Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6106

 1                           Tuesday, 16 June 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 5             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I address you

 6     before the witness enters?

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

 8             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  [Interpretation] Before we begin with today's

 9     testimony, I wanted to say something concerning the motion to have

10     Mr. Krasniqi's statement put into evidence on the 21st of May, and the

11     August statement of 1999.  I wanted to move to have that admitted, given

12     that on the 21st of May, 2008, in paragraph 5, he said:

13             "On the 1st of August, 1999, an investigator of the international

14     Tribunal interviewed me in German.  It was translated into Albanian but

15     drafted in German.  I did not sign it because the investigator didn't ask

16     me to."

17             In the paragraph 6, he says:

18             "I confirm that the number --

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Would Mr. Djordjevic kindly repeat the number,

20     and he is reading too fast.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic, you've got ahead of the

22     translators, the interpreters, you are reading too quickly.

23             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  Okay.  Thank you.  [Interpretation] In paragraph

24     6 he says:

25             "I confirm that the document ERN number K013-6454, K013-6459 is

Page 6107

 1     the statement I provide to the investigator of the Tribunal who spoke

 2     German on the 1st of August, 1999."

 3             In paragraph 7 he says:

 4             "I consent to both statements being used in the proceedings

 5     against Vlastimir Djordjevic at the ICTY."

 6             When we compare the ERN numbers stated in the statements signed

 7     by the witness and the ERN numbers from the statement of the

 8     1st of August, 1999, shown to the witness concerning which questions were

 9     asked of him, it is clear that it is the same statement.  Therefore, I

10     would still seek to tender that that statement be admitted into evidence.

11             Thank you very much, Your Honour.

12             The MFI numbers are D225 and D226.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Is it convenient at this point,

14     Ms. Kravetz, to speak to that motion or not?

15             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, Ms. D'Ascoli was the attorney dealing

16     with this witness, so I'm unable to providing any assistance.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  You were passing her the notes.

18             MS. KRAVETZ:  Yes, I was here, that is true, but I would have to

19     consult with her on this matter.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Very good.

21             MS. KRAVETZ:  I can address it after the next break.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  We will deal with it a little later

23     then.  Perhaps if the witness is waiting.

24                           [The witness entered court]

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning, sir.

Page 6108

 1             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Would you please read aloud the affirmation that

 3     is shown to you now.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  I solemnly declare that I will speak the

 5     truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 6                           WITNESS:  HELGE BRUNBORG

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down.

 8             Now, I believe Ms. Kravetz has some questions for you.

 9             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10                           Examination by Ms. Kravetz:

11        Q.   Good morning, Witness.  Could you please state your full name for

12     the record.

13        A.   My full name is Helge, first name; and Brunborg, last name,

14     spelled B-r-u-n-b-o-r-g.

15        Q.   Dr. Brunborg, what are you by profession?

16        A.   I'm trained as an economist and demographer, and I work as a

17     demographer mostly in Statistics Norway currently.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Your CV is 65 ter 02503 which is dated November 2003.

19     And the document speaks for itself, so we are not going to go through in

20     detail today in court.  But I would just like to ask you if there are any

21     updates that you would like to make to your CV, any current projects that

22     you are involved in that you would like to mention?

23        A.   I don't -- remember exactly what the 2003 CV said but since then

24     I've written extensively and also on subjects related to conflict, the

25     area -- demography of armed conflict is something that I've done quite a

Page 6109

 1     lot of work on.

 2        Q.   And you told us that you are currently employed in

 3     Statistics Norway.  What is your position there?

 4        A.   That is correct.  My position is -- I'm in -- to be in charge of

 5     population projections, and a large survey on -- called generations and

 6     gender survey.  In addition to doing analyses on Norwegian and

 7     international population matters.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honours, the 65 ter of the CV, curriculum

10     vitae, is 02503, and I seek to tender that at this stage.  I will not ask

11     further questions on than matter.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P982, Your Honours.

14             MS. KRAVETZ:

15        Q.   Dr. Brunborg, I understand that in 2002 you were asked by the

16     Office of the Prosecution to prepare an expert report on the size and

17     ethnic composition of the population in Kosovo; is that correct?

18        A.   That is correct.

19        Q.   Now, I understand that you have recently reviewed your report in

20     some detail and you've identified some clerical mistakes that you wish to

21     have corrected today in court just to facilitate the reading of the

22     Judges of this report?

23        A.   That is correct.  I apologise for the errors, there are many

24     numbers in the report, and all these are -- most of these errors are very

25     obvious, but we should nevertheless correct them.

Page 6110

 1        Q.   Sir, just to proceed efficiently through these clerical mistakes,

 2     what I propose to do is I'll just read the correction that you would like

 3     made and just ask you to confirm whether that is correct.  Okay?

 4             Now, on page 1, paragraph 5, lines 2 and 3 of your report

 5     currently read:

 6             "... and a de facto population of 2.166 million during the

 7     relevant period."

 8             I understand that the number given there should be corrected to

 9     "2.116 million during the relevant period."

10        A.   That's correct.

11        Q.   Now, on page 2, paragraph 2, line 1, currently reads:

12             "The de facto estimates for 1997 and 1998."  And there are two

13     numbers that are give there.  I understand that you want this corrected

14     to indicate this -- that the year estimate for 1997, 2.188 million (FSO),

15     and the de facto estimate for 1998, 2.044 million to 2.131 million?

16        A.   That's correct.

17        Q.   The same page on paragraph 4, line 1, currently reads:

18             "... that the Kosovo population in 1997 was 2.2 million."

19             I understand that the year there in that sentence should be

20     "1995"?

21        A.   That's correct.

22        Q.   Now, page 2, paragraph 5, lines 2 and 3, read:

23             "... this figure is very close to the FSO de jure mid-year

24     estimate for 1998 ..."  and there's a number given there of "2.220.000,"

25     and I understand that this figure should actually be "2.222.000"?

Page 6111

 1        A.   That is correct.

 2        Q.   Now, page 8, footnote 13, the last line of that footnote has a

 3     reference to "see table 1," and I understand that that actually should be

 4     a reference to "see table 2"?

 5        A.   Yes, correct.

 6        Q.   Page 13 at the bottom, you indicated that the number for -- the

 7     estimate for 1998b should actually be 1.378.980?

 8        A.   That is correct.

 9        Q.   And the final correction, and I understand it's on page 14,

10     paragraph 3, line 3 and 4, which currently read:

11             "This difference is very large, 758.000."  And I understand this

12     figure should actually be "750.000."

13        A.   That's correct.

14        Q.   Greater than in the previous years.  Thank you.

15             So these are all the corrections that you -- clerical mistakes

16     that you wish to correct in your report?

17        A.   That's correct.

18             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honours, I will get back to.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Could you please make breaks between questions

20     and answers, it's very difficult for the interpreters.

21             MS. KRAVETZ:  My apologies for that.

22        Q.   Since we are speaking the same language today, I would just ask

23     you to wait until the cursor stops on the screen before you -- before

24     providing your answer.

25             Your Honours, I'm going to get back to this report later on in my

Page 6112

 1     examination, but at this stage I seek to tender it into evidence.  It's

 2     01960 is the 65 ter number.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  The report will be received.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P983, Your Honours.

 5             MS. KRAVETZ:

 6        Q.   Sir, did you also testify with regard to this report that you

 7     prepared for the Office of the Prosecution in the case of

 8     Milutinovic et al. in November of 2006?

 9        A.   That is correct.

10        Q.   And before coming to court today, did you have the opportunity to

11     go through the transcript of your testimony in that case?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Having reviewed your testimony, if today you were asked the same

14     questions that you were asked during your testimony in the Milutinovic

15     case, would you provide the same answers?

16        A.   Yes, certainly.  I have not become aware of any new information

17     for the period that we are covering in this report.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honours, the 65 ter of the Milutinovic

20     transcript is 05334, and I seek to tender that at this stage.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P984, Your Honours.

23             MS. KRAVETZ:

24        Q.   Sir, if we could now go back to the main report that you

25     prepared.  This is your 2002 report.  And if you could just very briefly

Page 6113

 1     explain to the Chamber what was the purpose of this report and the

 2     mandate that you were given by the Office of the Prosecution when you

 3     were asked to prepare it?

 4        A.   I was asked by the Office of the Prosecutor to prepare a report

 5     on the size of the population of Kosovo and the ethnic composition of

 6     this population before the conflict in 1998/1999.  So I looked up --

 7     searched for all kinds of relevant information to do that, and I put this

 8     information together and wrote this report, assembled the population

 9     figures in graphs and tables that -- throughout this report, and wrote a

10     conclusion.

11        Q.   And in summary, what were your conclusions as to the ethnic

12     composition and size of the population in Kosovo during this period?

13        A.   During this period the population grew until -- to about

14     2.1 million before the conflict started.  That is in 1998.  And of the

15     total population, Albanians constituted about 83 per cent, Serbs about

16     10 per cent, and others about 7 per cent.  That is the main finding.

17        Q.   Now, in your report you set out the sources of -- source

18     materials that you used in preparing your report, and these were also

19     discussed during your previous testimony in the Milutinovic case.  And

20     you -- in your report you have a section, section 3, which refers to the

21     problems in obtaining population estimates.

22             Could you please elaborate on that and explain to the Judges what

23     were the main problems you had in obtaining population estimates when

24     preparing your report?

25        A.   The main problem is a lack of good migration data I would say.

Page 6114

 1     Births and deaths are recorded regularly, and there are also censuses

 2     every ten years; but lack of good migration data is a problem.  Another

 3     problem is the difference between de facto and de jure population,

 4     de facto is the actual population, the residents in a country; whereas

 5     de jure includes those that normally live there or usual residents.  And

 6     it is not always clear whether the data statistics are given for the

 7     de facto or de jure.  And censuses may sometimes ask de jure and

 8     sometimes de facto populations, so you have to be careful when looking at

 9     the results of a census and other population information.

10        Q.   And were you able to obtain a copy of a census that was up to

11     date in order to be able to prepare your report and estimate the size of

12     the population in Kosovo during the period that you were concerned with?

13        A.   Yes.  I've looked at the information from the Belgrade Institute

14     of Statistics in explaining, defining the terms, census terms, and

15     concepts.  And looked at different censuses, including the 1991 census

16     for which there is a very large problem, which I did not mention yet, and

17     that is that the Albanians, Albania population of Kosovo boycotted the

18     census in 1991.

19             So the statistical office in Belgrade estimated the population of

20     Albanians in each village and municipality in 1991 by projecting the

21     population from the -- in 1981 census ten years forwards in time on the

22     basis of assumed rates of births, deaths, and migration.

23        Q.   And based on your experience in this field, how reliable are

24     those numbers contained in the 1991 census?

25        A.   They look pretty reliable because they are quite consistent with

Page 6115

 1     other estimates, but of course a headcount would have been more reliable,

 2     but I think they did as good job as they could do.

 3        Q.   Now, when I was asking you about the main problems you had in

 4     obtaining population estimates, you said that the main problem is lack of

 5     good migration data.  Why does one have to look at migration data when

 6     dealing with Kosovo?

 7        A.   Well, one reason is that 1991 census was based on estimates and

 8     we do not have true or real figures for the migration in between, but

 9     there were some -- the Belgrade office made some estimates on that.  And

10     after 1991 there's also been -- difficult -- it was a difficult period

11     for Kosovo, and there were flows into and out of Kosovo.  And we do not

12     know the -- do not know the exact figures for migration for that period,

13     from 1991 to 1998 especially.

14        Q.   And what method did you use to obtain data on outgoing migration

15     from Kosovo in order to prepare your report?

16        A.   First -- I should pause.  Sorry.  First, I looked at the

17     Statistical Institute of Belgrade estimates of my migration, they have

18     given estimates for each ten-year period prior to 1991.  They also made

19     projections for the period after 1991.

20             And secondly, I looked at the survey conducted by several

21     organisations in 1999 and 2000 where they asked for each selected

22     household, whether household members had been absent, some -- or anybody

23     had left, and if they had returned or not.  And they asked when they

24     left, and when they returned, if they did.  And on that basis, you could

25     estimate the out-migration and, in fact, also in-migration from Kosovo in

Page 6116

 1     the previous 12 months, previous 13 months actually.

 2        Q.   Now, you said that you referred to the survey conducted by

 3     several organisations.  Can you provide more detail as to who conducted

 4     these surveys and when they were carried out?

 5        A.   The survey was in charge -- there were French demographers from

 6     the University of Bordeaux, and it was funded by UNFPA, United Nations

 7     Population Fund.  And IOM, which is the International Organization for

 8     Migration.  And conducted -- the actual interviews were conducted by

 9     people from the statistical institutes of Kosovo under supervision of the

10     French demographers and IOM.

11        Q.   And do you have any information as to how that survey was carried

12     out on the ground?

13        A.   Yes, they sampled first, the sample areas, municipalities, and

14     then they sampled smaller areas within those; and then they interviewed

15     all household members in all households in a small area.  It's a

16     three-stage stamping procedure, as you know.  And then they went -- the

17     interviewers went around to all those households and interviewed them on

18     the basis of a questionnaire that had been developed.

19        Q.   And how were these French demographers able to obtain a

20     representative sample when conducting this survey in order to have

21     reliable data?

22        A.   They drew randomly these samples.  I don't recall now exactly the

23     number of areas, but I think there were 30, 40 areas for all of Kosovo;

24     and they drew samples for both urban and rural areas separately.  And it

25     is a probability sample where about the approximately 2.5 per cent of the

Page 6117

 1     population was covered by these households.  So it looks to be comparable

 2     or in line with normal standards and sampling theory.

 3        Q.   Okay.  I would like now to look at your report on page 10 both in

 4     the English and B/C/S versions.  We have a figure 1.

 5             MS. KRAVETZ:  If we could have that up on the screen.

 6        Q.   And it refers to the population of Kosovo by ethnicity and from

 7     the -- and covers the period 1948 to 1991.  Could you comment on -- do

 8     you have that up?

 9        A.   Not yet.  Now I see the first, page but you said it was page 10.

10     So if it could be moved there, please.  Yes, I now see it.

11        Q.   Could you please provide your comments on this figure that we

12     have up on the screen, figure 1?

13        A.   It gives -- it shows two things:  It shows the total population

14     which has been growing very fast after 1948, more than doubling.  And it

15     also shows the proportion in the three major groups, Albanian, Serbs and

16     others.  Albanians have been growing very fast, others also; whereas the

17     proportional and also number of Serbs have been fluctuating more with --

18     it seems like the highest number was in 1961 and it has -- 1971 actually,

19     and it has declined since then.

20        Q.   Okay.  And during which period do you see the major growth in the

21     Albanian population based on this figure?

22        A.   Mostly in -- after 1971.  After 1961, actually.  Throughout the

23     period the growth rate has been almost 3 per cent, which is a high growth

24     rate.  3 per cent per year of the Albanian population.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 6118

 1             MS. KRAVETZ:  If we could now move to figure 2, which is on page

 2     14 of the English and page 15 of the B/C/S.

 3        Q.   And this is a figure on the total population of Kosovo based on

 4     different sources, and I would just ask you again if you could explain to

 5     the Judges what is depicted here in this figure.

 6        A.   In this figure I've put together all the information I was able

 7     to collect from official, and then unofficial sources.  Most of them are

 8     de jure figures of the total population from the Federal Statistical

 9     Institute in Belgrade.  There are also some de facto estimates which are

10     -- or de facto numbers, which are lower.

11             And there are three estimates that sort of stand out compared to

12     the others.  One is the Federal Secretariat of Information, estimate for

13     1998.

14             I think -- okay.  I thought that should be for 1995.  If I may

15     look at the previous page.  Excuse me.  No, it is for 1998.

16             The point is that that is much lower than the others, and it is

17     not consistent with this time series.  I've looked at this -- at the

18     publication, but I did not find any source of this number where they

19     arrive the data from, method of collecting the data, and there's no

20     explanation.  So it is hard to believe that piece of information.

21             And the other -- then there's another estimate for 1995, that was

22     the reason of my confusion, by Islami, which is much higher than the

23     others, although not as much different from the main trend as the

24     previous figure, which seems to be a bit too high, 2.2 million for 1995.

25             Then there is the Blayo et al estimate for 1998 which is

Page 6119

 1     bracketed.  It's an interval.  And that is based on the survey that I

 2     just talked about.  It is -- an interval is given because its based on a

 3     survey, and as we know there are uncertainty in all sample surveys so

 4     that's why they have estimated a confidence interval.

 5             Finally there is an UNHCR estimate headcount so-called for 1998,

 6     which is also consistent with the other figures.

 7        Q.   You mentioned a UNHCR estimate for 1998, could you provide us

 8     some information as to how that estimate was carried out?

 9        A.   They needed an estimate of the population.  So actually what they

10     did is to project the 1991 population forward from 1991 to 1998.  Take

11     both growth rates in the previous ten-year period into consideration but

12     also the proportion of bi-ethnicity in each village.  So they did it by

13     village level.

14        Q.   And again based on your experience in the field, how reliable are

15     the numbers provided by UNHCR for this period, based on this projection

16     from the 1991 population census?

17        A.   I think it is the best that you could get, and it is pretty

18     reliable.  How reliable it is, we will never know.  But we should know it

19     is entirely consistent with other estimates both by the statistical

20     office in Belgrade and the Blayo et al estimates.

21        Q.   Now I would ask you to turn to page 16.  This is figure 4.  And

22     in the B/C/S this is on page 17.  And this is a figure that refers to the

23     proportion of Albanians and Serbs in -- of the Kosovo population.  And

24     again I would ask for your comments on the figure that's on that page.

25        A.   The main feature of it is that we see that very steady increase

Page 6120

 1     in the proportion of Albanians from 1951 to 1991.  And there we see that

 2     the UNHCR estimate for 1998 is very much in line with that trends.  On

 3     the other hand, we see a steady decline in the number of -- in the

 4     proportion of Serbs, especially after 1961.  And also the other estimates

 5     are consistent with that change, more or less.

 6        Q.   Now, earlier you had referred to the estimates from the Federal

 7     Secretariat of Information for 1998.  And what can you say about those

 8     estimates with respect to the proportion of the different ethnic groups

 9     in Kosovo according to --

10        A.   That estimate is much higher than that trend.  It is almost

11     20 per cent, and it does not seem reliable.  It looks very unrealistic.

12     But it's difficult to tell how unrealistic it is since I know nothing

13     about the sources and the methodology and -- which has not been explained

14     in the information I have had.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters kindly ask to make a pause

16     between question and answer.  Thank you very much.

17             THE WITNESS:  I apologise.

18             MS. KRAVETZ:  Yes, I would ask you to pause before responding.

19        Q.   You said that it's almost 20 per cent higher, I understood, for

20     which ethnic group -- were you referring to a specific ethnic group?  Or

21     was this --

22        A.   No, I said that the proportion of Serbs is almost 20 per cent

23     according to the Secretariat of Information estimate whereas it is about

24     10 per cent according to the other estimates.  And that does not seem

25     highly likely, especially since there's no explanation why it is so

Page 6121

 1     different from the other estimates.

 2        Q.   Sir, now, I would like to move briefly to the addendum that you

 3     prepared in September 2003.  If you could just explain what was the

 4     purpose of this addendum.  And for reference, this is 65 ter 01961.

 5        A.   The OTP requested more information from the Federal Republic

 6     of Yugoslavia on the population of Kosovo, and they received that after I

 7     finished the main report.  So I was asked by OTP to go through this

 8     material and comment upon it and perhaps that would warrant a change of

 9     conclusion.

10             I did go through the material.  There was very little in it that

11     was new.  Some of it I knew already.  So it did not change my main

12     conclusion as to the size and composition of the population of Kosovo

13     before the conflict started.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honours, this is 65 ter 01961, and seek to

16     tender that at this stage.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P985, Your Honours.

19             MS. KRAVETZ:  Could we now have 65 ter 00906 up on the screen.

20        Q.   Dr. Brunborg, you are going to have a document appear on the

21     screen before you.

22             MS. KRAVETZ:  I would ask for page 2 to be displayed in the

23     original for the witness.

24        Q.   And I would just ask you if ...

25             MS. KRAVETZ:  If we could have page 2.  And if we could zoom in a

Page 6122

 1     bit for the witness.  Thank you.

 2        Q.   Do you recognise this document before you, Dr. Brunborg?

 3        A.   Well, this time I saw for the first time yesterday, but it is in

 4     any case, preliminary results from the 1991 census; however, I'm familiar

 5     with the final results of the census which was published some time after

 6     this.  This came out in 1992, I believe.  So you can say I'm familiar

 7     with the numbers of it, although I've not seen this statistical bulletin

 8     before.

 9        Q.   And does this statistical bulletin cover the whole of Serbia for

10     this period, for 1991?

11        A.   Yes, it does.  And with special sections on the autonomous

12     provinces:  Vojvodina, and Kosovo and Metohija.

13        Q.   Have you had a chance to look at the estimates that are provided

14     for Kosovo province in this document?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And are these numbers consistent with the numbers you saw when

17     you were preparing your report and were looking at the results of the

18     1991 census?

19        A.   Certainly.  These are the same figures that I refer to in my

20     report.

21             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you.  Your Honours, I seek to tender this

22     exhibit -- it's 00906 -- into evidence.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P986, Your Honours.

25             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honours, I have no further questions for this

Page 6123

 1     witness at this stage.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Ms. Kravetz.

 3             Mr. Djordjevic, do you cross-examine?

 4             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 5                           Cross-examination by Mr. Djordjevic:

 6        Q.   Good morning.

 7        A.   Good morning.

 8        Q.   My name is Dragoljub Djordjevic, and I'm defending the accused in

 9     this case.  My colleagues who examined you in the Milutinovic case have

10     already done quite a lot of work, and what I'm going to do today is just

11     try to clear up some things, or rather, I will be asking you some

12     questions, since we are all laypersons here, regarding the task of

13     your -- or rather, the task that you were given by the Prosecution when

14     you were told to draft this expert report.

15             Dr. Brunborg, you received your PhD in economics, and my learned

16     friend Mr. Visnjic asked you about that, but you consider yourself to be

17     a demographer.

18             Could you please tell me, does your PhD have anything to do with

19     the demography since it's in the field of economics or not?

20        A.   Yes, it does, because, first, many of the courses that I took as

21     part of my PhD were in demography, both economics courses and sociology

22     courses.  Secondly, the thesis that I prepared, my doctoral thesis, was

23     on the demographic issue.  So it's highly related to demography.

24             At that time you could not take a PhD in demography at the

25     University of Michigan, so that's why I took it in economics.

Page 6124

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell me, today your job is in demography, I

 2     assume, and can you please explain this?  What is it that you are doing

 3     now, today?

 4        A.   I work on Norwegian and international demography at the

 5     Statistics Norway in the research division.  I'm in charge of population

 6     projections for Norway which were published last week, and I do analysis,

 7     especially of mortality in Norway, and trends and estimates that affect

 8     the population development, and that we need to take account of when we

 9     are preparing population projections.

10        Q.   Professor, did you do the same kind of work that you've just

11     described for us at the time when you drafted your expert report, the one

12     that we have here?

13        A.   Yes, but since then I also have been in charge of a very large

14     survey, sample survey, so I've become more familiar with sample surveys

15     than I used to be.

16        Q.   Now that I'm asking you those general questions, you said that

17     you -- well, you say that you deal with demography of war and conflicts.

18     Can you please explain to us what that is, of armed conflicts; and can

19     you explain to us how much that has to do with this report that you

20     produced?  Now I'm using the interpretation that I received.

21        A.   The demography of armed conflict concerns both the consequences

22     of armed conflict for demographic factors, especially mortality, how many

23     people die; but also on migration, displaced persons; and even on

24     marriages and births.  That is one side.

25             The other side of the demography of armed conflict is that they

Page 6125

 1     are hypotheses that certain demographic factors may cause conflict, and

 2     the most -- the fact that is mostly discussed, one is the population

 3     pressure, if this high population density in the area then there may be

 4     conflict between different groups.

 5             Another one is that if the age distribution is skewed, meaning

 6     that there are many people, say, young males in certain age groups, say

 7     between 18 and 25, then that -- and especially if they are unemployed,

 8     then these may cause unrest.  So you have both consequences of conflict

 9     on demographic factors; and you have the other direction, you have

10     demographic factors that may affect conflict or the risk of conflict.

11             You asked whether this was related to this report, and there's no

12     direct relationship except that I've become more familiar with the

13     literature.  I've organised a seminar on this, an international seminar,

14     and edited a book together with colleagues on this topic.

15        Q.   In other words, we will agree that this part of your demographic

16     research did not affect your expert report both the first report and the

17     addendum regarding the demography of armed conflict that we talked about?

18        A.   That's correct.  But of course, the more you learn about the

19     field, the more qualified you are to write about it.  So indirectly it is

20     useful to know.  Although, I would say that in my report I was not

21     concerned with the conflict in Kosovo; I was only concerned with what

22     happened before the conflict and the population development because that

23     was the mandate I was given.

24        Q.   But we will agree again that there's no mention of it in your

25     expert report; is that correct?

Page 6126

 1        A.   That is correct.

 2        Q.   I will agree with you that the data would have been precious for

 3     this court, in this case and in the previous case that has already been

 4     completed, that's the Milutinovic case.  But in your expert report, you

 5     mention that you had limited time for the drafting of the report.

 6             In other words, can I then conclude that had you had more time to

 7     draft the report, that the report would have been more complete and would

 8     perhaps include some other data that might have been relevant for what

 9     you put in your basic report?

10             So could you please explain to me what does it mean when you say

11     that you had a limited time to draft the report?  When it comes to what

12     you actually wanted to say when you wrote that sentence or phrase.

13        A.   By that phrase, I meant that this was done in addition to my

14     regular job in Norway, and I did not have a whole lot of time to spend on

15     it, it was my free time.  And I could not spend a lot of time on this.

16             But I do not think that the report would have been very different

17     if I had had more time because I have not come across data sources or

18     literature that would change my conclusions.  The report might be longer

19     even, but it might also have been shorter because then I would feel more

20     comfortable with the conclusions if I had spent more time drafting.

21             So basically, I think the report would have been more or less the

22     same.  I did also get good be comments from colleagues in several

23     countries which was then strengthening my conclusions.

24        Q.   You are an eminent person in the scientific circles, and your

25     name is quite well known in our country too and you are held in high

Page 6127

 1     esteem as an expert, as a scientist.  But could you tell me, is this

 2     report a consequence of a direct demand of the Office of the Prosecutor

 3     here in The Hague, and what is it that what you wrote in the report, does

 4     it reflect the mandate that you received from the Tribunal relating to

 5     the basic elements that you are covering in your report?

 6        A.   Yes, I was asked by the Prosecutor to write a report on the

 7     population development in Kosovo.  This is what I did.  I must admit, I

 8     did not really understand why was this issue that needed a special report

 9     because already some figures had been published, but I've later learned

10     that there's some debate about this.  So they asked me then to go through

11     all available material and draw conclusions on the basis of that.  And

12     that is what I have done.

13        Q.   In fact, my question followed from the response I received to the

14     question that pertained to many other events that might influence

15     demographic movements and changes among other things, what you spoke

16     about in your initial report, you covered it only very briefly when you

17     spoke about migrations, and you spoke about migrations motivated by

18     economic reasons, by political pressure, violence, and other factors.

19     Well, we have a situation where we have an armed conflict within a state,

20     so it's a civil war.  You talked about the density of population and so

21     on.

22             So my question to you is this:  Was there a different interaction

23     between you and the Office of the Prosecutor, did you propose that such

24     information could be added to the report?  And that would have been of

25     great importance for this case.

Page 6128

 1        A.   Within the mandate I was given freehand to write about what I

 2     wanted.  But the report does not include any causal analysis; it's a

 3     purely descriptive presentation of available facts that were not produced

 4     by me but by different institutions and people.  So I did not try to

 5     explain why there was migration, in-migration, out-migration.  The only

 6     place where I have a few explanatory remarks is on births and deaths

 7     where I said that Kosovo was late in the demographic condition, that is,

 8     in decline of fertility, and also that -- but that's just a passing

 9     remark.  There was also no causal analysis.

10        Q.   Since we are still on the basic arguments, my next question has

11     to do with the term "demographic transition."  It's beginning, duration,

12     and completion, because that's what you are talking about.  So could you

13     please clarify this for us because we are laypersons.  What would that

14     mean in the case of Kosovo?

15        A.   The demographic transition is a term that is widely used in

16     demography.  It pertains to the transition from a pre-industrial society

17     with high birth and death rates to a modern society with low birth and

18     death rates.  In between there is transition.  All countries of the world

19     have started this transition, that means all countries of the world have

20     had declining mortality.  There are some countries, however, where the

21     fertility or the birth-rate has not started to decline much.  That is

22     in -- mostly in Africa.

23             In this regard, what's interesting with regard to Kosovo, is that

24     fertility, or the birth-rate, remained high for a long time in spite of

25     Kosovo having undergone great economic and social development in the

Page 6129

 1     post-Second World War period.

 2             I think there is a graph on -- showing the birth and death rate.

 3     I do not -- let me see.  It's on the page 15 in the English version,

 4     figure 3, which shows the totality fertility rate or the number of

 5     children per women in Serbia excluding Kosovo, and in Kosovo.

 6             For Serbia excluding Kosovo it has been around 2 children for

 7     women since the mid-1960s, which is on the, you could say the western

 8     European level.  Whereas for Kosovo, it was very high in 1950s, between

 9     seven and eight children.  Declined to between four and five around 1980,

10     and has since then declined to between three and four children in 1990.

11     And I have not looked up the data since 1990.

12             But three and a half children is also very high compared to the

13     rest of Serbia and also to other European countries.  But it's obvious

14     that also Kosovo is undergoing the demographic transition.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And you said that in your report that the transition

16     is drawing to a close in Kosovo, which means that the fertility is no

17     longer at the level it was in the decades that -- in the preceding

18     decades but that it is now coming down to the usual levels, if I may call

19     it that, European levels.

20             Now, what I want to know, as you were drafting your report, the

21     sources that you used, you mention the Federal Institute for Statistics

22     or the Federal Statistical Office, you mentioned your French colleagues,

23     anthropologists from Bordeaux, the whole team, then you mentioned the

24     Federal Secretariat for Information, the UNHCR data, and Islami.  From

25     your report, I haven't been able to define whose Islami is, I couldn't

Page 6130

 1     even see it from the footnotes.

 2        A.   Are you asking me about Mr. Islami?

 3        Q.   Correct, yes?

 4        A.   I also don't know who he is.  His first name is Huizi, and he

 5     wrote "Demensioni demografik i ceshjes se Kosoves" published in Pristina

 6     in 1997.  That is all I know.

 7        Q.   But what I want to know is whether you know anything more about

 8     him, apart from this study that he did.  Do you know if he worked for any

 9     organisation in Kosovo, the UNHCR, or anything of the sort?  That's my

10     question.

11        A.   No, I'm afraid not.  I did not know anything about him.  And this

12     is not published in the Scientific Journal.  In sciences we prefer

13     publications, articles that have been published in peer-reviewed

14     journals, so that they are as highly qualified and as objective as

15     possible.  There's no -- for other publications, there's no quality

16     stamp, you could say.  And this refers both to the Islami study and to

17     the Federal Secretariat of Information, that they may have -- in both

18     cases there may be a hidden agenda.

19        Q.   We will agree that the science you do has often been used for

20     political purposes; but since we are now in a court of law, what we want

21     to know is your scientific knowledge.  And my next question that follows

22     up inevitably after your response is whether, in your work using this

23     data, you ever contacted experts from the institutions so that you

24     invoke, so the colleagues who work there in the Federal Statistical

25     Office in Belgrade or somebody from the Federal Secretariat for

Page 6131

 1     Information, the UNHCR, the colleagues from Bordeaux; did you personally

 2     talk to them?  Did you contact them when you did your work perhaps so

 3     they might have given you more literature, or more information, or they

 4     could have resolved some dilemmas that you may have faced in your work

 5     given the data that you had at your disposal?

 6        A.   I did have contact with the French demographers after I wrote the

 7     report, and before my previous testimony to clarify some issues.  I did

 8     not have time, all the resources to contact, and all the other

 9     institutions, unfortunately.  That may be -- if you pointed to the fact

10     that I would say that time is limited, and if I had more time and

11     resources, I will of course have contacted these institutions.

12        Q.   Thank you.  As the scientist, you use different methodologies

13     which is obvious from your report.  You say that in the area of the

14     former Yugoslavia, the de jure demographic method was used.  Was that a

15     method that was common in Europe at the time?

16             You also mentioned a UN recommendation dating back to 1958, to

17     use the de facto method.  The method used in the area of the former

18     Yugoslavia, as you said, was the de jure one.  Was that the customary

19     method in the various countries of Europe at the time?

20        A.   No, the customary method was the de facto method, because in a

21     census you want to know the size of the population at the given point in

22     time called the census date.  And that is why people who are not in the

23     country, especially people who have left and are aware for a long period

24     should not be included.  Say tourists are usually included, someone is

25     travelling.  But they -- also countries where they only include people

Page 6132

 1     who are physically present.  There are countries where they introduce a

 2     curfew on the census day so they count everybody where they are.  People

 3     are not allowed to go out.

 4             The problem with this method that was applied in the former

 5     Yugoslavia was that it often included people who had left the country to

 6     work in other -- abroad.  Sometimes for long periods, sometimes for many

 7     years.  So in principle these people could then be included in the census

 8     abroad as well and this would not be consistent that people should be

 9     counted as living in two different countries at the same time.

10        Q.   From the 1950s onwards, what was the method used in your country,

11     Norway?

12        A.   It was a sort of de facto method.  I would say "sort of" because

13     no methods are purely true.  Say if somebody is in the hospital or on a

14     short trip then they are also included.  However, as of -- from 1970 in

15     my country, we have the Central Population Registry which was then the

16     primary bases for conducting the census.

17             And our last census was in 2001, and we will not have any more

18     regular censuses because all the information from now on will be drawn

19     from administrative registers.

20        Q.   Thank you.  What was your experience monitoring migration because

21     you frequently referred to the data that is missing when

22     Kosovo and Metohija is concerned?

23        A.   One way of getting data or information is to ask people in a

24     census whether they have been abroad or been away for a period or

25     somebody else in the household has been away or may still be absent.  And

Page 6133

 1     if you then ask about the years of migrating, you can estimate migration

 2     flows.  That is one way.

 3             The other way is to ask retrospectively, as in the French survey,

 4     if people had been away.  But basically the questions are more or less

 5     the same.  And then you can retrospectively and indirectly estimate

 6     migration.

 7             A better method would, of course, be if everybody reported when

 8     they left the country and when they returned.  That is in principle done

 9     in my country, although with some weaknesses.

10        Q.   Concerning the system of obtaining permanent or temporary

11     residence in the former Yugoslavia, you said that the method was lacking

12     and inefficient.  Why did you not elaborate on that further?  Could it be

13     because of the fact that the Albanian population, most of which were

14     Albanians, did not participate in the censuses or perhaps there was no

15     better or proper way of monitoring immigration and migration flows in

16     general?  Could you please clarify that in some detail.

17        A.   I didn't quite understand your question, but let me try to

18     answer.  As I said, the Albanian population boycotted the 1991 census,

19     but they participated in previous censuses, although there have been some

20     criticism of the 1971 and 1981 censuses that really not contribute as

21     much as they should or something.  But I've not seen any strong evidence

22     on the weaknesses of those censuses.

23             Otherwise, migration is very difficult to measure.  Whether it's

24     for Albanians or Serbs or other people.  Unless you have a very good

25     system with very good registration of when people leave and when they

Page 6134

 1     come back, it is hard.  You have to use indirect methods or interview

 2     samples or use a census.

 3        Q.   My question was rather, what was the system like when it comes to

 4     recording migration in the former Yugoslavia or in Serbia and Kosovo to

 5     be more specific?  What could you deduce from the body of law that you

 6     have read on that issue?  Did you arrive at any conclusions?

 7        A.   Unfortunately I'm not familiar with the law on the former

 8     Yugoslavia.  There was no -- to my knowledge there was no registration of

 9     migration.  There was the police, however, had some registers of people

10     and -- but they were not complete.  And it was not mostly register.  The

11     MUP, the minister of interior, had such a register of people; but I do

12     not think that it was regularly updated with births and migrations.  They

13     registered people at a certain point in time, but they had not -- they

14     did not have a good system for revising those registers.

15        Q.   Since we discussed certain types of analysis, I would now go back

16     to the issue of fertility.  Page 3 of your addendum.  I think it is the

17     last paragraph or thereabout.  Therein you say that between 1981 and 1990

18     the fertility of the Kosovo population was around 3.000 and that the

19     increase of overall population was some 300.000.  I tried to deal -- to

20     do some math here, and it didn't quite tally.

21             The difference of 65.000, you attribute that to the positive

22     migration numbers.  That is to say, more people came in than went out.

23     Given that this is a highly unlikely mistake to be made, since I checked

24     that against the English version where net migration is mentioned in that

25     period, perhaps you can explain this to me.  In terms of simple math,

Page 6135

 1     this is something that I was unable to grasp.

 2        A.   Well, in the report it says that for the period 1981 to 1990 -

 3     and I said perhaps it should be 1991 - according to the source, the

 4     population grew, the natural population growth was 433.000; that is the

 5     difference between births and deaths.  But according to another -- other

 6     sources, the difference in population size was 372.000.  And then

 7     since -- okay, I see.  Okay.  I see.

 8        Q.   [English] That's it.

 9        A.   That was a mistake.  Thank you for correcting that.  I see your

10     point.  It should be a net out-migration, of course.  Because the natural

11     population growth was higher than the actual population growth so then

12     you have a loss due to out-migration.  Thank you.

13        Q.   Now it seems clear to me.

14        A.   So, Your Honour, I would like to add this to the list of

15     misprints, that was -- that was presented earlier today.  And I can be

16     specific, if I may.  On the page 3 in the addendum, fourth paragraph,

17     second to last line where it says:

18             "Implying that there was net in-migration to Kosovo."

19             It should read:

20             "Implying that there was net out-migration from Kosovo."

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Thank you.  Page 4 of your report relating to

22     the problems of assessing the exact numbers of the population, it is the

23     top paragraph.  It says that the most common method is to conduct a

24     census of households.

25             You referred to the data, but when assessment is concerned, or

Page 6136

 1     estimate, since I believe it to be a rather problematic issue in terms of

 2     your type of research, what would be the basic parameters that you would

 3     scientifically use in order to arrive at the level of conclusions of

 4     sufficient likelihood and probability that you refer to in your

 5     conclusions, which would correspond to the actual basis of the census to

 6     be considered accurate?  What would be your basis for such conclusions?

 7     And perhaps later on we can go into the data you discussed in your

 8     report.

 9        A.   Excuse me, could you rephrase your questions to be more exact,

10     please.

11        Q.   Very well.  You don't have exact data on the census conducted,

12     hence you enter the area of estimates as to how much population there

13     should be of this or that ethnicity, of this or that sex, and everything

14     else that would be included.  Which would be the basic elements that you

15     would take into account for the estimates to be as accurate as possible?

16     What would be the components of your estimate?  What did the French team

17     do?  What was done by the statistics bureau?  What was done by the

18     department for information?  What was done by the other gentleman you

19     mentioned, Islami?  Which would be the parameters that would take you to

20     your conclusion, the basic parameters?  That would be my question

21     relating to the method of estimating.

22        A.   I assume you refer to the 1991 census for Kosovo which the

23     Albanians boycotted.  And as I've said already, then the parameters that

24     the Federal Statistical Office in Belgrade used was the -- to get

25     estimates of the population of Albanians in 1991, was to project it from

Page 6137

 1     the 1981, so they used 1981 census and their data on births and deaths in

 2     the years between 1981 and 1991.

 3             Whereas the other source when we wanted to know the population in

 4     1998 before the conflict started, the French demographers, they -- first

 5     of all, they had an estimate of the population at approximately that

 6     time, but they did not know the -- or at the later time.  But they needed

 7     to know estimate and migration in the years in between to come up with an

 8     estimate.

 9             So you could say that counts of population size at one time, and

10     estimates of population changes in between the current time, and the date

11     of the actual estimate were used.  Those were the parameters.  Please ask

12     if I did not answer your question fully.

13        Q.   I've completely understood what you said.  I wanted to go back to

14     what you answered to my learned friend Mr. Visnjic in Milutinovic et al.

15     He asked you, concerning estimates, he referred to three basic elements:

16     One would be the basic year.  The second would be the data on births and

17     deaths.  And the third would be data on migration.  His question was

18     answered by you positively.  You said that one can have positive and

19     negative migration, so out-migration, in-migration, and you basically

20     confirm that these would be the basic elements to arrive at an estimate.

21             Having in mind that answer, as well as some other questions that

22     were put to you, although my question would not be directed at those, my

23     question would rather have to do with the data you had for estimates.

24     You said that the federal statistics bureau is, in your view, realistic

25     in its assessment, then -- as for the information department, you believe

Page 6138

 1     their assessment to be unrealistic.  As you put your views for all of the

 2     researchers involved, the French demographers and Islami as well.

 3             What I wanted to ask you is this:  As for the UNHCR you said that

 4     their estimate is quite close to reality, although the method they used,

 5     which, I believe, was based on voters lists, is highly unreliable because

 6     it excludes the entire population under the age of 18, since they do not

 7     vote.

 8             Did you go into assessing the methods used by the various

 9     institutions and researchers I enumerated, or was your view of their

10     conclusions based on something else?

11        A.   Thank you.  Of course I looked at the methods, but I do not think

12     that UNHCR based its estimate of 2.2 million in 1998 on voters lists.

13     There were voters lists collected later but UNMIK in, I think -- in the

14     year 2000 or 2001.  And I agree with you that voters lists are not

15     reliable as a source on the size of a population since it exclude all

16     those who cannot vote under age 18, usually, and all those who did not

17     register to vote.  So they can only be used very indirectly, voters

18     lists, I mean.

19        Q.   Regarding the change of ethnic composition, we can see what the

20     increase rate of the Albanian population as of the 1960s and onwards.

21     All other ethnic communities remained at more or less the same level and

22     the Serb community even decreased in terms of numbers.

23             You mentioned that there's high fertility rate of the Albanian

24     population and a negative fertility rate of the Serb population, I fully

25     agree with that.  But in the rest of your report you talk about the

Page 6139

 1     volume and cause of the negative -- net out-migration of the Serbs,

 2     without mentioning what the cause would be.

 3             I wanted to ask you, is it possible that you had no data in terms

 4     of references used, or was this caused by something completely different?

 5     I would like to hear your explanation of that.  There is literally not a

 6     single word on the causes of the negative migration trends of the Serbs

 7     in Kosovo and Metohija.

 8        A.   There are two reasons why I did not mention any causes.  First, I

 9     was not asked to do it; and secondly, that would require a very detailed

10     knowledge about the history and the economic and social situation of

11     Kosovo and Serbs in particular.  And it is also a highly political issue

12     that I do not have much knowledge about.

13             So I was asked, as I said, just to review the demographic data.

14     Not to explain the data.

15        Q.   Let me put it this way, as for the immigrants of

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatia, and Serbia proper, from where there were

17     none, you say that these people were of Serb ethnicity.  As for those who

18     came from Albania, you did not refer to their ethnic affiliation.

19             Was this an omission on your part, or did you not have any data

20     as to who migrated from Albania to Kosovo?  Or did you not know their

21     ethnicity?  Or maybe you really didn't have a clue when discussing these

22     types of migration.  This is something my learned friend, Mr. Lukic,

23     asked of you in the Milutinovic et al. Case.

24        A.   Could you please refer to the place in the report where I

25     mentioned these migration flows?

Page 6140

 1        Q.   Bear with me.  In that case, you even assisted my colleague by

 2     pointing out the reference in your report.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Mr. Djordjevic should either read slowly or

 4     provide the reference in the report.

 5             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

 6        Q.   Page 7, paragraph 1.

 7        A.   In this paragraph I just mention -- refer to migration streams

 8     that have been mentioned in the literature; and for many -- most of these

 9     migration flows, I do not have any exact numbers.  I just mention the

10     flows, where they're from.  It says, Migration of Serbs and Albanians

11     from Kosovo from economic reasons, but also violence and persecution;

12     migration into Kosovo from Albania; migration into Kosovo of Serbs from

13     Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina, settlement of Serbs, from Central Serbia

14     in Kosovo, et cetera.

15             So I did not mention all the -- what was your question?  Why I

16     didn't mention the ethnicity of Albanians from Albania?

17        Q.   No ,no, no, you mentioned in-migration from Albania without

18     specifying what ethnic community moved from where to where.  Then you

19     said later that you don't have information on the number of people.  My

20     next question -- but you did mention that this was because of the 1992 to

21     1995 war which was when the Serbs moved in from Bosnia-Herzegovina and

22     Croatia to Kosovo; that's what you mentioned in Milutinovic at the end of

23     your testimony.  And then in response to the question by my learned

24     friend Mr. Lukic, you said the migration of Serbs from Bosnia-Herzegovina

25     to Kosovo throughout the war of 1992, and 1992 from --

Page 6141

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The counsel is kindly

 2     asked to slow down when reading.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic, you are reading too quickly.

 4             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  Slow down.

 5             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, I don't mean to interrupt, but I would

 6     just -- whenever my learned colleague is referring to previous testimony,

 7     if we could just have a transcript page reference in order to follow.  I

 8     would appreciate that.

 9             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Well, let me ask this to cut a long story short:  Do you remember

11     saying that?  That's at the very end of your evidence in the Milutinovic

12     case.

13        A.   Vaguely.  I'm familiar with some of the conflicts in

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia and Krajina, and the refugees flows and

15     that I've read that some of them went to -- went to Kosovo.  That is all.

16     This was a -- just examples of migration flows in and out of Kosovo.  It

17     was no analyses of the number or the ethnic -- or the ethnicity of those.

18             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honour, this would be a

19     convenient time for the break so that I can find the exact reference and

20     continue with my cross-examination since we are now one hour and a half

21     into our today's hearing.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.  We must have a break now and we resume

23     at 11.00.

24                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

Page 6142

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djordjevic.

 2             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] In paragraph 28 of your expert report, you talk

 4     about the estimates for the Kosovo Albanians abroad, and here you refer

 5     to the estimates made by Mr. Malcolm, and again by estimates by Islami.

 6     And they go -- range between 300.000 and 500.000.  What can you tell us

 7     about the reliability of the data?

 8        A.   Excuse me, which page?

 9        Q.   That's page 5, in B/C/S.  I assume that it's the same page in

10     English.  It's the last paragraph.  It's in the chapter which is entitled

11     "The Problems in Obtaining Population Estimates," so it's the next page.

12     And it beginning with the sentence:

13             "The FSO estimates of the temporarily absent workers abroad,

14     28.000 to 91.000 people."  And then Malcolm 368.000, and finally

15     Islami, 500.000.

16        A.   And what is your question?

17        Q.   The reliability of the estimates because we can see that the

18     estimates range between 28.000 to half a million Albanians temporarily

19     working abroad.  Grecic is also mentioned here.

20        A.   Your Honour, as I mentioned in the same paragraph, I say that the

21     estimates sited by Malcolm and Grecic include many Albanians who have

22     become residents abroad including many who have emigrated with entire

23     households, leaving nobody to report their absence.  So that means they

24     should not be included in the FSO estimates of temporarily absent workers

25     abroad if they have left Kosovo and Serbia and live abroad.  That's why

Page 6143

 1     you have such widely deferring numbers.  Some of these I've left and are

 2     not intending to return to live.  We don't know about their intentions,

 3     but they may have lived abroad for many many years.

 4        Q.   You mention Malcolm.  Now, I would like you to tell us whether

 5     you know what sources he used when he says that in 1993, for instance,

 6     368.000 Kosovo Albanians were living in western European countries?

 7        A.   To answer that I would need to consult Mr. Malcolm's book, which

 8     I do not have here.

 9        Q.   Regarding this information, do you have an estimate as to what

10     data would be closest to the real situation or not?

11        A.   No -- sorry, no, that was not part of my mandate.  Of course, if

12     I was asked to do that, I would -- I could go to different countries'

13     censuses, and see if they had a breakdown by nationality, or citizenship,

14     or country of birth, or country of origin, to see how many of the

15     population say in my own country Norway who came from Albania or Kosovo.

16             But even in my country that would be difficult because the

17     country of origin would then be either the Socialist Republic

18     of Yugoslavia or later Yugoslavia and later Serbia; and as you know only

19     recently did Kosovo declare dependence, long time after the period we are

20     concerned about.

21        Q.   I don't know if we'll be able to agree that the estimates are

22     quite arbitrary, the ones that you just mentioned when you actually quote

23     all those authors.

24        A.   Are you now talking about the number of Albanians abroad or

25     the --

Page 6144

 1        Q.   Precisely.

 2        A.   Well, I would need to then check again the sources of Mr. Malcolm

 3     and Mr. Grecic who quotes an even higher number, 500.000 Albanians from

 4     throughout the former Yugoslavia living abroad.  So whether these are

 5     inconsistent or unrealistic, I cannot tell you now.

 6             But these are -- at least Mr. Malcolm is a recognised author.  I

 7     don't know about Mr. Grecic.  And I think there's been also some debate

 8     about Mr. Malcolm's numbers.  I've seen a reference to that, but I've not

 9     gone into it.

10        Q.   But I understand that Mr. Grecic made an estimate for the total

11     population of Albanians living all over the world, whereas Mr. Malcolm

12     confined himself to Albanians living in western European countries to the

13     best of my knowledge or understanding.

14        A.   You are right.  When I re-read that paragraph it say Mr. Grecic

15     talks about Albanians lived -- from throughout the Yugoslavia who lived

16     abroad, and Mr. Malcolm only for those living in western Europe.  So that

17     means those figures are consistent.  There are, of course, many Albanians

18     who live in countries outside western Europe, say especially

19     United States and Canada.

20        Q.   Thank you.  The next paragraph is on the next page.  It begins

21     with the word "population estimates" and the first paragraph there you

22     say that several different methods can be used, and the simplest is to

23     extrapolate the growth rate of the population, you've already told us

24     about that.  But you say that if this method is used and you don't take

25     into account the age structure dynamics.  Could you please explain to us

Page 6145

 1     what is age structure dynamics?

 2        A.   The age structure dynamics refers to the population change for

 3     each age group.  We know that births are only borne by women between

 4     approximately 15 and 50 years.  Most people die at higher ages, at higher

 5     ages also people do not migrate much, so it depends.  The number of

 6     births and the growth rate depends on the population composition, the age

 7     structure of a population.

 8             And if you only calculate -- extrapolate growth rate, you do not

 9     take this into account.  It could be that a population will soon start

10     declining because, although it is growing now, because the fertility rate

11     is low and there are many old people.  So that is why.  It is more --

12     it's a better method than just extrapolating growth rates.

13        Q.   At any rate, the age structure dynamics, as a method, and the

14     growth rate, they are incompatible as methods.  And then you go on to say

15     the trends in birth, death, and migration rates.  So it's quite clear

16     what this is all about.  But the methods to determine the natural growth

17     rate, is that the same thing as the population growth rate or not?

18        A.   It is not.  Because the natural growth rate is the difference

19     between the birth-rate and the death rate, whereas the population growth

20     rate also takes the immigration surplus or deficit into account.

21        Q.   Now, tell me the method to determine the natural growth rate.  Is

22     it mutually exclusive with the population growth rate method, what's the

23     situation there?  Because to me as a layperson and to all of us who are

24     not experts in the demography, it would be much clearer if you could tell

25     us that.

Page 6146

 1        A.   If you take the number of births in a year and divide by the

 2     mid-year population, that gives you the birth-rate.  You do the same for

 3     the death rates:  deaths divided by the mid-year population.  You

 4     subtract these two numbers and then you get the natural growth rate.  And

 5     you can multiply by 100 to get the per cent, natural growth rate.  And

 6     again, migrations have not been taken into account.

 7        Q.   Thank you for your detailed explanation.  The age structure

 8     dynamics and the cohort component method, could you please make a

 9     correlation there?

10        A.   The cohort component method is used to project a population by

11     projecting each age group of the population.  Say you start in one year

12     and you multiply by the survival rates of that group, and then you'll get

13     the same population one year or five years later that has survived.

14             Then you multiply the number of women in each age group, 15 to

15     19, et cetera, by the birth-rate for the corresponding age group, and

16     that gives you the population at some future point.  But you also would

17     have to take into account migration.  If there's no migration, that would

18     be the right figure; but if there's migration, you have to make estimate

19     then.

20             The number of out-migrants by age and the number in-migrants by

21     age.  And as we have discussed previously, data on migration are

22     generally much poorer then data on births and deaths.

23        Q.   Please tell me, as you worked on this report, did you use the

24     data from the provincial statistics bureau from Pristina regarding

25     demographic data or not?

Page 6147

 1        A.   I do not think I used many data if at all from Pristina since --

 2     well, at least I did not use for the new office because it was not

 3     established at that time before 1999.  But there was a provincial office

 4     and which assisted in collecting data for the census, and I assume they

 5     were also in charge of registering births and deaths which is called the

 6     vital statistics system.

 7             But all the sources are given as Belgrade, so they transfer the

 8     data to Belgrade, the Federal Statistical Office, which then has checked

 9     the data, I assume, and produced tables and statistics and books.

10        Q.   Doctor, do you know that sometime in late 1950s and early 1960s

11     detailed reports of the provincial office did not end up in Belgrade but

12     they actually remained in Pristina since that time.  So as of the 1960s,

13     there are no detailed reports and nothing is centralised in terms of the

14     detailed data.  All the detailed data from the -- collected in the census

15     remain in the provincial office.

16        A.   But according to the data I've received from Belgrade, they do

17     list data for Kosovo and Metohija, so they must have received the data

18     somehow from Pristina anyway.

19        Q.   They have the key statistical indicators but the detailed

20     documents are kept in the provincial office, so these documents were not

21     used in the preparation of your report, that's what I wanted to ask you.

22     My next question --

23        A.   Excuse me, may I comment?  This was done in all the republics.

24     I'm familiar with the census of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and they did the

25     collection of the data and the processing of the tables in Sarajevo and

Page 6148

 1     then transmitted, I believe, the tables to Belgrade, not the actual data,

 2     what we call microdata or the census forms.  And it appears that the same

 3     thing was done in Kosovo, in Pristina.

 4        Q.   I assume that you will agree with me when I say that the census

 5     was taken by the provincial authorities, and not by the federal

 6     authority.  Each republic in the former Yugoslavia and the provinces in

 7     Serbia, they had their own bodies that took the census.  Can we agree on

 8     that?  And the federal government merely put together the forms that were

 9     to be used in the course of the census?

10        A.   My impression is that the federal government did more.  They

11     designed the questionnaire, and they gave guide-lines to each republic

12     and, they introduced the law as well.  And so they -- there was some

13     supervision of the census in each republic.  How close the cooperation

14     was, I do not know.  But there was a central committee and a

15     questionnaire that was almost similar in each republic.

16        Q.   Paragraph, or rather, that would be other population estimates in

17     the 1990s, that's what you entitled this chapter, and then the second

18     paragraph, that's page 11 in B/C/S.  In English I'm not quite sure, but

19     it's item 7, other population estimates for the 1990s.  And it says here

20     that the Albanian population in 1995, the number was 1.96 million.

21             Have you been able to find it?  I think it's on page 11 or 12;

22     it's the second paragraph there.

23        A.   Yes, that is in table 4.

24        Q.   That's correct.  But before that, according to the figure in the

25     first column that is provided by Islami, quoted by Grecic in 1999, the

Page 6149

 1     Albanian population in 1995 was 1.96 million, which is 89. --

 2     89.1 per cent of the total population.  This figure is not realistic.

 3     It's not clear how between 1991 and 1995, the Albanian population could

 4     grow so rapidly.  5.1 per cent annually.  This growth is much greater

 5     than it had been in any previous period.  And then you refer to table 3,

 6     and you base your on conclusions on this, so that the Albanian population

 7     could not experience this growth rate in this period.

 8             And when you say that they could not have grown this rapidly by

 9     5.1 per cent per year, do you refer to the natural growth, to the

10     mortality, to migrations, to everything, or to anything specific?  So

11     could you please just tell us that.  What did you base this on?

12        A.   This refers to the total population growth, and I just -- I

13     simply compared the number provided by Mr. Islami and other figures.  And

14     5.1 per cent per year population growth is not possible without

15     migration.  You can hardly get above 3, 3 and a half per cent in special

16     circumstances.  So there must -- if this is -- these figures are true, it

17     must be due to rather heavy in-migration.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Now, it's much clearer.  Page 12, again in B/C/S.

19     Paragraph, I believe, four on that page.  You say that according to

20     Ms. Blayo, I suppose that she led the team of demographers from Bordeaux,

21     but in 1998 a total population was 2.290.000 people would have lived

22     there had there not been any in-migration, out-migration, and you

23     consider her estimates to be the most reliable.  That's what you said at

24     page 2 in the last paragraph.  So they are based on a survey carried out

25     after the NATO intervention in Kosovo that between 2.044.000 and

Page 6150

 1     2.131.000 people, you say that Ms. Blayo and her associates estimate that

 2     in the period between 1991 and 1998 between 180.000 people and 267.000

 3     people left Kosovo.  But you cannot understand how the net out-migration

 4     could be greater by 21.000 people in relation to the overall number of

 5     population with and without migration.  159.000 people and 246.000 people

 6     respectively.

 7             So could you please explain this.  I mean, you are not clear with

 8     this, so could you please tell me what it is that you are not clear?

 9     Because I really can't also grasp everything here.  I'm not clear myself.

10        A.   Yes, although there was some inconsistency in the data, and I did

11     not quite understand either.  So I remember writing them, Mrs. Blayo and

12     asking about that; I do not recall the answer.  I have it with me in my

13     bag; I can look it up.  It could be -- the dates are very important here.

14     1st of October, 1998.  The survey was conducted in November, 1998, and it

15     could be that it was in the previous -- referring to 31st of October, and

16     they talk about the 12 month period and also a 13 month period, so this

17     is all confusing.

18             But anyway, I do not think the 21.000 or not is very significant

19     given all the uncertainty about this.

20        Q.   Well, not everything is clear to me, even after your answer, but

21     I thank you.  Nevertheless, I'm not going to dwell on it.  When you say

22     that this is not that important.

23             Now, I would like us to go to the literature, the references that

24     you list.  Did you use the Federal Statistics Office, the demographic

25     research centre, and the Institute for Social Sciences entitled "The

Page 6151

 1     Population and Households in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia"

 2     according to the 1991 census published in the 1995 in Belgrade, so did

 3     you use that as a source?

 4        A.   Is it in my list of references?

 5        Q.   Well, to tell you the truth, I didn't see it on the list of your

 6     references, but this is a source that I consulted since it refers to a

 7     critical part of the period that you covered in your report; I believe

 8     this to be highly competent, the population and the households in the

 9     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia according to the 1991 census published in

10     Belgrade 1995.

11        A.   It looks like I must not have been aware of that publication, but

12     there are other publications that come around at the same time that may

13     have integrated this information.  You have publications from the same

14     institute of 1997, 1993, 2001, 1997, 1998.  No, not 1998.  1997,

15     statistical yearbooks.  So I assume that the information that you refer

16     to was also included in other statistical publications from the

17     statistical institutes.

18        Q.   Thank you.  I would now like to put you my last question in this

19     cross-examination.  Your conclusion is that the estimate of the

20     population -- of the Albanian population in Kosovo in 1998 was probably

21     close to 83.6 per cent provided by the UNHCR, almost 84 per cent.  You

22     say it is definitely lower than the 89.1 per cent provided by Islami for

23     1995, and higher than the estimate of the Federal Information Secretariat

24     which had the estimate of 66.5 per cent.  You say that there were up to

25     10 per cent of Serbs maximum, or rather that there were 7 per cent.  Even

Page 6152

 1     if we take that there were 13 per cent of them, which is not accurate,

 2     and if we take the least probable piece of information which is that of

 3     the Federal Information Secretariat, was that there was 66.5 per cent

 4     Albanians, what is it that would reflect the change of ethnic composition

 5     in Kosovo in terms of numbers?

 6             What numbers would be required to change the ethnic structure in

 7     Kosovo if there was say, 66.5 Albanians, 15 per cent of Serbs,

 8     and 5 per cent of other ethnicities?  What would that mean

 9     demographically speaking for the change of the ethnic structure?  If you

10     can, of course, provide an explanation.

11        A.   Sir, I said previously that I did not find the estimate -- that

12     estimate very reliable.  And both because it was deviating very much from

13     other results, and also because the sources of the data and the methods

14     were not listed at all.  So that's why I think it's completely

15     unrealistic.

16             Now, if trying to be forward to your question, the only thing

17     that could have caused it would of course have been very heavy

18     in-migration flows.  So that is the only thing that could cause such a

19     big change in the proportion, and the numbers of Albanians and Serbs.  We

20     know that Albanians have higher -- have more births, but in a few years

21     that does not amount to very much.  So it is mostly migration that can

22     explain it.  Could explain it.  But as I said, I do not believe very much

23     in that number.

24        Q.   I don't either.  Thank you.

25             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  [Interpretation]  This conclude my

Page 6153

 1     cross-examination of this witness, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Djordjevic.

 3             Ms. Kravetz, do you re-examine.

 4             MS. KRAVETZ:  Just very briefly Your Honour.

 5                           Re-examination by Ms. Kravetz:

 6        Q.   Sir, just going back to this last answer you gave, I wanted to

 7     clarify your answer.  My learned colleague asked you about your

 8     conclusions as to the estimates, and you responded that you did not find

 9     that estimate very reliable both because it was deviating very much from

10     other results and also because of the source data.  Just to clarify,

11     which estimate were you speaking about that you did not find very

12     reliable?

13        A.   I apologise if I was not so clear, but I was referring to the

14     estimate by the Ministry of the Secretariat of Information for 1998.  I

15     think my understanding was that that was what we were talking about.

16     Which was -- let me look to be absolutely clear.  Let's see.  Excuse me.

17             Federal Secretariat of Information, 1.378 and something,

18     population in 1998.  And the ethnic composition according to that a

19     was -- where is, I do not find it right away.  Excuse me, perhaps you

20     could help me.  The page number?

21        Q.   I believe you are referring to the summary of the conclusions of

22     your report, or are you looking for another precise spot?

23        A.   I was looking for a table, but anyway, that was the figure I

24     referred to.  I still say -- I say that the data indicate that the

25     proportion of Albanians in 1998 was 83 per cent, and that the number then

Page 6154

 1     of 66 per cent of Albanians is unrealistic, and not reliable.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Are you referring to figure 4 of your report, or did you

 3     have another table in mind?

 4        A.   That is correct, yes.  Yeah.  There's also a table giving you the

 5     numbers.

 6        Q.   Okay.  I just want to go back to an earlier answer you gave.  My

 7     learned colleague was asking you - and this is at the bottom of page 30

 8     of today's transcript - as to which would be the basic parameters that

 9     you would take into account for your estimates.  And you spoke about the

10     1991 census, and you also referred to the survey done by the French

11     demographers.

12             And I just wanted to clarify your answer with regard to the

13     survey conducted by the French demographers.  You said:

14             "... whereas the other source that we wanted to know, the

15     population in 1998 before the conflict started, the French demographers

16     had an estimate of the population at approximately that time, and they

17     wanted to know the migrations in the years in between."

18             And this is at lines 9 to 14 of page 31 of today's transcript?

19             Could you explain what was the -- which estimates did the French

20     demographers have available that you were referring to in that answer

21     when you said "they had an estimate of the population at approximately

22     that time."

23        A.   That estimate made by the United Nations High Commissioner for

24     Refugees as of 31st of March, I believe, 1998.

25        Q.   And was this the same estimate of the High Commissioner for

Page 6155

 1     Refugees that you refer to earlier in your evidence, or was this a

 2     different one?

 3        A.   Yes.  That's the same.

 4        Q.   So if I understand correctly, the French demographers relied on

 5     the numbers provided by UNHCR and then conducted their survey to be able

 6     to estimate the out-going and in-going migration for the period of --

 7        A.   You are right.  Yeah.

 8        Q.   Just correct me if it's not a correct understanding?

 9        A.   They also had a later estimate as of August 1999 when the --

10     which was a headcount, a village headcount which had been made by UNHCR,

11     so that's a second estimate.  And -- which resulted in 1.560.000 persons.

12     But that was after the conflict and after lots of migration.  So that was

13     the -- that was the other basis, the main basis for the survey.  And --

14     which was then immediately before they started interviewing in

15     November 1999; so I think that is more precise, to refer to that estimate

16     of 1.56 million.

17        Q.   So there are two different UNHCR estimates and French

18     demographers relied on that second one from August 1999?

19        A.   Yes, yes.  I apologise for confusing with the previous estimates.

20        Q.   No, that's okay.  It's no problem.

21             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you, sir, those are my questions.  I have no

22     further questions, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Ms. Kravetz.

24             You will be pleased to know, Doctor, that concludes the questions

25     for you.  We are grateful for your assistance and thank you for troubling

Page 6156

 1     to come again to The Hague to help us in this matter, and we wish you

 2     well on your journey.  Thank you.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 4                           [The witness withdrew]

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Ms. Kravetz.

 6             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, before the next witness is called, I

 7     just wanted to address the matter that was raised by my learned colleague

 8     at the start of today's session.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

10             MS. KRAVETZ:  Having just reviewed the 2008 statement of

11     Mr. Krasniqi, in particular paragraph 6 and 7, we no longer object to the

12     admission of this statement that has been marked for identification as

13     D226, and this is the first August statement with

14     ERN K013-6454/K013-6459.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  The number of the second of those statements, do

16     you have -- it's marked as D --

17             MS. KRAVETZ:  225.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  -- 225, and -6.

19             MS. KRAVETZ:  I believe 226 is the one referred to in the witness

20     statement.  The 225 is not referred to in this statement.

21             Your Honour, just so we are clear we are withdrawing our

22     objection with regard to the one of them, the one that is not mentioned

23     in the statement; we are maintaining our objection with regard to that,

24     that would be D225.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  You are maintaining it only with respect to D225?

Page 6157

 1             MS. KRAVETZ:  Yes.  Which is the one provided to Dutch police

 2     which the witness, I believe, did not recall -- could not provide

 3     additional information on yesterday when he testified.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic, anything about that -- the one

 5     provided to the Dutch investigator?

 6             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honour, not for the time

 7     being, but I will address you at an appropriate time when I find it

 8     necessary to do at that point in time.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, we'll take as an interim measure that the

10     statement marked for identification as D226 we'll -- marked for

11     identification, will now be received as an exhibit with the same number.

12     Thank you for that.

13             The next witness.

14             MS. KRAVETZ:  The next witness is Avdyl Mazreku, and he will be

15     led by my colleague Ms. Gopalan.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

17                           [The witness entered court]

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning, sir.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the

21     card that is shown to you.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

23     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24                           WITNESS:  AVDYL MAZREKU

25                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 6158

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Please sit down.  Now, Ms. Gopalan has

 2     some questions for you.

 3             Yes, Ms. Gopalan.

 4             MS. GOPALAN:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 5                           Examination by Ms. Gopalan:

 6        Q.   Good morning, sir.

 7        A.   Good morning.

 8        Q.   Are you able to hear me well, sir?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, please --

11        A.   You're welcome.

12        Q.   Sir, please could you state your full name for the record.

13        A.   Yes.  My name is Avdyl Mazreku.

14        Q.   And, sir, where do you live now?

15        A.   I live in Pastasel village.

16        Q.   Where were you born, sir?

17        A.   In Pastasel.

18        Q.   Sir, how old are you now?

19        A.   I'm now 70 years old.

20        Q.   Sir, do you remember giving a statement on the events that took

21     place in your village in 1998 and 1999 to an investigator of this

22     Tribunal?  The statement was given in January 2000.  Do you remember that

23     statement?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Sir, have you recently had the opportunity to review the

Page 6159

 1     statement with the help of a language assistant?

 2        A.   Yes, I did.

 3        Q.   Sir, having reviewed this statement, I understand that you wished

 4     to make one substantial correction.  I will now read out this correction

 5     to you, and you can then confirm for us if you agree with it or not.  The

 6     correction is at page 4, paragraph 6 of the English; and the B/C/S is

 7     page 5, paragraph 4.

 8             Sir, you said in that section of your statement:

 9             "I could not tell if they were Negroes or just painted faces."

10             Sir, you clarified then in referring to Negroes, you meant tanned

11     persons resembling gypsies or Romas, therefore the correction should

12     read:

13             "I could not tell if they were tanned persons resembling gypsies

14     and Romas, or just painted faces."

15             Sir, do you agree with this correction?  Is it correct?

16        A.   Yes, that's correct.

17        Q.   Thank you.  And, sir, having made this correction to your

18     statement, are you satisfied that the statement is true and accurate to

19     the best of your knowledge and belief?

20        A.   Yes, it's correct and accurate.

21             MS. GOPALAN:  Your Honours, I seek to tender 65 ter 05102.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P987, Your Honours.

24             MS. GOPALAN:

25        Q.   Sir, do you remember giving a second statement to an investigator

Page 6160

 1     of this Tribunal in May 2008?

 2        A.   Yes, I did.

 3        Q.   Sir, have you recently had the opportunity to review this

 4     statement with the help of a language assistant?

 5        A.   Yes, I had an opportunity.

 6        Q.   Sir, having reviewed the statement, I understand that you wished

 7     to make one correction to the statement.  I will now read out the

 8     correction and if you could please confirm if the correction is correct.

 9        A.   Go ahead.

10        Q.   Now, in page 2, paragraph 8 of your May 2008 statement, the

11     second sentence reads:

12             "These civilians did not include young men below the age of 40

13     who had fled the village in 1998."

14             Sir, your correction was as follows:  You clarified that not all

15     the men below the age of 40 left the village, as some of them remained

16     with their families.  Is that correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, having made this correction, are you satisfied

19     that this statement is true and accurate to the best of your knowledge

20     and belief?

21        A.   What you read to me is true and accurate.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MS. GOPALAN:  Your Honours, I seek to tender 65 ter 05103, the

24     witness's second statement.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  That too will be received.

Page 6161

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P988, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  That you.

 3             MS. GOPALAN:  I will now read the witness's in-court summary.

 4             The witness is a Kosovo Albanian adult male from Pusto Selo

 5     village in Orahovac municipality.  The witness will testify that in the

 6     autumn of 1998, Serb forces started shelling his village.  Consequently,

 7     the villagers from Pusto Selo and from surrounding villages fled to the

 8     hills.  After two days, the Serbian forces surrounded the hills and took

 9     the group back to Pusto Selo.  There they found a large portion of the

10     village destroyed by fire.

11             The witness will also testify that on the 31st of March, 1999,

12     when Serb forces returned to his village, thousands of villagers, from

13     his own village and surrounding villages tried to flee.  The witness saw

14     tanks.  The forces that surrounded the villagers ordered the men,

15     including the witness, to separate from women and children.

16             The men were then ordered to empty their pockets.  Women and

17     children were searched and sent away.  The men were then taken to a

18     stream where they were divided into different groups and then shot at by

19     the Serb forces.  The witness was in the fourth and last group.  He was

20     injured but survived the shooting with other members from his group.

21             He will testify that on the 31st of March, 1999, 13 men survived

22     the shooting, while 106 men were killed in the village of Pusto Selo that

23     day.

24             That's the end of the summary, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

Page 6162

 1             MS. GOPALAN:

 2        Q.   Sir, I now have some questions for you on your statement.  As you

 3     know, the Judges already have your statements, and so I will just be

 4     asking a few clarifying questions.

 5             Now, let's start with the incident in September 1998 that took

 6     place in your village.  This is set out in the English page 2,

 7     paragraphs 3 and 4, and the same reference for the B/C/S.

 8             Sir, you describe being shelled by Serb tanks, and fleeing to the

 9     hills of Kosnik with fellow villagers, and meeting thousands of others

10     from surrounding villages in the hills.  You also say:

11             "After two days, the Serbs surrounded us in the hills."

12             Sir, I have some questions for you about the Serbs who you say

13     are police.  Sir, what were they wearing, these men who surrounded you in

14     the hills?

15        A.   They were wearing police clothes.  We were surrounded by

16     policemen, but there were also soldiers elsewhere.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, when you say police clothes, are you able to

18     tell us what colour these police clothes were?

19        A.   Yes, I can.

20        Q.   Are you able to name the colour?

21        A.   It was the colour of the sky.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MS. GOPALAN:  Could I call up P831, please.

24        Q.   Sir, shortly there will appear on the screen before you the

25     patterns or the colours of some of the -- of some uniforms.  From these

Page 6163

 1     patterns before you, are you able to recognise any of them as having been

 2     worn or ones that you saw on the men you say were police?

 3        A.   Yes, this one here.

 4        Q.   With the usher's assistance, perhaps you could mark the section

 5     that you identified.

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7             MS. GOPALAN:  The witness has placed a cross on the box on the

 8     top left-hand corner of P831.

 9        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I would now like to move on to --

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Do you wish to tender that?

11             MS. GOPALAN:  Yes, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

13             MS. GOPALAN:  Thank you.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P989.

15             MS. GOPALAN:

16        Q.   Sir, you also say that these men that you saw in 1998 had

17     different patches on their hats and different badges.  This is the last

18     sentence of paragraph 4 page 2 of both the English and the B/C/S.

19             MS. GOPALAN:  Could I call up P327, please.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what I said.  They had red

21     signs on their arms, and they had French hats.  We are talking about

22     1998; right?

23             MS. GOPALAN:

24        Q.   That's correct.  That's correct.  We will get to the hats in a

25     moment.  But for now, if we could have a look at some of the patches and

Page 6164

 1     badges that you talk about.  And shortly some of them will appear -- some

 2     examples will appear on the screen.

 3             MS. GOPALAN:  That's P327, please.

 4        Q.   Sir, are you able to see the insignia on the page before you?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MS. GOPALAN:  Just the first page, please.

 7        Q.   Sir, are you able to recognise any of these patches or insignia

 8     as the ones you saw in 1998?

 9             Perhaps if you have difficulty seeing, you could use your

10     glasses.  Yes, please go ahead, sir.

11        A.   Others.

12             MS. GOPALAN:  Could we go to the second page of this exhibit,

13     please.  There should be further samples.

14        Q.   Sir, now you see some other examples of insignia.  Do you

15     recognise any of these from 1998?  If you do, could you just mention the

16     number for us, please.

17        A.   Number 9.

18        Q.   Thank you.  And is that the only one?

19        A.   And number 12.

20        Q.   Is that the total?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Sir, you also mentioned hats early on in your

23     testimony and in your statement.  Again I'd like you to identify, if you

24     can, any hats that you may have seen being worn by these forces in 1998.

25             MS. GOPALAN:  If we could call up 65 ter 2254 and go to page 13,

Page 6165

 1     which is where these sample hats are set out.

 2        Q.   Sir, as you can see, there are a number of hats on your screen.

 3     Did you see any of these hats being worn by the policemen in 1998?

 4        A.   There were of this type here, and the French one.

 5        Q.   With the usher's assistance, I'll ask you to place a circle

 6     around the hat that you just identified.

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   And could we go --

 9        A.   And I don't see the French hat here.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MS. GOPALAN:  I'd like to tender this page into evidence,

12     Your Honours, before I move on to the next page.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P1000, Your Honours.  I apologise, P990.

15             MS. GOPALAN:  Thank you.  Could we now go on to the second page

16     of this exhibit, please.

17        Q.   It should appear on your screen shortly, sir, further examples of

18     hats.  Just a moment, sir.  Sir, on the screen before you, there are

19     further examples of hats.  Could you tell us if you saw any of these in

20     1999[sic], and if you did, place a circle around the ones you saw.

21        A.   [Marks]

22        Q.   Thank you, sir.

23             MS. GOPALAN:  Your Honours, I'd like to tender this page of the

24     exhibit into evidence, please.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

Page 6166

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P991, Your Honours.

 2             MS. GOPALAN:  And just as a correction to the transcript.  I

 3     misspoke when I said "Could you tell us if you saw any of these in 1998,"

 4     that was an error in my part, I meant "1999" [sic] that's line 6, page 59

 5     of the transcript.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Does the witness's answer differ?

 7             MS. GOPALAN:  I will put the question to him again, Your Honours.

 8        Q.   Sir, you just placed a circle around a hat that you saw.

 9             MS. GOPALAN:  Perhaps we could call up the exhibit, if it's

10     possible.  I believe it was P991.  No.  Okay.  I'll try again.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  The first hat was Exhibit P990.

12             MS. GOPALAN:  And my error was in relation to the second hat,

13     which is the exhibit on the screen at the moment.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  That's Exhibit P991.  Photograph 25.

15             MS. GOPALAN:  Except the marking made by the witness is not on it

16     at the moment, so perhaps I can put the question again and ask him to

17     remark it with Your Honour's leave.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  I think you'll find that the marked one has become

19     the exhibit.

20             MS. GOPALAN:  Which, I believe is P --

21             JUDGE PARKER:  991

22                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

23             JUDGE PARKER:  It will take 5 minutes for the system to produce

24     the exhibit, so you could just check with the witness which one he

25     identifies, if any.

Page 6167

 1             MS. GOPALAN:

 2        Q.   Witness, on the screen before you there are a number of hats.

 3     Could you tell us if you saw the men in 1998 wearing any of these hats,

 4     if at all?

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Do you mean 1998?

 6             MS. GOPALAN:  Yes, sir.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  That's what the record showed.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you please repeat your

 9     question.  It's not clear to me.

10             MS. GOPALAN:  I am sorry, Your Honours, all my questions so far

11     have related to 1998.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  The record reveals 1998.  Page 58, line 17.  Page

13     59 line 9 says 1999.

14             MS. GOPALAN:  And that was the error, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  That is the error.

16             MS. GOPALAN:  Yes.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Okay.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For which year are you asking me

19     now?

20             MS. GOPALAN:

21        Q.   Sir, in 1998?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   You see before you a marking on a hat --

24        A.   I already placed a circle.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And in which year did you see that hat, sir?

Page 6168

 1        A.   In 1998.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MS. GOPALAN:  I believe that clarifies the matter, Your Honours.

 4     My apologies for the confusion.

 5        Q.   Sir, I'd now like to move on.  You say in your statement that

 6     these forces "... then took the entire group of us, thousands, back to

 7     near the school in Pastasel."  This is in paragraph 5 of the English,

 8     page 2, same reference as the B/C/S.

 9             Sir, if you remember, what did these forces say to you?

10        A.   They said that the village had been burned.  They said that the

11     terrorists had been there, and for the part that was not burned, they

12     said see here there were no terrorists, and that's why this part has not

13     been burned.

14        Q.   And, sir, do you know who burned the village?

15        A.   Who?  The Serb police.

16        Q.   Did you see this yourself, sir?

17        A.   No, when the village was set on fire, we had already fled it.  We

18     were hiding.

19        Q.   So how did you know that it was the Serb police that set the

20     village on fire?

21        A.   Because we found the houses on fire when we returned.  They had

22     already been burnt.

23        Q.   Thank you, sir.

24        A.   You are welcome.

25        Q.   I would now like to move on to the incident in 1999, and this

Page 6169

 1     took place three or four days after the end of Bajram.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             MS. GOPALAN:  And this is set out in the English page 3,

 4     paragraph 2; and the B/C/S page 2 onwards.

 5        Q.   Sir, you describe seeing and hearing a number of tanks at this

 6     time.  How many tanks did you see?

 7        A.   Seven or eight I would say.

 8        Q.   And what did these tanks do?

 9        A.   They had turned their guns towards our population.  They stopped

10     about 2-, 300 metres away from us.  I actually didn't measure the

11     distance, but I would say that was how far away they were from us.

12             MS. GOPALAN:  Thank you.  I'd now like to call up P318, please.

13        Q.   Sir, as you've mentioned a number of tanks --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Correction, the witness said 1.200 to 1.300

15     metres away.

16             MS. GOPALAN:  Thank you.

17        Q.   Sir, as you can see on the screen before you, there are a number

18     of vehicles.  Could you tell us if you recognise any of these vehicles as

19     being the ones that you saw in 1999?

20        A.   Yes, we saw tanks.

21        Q.   Are any of these vehicles similar to the tanks that you saw on

22     that day?

23        A.   I don't see any of them here.

24        Q.   Thank you, sir.

25             MS. GOPALAN:  If we could move on to the next page, please.

Page 6170

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The tanks belonged to the army.

 2     They had military colour.

 3             MS. GOPALAN:

 4        Q.   How about on this page, sir?  Are you able to give the number --

 5     could you just read the number out for us, please.

 6        A.   The number, yes, number 6.

 7        Q.   Thank you, sir.  And when you say military colour, what do you

 8     mean?  What colour are you referring to?

 9        A.   Green.  This is green here, I think.

10        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Moving on, you say:

11             "When the tanks arrived beside us, the men jumped down and

12     surrounded us."

13             Do you remember that happening, sir?

14        A.   Yes, I do.  They surrounded us when they got off the tanks and

15     separated men from women and children.

16        Q.   Sir, what were these men wearing?

17        A.   They were wearing green colour clothes, but on the back it was

18     written "policija".

19        Q.   Thank you, sir.  And how many of them were there?

20        A.   I didn't count them, of course, but I would say about 30 or 40 of

21     them.  Not more than that, when they came to surround us.

22        Q.   And once they separated the men from women and children, what did

23     they do?

24        A.   When they separated us from women and children, they started to

25     search the women and took away the most valuable things they had, golden

Page 6171

 1     jewellery they had.  They filled two bags full of them and carried these

 2     bags to the tanks.  They were big bags.

 3        Q.   And what happened to the women and children after that?

 4        A.   After searching them, they ordered them to go in the direction of

 5     Ratkovc.  And they left.  They went in the direction of Ratkovc.

 6        Q.   And what happened to the men at this stage?

 7        A.   They kept us males surrounded.  After the women and children

 8     left, they started to maltreat us, to ask money from us, we gave them

 9     some money we had, they wanted more.  We gave everything we had on us.

10     We pulled out everything we had in our pockets and through them on the

11     ground, and then they started -- continued their maltreatment of us.

12        Q.   Sir, when you say "they started to maltreat us," are you able to

13     explain what it is they did?

14        A.   They beat us up and some -- they beat us, some of us with their

15     weapons butts, and then they started to kick us, and kick blows at us.

16        Q.   Sir, how many men were there with you in this group?

17        A.   In our group there were about 130 men.  I think the number must

18     be the one that has already been identified.

19        Q.   Sir, just going back to your statement, you say that:

20             "After the women and children left, it was at this point that

21     many of the group of police also left the area."

22             Now, this is English page 4, paragraph 3.  B/C/S page 2,

23     paragraph 4.

24             You also say the police --

25        A.   Yes.

Page 6172

 1        Q.    -- left about 15 of them, separated a group of the youngest men.

 2     Sir, can you tell us how old the men in this group were?

 3        A.   Yes, there were some from 14 years of age up to 60 years of age.

 4     Some were 40, some were 30.  They were younger than us.

 5        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, early on in your testimony, you made a

 6     correction where you said that some young men remained behind in the

 7     village to be with their families while many of the other young men had

 8     fled the village.  Could you tell us why it is that the young men fled

 9     your village?

10        A.   They fled because they felt insecure.  They were afraid of being

11     killed.  They killed us elderly people, let alone young people.  That's

12     why they left.  They would have been shot dead.

13        Q.   Now, this group of young men or men that you describe as being a

14     group of the youngest men, could you tell us what happened to them?

15        A.   They were executed before us.

16        Q.   And where were they executed before you?  Could you explain to us

17     how this execution happened?

18        A.   They shot them with their automatic rifles.

19        Q.   When you say "they" who are you referring to, sir?

20        A.   The Serb police.

21        Q.   Are you able to describe what they were wearing, please?

22        A.   Army colour clothes but on their backs was written "policija."

23        Q.   Thank you.  And after they shot at this group with the automatic

24     rifles, what did the police do next?

25        A.   They came back to us, and again demanded money from us telling us

Page 6173

 1     that if we didn't give them money, they would kill us.  We didn't have

 2     any more money left, so they took the second group and executed them like

 3     they did with the first group.

 4        Q.   And how big was the second group?

 5        A.   I would say about 30.

 6        Q.   And, sir, how far away were you from the second group that was

 7     executed?

 8        A.   I was about 30, 40 metres away.  That was how far the execution

 9     place was from us.

10        Q.   So what happened to the third group of men?

11        A.   Again, they came back, again they asked for money, again they

12     maltreated that group; and then they took that group away to the place of

13     execution and again executed them.

14        Q.   So when you say "again they came back, again they asked for

15     money," are you referring to the same group of individuals you mentioned

16     earlier, the Serb police?

17        A.   Yes, the same.  Yes, they were the same people.  Then they came

18     to our group, which they executed later.

19        Q.   And can you tell us what happened to your group?  How was the

20     execution carried out?

21        A.   When they came finally to our group, my uncle, 84 years old, was

22     close to me.  He said, I can't stand up, kill me here where I am.  And

23     then he turned to me and said, Go back -- and he said, Go back and

24     collect money.  Then we held him up by the arms and took him to the

25     execution place.  When we went to that bank, I don't know, everything was

Page 6174

 1     over.

 2        Q.   Sir, how many others were with you in this group, in the group

 3     that you were in?

 4        A.   40.

 5        Q.   And how many of these men survived?

 6        A.   Only 13 of us survived the massacre.

 7        Q.   How many of the men in your group survived the massacre, sir?

 8        A.   Only four.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Now, sir, in your statement you say:

10             "After the killings I heard a Serb voice saying look again, they

11     are moving."

12             And someone else said:

13             "Leave them, they are all dead."

14             This is on page 5, para 5 of the English; B/C/S para 4, page 5.

15             And you also say:

16             "We were lucky it was almost dark."

17             Could you explain what you mean when you say "we were lucky, it

18     was almost dark"?

19        A.   It became dark and I heard them say, They are moving still.  One

20     of them said, Let them be because they are all dead.  It was lucky for us

21     that it became dark and they never returned back to see if any one of us

22     was still alive.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, you've explained to us that a number of

24     different groups were shot at on that day, different groups of men.

25     Could you tell us in total how many men in your village were killed on

Page 6175

 1     that day?

 2        A.   The total number of men killed are 106.  13 survived.  40 men

 3     were from my village.

 4        Q.   Thank you very much, sir.

 5        A.   Some of the survivors had injures on them, some not.

 6        Q.   How about you, what injures did you suffer, if any?

 7        A.   I was hurt on my back.

 8        Q.   And how long did it take you to recover from this injury?

 9        A.   I underwent an operation because of that, and now I still suffer

10     from my lungs and I have become asthmatic.

11        Q.   Thank you, sir.

12             MS. GOPALAN:  Your Honours, I see that it is time for the break,

13     and I have no further questions for this witness at this stage.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

15             We will have a break now before continuing.  We will continue at

16     1.00.  So a court officer will assist you during the break, Mr. Mazreku.

17     We adjourn.

18                           --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 1.04 p.m.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  I think there are now some questions for you from

21     Mr. Djordjevic.

22             Yes, Mr. Djordjevic.

23             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. Djordjevic:

25        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Mazreku.  My name is Dragoljub Djordjevic,

Page 6176

 1     counsel for the accused in this case.  I will have some questions for you

 2     in order to try and clarify certain facts relevant for this case and its

 3     ultimate judgement.

 4             Mr. Mazreku, my first question will have to do with

 5     examination-in-chief led by my learned friend as well as concerning

 6     certain corrections you made in the statements for which you acknowledged

 7     as yours and which you had an opportunity to read.  You also stated that

 8     if you were asked those things today, you would still say the same thing.

 9             However, today at the opening of your examination-in-chief, my

10     learned friend before showing you the uniforms, there were four squares

11     with different colours, she also asked you about 1998 and what uniforms

12     were worn by the members of Serb forces.  You said that those uniforms

13     were the colour of the sky, that hue of blue, indicating the uniform in

14     the upper left-hand side corner which is a blue camouflage uniform as a

15     matter of fact.

16             As I saw in your statements, as well as what -- from what I could

17     observe in your testimony, I conclude that you can tell the colours.

18     First of all, in your statement of the 15th of January, 2000, you say in

19     paragraph 4 --

20             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  [Interpretation] Perhaps that could be brought

21     up in the Albanian, the 15th of January, 2000 statement.  It was admitted

22     as P987 in this case.  Can we have the English and the Albanian versions.

23     Page 2 in both.  In the Albanian version page 2 as well.  This is it.

24        Q.   Mr. Mazreku, look at paragraph 4 on this page, you say:

25             "After two days the Serbs surrounded us in the hills.  When I say

Page 6177

 1     the Serbs I mean the police, wearing black uniforms.  We surrendered to

 2     them.  Some of them had their faces painted and others did not.  They

 3     carried automatic rifles and big machine-guns.  Some had no markings on

 4     the uniforms and most of them as policija or milicija written in Cyrillic

 5     on their sleeves.  They had red ribbons some were on the shoulder of the

 6     uniform.  They had different patches on their hats, and many different

 7     badges, some with eagles and some with the Serb flag, but most with the

 8     four Serbian Cs."

 9             Mr. Mazreku, you are obviously referring to 1998 stating that the

10     uniforms were black.  We know what black is.  And here you said that the

11     uniforms were the colour of the sky.  Can you explain to us why did you

12     mention the colour of the sky, that hue of blue, in this context since

13     you have never done that so far in either of the occasions on which you

14     gave statements?

15        A.   We, in fact, we don't mean black black, but we mean dark blue.

16     That is what I mean by the word black.  Because this is the colour of the

17     police uniform, dark blue.

18        Q.   You will agree with me then that when you say that they were the

19     colours of the sky, that you actually had in mind dark blue police

20     uniforms?

21        A.   Yes, this is how I said it, I put it.  That was the word that

22     came to my mind to describe the colour.  I showed you -- I indicated it

23     with my hand.  I already showed you.

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Mazreku, you are making it much clearer now.  In

25     the same paragraph, you say somewhere towards the middle of the

Page 6178

 1     paragraph:

 2             "Some had no markings on the uniforms and most had either

 3     policija or milicija written in Cyrillic on their sleeves."

 4             Next --

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Very well.  Then my learned friend showed you certain patches or

 7     insignia on the left and the right-hand side asking what were the patches

 8     you saw on the uniforms.  You indicated two of them, but none of them

 9     said policija.

10             On one we could see that it says the Serb volunteers guard, and

11     on the other one there is something else.  There is a combination of

12     letters, but neither of them says police or policija.  How do you explain

13     that?

14        A.   I said so, and I'm repeating it now, it was written "milicija,"

15     it was in different -- it was written on the backs of the police divided

16     in those groups that I mentioned.  There were different groups of police,

17     and they had different markings or signs.

18        Q.   Hold on.  Hold on, Mr. Mazreku, we are not discussing 1999; we'll

19     get to that.  We are now discussing 1998.

20        A.   Yes, I'm speaking of 1998 too.  In 1999 they were dressed in

21     military colour clothes and on their back was written "milicija".

22        Q.   It said milicija in 1999 or 1998?  Please be precise.  Reading

23     your statement one would conclude that that was in 1999.

24        A.   In 1999 I saw written "milicija" on their back.  The day of the

25     execution.

Page 6179

 1        Q.   Precisely, I agree.

 2        A.   31st of March, 1999.

 3        Q.   I'm asking about 1998 now.  The patches you indicated --

 4        A.   I gave my statement about 1998.  I said there were different

 5     groups of police, milicija, during the first offensive.  They were

 6     voluntaries, there were military, there were different groups.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  I know you gave that statement and that is why I'm

 8     asking you this.  Among the insignia shown to you, there were some

 9     written in Cyrillic which said "policija," you did not point those out;

10     you pointed out the Serb volunteers guard patch with some yellow, and the

11     other one was dark blue with a three-letter acronym.  On both of these

12     patches, you could see the four Ss or Cs.

13             I'm asking you this:  Why did you not indicate those patches

14     which in Cyrillic read "policija"?

15        A.   I indicated that there were all sorts of signs or patches.  There

16     were four or five different groups.  Milos, Arkan, Seselj's, they all had

17     their own particular signs.

18        Q.   Were there any of those bearing the sign of the police in 1998,

19     not 1999?

20        A.   I saw patches on the sign --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  On the arm.  Correction.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- Because the regular milicija had

23     it written on their arms.

24        Q.   In 1998 there was the regular police and the regular police --

25        A.   -- of 1998.  This is what I'm saying, that they had these patches

Page 6180

 1     on their arms.

 2        Q.   As well as regular police uniforms, is that so?

 3        A.   Yes, with a sign on their arms.

 4        Q.   Now everything becomes much clearer.  Thank you, Mr. Mazreku.

 5             My next question for you is this:  In 1998 you mentioned the word

 6     "offensive" referring to the Serb forces.  Who was the offensive directed

 7     at?  Were there any clashes between the KLA and the police?

 8        A.   No, there weren't clashes, at least not in the place where we

 9     were.  When the offensive was mounted, there were no clashes.  The only

10     thing we heard was that they were saying, We are searching -- we are

11     looking for KLA members, and they fought against the innocent, unarmed

12     people.

13        Q.   In 1998 in the area of your municipality, had there been any KLA

14     presence?  Not in your village as such, but in your general area?

15        A.   I personally never saw any KLA presence.  In fact, we were, let's

16     say, wishing to be KLA, but we were not armed, we didn't put up any

17     resistance.  We all liked KLA as people.  The entire Albanian population

18     were KLA.

19        Q.   I realise that, but I also realise that the KLA existed.  I'm not

20     saying that you were a member, I was asking you whether they existed in

21     that area given the fact that you knew of its existence and that you all

22     supported it, I conclude that they did exist.

23        A.   No, there was no KLA presence.  I'm talking of innocent

24     population and not about KLA presence.

25        Q.   I'm asking you about the KLA, not about any civilians.  The KLA.

Page 6181

 1     You said you were all sympathetic to the causes of the KLA, where did it

 2     exist?

 3        A.   There was no KLA in our village.  I don't know if in other parts

 4     of Kosovo there was KLA presence.  I didn't check that, but in our

 5     village there wasn't.

 6        Q.   What about the mountains surrounding the villages, was there any

 7     KLA there?  Were there any operations on their part in Podujevo?

 8        A.   No, there was no resistance at all in our village.  We were

 9     people driven out of our own homes.

10        Q.   I have to ask you something else.  We're still in 1998, were you

11     driven out of your homes, or did you leave on your own because you were

12     afraid and hid in the mountains?

13        A.   No, they told us that the Serb police are coming and we left

14     because we were afraid to remain at home.  That's why we went to the

15     mountains.  That is the reason why.  Because they set fire to the houses.

16        Q.   The answer is correct, as you said so in your statement, you left

17     your houses of your own accord, scared of the fact that the Serb police

18     was coming.

19             Can you tell us who it was that told you that the Serb police was

20     arriving resulting in you being scared?

21        A.   Those who saw them.  They gave the signal that they were coming,

22     so that's why we left.  I don't know the name of the person who said so.

23        Q.   Mr. Mazreku, how many inhabitants did your village have at the

24     time?

25        A.   About 1.000 inhabitants.  2.000.

Page 6182

 1        Q.   Mr. Mazreku, was there a person in your village who was the elder

 2     of the village, some sort of a leader in the village at the time?

 3        A.   Yes, we had, but even he wouldn't think of his own family

 4     interest, let alone of others.

 5        Q.   Can you tell me the first and last name of the village elder in

 6     1998?

 7        A.   I don't remember now.  It's ten years ago.  I forgot who he was.

 8        Q.   Tell me one other thing:  The elected elder of the village, is

 9     that person elected for life?

10        A.   No, he was elected every three or four years.  If he worked well,

11     he could stay there for a longer period; if not, they changed him.

12        Q.   When you refer to 1998 mentioning the police, you say that they

13     arrived, adding that there were soldiers at other places as well.  You

14     said so at the beginning of your testimony today.

15        A.   May I reply?

16        Q.   Could you please do so.

17        A.   We left in the direction of Koznik mountains, we were surrounded

18     and caught by the Serb police there.  Whereas below there around the

19     villages, there was army presence.  Personally I didn't see the soldiers,

20     but those who left from that part where the soldiers were told us that

21     there were soldiers there as well.

22        Q.   Thank you.  We've cleared that up.

23             Mr. Mazreku, you were at the foot of Kosnik mountain, that group

24     of refugees comprised several thousand people; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes, during the first offensive, there were many many people

Page 6183

 1     there.

 2        Q.   I will point out in particular when we move over to 1999, we are

 3     still with the first offensive and 1998.  How many people were there in

 4     your view, if you can share that with us?  That is question number one.

 5        A.   You mean in 1998?

 6        Q.   Yes, the Kosnik mountain.  How many of you were there?

 7        A.   I can say we were at least 2.000 to 3.000 people, if not more.

 8        Q.   To the extent you can recall, can you tell me which villages the

 9     people were from who assembled at the foot of mount Kosnik?  Were these

10     only the people of your municipality, or were there other people from

11     other municipalities as well?

12        A.   People from our municipality came there during the first

13     offensive.  They came from Rahovec municipality.  There were people from

14     Ratkovc, Radovc, Medja, Doblibar, Pastasel, and other villages.  There

15     were people who fled in other directions as well.  All I can say is that

16     there were far too many people there.

17        Q.   Very well.  You said you were surrounded by the police forces,

18     meaning that they finally reached the group of refugees.  Once there, did

19     the policemen and their commanders and officers summon heads of villages

20     telling them to take their villagers back to their respective homes and

21     villages?

22        A.   Yes.  We were sent back.  We were told to go to a field in front

23     of the school building.  We all gathered there.  We were recorded on

24     camera.  And then they said to us, You see the village here, this is

25     where the terrorists were.  The part where my house was not burned, and

Page 6184

 1     they said that there were no terrorists in that part and that's why the

 2     houses were not burned.  They said that the KLA set the houses on fire.

 3     That's all.

 4        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Mazreku.  You already said that in your

 5     statements.  In that field in front of the school, were there only the

 6     inhabitants of Pusto Selo who were gathered there, or was it the entire

 7     group of refugees of several thousands?

 8        A.   Yes, the entire group of refugees that was caught by them in the

 9     mountains was sent back to that field in front of the school, and then in

10     the evening everyone left in their own direction.

11        Q.   Mr. Mazreku, did anyone from the police kill any of the civilians

12     on that occasion, the civilians who were there on the slopes of the

13     Kosnik mountain, and later on in the school-yard?  Was anyone killed or

14     wounded?

15        A.   No, they didn't kill any of the civilians, with the exception of

16     some civilians that were taken to the school building where they were

17     beaten and later on arrested.  These were young people that were taken by

18     them.

19        Q.   Thank you.  My next question, Mr. Mazreku:  When the refugees had

20     all gathered on that meadow or lawn, did an ambulance come with the

21     doctors to treat all those who needed medical help, since you say that TV

22     crews were there recording some footage, were they TV cameras or kind of

23     cameras?

24        A.   It was a TV camera from Pristina or other agency.  They brought

25     some food stuffs there.  They distributed some cooking oil and some flour

Page 6185

 1     to the people when the people began to leave.

 2        Q.   They brought oil and flour and distributed them to the people,

 3     they also brought bread.  Was there any bread?  Did they also bring

 4     bread?

 5        A.   Not everyone got food stuffs.

 6        Q.   I have to repeat the question, I admit that it is my mistake for

 7     not eliciting an answer because I asked two questions and I would like

 8     that not to happen yet its happening.

 9             Was there an ambulance with a medical team that came there to

10     treat the people who were there?

11        A.   No, I didn't see any ambulance there.  I didn't see it.

12        Q.   Mr. Mazreku, could you tell me, did you see the commander who was

13     in charge of this police action as you call it?

14        A.   No personally I didn't, and I wouldn't have recognised him.  I

15     never had any contact with him whoever that might be.

16        Q.   Do you remember if your village elder was in charge -- was in

17     contact with the police commander?  Of course based on stories or if you

18     have any direct knowledge.

19        A.   Personally I have no knowledge about this.  It is possible, but I

20     don't know anything about it.

21        Q.   Thank you for your answer.  In the end, Mr. Mazreku, please tell

22     me, you were a citizen of what was the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia at

23     the time, the Republic of Serbia, and the autonomous province of Kosovo

24     which is where you lived.  Do you know who Vlastimir Djordjevic is?

25        A.   No, I never saw him.  I see him for the first time today.

Page 6186

 1        Q.   My question was not in this context.  My question was whether in

 2     1998 you knew who Vlastimir Djordjevic was in the sense of perhaps some

 3     state functions or anything that had to do with his job?

 4        A.   No, personally I didn't.  I was a citizen of the

 5     Yugoslav Republic at the time, but I didn't know who were the ministers,

 6     who were the prime minister.  I never showed any interest in politics.  I

 7     am a simple citizen from a village.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Mazreku, now I would like to ask you to tell me

 9     what education do you have, and what were you doing before you retired?

10     It's obvious that you had some kind of a job or employment because now

11     you are retired.  So where did you work, and what's your educational

12     background?

13        A.   I've completed eight years of primary school.  I worked as a

14     bricklayer.  Now I'm retired.

15        Q.   Could you just tell me briefly whether you worked in a

16     state-owned company or a private company as a bricklayer?

17        A.   I worked for 15 years in Germany.

18        Q.   And after that?

19        A.   At home.  I had an accident; I became an invalid before I was

20     retired.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Mazreku, my next question is whether you spoke at

22     that time, 1998, 1999, Serbian, and whether you are able to read the

23     Cyrillic alphabet without any problems?

24        A.   Yes, I was able to read Serbian.  I completed my military service

25     during the time of former Yugoslavia.  I do not speak the standard

Page 6187

 1     Serbian, but I understand it very well.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  And can you tell me whether you personally in 1998 --

 3     please tell me whether you personally in 1998 speak to any member of the

 4     Serbian forces, either police or the military in 1998?

 5        A.   Had they asked me any question, I would have engaged in

 6     conversation with them; by I wasn't asked anything by them, so there was

 7     no need for me to talk to them.

 8        Q.   You say that they recorded you and you mentioned some agency,

 9     some crew from Pristina.  Was there just one camera or were there several

10     cameras there?  That's my first question.

11        A.   No, no, it was just one camera, and I think it was a police

12     camera, not a TV camera.  Then the Prizren TV channel showed that image

13     to show what allegedly the KLA did.

14        Q.   But please tell, me was there the distribution of food, oil,

15     flour, and bread, was this scene also shown?

16        A.   Yes.  This scene was also shown, to show that they helped us.

17        Q.   Can you tell me, did you notice any reporter next to this camera,

18     well, apart from the cameraman, a reporter with a microphone in his hand

19     talking to any of the refugees?

20        A.   No, this I don't remember.  Maybe there was and maybe they talked

21     to someone, but I didn't see it, personally.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Well, this will conclude the part that pertains to

23     1998 with this question.

24             Now, I would like to move on to 1999 to what is extremely

25     unpleasant for you, and I fully understand you in light of the fact that

Page 6188

 1     this horrible massacre happened there.  Nobody is going to challenge it,

 2     nobody can challenge this fact.  But what I want to ask you is whether

 3     you can tell me -- two days, one day before the massacre, the massacre

 4     was on the 31st in the evening; right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Was there any police presence in your village or not?  Or

 7     military presence?  So any Serb forces?

 8        A.   No, no, one day before the massacre we were told that the police

 9     was coming.  We all gathered together, but they didn't come.  And then we

10     went back home, and they came the following day.

11        Q.   The next day is the day of the massacre; right?

12        A.   Yes.  Yes.  The 31st of March.  They surrounded us at 3.00.

13        Q.   I will go back to the period that precedes the massacre.  You

14     said that you had heard one day before that the police would come, and so

15     you had left and then you had come back because no police had come; but

16     in the day that had preceded that time, was there any police presence or

17     military presence in your village?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Now tell me, did people from other villages stay in your village

20     at that time?

21        A.   Yes.  The village was full of them that night.

22        Q.   What was the reason for those refugees to have come from other

23     villages to your village and no other village?  Did they think that it

24     was safer, or were they guided by some other reasons, if you could tell

25     us?

Page 6189

 1        A.   Maybe they thought that it was safer, but nobody was safe at that

 2     time.  We didn't consider ourselves safe.  You couldn't find a safe

 3     place.  Nobody knew where to hide to for safety reasons.  So they

 4     wandered from one place to another.

 5             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honour, my assistant has

 6     just warned me that our time is up.  And I would like to continue my

 7     cross-examination tomorrow.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.

 9             We must adjourn now for another court takes this courtroom.  So

10     we continue tomorrow morning at 9.00.  If you could attend then to carry

11     on with your evidence, a court officer will give you assistance when we

12     adjourn.

13             We adjourn until 9.00.

14                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.

15                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 17th of June,

16                           2009, at 9.00 a.m.