Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13029

 1                           Thursday, 18 March 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Good afternoon.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  The affirmation you made to tell the truth still

 9     applies, and Ms. Gopalan continues.

10                           WITNESS:  DANICA MARINKOVIC [Resumed]

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12                           Cross-examination by Ms. Gopalan:  [Continued]

13        Q.   Witness, when we left off yesterday we were looking at a

14     document, a complaint sent by Defence counsel Fazli Balaj to various

15     parties, and you were listed as one the recipients; do you recall that

16     document?

17             MS. GOPALAN:  I will call that up on the screen now.  That's

18     06078.  And, Your Honours, when we left off yesterday, Mr. Djordjevic had

19     raised concerns about the translations of that document.  We have managed

20     to locate a CLSS translation in the system, which I have the doc ID for,

21     and bearing that in mind, I don't think it will be necessary for the

22     witness to read the document through as you had suggested yesterday.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.  If we can see that.

24             MS. GOPALAN:  The doc ID is 00335434 with an ET at the end, I'm

25     told.

Page 13030

 1        Q.   Ma'am, while the document is being called up, I'd like to take

 2     you to your testimony in relation to this document.  As we saw yesterday,

 3     it refers to Isak Aliu's treatment in prison, for example, paragraph 3

 4     reads:

 5             "As Defence counsel of the accused I am compelled to contact you,

 6     particularly with regard to the accused Isak Aliu because he continues to

 7     be subjected to grave physical and mental torture."

 8             We also had a look at the recipients of this document, and you

 9     were listed as one of them, but as I understand your evidence, you do not

10     recall receiving this document; is that right?

11        A.   Could I please see the next page as well.  And the rest of the

12     text on this page.

13             MS. GOPALAN:  If we could scroll down the B/C/S, please.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Next page in English.

15             MS. GOPALAN:

16        Q.   Have you finished reading the B/C/S, ma'am?

17        A.   Yes, but I still haven't seen the second page.

18             MS. GOPALAN:  Could we have the second page in the B/C/S, please.

19        Q.   Now, I'd like to draw your attention to the last paragraph, or

20     second last in the B/C/S, you haven't come to that yet, but while you are

21     reading, I'll tell you what the English says:

22             "The investigating judge has been consistently refusing to refer

23     him and my client for medical examination, thus preventing the evidence

24     of torture."

25             Do you see that in the B/C/S?

Page 13031

 1        A.   Which paragraph is that?  Is it on the second page?

 2             MS. GOPALAN:  Could we scroll down in the B/C/S, please.  And

 3     then the third page or the last paragraph, which is what I'm referring

 4     to.

 5        Q.   I think the paragraph I talked about started in the second page

 6     and ends at the top of the third page.  That:

 7             "The investigating judge has been constantly refusing to refer

 8     him and my other clients for medical examination, thus preventing the

 9     evidence of torture."

10             Ma'am, do you recall this case?

11        A.   Before answering your question, I must provide a rather extensive

12     explanation since this is essential.  As regards this motion, it says

13     here defence motion, it's not a complaint --

14        Q.   We'll get to your explanation in a moment, but my question to you

15     is a very precise one.  It says do you recall this case, and by that I

16     mean the case of Isak Aliu that we spoke about yesterday and the

17     complaints of torture made by his Defence counsel.  That is what this

18     document is talking about and my question to you is, do you recall this

19     case?

20        A.   This is not a complaint.  As for Isak Aliu being tortured, this

21     is the first time I hear of it from you.  Yesterday you showed me a

22     finding of the forensic medical institute, it was forwarded to me as the

23     investigating judge concerning a medical examination of the person you

24     are referring to, however, there are many important elements contained

25     here that I need to comment on.  It seems you are seeking a certain

Page 13032

 1     answer but it has nothing to do with the investigating judge of the

 2     competent court.  Investigating judges have completely different powers

 3     under the penal code, and it differs from the competences of, say, your

 4     investigators.  An investigator is not the same thing as an investigating

 5     judge.

 6        Q.   That's right.  And we remember that yesterday you provided a

 7     fairly detailed answer on the role of an investigating judge and the

 8     competence of a prosecutor in comparison.  And you told us that in

 9     relation to these sort of allegations, for example, your competence ended

10     when you reported the case up to prosecutors.  I'm not asking you about

11     that now.  My question to you simply is, do you recall this case of Isak

12     Aliu where the Defence counsel made allegations of torture?  It's a

13     simple question and you can answer yes or no.

14        A.   I don't.  This is the first time I hear of any mistreatment or

15     torture in the prison.

16        Q.   We had a look at that document yesterday as well, so you don't

17     remember seeing this information yesterday?

18        A.   Yes, I do.

19        Q.   Very well.  Let's have a look at some other examples or documents

20     in this case.  But before we do that, let's continue with the case of

21     Isak Aliu.  Yesterday, as we mentioned, we saw some foreign reports of

22     medical examinations.  We saw a report in relation to Isak Aliu.  Do you

23     remember that?

24             MS. GOPALAN:  We can call it up.  It's P1559.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, I wanted to continue

Page 13033

 1     answering your question about this motion.  There are many things there

 2     that remain unclear, but they are quite important.  Therefore, you cannot

 3     deprive me of my right to answer for the sake of the Chamber.  This

 4     complaint, as such, was not binding --

 5        Q.   We'll leave that for the Chamber to decide.  My question was a

 6     very simple one, and I believe you have answered it, and we are going to

 7     move on unless the Chamber feels otherwise.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Please carry on, Ms. Gopalan.

 9             MS. GOPALAN:

10        Q.   Let's have a look at the document on the screen.  This was

11     another one that we saw yesterday as well.  It's a report of a medical

12     examination conducted on Mr.  Aliu and your testimony in relation to this

13     document was that, "I can't recall it now, but if it's addressed to me,

14     and we can see that it is, at the top of the page, it must have been

15     received."  Now, I'd like to see some other medical reports that were

16     also sent to you.  Mr. Djordjevic had requested that we show each

17     individual report to you.  So having regard to your testimony here that

18     it's been addressed to you, so you must have received it, let's move on

19     to some of the other reports of medical examination.

20             MS. GOPALAN:  Can I call up 03105, please.

21        Q.   Now, as I mentioned yesterday, there were a number of other

22     results of medical examinations sent to you.  This is one for an

23     individual called Murat Sahiti.  Do you see the name?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MS. GOPALAN:  If we could go to the second page, he was indictee

Page 13034

 1     10 in the policemen case, or the case of the illegal MUP.

 2        Q.   We see that that in terms of the opinion of the injuries that he

 3     suffered, it says "all of them inflicted with the blunt side of the heavy

 4     and strongly swayed mechanical instrument."

 5             MS. GOPALAN:  Could we go to the second page of the B/C/S or at

 6     least scroll down so the witness is able to see the relevant section.

 7     Thank you.

 8        Q.   So we see that this opinion is identical, if not similar, to the

 9     conclusions reached in relation to Mr.  Aliu, which we saw -- whose

10     document we saw yesterday.

11             MS. GOPALAN:  Your Honours, I'd like to tender this exhibit,

12     please.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit Number P01562.  Thank you, Your

15     Honours.

16             MS. GOPALAN:  And if we could move on to the next report, and

17     that's 03104.  And we will try to move through these fairly quickly, if

18     we can.  It's just for confirmation.

19        Q.   Now, we see here, this is another report and it's for Aliden

20     Bejtulah, who was indictee number 21.

21             MS. GOPALAN:  If we could go to the bottom of the B/C/S, and the

22     second page of the English, please.

23        Q.   At the opinion section it says:

24             "Injuries inflicted with the blunt side of the heavy and strongly

25     swayed mechanical instrument."

Page 13035

 1             MS. GOPALAN:  I'd like to tender this document into evidence,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit Number P01563, Your Honours.  Thank

 5     you.

 6             MS. GOPALAN:  Ma'am, let's have a look at 03103.  That's another

 7     medical report.  And this time it's for Caka, Tahir.

 8        Q.   Do you see his name there?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.

10        Q.   And this document is also addressed to you, and we see at the

11     bottom opinion "injury inflicted by blunt side of heavy and strongly

12     swayed mechanical instrument."

13             MS. GOPALAN:  I'd like to tender this document into evidence,

14     Your Honours.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  It will be received as Exhibit Number P01564.

17     Thank you, Your Honours.

18             MS. GOPALAN:  And the next one 03102.  And this was indictee

19     number 13.

20        Q.   Do you see the name there, Ramadan Ferizi, ma'am?

21        A.   Yes, I see it.

22        Q.   It's also addressed to you.  If we could scroll down, opinion

23     section.

24             MS. GOPALAN:  May I see the English please on the next page.

25     Sorry, could we have the English on the screen.  Thank you.

Page 13036

 1        Q.   And again it says "inflicted with the blunt side of a heavy and

 2     strongly swayed mechanical instrument."

 3             MS. GOPALAN:  I'd like to tender this into evidence, Your

 4     Honours.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  It will be received as Exhibit Number P01565.

 7     Thank you, Your Honours.

 8             MS. GOPALAN:  And the next one, 0101, indictee number 1.  Sorry,

 9     it's 03101.

10        Q.   And do you see the name, ma'am, Avdija Mehmedovic.  And again

11     this report is addressed to you; right?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MS. GOPALAN:  And if we could scroll to the bottom of both

14     languages.  Injuries, it says "inflicted by a heavy blow of a blunt heavy

15     mechanical implement."  I'd like to tender this, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As P01566.  Thank you, Your Honours.

18             MS. GOPALAN:  And the next one, 3100.

19        Q.   Ma'am, do you see that this is a medical report for Bljerim

20     Oloni?  Ma'am?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And if we go to the bottom of the page of the B/C/S and the next

23     page of the English, the conclusion section says, as in the previous

24     documents we have seen, "inflicted by a heavy blow from a blunt heavy

25     mechanical implement."  That's correct, ma'am?

Page 13037

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MS. GOPALAN:  And the final one is 0 -- oh, yes, I'd like to

 3     tender that into evidence, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit Number P01567.  Thank you.

 6             MS. GOPALAN:  And the final one is 03098.  I perhaps spoke too

 7     soon, we have one more to go.

 8        Q.   And this one, 03098, you see that, ma'am, that it's addressed to

 9     you and the individual referred to is Kemalj Alija?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And at the bottom of the B/C/S and the second page of the

12     English, we see a similar conclusion.  We'll wait for the document to

13     come.

14             MS. GOPALAN:  Could we have the next page of the English, please.

15        Q.   Again it says "inflicted by a blunt and heavy object in full

16     swing."

17             MS. GOPALAN:  I'd like to tender this into evidence, Your

18     Honours.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  It will be received as Exhibit Number P01568.

21     Thank you, Your Honours.

22             MS. GOPALAN:  And the next one is 03098 -- sorry, 03097.

23        Q.   Do you see his name there, ma'am, Bruti, Sali?

24        A.   Yes, I do.

25        Q.   And it's addressed to you.

Page 13038

 1             MS. GOPALAN:  And the opinion page, please.

 2        Q.   Again we see "inflicted by heavy blow from a blunt heavy

 3     mechanical implement."  So similar conclusion to the other documents we

 4     have seen; correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MS. GOPALAN:  I'd like to tender this into evidence, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  It will be received as Exhibit Number P01569.

 9     Thank you, Your Honours.

10             MS. GOPALAN:

11        Q.   Now, ma'am, yesterday we saw in Mr. Balaj's statement that you

12     had delayed medical exam for Isak Aliu to allow his injuries to heal.

13     Now, in relation to any of these indictees, do you remember if you

14     delayed their medical examination?

15        A.   The statement of Fazli Balaj is incorrect, as is what you have

16     just said.

17        Q.   So in answer to my question, did you delay medical exams for any

18     of these individuals, please answer.

19        A.   That is not correct.  I did not delay anything.  If I received

20     submissions from any defence counsel, each such a person would be

21     referred for medical examination right away.

22        Q.   And do you recall receiving any of these reports?

23        A.   Of course I received these reports because I forwarded them to

24     the parties and Fazli Balaj confirms that he had received the findings

25     relating to his client.

Page 13039

 1        Q.   Now, do you know if any further steps were taken following these

 2     reports being forwarded on?

 3        A.   That depended on defence counsel and the public prosecutor.

 4        Q.   Ma'am, I'm asking you --

 5        A.   Defence counsel were there to state themselves whether they

 6     followed it up with any criminal reports against people who had committed

 7     that.  It was up to the public prosecutor and defence counsel to submit

 8     criminal reports against people whom they suspected of having committed

 9     crimes.  I could not submit criminal reports, I was there to forward

10     documents to the parties, and it was up to the parties to follow it up.

11     The prosecutor was in charge of discovering and prosecuting perpetrators

12     of criminal acts.

13        Q.   Ma'am, let me repeat my question and it was, do you know if any

14     further steps were taken following these reports being forwarded on?  Do

15     you know?

16        A.   Steps or measures taken by whom?

17        Q.   Well, based on your answer, prosecutor?

18        A.   I don't know whether the prosecutor did anything.  It was within

19     his power to do so.  It wasn't up to me to monitor and check what he was

20     doing, I was not authorised to do so.

21        Q.   So you don't know what steps were taken after these reports were

22     forwarded on; correct?

23        A.   I don't know that.

24        Q.   Now, Witness, on Tuesday, I think you testified about a number of

25     cases you had been involved in and the diligence with which you conducted

Page 13040

 1     these investigations.  For example, you spoke about a case where you were

 2     willing to go to the crime site even though you were advised against it

 3     by the prosecutor due to safety concerns so that the bodies that lay in

 4     the crime site wouldn't be taken away by dogs.  Do you remember that case

 5     that you talked about?

 6        A.   If you have in mind the on-site investigation in Racak, then it

 7     is correct.  As for me performing my duties in a professional and legal

 8     way, I can prove it by telling you that I was recently called back to

 9     Pristina to work because I was offered a choice between being a domestic

10     judge or a judge at the EULEX or the Supreme Court.

11        Q.   Thank you, ma'am.  Now, we said that you are a professional and

12     that you took your work seriously.  Now, how is it then in a case

13     involving individuals that you had investigated when you receive medical

14     reports that show similar type of injury, you do not seem to know what

15     happened in relation to these complaints?  How is that?

16        A.   I don't know how to answer that question, how to explain.  You

17     seem not to understand the powers of an investigating judge.  How often

18     do I have to repeat that?

19        Q.   Ma'am, I understand that this is not something within your

20     powers, but my question simple relates to your knowledge of whether if

21     anything was done to address these complaints.  And I believe you have

22     said that you do not know; is that right?

23        A.   I told you that I didn't know and it wasn't up to me to know.  It

24     wasn't me who monitored the work of a prosecutor.  The defence counsel

25     could have provided evidence whether anything was done following his

Page 13041

 1     complaint.  It's the defence counsel who protects the interests of his

 2     client and takes further steps.  The finding, the medical finding was

 3     that his client suffered a light injury and it's for the defence counsel

 4     to file a criminal report and for the public prosecutor to take steps.

 5             I don't know how to explain that.  Fazli Balaj knows that

 6     perfectly well.  He only wanted to accuse the investigating judge,

 7     because the investigating judge, a statement given to the investigating

 8     judge is very difficult to rebut in trial, if the statement was given in

 9     a legal manner.  And that was the purpose of all these submissions of

10     Fazli Balaj to be in a better position once an indictment is raised.

11        Q.   So as an investigate judge, you were not interested in knowing if

12     these men had been beaten in custody?

13        A.   I as an investigating judge receive regular reports from the

14     administration of the prison or the state, and they were duty-bound to

15     inform me whenever I called them up because there are medical check-ups

16     conducted there and if the indictee is dissatisfied with the treatment he

17     receives in jail can turn to me.  And if anything like that happened in

18     prison, the prison warden was duty-bound to inform the investigating

19     judge, and I never received such information, at least as regards the

20     cases that I worked on.

21        Q.   Thank you, ma'am.  Now, let's move on to another document.

22             MS. GOPALAN:  This is 65 ter 391.  And it's also Exhibit P1551.

23     It's been marked for identification.

24        Q.   Now, ma'am, we see here that this is a Human Rights Watch report

25     from the cover page, and you see that it is dated December 1998, and it's

Page 13042

 1     headed detention -- "Detentions and Abuse in Kosovo."  Do you see that,

 2     ma'am?

 3        A.   Yes, I do.

 4             MS. GOPALAN:  And now I'd like to go to page 17 of the English

 5     and the B/C/S.

 6        Q.   Ma'am, I'm interested in the case of A.D.  Let's wait for it to

 7     come up on your screen.  And while it's coming up, I will read the

 8     document.  It says:

 9             "A.D. is a primary school teacher with five children from Zaskok

10     village near Urosevac.  He was arrested on June 28, 1998, tortured with

11     electric shock, and held in prison for 86 days.  According to A.D., three

12     or four plain clothes policemen came to his house around 5.30 a.m. and

13     ordered him to the police station in Urosevac without an explanation.

14     They took him to the state security building on the fourth floor where

15     they accused him of hiding weapon for the KLA, which he claimed was not

16     true.  He insisted that he -- they insisted that he had weapons and was

17     working with the KLA in the village and started to beat him.  He told

18     Human Rights Watch:  They beat me with a truncheon all over my body, but

19     not on the head.  They were changing, three or four policemen always

20     beating me.  They asked me about my activity in the KLA, about weaponry.

21     Do you know this person, for example.  They let me recover, and we had a

22     normal talk, and then they would start beating me again."

23             Now, ma'am, do you know about this case of A.D.?

24        A.   I don't know what I could have to do with this.  This is the

25     first time I hear of it and this makes me laugh.  I really have no

Page 13043

 1     comment, and I have no idea why you are asking me this.  What is the

 2     connection with me?

 3        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] ... say that he was taken to the Urosevac

 4     police station.  Wasn't Urosevac within your jurisdiction as the district

 5     judge in Pristina?

 6        A.   Well, you know, yes, as far as subject matter jurisdiction and

 7     territorial jurisdiction is concerned, yes, but I have nothing to do with

 8     the building of the SUP of Urosevac.  So this really has nothing to do

 9     with me.

10        Q.   Very well then.  Now, A.D. also speaks about being tortured with

11     electric shock, and that I will read is the second last paragraph.  It

12     says:

13             "They used electric shock.  There is some kind of engine.  They

14     were keeping me with a part and every time I received a shock, that was

15     the most difficult.  Then they would ask some questions.  It was very

16     painful.  I can't remember the number of times, I could only count the

17     first few.  I lost consciousness.  They used water and a ventilator to

18     reawaken me."

19             Now, ma'am, do you know anything about electric shock being used

20     against prisoners?

21        A.   This is the first time I hear of this.  Really, I can tell you I

22     can't comment, nor do I have any answer to this, and I can only repeat, I

23     don't see why you are asking these questions to me.

24        Q.   Perhaps the next paragraph will help, ma'am.  It says here:

25             "According to A.D., the abuse stopped after the three days in

Page 13044

 1     prison.  On July 3rd he was taken to the investigative judge, Danica

 2     Marinkovic in Pristina, who ordered A.D. to be held in pre-trial

 3     detention.  A.D. had a lawyer present, who subsequently allowed to visit

 4     him four or five times in prison.  On September 22, the charges against

 5     A.D. were dropped without an explanation when he was released."

 6             Now, does this refresh your memory in terms of this case?

 7        A.   No.  This is a completely false.  I don't know where this report

 8     came from and on which information is based.  But this is beyond reason.

 9     It's totally untrue.  I don't know what is behind this.  I don't know why

10     this was written this way.  And this person A.D., if all this happened to

11     him once he was released, he could have gone to the chief of the SUP of

12     Urosevac with his lawyer and reported everything and of course criminal

13     proceedings would have been launched.  That's very clear.  If all this is

14     true, then that's what he and his lawyer should have done, otherwise,

15     I've nothing to do with this.

16        Q.   So you don't recall dealing with this individual, that's your

17     testimony?

18        A.   It's not true, I would never do anything like this.  I've been a

19     judge for 34 years.  I know my job.  I don't know where all these reports

20     came from.  If these organisations could have stated something positive,

21     then we could have spoken about it.  We weren't -- we didn't live in the

22     age of slavery.  We respected the human rights of everybody, of all

23     accused persons, and I have come here to speak the truth.  And it is

24     really so that all the human rights of the accused persons were

25     respected.  They had the right to a defence lawyer, the right to use

Page 13045

 1     their mother tongue, so both the defence counsel and the Judge would have

 2     noticed any traces on the body of an abused person and a report would

 3     have been made.  Could I have remained judge for 34 years if any of this

 4     were true?

 5        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] ... I have allowed you to provide a fair

 6     amount --

 7        A.   Well, I didn't answer, I say it isn't true.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.  Our system involves counsel

 9     asking you questions.  If they are unclear, you can raise that problem,

10     but if they are clear, if you would please pay attention to answering

11     them.  Under our system, if you are not allowed to say all that you wish,

12     either the counsel who called you would be able to raise that again with

13     you later or this Chamber would.  So for the moment, if you can

14     concentrate on the questions and answering those, it will help us all to

15     proceed more quickly.  Thank you.

16             MS. GOPALAN:  Could we move to another page in this document,

17     please.  Page 8.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise to the Chamber.

19        Q.   Now, this is the case of Rexhep Bislimi and it's headed "Deaths

20     in Detention" and it says here:

21             "Rexhep Bislimi an activist with the council for the defense of

22     human rights and freedoms in Urosevac and the father of three, was

23     arrested on July 6, 1998 from the street in Urosevac.  He died on July 20

24     from beatings he sustained while in detention."

25             Ma'am, do you know Rexhep Bislimi?

Page 13046

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   So you don't know anything about this case, of him being beaten

 3     to death?

 4        A.   I don't know.

 5             MS. GOPALAN:  If we could go to the bottom of the page, and I'll

 6     read out the last paragraph.

 7        Q.   And it says:

 8             "Three or four days later, the family learned that Rexhep was

 9     being held in Gnjilane prison.  The chief investigative judge in

10     Pristina, Danica Marinkovic, gave Rexhep's mother and Fadil permission to

11     visit.  According" -- and could we move to the next page, please?

12             "According to Fadil, the two of them tried to visit on July 16th,

13     but the police didn't not allow them to enter the prison because Rexhep

14     was in interrogation.  The police kept the visiting permit and said that

15     the family could return in three or four days."

16             Now, ma'am, according to this report, you permitted Mr. Bislimi's

17     family to visit him in prison, and this was an individual that was beaten

18     to death in prison, so you were involved in this case, and you say you

19     don't remember this case?

20        A.   I don't know, I don't remember.  A persons against who I

21     investigated and were in pre-trial detention and the district prison in

22     Pristina, I don't know anything about this case.

23        Q.   Was it usual for prisoners to die in detention?

24        A.   Well, there may have been such occurrences, very rarely.  I can't

25     remember.  There have been such cases, but very few.

Page 13047

 1        Q.   But if they were such rare occurrences, ma'am, wouldn't you

 2     remember that a case that you had been involved in resulted in death in

 3     custody?

 4        A.   Well, you know, I would have to know the details first, whether I

 5     investigated against him, whether he was really beaten up, whether he

 6     really died and what he died of because there have been cases when people

 7     died for reasons of poor health.  This is the first time I've read

 8     anything like this.  This is unfamiliar to me.  I know nothing about it.

 9        Q.   In this case at least these portions I read out initially say

10     that the death in custody was due to beatings, so there's no doubt about

11     that in this case.

12             MS. GOPALAN:  Now, let's have a look at another case.  Page 10 of

13     the English and the B/C/S, please.

14        Q.   And this is the case of --

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Before you move on -- [microphone not activated]

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the Judge.

17             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as far as I

18     understood, the words of my learned friend, Ms. Gopalan and for the sake

19     of the transcript and what has been recorded, her last conclusion was as

20     for as I can tell from this document, the death in custody was due to

21     beatings, so there is no doubt about that.  Is my learned friend

22     referring to the document that we see on the screens or to some forensic

23     report that we haven't seen here, because I cannot draw that conclusion

24     based on this document, and I just want to make sure what my learned

25     friend was referring to.  Thank you.

Page 13048

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Djordjevic.

 2             Ms. Gopalan.

 3             MS. GOPALAN:  Let's go back to the page that we saw, the section

 4     that I read out, Your Honours, begins at page 8 of this document, so if

 5     we could go there.  And it says:

 6             "Human rights groups in Kosovo have documented five cases since

 7     July 1998 in which detainees, people held in police stations, state

 8     security buildings, or prisons died from torture by police officers or

 9     prison guards."

10             And then we see that the case of Rexhep Bislimi follows on.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  And I see in the first paragraph under the heading

12     of Rexhep Bislimi, I think the passage which you may have read, he died

13     on July 20th from beatings he sustained while in detention.

14             Mr. Djordjevic, is there anything further?

15             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I just wanted to make sure so my

16     learned friend meant this document where we see the mere allegation by

17     humanitarian organisation that something happened without any additional

18     documents corroborating that this person really died, such as the ledger

19     of deaths, which was usual for Kosovo, or a forensic report, a

20     pathologist finding, or any other document which would beyond reasonable

21     doubt confirm this mere allegation made by Human Rights Watch.  And as

22     far as I know, they usually enclose documents corroborating their

23     allegations, but we haven't seen any such documents, so I ask myself,

24     whether this allegation is verifiable at all.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  The Chamber is well aware that Ms. Gopalan is

Page 13049

 1     proceeding on the basis of a report which is second-hand for her

 2     cross-examination.  Whether or not this particular person died as

 3     suggested is a matter of fact which may have to be determined by the

 4     Tribunal or not, but at the moment it's merely the report is merely the

 5     subject of cross-examination.

 6             Carry on, Ms. Gopalan.

 7             MS. GOPALAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 8             Could we go to page 10, please, of the English and the B/C/S.

 9     Could we go to the previous page, my apologies, I'd like the section

10     heading for Cen Dugoli.  Thank you.  Also in the English, please.  Thank

11     you.

12        Q.   Now, ma'am, do you know someone called Cen Dugoli?

13        A.   The name is unfamiliar.

14        Q.   Now, it says here:

15             "Cen Dugoli, an activist with the democratic league of Kosovo in

16     Urosevac, and the father of four, died on August 17, 1998 in Pristina

17     hospital from beatings sustained while in detention.  Photographs of

18     Dugoli obtained from Human Rights Watch reveal signs of extreme beating

19     and deep subcutaneous bleeding over large parts of the body."

20             Now if we go down the page it refers to the family visiting, and

21     it says:

22             "The family first visited the prison on July 1.  According to

23     Mereaj Dugoli, her son looked tired, and he had some bruises on his face.

24     Dugoli's lawyer, Destan Rukiqi visited Dugoli in prison on July 19.

25     Rukiqi told human rights" -- could we move on, please, to the next page.

Page 13050

 1     "Watch that Dugoli had been beaten and they could not discuss the details

 2     in the presence of the prison guard."

 3             MS. GOPALAN:  I'd like to move on to the last paragraph just

 4     before the section headed Adem Berisha, and could we move in the B/C/S as

 5     well so the witness can follow?

 6        Q.   It says here:

 7             "While Dugoli was in prison, his lawyer Destan Rukiqi was

 8     arrested on July 23rd or insulting Judge Danica Marinkovic while trying

 9     to review Dugoli's case file.  Dugoli himself spent 30 days in prison and

10     was severely beaten on the kidneys while in the Lipljan prison, see

11     below.  Rukiqi first learned of Dugoli's death when he was released from

12     prison on August 22nd."

13             Now, ma'am, you said you didn't know Cen Dugoli.  Do you know his

14     defence lawyer, Destan Rukiqi?

15        A.   Let me tell you, all the cases that you've read out to me

16     including Cen Dugoli, I didn't have contact with them as accused persons.

17     This may be -- may have been in the pre-investigative phase while that is

18     before an investigation was launched because a person could be detained

19     for three days before an investigation was launched.  So these are all

20     cases I've never heard of before.

21        Q.   Ma'am, the question was, do you know his lawyer, his defence

22     lawyer, Destan Rukiqi?

23        A.   Let me tell you, this is the first time I hear that Destan Rukiqi

24     was his lawyer.  I know Destan Rukiqi, he was a lawyer, and he defended

25     other accused persons.

Page 13051

 1        Q.   Do you recall this incident of him being imprisoned for insulting

 2     you?

 3        A.   I remember the event when he insulted me in my office in the

 4     presence of two witnesses.  And I called the misdemeanours judge and

 5     reported that misdemeanour to him because I considered that he had no

 6     right to insult me or the institution I represent.  But what happened

 7     subsequently in the misdemeanour proceedings, I don't know.  This was --

 8     it was up to the misdemeanours court to decide about that, so what you

 9     have just read out to me is unfamiliar.

10        Q.   Well, let's see if we can refresh your memory on what happened to

11     Mr. Rukiqi.

12             MS. GOPALAN:  Could we go to page 21 of the English and the

13     B/C/S, please.

14        Q.   So we see here:

15             "Destan Rukiqi, a lawyer in Pristina who has defended dozens of

16     ethnic Albanian political prisoners in Kosovo in recent years was

17     arrested on July 23rd, 1998 and sentenced that same day in an expedited

18     proceeding to the maximum 60 days in prison for disturbing public order.

19     Rukiqi was beaten on his third day in detention and suffered severe

20     damage to his kidneys."

21             Now, did you know about these beatings that Mr. Rukiqi received?

22        A.   No, this is the first time I've heard of it.  Nobody informed me

23     of that, nor was that necessary.  I merely reported the incident and

24     another court is in charge.  What happened to him in prison, I don't

25     know.  But he is a lawyer, he must have reported that to the prison

Page 13052

 1     warden, if anything like that happened to him.

 2        Q.   Now, it goes on to say:

 3             "The arrest was related to an incident on the morning of July

 4     23rd when Rukiqi got into an argument with the investigative judge in

 5     Pristina, Danica Marinkovic.  According to Rukiqi, Marinkovic had

 6     prohibited him from viewing the file of his client, Cen Dugoli, for two

 7     days.  On the third day, July 23rd, Rukiqi was allowed to see Dugoli's

 8     file but was forbidden to take notes.  When Rukiqi took notes,

 9     nonetheless, Marinkovic snatched the file from his hands and an argument

10     ensued.  According to Rukiqi, he stormed out saying 'I am in the court

11     but you are acting like the police.'"

12             Do you recall this argument, ma'am?

13        A.   This is incorrect.  What can I tell you.  Cen Dugoli was never

14     accused in a case I handled.  That's number one.  Number two, each

15     defence counsel could view case files if it was allowed in that case.  I

16     wouldn't engage in conduct such as this.  This is completely untrue.  I

17     have no comment to offer or nothing to say about it.  Of course, I

18     wouldn't stand him insulting me.  I was a public servant and if I tried

19     to insult anyone here at this Tribunal, measures would be taken against

20     me certainly.  As for the rest of what he is saying, I'm not familiar

21     with it.  I'm simply surprised that the humanitarian organisation

22     referred to never attempted to visit me to try and verify what they are

23     claiming to see whether I had those case files indeed and whether I had

24     anything to do with it.  They should have heard my side of the story.

25     This is a practice of listening to only one party, and I basically didn't

Page 13053

 1     really know what this international humanitarian organisation was busy

 2     with.  In any case, they should have visited me to discuss it with me as

 3     well.  Members of the International Red Cross always came around, we had

 4     very good co-operation, we visited the prison, and I provided them with

 5     permits to go out and visit by themselves, but this particular

 6     organisation never bothered to visit me.

 7        Q.   Thank you, ma'am.  And we may have a look at some International

 8     Red Cross reports shortly, but for the moment dealing with the case of

 9     Destan Rukiqi, you agree that following his encounter with you where he

10     insulted you, he was imprisoned?

11        A.   I don't know when he was imprisoned.  I only reported --

12        Q.   Ma'am, I didn't ask you when he was imprisoned.  I just said that

13     he was imprisoned.  Was he imprisoned?

14        A.   I don't know, I wasn't interested in what happened next.  I

15     simply reported the case, and that was it.  I had my own work to do.

16     What happened to Rukiqi is completely something I'm completely not

17     familiar with.

18        Q.   Very well, ma'am.  We may come into further details of what

19     happened to Rukiqi.

20             MS. GOPALAN:  Your Honours, can I ask that this exhibit be marked

21     for identification -- oh, it's already marked for identification.  So

22     I'll just move on in that case.

23             Now, let's have a look at 06087.

24        Q.   Ma'am, we see that this is a MUP staff report and it's dated the

25     24th of July, 1998.  And it's headed:  "Summary of security related

Page 13054

 1     incidents, events, and information recorded on the 23rd to 24th of July,

 2     1998."

 3             MS. GOPALAN:  And could we move to item 3, please.

 4        Q.   And I'll read that out to you.  It says -- if we could have the

 5     same in the B/C/S, thank you.

 6             "On 23rd July, 1998, at about 1200 hours, Destan Rukiqi, an

 7     attorney at law from Pristina, violated law and order in the office of

 8     the district court in Pristina when he came uninvited to the

 9     investigating judge, Danica Marinkovic, and insulted her saying, 'You

10     should put on a police uniform and work for the police' in accordance

11     with Article 305 of the law on misdemeanours.  He was brought before the

12     misdemeanours judge who sentenced him to 60 days imprisonment."

13             Now, this is the same incident we have been discussing; correct?

14        A.   I suppose so, I don't recall the date, but this sounds like it.

15     I know only that he came during the afternoon.

16        Q.   Thank you, ma'am.  I'd like to move on to another document.

17             MS. GOPALAN:  Could I tender this into evidence, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit Number P01570.  Thank you, Your

20     Honours.

21             MS. GOPALAN:  6091, 65 ter.  Sorry, 06091.

22        Q.   Now, we see here, ma'am, that this is a report from the

23     "Financial Times," and it's dated the 27th of August, 1998.  And if we go

24     down to the B/C/S and the English, this incident that we have been

25     discussing is mentioned.  It says:

Page 13055

 1             "Defending Mr. Dugoli was Destan Rukiqi," and I'm reading here

 2     the second last paragraph of the English, and the last paragraph of the

 3     B/C/S on page 1.

 4             "Defending Mr. Dugoli was Destan Rukiqi, Kosovo's most prominent

 5     human rights lawyer, who was arrested after an argument with Judge Danica

 6     Marinkovic while seeking access to records of his client's testimony

 7     during investigation.  Mr. Rukiqi was sentenced to two months in jail for

 8     insulting the state and Mrs. Marinkovic.  He alleges that guards beat him

 9     unconscious on his back and legs with truncheons and then put him in

10     solitary confinement."

11             Could we move on to the next page, please.

12        Q.   Ma'am, this is the case we've been discussion; correct?  Mrs.

13     Marinkovic, is this the case we have been discussing?

14        A.   Concerning Destan Rukiqi?  I told you already, I don't know what

15     happened with him.  I was going through the list of files, and he doesn't

16     figure as a defendant at all in any of the cases I handled.  I don't know

17     him at all and I was never in charge of any investigations into his case.

18     In any case, it is correct that he insulted me, I reported him, and

19     that's the end of it for me.  I did not try to interfere with the work of

20     the Judge who sentenced him.  In any case, what he asserts is incorrect.

21     Had they come to see me to talk to me, they would have had a clearer

22     picture of the situation.

23        Q.   Ma'am, in this news report it says:

24             "Mrs. Marinkovic denied that Mr. Rukiqi or anyone else had been

25     beaten in prison and insisted that all deaths in custody were of natural

Page 13056

 1     causes.  The Serbian judicial system was so correct and fair, she

 2     maintained, that there was nothing for the UN to investigate.  'Some

 3     people after they are released following their jail term, come and thank

 4     me and say hello to me in the street, she added.  When they go abroad,

 5     they send me post cards and greetings'."

 6             Ma'am, it appear that is this incident was discussed with you by

 7     someone.  So do you recall saying this?

 8        A.   No, this is incorrect.  No one ever discussed it with me.  This

 9     is completely untrue.  These words may have been copied from another

10     newspaper about the accused saying hello and sending me post cards, but

11     as for Destan Rukiqi, this is completely untrue.  No one came to me to

12     speak about him, and I don't know what ensued following his departure

13     from my office.

14        Q.   When it says here Mr. Marinkovic denied that Mr. Rukiqi or anyone

15     else had been beaten in prison and insisted that all deaths in custody

16     were natural causes, you are saying this is not what you said?

17        A.   I never spoke to this journalist or anyone from his agency.  He

18     may have copied this from something I told another newspaper.  I was

19     talking about a person who died while in prison while being part of

20     criminal proceedings.  An autopsy was done right away and we knew of the

21     cause of death.  Each and every such case was recorded, autopsy was

22     performed, and records kept in cases in which any of the defendants in my

23     cases died.  I don't recall off the cuff what the results of the finding

24     in this case were, but concerning Destan Rukiqi, he was never accused in

25     any case I handled.  I have never heard of this particular journalist

Page 13057

 1     either.

 2        Q.   Ma'am, were you often questioned by journalists about death in

 3     custody?

 4        A.   No.  It's not that it wasn't often.  I was never asked about such

 5     things.

 6        Q.   And that was because, as you said earlier, it never happened, or

 7     it was a very rare occurrence?

 8        A.   You know, it happened seldom, and we would only inform the

 9     family.  No journalists ever came around asking how many prison deaths

10     were there.  Such cases were rare.  Very rare.  During my entire career

11     as the investigating judge, I don't recall any such cases.  My guess

12     would be it happened extremely rarely.  In any case, there must be

13     evidence of that in the case files.  There should be Official Notes,

14     autopsy findings, everything should be in the case files.

15        Q.   Very well, ma'am.

16        A.   This way of reporting is biased.  It is not supported by

17     anything.

18             MS. GOPALAN:  Let's have a look at another report in that case.

19     And before we move on, I'd like to tender this into evidence, Your

20     Honours.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit Number P01571.  Thank you, Your

23     Honours.

24             MS. GOPALAN:  And this is 06094.

25        Q.   Now, we see that this is a report in a Serbian media source;

Page 13058

 1     correct?  "Nin."  Do you see that, ma'am?

 2        A.   Yes, I do.

 3        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] ... January 1999.

 4             MS. GOPALAN:  And I'd like to go to page 4 of the report and that

 5     would be the last page of the B/C/S as well.

 6        Q.   And I'll read this out.  It says:

 7             "On 30th July, Destan Rukiqi, a lawyer from Pristina was

 8     transferred from the prison in Lipljan to Pristina hospital where he

 9     received five therapies of haemodialysis because he suffered serious

10     damages to his kidney following the heavy beatings in the prison.  On the

11     6th of August he was directed to the KPD hospital in Belgrade, where he

12     received haemodialysis and three blood doses.  Failure in the kidney

13     function was in the relation to the harms police inflicted over him while

14     he was imprisoned.  Rukiqi was arrested on 23rd July and that same day he

15     was criminally convicted to 60 days imprisonment.  The conviction and

16     arrest followed immediately after the conflict he had that same day with

17     Danica Marinkovic, investigative judge of the district court in Pristina.

18     She did not allow Rukiqi to write down data from the files of the case of

19     his defendant Ceno Dugoli, (Dugoli died on 17 August subsequent to the

20     police torture) ..."

21             Ma'am, this is a Serbian newspaper, and you say that at that time

22     you did not hear about the beatings suffered by Rukiqi?

23        A.   I am completely honest when I say that I didn't hear of it.  This

24     is Serbian paper, but I don't read "Nin."  I'm not trying to deny all

25     this, but what do I have do with his medical condition and his sentence

Page 13059

 1     in a misdemeanour proceedings?  I have nothing to do with it.  This may

 2     well be true.

 3        Q.   No one you knew read this article and informed you about this?

 4        A.   Well, you know, at the time we had lots to do.  We didn't have

 5     time to read papers or exchange information of this kind.  Some of my

 6     colleagues may have been aware of this but they never told me.  Whatever

 7     happened to him in jail is something that I don't know of.  I have

 8     nothing to do with it.  Perhaps the perpetrators were discovered.

 9     Perhaps you have some additional information or proof as to who did that.

10        Q.   Beatings in custody, that would be a serious issue, wouldn't it,

11     ma'am?

12        A.   Yes, if it took place.  I condemn such conduct and the

13     perpetrators of that should be punished.  However, to repeat, I have

14     nothing to do with it.

15        Q.   Ma'am, over the course of yesterday and today we've looked at a

16     number of documents, Human Rights Watch reports, newspaper articles, the

17     one on the screen which is a local newspaper.  We've looked at

18     international newspapers, the one that we saw before.  We saw a statement

19     by a defence lawyer yesterday, Fazli Balaj, and all of them consistently

20     say that beatings or mistreatment occurred in custody.  Now, why would

21     such a diverse group of individuals make such a claim?

22        A.   Well, you know, if this indeed was so, I have nothing to do with

23     it.  There is standard procedure.  Defence counsel know what to do,

24     prosecutors know what to do, I have no powers to investigate that.  If

25     there were such individuals, it should have been reported and the

Page 13060

 1     perpetrators sanctioned if such conduct occurred.  Each state condemns

 2     that.  I don't think anyone would turn a blind eye on that -- to that.

 3     If there was any evidence, perhaps something was done or maybe this was

 4     just a general blanket statement without any support.  This is very

 5     single sided.  All of this had to have been verified by checking

 6     documents, by visiting the jail, the prison warden, the court, everyone

 7     concerned should have been interviewed, medical examination documents

 8     checked, as well as autopsy findings verified, and then one could make a

 9     conclusion.  I cannot comment any of this because I don't have any of the

10     case files.  As for Destan Rukiqi, it may well be true, but I have

11     nothing to do with it.  He did insult me, I reported that, and that was

12     the end for me.  As far as I'm concerned, he should have been released

13     right away.

14        Q.   All these sources are saying that these beatings occurred, the

15     torture occurred in custody, and you are saying that you knew nothing

16     about this at that time?

17        A.   You know, the sources --

18        Q.   Ma'am, it's a simple question.  We know what the sources say.

19     What I'm interested in is what you say about it.  And as I understand it,

20     you are saying you knew nothing about this at that time; correct?

21        A.   These sources were not available to me.  I didn't know of any

22     mistreatments in the prison and no one ever told me about it.  I hear of

23     these NGOs for the first time as well as of their reports.

24             MS. GOPALAN:  Your Honours, I believe it's almost time for the

25     break.  I'm moving on to another topic, and I would suggest if possible,

Page 13061

 1     that we take the break now.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.  We will adjourn now, and we will

 3     resume at quarter past 4.00.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5                           --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.

 7             MS. GOPALAN:  Your Honours, while the --

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Ms. Gopalan.

 9             MS. GOPALAN:  While the witness is being brought in, I'll just

10     briefly mention that I'm intending to use a video with this witness.

11     This has been notified to Mr. Djordjevic, we've spoke about it, and his

12     concern is the provenance of the video, and I will provide that

13     information when I show the video.  In essence the information is

14     provided in the video itself.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

16                           [The witness takes the stand]

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Ms. Gopalan.

18             MS. GOPALAN:  Before we move on, I'd like to tender the last

19     document that was on the screen before the break, that's 06094.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic.

21             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] The document is such that the

22     witness was unable to confirm its contents at all.  The same applies to

23     the one previous document, the one from the "Financial Times."  That is

24     why the Defence objects to the admission of this document.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 13062

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  The view of the Chamber is that it should be

 2     received in the context in which it and others are offered, that is, a

 3     group of publications, an issue arising being whether or not the witness

 4     had an awareness of this reaction to the incident that is alleged in

 5     them.

 6             Thank you, Ms. Gopalan.

 7             MS. GOPALAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  If will become Exhibit P1572, Your Honours.

 9             MS. GOPALAN:  Could I call up P741, please.  And if we could go

10     to page 64 of the English and page 67 of the B/C/S.  Let's start with the

11     cover page first, please.

12                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

13             JUDGE PARKER:  At the moment there is a technical problem with

14     the Court Officer's computer.  It may be able to be overcome.

15             MS. GOPALAN:  66.  Your Honours, the witness has a copy of the

16     B/C/S version, and perhaps I can read out from the English version.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  I am at the same time watching the

18     screen of the Court Officer.  The technician is trying to deal with it,

19     but that seems still to be stalling, so we'll carry on as you propose.

20             MS. GOPALAN:  I see Mr. Djordjevic on his feet.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic.

22             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I believe that the Defence

23     should also receive a copy of the document during the cross-examination.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  I'm sure you are entirely correct, as usual,

25     Mr. Djordjevic.  Just at this moment technology is frustrating us.

Page 13063

 1             MS. GOPALAN:  Perhaps I could ask the witness to read the

 2     relevant section in the B/C/S, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  As long as it is not long, that could be the

 4     practice.

 5             MS. GOPALAN:  No, it is not long at all.

 6        Q.   Ma'am, could you have a look at the document that was just handed

 7     to you.  The first page, the cover page.  Ma'am, the first page of the

 8     document.  And in the English version it says:  "Humanitarian Law

 9     Violations in Kosovo" and it's another Human Rights Watch report;

10     correct?

11        A.   That is what it reads:  "Humanitarian Law Violations in Kosovo."

12        Q.   Thank you, ma'am, and could we now go to page 66 of the B/C/S

13     version of your hard copy.  And I have the English.

14             And, ma'am, do you see in the B/C/S there is a section headed

15     "Deaths in Detention"?  That would be on page 66 of your B/C/S.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Which page in English, please?

17             MS. GOPALAN:  On the e-court, Your Honours, it's page 64, but in

18     the hard copy it's page 58.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

20             MS. GOPALAN:

21        Q.   Do you see that, ma'am?

22        A.   Here, here I cannot see the subheading.  You mean on page 66?

23        Q.   Let me maybe find an easier example.  Could you flick forward to

24     section 7 headed "Detentions and Arrests."  So it's Chapter 7, headed

25     "Detentions and Arrests."  And that's page 53 of the English.

Page 13064

 1             MS. GOPALAN:  Perhaps the usher could assist the witness with the

 2     Court's leave.  Chapter 7.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see 8, but I can't see ...

 4             MS. GOPALAN:  I think it's chapter 8 in the B/C/S.  Page 62.

 5        Q.   So you see there, ma'am, it's the chapter headed "Detentions and

 6     Arrests."  Correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And if you flick through, there's a section headed just arrests,

 9     and if you go on, there's a reference to individual cases, and one of the

10     cases is the case of Destan Rukiqi, which is the case we've just been

11     talking about.  And that is page 56 of the English.  And I am interested

12     in footnote 80.  And in the B/C/S if it helps, it's page 66 for you.

13             Do you see that page, ma'am?  And do you see footnote 80?  And I

14     will read it out to you and for the benefit of the parties.  Footnote 80

15     reads:

16             "Judge Marinkovic has presided over a number of political trials

17     against ethnic Albanians in Kosovo in which the defendants were tortured.

18     See Human Rights Watch/Helsinki 'Persecution Persists, Human Rights

19     Violation in Kosovo,' December 1996, page 22."

20             Now, ma'am, my question to you is, do you agree that you have

21     presided over trials -- political trials against ethnic Albanians in

22     Kosovo?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Very well, ma'am.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Page 56, please.

Page 13065

 1             MS. GOPALAN:  I think the correct page on the e-court for this

 2     reference would be page 64 of the English.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 4             MS. GOPALAN:  So you don't agree.  Let's have a look at another

 5     document.  And this is a witness statement of a protected witness, so I

 6     believe we may have to go into private session, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.  Private.  We need footnote 80.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 13066











11 Pages 13066-13068 redacted. Private session.















Page 13069

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.

 6             MS. GOPALAN:

 7        Q.   Ma'am, this is a newspaper report dated the 23rd of June, 1999.

 8     And it's about an individual called Flore Brovina and the charges that he

 9     faced.  Now, that's just the background.  What I'm interested in is the

10     reference to you in this article.

11             MS. GOPALAN:  And I'd like to go to page 3 of the English and the

12     same in the B/C/S.

13        Q.   Now, for the B/C/S it's the second last paragraph from the

14     bottom, and I'll read out the section that relates to you:

15             "The charges against Brovina were filed in docket number 46/99 in

16     a Pristina court with investigative Judge Danica Marinkovic presiding.

17     The Judge is widely feared in the province for decisions viewed as biased

18     in favour of the police."

19             Ma'am, were you aware at that time that this was your reputation?

20        A.   This is the first I hear of it.  My reputation was that of a

21     professional judge.  It was nothing like this.

22        Q.   Ma'am, we just saw another document in which a witness, an

23     insider witness, said that you were a policeman just like them.  Doesn't

24     that suggest to you that that was also your reputation?  That that was

25     your reputation that you had?

Page 13070

 1        A.   No, this is the first time I hear that that was my reputation.

 2        Q.   Very well, ma'am.

 3             MS. GOPALAN:  Your Honours, I'd like to tender this into

 4     evidence, please.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit P1574, Your Honours.

 7             MS. GOPALAN:  And I'd like to call up P1560.

 8        Q.   Ma'am, this is a statement that we've already gone through, a

 9     statement of Fazli Balaj, which we do not have a B/C/S translation for.

10     If you remember he was the Defence counsel if the case of Isak Aliu.

11             MS. GOPALAN:  And can we go to paragraph 3 of the statement,

12     please.

13        Q.   And I'll read it out to you.  It says:

14             "I first met Danica Marinkovic in the Pristina district court

15     around 1985 or 1986.  Danica Marinkovic was an investigative judge in the

16     Pristina district court, and she often led the investigations of

17     'political cases' i.e., cases where defendants were charged with criminal

18     actions against the state brought under chapter 15 of our Criminal Code.

19     The authorities of the Republic of Serbia began charging Kosovo Albanians

20     under this law during the 1980s.  I have personal knowledge that Judge

21     Danica Marinkovic took no action when she was aware that certain

22     defendants detained under her authority were subjected to physical and/or

23     psychological torture.  Some of these prisoners died while they were

24     detained.  In her professional capacity as a judge, Danica Marinkovic

25     applied the policies of the Serb regime rather than the law."

Page 13071

 1             Ma'am, do you agree with Mr. Balaj that in your professional

 2     capacity as a judge you applied the policies of the Serb regime rather

 3     than the law?

 4        A.   No.  This is incorrect.  I can tell you that I was appointed as

 5     judge in 1984.  Before that I worked in civil law cases.  This is the

 6     extent of my learned friend Fazli Balaj's knowledge of what I did and

 7     when.  There were thousands of clients and statements and yet you keep

 8     going back only to his statement, what about the rest?

 9        Q.   Thank you, ma'am.  Now, we have seen a number of different

10     sources.  We have seen a Human Rights Watch report, we've seen a

11     newspaper article from "The Times," we have seen a statement made by a

12     policeman, and we've also seen this statement made by Mr. Balaj.  And all

13     of them seem to have reached the conclusion that you were a political

14     judge or a police judge, meaning a judge who was biased in favour of the

15     police.  Why is that the case?

16        A.   That is incorrect.  My work was to be assessed by those superior

17     to me.  If this is as they say, they could have submitted criminal

18     reports at any point for abuse of authority and that never happened.

19     Hence, I conclude that everything you have stated is untrue.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic.

21             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask my learned

22     friend Ms. Gopalan to be more specific.  I didn't quite understand what

23     she meant when she said that the witness worked for the police as the

24     Judge.  I wasn't able to grasp what the driving point was when she

25     referred to the five witness statements.  What does it mean in any case,

Page 13072

 1     that a judge is working for the police?  Or in favour of the police?

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  I think you may have a problem there with

 3     interpretation, Mr. Djordjevic.  What was said in English was directed

 4     toward a bias in favour of the police, rather than working for the

 5     police.  But the question has been put and answered and the witness has,

 6     I think, understood the question correctly and answered it directly.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The way I heard it was that I was a

 8     police judge.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Defence counsel ... interpreters believe since

10     the speakers overlapped that he says this was the way it was interpreted

11     to them.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  I think however the question was interpreted, the

13     answer is very much to the point and makes very clear the witness's

14     position.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Carry on, please, Ms. Gopalan.

17             MS. GOPALAN:

18        Q.   Ma'am, on the 18th when you went to conduct the on-site

19     investigation in Racak, you went to the trenches, didn't you?

20        A.   No, we didn't go to the trenches first.  We proceeded gradually

21     with the on-site investigation.  First we went to the mosque where we

22     found the corpses.  Then we --

23        Q.   Ma'am, let me stop you there.  My question was, on the 18th did

24     you go to the trenches?  You testified extensively about the whole

25     investigative procedure.  I just want to know whether you went to the

Page 13073

 1     trenches?

 2        A.   Yes, in my record of on-site investigation, it does say that

 3     among other things we did that day, we visited the trenches.

 4        Q.   And you also tried to locate the pit or the gully where the

 5     bodies had been found; correct?

 6        A.   What I said was that we attempted to locate the gully where we

 7     saw Walker during the previous days broadcast, where he claimed that the

 8     corpses of those killed were located.

 9        Q.   Now, during this investigation, did you inspect the residents'

10     property in the village?

11        A.   Firstly concerning the events in Racak, I didn't conduct the

12     entire investigation.  I was only in charge of a single investigative

13     measure which is the on-site investigation.  On that day we tried to

14     visit every location in and around Racak that was accessible to us.  I'm

15     not sure what you mean by your question precisely, but we tried to see

16     everything there was in Racak that we could.

17        Q.   Did you inspect the residents' property in the village, meaning

18     any homes?  Just yes or no?

19        A.   No, there was no need to inspect any property.

20        Q.   Ma'am, yesterday you said that you did not see any traces of

21     shelling or of any houses being set ablaze.

22             MS. GOPALAN:  And this is, for Defence counsel's reference, on

23     transcript page T-12983.

24        Q.   Now, you were not on the ground in Racak during the MUP action on

25     the 15th, were you?

Page 13074

 1        A.   When the action was underway by the MUP, I wasn't there.  I did

 2     enter Racak on the 15th -- on the 15th though at around 2.00 p.m.

 3        Q.   Ma'am, if you didn't inspect the residents' property in the

 4     village, how is it you say that you did not see any traces of shelling?

 5        A.   I still claim that we didn't notice any traces of shelling.  We

 6     could see the houses in the village, but there was no need to enter.  I

 7     simply observed the houses and I noticed there were no traces of

 8     shelling.

 9        Q.   Now, you were aware that international observers monitored the

10     incident at Racak on the 15th, are you?

11        A.   No, I heard that in the police station when I arrived there.

12     They told me that OSCE representatives did monitor it.  On the 15th when

13     I came, there were two orange vehicles used by them still up on the hill.

14        Q.   And so what you saw on the 18th would be a later observation;

15     correct?

16        A.   This was not a later observation.  Since we were unable to

17     complete the on-site investigation on the 15th, on the 18th we were

18     successful in completing that procedure.  As I said, we tried to see

19     everything there was to see and what we could see for safety reasons.

20        Q.   But you have already said that what you saw was -- what you saw

21     from a distance, there was no need to inspect the property, so you didn't

22     see these traces of shelling up close, did you?  You didn't go from door

23     to door and inspect all the homes in Racak?

24        A.   Well, you know, I had no authority to enter houses through closed

25     doors.  If you look from afar, you could see that there were no damage --

Page 13075

 1     there was no damage on the house.  The houses were not destroyed,

 2     including the house where there had been their staff.  We passed by those

 3     houses but did not enter.  There was no indication of any shelling and

 4     you can see that in the footage as well.

 5        Q.   Very well, ma'am.  Yesterday you testified that General

 6     Drewienkiewicz tried to influence your work and prevent you from carrying

 7     out your job.  This is at T-12972 onwards.  Now do you understand that

 8     the job of the KVM and General Drewienkiewicz was to prevent fighting in

 9     Kosovo?

10        A.   No, I don't agree with that assertion.  Being aware of the text

11     of the agreement, I wouldn't say so.  And there was no place for

12     Drewienkiewicz to interfere with the work of the judiciary.  He was a

13     foreigner, an observer who was supposed to monitor the situation but he

14     was not supposed to mettle with the authority of an investigative judge.

15     I asked General Drewienkiewicz, if I came to you, to England, trying to

16     prevent you in the conduct of an on-site investigation would you stop me

17     from doing so?  I'm sure you would.

18        Q.   Now, ma'am, we have evidence in this case that it was the role of

19     the KVM to try to stop fighting between the MUP, the VJ, and the KLA.

20     Now, when you attempted to do an investigation in Racak on the 15th, you

21     were escorted by the police; right?

22        A.   Yes, they were authorised to monitor, to escort.  Not only me,

23     but the other members of the team as well.

24        Q.   And you were also fired at; right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 13076

 1        Q.   And when you attempted to investigate again on the 16th, you were

 2     escorted by the police; right?

 3        A.   Yes.  Both on the 16th and the 17th we were escorted on the

 4     police, but there were fewer of them than was the case on the 18th.

 5        Q.   And again on the 16th, you were fired at; correct?

 6        A.   Correct.

 7        Q.   Now, when you met with General Drewienkiewicz on the 17th, he

 8     told you it would not be safe for you to enter the village with the

 9     police and that the KVM should escort you instead, so as not to spark

10     further firing; right?

11        A.   That is not what he said.  He said that there were villagers

12     there who would be scared upon seeing the police, and then he said that

13     these villagers would open fire at the police causing another clash.  He

14     asked me to accompany him alone to conduct that on-site investigation.

15     This was not allowed, and he couldn't request any such thing.  The law

16     clearly prescribes who is to be present during an on-site investigation.

17        Q.   And so you insisted on having the police escort, didn't you?

18        A.   No.  I insisted that I be allowed to conduct that on-site

19     investigation without General Drewienkiewicz trying to prevent me from

20     doing so.  The only thing I asked for was that we go together.  Of

21     course, the police was charged with securing the scene.  It's their duty.

22        Q.   So you took the police back into an area where there had been

23     fighting between the police and the KLA that had resulted in the killing

24     of 40 people; correct?

25        A.   I don't understand the question.

Page 13077

 1        Q.   You took the police back to Racak on the 18th with you?

 2        A.   Yes, I did.

 3        Q.   And the police were supposed to provide you with security?

 4        A.   Some policemen were already in the field on the 18th to see

 5     whether there are conditions in place for an on-site investigation.

 6     Given that there was some sporadic firing on the 18th, we did not set off

 7     before the police informed their superior that they managed in securing

 8     the location, that there was no firing, and that we should get going.  It

 9     is true that I was accompanied by a group of policemen who were in charge

10     of providing safety for the members of the team attending the scene.

11     They were there to take care of their safety.

12        Q.   Ma'am, in terms of providing you with safety, this meant that if

13     you were fired on, the police would fire back; correct?

14        A.   Of course, they were there to protect me and the others.  This

15     does not concern me alone.  All of us who were there attending the scene.

16        Q.   And that would mean another fire fight, the very thing that the

17     KVM was charged with preventing; correct?

18        A.   The KVM did nothing to prevent the firing in the -- during the

19     previous three days, although we were out in the field.  The KVM did

20     nothing.

21        Q.   Now, you insisted on being accompanied by the police and you were

22     fired upon again, weren't you, on the 18th?

23        A.   You know what, on the 18th we were there most of that day and

24     there were OSCE representatives there on that day, three of them.  Still

25     the KLA opened fire on us despite their presence.  Their orange vehicles

Page 13078

 1     were parked in the centre of Racak.

 2        Q.   Now, ma'am, I misspoke in my last question.  I believe the

 3     meeting that you had with General DZ was on the 17th and so it was on the

 4     17th that you insisted on being accompanied by the police and you were

 5     fired upon again?

 6        A.   No, no, you know what, don't put so much stress on me insisting

 7     upon anything.  I didn't insist upon anything.  The police was there to

 8     accompany us to provide security.  As soon as we set out, we were fired

 9     upon.  The police did not return fire.  We were fired at from the hills.

10     They fired upon us without any reason, or rather, the reason was that

11     they were trying to prevent us from entering Racak.  On that day there

12     were no skirmishes, there was no exchange of fire.  We were fired at from

13     the hills.

14        Q.   So far from preventing you from doing your job, General

15     Drewienkiewicz's suggestion that you went to Racak without the police

16     would have allowed you to carry out your job without bullets flying;

17     correct?

18        A.   Not correct.  Unfortunately not.  Drewienkiewicz's intention was

19     to prevent me from going to Racak to conduct that on-site investigation

20     at all.  He wasn't concerned with my safety.  He was concerned with me

21     going to Racak and conducting that on-site investigation.  He knows why.

22     He was so upset after I told him I was to go to Racak that he insulted me

23     and left, and he was very imposing throughout.  He spoke in a raised tone

24     of voice, he kept saying, you can't go there, there are villagers, armed

25     villagers.  He made a scene and stormed out.

Page 13079

 1        Q.   Ma'am, yesterday you testified that the bodies you saw in the

 2     mosque had shoes which looked like military boots.  Some had dark grey,

 3     others had navy blue military trousers, and they had military belts on

 4     those trouser.  This is at T-12976.  Now, there has been evidence in this

 5     case from General Drewienkiewicz who viewed the bodies on the 16th in the

 6     gully.  And he said that the bodies were in fact, in civilian clothes.

 7             Now, are you saying that the bodies you saw in the mosque were

 8     not in civilian clothes?

 9        A.   I'm saying only what I saw, and I entered that in my report.  It

10     corresponds to the footage.  The bodies I saw in the mosque, the 40 of

11     them, were in the items of clothing as I described.  What bodies

12     Drewienkiewicz saw is something I don't know.

13        Q.   Now, you also testified yesterday that Dr. Dobricanin said that

14     on one or two bodies there was damage to the head, injuries to the head

15     where the forensic experts said these had been caused by birds or animals

16     because the corpses had lain outdoors for awhile.  That's at T-12976.

17     There's also been evidence from witnesses in this case, including General

18     Drewienkiewicz, that he saw one man who was decapitated and many others

19     who had been shot in the head.

20             Did you observe that when you viewed the bodies?

21        A.   The bodies I saw in the mosque, the 40 of them, contained no such

22     corpses as described by Drewienkiewicz.  Dr. Dobricanin is a forensic

23     expert.  What he said on the spot and what I repeated was video recorded.

24     You can hear him speaking, examining the bodies, saying these injuries to

25     the head were caused by animals or birds since the corpses had lain

Page 13080

 1     outdoors.  Among the 40, there was not a corpse who had been decapitated,

 2     as Drewienkiewicz would have it.

 3        Q.   Now, you also testified yesterday that the conclusion was that

 4     the cause of death of all these bodies were injuries they sustained from

 5     fire-arms, hand-held weapons, and that they had been shot at from a

 6     distance.  Now, we have evidence that General Drewienkiewicz and other

 7     internationals saw the bodies or the bodies they viewed appeared to have

 8     been shot in the head at close range.  Do you agree or disagree with that

 9     observation?

10        A.   I don't.  I was not able to observe the same thing

11     Mr. Drewienkiewicz did.  We have the conclusions of the commission in

12     written form.  The forensic experts stated their opinions.  I merely read

13     out one of their sentences, one of their conclusions.  The 40 bodies

14     found in the mosque which they carried autopsies of is what we had.

15     Whether there were any other casualties, I don't know.  I know of no such

16     cases described by Mr. Drewienkiewicz.  I only know that there was a

17     discrepancy between the number of bodies found in the mosque and the

18     number of bodies in the schedule of the indictment against Mr. Milosevic.

19     With the prosecutors we were able to --

20        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] ... yesterday and I believe you answered

21     my question.  Do you agree or disagree with that observation?  I don't, I

22     was not able to observe the same thing Mr. Drewienkiewicz did.

23             MS. GOPALAN:  I'd like to call up a video, and this is the video

24     that I mentioned early on, Your Honours.  And Mr. Djordjevic had

25     requested some provenance information on the video.  And what we have is

Page 13081

 1     that it is an edited version of a video that we obtained from a human

 2     rights verifier of the OSCE, someone called M. Pedersen.  And the date of

 3     the video is the 16th of January, 1999.  When the video starts there will

 4     also be further information provided about its provenance as well.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Are we to have sound?

 7             MS. GOPALAN:  Yes, we are, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, I think we need to stop what is happening

 9     and go back to the beginning and find the sound.

10             MS. GOPALAN:  Your Honours, we seem to be having a problem with

11     the sound system.  I wonder if I could provide the information verbally

12     and we could return to the speaking portion of the video.  The rest of

13     the video is just visual, and it's not necessary to have sound.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic.

15             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Defence is opposed

16     to this way of establishing the authenticity of the document especially

17     as such footage, and we had a chance to see it, contains sequences that

18     differ greatly in quality especially with regard to resolution and pixels

19     as part of it are high quality, parts of it are low quality.  So the

20     Defence is inclined to believe that this is -- was produced in ill faith.

21     We are not saying that the Prosecution did it, but whoever made the

22     recording should probably also testify to it.  And we are also inclined

23     to submit that this should be inspected by an expert to establish the

24     authenticity of this footage, and it's a very long recording.  I believe

25     the overall length is about half an hour.

Page 13082

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Is that the case, Ms. Gopalan?

 2             MS. GOPALAN:  In relation to length, Your Honours?

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

 4             MS. GOPALAN:  The total video is about 30 minutes, but I had

 5     selected some clips to show to the witness, so in terms of the duration

 6     of what we would be viewing in the courtroom will just be a few minutes,

 7     Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Now, have you made progress with the sound

 9     connections?

10             MS. GOPALAN:  Doesn't appear to be the case, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  I think for practicality and to move along

12     conscious of what Mr. Djordjevic has said, we should allow the clips that

13     you wish to put to the witness to be played and to hear the witness's

14     comments, but the question of whether the video or the clips will be

15     accepted as genuine and reliable will be a question that will remain

16     alive and subject to some verification or evidence of another sort.  So

17     we will certainly not receive it as an exhibit at the moment.  It will

18     need to be marked if it's played, but we will allow the witness to

19     comment on it because that is the significance for the moment of what you

20     intend.

21                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

22             JUDGE PARKER:  If we play the extracted clips that you wish.

23             MS. GOPALAN:  Yes.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             MS. GOPALAN:

Page 13083

 1        Q.   Now, ma'am, we can see from this video-clip on the screen that

 2     this is a person who has been decapitated; correct?  Did you see that?

 3        A.   Yes, yes.

 4        Q.   And now.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             MS. GOPALAN:

 7        Q.   Now, you would agree that this is a head wound?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And does this appear to have been caused by birds or animals?

10        A.   I'm not an expert to comment such things.

11        Q.   Now, does this appear to be military clothing to you?

12        A.   Well, you know something, let us get something straight here.

13     The bodies that I found at Racak, those bodies were in the mosque.  These

14     are not the same bodies that we saw here.  I don't know about these

15     bodies.  These two bodies, well, it's clear what happened to them.  We

16     saw what they were like, but I didn't find them in Racak.  I went around

17     the whole village, but I didn't see these bodies anywhere.  I really

18     cannot comment.  Was this footage made by an authorised person --

19        Q.   You remember seeing precisely which bodies you saw?  And you are

20     sure that you didn't see these bodies?

21        A.   Not these.  And they didn't wear such clothing.  I told you what

22     kind of bodies I saw, and there is also video footage where you can see

23     how each body was dressed and what kind of clothes.  I believe you saw

24     the pictures and images that we submitted as evidence.

25        Q.   And this is another body that appears to have suffered a head

Page 13084

 1     wound; correct?

 2        A.   I don't know.  I cannot comment.

 3        Q.   You see that --

 4        A.   If they had been --

 5        Q.   You don't think this looks like a head wound, ma'am?

 6        A.   Well, I can think what I want.  I can see something red here, but

 7     I haven't seen the body directly.  I should have -- that's necessary for

 8     me to describe it.  This might be red dye, but this also could be blood.

 9     The bodies that you are showing me are bodies that I didn't see in Racak.

10     They weren't in the mosque where I saw and identified 40 bodies.

11        Q.   Now, these bodies here, ma'am, they are not in military clothing,

12     are they?  We'll have a look at that again.

13        A.   Well, as far as I can tell, they are wearing civilian clothes of

14     lively colours.  Some have dark trousers, but I can't really make out

15     what kind of clothes those are.  This is an image that I think I first

16     saw on television when it was published by Walker.  If Walker had wanted

17     to co-operate with us, I should have gone to this spot as an

18     investigating judge and established the facts with Walker rather than

19     Walker going there alone.  He wasn't authorised to conduct on-site

20     investigations and show footage on TV and draw premature conclusions.  I

21     don't know where Walker found them.  He is the only one who knows.

22             MS. GOPALAN:  Thank you, ma'am.  Your Honours, I'll ask that this

23     video is marked for identification, and I will also note that this video

24     is referred to in the statement of General Drewienkiewicz which is in

25     evidence before this Tribunal or this Trial Chamber.

Page 13085

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  We'll, at the moment only be marked for

 2     identification, Ms. Gopalan.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1575 marked for identification, Your

 4     Honours.

 5             MS. GOPALAN:

 6        Q.   Ma'am, yesterday you testified about the 40 bodies that you've

 7     talked about, the 40 bodies in the mosque, and you said Dr. Dobricanin

 8     inspected each body visually and immediately stated out loud that there

 9     was no trace of any slaughter on those bodies.  So based on a visual

10     inspection of 40 bodies in the room, the forensic expert was able to

11     declare that there hadn't been any slaughter?

12        A.   That's not correct what you are saying.  He directly examined

13     each body visually and he only commented by saying, I cannot see traces

14     of massacre on these bodies.  He didn't use the word "slaughter," nor did

15     I relate his words in that way.  He visually expected each body

16     individually and stated that there are no traces to the effect that they

17     were massacred, and later on they were autopsied to establish the cause

18     of death of each individual body.

19        Q.   Now, ma'am, you then made a statement, a public statement that

20     these bodies hadn't been massacred; correct?

21        A.   Depends when I said it.  I don't know.

22        Q.   On the 20th of January, 1999.

23        A.   To who did I say that?

24             MS. GOPALAN:  Let's call up 65 ter 6071, please.

25        Q.   Yes, we see the article on the screen.  Do you see the article

Page 13086

 1     head "They Were Not Massacred"?

 2        A.   I can see the headline, but I cannot read the article proper

 3     because it's illegible.

 4             MS. GOPALAN:  Could we zoom in, please.  It's the small box at

 5     the bottom, on the bottom right-hand --

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see it, now it's better.

 7             MS. GOPALAN:

 8        Q.   Would you like it bigger?  Are you able to read it?

 9        A.   I can see it now.

10        Q.   Now, the English says:

11             "Danica Marinkovic said:  'The terrorist' corpses have not been

12     massacred, as the more than biased head of Kosovo Verification Mission

13     KVM William Walker has claimed."

14             Do you see that?

15        A.   Yeah, well, you have read out only a part of the article, but if

16     you read it all, then the context of my statement is different.

17        Q.   Do you agree, though, that -- or was that your view at the time

18     that the terrorist corpses had not been massacred?

19        A.   It wasn't my view.  I had a direct look at the bodies that we

20     found in the mosque and Dobricanin as an expert stated his opinion that

21     there were no traces to that effect.  But, of course, I added that the

22     cause of death would be established by an autopsy, so it isn't my view,

23     or my opinion, or my conclusion.

24        Q.   So at this stage the autopsies hadn't been completed yet;

25     correct?

Page 13087

 1        A.   On the 19th, the autopsies started.  On two or three bodies the

 2     autopsy had already been performed.

 3        Q.   And you hadn't been able to locate the pit or the gullies where

 4     the bodies had been found, the location that Walker had indicated in the

 5     broadcast; correct?

 6        A.   Correct.  We were unable to find the location or the bodies.

 7        Q.   And you didn't interview any survivors, did you?

 8        A.   When, on the day when I conducted the on-site investigation?

 9        Q.   Yes.

10        A.   No.  Because we didn't meet anyone in the village.  The village

11     was empty.  And I had no right to speak to them.  I could only take the

12     personal information of anyone who was an eye-witness, but we didn't find

13     anybody in the village.

14        Q.   And yet you made this statement or you held the view that there

15     hadn't been a massacre.  Now, does that strike you as an objective

16     investigation, ma'am?

17        A.   Well, you know, Madam Prosecutor, Walker gave a statement that

18     the bodies had been massacred and he had no evidence to support that or

19     he didn't conduct an on-site investigation.  And when I said that he

20     didn't say the truth, I wanted to express that there was a different

21     opinion and that the forensic medicine expert already had stated that

22     there had been no massacre.  So I don't see that what I say is all that

23     bad.

24        Q.   My apologies.  Now, the forensic expert that we have seen, that

25     was based on his visual examination, and we are not talking about Walker

Page 13088

 1     at the moment, ma'am.  We are talking about the investigation you

 2     conducted.  And I put to you, ma'am, that you did not conduct an

 3     objective investigation and the purpose of your investigation was to

 4     clear the name of the MUP.  Do you agree or disagree?

 5        A.   You cannot claim that because you don't know what I did.  And

 6     secondly, I say that Walker had no right to go to the site without the

 7     judicial bodies present.  And he had no right to say that there had been

 8     a massacre before the facts are established.  Because it serves no one,

 9     not you, not me.  And I was an investigating judge who merely conducted

10     an investigative activity, an investigative measure, not an entire

11     investigation.  It was merely an on-site investigation.

12             MS. GOPALAN:  Thank you, ma'am.  Your Honours, I believe it's

13     time for the break.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  It's over time.  We will resume at five minutes

15     past 6.00.

16                           [The witness stands down]

17                           --- Recess taken at 5.36 p.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 6.11 p.m.

19             MS. GOPALAN:  Your Honours, while the witness is being brought in

20     I am reminded that I did not tender the last newspaper Article, 06071 and

21     I'd like to have that admitted into evidence, please.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit P1576, Your Honours.

24             MS. GOPALAN:  And the sound issue with the video has been

25     resolved as well, Your Honours, so I'll play the beginning of the video

Page 13089

 1     which provides information --

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Do you expect to be long now with the witness?

 3             MS. GOPALAN:  My estimate would be another half-hour or so, Your

 4     Honours.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  I wonder whether we might finish tonight.

 6             MS. GOPALAN:  I'm hopeful.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  You are hopeful you will finish but Mr. Djordjevic

 8     may need some time.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Ms. Gopalan.

11             MS. GOPALAN:

12        Q.   Ma'am, the bodies that you saw in the mosque on the 18th, now,

13     these were the bodies that had been killed in Racak on the 15th; correct?

14        A.   You know what, I cannot assert with any certainty that these were

15     the bodies.  I found them in Racak and I suppose they had been killed on

16     the 15th.

17        Q.   Let's move on to the video that we were viewing just before.

18             MS. GOPALAN:  If I could call that up, it's P1575.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             MS. GOPALAN:

21        Q.   Now, ma'am, the video that has just been played, the information

22     provided states that this was a video that was taken in Racak on the

23     16th.  Are you aware that the KVM went to Racak on that date; correct?

24        A.   That day in the evening, you could see it on TV.  I can see this

25     footage here as well.  However, this was done by unauthorised staff who

Page 13090

 1     entered Racak without any state institution representatives.

 2        Q.   Yes, ma'am.  And as the video is played --

 3             MS. GOPALAN:  If we could have a look at it, it's just a short

 4     clip.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             MS. GOPALAN:

 7        Q.   Now, I represent to you that this is what was seen by the KVM on

 8     the 16th.  These were the bodies that were seen by William Walker on that

 9     day.  Ma'am, if you had seen what the KVM saw on the 16th, what we are

10     just viewing now, would you have said that a massacre had occurred?

11        A.   I can only tell you that I'm not an expert to ascertain that.

12     Neither was Walker.  Had we found these bodies, we would have carried out

13     autopsies in order to establish the cause of death.

14        Q.   Ma'am, we went through a newspaper report and based on your

15     testimony yesterday as well where you declared that a massacre hadn't

16     occurred even before you conducted an autopsy; correct?

17        A.   It is not, Madam Prosecutor.  I have said it a number of times,

18     the bodies of those whom we found in Racak were not the same as the

19     bodies shown to me now.  As an investigating judge, I can also put the

20     question of about whether these people were actually killed there on the

21     spot or were they brought from somewhere else.  There is a degree of

22     suspicion, of course, because Walker did so without any representatives

23     of state institutions.  Had we done this jointly, we would have been able

24     to provide a joint conclusion.  As for what I could see in Racak in the

25     mosque, the 40 bodies there, not a single body had any traces of

Page 13091

 1     slaughter.  Speaking from my experience, I can say that, and there was

 2     also a forensic expert there who was the person authorised to provide an

 3     opinion on that.

 4        Q.   Thank you, ma'am.  Is this professor Dobricanin that you are

 5     referring to?

 6        A.   Yes, he was there throughout the on-site investigation.

 7             MS. GOPALAN:  Your Honours, I would like to tender this clip into

 8     evidence.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  We'll leave that question for the moment.  In view

10     of what has been raised by Mr. Djordjevic, we'll consider that at a later

11     time.  We are not dealing with that question now, Mr. Djordjevic, we are

12     leaving it until a later time.  Are you moving on, Ms. --

13             MS. GOPALAN:  Yes, yes, I am, Your Honours.

14        Q.   Now, ma'am, you gave a statement to this Tribunal in 2002;

15     correct?  We can call it up for you to have a look at it.  It's 06082.

16        A.   If you mean the statement I gave to an investigator of the

17     Prosecution, I think it was in 2002.

18        Q.   That's right, ma'am.  It's 06082.  Now, that was about three and

19     a half years after the Racak incident; correct?

20        A.   Could I have the statement placed on the screen, please.

21        Q.   It's being called up, ma'am, we have asked for it.

22        A.   Very well.

23        Q.   So the statement that you gave in 2002, you seem to remember it,

24     and you say that was about three and a half years after events in Kosovo;

25     correct?

Page 13092

 1        A.   In 2002, yes.

 2        Q.   Now, did you have an accurate memory of the events in Kosovo in

 3     2002?

 4             MS. GOPALAN:  I see that the statement is not up yet.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 2002 I was no longer in Kosovo

 6     and Metohija, therefore, I cannot tell you exactly what was taking place

 7     there.  I'm not even sure what you are interested in precisely.  If I

 8     have any knowledge of it, I can share it with you.  But I wasn't in

 9     Kosovo any longer.  I was interviewed by a Hague investigator in

10     Belgrade.

11             MS. GOPALAN:

12        Q.   Now, we have the statement on the screen, ma'am, and we see that

13     you have signed this statement.  I represent to you that you have signed

14     every page of it.

15             MS. GOPALAN:  And if we could go to the end both in the B/C/S and

16     the English.

17        Q.   You have certified the statement as being accurate.

18        A.   Could I please see the contents.  I can only see the front page.

19        Q.   Do you see the final page, ma'am?

20        A.   Yes, I can.

21        Q.   And your certification that this statement is accurate?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And were you accurate and truthful in the statement, ma'am?

24        A.   Certainly.

25        Q.   You testified before this Tribunal in the Milosevic case; right?

Page 13093

 1        A.   Yes, I did.

 2        Q.   And when you testified there, you took an oath to tell the truth?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And that was in 2005, so about six years after the events in

 5     Kosovo; right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And did you do your best to give an accurate and complete picture

 8     or to provide accurate and complete information to the Court in the

 9     Milosevic case?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Ma'am, in your 2002 statement and in your Milosevic testimony,

12     you gave evidence about the Racak investigation; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And you've already said that you testified correctly and

15     truthfully, and you also testified about events on the 18th of January in

16     Racak; right?

17        A.   Yes.

18             MS. GOPALAN:  Could I call up 65 ter 3115, which is this

19     witness's Milosevic testimony.  Page 107.  Could we go to the next page,

20     please.

21        Q.   Now, it says here:

22             "On the 18th, in addition to our team and OSCE representatives,

23     there were many representatives of foreign and local media."

24             Now, ma'am, you are being examined by Mr. Milosevic here, and

25     this is in relation to events in Racak.  So you say:

Page 13094

 1             "On the 18th, in addition to our team and OSCE representatives,

 2     there were many representatives of foreign and local media."

 3             "Q. You mentioned that already.  Was there anyone else?

 4             "A. I don't know who you mean.  I can't think of anyone at the

 5     moment.

 6             "Q. I don't mean anyone in particular.  I'm just asking."

 7             Now, you didn't mention General Djordjevic being in Racak on the

 8     18th, did you?

 9        A.   That is correct, I wasn't asked about him at the time.  Regarding

10     the 18th and the presence of media representatives, that is correct, but

11     they were present on the spot when we entered Racak.

12        Q.   So you didn't mention General Djordjevic being in Racak on the

13     18th because you weren't asked about him at that time.

14             MS. GOPALAN:  Could we have a look at your statement again.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] General Djordjevic was not in

16     Racak.  I never said so.

17             MS. GOPALAN:

18        Q.   Now, you didn't mention General Djordjevic being in the Stimlje

19     police station on the 18th, did you, in the Milosevic case?

20        A.   I didn't, that is correct.  No one asked me about it, and I

21     didn't find it necessary to mention.  I didn't even mention Mitic being

22     there.  I didn't mention anyone in particular.  I didn't mention the

23     chief Janicijevic either.

24        Q.   Now if we could have a look at your statement again.

25             MS. GOPALAN:  And that is 06082.  And if we go to page 12.

Page 13095

 1        Q.   I'll read out the paragraph for you.

 2        A.   But I can't see the heading of this.  What is this?  It says

 3     statement.

 4        Q.   Yes, ma'am, this is your statement that we just saw shortly, the

 5     one that you provided to the Tribunal in 2002.  And in the English, I'm

 6     looking at the paragraph on page 12 that begins with:  "On the 18th of

 7     January..." and in the B/C/S, that's on page 9.

 8        A.   But I can't see a paragraph starting with the 18th.

 9        Q.   It's at the bottom of the page currently on the screen, ma'am.

10        A.   Oh, yes, now I see it.

11        Q.   And we'll move it shortly to the next paragraph, to the next page

12     so you are able to read it in full.  Now, let me read this paragraph.  It

13     says:

14             "On 18th January, 1999, I travelled from Pristina to Stimlje

15     police station with the Prosecutor Dragomir Zivic and Professor

16     Dobricanin.  I did not go to any other police station other than Stimlje.

17     There we met inspector Srecko Dabetic --"

18        A.   This isn't what the translation says.  The sentence starts "there

19     we met," that is, the last sentence you read out is missing from the

20     translation.

21             MS. GOPALAN:  We can move on to the next page, please, of the

22     B/C/S and stay on the same page of the English.

23        Q.   Do you see it there now?

24        A.   Yes.  At the top it starts "there to collect evidence at the

25     site."

Page 13096

 1        Q.   I'll follow on with the English which reads:

 2             "There we met inspector Srecko Dabetic and Sasa LNU, crime

 3     technician from SUP Urosevac.  (These are the names that I could not

 4     remember yesterday).  There was another crime technician, Mica LNU, who

 5     was there to video record the on-site evidence.  I asked the duty

 6     policeman what the situation was like during the night, if there had been

 7     any shooting throughout the night and the morning, and he said it had

 8     been peaceful.  The police did not tell me that the mosque was secured

 9     and under police security or how many bodies were in there.  With this

10     information of no provocation, I decided that we would enter Racak at

11     about noon to commence the investigation."

12             Now, ma'am, in this statement you provide great detail on who was

13     in the Stimlje police station on the 18th.  You mention the Prosecutor,

14     you mention a professor, you mention an inspector, and you mention two

15     crime technicians.  And you are telling us now that you did not mention

16     that the chief of the RJB, Mr. Djordjevic, was also there?

17        A.   You know something, let's clarify this.  What I said here in the

18     statement where I mention the names of those present, this refers to the

19     members of the on-site investigation team because Dabetic is an inspector

20     of general crime of the Urosevac SUP.  He is one of the members of the

21     on-site investigation team.  The other persons are crime technicians

22     also, members of the on-site investigation team, and they are mentioned

23     in my on-site investigation report as being with me all the time.

24     General Djordjevic was not a team member, nor did he have any authority

25     with regard to the on-site investigation.  He came to speak to his

Page 13097

 1     colleagues, to the chief of the secretariat, and check whether the

 2     situation on the ground was peaceful for the on-site investigation to

 3     take place.  He came when we were already upstairs where there was also

 4     the chief of the secretariat and the chief of the department of the

 5     police.  He briefly spoke to his colleagues, inquired about the situation

 6     in the field and we got up.

 7             General Djordjevic didn't interfere with the work nor was it

 8     necessary for me to mention him in the on-site investigation report

 9     because he wasn't a team member or couldn't be present in any capacity.

10     And nor did anybody ask me about him until my examination here began.

11     But these people here who are team members, they were present.  I said

12     the truth.  Take a look at my report and you will see that the same

13     persons are mentioned in the on-site investigation report.

14        Q.   So, ma'am, in a statement you gave to this Tribunal and in

15     previous testimony to this Tribunal, what events in relation to Racak

16     were discussed, you simply failed to mention that the chief of the RJB

17     was present at the Stimlje police station on the 18th?

18        A.   You know, I didn't fail to mention that.  I considered it as a

19     piece of non-essential information.  It didn't occur to me that it would

20     matter to this Court that I mention General Djordjevic.  But I have said

21     the truth in every statement I have given, but nobody has asked me about

22     him until now.

23        Q.   Ma'am, given that the conflict in Racak was a high-profile case,

24     high-profile incident, it was in the media, and it was a conflict

25     involving the police, you considered it a non-essential piece of

Page 13098

 1     information to say that the head of the RJB was in the Stimlje police

 2     station on the 18th of January?

 3        A.   Well, you know, he is not the only one I didn't mention.  I

 4     didn't mention the chief of the secretariat or the chief of the

 5     department of the police, and I don't think that is essential information

 6     because the incident that happened in Racak was in the morning hours of

 7     the 15th, and I went to the on-site investigation from the 15th to the

 8     18th and I set out to go there every morning on those days.

 9        Q.   So, ma'am, until yesterday you have never told this Tribunal that

10     General Djordjevic came to the Stimlje police station on the 18th of

11     January, have you?

12        A.   No, I haven't.  Nobody asked me.  I didn't consider that

13     essential.  And that applies not only to him but to other persons as

14     well.

15        Q.   Thank you, ma'am.

16             MS. GOPALAN:  Your Honours, I'd like to tender the Milosevic

17     testimony and the statement into evidence, please.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  You mean the whole of the Milosevic testimony?

19             MS. GOPALAN:  Perhaps just the portion that I showed to the

20     witness, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  What pages were they?

22             MS. GOPALAN:  Pages 107 to 108, please.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  They will be received.  The statement will also be

24     received.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit P1577 and P1578, Your

Page 13099

 1     Honours.

 2             MS. GOPALAN:

 3        Q.   Now, you said that the reason you hadn't told this Tribunal about

 4     General Djordjevic's presence in the Stimlje police station was because

 5     "nobody asked me."  Now, ma'am, during your testimony yesterday no one

 6     asked you either.  In fact, you just volunteered this information, didn't

 7     you?

 8        A.   I mentioned it because I knew it was important because I prepared

 9     for my testimony by the Defence, and I reviewed the evidence and the

10     statements in this trial.

11        Q.   Now, ma'am, did you also mention it because you are aware that

12     this is a contested issue in this case?

13        A.   No, I didn't know it was contested, but during the proofing with

14     the Defence counsel about the question to be asked, to be -- this arose

15     as an issue in that it's important to mention, and that's why I reckoned

16     I should mention it.

17             MS. GOPALAN:  Your Honours, I have no further questions for this

18     witness.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much, Ms. Gopalan.

20             Mr. Djordjevic.

21             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  I have some problem with this microphone.  Now,

22     it's okay.

23                           Re-examination by Mr. Djordjevic:

24        Q.   I believe we will be able to conclude this witness's testimony

25     today and that is why I ask you, Ms. Marinkovic, to provide brief answers

Page 13100

 1     to my questions.

 2             I tried to shed light on as many details as possible in my direct

 3     examination about the situation in Kosovo and Metohija and about the job

 4     of an investigating judge.  Concerning the fact that my learned friend

 5     Ms. Gopalan insisted on the injuries sustained by -- or claimed by

 6     Mr. Balaj and others, let me ask you, do you have the right to conduct an

 7     investigation outside the request to conduct an investigation by the

 8     public prosecutor?

 9        A.   I cannot see the interpretation.

10             No, I don't have that right.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Secondly, we saw that those injuries were, in fact,

12     light injuries.  Since the criminal report was filed by the police or

13     alternatively if the police did so, or sorry, the defence counsel of any

14     of these persons did so, is there the possibility in that the Criminal

15     Code of Serbia or Yugoslavia or rather an incrimination called inflicting

16     light injuries?

17        A.   Yes, in the Serbian Criminal Code there is such a criminal

18     offence.

19        Q.   And which court is -- has subject matter jurisdiction for light

20     injuries?

21        A.   I cannot see the translation on the monitor.

22             The territorial jurisdiction and the subject matter jurisdiction

23     for light bodily injuries are with the municipal court.

24        Q.   Thank you.  And even if a criminal report had been filed, were

25     you in a position to conduct an examination into that as an investigating

Page 13101

 1     judge of the district court?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  My second question, we heard hearsay incriminations

 4     that you are a judge who favours the police.  Please explain to this

 5     court whether you as an investigating judge at the time acted upon the

 6     request of the police or upon the request of the district public

 7     prosecutor.

 8        A.   As investigating judge, I always acted upon the request of the

 9     district public prosecutor.

10        Q.   Did the police have any authority to manage the proceedings and

11     have such a request of you?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Did any government body have such authority?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   My following question has to do with another question of my

16     learned friend Ms. Gopalan.  Is it required for you to be the only

17     authorised person, if you run an investigation, to grant permission to

18     forward the accused person to be visited, or can that be done by one of

19     your colleagues in your absence?

20        A.   Yes, in my absence, another colleague can do that.  And since

21     there were many cases and many accused persons, there was a court clerk

22     who was in the position to give such permits to lawyers and family

23     members, so that this administrative job was done by a clerk rather than

24     a judge.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Now this is clear also.  Ms. Marinkovic, or Judge

Page 13102

 1     Marinkovic, please answer me, when you said that Mr. Walker shouldn't

 2     have done what he did in the field and we know that my learned friend

 3     says that that footage was produced during an investigation of their own,

 4     is there a problem that amounts to the destruction of evidence, moving

 5     bodies about, was that problem raised immediately after you arrived at

 6     the site on the 18th?  I am not saying the 15th.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, did Mr. Drewienkiewicz mention the existence

 9     of the KLA, or rather, of KLA members at the site in Racak at all?  Did

10     he tell you that KLA members were there?

11        A.   No, he said villagers.  He said armed villagers.  He never

12     mentioned KLA members.

13        Q.   With no single word about the KLA?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   But we have very little time left so I won't go back to the

16     names, but you say that on the 18th OSCE representatives, or rather the

17     KVM were present too; right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Did they mention that?

20        A.   No.

21             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]  Thank you.  Since the Defence

22     is not currently in the position of that videotape, we have an agreement

23     with the Prosecution to enable the Trial Chamber to play two video-clips

24     upon the request of the Defence.  The first clip with regard to that

25     footage, but we will not agree yet to it being admitted as evidence, is

Page 13103

 1     from 17 minutes 18 seconds to 17 minutes 31 seconds.  Can we see that on

 2     our screens, please.  Is that possible, Madam Prosecutor?  It seems to be

 3     possible.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Could I indicate to help you, Mr. Djordjevic, that

 5     we realise that we may be asking too much of you to finish tonight so

 6     that can you have time tomorrow as well, if you need it.

 7             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] To be honest, if I could be

 8     given an additional 20 minutes, that would contribute to clarifying many

 9     issues, and I don't have 20 minutes today.  Of course, I will agree to

10     continue tomorrow, I'm very grateful to the Chamber for that.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  You would like to watch the video now?  Play the

12     video now?  Tomorrow?  It's proposed that we adjourn a few minutes early

13     and continue tomorrow which in fairness seems appropriate.  We must ask

14     you to come again tomorrow, I am afraid.  We resume at 2.15 tomorrow.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.52 p.m.

17                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 19th day of March,

18                           2010, at 2.15 p.m.