Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9118

 1                           Tuesday, 29 September 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           -- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Good afternoon.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  I'd remind you, the affirmation you made to tell

 9     the truth still applies, and we are finishing the questioning of

10     Mr. Stamp.

11             MR. STAMP:  Thank you very much, Your Honours, and good

12     afternoon.

13                           WITNESS:  ZIVKO TRAJKOVIC [Resumed]

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15                           Examination by Mr. Stamp: [Continued]

16        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Trajkovic.

17        A.   Good afternoon.

18        Q.   When we broke off last, you had told us what you had been told

19     about the burial of the bodies in Batajnica by one of your officers who

20     had been stationed at Batajnica at the time.  When you heard this, that

21     is, when you discovered what was happening at your base or the base of

22     one of your units, did you speak to Mr. Djordjevic about it?

23        A.   I didn't talk to him about this directly because soon afterwards

24     I returned to the territory of Kosovo and Metohija.

25        Q.   Did you speak with him about it at any time thereafter?

Page 9119

 1        A.   Yes.  In connection with this, I talked, and I think that this

 2     was immediately upon our return from the territory of Kosovo after the

 3     agreement was signed.  But I wish to clarify this.  When you asked me

 4     yesterday whether in the interviews you have had with ICTY investigators

 5     and at the special court in Belgrade, have you told the truth, or did you

 6     omit or suppress anything or leave anything out, specifically what was my

 7     suspicion about some of my statements had to do with this case because

 8     everything I told you yesterday about the activities of my units in

 9     Kosovo and Metohija as well as in other areas fully corresponds with what

10     I stated, and I still stand by that.  But there is something missing

11     here, and it's something that I realised much later after having given

12     those statements.  So if you can give me the opportunity, maybe I could

13     clarify that now, Your Honours.

14        Q.   I don't know if it's relevant to the issues here.  Can I just ask

15     you, what you have to say is in respect to what topic?

16        A.   It mostly relates to the fact that I was convinced for a long

17     time that within the perimeter of the centre of the SAJ Belgrade in

18     Batajnica, only the bodies brought in from Kosovo and Metohija were

19     buried.  It was only much later that I learned that other bodies were

20     also buried there.  These were the bodies that were brought there later,

21     bodies from the refrigerator trucks which appeared only later and from

22     Petrovo Selo.  And that actually all those bodies were brought to

23     Batajnica and buried there, and that was the reason why something is

24     missing in the statements I have given in connection with this during the

25     last ten years.

Page 9120

 1        Q.   I'm not sure I follow you.  You wish to tell us something about

 2     what you were told about the bodies that were buried at Batajnica?

 3        A.   I wished to say that the information I had about the bodies

 4     buried in Batajnica related to the bodies brought from Kosovo and

 5     Metohija, and it was so for a long time.  And I was not aware of the fact

 6     that actually the bodies that showed up sometime later, the bodies from

 7     refrigerator trucks from the Danube close to Bajina Basta also, and the

 8     bodies from Petrovo Selo, from the centre for the PJP training, that

 9     these bodies were also buried there.

10        Q.   Very well, Mr. Trajkovic.  We have heard evidence in this court

11     from people who were involved in transporting and burying the bodies, so

12     perhaps we could get to that aspect of your testimony later.  But before

13     I move away from this could I ask you:  How did you become aware of

14     the -- or how did you receive the information that bodies from Petrovo

15     Selo and Bajina Basta were also buried at Batajnica?

16        A.   It was later that I realised and became aware that in addition to

17     the bodies that had been brought from Kosovo on the first occasion, that

18     a number of these bodies had been buried at Batajnica and that one part

19     was thrown in the refrigerator truck into the Danube, some were thrown

20     into the Perucac lake near Bajina Basta, and another part was buried in

21     Petrovo Selo.  So this is the information I had, that some of them were

22     brought directly from Kosovo to Batajnica and that a certain number of

23     other bodies were buried in these other three locations.  But it was only

24     later that I learned that after I had become aware of these refrigerator

25     trucks that had appeared in the Danube and in the Perucac lake near

Page 9121

 1     Bajina Basta, that these bodies were also brought and buried in

 2     Batajnica.  This is what I realised after I looked over the files, and

 3     then I realised the whole situation.

 4        Q.   Which files are you referring to that informed you about these

 5     burials?

 6        A.   I'm talking about the statements I gave to ICTY investigators in

 7     my capacity as a suspect.  At the time I became aware of the whole story

 8     because you can trust me that nothing was more difficult for me in my

 9     life.  Even though I had been carrying out the kind of tasks that I had

10     to do, nothing was more difficult for me than the awareness that the

11     bodies that had been brought from Kosovo and Metohija were buried in one

12     of my centres.  It was very difficult for me to understand that something

13     like this was possible.  It was possible that something like that could

14     have been done, but my first realisation was that these were the bodies

15     or the mortal remains that had been brought directly from Kosovo.  What I

16     still am in dilemma about is whether this is done because I could never

17     carry out any specific investigation, and it is not quite clear to me

18     whether these are only the bodies that were brought from Kosovo or

19     whether these were also the bodies that were discovered later in the

20     refrigerator trucks and in other locations and were then brought from

21     these locations to the centre in Batajnica and reburied there.

22        Q.   I see.  And that is what you wanted to clarify?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thanks.  I think we very much understand how difficult it would

25     be for you or for anyone to hear that truck-loads of bodies were being

Page 9122

 1     brought to one's base or to territory that one controls for reburial.  So

 2     when you were told this at the funeral by the man in charge of the base

 3     at Batajnica, I think you said you spoke to Mr. Djordjevic about it

 4     sometime after you returned from Kosovo, that is, after the withdrawal of

 5     the MUP and the VJ from Kosovo in June 1999.  Is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes, it was more or less so because I think that I could not have

 7     talked to him about this through the communication that was normally

 8     used, and I noted yesterday that (redacted) told me that this was a

 9     state secret and that it was a very serious affair.

10        Q.   Mr. Trajkovic, for the remainder of your testimony I'm going to

11     ask you not to refer to (redacted) by name.  There are reasons for

12     that.  He's a protected witness.

13             MR. STAMP:  And I would respectfully ask the Court if what the

14     witness just said and what I just said to him could be redacted from the

15     public --

16             JUDGE PARKER:  I think it will be enough if the name (redacted)

17     is removed from -- redacted --

18             MR. STAMP:  Yes, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  -- as was done last evening in respect of --

20             MR. STAMP:  Thank you very much.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  -- the transcript yesterday afternoon late.

22             Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

23             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I did not wish to react yesterday

24     because when we mention names we don't know -- that is to say the public

25     does not know who is protected and who is not and what relates to what.

Page 9123

 1     But yesterday let me not name any names, but we mentioned the full first

 2     and last name of someone who is also a protected witness, so if this is

 3     being done, I think we should do the same for the other person as well,

 4     and I leave it up to the Chamber to consider this.

 5                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Private.

 7                           [Private session]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

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22   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 9124

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

12             MR. STAMP:

13        Q.   How many times did you speak to Mr. Djordjevic about what you had

14     been told in respect to these truck-loads of bodies being taken to your

15     base?

16        A.   I think that we talked about this two times.  The first time was

17     when I had a chance to ask him how come that this was done within the

18     perimeter of our centre in Batajnica, and Mr. Djordjevic replied that

19     this had been the decision of people who were much more important.  He

20     said something like, "This was the decision of people who are much more

21     important than both you and me, and don't ask too many questions about

22     this."  And more or less I then realised what the head of our centre in

23     Batajnica told me, that this was a state secret, but I also realised that

24     the decision had been taken at a high level.

25        Q.   Can you recall the approximate date or month of the first

Page 9125

 1     conversation?

 2        A.   It was sometime around the beginning of June 1999, and the next

 3     time was after we had retired from the territory of Kosovo and SAJ

 4     Pristina unit together with the SAJ Belgrade unit was accommodated at the

 5     centre in Batajnica.  And then we had a conversation about whether it was

 6     possible to exhume those bodies and remove them to some other location.

 7     And then Mr. Djordjevic told me that I shouldn't be concerned about this

 8     and that the time would come for this to be done and that it would be

 9     done in one way or another; and that I shouldn't raise this issue

10     anymore; and that when the time was right that I would be informed about

11     how this would be done and what would be done with these bodies.  And

12     after that I did not raise the issue again.  We were at the centre -- not

13     myself personally, but the commands of both units were staying there.

14     But as for the training, we didn't do any of the training that should

15     have taken place in the part of the base where the bodies were buried

16     until the exhumation became and until the forensic specialists and

17     pathologists did their work.  But this is something that is well-known to

18     everyone by now.

19        Q.   Did Mr. Djordjevic indicate anything to you about the level of

20     secrecy that was to be applied to this matter?

21        A.   To be frank, when I talked to Mr. Djordjevic I had the impression

22     and I thought that these were mortal remains or bodies that had been

23     directly brought from Kosovo and Metohija.  However, I realised later on

24     that my conversation with him and the answers I got from him related to

25     the bodies that had been found in the two refrigerator trucks and in

Page 9126

 1     Petrovo Selo.  Because I remember that on this occasion he told me that

 2     when decisions were taken what to do with this new discovery I asked him,

 3     "Chief, what was it that happened?"  And he replied something like:

 4     "What can I tell you?  All of my brave generals put their heads into

 5     this -- buried their heads into the sand and they left it to me to finish

 6     this part of the work."

 7             Now, whether this was a decision taken by the minister or in his

 8     office or if it had anything to do with a meeting that was held with

 9     President Milosevic with clearing up the terrain, I'm not certain about

10     that.

11        Q.   Yes, is that -- sorry, please proceed.

12        A.   But it was clear that the decision about this had been taken at a

13     high level.  That was highly probable.

14        Q.   That was what I was just getting to.  You told us that

15     Mr. Djordjevic said the decision had been taken by more important people,

16     and you took that to mean that at a -- the decision was taken at a higher

17     level.  Were you told, or did you receive any indication from

18     Mr. Djordjevic as to who took the decision?

19        A.   I understood that the decision had been taken with regard to the

20     sanitation and clearing up of the terrain.  However, I do know that for

21     this kind of purposes of clearing up the terrain General Ilic was in

22     Kosovo in charge of this kind of operations.  And we knew that he had

23     been assigned a team leader of the team that was supposed to clear up the

24     terrain in Kosovo battle-fields.  I was under the impression that this

25     meeting was also related to what Mr. Djordjevic told me during our

Page 9127

 1     conversation.  I may have given a statement in which I quoted him by

 2     saying that this had been done at the meeting with Milosevic; however,

 3     later on I found out that this was the so-called task number two which

 4     involved the relocation of the mortal remains that was subsequently

 5     uncovered and their removal to Batajnica.  Whether a meeting was -- about

 6     that was held with Mr. Milosevic or at the ministerial level, I'm not

 7     sure about that.  But I am sure that on that occasion Mr. Djordjevic in

 8     response to my question about what was going on, he said, "What can I

 9     tell you?  All my generals ran away and left their duty and left me to do

10     this job."  Only later did I realise that he was referring to the removal

11     of the bodies that had been subsequently discovered.

12        Q.   Very well.  Let's -- if you don't mind, let's take this bit by

13     bit.  What I want you to focus on now is just what Mr. Djordjevic said,

14     not what you might have heard or read later on that led you to

15     conclusions.  So let's limit ourselves to that for the time being.  Did

16     Mr. Djordjevic say anything in respect to any meetings where any relevant

17     decisions were made?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   What did he say in respect to this meeting or more than one

20     meeting, to these meetings, where that decision was made?

21        A.   He said that the decision had been taken at a much higher level

22     than either of us were on, and that I shouldn't be concerned about that,

23     particularly how the decision was taken.  In a way, I felt that

24     Mr. Djordjevic wanted to relieve me of this problem and to set my mind at

25     peace until the whole situation is resolved and cleared.  So basically

Page 9128

 1     what he said was that this decision was taken by people who were much

 2     more important than the two of us.  This would be more or less the gist

 3     of what he said.

 4        Q.   Did Mr. Djordjevic say anything about who participated in the

 5     making of the decision, who were these more important or higher-level

 6     persons who participated in the making of this decision?

 7        A.   When Mr. Djordjevic told me that people more important than

 8     either of us were involved, I didn't ask him their identity.  I could

 9     only assume who they were.

10        Q.   I take it from that you mean he did not say anything about the

11     identity of these persons; am I right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Can you recall about when the second conversation with

14     Mr. Djordjevic occurred?  That's the one at the base where the SAJ and

15     the other unit were gathered.

16        A.   The second conversation did not take place at the base, but

17     rather at the then-head office of the ministry.  I said earlier that

18     after the conflict in Kosovo and Metohija ended, these two units were

19     accommodated and that the ministry was relocated.

20        Q.   I'm sorry about that.  I had the wrong place.  But what I'm just

21     interested in is approximately when.  If you can't recall the date, the

22     month and the year would do.

23        A.   It was in June 1999.

24        Q.   You referred to Mr. Ilic.  Can you just remind us what was

25     Mr. Ilic's position in 1999?

Page 9129

 1        A.   At that time General Ilic held the position of the head of the

 2     criminal police investigation administration in the MUP of Serbia.

 3        Q.   During the conflict, March to June 1999, did you see him in

 4     Kosovo?

 5        A.   At least once.  I saw him at least once and perhaps twice.

 6        Q.   Where did you see him, if you can recall?

 7        A.   I saw him in Pristina, that's for sure.  He was in this

 8     provisional staff of MUP for Kosovo and Metohija.

 9        Q.   When you say he was in the provisional staff, you mean he was --

10     well, what do you mean?  Was he located where the staff was set up?

11        A.   That's right.  That's where the staff was at the time because the

12     building where the Kosovo and Metohija staff was located all had been

13     bombed, and they had to move around quite often.

14        Q.   Did you speak with him?

15        A.   We just greeted each other, as is the usual practice.

16        Q.   From your contact with other senior MUP personnel active in

17     Kosovo at the time, were you able to ascertain or receive information as

18     to what was his role in Kosovo?

19        A.   In conversation with my colleagues, I gathered that he was

20     charged with the sanitation and hygiene measures or clearing up in Kosovo

21     and Metohija and that that's why he was stationed there.

22        Q.   You said "that's why he was stationed there."  Were you able to

23     ascertain from your colleagues how often and for what periods of time he

24     would spend in Kosovo?

25        A.   I must admit that I'm not sure whether he was stationed there or

Page 9130

 1     to some other nearby location.  I can only say that I met him at least

 2     once.  And believe me, I never thought about how long he would be staying

 3     there in order to participate in certain operations.

 4        Q.   Knowing what you know now in respect to the movement of the

 5     bodies and the burial of the bodies, that is, the movement of the bodies

 6     from Kosovo and the burial at Batajnica, in your assessment could this

 7     operation have taken place without the knowledge of the membership of the

 8     Joint Command?

 9        A.   I don't think so, that is to say I don't think it could have

10     happened without their knowledge.

11             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, could we go into private session just

12     for two questions.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Private.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9131

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 3   (redacted)

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 5   (redacted)

 6                           [Open session]

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 8             MR. STAMP:

 9        Q.   Did what that person said - and let's not call the name of the

10     person - reflect your attitude in screening persons or screening out

11     persons who had been members of paramilitary units, including those or

12     especially those that were active in Croatia, and ensuring that they were

13     never part of your unit?  Was that your attitude at that time?

14        A.   Your Honours, I'm afraid I don't understand the question.

15        Q.   Very good.  I'll rephrase it.

16             Did the evidence of that person, former member of the SAJ that I

17     just read to you, reflect your attitude in respect to paramilitary

18     persons or persons who were members of paramilitary units joining the

19     SAJ, that you were opposed to it?

20        A.   I'm sorry, but this person is not an ex-member.  He's still

21     discharging the same duties that he did back then.  Therefore, I'm not

22     quite sure that I can answer this question by saying yes or no.

23        Q.   No, no, I don't want you to say yes or no.  I want you to tell us

24     whether or not what he said correctly reflects your attitude in respect

25     to paramilitary members joining the SAJ.  He said you told him that if he

Page 9132

 1     had been a member of any paramilitary unit, including any paramilitary

 2     unit that is active in Croatia, you would not tolerate it and you did not

 3     want anybody like that in your unit.  Does that correctly reflect your

 4     attitude in respect to incorporating paramilitaries into the SAJ?

 5        A.   Your Honours, the person involved was a member of regular MUP

 6     forces in Croatia before he joined us.  I honestly never took part in any

 7     such interviews with him because with regard to the job that he was doing

 8     in Batajnica at the time, he was a simple labourer who were supposed to

 9     do a certain job.  Whether he mixed me with someone else, probably his

10     own commander, Mr. Simovic or not, I'm not sure.  But I definitely never

11     had any such interview about these circumstances with him.

12        Q.   Did you have a policy in respect to the incorporation of former

13     members of paramilitaries into the SAJ?

14        A.   Under normal circumstances the conditions set -- laid down for

15     membership in the units that I commanded were fully clear; however, in

16     the situation that our country found itself in from the 24th of March

17     until the end of the NATO aggression against our country had changed the

18     entire picture all together with respect to the things that you're asking

19     me about.  So maybe we can elaborate on that a little.  However, in

20     regular times I can give you precisely which conditions have to be met by

21     applicants who wish to join the units that I was in command of.

22        Q.   Very well.  I will not pursue that issue any further for the sake

23     of time.

24             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, may it please you, that is the

25     examination-in-chief of this witness.

Page 9133

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much, Mr. Stamp.

 2             Mr. Djurdjic.

 3             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would appreciate a

 4     break so that I can consolidate my notes, and hopefully I will be brief

 5     and expeditious.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  They're lovely words.  Let us hope we find them

 7     well proved.  If it will help, we'll have the first break now,

 8     Mr. Djurdjic, rather than at the normal time, and we will resume at 20

 9     minutes to 4.00.

10                           -- Recess taken at 3.07 p.m.

11                           -- On resuming at 3.40 p.m.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

13             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

14                           Cross-examination by Mr. Djurdjic:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Trajkovic.  My name is

16     Veljko Djurdjic, member of the Defence team of the accused, Vlastimir

17     Djordjevic.  Here with me today is Ms. Marie O'Leary and Mr. Aleksandar

18     Popovic.

19        A.   Good afternoon.

20        Q.   I have only a couple of questions in order to clarify some of the

21     answers that you have given today.  Earlier today you mentioned a meeting

22     with Mr. Milosevic.  Were you by chance present at this meeting with

23     Mr. Milosevic?

24        A.   No, I wasn't.

25        Q.   Have you ever attended any meeting with President Milosevic?

Page 9134

 1        A.   Yes, with him but not in his office.

 2        Q.   When was that meeting?

 3        A.   In 1991.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  How did you come about the information that this

 5     meeting in Milosevic's office took place, the one that you mentioned

 6     today?

 7        A.   I heard about this meeting with Mr. Milosevic from a gentleman

 8     who appeared here as a protected witness, therefore I'm not sure whether

 9     I should mention his name or not.

10        Q.   Don't say anything before we move to private session, please.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Private.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

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Page 9135

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17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in open session.

21             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Do you know whether during the war in all of Serbia, including

23     Kosovo and Metohija, there were on-site investigations carried out in all

24     incidents where death was the result whenever such incidents were known?

25        A.   Certainly so in Serbia.  Whether this was carried out in Kosovo,

Page 9136

 1     all these on-site investigations, I cannot say with any certainty,

 2     especially not for the year 1999.  But I believe that if the conditions

 3     were met to do that, that it was done in Kosovo as well.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And while you were there in Kosovo, did you know that

 5     representatives of the branch offices of the SUP did that, that they went

 6     out onto the scene whenever death occurred?

 7        A.   Yes, whenever it was possible.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know and did you sign any note about the

 9     conversation with the witness that -- whom we mentioned a minute ago and

10     whose name you don't have to mention now?

11        A.   No, it was rather a private conversation.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Now I would ask to see Exhibit MFI

14     D48.

15             And while we're waiting for the document to appear on the screen,

16     Your Honours, as it has been translated I would ask for it to be admitted

17     into evidence after we have a look at it.

18                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

19             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Mr. Trajkovic, can you see your name anywhere here on this first

21     page?

22        A.   No.

23             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we please show the second

24     page.

25                           [Defence counsel confer]

Page 9137

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot see my name on the second

 2     page either.

 3             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just let me say it's

 6     D004-2898 -- correction:  2892, this was the document.  And the document

 7     that should help us with the identification, and now I wish to propose

 8     that it be admitted into evidence.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  I'm told it's not yet been uploaded into the

10     electronic system.  It may have been translated, but the procedure has

11     not been followed.  This is MFI D48.

12                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

13             JUDGE PARKER:  We now have the number 2892 of the translation, so

14     we can receive as Exhibit D48 the earlier one that was marked for

15     identification.  Thank you.

16             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17        Q.   Mr. Trajkovic, you noted a little while ago that you had this

18     conversation with Mr. Djordjevic when you asked him how come that all

19     these bodies ended up at the centre in Batajnica.  Am I right that he

20     told you that it was decided at a level much higher than you and him that

21     the bodies be buried there?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right that you during the war and until 2001 did

24     not have any knowledge about the transportation of bodies from Kosovo and

25     Metohija into Serbia?

Page 9138

 1        A.   I first learned about the bodies buried at the centre in

 2     Batajnica somewhere around April 1999, and I understood that these were

 3     bodies brought to Batajnica from Kosovo.  So it was not before 2001, but

 4     it was in April 1999.  That was when I learned about that.

 5        Q.   And tell me, did you hear this from (redacted)?

 6        A.   I heard from (redacted) that a great number of bodies had been

 7     brought there, and of course, I connected that with the clearing of the

 8     terrain in Kosovo.  And when he said these were great numbers, I suppose

 9     that they couldn't be from any other location or any other area, but that

10     these were the mortal remains of people from Kosovo.

11        Q.   Thank you.  That was your conclusion; right?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MR. STAMP:  There is need I think for another redaction.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  We've just been discussing that.  It's simply said

15     in evidence, but as attention has now been drawn to it I think we better

16     redact.

17             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18        Q.   Mr. Trajkovic, am I right that your opinion that without the

19     knowledge of the Joint Command the bodies could not have been transported

20     from Kosovo and Metohija into Serbia is only your assumption?

21        A.   As I did not attend the meetings at which this was decided, it's

22     absolutely just my assumption that this was done on the territory of

23     Kosovo and Metohija -- that nothing could be done on the territory of

24     Kosovo and Metohija without the knowledge of the staff in Pristina.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Trajkovic, what was Mr. Djordjevic's attitude

Page 9139

 1     when he told you about the burial of these bodies in Batajnica?  Can you

 2     tell us anything about that?

 3        A.   Well, I have more or less replied to that, that we did not

 4     discuss this at any length.  When I asked him why this had been done in

 5     Batajnica and how come that they had been buried there, he replied more

 6     or less that I shouldn't be concerned about that, that the decision had

 7     been taken at a much higher level, and that now I shouldn't be bothered

 8     about this too much but that I should focus on the problems relating to

 9     my own units.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I have no more questions, Your

12     Honour.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp.

14             MR. STAMP:  And I have no re-examination, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Trajkovic, you'll be pleased to learn that

16     that concludes the questions that will be asked of you.  The Chamber has

17     listened with interest to your evidence, and we would like to thank you

18     for your attendance here and the assistance that you have been able to

19     give.  You may of course now return to your normal activities and a court

20     officer will assist you from the courtroom.  So thank you indeed.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

22                           [The witness withdrew]

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp.

24             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, that is the extent of the witnesses we

25     have available for this week.  We have one scheduled for next Monday,

Page 9140

 1     pending -- well, we expect to have that witness on Monday, but that

 2     depends on -- some degree on the health status of that person.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Are you saying that you are not yet in a position

 4     to know about the attendance of that witness?

 5             MR. STAMP:  Indeed, Your Honours.  Our arrangement was that we

 6     would speak with him on -- today or tomorrow - I think it's

 7     tomorrow - but we are scheduled to speak with him tomorrow.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  It appears to the Chamber important that the

 9     witness attend next week or the following Monday if we are to finish the

10     evidence this month for the Prosecution.  So we would encourage you to do

11     all that is possible to ensure that that occurs.

12             Now, you have mentioned two other witnesses, one of whom is to be

13     heard commencing Monday, the 26th of October.

14             MR. STAMP:  Yes, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Is there anything known more of the third witness

16     at this point?

17             MR. STAMP:  No, Your Honour.  We are pulling out all the stops,

18     so to speak, to locate that witness.  But as I indicated before, we would

19     not seek any additional time for that witness if that witness is not

20     available by that last week of October.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, at the moment then we will -- sorry,

22     Mr. Djurdjic.

23             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have something to

24     ask for, and I have a proposition.  The Prosecution case is almost

25     finished.  We are working very intensively on preparing the Defence case,

Page 9141

 1     so I would ask you, if possible, as we shall anyway be working in the

 2     week of the 26th October, that if we can have the same -- the next

 3     witness in the same week because in the meantime we could be preparing

 4     the Defence case.  I think this would be efficient and useful, and I

 5     think that we would finish both of these witnesses during this week when

 6     the Chamber planned to have the completion of the Prosecution case.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  The obvious difficulty with that proposition

 8     concerns the health of the next witness.  Whenever that witness is able

 9     to be here, I think we need to ensure that the witness is heard so that

10     we don't find that in two or three weeks' time the witness is again not

11     well enough to attend.  I know that will be of inconvenience potentially

12     to you and those preparing the case in Belgrade, but it's going to be I

13     think more important that we ensure that we hear the evidence of that

14     witness whenever he can be here to give it.  Now, it may mean that we

15     will have to delay a day or so to enable you to travel to be here, but I

16     think it would be putting at risk the completion of the Prosecution case

17     if we simply adjourned now until the week of the 26th of October.  Of

18     course, we might find we've missed the one opportunity of hearing that

19     witness.

20             I'm sorry about that, Mr. Djurdjic.  We normally do what we can

21     to accommodate you, but that appears to be a significant issue.  So what

22     we must do is adjourn now until next Monday.  It is possible that in the

23     meantime we will learn that the witness cannot be here, in which event of

24     course we will advise you or the -- the Prosecution will advise you so

25     that you don't have to travel.  Or if you're still here, you then are

Page 9142

 1     free then to return to Belgrade and make arrangements to be there for the

 2     next fortnight.  Of course it will be important that you be concentrating

 3     in this time on the preparation of the Defence case, as you say that you

 4     are.  But I hope you realise that for the reason indicated we really need

 5     to seize the opportunity, if it's available, of hearing the evidence of

 6     this witness.

 7             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  My hope

 8     was just that the witness's health would be better and better, so in that

 9     sense I had this proposal.  But I absolutely accept any of your

10     considerations.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.  We will proceed on that basis, and we

12     expect to hear from you, Mr. Stamp, the moment it is known whether or not

13     the witness will be here next Monday.  And if it is that some other date

14     is a date that the witness can be here, it may be that we will have to

15     change the hearing date from next Monday to that other date to fit in

16     with the health of the witness.  But the Chamber's preference is to hear

17     the witness as soon as he is available so that we do not miss the

18     opportunity all together of hearing him.

19             And beyond that, we have what will be the last witness for the

20     Prosecution on Monday, the 26th of October.

21             MR. STAMP:  Indeed.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Indeed.  Thank you.

23             Well, we adjourn now, with a view to resuming on Monday next.

24                           -- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.07 p.m.,

25                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 5th day of

Page 9143

 1                           October, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.