1 Friday, 17 July 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning.
7 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE PARKER: I'd remind you of the affirmation you made which
9 still applies, and Mr. Djordjevic will continue his questions.
10 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, before we resume, I'd like to clarify
11 an answer I made at the very end of yesterday's session if I can.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Please.
13 THE WITNESS: Mr. Djordjevic, you asked me about the various
14 projects that our Kosovo Cultural Heritage Project had undertaken. The
15 projects involving the lodge owned by the Serbian Orthodox Church at
16 Velika Hoca and the kulas, we were involved with Cultural Heritage
17 Without Borders in the planning stages, but the actual funding for the
18 reconstruction itself came from the Swedish International
19 Development Agency and the European Commission.
20 So I just wanted to clarify that.
21 WITNESS: ANDRAS JANOS RIEDLMAYER [Resumed]
22 Cross-examination by Mr. Djordjevic: [Continued]
23 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you. Yesterday we heard about the Swedish
24 foundation. You said that you had received funds for reconstruction
25 of your projects with them. I'm interested in the following: Since we
1 heard there were problems, Mr. Riedlmayer, for the restoration of the
2 church in Drsnik because the Orthodox priests there asked that it be done
3 together with the patriarchy in Belgrade
4 and you said that the mosque was restored, and what I'm interested in --
5 I assume that the mosque was restored in agreement with the
6 Islamic Community in Kosovo. Is this correct, and can we agree with this
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. Do you perhaps know, are you aware of the reasons, why there were
10 no negotiations with the patriarchy of the Serbian Orthodox Church in
12 restoration of the Drsnik monastery or not?
13 A. Okay. Our initial contacts were with Father Savo Janjic and
14 Petar Ulemek of the Orthodox Eparchy of Raska and Prizren. And things
15 looked promising and then certain conditions kept coming up about working
16 with the Serbian Institute for the Protection of Monuments and UNMIK, the
17 UN Mission, insisted that it had to be done through the UNMIK
18 authorities. And at that point we stepped back and I don't know where
19 the negotiations further went. At that point I was no longer in Kosovo,
20 and some of that contact was carried out by Mr. Herscher. But all of the
21 projects were administratively complicated by conflicting constituencies
22 and bureaucratic difficulties, including the mosque project. It took
23 twice as long as we had originally thought.
24 Q. Thank you. My next question refers to your associate and
25 colleague Herscher. Am I correct if I were to conclude that the work
1 that you did, you mentioned the Kosovska Mitrovica area and the library
2 in the southern part of Kosovska Mitrovica, was something that you did
3 pro bono, not under a specific agreement or a contract, while
4 Mr. Herscher was at some post in the UNMIK institutions? And if he was,
5 can you please clarify for us what that was.
6 A. Okay. At that point Mr. Herscher was not yet employed by UNMIK.
7 I received a special mission from the UNMIK Department of Culture to
8 carry out this inspection of the library. There had previously been a
9 mission from the International Federation of Library Associations in
10 Mitrovica to carry out the survey of the library, and this was a
11 follow-up mission. And basically UNMIK agreed to pay for my hotel.
12 Otherwise, I received no honourarium. I spent the day in Mitrovica,
13 wrote my report, and then the following day returned to the
14 United States. It merely extended my stay in Kosovo by one day.
15 Q. Mr. Herscher, what will his post be later in UNMIK? What will
16 his post be?
17 A. He was a -- received a six-month contract later that year to be
18 assistant head of the Department of Culture of the UN Mission in Kosovo.
19 Subsequently when the previous head left for a while, he was acting head.
20 Then he returned to the United States and began his teaching career. And
21 subsequently I understand he worked as a consultant for UNMIK.
22 Q. Thank you. Together with Mr. Herscher you wrote a work named
23 "Monument and Crime"; am I correct?
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. Can you tell me when this study or work was published and what
1 was its main topic? What do you exactly deal with in this work that you
2 did jointly with Mr. Herscher?
3 A. Okay. This article appeared in a cultural theory journal called
4 "Grey Room." I believe it appeared in the autumn of 2001. I don't have
5 my CV in front of me. And it was -- consisted of an essay and a series
6 of photographs, and the essay dealt with the various significations of
7 architecture in Kosovo and how they were used in various political
8 arguments concerning the status of Kosovo. The article, I assume, has
9 been made available to you. It's been some years since I've read it
10 last. If you have specific questions about it, I would be glad to answer
12 Q. I found this article myself and I read it, but I would like to
13 hear from you about certain political observations that you referred to
14 there in relation to the destruction of cultural monuments in Kosovo and
15 the cultural heritage of Kosovo. Which monuments were the main topic of
16 observation in your article? Were they the monuments of all cultures in
17 a multi-ethnic approach, or was it an article related to the Islamic
18 culture, which, as you said yourself, was your area of expertise?
19 A. As I recall, the article dealt with all the elements of culture
20 in Kosovo, but it was not meant to be a survey.
21 Q. And what was the objective?
22 A. The article was invited to the journal which dealt with issues of
23 cultural theory and representation, and part of the argument of the
24 article was that cultural heritage is not by its nature something that is
25 detached from political events and political views, that it can be used
1 to promote political arguments or neglected in the service of political
2 arguments. As I say, it's been a while, so if you would like to quote
3 something I can respond to it; but in general terms this is what it's
5 Q. I'm not going to be dwelling on this anymore. Thank you for your
6 reply, and it will be very useful to read that essay of yours. But am I
7 correct if I were to say that you also published together a work
8 "Burned Books and Scattered Relics." Am I correct if I say that?
9 A. The article "Burned Books and Blasted Shrines" was something that
10 appeared in a UNESCO Courier. It was an interview, and a very short
11 piece, one-page long. I assume that's what you're referring to.
12 Q. Yes, are you able to remember the main topic of that article or
13 that interview?
14 A. The interview, as far as I recall, merely asked very briefly
15 about our mission in Kosovo and what our findings were. It was a short
16 oral summary. I was interviewed by telephone from UNESCO's Paris
18 Q. Thank you. And now something about the Packard Institute, which
19 you mentioned was one of the donors and that they financed the entire
20 thing, that you had contacted them. And I heard during the
21 examination-in-chief by my learned friend Ms. Kravetz something about
22 that. However, making inquiries about the Packard Institute, I found on
23 the institute's web page something which I would like you to clarify for
24 me. What I found was that the Packard Institute does not finance
25 projects from others. They do not provide funds for projects of others,
1 but finance only projects it considers to be their own. So the project
2 that you were involved with in Kosovo, was that a Packard project and
3 that's why it received financing, or was this some kind of exception; and
4 if it was, can you please explain what this is about.
5 A. Let me first explain about the Packard Humanities Institute. The
6 name Packard relates, originally, to one of the founders of the famous
7 Hewlett-Packard computer company, but the person who founded and runs
8 that institute is the son of that founder. He has no connection with the
9 company. He is a retired professor of classics and has various cultural
10 interests. He supports archaeological excavations in Greece, Albania
12 I know the web site to which you refer. It is meant as a way of
13 deterring people from barraging them with project proposals. Like many
14 private foundations in the US
15 works is that projects are referred to them by people they trust, by sort
16 of an advisory board. And earlier, before the Kosovo project was
17 conceived, I had had contact with the Packard Humanities Institute
18 already concerning projects involving reconstruction of manuscript
19 libraries in Bosnia
20 not to support the initiative, but that established the contact.
21 And so when we came up with this Kosovo Cultural
22 Heritage Project, I used that contact to personally approach the people
23 at the institute and ask if they would be interested in funding it. And
24 after some time they said yes. Under very restricted circumstances. We
25 had money, only a certain amount of money only for a certain amount of
1 time, and not renewable. So I guess you could qualify it as an
2 exception. But the web site notwithstanding, the projects that they do
3 fund, they don't manage them out of the Packard Humanities Institute.
4 These are projects run by other people, and they provide the funding.
5 Q. Thank you. The founders of the Packard Foundation are
6 Mr. Packard and his wife. Who manages the institute, as for that, I
7 didn't know that it was the son, I didn't find that on the web site. But
8 on the web site I found other links that direct to the separate or
9 special projects of the Packard institute you spoke about, the
10 archaeological excavations, and the financing of such projects. I did
11 find that. But this project about the damage to the cultural heritage in
12 Kosovo is something that I did not find on any of the links of this
13 institution. Very well, I understand you explained that it was an
15 The next question for you is that you spent some considerable
16 time of your examination-in-chief in explaining that you worked
17 independently, you were not so connected with The Hague Tribunal OTP at
18 that time, that it was simply a project of yours, for which I see that
19 was supported by Harvard, if I understood that correctly. So could you
20 explain that part as well. And finally, the project is, in essence, your
21 project and the project of Mr. Herscher; am I correct when I conclude
23 A. Well, yes. First of all, under American law a charitable
24 institution, such as the Packard Foundation cannot easily give out money
25 to individuals acting on their own, they have to channel the money
1 through another non-profit institution. So we arranged for a centre at
2 Harvard to act as the disburser of the funds; however, the project itself
3 was not a project of Harvard University
4 principal researchers, Mr. Herscher and myself. When I worked on the
5 Kosovo project, I was on vacation from my Harvard job. It's not that
6 they were paying me to do this. So the connection with Harvard was
7 essentially a nominal one. Does that answer your question, sir?
8 Q. Let me repeat the last thing I said in my question or the
9 conclusion with which I think you will agree. It was a project of you
10 and your partner in the project, and Mr. Herscher; am I correct when I
11 say that?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 My next question -- well, I apologise to the Trial Chamber. I'm
15 going to do my best today -- well, I'm trying all the time to take into
16 consideration everything that you said in the Milutinovic case. This is
17 something that is already in the case file of this case, and I'm just
18 going to then ask you about things that were not clarified in that case
19 as it relates to your testimony or your statement.
20 So one of the things dealt with by my colleagues, which I
21 personally believe was not clarified completely, is the way in which you
22 drafted the report, which we all have, and it implies evidence or records
23 with photographs of the damaged buildings. There is also a section in
24 which you talk about the eye-witnesses or people who are sources of all
25 types of information. What I would like to ask you is this. You say
1 that it's your project. Did you set yourself the task, number one, to
2 note the damage in the objects that are part of the cultural heritage of
3 Kosovo -- well, this is clear to me. But did you also set a task for
4 yourself to establish the causes of the damage and who caused the damage?
5 Because in the reply that you gave to my learned friend during the
6 examination-in-chief, you said, among other things, that we took those
7 statements in order to assist the Court.
8 Now, this is not clear to me. First of all, up until that time I
9 had one opinion; after that, I had a different opinion. So just explain
10 to me what was your task in relation to this second item? It's clear to
11 me in relation to the first item, but what was your task in assisting the
12 Court to acquire information on the manner in which the damage was caused
13 on these cultural monuments? Did you do something in order to acquire
14 that knowledge? How was the work organised?
15 A. Well, if you look at the preliminary section of our report, it
16 states that what prompted our report was the number of allegations that
17 surfaced during and immediately after the war regarding the destruction
18 of cultural monuments. We set out to investigate these allegations in
19 their fullness in the sense that we wanted to know: Had these monuments
20 been damaged; and if so, when and how. And the damage of who damaged it,
21 we were limited in our capability so as to determine that. But to the
22 extent that we acquired information that would point in that direction,
23 we felt obliged to record it.
24 The manner in which we recorded it was designed to aid anyone who
25 was pursuing an investigation of who was responsible, to then proceed
1 with those leads. But obviously we are not criminal investigators. The
2 conclusions we can draw ourselves have to do with things like: What is
3 the condition of the building? What might have caused the building to be
4 in the condition that it is in? And more general ones about patterns of
6 Q. Am I correct if I were to say that your investigation was limited
7 only to the period you refer to in your report immediately after the KFOR
8 forces entered Kosovo, therefore, after June? So the period that you
9 spent in Kosovo and Metohija and inspected 144 monuments. I think you
10 mentioned that figure.
11 Can you please tell me exactly how much time did you spend in
12 Kosovo? Did you go there on several occasions when you were writing the
13 report with Dr. -- Mr. Herscher or did you -- did your stay precede the
14 writing of the actual report and how much time in total did you spend in
16 A. Okay. As I have indicated, I believe during the direct
17 examination, I -- Mr. Herscher and I went to Kosovo three times. The
18 first time was in October of 1999, when we spent most of the month there,
19 approximately three and a half weeks; the second time was three weeks in
20 the following October, October of 2000; and the last time was in
21 March and April of 2001, again for about three weeks. The amount of time
22 that we spent on each monument varied, obviously. If a monument had been
23 completely destroyed, there wasn't a lot to do other than take a picture
24 and walk the site. If it was a more complex one, we would spend
25 considerable time. The greatest amount of time was taken up by
1 travelling, because even though Kosovo is a small place, the
2 infrastructure was in very bad shape. So we spent enormously long days,
3 usually leaving before daylight and returning long after dark.
4 Q. Tell me, please, while you were in Kosovo, were you stationed in
5 one place only or did you travel around and stayed wherever the subject
6 of your interest was?
7 A. That varied according to our visit. The first time around we
8 were based in Pristina and took long day-trips out of Pristina. The
9 second and third trip we stayed not only in Pristina but also in Pec, in
10 western Kosovo.
11 Q. Thank you. My next question is as follows. You mentioned the
12 time-limit and your time constraints with reference to your report and
13 you also mentioned the bad shape of roads in Kosovo. How did you make
14 arrangements for your travels to the sites that you wanted to visit? Did
15 you have any security detail with you or did you arrange that ad hoc
16 together with UNMIK authorities or did you organise it by yourself on an
17 ad hoc basis?
18 A. We had no prior contact with UNMIK authorities or anyone else in
19 that sense. We hired a car and driver. The car and driver was
20 recommended to me by somebody I knew who was a reporter who had used the
21 same driver before. What helped matters is that the driver was
22 bilingual. He new Turkish as well as Albanian. And so I was able to use
23 his services as an interpreter in cases where I couldn't speak to people
24 directly. We hired him on a daily basis and paid him off at the end of
25 each day, and I think at the end of the trip he had ruined his car but
1 had enough money to buy a new one.
2 Q. Thank you. You mentioned that before each trip you went either
3 to the offices of the Prosecution or UNMIK - please remind me what you
4 said - in order to acquire information about your destination and to
5 investigate about the security situation with regard to your forthcoming
6 trip. Since I didn't realise from that record where you got this
7 information, for example, when you spoke about Mitrovica you said you
8 weren't going there because of the riots there on the river Ibar.
9 A. Yes. This was our sole contact with the UNMIK field -- I'm
10 sorry, with the ICTY field office in Pristina. The ICTY field office
11 would, on a daily basis, receive a security report from KFOR, the NATO
12 authorities, and they encouraged us in advance of each day's trip to
13 check with them on what the daily forecast was for security environment.
14 And in most cases there was no problem. On that particular day, we were
15 warned not to go to Mitrovica and so we didn't. We didn't inform them
16 actually where we were going. We just asked for the copy of the daily
17 security report.
18 Q. With your previous answer you just responded to how it worked on
19 the road. As I understand, this translation from English into Turkish
20 and Albanian, vice versa, can you explain in more detail how this was
21 achieved because you had a person, as you said, who was your field
23 A. Basically on each expedition we would have our driver, we would
24 have Mr. Herscher and myself, and on various occasions we took people
25 with us to act as guides. For example, somebody from the
1 Institute for the Protection of Monuments.
2 The language aspect of it worked the following way: I am fluent
3 in a number of languages, including German and Turkish. I'm fluent in
4 Turkish in part because I spent three years in Turkey on a Fulbright. In
5 Kosovo there are lots of people who have worked in Switzerland and
7 the cities such as Prizren, to a certain extent in Vucitrn, Mitrovica,
8 and Pristina, you will find a lot of people who also know Turkish. I
9 even spoke with Serbs who knew Turkish. It was what people in the cities
10 had as a skill. So that worked for a communication. Occasionally we
11 would be in a situation where the person only knew Albanian. In that
12 case we asked -- I would speak Turkish to our driver, and our driver
13 would translate from Albanian and Turkish and back. So there was only
14 one language. So it wasn't English to Turkish to Albanian; it was
15 just -- I spoke Turkish, he translated into Turkish.
16 Q. At this. This translator and driver of yours, was he a driver by
17 profession or did he have some other occupation?
18 A. By occupation he had been before the war a musician and had
19 performed on Pristina Radio, and he had travelled throughout Kosovo
20 giving concerts so he was familiar with the roads and he had a car, which
21 was important.
22 Q. Thank you. In your report drafted in 2001, you speak,
23 inter alia, about the Kosovo Institute for Protection of Monuments, the
24 Institute for the Protection of Monuments of the then-Yugoslavia. But
25 what I'm interested in is that in one of the paragraphs you say that the
1 criteria that the Yugoslav authorities applied when they compiled a list
2 of monuments to be protected were conditioned to a great extent or
3 dependent to a great extent on political reasoning. Since you have a
4 university degree in social sciences, I would like to ask you what was
5 your meaning by saying that? And then depending on your answer I would
6 move on to my next question, which is related to this one. But before
7 that can I have your answer, please.
8 A. Certainly. The reference was to the legislation which was
9 enacted to declare certain monuments and sites to be under legal
10 protection. This kind of protection legislation exists in most countries
11 of the world at various levels, either local or national, and usually
12 entitles the monument to a degree of protection in the sense that
13 destruction or alteration of the monument without permission is
14 prohibited and monuments become eligible for certain degrees of
15 restoration assistance from the central government.
16 Now, the criteria in all cases represent a judgement as to what
17 is important and worthy of preserving. And while certain of the criteria
18 are universal and sensible, is this a monument of great age? Is it
19 connected with some important historic event? Is it something that has
20 gained universal admiration and is represented in the literature, in the
21 professional literature? But to another extent, the -- especially the
22 funding aspect of it which is closely linked to the designation has to do
23 with what a government, what an authority, considers to be a priority.
24 So, for example, during the times of communist Yugoslavia, the
25 greatest attention was paid to memorials of the Second World War and of
1 the Partizan movement, and every -- for example, in Kosovo -- in addition
2 to the museum of Kosovo
3 principal tasks preserving and exhibiting elements of the Partizan
5 So in the same sense the determination of what to designate and
6 what not to designate was not merely a neutral decision. It had to do
7 with what was considered politically important as well.
8 And what I was referring to in the report, and I assume what you
9 are referring to here, is the fact that although Kosovo has many
10 monuments of great age, both Islamic and Orthodox, very few Islamic
11 monuments had been designated to be under protection, whereas a greater
12 number of monuments had gone under protection that were of the Orthodox
13 heritage. And this is also reflected in the amount of money that was
14 then subsequently spent on restoration efforts.
15 Q. Thank you. My next question: Are you aware that back in 1977
16 the Law on the Protection of Cultural Heritage was passed, referring to
17 the then-autonomous province of Kosovo and Metohija, and this is a period
18 that the Albanian population claimed to be the period of their highest
19 autonomy enjoyed by them. Do you know that all the employees of the
20 institute, including the director, were ethnic Albanians? And I'm
21 talking about the Institute for the Protection of Monuments. And do you
22 know how -- what provisions this law made concerning the protection of
23 monuments in Kosovo? Do you know how many Serbian Orthodox monuments
24 have been placed under protection under this specific law? Can I first
25 have this answer, please.
1 A. Okay. I'm aware of -- that the legislation was passed. I do not
2 know the composition of the staff of the Institute for the Protection of
3 Monuments in the 1970s, however I'm aware of what it was in the 1990s, in
4 which period it was not majority Albanian. As to the numbers of
5 monuments that were placed under protection, my understanding is that
6 this varied from year to year because additional monuments were added at
7 very points, and so I don't have an exact figure. There were some
8 figures from the period under investigation, namely, the status quo of
9 the 1990s, which we derived from publications. We did not have access to
10 the full register. And they are cited in our report.
11 Q. In that period, many more monuments of the Serbian Orthodox
12 Church enjoyed protection. Now, apart from the ideological reasons, do
13 you know what else guided the government in providing funds for the
14 protection? Do you know which specific criteria have been laid down when
15 it comes to the protection of cultural monuments, for example, sacral
16 monuments, do you know exactly what criteria were in place because they
17 are very specifically listed in the law. And I am talking about the
18 criteria that would determine that -- for a specific monument to be
19 placed under protection.
20 A. Well, as to what guided the allocation of funds, I assume the
21 primary consideration was budgetary priorities. And I know that in much
22 of the latter period of the former Yugoslavia
23 so protections that were on the books did not necessarily result in
24 allocations of necessary funds.
25 As to the specific aspects of the law, I have not read the
2 Q. My next question is a general one. Are you aware today of, first
3 of all, the criteria being applied by the UNESCO? We know what is the
4 agenda of this UN agency, in order to declare a certain cultural asset
5 the world heritage? So can you tell us about the UNESCO criteria that
6 determine how certain monuments are being designated?
7 A. My understanding, and this really steps beyond my particular
8 expertise, is that the nominations for a site to be -- or monument to be
9 entered on the World Heritage List are submitted by the national UNESCO
10 committees to the world heritage section of UNESCO in Paris, and that it
11 takes a fairly long process for UNESCO to arrive at such a designation.
12 I also know that in the case of the former Yugoslavia before the
13 year 2000 there were very few World Heritage Sites, one of them being
15 but that before 2004, I believe, there were no designated World Heritage
16 Sites either in Kosovo or in Bosnia
17 Q. You will agree with me that you're not familiar with the explicit
18 criteria applied by UNESCO in the process of assigning a certain monument
19 the title of the World Heritage Site. However, my next question is as
20 follows. We're now in the year 2009. Do you know at present how many
21 monuments there are in Kosovo from the Serbian cultural media that are
22 considered World Heritage Site, and how many monuments of the Serbian
23 Orthodox Church are declared World Heritage Sites? Are there any Roman
24 Catholic sites that are given this title or any other building or site,
25 whether it be sacral or religious, that enjoys this status at present?
1 A. You mean in Kosovo?
2 Q. [In English] Exactly.
3 A. Okay. I haven't been keeping track of this as much as perhaps I
4 should have, but my understanding is that the monastery at Visoki Decani
5 was the first to get that designation. And then the Bogorodica Ljeviska
6 church in Prizren and Gracanica monastery and, I believe, the Pec
7 Patriarchate, so that makes four, I believe. I'm not aware of others,
8 but I may be mistaken.
9 As far as Roman Catholic churches, none are World Heritage Sites.
10 There are a few of great antiquity in Kosovo that are still standing.
11 There are some medieval ruins. And none of the Islamic sites have been
12 so designated, although there are some monuments of considerable
13 antiquity and artistic importance. But as I said, prior to 2004 there
14 were none of any category that had been so designated.
15 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Riedlmayer. Do you think that
16 the UNESCO experts were guided by political judgements when they afforded
17 four Serbian monasteries the status of World Heritage Sites or were they
18 guided by some other reasons after all?
19 A. I'm very glad that these got the designation. They are indeed
20 great treasures of world art. I think it's indisputable. They're
21 mentioned in all the art history books. They represent a very
22 interesting moment in cultural history and are important, not only for
23 the region or for Serbian culture, but also for world culture. I would
24 not dispute that in the least.
25 Q. Well, this is indisputable. But I put a very specific question
1 to you whether the UNESCO, as well, was guided by political reasons when
2 they afforded these sites the status of extremely important
3 World Heritage Sites.
4 A. I would not believe that it was a political decision at all. As
5 I indicated in my earlier responses, there are certain monuments which,
6 simply by their nature, are obvious candidates for protection because of
7 their cultural importance, because of their age or historical
8 significance. I think these are certainly among them.
9 Q. We absolutely agree on this, Mr. Riedlmayer.
10 My next question is as follows: In Kosovo, do you know which are
11 the oldest mosques from which century that can really have a great
12 historical value, bearing in mind the history that happened in that
13 region and what is usually referred to as the traditional Islamic
14 architecture? Can you tell me if there are any mosques of that kind, I
15 think there are only a few of them, but I would like to hear the answer
16 from you because you are an expert in this area.
17 A. That's a fair question. The earliest mosques in Kosovo that are
18 still existent are from the fifteenth century. They include, among
19 others, the Bajrakli xhamija in Pec of which we saw a picture during the
20 direct examination. They include the Careva [phoen] xhamija, the
21 Emperor's mosque in Pristina. And then there is a ruined mosque near
22 Strpce, near a village called Mazgit, which dates from that period but is
23 in -- not a well-preserved state. Prizren has more than 30 different
24 mosques, and it -- many of them dating from the 15th and 16th centuries,
25 and it has been designated as a site of unusual importance by the World
1 Monuments Fund. And there are also a number of other mosques in smaller
2 locations in Kosovo, such as the mosque in Rogovo, the Hadum mosque in
3 Djakovica, which is now undergoing further restoration under UNESCO
4 auspices. And in addition to the mosques, there are also other Islamic
5 monuments like the hammam in Prizren and so forth. So indeed Kosovo has
6 some monuments of the Islamic tradition that are 500 or more years old
7 and some of them are of cultural importance.
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Riedlmayer. To the best of my knowledge, the
9 oldest monuments of that nature date from the sixteenth century and this
10 is the information that I acquired by relying on various sources in the
11 literature. However, since the purpose of my examination -- of my
12 cross-examination is not this subject. My next question will be - and I
13 kindly ask you to bear with me a little until I move to my next topic.
14 This is another general topic, and it refers to the methodology
15 of collecting information. I would like to notice that when you made
16 inquiries about the damage inflicted on the Serbian Orthodox sacral
17 monuments you mainly interviewed the clergy or the Serbs living in the
18 area and with whom you have an opportunity to contact. You mentioned
19 Father Savo Janjic, et cetera. When you inquired about how the damage
20 was caused to both the civilian and sacral monuments of the Islamic
21 culture, however, you mainly talked to the Albanians. However, when we
22 are talking about the St. Anton church, the Catholic church, you talked
23 about it also with the priest of that church.
24 So you do realise that my question is primarily aimed at this
25 methodology that you applied in collecting what I would call additional
1 information relating to the cause of damage relating to the perpetrators,
2 their identity, and the way in which they caused the damage. Now, when
3 you spoke about all these things, did you talk with the police? Did you
4 talk with anyone from the international community present in Kosovo? Did
5 you review any official information about this damage if any were
6 available? Now, I think this is a compound question, and I'm going to
7 stop now.
8 A. Okay. Let me see if I can sort it out. As to who our informants
9 were, we got our information on this category of information -- I'm
10 sorry, from wherever we could get it. For example, you mention the
11 destruction of -- I'm sorry, the destruction of the Serbian monasteries.
12 We spoke to the clergy because the clergy had collected a lot of
13 information and they were very active in publicising it. And so it
14 seemed like a natural way to go.
15 Similarly, in the case of St. Anthony's Catholic church in
16 Djakovica, I arrived at the church looking for signs of damage because it
17 had been one of the allegations listed in the Yugoslav White Book. When
18 I arrived there, I was pleased to find that the priest of the church,
19 Father Ambroz Ukaj, was present at the church, and furthermore, that he
20 spoke fluent Turkish. And so we spent about 45 minutes to an hour in
21 conversation and he told me that he had actually been in Djakovica during
22 the war. So he seemed to me to be an informant who had some valuable
23 information to provide.
24 Now, as to police, when we were there in October of 1999,
25 UNMIK police had to a great extent not really been established throughout
1 Kosovo yet. They were still in the process of setting up. There were
2 international policemen we met who had just arrived in Kosovo and who
3 were still orienting themselves. They had no records. Things were in a
4 fair state of chaos. It would not have been a productive use of our time
5 to try to go down to police stations and ask for that kind of
6 information, especially since that really was not the primary focus of
7 our investigation. We were there to look at buildings.
8 Now, let me see if there's anything else. International
9 community, we tried to get information from the international community,
10 and, to the extent that we could, we did get it. For example, in Pec
11 there was a very energetic young French woman who was working for UNMIK
12 who had organised a project to document the destruction of kulas. And so
13 we got their figures, not the first time around while their survey was
14 still in progress, but on our return trip to Kosovo.
15 UNESCO at that point had only one person seconded to the
16 UN administration, Mr. Mark Richmond his specialty was education, and he
17 had no information to offer on monuments or sites and no knowledge of
18 them. And similarly we tried without much success to get information
19 from local authorities. The one exception was Djakovica which had its
20 own municipal institute for the protection of monuments, and they were
21 quite helpful in providing us with information about monuments in that
23 Q. Thank you. You mentioned Mr. Mark Richmond. He also had
24 something to do, as far as I understood, with the allegations that
25 something of the cultural heritage was destroyed -- or rather, was not
1 destroyed. However, in your report you disputed his findings. Can you
2 please tell me what actually this whole thing was about when we are
3 talking about this person, this Mark Richmond.
4 A. I'm sorry, I do not recall what you are referring to. Can you
5 quote it back to me?
6 Q. Later, so we don't lose time because I have a lot of things to
7 put to you, I will go back to that after the break so that we don't lose
8 any time now. My following question has to do with the fact you say you
9 were in one of the Serbian monasteries and that KFOR did not allow you to
10 enter the monastery. Did I understood that correctly?
11 A. Yes, this was in Prizren, I believe. KFOR had surrounded the
12 Serbian Orthodox patriarchate and its monastery in Prizren, and they
13 didn't allow us in. I believe this is what you're referring to.
14 On a subsequent visit, Mr. Herscher did go inside. But in
15 October of 1999, they cited security reasons for not letting us in.
16 Remember that we were there on our own. We had no institutional clout to
17 throw at them.
18 Q. Precisely, that is my next question. Were you staying as part of
19 any institutions of the system and reported there about your area of
20 work? Did you ever any special passes or did you experience what you
21 experienced because your stay was an ad hoc trip as far as they were
23 A. Well, you -- for this you have to understand the post-war
24 situation in Kosovo. When we arrived in Kosovo we crossed over from
1 Jazince which is high up in the mountains. And it turned out we needed
2 no papers other than to show our passports, which they checked against
3 the list of presumably people who should not be admitted, we were not on
4 it, and we were in -- no stamps, nothing.
5 We arrived in Pristina and made some inquiries and found out that
6 UNHCR was holding weekly conferences of NGOs that were interested in
7 buildings of various sources. And so we attended those conferences. My
8 sense was that UNHCR was essentially acting as a forum for sharing
9 information, but they were not actively coordinating anything. And so to
10 cut the story short, at that point anyone could be active as an NGO in
11 Kosovo without going through great formalities. And we stayed there for
12 a month without having to register with the police or having any official
13 status whatsoever. When we were stopped at roadblocks, all we had to
14 show was our identification.
15 Q. Thank you. This explains quite a lot. You mentioned a little
16 while ago some civilian buildings, you mention the "konaks," the
17 "hammams," and the last thing that you mentioned will be a brief topic of
18 interest. These are the "kullas," or the towers. In your report you
19 mentioned that the towers were a traditional type of building in Kosovo
20 and in this part of the Balkans. I understand what you are trying to say
21 when you say "in Kosovo," but I want to ask you what do you mean when you
22 say "in this part of the Balkans"?
23 A. Okay. First of all, the term "kula" simply means tower, and
24 various structures that are called "kula" are found all the way from
1 construction, which is referred to in, for example, the Serbian
2 literature as Siptarska Kula, the Albanian "kulla," which is found mainly
3 in Kosovo and some adjacent areas of Macedonia and Montenegro
4 to be found in northern Albania
5 under the Enver Hoxha regime. So they were particular to that region and
6 were mainly found in Kosovo. And in Kosovo they were concentrated in
7 particular in the western part, the part in Serbia known as Metohija and
8 in Albanian as the Plain of Dukagjini.
9 Q. In view of the translation that I see Metohija and Dukagjin is
10 exactly the same area. Are we going to agree on that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you. Do you know the word "kula"? Which language is that
13 word appearing in primarily? Is it Albanian? Turkish? Serbian? Or any
14 other language?
15 A. Actually, in all of the ones you mentioned plus several more.
16 The root of the word I believe is Arabic, how -- and it just means
17 "tower," but -- whether spelled with one L as in Serbian or with two L's
18 as in Albanian. It is a building type that is know in the Balkans and
19 were particularly constructed in the 18th and 19th centuries.
20 Q. The word "kula" does have Arabic origin -- is of Arabic origin;
21 however, in Serbia
22 Turkish origin, as a word that has been taken into the language from the
23 Turkish language. And that is the reason when you say "kula" in the
24 Serbian language we all have an idea of what you have just said. Yeah,
25 we see that it represents a tower. I don't have any photographs, but
1 perhaps we will have some later. But are you able to describe what a
2 kula looks like in the western part of Kosovo? It is definitely a tower.
3 What sort of a tower is it? What does it consist of? What is it built
4 of? What is its height? Could you please describe it.
5 A. Generally, a kula is constructed of stone. It is a fairly
6 massive construction. I have read descriptions of how kulas were made,
7 the last ones that were constructed at the end of World War II were these
8 community projects where people would go out and collect stones from
9 river-beds. And what they are -- they're not towers in the sense that
10 most of them are not taller than they are wide, but they are unusually
11 high for a region in which most houses are fairly low to the ground.
12 They are usually two, in some cases three, or even four storeys high.
13 The lower part of the kula is usually made of massive unfinished stones.
14 The only finished stones are the ornamental entrance.
15 And at the very top of the kula usually wrapped around one corner
16 of the building is what's known in Albanian as "oda e burreve" the men's
17 room or guest-room which is the fancy room of the house. This is where
18 guests are received, where family councils meet. It has a fireplace. It
19 has benches running around.
20 The family usually lives in much plainer rooms on the floor
21 immediately below the guest-room, and the bottom is where the animals and
22 grain and agricultural tools are kept. So it's a development very much
23 like many of the medieval houses in other parts of Europe.
24 What's particular about the construction is that it is meant to
25 provide both shelter and protection. They were built in the eighteenth
1 and nineteenth century at a time when the area was very insecure. There
2 were bandits, there were family feuds. So the bottom floor where the
3 animals and the fodder were kept had no windows at all. The family areas
4 had very small windows. And the only part that had substantial windows
5 generally was the guest-room at the very top. Now, that's the typical
6 rural kula.
7 In the cities like Pec, there were also urban kula which had a
8 much more urbane design with bigger windows. A typical example is the
9 Kulla of Jashar Pasha in the centre of Pec which is also mentioned in my
10 report. The kulas were generally owned by a single extended Albanian
11 family. They would not necessarily all live within the same kula. Often
12 members of the family would live in smaller houses nearby as part of a
13 larger family compound. But even in modern times the kula was the centre
14 of great family occasions such as weddings and funerals where they would
15 all gather.
16 Is that a sufficient description?
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I'm now going to ask to have on
19 the monitor e-court evidence of the Defence and to show in order from
20 D004-2844 to D004-2848. So can we look at these photographs one by one
21 from 44 to 48, please, and can we please just stay five seconds on each
23 Q. I'm going to briefly comment. This is Bosnia, this is Bihac,
24 Western Bosnia, and what we see here is the Dizdar Kula in the Belgrade
25 fort, in Belgrade
1 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] The next, please.
2 Q. This is the memorial kula erected near Pristina in Gazimestan.
3 It's a monument to the fighters killed in the battle with the Turks in
5 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] And the next one, please.
6 Q. This is a kula from Bosnia
7 roof that is constructed at the top, and it is located in Gradac.
8 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] The next one, please.
9 Q. This is a kula in Istanbul
10 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Q. My question relating to all these kulas that you've seen, this
12 one is in Turkey
13 in the Balkan area. None of them are from Kosovo. My next question is
14 if any of the kulas that you've seen can be compared with any of the
15 kulas that are in Kosovo?
16 A. The answer is no; not except in the most general of terms.
17 "Kula," as we already discussed, is a generic word meaning "tower." One
18 thing you did not show which exists in many cities in the Balkans is a
19 Sahat Kula, a clock-tower, which are very slim and very tall. So
20 any structure that is a tower and of a certain historic period can be and
21 often is referred to as "kula." But not every kula, not every tower,
22 belongs to this class of typical ethnic Albanian dwelling.
23 Q. My next question is if you know that there were many kulas for
24 which you claim were typically Albanian that were owned by Serbs, not
25 only in cities.
1 A. I believe I mention in my report that there were kulas owned by
2 Serbs, and I also referred to the fact that these seemed to be the only
3 kulas that escaped destruction. However, as I pointed out in my
4 testimony in the Milutinovic case, among others, even the publications of
5 the Institute for the Protection of Monuments of the Republic of Serbia
6 in the 1990s included specific reference to the fact that these are
7 typically Albanian dwellings. I refer, for example, to the article by
8 Jovan Krunic, "Siptarska Kulla Metohije," the Albanian Towers
9 Metohija. So, yes, there was no law saying that every resident of every
10 kula had to be an Albanian, but they were associated with Albanian
12 Q. Could we connect them with the heritage that had to do with the
13 500-year-long stay of Turks in that area? You know when the Turks
14 withdrew from that area, it was at the beginning of the
15 twentieth century, actually, and in some places much later even.
16 A. Well, they can be connected in two ways. One is as you state,
17 the word "kula" is something that entered Balkan languages through
18 Turkish, but so did three-quarters of the words on any recipe in the --
19 restaurant in the Balkans. But the other way it is, of course, that
20 anything that happened during those 500 years is connected.
21 However, I'm not aware, in spite of many Albanians' claims that
22 "kullas" go back to antiquity, I am not aware of any kula that is older
23 than the eighteenth century. These were essentially an architectural
24 fashion that developed in the 1700s, peaked in the 1900s, and pretty much
25 ceased by the middle of the twentieth century. So it is particular -- to
1 a particular region and to a particular time-period.
2 Q. I will agree with you that there is no kula in Kosovo that is
3 older than the nineteenth century, actually, but I'm also going to agree
4 with those Albanians who told you that the kulas existed there even
5 before 500 years -- or 500 years earlier, or 400 years earlier. But what
6 I want to ask you is of a completely different nature; it has to do with
7 the facilities that were used for purposes of defence. Can you please
8 tell us now because now we are talking about the Siptar, the Albanian
9 "kullas," and this is something that Serb chroniclers also say, can you
10 please tell us, in relation to the households, Albanian households, where
11 would a kula be located in reference to a residential building of a
12 regular Albanian household? You said that there's a residential part and
13 the kulas were used for different ceremonial or special occasions,
14 burials and celebrations, and so on. Where were they located in relation
15 to the rest of the household?
16 A. Okay. Well, actually, I didn't say that people didn't live in
17 kulas. People did live in kulas. The second floor was usually family
18 living quarters. What I said is that they were -- as families grew and
19 Kosovo is one of the last places where you had the traditional Balkan
20 extended family, what's known in Serbian as "zadruga" where multiple
21 generations of the same family lived together and shared their money and
22 shared their work and child care and everything else. And so a compound
23 might contain a monumental kula and several smaller buildings around it.
24 And such a kula might be out in a village somewhere surrounded by
25 smaller houses or there might be an aggregation of kulas. For example,
1 there is a very famous village near Junik called Nivokaz which had
2 24 kulas all grouped together in a single village. So similarly, the old
3 town of Decani had an enormous number of kulas which were laid out on
4 streets. The kulas were right next to the street, and so they were like
5 ordinary townhouses, but what this was was a large village of kulas. So
6 not every one of them was an isolated compound in the country-side.
7 Q. Thank you. And my last question before the break, which is
8 approaching is: When you said that -- you said that the kula in the
9 ground floor they held cattle and the first floor was the residential
10 area and the second floor was the best rooms where they had celebrations
11 and special celebrations. Do you -- and you said that the kula, the
12 purpose of it was for habitation and also defence. When you said that,
13 what do you mean by that?
14 A. As I pointed out, the kula arose at the time when order was
15 breaking down in that region. In the eighteenth and nineteenth century
16 there were a lot of bandi ts and a lot of blood-feuds. And kulas,
17 because they were such massive structures, offered defence to the family
18 if it was attacked, whether by bandits, by tax collectors, or by the
19 rival family. So they could take shelter inside the windowless walls and
20 they had enough provisions in the bottom level so they wouldn't have to
21 necessarily go out for several days.
22 So in that sense, yes, they had it as a defensive purpose. And
23 because the windows were small, they weren't as vulnerable then as if
24 they had had larger windows. And does that answer your question?
25 Q. And finally, would you agree with my conclusion that kulas at the
1 time were a necessity, not a fashion trend, in late nineteenth century
2 when such a large number of them were constructed in Kosovo?
3 A. Well, I think both would be my answer because the social
4 conditions to which you refer obtained not only in western Kosovo but in
5 much of the Balkans, and yet these kulas were only built in that region.
6 So in that sense it was a fashion, but, yes, there was a very practical
7 purpose behind the fashion in that sense. If you've seen pictures of
8 them you know that they are very imposing buildings, and so only wealthy
9 families would afford them, for starters, but yes they had a practical
11 Q. [In English] That's all for now. Thank you, Mr. Riedlmayer.
12 MR. DJORDJEVIC: It's time for rest, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE PARKER: We will have the first break now and resume at
15 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
16 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
17 MR. DJORDJEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
18 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Riedlmayer, my next question relates to your
19 statement or your testimony given in the Milutinovic case. While you
20 were cross-examined by my colleague Mr. Bakrac, he was particularly
21 interested in the kulas that were demolished by the Albanians but which
22 were owned by the Serbs. Do you know anything about this? Because from
23 your answer given to my colleague Bakrac in the Milutinovic case, I
24 couldn't quite gather what you meant. The reference page is 2704, line
25 10, I'm talking about Kula Kusko [Realtime transcript read in error
1 "Pusko"], Kos
2 demolished by the Albanians and that they were the property of the Serbs?
3 A. These were not kulas that I visited, and therefore I have no
4 information about them. I'm not surprised that such things may have
5 happened, but I have no information.
6 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Just for the record, line 22,
7 instead of Kula "Pusko" it should read Kula "Kusko," with a K.
8 [In English] Then Kos
9 okay. It's okay, Decani.
10 Q. [Interpretation] I'm interested in the following: You mentioned
11 in your report that Gracanica - and that was in the Milosevic case - that
12 the famous Serbian monastery of Gracanica was a large military base.
13 That's on page 2743. Do you have information about some other Orthodox
14 shrines being used for these purposes? I know that you mentioned that at
15 one point the troops, the army troops, were stationed or billeted in the
16 St. Anton monastery, but do you have any accurate information about
17 Islamic shrines being used as the basis for the Kosovo Liberation Army
18 and the Albanian terrorists as the then-Yugoslav authorities used to call
20 A. Okay. I have no information about any use of houses of worship
21 of the Islamic Community as a -- for military purposes. I couldn't
22 obviously observe these during the war. What I did try to observe as we
23 looked at damaged mosques is any signs that the building had been in the
24 middle of some fire-fight. Usually when there is a fire-fight you would
25 expect lots of bullet-holes in the building. And that was not common.
1 More commonly you would see single catastrophic damage, like a large hole
2 blasted in the building.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have
5 Exhibit D004-2675 be called up. And we are going to see this whole
6 document page by page, until the last one.
7 Q. This is the cover page of the book. You can see its title in
9 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now quickly move to
10 page 2. Next page, please.
11 Q. Here you can see that this is a book published by the
12 State Archive of Kosovo, the archive sector of the
13 Kosovo Liberation Army.
14 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Next page, please.
15 Q. You see who was on the editorial board of this book.
16 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Next page, please. Can we
17 please zoom in to the photo along with the captions underneath.
18 Q. Do you recognise this building?
19 A. Yes, it looks like the mosque in Rogovo.
20 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please zoom in only on
21 the textual part.
22 Q. You can see what it says in English and the same reads in French,
23 Serbian, and Albanian. It says that this is a mosque in Rogovo built in
24 the sixteenth century and that in 1998 and 1999 it served as a KLA
25 headquarter. This picture was taken in April 1999.
1 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page,
3 Q. We also see who the publisher is. We don't need to enlarge this.
4 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] And now the last page, please.
5 Q. It is important because we have an ISBN number of the publisher
6 on this page for the purpose of evidence.
7 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] So as soon as we get the
8 picture, I would like you to enlarge this particular line. That's right.
9 Thank you. That would be all.
10 Your Honours, I offer this document to be admitted into evidence.
11 That's the first thing.
12 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
13 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] And secondly, during the
14 examination of Witness Sabri Popaj, while my colleague Aleksandar Popovic
15 was doing the cross-examination, an identical photograph was marked for
16 identification: D315. Now I tender this to be admitted into evidence
17 because we have another confirmation by this witness that this is the
18 mosque in Rogova.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Kravetz.
20 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, I don't think that's sufficient basis
21 for the tendering of this exhibit into evidence, and I believe it had
22 been marked for identification with an earlier witness. But I don't --
23 the witness has not been asked any questions except for one regarding
24 that photograph. And I don't believe it's sufficient for the tendering
25 of the entire document.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Isn't it a photograph that features in the
2 evidence-in-chief of this witness?
3 MS. KRAVETZ: That is correct, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. And on what basis then do you object to it?
5 MS. KRAVETZ: I don't object to the page with the photograph. I
6 understand my learned colleague wants to tender the entire publication,
7 but --
8 JUDGE PARKER: Is it the whole book or the photograph that you
9 are tendering?
10 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you look at the
11 record, I was very accurate. I tendered the entire documentation shown
12 to be admitted through this witness. So far we only had photograph that
13 was marked for identification, and I tender it to be admitted into
14 evidence because I think the conditions for that do exist. So I'm
15 talking about the -- Sabri Popaj's evidence. Therefore, only photograph
16 feature there, but with -- through this witness I would like to tender
17 all these documents including the photograph.
18 JUDGE PARKER: But this witness has not been able to say anything
19 about the document beyond recognising the photograph of the damaged
21 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] That was precisely in dispute,
22 whether this was actually the mosque in Rogovo or not. I do not object
23 to the Chamber ruling on this later, but as far as this testimony is
24 concerned, I tender this whole set of photographs given by the Defence
25 under D004-2675 to be admitted into evidence.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber is of the view, Mr. Djordjevic, that
3 the one page, the photograph of the mosque, could be received if you
4 think it is to serve a purpose of the Defence. It is, of course, a
5 duplication of a photograph that is presently marked for identification
6 and it is, in my recollection, a photograph -- another copy of a
7 photograph that is part of the evidence of the witness in chief. But if
8 you see reason for that photograph that you have shown the witness to be
9 received, we will receive it, but not the whole book.
10 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] There is no point in admitting
11 only the photograph because this same photograph was used in
12 examination-in-chief. It is important for me to admit either everything
13 or nothing at all. Why? Because this was a publication published by the
14 KLA which shows that this mosque was used as the main headquarters of the
15 Kosovo Liberation Army. This is what their publication says. And for
16 that reason I think it is significant for it to be admitted into evidence
17 in its entirety because we maintain that this was the KLA headquarters
18 and this is what the book says.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE PARKER: The answer, I'm afraid, remains as it was,
21 Mr. Djordjevic. The witness has not been able to speak about the book or
22 that caption that you wanted. At some other time you may want to discuss
23 with Ms. Kravetz whether she would agree to it or you may find a witness
24 who's able to identify the book and say something of its authorship and
25 reliability. But this witness has contributed nothing to that in his
1 evidence and knowledge. Therefore, it's -- the only thing that we would
2 admit is the photograph, and as you point out that's of no value because
3 it's already in evidence as part of the evidence of this witness. So
4 the -- nothing will be received as an exhibit.
5 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
6 Actually, we dealt here with six pages from the book and the Defence
7 wanted to offer evidence of the authenticity of this document and it was
8 related to the question that I put to the witness, and that was whether
9 he knows if any sacral buildings of the Islamic Community were used for
10 military purposes as well. Therefore, the point of my putting this
11 document to the witness was precisely that. But I will agree that there
12 are other ways to have this kind of documents admitted into evidence.
13 Thank you, Your Honours. I'm going to proceed now.
14 Q. Mr. Riedlmayer, my next question is the following. In your
15 report you dealt with 607 mosques in Kosovo and Metohija. It seems to me
16 that you mentioned some information bases dating from 1997. First of
17 all, can you tell me how did you acquire this information?
18 A. Okay. I believe the date was slightly earlier than that. I
19 don't have my report in front of me, but it should be easy enough to
20 check. The number of 607 mosques in Kosovo comes from a publication of
21 the Islamic Community of Kosovo, their monthly entitled "Dituria Islame,"
22 that's D-i-t-u-r-i-a I-s-l-a-m-e, it means something like "Islamic
23 knowledge." And it's an illustrated periodical with the usual expected
24 religious content, but it also includes occasional articles about the
25 history of the Islamic Community. And there was an article in it, I
1 believe it was 1993, I'd have to check, that listed the numbers of
2 mosques in Kosovo. 607 was the total number of existent mosques. The
3 number that were in actual use were 463 or close to that. And this was
4 with reference to the conclusion of our report that in excess of a third
5 of all mosques in Kosovo suffered some degree of damage during the war.
6 Q. Thank you. I still don't understand. There's a sentence in your
7 report which literally reads, and it's 2.3, the damage of the Islamic
8 heritage. Paragraph 2 reads as follows:
9 "According to the statistical data published in 1993 ..."
10 What kind of statistical data are you referring to? What's the
11 source of this data?
12 A. I just mentioned the source which was this monthly put out by the
13 Islamic Community of Kosovo, which, as the central coordinating body of
14 the Islamic Community in Kosovo, actually administered these mosques. If
15 they put out figures in their publication, I assume that they have some
16 basis for them.
17 Q. I understand that, but you say:
18 "According to the statistical data published in 1993 ..."
19 It is official government bodies that provide statistical data,
20 not religious communities, that is why I'm asking you about the source.
21 You say 1993 there were six or seven mosques --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please speak slowly when he's
23 giving numbers and figures.
24 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. So I'm asking you again what sort of official statistical data
1 did you acquire dating back from 1993, if you can give me an answer.
2 A. Okay. It is not my understanding that statistical data have to
3 emanate from a government body. In this case the body that actually
4 operates and administers these mosques is the Islamic Community of
5 Kosovo. I think they would have a basis for knowledge of how many
6 mosques there really are under their control on a given date. And if
7 they published that information, I assume that it can be relied upon.
8 Q. You just said that you assumed that one can rely on that. Did
9 you collate this information with some other data and did you personally
10 check the accuracy of the number of the mosques?
11 A. I had no means of doing so.
12 Q. Can you please tell me, did you use any information relating to
13 Roman Catholic places of worship in Kosovo?
14 A. Yes. The Roman Catholic community has a number of publications
15 that deal with the history of the Roman Catholic community in Kosovo.
16 It, however, did not include statistics of this kind. It also did not
17 seem a particularly important figure to pursue, given that the damage to
18 Roman Catholic monuments was relatively limited.
19 Q. Apparently you didn't understand me. I asked you generally about
20 the number of Roman Catholic shrines in Kosovo, not about the damage that
21 they incurred, just the number. First I asked you about the Islamic
22 ones. Now I'm asking you about Roman Catholic churches.
23 A. I don't know the numbers, sir.
24 Q. Did you ever try to find out the number when you talked to
25 Reverend Puka that you mentioned.
1 A. The gentleman was Ambroz Ukaj, and he was parish priest in
2 Djakovica, and I inquired of him about the churches in his area of
3 Djakovica. I had -- I made no inquiries with him about other parts of
4 Kosovo. He did indicate that a number of the churches and villages
5 around Djakovica had been damaged or destroyed during the war, and these
6 are included in my database. I did, at a later point, stop in Prizren
7 where the diocese of Kosovo is -- the Roman Catholic authorities in
8 Kosovo are headquartered, and I asked there for information on damage to
9 churches. I did not ask about the total number of churches.
10 Q. Speaking about St. Anton church in Djakovica, you said that
11 Father Ambroz Ukaj was all the time in Djakovica. You also said in your
12 report that at one point the army vacated or evacuated the monastery and
13 removed all the clergy in order for them to occupy the church for their
14 own purposes. Did you discuss the consequences of the shelling of the
15 nearby barracks that was close to the St. Anton church and how it all
16 affected the church itself?
17 A. Yes. That was the whole purpose of my conversation with him,
18 given that the allegation concerned damage to the church. And I first
19 went and looked at the church and it had had the windows replaced, but
20 otherwise was in an undamaged condition. And I asked him whether there
21 had been any damage to the church. And he said, in fact, the NATO
22 air-strike had not destroyed either the rectory or the church other than
23 blowing out the windows; that the rectory had been used during the war by
24 the Yugoslav Army; and that when he was finally able to take possession
25 of the rectory again near the end of the war that there was damage to the
1 rectory mainly from it being stripped of furniture, computers, and other
2 equipment; and that it had been vandalised. But beyond that, he offered
3 no assessment as to what the effects of the bombing were on that church.
4 Q. Just a brief digression. When you say "vandalised," you
5 mentioned computers and furniture, do you mean that they were looted,
6 that the computers and some of the church furniture were looted?
7 A. What he mentioned to me was that, first of all, the place had
8 been looted; that all the contents basically were missing; that there
9 were graffiti on the walls; and that the place had been smashed up, in
10 his words. That's what.
11 Q. Thank you. In view of the fact that you talked a lot about the
12 damage of Islamic, as you say, cultural monuments, cultural monuments,
13 I'm going to ask you about -- before we go back to the Islamic monuments,
14 what you can tell us about the damage of the Serbian Orthodox heritage.
15 This is the first question that I will put to you, generally.
16 A. Okay. With respect to the Serbian Orthodox heritage, you will
17 note that our report has an entire section devoted to damage to Serbian
18 Orthodox heritage in Kosovo. What we found was that there had been
19 damage to approximately 80 churches in Kosovo. Some of these we visited
20 ourselves. For others we obtained information primarily from the Serbian
21 Orthodox Church authorities with whom we exchanged information and
22 photographs. They used some of ours; we used some of theirs.
23 We further found that the damage to Serbian Orthodox monuments
24 occurred after the end of the war in June, primarily during the three
25 months after the end of hostilities. By the time we arrived in October,
1 attacks had diminished but they sporadically continued. And then, as we
2 all know, in 2004 there were massive riots and some 30 further churches
3 were vandalised or destroyed.
4 Q. This last thing you're thinking of the events of the
5 17th of March, 1994, I assume, in Kosovo --
6 A. 2004.
7 Q. 2004. Thank you.
8 Can you please tell me how many locations of the Serbian Orthodox
9 Church you toured during your first visit to Kosovo?
10 A. I don't have the number at my finger tips, but I believe it's
11 mentioned in my report; if it's not, it should be easy enough to look up.
12 We probably visited about a dozen in all. We kept the number fairly low
13 because we already had access to documentation about destruction which
14 the Serbian Orthodox Church had publicised, both on its web site and in
15 an illustrated publication called "Raspeto Kosovo," Crucified Kosovo.
16 Subsequent to that, a second augmented edition of the book came
17 out the following year, and we also used that as well as other
18 photographs that we obtained through correspondence with
19 Father Sava Janjic. We did visit all of the churches concerning which
20 there had been allegations about damage during the war, and we did visit
21 all the main sites, such as the ones you mentioned earlier with reference
22 to the World Heritage Sites to determine their condition. The places we
23 did not visit were places that were more difficult to access since our
24 time was limited and the roads were bad. So, for example, we did not
25 visit the Orthodox monastery church at Musitiste, which is not far from
1 Prizren but is down a very bad road and it would have taken us an extra
2 day because there were more than half a dozen photographs of it already
3 published on the Serbian Orthodox Church web site.
4 Q. Can you please tell me if you visited or looked at the Serbian
5 cemeteries around the large Kosovo cities, Pristina, Pec, Djakovica, or
6 any other towns in Kosovo?
7 A. As you will note, Your Honours, in the report in the introductory
8 part we mention that we specifically excluded cemeteries and
9 archaeological sites from our visit simply because, A, it would have
10 added significantly to the time required; and B, because it would have
11 been next to impossible to get comparative documentation as to what a
12 cemetery might have looked like a year before the war and what it looked
13 like after the war. So it was not part of our official survey. However,
14 since you asked, yes, I did see some vandalised cemeteries.
15 Q. Well, yes, can you please be more precise, Serbian population,
16 Albanian, Catholic, Roman Catholic, some other?
17 A. I saw damage to cemeteries, both Serbian Orthodox and Muslim
18 cemeteries. Since your question referred to Serbian Orthodox cemeteries,
19 I saw damaged cemeteries near Mitrovica on my visit in 2001, that was the
20 Serbian Orthodox cemetery on the southern edge of the town Mitrovica,
21 gravestones had been overturned and it looked very thoroughly destroyed.
22 There were others in western Kosovo where there were damaged
23 Serbian Orthodox churches with cemeteries next to them with gravestones
24 that had been attacked.
25 Q. Can you please tell me, you visited 144 places in total. In
1 those or out of those 144 places roughly, how many places were places of
2 Islamic cultural heritage? We heard that there were about ten about --
3 related to the Serbian cultural heritage. I don't know if you refer to
4 any numbers regarding the Roman Catholic, and how many then out of those
5 would be related to the Islamic cultural heritage?
6 A. Okay. First of all, correction, it was more than ten. I would
7 say probably about 15. I said earlier a dozen, so -- but that's about
8 the order of magnitude, about 10 per cent of the places we visited. In
9 terms of the rest, I don't have the exact statistical breakdown. It may
10 be mentioned in our report. It was ten years ago, so I don't have the
11 figures in my head, although I once did. That includes not only Islamic
12 but also historic residential architecture, general cultural institutions
13 such as museums and libraries and so forth. So it's not that the
14 remaining 90 per cent is all Islamic. It also, of course, includes the
15 Catholic churches, of which I think we visited maybe half a dozen.
16 Q. Does that mean that you visited about 120 monuments of Islamic
17 architecture or cultural heritage, as you put it?
18 A. That seems like an order of magnitude that's roughly correct.
19 Taken in a very broad sense, so that includes things like not just
20 mosques but Islamic schools, libraries, archives.
21 Q. Thank you. My next question relates to -- I mentioned one name.
22 You said you never heard of that name in the context of your report and
23 you were right. I apologise because of that. It is actually a person by
24 the name of --
25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand what the
1 counsel said.
2 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. -- and in your report in appendix 3 where you talk about
4 allegations of the destruction of cultural heritage in Kosovo from
5 1998 to 1999, especially in relation to the -- those reported by Yugoslav
6 cultural and other institutions, you said:
7 "The presentation of the Yugoslav government reproduced by many
8 international experts on cultural heritage without trying independently
9 to check these claims the same allegations of the Yugoslav government
10 by -- of damage inflicted on cultural monuments" --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please slow down.
12 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [No interpretation]
13 Q. [Interpretation] I see that there was a problem, that what I was
14 doing seems to me I was doing too fast. So I'm going to repeat again:
15 A presentation of the Yugoslav government. Then they
16 reproduced -- which were reproduced by many international experts for the
17 cultural heritage without an attempt to independently confirm these
18 allegations. Those same allegations of the Yugoslav government about the
19 damage inflicted on the cultural heritage were repeated also in the
20 memorandum which the Prosecutor's Office of the
21 International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia submitted -- or
22 submitted to the Tribunal by Professor Mitchel [sic] and others about the
23 alleged violations of international law by the governments and the
24 officials of the NATO countries.
25 First of all, do you know who Professor Mandel is? Secondly,
1 what is being disputed in reference to these allegations? I know that
2 you dealt with so-called false reports by the Yugoslav authorities on
3 cultural monuments, but I would just like you to clarify what you said in
4 your report.
5 A. Okay. With reference to Professor -- it's not Mitchel,
6 Michael Mandel, he is a professor of law at Osgoode Law School
7 and he took it upon -- Osgoode, that's O-s-g-o-o-d-e, hall, okay. He
8 took it upon himself to organise an informal tribunal held in New York
9 This informal tribunal was to judge war crimes allegedly committed by
10 NATO in its war against Yugoslavia
11 that as part of its conclusions, this ad hoc tribunal accepted in its
12 whole the allegations that were published in the Yugoslav government
13 White Book. And once it reached its conclusions, it forwarded them to
14 the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. I don't
15 know what, if any, follow-up there was thereafter. But the ad hoc
16 tribunal had no official standing of any sort, and it seemed to be
17 convened for certain purposes of the participants, not by any official
19 Q. Thank you. My next question: You wrote in your report that
20 there were about 210 Serbian Orthodox churches in Kosovo. Is this,
21 roughly speaking, the number that you would agree with?
22 A. The 210 was the figure that was mentioned in the publication of
23 the Republican Institute for the Protection of Monuments as being
24 architecturally significant, culturally significant Orthodox sites in
25 Kosovo. Obviously that does not include any number of village churches
1 of recent vintage. That would not have made it into a publication of the
2 Institute for the Protection of Monuments.
3 Q. Thank you for this answer. You have clarified a lot with this
4 answer. Are you familiar with the actual number of Orthodox places of
5 worship in Kosovo, not just those of cultural, religious, or any other
6 kind of special value, but just any church? Do you know or did you get
7 from the patriarchate of the Serbian Orthodox Church, i.e.,
8 Father Sava Janjic, the correct total number of Serbian Orthodox churches
9 in Kosovo and did you receive such information? Were you interested in
10 this type of information at all, first of all?
11 A. I was interested -- I'm sorry. I should slow down. I was
12 interested in the information, but I was not able to obtain a clear
13 figure. The problem is that in all of the official publications of the
14 Yugoslav heritage authorities and of the Serbian Orthodox Church, there
15 is no distinction made in the compilations between churches that are
16 active, functioning places of worship, and churches that may be only
17 foundations or mentioned in medieval chronicles and no longer existent at
19 If one includes all of the churches that ever existed in Kosovo;
20 for example, there was a book edited by Gojko Subotic called something
21 like, "Kosovo: The Sacred Land," he lists over a thousand places, but
22 many of these are archaeological sites or merely churches that once
23 existed of which no trace remains above ground. So I had great
24 difficulty in nailing down the figure.
25 As far as my communications with Father Sava were concerned,
1 Father Sava was famous for being the cyber monk. He was the only
2 Orthodox church official in Kosovo to have access to the internet at this
3 crucial period. And it was very difficult to get through to him. So our
4 exchanges with him were largely confined to things like exchanging
5 pictures. Later on, when internet communication improved, the
6 communications had to do with reconstruction projects. And so I did not
7 further pursue the question of statistics. The statistics on the
8 Islamic Community were included largely because they were available.
9 Q. Well, I hope I will be forgiven if I call the Serbian Orthodox
10 Church Eparchy by its wrong name, but I think it's called the
11 Raska Prizrenska Eparchy. Any way, what you -- I believe that they have
12 detailed information about the Orthodox places of worship and shrines in
13 the area of Kosovo and Metohija. So, again, I'm asking you if you
14 requested such information from the Raska Prizrenska Eparchy.
15 A. Our focus was not on conducting a census of churches, but on
16 determining what had been damaged. And I think in that our figures match
17 very closely what the Orthodox Eparchy of Raska and Prizren has itself
18 published concerning damage to its properties.
19 Q. I don't know if you were aware of the problem that all localities
20 of the Serbian Orthodox Church were ghettos that were forbidden. Not
21 even the faithful could go there during the war or immediately after the
22 war or move there safely. Do you have information about that? This also
23 means that the Orthodox priests could not have precise information about
24 the damage inflicted on the property of the Serbian Orthodox Church. I
25 don't know if you are informed about this, Mr. Riedlmayer.
1 A. Actually, we followed up on these contacts with the Orthodox
2 church ourselves; and by the time we submitted our report in the summer
3 of 2001, there were no more surprises about what had or had not been
4 damaged in Kosovo, although security conditions especially in the first
5 year or two after the war were difficult. I know for a fact that
6 Father Sava travelled with KFOR military escort to virtually every place
7 in Kosovo that had or once had a Serb population. And so every time new
8 information emerged, it was posted on his web site and we would add it to
9 our report. I'm not aware that in the intervening years there have been
10 any more revelations about things that were damaged in 1999 that we did
11 not know about.
12 Q. That is unusual, strange, because you mentioned on several
13 occasion false reporting by the Yugoslav authorities about damage
14 inflicted to a property of the Serbian Orthodox Church in Kosovo. So it
15 seems strange that you did not yourself personally try to check
16 information, even the information that was not accessible, about the
17 status of Serbian Orthodox monuments in Kosovo because the number of
18 protected churches, 210, represents one-third of all the total number of
19 mosques, those of cultural significance, smaller, minor cultural
21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not quite sure what the
22 counsel is saying.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djordjevic, you're reading far too quickly and
24 it's -- the interpreter is having to indicate that they cannot follow
1 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I am going to apologise. I was
2 not reading, I was speaking, so -- but it was a little bit fast. And I
4 Q. The number of churches --
5 JUDGE PARKER: Do you notice at all the transcript of what you
6 describe as your questions? These are relatively short on the current
7 page and they go for seven, eight, nine, ten lines, the short ones.
8 You're having more of a debate than a question-and-answer session, I
9 suspect. If you could try short questions, short propositions, the
10 interpreters would find it easier and the witness may be able to answer
11 more directly.
12 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'm
13 going to try to do my best.
14 Q. My question is: Why did the witness pay attention to of all the
15 other cultural monuments in Kosovo, 80 per cent of the monuments of
16 Islamic culture, and another percentage of the Roman Catholic monuments;
17 but the real situation on the ground is not like that. The real
18 situation is that there are a greater number of Christian places of
19 worship in Kosovo and Metohija than generally Serbian -- or Muslim ones.
20 And so why did he pay more attention to the Islamic monuments and only,
21 let's say, 20 per cent of the Christian monuments is the reason for that,
22 his interest in the Islamic culture. And is that something that the
23 witness can agree with me and is that something that is in his report?
24 A. In answer to your question, our focus on what had been destroyed
25 in the war and in its immediate aftermath. To that extent we believe
1 that our report is substantially complete. It covers all the sites,
2 regardless of its ethnic or religious background that were reported to
3 have been damaged during the war. It includes information not only from
4 our personal site visits, but based on documentation from all sources
5 that we considered reliable, whether it was the religious communities,
6 the EU/IMG
7 I don't think it is fair to suppose that there should be, you
8 know, some sort of question of pre-determined proportions. We were not
9 going down a list of churches or mosques and checking off which ones were
10 damaged and which ones were not. Our focus was in following up
11 allegations. And it is, I think, a reasonable supposition, given that
12 there are so many interested parties involved, the communities who had
13 the care of these buildings, that any damage that did occur would have
14 produced an allegation. I hope that answers your question.
15 Finally, with regard to the Yugoslav government allegations, we
16 did, in fact, follow-up every single allegation in the Yugoslav
17 government White Book by actually visiting those sites.
18 Q. I have to admit that I'm not fully satisfied with your answer,
19 but at the end I have to conclude, and you will agree with me hopefully,
20 that your job was, in fact, to verify the allegations of, as you call
21 them, interested parties relating to the accusations that their property
22 suffered damage; and that your mission was not intended to provide an
23 objective picture of the totality of the damage to the cultural heritage
24 in Kosovo, irrespective of any reports, either official or unofficial.
25 Would you agree with me on that?
1 A. I would not. We did, in fact, make a good-faith effort to verify
2 reports. First of all, by doing percentage check of places on which
3 documentation had been provided, and also by compiling a list of places
4 for which there were allegations and then checking them against our own
5 observations. We found no sites for which the religious communities in
6 particular had claimed damage where there was no damage. Often the
7 degree of damage was exaggerated or imperfectly stated. But when the
8 Islamic Community or the Orthodox community claimed that the site had
9 been damaged, it usually was -- in fact, it always was.
10 Now, as to corroborating allegations, we did not include in our
11 report any allegations for which there was not corroborating evidence in
12 the form of photographs and by independent other sources which confirmed
13 the allegation.
14 So it was not merely a question of compiling various accusations,
15 it was a good-faith effort to determine to the best of our limited
16 abilities what the situation on the ground was. If you are aware of
17 significant destruction that we missed, I would be very interested in
18 knowing about that.
19 Q. As I understand you, you and Mr. Herscher started your job
20 immediately upon receiving information that huge damage was inflicted on
21 the cultural heritage in Kosovo, and as an expert you felt it your duty
22 to react. After all this vandalism and devastation and razing to the
23 ground of many Serbian monasteries relating to the events of the
24 17th of April, 2004, did you feel that your duty was to inform the world
25 public about what had happened to this particular segment of the cultural
1 heritage of Kosovo?
2 A. If you will check the updated copy of my resume, you will see
3 that I collaborated with Cultural Heritage Without Borders in their
4 report on the damage to Serbian Orthodox heritage in the March 2004
5 riots. So I had the interest, but I didn't have the funding to go out
6 and start a new field research. Besides, there were other parties
7 already engaged in that. The reason for undertaking our 1999 survey was
8 precisely the information that it seemed like there was no one else
9 trying to do that kind of work at that time.
10 Q. I wouldn't agree, but as His Honour Judge Parker said, it is not
11 my place to debate these issues with you.
12 Can you tell me, please, did you verify the facts stated by
13 Mr. Bajgora, the then-deputy of the mufti of the Islamic Community in
14 Kosovo relating to the book referred to in your report entitled: Serbian
15 Barbaric Acts Against the Albanian Heritage in Kosovo? Did you address
16 this particular issue?
17 A. I'm familiar with the book. I have seen it. The photos
18 published in the book are all photos that I already had, so our report is
19 not based on that report -- on that book. Other than that, I cannot
20 really characterise the text part of the book. I did not read it very
21 carefully. It seemed in the same general tone as the publications of the
22 Serbian Orthodox Church complaining about the ways in which it felt
23 itself to have been victimised.
24 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me, please, Mr. Feiz Drancoli [phoen],
25 he was the director of the Institute for the Protection of Cultural
1 Monuments of Kosovo and you had a working relationship with him, didn't
2 you? I don't know his last name, whether it's Trancoli or Drancoli, but
3 first name Feiz.
4 A. It's Drancoli.
5 Q. You say that you visited with him Junik and Rogovo; is that
7 A. Actually, he came with us on one of the days that we went out on
8 the tour, and we visited a large number of sites in Pec, in Drsnik,
9 Gjakova, Junik, Rogovo, a number of places -- no, wait a minute, I'm not
10 sure he was with us in Rogovo, but in western Kosovo anyway. And his
11 function largely was to act as a guide. Some of these places like
12 Nivokaz, which I just mentioned, are on unmarked roads and would have
13 been hard for us to find. He was familiar with the sites. He would show
14 us where things were. He had no input on our assessments.
15 Q. Since you were dealing with the consequences but at the same time
16 with the causes of damage, when you visited Junik and Rogovo did you hear
17 from any witness that the KLA headquarters used to be there?
18 A. I did not hear any such information. In the case of Junik, of
19 course, it's well-known from news reports that this was the case.
20 Q. My question refers particularly to the witnesses that you've
21 spoken to, but thank you anyway for this answer. You said that the
22 Institute for the Protection of Culture and Monuments of Kosovo lost its
23 archive because in 1999, during the withdrawal of the army and the police
24 of Yugoslavia
25 entire archive of the Institute for the Protection of Culture and
1 Monuments was transferred to Serbia
2 with this?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you tell me, please, in view of the nature of your job and
5 your interest in Kosovo, did you visit Serbia to review the archive of
6 the Institute for the Protection of Culture and Monuments of Kosovo?
7 A. I did not.
8 Q. Thank you. The next set of my questions will refer to a couple
9 of things that we discussed yesterday, primarily the part that relates to
10 the questions put to you by His Honour Judge Parker, namely, this was
11 about the photographs that you provided the OTP from the allegedly known
12 sources immediately before this trial began and this was in July. I'm
13 talking about specifically the mosque in Cirez. Did you ever visit this
14 mosque yourself? Let us be very accurate and specific. Did you see it
15 with your own eyes?
16 A. We drove by it on a return to Pristina from a day's surveying.
17 It was late, it was dark, and we did not stop. I did not include it
18 among the sites personally visited because I did not stop to make a
19 survey, but I know where it is.
20 Q. Of course you know where it is, that's understandable, but you
21 said that it was dark while you were passing by the mosque. Were you
22 able to see the mosque in the dark, or were you not able to see it at
24 A. I saw it from the road. It's visible from the road, but I did
25 not stop to make a survey, in part because there was no possibility of
1 making photographs. As you will see, however, there are -- the
2 photographs I have are from multiple sources, including the EU/IMG
3 survey. They have a photograph as well.
4 Q. That's what you already explained and I'm not going to ask you
5 any further questions about this; however, from the photographs that we
6 have seen - and I don't think it's necessary for us to see them again,
7 it's already admitted into evidence, it's P0133. We all perfectly well
8 remember these photographs we saw yesterday. Quite simply, when you look
9 at these three domes and this large arch, I have no way of comparing them
10 with the previously early -- existing mosque in Cirez. In other words, I
11 was not even able to find any locations that would give me some
12 bench-marks indicating that we are talking about the same site. I don't
13 know if you went into this problem at any length, and if you have nothing
14 to say about this it's okay. I'm not going to press the matter.
15 A. Well, since you brought it up, I was interested enough after
16 yesterday's event to take another look at the photographs. And if they
17 could be shown on the monitor I could point out something that I noticed
18 on a second look.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djordjevic, are you wanting that to be done
20 now or are you watching time very closely?
21 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I am watching the time, and
22 perhaps it would be better that we deal with this after the break because
23 this is a separate subject that I have for this witness and I'm
24 definitely going to finalise my cross-examination today. Maybe we can
25 take a break earlier and then finish earlier, before we move to a new
2 JUDGE PARKER: Very well.
3 We will have a break now and resume in half an hour at ten
4 minutes to 1.00. And it may be possible, Mr. Djordjevic, if you
5 coordinate with the Court Officer to ensure and the right exhibits are
6 ready to be displayed.
7 We'll have a further break now, Mr. Riedlmayer, and resume in
8 half an hour's time.
9 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
10 JUDGE PARKER: And that final session should be the end of your
12 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
13 --- Recess taken at 12.18 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 12.50 p.m.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djordjevic.
16 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Can we, please, now have on our screens an exhibit that is
18 already in evidence, that's P01132 MFI
19 photographs on pages 2 and 3, and if we can have them juxtaposed on the
20 screen together -- actually, only the upper photograph, not the lower
22 If I understand correctly, this is being done at the request of
23 Mr. Riedlmayer because he wanted to provide some additional information
24 if I'm not wrong.
25 THE WITNESS: That is correct.
1 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. And I believe that this is what you actually wanted to see, I
4 A. These are the photographs I wanted because I was not satisfied
5 with the photographs that I already had; they didn't show the building
6 from comparable angles. This one is comparable. Would you like me to
7 comment on it?
8 What I noticed, Your Honours, is, as you may recall yesterday
9 there was a question of how a mosque with a ground floor and an upper
10 floor suddenly is reduced to only the arcade with the back missing and
11 the three domes resting atop the arcade. And the question was: Is this
12 a different mosque? And my surmise was that the arcade had simply
13 collapsed, I mean -- I'm sorry, the storey on top of the arcade has
14 simply collapsed from the blast.
15 What I noticed upon examining these photos again last night in my
16 room is something that I failed to point out yesterday. Namely, if you
17 look at the left-hand photo which is a relatively recent photo and look
18 carefully under the left-hand small dome you can see a bit of the sky.
19 And I don't know if it's possible to zoom in at all, but I could see the
20 contrast both by zooming in. And by darkening the photo, you can see
21 that that is not an element of the building under the dome that is
22 actually a bit of the sky.
23 And what you can also see is, in front of the three domes that
24 are in a very unusual uncharacteristic pattern of the front dome -- of
25 the central dome being in front of the two sides domes, there are
1 remnants of two supporting columns. And if you look at the two -- in the
2 pre-war photo in the same positions you can see the concrete columns that
3 support the roof and the second storey right above the central arcade.
4 And I believe those are the stubs.
5 So my explanation for this photo is -- I mean, for the damage is
6 that a rather large blast levelled the main prayer hall of the mosque,
7 the space under the large dome, and in the process also blew out the
8 superstructure, the upper storey above the arcade. And that the three
9 small domes which is are prefabricated simply landed on the vacated
11 For this it's also useful to understand what the structure is
12 made of. Basically it's a concrete skeleton and the red material is very
13 light, hollow brick. So that would very easily be affected by such a
15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that.
16 Is there more you wish to ask, Mr. Djordjevic?
17 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] First of all, can we reduce the
18 left-hand photograph to its original size. Thank you.
19 Q. Can you tell me, this photograph taken before the war of this
20 mosque and the photograph on the left, do you know the exact dates when
21 these pictures were taken? That's my first question.
22 A. Yes, Mr. Djordjevic, I do know them. The photograph on the right
23 was taken during the Bajram in 1998, that is April of 1998. In the
24 photograph below it you can actually see the overflow congregation in
25 front of the mosque performing the holiday prayer. The photograph on the
1 left was taken in July, this year, by Mr. Hamiti when he took the trip
2 from Pristina to Cirez.
3 Q. And the other one was taken in 2000 and?
4 A. The other one, the pre-war picture, was taken in 1998. And the
5 post-war picture is from 2009.
6 Q. 2009. Thank you. All I can see in this photograph is that the
7 overhead power line run in a totally different direction compared to the
8 pre-war one, but let's go back to the first photograph. So let's keep
9 the photograph on the left taken in 2009 and instead of the one which is
10 actually number 2 can we have photograph number 1 from the same exhibit,
11 please. Thank you.
12 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask you to zoom
13 in the central part of photograph number 1 where you can see two open
14 windows which actually look onto a house and there is a car there too.
15 So a little more to the right, please.
16 Q. In this photograph we can see a building relatively close to this
17 building that we're looking at.
18 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Can you please zoom out now to
19 have the photograph back to its original size. We can also see a kind of
20 vehicle there as well.
21 Q. If we were to accept that this was the same building, it could
22 have been photographed, if we look at the left-hand side from the
23 direction of the smaller electrical pole that we see. This is what it
24 seems to look like. However, closer where we see this bigger electrical
25 pole, we don't see the house that we were able to see through the
1 openings in this other photograph, it's missing, although it was a new
2 house. We can see that it has a roof and everything. So this also is
3 something that throws some doubt on exactly what happened.
4 I noticed that the domes are absolutely undamaged on the left
5 photograph in comparison to the photograph on the right. There is also
6 an arch here which we did not see on any of the photographs that were
7 showing the mosque. So can you please comment on this.
8 A. Gladly. First of all, note that the photograph on the left was
9 taken ten years after the photograph on the right. The photograph on the
10 right was taken in the summer of 1999. Secondly, you will note that the
11 alignment of the three domes matches your surmise, namely, that the view
12 is from the rear of the building, from the distant power pole because the
13 central dome is forward of the two side domes.
14 What you will also note is that in the very recent photo the
15 concrete domes are absolutely bare. The metal cladding has been taken
16 off. It's essentially aluminum sheeting. And what is damaged in the
17 photo at right is the aluminum sheeting which has been removed. As you
18 noted when you zoomed in there were a lot of loose hollow bricks. You
19 will note that in the post-war photo of 2009 all the hollow bricks have
20 been cleared away, presumably because they were reusable.
21 So my only explanation for the missing building and missing car
22 is that both the car and the building have left the scene in the last ten
23 years. I also have other photos which I did not bring into court because
24 they were somewhat duplicative, but showing the same scene from a broader
25 angle. A new mosque has been rebuilt to the left of the ruined one, with
1 the ruins left intact. And so there have been some alterations to the
2 scene; in a ten-year period that is not unusual. The house that you see
3 looks like a very odd building, and it's -- although it has a roof, it
4 seems to be missing its windows. So I assume that like the hollow bricks
5 from the ruined mosque, it too was carted away. That's the only thing.
6 Now, as to the arch-like structure. It is in my view actually
7 present in the 2009 picture. If you look carefully under the left-hand
8 dome you can see some trace of it. What it is it's not an arch; it's
9 essentially a stiff structure, something like metal or tar paper. If you
10 still have the other photos from -- the ones from my database that were
11 exhibited, they show it very clearly hanging from the side in that
12 picture we had yesterday, the one that viewed the building from the side.
13 What it was is the internal section of the roof that supported the large
14 dome of the mosque. It's now been cut in half and it's hanging down.
15 But the fact that you can see the sky underneath the dome on the
16 left, in the 2009 picture, to me indicates that that dome is not in its
17 original position, that it is very plausible that its support has been
18 knocked out and it simply landed that way.
19 Q. This is all at the level of an assumption, and we can all agree
20 with that. However, this photograph that was taken immediately after the
21 destruction of the mosque where we see the damaged domes, a vast majority
22 of material that should still be there from the part that had fallen
23 through should in any case be visible on the ground. However, the parts
24 that we see are mainly parts of the armature. They're not the hollow
25 bricks. There's simply a lot of material that is missing which we should
1 be able to see as the photograph was taken shortly after the mosque was
2 destroyed in 1999. Can you please deal a little bit more with this
4 A. Yes. What we're looking at is the interior of the entrance
5 facade which would have been relatively shielded. It still has the roof
6 of the first -- of the ground floor on it. If you look at the -- I don't
7 know if we can get those exhibits back, but the two pictures that were in
8 my database --
9 JUDGE PARKER: I believe they're coming up now.
10 THE WITNESS: All right. The photograph you see on top there - I
11 don't know if it's possible to zoom in - okay the photograph you see on
12 top, it is my contention that was taken from the right side of the
13 mosque. So if you were facing the mosque directly towards the entrance,
14 it would be the right side of the building. And so what I believe you
15 are seeing here is that red stiff structure is the base of the dome
16 that's hanging down and looking like an arch in the other picture which
17 was taken from the right-hand side, from where you see that rubble.
18 And so there is plenty of rubble to be seen, but the main part of
19 the mosque that collapsed was the part to the right of the little dome
20 and that's where you would expect to see the rubble. There is also
21 rubble in front of the mosque which I believe may be that second storey
22 that was blown out when the mosque was destroyed. Of the three domes,
23 all you can see is the profile of the far right one because it is taken
24 directly from the right-hand side. You can see behind it perhaps --
25 no -- well, what you can see on top of it is a little bit of that
1 peeled-away aluminum sheeting.
2 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask you to zoom
3 in on the top photograph only, please. Thank you.
4 Q. On this photograph we see one dome with some damage on it. We
5 can see that it is covered with aluminum. However, I cannot say or agree
6 that the other two domes are visible. In view of the configuration that
7 they were in, at least one of them would be in -- would be visible. They
8 were asymmetrical. One of them was in front and the two were behind. So
9 this photograph actually creates even more doubt in my mind as to the
10 authenticity of the material you provided.
11 And also, the fact is that none of these red walls is visible on
12 any of the photographs, especially not from these construction materials.
13 And the photographs were taken approximately around the same time in
14 1999, after they were destroyed. So I don't even see the arches here. I
15 don't see any part of the concrete construction. And the details that we
16 see on the other photographs were exclusively made out of cement. They
17 do have some brickwork and tiles on the roof, but this creates a problem
18 for me.
19 We see a woods -- wood behind the building. We see a large tree
20 to the right. We see the power transmission lines, how they lie. So, I
21 mean, really, if you have any other comments I would like to hear it, but
22 I have not managed to convince myself that it is actually exactly that
23 same building.
24 A. Okay. Well, I'm sorry for the bad resolution on this. Because
25 it's in the database, it had to be kept low. But you can, if you look
1 very carefully, see another dome to the right of the one, just the lower
2 part of it. And the reason you don't see the middle dome, at least not
3 obviously here, is because the photograph is not directly level with the
4 domes but slightly from the rear of the building. So what you see is the
5 two rear domes, the two flanking domes, one very clearly with the
6 peeled-up metal sheeting and the other one behind it.
7 Now, as for the red, the red is the tar paper roof basically.
8 And you see it in the black-and-white photograph not from the side but
9 from the rear of the building, and the reason it looks like an arch is
10 because it had a big circle cut out for it for the main dome. And here
11 you can see it collapsed. You can see other parts of it lying on the
12 ground. But the part that is attached to the partially intact part of
13 the building is hanging down, which is why it forms an arch in the
14 black-and-white photo. I think there is plenty of construction material
15 to be seen here, and the concrete elements you refer to are the same ones
16 you can see in the pre-war photos.
17 The window at the left and -- is the window at the side of the
18 front arcade, which is also visible in the post-war photo. The reason
19 you cannot see the woods in the distance in any of the pre-war photos is
20 none of the pre-war photos were from this angle. The people praying were
21 on the other side of the mosque and then the only other angles we had is
22 a view directly towards the entrance and a view from the rear towards the
23 entrance. So you never had this angle before.
24 JUDGE PARKER: I suspect that we have exhausted what can be said
25 and viewed about this. Thank you both. And we will consider --
1 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] You are right, Your Honour. You
2 are correct. The house is missing here which could be seen before. A
3 lot of that is still in doubt. But anyway, I will continue with my
4 questions, and I will bring my cross-examination slowly to an end.
5 Q. I would be interested in the following: Do you have the
6 statistical data regarding the mosques that were presented to you by the
7 Prosecutor and which you also discussed in your report, do you have
8 records of how many places in a municipality you visited? This is how
9 I'm going to put this question to you. I'm not going to ask you about it
10 in another way.
11 A. I don't have a statistical breakdown by municipality, but with
12 the use of my database it would be very easy to establish. But it would
13 take a bit of time. I'm not sure what the -- what you are trying to find
14 out here.
15 Q. Actually, I'm not trying, but I would wish to find out how many
16 places you interpreted the data from without actually visiting these
17 places, where you reached your conclusions on the basis of photographs.
18 Because we are talking about a mosque which could be of a later date, if
19 it is the same mosque at all.
20 Anyway, the question has to do with the overall report of yours.
21 I would like you just to tell us, out of these 144 locations that are
22 covered in your report, how many of those locations did you actually
23 visit; or, if you prefer, how many of those locations did you actually
24 not visit?
25 A. Okay. The 144 locations that you mention are the locations we
1 actually visited. The report covers a great many more places than that.
2 So we visited 144 of the sites that are documented in the report. If you
3 wish, I can point out on a map of Kosovo where we went, but basically we
4 covered the larger part of the area of Kosovo, the places where we did
5 not go tended to be places far from the main highways and where
6 communications were difficult. We also didn't go to the far northern end
7 of Kosovo, to Leposavic, because there had been no allegations of damage
8 to cultural property up there. So Mitrovica is as far north as we went.
9 But we went to south-east Kosovo, to west Kosovo, central Kosovo, the
10 north, Prizren. We covered a lot of area. For places that we did not
11 visit, we relied on photographs, as you say.
12 Q. Thank you. But that was not my question. You already talked
13 about the things that you -- the locations that you visited in your
14 report, so evidently I cannot get the answer to the question that I am
16 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Anyway, I would like to see
17 P0111 [as interpreted], that exhibit on the screen, please.
18 Q. You will see this is the white mosque in Suva Reka.
19 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I see in the transcript that it
20 is -- in the transcript there are only three 1s, one 1 is missing, there
21 should be four 1s.
22 Can we look at this top photograph. I think that is the mosque
23 that we are interested in. Very well.
24 Q. Yesterday you talked about it so I'm not going to dwell on what
25 you talked about. Can you please tell me, the source of information as
1 to the manner of the damage of this mosque is just the report from the
2 people you received on the ground, the people from the Islamic Community,
3 or are there any other reports about the damage that you looked at in the
4 case of this particular mosque?
5 A. Well, the manner of the damage is something we determined through
6 first-hand inspection. As I explained in direct examination, we went
7 inside the mosque, outside the mosque, looked at the type of damage to
8 the minaret, and concluded from that how the minaret was damaged, namely,
9 an explosion was set off inside the minaret. And the rest of the damage
10 can largely be explained by the falling of the minaret.
11 Q. Were you aware of allegations of the Yugoslav authorities that
12 NATO bombed the OUP Suva Reka and that one bomb fell in the immediate
13 vicinity of this mosque and that it was damaged by it? Did you find out
14 about this? Just answer briefly.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You didn't comment on this yesterday.
17 A. Well, I -- I remember that there was such a thing in the
18 White Book because we did the entire section of the two White Books
19 published by the Yugoslav authorities that dealt with cultural property.
20 What we did note is that the kind of damage seen here is not consistent
21 with the mosque having been hit by any projectile from the outside. The
22 blast came from the inside.
23 Q. You've told us that you didn't have any technical knowledge and
24 that you are making some conclusions on the basis of common sense, and
25 that in some cases this was the only criteria for your assessments and
1 evaluation. Did you engage any experts, technical experts, to help you
2 to assess the damage of this mosque?
3 A. We did no technical testing. However, as I showed in the direct
4 examination, the pattern of damage to the mosque was such that even
5 without technical testing you could tell that the base of the minaret had
6 ballooned outwards and that elements of it were sticking out by 10, 20,
7 30 centimetres. And consider that we have a pre-war photo on this same
8 page of the minaret taken from the side and -- I cannot imagine a
9 scenario - and I admit I'm not a military expert - where munitions would
10 travel through the minaret to the base before setting off this huge blast
11 which blew apart the minaret's base. It just doesn't seem to make sense
12 to me.
13 I've seen in the process of my report on Kosovo but also in
14 subsequent reports in Bosnia
15 been damaged by various means. And I would still say in retrospect, with
16 the knowledge that I now have, the same thing, that this minaret was
17 blown up from within and not the result of some projectile hitting it.
18 Beyond that, all you have is the informant reports which we have
19 discussed already. So I see no need to repeat them.
20 Q. I think that you allowed yourself to deal with something that you
21 should not have really been dealing with because you are not an expert,
22 but let us quickly move to the following topic and then after that to the
23 last topic, after which I'm going to complete my cross-examination.
24 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to look on the --
25 see on the screen something that has already been admitted into evidence,
1 and this is P01109. Can we zoom in on this photograph, please. Can we
2 please zoom in on the top part of the photograph. Thank you.
3 Q. This is, you would agree with me, the library of the
4 Hadum mosque, the Sulejman Efendi Hadum mosque?
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. There was some talk about it being damaged in a fire just like
7 the rest of the old city centre around it and close to it, but we can see
8 that the walls are completely white towards the floor and that the
9 building is halved practically. So it does not seem to me that there was
10 a fire here. What did you say yesterday relating to the reasons and the
11 causes of damage of this library?
12 A. Okay. Consider that the library is a building composed mostly of
13 masonry. The wooden elements were relatively small. They consisted of
14 the floor which supported the upper story which you see here. It's the
15 upper storey that had the book niches and windows. You cannot see it
16 very well on this photo, but you can see, if you look carefully, a dark
17 line at the bottom of the place where the floor was. What that was was
18 charred wooden elements of the floor still sticking out from the wall.
19 You can also see at the left-hand wall a niche. These were the niches
20 that held the book-shelves, and once again there are charred book-shelves
21 in there.
22 If the library, as is alleged from various accounts and as also
23 we can see from that aerial photo that I showed -- that I commented on
24 during the direct examination, if the library was burned in March and
25 then the library cut in half by the falling minaret in May, this whole
1 interior would have been exposed to the elements for a period of
2 approximately five months after the minaret fell on it.
3 Now, I know for a fact that the minaret did fall on it, A,
4 because I observed pieces of the minaret, identifiable as such, in the
5 rubble when I first personally inspected the building in October of 1999,
6 but also, since as you know, I and Mr. Herscher were involved in the
7 post-war reconstruction of the Hadum mosque. We actually went to the
8 scene in October of 2000 and went through the rubble and found
9 identifiable elements of the balcony of the minaret, carved panels, which
10 have been used in the restoration as models for the replacement. So I
11 don't think there is a great deal of doubt that what cut this building in
12 half was the top of the minaret which fell on it.
13 Q. Thank you. Thank you to your answer. Still, I still don't see
14 the tar and the soot that we would be seeing on the walls --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please slow down and repeat
16 his question.
17 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Do you know that on the 11th and the 15th of April there was a
19 bombing that damaged the library and the Hadum mosque?
20 A. I know that there are allegations in -- by the Yugoslav
21 government that the Hadum mosque was damaged by bombardment. All I can
22 speak to is what I observed and the conclusions I can draw from that.
23 Q. I am familiar with your conclusions. The only thing that I'm
24 interested in is your conclusion regarding the allegation by Yugoslav
25 authorities, and perhaps you will agree with me if I were to say that you
1 think that this as a consequence of the NATO bombing is something that is
2 absolutely ruled out as a cause from your point of view?
3 A. Yes, I would agree that I do not believe this to be the result of
4 an air attack, neither the damage to the mosque nor the damage to the
5 library. But as you will note, I was not present when the destruction
6 occurred, so the conclusions I draw are limited by the evidence of the
7 damage that I can see.
8 Q. I'm asking you once more, did you use services of military
9 experts when you drew up your findings --
10 JUDGE PARKER: No need to ask the question, Mr. Djordjevic. We
11 understand from the witness without hesitation that he sought no expert
12 assistance. So to save you time, you don't need to ask again.
13 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] You're right, Your Honour. I
14 have concluded my cross-examination with this. Thank you, Your Honours.
15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Riedlmayer.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Djordjevic.
17 Ms. Kravetz.
18 MS. KRAVETZ: I have no questions in re-examination, Your Honour.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 Questioned by the Court:
21 JUDGE BAIRD: Mr. Riedlmayer, I refer you to a photograph you
22 took showing a mosque classified in the top damaged category. I think it
23 was taken in October 1999. Now, you also encircled a brown and yellow
24 building that was, you said, close to the mosque and that building was
1 A. Yes.
2 JUDGE BAIRD: Now, can you give us some idea what was the
3 distance between that building and the mosque?
4 A. I would say we are dealing with a building that is at least a
5 hundred metres if not more removed in the background. The empty field of
6 rubble you see in that photo --
7 JUDGE BAIRD: Yes.
8 A. -- consisted not only of the site of the mosque but also of the
9 shops of an Albanian bazaar that surrounded it. It was the entire walk
10 around there, surrounded on three sides by modern buildings that was
11 demolished. The modern buildings were intact. Some of the modern
12 buildings were quite close to the mosque, much closer than the building
13 in the background. I marked that merely so you could understand how the
14 mosque appeared. If you wish, I can point it out on the screen but --
15 JUDGE BAIRD: There's no need. There's no need. Thank you very
16 much indeed.
17 JUDGE PARKER: You'll be pleased to know, Mr. Riedlmayer, that
18 that concludes the questions for you. The Chamber is appreciative indeed
19 of the assistance you have been able to give, the time you've spent here,
20 and we're grateful that you've been able, again, to come to The Hague
21 Thank you very much for those matters. You may now, of course, go back
22 to your other activities. You go with our thanks.
23 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 [The witness withdrew]
25 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Kravetz.
2 MS. KRAVETZ: Before we conclude today, I just wanted to make an
3 application regarding one of the last -- actually, the last exhibit I
4 used with this witness yesterday, this is P1137. We have just been able
5 to locate a colour version of that exhibit. The version I used yesterday
6 was a black-and-white one, and the photographs there were not as clear as
7 in the colour versions. I would just ask your leave to replace the
8 version currently in e-court with that coloured version.
9 JUDGE PARKER: It's not in e-court yet I take it?
10 MS. KRAVETZ: Yes, it is, I'm sorry, and I didn't mention the
11 name -- the number of the exhibit is P1137.
12 JUDGE PARKER: That's the black-and-white?
13 MS. KRAVETZ: That is.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Is the colour in e-court?
15 MS. KRAVETZ: No, no, no. We can either attach it to the back or
16 replace the version in e-court, as Your Honours wish.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE PARKER: The colour photograph may be added to the present
19 exhibit. Don't delete what's there; add is our view.
20 MR. DJORDJEVIC: I just want to tell shortly, I agree with that.
21 MS. KRAVETZ: Another matter, Your Honour --
22 JUDGE PARKER: I'm grateful.
23 MS. KRAVETZ: -- the photographs that were being discussed, the
24 four -- the set of four photographs of the Cirez mosque, this is P1132
25 marked for identification, I would seek to tender those photographs into
1 evidence given the extensive cross-examination on them.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber is conscious that there's a deal of
4 evidence to be considered about these exhibits, but in view of the
5 adherence of the witness to his opinion, the Chamber would receive those
6 exhibits in evidence, and in due course will reach its findings as to the
7 subject matter of those photographs and whether or not it is in a
8 position to accept the opinion of the expert about them.
9 MS. KRAVETZ: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE PARKER: So the -- those marked for identification will now
11 become exhibits with the same number.
12 MS. KRAVETZ: One unrelated matter concerns next week's witness
13 scheduling, and I just wanted to inquire with the Court regarding our
14 scheduling -- our sitting time for Wednesday afternoon. It was my
15 understanding that originally Wednesday afternoon was suspected to be a
16 shorter sitting day, but we saw on the court calendar circulated
17 yesterday that it's now -- we're now scheduled to sit up until 7.00 p.m.
18 And we just wanted to confirm that that was the case.
19 And I should point out the reason I'm bringing this up is because
20 we have two witnesses next week as you know. Both of them will not be
21 able to return to the Tribunal for testimony beyond next week, and we
22 would really try to -- we will make our utmost effort to try to complete
23 the testimony of both of those witnesses next week.
24 JUDGE PARKER: More than one comment needs to be made,
25 Ms. Kravetz. First, the Chamber observes that there have been now a
1 growing number of witnesses in which it has been -- in respect of which
2 it has been said, Well, the witness now has to leave so the time
3 available for evidence must be curtailed.
4 The Chamber - and I'm sure Defence counsel with us - try to
5 accommodate the other commitments of witnesses, and that will be so next
6 week with these witnesses. But if it does not prove possible to
7 adequately deal with the evidence of those two witnesses in the time that
8 they presently plan to make themselves available, then it will be
9 necessary for that -- arrangements to be made for one or other of those
10 witnesses to return at an appropriate time to finish their evidence.
11 While all, I'm sure, endeavour to meet with and cooperate with
12 their commitments, we've got to ensure that there's an adequate time
13 available for the evidence. And if that isn't happening in a case, the
14 matter must be dealt with by the witness coming back.
15 As for the sitting next week, I have not seen the latest
16 programme that you've mentioned, but our order has been that we will
17 commence sitting at 1.30 on Wednesday. We did that in the understanding
18 that there -- the courtroom is needed late in the day for another matter.
19 Whether or not that is still the case, I do not know, but we will retain
20 our commencement at 1.30, following the Judges' Plenary meeting, which is
21 commencing at 9.00. And that may then provide a means of ensuring that
22 we can finish the evidence of both witnesses.
23 We will, of course, expect the Prosecution and the Defence to be
24 extremely attentive to relevance with respect to both witnesses, in the
25 hope that indeed their evidence can finish next week. Three full days
1 for these two witnesses ought to be feasible if attention is paid to
2 relevance and questions are directed to the important issues. But it
3 could be that some extra time will be available on the Wednesday with the
4 sitting commencing at 1.30, depending on something I do not presently
5 know, whether or not another matter will continue in the courtroom late
6 in the afternoon.
7 MS. KRAVETZ: Thank you for that, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djordjevic.
9 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it seems that you
10 already said everything that I intended to say, and I hope that the OTP
11 would have the similar understanding when our case starts. We have
12 postponed some of the witnesses, and we are prepared to work full time.
13 This will not present a problem but within the limits of our
14 capabilities. However, lots depends on how we are going to work on
15 Wednesday. The explanation that this witness can only come now and never
16 again, I don't think that, as you said, is something that is subject to
17 discussion. A witness must be available to the court whenever the Court
18 decides, so I'm not going to comment on this any further.
19 Once I receive information about what is going to happen on
20 Wednesday, I will take the liberty to address my learned friends from the
21 OTP if there are any problems. But in any case, you can count on the
22 Defence to do their best to maintain and put into practice this agreement
23 that we have just reached. Thank you.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Djordjevic.
25 In part, of course, it is the fact that we have arranged not to
1 sit on Thursday and Friday to allow counsel to return to their homes,
2 which puts us under a time pressure of those three days only next week.
3 So we would expect full cooperation in an endeavour to finish the
4 evidence of those two witnesses.
5 We can now adjourn for the weekend and look forward to seeing you
6 refreshed on Monday for the last three days of this term. And I believe
7 on Monday we commence at 9.00 in the morning.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.42 p.m.
9 to be reconvened on Monday, the 20th day of
10 July, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.