Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6960

 1                           Tuesday, 7 July 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Good afternoon.  Please be seated,

 7     Mr. Haxhibeqiri.  The affirmation you made to tell the truth still

 8     applies.

 9             Ms. O'Leary.

10             MS. O'LEARY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11                           WITNESS:  FUAT HAXHIBEQIRI [Resumed]

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13                           Cross-examination by Ms. O'Leary [Continued]:

14        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Haxhibeqiri.  When we finished yesterday, we

15     were talking about the forms, specifically we were talking about the

16     authors of crimes and the options that were there.  Did you have an

17     opportunity to refresh your memory about what options would have been

18     there?

19        A.   [No interpretation]

20             JUDGE PARKER:  We appear, Ms. O'Leary, not to be getting any

21     translation at the moment.  The interpretation is faltering.

22             Are you able now to receive any interpretation, Mr. Haxhibeqiri?

23             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Can we try again.  Is there any interpretation

25     reaching you yet?

Page 6961

 1             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  You'll just have to wait, I am afraid, there seems

 3     to be a connection problem.  We just must wait a moment, a technician is

 4     checking.  I will try once again to ask you whether you are now receiving

 5     any interpretation.

 6             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  I heard the witness answer, but no interpretation

 8     has reached us.  There must still be a connection problem.  I will try

 9     once again now.  Are you able to tell me whether you receive any

10     interpretation.

11             THE WITNESS:  [English] Yes.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  It appears it may now be functioning.

13                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14             JUDGE PARKER:  What you are saying is apparently reaching the

15     interpreter's booth, but the connection back from that booth is not

16     functioning.  So with a little more patience.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The witness might be on

18     the English channel.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Is the witness on the English channel?  Perhaps if

20     the interpreters could please speak to me from the Albanian booth.

21     Nothing is coming through.  So we still have no connection from the

22     Albanian booth.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  We are advised that there is a technical problem.

24     It may take up to ten minutes to fix it.  We will therefore adjourn.

25     This is just to keep you on your mettle, Ms. O'Leary.

Page 6962

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Could the Albanian booth please speak so we could

 2     test it once, please.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  We will adjourn for 10 minutes.

 4                           --- Break taken at 2.31 p.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 2.42 p.m.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  We are informed that the technical problem has now

 7     been overcome.  Are you hearing me, Mr. Haxhibeqiri?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  We are receiving a translation from

10     your answer.

11             Ms. O'Leary, if you would please continue with your

12     cross-examination.

13             MS. O'LEARY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14        Q.   Mr. Haxhibeqiri, would you like me to repeat the question that I

15     asked or did you hear it before we went on the technical break?

16        A.   Sure.  I will start to read.  "Are you prepared to testify in

17     front of The Hague Tribunal?"  That was the first question.

18        Q.   And can I just interrupt you.  You are reading from one of the

19     sample forms that you had done with the --

20        A.   Yes, that's the interview form, the questionnaire.

21        Q.   Is this interview form filled in that you are reading from right

22     now?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   But it's representative of the same form that was used for

25     everyone; correct?

Page 6963

 1        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 2        Q.   Now, a primary concern, if we could just focus on -- in your last

 3     testimony you had said, Please describe the authors of the crime, is what

 4     the form says.  For example the VJ, the police, the paramilitary, or

 5     civilians.  Is that what it says when asked to list the author of the

 6     crime?

 7        A.   Yes, I can read that out.  Sorry.

 8             "Were you a victim or a witness to the crime, such as murders,

 9     tortures, sexual abuse, kidnapping, destruction of property, looting,

10     persecution, displacement?  Please describe on the blank page.  If you

11     need more space, you may use an additional blank page."

12             There are five pages here where one could explain what had

13     happened to him or her.

14             Later on, we continue with each individual crime.

15        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Haxhibeqiri.  Very specifically though, I'm

16     interested only in the one part of that form, what it says about who the

17     possible perpetrators were, what options were listed.  If you could read

18     that for us, please.

19        A.   "Please describe the perpetrators of the crime; the VJ, the

20     police, paramilitary, civilians."

21        Q.   And that's all the options that are listed there; correct?

22        A.   No, there is more:

23             "How were they dressed, what uniform, what weapons, what vehicles

24     and other equipment were they using."

25        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Haxhibeqiri.  It does not list on there, though,

Page 6964

 1     the KLA or NATO as a possible alleged perpetrator of a crime, does it?

 2        A.   If it was from NATO, then the witness has specifically said it

 3     was because of the NATO bombing.  It was the witness that specified that

 4     in the description of what had happened to them.  When they described

 5     what had happened to them, they specified these details.

 6        Q.   And so in the narrative did they also describe if it was KLA as

 7     perpetrators of crime?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   But they would have to specify that in their own language, just

10     in their own narrative, not specifically a check box; correct?

11        A.   Yes, that's correct.

12        Q.   Thank you.  I want to move on to your statement now.

13             MS. O'LEARY:  If we could have P1068 put on the screen, please.

14        Q.   And I want to focus first on the statistics you have.

15             MS. O'LEARY:  Specifically if we are focusing in on about the

16     fourth page in the English.  It's also -- it's on page 2 right away which

17     is page 5 in e-court in English, which would be page 2 of the Albanian.

18        Q.   First of all, you said that the last true census was carried out

19     in 1981.  What do you mean by true census?

20        A.   Because that was the only and the last census and the statistics

21     that are being quoted today are from that census.

22        Q.   I am afraid we are having a little technical difficulty, but I'll

23     just ask you some questions without putting the statement at this moment

24     while we get that on the screen.  What censuses were available -- has any

25     census been done since 1981 in Kosovo?

Page 6965

 1        A.   As far as I remember, in 1991.

 2        Q.   So there was a census done in 1991?

 3        A.   Yes, but the Albanians were not included in that census.

 4        Q.   Why were the Albanians not included in that census?

 5        A.   I'm not a demographer, and I don't know.

 6        Q.   But it seems from some of the other numbers that you've given

 7     that the Albanians were obviously a majority of the population,

 8     especially in the municipality of Gjakova.  Do you know of any reason why

 9     you say that, that they were not included?

10        A.   Why?  A state which uses repressive measures and tanks against

11     our -- our parliament and closes down the university and other schools,

12     that state loses the confidence of the population, and that happened soon

13     after the autonomy of Kosova was revoked.

14        Q.   So did the Albanian population boycott that census then?

15        A.   I don't know.  But I know that they did not take part.  They were

16     not included in that census.

17        Q.   You were there at the time, correct, in Gjakova?

18        A.   Yes, all the time.

19        Q.   Why did you not take part in the census then?

20        A.   Nobody invited me.

21        Q.   How do you know a census was taken then?

22        A.   Through the papers.

23        Q.   Let's move on to some of the statistics that we have here also in

24     your statement.  You estimate - because you said that an accurate census

25     was not done in 1991 in your statement here you say - you estimate that

Page 6966

 1     the population of the town - and we're on page 2 here, about a third of

 2     the way down:

 3             "In 1998, 1999 I would estimate that the population of the town

 4     was about 120.000 total."

 5             And that would have been the population of Gjakova city; correct?

 6        A.   Yes.  That's according the last census.

 7        Q.   And you felt that the population had not fluctuated very much

 8     between the 1981 census and then in 1998?

 9        A.   Of course it has changed.

10        Q.   So you are saying that actually in 1998 there would have been

11     more or less people in Gjakova city than 120.000?

12        A.   Could have been more, could have been more, about 150.000 or so.

13        Q.   And how many people do you estimate were in Gjakova municipality,

14     as a total?

15        A.   Are you talking about 1988?

16        Q.   1998.

17        A.   About 150.000.

18        Q.   150.000 for the city of Gjakova, correct, and how many for the

19     entire municipality, if you would guess?

20        A.   No, I'm talking about the municipality here.  And here in the

21     statement it's just the population of the town, of the city.

22        Q.   That's correct.

23        A.   But it's a mistake here.  On the third paragraph, the population

24     of the town was 120.000, but that included the municipality, so the town

25     and the surroundings.

Page 6967

 1        Q.   So it's your testimony today that it was approximately 120-, to

 2     150.000 in the entire municipality of Gjakova in 1998; correct?

 3        A.   1981 there were 120.000 in total, whereas in 1998, 150.000 for

 4     the municipality.

 5        Q.   Thank you for that clarification.  Do you have any idea, any

 6     estimate, about how many people were living in Kosovo at that time?

 7        A.   Around 2 million.

 8        Q.   And I want to focus a little bit further down then, because you

 9     say that:

10             "Since that time," since 1998 you are discussing, "500.000 to

11     700.000 Kosovo Albanians have been forced to leave the country as a

12     result of persecution."

13             So when you say "the country," are you referring to Kosovo or are

14     you referring to a larger area?

15        A.   For Kosova.

16        Q.   So in the ten years of 1988 to 1998, you are saying roughly

17     one-fourth to one half of the population of Kosovar Albanians left?

18        A.   500.000 is not half but is one-fourth.  Mainly youth.  These are

19     figures that I have collected from the daily press.

20        Q.   Correct.  My math skills are not the best but one-fourth I was

21     saying as far as 500.000 but you give a range of 700.000, so I was saying

22     one fourth to one half.

23             When you say mainly youth left, were they possibly leaving for

24     employment?

25        A.   No.  They were forced to leave because of the violence.  They

Page 6968

 1     obviously did not have anywhere to work, but they were also being

 2     persecuted, and they were being forced to join the army; but they did not

 3     trust that state and didn't want to do that.

 4        Q.   Were Serbs or Romas, youths specifically, leaving at that time as

 5     well?

 6        A.   No, they didn't have problems then.  They could do whatever they

 7     wanted.

 8        Q.   You state here that:

 9             "The number of non-Albanians in the town never exceeded 2 per

10     cent."  It's directly under that 120.000 number.

11             If we're going with 120.000 or 150.000, wouldn't that be about

12     2-, 3.000 people that would have been non-Albanian?

13        A.   Before I came to this Tribunal, I read a few figures from the

14     statistical centre of Serbia related to Kosova.  There I read that in

15     1991 the number of Serbs in the Gjakove municipality was 1.475 this is a

16     statistical figure from Belgrade.  So it was 1.475 or -57; I'm not sure

17     about this.  This is something that I can confirm.

18             There were other ethnic groups like the Roma, Montenegrin,

19     Croatians, Bosnians; but the overall figure is no more than 5 per cent.

20     5 per cent of other groups.  They could go up to 5 per cent, but the

21     majority, 95 per cent of the population, was Albanian.

22        Q.   And so by these figures you've looked up, it was 1.475 or -57

23     Serbs in all of the municipality of Gjakova, in 1991.

24        A.   In 1991, yes.

25        Q.   Let's move on a little further down your statement where you are

Page 6969

 1     talking about education.  On page 2, paragraph 3 from the bottom, at

 2     least in the English version, it starts off with:

 3             "Many of the people who left..." that paragraph.

 4             You state that the schools were closed to Albanians.  What do you

 5     mean by closed?

 6        A.   Yes.  The secondary schools for the Albanians starting from 1990,

 7     they were closed.  Initially the police was in front of the school gates

 8     with tanks.

 9        Q.   This is in 1990?

10        A.   Yes, that was starting from 1990 for the next ten years up until

11     the NATO bombing started.  That was the case for all the secondary

12     schools, high schools in Kosova including the universities.  And

13     schooling for the Albanians took place in private homes for ten years.

14             For the Serb kids, there was schools, there were schools.  And as

15     for the Albanian students, they continued with their education secretly,

16     in private homes.  And they were exposed to real dangers if they were

17     found holding Albanian books and Albanian textbooks.  Their books were

18     torn and they were tortured.

19        Q.   Let me just cut you off quickly because we do have this in your

20     statement almost verbatim what you're explaining now.  And I just want to

21     ask a you couple of questions to clarify a couple things I didn't

22     understand about them.

23             When you refer to the tanks - you don't refer to it in your

24     statement - but you are saying now that there were tanks positioned

25     outside the secondary schools for ten years?

Page 6970

 1        A.   What hasn't been written on this statement has been witnessed by

 2     myself in person.  I've seen it with my own eyes.  It's true that it

 3     hasn't been included in this statement, but the statement is not a

 4     complete one.  There are so many things which have not been included in

 5     this one that I have witnessed myself.

 6        Q.   But I believe you were given an opportunity in the last trial you

 7     testified at of Milutinovic et al. To explain anything else that you had

 8     eye-witnessed; the Judges gave you an opportunity to discuss anything

 9     else that was not in the statement; correct?

10        A.   You haven't read the transcript.  I have said it very very

11     clearly that the tanks were deployed in front of the schools.  I am an

12     eye-witness to that.

13        Q.   That's correct.  You did say that.  But at this point, you are

14     saying -- it sounds like, that the tanks were there for all ten years.

15     Is that true, or was it just 1990, 1991?  How long were the tanks there?

16        A.   I didn't say that the tanks were positioned there throughout

17     these ten years.  I said in the beginning.  And that sends a clear

18     message, when you see police presence with tanks outside a school, that

19     means that the school is closed down.

20        Q.   It may just be language here, but when you say "closed down" do

21     you mean that the entire school was closed to everyone then in 1990?

22        A.   Only to Albanians, yes.

23        Q.   But at some point the tanks were moved; correct?

24        A.   Yes.  I don't remember when they were moved, but they didn't stay

25     there for a long time.  But that was enough to keep Albanians away from

Page 6971

 1     school buildings.

 2        Q.   Was it permissible then in 1998 for an Albanian child to enroll

 3     in the school?

 4        A.   No, that situation continued.  As of 1990, the Albanian children

 5     were no longer able to continue their higher education.

 6        Q.   And what about the elementary schools?  Were there tanks in front

 7     of the elementary schools in 1990?

 8        A.   No, those schools were open.

 9        Q.   Did Albanian children continue to attend the elementary schools

10     in Gjakova?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And that's through 1998 and 1999?

13        A.   Yes, that's correct.

14        Q.   And when you're discussing the secondary schools and the

15     university, you said that it was conducted in secret.  Was it

16     impermissible under the governing constitution at that time to set up

17     these, I think it's referred to the parallel school system; correct?

18        A.   Which governing constitution are you talking about, the one that

19     used tanks?

20        Q.   I'm speaking of the governing constitution of the state in 1998.

21        A.   Which state are we talking about?

22        Q.   I'm asking if the government permitted these parallel school

23     systems to exist.  Did they in any way forbid them or try to shut them

24     down?

25        A.   It permitted it.

Page 6972

 1        Q.   Why then did you say a little bit earlier that they were

 2     conducted in secret?

 3        A.   I was talking about secondary education and universities.  They

 4     did permit the elementary education system, but not the high one.

 5        Q.   And you are saying that because some elementary children chose to

 6     go to the parallel school system instead of the existing schools;

 7     correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Then let's talk about the secondary school system.  Did the

10     government in any way forbid these parallel secret school systems or in

11     any way try to shut them down?

12        A.   Well, it tried to shut them down.  I mentioned the tanks

13     positioned outside school buildings, and that's why the Albanians

14     organised themselves to study in private homes.  And this is what they

15     did for a long period of time, for ten years.

16        Q.   But the tanks were positioned outside schools that were attended

17     by both Albanians, Serbs, and other minorities; correct?

18        A.   Only one secondary school was attended by Serb students.

19        Q.   What was the name of that school, if you remember?

20        A.   Hydar Dushe [phoen] high school.

21        Q.   In 1990 was there a tank outside the Hydar Dushe school?

22        A.   Yes, there was.

23        Q.   But at that point the Albanian secondary students stopped going

24     and started attending the parallel school system; correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 6973

 1        Q.   And the Hydar Dushe school remained open then with Serbs and

 2     other minorities?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   What other minorities were in Gjakova that would have been

 5     attending a secondary school such as that?

 6        A.   Bosniaks, Romas.

 7        Q.   And it would have been operating then with a dramatically less

 8     population of students then after 1990 if all Albanian students left;

 9     correct?

10        A.   Yes.  What I know is that every year just one class would attend

11     school from the first to the fourth year of secondary school.

12        Q.   If we could move on to the next topic you discuss in your

13     statement, one more paragraph down, of health care.  You briefly touch on

14     it.  It seems, though, that your main concern of that in Gjakova was that

15     there were two Serbs in high-ranking positions at that time.  I'm talking

16     about the second line of that paragraph.

17        A.   At that time, there was the hospital and the health centre.  Just

18     like in every other organisation and institution, the violent measures

19     were in place; and that's why here the Albanian directors were removed

20     from their jobs and replaced by Serbs.

21        Q.   This is two positions you are talking about, though, here;

22     correct?

23        A.   Yes.  Albanians were removed, and they were replaced by Serbs,

24     Serb doctors.

25        Q.   Do you know when this was?

Page 6974

 1        A.   No, I don't remember, but it is during this period of time.

 2        Q.   But there were other Albanian doctors and specialists working in

 3     the health care centre and hospital; correct?

 4        A.   Yes, correct.

 5        Q.   Would you say the majority of doctors were Albanian?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And Albanians and Serbs at that time, as far as I could

 8     understand here, were receiving adequate health care similarly throughout

 9     the 1990s?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And then you go on to discuss television and media that was in

12     the area at that time.  What Albanian media continued through

13     1998 and 1999, specifically, which television was available?

14        A.   We had one television, the KTV.  In fact, that was the Prishtina

15     radio television which was shut down in July 1990.  The police brutally

16     entered the premises and removed the employees from their offices.  They

17     also had tanks positioned there.  And from that day, this television was

18     closed down and it was opened only after the war.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And we do have some of this in your statement, it

20     should be, I'm going pretty much straight through it, if you want, for

21     reference, to see what was already contained in your statement.

22             You said that you were receiving Serb propaganda at some point.

23             "We got Serb propaganda all the time which was always

24     anti-Albanian."

25             This is on page 3 in the English at the very top.  The Albanian

Page 6975

 1     may be page 3, page 4.

 2             When did this Serb propaganda start?

 3        A.   Immediately after Milosevic came into power.  It started

 4     systematically and intensified in the years prior to the war.  Three

 5     years before the war started, to be more precise.

 6        Q.   Sorry, I don't want to cut you off, but when did those programs

 7     end then, or do they still continue?

 8        A.   When the NATO bombing started, everything came to an end.

 9        Q.   Were you able to access satellite television at that time with

10     Albanian programmes?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And going to the newspapers then, you say the Serbs gave

13     permission for one newspaper; and I'm afraid I'll ruin the name but --

14        A.   Excuse me, when I said another TV channel in Albanian, I was

15     referring to TVSH, the Albanian satellite television.

16        Q.   And that continued to function through 1998 and 1999?

17        A.   The whole time, yes.  That was the only source of information for

18     us.

19        Q.   And there was no propaganda of any kind on that station?

20        A.   What kind of propaganda do you mean?

21        Q.   Well, you classified what was on the other station as Serb

22     propaganda.  I'm asking if there was any kind of propaganda on this TVSH?

23        A.   No, absolutely not.  They conveyed the news of Albanian media

24     from Albania for 24 hours.

25        Q.   Was it a station that supported independent Kosovo, in your

Page 6976

 1     opinion?

 2        A.   That I don't know.

 3        Q.   And then moving on to the newspapers as we were just -- I was

 4     attempting to mention the name of this newspaper, "Bujku."  The Serbs

 5     gave permission for one newspaper "Bujku."  Do you know what group

 6     published that newspaper?

 7        A.   The owner of the MUP is Veton Surroi.

 8        Q.   Were there any other newspapers at that time that were

 9     functioning in 1998 and 1999?

10        A.   Excuse me, "Rilindija" at the time was forced to change its name

11     into "Bujku," whereas "Koha Ditore" is a newspaper owned by Veton Surroi.

12        Q.   Thank you for the clarification.  Was "Koha Ditore" - excuse me

13     in my pronunciation - was that functioning in 1998 and 1999?

14        A.   I don't remember.  It's a detail and unfortunately I don't

15     remember it.  I think it did, but I'm not sure.

16        Q.   The reason I ask is because of the qualification that in

17     paragraph that you say the Serbs gave permission for one newspaper, so

18     I'm just trying to discover if there was more that one Albanian newspaper

19     functioning at that time.

20        A.   I cannot answer this question with full certainty.  I don't

21     remember that.

22        Q.   Thank you.  At page 4 of the English version of your statement,

23     you discuss hearing things and you say that, Up until the time the

24     newspapers were closed down, we reported to them what was happening.

25     It's at the very bottom of the English, I believe.  The very last line of

Page 6977

 1     the English on 4, so it may be 4 or 5.  The paragraph starts in English

 2     with:

 3             "The Serbs had large cannons placed..."

 4             So it may be actually on the next page in the Albanian.

 5             And the line in English reads:

 6             "Up until the time that the newspapers were closed down, we

 7     reported to them what was happening."

 8             What time-period are you talking about here?

 9        A.   I'm referring to the time-period March/April 1998, up until the

10     23rd of March when the police searched and broke into the premises of our

11     council.

12        Q.   So how many newspapers were you reporting to that were

13     operational up until the 23rd of March?

14        A.   I remember "Koha Ditore" and "Bujku" as two of these newspapers.

15     "Koha Ditore" was being published before the war.  I remember it now.

16        Q.   Thank you.  So how many newspapers were shut down in

17     1998 and 1999 if those two were operational?

18        A.   I don't know the exact number of daily newspapers published at

19     the time.

20        Q.   Okay.  Back on the previous page you are talking about firings

21     that go on.  Actually, I believe it's on page 2 back at the beginning,

22     the first page of the statement.  Somewhere in the middle of the page you

23     say the Serbs suffered no problems.  And this is in regard to the 1400

24     people living in the Gjakova municipality; correct?

25        A.   This is in regard to the Serb citizens who lived in Gjakove

Page 6978

 1     municipality.  They didn't have any problems whatsoever with employment.

 2        Q.   But as we discussed prior, it was approximately 1500 people in

 3     the municipality?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   You also state that few Albanians could accept conditions imposed

 6     by the Serbs.  What were these conditions?

 7        A.   Are we talking about employment?

 8        Q.   It's in the same paragraph.  And you are discussing people being

 9     fired, and you say:

10             "The only way to retain your job was to except," but I think you

11     mean accept "the conditions imposed by Serbia.  Few Albanians could do

12     this and suffered the consequences."

13             I'm wondering what those conditions are.

14        A.   Can you please give me the reference?

15        Q.   It's page 2 of the English, it's on your screen in front of you,

16     I believe.  The paragraph starts with:

17             "During this period in Gjakove, people have been ..."

18             Probably about two-thirds of the way down.  The last paragraph

19     maybe.  It's on the first page of the statement for you.

20             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, if I may assist, I believe this is

21     paragraph 4 of page 1 of the Albanian version, it's been formatted

22     differently in Albanian.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  The one starting

25     "Since 1988 ..."

Page 6979

 1             MS. O'LEARY:

 2        Q.   The paragraphs are lined up different apparently on this, so my

 3     paragraph starts at a different part.  But basically I'm looking at the

 4     sentence that says specifically:

 5             "The only way to retain your job was to except the positions ..."

 6        A.   Yes.  If one wanted to retain his or her job, they had to sign a

 7     declaration of loyalty to accept the Serbian conditions and curriculum,

 8     to be ready to work under Serb orders.  The majority of Albanians did not

 9     accept this order.

10        Q.   Was this all positions or certain positions that were asked to

11     sign this declaration of loyalty?

12        A.   Only the Albanians were imposed this declaration of loyalty.  The

13     Serbs continued their employment normally.  The only way to retain your

14     job was to accept these imposed conditions.

15        Q.   What I was asking, actually, was did it apply to all professional

16     fields, or were there only specific professional fields that were asked

17     to sign this?

18        A.   It applied to all professional fields.

19        Q.   Were you ever asked to sign one in your position?

20        A.   No.  Actually, not in all professional fields, mainly in

21     administration and high-ranking positions.

22        Q.   And this was just government positions; correct?  State

23     positions?

24        A.   Yes, correct.

25        Q.   Did any Albanians sign this statement of loyalty?

Page 6980

 1        A.   There was a group of Albanians, policemen, loyal to the Serb

 2     state collaborators.

 3        Q.   Are you saying that only police signed this?

 4        A.   I remember this group of Albanian policemen as the category of

 5     loyal citizens to the Serb government.  They were all from villages.

 6        Q.   What ramifications did they have for signing this, if any?

 7        A.   Who were these who signed these agreements?  None of the

 8     Albanians did.

 9        Q.   But you just stated some Albanian policemen had signed the

10     statement of loyalty; correct?

11        A.   Yes, correct.  But what kind of consequences are we talking

12     about?  The consequences that these policemen suffered?

13        Q.   I'm asking in general, but if you know of anything related to

14     these police?

15        A.   As a consequence, they were ignored by the majority of the

16     Albanians.  They were an artificial creation so to say, and they were a

17     minority.  They gained power as policemen who were loyal to the

18     authorities.  They were looked down upon by the majority of the

19     Albanians.

20        Q.   When you are referring to these people at page 3 of the

21     statement, see if I can find where it is here exactly, you are saying

22     that these people -- it's paragraph 2 in the English, so it may be

23     further down on the page.  It starts off -- at least the English

24     paragraph says that:

25             "These people that the Serbs found were not the intellectuals,

Page 6981

 1     they used people as I've described..."

 2             So are you stating that there were no Albanian intellectuals

 3     working in Gjakova municipality in the 1990s?

 4        A.   Not in the key positions.

 5        Q.   You say that there were approximately 50 to 53 - not sure I have

 6     a reference on this - but 50 to 53 people out of the Albanian population

 7     who collaborated with the Serbs.  Is that an estimate that you find fair?

 8        A.   These were the rumours in the town at the time.  People had

 9     knowledge of this group of 50 or a little bit more than that.

10        Q.   In your testimony in Milutinovic et al., you were asked about

11     human rights abuses, and you testified that you haven't had any case

12     registered in which an Albanian has killed an Albanian.  Is that true?

13        A.   I was referring to the data I personally collected, cases that

14     were reported to the office of the Council for the Defence of

15     Human Rights and Freedom.  I personally didn't have any such case

16     registered in which an Albanian had killed another Albanian.

17        Q.   Despite the cases registered which you said were 1.000; correct?

18        A.   Of persons killed?

19        Q.   No, no, you took 1.000 cases registered?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Despite those, have you heard in general of any Albanians

22     committing crimes against other Albanians during the conflict?

23        A.   I already told you that I took down only those cases that were

24     reported to me by the victims.  I cannot speak of other cases.

25        Q.   I was actually just referring to your personal knowledge, things

Page 6982

 1     you have heard around town, not necessarily something you took in a

 2     statement.

 3        A.   The fighting was between the Serbs and the Albanians.  Not

 4     between Albanians themselves.

 5        Q.   So I'll understand that answer to be a no.  You know of no case

 6     where an Albanian has killed another Albanian in the conflict; correct?

 7        A.   Personally I don't know of any such case.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And we have your interview from the OTP --

 9        A.   I know of one case that occurred after the war.

10        Q.   I think we are going to try to refrain to 1998 to 1999 in the

11     period that we are discussing here today as far as things go.  Thank you.

12             But we have your interview here from 2001 from the OTP.  What

13     other interviews have you given to judicial organs?

14        A.   Judicial bodies, no.

15        Q.   Did you give any interviews to anyone else, a non-judicial

16     organisation?

17        A.   I don't remember.  I've given interviews to the papers, to the

18     media, but I don't believe I've spoken to any judicial bodies except for

19     the ICTY.

20        Q.   Thank you.  In regard to these media interviews --

21             MS. O'LEARY:  If we could have D004-2194 on the screen please.

22        Q.   I'm going to refer to this "Los Angeles Times" article that you

23     were asked about in your prior testimony.

24             MS. O'LEARY:  I believe if we go right away to -- it's -- we only

25     have it in English, I'm afraid.  If we go right away to what is e-court

Page 6983

 1     page 3 at the bottom.

 2        Q.   Do you remember giving this interview?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And at the bottom of this, and I'll just read it so you have the

 5     proper translation, it says:

 6             "The fate of those collaborators remains a mystery.  Many,

 7     including the Jakupis, apparently decamped with the retreating Serbian

 8     forces.  Others, Haxhibeqiri said, were caught by the Kosovo Liberation

 9     Army fighters and executed in apparent violation of Geneva Convention

10     rules governing conduct during the war."

11             And it's referring to collaborators here that you've discussed

12     before.  And I know that Milutinovic you said that those were not your

13     words.  Are those your words or not?

14        A.   Yes, and I have also said that I tried to put the record straight

15     in the "Koha Ditore" newspaper the following day.  And during the break,

16     I can bring you that article of "Koha Ditore" where I put the record

17     straight on this.

18        Q.   That was what I wanted to ask you.

19        A.   This was either a mistranslation or a misunderstanding.

20        Q.   What did you mean to say in that paragraph or what did you say

21     that you think was misunderstood?

22        A.   Please read it once again, if you can.

23        Q.   "The fate of those collaborators remains a mystery.  Many,

24     including the Jakupis, apparently decamped with the retreating Serbian

25     forces.  Others, Haxhibeqiri said, were caught by KLA fighters and

Page 6984

 1     executed in apparent violation of the Geneva Conventions rules governing

 2     conduct during war."

 3        A.   I have not said that bit about they being captured by the KLA and

 4     being executed by the KLA because I couldn't have said that.  I didn't

 5     have any facts.

 6        Q.   So you are saying the journalist put this in himself?

 7        A.   This may have been a misunderstanding.  He maybe didn't

 8     understand me clearly.

 9        Q.   I know in your prior testimony you said that you did print this

10     retraction --

11        A.   Or it may have been mistranslated by the translator because the

12     conversation took place with the help of a translator.

13        Q.   That's completely understandable, which is why I was asking what

14     you had said that could have been mistranslated, if you had any idea?

15        A.   I could have been more accurate if I had the Albanian script in

16     front of me.

17        Q.   I apologise.

18        A.   Can you also read me the quotation which you did earlier?

19        Q.   If you don't remember, we can move on because you said you did

20     print a retraction to this.

21        A.   I can bring a copy of the article in "Koha Ditore" where I put

22     the record straight.  And I have it with me; I can bring it after the

23     break.

24        Q.   That's excellent.  Because you did say you weren't sure in your

25     prior testimony where you printed a retraction, but you did say that it

Page 6985

 1     was the next day, you thought, because you were so upset about what this

 2     had said.  You said also that you would give a copy to the OTP in this.

 3     Have you ever handed over a copy?

 4        A.   I've brought it with me.  I promised that I would bring a copy

 5     and I've done so.  It was published in the world addition of

 6     "Koha Ditore" which is published in Switzerland.  That was published on

 7     the 20th of January or February, I can't remember exactly.

 8        Q.   Of the next year, the following year, because this article was in

 9     October of 1999, so it would have been January of the next year, 2000?

10        A.   [English]  January 20, yes.

11        Q.   Is there a reason it didn't publish for three months?  Is there a

12     reason it took so long to publish the retraction?

13        A.   Listen, I wrote this article the next day after the original

14     article was published.  I read the "Los Angeles Times" article, then the

15     following day I put the record straight with the "Koha Ditore" newspaper.

16        Q.   Well, you said in your prior testimony you would give a copy to

17     the OTP, you would send a copy to them.  Did you ever do that?

18        A.   No, because the last time I didn't have it with me, but I

19     promised that I would bring it to them.

20        Q.   And that was in August of 2006; correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   But you didn't bring a copy or give it to them even in speaking

23     with them this week, you kept it in your own papers?

24        A.   I gave them some photographs documenting the crimes, and they

25     said that there are some which cannot be accepted as -- in evidence, but

Page 6986

 1     you can leave them for the archives.  And this one I kept.

 2        Q.   I'm merely just asking because in your transcript at 1193 of

 3     Milutinovic, you were asked:

 4             "Could you deliver a copy if necessary?"

 5             And you said:

 6             "I don't have a copy with me now, but I can send it to the

 7     Tribunal later."

 8             And it was never sent to the Tribunal; correct?

 9        A.   Well, nobody asked for it.

10        Q.   But they did ask for it in that trial, did they not?

11        A.   No, not -- no.  No one.

12        Q.   We can put the transcript on the screen, if it's helpful, which

13     is 65 ter 5323, page 1193.  And they say:  "Could you deliver a copy ..."

14             Did you not take that as them wanting a copy of this retraction?

15             JUDGE PARKER:  May I ask, Ms. O'Leary, the matter on the screen,

16     did you want to tender that?

17             MS. O'LEARY:  That was his statement, Your Honour.  I believe it

18     was tendered yesterday as P1068.  Oh, you are right, Your Honour, I'm

19     sorry, we did move on to the "LA Times" article.  I would seek to tender

20     that, thank you.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  And that will be assigned D00306, Your Honours.

23             MS. O'LEARY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24        Q.   But to go to the question:  Did you not consider "Can you deliver

25     a copy ..." did you not consider that them wanting a copy?  And

Page 6987

 1     specifically the words are:

 2             "Could you deliver a copy if necessary?"

 3        A.   What was my answer then?

 4        Q.   Your answer was:

 5             "I don't have a copy with me now, but I can send it to the

 6     Tribunal later."

 7        A.   And as it happens, I'm here again.

 8        Q.   But it's now three years later.  Did you not find it important to

 9     that trial to send in the retraction?

10        A.   I said I was expecting someone to ask me for it.  I was expecting

11     someone to tell me, Can you send me that denial.  And if that question

12     was put to me, then I would have sent it to whoever.

13        Q.   You did find it important enough to bring with you this time,

14     though; correct?

15        A.   I did not say it was not important.  I said that I was expecting

16     the Tribunal to call me and say send me the denial.  This is my opinion.

17        Q.   You don't think, though, that you saying "I can send to the

18     Tribunal later" was enough of an affirmation they would rely on when they

19     said "Thank you."  You thought you would be asked additionally?

20        A.   Again, I'm saying it that no one called me to say, Please send it

21     to us.  I didn't know how to proceed.

22        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Haxhibeqiri.

23        A.   You're welcome.

24        Q.   Now I want to talk about people leaving and some expulsions,

25     quickly a few questions here.  You stated yesterday that the Albanians in

Page 6988

 1     the neighbourhood that you were hiding in were ordered to leave and that

 2     was about 20.000 to 30.000 people were ordered to leave?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   When was this specifically?

 5        A.   It was exactly on the 2nd of April.  On the 1st or the 2nd, but

 6     it's more on the 2nd.

 7        Q.   How do you know these people were ordered to leave?

 8        A.   I was there when the police arrived and started evicting people

 9     from their homes, telling them to go.  If you don't go, we will bomb your

10     houses.  So everyone was forced to leave their homes and take their

11     journey towards Albania.

12        Q.   But at that time you also had stated that you were in a pipe or a

13     pothole in the backyard, so you didn't actually see these people leaving,

14     did you?

15        A.   When I saw the people, I was not in the water-pipe hole, but I

16     was looking at what was going on from behind the curtains.  They gave an

17     ultimatum to the people, You've got five minutes to leave your homes or

18     else.

19        Q.   But subsequent to that, you didn't actually see people leaving,

20     did you?

21        A.   Yes, they were all ready with their bags and luggage they could

22     manage to get with them and they were ready to go.  They were all the

23     time under enormous pressure and under threats, and they were anxious to

24     know what was going to happen with them.

25        Q.   The reason I ask is because in your previous testimony at 1153,

Page 6989

 1     you did say:

 2             "On the 2nd of April when they had driven out almost 30.000

 3     people from that neighbourhood, I remained in that pothole because I was

 4     afraid to come out and cross the border because I was an activist and I

 5     was afraid my name would be black-listed.  This is the reason I remained

 6     there hidden."

 7             So it if you were in the pipe at that time --

 8        A.   Yes, of course, I was frightened and terrified that they could

 9     get me.

10        Q.   If you were hiding in that pipe, you didn't actually see the

11     people leaving, is what I'm asking.

12        A.   I said that at the moment, at the time when the police forces

13     arrived, I was in my house, and I was looking at what was going on from

14     behind the curtains of my house.  And I saw them as I left the house too.

15     I saluted them.  And after a time, I went into that water-pipe hole.

16             MS. O'LEARY:  Thank you, Mr. Haxhibeqiri.  I'm about to go into

17     an area where we discussed the periods of time that you are hiding, so

18     this may be an adequate time for the break if Your Honours --

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.  Yes, we will have the first

20     break now and resume at 4.30.

21                           --- Recess taken at 4.00 p.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 4.34 p.m.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  While the witness is coming in, Ms. O'Leary, could

24     we point out that you have been cross-examining on the Milutinovic

25     transcript.  It is not an exhibit, if you need to be aware of that.

Page 6990

 1             MS. O'LEARY:  Thank you, Your Honour.  We didn't make any plan to

 2     tender the whole thing because it is quite long, so I was just going to

 3     read the relevant passages if that's acceptable.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  That's fine.  As long as you are aware.

 5             MS. O'LEARY:  Thank you.

 6                           [The witness takes the stand]

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Ms. O'Leary.

 8             MS. O'LEARY:  Thank you, Your Honour.  And before we begin, just

 9     so everyone is aware, we are now accompanied by our legal intern,

10     Mr. Eric Durand just for the record.

11        Q.   Mr. Haxhibeqiri, I wanted to discuss these periods that you were

12     in hiding, because during this very important period, there's a couple

13     different times when you were sheltered or in different hiding places,

14     and it was discussed yesterday to some degree.  And the first time you

15     went into hiding is on the 23rd of March; is that correct?

16        A.   23rd of March, I left my home from the Hadum neighbourhood and I

17     went to the Blloku i Ri neighbourhood.  I went into hiding on the 2nd

18     when police forces arrived and they evicted the population from their

19     homes in that neighbourhood.

20        Q.   But from the 23rd to the 31st, 1st, 2nd, for that week in there,

21     ten days, where were you?

22        A.   In Blloku i Ri neighbourhood.

23        Q.   And this was at your relatives house, the doctor, with the

24     others, 15, 16 people?

25        A.   Yes, that's correct.  There were eight of us in that house.

Page 6991

 1        Q.   Eight of you.  From the 23rd until the 2nd you were there?  Is

 2     that your testimony?

 3        A.   In that neighbourhood, yes.  I remember one or two days I stayed

 4     in the house of a friend of mine during that period.  The 23rd and

 5     the 24th I stayed in the house of a friend of mine which was near the

 6     house of the doctor.

 7        Q.   So you were in the Blloku i Ri neighbourhood starting from the

 8     23rd, at your friend's, from the 23rd to 24th; and then from the 25th to

 9     the 2nd you were exclusively at?

10        A.   Yes, that's correct.

11        Q.   Did you ever leave the doctor's house between the 25th and

12     the 2nd?

13        A.   No, I stayed in there.

14        Q.   Because I don't know if you recall, but you had said in

15     Milutinovic that you were there a week, which actually from the 23rd to

16     the 2nd would be a bit more than a week, more like a week and a half?

17        A.   The figures have always been approximate.

18        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  But from the doctor's house that's where you

19     say you saw houses burning on the 26th of March, from the 2nd floor of

20     the house, you said yesterday?

21        A.   On the 27th.

22        Q.   27th.

23        A.   But I saw things also on the 26th.  Also on the night of

24     the 25th.  I saw houses being burned almost every night.

25        Q.   When you say "every night," for what period of time?  How long,

Page 6992

 1     when did it start, when did it end?

 2        A.   I'm talking about these dates, the 25th, the 26th, and the 27th.

 3     During all the time that I stayed in the doctor's house.

 4        Q.   And those houses burning yesterday you said were about 60 to 100

 5     to 200 metres away; is that correct?

 6        A.   That's correct.

 7        Q.   And so I'm assuming some were burning closer at about

 8     60 [Realtime transcript read in error "600"] metres but then some were

 9     further on about 200 metres away?

10        A.   Yes, they could be seen from where I was.

11        Q.   And this was six houses you saw burning on the 26th?

12        A.   Yes.  There were also on one occasion ten houses burning, but I

13     cannot remember exactly when -- which was when.  There were two houses on

14     one occasion, ten houses on another.

15        Q.   That's understandable.  I was taking the six from your statement,

16     actually, you had said at page six that you saw six houses on the 26th,

17     so I was just confirming.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Can I interrupt to point out that page 32, line 6,

19     in our transcript, you are quoted as having put in your question 600

20     metres, I believe your question was six zero, 60 metres.

21             MS. O'LEARY:  That's correct, Your Honour.  Thank you.

22        Q.   So how did you know that the houses that were -- especially the

23     houses that were 200 metres away, how did you know that they were

24     Albanian houses?

25        A.   In that area, I'm not aware of any Serb houses.  Behind the house

Page 6993

 1     of the doctor, there is a big building which was inhabited by the Serbs

 2     and further on it was the headquarters of the Secretariat for

 3     Internal Affairs.  Another building which was built by the Albanians but

 4     it was taken over by the Serbs.

 5        Q.   But 200 metres is a pretty good distance away to know exactly

 6     which house is burning; correct?

 7        A.   But when the fires were extinguished after a while, I identified

 8     all the houses that were burned down and I've got the names of the

 9     families to which they belonged, the names of the owners.  You can see

10     the flames, fires burning, even at a distance of 2.000 metres during the

11     night.

12        Q.   But you didn't see any of them being lit, correct, you only saw

13     them when they were actually in flames?

14        A.   No, I only saw it when they were burning.  I have seen many

15     cases, many occasions, when the houses were lit.  When they were set

16     alight.  And it was -- the Romas were being used to set the houses of the

17     Albanians alight.

18        Q.   How were the Romas being used?

19        A.   Are you asking how they were setting the houses on fire?

20        Q.   No, I'm actually referring to what you just said, I was unclear

21     as to when you said:

22             "When they were set alight.  And it was the Romas being used to

23     set the houses the Albanians alight."

24             I'm not sure what you mean, how were they using the Romas?

25        A.   It was the Serbian police who was using them.  They were serving

Page 6994

 1     the policies of the Serbian state.

 2        Q.   When you say "they were using them," are you saying that Romas

 3     were lighting house on fire for the Serbian police, is that what I'm to

 4     take from that?

 5        A.   The Romas have been seen while setting houses on fire.  And I've

 6     also seen policemen who were setting houses on fire.

 7        Q.   So you personally saw Romas and policemen setting the houses on

 8     fire?

 9        A.   No, I saw only policemen.  But there are other eye-witnesses in

10     the town of Gjakove who've seen Roma set houses alight and looting

11     houses.

12        Q.   In your statement you said:

13             "I did not see them set alight.  I just saw them burning."

14             When did you see the houses being set alight?

15        A.   When I went to my neighbourhood, the Hadum neighbourhood, there I

16     saw them setting houses and shops alight.

17        Q.   Okay.  Well, we'll come back to that then, and we'll go back to

18     the period of the 23rd to the 2nd where you are at the doctor's house.

19     And on the 2nd you said you were in a house where two police showed up.

20     This was the doctor's house; correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And who was in the house with you then?

23        A.   The eight of us that I mentioned.

24        Q.   The people who you are referring to as police, who did they speak

25     to?

Page 6995

 1        A.   With the owner of the house, the lady.

 2        Q.   Was everyone else hiding or did they speak to anybody else?

 3        A.   No, the others were not hiding.  I was the only one hiding at

 4     that time.

 5        Q.   And you were hiding because you thought because of your activist

 6     position that the police were looking for you; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And you said:

 9             "I was hiding in the house but I saw and heard them."

10             Where exactly were you hiding in the house?

11        A.   When I saw them, I was not hiding at that point in time.

12        Q.   So when the police --

13        A.   You are asking me this question for the fifth time, Madam.

14        Q.   I apologise, I'm just a little unclear as to where you were in

15     the house.

16        A.   I don't know if you have problems understanding me or linguistic

17     problems.  What do you want to know?

18        Q.   I want to know what happened on the 2nd of April.  I want to know

19     the sequence of events that happened when the police came and where you

20     were.

21        A.   I will answer your question.  On the 2nd of April, about 25.000

22     people were expelled from that area and were directed in the direction of

23     Albania.  So all the residents of that area left.

24        Q.   But there were eight people in the house that you were in

25     including yourself; is that correct?

Page 6996

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And when the police showed up at the door, all eight, including

 3     yourself, were there; correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And so you weren't hiding at that time when the police showed up?

 6        A.   No, I wasn't.

 7        Q.   So you had an unobstructed view of the people who you refer to as

 8     "police"; correct?

 9        A.   Yes, I could see them.

10        Q.   And how do you know that they were police?

11        A.   They were wearing blue uniforms.

12        Q.   And you said in your prior testimony yesterday that one was

13     wearing a light blue uniform and one was wearing a regular blue uniform;

14     is that correct?

15        A.   One of them was wearing a blue uniform and the other was wearing

16     an olive colour uniform.  Military colour uniform.  This was one of those

17     loyal policemen that I mentioned who belonged to that small minority of

18     50 people.

19        Q.   The one in the olive uniform or the one in the light blue uniform

20     was a part of those 50 people?

21        A.   The one with the olive uniform.

22        Q.   And he was an Albanian; correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   I think you referred to him as Mushk Jakupi's son; is that

25     correct?

Page 6997

 1        A.   Yes, he was a member of that organisation headed by Mushk Jakupi

 2     or Musa Ibraj, what is his name.

 3        Q.   How did you know that he was police if he was wearing an olive

 4     uniform, is that a colour you typically associate with the police in

 5     Gjakova?

 6        A.   They were people who had been recruited as policemen.  From 1993

 7     onwards, the Albanian policemen had been expelled from the state organs.

 8     This group, in order to give the impression that there are still

 9     Albanians within the ranks of the police, were recruited by the

10     authorities, and, as I said, they were referred to as artificial

11     creations, as bastards, who did not enjoy the support of the majority of

12     the Albanian population.

13        Q.   So --

14        A.   And were serving the then Serbian regime.

15        Q.   So if you are saying that this group of people was enlisted to

16     give the impression that there were still Albanians within the ranks of

17     police, are you saying they had no real power?

18        A.   They didn't have much power, I would say.  However, there are

19     situations in which they proved themselves loyal to the authorities, and

20     they did have the power to kill, to beat up, and persecute people.

21        Q.   So the man wearing an olive drab uniform is Albanian of this

22     artificial creation you say, and the other person is wearing what?

23        A.   Blue.

24        Q.   Was it light blue or dark blue?

25        A.   Light blue.

Page 6998

 1        Q.   Was it a uniform you are familiar with?

 2        A.   Yes, I had seen such uniform on a daily basis.  It was a police

 3     uniform.  He was wearing that type of uniform.

 4        Q.   Do you know what that person's ethnicity was, is?

 5        A.   He was a Serb.

 6        Q.   How do you know he was a Serb?

 7        A.   I was told that later on by people who recognised him.

 8        Q.   When you were told that, did someone tell you his name?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Do you happen to remember it?

11        A.   Yes.  Domitca [phoen] Avramovic he worked in the Secretariat of

12     Internal Affairs.

13        Q.   So when they came around and they told the people there in the

14     house to leave and to go to Albania, it was actually one Albanian and one

15     Serb who were doing the expulsion at that time?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And at least one of them didn't have very much power as an

18     artificial creation, as you said?

19        A.   Less.  Less than the other.  He was a tool.  I think he was given

20     that task because of the language.

21        Q.   And following that, the police left, and you said that you

22     saluted them just earlier?

23        A.   The police continued to go to every house.

24        Q.   But they left.  Right before the break you said you saluted them

25     and they went on their way; is that correct?

Page 6999

 1        A.   Yes, and I went back to my hiding place.

 2        Q.   You hadn't been in the pipe before that, had you?

 3        A.   Yes, I had been in the pipe hole before.  I had prepared a

 4     strategy in order to rest a little bit.  The eight of us would go to that

 5     water-pipe hole which was 1.2 by 1.4 metres.

 6        Q.   At what point before April 2nd were you in that hole?

 7        A.   On the 26th when it suited me to use that hole as a shelter, as a

 8     hiding place.  The other seven people who were with me liked the idea,

 9     and on the 27th when the houses were being burned and people were being

10     killed, we decided to take shelter, all of us, in that water-hole --

11     water-pipe hole.

12        Q.   So it was sporadically over the course of March 24th, 5th, well

13     after the 27th to the 2nd that you would use that hole when you were

14     afraid that somebody --

15        A.   Not at all times.  Only when the police units would come in that

16     area.  Because of fear, we would take shelter into that hole thinking

17     that that might be the way for us to survive.

18        Q.   But if you are hiding in this hole and you are afraid of the

19     police, why were you not afraid of the two police that came to the door

20     and spoke to the eight of you on the 2nd of April?

21        A.   I didn't speak to the policemen.  As I said, it was the landlady

22     who spoke with them.  I was behind the door, behind the curtain and from

23     there I could hear the conversation, what she was being told by them.  I

24     didn't go outside in the courtyard.

25        Q.   I apologise.  I misunderstood then where your positioning was.

Page 7000

 1     So you didn't actually face-to-face see the policemen who came to the

 2     yard that day, or who you say are policemen, you saw them through the

 3     curtain; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes, that's correct.  You got it right.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And from what distance were you?

 6        A.   15 metres.  About 15 metres, I would say.

 7        Q.   Was anyone with the landlady when she spoke to them?

 8        A.   All of them, I would say, were there.

 9        Q.   Everyone except you; correct?

10        A.   Correct.

11        Q.   Thank you.  And so in your statement when you say you go into the

12     pipe in the backyard on the 2nd then, I'm assuming this is after the

13     police leave you decided to head to that pipe and hide out there; is that

14     correct?

15        A.   Correct.

16        Q.   And you were there -- hid in the water-pump hole for four days

17     and night; is that correct?

18        A.   Correct.

19        Q.   So we are at April 6th now, does that sound about right?

20        A.   The 5th.

21        Q.   Okay.  And so on the 5th and after you come out of the water-pipe

22     your statement says:

23             "After four days I returned to my own house and stayed until the

24     war was over."  Is that correct?

25        A.   Correct.

Page 7001

 1        Q.   Why was it safe to return to your house after the 5th?  Had

 2     something changed, or why did you feel it was okay to go home at that

 3     point?

 4        A.   I took the risk.

 5        Q.   And in your statement you say:

 6             "I knew they were looking for me," this is all on page 7 of the

 7     English, "I knew they were looking for me, I had spoken to my colleagues

 8     from my office who had been released and they told me the police wanted

 9     me."  Correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Why did the police not come looking for you at your house?

12        A.   Not only myself, but all the activists of the council were being

13     sought by the police.  They were looking for me on the 1st and the 2nd

14     day.

15        Q.   And then they stopped looking for you, after the 1st and 2nd day?

16        A.   They called me on the phone.

17        Q.   What day did they call you on the phone?

18        A.   Two days after the bombing started, on the 25th or the 26th.

19        Q.   I am assuming you didn't have a mobile phone at that time?

20        A.   No, I didn't.  It was a land-line.

21        Q.   So they would have called you at what residence?

22        A.   They didn't call me directly, but a friend of a niece of mine was

23     contacted via phone by them.

24        Q.   And what did they say to her?

25        A.   Is this Fuat's house?  And she said, no, it isn't.  And then they

Page 7002

 1     said, Sorry, then I guess we called the wrong number.  Do you know Fuat's

 2     number?

 3             But at that time there was nobody in my house because my uncle's

 4     house, which is in the same courtyard with my own house, was burned.

 5     They thought that it was my house actually.

 6        Q.   At that time you were in the Blloku i Ri neighbourhood; correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And who was on the phone?  Did they identify themselves in any

 9     way?  Who called your niece's friend?

10        A.   They said they were police.

11        Q.   Did you speak directly with the friend or with your niece who

12     heard from the friend?

13        A.   My niece told me about this and then I wanted to speak with her

14     friend in person about this.  And my niece told me that I should run away

15     because I was being searched by them.

16        Q.   Were you aware that you hadn't mentioned this phone call in your

17     statement before or in previous testimony?

18        A.   I failed to mention many, many things because I wasn't asked

19     about everything.  I have many things to say, and a statement is too

20     small for everything.

21        Q.   But you used that as the basis of how you knew the police were

22     looking for you; correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   So it's fairly important to why you were hiding; correct?

25        A.   Yes, of course.  It was a sign.  Not only the phone call, but the

Page 7003

 1     fact that the personnel of the council was arrested on the 23rd and

 2     the 24th.  And the fact that I was told by members of the personnel that

 3     I was being looked for is another reason.

 4        Q.   But you have no way of being certain who was actually on the

 5     phone with the niece's friend, do you?

 6        A.   That was not important at the time.  I only mentioned it as a

 7     detail.

 8        Q.   So from the 5th of April you were at your house?

 9        A.   People were being actually killed.  Phone calls were of no

10     importance at the time.

11        Q.   From the 5th of April you were at your house; correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And that's through the remainder of the conflict?

14        A.   With the exception of those ten days when I went to my uncle's

15     house in another neighbourhood.

16        Q.   What ten days did you go to your uncle's house, approximately?

17        A.   It was in April.  Mid-April.

18             MS. O'LEARY:  If I could have P1069 on the screen, please.

19        Q.   That was the map that you marked yesterday so we can kind of see

20     perhaps where you were for those ten days.

21             In the time that you were at your house from the 5th until

22     mid-April before you went to your uncle's house, did you go out at all,

23     or did you stay only in your house?

24        A.   I went outside the house.

25        Q.   Did you speak with anybody?

Page 7004

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   You ran into people on the street?

 3        A.   Yes, mainly women and elderly, who were moving from one

 4     neighbourhood to another carrying food stuffs with them and going to bury

 5     their family members in house yards.  They didn't dare bury their family

 6     members with a full ceremony in the city cemetery because of the police.

 7     More than 30 bodies were buried in house yards.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9        A.   This too is not in my statement.

10        Q.   Yes, I understand.  You said there's a lot that's not in your

11     statement.

12             Where were the young men at that time if you say you only saw --

13     sorry, I didn't get the answer.

14        A.   This was important for the Tribunal.  The youth were very

15     careful.  They tried to avoid the streets because of the kidnappings and

16     killings.  Had they been found on the streets, they would have been

17     killed or kidnapped or arrested or tortured.

18        Q.   Is it possible that the young men were involved in the KLA and

19     that's why you didn't see them on the streets?

20        A.   Very little.  Very few young men were in the KLA.

21        Q.   Did you perceive the KLA to have a strong presence in Gjakova

22     then?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Do you personally know anyone who was involved with the KLA?

25        A.   No.

Page 7005

 1        Q.   And I want to move on then to the damage to the cultural heritage

 2     that you've discussed in your statement here, and you say at page 3 in

 3     the English that from 1990 all the Albanian statues were destroyed by the

 4     Serbs.  I want to focus on 1998 and 1999 and what was destroyed in that

 5     period of time.

 6        A.   In Gjakove and its outskirts, about 6.000 such buildings were

 7     damaged.  Can you give me the reference, please?

 8        Q.   Of course.  It's on page 3 in the English.  It is approximately

 9     midway through.  And the English paragraph starts with:

10             "I have been asked about any damage to cultural heritage."

11             I'm guessing on the Albanian it might be towards the end of

12     page 3 or the beginning of page 4 as these are lining up.

13        A.   I can't see the page number.

14        Q.   It seems we are having a little technical problem.  Let me just

15     ask you what you know about the mosques in Gjakova.  We can specifically

16     talk about that without your statement right now.  How many mosques were

17     there in Gjakova?

18        A.   Eleven, to what I know.

19        Q.   And in 1998 and 1999 which ones suffered damage in the conflict?

20     How many is fine.

21        A.   The main one, which is the biggest in Kosova.  The one that was

22     built 400 years ago.  Actually, the anniversary was in 2004.  But not

23     only mosques but also old houses with architectural value like the house

24     of Ali Aga and obelisk.

25        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Haxhibeqiri.  I want to focus just on the mosques

Page 7006

 1     right now, and we can move on to other damage as we move on.  But with

 2     the mosques, you say there were 11 in town and you focused on the damage

 3     to the main mosque that was 400 years old.  Was there damage sustained to

 4     the other mosques in town?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Now, yesterday when we were talking about this main mosque you

 7     said you observed or witnessed the damage and I believe you stated:

 8             "Yes, on the 7th or 8th, I'm not sure, I was in the courtyard of

 9     my house when the minaret of the mosques, from what I believe to be an

10     internal explosion, collapsed."

11             Is that correct?

12        A.   Well, whether it was internal or external explosion, that I don't

13     know for sure, but I know that there was this cloud of smoke when the

14     minaret collapsed.  I only saw the minaret as it collapsed.

15        Q.   Yes, I believe in your prior testimony you were asked

16     specifically:

17             "Can we conclude you did not see this directly?"

18             And your answer was:

19             "Yes, the debris fell on my book, yes, and I heard the explosion

20     and later I saw that the minaret was cut in half."

21             Is that accurate?

22        A.   Yes, that is accurate.  I saw it directly.  I had my book in my

23     hands, and I just looked up and saw the minaret collapse.  And the debris

24     fell on my head as I was with my book in my hands.

25        Q.   So the thing I'm confused about is did you actually see it

Page 7007

 1     collapse, or did you hear the explosion and look up and it was in two?

 2     Which was it?

 3        A.   I saw the minaret collapse.  After the debris fell.

 4        Q.   So it's not accurate to say that the debris fell on my book, I

 5     heard the explosion, and later I saw the minaret was cut in half.  That's

 6     not accurate.  You actually saw it?

 7        A.   I saw it as it was coming down.

 8        Q.   So your testimony in the prior trial was not accurate regarding

 9     that?

10             What did I say in the previous trial?

11             MS. O'LEARY:  For reference of the parties, it's at T1201,

12     lines 3 through 9, in Milutinovic.  You said -- the question asked to you

13     was:

14             "So we can conclude that you did not see this directly.  That you

15     only heard the explosion and then saw the fragments that flew into your

16     room; is that right?"

17             And your answer was:

18             "Yes, the debris fell on my book, yes, and I heard the explosion.

19     And later I saw the minaret was cut in half."

20        A.   When the dust and the debris that was caused by the explosion,

21     when the view in front of me was clear, then I saw that it had collapsed.

22        Q.   And where --

23        A.   I saw the scale of damage then.

24        Q.   Okay.  So once the clouds passed, the debris, you saw it was in

25     two?

Page 7008

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Where were you at that time when the clouds passed and you saw

 3     the minaret in two?

 4        A.   In the courtyard of my own house and I was facing the mosque.

 5        Q.   I'm a little confused then because yesterday when you said that

 6     you were in the courtyard of your house, you followed that with:

 7             "At that moment I went up on the second floor and from the roof I

 8     was following the developments, and within five minute, the minaret

 9     collapsed and I saw no one there."

10             So when did you go up to the roof-top of your house?

11        A.   Accurate.

12        Q.   When did you go up to the roof-top?

13        A.   Immediately after the explosion I ran upstairs to observe the

14     situation.

15        Q.   So just so that I'm clear on this, you were in the backyard

16     reading a book, you heard an explosion, there was debris, you looked up,

17     you saw the minaret was in two, and then you went up to your roof to

18     follow developments; correct?

19        A.   Yes.  Is that clear now?

20        Q.   That is, thank you very much.  And at that time you --

21        A.   At last.

22        Q.   Thanks for bearing with.  And you said at that time:

23             "I saw no one there."  Is that correct?

24        A.   That's correct.

25        Q.   So you have no information as to how the damage was caused,

Page 7009

 1     personally?

 2        A.   What I know is that NATO didn't bomb it.

 3        Q.   I wasn't asking you to eliminate possibilities.  I was just

 4     saying you simply had -- have no direct knowledge of how it collapsed; is

 5     that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And as a related matter, when we were just discussing, you were

 8     outside in your yard on the 8th of May, and I believe you said in your

 9     previous testimony it was 13.08 in the afternoon, that's correct, about

10     the time?

11        A.   Yes, on the 7th, that's the accurate date.  On the 7th.

12        Q.   Approximately 1.00 p.m.; correct?

13        A.   It was exactly 1.07.

14        Q.   Do you have a walled courtyard at your house?

15        A.   The courtyard in the direction of the mosque, it was surrounded

16     by shops which were all burned down and I could see them from there.

17        Q.   I'm not asking directly about your view right now.  I'm just

18     wondering if you had walls on the courtyard.

19        A.   In the direction of the mosque, the courtyard bordered shops

20     which were burned down.

21        Q.   We'll move on.

22        A.   That's to say that I had a clear view from the courtyard.

23        Q.   You've stated in both your previous testimony and in your

24     statement that the 7th to the 11th of May was the worst infighting

25     between the KLA and the VJ in Gjakova; is that correct?

Page 7010

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And it's at that point that the minaret collapsed in some

 3     fashion; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes.  What moment are you talking about?

 5        Q.   I'm talking about the 7th of May.

 6        A.   On the 7th, yes.

 7        Q.   And you were outside in the afternoon reading a book, it was safe

 8     enough to do that?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And you weren't obliged to leave as others had been directed to

11     do?

12        A.   Can you repeat your question once again, please.

13        Q.   I was asking since it was May 7th and you were still there in

14     your courtyard, you weren't obliged to leave as you had said many of the

15     Albanian citizens had been directed to do?

16        A.   I did not communicate with them.  I was in my own house.

17        Q.   I guess maybe if I rephrase it.  Why did you stay in Gjakova?

18        A.   Why are you asking that?

19        Q.   Because if the majority of the population is being forced to

20     leave by the police and the military as you are saying, and the police

21     are looking for you, as you are saying, I'm wondering why you were not

22     obligated to leave as an Albanian citizen?

23        A.   I'm saying that I was not obligated to leave, but I said that I

24     feared that I would be caught by the police and during all the time I was

25     very careful not to be visible in my movements.

Page 7011

 1        Q.   Did the police stop looking for you at that time, by the

 2     7th of May?

 3        A.   I don't know.  The question seems irrelevant.  I don't know what

 4     you are asking about.

 5        Q.   Well, I'm asking because at that time you felt it safe enough to

 6     be open in your yard and to walk on the streets; is that correct?

 7        A.   I was monitoring the movement of the forces, and I knew the time

 8     when they were moving around, and there was a time that I felt a little

 9     bit safer.  When the fighting paused, it was a bit calmer.  And during

10     that time I availed myself of the opportunity to do something, to read,

11     and I was probably trying to divert my mind from what was going on.

12        Q.   But you stated three times now then that the 7th to the 11th was

13     the worst fighting, infighting between the KLA and the VJ in Gjakova?

14        A.   Yes.  That's correct.

15        Q.   Do you consider the possibility that the police were not actually

16     looking for you?

17        A.   It's possible.

18        Q.   Now, I want to return to the house burnings that we discussed

19     before and I said I would come back to, because you said from your house

20     you saw a couple of fires each day.  You said earlier today that you

21     personally saw houses being alit?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And in your statement I believe you say:

24             "I saw paramilitaries set those houses on fire.  They would throw

25     small plastic containers with petrol and then shoot them at the houses on

Page 7012

 1     fire."

 2             Did you actually see that happening with your own eyes?

 3        A.   Yes, I've seen it with my own eyes.  And then they shot these

 4     containers and the shop was set alight.  I've seen shops being burned

 5     that way.  Whereas the office of the Council For the Human Rights

 6     and Freedoms was burned, and I've seen that, by using a match.  They set

 7     the curtains alight and then the flames took the whole place.  Within

 8     three to four hours, all the evidence that we had collected for this

 9     Tribunal was burned.

10        Q.   When was that?

11        A.   During these four days.  Sometime around the 5th or the 6th.

12     Sorry, the 8th, the 9th, but that was during this period.

13        Q.   Of which month?

14        A.   [No interpretation]

15        Q.   Well, you've mentioned in your statements before -- sorry, there

16     was no interpretation; you didn't say the month.

17        A.   It was between the 7th and the 11th of May, talking about this

18     period of time.

19        Q.   And you are saying you actually saw someone light a match to the

20     curtains in your office and set it on fire in that time?

21        A.   Yes, I've seen it myself together with my brother.  From the roof

22     of our house which was partly burned and with no tiles on.  Part of the

23     roof was uncovered, talking about the roof of the house.

24        Q.   How far away were you -- I apologise.  How far away were you to

25     see that?

Page 7013

 1        A.   About 100, 130 metres.  Probably closer.  120.

 2        Q.   So you couldn't actually see who was lighting it, but you say you

 3     saw someone with a match at 120 metres away lighting the curtains?

 4        A.   There were about 50 police and paramilitary forces with armbands

 5     and bandanas.  They entered every shop and business and office, and I've

 6     seen a large number of shops being burned.  And there were 20 shops in a

 7     row which were burned by these forces.

 8        Q.   And if it's the 7th to the 11th of May and there's infighting

 9     between the VJ and the KLA as you've testified to, then the KLA was

10     present there too; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.  In the Qabrati Hill, in the suburbs of the town, yes.

12        Q.   But are you telling me in your testimony today that you could

13     identify the person 120 metres away who had a match in his hand lighting

14     the curtains of your office?  You could identify what forces he was with?

15        A.   Yes, judging by the uniforms that they were wearing, yes.

16        Q.   What was he wearing that you could tell from 120 metres?

17        A.   I said the paramilitary forces were --

18        Q.   Please.

19        A.   I wanted to describe what they were wearing.  They were

20     wearing -- they were in camouflage uniforms, and you could see the

21     armbands which were not of the police or the regular army.  They were

22     paramilitaries who were working hand-in-hand with the police and the

23     army.

24        Q.   We'll get to that in a few moments.  But you are telling me you

25     could see the armbands from 120 metres away?

Page 7014

 1        A.   Yes.  Well, I could identify them because I've seen them from

 2     close up too; five metres away.  I could see them as they were going past

 3     my house every day; I've seen police and paramilitary forces.

 4        Q.   Was it night-time?

 5        A.   During the day.

 6        Q.   Can you describe the armband that you saw?

 7        A.   Not only the guy who set the offices alight, but I have noticed

 8     that armband in hundreds of paramilitary forces like that.  As people may

 9     see me wearing this headset, I could see the armbands on these people

10     just like that.  From a close distance.

11        Q.   Well, I'm actually putting to you that 120 metres is a pretty

12     long distance to notice an insignia or an armband.  Would you agree?

13        A.   Then it could have been a shorter distance.  But I couldn't be so

14     accurate, as it were.  And maybe it was 80 metres.  And I could see them

15     carrying towels because it was very hot because of the burning of the

16     houses and shops.  Actually, they were in one of the businesses playing

17     pool, and then they came out and they set the businesses and shops

18     alight.  Ten or 15 of them in that row.

19        Q.   How do you know they were playing pool?

20        A.   I could see them from my house.  Opposite my house there was a

21     business where you could play pool, and from atop my house you could see

22     that.

23        Q.   So you are saying you could see in, you saw these gentlemen

24     playing pool, you saw them come out, go 100 metres away, strike a match,

25     and light buildings including your office; is that your testimony?

Page 7015

 1        A.   No, they didn't go further away.  They were in the shops and they

 2     set those shops alight.  I was about 100 metres away and saw what was

 3     going on there.

 4        Q.   I know that in your statement, and I believe your prior

 5     testimony, you've mentioned that your Agimi firm - I'm going to

 6     mispronounce it - I know you've mentioned that that was burned on

 7     the 24th; but this is the first I believe you've said that your council's

 8     office was burned; is that correct?

 9        A.   It was the Agimi that you mentioned?

10        Q.   You've mentioned that prior, but you've not mentioned that your

11     council office was burned.

12        A.   I have mentioned that in my statement.  And you find that on the

13     transcript as well.  I remember very well three years ago I've said the

14     same.  Just like I'm saying it now.  Because it's very clear in my mind's

15     eye, and I was crying when I saw the offices where I worked were in

16     flames.  And I will never forget that.

17        Q.   Well, your transcript is quite long, I would have to review it

18     again to ensure, but it's not contained in your statement, I don't

19     believe.  And it should be pretty fundamental, would you agree?

20        A.   You can read that on the transcript, if you will.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Ms. O'Leary, is this a convenient time?

22             MS. O'LEARY:  Certainly, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Now, would the Chamber be correct in anticipating

24     you will finish today?

25             MS. O'LEARY:  Yes, Your Honour.  It's quite brief after this.  We

Page 7016

 1     are wrapping up.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Unfortunately, I am not able to be

 3     present for the last sitting; I must be elsewhere in the building.  The

 4     other two judges will continue the hearing under Rule 15 bis.

 5             We will adjourn now and resume at 6.15.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7                           --- Recess taken at 5.45 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 6.17 p.m.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             JUDGE FLUGGE:  Ms. O'Leary, please continue.

11             MS. O'LEARY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12        Q.   Mr. Haxhibeqiri, you'll be happy to know we're going to try to

13     finish this up very briefly here, but I have a few more things I want to

14     clarify.  Over the break, I had an opportunity to look through your

15     statement again and through all of your testimony, and to be honest I did

16     not see that you mentioned that your council's office was burned.  I did

17     see that the Agimi firm was burned, but I did not see anything about the

18     council's office being burned.  In particular I'm concerned about that

19     not being in your statement, because in 2001 you were the chairman;

20     correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And this statement, after it was taken, was read back to you in a

23     language that you understood; correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And you signed this statement; correct?

Page 7017

 1        A.   Yes, of course.

 2        Q.   And you signed it without asking them to include in there that

 3     your council's office was burned?

 4        A.   And there were other even more interesting things that were left

 5     out, things that have more weight.  As I said, the statement is

 6     incomplete.

 7        Q.   But as the chairman, wouldn't that be fairly important to you?

 8        A.   The statement is incomplete.  However, during my testimony here

 9     three years ago, I'm sure I mentioned that, the burning of the council's

10     office.  Something that I saw myself.

11        Q.   Now, is this on Asim Vokshi Street?  Is this where the council's

12     office was?

13        A.   [In English] Yes.

14        Q.   Because on page 8 of your statement in English you do discuss --

15        A.   It's one street below Asim Vokshi Street.

16        Q.   And you did discuss that there was definitely burning.

17        A.   The name of the street is Ilir [phoen] Vula.

18        Q.   You discuss that there was burning, but you did not discuss your

19     own council's office.  Wouldn't that have been sufficiently important to

20     include in your statement to the Tribunal as the chairman?

21        A.   Maybe it was an omission on my part.  Do you think it was a

22     mistake that I did not include that in my statement?  I think that if I

23     failed to mention it then, I'm mentioning it now and the honourable

24     Judges can hear about it now.  However, I will underline it again that I

25     did mention the fact that the council's office was burned during my

Page 7018

 1     previous testimony three years ago.

 2        Q.   And to be fair, I'm not actually questioning that your office was

 3     burned, I'm questioning that you actually saw it from 120 metres, that

 4     somebody who you describe as paramilitary took a match and lit it, inside

 5     the building?  Did you personally eye-witness this?

 6        A.   Yes, I eye-witnessed it.

 7        Q.   Let's move on then.  I have a map up on the screen, it's the one

 8     you marked yesterday.  And I think I want to have you mark on here a

 9     couple of things and hopefully in a different colour than red so that we

10     know the difference.  But if you could mark on there, do you know where

11     the Catholic church of St. James was?

12        A.   There is no church of St. James in Gjakove.

13        Q.   Are there any Catholic churches in Gjakova?

14        A.   Yes, there are.

15        Q.   What are they named?

16        A.   There is the St. Paul Catholic church in Gjakove.  We are talking

17     about the town; right?

18        Q.   Yes.  Where is the Catholic church of St. James then?  Is it in

19     the municipality?

20        A.   I am not aware of a church by the name of St. James in Gjakove

21     municipality.  There are two churches in Gjakove.

22        Q.   When you were asked in your testimony prior, you were asked:

23             "Why is the damage to the Catholic church of St. James in

24     Djakovica not mentioned here?"

25             And you answered - not that it didn't exist - you answered:

Page 7019

 1             "The church did not function.  There was collateral damage done

 2     to it by the NATO air-strikes.  That was an old church.  That church did

 3     not have permission to be built in the first place, and after the war

 4     they built a new church which was the highest building in Gjakova.

 5     During the war it was also mined by the Serbian forces and NATO came

 6     later and demined the church, although it wasn't functioning as a church

 7     at all.  It was damaged, yes.  It was not me who organised this

 8     exhibition."  And here you are discussing a book.

 9             And then you were asked - after discussing a book:

10             "But can we agree it was damaged by NATO bombing?"

11             And you say:

12             "Yes."

13             So I am wondering where this St. James church is?

14        A.   This is the mosque of St. Dao [phoen], a Franciscan which was

15     opposite the VJ army barracks at the time.  Because of the bombing of the

16     army barracks, the new church, although it was next to the army barracks,

17     did not suffer major damages, only some collateral damages.  The NATO

18     air-strikes were very precise when hitting their targets.  They did not

19     bomb civilian facilities.  They only bombed military and police

20     facilities.

21        Q.   Do you know then -- well, let me follow up on that, so you were

22     mistaken about what you were being asked and you thought you were being

23     asked about a mosque and not a Catholic church; is that correct?

24        A.   It's a church; it's not a mosque.  The mosque is Muslim facility,

25     whereas the church is a Christian one.

Page 7020

 1        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Haxhibeqiri.  Can you mark on this map where the

 2     Novi Blok neighbourhood is?

 3        A.   All this part here.

 4        Q.   Isn't it true that many homes were destroyed from a bomb there

 5     and caught fire?

 6        A.   No, that's not true.  Not a single bomb fell in Blloku i Ri with

 7     the exception of the bomb that hit the building of the SUP.  On the

 8     21st or the 22nd of May at around 1500 hours.

 9        Q.   Is that location on this map where that bomb fell?

10        A.   I don't see the legend on this map, so I can only assume.  I can

11     only point out the direction; it's the south-east.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MS. O'LEARY:  Your Honour, can we tender this marked map, please.

14             JUDGE FLUGGE:  It will be received.

15             MS. O'LEARY:  And then if we could have -- oh, sorry.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  That, Your Honour, will be assigned D00307.

17             MS. O'LEARY:  And if we could have P696 on the screens, please.

18        Q.   Isn't it true that NATO heavily bombed the Gjakova city and

19     municipality during the air-strike campaign?

20        A.   In the town of Gjakova, only the military and police facilities

21     were bombed by the NATO forces.  And only one civilian was killed.  The

22     first building that was bombed was the SUP building and this civilian who

23     suffered from this bombing lived next to the SUP building.  He happened

24     to be in the bathroom when the SUP building was hit, and he was killed as

25     the result of the bombing.

Page 7021

 1        Q.   Are you aware of a bombing of a column of refugees in the

 2     Djakovica municipality just south of the city?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   How can you still categorise the NATO bombing as having precise

 5     targets?  How do you explain that incident?

 6        A.   I'm talking about the town of Gjakove.  The column was -- that

 7     was hit was outside the town.  It was in a village.

 8        Q.   So the NATO bombing campaign was only precise within the town of

 9     Gjakova is what you are saying?

10        A.   Military and police targets or bases.  With the exception of that

11     civilian victim, the factory in the north part of the town was also

12     targeted, although it was a civilian facility, but there was a large

13     concentration of Serb police and military forces in the courtyard of the

14     factory.

15        Q.   So what was the military or police target of the refugee convoy

16     in May?

17        A.   I think we should ask NATO about that.

18        Q.   Now, if we look at the document on the screen.  And if we go to

19     page 2, I am afraid, again, I don't have this in Albanian.  I can read

20     out the relevant portion.  We have it in English and in Serbian is the

21     original on this.  It is a Ministry of the Interior report and summary of

22     events from 28 March, 1999.  And if we're going a little bit -- I know

23     you read some English or Serbian perhaps, maybe you can follow along if

24     we are down.  The very first paragraph discusses NATO attacks in

25     Djakovica and it says:

Page 7022

 1             "In an attack by NATO armed forces on the Devet Jugovica barracks

 2     in Djakovica at around 2110 hours on 26 March 1999, the ammunition and

 3     military equipment depot was hit.  The explosion caused a fire in which

 4     the facility burned down.  Enormous material damage was caused to nearby

 5     houses, owned mainly by Serbs and Montenegrins."

 6             Is this the event you're speaking about in the northern part of

 7     the town?

 8        A.   Maybe you are mistaken there, there is no Devet Jugovica barracks

 9     in Gjakove.

10        Q.   Okay.  If we go further down in the paragraph, let's discuss

11     where it says:

12             "NATO planes also bombed the Novi Blok neighbourhood destroying

13     around 40 family houses, which caught fire.  Mark Malota, Morina, Hajdar

14     Vula," it gives some dates, "and Mahkmut Vula all from Djakovica were

15     killed.  It is possible that more people were killed in this attack are

16     buried under the ruins."

17             Is that the area that I just had you mark on the map?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Are you saying that this document is incorrect?

20        A.   It is absolutely incorrect.  There is no grain of truth in it.

21     I've spoken to the parents of those killed from the Vula family, with

22     Mark Malota, I spoke one or two days before the event; or to be more

23     precise, I was with him on the 23rd.  He was arrested by the police and

24     he was killed by the police.

25             On the 26th, a bridge was -- he was thrown from a bridge.  He was

Page 7023

 1     the leader of the LDK branch in Gjakova.  As far as the other victims are

 2     concerned, they were in the Blloku i Ri neighbourhood.  I was sheltering,

 3     and I could see the police forces at 4.00 in the morning escorted by

 4     about 20 jeeps and Pinzgauers with the headlights on only on the first

 5     vehicle.  Those who watched the horror movies of Hitchcock can understand

 6     this situation, and the Hitchcock movies would be quite entertaining

 7     compared to the horror existing at the time.  I'm explaining here how I

 8     felt at the time.  I and other Albanians were persons on the Schindler's

 9     List, if you remember the movie.

10        Q.   Mr. Haxhibeqiri, but we are running out of time.  And I

11     understand you have a lot to tell, but I do want to ask you, can you

12     conceive it as possible that there were fires as a result and collateral

13     effect from NATO bombing in Djakovica municipality and specifically the

14     town?

15        A.   There are no facts supporting that claim, that bombs fell in the

16     town and hit civilian facilities, with the exceptions of the places that

17     I mentioned.

18        Q.   I want to very briefly discuss, you speak about some murders and

19     you list some victims in your statement, and in these you talk about what

20     other people had told you.  Now, isn't it true that you have never

21     actually, in this time-period, you didn't witness anyone being murdered,

22     you only heard about it or saw a body?

23        A.   I saw killed persons myself.

24        Q.   Did you see them actually being killed, or did you see them after

25     they were already dead?

Page 7024

 1        A.   Only when they were already dead on the streets.

 2        Q.   So you don't know the exact cause of death of any of the people

 3     that you saw; correct?

 4        A.   It was sufficient to be an Albanian to be killed by these forces

 5     which had no moral or legal responsibility.  It was sufficient to be an

 6     Albanian.  They had no humanitarian values either.  They didn't feel

 7     sorry or responsible towards other human beings.

 8        Q.   If we go through your listing of what you have here, you discuss

 9     several incidents.  The first ones were on page 7, the 25th of March, the

10     26th, the 27th, the 31st; we go on to the next page, the 1st, the 2nd,

11     the 2nd, and the 4th.  And at all of those times, you were in hiding,

12     were you not?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   When during that period were you not in hiding?

15        A.   I was sheltering.  I didn't fall into the hands of the police.  I

16     don't know what you mean by hiding.  To take shelter means to avoid

17     falling into the hands of the Serb forces.

18        Q.   I think I was using the word hiding from your statement, and it

19     may be -- you do use sheltering at one point on the 2nd.  But when you

20     are in the pipe, you do say, I hid in the water-pump hole.

21        A.   Yes, going into the water-pump hole, that is hiding.  But the

22     rest of the story is that I was avoiding being captured by the police,

23     the paramilitary, or the army.  I was vigilant all the time.  I didn't

24     sleep.  I slept very little during those seven or eight days of terror.

25        Q.   Mr. Haxhibeqiri, it also says hiding for the 26th on page 6 too.

Page 7025

 1     Were you hiding on the 26th?

 2        A.   The 26th of which month?

 3        Q.   March.

 4        A.   As I said, we entered the water-pipe hole when the forces entered

 5     the neighbourhood.  We stayed there for a certain number of hours, one,

 6     two, and then we emerged from there, when we noticed that we were not in

 7     the immediate danger of being captured.

 8        Q.   Well, I put to you then with these individual victims, that

 9     during this time you have witnesses that say that all of this was taken

10     from statements and you did not eye-witness any of these events that

11     follow "I have witnesses that say ..."?

12        A.   Specify please which events you are talking about?  You cannot

13     put everything under one sentence.  Mention the dates, and I will answer.

14        Q.   If we can go -- if you are on page 6 in the English version, and

15     in your statement it's probably 6 or 7.  The reason I wasn't going one by

16     one is because there are one, two, three, four, at least 15 different

17     things that you talk about that you say other witnesses tell you.  And so

18     I'm asking you:  Are these stories relayed from your information that you

19     took from the council and you're just recalling from memory?

20        A.   Which dates are you talking about?

21        Q.   If you look at your statement where you say:

22             "From my investigation I have witnesses that say ..."

23             And the first one is Mark Malota.  And somebody told you this

24     story that you have here?

25        A.   My wife -- sorry, Malota's wife told me the story.

Page 7026

 1        Q.   Did we see Mark Malota's name in that last document, though, as

 2     being killed by a NATO bomb?

 3        A.   Yes.  I said that Mark Malota was one of the leaders of the LDK

 4     party in Gjakove.  He was the first activist of the party in town.  He

 5     was arrested when he was distributing aid to the population, and he was

 6     arrested in the courtyard of the Mother Teresa Association.

 7        Q.   You don't know this from personal knowledge though; correct?  You

 8     know this from witnesses?

 9        A.   This was reported to our office, this incident, and that was done

10     via the telephone.  And after the war, I spoke to his wife and also with

11     the person who saw this happen with his own eyes.

12        Q.   When you --

13        A.   And he recognised Mark Malota.

14        Q.   Mr. Haxhibeqiri, when you discuss these incidents, you say

15     there's common evidence of police and paramilitary.  But for each

16     incident that you're listing, you don't know the specific perpetrators

17     that were there.  You've given no information here.  And I want to know,

18     were you recollecting this from memory when you gave your statement?

19        A.   Listen, I said I spoke to his wife and with the two others who

20     were detained in the same place, one was released immediately after the

21     incident, another one by the name of Gzim Puska [phoen], he was held for

22     the duration of the night, and he was tortured, and he was released in

23     the early hours of the morning, and he was -- he managed to escape alive.

24     And he told me how Mark was still being held, and he was being tortured

25     the following day --

Page 7027

 1        Q.   Mr. Haxhibeqiri, you are recollecting all of this --

 2        A.   Let me finish.  Let me finish.  The following day, the witness

 3     said, I saw him in front of the gate of my house.  He was dead and there

 4     was blood on his head.  Blood-stains on his head.  And when I spoke to

 5     his wife, she said when we -- when we buried him, there were no signs of

 6     bullets penetrating his body.

 7        Q.   You are recollecting all of this from memory; correct?

 8        A.   How do you want me to say these things differently?  You asked me

 9     about the source of the information, I'm telling you, it was his wife who

10     told me.  What else do you want?  Invite his wife here, and she will tell

11     you about the body of her husband.  Or I can bring the file which is

12     about his case that we have.

13             Before -- the last time I came here, I brought the file because

14     there was confusion created between another leader who had a bullet on

15     his head.  And there was confusion about that, and I apologized for that

16     confusion.

17        Q.   I am afraid we don't have that file here.  That's why I was

18     asking.  I want know what your personal knowledge is and what you are

19     recollecting.

20        A.   You have it on the transcript specifically.  We spend half a day

21     to explain and clarify this case.  Alongside the other person that was

22     killed from the Patzi [phoen] village who also died because of the

23     tortures he went through, he was submitted to.  Amidzic Alija [phoen],

24     his name.  He died on the 16th of January because of the tortures inside

25     the building of the Secretariat for Internal Affairs.  And about this

Page 7028

 1     case, I spoke to his wife.  She came to my office, and I spoke to her.

 2     And the following day, I also went to their house and I recorded every

 3     detail of this case.  And I took part in the funeral.

 4        Q.   Mr. Haxhibeqiri, I think we can short-circuit this a little bit.

 5     When you were here prior and you brought the case file, did you leave

 6     that with the Office of the Prosecutor?

 7        A.   Nobody asked for it.

 8        Q.   Would it be fair to say that most of your information has come

 9     from the 1.000 witness statements that you've read?

10        A.   When -- about the cases that you posed questions about, that was

11     my information, personal information.  And the rest which relates to the

12     previous statement, I'm trying to bring to you all the details that I

13     remember, and I'm trying to be responsible and truthful about all the

14     things that I say.

15        Q.   I appreciate that.  We simply don't have the time to, in court,

16     go through what details you have on each one of these, which is why I'm

17     trying to figure out in whole what -- when I say witnesses, you are

18     talking about taking statements; correct?

19        A.   Can you ask that question once again, please.

20        Q.   When you --

21        A.   Because it's not very clear.

22        Q.   Of course.  When you refer to witnesses that say those words in

23     your statement, does that mean it's something that was told to you in the

24     course of your taking statements?

25        A.   That's correct.  I quote witnesses about the cases, about the

Page 7029

 1     cases that I have information about; and I mention name, surname, and all

 2     the things that they said.  And I say witnesses say that.

 3        Q.   When you gave this statement and you listed these things, these

 4     were things that you were relaying from memory; correct?

 5        A.   Yes, all of them.

 6        Q.   And is it possible that the stories have integrated in your mind

 7     to some degree where you cannot be specific about certain details?

 8        A.   What I've said is possible because I have been trying to select

 9     and organise stuff for a book.  These events are not forgettable.  They

10     cannot be forgotten.

11        Q.   And in prior testimony you've quite openly admitted that in your

12     opinion Serbs are the opponent side or that they are the belligerent

13     force and in your frame of mind the Serbs are the enemy; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes, that's correct.  I say Serbian politics, and at no time I

15     have said the Serbian people because it wasn't the Serbian people, it was

16     the Milosevic regime.

17             MS. O'LEARY:  And Your Honour -- I am sorry, please.

18             I would have no further questions.  I would like to put on the

19     record, though, that the retraction that he said he was from the

20     "Koha Ditore" that he mentioned that he could provide to the Chambers, if

21     he could hand that over to the Prosecution or somebody so we could see

22     this retraction that would be -- this is a specific request because last

23     time it seemed a little vague.

24             JUDGE FLUGGE:  Thank you very much, Ms. O'Leary.

25             Ms. Kravetz, do you have re-examination?

Page 7030

 1             MS. KRAVETZ:  Yes, Your Honour, I have re-examination.  I'll try

 2     my best to finish the next five minutes

 3                           Re-examination by Ms. Kravetz:

 4        Q.   Mr. Haxhibeqiri, you were asked some questions earlier today

 5     about the burning of houses.  And this is at page 34 or today's

 6     transcript.  And you were asked whether you saw Roma police setting

 7     houses on fire.  And you said you only saw police and you referred to

 8     having seen this when you went to your neighbourhood, the Hadum

 9     neighbourhood.

10             I wanted to ask you specifically about what time-period you were

11     referring to when you went to the Hadum neighbourhood, if this was in the

12     period when you've spoken about that you returned after the 5th of April,

13     or if this was another period you were referring to when you went to the

14     neighbourhood and saw police setting fire to houses?

15        A.   This was for the whole period of 78 days.  With the exception of

16     the time when I was asleep but during -- or when I was in hiding,

17     otherwise all the time I was monitoring the situation and I could see how

18     the police forces were working hand in hand with the paramilitary forces

19     and the army by burning the houses before looting them.  I've seen

20     columns of people leaving, being forced and threatened to leave.

21     Threatened with weapons and being expelled to Albania.  Being told, Go to

22     Albania; this is Serbian land.  Your country is Albania.

23        Q.   Now, you were also asked some questions about the burning of the

24     offices of your organisation.  When did that happen?

25        A.   Between the 7th and the 11th of May.  It was one afternoon.  I

Page 7031

 1     cannot remember exactly whether it was the 9th or the 10th.  It's most

 2     probably the 9th which is the middle part of the fighting.

 3        Q.   You also referred in one of your answers to my learned colleague

 4     about the burning of the offices of the organisation to seeing a group of

 5     about 50 police and paramilitaries, and you said, They entered every shop

 6     and businesses and office and I've seen a large number of shops being

 7     burned.

 8             When exactly did this happen that you saw this last large number

 9     of shops being burned?

10        A.   That group, I did not see them only on the day when my office was

11     burned.  I saw that group every other day.  They went into the people's

12     houses, looted them, took their cars, and everything valuable inside

13     these houses.  They broke into these houses using sledgehammers and axes,

14     and they threatened the population, pointing their weapons to their

15     heads.

16             And the honourable lady could say they are not included in the

17     statement, but in my neighbourhood there were cases when immediately

18     after the crime was perpetrated, I went to the place where it had

19     happened and I saw with my own eyes in such a bad state.  He was -- had

20     been beaten up and tortured.  And that happened from house to house.

21        Q.   Mr. Haxhibeqiri, we have very limited time.

22        A.   [English] Okay, I know.

23        Q.   And I'm just asking about this specific event that you spoke

24     about, about seeing paramilitaries and police entering every shop and

25     businesses and you said you saw a large number of shops being burned,

Page 7032

 1     when did that happen?  Did that happen over a period of time?  I'm just

 2     trying to understand when it happened?

 3        A.   This one was on the 9th or the 10th of May.

 4        Q.   And where exactly did you see this large number of shops?  I'm

 5     asking about which neighbourhood was it?

 6        A.   In the Hadum neighbourhood.  At a distance of about 100 metres

 7     roughly from my house.

 8        Q.   Now, in response to some questions by my learned colleague, you

 9     have said that in the period, I believe, from the 7th and the 10th of May

10     there was intense fighting in Djakovica.  Was there KLA presence in these

11     shops you saw being burned, these businesses and shops?

12        A.   No.  They were businesses and shops and homes of the Albanians.

13     They were all civilians.  The KLA was present in Qabrati Hill in the

14     suburbs of the town.

15        Q.   Now --

16        A.   This is part of the old Carshia of the old quarter of the town.

17     It's a neighbourhood which is protected by the state.

18        Q.   Now, my final question relates to an answer you gave at page 39

19     of today's transcript.  You were asked about the period between

20     27th and 2nd April and when you were hiding or whether you were hiding in

21     that period in the water-pipe in the backyard of your relative's house.

22     And you said you were not there all the time, only when police units

23     would come in that area.

24             Now, you've told us about the instance when the police came on

25     2nd of April.  Were there other instances between the 27th of March and

Page 7033

 1     the 2nd of April when the police came to the area where you were hiding,

 2     to that neighbourhood?

 3        A.   Yes.  On the 27th and the 31st of March, I described one occasion

 4     when there were police forces arriving early morning.  They burned a

 5     number of houses, and they killed eight people.  In the meanwhile, on the

 6     27th, they detained another 11 people from another family.  That was in

 7     the Qerkezi [phoen] family.  Six of them from one family, the Qerkezi

 8     family.  The father and his four sons.

 9        Q.   Now, you've given us two dates, the 27th of March and the 31st,

10     and you've told us what happened on the 27th of March, what happened on

11     the 31st?

12        A.   The 31st is another such date when six people were arrested.

13     Just like on the 27th, the people who were arrested on the 27th and who

14     were killed on the 27th, on the 31st, and later, their bodies were buried

15     with no ceremony and they were exhumed a week later and they were sent in

16     unknown direction.  After the war, they identified more than 1.000 bodies

17     or body remains which had been buried in the cemetery -- at a cemetery in

18     Belgrade or that were found in the Danube, and in Batajnica.  To this

19     day, there are people who are missing.  There were people who went

20     missing in these dates.  And the bodies have never been found.

21        Q.   Thank you for your answers.

22             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honours, I have no further questions, and I

23     apologise for going over time.

24             JUDGE FLUGGE:  Thank you very much, Ms. Kravetz.  This,

25     Mr. Haxhibeqiri, is the end of your examination.  The Chamber would like

Page 7034

 1     to thank you for the assistance you gave us to find out the truth.

 2     Thank you very much, again, and now you are free to return to your home.

 3     Thank you very much.  And the Court Officer will show you out.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for giving me the

 5     opportunity to testify.

 6             JUDGE FLUGGE:  And then we have to adjourn now and resume

 7     tomorrow at 9.00 in Courtroom I.

 8                           [The witness withdrew]

 9                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.07 p.m.,

10                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 8th day of

11                           July, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.