1 Tuesday, 14 July 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning to those here and good morning to
6 those waiting in Pristina.
7 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Good morning, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Popaj is there, I see.
9 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honour, he is. We can
10 hear you loud and clear.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Splendid.
12 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] However, I can only hear the
13 Albanian channel. If one of our technicians would be able to call on the
14 office channel here, I would be able to get the English channel as well.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
16 We hope that will be corrected, but in the meantime would you
17 show the witness the affirmation card if you have it.
18 I would say to the witness, do you affirm that the evidence you
19 will give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
20 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
21 JUDGE PARKER: The witness appears to be speaking to us, but we
22 hear no sound.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I declare to speak the truth.
24 WITNESS: SABRI POPAJ
25 [Witness appeared via videolink]
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Please sit down. I see that
3 our telephone call has now reached the Court Officer. He may be able to
4 hear me in an English translation from now on.
5 Now, we have some questions for you this morning, and I will
6 start by asking Mr. Behar to continue with some questions.
7 MR. BEHAR: Thank you, Your Honours.
8 Examination by Mr. Behar:
9 Q. Good morning, sir. Thank you very much for joining us this
10 morning. I know it wasn't easy for you to be here today. Sir, can we
11 begin by having you state your full name and date of birth for the
13 A. I am Sabri Popaj. I was born on the 5th of August, 1959.
14 Q. I understand, sir, that you were born and you grew up in
15 Bela Crkva, in the Rahovec municipality; is that correct?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. Sir, I understand that on the 12th, 13th, and 14th of
18 June of 1999 you gave a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor about
19 the events that you experienced in Kosovo; is that correct?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. And I understand that you also made certain corrections or
22 clarifications to that statement on the 5th of June, 2002; is that
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. Have you had the opportunity to read those statements before
1 coming to court today?
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 Q. And other than the changes that you made previously when you
4 testified in the Milutinovic case, are you satisfied that the information
5 that's contained in those statements is true and accurate to the best of
6 your knowledge and belief?
7 A. Yes, it is true and accurate.
8 Q. Thank you, sir.
9 MR. BEHAR: Your Honours, I would seek to tender that statement
10 and the addendum as well.
11 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received.
12 MR. BEHAR: Yes, the 65 ter number they're both under
13 02445 [sic].
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be P01082.
15 MR. BEHAR:
16 Q. Sir, do you recall testifying at the trial of Milan Milutinovic
17 on the 1st and 2nd of November of 2006?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And did you have a chance to review the transcript of your
20 testimony in that trial?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I understand there are a couple of things that you'd like to
23 clarify that are presently recorded in the transcript. I'll take you to
24 those sections and I'll just ask for your comments. I'm going to be
25 referring to the transcript which is at 65 ter 5338, but I'll just read
1 them aloud to you, sir, so we can have the translation. My first
2 reference is at page 5667 and lines 7 and 8 read:
3 "Later on we took the body of Feim Popaj, Alban Popaj,
4 Hysni Popaj, and Qamil Zhuniqi and took their bodies to Xerxe ..."
5 I understand there was a clarification or a correction you would
6 like to make to that, sir?
7 JUDGE PARKER: Just before you do.
8 Mr. Popovic.
9 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. In
10 principle, we object to this kind of introducing corrections to the
11 transcript, as testified in the Milutinovic case. We believe the
12 Prosecutor could have done this differently by putting questions that
13 were put in the original transcript and the witness could have corrected
14 the things he thought necessary, but correcting in this way with the
15 other possibility existing we believe is not in the interests of justice.
16 That was the gist of my objection.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. I think something similar has been
18 objected several times in the past. As a matter of principle, we do not
19 agree. We would agree if the correction was being suggested by counsel.
20 All he is doing is saying there is a passage we understand you wish to
21 correct and leaving it to the witness to indicate what change the witness
23 And on that basis, we think it a convenient and practical method
24 to proceed.
25 Yes, Mr. Behar, please continue.
1 MR. BEHAR: Thank you, Your Honours.
2 Q. Mr. Popaj, do you want me to read to you that passage again or
3 are you able to answer?
4 A. I can make the correction now. These people were not bodies,
5 dead bodies, but they were survivors. Hysni Popaj and Alban Popaj died
6 later. The other people are still living.
7 Q. And just to focus you again on that, sir. When you -- those
8 names there, and I'll read them to you Feim Popaj, Alban Popaj,
9 Hysni Popaj and Qamil Zhuniqi -- maybe I should read you the section just
10 to give you the context.
11 MR. BEHAR: If I could just have a moment's indulgence.
12 Q. So your answer was:
13 "My wife went to the spot and saw that they were all executed,
14 then she returned. She came to me and she told me that everybody was
15 executed. Later on we took the body of Feim Popaj, Alban Popaj,
16 Hysni Popaj, and Qamil Zhuniqi and took their bodies to Xerxe."
17 Now, again, sir, can you comment on what if anything you wanted
18 to change about that?
19 A. Yes, the correction is this: Qamil Zhuniqi was dead there, and
20 we did not take his body. Sezai Zhuniqi, we took him. Alban Popaj,
21 Hysni Popaj, Shukri Gashi, he also was wounded --
22 Q. Right. So I think you've now made a couple of changes, sir.
23 Just let me know if I have this correct. It says "body" there, but you
24 are indicating that you were taking the bodies of survivors; is that
1 A. Yes, they were alive. Eight people were alive when we took them.
2 Two of them died. One of them died at 6.00 p.m., while the other one
3 died on the 26th at 1.00 p.m.
4 Q. Thank you. And there was a second thing I think you changed was
5 that the name Qamil Zhuniqi you've given us a new name you say that
6 should be Sezai Zhuniqi; is that correct?
7 A. Sezai Zhuniqi, yes. And he died in 2006.
8 Q. Thank you, sir. My next reference is to page 5679 of the
9 transcript. Just very briefly, lines 10 and 11 here, sir, they were part
10 of a question that you went on to answer in your testimony and the
11 question read:
12 "And if you could explain, how could you see the explosion of all
13 three churches, as you say in your correction today?"
14 Is there something you wanted to clarify about that question and
15 your subsequent answer?
16 A. My answer was three mosques not three churches. There are no
17 churches in Bellacerka, Rogove, or Celine, there have never been.
18 Q. Thank you, sir. Next, my next reference is at page 5685.
19 Line 25 on that page, sir, states:
20 "In Celine it was either on the 12th or 13th of April when they
21 brought the eight bodies ..."
22 And then it says:
23 "They brought Sefedin Sahani with his entire family ..."
24 Is there something you want to say about that?
25 A. Sefedin Hasani. Setadin Hasani with five members of his family:
1 Muhamet Rexhepi, Hajdar Rexhepi, and Sakip Rexhepi. These were the eight
2 people that were brought.
3 Q. Thank you. And just for the transcript is it correct was it
4 Setadin Hasani, S-e-t-a-d-i-n, that you said?
5 A. Hasani, yes, yes, that's the name, Setadin Hasani.
6 Q. Thank you, sir. And the final comment I'll ask you for is at
7 page 5708.
8 At lines 16 and 17 you state:
9 "That is true because until the 4th of May, I was in Xerxe. On
10 the 4th of May, the inhabitants of Xerxe left in the direction of
11 Potoqan ..."
12 Is there something that you'd like to explain about that line,
14 A. On the 4th of May, the people of Xerxe were forced out of their
15 village and they were sent in the direction of Prizren and then towards
17 Q. And so, in your testimony, sir, where it refers to Potoqan there,
18 are you able to say what you intended by that or why, to your knowledge,
19 it may have said "Potoqan" at that point?
20 A. I did not say that. They did not go towards Potoqan. They went
21 towards Prizren and then Albania
22 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir. Having made those comments for us, sir,
23 does the transcript now accurately reflect your evidence and would you
24 testify to those same facts again today?
25 A. My testimony is correct and it reflects what I saw and
1 experienced myself.
2 Q. Thank you, sir.
3 MR. BEHAR: Your Honours, I would seek to tender that transcript
4 it's 65 ter 05338.
5 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01083.
7 MR. BEHAR: Thank you.
8 And just a quick note, Your Honour, I think I misspoke earlier
9 when I referenced the 65 ter number for the statements, I believe it was
10 02446, and I may have said 02445.
11 Your Honours, I would also like to tender a number of exhibits
12 that were tendered in association with Mr. Popaj's testimony in the
13 Milutinovic case. I can go through them. There's about eight. And I
14 can just provide the number and a brief description. The first four
15 exhibits are aerial photographs that were marked by the witness in his
16 prior testimony. The first is 05018.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Are you proposing these be dealt with separately?
18 MR. BEHAR: I think that's easiest if it's --
19 JUDGE PARKER: Very well, that will be received.
20 Sorry, Mr. Popovic.
21 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Defence does have to
22 object to this way of seeking to tender such documents. First of all,
23 these are aerial images that the witness marked certain things on. The
24 explanation as to what the marked locations are is in the transcript of
25 the Milutinovic case; however, if we look at the transcript we can
1 conclude that after that it was absolutely unclear what it was that was
2 marked on the maps and photographs and what the reason for marking them
3 was. I can agree with the fact that this can be further clarified by
4 Defence, but I believe it would be more purposeful and simple if the
5 witness ...
6 First of all, we are talking about four aerial photographs of
7 Bela Crkva, I don't mean the two photographs with the mosques in which he
8 marked minarets; that is not something we object to. But the remaining
9 four photographs with the numbers and marked roads and little squares,
10 realistically speaking, do not tell us much. For the Chamber to have a
11 full insight into what it was that the witness marked, we believe it
12 would be advisable for the witness to repeat the exercise and mark those
13 things on the photographs again. Thank you.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Popovic. There are two things
15 here. The first is for the Chamber to fully understand the evidence of
16 the witness given at the previous trial, and these exhibits are ones
17 which the witness refers to specifically in his evidence and marks and
18 explains those markings in the transcript. Now, for us then to
19 understand his evidence at the trial, these aerial photographs are
20 relevant for that purpose.
21 The second purpose is for us to understand fully for the purposes
22 of our present trial what relevance those photographs may have. The two
23 objectives will often be met by the one photograph and one marking, but
24 if it is the view of counsel that there is something material to this
25 trial which is unclear from the transcript and the markings, that is a
1 matter which should be dealt with in this trial as a matter of
2 clarification of the evidence. And that is in part what is being done at
3 the moment by the Prosecution, and in due course you will have an
4 opportunity in cross-examination to do the same if it is felt that there
5 is something about the marking which is unclear or incomplete or wrong
6 for the purposes of our present trial.
7 So at least for the moment on the basis of understanding and
8 receiving the evidence given at the previous trial, we will receive these
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 05018 will be
11 Exhibit P01084.
12 MR. BEHAR: The next aerial photograph is 05019.
13 THE REGISTRAR: 05019 will be Exhibit P01085, Your Honours.
14 MR. BEHAR: And then 05020.
15 JUDGE PARKER: That too will be received.
16 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P01086, Your Honours.
17 MR. BEHAR: And 05021.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, it will be received.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01087.
20 MR. BEHAR: The next exhibit 00094, those are photographs of
21 victims of the Bela Crkva massacre as identified by the witness in
23 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Those photographs will be Exhibit P01088,
25 Your Honours.
1 MR. BEHAR: Two following exhibits are marked photographs of
2 mosques 5022.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P01089, Your Honours.
5 MR. BEHAR: And 05023.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01090.
8 MR. BEHAR: And then there are two final photographs, aerial
9 photographs, that were marked by the witness. The first is 05024.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
11 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P01091, Your Honours.
12 MR. BEHAR: And the final exhibit is 05025.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P01092, Your Honours.
15 MR. BEHAR: Thank you very much. I can just note briefly for the
16 record there are two exhibits that were reference that we're not seeking
17 to tender because they're already in evidence. 65 ter 01800 is currently
18 in evidence as P00638. And 65 ter number 02445 is already in evidence as
20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
21 MR. BEHAR: Thank you.
22 I can now provide a summary of Mr. Popaj's evidence.
23 Mr. Popaj is a Kosovar Albanian Muslim from the village of
24 Bela Crkva in the municipality of Rahovec
25 Serb police and military in the week prior to the 24th of March, 1999
1 and he describes that on the 25th of March, 1999, tanks set up positions
2 overlooking the village and automatic weapons were fired towards the
4 He describes helping 14 civilians to cross Belles stream that
5 day. After leaving the group, he saw Serb policemen approaching the
6 steam, shooting, and shouting obscenities. He observed these police open
7 fire on the civilians with their automatic rifles. He watched as police
8 later killed an old man who they found hiding. After they had left, he
9 went to the stream and observed the bodies of the people who had been
11 Mr. Popaj then watched as the police searched and took
12 identification and valuables from 45 to 50 civilian men near the railway
13 bridge by the stream. His brother and his sons were among those men. He
14 watched as the police then opened fire on those men. Mr. Popaj later
15 returned with civilians from Xerxe and helped to bring several people who
16 had managed to survive the massacre into the town. He returned to the
17 stream again the next day and helped to bury the bodies and record the
18 names of those who had died.
19 In the days that followed, Mr. Popaj observed the aftermath of a
20 number of further massacres. He observed a number of scenes where
21 villagers had been shot and burned in the town of Celina and assisted in
22 burying a large number of bodies. He describes the work done by
23 Agim Jemini and others. Mr. Popaj also made observations of destruction
24 in Nagavc and subsequently described police involved in burying bodies
25 near Celina. He described the destruction of mosques. And he also
1 describes how he left Kosovo on the 13th of May, 1999, and how at the
2 border he observed police demand identification and then burn it.
3 That is the end of the summary.
4 Q. Sir, I do have some brief questions for you in the time that we
5 have remaining. First, I know that you've described in detail how you
6 observed these massacres that took place at the Belles stream. I'd like
7 to ask you some questions about the timing of what happened after that,
8 and if possible I'd like to be clear about the order that the things
9 happened in.
10 Now, first you described that after seeing the massacre you saw
11 your mother, father, and your wife on the railway tracks and that you
12 went and joined them. And you described that your wife went back to the
13 stream and told you that nine people had survived the shooting. Am I
14 correct so far?
15 A. Yes, you are.
16 Q. Okay. Now, you describe as well that you, your mother, your
17 father, and your wife walked to Zrze. My question for you, sir, is: Did
18 all of you go all the way to Zrze at that time?
19 A. No. After we took the wounded, I stayed at the railway track.
20 My wife and my father and mother went to take the tractor together with
21 Shemsedin Kelmendi. They came back. We took the survivors, put them on
22 the tractor, and then took them to Abaz Kryeziu's house.
23 Q. Okay. So let me make sure that I'm understanding that correct.
24 So you described, you stayed at the railway track; your wife, your
25 father, and your mother went to take a tractor with Shemsedin Kelmendi
1 and came back. Just so we're clear, sir, then, before you went -- well,
2 did you yourself go all the way to Zrze?
3 A. No, we didn't go together in -- to Xerxe. I stayed there.
4 Q. I see. And so then when you described these people returning, am
5 I understanding right then that those people -- so your mother, your
6 father, and your wife went to Zrze. Can you tell us then who came back
7 from Zrze and how?
8 A. Yes, my wife returned and my father, but not my mother. My aunt
9 did, the -- Abaz Kryeziu and the driver Shemsedin Kelmendi.
10 Q. And you mentioned a tractor as well. Did they come back with the
11 tractor at this point?
12 A. They returned to pick up the wounded with tractor. When we went
13 to Xerxe, we all walked. Only the driver was driving the tractor.
14 Q. Right. And again, just so we're clear, we just received
15 translation that said "when we went to Xerxe we all walked ..."
16 But you just described you yourself didn't go all the way to
17 Zrze; am I understanding that right?
18 A. I waited for my wife to return with my father and with the
19 tractor and with my aunt, to pick up the wounded at the site of the
20 event. Then we went to pick up the wounded and went to Xerxe to take
21 them to Xerxe.
22 Q. Thank you, sir. Thank you very much. I think that's quite clear
23 now. So when you met up then with the people that you just described and
24 with the tractor, and I know that in your statement you describe
25 returning to the scene and you describe them returning to the scene to
1 bring back the survivors. Just so we're clear, were you at the scene
2 with them and did you insist in bringing back the survivors at that time?
3 A. Yes, I returned with them along with a tractor. In Xerxe I
4 helped the wounded, but unfortunately one died and Alban, my nephew, died
5 later in the morning of the next day. And we buried them in the yard of
6 Abaz Kryeziu's house.
7 Q. Thank you, sir. Sir, you also mentioned the Zhuniqi family in
8 your statement and you referred to Isuf Zhuniqi in your prior testimony.
9 Can you tell us, did you know the Zhuniqi family and did you know
10 Isuf Zhuniqi in particular?
11 A. Yes, I knew Isuf Zhuniqi because we were classmates from the
12 first grade to the eighth grade.
13 Q. And did you also know the Zhuniqi family?
14 A. Yes, I have, because the Zhuniqi family -- my nephew was married
15 to a girl from that family. So I knew them from a long time ago.
16 Q. After the massacre, sir, when was it that you saw or that you
17 heard Isuf Zhuniqi? Can you explain that?
18 A. After the massacre, the day, I was talking with my wife, my
19 mother, and my father, and Isuf Zhuniqi was on the other side of the
20 railway and I heard him shouting. And I said, What happened? And he
21 simply moved his hands and didn't say anything and he left. He meant by
22 that that they have executed everyone.
23 Q. That's what you understood that gesture to mean?
24 A. Yes. He made with his hands like this.
25 Q. And you described --
1 JUDGE PARKER: For the record, I would intervene, Mr. Behar --
2 MR. BEHAR: Thank you.
3 JUDGE PARKER: -- the witness placed both hands in front of him
4 at the level of his chest with the palms down and moved them
5 horizontally, one across the other and back. Thank you.
6 MR. BEHAR: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Sir, you had referred in your prior answer to the fact that after
8 the massacre that day you were talking with your wife, your mother, and
9 your father. Am I correct then that you're referring to the time that --
10 in your statement where after seeing what you'd first seen, you then
11 joined your mother, your father, and your wife, as you described in your
13 A. Yes, that's correct. At that moment Isuf passed by on the other
14 side of the railway shouting.
15 Q. And can you explain to us where Isuf Zhuniqi had come from when
16 you saw him?
17 A. When you go to the place of the event, I was on the left-hand, he
18 was on the right-hand-side and he passed by the railway in the direction
19 of Xerxe.
20 Q. And just let me know what -- only referring to what you actually
21 saw, but was he coming from the place where you saw the massacre, was he
22 coming from nearby, or from somewhere else? Are you able to say where
23 you saw him coming from in that particular level of detail?
24 A. He was coming from the place where the massacre happened, from
25 where he had survived.
1 Q. Thank you, sir. I notice from your statement that there was a
2 list of survivors in your statement at page 5, and I notice that
3 Isuf Zhuniqi isn't listed with those other survivors on that page. Are
4 you able to explain to us why that is?
5 A. I don't know. Maybe he has given a statement himself. That's
6 why he wasn't included in the list. I think. I don't know. Isuf -- we
7 didn't pick up him with our tractor. I wrote down only the names of
8 those that we pick up that day.
9 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir. And I think that's helpful. Sir, you're
10 saying that those are the people that you picked up -- that's a list of
11 the people you picked up with the tractor or the survivors you picked up
12 with the tractor; am I understanding correctly?
13 A. Yes, that's correct.
14 Q. Thank you, sir.
15 A. Isuf wasn't one of them that we took with us.
16 Q. Right. And am I understanding correctly, sir, that you took the
17 people listed back on your tractor, but Isuf Zhuniqi you did not? You
18 described him passing away or running away. Am I understanding correctly
19 that he left at that point, he left the scene?
20 A. Yes, that's correct. He went in the direction of Xerxe. When we
21 went to Xerxe, I met him there but we didn't take him with us along with
22 the tractor.
23 Q. Thank you, sir. I have a couple final questions about the manner
24 in which you described crossing the border. When you left for Albania
25 you described in your statement the persons that you dealt with at the
1 border as Serb border guards. I'm wondering if you can explain to us
2 what type of forces those were that you dealt with at the border, if you
4 A. They were Serb police forces.
5 Q. And are you able to tell us how you know that, how you could tell
6 that they were police forces?
7 A. From their uniforms we could tell that they were police forces,
8 and it was written here "police."
9 Q. And finally --
10 A. There was a band written "police."
11 Q. Finally you describe your identification documents being thrown
12 into a fire in your statement.
13 MR. BEHAR: The reference for my friend is in the B/C/S statement
14 page 11, paragraph 9.
15 Q. Can I ask you, sir, when you describe the identification
16 documents being thrown into a fire, is that something you saw yourself?
17 A. Yes, yes. I saw it with my own eyes.
18 Q. And are you able to explain to us where the fire was or how it
19 was exactly that they did that so the Judges can understand?
20 A. When we arrived at the border, they stopped us. The police came
21 and asked us, Where are you from? And there were a lot of women from
22 Peje. I said, I don't have documents, and asked those who were on the
23 tractor if they had. And they showed me the documents and I gave them to
24 this officer. He went, walked about 2 metres, and threw them on the
25 fire. He said, We won't need these documents anymore from now on.
1 Q. And again, just so we understand, when you say "threw them on the
2 fire," was there a fire there that was already burning or can you
3 describe where the fire was?
4 A. There was a fire already when we arrived because there had been
5 other people passing the border before us. There was a man. There was a
6 glass jar there.
7 Q. And just so I understand, you made reference to a glass jar. Are
8 you able to explain to us what the significance of that was?
9 A. It was not a glass jar, it was a metal kind of jar. We use them
10 as a tanker in Kosova. It was used to light the fire.
11 Q. I see.
12 A. I apologise for saying glass.
13 Q. No, that's fine, sir, and we translate things into many languages
14 here so sometimes that happens. That's fine. Thank you very much, sir,
15 for your patience in answering my questions, and my learned friend from
16 the Defence will have some questions for you now.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Behar.
18 Mr. Popovic, do you cross-examine?
19 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Popovic:
21 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Popaj. My name is
22 Aleksandar Popovic, one of the Defence counsel for
23 Mr. Vlastimir Djordjevic. I'm going to ask you some questions.
24 Mr. Popaj, please, before we start, I will try to make my questions as
25 clear and as brief as possible, and if you have any suggestions
1 concerning my questions you are free to express them.
2 Mr. Popaj, if I'm not mistaken, you gave your statement on
3 12th, 13th, and 14th of June, 1999; am I right in saying so?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. This is a statement that you gave immediately after the event,
6 some months after the event. Am I right in saying that your memory was
7 the freshest then?
8 A. My memory will always remain indelible, the memory of what I went
9 through, until I die myself and join them.
10 Q. All right. So I will -- I will stick to that statement dated
11 June 1999 and this will provide the basis for my questions today. But
12 before I do so, please, could you confirm that you provided testimony in
13 the Milosevic trial in 2002; is that right?
14 A. Yes, that's right.
15 Q. When you provided that testimony, you had occasion to see once
16 again the 1999 statement and to correct or introduce corrections if
17 necessary; is that right?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. Am I right in saying that in November 2006 in the Milutinovic
20 trial you also testified, and to cut a long story short, on that occasion
21 you also had an opportunity to see the 1999 statement and introduce some
22 supplementary facts or corrections if there was a need to do so?
23 A. That's correct too.
24 Q. Please bear that in mind then and let us try to clarify some of
25 the unclear matters there. First of all, I'm going to ask you how many
1 inhabitants did your village -- was home to in 1999?
2 A. 2.800.
3 Q. Were there any members of Serb ethnicity in your village?
4 A. No, never.
5 Q. All right. In your June 1999 statement, paragraph 5, page 2, it
6 is stated that you understand that you are required to describe events
7 that you witnessed yourself and to emphasise those parts of your
8 statements that you heard from others. Did you bear that in mind when
9 you were giving this statement?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 A. I gave statement only about what I witnessed myself.
13 Q. Thank you. In your June 1999 statement, page 1, paragraph 4, you
14 discuss the KLA and your knowledge about them. I'm going to ask you some
15 questions concerning that. In paragraph 4 you say:
16 "There were three members of the KLA in our village whom everyone
17 knew ..."
18 Am I right that you stated so?
19 A. They were not in the village. They were far away from the
20 village. In 1998 from the 20th of May to the 20th of October I was
21 staying in the mountains, but I heard in the village people saying that
22 there were three KLA members.
23 Q. Mr. Popaj, I'm going to read again what is stated in your
24 statement, and I recently asked you whether you had opportunity on three
25 occasions to review your statement and rectify it. So it is stated in
1 your witness statement:
2 "There were three members of the KLA in our village whom everyone
3 knew ..."
4 In none of your statements or testimonies have you said that
5 somebody else told you about the presence of those three KLA members.
6 Can you explain the reasons why is this -- this is so?
7 A. I already stated that I personally didn't see these three people,
8 but I heard that there were three members of the KLA but they were never
9 actually in the village for me to see them. Even in the Milutinovic case
10 when I testified, I already said that I didn't see these people myself.
11 Q. So this sentence "there were three members of the KLA in our
12 village whom everyone knew ..." is not a true statement?
13 A. It is not true that they were in the village. If they were in
14 Drenica or somewhere else, this I don't know. I'm just saying that they
15 were not present in the village.
16 Q. Mr. Popaj, this was not my question. My question was: Did you
17 give this statement and did you have occasion to rectify it on several
18 occasions? I'm repeating my question. Am I right in saying that the
19 sentence "there were three KLA members in our village whom everyone
20 knew ..." is not true? Please answer my question.
21 A. It is not correct what you are putting to me. They were not in
22 the village, but we knew that they were from our village. There were
23 three members of the KLA. This is correct, but they were not in the
24 village. And I said so even when I was here before. There were no KLA
25 units in our village.
1 Q. I'm just confronting you with what is written in your statement,
2 but let's not waste any more time on that. My next question is going to
3 be the following: Did you know those three KLA members that you are
5 A. I knew them but I didn't see them.
6 Q. Can you please tell us their names?
7 A. At the time I didn't know the names. It was later on that I
8 learned who they were.
9 Q. But in responding to the previous question you said: "I knew
10 them but I did not see them."
11 Now you say that at the time you did not know them. Which is the
12 truth? Did you know them or did you not know them; and if you knew them,
13 what were their names?
14 A. I didn't know them personally. I learned their names after the
15 war. At that time I didn't know that they were those -- the ones that
16 were in the KLA. I know all the village inhabitants, but at that moment
17 I didn't know that they were the three particular ones.
18 Q. Yes, but a minute ago you said: "I knew them but I didn't see
20 When did you speak the truth, a minute ago or now? Now you're
21 saying that you didn't know them.
22 A. I said it clearly, sir. I heard people say, and there is no one
23 in the village that I don't know. But I didn't know who these three
24 persons were. I learned that after the war, I learned their names. I
25 simply knew that there were three members.
1 Q. Did you ever see those three KLA members wearing uniforms?
2 A. This is the right question you should have asked me. I never saw
3 these three people in uniforms.
4 Q. Then I would like us to take a look at the transcript in the
5 Milutinovic case.
6 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, we just received the
7 number. P01082, if I'm not very much mistaken -- no, it's 083 the last
8 three digits. Let's take a look at page 5697, line 23.
9 Q. Mr. Popaj, in responding to questions put to you by Judge Bonomy
10 in the Milutinovic case, trying to clarify the same matter that I'm
11 trying to clarify now on whether there were three KLA members in your
12 village whom everyone knew, you replied as follows:
13 "Well, what I said is that three people from my village were in
14 the KLA. They had uniforms ..."
15 How did you learn that they had uniforms?
16 A. After I returned from Albania
17 I didn't know who they were. I never said that I knew them at that time.
18 Q. Mr. Popaj, you'll have to --
19 A. I can tell you the names because I learned that in 1999.
20 Q. You will have to tell us not only the names but much more beyond
21 that because what you are saying right now cannot be in any way compared
22 to what you said before. Let's cut to the chase. What is true? What
23 you've testified in the Milutinovic case where you said that there were
24 three people from your village who were in the KLA and had uniforms, or
25 what you're saying today when you said that you saw them only after
1 returning from Albania
2 were? Although you just a couple of minutes ago said that you knew them.
3 This is complete confusion. Could you tell us, please, now, which of
4 those statements are true?
5 A. Sir, I am telling you that I knew every one of the inhabitants of
6 the village, even today I do. And I told you that I didn't know who
7 these three KLA members were in 1989 -- until 1989 I didn't know who they
8 were when I returned home.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Correction 1998, 1999.
10 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. For the transcript do you mean 1998?
12 Mr. Popaj, you said that they wore uniforms, and then in your
13 response today you said you knew them. How do you have that knowledge?
14 How come you said in the Milutinovic case three years ago that they had
15 uniforms, and today in answering the questions you say that they -- that
16 you don't know whether they had any uniforms? I didn't ask you about the
17 period after 1998. You were quite precise when answering Judge Bonomy's
19 A. That I knew them from the day they were born, of course, and I
20 can give you their birth date as well of all the Popaj family, over 20
21 households. But I'm telling you this also, that I didn't know who
22 exactly they were, that they were members of the KLA. But after I
23 returned, in June 1999, when we did the -- when we had the funerals, I
24 saw them in KLA uniform.
25 Q. Mr. Popaj, I think you will have to make up your mind as to the
1 truth of it. Is what you are telling us today the truth and that what
2 you said before was not, given that it is in complete contradiction to
3 what you are saying today?
4 A. I said the same thing earlier. Maybe I did not say when exactly
5 I learned that they were members. I know everybody from the village, the
6 Zhuniqis, the Gashis, and everybody else. But I saw them in uniform when
7 we had the funerals. And I repeat, I know everybody in my village. I
8 knew them then and I know them now.
9 Q. Can you tell us the name of these three KLA members that you were
10 talking about?
11 A. Ilir Popaj, Bajram Popaj, and Halim Kelmendi. These were the
12 ones that I saw after the war in uniform.
13 Q. Can you tell us what your relationship is with Ilir Popaj and
14 Bajram Popaj? Are you related in any way?
15 A. Yes, they're my relatives. All the Popajs are related.
16 Q. You're quite correct about that. Can you explain their kinship
17 to us. Are they close or distant relatives?
18 A. No, they're not close relatives, but we are relatives. We don't
19 live close to each other, but as I said, all the Popajs are related.
20 Q. Thank you. Since you explained to us now that you did not see
21 the uniforms before June 1999, can you tell us what the uniforms you did
22 see looked like, the ones you saw at the funeral worn by those KLA
24 A. When the funeral was conducted, there were 22 members of the KLA.
25 And to tell you the truth, I was not paying attention to what they were
1 wearing. I had --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction:
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were 22 members of my family
4 being buried that day, and I did not look at them closely, the ones who
5 were attending.
6 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. How do you know then that they were in uniform?
8 A. Well, I had a look at them and they were in uniform, but after
9 that day I can tell you I never saw them in uniform. I think Bajram
10 still works in defence somewhere. I don't know whether he is wearing a
11 uniform today or not.
12 Q. My question was simply this: Do you remember what the colour of
13 the uniforms was?
14 A. I can't remember the colour, but the investigators from the
15 Tribunal saw them in uniform. And, you know, there are things being said
16 such as Besim Popaj was killed by the KLA and Besim Popaj is still alive.
17 He is a cousin of mine.
18 Q. Mr. Popaj, we only want to learn about what you saw, since this
19 is the matter that we want to get through your testimony. That is why
20 I'm asking you these questions. Let us try to arrive at a conclusion
21 concerning the members of the KLA known by everyone in your village. Did
22 you as a matter of fact ever see them in your village?
23 A. What time are you referring to? I just said that from 1998 to
24 June 1999 I never saw them in the village, because in May 1998 to
25 October 1998 I was in the mountains with the herds. And I went back to
1 the village on the 20th of October. I have 30 cows and I also have a lot
2 of sheep, and I was in the mountains, in the pastures.
3 Q. Mr. Popaj, were there other persons, save for the three whom you
4 mentioned, from your village who were members of the KLA?
5 A. I am not aware of any. If you know of any such members you can
6 ask me, but I don't know.
7 Q. I would definitely ask you about that. I just wanted to hear
8 from you whether you wanted to share that information with us, perhaps in
9 mentioning everyone I know about I wanted to ask you whether you wanted
10 to tell us something about that first so that I don't omit anyone.
11 A. [Previous translation continues]... I would have for sure.
12 Q. On the 25th of March, 1999, when the police and army entered your
13 village, were there any armed KLA in it?
14 A. No, there weren't.
15 Q. Mr. Popaj, did you know that in the course of 1998 in your
16 village, Bela Crkva, there were KLA members from your village and they
17 were called the civilian protection?
18 A. No, I don't know. I was asked about this other times as well,
19 but I don't know.
20 Q. Did you know that in 1998 the KLA distributed weapons in your
21 village so that the village could defend itself?
22 A. No, I did not know that and that's not true. They did not
23 distribute weapons.
24 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have D004-2607 --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 2670.
1 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Mr. Popaj, this document is a statement by Nesret Popaj given to
3 the OTP to Mr. Gerard Sexton on the 14th of April, 1999. First of all,
4 do you know a person from your village by the name of Nesret Popaj?
5 A. Could you repeat the first name, please, is it Nesret Popaj?
6 Q. Exactly, born on the 14th of June, 1963.
7 A. I know him very well.
8 Q. Am I right in saying that Mr. Nesret Popaj was born and lived in
9 Bela Crkva until 1999?
10 A. No, that's not correct. Nesret Popaj in 1994 left Bellacerka and
11 went to Germany
12 5th of July, 1999. During that time, I did not see him in Bellacerka.
13 Q. But in 1998, as you told us, you spent most of your time in the
14 mountains with your livestock?
15 A. Well, I'm telling you that he left in 1994. This is not in my
16 statement, but when he left he borrowed some money from me to go to
18 This is what I know and this is what I'm telling you.
19 Q. Are you actually explaining to us the reason why he may have
20 chosen not to get in touch with you, given that he had borrowed money
21 from you?
22 A. He borrowed the money in 1994 because he did not have enough
23 money to go to Germany
24 money to me. That was just for the trip, for him to go there.
25 Q. Mr. Popaj, if I told you that Nesret Popaj stated that he was a
1 KLA member, would that change anything in your present testimony?
2 A. I don't know whether he was or was not a member of the KLA. If
3 you want information about that, then you ask Nesret Popaj to come here.
4 He still is living in Germany
5 Q. Are you going to change your testimony if I told you that
6 Nesret Popaj stated that the KLA armed your village in 1998 for defence
7 and that he personally was issued with an automatic weapon?
8 A. I don't know about it. My father and Nesret's father are
9 cousins, first cousins, and we would have known. I know that he stayed
10 in Germany
11 2000. How could he have been in Kosova? Ahmet, his father, would have
12 told me about him returning. When I came back from the mountains I would
13 have heard about it -- see him.
14 Q. Mr. Popaj, are you going to change your testimony if I tell you
15 that Nesret Popaj stated that he was a member of the civilian protection
16 and armed by the KLA in your village?
17 A. I'm telling you that he wasn't. He couldn't have been. He was
18 not in Kosova in 1998. It's not possible for him to have been there in
20 Q. Are you going to change your mind if I tell you that
21 Mr. Nesret Popaj in his statement said that on the 25th of March, 1999
22 he was in your village and that under his jacket he had a concealed
24 A. Well, if he said that himself then you invite him to the hearing
25 and he can testify, but I am convinced that he was not in Kosova in
1 1998/1999. He was there when we started exhuming the bodies and had the
2 funerals. His cousin Xhevdet came to Kosova. I think he went to Germany
3 to pick I am up, and they came to Kosova together for the funeral.
4 Q. Do you know Avni Popaj from your village? He was Nesret Popaj's
5 cousin, therefore I presume yours as well?
6 A. Yes, they are first cousins, the two of them. I knew them then
7 and I know them now.
8 Q. Did you know that Avni Popaj -- on the 25th of March, 1999
9 Nesret Popaj stated, was in the company of Avni Popaj, his first cousin,
10 as you told us?
11 A. Where were they? Maybe they were, but where were they?
12 Q. So it seems that now they may have been there. Mr. Popaj, up to
13 this point in time you were stating that it was impossible, now you are
14 telling us that there may have been. Am I right in saying that you as a
15 matter of fact do not know whether Nesret Popaj was there or not. At the
16 beginning of your testimony --
17 A. I'm asking you where were they together? Were they in Albania
18 Were they in Germany
19 might have been together, but where I'm asking you?
20 Q. You can read my question. Avni Popaj, the 25th of March, 1999
21 in your village. When Nesret Popaj had that concealed automatic weapon
22 under his jacket, as he himself said, he also shared the information that
23 he was in the company of Avni Popaj. That was my question.
24 A. None of them were in the village. I think they lied to you or
25 this is your lie.
1 Q. Do you know Bajram Popaj from your village?
2 A. I knew him then. I know him now, yes.
3 Q. Is he your cousin?
4 A. All the Popajs are my relatives.
5 Q. Then I will no longer ask you about the last names, I will go by
6 the first names, although I will point out that these are your relatives.
7 Did you know that Bajram was a KLA member?
8 A. I already told you that I saw him later, but in the Popaj family
9 there are not -- no two names that are the same, and this is the same
10 Bajram Popaj who I saw in June when the bodies were being exhumed,
11 because in the Popaj family there are no two members with the same first
13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Popaj. For clarification, Bajram Popaj was one of
14 the three KLA members from your village that we mentioned at the
15 beginning of this examination; am I correct?
16 A. Yes, I did mention his name, that's correct, but they were not
17 there on the day that you're asking me about.
18 Q. Now, I didn't put any dates concerning this, Witness. It was
19 about Bajram and Avni --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Nesret and Avni.
21 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. What about Ilir Popaj, I won't ask you if he's a cousin of yours.
23 He must be since he's from your village. The question is: Is Ilir Popaj
24 from your village and did you know that he was also a KLA member?
25 A. Yes. I already told you that I saw him after the war.
1 Q. So again to clarify, Ilir Popaj that we are discussing now is the
2 second of the three KLA members whom you mentioned when we were
3 discussing, or rather, at the beginning of today's cross-examination?
4 A. Yes, I did tell you that. Bajram Popaj, Ilir Popaj, and
5 Halim Kelmendi, these are the names that I mentioned earlier and these
6 are the three persons I saw later in 1999 when the bodies were being
8 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we next please see D004-2448.
9 Q. Mr. Popaj, this is a diary of Krasniqi Lulezim, commander of the
10 184th KLA Brigade. I will read out, since it's a voluminous document, I
11 will read out the excerpt from page 8 -- sorry, page 9, paragraph 1:
12 "The plan for the communication maintenance (couriers and radio
13 link) Iljir Popaj and Bajram Popaj and ten more soldiers from Bela Crkva,
14 during the transit towards Jablanica they need to secure the hill ..."
15 This is an order issued by commander of the 184th KLA Brigade.
16 Mr. Popaj, my question for you is this: It is stated here that in
17 addition to Ilir Popaj and Bajram Popaj, for whom you just confirmed to
18 us were KLA members and whom we already discussed, there were another ten
19 KLA members from Bela Crkva. Can you tell us anything about that? Are
20 you familiar with that? Who were those members?
21 JUDGE PARKER: The first question has to be: Do you accept that
22 there were --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know --
24 JUDGE PARKER: -- ten more members? And you need to indicate to
25 the witness the date, if you have it, of this document.
1 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The date
2 of the document -- all we have is what is translated and is in e-court.
3 We see at the bottom, page 9, last paragraph, February 1999. I suppose
4 it is between the 30th of January and the 1st of February, 1999, given
5 that this is a diary of the 184th KLA Brigade commander. It was kept
6 daily, hence my conclusion. I don't have a precise date.
7 JUDGE PARKER: You realise you are there giving a great burst of
8 evidence about the document. You may use a document like this to put to
9 the witness, Here is an entry in what appears or purports to be a diary
10 of this KLA unit. If you have it, an approximate date.
11 The passage I have quoted to you suggests that there were, in
12 addition to the two named men, ten other KLA members from the village.
13 Do you accept that? If he doesn't, that's the end of the use you can
14 make of the document until you call evidence to prove there were ten
15 other men. If he accepts there may have been ten other men, you may go
16 on with other questions. It may be that you might like to have a break
17 now to think about how you will use it.
18 MR. POPOVIC: [No interpretation]
19 JUDGE PARKER: We will, Mr. Popaj, have the first break now.
20 That will give you a chance to have a rest. We will continue at 11.00,
21 in half an hour, and the Court Officer will assist you during the break.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
24 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Are you all comfortable again there, Mr. Popaj?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Yes, thank you.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Popovic, would you continue.
3 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will continue
4 taking on board all of the instructions that I received at the end of the
5 last session.
6 Q. Mr. Popaj, first I'm going to ask you whether you know
7 Lulezim Krasniqi?
8 A. I do not know of him and I have never heard of him.
9 Q. All right. Thank you. Do you know anything that Bajram and
10 Ilir Popaj that we mentioned had, or were in the company, or were they in
11 the KLA together with the ten more people from your village, Bela Crkva?
12 A. I am not an investigator. I don't know who these people were.
13 You may ask someone else.
14 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Popaj. I'm going to broach another
15 subject. I'm not going to dwell on this any longer.
16 Mr. Popaj, do you know on the 25th of March, 1999, were they
17 as -- were there any KLA members in Celina or whether it was a stronghold
18 of the KLA at the time?
19 A. On the 25th of May [as interpreted] or after that date, there
20 wasn't any KLA presence or stronghold in the village.
21 Q. I apologise, I'm -- may I repeat that the question concerned the
22 25th of March and the answer refers to 25th of May.
23 A. I meant the 25th of March. I said neither on the 25th nor before
24 that date there were any presence.
25 Q. Please tell us, what is the distance between Celina and your
2 A. From my house it is about 1 kilometre and maybe a little bit
3 more. I never measured it actually.
4 Q. Could you in your village or in your house hear any fighting if
5 there was any going on in Celina?
6 A. On the 25th of March you couldn't hear anything because of the
7 Serb shelling by the police and the army.
8 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us what is the distance between
9 Bela Crkva and Nagavci and Rogovo? Let us get some pictures about the
11 A. Rogove is very close, it is very close from where we are. We are
12 separated only by the stream.
13 I'm talking about Nagavc and Celine. Rogove is not even more
14 than 500 metres away from the place of the massacre.
15 Q. Could you please tell us whether Labucevo [Realtime transcript
16 read in error "Lapusnik"] is close to your village?
17 A. I don't know, what do you mean by that? What village do you
18 mean? Are you asking me about Malisheve?
19 Q. Not Lapusnik but Labucevo?
20 A. I don't think there is a village by that name. Malisheve, yes,
21 there is a village by this name, and this village is 23 kilometres away
22 from my village.
23 Q. It's not necessary to continue. My question referred to the
24 village of Labucevo. If you think such a village does not exist, that is
25 acceptable. My next question is --
1 A. [Previous translation continues]... village by the name of
2 Llapceve. There is no village by this name.
3 Q. Do you know that on the 25th of January, 1999, a KLA member was
4 killed in ambush close to your village, Bela Crkva?
5 A. I don't know. It was in the place between Rahovec, Drenovc, and
6 Potoqan. I have seen that there is a monument erected to that incident.
7 Q. Did you have any knowledge that in 1998 while you were in the
8 village and at the beginning of 1999, that there were any armed incidents
9 or skirmishes between the KLA and Serb police in, or around, or in the
10 vicinity of your village; and if so, could you tell us what you knew
11 about that?
12 A. It was not in my village. I showed you the road
13 Rahovec-Drenovc-Potoqan, that is where. It is some 16 kilometres from
14 where I am.
15 Q. Mr. Popaj, most probably you misunderstood me. My question did
16 not refer to that incident. You already covered that in your question --
17 in your answer. I'm asking you about other events at the end of 1998 and
18 the beginning of 1999. Let me not list them individually. Do you know
19 whether any skirmishes between Serb security forces and the KLA in your
20 village or around your village, so I'm asking you about events which does
21 not -- do not concern that particular incident but some others that you
22 may know of.
23 A. There were no such skirmishes or fighting in my village.
24 Q. And in the immediate vicinity of your village?
25 A. I showed you about that ambush that you mentioned. That was the
1 only one that I know of, where in that place I have seen a monument
2 erected. I don't know of any other incident.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we see, please, D004-2681.
5 Q. Mr. Popaj, could you please take a look at this -- and before
6 that let me ask you: Are you familiar with the book entitled "The
8 in Pristina in 2002?
9 A. I have heard about it. It was the Tribunal investigator, whose
10 name I don't remember now, who showed that to me for the first time. He
11 showed that book to me, but I can write a book about you. So I don't
12 think that it's relevant. I told him that what is written in the book is
13 not done with my permission. Probably the author has done it for his own
14 personal profit. I don't know who the author is.
15 Q. Very well.
16 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] May I ask the usher to turn to
17 page 141 of that book. That would be 6D01841. I believe that this is
18 146. What we need is 141. That is the page. Thank you.
19 Q. Mr. Popaj, could you please read out the introductory part and
20 then read out the first five names here on the list.
21 A. I don't need to read it. If I wanted to read it, I would have
22 taken the book that was given to me by this investigator. But I didn't
23 want to have the book. The investigator knows that I didn't take the
24 book because that was done without my permission. I lost a child. I
25 don't need to read anything there. I never spoke with these persons.
1 Q. Mr. Popaj, Mr. Popaj, what I'm asking you is to reply to the
2 questions put to you. I do express my commiseration about you losing a
3 child, but this is not what we're dealing with. Could you read out the
4 introductory part and the first five names you see on the list?
5 A. I don't need to read them because they're not part of my
6 statement, and I've never spoken with such persons. What relevance is
7 that to me?
8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Popovic, at the moment I would ask the same
9 question as the witness does. I'm sure you must have a reason. I cannot
10 read the language in which the introductory lines are written, so I can't
11 think ahead as to what you may be getting at. I can read the first five
12 names. None of them are names of this witness or of people of his
13 village. They are names that are quite well-known in the organisation of
14 the UCK or the KLA. Now, is there some particular purpose?
15 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, concerning the
16 witness -- the statement of this witness, the witness has referred to
17 this book earlier. This is not the first time that he's facing this
18 book. This book has been shown to this witness and he answered certain
19 questions asked by the ICTY's investigators. His recent answer was to
20 the effect that he didn't know who wrote the book. This is in Albanian,
21 but I wanted him to read it out so that we can get a translation.
22 This is the editorial board of people who took part in writing
23 this book. He said that he didn't know who the authors were. This is
24 the opportunity to read who the authors were, and then I would be
25 referring to each person mentioned in the book and this will be seen from
1 my further questions, which are connected with the people from his
2 village. He's testified about those things already and everything
3 concerning to that is contained in the Prosecution's evidence disclosed
4 to us.
5 He is quite well aware what people are going to be mentioned
6 hailing from the same villages. He -- as he states, he did not want to
7 take the book from the investigators to see who authored it, but let us
8 see who authored them -- this book. My intention is for him to read out
9 the first five names of the editorial board, and this would be a good
10 introduction to my further questions concerning people from his village
11 who were stated in the book with all their particulars concerning date
12 and place of birth, et cetera.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Popovic, you can take it that the Chamber is
14 aware that there is a book written by persons not known, but in respect
15 of which book there was an editorial committee of at least 17 leading
16 members of the KLA. They are not authors. They were an editorial
17 committee. Now, I think you can move from there and go straight to any
18 passage that you think ought to be put to the witness, to see whether he
19 accepts the truth of it or has any comment about it.
20 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Absolutely. I will comply with
21 your suggestions. What I meant to do is to explain to the Court and the
22 witness who the members of the editorial board were.
23 Let's move on. Let's go to page 14. I believe that it's 6D0359.
24 Q. Mr. Popaj, could you please read out what is written here on this
25 page so that we get the translation. This is the chapter that we are
1 going to discuss in my further questioning.
2 A. I don't see why I should read the title because this was not done
3 with my permission. I don't want to have anything to do with it. That
4 book was brought to me in my own house. I think you've asked me about
5 this topic also the other time I was here. I am now a witness who buried
6 168 victims with my own hands, men, women, children. You're asking me
7 about the book. Ask those persons who have written the book and not me.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Popovic, can I suggest that it might enable
9 you to reach your objective if without asking the witness to read
10 passages you put to him the subject that you want put from the book and
11 see whether he agrees with that or is able to comment on that. From what
12 you have indicated, for example, it may be that you want to say to him:
13 Do you agree that so and so was a member of the KLA? Or: Do you agree
14 that on such and such date there was a KLA action in the village or in
15 the next village or something. I don't know what it is you want to refer
16 to, but you have an emotional problem that is getting in the way of your
17 questioning being effective. And I'm trying to suggest to you ways that
18 you can get past that and get on with the task.
19 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, respecting all what
20 you've said, we have only the Albanian text. We do not have a
21 translation into Serbian. The witness is asked to read it out loud.
22 This is not an emotional problem. It's of a different nature. There's
23 no reason for this witness being granted special status. This is just a
24 title of a chapter, and by reading it out loud he would be explaining or
25 giving us an opportunity for that title to be translated, and then after
1 that we are going to ask some very precise questions without him reading
2 out anything. I wanted to get him to read out in his language so we
3 would get a translation into Serbian and English. And he's already
4 referred to that in the book, in his statement, and in the Milutinovic
6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Popovic, the Chamber is not minded to oblige
7 the witness to read from this book. Now, either you will find an
8 alternative way of dealing with the problem or move on from there.
9 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
10 Could we please go to page 23 -- or I'm going to ask you.
11 Q. What I just showed you was page 11. Does this refer to heros of
12 the KLA being discussed in that title?
13 A. I am not here to tell you who the martyrs of the KLA were. I'm
14 here to testify to what I saw and experienced myself.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Popaj, it would assist this Chamber a great
16 deal if you were able to cooperate with the questions that are being put
17 to you. We respect your concerns, but we must learn some things from you
18 about this book. Now, it's being put to you that there are listed at
19 page 23 a number of people who are said to be heros of the KLA. Perhaps
20 if you could put your glasses on and just have a look to see whether that
21 is what you find on page 23.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They have written these names
23 according to the wish of the author. These are not accurate. If the
24 book was accurate, I would have accepted the book when it was given to
25 me. But there are lies in it. There are untruths in it. When I was
1 asked about Jusuf Popaj during the Milosevic trial whether he was killed
2 by the KLA or not, he was 77 years old, he was a Muslim priest, and he
3 was killed by the Serbs. So this book is the same, is full of untruths.
4 I said, If you leave this book to me - to this investigator - I will burn
6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much for that. That has helped us
7 to understand your position quite a bit, Mr. Popaj. There are some other
8 names there which we need to have your comment on. We understand what
9 you have said about Jusuf, and there are probably other explanations you
10 can give about some other names. And then, of course, we will have to
11 assess that in due course. But for the moment could you give any comment
12 you would like to make about other names that are put to you now by
13 Mr. Popovic?
14 Yes, Mr. Popovic, the next name.
15 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 Q. That would be Alban Popaj, born in 1975, do you know him? You
17 can find his name on page 23.
18 A. [Previous translation continues]... 1975. In 1978 he was born
19 on the 16th of April. He is my nephew, the son of my brother. I grew
20 him up -- I raised him because his father died in 1981.
21 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we next see page 67, please.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Popovic kindly repeat the ERN
24 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] There is a name of a person called
25 Mehmet Popaj born 1954.
1 Q. Is he from Bela Crkva?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Next, page 86, please.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Popovic kindly slowly read the ERN
5 reference number.
6 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. We see the name of Sahit Popaj. Is he from Bela Crkva?
8 A. Yes. Yes, he was born in 1958.
9 Q. This is page --
10 A. He is my first cousin, my uncle's son.
11 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we see page 94,
12 Shendet Popaj.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shendet Popaj was my son. He was
14 born on the 8th of November, 1981.
15 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Thank you. We have only a few pages left. Page 98,
17 Xhavit Popaj.
18 A. Yes, I know him. I know the people I buried. You don't need to
19 show me the book.
20 Q. Very well, Mr. Popaj. Concerning the book, I have one last
21 question. Page 111, Kreshnik Popaj?
22 A. Yes, Kreshnik Popaj, he was born in 1985 in August.
23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Popaj. I have no further questions about this
25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that assistance, Mr. Popaj. There
1 are things that we need to have your comment on when we come in due
2 course to consider the whole questions that are raised in this trial. So
3 we're grateful for that. Now Mr. Popovic has some other questions.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a question, please. There
5 is a Qerim Zhuniqi and Fatos Zhuniqi there, my aunt's children, and there
6 were born in -- after 1981, and they have put there their names as KLA
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction:
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Xhavit and Eqerem [as interpreted]
10 were invalids, they were disabled, how could they have been with the KLA?
11 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Popaj.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that.
14 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. My next question: Mr. Popaj, did you know that lists were
16 distributed and all those who wanted to be reserve soldiers of the KLA
17 could enter their names on their lists in the course of 1998 and 1999?
18 A. I was not there at that time. Maybe there were lists, but I
19 don't know. Nobody went, though.
20 Q. Thank you. Am I right in saying that you spoke to the Tribunal
21 investigators and that it was suggested to you in the course of that
22 interview that on the graves of certain people there were certain
23 inscriptions which were not true? I don't want to prompt you any
24 further, but does this suffice to jog your memory as to that topic
25 discussed with the Tribunal investigators? You spoke about that in the
1 Milutinovic case.
2 A. Yes, those names were there, but I changed them. I erased them
3 from the list because they don't exist.
4 Q. Can you clarify, please. Which names did you change and what was
5 taken off the list since those people did not exist?
6 A. The ones you asked me about. I erased them that year,
7 immediately, because I go every morning to the cemetery. 4.00 in the
8 morning I am there and the Tribunal investigators can keep watch and see
9 me every day when I go there if they want. I was at the cemetery today
10 in the morning at 4.00 before coming here.
11 Q. Mr. Popaj, a clarification, please. Something is unclear to me.
12 Please explain to me what did you erase, what were the names concerned,
13 what were the inscriptions you erased?
14 A. The ones that you mentioned that you said were martyrs and
15 allegedly members of the KLA, they were not. Jusuf Popaj was mentioned
16 there as a martyr. He couldn't have been a member of the KLA. His
17 father was carrying him on his shoulders.
18 Q. Yes, but can you tell us whether on their gravestones it said
19 "martyrs"? Was that the reason -- or is that what you erased from their
21 A. Yes. They were martyrs in a sense because they were civilians
22 who died, but they were not fighters.
23 Q. So am I right in saying that on their graves it said "martyr,"
24 and that after you were suggested that by the Tribunal investigators you
25 erased the word "martyr"?
1 A. They were erased before the book was given to me. These were
2 martyrs, they are all martyrs, but civilians because -- in fact, if you
3 say "hero" or a fighter, a fallen hero, then those are members -- those
4 could be members of the KLA. How could my son who was 14 years old be a
5 member of the KLA or Kreshnik? He was not even 14 years old at the time.
6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Popaj. That was my question I was trying to
7 clarify, that is to say that on the gravestones it said "fallen fighters"
8 or "fallen heros," and that it was suggested that such inscriptions
9 should be taken off. Am I correct in saying that? This is a specific
10 question that I have.
11 A. It says there "martyrs." All of them have that inscription.
12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Popaj. Now to go back to the 1999 statement. In
13 the continuation of paragraph 4 you say in the last sentence that:
14 "Previously, like most inhabitants of the village, I provided
15 food and money for the KLA ..."
16 When did you give money or food for the KLA for the first time?
17 A. In 1998 the whole village gave money and whatever they had.
18 Somebody gave more, some people gave less. It was the old man of the
19 village that came from house to house and asked for those assistance --
20 for those aids.
21 Q. Thank you. On how many occasions did you provide food or money
22 for the KLA?
23 A. I never gave them money. I only gave meat. Even if they come
24 today that's what I would give them because I have a cow-shed full of
25 cows. People gave money according to their -- to their ability, how rich
1 they were. Mustafe Gashi was the representative of the village and he
2 collected the money. I don't know how much money he collected. He
4 Q. Given that the village elder collected the money and food, am I
5 right in saying that this was done in an organised fashion to collect
6 money and food for the KLA at the level of the village?
7 A. I don't know whether it was organised or not. They came to my
8 house and asked for contributions. I asked them, What do you need? And
9 I -- and they said, Whatever you have. And I had 600 kilogrammes of meat
10 and I gave it to them.
11 Q. When you say "they came to my house," can we clarify who it was.
12 Who was it that came to your house and asked for you to contribute, as
13 you put it?
14 A. I said Mustafe Gashi, the representative of the village, he was
15 the one who came.
16 Q. Did Mustafe Gashi as the village representative go to the other
17 inhabitants of the village with the same request or did he only come to
19 A. I don't know. I didn't ask him. It was none of my business
20 whether he went elsewhere or not.
21 Q. Do you recall that in the Milutinovic case you said that other
22 inhabitants of the village also contributed in accordance with their
24 A. Yes. All the inhabitants of the village contributed. It was not
25 only me that contributed. They all gave whatever they had. It was not
1 an obligation to give this amount of money or that amount of money.
2 Whatever they had they could give if they had it.
3 Q. Based on this answer, Mr. Popaj, am I right in saying - and this
4 will round off the topic of the KLA - that you were a KLA sympathiser and
5 that you supported them in 1998 and 1999?
6 A. Who would not love their own army? Not only our own army, but
7 even when the KFOR came after the war they entered Kosova, we helped
8 them, I helped them.
9 Q. Mr. Popaj, am I right in saying that you assisted them in both
10 1998 and 1999 and that as a matter of fact you were given certain tasks?
11 There was also a fact from your statement whereby you say that you had a
12 pair of binoculars in your bag. Was that one of your tasks concerning
13 your collaboration with the KLA?
14 A. I had those particulars from 1973 when I started going to Sharri
15 pastures. I have three shepherds there who stay with the sheep in the
16 mountains now and they all have binoculars themselves.
17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Popaj. My next question before we go back to your
18 1999 statement is this: Do you recall being heard by an investigative
19 judge of the Prizren court in the proceedings against the accused
20 Andjelko Kolasinac from Orahovac?
21 A. Yes, I went there together with my wife, to Prizren. My wife was
22 pregnant at the time, and I went with her.
23 Q. Do you recall whether you provided a statement to the court or
24 your wife?
25 A. My wife was supposed to give testimony, but she left the room
1 because she couldn't. She was heavily pregnant at the time. And then I
2 testified in her place. But my testimony was not accepted.
3 Q. Thank you. In that testimony or statement, did you enumerate
4 certain people whom you personally see open fire at Nasije [phoen] when
5 discussing the event in your village of the 25th of March, 1999, which
6 took place under the bridge? You also described that in your statement?
7 A. I saw them opening fire on the Zhuniqi family, the 14 members of
8 that family. Then they opened fire on Halim Fetoshi. He was born in
9 1932. And then the big group at the Belles bridge were executed. We
10 went to the place of the execution, and we took pictures. Where are
11 those pictures? And we also hung up their boots and their shoes on a
12 tree there. They took pictures. Where are those pictures? They brought
13 Andjelkovic by helicopter there to see where they committed the crime.
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Popaj; however, that was not my question. My
15 question was this: Did you enumerate certain people by their first and
16 last names as the people you saw carry out the massacre at the Belles
18 A. I mentioned the names according to what Feim Popaj told me. In
19 the beginning, they killed two people. Feim Popaj is alive but he's not
20 well in his head now. He survived the massacre but he's not well.
21 Q. Thank you. Am I right in saying that in the Milutinovic case you
22 stated that you did not see or recognise any of the persons who committed
23 the massacre?
24 A. I did not recognise any of them because I was not close to
25 them -- I was not close enough. I was about 120 metres away on the other
1 side of the stream. When they executed the 14 people, one of them
2 survived, 13 died.
3 Q. Thank you. Am I right in saying that in your testimony you
4 mentioned Cedomir Jovanovic, stating that you saw him open fire at Nasije
5 when you were discussing that event? Cedomir Jovanovic.
6 A. As a dead person? I told you that Feim told me everything
7 because I couldn't myself see. There are still traces there where the
8 execution happened. Even if you go there today you will see traces of
9 the execution. You can go and see for yourself where the people were
10 executed and where I was and where the people who executed them were. It
11 was not possible for me to see. The traces are still there, though. You
12 can go for yourself.
13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Popaj. Am I right in saying that in that
14 statement you say that you personally saw Cedomir Jovanovic open fire at
15 Nasije when you discussed the crime of the 25th of March, 1999. That is
16 my question. Am I right in saying that?
17 A. Those were the ones who opened fire, the ones who were on my side
18 of the stream. They opened fire against the group of 14 people, and then
19 the group of 46 men few metres further, they were all executed there.
20 They executed children and women. They executed 2-year-olds.
21 Q. Please focus on my question. You said a minute ago that you
22 couldn't recognise anyone, given that you were not close enough. You
23 were 120 metres away, lines 9 and 10 of the previous page of the
24 transcript. Now I'm asking you this: In your testimony before the
25 investigative judge in Prizren, did you say that you saw
1 Cedomir Jovanovic --
2 A. I told you I was 120 metres away. The distance was measured.
3 You can go there yourself and measure it. And the stream was in between.
4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Popaj. I'll move on to my next topic.
5 In your June 1999 statement in paragraph 6 you say that:
6 One week before the NATO bombardment, Serb police and soldiers
7 came to your village ...
8 My question is this: Except for the policemen and soldiers at
9 that time as well as on the 25th of March, 1999, did you see any other or
10 additional members of the police?
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Any additional
12 members of Serb forces except for the policemen and soldiers.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were patrols on other days;
14 however, they came on the 22nd of March and opened trenches with
15 excavators at Naim Fetoshi's house, and they told Naim Fetoshi and his
16 members of the family, there were 38 of them, to leave their house. And
17 they stationed there -- and above the house of Naim Fetoshi on the hill
18 they opened the trenches. I'm telling you about all the things that I
19 know. It was on the 22nd that they came, 22nd of March. And the
20 trenches are still there. I can take pictures if you want.
21 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Thank you. That is already in your statement. Could you please
23 answer my questions because this would save us time and we would conclude
24 more quickly. We have all that in your statement. My question is this
25 and I'll try to be specific: On the 25th of March did you have an
1 opportunity to see -- Mr. Popaj, please wait until I finish my question
2 and then answer.
3 A. I will answer all the questions that you have about my statement.
4 Q. If we both speak at the same time, we'll do nothing. Am I right
5 in saying that on the 25th of March, 1999, you saw members of the
6 paramilitary in your village?
7 A. I saw Serb policemen and army members. I don't know what you
8 mean by the word "paramilitaries." I'm talking of the Serb army and
10 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's take a look at
11 Exhibit P01083, please, page 5753, lines 5 and 6. That would be the
12 Milutinovic case transcript. Transcript page 5753, lines 5 and 6.
13 Q. Asked whether you saw paramilitaries you answered:
14 "Yes, I did ... it was the paramilitaries who did the execution
15 of the 74 people from" my "village; it wasn't me who did" that.
16 My question is: Did you see paramilitaries on the
17 25th of March, 1999, in your village?
18 A. From the 25th to the 4th of May, every single day, because they
19 started from the 25th and they ended setting fire to the houses on the
20 4th of May. They were there until the 4th of May. On the 4th of May
21 they went to the hill in the direction of the road that leads to Potoqan.
22 MR. BEHAR: If I could just --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Every single day I saw them.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Behar.
25 MR. BEHAR: Yes, thank you, Your Honours. Just before we
1 continue on that point, if my friend is going to be putting a question
2 about the paramilitaries from the Milutinovic transcript I think it's
3 also fair to take the witness to the passage in which he's asked
4 specifically what he means by paramilitary, that's at page 5766 of the
5 transcript, beginning at line 19.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] By "paramilitaries," I mean those
7 people who kill others.
8 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may we continue? The
9 witness just expressed his opinion on what he understood paramilitaries
10 to mean.
11 JUDGE PARKER: The critical issue appears to be the one that is
12 dealt with in the questions of Judge Bonomy at page 5766, and in
13 particular the answer on page 5767, where this witness said the people
14 he's calling paramilitaries were part of the official police. They were
15 brought there in vehicles. They didn't come on foot.
16 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you're absolutely
17 right, but the Defence holds that this is a matter to be dealt with by my
18 learned friend in his re-direct. My question to the witness was whether
19 Mr. Popaj saw paramilitaries or not, and I absolutely agree that he may
20 express his opinion about what he means the word "paramilitaries" mean --
21 means. I'm going to move on to another topic.
22 Q. Mr. Popaj, could you explain to us how members of the police and
23 the army looked like, what uniforms they wore on the 25th of March, 1999
24 and if you could tell them apart, what was it that enabled you to tell
25 them apart?
1 A. I could distinguish them because the police were wearing lighter
2 camouflage colours. The army was wearing camouflage colours but of a
3 darker hue. I already explained that. But I was to blame for not taking
4 them at Fetoshi's house, the uniforms, like the maps.
5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Popaj.
6 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we see D002-5109 to be
7 shown, please.
8 Q. Mr. Popaj, now we are going to show you different patterns of
9 military uniforms. Please take a look at them and tell us whether any of
10 the patterns correspond to the patterns that you saw on the
11 25th of March, 1999, as worn by -- as a part of the uniform worn by
12 either police or the military.
13 A. I didn't see them only on that day. I told you, I saw them until
14 the 4th of May. Every single day in the village I saw them. In the
15 village until the 4th of May I saw these people.
16 Q. Very well. All the easier it will be for you to recognise some
17 of these patterns. Could you please tell us whether any of the patterns
18 shown here corresponds to what you saw. The number is D002-5109, but let
19 me double-check.
20 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] And that number is on the Defence
21 exhibit list, on the list that the Defence has indicated it will be
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This -- the police.
24 Q. Only that page?
25 A. Wait a little until I put on my glasses because I can't see them
1 well. This is the picture of the Serb uniforms, the army uniforms.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Could you put a circle around that one, please,
3 Mr. Popaj.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can do it right away.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Do that now, please, and put a
6 number 1 against that if you would.
7 Now, are there any others there that you recognise of those
8 camouflage patterns?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will circle all those uniforms
10 that I have seen then.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
12 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
13 JUDGE PARKER: Now, number 1 you said was a pattern that you said
14 was a Serb army uniform. The other patterns that you have circled, can
15 you tell us what uniforms they were?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These were the uniforms of the Serb
17 police both I have encircled here, both the army and the police, four
19 JUDGE PARKER: Four circles. Could you use number 1 for the Serb
20 army and number 2 for the Serb police. From what you are saying --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Also for the army. This is the
22 uniform they were wearing. Number 2, so number 1 and number 2 I think
23 belonged to the army uniforms.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. 1 and 2 you've circled are army. Now,
25 you've also circled two others. Are they the uniforms you believe of the
1 Serb police?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will explain. Those who came
3 with Pinzgauers at the house of Fetoshi, 1 and 3, they came with these
4 clothes. Those who forced the family members to leave the house. The
5 others were the uniforms of the people with tanks stationed in the
6 school-yard until the 4th of May. They were wearing the uniform that is
7 indicated in number 2.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
9 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --
10 JUDGE PARKER: We can't see at the moment whether you have
11 circled any more than three uniforms. Have you circled more than three?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have made four circles.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Right. You've told us what numbers 1, 2, and 3
14 are. Could you tell us now what number 4 is, please.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Number 4 shows the uniform that I
16 saw on the 12th or 13th of April. They were with the armoured car and
17 the truck, those that brought these eight corpses from Rahovec to be
18 buried in Celine.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
20 The Court Officer will, of course, bring that original exhibit
21 back with him and it will be marked as an exhibit.
22 Now, are there more issues you want to question about that,
23 Mr. Popovic?
24 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one, Your Honour. Thank you.
25 Q. Could you please tell us which of the four that you encircled was
1 the uniform of the police?
2 A. This one, the third.
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Popaj.
4 JUDGE PARKER: The Court Officer will give an exhibit number now
5 so that there is less room for confusion.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the marked photograph will be given
7 exhibit number D00314.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
9 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Sir, am I right in saying that in your today's statement you said
11 that after the event under the bridge you did not go to Zrze with your
12 mother, father, and sister?
13 A. I am not Mr. Zhuniqi. I am Mr. Popaj. You have mixed it up.
14 Q. I apologise. Right -- I apologise for misspeaking your name, but
15 the question is the same. Is it true that in today's testimony you said
16 that you did not with your wife, mother, and father go to Zrze after the
17 incident at the bridge or under the bridge?
18 A. After the event, I did not go until the tractor came. When the
19 tractor came, I went to Xerxe together with the wounded persons. I said
20 I didn't go when we went to Albania
21 think you are mixing it up.
22 Q. Mr. Popaj, I'm going to read out what you said in 1999. Page 5,
23 paragraph 2, in the Serbian version.
24 "We, my mother, father, wife, then walked to Xerxe after that."
25 So in 1999 you state that you went to Zrze.
1 A. We went along with the tractor. The tractor drove. We followed
2 the tractor walking. When we loaded the wounded, my wife, my father, my
3 mother, and my aunt, along with myself, we all followed the tractor on
5 Q. This is what you stated today. I'm going to read out what you
6 stated in 1999. It was something different. In 1999 in the same
7 paragraph you said:
8 "Two villagers volunteered to return to the scene with a tractor
9 and trailer and bring the survivors back to Xerxe, Abaz Kryeziu and
10 Shemsedin Kelmendi accompanied by father Selim, wife Fidaije, and aunt
11 Zymryde back to the scene of the execution to bring back the survivors.
12 They went on the tractor owned by Abaz Kryeziu. After about one hour
13 they returned with the survivors on the trailer."
14 So you never mentioned yourself as somebody who left Zrze?
15 A. -- all returned.
16 Q. Yes, but in the first sentence, Mr. Popaj, you say:
17 "We, my mother, father, wife, and I then walked to Xerxe. On
18 arrival I saw that the other women, children, and old men had arrived
19 safely in the village."
20 So you claim that you arrived to Zrze. You say "on arrival."
21 This is what you stated in 1999. Today you are stating something else.
22 Am I right in saying so?
23 A. I said even then that when we went to Xerxe we were together with
24 the wounded persons, all of us. It was there, in Xerxe, that I met my
25 brother, his children, his wife, my brother's wife and children. I saw
1 all the women who were there and everything that I mentioned in my
2 statement. There was also Fedaije [phoen], Fatos' wife, the mother of
3 Labinot Zukiqi [phoen]. I haven't mentioned that in my statement, but
4 I'm telling you now.
5 I would like to invite the usher to give you your June 1999
6 statement, that is P01082 on page 6 in the Albanian.
7 A. I read it.
8 Q. Below the names there begins a paragraph where you state that you
9 went to Zrze, that you arrived there, and that after that, after your
10 arrival, your father, Abaz Kryeziu, and Shemsedin Kelmendi, together with
11 your wife and aunt, went back to the execution site to bring back the
12 survivors. You can read it for yourself since you today are stating
13 something completely different. Am I right in saying so?
14 A. I have already stated, even during the Milutinovic case, that
15 they came with a tractor. We went to the scene of the event and we
16 loaded the wounded persons on to the tractor, and then we returned to
18 Q. Mr. Popaj, I'm asking you about your 1999 statement and you
19 stated yourself that your memory was the freshest then, having been taken
20 at three months after the event. What you stated in that statement is --
21 does not correspond to what you are saying today. Is it -- what I'm
22 asking you to say is: What is the truth, what you said back in 1999 or
23 what you're saying today, because those two stories are not identical?
24 A. I didn't have a good -- fresh memory then because at that time I
25 weighed 37 kilogrammes. I was not in a good health condition at that
1 time. I was -- I weighed simply 37 kilogrammes. I'm telling you what
2 happened, how people came there, how we went to fetch the victims, the
3 wounded persons, and so on. You can ask even the other persons who were
4 present; they can tell you the same story.
5 Q. Mr. Popaj, the questions to follow concern Mr. Zhuniqi and this
6 is why I mixed up your names. Please, since you do not -- did not have a
7 very good memory back in 1999 - and this is the basis for my
8 examination - please tell us the following things. You gave a statement
9 in 1999 and then in 2002, after that in 2006 and we went through that at
10 the beginning of my cross-examination. I have not found Mr. Isuf Zhuniqi
11 being mentioned in either of those statements or testimonies; am I right?
12 MR. BEHAR: Sorry for the interruption, Your Honour --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't mention Isuf Zhuniqi --
14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Behar --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- because he came here himself and
16 gave testimony and he also stated that he met me then.
17 MR. BEHAR: I apologise for the interruption, Your Honour.
18 Mr. Zhuniqi was actually mentioned in the Milutinovic transcript, and
19 with just a moment's indulgence I can find that reference.
20 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you think that
21 this would be a good time for a break, we can in the meantime help my
22 learned friend to find the reference and then continue after that. I'm
23 going to make sure that my cross-examination is finished as soon as
24 possible after we resume after the break, 20 minutes to 30 minutes tops.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
1 Mr. Popaj, we'll have another break now to give you another
2 chance for a rest, and we continue at 1.00. So we'll have another break
4 --- Recess taken at 12.26 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 1.03 p.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Popaj, we continue now. Mr. Popovic has a few
7 more questions.
8 Mr. Popovic.
9 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before I begin I
10 wanted to draw your attention to something. Mr. Behar pointed out a page
11 in -- at which Mr. Popaj mentions Mr. Zhuniqi. It is page 5669 in the
12 Milutinovic case, line 8 and line 9. While on that topic, could the
13 Court Officer please put P01083 on the screen which is a page of the
14 transcript from the Milutinovic case, page 5669.
15 Q. Mr. Popaj, I have a question about Isuf Zhuniqi, you mentioned
16 him at page 5669, lines 8 and 9. You said:
17 "We heard Isuf Zhuniqi screaming" or yelling.
18 You did not mention where he was at that point. As one of the
19 survivors, you did not mention him as one of the persons on the list of
20 the survivors you compiled; am I correct?
21 THE INTERPRETER: We don't have any audio.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Is it the case that you cannot hear us?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you now.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
25 Well, Mr. Popovic will ask again his question.
1 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Of course.
2 Q. Mr. Popaj, in your previous statements you did not say where
3 Mr. Isuf Zhuniqi was and you did not mention him as one of the survivors.
4 Am I correct in saying that?
5 A. I did not mention him because he was not on the tractor. The
6 statement contains the names of the people who were loaded on the tractor
7 as survivors. He left the place of the execution before we took the
8 wounded. Isuf Zhuniqi was there, and I mentioned that in my statement.
9 Q. I will use this opportunity to read again from page 4 of your
10 statement of 1999, the last paragraph. You mention your wife and you
11 say, She returned some 20 minutes later telling me that nine people
12 survived the execution. She named the following persons, and there you
13 mentioned the names. There you did not mention that any of them were on
14 the tractor. You referred to them as those who survived the execution.
15 Can you clarify this discrepancy between what was said then and now?
16 I.e., you mentioned fine survivors without mentioning --
17 A. [Previous translation continues]... discrepancy, sir. I have
18 explained very clearly when we went there -- in fact, it was my wife that
19 saw them first, but we went and loaded them on the tractor. After that,
20 we went to Xerxe to Abaz Kryeziu's house, and -- except for Sezai Zhuniqi
21 who died in 2006, Alban Popaj and --
22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the name of the
23 second person --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- who died on the same day. One
25 on the 25th and one on the 26th of May -- of March.
1 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Mr. Popaj, this is what you said today and it does not tally with
3 what you said in 1999. You say that your wife told you of nine
4 survivors. You mentioned the first and last names of those people.
5 Never did you mention that these nine people returned to Xerxe with you
6 on that tractor. You just say that she told you there were nine
7 survivors. We have their first and last names. Among those, we don't
8 find Isuf Zhuniqi. So you never said those people were on that tractor
9 in the statement of 1999.
10 Can you clarify that?
11 A. I always mentioned that these people were transported by tractor
12 to Xerxe. When we saw Isuf Zhuniqi we were at the train tracks, and
13 Isuf Zhuniqi was walking and screaming and he -- we understood from his
14 gestures that they had been executed. Then they went to Xerxe and
15 Abaz Kryeziu and Kelmendi came back, and we took those persons who
16 survived the massacres. When we went to Xerxe, Hysni Popaj died and
17 Alban Popaj died the next day in the early hours of the morning. Then
18 another person died in 2006 which was Sezai Zhuniqi.
19 Q. Mr. Popaj, you have already repeated that on several occasions
20 today. I am trying to focus on your statement of 1999. If need be, the
21 Court Officer can provide you with the statement for you to remind
22 yourself. If you explain to me that at that time you were unable to
23 recollect everything clearly, I will accept that as your answer, but can
24 you please focus on my questions since you seem to be repeating yourself.
25 You seem to be answering a question that was not put. In any case, let's
1 not dwell on that any longer.
2 In your statement at page 7, paragraph 6, you say that five
3 minutes after the event under the bridge you heard of a third shooting
4 which took place but that you did not see any of it. Am I right in
5 saying that concerning the third incident in which you supposed six
6 people were killed whom you found later, a day later, am I right in
7 saying that everything you told us about that incident is merely an
8 assumption on your part?
9 A. I did not see the killing, but I saw the persons when I buried
10 them. They were Hysni Zhuniqi, Sedat Popaj, Irfan Popaj, Nirsi [as
11 interpreted] Zhuniqi, and Agim Zhuniqi, that I buried with my own hands,
12 85 metres away from the first place.
13 Q. Thank you. Mr. Popaj, am I right in saying that you were not an
14 eye-witness and that you have no direct knowledge about the way that
15 these people were killed and whom you buried later on when we are talking
16 about groups of people?
17 A. Six persons. This was the Muslim priest of the village, the
18 Dervish, the -- my cousins were in that group. And I can give you their
19 dates of birth if you want.
20 Q. Obviously you did not understand the question. My question was
21 this: Am I right in saying that you were not an eye-witness and that you
22 have no direct knowledge about the way these people were killed, the
23 people you found and buried? I'm not referring to the event that you
24 have described already --
25 A. [Previous translation continues]... not an eye-witness, but I
1 heard the shots. I thought in the beginning that they were just shooting
2 in the air, but Muharrem Zhuniqi told me on the 27th in the evening, and
3 then I went there and found them. It was not my father who killed them.
4 It was the same policeman who killed the previous group that killed them
6 Q. Those were your assumptions and you have already testified to
7 that. What was missing from my question was this, and it was not
8 interpreted: Am I right in saying that you were not an eye-witness and
9 that you have no direct knowledge about the way the people you found and
10 buried in Celine, to the effect, how they were killed? I tried to put
11 that question several times. I mean Celine itself.
12 A. [Previous translation continues]... heard the shot, and I buried
13 them myself. I did not eye-witness the killing. I heard the shots, and
14 I buried them myself.
15 Q. In your statement, Mr. Popaj, you say that in Celine you found
16 and buried 84 corpses; am I correct?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. Do you know a person by the name Jemini Agim?
19 A. Yes, I know him. It was with him that I buried those people.
20 Q. Is your testimony going to change if I tell you that Jemini Agim
21 was heard before this Tribunal. In that testimony, he said he found and
22 buried 78 victims during the 21 days of burials?
23 A. Agim was not there when we buried the other seven people. He did
24 not mention them. I can give you the names if you want. We found five
25 in a basement and then also some other people, two other people, in a
2 Q. In -- from the previous sentence, page 66, line 2, you said you
3 know him and that he was the person who was with you when you were
4 burying those people. That is why I was asking you that question. Given
5 that we are short of time, I am about to move to another topic. At
6 page 9 of your statement, the last paragraph in B/C/S --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Popovic kindly repeat the references
8 in the English and Albanian versions.
9 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Certainly. The references are as
10 follows: Page 10, paragraph 4 in the English; page 13, paragraph 4 in
11 the Albanian.
12 Q. You say the following:
13 I heard the sound of jet aircraft in low flight. After several
14 seconds you heard four strong detonations. You went to the village of
15 Nagavc and you discovered a house completely destroyed and four seriously
17 Mr. Popaj, the houses -- or first of all, did you see the craters
18 created by the bombs dropped there and do you bring the four explosions
19 and destroyed houses in connection with the low-flying aircraft?
20 A. Yes, I heard them. It was -- it was about twenty to 2.00 after
22 had remained on the roofs, and we couldn't hear anything. That day, we
23 went back to where we were staying. We went to Feim Elshani's yard later
24 on, and there we found Sanije Kasapi [phoen] dead. And two days later we
25 found eight children under 10 years old in one of the houses who had been
1 killed by the explosion. I have explained this in my statement as well.
2 Q. Am I right in saying that the explosion that you referred to
3 killing the persons you mentioned was actually caused by the bombs
4 dropped from the low-flying aircraft; is that your statement?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. Did you know that there is a report of the MUP staff of the
7 Republic of Serbia
8 forces bombed the village of Nagavc
9 were killed?
10 A. I don't know, but I don't think it was NATO planes. NATO planes
11 dropped bombs between Rogove and Xerxe, and it was during the day.
12 Q. And hence you conclude that NATO aircraft did not drop those
13 bombs, given that it was night-time and it was not between Rogovo and
15 A. You may ask the NATO commander at -- who was then the commander.
16 Maybe he has taken shells from Milosevic and has dropped them there, but
17 these were Serbian-make shells. You are saying that it was NATO who
18 dropped them and not Serbia
19 Q. [Previous translation continues]... basis -- can you tell us what
20 is the basis for you to claim that these were Serbian-made bombs?
21 A. Because they had Cyrillic letters written on the -- these shells.
22 Q. Can you read the Cyrillic script, Mr. Popaj?
23 A. I have started to learn it now. I can't read it.
24 Q. I am not asking you about now --
25 A. [Previous translation continues]... no --
1 Q. -- I am interested in 1999. At that time, could you read
3 A. Yes, I went to school. For eight years I was taught Serbian. Of
4 course I knew how to read Cyrillic.
5 Q. At line 6 of the same page, that is to say half a minute ago, you
6 said that you started to learn the Cyrillic script and that you still
7 cannot read it. What has changed in the half a minute? When did you
8 learn to read Cyrillic?
9 A. I already told you. You're asking me irrelevant questions. I
10 told you that the shells were Serbian make. After my return from
11 The Hague
12 remainders, and bring them here to this Tribunal. You might ask
13 Feim Elshani, because I went to his house after I returned from here in
14 2006. Right from the airport I went to his house to see these shrapnels
15 myself and you might have read it yourself had you seen these shrapnels.
16 Q. Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Elshani being asked about that
17 upon your return in 2006, whereupon he said he was not in possession of
18 any bomb parts with any Cyrillic inscriptions?
19 A. He has told you that they were taken by the German KFORs and that
20 the shells, when they were taken from him, that present was also someone,
21 Arbour, I don't know what the name is, from the Tribunal, when we exhumed
22 16 members of the Myftari family.
23 Q. Mr. Popaj, did you know that NATO conducted an internal
24 investigation. There is not a single part such as the one you describe
25 that were handed over to the German KFOR. Do you have any information
1 regarding that? This document is something we received from the
3 A. I have no information about that because ten years have passed
4 since then, and my belief was that these parts were there. Feim didn't
5 want to give these parts to me. He wanted -- he told me that he wanted
6 to keep them for himself, but then the German KFOR came and they took it
7 away. I'm not an expert on army matters.
8 Q. I'm -- I know that, Mr. Popaj. That's why I'm not asking you
9 about military issues. My last question on this topic then is: Do you
10 know what it was that the Cyrillic sign said? Which were the letters you
11 could see?
12 A. I don't remember, but I know that they were Serbian shells. Only
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Popaj. Can you tell us the exact date when the
15 mosques in Bela Crkva, Celine, Rogovo were blown up, as you say?
16 A. On the 28th of March. It was a day of Bajram.
17 Q. Are you going to change your statement if I tell you that
18 Jemini Agim spoke on the same circumstances before the Tribunal and he
19 said that in Celine the mosque was destroyed on the 30th or the
20 31st of March, 1999?
21 A. It was on the 28th when the three mosques were shelled.
22 Bashkim Jemini was in hiding. He didn't see anything, together with
23 Jusuf Jemini. I was there in a field from where you can see all over.
24 You can see the mosque. Even today you can see the mosque. We have
25 built a new one.
1 Q. Just to clarify matters. My question referred to Agim Jemini,
2 and you referred to Bashkim and Jusuf Jemini. But my question concerned
3 Agim Jemini. Did you mean him when you said that he was hiding in the
4 basement and didn't see anything?
5 A. Yes, I meant Agim and Jusuf Jemini. They are my first cousins.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 A. They were at the attic when their family were killed in the
9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Popaj. My next question: Is it known to you that
10 the mosques in your village and the surrounding villages were used as KLA
12 A. I don't know that -- have built them from the beginning now. Do
13 you think we have built the new mosques to be used as military bases?
14 Now we have extended the area of the mosques from 46 to 56 metres.
15 Q. All questions I put to you concern 1999, or rather, the end of
16 1998 and 1999. So what you are discussing is not the matter I'm asking
17 you about. I would like to ask the Chamber for their indulgence. I'm
18 sure that I can finish in five to ten minutes, and then give some time
19 for Mr. Behar for his re-direct. I'm going to make sure that this is
20 quick, as quick as possible.
21 JUDGE PARKER: You will have to be quicker than that because we
22 finish at a quarter to and Mr. Behar must re-examine by then. So you
23 identify what is important and deal with it very quickly.
24 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Absolutely. I've discussed this
25 with Mr. Behar before we resumed about what he needed for his re-direct,
1 and I'm going to act accordingly.
2 D004-2765, can we see it on the e-court, please. 004-2675, so
3 it's the last four digit 2675.
4 Q. And before we see it on the screen let me tell you, it is a book
5 published by the state archives of Kosovo, the sector of the KLA
6 archives, prepared by Nusret Plana and published by Grafo Print Shop at
7 Pristina. Mr. Emin Kabashi is a redactor, also a witness in these
8 proceedings, and there is an editorial committee on page 3, Adem Demaqi,
9 Agim Qeku, Mr. Kabashi -- I'm not going to list all of them. My
10 question, if the Chamber permits me, would concern page 4 in e-court,
11 that would be page 412 of the book in question, and I would like to ask
12 Mr. Popaj to tell us whether he can recognise the mosque, or rather, the
13 picture and tell us whether this depicts the mosque at Rogovo.
14 A. It is not the Rogove mosque, this one.
15 Q. Could I please ask you to read out - and I don't -- I hope it's
16 not going to be a problem - what is written below under item 4, or
17 rather, I could tell you. It is a mosque built in 1578, built in
18 Rogove e Hasit. Is this the Rovogo that we are dealing with right now?
19 A. We have another photo of this mosque. Maybe this is an aerial
20 picture. We have repaired the destroyed mosque. We have retained the
21 foundations and have built on them. You can take a picture of a mosque
22 from anywhere, but to me this is not the Rogove mosque.
23 Q. So you claim that this is not the Rogovo mosque. Let us be as
24 precise as possible because the following questions stem from the issue
25 of the Rovogo mosque.
1 A. No, it is not. It writes Rogove -- the Rogove mosque, but this
2 is not the picture that I know of the Rogove mosque. Every village had a
3 mosque that was destroyed.
4 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I move to adduce
5 this into evidence?
6 JUDGE PARKER: It will be marked for identification.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00315, marked
8 for identification.
9 JUDGE PARKER: I would suggest you have one more question,
10 Mr. Popovic.
11 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Absolutely, Your Honours. This is
12 my last question.
13 Q. Mr. Popaj, could you please describe for us what members of the
14 police looked like at the border crossing when you were crossing over to
16 inscription "policija" or "police." Could you please specify where it
17 was written, in which script, how, and some more details about that?
18 A. I was not an expert to look closely at them. I saw the
19 "policija" written on the arm and in the jacket -- on the jacket, here
20 and here. I was not there for pleasure, and I was not an expert.
21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Popaj. This would conclude my cross-examination.
22 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I
23 apologise to my learned friend for shortening his re-direct.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Behar.
25 MR. BEHAR: Yes, thank you, Your Honours. I did speak to my
1 friend previously and indicated that I had less than ten minutes of
2 questions which is accurate. I think hopefully I can do this in five to
3 ten minutes.
4 Re-examination by Mr. Behar:
5 Q. Sir, you were asked some questions earlier about Isuf Zhuniqi and
6 about that list of survivors that's at page 5 of your statement that was
7 given in June of 1999. My question for you is that when you saw
8 Isuf Zhuniqi, can you tell us, did you see him before your wife went back
9 to the stream and then identified those nine survivors that she saw
11 A. Yes, I saw him before.
12 Q. So then to put that another way, when your wife went to the
13 stream and saw those nine people, Isuf Zhuniqi had run away already?
14 A. Yes, he had already run away. He was no longer there. That is
15 the truth.
16 Q. Is that why he was not included in that list?
17 A. Yes. I didn't include his name because when I was asked, the
18 question was: Who did you take on top of the tractor? How many persons
19 did you lead onto this tractor? And that's why I didn't mention him. I
20 mentioned the persons that we loaded onto the tractor, those that we
21 carried to the other village.
22 Q. Thank you, sir. Also a few moments ago you were asked a couple
23 of questions about Agim Jemini. I was just looking back at the
24 transcript -- one of the transcript references, and I noted that
25 Mr. Jemini said that he believed it was six or seven days after the
1 24th of March that the mosque was bombed. I wanted to put that to you
2 accurately. But my question for you, sir, is that: You mentioned that
3 Agim Jemini, you believed, was in the attic when his family was killed in
4 the basement; is that correct?
5 A. This is what Agim Jemini told me, and I am repeating his words.
6 We went to look for his family to bury -- members, to bury them, and we
7 didn't find them. We found two other bodies, Isad Dini [as interpreted]
8 and his brother. We found them in the yard of Jahir Rexhepi.
9 Q. Thank you, sir. And that's what I was going to ask you. I was
10 going to ask how you knew that information about Mr. Jemini. So am I
11 correct in understanding that he had told you that he was in the attic
12 when his family was killed in the basement; is that right?
13 A. That's correct. This is what he told me, that he heard the
14 shots. He was together with Isufi in this attic.
15 Q. And if I'm understanding you correct then, sir, did he tell you
16 that during this period in 1999 and then were you saying that you then
17 after he told you that went with him to look for the bodies; is that
19 A. Yes, that's correct.
20 Q. Did you find those bodies?
21 A. No, we found them at a later time in Rahovec, after our return.
22 They were executed and their bodies taken to Rahovec.
23 Q. Thank you, sir. Those are my questions.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thanks to you.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Popaj, you'll be pleased to know that that
2 concludes the questions of the Chamber. We have your statement and your
3 previous evidence as well as what you have said today, and we will give
4 those full consideration in due course. We're thankful for your
5 assistance and what you've been able to say today to clarify a number of
6 issues. The Court Officer will assist you now, but that concludes your
7 evidence today. Tomorrow we will be dealing with another witness from
8 Pristina. So we thank you again for your assistance.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I want to thank you, Your Honours.
10 I apologise if sometimes I have made some mistakes, but I want to thank
11 you very much.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you then.
13 [The witness withdrew via videolink]
14 JUDGE PARKER: We will now adjourn for today and continuing at
15 9.00 in the morning.
16 May I mention that as we sit at 9 tomorrow we must finish the
17 videolink of the remaining witness tomorrow. The parties need to be
18 aware of that.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.
20 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 15th day of
21 July, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.