1 Friday, 19 February 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 10.05 a.m.
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. Please sit down.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 JUDGE PARKER: The affirmation that you made to tell the truth
9 still applies. Mr. Behar.
10 WITNESS: MILUTIN FILIPOVIC [Resumed]
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Behar:
13 Q. Good morning, sir. My name is Eliott Behar. I'm counsel for the
14 Prosecution, and I have a number of questions for you this morning.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Witness's microphones were off, the
16 interpreters did not hear what the witness said.
17 MR. BEHAR:
18 Q. Sir, just before we get into more detailed questions, I want to
19 make sure that I'm understanding the extent of your evidence. Both from
20 Wednesday and from when you testified in the Milutinovic trial, and we
21 will have a chance to go through things in more detail. Right now I
22 would just like to see briefly if I understand your position.
23 You are saying, sir, first of all, there were no roadblocks or
24 check-points, certainly no barbed wire in Pristina; is that correct?
25 A. As far as I can remember, what I said for the most part was what
1 you said just now, or rather, I said that there was no barbed wire around
2 Pristina or any check-points that prevented the unhindered movement of
3 the population towards Pristina, outside Pristina, and within the town
5 Q. That's right, sir. I think, in fact, you were quite clear in
6 your testimony there were no check-points, no barbed wire. And you were
7 also clear there was no destruction of any Albanian religious
8 institution, correct? Certainly no destruction of mosques; is that
10 A. Yes, that is absolutely correct. Not a single Islamic place of
11 worship in the territory of Pristina had been destroyed or damaged
12 throughout the aggression, or rather, up until the moment when the
13 Kumanovo agreement was signed.
14 Q. You were also clear, sir, there were no deportations conducted by
15 any of the Serb forces, correct?
16 A. I said that I did not see any such deportations and also I did
17 not observe myself that anyone was deporting someone else by force. I'm
18 not aware of any such thing, and I don't know about it.
19 Q. You were also clear, sir, and you spoke in some detail about
20 this, the Prosecution witness Nazalie Bala couldn't possibly have made
21 any of the observations she made, just to be clear cover those, you said
22 she certainly couldn't have seen Dragodan from where she was, correct?
23 A. What I said was that she could not see the Orthodox cemetery in
24 Pristina near Dragodan. As for parts of the Dragodan neighbourhood,
25 perhaps it is possible to see them, some of them, but not the Orthodox
2 Q. We can go through that in more detail, sir, but before we move
3 on, you were also clear that she couldn't have seen from Vranjevac
4 towards Kojlovica; correct?
5 A. Kojlovica, yes, towards Kojlovica, I mean, but she could not see
6 the village of Kojlovica itself.
7 Q. And you said the same thing about Lukare, she couldn't have seen
8 it, and you also added there were no tanks or armoured vehicles there in
9 any case, correct?
10 A. There was a military depot in Lukare of the Pristina Corps, and
11 in that part of the area, she could not see anything. She could only
12 hear detonations from there because part of Lukare was bombed every day
13 during the aggression.
14 Q. And, in fact, sir, despite the evidence that we've heard in this
15 case from a number of different witnesses about the events that took
16 place in Pristina after the outbreak of the war and what took place at
17 the hands of the Serb forces, your testimony is that things in Pristina
18 essentially were fine, life went on as normal; is that fair to say?
19 A. That's not correct. Everything was not fine in Pristina. I said
20 that life went on in a relatively normal way in keeping with war-time
21 conditions though. Supplies were as normal as possible. I mean, there
22 were sufficient quantities of bread, and it was roughly as it was before
23 the war, the bread situation.
24 I said that cultural life functioned more or less as normal.
25 There was TV and radio in the Siptar language, in the Serbian language,
1 in the Turkish language, and in the Roma language. I also said that
2 other things were going on as well in Pristina, things that are part of
3 normal life. The market, then the hospital. Irrespective of war,
4 children were born, people died, got married. Before the aggression,
5 during the aggression practically there was no difference. Babies were
6 born at the maternity ward of the Pristina hospital, and the staff there
7 was of Siptar, Serb, Turkish ethnicity, and I know all of their names,
8 and all of the population in Pristina was aware of that.
9 Then in Pristina there were religious services in practically all
10 mosques, even during the NATO aggression. Even in the three mosques that
11 were in the immediate vicinity of my command post. That would be it in
12 the briefest possible terms.
13 Q. I think we have your position on that. Sir, it would appear on
14 the whole of your testimony that in short you are denying that any of the
15 allegations that have been made against the Serb forces who were
16 operating in Pristina were true, and that would involve deportations,
17 certainly murders, the use of armoured vehicles, tanks? Essential sir,
18 none of the allegations that have been made against the Serb forces in
19 this case are accurate in your testimony; is that a fair
21 A. No, I don't agree with what you said just now. It is correct
22 that there were killings in Pristina, and it is true that there were dead
23 among the Serbs and Siptars and other ethnicities, but for the most part,
24 they were victims of the NATO bombing, and also of the Siptar terrorist
1 Q. But not by the Serb forces, sir, which is what I asked you? The
2 Serb forces --
3 A. I'm not aware of any civilian victims at the hands of the Serb
4 forces. I'm particularly not aware of anyone being harmed from the -- or
5 rather by the command group or the personnel that I commanded. As you
6 know, I have already said that we had not fired a single bullet. We did
7 not point any barrels of our weapons at anyone all the way up until the
8 end of the NATO aggression.
9 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, I'd like to go through your evidence on
10 each of these points in more detail.
11 To begin, sir, you testified in the Milutinovic case and again
12 here that you saw columns of Kosovo Albanians fleeing Pristina, moving en
13 masse through the city, and your testimony was that these people in the
14 columns were pretending that they were faking. As you put it, sir, this
15 was a "imitation of migration." Do you recall saying that?
16 A. I recall saying that, I recall that very well. And that is,
17 indeed, what I had seen. I actually saw this imitation several times. I
18 can give you the details as well, what I said then and new ones that I've
19 remembered in the meantime. Several times they passed right by my
20 command post where I was. I even talked to certain individuals from
21 these columns. These were fellow citizens of mine with whom I'd lived
22 for many years, I knew many of them personally. I saw them passing by me
23 and then coming back from another direction. I can even give you the
24 exact directions. And that's what happened on several occasions.
25 A part of them really did move out of town. Whereas others were
1 involved in this imitation, as I called it. Very well.
2 Q. We'll go step by step, sir. You are also clear, sir, that the
3 purpose of this fake migration was essentially an elaborate ruse by the
4 population to help terrorists flee the country. If we can, I'd like to
5 look at your exact words in Milutinovic in that respect.
6 MR. BEHAR: If we could see D712, please. That's at page 44. So
7 if we can look at line 18.
8 Q. The transcript is in English, sir, so I'll read it to you and
9 you'll receive the translation. You said:
10 "The aim" in other words the aim or the point of having these
11 columns. "The aim, especially in the area from Ljubce to Grastica was to
12 have terrorists join those columns who threw away their weapons and fled
13 before the forces fighting them and shooting at them."
14 Do you recall saying that, sir?
15 A. I recall having said that.
16 Q. Now, sir, I'm going to suggest to you that there are a number of
17 problems with this claim, and I'd like to go through a number of the
18 issues as I see them, one by one. To start with, this reason you've
19 given, you've essentially said that the reason for this enormous
20 production is false convoys that are moving through the city was so that
21 the Albanians could help terrorists to flee the country. But, in fact,
22 sir, according to your evidence, terrorists acts were continuing and, in
23 fact, even intensifying. Do you agree with that?
24 A. I wouldn't agree with that as a whole. That was just one of the
25 reasons. One of the important reasons was to create a picture of a
1 humanitarian catastrophe and migration. As for these columns especially
2 when they were coming from Grastica and Kacikol, they wanted the
3 terrorists to join these columns, or rather, the terrorists would throw
4 away their weapons and then they would join these columns. That was a
5 very important reason too, and it was established several times, even
6 before the aggression but also during the aggression.
7 Q. But, sir, to focus on my question, do you recall in your previous
8 testimony discussing in some detail that terrorist attacks were
9 continuing and even intensifying throughout that time?
10 A. Yes, very intensive terrorist attacks, both during the aggression
11 and before the aggression. It went on all the time in the broader area
12 of Pristina, and there were many acts of terrorism committed in Pristina
13 itself by the Siptar terrorists at that.
14 Q. So even just on your own evidence, sir, the terrorists weren't
15 fleeing the country at all, their operations were continuing, and yet
16 you've described these convoys to operate for the purpose of moving
17 terrorists out of the country? That doesn't fit together, does it?
18 A. No, no, that's not what I said to you. You keep saying that I've
19 said that, but that's not what I said. It was not to have the terrorists
20 leave the country. It was to have the terrorists become part of those
21 columns so that they could infiltrate town again and that territory again
22 so that they could continue carrying out their terrorist activities. So
23 it wasn't the terrorists' aim to move out of Kosovo and Metohija, rather
24 it was their aim to hide in the areas where they had been operating until
25 then to become part of the columns, leave out of town, operate out of
1 town, and then operate yet again with weapons both inside town and
2 outside town. That is the point of what I've been trying to say.
3 Q. Okay, sir, well, then let's take that position and let's explore
4 it a little bit. If you had actually seen these large convoys that you
5 knew to be smuggling terrorists on mass from one location to another,
6 surely, sir, that's something that you would have had to duty to support
7 to your superiors, correct? You would have had an obligation to report
9 A. It's not only that it would have been my duty, I did that anyway.
10 Even if I had not done that, my Superior Command knew about this from the
11 previous period before the aggression too. That was the method applied
12 by the Siptar terrorists. Similar methods were applied by them earlier
13 on, too, like in 1990 when they pretended to fall dead because they had
14 been allegedly poisoned by the Serbian forces. An entire class of school
15 children would fall in the middle of the classroom, Siptar school
16 children; whereas, Serb school children would just look at them and
17 wonder what on earth was going on, so the methodology is very similar.
18 Q. Let's try to stay focused on the questions here, sir. You've
19 agree, I think, that you would have had an obligation certainly to report
20 on this massive terrorist activity, so I ask you, sir, where are those
22 A. There are many reports of mine that are devoted to that. I
23 reported to the corps commander about that orally as well. I also
24 reported to the corps command during the aggression. I also remember
25 that I filed written reports several times, and I really do wonder where
1 these reports may be.
2 Q. Well, I can tell you, sir, we certainly haven't seen a single one
3 of those reports here. Before we move on --
4 A. I couldn't find these reports either. I tried to find some of
5 them, but I couldn't because my access to archives became impossible
6 because of the lack of care for these archives in Belgrade. And because
7 of the attitude of the authorities that organise these archives and treat
8 them in a certain way. To this day, I cannot get a single document that
9 I signed during the aggression. For example, I signed a document
10 allowing the establishment of a bathroom in Grmija so that all members of
11 the military could take baths. I also signed a document stating how mail
12 should be received at the Pristina garrison. That document isn't there
13 either, and there are eye-witnesses to that.
14 Q. Well, sir, there may certainly be differences in obtaining
15 documents relating to the establishment of a bathroom as compared to
16 documents establishing a massive large-scale operation to move terrorists
17 throughout Pristina, but let me move on.
18 Another point, sir, and I'll put this to you directly, it seems
19 problematic --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. On the one hand, sir, you are saying that these were fake convoys
22 that were moving back and forth throughout Pristina, but you've also said
23 repeatedly in your testimony that the Kosovo Albanians did, in fact,
24 leave Pristina but they only left in order to escape the NATO bombing.
25 We can go through this step by step, sir. Let me ask you first, do you
1 recall testifying that the Kosovo Albanians left Pristina because of the
2 NATO bombing?
3 A. Yes, it is quite certain that they were leaving just like the
4 Serbs. Siptars were leaving Pristina and the broader region because of
5 the NATO aggression, but Serbs were leaving it too. Also, I indicated
6 this other very important reason. This imitation, this false
7 representation of immigration. So there were examples of both. And then
8 there were also examples of a third and fourth kind of emigration, but I
9 also said that there were examples of immigration into Pristina, that is
10 to say, Siptars and Serbs moving into Pristina.
11 There are many diverse reasons and types of emigration and
12 immigration. However, the most massive movements of both Serbs and
13 Siptars were due to NATO bombings and many casualties among the Siptars
14 and Serbs due to these attacks and everything that happened due to panic
15 and propaganda in the town of Pristina. Especially attacks against
16 infrastructure, waterworks, the telephone exchange in Pristina, the
17 transformer station, there were power cuts every day, and especially the
18 human casualties that were suffered, then --
19 Q. Sir, if you can, let's try to keep your answers focused and
20 you'll have a chance to expand on the aspects of your answers that focus
21 on my question. Just very briefly, sir, you've said that these large
22 movements out of Pristina began on the eve of the aggression and
23 continued and, in fact, intensified through the aggression. Very
24 briefly, sir, is that fair, is that correct?
25 A. Briefly put, there was immigration out of Pristina and the
1 general area of Pristina before the aggression, during the aggression, as
2 well as after the aggression. The same goes for people moving in.
3 Q. And, sir, perhaps we'll just deal with this by looking at your
4 brief testimony in the Milutinovic case.
5 MR. BEHAR: If we can see D712 again at page 43. Beginning at
6 line 12.
7 Q. You were quite focused here, sir, in discussing the population
8 moving out of Pristina and you say:
9 "It grew in intensity," as in the migration, "grew in intensity
10 especially after the air-strikes of the very centre of town, which was on
11 the 7th of April. After that, this migration increased, especially
12 because some crucial facilities, such as the transformer station in
13 Pristina were bombed."
14 You essential repeated that on Wednesday, sir. Do you recall
15 making that statement?
16 A. Everything that was recorded then and everything I said then is
17 something I cannot deny now, and I don't want to. I recall this. I know
18 that people were moving out of Pristina in greater numbers after the 7th
19 of April including Albanian, Serbs and others because there were many
20 victims. There were many Serbs and Siptars killed during the bombing.
21 Telephone lines were interrupted and people were in panic.
22 Q. So, sir, your position is that somehow you were you able to tell
23 that some of the Albanians were putting on a fake show and pretending to
24 leave in large convoys while others were actually leaving in convoys, but
25 those others were only leaving because of the NATO bombing. Does that
1 make sense, sir?
2 A. It was a synchronised process. Some of them were imitating the
3 existence of a column by going around Pristina in circles. Others moved
4 out because of the fear of NATO bombardment and the casualties they had
5 suffered trying to bring their children to safety. There were also cases
6 of people moving out of Pristina for fear of the Siptar terrorists
7 activities, as well as losses they had experienced in particular because
8 of their activities.
9 But there were also great numbers of Siptars moving into Pristina
10 because the terrorists were particularly active in the general area of
11 Pristina, especially in the area of Drenica and Malisevo. They were
12 moving into Pristina seeking refuge. Some of that Albanian population
13 was received by the Red Cross in Pristina as well as by other local
14 authority organs in charge of that. People were received and given
16 Some of them were even received in the area of Kisnica, only 1-
17 to 200 metres away from the corps command building. Those Siptars had
18 come from Drenica and Malisevo. They were received there together with
19 the Serbs in the refugee centre. They were given the same assistance
20 they -- that was accorded to the Serbs who had previously arrived from
21 Croatia and elsewhere.
22 Q. Sir, please try, if you can, to focus on my questions and what
23 you are actually being asked.
24 Sir, you've described what is no doubt an extremely complicated
25 state of affairs that it appears you were able to discern from watching,
1 perhaps even from just watching out your window. But, sir, I'm going to
2 suggest to you that what, in fact, took place and the explanation for
3 what you are saying was, in fact, much simpler. My suggestion to you,
4 sir, is that you essentially adopted the position that was taken in the
5 Milutinovic Defence, which was that the Albanians left because of the
6 NATO bombing, and that you've added, as well, your own explanation, which
7 is that the Albanians didn't leave at all, they essential just walked
8 back and forth in the same convoys but that you found now, sir, that
9 those positions don't fit together so you've come up with what is a
10 rather complicated and hard-to-fathom state of affairs.
11 A. You have said quite a lot here. I'm trying to analyse that
12 because you put a number of questions as well as a number of assertions.
13 I'll try to be concise.
14 I agree with you that the situation was complex and that the
15 reasons for people of moving in or moving out were as complex, including
16 those who tried to imitate a process of moving out. What is the gist of
17 it all? Part of the Serb and Albanian population had moved prior to the
18 aggression as well as during the aggression. Parts of the population
19 moved out because of the fear of NATO bombardment. I have explained that
20 in length. There were many casualties, entire Albanian families were
21 killed by NATO bombs as well as many Serbs in Pristina.
22 Next some of them were moving out because they feared the Siptar
23 terrorists. Thirdly, a number of families of Siptar terrorists as well
24 as those related to them from the general area of Pristina moved out
25 because they feared retaliation since their family members were members
1 of the terrorist forces.
2 Fourthly, some people were moving out because the situation in
3 town was difficult. There were power cuts, there were no telephone
4 lines, and they could not speak to their nearest and dearest. There were
5 many other reasons for people moving out as well as moving in, as I've
7 When we are talking about emigration, one should always bear in
8 mind that Serbs, Roma, Albanians, the Turks, and everyone else was moving
9 out in different ways, on foot, in vehicle, on buses, and I've already
10 explained my role in --
11 Q. You've covered that already. Sir, if I can just get back again
12 to the core of my question, which is the inconsistency between these two
13 basic claims, in fact, the inconsistency was first pointed out to you by
14 His Honour Judge Bonomy when you testified in the Milutinovic case, and
15 perhaps we can look at that.
16 MR. BEHAR: It's at again D712. It's at page -- I only have the
17 transcript reference for this, it's T-19194. If we can have that up.
18 Q. If we just look here at line 18, sir, I think we'll see that your
19 explanation here is relatively more straightforward, and it appears to
20 have become more and more complex. At line 18 Judge Bonomy asks you:
21 "Are these different columns from the ones that were migrating to
22 escape the bombs?"
23 And he appears to be have been somewhat surprised by your
24 position there, and you responded:
25 "Well, my answer is as follows: Some of those columns behaved in
1 the way I have just described. Some citizens really fled to escape the
2 bombs. They were concerned and frightened of the bombing. Some had had
3 relatives killed or wounded by the bombs. And these were civilians
5 Then you said:
6 "However, there were many of those that I've just described who
7 were simply pretending to migrate, and these were more numerous than the
8 former category. At least as far as the town of Pristina is concerned."
9 Do you recall that exchange with Judge Bonomy, sir, that answer?
10 A. I fully recall this answer. I see nothing that would be in
11 dispute in it.
12 Q. And so your answer when you were first met with this
13 inconsistency was a simple one, there were different columns of Albanians
14 moving throughout the city, some of those you were able to tell were fake
15 convoys but others were real convoys, and you were apparently also able
16 to tell that those people were only leaving because of the NATO bombing.
17 Is that accurate?
18 A. Everything I said is correct for sure. There's no reason for it
19 to be any other way other than the way I described it and the way I
20 experienced it. I can confirm the same thing now. I used to see
21 citizens in columns who would move about Pristina in the morning and then
22 in the afternoon they would pass by me again. I recognised among them
23 Adem Demaci as one of those escorting those columns, he was a famous
24 terrorist. He was always part of that column and always came back. He
25 didn't leave Pristina for a single day. He moved about safely. He did
1 not flee; whereas, I saw many others who did pass by and never returned.
2 That's the essence. I see nothing in dispute or anything contradictory
3 in my answer.
4 Q. I think we have your position on that point, sir. Let's move to
5 a slightly different topic.
6 Sir, you came here on Wednesday and on your own you went into
7 detail about depleted uranium. And if we can, let's look at one of those
9 MR. BEHAR: If we could look at the testimony from Wednesday from
10 this case, that's T-11559. I'm told that we can actually bring that up.
11 Q. If we just look at beginning at line 19, you were asked, the
12 question was a simple one:
13 "Did you have any information about -- about what was used in the
14 bombing? What kind of equipment?"
15 Your answer was:
16 "I had a lot of information. I had practically daily insight."
17 And then you went on to say, "I can document many things from that field,
18 particularly the fact that the broader area of Pristina was bombed with
19 projectiles that contained depleted uranium."
20 Do you recall saying that, sir?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. Sir, you had, in fact, never mentioned anything before about
23 depleted uranium, had you, in this court, when you testified in the
24 Milutinovic trial, you never used the words "depleted uranium," had you?
25 A. I don't recall everything I said, but it must be recorded. What
1 is on the record is something I must have said. And let me tell you
2 this: I haven't uttered many a thing and I won't even today because
3 there is simply no time. I could go on and on about the methods and
4 means used against the population of Kosovo, Serbs, Albanian, Turks, Roma
5 and others. The plight was so great that it is difficult for me to go
6 through all of the reasons.
7 Q. I know you can't sir, and let's just focus on my question. I
8 think tell you that you, in fact, never mentioned the words "depleted
9 uranium." You certainly never mentioned it in the Milutinovic case, but
10 you did, in fact, discuss the NATO bombing at great length during your
11 testimony. Would you agree with that, sir, you did, in fact, go into
12 great detail about the NATO bombing, correct? Just yes or no?
13 A. I spoke extensively about NATO bombardment. In the last case,
14 the Milutinovic case, I didn't mention any planes that were shot down,
15 but that could have been seen by many inhabitants of Pristina. There are
16 many things I didn't mention but nonetheless, they took place in Pristina
17 and its broader area. I didn't even mention many chemical incidents,
18 although such things occurred, many inhabitants of Pristina suffered from
19 such attacks.
20 Q. And yet, sir, despite not having mentioned this when you
21 testified in detail about people fleeing the city because of NATO
22 bombing, you are now saying that you had firsthand knowledge of depleted
23 uranium use and, in fact, sir, you've testified that you were personally
24 handling and dealing with depleted uranium projectiles out in the field,
1 A. Yes, it is correct.
2 Q. Did you discuss this issue about depleted uranium with anyone
3 before you testified here today, sir?
4 A. As far as I recall, I discussed that topic a few years ago
5 constantly with other citizens, friends of mine from the army and outside
6 the army about depleted uranium. There were many entities that undertook
7 checks about the effects of such ammunition. There were many of them
8 handling that issue before and now there are less and less because
9 unfortunately it seems to be the policy now.
10 Q. Just to focus again on the very specific question, sir. Before
11 you testified here on Wednesday, before you began your testimony, did you
12 discuss the issue of depleted uranium with anyone, I can be specific, did
13 you discuss it with anyone who had an interest in this case?
14 A. No, not that. I did not discuss it that way, and there was no
15 need for me. I was not trying to gain additional information. I'm only
16 talking about what I could see and observe myself. Many people suffered
17 the consequences of such attacks, and many people are still being treated
18 for consequences of that type of ammunition including the military,
19 medical clinic, and other health institutions.
20 Q. Are you aware, sir, that issues surrounding depleted uranium seem
21 to now have become an issue in this case? Is that something that you are
22 aware of or that you were aware of before you began your testimony on
24 A. Even before my arrival here, I heard that depleted uranium was
25 discussed here among other things. It was used, it is a generally known
1 thing, and I don't think that needs to be proven separately.
2 Q. Sir, how did you hear that depleted uranium was being discussed
4 A. I heard of depleted uranium being discussed here in the
5 Milutinovic case. As far as I recall, it was a topic then as well. As
6 well as later. I could read in our press about that.
7 Q. Sir, we've already covered the fact that you didn't mention
8 depleted uranium once when you testified in the Milutinovic case. What
9 I'd like to know is that you mentioned "before my arrival here, I heard
10 that depleted uranium was discussed here among other things." What I
11 would like to know is, how did you hear that, who did you speak to?
12 A. As I've said, from the media. I heard of the use off uranium
13 from the media. I also had that information during the aggression
14 because our units tasked with providing anti-nuclear and chemical
15 security measures were familiar with that. I knew about that at the time
16 as well.
17 Q. I know that, sir, what I'm trying to focus on is how you
18 discovered that it was an issue in this case before you testified. You
19 are saying that you heard that in the media. Do you mean, sir, that you
20 read in the media that the use of depleted uranium was being used in the
21 Djordjevic case? Am I understanding that correctly? This was being
22 discussed, this was now an issue?
23 A. I didn't go much into it the Djordjevic case. I was here for
24 other tasks and duties as well. I'm not particularly interested in this
25 case. I could follow the media just as any other citizen. As for the
1 use of depleted uranium in Kosovo, I received information from the media.
2 I think it was carried by the world press as well.
3 Q. Well, sir, it doesn't seem like I'm going to get an answer from
4 you with respect to where you heard this information or if you spoke to
5 anyone before coming here on Wednesday, but I'll put to you, sir, the
6 suggestion that, in fact, what has happened here is that you've received
7 information somehow that depleted uranium, the use of depleted uranium,
8 is a live issue in this case, and you've therefore come and testified in
9 detail about your personal experience with depleted uranium on the ground
10 in Kosovo in order to further that line of defence. Do you agree with
11 that, sir?
12 A. I don't. There's no reason to back anyone up in particular or
13 further anything. I told you that I had information of such missiles
14 myself. There are many witnesses to that, I even organised an exhibition
15 in front of my command building to the north-west of the Pristina mosque.
16 All citizens could see that there were Tomahawk stabilisers, cluster
17 bombs stabilisers, and parts of cluster bombs. There were signatures of
18 personnel who put their signatures on parts of those ammunitions. The TV
19 Belgrade took footage of that. Magoci [phoen] was the cameraman, and the
20 reporter was another Albanian. The whole world could see that.
21 Q. Sir, while we were on the topic of depleted uranium, let me take
22 you to particular portion of your testimony on this point.
23 MR. BEHAR: If we could see again from the Djordjevic trial,
24 T-11560. And we'll look beginning at line 17.
25 Q. You were asked, sir, of the question:
1 "I asked you about the location where you were where depleted
2 uranium was used and how come you know?"
3 And you answered:
4 "I caught these projectiles with my own hands in the area of
5 Donja Grmija. That is the untoward thing that I did. And I brought them
6 to Pristina so that all citizens could see them. And, to this day, I
7 suffer the effects of that."
8 Now, unless you are a truly remarkable man, sir, I'm assuming
9 that you didn't actually catch a projectile with your hands, perhaps that
10 was an error of interpretation, but if I understand what you are saying
11 correctly, you are testifying that you picked up a depleted uranium
12 projectile with your own hands; is that correct?
13 A. It is not. I don't know what you gathered from that, but I would
14 very much like you to understand what I'm trying to say. I took parts of
15 those projectiles, there's nothing in question there. There are
16 countless witnesses to that. There seems to be a mistake, though, and I
17 stand to be corrected if I'm wrong, I don't think it was in the area of
18 Grmija. Even if it was, there is no problem there. I think it was
19 Brnjica, although in the general area of Grmija there were parts of such
20 missiles found. So the general area of Pristina, Gornja Brnjica , Donija
21 Brnjica, the general area of Devet Jugovica, and other parts of on the
22 outskirts of Pristina. We collected such missile parts. I even wanted
23 to present you with a list of those parts. We put up an entire
24 exhibition in front of the building command, both Siptars and Serbs could
25 see it. At the time it served as an encouragement to the citizens in
1 order to convince them not to move out. We were trying to tell them,
2 well, if we are holding these pieces in our hands, then they are not a
3 danger to you, but it seems that we were wrong believing they wouldn't
4 leave no matter what.
5 Q. So if I understand correctly, sir, your testimony is that you
6 picked up a projectile or at least parts of a projectile that had fallen
7 from a plane and presumably not exploded, and you not only carried it
8 around yourself but you brought it back to show to civilians; is that
10 A. My primary intention was not to show it to the civilians. We put
11 them there in front of the building so that we could see them and whoever
12 would pass by, Serb, Siptars, whoever would pass by. Let the population
13 see them, that's why we brought them there. You say unexploded, I don't
14 know how come you said that because I never said that. I guess that I
15 have enough military training to know not to take any unexploded
17 Q. Well, perhaps it's a simple question, sir, but if it had
18 exploded, then would you have anything to bring back?
19 A. Of course, of course I would. Do you know of the theory that
20 there is no perpetuum mobile so you can find scattered about pieces on
21 the ground. Even when aircraft exploded, there were parts scattered
22 about in a wide area. To this day, there are some parts of that aircraft
23 at the museum in Surcin near Belgrade. There's always something left.
24 Q. Sir, just before we move on, there's something I'm having trouble
25 understanding. You just testified that your primary intention was not to
1 show it, these projectiles, to civilians, but if we look up to line 15 of
2 page 21, you in fact, said something to the effect that at the time you
3 put these, used these projectiles as an encouragement to the citizens. I
4 see I've lost the reference on the page, but it appears, sir, that you
5 just testified that you put these pieces of projectiles in front of your
6 building in order to show to civilians?
7 A. Viewed from this distance, that's exactly the way it seemed. If
8 we are standing by them, then there's no reason for civilians to run away
9 from them. Let them see what was thrown on all of us, irrespective of
10 ethnicity. That was done from submarines in the Mediterranean, from the
11 Adriatic Sea, from the air. Let them see what was being thrown at all of
12 us together, so now what is in dispute there? The fact that they saw it?
13 That we all saw it? That there is television footage showing that? TV
14 Belgrade recorded that, and then it was broadcast by media all over the
16 Q. I think your position is clear, sir, and what you've said is
17 that, just to back this up, sir, you've spent your career in the
18 military, you certainly understand and know projectiles well, and you
19 know what would be dangerous and what would not, and you took these
20 projectiles and you, in fact, put on a display to show the civilians of
21 Pristina that there was nothing to fear here. Is that fair to say, sir,
22 I think I just repeated your evidence back to you?
23 A. Well, no, no, I said what I said, and now the way you recounted
24 it doesn't really turn out exactly the way I had put it, but the point is
25 that it wasn't only me. My associates as well were involved in this. I
1 didn't go to pick all of this up by myself. It's not that I just
2 happened to know that these projectiles were found somewhere. I was -- I
3 received information that there were pieces in various parts and then I
4 went there with my officers and NCOs and also the British KFOR troops saw
5 that because they came there, they took up the area around the mosque.
6 When I left, as I was leaving, I saw them see the projectiles too.
7 Q. So sir, what you've said, again just to sum this up and put it
8 back to you, you, sir, as a man who spent a career in the military,
9 picked up and handled parts of a projectile that you say contained
10 depleted uranium, you then brought that back, and you bought on a display
11 to show to the civilians that there was nothing to be feared here. So
12 surely then, sir, civilians, Albanian civilians, would not be fleeing
13 because of depleted uranium fragments that had been dropped on Kosovo.
14 Do you agree with that? Is that fair to say?
15 A. All I do not agree with you that that is the way you can put it.
16 There were areas because they were marked or rather, our units had the
17 duty to mark certain areas especially units that were in charge of PN
18 HBO, that is to say, anti-nuclear chemical warfare focused on the 52nd
19 Battalion, the ABHO Battalion that was commanded by then Captain 1st
20 Class Aleksic Andric. Areas were marked, then the possibility was
21 indicated, or rather, before the aggression there was certain knowledge
22 of that possibility, I'm not sure now, but I think that the media also
23 reported about that possibility. Not only in our country in Serbia or
24 rather, in Yugoslavia but also worldwide, the projectiles with the
25 depleted uranium could be used, and after all 30.000, over 30.000
1 projectiles were used in Kosovo and Metohija or rather, our country that
2 was established later on. That is the figure as far as depleted uranium
3 is concerned.
4 Q. Let's not engage in a wild speculation here, sir. What I'm
5 saying very simply is, at first, you a trained military man, someone who
6 knows projectiles well and is surrounded by people with expertise, you
7 even talk about chemical units, you are saying you went and picked up
8 fragments that contained depleted uranium, so obviously you are not
9 fearful and had apparently no reason to be fearful at that time given
10 what you knew, correct?
11 A. Well, I would not agree with all of that that you said because I
12 mean, well, I'm not much of an expert for that. I'm an expert in a great
13 many other things in the military, but I knew that in addition to other
14 things. I expressed an interest, and after all, I passed a test in that
15 area. I even took tests in the field of the air force in general in the
16 navy, et cetera, so this is an auxiliary thing as far as I'm concerned,
17 but there's no doubt that I know a great deal. Irrespective of that
18 knowledge, I did what I did, and it wasn't my first time. I knew that
19 explosives were dangerous, but once in 1972 I had a small accident in
20 respect of that and after all, many people do things against their actual
21 knowledge and then they suffer the consequences. And I don't see
22 anything that is questionable in all of this that I've said.
23 Q. Very well, sir. Let's of move briefly now, if we can, to a
24 different topic. You testified, sir, about some leaflets that were found
25 in Pristina that had asked the Albanians to leave the country. Do you
1 recall testifying to that effect?
2 A. I do recall that.
3 MR. BEHAR: If we could see P419. Also actually if we could see
4 it in the original Albanian.
5 Q. Sir, is this the leaflet you were referring to? It appears to be
6 the same in content as the exhibit you referred to in Milutinovic, but
7 perhaps you can tell us?
8 A. Yes, yes, that's the leaflet. That's it. You can see the red
9 colour now as opposed to earlier on, so yes, that is the leaflet.
10 Q. And, I just want to be clear, sir, before we move on, on
11 Wednesday when us testified you mentioned that NATO had dropped leaflets
12 from a plane, but that wasn't this KLA leaflet which -- that you
13 discussed in your Milutinovic testimony, was it? Let me restate the
14 question. It wasn't this KLA leaflet that was dropped from a NATO plane,
16 A. Most probably it wasn't. I cannot confirm whether that was or
17 was not the case, but most probably that was not the case because when
18 these leaflets were found, at that time I have no information to the
19 effect that they were seen in the air or found in the air. They were
20 found on the ground, as opposed to the leaflets or flyers that were
21 dropped from planes because you could see them falling after NATO
22 aircraft would fly by especially B-52s.
23 Q. Right.
24 MR. BEHAR: And perhaps if we could see, this is again from the
25 Djordjevic trial, T-11378.
1 Q. This is the testimony of Milos Dosan. Sir, you may be familiar
2 with him. He states, this is at line 22, looking at the same leaflet:
3 "Yes, I'm familiar with this leaflet, but it was not dropped from
5 Again he reiterates that a couple of times. Is that consistent
6 with your understanding as well?
7 A. I know General Milos Dosan, he is a good friend of mine from the
8 days of the aggression and later on as well. As for this particular
9 statement, I would like to ask you to repeat it to me so that I could
10 give you a more precise answer.
11 Q. Certainly, sir. I'm really just showing you Mr. Dosan's
12 testimony. He had indicated on several occasions that he was familiar
13 with this leaflet but that it was not dropped from an aircraft.
14 Actually, if we can scroll down to 11379, line 19. He says there:
15 "These leaflets were found across town, they were not dropped
16 from aircraft, and an officer brought them to the command."
17 Again, is that consistent, sir, with your experience? These were
18 not leaflets that were dropped from aircraft and were, in fact, found
19 throughout town?
20 A. My experience should be similar to that, or rather, I assume that
21 it had not been dropped from aircraft because the persons who brought
22 this leaflet to me, and I have already said that I had found a leaflet
23 like that by myself in Pristina, so the persons who found this one told
24 me that they found it on the ground. I never looked up and I did not see
25 it falling from an aircraft. So it is my assumption, therefore, that it
1 had not been dropped from an aircraft, and I think that the assumption is
3 Q. Now, it was, in fact, a practice that the MUP sometimes used to
4 distribute leaflets to the population, correct?
5 A. Well, I'm not aware of that practice. I didn't observe it, at
6 any rate. If you have some information, well, I cannot go into that. I
7 do not remember that because that was not within my job description to
8 register that and remember that. Even if that did happen, I personally
9 do not remember it.
10 Q. For example, sir, in late 1998, the MUP used leaflets asking
11 certain Kosovo Albanians to return to their villages. Do you recall
13 A. I do recall that, but my memory is hazy. As for the
14 concentration of my thoughts, I did not focus on that. My preoccupations
15 were different, within my own line of work, that is.
16 MR. BEHAR: Can we see P483, please.
17 Q. Perhaps this may be familiar to you, sir. If we just look at
18 page 2 at the bottom, it's the first bullet point under the third section
19 there. It says -- this is actually diplomatic correspondence from the
20 Austrian embassy, sir, but they're addressing the point that we just
21 discussed that you recall but you said your memory is a bit hazy. It's a
22 comment that they say:
23 "Text of MUP flyer and way of distribution not the right way to
24 encourage the return of IDPs."
25 And what that's referring to is the MUP's use of flyers, as we've
1 discussed, to communicate with the Albanian populace. Perhaps that may
2 not refresh your memory too much, but does that assist you in any way in
3 remembering anything about this flyer, or this practice?
4 A. Thank you for this guidance. However, as regards this document,
5 I can hardly be of any assistance to you. It's not for lack of wanting.
6 I mean, I would really like to help you, you but objectively speaking I
7 cannot hardly say anything to you about this document because I haven't
8 got a lot of information about it or rather, I have no information. I
9 told you that I was involved in a different line of work. Irrespective
10 of that, I have no recollection of this. I am available to you to answer
11 all your questions that have to do with things that I do know, but I
12 don't think that I can be of much use in this particular regard.
13 Q. Thank you, sir. I think you've told us what you recall, and I
14 appreciate that. As someone who has extensive experience in the army,
15 sir, would you agree that propaganda is a tool that's sometimes or often
16 used in times of war?
17 A. Yes, I fully agree with you on that.
18 Q. And, in fact, sir, we've had specific evidence in this case that
19 the Serb forces distributed these leaflets, the KLA leaflet that you were
20 looking at, as part of a propaganda campaign to have the Albanians leave
21 Kosovo. I'll take you to a specific passage.
22 MR. BEHAR: If we could see, this is again from the Djordjevic
23 case, it's T-2232. So just to be clear, it's the transcript reference
24 from Djordjevic T-2232. It's witness -- it's the testimony of Adnan
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If this is Adem Demaqi [as
2 interpreted], is he a well-known terrorist. He was convicted on several
3 occasions and served over 20 years in prison in Yugoslavia.
4 MR. BEHAR: I'll give you a chance to comment on that. What I'm
5 interested, sir, is a comment on the content of what he said, not on his
6 general reliability.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
8 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I thought that the
9 interpreter had indicated to us that there was a mistake. We heard that
10 that was the witness Adem Demaqi who was heard in these proceedings. I
11 would just like to tell my colleague Mr. Behar to know that I mean, so
12 that he could tell us exactly what the name of the witness was, because
13 obviously it wasn't heard properly.
14 MR. BEHAR: I appreciate that, for my learned friend. It was
15 Adnan Merovci is the witness.
16 Q. Sir, this is the testimony of Mr. Merovci. You may know him, he
17 lived in Pristina, and he worked closely with Mr. Rugova. I'd like to
18 have your comment on this passage, just on the content of what he is
19 saying. If we look at line 20, he's asked:
20 "Did you have the opportunity to see any of these pamphlets that
21 were distributed?"
22 And he answers that he saw them in the hallway before the
23 entrance to his flat. And he goes on to say:
24 "I took it -- took a copy of it and saw that it was mere
25 propaganda, both in terms of its content and the way it was formulated,
1 general layout of the pamphlet. It contained many errors, and there was
2 a discrepancy between what it said and the insignia and the person who
3 had signed it. On top, there was a KLA insignia and then signed below it
4 was signed by Mr. Rugova. When, as you well know, Mr. Rugova led the LDK
5 and the Kosovo liberation army was led by other people. This shows that
6 it was a way to strike fear and panic among the population, because that,
7 the text was full of mistakes in Albanian which shows it was not done by
9 And he goes on somewhat in that vein but he is asked just below:
10 "And at the time did Mr. Rugova have any sort of contact with the
12 And he responds:
13 "No, he did not."
14 Now, sir, I wanted to invite your comment on Mr. Merovci's
15 testimony in that regard. First, that this was a document of propaganda.
16 Second, that there's a discrepancy between the KLA heading and a
17 signature by Mr. Rugova when, in fact, Mr. Rugova was not even in contact
18 with the KLA at that time. Can you comment on that, sir?
19 A. Well, since you are putting this question to me, I shall try to
20 be of assistance to you and to give you some comments.
21 First of all, this mistake that happened, the name I heard in
22 interpretation was Adem Demaqi, later on it was correct, so it's Adnan
23 Merovci, no problem whatsoever. As for that flyer or leaflet, I cannot
24 deal with it in depth in terms of which way this analysis is going,
25 whether it is this or that type of propaganda.
1 At any rate, it is propaganda. Now, what kind of mistakes are
2 involved and whether there are any, I cannot really help you very much on
3 that either. However, as to whether it is contrary to the ideas of the
4 so-called Kosovo Liberation Army, in fact, these are terrorists forces
5 and somebody called named them the liberation army or named them the
6 liberation army because that's what suited their purposes, and
7 Mr. Rugova, well, I really could not speak about that. That is a
8 generally known thing, that there were different lines involved, a soft
9 line and a hard-line, part of the movement, but all of these wings and
10 fractions were aimed in the same direction, and that direction is
11 terrorist activity, and the main objective was the cessation of Kosovo
12 and Metohija from Serbia contrary to international law and contrary to
13 the constitution, laws, et cetera. So these were wings that had some
14 views that differed but their objective was the same. By way of
15 assistance to you, that would be my comment.
16 Q. Sir, I know that you don't know who produced the leaflet, but
17 does it not seem clear to you that material like this would have been
18 produced by the Serb forces, because it was the Serb forces, if anyone,
19 who wanted the Albanians to leave the territory, not the Albanians. Do
20 you agree with that?
21 A. I do not agree with that. I completely disagree because, first
22 of all, this was never produced by the Serb forces, nor would have the
23 Serb forces ever produced that kind of thing. Especially not for the
24 purpose of moving the Siptars out of Kosovo and Metohija. The Serb
25 forces produced many things in order to have a larger population in
1 Kosovo and Metohija, not to have the population move out. The
2 authorities of Serbia built infrastructure in Kosovo and Metohija,
3 promoted health care, education, population levels. As a matter of fact,
4 they did their best to have the Serbian population move out and the
5 Siptar population remain there. That is tellingly demonstrated by
6 statistics and a whole lot of other things and after all, you have all
7 that information available to you here.
8 Q. Sir, you have already been clear that your position is that the
9 KLA wanted Kosovo to be an independent state for the Kosovo Albanians.
10 You just, in fact, said a couple of minutes ago that the main objective
11 was the cessation of Kosovo from Serbia. Given that state of affairs,
12 sir, why on earth would the KLA or anyone else on the Albanian side be
13 trying to get the Albanians to flee the country and leave it to the
14 Serbs? Does that make any sense?
15 A. It makes all the sense there is. You also put a question a
16 minute ago to that effect. Of course it makes sense. When you were
17 putting a question, you said that many in the world use propaganda, and I
18 confirmed it to be true. If it were not, Hitler would not have burned
19 down Reichstag and accused someone else for it. I guess you are familiar
20 with that. It's basic literature. That's what propaganda is for, to
21 accuse someone else for one's own benefit. And to twist the reality.
22 Such propaganda was used by the NATO Alliance as well, because
23 they were delivering pamphlets from the B-52 airplanes. Many lies were
24 contained there, for example, the name of Zeljko Pekovic, a major, is
25 stated as the commander of the 52nd Military Police Battalion. Whereas
1 it is obvious that this leaflet was drafted in NATO before the aggression
2 because that major in question handed over that battalion in June 1998 to
3 Major Zeljko Kopanja. He was the newer commander, whereas the old
4 commander went to attend the staff school and yet we had this leaflet
5 with his name dropped from a plane. Go ahead.
6 Q. I think I'm losing track of you a little bit, I think we may have
7 gone a little far off base. What I'm trying to understand, sir, is how
8 it would make any sense if the intention of the KLA was to create an
9 independent Kosovo, a state essentially as you are saying, for Albanians
10 and how did does it make sense for the KLA to be asking or demanding that
11 all the Albanians leave Kosovo? Those two things seem antithetical to
13 A. I don't think these are two contradictory things. They are in
14 close relation in order to put up an appearance of a humanitarian
15 catastrophe so that the NATO Alliance can have justification for their
16 actions. And I believe you also know how close the co-operation was
17 between the NATO Alliance and Siptar terrorist forces. You saw the
18 photographs in which Clark and Jackson and Tachi are shaking hands and
19 kissing. It's a generally known thing, those pictures toured the world.
20 Q. Sir, these leaflets were distributed -- I know I'm running
21 slightly over, maybe I'll just try and wrap up this area. These leaflets
22 were distributed at the outset of the bombing, correct?
23 A. Not correct. Whose leaflets were found all across the territory
24 of Pristina and the general area of it? That's what I know. Later on I
25 heard that they could be found elsewhere as well. However, I'm only
1 talking about Pristina and its general area, in the areas which were
2 bombed and in others which were not.
3 Q. But the leaflets that you were talking about, sir, that you found
4 or that were given to you, those were distributed after the bombing, as I
5 understand it, correct? I'm not sure we picked up the interpretation,
6 but your answer was yes?
7 A. No. Many leaflets were found. However, these leaflets, this red
8 one signed by Rugova and the so-called KLA or the Siptar terrorist
9 organisation, such pamphlets were found in Pristina. I've already told
10 you that I found one and brought it in. There were other leaflets that
11 were found thrown out of airplanes with the picture of the flying
12 fortress B-52. All unit commanders were called to surrender otherwise
13 they would be flattened by carpet bombing.
14 Q. Sir, I think we are going off topic here.
15 A. And after such a threat --
16 MR. BEHAR: Let me stop you. I do want to follow that up, but I
17 see we are already over our time for the break. Perhaps this is a good
18 time, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE PARKER: We will have our first break. We will resume at
20 five minutes past 12.00.
21 [The witness stands down]
22 --- Recess taken at 11.37 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 12.09 p.m.
24 [The witness takes the stand]
25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Behar.
1 MR. BEHAR: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Sir, just before we begin again, I'm going to ask if you can
3 really make an effort to focus on my questions and answer as briefly as
4 possible. I will give you a chance, as we go forward, to answer other
5 specific areas, but we do only have a limited amount of time.
6 When we left off before the break, sir, you had said that the KLA
7 may have distributed these leaflets or that they may have been
8 distributed, I suppose, by anyone to put up an appearance of a
9 humanitarian catastrophe to justify NATO getting involved. But, in fact,
10 sir, by the time these leaflets were distributed and certainly by the
11 time you encountered them, the NATO bombing had already started, correct?
12 A. I'll try to be concise in my answers so that we may save some
13 time together. I always try not to have to mention the abbreviation KLA,
14 and even if I do, you should bear in mind that I mean the Siptar
15 terrorist forces. It is true that they used any available means to
16 influence the population, depending on their goals.
17 Q. Sir, let me stop you again, I don't want to get off on the wrong
18 track here. My question is a very specific one. At the time that you
19 found this leaflet, had the NATO bombing already commenced?
20 A. The period when I found that leaflet, although I don't recall the
21 date, but it was definitely after the 24th of March, 1999, to the best of
22 my recollection, that is.
23 Q. Thank you, sir. Sir, when we had looked earlier at the KLA
24 leaflet, you could see that it purports to be from Ibrahim Rugova, signed
25 by Mr. Rugova as president of the Republic of Kosovo.
1 MR. BEHAR: If we could see P286, please.
2 Q. Sir, I can tell you that Mr. Rugova, in fact, testify about this
3 issue in the Milosevic trial, he was asked about this leaflet by
4 Mr. Milosevic himself.
5 MR. BEHAR: If we look at page 141. At line 9.
6 Q. Mr. Milosevic asks him:
7 "You are appealing to the population of Kosovo to go to Albania
8 and to Macedonia?"
9 Mr. Rugova responds:
10 "This is not true. This was issued in the first days of the
11 bombing, so as you can see in the document, here is the stamp of the KLA
12 and the signature of the president of Kosova, but it's not my document
13 and it's clearly not of the KLA. I don't know who did it, but it was
14 circulated in Prishtina. It was a forged document of some kind, either
15 the police, or Belgrade, or the troops, or other people, they did it."
16 So, sir, Mr. Rugova has been clear that he had no part in
17 drafting this leaflet, that it was not from the KLA. Were you aware of
19 A. I was not, but judging by the words of Mr. Rugova, there is
20 nothing in question here. He may well be right. He probably said the
21 truth, that he was not behind it. But as far as I could see, at least
22 from what I could hear you said, was that Mr. Rugova said "or some other
23 people." This phrase is very important. I don't know who created it,
24 but I can suppose. It is quite certain that it was created by the Siptar
25 terrorist forces.
1 Q. Sir, we've heard already evidence that these leaflets were
2 distributed to several parts of the city. The people who could circulate
3 freely within Pristina at the beginning of the bombing were, in fact, the
4 military, the police, possibly paramilitary groups and no one else. Do
5 you agree with that, sir?
6 A. I don't. Not at all. And this is why, I will be very brief.
7 Please bear with me. Take the example of Ms. Nazalie Bala and Miomir
8 Irovci [phoen]. These two witnesses appeared here, they freely moved
9 about town in Pristina itself and its general area. One day after
10 another. And one of them even left Kosovo and returned on a number of
11 occasions completely freely, and they could speak of what they saw in the
12 entire town, and Ms. Nazalie Bala even said that she went to work
13 regularly crossing the Dragodan bridge on the way. This is in brief
14 terms. One would freely move about Pristina and its environs.
15 Q. Sir, that was certainly not Ms. Bala's testimony. This Court has
16 heard that evidence, and I will return to that topic. Let me move to a
17 different topic. Sir, we discussed that one of your claims was that the
18 Albanians left Kosovo, and in particular left Pristina because of the
19 NATO bombing, we know that was part of what you said. Sir, you testified
20 that Gracanica was very close to Pristina, correct? Was about 8 or 9
21 kilometres away?
22 A. Yes, Gracanica is quite close to Pristina. Well, we can discuss
23 the term "relative," but I used to live there. I went to school to
24 Gracanica. In any case, one could say it's close.
25 Q. I know that you know the village well, sir, and I know that you
1 told us as well that is where your father from, but Gracanica is
2 essentially a Serbian village, correct?
3 A. For the most part in Gracanica, there has always been the Serbs
4 in the majority. There is a number of Roma families and a single Siptar
5 family. It is the Lekaj family, Nikola Lekaj's family. He lived there
6 before the aggression and continued working there during and after the
7 aggression baking bread. It is the only family there.
8 Q. I think you were just about to say it was the -- perhaps we'll
9 leave that, sir, but it was, in fact, the largest -- had the largest
10 Serbian population in Kosovo, correct?
11 A. Yes, yes. In terms of the number of Serbs, that village had the
12 greatest number of Serbs in Kosovo.
13 Q. And you told us on Wednesday that you had, in fact, toured that
14 town during the war and you were there several times, correct?
15 A. Yes, I did tour it and pass through it.
16 Q. You were also very clear in your testimony on Wednesday that
17 Gracanica was bombed very heavily by NATO, in fact, you said they were
18 essentially bombed every single day by NATO; is that also correct?
19 A. When I said that I had in mind the general area of Gracanica.
20 That is correct. Many citizens of Gracanica could feel the consequences.
21 Even the Gracanica monastery was damaged. Many walls cracked. It is an
22 ancient monastery from 1250.
23 Q. Sir, you're also very clear in your testimony that life in
24 Gracanica went on as usual, and I can quote back to you here. You
25 said -- this reference for my friend is at T-11539, line 16. You stated:
1 "So life went on in Gracanica just as usual although the area
2 around Gracanica was bombed practically every day by NATO."
3 And you repeated again at line 20:
4 "Detonations were heard every day but life went on unhindered as
5 much as possible."
6 So in fact, sir, this Serbian village was being bombed heavily by
7 NATO every day but life went on as usual, people weren't fleeing town,
8 they certainly weren't streaming across the borders, correct?
9 A. That is partially true. Many inhabitants of Gracanica moved out,
10 but a lot of people remained living there. In Gracanica there was even a
11 post office which covered the general area. In that post office
12 throughout the aggression all citizens came to collect their pensions
13 there. Among others, the Siptars from the village of Mramor, Slivovo,
14 Ajvalija, Suskovac [phoen], Dragovac, so even Siptars came there on mass
15 to collect their pensions throughout the aggression in the centre of
16 Gracanica unhindered, and Nikola Lekaj was baking bread there, he is a
17 Siptar from Gracanica, and he was never bothered whatsoever.
18 Q. I think we have your answer, sir, which is that people remained
19 living there, and we have your prior testimony that life went on as
20 usual. But, sir, it would seem a little backward to me that NATO was
21 fighting against Serb forces not against the Albanians certainly, one
22 would think that if anyone would flee the NATO bombing, it would have
23 been those Serbians -- those Serb civilians living in the Serb village
24 that's being bombed every day, but they did not flee, correct?
25 A. No, it's not. Part of the population fled, the other part
1 stayed. Well, they didn't flee, they simply moved away. Although, most
2 of them remained, some left though.
3 Secondly, Siptars as well as Serbs suffered from NATO
4 bombardment. One needs to bear in mind, there were casualties in both
5 groups, dead and wounded. There is statistical data and you could easily
6 get by that although I don't think that's the goal here.
7 Q. I know that, sir, and I certainly don't dispute it. If we could
8 move to another topic, sir. There were a couple of interesting slips or
9 what appeared to me to be slips that you made when you testified in the
10 Milutinovic case. I'd like to give you a chance to address them.
11 MR. BEHAR: If we could look at page 31 of your Milutinovic
12 testimony. It's D712. Page 31. Is that page 31?
13 Q. Sir, you were asked by counsel for the Defence about the
14 suggestion that Serbian artillery had fired from a position in Vranjevac
15 to Kojlovica village. And you responded that the army couldn't have
16 fired from there but you went on to say this, and this is at line 24 just
17 after the comma. You said:
18 "... And even if they had fired, if they could have fired, it
19 would never have used artillery against civilians, especially since
20 Kojlovica is a mixed village populated by both Serbs and Albanians --"
21 At that point you were interrupted by counsel. Do you recall
22 saying that, sir?
23 A. I recall having said so. I see nothing in question there, and I
24 certainly cannot any detect any slips. I can explain that in further
25 detail if you are interested to know.
1 Q. I'll --
2 A. There's no slip of the tongue.
3 Q. I'll ask you specifically, sir, but it would appear that what you
4 were saying in that line is that the Serb forces might have used
5 artillery against Albanian civilians but they would certainly not fire on
6 Serb civilians; is that accurate?
7 A. It's not. You say would or would not. I said what I said. It's
8 in the transcript. What is true is the following: Our artillery was
9 never there, and it never opened fire on Kojlovica. Such fire could not
10 have been seen by Nazalie Bala because it simply didn't happen, and even
11 if it had, she would not have been able to see it. From Lapska Street
12 Number 30, you cannot see that.
13 Let's move on. I also said that ultimately there is a Serb
14 population living there as well, that's yet another possibility.
15 Otherwise, they would never have opened fire on civilians. They never
17 Q. Sir, let's follow that up. You've been clear in your evidence
18 that from the outbreak of the war there were no tanks or combat units in
19 Pristina at all, correct?
20 A. As far as I know there were none. I didn't see them, and I had
21 no such information. There were no tanks in Pristina, and especially
22 not -- especially not similar to what I said about Kojlovica in the
23 locations for which it is claimed they were seen. And I insist on the
24 word "especially" so that you wouldn't turn this against me and try to
25 show it as a lie. There were none and especially not where people would
1 have you believe.
2 Q. Well, regardless of the use of the word "especially," sir, or any
3 other qualifying terms you were very clear when you testified in
4 Milutinovic that there was not a single combat unit deployed nor a single
5 tank anywhere in Pristina. And we can just very briefly look at that.
6 MR. BEHAR: If we can see D712, page 28.
7 Q. You say there, sir, at line 15. You say:
8 "As for the second, from the start of the aggression until the
9 end, not a single combat unit was deployed there, especially not with a
10 tank ..."
11 And you go on to reference the 15th Armour Brigade leaving town
12 and you go on in that sentence to say:
13 "... From that time on there were no tanks in Pristina."
14 And if we look at well, perhaps I won't take you to it, but at
15 page 4 of that same transcript, sir, you again had reiterated:
16 "There was not a single combat unit there," meaning in Pristina.
17 "... all combat units were relocated when the aggression began from the
18 town of Pristina."
19 Do you recall saying that, sir?
20 A. I do, I do.
21 Q. And you had referenced specifically the 15th Armoured Brigade and
22 you stated that they had moved out before the aggression, correct?
23 A. Yes, before the aggression.
24 MR. BEHAR: Can we see P928, please.
25 Q. You see at the top there, sir, it says "Pristina Corps Command?"
1 A. All right.
2 Q. If we look at the bottom of page 1, the final paragraph under
3 number 2, I'll just indicate the date on this document, sir, is the 1st
4 of April, 1999. It states:
5 "The 15th Armoured Brigade using part of the forces, secure
6 control of the territory in" names a number of villages, continuing on to
7 the next page in the English, and says, "the 15th Armoured Brigade deploy
8 part of the forces to the general area of Pristina and put on standby for
9 anti-landing combat in Kosovo plateau." And then it says: "Established
10 control of the territory and law and order in the general area of
12 Do you see that, sir?
13 A. I do.
14 Q. So it would appear, sir, that on the 1st of April, 1999, that
15 15th Armoured Brigade was ordered to deploy to the general area of
16 Pristina, correct?
17 A. Well, there's nothing for me to interpret here, that's the way
18 it's written. I can say neither yes or no. They deployed as written
20 Q. And their orders were to establish control of the territory and
21 law and order in the general area of Pristina, correct?
22 A. The task they were given was the one that is written here.
23 Q. And they are an armoured brigade, sir, certainly they could well
24 have used a tank or two or more if that was thought necessary, correct?
25 A. No, no. I said that in Pristina there weren't any tanks, and I
1 don't believe that the commander of the 15th Armoured Brigade at that
2 time was Colonel Mladen Cirkovic could have used those tanks outside the
3 zone that the corps commander ordered him to use them in. The corps
4 commander did not order him to use them in Pristina. That can be seen
5 from this document.
6 Q. Well, that's not what it appears to say to me, sir. It appears
7 that they were, in fact, specifically ordered to establish control of the
8 territory and law and order in the general area of Pristina. I believe
9 you already answered that was correct.
10 A. Yes, the most problematic word here is the one that says
11 "beyond." If it did not say "beyond," you would probably be right, but
12 this way you are not right.
13 Q. I'm not sure I'm following what you are saying, sir. Are you
14 saying that they were not empowered and, in fact, ordered to establish
15 law and order in Pristina generally?
16 A. It doesn't say generally, in the general area of Pristina, beyond
17 Pristina. Please, if the interpretation is not right, may it be
19 Q. Well, sir, I'm asking if you can tell us what you understand it
20 to mean.
21 A. I understand it -- well, now I'm going to tell you how I
22 understand it. I understand it in this way: The commander should deploy
23 his units in the general area, in the broader area. That is to say, at a
24 distance from the city centre, from the town proper. In locations that
25 lend themselves to his implementation of the tasks given to him by the
1 commander. So that is the area that goes beyond the town itself. That
2 is indeed the way it was.
3 Now, where he exactly deployed them and what is the general area,
4 the area beyond town, perhaps it's the commander or somebody from his
5 staff who could explain that best to you. This is how I understand it.
6 Q. And that's fine, sir. I'm not sure that we're at odds. I'm not
7 suggesting that the order required him to roll tanks down main street.
8 I'm just saying that their order was to establish control and ensure that
9 law and order was in place in the territory of Pristina, in that area. I
10 don't think we're at odds, but let me show you another document.
11 MR. BEHAR: If we can see --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, but we are at odds. Again you
13 uttered the word Pristina, and you avoided using the word "beyond" as in
14 broader area. That word should always accompany the word Pristina as is
15 stated in this document. So in the broader or general area of Pristina.
16 It's the adjective that's problematic here, or rather, it's not
17 problematic, it means that it wasn't in Pristina itself. That means
18 outside, beyond Pristina.
19 MR. BEHAR:
20 Q. And yet their orders, sir, were to maintain law and order,
21 presumably not by sitting outside in an isolated area. Sir, I don't want
22 to go back and forth on this, I think we have your position.
23 A. Your assumption is right on that. And there is nothing
24 controversial about that that they maintained law and order, because law
25 and order needs to be maintained for all citizen: Serbs, Siptars, Romas,
1 everybody. That is general interest and that is probably the way the
2 commander understood it as well.
3 MR. BEHAR: Very well, if we could see 6D1470. If I can just
4 have a moment's indulgence. I think it may be P896. I apologise for
6 Q. Sir, this is an order from the Pristina military district from
7 the 27th of March, 1999. And let's start by looking at Tasks under
8 number 2 at the bottom of the page. You can look at the first two items.
9 Very first thing it says, sir - and we'll go on to look at the next page
10 in a moment - the first thing it says is: "To protect the Serbian
11 population." Do you see that?
12 A. I see that.
13 Q. Then underneath that it says: "To guard roads, military
14 installations, and other features." Do you see that as well?
15 A. I see that.
16 Q. And one would think, sir, that in order to guard roads, might
17 also involve the use of roadblocks, might it not?
18 A. Is that your question? May I answer?
19 Q. Yes, please.
20 A. Well, this is my answer to that question: First of all, this is
21 a document, as you can see it as well, was not written by me. I cannot
22 see the signature down here. Could you please tell me who signed this
24 Q. Let's actually look to the second page, sir, and we can actually
25 go through the document in more order. Perhaps we can jump to the last
1 page so you can see the signature. It's Colonel Pesic.
2 A. I see it. I see it. I understand. That is the commander of the
3 Pristina military district Colonel Zlatomir Pesic. So it is his
4 document. In relation to this, I can just tell you what my opinion is,
5 otherwise, I cannot interpret what it was that the commander -- very
7 Q. I want to give you a chance to look at the document in a bit more
8 detail, I think that's fair.
9 MR. BEHAR: If we could look at page 3.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.
11 MR. BEHAR:
12 Q. It's at number 5.4. You can read that, sir, but I'll read it in
13 English as well, it says:
14 "The 50th Military Territorial District shall guard military
15 facilities in Pristina and in co-ordination with forces of the MUP and
16 internal security shall protect features of importance (hospitals, post
17 offices, TV, and radio stations)." And it also says: "It shall protect
18 the Serbian population in the southern part of the town of Pristina."
19 Do you see that, sir?
20 A. I see that.
21 Q. So here the 50th Military Territorial Detachment is tasked not
22 only with guarding facilities in Pristina but with protecting the Serbian
23 population in the southern part of Pristina, correct?
24 A. I see what is written there, and I hear what I hear.
25 Q. Sir, these are just a couple of the orders that we have in our
1 possession. But in fact, I put to you that as of the end of February of
2 1999, the VJ had already begun deploying large numbers of tanks, APCs,
3 and troops surrounding Pristina; do you agree with that?
4 A. I do not agree with that. And it's not correct. It's not a
5 question of me disagreeing or not agreeing, it is simply not correct.
6 Q. Sir, you have testified yourself that there were many KLA attacks
7 after the war started, correct?
8 A. Yes, there were many attacks.
9 Q. And one would think that with KLA attacks taking place in and on
10 Pristina generally, and given the taskings, just the two taskings you've
11 already seen, that the VJ would need to be ready to respond, correct?
12 A. Yes. The VJ was ready to respond, and it was supposed to
13 respond. The problem is that in many such terrorist attacks neither the
14 army nor the police responded. You may recall that I told you when
15 Colonel Nikolic was wounded and when the composites got killed and four
16 policemen were killed in one and three policemen were wounded in another
17 neighbourhood in Pristina and the police did not kill a single terrorist
18 when all of that happened.
19 Q. But the problem, sir, is that it's not just that you said that
20 they didn't respond. It's that you were clear and you repeatedly said
21 that there was not a single combat unit there, and that's obviously not
22 the case.
23 A. I said what I said, and I stand by it. It depends on who means
24 what under the term "combat unit." You know that in relation to that,
25 what is not combat is sometimes combat. I know full well on the basis of
1 the doctrine of our army and law and regulations what combat units are.
2 Somebody else does not understand it that way. Just like there is the
3 problem of excessive use of force. Some people assess it in one way and
4 others assess it in another way. Some people assess excessive use of
5 force when a single machine-gun is used; whereas, others do not consider
6 excessive use of force even when you use an atomic bomb. So from the
7 point of view of our doctrine in Pristina, there was not a single combat
8 unit, and that is what I stand by.
9 Q. I think we have your position, sir. Let's move on.
10 You testified very directly again, sir, in the Milutinovic case
11 that there was no destruction of Albanian religious buildings. You
12 repeated that again today. No destruction of Albanian religious
13 buildings, certainly no destruction of mosques. Do you recall that, sir?
14 A. I do. And indeed there was no destruction.
15 MR. BEHAR: Can we see P01136, please. Page 9.
16 Q. The building depicted here, sir, on the screen, that's the
17 Emperor's Mosque, correct?
18 A. That is the Emperor's Mosque. It's probably the Emperor's
19 Mosque. There were discussions as to which mosque this was, if it's near
20 the high school Ivo Lola Ribar and near the watch-tower in Pristina then
21 it is the Emperor's Mosque.
22 Q. And, in fact, sir, you went to high school 10 metres away from
23 that mosque on that site, correct?
24 A. Well, if that's it, I saw it all the time. Before the
25 aggression, and during the aggression. I had occasion to see it many
1 times and to participate in securing it from Siptar terrorists.
2 Q. It was also close to your command post, correct?
3 A. Yes, yes, it was.
4 Q. Now, sir, you did identify this mosque in the Milutinovic case
5 and you at that time were also able to describe it.
6 MR. BEHAR: If we look at D712.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.
8 MR. BEHAR: If we can see page 116, please.
9 Q. At line 18, you said:
10 "As for the right-hand part of the picture where the flames are,
11 that's not the mosque."
12 And Judge Bonomy asked you:
13 "Well, is it the historical archive of the Islamic community?"
14 And you responded:
15 "Possibly. That's where a similar building was, and close to it
16 is Sahat Kula, the watch-tower."
17 And you pointed out that that adjoining building wasn't the
18 mosque. And Judge Bonomy then asks you --
19 MR. BEHAR: Actually if we can go to the next page at the top.
20 Q. He asks you:
21 "Can you not say whether this was the Islamic community's
22 historical archive?"
23 Your answer was that you weren't sure precisely whether that was
24 the archive but you knew the building very well. Do you recall that,
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. And you've obviously seen from that photograph, sir, that the
3 building was engulfed in flames, correct?
4 A. On the picture you can see flames.
5 Q. So it would appear, sir, that your claim that not a single house
6 of worship or religious building was either damaged or destroyed was in
7 fact not correct, do you agree?
8 A. I disagree with you. Quite fully. That is absolutely not true.
9 And please allow me to explain why it is not true. If you allow me then
10 I may start now.
11 Q. You may explain, sir, but please if you can, keep your answer
13 A. I'll do my best to be very brief, and I'm sure that I will keep
14 my answer shorter than your question.
15 I asked Judge Bonomy then when that building was set on fire.
16 And he said, and you can read it there, that that was on the 15th of
17 June. I said that I was in Pristina then as well, and that I did not
18 notice that. If it was on the 15th of June, then it is certain that it
19 wasn't set on fire by the members of the police or the members of the VJ.
20 Then I went on to say that that mosque, the Emperor's Mosque at that time
21 just like the mosque near my command post, this one was nearby as well,
22 it was secured by English KFOR troops who entered it then. They put sand
23 bags in front of all the mosques and guarded them with weapons. And I
24 said that they took such good care of it that even a car of a friend of
25 mine, Dragan Lazic, that was parked right in front of the their eyes and
1 Siptar terrorists stole that car. Well, that is exactly how they
2 protected that mosque from the Siptar terrorists.
3 It is possible that they did it together and they allowed it to
4 be set on fire. The army and the police would never have allowed that
5 kind of thing to happen. While we were providing security there, not a
6 single place of worship was destroyed, and I continue to stand by that
7 that during the aggression not a single Islamic place of worship in the
8 town of Pristina was damaged or destroyed, and that is the truth.
9 Q. Sir, I see that now you seem to be acknowledging that this mosque
10 was damaged or destroyed, or certainly the adjoining building was
11 destroyed. But that's not even what you said before. Maybe that you are
12 trying to --
13 A. The mosque was not destroyed. And none of what I said is in
14 dispute. After the English KFOR troops entered, then it was under them
15 that this mosque was set on fire, if it was set on fire at all. I said
16 that I did not see it. If that did happen, it happened only when the
17 English KFOR forces entered. After the entrance -- entry of the English
18 KFOR troops, the entire provincial library in the centre of Pristina was
19 set on fire for days it was ablaze, and all of the citizens of Pristina
20 saw that the library was burning for days, and all of this while English
21 KFOR was providing security. Now, that's the truth, sir.
22 Q. There's a couple of problems with that, sir.
23 MR. BEHAR: I see my friend is on his feet.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
25 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I waited for the
1 witness to complete his answer. It seems to me that my learned friend,
2 Mr. Behar, is making assertions that cannot be derived from the witness's
3 answer. The witness said that he never saw the mosque that is in the
4 picture on fire. And I think that that can be seen in the transcript as
6 JUDGE PARKER: Continue.
7 MR. BEHAR:
8 Q. Sir, the problem is that it's not that you said that the Serb
9 forces didn't destroy any mosques, it's that you said generally as
10 regards the city of Pristina, I can say not a single house of worship or
11 religious building was either damaged or destroyed. So even if you had,
12 in fact, believed that somehow it was a co-operation between --
13 [Overlapping speakers] ... and the Albanians, you said, sir, that not a
14 single house of worship or religious building was damaged or destroyed,
15 and that's not the case, is it?
16 A. I don't agree with you. I said that, namely, that not a single
17 mosque or any Islamic place of worship in the territory of Pristina was
18 destroyed or damaged during the aggression. I hope that you know until
19 when the aggression lasted. It was up until the Kumanovo agreement.
20 This building that is next door to the mosque, so it's not the mosque
21 itself, I didn't see when that was set on fire either. But it was
22 probably set on fire and if it was, it was after the English KFOR entered
24 There is not any information to the effect that they killed a
25 single terrorist, whereas in the centre of Pristina, English KFOR killed
1 a few Serb civilians who were just walking by. They killed a few
2 innocent civilians. In front of the theatre, they killed an innocent
3 civilian who was just walking there, and there was blood all over in the
4 street. They didn't even kill or do anything to the terrorists that then
5 set this mosque on fire. Nothing. Now, that is the truth, sir. The
6 army or the police had no powers there whatsoever. Had we had authority
7 there then, the mosque would not have been set on fire, if it had been
8 set on fire, but that is something that I don't know.
9 Q. I think we have your position, sir.
10 Sir, when you testified in the Milutinovic case you used the term
11 "Siptar" repeatedly to refer to the Kosovo Albanians, and you, in fact,
12 did so throughout your testimony. Do you recall that having done so you
13 then engaged in a relatively lengthy exchange with the Chamber over the
14 question of whether the term had a derogatory or an inappropriate
16 A. I recall having discussed that. There's no doubt about that. In
17 relation to that question, I see nothing in dispute. One uses that term
18 to describe most of the population at that time in Kosovo. You saw
19 hundreds and thousands of documents before this Tribunal where you could
20 see that even my command and Supreme Command used the same term. I see
21 no reason for me to do otherwise, especially because it is not derogatory
22 and especially in view of the fact that the very population living there
23 call themselves that.
24 I always took into full account every single person living in
25 that territory. I never distinguished between them on the grounds of
1 religion or ethnicity, the then-constitution of the FRY and Articles 43
2 and 45 --
3 Q. That's fine, we don't need to get into the constitution.
4 A. Thank you.
5 Q. I noticed again, sir, you use the term "Siptar" repeatedly on
6 Wednesday to refer to Kosovo Albanian civilians. I think you have been
7 quite clear then in your position that neither then nor now do you see
8 anything wrong with you using that term; is that fair?
9 A. It is correct, I use that term. It is true that I use that term
10 because that population calls themselves that. In the waiting room, just
11 before I entered the courtroom, I saw that a part of Albania has the same
12 name, so even at this Tribunal there is such a word, "Siptar." I don't
13 see what the question is here. It's not derogatory whatsoever. I don't
14 know where you get this idea that it is. I use that word with deep
15 respect for the population that calls itself that.
16 Q. Let's go step by step then, sir. First the Serb word for an
17 Albanian is Albanac or Albanci, correct? I see you're nodding, if you
18 can just verbalise, are you saying yes?
19 A. I can't say what you want me to. I can tell you what I think is
21 Q. Just yes or no.
22 A. Therefore, this is your answer.
23 Q. That's fine. Sir, I don't need a long explanation. I just
24 actually asked you that, I saw you nodding your head, but because we have
25 a transcript here, we actually need to write down an answer yes or no.
1 So do I take it your answer since you were nodding was yes, and I can
2 move to the next question?
3 A. I didn't say yes. I didn't say no either. Please put your
4 question and listen to my answer. I'll briefly provide you with one. I
5 think that's only fair.
6 Q. So let me ask again, sir. Is the Serb word for an Albanian
7 Albanac or in plural Albanci; is that correct?
8 A. There's no problem about the words "Albanci" or "Siptar." Serbs
9 call the inhabitants of Albania the way they call themselves. In the
10 area of Kosovo and Metohija, Serbs call the Siptar population as the
11 population calls itself. I've explained already that I have nothing
12 against what they call themselves. This is what they call themselves.
13 It's in their dictionaries, in their documents. I don't see what the
14 dispute is. There's no pejorative or derogatory connotations to it. If
15 it is in any way related or disputed concerning the aggression or
16 terrorism, well, then I don't see it.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Behar, I think you can take it that the answer
18 to your question was yes.
19 MR. BEHAR: Thank you. Your Honour.
20 Q. And, sir, if I can cut right to the point then, let me just
21 suggest it to you as directly as I can. I'm going to suggest to you,
22 sir, that the word "Siptar" when used in the Serbian language by a Serb
23 person speaking Serbian, assumes a very negative connotation and that
24 specifically, sir, it has a cultural connotation of referring to someone
25 as a second-rank citizen. Is that something, sir, that you are aware of
1 because I might have thought that having grown up in Pristina you would
2 be well aware of that connotation?
3 A. That is not true. I'm amazed that you came to that conclusion.
4 It is incorrect. Why would that mean that they were second rate? People
5 I worked with always believed Siptars and other people were fully equal
6 in every aspect. This is what we abided by in our daily work and
7 practice. I have many friends among Albanians in Pristina and Kosovo and
8 further afield. I'll always have such friends, and I'll always like them
9 irrespective of what they are called. If they call themselves Albanians,
10 I will call them so. If they call themselves Siptar, I will call them
11 that way. That's my answer.
12 Q. That's fine, sir. And to be clear, I wasn't asking if you had
13 Albanian friends, I was asking about the term.
14 Sir, are you familiar with Zoran Andjelkovic? Do you know who he
16 A. Certainly. I know who Zoran Andjelkovic is. And I know what his
17 role was during the aggression.
18 Q. And he was, in fact, a president of the temporary Executive
19 Council for Kosovo-Metohija, correct?
20 A. Yes, he also commanded the civilian protection of Kosovo and
21 Metohija. He had his own Chief of Staff, et cetera.
22 MR. BEHAR: If we can see Defence 65 ter 1673, please. I'll need
23 page 58. I think, if it assists, it's D010-3011. Page 58, please.
24 Q. Sir, this is Mr. Andjelkovic's testimony from the Milutinovic
25 trial, that's the same trial that you testified in. He will again be a
1 witness in this trial. And I'll read out part of this to you, sir, but
2 the context is that Mr. Andjelkovic is taking great issue and great
3 offence to the suggestion that as a Serb he might have referred to the
4 Albanians as Siptars. And if we look at line 4, he states:
5 "Whenever I called the Albanians Siptars, all those who know me,
6 both Albanians and Serbs, know that I would never say anything like that.
7 I had a member of the temporary Executive Council replaced because he did
8 not agree with me that Albanians and Turks and so on and so forth should
9 be called members of ethnic communities, not even ethnic minorities, and
10 there's this insinuation being made in these documents to the effect that
11 I called the Albanians Siptars."
12 He goes on, sir, to say:
13 "This is just not true, this is an outrage both against me and
14 against my Albanian friends, people that I still see on a regular basis."
15 And then if we look down at line 23, just in case that wasn't
16 clear enough, Judge Bonomy asks:
17 "Are you saying that for you to refer to an Albanian by the use
18 of the word "Siptar" is offensive?" And he states: "Yes, in my
20 And he, in fact, continues to go on about how that term is
21 derogatory, sir, but I won't take you through all of it. Having seen
22 that, sir, do you recognise that the term "Siptar" as used in Serbian is
24 A. May I answer now?
25 Q. Please do.
1 A. A moment ago you heard me what I said, and I stand by it. I also
2 stand by what I said in the Milutinovic case. As for what
3 Mr. Andjelkovic said, there's no need for me to comment on it. That's
4 his opinion, and there's really no need for me to comment. I stand by
5 what I said. I don't want to change my testimony in that respect. I'm
6 deeply convinced that what I said is true. This is what I felt, this is
7 what I still think, and I think it is correct.
8 In any case, you know people change statements, testimonies.
9 Those same Siptars hold me in much higher regard, I believe, than they do
10 Mr. Andjelkovic, but that's also a hypothesis of mine. He is quite a
11 newcomer. He shared much less of their good or bad faith with them than
12 I ever did. So much for Mr. Andjelkovic and his testimony.
13 Q. Well, sir, I understand your point, you seem to be reiterating
14 that you believe that this term is not offensive. And we've dealt with
15 that. But even putting that aside, sir, surely if Kosovo Albanians are
16 offended by your use of that term, then the term is offensive, do you
18 A. Well, if one wants to insult them or themselves, but what if they
19 are not exchanging insults? When I was there, when I spoke with them and
20 when I was exposed to NATO bombing, they were never insulted by that. I
21 associated with them. I shared good and evil with them. And they were
22 never insulted. And I was never insulted on their part. I did tell them
23 if they wanted me to call them anything else, I could do so if they found
24 that of their liking. Why not? And why would I have to change my
25 previous conduct? I would still be doing that if I were down there. As
1 for how they feel after the aggression and whether this is now an insult
2 or not is something I don't know. I'm now completely outside that area.
3 I have no knowledge of their feelings nowadays.
4 Q. Just before we move on, sir, I'm not sure I understood part of
5 what you had said earlier. You said that the -- some Siptars hold you in
6 a higher regard and that they don't hold Mr. Andjelkovic in a high
7 regard. Can you explain that? Why don't they hold Mr. Andjelkovic in a
8 high regard?
9 A. I don't think they don't hold him in any regard, but I just said
10 that I believe they think better of me than of him for the simple reason
11 because he spent shorter time with them than I did. He didn't share as
12 much good and evil with them than I did. He only lived there for a short
13 while before the aggression and after the aggression.
14 Secondly, I make a distinction between myself and Mr. Andjelkovic
15 on several levels. First and foremost, I am a soldier who hails from
16 that area whereas he is a politician. You know that politicians have a
17 different view of some things nowadays than they did before. I, however,
18 cannot do that.
19 Q. Okay, sir, let's try to keep this moving. Sir, you've made a
20 number of observations and comments about the evidence of Nazalie Bala.
21 I notice you discuss her evidence in some length again unprompted earlier
22 today. I want to ask you some questions about the comments that you've
23 made both in the Milutinovic trial and on Wednesday and here again today.
24 First, sir, you have never been inside of Nazalie Bala's house, I
25 take it; is that correct?
1 A. I have never been there, although I would like to. Even if I had
2 been, there would have been nothing in dispute there. I did go down that
3 street, and I think I know where her house is. Well, or I'm not actually
4 sure whether I would be able to recognise her house or not.
5 Q. Right. Just to focus again sir, you've never been inside her
6 house, of course then you haven't been on her roof-top, correct? Where
7 she says that she made these observations?
8 A. That is absolutely correct. I have never been inside her house
9 and especially not on her roof.
10 Q. And, in fact, sir, you have told us, and I think this is clear
11 from your previous testimony, you couldn't even recognise her house?
12 A. I couldn't really recognise her house because I had never seen
13 it, but I can guess the location of it because I know Lapska Street quite
14 well. And it's not too long of a street.
15 Q. I know that you know the street, sir, and we'll come to that in a
16 moment. But you've provided testimony, sir, detailed testimony to this
17 Court that Ms. Bala could not possibly have seen what she saw from that
18 roof-top, correct?
19 A. She could not have seen it, what she says she did, from the roof
20 of that house. And especially not the village of Kojlovica. As I said
21 in the Milutinovic case, she would not have been able to see it even with
22 a telescope, that's what I said.
23 Q. Well, in fact, sir, she had binoculars. Let me take you through
24 this step by step. First if we can look at your testimony in chief on
1 MR. BEHAR: And if we could see D717.
2 Sorry, Your Honours, before I proceed, my colleague here observed
3 that I hadn't tendered the transcript of Zoran Andjelkovic, which I took
4 the witness through. I expect it will probably be tendered in the course
5 of the Defence case, but I think in terms of good record-keeping it would
6 probably be best to seek to tender it now.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Very well.
8 MR. BEHAR: That was the exhibit, that was D010-3011.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01541.
12 MR. BEHAR:
13 Q. Sir, we are looking at the map that you marked on Wednesday, we
14 can see where it's marked number 1 there, perhaps we could zoom in where
15 it says number 1. But you, in fact, just identified a wide swathe of
16 Ms. Bala's street on the map. And, in fact, that street which you can
17 see from that is quite a long street, in fact, continues not just in the
18 wide area that you circled but even on the other side of the cross street
19 to the east. Do you see that, sir?
20 A. I do.
21 Q. So, in fact, sir, that street goes on for many a blocks, in fact,
22 continues past a couple of major streets there, major intersections, and
23 it's a fairly long street, would you agree?
24 A. I wouldn't agree that it's a pretty long street. It's all
25 relative. For example, look at Proatoska [phoen] Street, it is much
1 longer than Lapska, then we have Gavrila Principa Street, much longer.
2 This is one of the shorter ones. And as for the difference between short
3 and long, it's a relative thing.
4 Q. Would you agree, sir, the part of the street you've circled
5 essentially a wide swathe of that street, do you agree? Is that fair?
6 A. When I circled it, I wasn't asked to circle the whole of it, but
7 to circle a part of that street, and I did. And you can see clearly on
8 the map how far it goes. Lapska Street is a whole street. And when
9 Nazalie Bala was circling it, she didn't circle the whole street either,
10 just a part of it. That's what I could read on that part of the map.
11 That's not in dispute. Lapska Street is where it says it is.
12 Q. I understand, sir. Let me see if I can be more specific. Sir,
13 you've made a broad declaration that from this street, Lapska Street,
14 that runs the whole distance that we can see in front of us, from that
15 street, Ms. Bala could not possibly have seen any of the places that she
16 described, correct? From nowhere along that street is what you've said.
17 A. You asked me that a moment ago and I said that from Lapska
18 Street, from her house and from her roof-top especially could not have
19 been able to see the village of Kojlovica, not from her house and with
20 the binoculars from the roof of her house.
21 Q. Sir, that's what you are saying now, but, in fact, it's already
22 been made quite clear, I think, you don't know where her house is, you've
23 never been inside it, you've never been on the roof. And what you've
24 said repeatedly in your observations is that one couldn't see these
25 places from that street, correct?
1 A. I said something that you are obviously trying to take note of.
2 I said that it is in a flat area. I explained that in relation to the
3 street's position and Vranjevac, it is in a flat area. That's not in
4 dispute. Is there a problem for anyone to go to Pristina to get up on
5 the roof and see whether Kojlovica can be seen or not, and that person
6 can tell you that and then you can call me to task about my testimony.
7 Someone goes there, takes a look, if you can see it you know. Milutin
8 Filipovic was not telling the truth as a witness. If you can -- if you
9 can't see it, then he was telling the truth. Why waste time? Although,
10 I'm more than ready to co-operate with you on that. Let's take as much
11 time as you have on your hands, and I'll give you my time.
12 Q. But, sir, the problem is, and let me put this to you again
13 because I'm not sure that I'm getting an answer to it, you don't know
14 where the house is but you've been very certain in your claims, your
15 repeated claims in the Milutinovic case and again here in the Djordjevic
16 case, that she could not have seen the things she saw. But what I'm
17 saying to you, sir, is that you do not know where on that street, and you
18 have not known where on that street her house even is; is that correct,
20 A. It's not. Her house is determined or its location was determined
21 precisely. Her street is not just anywhere along Lapska Street, it is at
22 number 30 and nowhere else. It is in Lapska Street and only there. From
23 that street, from that house, one cannot see Kojlovica. I was in
24 Kojlovica 40 years ago, 30 years ago, on the eve of the aggression, and I
25 know where it is. I couldn't see that part of Pristina from Kojlovica,
1 and I could not see Kojlovica from Lapska Street. Also, I couldn't see
2 the house where he she lived in. 40 years ago my teacher in Kojlovica,
3 Angelina Saranovic in Nusiceva Street, Number 7, in Belgrade, I used to
4 go to see her and I would see her at school in Kojlovica, so you cannot
5 see it. We should go to Nazalie Bala's house. Let's take a pair of
6 binoculars, let's see if we can see Kojlovica or not. Let's clear that
7 up once and for all. If you can see it, I'm wrong. If you can't, I'm
8 right --
9 JUDGE PARKER: [Overlapping speakers] ... understands the answer
10 to be that from nowhere in the street can that village be seen.
11 MR. BEHAR: Thank you, Your Honours. I appreciate that.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Sir, we are becoming impatient with your answers.
13 You do not seem capable of giving a short answer to a question. If you
14 listen to the answer, you can answer shortly. You are spending a very
15 great deal of time talking about matters that have nothing to do with
16 this case. That is not helping us to hear and understand what you want
17 to say. Please carry on, Mr. Behar.
18 MR. BEHAR: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Sir, I see that you have again tried to assert or now, in fact,
20 for the first time have tried to assert that you knew where her specific
21 house was and I see that you know it's number 30 no doubt from having
22 looked at her statement, but, in fact, sir, that's not what you said all
23 along and, in fact, I put to you it's been very clear all along that
24 you've only known the location of this street and that's what you've
25 referred to. Let me take you through that just so it's clear.
1 MR. BEHAR: If we can look at your testimony from Wednesday which
2 is T-11568.
3 Q. Sir, if we look at line 16 there you were asked:
4 "From Lapska Street can you see Kojlovica?"
5 Your answer was:
6 "The village of Kojlovica cannot be seen from Lapska Street."
7 MR. BEHAR: If we can scroll down to 11570, line 25.
8 Q. Again there the question is whether from the location number 1,
9 which was you circling a large swathe of the street, a person can see the
10 village of Lukare. You say, No, it's not possible, and again you say,
11 "from Lapska Street, you cannot see Lukare." And if you scroll down
12 again to 11572, line 20. Again, sir, "it is impossible. It is
13 impossible," you say. "From Lapska Street, can you not see the Orthodox
15 Now, sir, clearly there is a significant difference between
16 different locations that a house may occupy along a long street, but
17 without belabouring that point, let's look, sir, at the specific reason
18 that you gave why it would be impossible to see these places.
19 MR. BEHAR: If we can scroll back T-11568, line 16.
20 Q. You were asked there, we just looked at this, but I'll draw your
21 attention to it again. Sorry, actually if we look at line 20, that's
22 easier. You say:
23 "The reason you can't see it is because between Lapska Street and
24 Kojlovica there is no line of sight because of the lie of the land and
1 So, sir, you are talking about line of sight, lie of the land,
2 and buildings. But, sir, surely there is a significant difference to
3 line of sight or lie of the land or the manner in which buildings might
4 block your view depending where you are on that a long. Do you agree or
6 A. I would not agree with that. Independently of all of that, can
7 you not see Kojlovica from that place. I said very nicely that there is
8 no optical visibility. Please if necessary can experts go and establish
9 that, I claim that that is impossible and I claim that because I went
10 through that area and I'm convinced of that.
11 Q. Very well, sir.
12 MR. BEHAR: Your Honours, I do have perhaps five to ten minutes
13 left, but I see we are at the time for the second break.
14 JUDGE PARKER: We will have the second break. This will be a
15 break of an hour, and we would resume at 2.30.
16 [The witness stands down]
17 --- Recess taken at 1.34 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.
19 [The witness takes the stand]
20 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Behar.
21 MR. BEHAR: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Sir, just to finish off with this topic, I'd like to look at one
23 more map. It's a rather simple map.
24 MR. BEHAR: 65 ter 06049.
25 Q. Sir, this is a very simple map made by using Google maps, and it
1 shows the basic topography and the elevations of the area that you've
2 been discussing and that Ms. Bala discussed. And letter A on that map
3 shows us the rough location of Ms. Bala's house. Now, sir, do you see
4 Kojlovica on that map?
5 MR. BEHAR: I see my friend is on his feet.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
7 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, now we have a map on
8 the screen, but we don't know who entered things onto the map and by what
9 means and by what standard. It says here that already some markings were
10 made and that, for example, A should be witness Bala's house, but I don't
11 think that is customary. We should have a pristine map. Perhaps the
12 witness can answer, but I don't think it's been our practice so far.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Fortunately, Mr. Djurdjic, we don't often need to
14 Google. This is a fairly standard form Google map, and even I can see
15 from the indication of main streets of the town, that the circle with A
16 in the middle is in the approximate position of Lapska Street. The town
17 or village names appear to be a standard part of the Google map. So I
18 think accepting that there may be no particular proof of details at the
19 moment, nevertheless this has a sufficient appearance of normality and
20 authenticity to allow the questioning to continue.
21 Please do so, Mr. Behar.
22 MR. BEHAR: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. And, sir, I can indicate that actually on the map itself we put
24 in the address, you can see it at the top of the screen, of 30 Lapi or
25 Lapska Street, and that's the A that's come up, but would you agree, sir,
1 that the A is the approximate location of Lapska Street; does that seem
2 right to you? I see you're nodding, sir, I take that as a yes? Okay.
3 Sir, just to return to my question, do you see Kojlovica on that map?
4 MR. BEHAR: Perhaps the witness could be provided with a pen to
5 make some markings.
6 Q. If you could just circle Kojlovica. Put a number 1 next to that.
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. Now, it would seem clear from this map, sir, that Kojlovica is at
9 elevation, correct? In other words, it's up on a hill, in a hilly area?
10 A. Can you tell me what is it that you are asking me precisely?
11 Q. Well, I'm just asking you, sir, and you can see it from the map,
12 but I'll ask you the question in any event, Kojlovica is at elevation, in
13 other words, it's not at sea level, it is up high on a hill or in a hilly
14 area; is that correct?
15 A. It is not. And we can't see that on this map. Kojlovica, or at
16 least most of it, is in a flat area, and as for the names, you can put it
17 above, slightly under, or to the east, west, north, or south. The name
18 does not necessarily have to be in the same spot where the location is.
19 Just take a look at where it says "Pristina," it's in one place only of
20 the town. Topographic markings are slightly different to locations
21 themselves. They are usually placed next to a location. If we want to
22 have a centre of town marked precisely it has to be marked with a dot.
23 Otherwise on this map we have places at a higher altitude than --
24 Q. I think we have your position, and I'm not really concerned about
25 where the letters are on the map, sir. But you can see that that whole
1 area, it appears quite clear, is at elevation as compared to Pristina
2 which is flat.
3 My question for you is, are you saying, sir, that Kojlovica is
4 not at elevation, that general area?
5 A. Just above Kojlovica on several sides there are hills. Kojlovica
6 itself is not on the same altitude. Another thing that is important and
7 that is in colour on this map is as follows: Between Kojlovica and
8 Pristina and Lapska Street, there are obstacles that are higher than
9 Kojlovica and Pristina themselves. That is very important to note.
10 Q. We've covered the issue of obstacles, sir, we don't need to
11 return to that and if you can just stay focused on my questions. Let's
12 look -- I think we have your position there, sir.
13 Let's look at Dragodan. Can you indicate where Dragodan is there
14 on this map? I'm not sure that it's actually marked.
15 A. You can see it approximately here. That should be it although
16 I'm not positive.
17 Q. You agree, sir, that Dragodan is at elevation? In fact --
18 A. Most of Dragodan is, or at least a part of it, but not all of it.
19 Q. In fact, sir, there's an area called Dragodan hill, correct?
20 A. It is likely. Dragodan does exist but whether there is an
21 elevation or a hill, I can't tell you exactly.
22 Q. In fact, sir, it was Dragodan hill that Ms. Bala referred to. I
23 won't take you there, but I can leave this site, it's T-2289, line 14.
24 Now and how about Vranjevac, sir, can you indicate where that
25 would be on the map?
1 Sorry, actually before I do that, you did just circle an area,
2 Dragodan. The area that you circled, for Dragodan, can you just put a
3 number 2 next to that.
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. Thank you, sir. Now I'd asked if you could mark the area that
6 Vranjevac is in, if you could put a circle there and a number 3.
7 A. Vranjevac is quite large, and this map is not very good for me to
8 mark it. If you insist, I will, but one cannot establish exactly where
9 Vranjevac is. In terms of area size, Vranjevac is quite large. This map
10 is not very good for that. I marked it on the previous map. I think it
11 should be enough to compare. If you press me into marking it here, that
12 may not be so convenient not because of my lack of knowledge, but because
13 of the type of map this is, and it is not very -- a very good means to
14 mark such an area.
15 Q. That's fine, sir. It doesn't need to be pin-point accurate
16 marking, but if you can just indicate the general area that Vranjevac is
17 in on this map. Put a number 3. I won't hold you to it being exactly
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. If you can put a number 3.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. And that is also at elevation, is it not, sir?
23 A. Not all of it. Part of it is. The rest is not.
24 Q. Let me be specific then, sir. Both you and Ms. Bala refer to the
25 Vranjevac hill. I'm presuming that a hill is at elevation and is above
1 the things surrounding it, correct?
2 A. For the most part, yes.
3 Q. Sir, can you indicate Taslixhe on the map. Circle that area
4 broadly and perhaps mark it with a 4. It is actually labelled on the
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. Again it would appear clear from that map that that area is at
8 elevation just judging from the ridges which indicate elevation, do you
9 agree with that, sir?
10 A. The way it is shown here it appears to be, yes.
11 Q. And finally, sir, if you could indicate the location of Lukare or
12 Lukare on this map? If you can circle that and put a number 5.
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. Would you agree, sir, that Lukare and certainly parts of Lukare
15 are also at elevation?
16 A. They are not. Lukare is not at elevation.
17 Q. Well, in fact, sir, Ms. Bala stated that she saw a tank firing
18 from a hill in Lukare. Do you recall that?
19 A. I do. Lukare itself has no hills. Further afield there are some
20 though. This road goes through Lukare and the military warehouse is
21 right next to the road.
22 Q. Well, sir, if someone is --
23 A. The road between Pristina and Medvedje.
24 Q. Sir, if something is on a hill, then obviously it's at elevation,
1 A. Lukare is not at elevation. And the warehouse is not at
2 elevation. It is in a flat area next to the road. Around that, though,
3 there is a number of hills.
4 Q. Well, let's look then very briefly at what you said.
5 MR. BEHAR: If we can see - this is again from Wednesday's
6 testimony - T-11575.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Are you wanting anything done with this map?
8 MR. BEHAR: Oh, yes, sorry. Yes, I would seek to tender the map
9 at this time. Thank you.
10 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received, but we do bear in mind the
11 points made by Mr. Djurdjic in his objection, so don't overlook that
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the map will be Exhibit P01542.
14 MR. BEHAR:
15 Q. And if you look, sir, this is actually in your testimony in
16 chief, in fact, this is how it was put to you when you were asked to
17 describe the Lukare firing and what Ms. Bala said. The question is
18 beginning at line 11, Ms. Bala says on page 2341 of the transcript, line
19 22 and 23 and 24 and 25 that she saw a tank firing in the village of
20 Lukare firing from a hill there towards the hill of Kojlovica. So just
21 to be clear, there, sir, even as it was put to you, you are talking about
22 hills in that area. Is that consistent with your understanding of the
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 Q. Now, generally speaking, sir, would you agree that it's easier to
1 see something, certainly something at a distance when it's up on a hill
2 above you?
3 A. Yes, provided that between that elevation and the place she says
4 could be seen there are no obstacles. The village of Lukare is not on a
5 hill, do bear that in mind.
6 Q. You have already told us today, sir, that Lapska Street was in a
7 flat area, correct?
8 A. Yes, that's what I said.
9 Q. Very well. Now, sir, in a more general respect with respect to
10 your testimony, I've noticed that in a number of respects you've claimed
11 not just that you observe something happened, but that you had a very
12 direct and personal connection to it. So you spoke personally, according
13 to your evidence, to Albanians who told you that they were leaving
14 because of the NATO bombing, correct? You recall saying that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You testified that you looked out your window and saw people
17 moving in fake convoys, you recall saying that?
18 A. I don't recall looking out my window. If I said so, and I
19 believe there are audio recordings to double-check that, then I guess you
20 are right, but I really don't recall having said that I was looking out
21 my window.
22 Q. Well, we can look at that, sir, but you did certainly say that
23 you saw personally people moving in these fake convoys, correct?
24 A. I did say that, and it is correct.
25 Q. You say that you personally saw and handled depleted uranium
1 projectiles, correct?
2 A. Yes, I said that too.
3 Q. You said that you yourself were with General Lazarevic on April
4 27th and 28th, correct?
5 A. Yes, I said I was with him.
6 Q. As we've just discussed, you say that you personally know that
7 Nazalie Bala could not possibly have seen those observations that she
8 described and that you commented on, correct?
9 A. I said that from Lapska Street Number 30 or from anywhere in
10 Lapska Street, one cannot see the village of Kojlovica, and I repeat that
11 for the umpteenth time, that is correct.
12 Q. Very well, sir. I put to you, sir, that in making all of these
13 claims that you've, in fact, specifically tailored your evidence and
14 fabricated your evidence in order to assist the Defence case however
15 possible on each of those specific points. Do you agree, sir, or do you
17 A. Why would I specifically tailor anything? I see this as an
18 insult. I declare that I will tell the truth, and this is what I did.
19 And nothing else. I didn't make up anything. I only told you what I saw
20 or heard at the time it happened. End of story.
21 Q. Thank you, sir.
22 MR. BEHAR: Those are my questions for you. I know my learned
23 friend may have some follow-up questions.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Behar.
25 Mr. Djurdjic.
1 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Re-examination by Mr. Djurdjic:
3 Q. Mr. Filipovic, my learned friend insisted repeatedly on the claim
4 that from the Lapska Street you could see Lukare and Kojlovica and you
5 claimed that there's no line of sight. So can you explain to the Trial
6 Chamber why there is no line of sight from Lapska Street to Kojlovica and
8 A. Well, my answer to your question is very brief. There's no line
9 of sight for several reasons. One of the reasons is because there are
10 obstacles, natural and man-made obstacle between the two. So there is
11 not an optical line of sight, you cannot see you from one to the other.
12 And another reason is, well, despite the fact that it says there that the
13 events were observed from the attic of a house that has five stories, it
14 is indicated that two stories are underground and three are above ground.
15 As far as I know, two plus two makes four, not five, so if you have two
16 stories that are underground, then you can only watch something, observe
17 something from the second floor and not from the fifth floor, but the
18 basic key reason is that there are man made and natural obstacles.
19 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell me, if you were to stand in
20 Lapska Street and there's a straight line from there to the point above
21 Kojlovica, how far is it, what is the distance?
22 A. Well, I said at the time that it was about 5 kilometres. That's
23 likely the case.
24 Q. Thank you. Now, from Lapska Street if you look to Lukare in a
25 straight line, what would the distance be there?
1 A. I think it would be more than 3 kilometres, but I can't really
2 tell you. I took that road to Medvedje and Kacikovo, and I went there to
3 a visit the depot more than 3 kilometres.
4 Q. Thank you. You are an officer, a military officer. If you could
5 see something at that distance using a pair of binoculars, could you see
6 an object the size of a tank, see it and recognise it?
7 A. Well, I don't think that you could do that with a fair of
8 ordinary binoculars, but it's not the key thing here. There are man-made
9 and natural obstacles which prevent you from looking and seeing from the
10 point where the person claims was observing to the place where this
11 person claims the tanks were and where fire was opened from and so on, so
12 that is the key thing.
13 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Now, I would like us
14 to look at P1542. It's just been admitted. If we could look at it on
15 the screen.
16 Q. Mr. Filipovic, you marked under number 2, Dragodan. Could you
17 tell us where would the cemetery be?
18 A. The cemetery is not as high up as Dragodan itself, the village.
19 Q. Just a moment.
20 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can the witness go on
21 and make some additional markings on this map and then we can perhaps
22 admit is in that form? No?
23 JUDGE PARKER: It can be done as a separate exhibit. It would be
24 perhaps helpful if there was a another colour pen. You may have a blue
25 pen now, I believe.
1 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Just a moment, Colonel. Do you have a blue pen?
3 A. I have this pen here. I don't know what colour it is.
4 Q. Yes, you can go ahead.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. Very well. Could you please mark it 6, with 6. Yes, thank you.
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. Now, let me quote from Ms. Bala's statement at page 2341, lines
9 12 through 17:
10 "When I looked towards Dragodan from the terrace, I observed the
11 area close to the cemetery, and I could see the police forces moving in
12 armoured personnel carriers, trucks and other vehicles."
13 So if this is A and we know that this A, it's the house in Lapska
14 Street, this new technology is very accurate, what are the obstacles
15 preventing the witness Bala from seeing the cemetery?
16 A. Man-made and natural obstacles between Lapska Street, her house
17 in Lapska Street, and the site where the Serbian Orthodox cemetery is
18 located in Pristina.
19 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Now, I would like us to look at
21 JUDGE PARKER: Are you wanting this as an exhibit?
22 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Of course
23 that's why we made those markings.
24 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00719.
1 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Mr. Filipovic, can you see this marking number 1?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Is that Lapska Street?
5 A. No, unfortunately not.
6 Q. Very well. Now, tell me, if we look at where Lapska Street is on
7 this map, can you see the Dragodan cemetery?
8 A. This is not Lapska Street, but that doesn't change anything. You
9 cannot see the Dragodan cemetery either from this location or from where
10 Lapska Street really is. You cannot see the village of Kojlovica either
11 because of those obstacles.
12 Q. Thank you. The presiding judge, His Honour Judge Parker asked
13 the witness to circle the railway station, and it's marked with number 4
14 here. To the best of your knowledge, can you tell us where the railway
15 station actually is, if you can indeed see it on this map?
16 MR. BEHAR: I have an objection, Your Honour.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is not the railway station.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Behar.
19 MR. BEHAR: Your Honour, this is not, in my submission, a proper
20 scope of re-examination. This is something that could have been explored
21 in chief, but this is not anything that arises out of my examination.
22 JUDGE PARKER: I think it is in the context of physical
23 obstructions to views, so I would allow Mr. Djurdjic to continue.
24 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. Could you tell us now where the railway station is. First tell
2 A. The location marked with number 4 is not the railway station in
3 Pristina. The railway station is at a different location. It's to the
4 south-west of that location. If you allow me, I will mark the location
5 of the railway station on this map.
6 Q. But let us first explain that in words. If you go south-west of
7 this circle here, can you read on the map?
8 A. I can circle the location where the railway station is if you
9 allow me.
10 Q. All right. Go ahead.
11 JUDGE PARKER: With the blue pen.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is that the blue pen?
13 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. And I think you should mark it with number 5.
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. Mr. Filipovic, yes, you can see some buildings here where you
17 made this marking. Is it possible to see the cemetery from Lapska Street
18 given its position?
19 A. No, you cannot see the cemetery because there are natural and
20 man-made obstacles which make it impossible to see anything. And in
21 particular, this location marked with number 4, it's an overpass which is
22 higher than the rest of the structures there, and this is the overpass
23 that Bala used every day as she went to work in Dragodan.
24 Q. Now I would like to ask you something about Vranjevac.
25 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] If we could please look at D717.
1 I would actually prefer to see D011-2339. And I would like to tender
2 this into evidence, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00720.
5 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] If we could zoom in a little bit
6 from the middle of the page up. Yes. A little bit further up, if you
8 Q. Mr. Filipovic, can we see now the whole of Vranjevac, or should
9 we scroll down a little bit?
10 A. Yes, you can see most of it, but you could scroll down perhaps a
11 little bit.
12 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we then scroll down a little
13 bit. No, no, the other way. Down. A little bit more.
14 Q. I think that now we can see the whole of Vranjevac?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, I would like to ask you this, and I don't want to lead you
17 here. We can see a railway line which almost bisects this map going
18 north/south. Now, does this railway line skirt Vranjevac?
19 A. Yes. That's the railway line that goes from Pristina through
20 Podujevo to Kursumlija and then further down.
21 Q. Yes. Now, please take the pen and can you just mark the borders
22 of Vranjevac. And on the other side, north-west. Do we have it or not?
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. Mr. Filipovic, could you please place a number 1 next to those
25 borders. Just write number 1 so that we know that this first line that
1 you drew in marks the borders of Vranjevac?
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. Now, Mr. Filipovic, is the whole of Vranjevac located on a hill?
4 A. Vranjevac is on a hill on the slopes and then it also extends
5 into the plain next to the railway line.
6 Q. My question to you is this: You've shown us where the railway
7 line is. Can you tell us approximately where the top of the Vranjevac
8 hill is?
9 A. It's a little bit more to the north.
10 Q. More to the north than what we see here?
11 A. Well, at the edge.
12 Q. Of the map that we have here?
13 A. Yes, at the edge of this map next to the cattle market.
14 Q. Very well. Thank you. Now, from Lapska Street to the top of the
15 hill to the highest elevation, how far is it?
16 A. As the crow flies it's more than 2 kilometres, the straight line
17 is more than 2 kilometres.
18 Q. Thank you. Now, I would like to know this: Can you now draw in
19 where Lapska Street is?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. That's number 2.
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. You mentioned that there was a barracks that was relocated on the
24 eve of the war. Now, the barracks, was it here on the hilly side, or was
25 it beyond the hills on the other side?
1 A. The barracks was in the plain there where the
2 Pristina-Kosovo-Polje Road is. So if you leave Pristina and head towards
3 Kosovo Polje, you take what used to be Lenjinova Street, and to the right
4 right next to the Pristina-Kosovo-Polje railway line, that's where the
5 barracks was and that's where it is, in fact, to this day.
6 Q. Thank you. Does it have anything to do with the part of
7 Vranjevac that was attacked?
8 A. Topographically speaking, no, no, there's no connection
10 Q. Thank you. Here if you could just mark at the bottom, if you
11 could just mark the Vranjevac overpass.
12 A. Yes, I can see it, and I can mark it if you allow me.
13 Q. Please go ahead.
14 A. I marked the Vranjevac overpass, the one that goes over the
15 railway line, and I marked it with number 3.
16 Q. Now, from the beginning of the war until the end, did you ever
17 see on that overpass any armoured vehicles or tanks?
18 A. There were no armoured vehicles or tanks there ever and for
19 several reasons and I explained that.
20 Q. Yes, thank you very much. Please just focus on the questions
21 that I'm asking you and answer just to those questions.
22 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
23 tender this map into evidence.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. It will be received.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit D00721.
1 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. My learned friend asked you about the term "Siptar" used for
3 Albanians, and you have given us your explanation. I, myself, call
4 Albanians, Albanians, but I want to know what name did you use for
5 Albanians from the time when you were born until today?
6 A. I always called them Siptars because I found that in the
7 textbooks. I was taught by Siptars and that's what they taught me.
8 Q. And were these schools that you attended ethnically mixed?
9 A. Yes, my high school had seven classes in the fourth grade; four
10 in Serbian, two in Albanian, and one in Turkish. That was in 1967.
11 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at P869. Or
12 rather, P896, I'm sorry.
13 Q. Mr. Filipovic, this is an order of the command of the military
14 district dated the 27th of March, 1999, and it was shown to you during
15 the cross-examination. I wanted to ask you whether this unit, or rather,
16 these units of the military district had armoured combat vehicles?
17 A. Not a single one. The formation that was called the military
18 district of Pristina did not have a single one. That can be seen from
19 its book of establishment, and everyone knows that there was no such
21 Q. Thank you. My learned friend said that this order shows that
22 roads were supposed to be secured, so tell us what kind of security was
23 provided along roads by these detachments?
24 A. These detachments or rather, these military territorial units
25 carry out in-depth security activities for various roads, buildings,
1 et cetera. It's done in the following way: They will be deployed along
2 a road, and they will be at a certain distance but by their very
3 disposition they will make it impossible for Siptar terrorist forces to
4 attack these roads, et cetera. They had to be deployed in such a way
5 also because of NATO action against roads. If they were to be directly
6 on roads, they would be a direct target.
7 Q. Thank you. Do they have anything to do with the regulation of
8 traffic on the roads that they secured?
9 A. They had nothing to do with that at all. And that was not part
10 of their duties either. It was the police units that were in charge of
11 that, and they did that in accordance with regulations. They asked
12 citizens to show IDs and during these ID checks many policemen were
13 killed by Siptar terrorists throughout Pristina.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please now have P982.
16 No, 928 actually. Again, I'd like to ask if we could have a map.
17 D011-2339. Could we please zoom in on this little box or square. That's
19 Q. Can you find your way here, can you see or --
20 A. I can orient myself for the most part.
21 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in this box we have
22 the town of Pristina marked with the surrounding area.
23 Q. From the document that I asked for previously, P928, paragraph 2
24 was shown to you concerning the 15th Armoured Brigade. So it says --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We do not have the
1 document now in e-court any longer.
2 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Goles, Obilic, and Gracanica. Could you please underline Obilic,
4 Gracanica, and Goles?
5 A. Gracanica, number 1. Obilic, number 2. And Goles, Goles I
6 cannot find it exactly, but it should be roughly in this area. That
7 would be number 3. Number 3, Goles, the map is not very legible, but
8 Goles would be in that area roughly.
9 Q. So in number 2, in that area, or rather, the broader area of
10 Pristina, that is where forces had to be on the ready for anti-sabotage
11 fighting on this elevation, and you describe these three points to us,
12 that those were the points that were being defended.
13 Could you draw a line in terms of how you understand this broader
14 area of Pristina.
15 A. The broader area of Pristina would mean outside these features.
16 I will try to explain it by way of a circle, if you allow me to do so.
17 Everything outside this line is the broader area of Pristina.
18 Q. Could you please put number 4 on that circle.
19 A. The broader area is marked with a number 4.
20 Q. Let us try to make it as clear as possible. In relation to this
21 circle that you drew, where is the broader area?
22 A. In relation to the circle, the broader area is outside that
24 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honours, I'd like
25 to tender this document.
1 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00722.
3 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have P928, and
4 have a look at paragraph 4, and it's page 5 in the English version. It
5 is page 2 in the B/C/S. Could we have the end of the page, please.
6 Q. Could you please read paragraph 4 to yourself, Mr. Filipovic, and
7 could we please have your comments once you've read it?
8 A. Yes. "In all" --
9 Q. Not aloud. To yourself.
10 A. Thank you. I have read it.
11 Q. Could you please give us your comments? What does paragraph 4
13 A. In my view, it is basically clear, namely, that in all garrisons
14 and garrison posts and deployment areas, deployment areas first and
15 foremost, and areas of responsibility in co-ordinated action with MUP
16 forces, the military territorial units and the military investigating and
17 judicial organs, ensure the control of the territory and the functioning
18 of the authorities, prevent looting, theft, and other forms of crime, war
19 profiteering, protect the civilian population from robbery and establish
20 law and order. That was the task, very clear. It is put rather
21 generally, but it is very clear, and that was done throughout the
22 aggression. Of course, along with all the difficulties caused by the
23 activity of Siptar terrorists and the NATO air force.
24 Q. Tell me, are there any combat activities in these actions that
25 are ordered in paragraph 4?
1 A. No, there are just tasks that are spelled out in general terms.
2 In order to control the territory, ensure the functioning of the system
3 of government, protection of the civilian population, and that is what
4 the MUP did together with military units in a dignified and honourable
5 manner throughout the aggression.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have page 3 now in
8 the Serbian version.
9 Q. Could you please read the first paragraph on page 3 to yourself.
10 A. Yes, I can. I have read it.
11 Q. Thank you. First of all, what are garrisons and garrison posts?
12 A. In accordance with the rules of service of the Army of
13 Yugoslavia, there were garrisons and garrison posts, and that is what the
14 regulations said, that there was this classification. Now, on the basis
15 of this, we can see that the military police were supposed to be of
16 involved as well.
17 I omitted to say a few moments ago that for checking roads and
18 securing roads, in addition to the police units carrying out checks there
19 was also the military police who have their own line of work. So they
20 co-operated there in that field, and they provided for unhindered traffic
21 and checks.
22 Q. One more question. You were the temporary commander of the
23 Pristina garrison during the war. I would be interested in one
24 particular thing. The area of responsibility of a unit is one thing, I'm
25 referring to the brigade, and the place where it is is a different
1 matter. In every brigade was there also a company of the military
3 A. Yes. In units at brigade level as far as I can remember at
4 regimental level as well there were military police units that had their
5 specific tasks especially in this period of aggression. They had the
6 task of providing law and order and checking traffic, providing security
7 for the commander, and the forward command post and carrying out other
8 tasks in accordance with the rules of service and the military police.
9 Also they were supposed to safe-guard scenes of crime, they were supposed
10 to be involved in investigations of crimes and so on.
11 Q. Thank you. With regard to these tasks and the military police
12 units as such, did they carry out any kind of combat tasks?
13 A. No, as far as I know, they were not engaged in any kind of combat
14 tasks. Only the tasks that I referred to. They did that every day and
15 in that area there was no abuse whatsoever.
16 Q. Thank you. In your own garrison, during the course of the war in
17 Pristina, did the military police carry out these functions that you
19 A. The military police carried out these functions and that
20 primarily pertains to the 52nd Battalion of the military police that was
21 deployed in the broader area outside the central part of the town of
22 Pristina, and they carried out these tasks and also this was done by the
23 15th Brigade, the 243rd, and other units who are our neighbours.
24 Q. Thank you. Mr. Filipovic, I would be interested in the
25 following: During the war apart from Mr. Demaqi, who you mentioned, did
1 you perhaps see in Pristina some other leaders of the Albania separatist
3 A. Certainly. There were many. I've already mentioned Adem Demaqi.
4 There was Veton Surroi and many others who were in favour of Kosovo
5 becoming a republic. There were also people there who had had been
6 sentenced to prison terms for terrorist acts and after leaving the prison
7 they lived unhindered in Pristina or elsewhere. They could stroll about
8 town without any problem. The Siptar members, I mean.
9 Q. My learned friend asked you about the village of Gracanica and
10 its function during the war. What about Ajvalija, where is it?
11 A. Ajvalija is along the road between Pristina and Gracanica.
12 Approaching to Gracanica one needs to turn to the east from the road.
13 Q. Thank you. What was the ethnic makeup of that village?
14 A. I completed two years of elementary education there, and during
15 the aggression, in Ajvalija there were some 4.000 Siptars and between 2-
16 and 300 Serb inhabitants.
17 Q. Thank you. Did you go to Ajvalija during the war?
18 A. I did. The population there mostly lived in harmony. There were
19 no disputes or problems. There is a whole line of examples that can be
20 used of the two ethnic groups helping each other. I remember the Jocic
21 and Mitic families who were assisting the Siptars and vice-versa. They
22 used to shop in the Vitija family shop, as well as the shops of the Drela
23 and the Berisha families. The church operated throughout. That's was
24 life was like in Ajvalija.
25 Q. Thank you. Did you go to the village of Maticane during the war?
1 A. I was in the general area of Maticane and in Maticane itself. It
2 is a large neighbourhood on the outskirts of Pristina.
3 Q. What was the ethnic makeup?
4 A. There were only some 30 Serbs from the Vasic, Simic, and Kostic
5 families. The other 4- to 5.000 inhabitants were Siptar.
6 Q. During the war, as far as you know, did anyone move out of the
7 village of Maticane?
8 A. Yes, the Kostics, Simics, Vasics. There were many people with
9 slit throats, many people kidnapped from Maticane. The Serbs moved out,
10 whereas the known terrorists remained living in Maticane, and I can
11 enumerate them.
12 Q. Thank you. My question is this, rather: Do you know whether any
13 Albanians were moved out of Maticane during the war?
14 A. Some of the Albanians did leave Maticane, but most of them
15 remained. There were even two terrorists groups which clashed in
16 Maticane. As a result of that, there were two killed. To date there is
17 a cemetery containing their graves.
18 Q. Did you go to Kisnica during the war?
19 A. A few times. Especially when the corps command was deployed
20 there in the broader area of Pristina. As far as I know there were
21 Siptars mostly as well as several Serb families. The Kisnica mine
22 operated properly and the employees were under work obligations so both
23 Serb and Siptars came there to work. Many Siptars attended their work
24 regularly. That would be it for the most part regarding Kisnica.
25 Q. Thank you, Colonel, Filipovic. I have no further questions for
2 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, this
3 concludes my redirect.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Djurdjic.
5 Questioned by the Court:
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sir, I have a question to the obstacles you
7 mentioned the man-made and natural obstacles between Lapska Street and
8 the cemetery. You just said obstacles, man-made and natural, can you
9 describe them in more detail, please?
10 A. I can describe them for you. Between Lapska Street and the
11 Orthodox cemetery, I can tell you a few obstacles even though it's been
12 quite a long time since I left the area. Let's start with the man-made
13 buildings. There's the invest bank building in close proximity to the
14 Municipal Assembly building. Next there is the Municipal Assembly
15 building. Then the building in the former JNA street which is now called
16 Kralja Milutina Street. There is the management building of the Kisnica
17 mine close to number 46 where I attended military academy. There is
18 another building close to Marko Isak Street which has five, six, or seven
19 floors. There is a building close to the Omladina movie theatre. Then
20 there are buildings close to the former Ljubljanska bank and the centre
21 where William Walker was, which has eight or nine floors. Those are all
22 obstacles en route to the Orthodox cemetery. Lapska Street and the
23 Orthodox cemetery are approximately at the same attitude -- altitude.
24 These obstacles alone prevent any visibility.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And what about the natural obstacles in that
2 A. As for the natural obstacles, there is a part close to the
3 railroad which is higher than Lapska Street and this Orthodox cemetery.
4 I don't know what the altitude is, but it is higher. Since the whole
5 Pristina is at an altitude of some 570 metres above sea level, but it
6 varies between 520 and 650 metres.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now I would like to have a detailed explanation
8 of the obstacles between the Lapska Street and Lukare, you said the same
9 man-made and natural obstacles.
10 A. They are both man-made and natural obstacle, but there are more
11 of the natural ones. Those are tall trees and lie of the land. However,
12 there are some man-made obstacles.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. Then I have another question, just a
14 moment. This morning you spoke about -- I would like to take you back to
15 a page 21, line 12. And I would like to quote:
16 "I think it was Brnjica, although in the general area of Grmija
17 there were parts of such missiles found. So the general area of
18 Pristina, Gornja Brnjica," and so on. "The general area of Devet
19 Jugovica and the other areas of Pristina. We collected such parts."
20 Then you continue:
21 "I even wanted to present you with a list of those parts."
22 The last sentence I really didn't understand in this context.
23 Could you explain that a little more detailed.
24 A. I mostly had in mind different parts of missiles. There were
25 cluster bomb parts, there were parts of projectiles with uranium charge,
1 then there were parts of Tomahawks.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Excuse me, perhaps you didn't understand my
3 question. You said, so it's written in the transcript: "I even wanted
4 to present you with a list of those parts." Did you mean that you wanted
5 orally to present such a list, or what did you mean?
6 A. You are right. I wanted to enumerate them orally, that's what I
7 mean by list, and I've already done so partially.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
9 JUDGE PARKER: You may be able to help me with one matter. If we
10 could have Exhibit D722 on the screen, please.
11 Do you remember that you were shown this map of the Pristina area
12 and you marked three locations: Gracanica, Obilic, and Goles, I think.
13 You then drew the circle number 4, and you said that outside of that
14 circle was the broader area of Pristina. What made you decide that the
15 broader area of Pristina was outside the circle you had drawn?
16 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone is off.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Would you mind repeating, the microphones were
18 turned off.
19 A. When I circled this, what I had in mind was the constructed part
20 of Pristina, that is to say where the buildings are and the territory of
21 the municipality of Pristina. The circle does not represent the
22 territory of the municipality. It is far bigger. In diameter it's about
23 50 kilometres. And it goes from the north-east from Kobila and
24 Kacikovski [phoen] then down south to the municipal border with the
25 Lipljan municipality and Kosovo municipality and Obilic.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Kosovo Polje
2 municipality and Obilic.
3 A. I circled this believing that this was the general area of
4 Pristina, however, the municipality of Pristina is a much bigger area
5 outside the circle I drew.
6 JUDGE PARKER: So this was really your own general description of
7 what might be a broader area of Pristina, is that it?
8 A. This should be it more or less, but no one ever determined the
9 exact borders. It is usually believed that the general area is what is
10 outside the constructed, the urban part of the town itself.
11 JUDGE PARKER: The area you have circled though is much more
12 extensive than the actual built-up area, isn't it?
13 A. Yes, it is quite bigger.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that.
15 We wish to thank you for your attendance here in The Hague again,
16 for the assistance that you've been able to give, and you are now, of
17 course, able to return to your normal activities. And a Court Officer
18 will show you out. Thank you.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you and greetings to
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 JUDGE PARKER: It's probably a bit late, Mr. Djurdjic to call
23 your next witness now? We want to draw attention once more to the slow
24 progress. This is just, I believe, the 13th of your Defence witnesses
25 that has been completed. It has taken us over four weeks, that's
1 excluding, of course, the evidence of the accused. And what we notice is
2 that in the original estimate where you thought you might take until the
3 end of May, times were allowed for each of these witnesses. And you are
4 now providing revised time estimates which are double or longer the time
5 in the original estimate. That seems to have been the clear pattern to
7 Thankfully, the Prosecution is generally being very brief in its
8 cross-examination. If it was taking anything like the time you have been
9 taking and your colleagues, with your examination-in-chief and
10 re-examination our progress would be lamentably slow. It is the case
11 that you have indicated that five witnesses on your original list will
12 not be called, but even so, we are well behind the original timetable.
13 Now, this can't just be allowed to carry on or we will be hearing
14 witnesses in June and July, and that's not going to be in anybody's
15 interests. It is our observation that you appear to be dealing with many
16 matters that are not central to this case, and that the
17 examination-in-chief could be much shorter. If you concentrated on what
18 are the allegations in the indictment and concentrated your evidence on
19 those, that is especially so in the case of witnesses that are Rule 92
20 ter witnesses where there has been a clear tendency to have the witness
21 go over lots of the evidence that has been tendered by way of statement
22 or transcript, to have a repeat canvassing of that evidence.
23 This has been raised with yourself and Mr. Djordjevic and I think
24 Mr. Popovic on more than one occasion so far, but there seems to be no
25 significant change in the rate of progress. Is there any encouragement
1 you can give us at this point, Mr. Djurdjic, about the time taken with
2 witnesses and the rate of progress? We would indicate that if there
3 isn't really some significant change, the Chamber will have to consider
4 imposing arbitrary time-limits on you and that, of course, is something
5 we've tried to avoid doing to give you the greatest opportunity to
6 present your case in the best way.
7 I'll stop speaking and see if you are in a position to offer us
8 something at this point, Mr. Djurdjic.
9 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I must underline once
10 more that this Defence is particularly pleased with the way this Chamber
11 has proceeded in this case and that you have not adhered to some
12 procedures we were witness to in other cases. I am sorry for our
13 inability to assess correctly the time we would need for certain
14 witnesses given that we lacked any previous experience in that regard.
15 And we wanted to shed some light on certain aspects which have not been
16 in the focus of previous Defence teams.
17 Despite all that, I assure you that our Defence case will last
18 significantly shorter than what you said, and that the time that we will
19 use in excess will be compensated for by not calling certain witnesses,
20 and I don't believe I said initially it was supposed to be the end of
21 May, but until the end of April. However, it is my objective assessment
22 at this moment that our case should rest by mid-April because if we have
23 a witness here covering a certain aspect or area, we will remove from the
24 list all other witnesses that were supposed to address the same issue.
25 We distributed our witnesses into several categories and we are now
1 closing the first category. Although, initially, I believe there would
2 be more in that category. What is left now is the police and the
3 political category of witnesses, if I may say so, and some expert
4 witnesses in the end.
5 I can assure you that we will not waste time unduly. I believe
6 my assessment about the close of our case is quite realistic in these
8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that, Mr. Djurdjic. There are a
9 couple of comments I would make at the moment. You have earlier
10 indicated, you and Mr. Djordjevic, that it is anticipated that some
11 witnesses on the list would not be called beyond the five that have
12 already been specified. It's going to save a great deal of effort by the
13 Chamber and by the Prosecution if we are given some indication of the
14 witnesses you will not be calling.
15 Now, I appreciate that you may not be able to do that for every
16 witness because a lot will depend upon how a particular witness goes or
17 whether there is difficulty with one witness and you have to call a
18 substitute and so on, but there will no doubt be a number of witnesses
19 which you can identify now and that will save us a deal of preparation
20 time, and also the Prosecution if they can be identified now and if as
21 soon as others become clear we are progressively told of those. If you
22 could give that thought over the weekend, we may be able to shorten your
23 list somewhat. And that will help us see a little more clearly what lies
25 The second comment I want to make is that we are conscious that
1 you will have been fairly pressed with witnesses, and we were thinking of
2 having a shorter break over Easter, a short break over Easter, so that
3 you could expect not to have to call witnesses immediately after Easter
4 or the week following that. That could mean that your programme may
5 extend toward the end of April to finish rather than be finished by
6 mid-April, but one of the objects of that will be enable Mr. Djordjevic
7 and yourself to review your evidence and be sure that, A, you haven't
8 overlooked some witness or matter, and that, B, you really do need to
9 call any witnesses that remain on your list. So if you would keep that
10 in mind as well. In due course we'll fix the clear dates when we won't
11 sit so that you can make the plans for the travel of your witnesses that
12 are necessary. But if you and the Prosecution will keep in mind that we
13 will have a short break over the Easter period, which we hope will be of
14 benefit to yourself in the finalisation of the shape of your Defence
16 So if we could ask you then over the weekend to look at your
17 witness list and you may be able to be a little more clear and positive
18 early next week about the shape of your future list.
19 We will adjourn now until Monday.
20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.09 p.m.
21 to be reconvened on Monday, the 22nd day of
22 February, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.