1 Wednesday, 15 July 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning.
6 And good morning to those in Pristina.
7 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Good morning, Your Honours. We --
8 JUDGE PARKER: I see the new witness is ready. Good morning to
9 you, sir.
10 Would you please read aloud the affirmation that is shown to you
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
14 WITNESS: WITNESS K74
15 [Witness testified via videolink]
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Please sit down.
18 Now, there are some questions for you this morning. Mr. Behar
19 will ask the first questions. Thank you.
20 MR. BEHAR: Thank you, Your Honours.
21 Examination by Mr. Behar:
22 Q. Good morning, sir. Thank you very much for joining us here
23 today. I'm going to begin, if we can, by asking you to look at a
24 document --
25 A. Thank you.
1 Q. -- that contains some personal information related to you. This
2 is 65 ter number 02513, and it's at tab 2513 there at the witness binder
3 you have. I think it's just been handed to you. Can you just read that
4 quietly to yourself, sir, and can you tell me now is the information on
5 that document, your name, date, and place of birth correct?
6 A. Yes, they are.
7 Q. Thank you, sir.
8 MR. BEHAR: Your Honours, I would seek to tender that pseudonym
9 sheet under seal, please.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, it will be received.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01093 under
13 MR. BEHAR:
14 Q. And just a reminder, sir, before we move on that I'll be
15 referring to you as K74 here today in order to protect your identity and
16 that will be true for all the parties here today.
17 I understand, sir, that on the 23rd of April, 1999, you gave a
18 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor about the events that you
19 experienced in Kosovo; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And have you had the opportunity to read that statement before
22 coming to court today?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I understand that there are several things that you'd like to
25 clarify about that statement. I'll take you through those clarifications
1 one by one, and I can just say up front, sir, one of the things that I'm
2 hoping to do today to assist the Trial Chamber is to focus on
3 distinguishing the things that you saw personally and some of the things
4 that you learned from other people. I'm going to be referring here to
5 65 ter 2517.
6 MR. BEHAR: And perhaps it would be helpful if the witness could
7 be provided with a copy of that statement as well. It's in the binder
8 under that tab.
9 Q. Sir, we'll begin at page 3, it's page 3, paragraph 4, in the
10 English. There's a line that states -- I can just read it out loud to
11 you. A line states:
12 "At this house, the daughter, Shpresa Cana, aged 43, opened the
13 door and was shot dead immediately ..."
14 My first question for you, sir, is: Are those events -- is that
15 event something that you saw personally or is that something that you
16 were told about?
17 A. No, I didn't see it myself. Others told me about it.
18 Q. And today are you still confident to say that Shpresa Cana
19 "opened the door and was shot dead immediately ..."?
20 A. I cannot certify it because, as I said, I didn't eye-witness it.
21 Q. Thank you, sir. The next reference I'll make, in the English
22 this is at page 3, the final paragraph, I believe it's the same in the
23 B/C/S. The fourth line states and I'll read it aloud again.
24 "They machine-gunned every room of my houses and ensured that the
25 burning was complete ..."
1 And again then my question for you, sir -- my first question:
2 Was that something you saw personally or were you told about that?
3 A. No, I didn't see it personally, but after the offensive was over
4 when we went in the direction of Albania we saw the holes of the bullets
5 and that was all. We didn't see more than that.
6 Q. I see. So is that a conclusion then that you reached based on
7 that evidence you described seeing when you returned?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. My next reference is from page 4, paragraph 4, of the
10 statement --
11 A. I also have some photos. We took them.
12 Q. Photos of the aftermath, sir?
13 A. Yes, the photographs of the aftermath, when we came back.
14 Q. Thank you. My next question refers to a statement which
15 states -- a line that states:
16 "The Serb attackers then went on the other side of the street to
17 the compound of Luli Vejsa ..."
18 And I understand there was something that you wanted to clarify
19 with respect to the timing of that event or the timing as it sounds from
20 that statement. Is that something that you can address?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And in the place in which it's inserted when it says:
23 "The Serb attackers then went on the other side of the street to
24 the compound of Luli Vejsa ..."
25 Are you confident about the sequence in which Luli Vejsa's house
1 was burned, or are you unsure about the timing of that?
2 A. I am uncertain about the time, but everything that I say has
4 Q. I understand that. Just to put that back to you, sir, just so
5 we're clear. You're saying you are confident about the burning. You're
6 just not sure when in the order of houses were burned that it was burned;
7 is that correct?
8 A. Yes, that's correct.
9 Q. Thank you. In that same paragraph there's another sentence that
11 "Luli's house was not connected to any other houses, therefore it
12 was a target for the Serbs."
13 Is there something you wanted to clarify about that line?
14 A. No, I don't think there is anything I want to clarify because he
15 had a neighbour who was a Serb.
16 Q. Was Luli's house connected to a Serb house or did it stand -- was
17 it independent?
18 A. It was separate -- independent. It was far from it, about 1 or 2
19 metres. It was separated by a narrow street.
20 Q. I see, sir. I think I understand that position now. And just so
21 I'm clear then, was it still a target, as you described?
22 A. I wouldn't say it was a target in the sense that they were bad
23 persons and they wanted -- the Serbs wanted to shoot at them.
24 Q. Okay. Well, I think we have your -- I think we have your
25 position on that.
1 I'll take you to page 5, the second paragraph, there's a line
2 there that states:
3 "I saw Luli's house bursting in flames."
4 Is that accurate that you saw the house bursting in flames?
5 A. No.
6 Q. And is that something you were made aware of in another manner,
7 that Luli's house had burned?
8 A. At the time we saw it after we left, the whole neighbourhood was
10 Q. And so if I'm understanding it right is that you saw the house
11 burning but you didn't see when it first burst into flames, when it first
12 started burning; am I understanding that correctly?
13 A. Yes, that's correct. We didn't see it.
14 Q. Okay. Thank you for clarifying that.
15 At page 6, paragraph 2 - it's actually in paragraph 1 of the
16 B/C/S for my friend - there is a sentence that states:
17 "When I got near my house, I saw a man standing outside my front
18 gate with a rifle so I did not risk my life for the car."
19 Now, I understand, sir, you may be able to clarify where it was
20 exactly that you saw the man standing.
21 A. The man was standing in a part which belonged to the Serbs, in --
22 out in the street, across the -- across my house.
23 Q. So he wasn't standing directly outside your front gate but he was
24 standing across from the house?
25 A. He was about 100 metres away.
1 Q. Thank you, sir. With those clarifications or changes having been
2 made, I'd like to ask you: Other than the changes that you already made
3 when you testified in the Milutinovic case, are you satisfied that the
4 changes -- pardon me, are you satisfied that the information contained in
5 your statement now is true and accurate to the best of your knowledge and
7 A. Yes, I am.
8 Q. Thank you very much, sir.
9 MR. BEHAR: Your Honours, I would seek to tender that witness
10 statement. The unredacted version is 2517 and that's to be tendered
11 under seal, please.
12 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01094, under
15 MR. BEHAR: There is also a redacted version of that same
16 statement to be tendered as a public exhibit, that's 65 ter 02532. I
17 would seek to tender that as well, please.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01095.
20 MR. BEHAR: Thank you.
21 Q. Sir, do you recall testifying at the trial of Milan Milutinovic
22 on the 29th of November, 2006?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
25 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we are again dealing
1 with correcting the transcript. My position is that this is no way to
2 correct the transcript. He should be asking the witness, and then on the
3 basis of the answer correct the transcript. Thank you.
4 JUDGE PARKER: We had occasion to mention that again yesterday,
5 Mr. Djurdjic. The procedure is one we are satisfied with.
6 Please carry on, Mr. Behar.
7 MR. BEHAR:
8 Q. Sir, I understand that there's one thing, one issue, you wanted
9 to clarify that's presently recorded in the transcript. I'll read this
10 section out loud to you, and for my friend and the Chamber I can indicate
11 it's at page 7513 of the transcript at line 15. And at that point, sir,
12 an exchange takes place. There is a question:
13 "Q. Apart from the corrections you've made, you've gone through
14 your statement, are there any other corrections you want to make?"
15 There was an answer there:
16 "A. Yes, when it says Mentor Deda was hanged, I didn't say this.
17 I said that he was killed in the yard."
18 Is there something you wanted to clarify about that passage?
19 A. Mentor Deda is still alive. Yes, Mentor Deda is still alive.
20 Q. And who was it that you were meaning to refer to there in that
21 passage that was being corrected?
22 A. I meant his nephew.
23 Q. Is that Argjend Demjaha?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you. Just again at line 22 is a similar change. The
1 question was:
2 "Q. But did you see him when he was killed or you heard it from
3 other people?"
4 And your answer was:
5 "A. No, Mentor
6 Again, is there a clarification or something you wanted to
7 explain about that?
8 A. I meant Argjend.
9 Q. Thank you, sir. Having said that, does this -- sorry, were you
10 saying something there --
11 A. It was Mentor
12 Q. Right. In other words, when you heard -- you heard that Argjend
13 was dead, it was Mentor
14 A. Yes, yes. Yes. Mentor
15 jumped through the wall.
16 Q. Sir, having made that clarification or those comments, does the
17 transcript now accurately reflect your evidence and would you testify to
18 those same facts today?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. BEHAR: Your Honours, I would seek to tender that transcript,
22 65 ter number 05063.
23 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01096.
25 MR. BEHAR: I can now provide a very brief summary of this
1 witness's evidence.
2 K74 was a resident of Djakovica. He describes Serb police and
3 paramilitaries burning down Albanian houses and killing Albanian
4 civilians in the town in April of 1999. He testifies about the houses
5 that were burnt down and the people who lived in those houses. He also
6 testifies about the killing of civilians.
7 K74 also describes how he and about 500 other people hid in an
8 elevated neighbourhood of the village and eventually moved in a convoy
9 towards the Albanian border. He describes police directing them along
10 the way, and he describes that he recognised one of the officers. At the
11 border, police took and confiscated their identification documents.
12 That is the end of the summary.
13 Q. Sir, I do have some questions for you in the limited time that we
14 have remaining. As I mentioned before, one of the things that I'm hoping
15 to do here was to distinguish some of the things that you saw personally
16 from things that you learned or that you heard from other people. And my
17 first question, this relates again for my friend, for the Chamber, to
18 page 2 of your statement, the second paragraph, you describe that Serb
19 paramilitaries had set up their operations at
20 Stella Construction Material, which I take it is a building, and you
21 described that they had snipers and that that caused you to live in fear?
22 My question relating to that is: Did you see those snipers
24 A. We saw them entering and leaving the place because they used to
25 go in and go out often.
1 Q. And did you yourself see something that caused you to conclude
2 that there were snipers there and can you describe what that was?
3 A. I saw them going in and out, other than going there for a
4 purpose, one wouldn't go there. They went there to look round, to see
5 what was going on around that place.
6 Q. And was there an -- did you see the guns or did you see guns that
7 made you think that they were snipers?
8 A. No, I didn't see weapons or guns, but that was the general
9 belief, that people were there for that purpose.
10 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir. Just before we move on, can you just
11 explain then when it was that you were making these observations?
12 A. Before NATO strikes began.
13 Q. And I think you may have mentioned a month before. I'm not sure
14 if -- I think I heard that earlier. Can you give us an approximation of
15 the amount of time before the NATO strikes.
16 A. About two or three weeks before NATO air-strikes began. I can't
17 recall exactly when.
18 Q. Thank you. Sir, there's a paragraph in your statement that
19 appears to contain a number of different ideas and passages that seems to
20 have caused some confusion in your previous testimony, and I'd like to
21 see if you can help us to break it down and to understand what it was
22 that you saw or didn't see and when that took place. The reference for
23 my friends, this is at page 4, paragraph 6 of the statement.
24 I'll just read you the parts I'm interested about, sir. The
25 first part of that sentence states:
1 "Since the very first night of NATO bombing, they were patrolling
2 the streets, holding hand-held lamps, and sending signals to each other."
3 Can you tell us, sir, is that what -- what you described in that
4 line, is that something you saw?
5 A. This was prior to the strikes.
6 Q. And can you tell us when that would have been then, the dates
7 roughly that you saw that, the time-period that you saw that?
8 A. A long time has passed since then, but I would say about
9 10 or 15 days before the bombing.
10 Q. And again, just so we're clear, is it -- is that something that
11 you saw? Did you see the people patrolling the streets, sending signals
12 to each other?
13 A. I already said this, two or three weeks before that happened.
14 Q. Right. What I'm just trying to understand, sir, just so we're
15 absolutely clear, I'm trying to distinguish -- or just to make sure that
16 we know that that's something that you saw as opposed to something that
17 you were told by somebody else. I'm just wondering if you can clarify
18 for the Judges. Is -- did you see that yourself, what you've described
20 A. Yes, I saw it myself. They were using hand-held lamps and
21 they -- these persons belonged to the two Serb houses.
22 Q. And can you tell us what those people were wearing, if you
24 A. I didn't see the persons. I saw the lights, the lamps they were
25 holding at night. It was dark then.
1 Q. And can you explain what you saw to us just so that the
2 Trial Chamber has an understanding of what this would have looked like to
4 A. I saw the lamps, hand-held lamps, from a distance of 50 metres.
5 Q. And you described them sending signals to each other. Can you
6 explain how they were sending those signals? I know it may be a basic
7 question, but if you can just explain what it looked like.
8 A. How shall I explain that? Short signals with the light of the
10 Q. And you were just making a gesture there, sir, I can note for the
11 record that appeared to be moving your thumb up and down. Am I
12 understanding that correctly? Is that showing turning -- turning the
13 lights on and off? Is that what you're trying to say?
14 A. Yes, exactly. We call it hand-held lamps. It's a torch.
15 Q. Thank you, sir. The next line of that statement is talking about
16 burnings, and it states:
17 "Some of the men who did the burnings had painted faces,
18 blackened ..."
19 It goes on to say:
20 "The men that I saw do this burning" are "... men that I know and
22 Following that there is a long list of men who are identified and
23 described Pitulic Novak, Milos Scepanovic, et cetera. Just so that we're
24 clear, I know you testified in the Milutinovic case that despite what it
25 says in the statement you yourself didn't personally see those men do the
1 burning and killing; is that correct?
2 A. No, I didn't see them myself.
3 Q. You have said that you believed those men were responsible. Are
4 you able to tell us why you say that, why you reached that conclusion?
5 A. That day when we left for Albania, they gathered there in the
6 neighbourhood. They were sort of analysing everything, all of us were,
7 and from then we didn't see them anymore.
8 Q. Am I understanding right, sir, that it's a conclusion that you
9 reached based on what you'd seen, the behaviour you'd seen prior to the
10 actual burnings?
11 A. Yes, after it happened.
12 Q. Sorry, after what happened?
13 A. After the burning and the killings took place, all the people of
14 the neighbourhood gathered as we set off for Albania and we analysed the
15 situation and we reached the conclusion that only them could have done
16 that, as only the Serb houses were left intact.
17 Q. I see, sir. So I think that's clear then. So it's a conclusion
18 you reach afterwards, speaking with other villagers; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you. You also described in your statement what I would
21 characterise as observations of the aftermath of what had -- what you saw
22 after the burnings had taken place. You say, this is at the bottom of
23 page 5:
24 "Later at about 6.30 a.m. I and a few other men went into our
25 neighbourhood to examine the destruction. I saw that all our houses, the
1 properties described above, destroyed and burnt to the ground -- were
2 destroyed and burnt to the ground."
3 Are you able to describe to the Trial Chamber what you
4 actually -- what you saw, how it looked when you came out and observed
5 your neighbourhood?
6 A. We saw a total destruction of houses and of the walls around the
7 houses. Everything had been burnt to the ground.
8 Q. And can you give us an idea of the scale or the size of the
9 destruction of -- the number of houses or how much of the neighbourhood
10 had been affected?
11 A. In the neighbourhood it was the row of the houses where my house
12 is, about 10 to 12 houses all together only in the row where my house is.
13 That would be the approximate number, 12 to 13 houses.
14 Q. Thank you, sir. Moving to a bit of a different area, at page 6
15 and paragraph 3 of your statement, you describe gathering with your
16 family and about 500 people in total in an elevated neighbourhood. You
17 describe moving from there through the city towards the border. And you
18 described police separating people at that point, separating people with
19 vehicles from pedestrians. Is that something you observed, the police
20 doing that?
21 A. It was a huge number of people, about 1.500 from my
22 neighbourhood. We were directed to go on foot, and the others who were
23 in vehicles were directed in another direction. So it was not only me
24 who saw that. Everybody saw that.
25 Q. I understand. And just so we're very clear, what you're
1 describing here, these are things that you personally saw; is that
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you. And I know you described police directing people
5 towards Prizren and the border at Morina, and you described them
6 directing pedestrians, including you and your family towards Qafe Prush.
7 One of the things you explain in your statement is that one of the police
8 directing the civilians was the person named Zika. Can you explain to us
9 how you knew Zika?
10 A. I used to know him because he lived in my neighbourhood
11 500 metres away from my house. The neighbourhood where I lived was --
12 had many Serbs living there too.
13 Q. And how did you know that he was a police officer?
14 A. Well, Gjakova is a small town.
15 Q. So, is this something you knew from seeing him or from speaking
16 to people; are you able to explain that to us?
17 A. This is something I knew myself. I've seen him dressed as a
18 policeman, and as I said he lived in my neighbourhood 500 metres away
19 from my house.
20 Q. Thank you very much, sir.
21 You described going to the border. Can you tell us how it was
22 that you got there? Did you walk the whole way?
23 A. We followed the following route Brkoc-Vokov-Zup on foot. We had
24 some disabled people with us in wheelchairs from our neighbourhood. So
25 we helped them move along with us. So all of us walked together.
1 Q. Can you explain how long it took? Do you know how long it took
2 you to get from there to the border from the time you left until the time
3 you arrived at the border?
4 A. I wouldn't know exactly how long it took us to get there, but I
5 would estimate about five or six hours, maximum seven.
6 Q. And can you describe what the conditions were like as all of you
7 walked to the border?
8 A. We all had to walk, elder, children, disabled persons. You can
9 imagine what the conditions were. They were disastrous.
10 Q. And can you give us a sense of the number of people who were
11 walking this same route with you along the way?
12 A. When we reached the centre of the town there were about 1.000 or
13 2.000 people then. When we continued towards the border -- and at the
14 border itself the number of people grew. I would say we were about 7.000
15 or 8.000 all together.
16 Q. Sir, you described that at the border the police asked everyone
17 for documents. This is at page 6, paragraph 3. You described that you
18 handed over your identity card, that you hid your passport. Did you see
19 what they did with your identity card when you gave it to them?
20 A. No. We only threw them in a box that was there, and crossed the
21 border. We didn't have any problems at that stage.
22 Q. So you're describing throwing them in a box. Is that something
23 they asked you to do? Did you throw them? Did they throw them? Did
24 they ask you to do that? Can you explain that for us.
25 A. There were two of them in uniform. I didn't recognise them. I
1 didn't know them. They only instructed us to throw the documents in the
2 box and that's what we did.
3 Q. And did you -- did you get a sense or were you able to see how
4 many other ID cards were in there, just in terms of a large number, small
6 A. Not a very large number when I crossed into Albania -- because I
7 was amongst the first ones that crossed into Albania that day.
8 Q. And were they asking everyone to do that, sir, put their
9 identities in there?
10 A. We were a large crowd when we were told to throw away the
11 documents into this box. They didn't search us, body search us, they
12 just told us to throw the documents into this box and that's what we did.
13 Q. Thank you, sir. Thank you very much for your patience. Those
14 are my questions for you, and my learned friend from the Defence will
15 have some questions for you now.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Behar.
17 It is now time for questions by Mr. Djurdjic.
18 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
19 Cross-examination by Mr. Djurdjic:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. My name is
21 Veljko Djurdjic. I'm a member of the Defence team of the accused,
22 Vlastimir Djordjevic. With me is Madam Marie O'Leary, another member of
23 my team. I have several questions for you to clarify certain points
24 concerning your statements that you've given so far. I hope I won't be
25 repeating some of the questions that have been put to you already. I
1 would like just to go deeper into matters and to clarify certain things.
2 Witness, what I'm interested in is in March 1999, with whom did
3 you live?
4 A. With my family. Sorry?
5 Q. Can you hear me?
6 A. Yes. Can you please repeat your question.
7 Q. Could you please tell us which members of the family you lived
8 with in March 1999 and at the time of the events that you are testifying
9 about here.
10 A. With my immediate family.
11 Q. Could you please tell us who were the members of your family in
12 1999 who were with you?
13 A. My wife, my children, my mother, my sister, my brother-in-law.
14 Q. Thank you. And of those members of your immediate family, who
15 was absent at the time, in March 1999, and lived with you otherwise?
23 MR. BEHAR: Sorry, Your Honours, I think we may need to redact
25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
1 Carry on, Mr. Djurdjic.
2 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
4 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, should we go into
5 private or closed session or should we redact this afterwards? I don't
6 know which method you are going to use.
7 JUDGE PARKER: We are in the process of redaction now. I thought
8 you had been spoken once and you wouldn't be repeating it. We can redact
9 twice, but if you're going to ask many more questions like that, we would
10 be better in private session. But I think we can carry on as we are.
11 The next point to bear in mind, Mr. Djurdjic, is there is quite a
12 delay between you speaking and the witness hearing the interpretation in
13 Pristina. So you will have to wait with patience to get a reply.
14 Would you like now to get an answer to your question?
15 You were asked, sir, whether you lived at a house number in 1999,
16 in March. Do you remember the question?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember.
18 JUDGE PARKER: The number is important, is it, Mr. Djurdjic?
19 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Well, the witness does not
20 remember. Let's go forward. I wanted to ask him some -- about layout,
21 certain questions, but let's go on.
22 JUDGE PARKER: He didn't remember your question.
23 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Witness, did you give your house number when you gave your
25 statement on the 23rd of April in Tirana?
1 A. Yes, I did give the house number.
2 Q. Thank you. Can we please see Exhibit P823, page 35, please.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note that the witness said: The
4 number of his house has changed since then but due to overlapping the
5 answer didn't enter into the transcript.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
7 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Q. Witness, what I'm going to ask you refers to 1999. If I'm going
9 to change the period I'm going to indicate. I know that your name has
10 been probably renamed.
11 Witness, this is a map of Djakovica furnished by the Prosecution.
12 Could you please draw us ...
13 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, I'm sorry for the
14 interruption. Would it be possible for counsel to give the ERN number
15 because our page 35 is not a map of Djakovica.
16 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, K036-6676. That is supposed
17 to be a map of Djakovica.
18 And this is a map of Leposavic. Page 35 -- just a second,
19 Madam O'Leary is going to inform me.
20 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, I believe the ERN
21 reference was sufficient. I believe we have it. It's hard copy page
22 number 24.
23 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. You're
24 correct. That is the map I'm after.
25 Could we zoom in, please. What does the witness see, the hard
1 copy, or what we see on the screen?
2 Q. Well, anyway, Witness --
3 JUDGE PARKER: The hard copy.
4 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Witness, could you please draw on this map the neighbourhood that
6 your street was in.
7 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Or maybe we should zoom out
8 because we won't be able to see what the witness is drawing since he has
9 a hard copy. Let's deal with the hard copy here as well.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Could the witness please draw a circle around the
11 neighbourhood in which he was living.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't find out where it was
13 because I see that here there is the entire neighbourhood. I see all the
14 other neighbourhoods but not my neighbourhood.
15 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. But, Witness, can we then approach it in a different way and then
17 we might get there more easily. Can you tell me where the old centre of
18 Djakovica was situated, where is the old town?
19 A. The old centre is in the centre of the town on the road that
20 takes you to Brkoc.
21 Q. Well, let me try to help you because I'm not that familiar with
22 Djakovica, but under number 32, if you have a look you'll see that it
23 says that that's the bus station. So can you orient yourself if you can
24 find number 32 and where it says the bus station under this number, 32.
25 A. It says the neighbourhood of Qyli. I don't see the bus stop
1 written here.
2 Q. On the map, on the right side, you can see the key with all
3 numbers and number 32 says bus station, it should be the bus station, and
4 I thought of this that it might help you orient yourself. Can you see
5 the number 32? You can see Lagjja e Qylit, if you can see the Qylit
6 mosque, under the mosque there is the number 32. Or if that is easier,
7 under number 1 we have the UNMIK building. I think that this was after
8 June 1999. That's under number 1.
9 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] If you can lower it a bit, please,
10 so that we can see number 1. More please. There. Now it is.
11 Q. If you can see the mosque, that's the Sefes mosque, can you see
12 where it is, left from it is number 1. That's where the UNMIK building
13 should be located. Can you recognise this part of Djakovica now?
14 A. I know where the mosque is in the Sefes neighbourhood.
15 Q. And can you see here number 3 written in Roman numerals, then to
16 the left of it is number 1 and then we see the red road, that's the main
17 road leading through Djakovica, and if it leads from Prizren towards
18 Decani and Pec. Can you see this red road? That's the main road leading
19 through Djakovica.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you see where the Pastrik Hotel is? Can you tell us that?
22 Or any other spot that you can use to orient yourself, either the
23 Pastrik Hotel or the place where the other mosque is or where the old
24 barracks in Djakovica are, or if you can tell me where this village or
25 settlement that is on an elevated spot is located or any other landmark
1 that you might find so that you could tell us about the other locations
3 A. I know where Hotel Pashtrik is, it is situated in the centre of
4 the town.
5 Q. Well -- and could you please mark the centre of the Djakovica
6 town on this map so that I could see where the centre is. You should be
7 able to recognise it and to say this is where the centre of the town is,
8 and then we'll see where other neighbourhoods are. Let me help you. On
9 the right side you'll see that it says Orahovac is located 17 kilometres
10 away --
11 JUDGE PARKER: The witness is already drawing. I don't think you
12 need to help him mark the centre of the town.
13 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honours -- but we
14 don't know what the witness is drawing. We cannot --
15 JUDGE PARKER: Exactly. The Court Officer --
16 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, sorry for the
17 interruption. If I could intervene for one moment. First of all, I
18 think counsel should be advised that the hard copy we have here in
19 Pristina is a black-and-white copy. Counsel had referred to the red road
20 going through the centre. Since we have a black-and-white copy,
21 obviously we're not going to see the colour. The second thing is the
22 witness hasn't made any markings yet.
23 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I want to thank the usher. I also
24 have a black-and-white copy. I got on my screen a copy in colour. So
25 the road is black, but then on the right side you will see where it says
1 Orahovac 17 kilometres away. And in the upper left-hand corner it says
2 Decani 17 and a half kilometres. So this should be a landmark for the
3 main road, if you can see it. On the right-hand side it says "Orahovac"
4 and then in the upper part on the left "Decani."
5 Q. Can you find your way around?
6 JUDGE PARKER: I think the answer is --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What do you want me to find?
8 JUDGE PARKER: You said earlier you know where the Hotel Pastrik
9 is. Are you able to see on the map the position of that hotel, the
10 Hotel Pastrik?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't -- when I said I know
12 where it is; I didn't mean where it is in the map because, to tell you
13 the truth, I can't find my way around in this map. I don't understand
15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
16 Mr. Djurdjic, that is the impression we are forming here, that
17 the witness is not a person who reads maps. Many people are like that,
18 of course. So you may have to adjust your cross-examination in some
19 other way.
20 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Let me
21 try to do this verbally.
22 Q. Am I right that the road leading from Orahovac towards Decani is
23 the main road that leads through Djakovica?
24 A. From Rahovec it goes to Decan you mean? You come from Rahovec,
25 you enter Gjakove, and then you go towards Decan.
1 Q. Yes, thank you. And now please tell me, from this road, where in
2 relation to that road is the neighbourhood where you lived situated?
3 A. It is in quite an opposite direction where I lived.
4 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell us which is this opposite
6 JUDGE PARKER: Perhaps I could help. If you were coming from
7 Rahovec and going towards Decani, on that road, where you lived, is that
8 on the right side or on the left side?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are asking me about where I
11 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you come from Rahovec, it is on
13 the right-hand side. This is how I can explain it.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. And do you go through the centre of
15 the town before you turn to the right to your house or is your house on
16 the right before you reach the centre of the town?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the same both ways, either if
18 you come from the road or the other way.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Are you able to tell us how far from that road is
20 your house, is it half a kilometre? One kilometre? Or what?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One kilometre and a half or two.
22 I'm not accurate but around about that.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
24 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. And as we can see on this map there is also a third road, that's
1 the road leading to Klina. So would you pass by this junction, the
2 crossroads, where you can go in the direction of Klina before you reach
3 your neighbourhood or was your neighbourhood located before you reach
4 that junction?
5 A. No, it is at the crossroads where the roads divide, separate.
6 Q. Mr. Witness, in the centre of the town there is a place where the
7 road for Klina leads to the right and straight, the road leading to
8 Decani, continues. So there's this forking in the centre of the town.
9 I'm asking you whether your neighbourhood was ahead of this crossroads,
10 before you reach it, or after you pass it.
11 A. After you cross the -- pass this crossroad.
12 Q. Thank you. And please tell me what important building is located
13 at the crossroads of the main road and the road that you would take to
14 move in the direction of Klina, to the right, what are the buildings
15 located there? Because I can see that this is the very centre of
16 Djakovica town.
17 A. Hotel Pashtrik used to be there on the right side and the palace
18 of culture. Then you continue straight to Kline.
19 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me, this place where the palace of
20 culture and the Pastrik Hotel are situated, is that the centre of the old
21 Djakovica town?
22 A. That is the only centre we have. You may call it old or new, but
23 that's it.
24 Q. Thank you. You said that your neighbourhood is about a kilometre
25 or a kilometre and a half to the right from the road, and how long do you
1 have to travel from the Pastrik Hotel in order to turn right?
2 A. From Hotel Pashtrik? You mean the road to Decan?
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. In order to take -- to turn right, you have to take the first
5 turn right on this road.
6 Q. Thank you. The question was: How far from the centre of the
7 town does one need to turn right? Is it immediately after the centre, or
8 after 500 metres, or a kilometre, or a kilometre and a half, or 2
10 A. From Hotel Pashtrik you travel -- but you are asking me about two
11 different roads. There are two roads, the one that goes to Decan and the
12 one that goes to Kline. So I don't know what you mean.
13 Q. Mr. Witness, the crossroads was our landmark, the road
14 Klina-Decani. You said that one needed to turn right when moving from
15 Orahovac towards Decani, that your neighbourhood was on the right-hand
16 side. And you also told us that it was after the crossroads with the
17 road leading to Klina. So I'm asking you, from this crossroads if you
18 move on towards Decani, how long would you have to travel straight after
19 this crossroads before you turn right to reach your neighbourhood?
20 A. If you are on the straight road from the hotel, from
21 Hotel Pashtrik, there are the cross lights, the stop lights. You go to
22 Decan in this way. Then you turn right. I would say it's about 1.000
24 Q. Thank you. And tell me, is the bus station near your
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you. How far from the bus station was your house located?
3 A. About 300 metres.
4 Q. Thank you. And tell me, is the green market also somewhere in
5 the vicinity of where your house used to be?
6 A. Can you repeat the question, please?
7 Q. The question is: The green market, how far from your house is
8 it? Is the green market situated in the same neighbourhood and
9 relatively close to your house?
10 A. About 250 metres I would say. It's an approximation. It's not
11 an accurate figure.
12 Q. Thank you. Yes, we are talking approximately. But please tell
13 me also, the old barracks in relation to the landmarks that we have
14 mentioned, where is the old barracks located?
15 A. The old barracks were located about one kilometre and a half from
16 where my house was.
17 Q. Thank you. And can you tell us in which direction, please.
18 A. In the direction of the centre of the town, where today the road
19 to Prishtina is.
20 Q. Thank you. Please tell me whether the Hadumit mosque and the
21 library -- where are they located in relation to your house?
22 A. The Hadum mosque is very far from where I live.
23 Q. Thank you. And could you tell us, this elevated neighbourhood or
24 the neighbourhood under construction that you mention in your statement,
25 where was that located?
1 A. Can you repeat the question, please, because it's not clear to
3 Q. In your statement, in several -- actually, in two places, you
4 mentioned a neighbourhood that was under construction where you spent
5 this evening, the night between the 2nd of April -- the 2nd of April in
6 the morning, it was an elevated neighbourhood where you were. So what I
7 would like to hear is if you could tell us where this neighbourhood was
8 located in relation to your house or the bus station, if you could tell
9 us where that neighbourhood is.
10 A. I'm not clear about this question. I don't think I have said
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I think that it might be the right
14 time for the break.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Very well, Mr. Djurdjic.
16 We will now have a break which will enable the witness to have a
17 drink and a rest, and we resume at 11.00. And Mr. Djurdjic will then
18 continue with some questions.
19 We adjourn now.
20 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning again, sir.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic will continue now with his questions.
25 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Witness, if you could take your statement of April 1999 and turn
2 to page 5, please, and that would be page 5 in the English version as
3 well. Under item 18 in that paragraph. It says here:
4 "The burning lasted in the neighbourhood until 4.00 a.m.
5 could see it from a high point in the town in a neighbourhood that was
6 being constructed."
7 Have you found that passage in your statement, sir?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Here you say that you were observing all that from a high point
10 in a neighbourhood that was being constructed, and on page 6, please turn
11 the page, in the paragraph which starts with "My family ..." you again
12 say "this elevated neighbourhood where we hid the previous night."
13 So what my question was: Where was this elevated neighbourhood
14 located with reference to the bus station or your neighbourhood or the
15 neighbourhood where your house stood?
16 A. From my neighbourhood it is about 50 or 60 metres away, whereas
17 from the bus station about 300 to 350 metres away.
18 Q. Thank you. Would that be a hill above your neighbourhood?
19 A. No. It is a plain about 50 or 60 metres away from my house.
20 Q. Thank you. Would that place be behind your house or your
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you, from the wall of your yard you
24 reached the wall of your yard across that meadow, what is the distance
25 from that point to the street, how far the street is from that point?
1 A. Which street?
2 Q. To the main road, from that wall of your yard or compound, what
3 is the distance from that point to the sidewalk of the main road?
4 A. There are two main roads, in front of the house and behind the
6 Q. Thank you. So if we go from that point towards your house, first
7 we reach the road behind your house, at the back of your house; am I
8 right in saying so?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And from the point where you were at that elevated neighbourhood
11 to your lot, there was a distance of 50 metres, as you said; is that
13 A. From my house to that house where we were sheltering and where we
14 spent that night, there are about 50 metres to 60 metres in between.
15 Q. Thank you. And what is the distance from your house to the main
17 A. Are you referring to the main road or to the house where we were
19 Q. I mean the main road. I don't want to name it. Your house was
20 in such and such street at such and such number. What was the distance
21 from your house where you used to live to the street whose number it
23 A. Fifteen metres I would say, 15 to 20 metres.
24 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell me, there was a yard around
25 your house; is that correct?
1 A. Yes, every house has a yard there.
2 Q. Could you please tell me whether there was a wall around your
4 A. Yes, in that neighbourhood every house has a walled-off yard.
5 Q. Thank you. Please tell me, what was the distance from the wall
6 of your yard to the neighbour's wall on your right-hand side when we're
7 looking towards the street?
8 A. The wall is between the two yards. As for the houses, the houses
9 were --
10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the number of
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- apart.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Could you please repeat that distance between the
14 two houses.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the exact distance,
16 but the houses stand at a distance of 2 metres away from the wall between
17 the two yards. So the total distance would be 5 to 6 metres maximum.
18 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Thank you. Would the same case be in the case of your left-hand
20 neighbour and all the other houses in that neighbourhood along that
22 A. Yes. The entire neighbourhood that was burned down, every house
23 shared a wall with the house next to it -- every yard, that is.
24 Q. Thank you. How tall were the yard walls, please?
25 A. How tall it was? I would say about 1.80 metres to 2 metres tall.
1 Q. Thank you. Witness, when you testified in the Milutinovic et al.
2 trial you said that you were 150 to 200 metres away, now you say
3 60, 70 metres tops.
4 A. I didn't measure the actual distance. I just gave an estimated
6 Q. Thank you. From the point you were, you could not see what was
7 going in the main street from the intervening walls and houses; am I
8 right in saying so?
9 A. No, you couldn't see.
10 Q. Thank you. Witness, sir, do you know where Vuk Karadzic Street
11 used to be in March 1999 in Djakovica?
12 A. I don't remember.
13 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell me what was your profession
14 in 1999?
15 A. I was a tradesman for all my life.
16 Q. Thank you. I read somewhere that you're a car mechanic?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you. Did you trade in car spare parts or any other trade
19 back in 1999?
20 A. I had a grocery shop, and we also sold tires.
21 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us where your shop was located?
22 A. I had a shop in my neighbourhood and another shop near the police
24 Q. Thank you. Were those shops open before your departure from
1 A. No, they were closed. We were staying at home.
2 Q. Thank you. When did you close those shops? When did you stop
3 trading in those shops?
4 A. About two to three weeks before the NATO air-strikes began.
5 Q. Thank you. Would you please tell me, until your departure from
6 Djakovica had there been any air-strikes or bombardments of Djakovica?
7 A. Yes, there were.
8 Q. Could you please tell us which part of Djakovica suffered bombing
9 if it's known to you or if you went to those sites to see for yourself.
10 A. I didn't go to those sites to see for myself, but they hit the
11 barracks and Cabrat Hill.
12 Q. Thank you. Please tell me, did you know Qamil Zherka?
13 A. Qamil who? Can you repeat his last name, please.
14 Q. Zherka.
15 A. No.
16 Q. And Sadik Nexhmedin Zherka?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Thank you. Do you know -- Izet Hina [phoen] perhaps?
19 A. He was a doctor. I never had any contact with him.
20 Q. Thank you. Is it known to you that on the 24th of March, from
21 2030 hours until 3.00 a.m.
22 Djakovica was -- suffered bombing and that those persons were killed and
23 that destruction was inflicted on both businesses and housing facilities
24 in the old town of Djakovica
25 A. Yes, I heard about that.
1 Q. Thank you. And what you heard about the Cabrat Hill and the old
2 barracks, that was on the 25th of March at 8.00 p.m. or 2000 hours; is
3 that correct?
4 A. I don't remember the exact time because a long time has passed
5 since. I don't remember the date.
6 Q. Thank you. Did you hear that on the 25th of March at 1955 in
7 front of the Pastrik Hotel a policeman Danilovic, Nenad was attacked and
8 severely wounded?
9 A. No, I didn't hear about that because we were staying inside all
10 the time.
11 Q. Please tell me, did you hear that the Tabak bridge and
12 Hadum mosque also bombed?
13 A. No, I didn't hear about that. I only know that people were
14 saying that Cabrat and the military barracks were bombed.
15 Q. Thank you. Witness, sir, did you know Nimon and Bajram?
16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Bajram Nimonaj.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
18 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Thank you. Did you know Shaban Brahimaj?
20 A. Where are these people from?
21 Q. From Djakovica. This is why I'm asking you about them.
22 A. No, I don't know him.
23 Q. Thank you. From the beginning of 1999 until your departure from
24 Djakovica, were you familiar with the activities of the KLA in Djakovica?
25 Did you hear anything about that?
1 A. Yes, there were rumours about that, but personally I didn't see
3 Q. Thank you. What did you hear?
4 A. I heard what you put to me, but personally I didn't see any of
5 this activity.
6 Q. Could you please tell us what activities you heard and did not
7 see for yourself. What did you hear about?
8 A. I heard that the KLA had taken to the mountains. That's all
9 basically I know about it.
10 Q. Thank you. Witness, sir, please tell me, did you do your
11 national conscription service?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you. When did you leave, and where, the army?
14 A. I completed my military service in 1983/1984.
15 Q. Thank you. What was your specialty and where, in which town did
16 you serve?
17 A. I was a driver and I did my military service in Capljina and
19 Q. Thank you. And when you returned home, were you a military
21 A. No. For a while we were but no longer than that.
22 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me what kind of a uniform you had as a
23 military reservist.
24 A. The green army uniform.
25 Q. Thank you. Did all the reservists have green uniforms, military
2 A. Those who were like me, reservists, they had the same uniforms.
3 Q. Thank you. As far as I can conclude, you are able to distinguish
4 between police and military uniforms; is that right?
5 A. Yes, I am.
6 Q. Thank you. In your statement -- let me just ask you this before
7 that. Since the beginning of the war, did you see people in uniforms
8 moving around Djakovica?
9 A. Yes, there were. There were police members and other uniforms.
10 The entire town of Gjakova
11 Q. Thank you. And you distinguish between active soldiers and
12 active-duty policemen and reserve military personnel and reserve
13 policemen; right?
14 A. Yes, I can.
15 Q. Thank you. Could you please have a look at your statement,
16 page 4, and from the top it's the fifth paragraph beginning with the
18 "Since the very first night of NATO bombing ..."
19 And then the third sentence in this paragraph:
20 "They were wearing bullet-proof vests and camouflage green
21 uniforms ..."
22 Is this part of your statement which you gave in April 1999
24 A. I don't remember what I gave then.
25 Q. Witness, sir, so as not to lose time, I have read this out to
1 you. So the sentence says:
2 "They were wearing bullet-proof vests and camouflage green
3 uniforms ..."
4 This is why the Prosecutor supplied you with the statement and
5 this has been recorded in the transcript as something that's the best --
6 to the best of your knowledge. So this is why I'm asking you.
7 A. Where are you citing from? Which place do you mean?
8 Q. Well, the usher gave you the statement. I saw that on the
9 screen. I told you that this is page 4, and if we count the paragraphs
10 from the top then it's the fifth paragraph. It begins with the words:
11 "Since the very first night of NATO bombing ..." et cetera.
12 So not that sentence, and not the next one, but the third one.
13 A. I don't remember that. I don't think I have seen that.
14 Q. Thank you. And will you please tell me, the people in uniforms
15 that you used to see, where did they work?
16 A. I'm talking about the period before the war. They were in our
17 neighbourhood. They were inhabitants of that neighbourhood for some
18 40, 50 years.
19 Q. Thank you. What I asked you was where did they work. Where were
20 they employed?
21 A. They used to work in auto mechanic shops where cars are repaired.
22 Q. Thank you. And now I would ask you to have a look at your
23 statement which you were provided with and have a look at page 6 of this
24 statement. And in the Albanian version it's page 5. And in the English
25 version it's page 6. The paragraph beginning with the words:
1 "I saw that my car had not been burned ..."
2 Have you found this paragraph? It's the penultimate paragraph on
3 that page, the page in Albanian. And in the last sentence in this
4 paragraph you say:
5 "He was also in the same green camouflage uniform worn by the
6 Serbs described above."
7 Witness, sir, is what I have just read out to you and what I hope
8 you found in your statement, is this correct and is it true?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you. Witness, I think that they did not properly
11 understand you in the transcript and not all the places are correctly
12 mentioned. You said that you set out from Djakovica on foot in the
13 direction of the border crossing Cafa Prusit; am I right?
14 A. Yes Brekoc-Vogove-Zhub.
15 Q. Please just mention the place names slowly. The first place is
16 Brekovo; am I right?
17 A. Yes, at the bridge, the road that goes to Brekoc.
18 Q. Thank you. And then you passed through Vogovo and then through a
19 place called Zub?
20 A. Yes, that's correct.
21 Q. Thank you. Did you ever travel by car before this time from
22 Djakovica to Cafa Prusit?
23 A. No, never in my life had I travelled to that area, but I have
24 been -- I used to go to Brekoc.
25 Q. Thank you. And do you know what is the distance between
1 Djakovica and Cafa Prusit?
2 A. No, I don't know. Because as I said that was the only time I
3 travelled to Qafa e Prushit.
4 Q. Thank you. Witness, sir, do you remember who of your neighbours
5 was with you in the group that was going from Djakovica towards the
6 border on the 2nd of April?
7 A. All my neighbours, all the inhabitants of my neighbourhood went
8 together. Every single family of my neighbourhood was part of the group.
9 Q. I'm asking you about the neighbours you remember were with you in
10 the same group. Could you mention any of them by name?
11 A. There are many. Should I mention all of them by name?
12 Q. Well, who were the neighbours living closest to you that you can
13 remember? I would ask you if you can remember to tell us their names.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Private session.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will count all of them by names.
16 [Private session]
11 Page 7465 redacted. Private session.
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
23 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Q. Witness, sir, how did it happen that you went and gave a
25 statement to an investigator from the OTP in Tirana in April 1999?
1 A. I don't remember, but when we crossed the border there were many
2 cameramen from various countries and they took us to some camps there.
3 Q. Thank you. And do you remember where it was that you gave your
4 statement in April 1999?
5 A. It was in Tirana, but I can't specify the particular place
6 because it was the first and last time I was in Tirana so I don't
7 remember the exact location where I gave that.
8 Q. Thank you. And how did you get to this place? Who took you
9 there? Please don't mention the names if it might be someone from your
11 A. I don't remember. I don't remember, really. It's such a long
12 time ago. And as you might imagine, we were not in a very good
13 condition. We suffered our traumas.
14 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell me, who was present during this
15 interview that you had with the investigator?
16 A. Present were people from the West. I don't know who they were,
17 but they were from the West.
18 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you first: How many persons were present
19 while you were giving your statement?
20 A. I don't remember. I don't remember.
21 Q. Thank you. And do you remember what was the sex of the person or
22 persons who were present, as you don't remember their number?
23 A. There were females and males. There were many people there. But
24 I can't tell you exactly who they were and where that took place because,
25 as I said, I was never before in Tirana so I don't remember it.
1 Q. Thank you. So we are through with this. You don't know who took
2 you to the place where you gave your statement, but now we got to this
3 place where you gave the statement. So you were giving the statement.
4 My first question was if you knew how many persons were present while you
5 were giving the statement, and now it's not really clear to me because
6 you mention a number of people. Was there a number of people present in
7 the room while you were giving your statement?
8 A. The place resembled an embassy or something like that. There
9 were many employees there who would enter and leave the building.
10 Q. Witness, sir, I would like to ask you to focus and listen very
11 carefully to my questions so that you can provide an answer, so that we
12 use this time efficiently. I'm not asking you about how many people were
13 in the building. But in the room where you were giving your statement
14 were there many more people giving their statements or just you giving
15 your statement in that room?
16 A. Maybe three or four persons. I don't remember.
17 Q. Thank you. Those three persons giving statements, were they also
18 from your neighbourhood, from your part of the town?
19 A. No. One of them spoke English, the other knew Italian, and the
20 third I don't know which language he spoke. They were not from my town
21 or from my neighbourhood.
22 Q. Thank you. You mentioned, as far as I can conclude, the persons
23 you mentioned just now are the people who spoke to you.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you. Which languages do you speak?
1 A. Do you mean me?
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. I speak my mother tongue.
4 Q. Thank you. How did you communicate with those persons who were
5 in that room?
6 A. There was an interpreter as well who spoke Albanian.
7 Q. Thank you. Tell me, were you shown statements of other people or
8 any documents while you were talking to those people in that room?
9 A. Who do you mean?
10 Q. I mean the people who talked to you, did they read statements
11 given by other people or did they show you or read out from documents?
12 Did they have to refresh your memory? That's what I'm asking you about.
13 A. No. Those who gave statements before me, they gave the
14 statements individually, in separate rooms.
15 Q. Witness, sir, you gave your statement on the 23rd of April, 1999
16 Before starting giving your statement, did you speak to anybody who
17 provided their statement before you did?
18 A. I don't remember, really. A long time has passed since then. I
19 did meet people from my neighbourhood while in Tirana. We did discuss
20 what happened to us. But long time has passed since, and I don't
22 Q. Thank you. Do you remember how many days it took you to give
23 your statement?
24 A. I don't remember, but I think it was short. It didn't last long.
25 Q. Thank you. Was this a verbal conversation?
1 A. Yes, it was a verbal conversation.
2 Q. Thank you. Was a written statement produced on that occasion
3 while you were giving your statement?
4 A. I don't remember. Honestly, I don't remember.
5 Q. Did you sign a statement in writing?
6 A. I wouldn't know. I really don't remember right now. There were
7 ups and downs. We were traumatised, so I really don't remember right
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask the usher to show the
11 B/C/S version of the written statement to the witness, please -- I
12 apologise, not the B/C/S but the English version.
13 Q. Witness, sir, you've seen the witness statement shown to you by
14 the usher. Does your signature appear to be on any part of that
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did this refresh your memory?
18 A. Yes, yes, it is my signature.
19 Q. Do you remember when the signing of this statement took place,
20 and do you know what you signed?
21 A. I don't remember. This is my signature, but I don't remember
22 when I signed this statement. A long time has passed since.
23 Q. Thank you. But do you remember where you were while you were
24 signing this statement?
25 A. As I said, I was in Tirana.
1 Q. Yes, we know that you were in Tirana, but which location in
2 Tirana was this statement produced while you signed it?
3 A. As I said, that was the first time I ever visited Tirana, and I'm
4 not familiar with the town itself.
5 Q. Thank you. Was this in the same building in which you gave your
6 statement or at some other place?
7 A. I think it was in the same building in which we had a
8 conversation, but I really don't remember.
9 Q. Thank you. Please tell me, do you understand this statement
10 which you signed? Can you read it? Do you understand anything?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. Witness, sir, please turn to page 2 which bears the signature.
13 My question is: Can you read this, can you understand what you're
14 reading, and the contents of the witness statement, I mean the signed
15 witness statement before you? Do you understand me? Can you read and
16 understand what is written on page 2 of the statement that you signed?
17 This is my question.
18 A. The statement which is signed is in English and I don't
19 understand English. I understand the beginning. On the 1st of April
20 in 1999, I understand this part in English.
21 Q. And further, do you understand any other parts of the statement
22 which do not contain time references, dates, numbers?
23 A. Where?
24 Q. Witness, sir, please continue reading the witness statement
25 beyond the first five words. And do you understand what is written here
1 in English?
2 A. [Previous translation continues]... English. It's in English. I
3 don't read English. If you want me to clarify something, ask me and I
4 will do that.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Behar.
6 MR. BEHAR: Yes, Your Honours. I'm not sure exactly where this
7 is leading, but it seems apparent that the witness has the English copy
8 of the statement in front of him. He's made it quite clear that he
9 doesn't understand the English. If it assists my friend, I can also
10 indicate that at the final page of the English statement is an
11 interpreter certification which indicates that the statement was
12 translated into Albanian at the time it was written, and that is signed.
13 And again, I'm not sure where it's going, but it seems clear that the
14 witness is confused at this point.
15 JUDGE PARKER: I didn't detect the witness being confused at all.
16 He may not understand why he's being asked these things. I don't
17 understand, but I don't see confusion. The witness has made very clear
18 he doesn't read English. He may recognise a few words. That's all.
19 Now, is there some other point you want to make?
20 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] My learned friend has just
21 intervened and explained to the witness the situation. We've concluded
22 that he doesn't speak English, and he could have said that ten minutes
23 ago, but I'm going to reiterate and ask again --
24 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sorry, Mr. Djurdjic, we've listened patiently
25 while you've gone meticulously through this. The witness has made very
1 clear his position about this. You would understand his position. He is
2 Albanian; he speaks Albanian. As with almost every statement we've seen
3 in this trial, it is prepared in English, one of the languages of the
4 Tribunal. It was the product of an interview conducted in English
5 through an interpreter. Now, is there something different about this
6 statement that you are pursuing? If not, why are we wasting time?
7 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is the case
8 exactly. I don't want to provide comments. This is not the time for
10 Q. Witness, if you do not understand English, did you know what you
11 were signing while you were signing this witness statement?
12 A. We read it in Albanian. It was translated to me from English.
13 Q. Thank you. Now, please explain to me if this was so as you
14 described it just now, how is it possible that in that witness statement
15 that you were shown on several occasions that you stated that the
16 contents in that witness statement was never added by you or that they do
17 not correspond to what you know?
18 A. I'm speaking the truth. I'm not speaking any lies here.
19 Q. Witness, I'm absolutely certain that you are telling us the
20 truth, but what I'm asking you now concern the facts surrounding your
21 giving the statement and that statement being taken, because in more than
22 90 per cent of cases you denied what you signed here. And this is why
23 I'm asking you about the process of this witness statement being taken
24 and not what you testified today and at the previous trial. Could you
25 explain that a bit for us, please.
1 MR. BEHAR: I apologise again for the interruption, Your Honour.
2 It may be an obvious point, but I don't think certainly it's a fair
3 characterisation that the witness has denied 90 per cent of what he's
4 signed there. I don't know if my friend wants to be more specific. I
5 certainly understand what he's getting at. I don't object to the general
6 tenor of the question.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
8 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I withdraw the percentages.
9 Q. Just those portions that you withdraw or that those things do not
10 correspond to what you know, could you please explain how this transpired
11 or came to be?
12 A. I spoke the truth. I mentioned things that really happened and
13 did not mention things that did not happen.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] There are a couple of minutes
16 before the break. I would ask you to break early so that I can finish my
17 cross-examination after the break and leave ample time for my learned
18 friend for his re-direct.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
20 Mr. Behar, could we ask if it's possible for some indication of
21 the time you would need for re-examination.
22 MR. BEHAR: I can indicate at this stage I don't anticipate
23 needing much time at all, of course subject to anything that happens
24 after the break. As things stand, I would need very little time.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that.
1 We will have our second break now, resume at five minutes to
2 1.00, and you should finish by 1.30. Thank you.
3 --- Recess taken at 12.25 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 12.56 p.m.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. We will continue now to finish
6 the questioning.
7 Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.
8 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. Witness, sir, can you hear me?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Please tell me, were you asked or -- or did somebody ask about
12 you or did somebody try to reach you from the moment the bombing started
13 until the time you left Djakovica?
14 A. Where do you mean?
15 Q. While you were in Djakovica, did anybody come to your house? Did
16 anybody inquire about you among your relatives, et cetera?
17 A. No, we were staying there with our neighbours in the place we
18 were staying, and we didn't go out. Only our women sometimes went to buy
20 Q. Thank you. Tell me, when there were power outages that would
21 concern the whole neighbourhood; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you. Would there be a blackout or a power outage in the
24 whole of the town of Djakovica
25 A. I'm speaking about my neighbourhood where we were staying and
1 where we could see what was going on because I told you we didn't go out
2 of the hiding place.
3 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell me would electricity be cut off
4 during night-time when NATO aircraft were carrying out their raids?
5 A. I remember that there was no electricity even though, as I said
6 earlier, a long time has passed since then.
7 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell me whether you remember whether
8 anti-aircraft artillery used spotlights or search lights to illuminate
9 the skies?
10 A. We heard the noise, but I can't tell you what kind of artillery
11 it was.
12 Q. Thank you. Please tell me, since it was dark, did you carry
13 torches or hand-held lamps with you to use them for lighting your way?
14 A. We had candles.
15 Q. Thank you. What would you do when bombing started?
16 A. When the bombing started, we stayed in the basement of my
17 neighbours, all of us stood there in the basement.
18 Q. Thank you, Witness. I have no further questions for you.
19 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, I have
20 concluded thus my cross-examination.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Djurdjic.
22 Mr. Behar.
23 MR. BEHAR: I have nothing arising, Your Honours. Thank you.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 Questioned by the Court:
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Witness, I have two questions for you. This
2 morning you told us during the night when the NATO bombing started that
3 you saw people with flash-lights, with hand-held lamps in the street, and
4 then you said these persons belonged to the two Serb houses. How did you
5 know that?
6 A. I didn't speak about a particular night. I spoke about an
7 earlier time when I drove home late at night I could see these lights.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Does it mean that you --
9 A. -- in these two houses.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And if these people belonged to Serb houses you
11 know or don't you know?
12 A. There was light in these two houses.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And that was your assumption, that they must come
14 from that -- these houses?
15 A. Yes, yes. I didn't see the actual persons.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. My other question is related to the
17 situation at the border to Albania
18 two -- that you explained that there were uniformed people and then you
20 "There were two of them in uniform. I didn't recognise them. I
21 didn't know them."
22 Those people who asked you to put your IDs and the documents into
23 a box. What kind of uniform did they wear?
24 A. They were wearing uniforms. I think, I'm not a hundred per cent
25 sure, that they were green-colour uniform --
1 THE INTERPRETER: Correction, correction: Blue uniform.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Was it plain blue or camouflage blue, light blue,
3 or dark blue? Do you recall that?
4 A. I believe it was light blue. I'm not very sure because there
5 were other sorts of uniforms there, so I can't say for sure but I think
6 the colour was blue.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Sir, I am pleased to be able to tell you that that
9 completes the questioning for you. The Chamber would like to thank you
10 for making yourself available in Pristina and for the evidence that
11 you've been able to give us. We have your earlier statement and the
12 evidence you gave in the previous trial as well as what you have said
13 today. So we thank you. You may now, of course, now return to your
14 normal activities and the Court Officer will give you those final
15 directions. So thank you for your assistance.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thanks to all of you.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Very well.
18 We then conclude the videolink and we thank those in Pristina who
19 have assisted us.
20 [The witness withdrew via videolink]
21 JUDGE PARKER: Could I mention two matters that can be dealt with
22 at this moment. There were some documents that were tendered by counsel
23 for the Defence during the testimony of Witness K86 in May. They were
24 marked for identification pending completion of English translations.
25 Those translations have now been provided. The Court would direct that
1 they be included in the exhibit that was marked for identification and
2 that the -- in each case the documents should now become an exhibit.
3 Mr. Behar, at the commencement of the videolinks on Monday, you
4 sought to raise a matter. We had to defer final completion of it because
5 of the video connection and the -- we didn't want to waste time. And at
6 that moment, I didn't quite grasp what you were putting forward. I now
7 see that what you were advancing was -- concerned the motion of the
8 Prosecution for amendment to the Rule 65 ter list, and the decision of
9 the Chamber of the 2nd of July when we pointed out that there were no
10 English translations of a number of the documents that it was proposed to
11 add to the 65 ter list. We therefore did not reach a decision about
12 those documents at that time. We are now told by you that the English
13 translations have been completed and they've been included in e-court.
14 If I correctly understand the position, the Chamber will now
15 deliver its decision in the near future in respect of that motion so far
16 as it is outstanding in respect of those particular documents.
17 Could I mention that tomorrow we sit in the morning. During the
18 second break, which is normally for half an hour commencing at 12.30,
19 because I must speak to some other Judges and lawyers that are visiting
20 it will be necessary first to have the break a little earlier, at ten
21 past 12.00; and secondly, that it will last a little longer and we will
22 resume at ten minutes to 1.00. So a 40-minute break commencing at ten
23 minutes past midday
24 Could I go on to mention again, in case it is overlooked, that we
25 have indicated that the Chamber will not sit on Thursday or Friday of
1 next week. We will, however, resume on the Monday following the
2 vacation. I think that is enough of the public notices for the day.
3 Is there any other matter that needs to be raised? If not, we
4 adjourn now to resume tomorrow. There may be a matter.
5 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
6 JUDGE PARKER: We are just told, Ms. Kravetz, that you may have a
7 witness here ready and waiting.
8 MS. KRAVETZ: Yes, Your Honour, the next witness, Mr. Riedlmayer,
9 is actually here. But I leave it up to Your Honours if you prefer to
10 start with his evidence tomorrow.
11 There was also a short procedural matter I wanted to deal with,
12 it was an oral application to add an exhibit to the exhibit list. And,
13 again, I am happy to deal with that first thing tomorrow morning or now
14 if required.
15 JUDGE PARKER: My apologies to you and the witness. I had
16 understood that the witness would not be available until tomorrow.
17 We will commence him now, but you need to make your motion first?
18 MS. KRAVETZ: I do, Your Honour. It's -- I just wanted to make
19 an oral application to add an exhibit to our 65 ter exhibit list. This
20 is 65 ter 05341. It's a set of four photographs of the Cirez mosque, and
21 these were provided to us by Mr. Riedlmayer on Monday when he came for
22 proofing. And he explained to us in proofing that he had only received
23 these photographs three days prior to travelling to The Hague for his
24 testimony. It is our position that these photographs are relevant and
25 they will assist Your Honours in determining matters that relate to
1 Mr. Riedlmayer's evidence. The Cirez mosque is one of the sites that is
2 listed in paragraph 77(d) of the indictment, which relates to cultural
3 destruction under the general heading of persecutions. So that is my
4 motion. This exhibit was disclosed to the Defence as soon as we got it,
5 and we've also provided the Defence with supplemental information
6 relating to the provenance of this paragraph which was given to us
7 yesterday by Mr. Riedlmayer.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
9 Mr. Djurdjic, is there any opposition?
10 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you have surprised
11 me. In the distribution of work within the Defence team, this witness,
12 Riedlmayer, is someone for whom Mr. Djordjevic should be responsible so I
13 am not really prepared for the beginning of his questioning. So I would
14 ask if we could delay this until tomorrow morning. And as for the
15 documents, I know that the OTP has disclosed some photographs and
16 information to us, but a question can be raised here - it's a basic one.
17 This expert witness was planned to testify before eight or ten months,
18 and we only received this two days ago. So I would ask you if
19 Mr. Djordjevic could provide the final answer of the Defence in this
21 JUDGE PARKER: Could I ask you if you can assist us,
22 Mr. Djurdjic. How long would you expect to be in cross-examining this
24 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I couldn't tell you anything
25 because according to our plan I'm in charge of other work. I only have
1 general information about what is going on with respect to this witness.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
3 Are you able to assist with the timing, Ms. Kravetz?
4 MS. KRAVETZ: We had -- I see Mr. Djordjevic is joining us. We
5 had anticipated that we would take approximately two hours in direct
6 examination with this witness. It may -- given the large number of
7 exhibits that are related to his testimony, I may take a bit more than
8 that, but I don't anticipate that it will be much longer. And I will try
9 to keep it to the --
10 JUDGE PARKER: And the additional photographs of the mosque, are
11 they going to be reached early in your examination or will they be later?
12 MS. KRAVETZ: They will be some time later, not at the beginning
13 of my examination.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
15 Perhaps if the witness could be brought in now.
16 We are delighted to see you here and available, Mr. Djordjevic.
17 There has been a motion to add some photographs of a mosque to the
18 exhibits. We can hear your response, if you wish, tomorrow morning to
20 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I shall state my position
21 tomorrow morning, Your Honour. In terms of these additional photographs,
22 I think they have to do with the mosque in Cirez. I have read this in
23 the supplemental information sheet, but I will use this opportunity
24 tomorrow if I may.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. We will commence the evidence of the witness
1 now. We won't get very far into his evidence by the look of the time.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon, sir.
4 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sorry that we have kept you here. We were
6 dealing with another witness by videolink from Pristina.
7 THE WITNESS: I appreciate that.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Would you please read aloud the affirmation that
9 is shown to you.
10 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
11 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
12 WITNESS: ANDRAS JANOS RIEDLMAYER
13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Please sit down.
14 Ms. Kravetz has quite a few questions for you.
15 MS. KRAVETZ: Thank you very much, Your Honours.
16 Examination by Ms. Kravetz:
17 Q. Good morning, sir. Could you please state your full name for the
19 A. My name is Andras Janos Riedlmayer.
20 Q. Mr. Riedlmayer, what is your profession?
21 A. I'm an art documentation specialist.
22 Q. And where are you currently employed, Mr. Riedlmayer?
23 A. I work for the Documentation Centre for Islamic Art and
24 Architecture of the Aga Khan Program at the Fine Arts Library of
25 Harvard University
1 Q. Thank you for that.
2 Exhibit 01790.01 is your curriculum vitae which you provided to
3 us yesterday, an updated copy of the curriculum vitae we had. We will
4 not go into it in detail as it sets out your academic and professional
5 background in quite some detail, but I would like to ask you if you could
6 very briefly summarise for the Court your experience working in the
8 A. I began my academic interest in the Balkans more than 40 years
9 ago. I was a student at the University of Chicago
10 thesis: History of Bosnia-Herzegovina During the Crisis of 1878. I then
11 went on to graduate school at Princeton University
12 Ottoman history, dealing, among other matters, with the Balkans. It was
13 in that period that I made my first visit to the former Yugoslavia in the
14 1970s as a student. Since then, I've gone on to get a professional
15 degree in library and information science from Simmons College
16 school of library and information science. And since 1985 I've directed
17 the documentation centre for Islamic art and architecture at Harvard.
18 When the war in the Gulf broke out at the beginning of the 1990s,
19 I began an interest in the intersection between cultural heritage and its
20 protection in international law as a result of various inquiries that I
21 had from researchers. And I was in the process of putting together a
22 sourcebook with a focus on the Middle East when the wars in the Balkans
23 broke out. And I started collecting information and was engaged mainly
24 in the mid-1990s in efforts to assist cultural institutions and
25 colleagues in the former Yugoslavia
2 When the war in Kosovo broke out in 1998/1999, I once again
3 followed the events closely and became aware that there were allegations
4 of cultural destruction. When the war ended in June of 1999 and the
5 United Nations took on Kosovo as its first civil administration mission,
6 I assumed that UNESCO would get the culture brief. And having had
7 contacts with UNESCO headquarters in Paris before as part of my efforts
8 on behalf of cultural institutions in Bosnia, I was able to call up
9 contacts there and to ask whether they had any plans to conduct a
10 comprehensive post-war inventory of the condition of cultural property in
11 the aftermath of the war. And I was informed that they didn't have the
12 resources and that they would focus their efforts on educational matters.
13 Thereupon, I put together a project for a quick post-war survey
14 of cultural heritage in Kosovo, and I enlisted a colleague, a young
15 architect named Andrew Herscher got a grant from the
16 Packard Humanities Institute and proceeded to go on a survey in October
17 of 1999.
18 Q. May I stop you there, sir, before you go further. We're going to
19 speak about your participation in the Kosovo project in a minute.
20 MS. KRAVETZ: Just before we move on, Your Honours, I would like
21 to tender the curriculum vitae of this witness, 65 ter 01790.01. I
22 should explain that we had a different version in the e-court system and
23 yesterday the witness, when he came for proofing, he brought with him an
24 updated copy that he had just prepared. We've disclosed this. It's only
25 available in English so far, and we are anticipating receiving a
1 translation in the following days. So at this stage I don't know if this
2 exhibit -- I would like to tender it, but it may be better to mark it for
3 identification until we receive the B/C/S translation.
4 JUDGE PARKER: It will be marked.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01097, marked
6 for identification.
7 MS. KRAVETZ: Thank you.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Would the speakers kindly observe the pause
9 between questions and answers for the sake of interpretation. Thank you.
10 MS. KRAVETZ:
11 Q. Mr. Riedlmayer, we've just been reminded that since we're
12 speaking the same language in court today we need to make a pause between
13 question and answer so those assisting in court today can do their work.
14 You were telling us about your involvement in a survey of
15 destruction of cultural heritage in Kosovo. The report that is before
16 Your Honours here in this -- in these proceedings is for reference
17 65 ter 01789, refers to the cultural heritage project. And you have
18 already explained how you became involved, and I interrupted you when you
19 were speaking about the funding. If you could go further and say -- tell
20 us how you received funding and how you carried out this survey.
21 A. We -- Mr. Herscher and I approached the Packard Humanities
22 Institute which is a registered charity and which sponsors various
23 cultural-related projects in the Balkans and other parts of the world.
24 We approached them basically for the expenses of our survey, which took
25 approximately one month to -- for the initial phase in Kosovo. And then
1 we returned for two additional visits in 2000 and 2001.
2 Q. And overall what was the duration of this project?
3 A. The total duration of the project was three years. Of that there
4 were three visits to Kosovo of approximately three weeks each, and then
5 this time spent, both before and after the survey in compiling
6 information, doing research, and in preparing the report.
7 Q. Now, your report in section 1.2, and this is on page 4, sets out
8 the goals of the project and it indicates that you set out to ascertain
9 the condition of all cultural monuments and religious monuments, those
10 listed and not listed. Could you explain to the Court the methodology
11 you used. How did you go about selecting sites and the methodology you
12 used to conduct this survey?
13 A. Our initial goal was to look at sites of cultural significance in
14 Kosovo, so the first phase of the project from June through October
15 of 1999 was to conduct research based on published information on the
16 notable cultural sites in Kosovo. Already at that early stage after the
17 war there were already allegations aired by various parties ranging from
18 human rights organisations, the Government of Yugoslavia, by the
19 religious communities, like the Serbian Orthodox church and the Islamic
20 community of Kosovo, giving details on particular sites that had -- were
21 allegedly destroyed or damaged in the war.
22 And so for the sake of economy, we focused our report on sites
23 concerning which there had been allegations that saved us efforts on
24 sites which were uncontroversially undamaged, however we did spot-check
25 all the major monuments as well, whether or not there had been
1 allegations. We took every allegation seriously and made an effort to
2 conduct an investigation on site wherever possible.
3 Q. And I understand from your report that this survey comprised
4 cultural and religious monuments that belonged to different communities
5 in Kosovo province; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, you've spoken about how you conducted -- how you began and
8 how you relied upon this material that you compiled. There is a section
9 in your report that refers to the sources used, and I was wondering if
10 you could give some detail as to that.
11 This is, for reference, Appendix 2 of the report.
12 A. Yes, Appendix 2 of the report, Your Honours, consists of our
13 various sources of information. The most immediate source, of course,
14 were our personal site visits. We visited, I believe, 144 different
15 sites during our visits to Kosovo. And in addition, whenever possible,
16 we tried to obtain information and photographs from sources that we
17 considered reliable such as the cultural heritage authorities, the
18 various religious communities, and in some instances from other sources
19 as well such as individuals, all of which are enumerated in the report,
20 along with our assessment as to their limitations or shortcomings.
21 Q. Now, once you had compiled this information from the different
22 sources, how did you go about analysing it and recording this
24 A. For each item in each site visited - and "site" for our purposes
25 is either a single building or institution or a complex of institutions
1 located in one place - for each site we would compile all the
2 information, grade the degree of damage, if damage is present, according
3 to criteria that we had established beforehand. In all cases this
4 assessment was carried out jointly by Mr. Herscher and myself and we had
5 to agree on the grade we assigned. We would describe the damage and then
6 would also include, whenever possible, photographs post-war or pre-war.
7 We made it a rule that unless we had photographic evidence for a site we
8 would not include it in our survey.
9 Whenever possible we would have information corroborated from
10 multiple independent sources. In addition, we made an effort to include
11 other kinds of evidence, for example, first-hand media reports. We never
12 included a site solely on the basis of media allegations, but media
13 reports could be useful for things like establishing at the time at which
14 a site may have been damaged. For example, if a reporter passes a site
15 and notes that it's intact, we know that if damage occurs -- if it
16 occurred, it occurred after that date. If they pass a site and mention
17 that the church or the mosque has been blown up, we know that the damage
18 occurred prior to the presence of the reporter. This was important for
19 us because we were carrying out the survey in the aftermath of war. We
20 were not present when the destruction occurred.
21 Q. Now, on page 10 of your report, this is section 3.0, you speak
22 about the use of a database. Could you explain how this database was
23 developed and what it consisted of.
24 A. Okay. Well, the database, Your Honours, which was submitted as
25 part of the report, consists of a formatted entry for every site. I
1 don't know if we have an example of such an entry or --
2 Q. We will get to that later on. Unfortunately, we have limited
3 time today.
4 A. Okay, so I will say in general terms that the formatted entry
5 includes identifying information about the site or monument. The various
6 names its known by, its location, its GPS coordinates, a description of
7 the damage to the building if present, observations about damage to
8 surrounding buildings if any, then the damage description, photographs,
9 an informant statement, if any informant came forward and offered
10 information we would summarise it and put it there along with the contact
11 information in case it would be helpful to the Court. And then
12 additional information such as bibliography, published information about
13 the building, and media accounts if any. So that was the general
14 composition of each entry. This entry was put into a database which was
15 then sortable, so you could work the database to figure out how many
16 churches, how many mosques which were damaged, to what degree, and so
18 Q. Thank you. We will look at examples of these entries during the
19 course of your testimony tomorrow.
20 Just going back to the preparation of your report and how you
21 conducted the survey, while you were carrying out this survey did you
22 have any contact with representatives of the Office of the Prosecution of
23 this Tribunal?
24 A. When we first applied for funding to do this research, while we
25 were waiting word on whether the funding came through, we made contact
1 with the Office of the Prosecutor of the ICTY to inquire whether they
2 would be interested in the results of our survey. Our survey was not
3 commissioned by them, but we thought that among the various parties that
4 might be interested in these results would be the Office of
5 the Prosecutor.
6 And they, in turn, informed us that they might be interested in
7 our results, that they couldn't sponsor our survey, but that they
8 encouraged us to stop at The Hague
9 briefing on what kind of documentation would be useful to the Court. So
10 on our way to Kosovo, we stopped at The Hague for an afternoon and met
11 with members of the Office of the Prosecution for approximately an hour
12 or two.
13 And they briefed us in general terms, again, first of all
14 pointing out that we were on our own, that we were not acting on behalf
15 of the Tribunal, that in order for our survey to have any credibility it
16 had to be impartial and address allegations by all sides, that we were
17 not authorised to take depositions but if people came forward with
18 information we should take down the nature of the information and the
19 contact information for the people who came forward, that, for example,
20 it would be useful in the case of buildings that were destroyed to seek
21 out photographs taken immediately before the war as close as possible to
22 the events, so as to establish that the building was indeed destroyed in
23 the war and not before the war.
24 And also, they assured us that while the ICTY office in Pristina
25 could not assist us in other ways, they would be able to give us
1 information about the security situation. So each day we would check in
2 with the Pristina office of the ICTY, and they would advise us, for
3 example, if we were planning to go to Mitrovica and the day we were
4 planning to Mitrovica is when the first bridge riot occurred and they
5 advised us not to go. So we visited Mitrovica on a subsequent occasion.
6 But that was the limit of our contact with the OTP at that point.
7 They did not suggest what our conclusions should be, what our methods
8 should be, other than in these general terms as to what would make for
9 useful evidence.
10 Q. And once you had concluded your survey and drafted your report,
11 did the Office of the Prosecution have any input as to the contents of
12 the report or the contents of the database that you have prepared?
13 A. None. What happened is we prepared our report, and at that point
14 our main contact was with UNMIK which was interested in our report as a
15 means of establishing priorities for reconstruction. And it was only in
16 2001 that the OTP contacted us and asked us if we could prepare the
17 version for the purposes of the Tribunal. And so in 2001 we submitted
18 that report. We had no suggestion as to what its contents should be or
19 what its conclusions should be. We merely submitted it and our
20 correspondence with the Tribunal involved entirely technical issues.
21 Q. Thank you for that. We will get back to your report tomorrow.
22 MS. KRAVETZ: But at this stage, Your Honours, I seek to tender
23 it into evidence. This is 65 ter 01789 and I ask that that be received.
24 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be P01098.
1 MS. KRAVETZ:
2 Q. Sir, did you previously testify before this Tribunal in the case
3 of Milutinovic et al. in relation to the report that you have prepared?
4 A. I have.
5 Q. Before coming to court today, did you have the opportunity to
6 review your previous testimony?
7 A. I have.
8 Q. And having reviewed your testimony, if you were asked the same
9 questions today that you were asked during the last time that you were
10 here would you provide the same answers?
11 A. I would.
12 Q. Thank you for that.
13 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honours, I seek to tender the Milutinovic
14 transcript and this is 65 ter 05017 and I ask that that be received.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, it will be received.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01099.
17 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honours, I see we have very few minutes left,
18 and I intend to move on to a different topic. It might be a good moment
19 to stop for the day.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Ms. Kravetz.
21 I'm afraid we must adjourn in a minute. The courtroom is used
22 otherwise in the afternoon. We will resume tomorrow morning at 9.00 and
23 continue your evidence then.
24 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.42 p.m.
1 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 16th day of
2 July, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.