what their uniforms were
12 like. I don't know how they were armed, but if you ask me specifically
13 about the uniforms maybe I can remember. I remember the event, what
14 happened that night. I remember then how the police were dressed and how
15 people were at the school and about the military vehicles that were
17 For the event I can tell you -- I can tell you that they were
18 wearing black hats and that their noses were covered over with a visor,
19 and -- but I can't tell you all the details. But I do remember the
20 massacre and everything -- I can tell you everything about the massacre.
21 Now you're asking me about the years, 2000, 2008, I don't remember which
22 year I said what, but I can tell you what happened, exactly what
23 happened, there. That I can tell you, and I can tell you the truth about
24 it. Whether it's 2008 or 2002, the statement, I don't know but that's
25 not important. But what I can tell you is what happened during the
1 event, during the massacre. I can tell you that.
2 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, you're quite right in saying that years do not
3 matter, but what does matter, though, are the drastic differences in your
4 two statements. I'm only referring to the years for the sake of my
5 learned friend, Madam Prosecutor, and not for your sake. I'm only
6 putting to you that in one statement you said one thing, stating
7 something quite otherwise, quite contrary to it in the next statement.
8 Perhaps you can clarify that for me. That was my first question. My
9 second question is this -- first, let's go back to the reference sought
10 by Madam Prosecutor. It is the July statement --
11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djordjevic, we've been silent until now. At
12 any stage, but certainly with this witness, could I suggest that you keep
13 your question to one subject and keep it short and clear. You tend to
14 have a habit of asking a number of details, perhaps that you've read from
15 a statement or that you suggest is different from what the witness says
16 in his evidence and what was written in an earlier statement.
17 The witness, when you do that, tends to answer you about the very
18 last thing you have put to him and not about what you have said before
19 that. I think it's going to be more satisfactory for you and your
20 questions - it's certainly going to help us more - if you just put one
21 question to the witness and get his answer and then move on to the next
23 So if you want to know about the colour of a hat or a uniform,
24 deal with that. If you want to know whether there was a tank or some
25 other vehicle or several vehicles, deal with that and so on. And I think
1 we may all make better progress.
2 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] You're right, Your Honour. It
3 was only my modest attempt to get the witness to understand what it is
4 that I was asking him because most of my questions were answered with
5 "I don't know" or "I don't remember." I apologise. I will strive to be
6 more direct.
7 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, in one statement you said that they all wore green
8 camouflage uniforms, that they had no blue uniforms whatsoever; and in
9 the other statement you say quite the opposite. Why is that? Once you
10 put it one way, the next time you put it the another way. Why did you
11 change that?
12 A. I don't know what to say. I don't remember things. Maybe I may
13 have said, but I don't remember. I don't understand any of this.
14 Q. I'm asking you why you changed your original statement from green
15 to blue, from blue to black, perhaps you can answer that; if not, I'll
16 move on.
17 A. I don't know what to say. I -- actually, I don't realise I have
18 changed anything. This is what I'm saying. I'm only stressing that I
19 know everything that happened in relation to the massacre. This I can
20 testify to in every single detail. I feel very sick, you know, now; but
21 if you want me to testify to the event, that I can do very well. That I
22 can speak about. But what other things you are putting to me, I don't
23 know. Maybe I've made some mistakes about what you are saying because I
24 haven't been feeling very well. I don't remember what you are asking me
1 Q. You said you felt unwell. Does that mean that I can continue or
2 not? I don't wish to pursue any matters any further if you are not
3 feeling well.
4 A. If you asked me about things I know, of course I can give you an
5 answer. I can go on.
6 Q. Your statement of the 14th of January, 2000, the last page, if we
7 count from the bottom of the page it is the fourth paragraph from the
8 bottom, you say:
9 "You ask me if I'm able to recognise any shoulder patches used by
10 the Serbs. I do not think I am able to do that.
11 Investigator Kristiansen showed me several patches, but I did not
12 recognise any of them."
13 That was in 2000. In 2008 you discuss police insignia or signs
14 on their backs. Why didn't you mention that in 2000?
15 A. This is what I said. I know this, yes, I said, it was written
17 Q. Did it say "milicija" or "policija"?
18 A. "Policija," "policija."
19 Q. Why did you say that in 2008 and you never said that before, yet
20 you were asked about the insignia before that time?
21 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, I think it's --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This I don't know. I don't know --
23 MS. D'ASCOLI: I'm sorry --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. I don't know. Maybe
25 they didn't ask me about that. They didn't ask me this question
1 probably. I don't know.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Now, Ms. D'Ascoli.
3 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes. I think it's quite two different aspects,
4 because in the statement of 2000 we're speaking about shoulder patches
5 that were shown to him by the investigator, while in 2008 he's just
6 mentioning having seen something written at the back of the police
7 officers in paragraph 22. I don't see how this could be the same event
8 or the same fact he was asked about.
9 JUDGE PARKER: No doubt that will be your submission in due
10 course, Ms. D'Ascoli, but we're interested to hear the explanation of the
11 witness if he is able to give one. And I think we've probably heard his
12 explanation as best as he's offering it in that last answer,
13 Mr. Djordjevic.
14 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Precisely, Your Honour. Let us
15 move on.
16 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, can you tell us as regards 1998 and 1999 the name
17 of your village is Pusto Selo. Were there any KLA positions around your
19 A. But not in my village. There were KLA but not in my village. I
20 don't know where. There was no KLA presence in 1998 or any time. There
21 were only the police and the army, more army, but not KLA presence.
22 Q. Where was there more army than the police?
23 A. In 1998 in Pastasel village.
24 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell me, how did you conclude that
25 the Serbian forces that attacked you were actually the police?
1 A. How did I conclude that? I saw them with my own eyes, and I
2 heard what was going on. Nobody made me say this. I saw it myself.
3 Q. No, I'm asking you how did you know whether they were the army,
4 the police, or the paramilitaries? That's what I'm asking you.
5 A. Everybody can distinguish the army from the uniforms, from the --
6 from the insignia, everybody could know that and everybody could tell the
7 police, the milicija. Usually the army members are young people, 20, 22,
8 23, this I know. Police are older. And in 1998 the military behaved
9 well. They didn't do anything wrong. They didn't kill anyone. They
10 didn't set fire to any houses.
11 Q. What about the reservists in the army, how old would they be?
12 There was a state of war; have you forgotten that?
13 A. The reservists might be from 25, 30 years old, but in 1998 they
14 did little damage to us. They didn't kill us. Only few people were
15 killed that night. The damage was small. But in 1999 in March, the
16 entire village was destroyed. 106 were killed. The houses were all
17 burned. Every single house was set fire to that night. This is what
18 happened that night. But in 1998 the damage inflicted on us was slight.
19 Q. I'm not saying that this was a pity; it was a tragedy. We'll
20 agree with it. We're just trying to determine who actually did it.
21 That's the only thing that I'm trying to ascertain, Mr. Krasniqi. Let us
22 go back -- Go ahead.
23 A. I don't know it either who did it, who gave the order, who was
24 the commander. This I don't know. I only know that what happened
25 happened that night when they came at about 2.00 I think, 1999; when they
1 came there they separated the men from women and children and they
2 ordered the women to head towards Albania. I showed you this. And they
3 escorted the children and the women towards Albania and they ordered us
4 to kneel, to fall on our knees, like we do when we are in the mosque and
5 look down at the earth. This earth belongs to Serbia. And they started
6 maltreating us --
7 Q. Thank you. That's what I heard, sir. Thank you very much. I've
8 heard that, and it is a tragedy all this that happened, and I really
9 sympathise and I'm sorry for that. But what I told you -- this is just
10 my effort to ascertain who actually did it because probably there will be
11 other trials, not before this Tribunal, that will be dealing with this.
12 But I want to ask you this: You told me that you knew about the
13 presence of the KLA soldiers, but where were they, do you know that? You
14 don't --
15 A. This I don't know. I know I can distinguish KLA members, but I
16 don't know where they were.
17 Q. Very well.
18 A. I never knew where they were.
19 Q. Well, can you tell me how would you be able to recognise them?
20 A. I know because I knew who they were. I could see their uniforms,
21 their weapons; but in those events that I'm testifying to, there was not
22 a single KLA member. Oh, no, there wasn't anyone from KLA.
23 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, in one of your statements, the 2000 statement, at
24 page 6, paragraph 8 in the B/C/S; page 7, paragraph 3 in the English
25 text, you say that you knew Hamed Krasniqi. Who is he?
1 A. He is from the Drenofc, from Drenofc, about 20 -- 12 kilometres
2 away from us. He was present at the burial ceremony on the 1st of April.
3 He came to give us a hand in burying the corpses. He is from Drenofc
4 village. He was dressed in civilian clothes like I am today. He came to
5 assist us in the burial of the bodies.
6 Q. What else can you tell us about Hamed Krasniqi?
7 A. I don't know more than that. I only know that he was there. He
8 came to help us to bury these corpses. First to pull them out of the
9 brook, and then to bury them. This is all I can tell you about him. I
10 don't want to tell you any lies, and that he was dressed in civilian
11 clothes and that this happened on the 1st of April.
12 Q. You stressed that he wore civilian clothes. Why did you stress
13 that? Was it that he was wearing some other kind of clothes at other
15 A. I'm telling you that when he was in KLA he was in KLA uniform,
16 but I'm saying about the day when he came to assist us.
17 Q. Well, he was in the KLA?
18 A. Yes, he was in before, but the day when he came to help us to
19 bury the corpses he was unarmed and in civilian clothes.
20 Q. Well, do you know what he was in the KLA? Did he have some kind
21 of a rank? Was he just an ordinary soldier or was he a commander of some
23 A. He was not a commander. He was a soldier. He was at a point.
24 Q. Do you know that for a fact, or is it something that you think?
25 A. I know it. I know very well that he was a soldier.
1 Q. Do you know who was the KLA commander in that area?
2 A. There was no KLA commander in our village. There was no KLA and
3 no KLA commander.
4 Q. [Previous translation continues]... asking you about. I didn't
5 ask you about your village.
6 A. I don't know who the commander was. I only know that he was a
7 soldier at this point because sometimes we went to buy something there,
8 and I know that there were some soldiers, because nobody told me who the
9 commander was. I never asked about that.
10 Q. Tell me, how many Serbs lived around your village, in the area
11 around your village?
12 A. There were more Serbs in Rahovec, but in our village we didn't
13 have any Serbs. Maybe there were some around the village.
14 Q. Did you hear of any crimes committed by the KLA against the
15 Serbs? Civilians, I'm not talking about the police or the military.
16 A. To tell you the truth, no, I didn't hear anything, and nobody
17 told me anything, and I didn't see anything. I'm a working person. I
18 don't know these things.
19 Q. Tell me, how many refugees were there in your village before the
20 31st of March, 1999, so that would be a day or two before?
21 A. When they came that night you mean? Over 2-, 3.000. There were
22 so many that they couldn't be accommodated in the school. They were
23 distributed in different families. Some families hosted 30, 40 persons.
24 So in total I would say there were 2-, 3.000 families from Kline, from
25 all over they came to the school.
1 Q. But can you tell me why did all these people come to your
3 A. They were leaving their own villages, and they said to us that
4 the police had told them to go to Pastasel. As to who told them, this I
5 don't know. But I only know that they came to our village, to the
6 school, and that they were not allowed to go to Albania but were told to
7 go to Pastasel. This is what they told us. This is what I know from
8 their words.
9 Q. Tell me, how many women and children were there and how many men,
10 what would be your estimate? If you can give us an estimate; if not ...
11 A. There were less men and more women and children.
12 Q. Why was it like that? Where were all those men?
13 A. I don't know where the men were. I didn't know them. I'm simply
14 telling you what the situation was like that time -- at that time, and
15 that there were more men --
16 THE INTERPRETERS: More -- correction -- women.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and children than men.
18 Q. That's what I'm asking you. Mr. Krasniqi, we have to clear one
19 thing up. In 1999 --
20 A. Yes, sir, whatever I know I will tell you. I will not tell you
21 any lies.
22 Q. In 1999 you said - that's your statement of the 1st of August,
23 page 2, paragraph 6 - that there were 1.200 people from the village and
24 refugees, that was a total. On the 14th of June you said at page --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The speakers are speaking
1 at the same time.
2 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. -- you said there were 2.000 people and now you say between 2.500
4 and 3.000 people. So could you please tell me what figure is correct,
5 1200, 2.000, or up to 3.000?
6 A. What I'm saying you now, that is, they were about 2- to 3.000.
7 Of course this is simply an estimate because I didn't count them. I have
8 forgotten about that part of my statement.
9 Q. Can you tell me -- very well. That's not so important after all.
10 Could you tell me, those women and children who were separated from the
11 men and who were told to head to Albania, did they actually go towards
13 A. They went until Ratkova village, and there they were stopped and
14 spent the night there.
15 Q. But did they go to Albania or did they go back and remain in
17 A. After three, four days they were allowed to go but -- to Albania,
18 but not that night. That night they spent the night in the open, in the
19 Ratkova village. And after two or three days, they went to Albania. On
20 the 1st, 2nd, 3rd of April the convoys of people headed towards Albania.
21 The bus came from Prizren to Rahovec and took them to the border.
22 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, but please tell me, you're talking about 4.200
23 German marks that the Serbs took. Who did they took that money from, who
24 gave them the money?
25 A. Yes, yes, I can tell you now. We had some money. They were sent
1 to us from Germany, Switzerland, to build the school. When the Serbs
2 came to our school, some came to us. That group, when it came to us, we
3 selected two, three of us who knew Serbian better and sent them to
4 negotiate with this group to ask them why they came to us.
5 And they said, We are your commanders. You should lift your
6 hands up. After that when they separated the families and ordered them
7 to go to Albania, Tahir gave this money to Haxhi Jemini, who on his part
8 gave the money to the policemen who put the money in his own pocket,
9 4.000, 2- or 400, I am not sure. Either 4.200 or 4.400, and then he
10 walked away. Then another group came and they again asked us for money.
11 And the person who spoke Serbian well told this second group that we gave
12 the money to this other person. And then he said, You gave the money to
13 this other person? Okay. I'll go and make sure that you did. If not,
14 you'll see what will happen to you. And then he said, Yes, he verified
15 what we told him, and then he said, Yes, what you told us is true. This
16 is what happened.
17 Q. So you said that Haxhi Jemini handed the money over to the
18 police, the money that he received from Tahir Krasniqi?
19 A. Tahir gave the money to Haxhi Jemini because he was older, and
20 then this person gave the money to the policeman. He translated the
21 amount in Serbian when they gave the money to this policeman.
22 Q. But could you just tell me, in your statement of the
23 1st of August, 1999, you say that the Serbs took the money, 4.200 German
24 marks from a refugee because Haxhi Jemini is he a refugee or what is he?
25 Is he a resident of Pusto Selo, could you just tell me that?
1 A. No, he's from Pastasel, that's not correct. The money belonged
2 to our village. It was not the money that belonged to the refugees.
3 Q. Very well. Mr. Krasniqi, your statement of the 15th -- in fact,
4 you say about a neighbour of yours, Hasan Krasniqi, that he worked in the
5 police -- in the police administration as a civilian. What happened with
6 Hasan Krasniqi, what was his fate? He is from your village?
7 A. He was not from my village. He was from Drenofc.
8 Q. [Previous translation continues]... he from --
9 A. He was from the village of Drenofc, not from my village.
10 Q. And do you know what happened to him? I'm talking about
11 Hasan Krasniqi, did he take part in any of these events?
12 A. I didn't see him there. I didn't see him there at all. I never
13 saw him in Pastasel. He lived in Rahovec.
14 Q. Thank you. Is your Serbian good?
15 A. No, I've forgotten it. It's been a long time that I've ever used
16 Serbian. I used it when I was a soldier, about 50 years ago, so I've
18 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, we have to go back to a part of the communication
19 between the soldiers or the police officers, whatever they were, where
20 you say that you heard - that's in paragraph 23 of your statement, let me
21 just check, the 2000 statement - you say:
22 "I heard them mention the word 'streljanje' execution by firing
23 squad over their two-way radios."
24 And then you say:
25 "I know that in Serbian that means execution."
1 Well, "streljanje," execution by firing squad; or "pogubljenje,"
3 A. That's -- I was there when I heard that, that they said that over
4 the radio. They were asking for money, and we said we didn't have any
5 money. And then they used this word, "streljanje." And then they
6 divided the group into different smaller groups, and the first group went
7 somewhere, and they were beaten and they were killed there. And only one
8 person in the first group survived.
9 In the second group, I was in that group; we went off by foot.
10 We were taken to a place and then they started beating us. The police
11 would just gesture to us to go in that direction.
12 Q. Tell me, you say that you've forgotten your Serbian. How were
13 you able to recognise that word that was used, execution by firing squad,
14 if you don't speak Serbian?
15 A. Everyone knows that word, "streljanje," everyone knows what it
16 means. We were all there. There were 160 people around there, and we
17 suspected that they were going to kill us. And when we heard the word
18 "streljanje" we knew what was going on, that they were going to kill us.
19 That was obvious. 160 people were there. I was not alone. We knew. We
20 all understood.
21 Q. Tell me, in paragraph 16 of the same statement you say that some
22 women were slapped around because they tried to hide their husbands. How
23 did the women try to hide their husbands? That's what I would like to
25 A. Yes, that's true, they tried to hide their husbands. Some --
1 some were ill, some were paralyzed, old, and they tried to save them, to
2 hide them. But they were stopped and they were caught and they took
3 everything from them, everything they could get, even the baby bottles,
4 the bottles from the babies they stole. Those who were unable, who were
5 disabled were to -- allowed to proceed with the women, whereas those who
6 were able-bodied men were stopped. So every woman who wanted to hide her
7 husband was slapped and told, Where are you taking these men? They have
8 to remain here. This is what happened.
9 Q. Therefore, they attempted to leave. Thank you, Mr. Krasniqi. I
10 will have no more questions of you.
11 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this concludes my
12 cross-examination of this witness.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Djordjevic.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you, too, to the
16 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. D'Ascoli may have a few more questions of you.
17 Ms. D'Ascoli, do you re-examine?
18 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yeah, only one question, Your Honours.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Go ahead, go ahead, please.
20 Re-examination by Ms. D'Ascoli:
21 Q. Mr. Krasniqi --
22 A. Go ahead, yes.
23 Q. -- only one brief question, and it is just to clarify one
24 thing --
25 A. Go ahead and ask your question --
1 Q. -- about which we spoke yesterday. Do you remember my learned
2 colleague from the Defence asked you about a certain part of your
3 statement that you gave to the Tribunal in the year 2000 and there was a
4 part in which the issue of the uniform, the green camouflage uniform and
5 the blue one, were raised.
6 Is it correct, Mr. Krasniqi, do you remember that in proofing did
7 you indicate -- did you indicate that you had -- in relation to that
8 paragraph, that you had trouble in understanding the meaning of the words
9 "green" and "blue" without seeing the colour? Do you remember that?
10 A. Yes, that's what I said. I can't really say yes or no to those
12 Q. Okay. Thank you very much.
13 MS. D'ASCOLI: I have no further questions, Your Honours.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Krasniqi, you will be pleased to know that
16 that concludes the questions for you. The Judges would like to thank you
17 for coming to The Hague and for the assistance that you have been able to
18 give to us. You are now free to go back to your normal activities, and a
19 court officer will assist you to leave the court. Thank you for your
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I'm very
22 grateful to you all for dealing with our problems. Thank you.
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Kravetz, is it, with the next witness?
25 MS. KRAVETZ: Yes, Your Honour, the next witness is
1 Mr. Lulzim Vejsa; and I believe he's ready.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
3 [The witness entered court]
4 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon, sir.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Would you please read aloud the affirmation that
7 is shown to you now.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will tell
9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 WITNESS: LULZIM VEJSA
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Please sit down.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Kravetz has some questions for you.
15 MS. KRAVETZ: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Examination by Ms. Kravetz:
17 Q. Good afternoon, sir, could you please state your full name for
18 the record.
19 A. Lulzim Vejsa.
20 Q. When and where were you born, Mr. Vejsa?
21 A. I was born in Gjakove on the 9th of May, 1965.
22 Q. In March 1999 where were you living, Mr. Vejsa?
23 A. I was living in Gjakove.
24 Q. Sir, did you provide a statement to the Office of the Prosecution
25 in April 1999 in relation to events that took place in your town of
1 Gjakove at the end of March/early April of that same year?
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 Q. Before coming to court today, did you have the opportunity to
4 review that statement?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. And having reviewed that statement, are you satisfied that the
7 information contained within the statement is true and accurate to the
8 best of your knowledge and belief?
9 A. Yes, I am.
10 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honours, I seek to tender this statement, the
11 65 ter 02350, and I ask that that be received.
12 JUDGE PARKER: This is tendered under 92 bis or ter, Ms. Kravetz?
13 MS. KRAVETZ: 92 bis as part of the --
14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
15 It will be received.
16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P978, Your Honours.
17 MS. KRAVETZ:
18 Q. Mr. Vejsa, did you previously testify before this Tribunal in the
19 case of Milutinovic et al. in September of 2006?
20 A. Yes, I did. Yes, I testified.
21 Q. Before coming to court today, did you have the opportunity to go
22 over your previous testimony with the assistance of a language assistant?
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 Q. And if today you were asked the same questions you were asked
25 when you testified in the Milutinovic case, would you provide the same
2 A. I think I would, yes.
3 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honours, I seek to tender this transcript,
4 it's 65 ter 05067, and I ask that that be received.
5 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P979, Your Honours.
7 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honours, there is one additional exhibit that
8 was an associated exhibit that was listed in our 92 bis motion for that
9 witness, 65 ter 05068, and it's a photo marked by the witness in the
10 Milutinovic case. I would just ask, Your Honours, for your guidance on
11 how to proceed regarding that photograph. Having recently reviewed it
12 with the Milutinovic transcript, it is not clear from the transcripts
13 what the different markings on the photograph reflect. During the course
14 of my examination today I would just like to ask the witness to explain
15 what the different markings reflect and not have him mark the photograph
16 again, but I don't know if Your Honours have a preference on how I should
17 proceed with regard to that photograph.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djordjevic.
20 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Briefly, I will agree with the
21 witness explaining on the photograph what it is that he marked, given
22 that he should confirm first and foremost that it was he who put those
23 markings on the photographs. If that precondition is met, I'm fully in
24 agreement with the procedure suggested.
25 JUDGE PARKER: The markings can be clarified, Ms. Kravetz.
1 MS. KRAVETZ: Thank you, Your Honour. I will do that later on in
2 the course of my examination.
3 I will now proceed to read the in-court summary for this witness.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
5 MS. KRAVETZ: The witness is from the town of Djakovica. He
6 states that when the NATO bombing began in 1999 Serb forces began burning
7 shops in the centre of Djakovica town.
8 The witness describes the killing of his family at his home on
9 157 Millosh Giliq Street, Djakovica town, on 2nd April, 1999. On the
10 night between 1 and 2nd April, 1999, Serb police and paramilitaries
11 knocked on his door. The witness and his brother-in-law escaped from the
12 house while the rest of his family remained in the basement of the house.
13 The witness decided to return home the next morning.
14 While walking home, he saw that Albanian houses in his
15 neighbourhood were burnt down; the houses belonging to Serbs were not.
16 He saw three policemen guarding his house. The house was completely
17 burnt. The witness then went to his aunt's house where he found out from
18 his aunt that the other 20 family members who had remained in the
19 basement had been killed and their bodies burnt. He names all 20
20 victims, which included his wife and five children. Only one boy,
21 Dren Caka, survived the massacre.
22 On the morning of 2nd April, the witness joined a convoy of about
23 7.000 Kosovo Albanian refugees leaving Djakovica town and headed to the
24 Albanian border. At a police check-point in the vicinity of the village
25 of Brekoc, police took away the refugees' identification documents. On
1 the way to the border, the refugees saw other burnt houses in the cities
2 and villages they passed.
3 That's the end of the in-court summary, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
5 MS. KRAVETZ:
6 Q. Mr. Vejsa, I have very few questions for you in relation to your
7 statement that you gave in 1999. I want to first take you to the events
8 that took place on 1st to 2nd April, 1999.
9 In your statement - and this is on the bottom of page 1, both in
10 the English and the B/C/S - you say that in your house on the night of
11 1st April 1999 there were about 24 people there. Could you tell us who
12 these 24 people were and why they were at your house.
13 A. That is true. There were 24 people in all, among whom myself, my
14 in-laws, and my family. And we hid; we were in the basement. There was
15 room for 21 people there. There was my family, my wife, five children;
16 my sister, her family; another relative with three children; cousins,
17 again with family; my uncle, who lived in another house, maternal uncle,
18 he was alone there. So there were 21 people in the basement.
19 Q. Why were all these 21 people in your basement?
20 A. We were at home all day, but at night we went down into the
21 basement for security reasons because there were security forces outside
22 on the loose. So for secure -- for our own personal security we hid in
23 the basement.
24 Q. And you say in your statement that since -- that's the same
25 paragraph, since NATO started to bomb, the males used to guard outside
1 for your own safety. Why is it that the males in this group that was at
2 your house felt it necessary to guard outside the house?
3 A. We had heard that in the neighbourhood of my wife's relatives,
4 all the people were forced out. And so we decided we would have to do
5 what we could to save the children and the women.
6 Q. And who had you heard this from, that in the neighbourhood of
7 your wife's relatives the people had been forced out?
8 A. I heard of this from my father-in-law, who came to take shelter
9 in our house. And there were other people with him, his wife and another
10 girl. There were not many Serbs in our neighbourhood --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Correction.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were many Serbs in our
13 neighbourhood, so we thought originally that we would be safe.
14 MS. KRAVETZ:
15 Q. Did your wife's relatives live in your same town of Gjakove?
16 A. Yes, in Gjakove.
17 Q. And when is it that they came to stay with you at your house?
18 A. They came -- I don't remember exactly, but I think a day before
19 the bombing started.
20 Q. And did your father-in-law tell you who was forcing people out in
21 the neighbourhood where he lived?
22 A. Yes, he did, he told me. He said it was the police.
23 Q. Now, moving on in your statement you say - and this is also on
24 the bottom of page 1, both in English and the B/C/S - you say that on the
25 night of 2nd of April at 12.15 Serb policemen and paramilitaries started
1 to knock on your door. Did -- are you aware or do you know whether any
2 Serb forces, be it policemen, paramilitaries, or another type of force,
3 went to -- on that night, to any of the houses of your neighbours on your
4 same street or did they only come to your house?
5 A. No, not only our house. Before they came to our house they had
6 knocked on the doors of other houses. And when they got to our house, we
7 had escaped. By that time several houses in the neighbourhood were on
8 fire, were being burnt down.
9 Q. And how do you know that before they came to your house these
10 forces had knocked on the doors of other houses?
11 A. My brother-in-law told me that. He had been out in the
12 courtyard, and he saw them; he saw the soldiers in the houses, and I was
13 with my father-in-law inside trying to sleep. And he woke us up and told
14 us to escape as quickly as we could because the police were coming.
15 Q. And why is it that you decided to escape?
16 A. Because we had heard, as I said earlier, we had heard that they
17 were going to kill all the men and they would just leave the women and
18 children, and for this reason we decided to flee. But in our case it was
19 exactly the opposite. It was the women and the children who suffered.
20 Q. Who is it that had told you that these forces were going to kill
21 all the men? Who had told you that?
22 A. My brother-in-law and my father-in-law told me two or three days
23 earlier. He came around and told me what was going on.
24 Q. What do you mean --
25 A. Because the same thing had happened in their neighbourhood a
1 couple of days earlier.
2 Q. Can you explain what you mean when you say he told you what was
3 going on, that the same thing had happened in their neighbourhood. What
4 exactly is it that these relatives told you was happening?
5 A. He told me that in their neighbourhood the women and children
6 were left alone to go, and they were supposed to go to Albania, and the
7 men were executed.
8 Q. And which neighbourhood is it that these two male relatives of
9 yours were living before they came to your house?
10 A. I don't remember the name of the neighbourhood, but it was quite
11 a ways away, about 700 metres from our house. I don't remember the name
12 of the neighbourhood, though.
13 Q. That's fine. Sir, you explain in your statement that you left
14 the house with your brother-in-law and that you returned the next
15 morning. And you say - and this is the third paragraph on page 2 of the
16 B/C/S and second paragraph in the English on page 3 - you say that you
17 returned and that you saw three policemen guarding your house.
18 A. Yes, that's true.
19 Q. Did you know those persons whom you saw guarding your house,
20 these three policemen?
21 A. Yes, I knew them. They were people who lived in my
23 Q. Do you recall the names of these three policemen you saw outside
24 your house?
25 A. I remember the first names but not the family names. They were
1 two brothers and a third person, Ljubisa was the first one; the second
2 was Nenad, who was the brother of Ljubisa; and the third one was Novica.
3 Q. And do you recall how these persons who you saw outside your
4 house whose names you've just given were dressed that morning?
5 A. Yes, I remember. They were in reservist uniforms, and they were
6 indeed reservists.
7 Q. What do you mean when you say that they were in reservist
8 uniforms? How was this different from the regular uniform worn by
9 policemen, if you know?
10 A. Yes, the uniforms were different. How can I explain it? They
11 were in a different colour I think, slightly different in the colour.
12 Q. And what was the colour of the uniforms of regular policemen?
13 A. They were blue, sort of a dark blue.
14 Q. And what was the colour of these three men whom you saw and whom
15 you referred to as policemen who you saw outside your house?
16 A. They were wearing the same colour blue, police colour.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honours, just a question, I'm not really sure
19 since we're sitting on a different schedule today when's the break.
20 JUDGE PARKER: We'll go until 20 minutes to the hour.
21 MS. KRAVETZ: Okay. That's fine. Thank you.
22 Q. Apart from there being a slight difference in the colour that
23 you've said between the uniforms of reservists and regular police, was
24 there anything different that you saw in the uniforms of these three men,
25 if you recall?
1 A. There wasn't any other difference, only that the regular
2 policemen had vests. That would be the only difference that I can think
4 Q. Thank you. Now, moving on back to your statement, you say that
5 you returned to your house, you saw these policemen, and that you went to
6 your aunt's house and she told you what had happened to your family
7 members. And you say - and this is page 2, paragraph 4 of the B/C/S and
8 third full paragraph, I believe, in -- no, paragraph 4 in the English and
9 third full paragraph in the B/C/S - you say that your father-in-law and
10 your brother-in-law went to the basement to see what had happened and
11 that they could not find any dead bodies. Can you tell us what happened
12 to the bodies of the persons who had been in the basement?
13 A. These victims had been first killed and then completely burned or
14 charred. I simply couldn't believe that that had just happened, and I
15 didn't find the force in me to go there and check for myself. So they
16 went to check, and they didn't find any body in one piece. They only
17 found some pieces of flesh.
18 Q. Okay. You say in your statement that that same morning, around
19 9.00 or 9 .30 a.m., you saw about 7-, or 8.000 Albanian people from your
20 neighbourhood and they were coming towards your street and that you and
21 your male relatives decided to join the crowd. Why is it that you
22 decided to join this crowd of 7-, or 8.000 people whom you saw coming
23 down your street?
24 A. There was no one left. We didn't want to be the only ones who
25 had remained behind. That's why we decided to join this group.
1 Q. Where were these 7-, or 8.000 people coming from?
2 A. They were coming from the back part of the neighbourhood. We saw
3 them as they passed by our gate, and we joined them. They were going
4 towards Albania.
5 Q. Did you see any of your Albanian neighbours who lived on your
6 street among -- in this crowd of 7-, or 8.000?
7 A. Yes, I did see many of them.
8 Q. You say in your statement that you left the town, and before you
9 entered the village of Brekoc - and this is at the bottom of page 3, I
10 believe, both in the English and the B/C/S - there was a check-point, a
11 police check-point, and police in blue uniforms took all your documents
12 and put them in a box. Where exactly is the village of Brekoc in
13 relation to Djakovica town, how far is it from the town?
14 A. I would say one and a half to 2 kilometres far from the town.
15 The army barracks were there, and that's where Brekoc village begins.
16 And there was the check-point, the police check-point, where they seized
17 everything of us.
18 Q. You referred to the army barracks being there. Do you know what
19 was the name of the locality where the army barracks was located?
20 A. I don't know the name, but I know that location was adjacent to
21 Brekoc village. It's at the exit of Gjakove at a place called
22 Ura e Tabakut or Tabaku Bridge.
23 Q. Now, you've mentioned a bridge. How far was the check-point from
24 the bridge that you've mentioned, the Tabaku Bridge?
25 A. Very close, maybe a maximum of 100 metres apart. That's where
1 the check-point was on the side of Brekoc.
2 Q. And when one is leaving Gjakove, does one have to go over this
3 bridge that you've mentioned, the Tabaku Bridge?
4 A. Yes, that's correct, you have to go over it. That's where the
5 town of Gjakove ends and the adjacent villages begin.
6 Q. Now, do you recall exactly what the policemen at this check-point
7 told you when you got there? What is it that they said to your group?
8 A. Yes, I remember. They asked us to produce everything we had on
9 us, personal documents. There was a box. We were supposed to throw in
10 everything. Of course that's what we did. I personally had my driver's
11 licence on me and my ID card.
12 Q. And did you put your driver's licence and your ID card in that
14 A. Yes, as did the others.
15 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honours, I see it's time for the break.
16 JUDGE PARKER: We must have a break now for the tapes to be
17 rewound. We continue again in half an hour at ten past 4.00. The court
18 officer will assist you during the break. We now adjourn.
19 --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 4.13 p.m.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Kravetz.
22 MS. KRAVETZ: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 I would now like to have Exhibit 65 ter 05068 up on the screen.
24 Is that now up? I don't have anything on my screen.
25 Q. Sir, do you see -- do you have a photograph up on the screen
1 before you?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. Do you recognise this photograph?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. Can you tell me what is depicted in the photograph?
6 A. Yes, this photo depicts my neighbourhood, the place I used to
7 live in. Here -- in this place here is my house.
8 Q. Sir, before you get to that, we see that there are a number of
9 markings already on the photograph. Did you make those markings?
10 A. Yes, I did them.
11 Q. I will ask you not -- for the time being not to make any further
12 markings on the photograph. I just would like for you to explain what
13 the different numbers depict. And if we could start with number 1, and
14 if you could tell us what that is.
15 A. Yes, yes. Number 1 shows the place where my house was located.
16 Number 2 is again my house, but it used to be a smaller one.
17 Q. Earlier in your evidence you had spoken about your family staying
18 in a basement. Is that basement at either one of these locations, number
19 1 or 2, or was that elsewhere?
20 A. Yes, the basement is at this facility here, the first building.
21 Q. We can't see when you point at the screen. If you could just
22 tell us what number it is.
23 A. There was a shop on the top floor.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Are you indicating the -- what appears to be new
25 structure between numbers 1 and 2?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The basement is between 1 and 2. I
2 wasn't asked this question before. It is here.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
4 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honours, if it clarifies, I can have the
5 witness mark it, but it --
6 JUDGE PARKER: No, we can see 1 and 2, and there's a new
7 structure between them.
8 MS. KRAVETZ: Okay. That's fine.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
10 MS. KRAVETZ:
11 Q. Can we now move to number 3, what does that depict?
12 A. Building number 3 belongs to a Serb neighbour. You can't see it
13 here, but it used to be nearby.
14 Q. Do you recall the name of that Serb neighbour whose house you've
15 marked as number 3?
16 A. Yes, I do. It was the house of that policeman, Ljubisa and his
17 brother, of course with their family.
18 Q. You've marked a house with number 4. Can you tell us what that
20 A. Number 4 is the house of another Serb neighbour. Novak Pitulic
21 was his name.
22 Q. And could you tell us who he was, Novak Pitulic?
23 A. He was the highest-ranking policeman at that time.
24 Q. And that would be the highest-ranking policeman in your town?
25 A. Yes, yes.
1 Q. Now, you've marked 5, 6, and 7 also on this photograph. Can you
2 tell us what these numbers stand for?
3 A. Number 5, 6, and 7 respectively mark the houses of my neighbours
4 and these houses were burned down, and these houses belonged to
6 Q. Now, what does number 8 stand for?
7 A. Number 8 stands for the house of my aunt.
8 Q. And is this the same aunt that you spoke about earlier who told
9 you what had happened to your family in the basement or is this a
10 different relative?
11 A. Yes, this is the aunt I mentioned.
12 Q. You spoke about seeing three policemen in front of your house.
13 Is that indicated anywhere on the photograph?
14 A. Yes, yes. It is indicated here.
15 Q. And how have you indicated that?
16 A. No, there is no marking because I wasn't asked to mark that
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honours, I seek to tender this exhibit into
20 evidence, this is 05068.
21 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P980, Your Honours.
23 MS. KRAVETZ: Yeah, there's a big line there I see.
24 Your Honours, I would like to ask the witness to mark on this
25 photograph just to indicate the location where he saw the three
1 policemen. And I would just use this same photograph if that's okay with
2 Your Honours not to have a different one called up.
3 Q. Sir, are you able to indicate on this photograph where you saw
4 the three policemen standing when you returned on the morning of 2 April?
5 A. Yes, I am. In this photo here you mean?
6 Q. Yes. If you could just indicate that with an X where you saw the
7 police --
8 A. One was in front of the door, here; the other was standing in
9 front of this store here; and the third was standing at the corner, here.
10 MS. KRAVETZ: Just for the record the witness has made three
11 markings, one above number 5; the second one above number 6; and the
12 third one above number 7. And I would ask that this photograph with
13 these three markings be received.
14 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P981, Your Honours.
16 MS. KRAVETZ:
17 Q. Sir, we see on this photograph that a number of houses have no
18 roof and have been burnt down. From what you remember, is this what your
19 neighbourhood looked like when you left the neighbourhood on the morning
20 of 2 April and headed out of Djakovica?
21 A. Yes, this is what it looked like.
22 Q. Now, sir, how far was the house where you lived from the old town
23 of Djakovica or the historic centre of Djakovica?
24 A. It was about 500 metres.
25 Q. And from what you remember from when the NATO bombing started
1 until you left Djakovica town, which you've told us was on 2nd April, do
2 you recall whether at any time NATO bombed the old town of Djakovica, the
3 historic centre?
4 A. I recall only the first night, that of 24th of March. There was
5 an explosion, a huge explosion. I simply heard it. At that moment, we
6 all went to the basement. On the next day we heard that they had bombed
7 the barracks in Gjakove.
8 Q. And were these barracks located in the historic centre of Gjakova
10 A. Not in that neighbourhood. One was near our house some 3-, 400
11 metres at the bus station. The other one was located near Brekoc village
12 at the exit of Gjakove. And this barracks was bombed, people said, by
14 Q. When you say "this barracks was bombed," are you talking about
15 the one near Brekoc or the one near the bus station?
16 A. The one at Brekoc.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honours, I have no further questions for this
19 witness at this stage.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
21 Mr. Djordjevic.
22 Cross-examination by Mr. Djordjevic:
23 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Vejsa. My name is
24 Dragoljub Djordjevic, and I am the Defence counsel for the accused in
25 this case. I will be asking you just a few brief questions, of course,
1 in an effort like everybody else here to learn as much as we can to make
2 sure that justice is served. First of all, I would like to say on my own
3 behalf how sorry I am for this terrible tragedy that you have experienced
4 in your life. I am saying this as a human being, not as a Defence
5 counsel or in any other capacity. But unfortunately I will have to ask
6 you some questions just as my learned friend Ms. Kravetz did.
7 Mr. Vejsa, I would just like to know very briefly on the basis of
8 what you've told us so far, what time was it when the knocking was heard
9 on the gate to your house? I assume that this was the gate to the yard
10 of your house; right?
11 A. We heard the knock after midnight of the 1st of April. Maybe it
12 was 15 past.
13 Q. I would now like to ask you whether you would agree with me that
14 according to the plan about the application of measures for the state of
15 an imminent threat of war, is it correct that in your town after 1900
16 hours the electricity was cut off and there was a blackout precisely
17 because of the NATO air-strikes? Can we agree on that?
18 A. That's correct that after 7.00 or 8.00 there was no electricity.
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Vejsa. That night when you fled, would you agree
20 with me that when you left, the two of you together - and I believe that
21 you were joined later by your father-in-law if I'm not mistaken - but
22 would you agree with me that in fact you didn't see the people who
23 knocked on your door, and you don't know who these people actually were?
24 When I'm saying that I mean their identity, whether they were your
25 neighbours or something like that?
1 A. It is correct, but these people were seen by my brother-in-law
2 who was standing guard outside the house at that time, and he saw them
3 come. He came and told me and my father-in-law about that. My
4 father-in-law remained there watching them until they broke down the
5 door, and then they started firing their automatic rifles in the
6 direction of the house. And these things were all told to me by my
7 father-in-law and my brother-in-law.
8 Q. Did they tell you what these people looked like? Did they tell
9 you that they knew them or anything of the sort?
10 A. They didn't recognise them because they were wearing masks on
11 their faces. So they couldn't recognise who they were. And after seeing
12 them, they left.
13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Vejsa. Now tell me, do you know who
14 Radovan Zlatkovic is?
15 A. No, I do not.
16 Q. Are you sure that the address of the Novak Pitulic's house is in
17 Milos Gilic Street and not in Predrag Rakovic Street, Pitulic was the
18 chief of the police?
19 A. This house belonged to the in-laws of this person. We knew Lila,
20 his wife. Novak stayed there, but his house was elsewhere.
21 Q. Thank you. Now it's much clearer. And will you agree with me
22 that Novak Pitulic was in fact a chief of the -- chief of a shift or head
23 of a shift in the duty service in the police station in your town, not of
24 the police; but if you don't know, it's fine.
25 A. I don't know that.
1 Q. Very well. As regards the three police officers -- well, you
2 made the markings above numbers 5, 6, and 7. But when you were
3 examined - the transcript from the Milutinovic trial is already in
4 evidence, so I won't be tendering anything. But at page 4081, line 7,
5 you described the uniforms of the police officers, and you described them
6 as normal, blue police uniforms without any camouflage pattern, so your
7 typical police uniform in other words.
8 A. Yes, without camouflage pattern.
9 Q. Thank you. Do you have any knowledge of the fact that only
10 members of the volunteer fire brigade actually wore that type of uniform?
11 Do you know something about that or do you not know anything?
12 A. I know very little, but I know and it is clear to me that the
13 uniforms they wore were the uniforms of the reservists, police
15 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, tell me -- well, we're getting to the end
16 of my cross-examination. At Milutinovic transcript at page 4086 you
17 mentioned the brothers Ljubisa and Dragan and some other guy by the name
18 of Novica - and you say you don't know the last name, probably you've
19 forgotten it in the meantime - but at the time you said that Ljubisa and
20 Dragan were actually called Racevic, that it was their last name. Will
21 you agree with me that that was their last name?
22 A. I don't recall their last name, really I don't. I do remember
23 their first names, though.
24 Q. Very well. You mentioned a policeman by the name of Ljubisa and
25 you say that his house was marked on the image that we've just lost from
1 our screen, it's marked with number 3. So is that the same Ljubisa or
2 not? I'm sure that you know what you're talking about.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Is that his house? Very well. Thank you. In 2006 when you gave
5 the statement, or rather, when you testified in the Milutinovic case, you
6 said that as for the perpetrators who were involved in the crime you
7 learnt about them from Sami Parashumti, a neighbours of yours; is that
9 A. No, I didn't learn about them from him. I didn't mention
10 Sami Parashumti in that context.
11 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, if we could please have a reference
12 for the passage my learned colleague is referring to from the Milutinovic
13 transcript. Thank you.
14 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] My learned friend, Ms. Kravetz,
15 of course. That's the Milutinovic transcript 4086, lines 22 through 24;
16 and my question related to that. So we now have the answer, and it's now
17 immaterial because he says that he learned about that from his next-door
18 neighbour. And now I'm asking who is the next-door neighbour. So that
19 was not Sami Parashumti.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it's not Sami Parashumti, it's
21 Naser Rudi, it's this neighbour of mine.
22 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. Vejsa, thank you very much.
24 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't have any
25 further questions for this witness.
1 Q. And once again I'm deeply sorry for what you've been through.
2 Thank you very much.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Djordjevic.
4 Ms. Kravetz.
5 MS. KRAVETZ: I don't have any questions in re-examination,
6 Your Honour. Thank you.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE PARKER: You'll be pleased to know, Mr. Vejsa, that that
9 concludes the questions for you. The Chamber would like to thank you for
10 your attendance here in The Hague, for the help that you've been able to
11 give us, and for the care with which you've answered questions. You may,
12 of course, return now to your normal activities, and a court officer will
13 show you out. Thank you indeed.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
15 [The witness withdrew]
16 JUDGE PARKER: You were earlier, Mr. Djordjevic, going to provide
17 a reference to a statement to assist Ms. D'Ascoli. Have you been able to
18 turn that up yet? It's dealing with the previous witness.
19 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I've already done
20 that. You will find it in the transcript when I was discussing the
21 patches. I think it is page 8 of the 2000 statement; I think it is
22 paragraph 50 something. I have provided the reference, and I have
23 nothing further to add. There was a portion from the 1999 statement, but
24 that is not relevant anymore.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for bringing me up-to-date,
1 Mr. Djordjevic. Yes.
2 20 minutes to 5.00. We must finish by 5.00.
3 Ms. Kravetz, is there a point in starting a new witness or not?
4 MS. KRAVETZ: No, Your Honour, and I was just going to point out
5 that Mr. Brunborg is in fact not in the building I am told. He was not
6 ready for today. We had anticipated he would start tomorrow morning. We
7 thought these two witnesses would take the entire session today.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Well, it may be the sight of things to come,
9 Ms. Kravetz. We will therefore adjourn tonight, and we continue tomorrow
10 morning at 9.00.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.41 p.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 16th day of
13 June, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.