1 Tuesday, 23 March 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. They may be better over the top of
7 your head, not behind. The earphones. Thank you. Please sit down.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 JUDGE PARKER: The affirmation you made to tell the truth still
11 Mr. Popovic.
12 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
13 WITNESS: VUKMIR MIRCIC [Resumed]
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 Examination by Mr. Popovic: [Continued]
16 Q. Good morning, Mr. Mircic.
17 A. Good morning.
18 Q. We will resume. The binder is before you.
19 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see D001-6283.
20 Q. It is your tab 8. This is a criminal report dated 29 June 1998
21 submitted to the district public prosecutor's office in Pec against six
22 individuals. If you look at page 3 in both languages, in the statement
23 of reasons, because of which the report was filed, it is stated that on
24 the 25th of June, 1998, around 4.30 they unloaded a shipment of weapons
25 in the village of Jasic
1 of DTG. I merely wanted to ask you whether this reflects your
2 information about the situation in the Decani municipality?
3 A. Yes. This report was submitted by the state security by their
4 office in Djakovica which was under the Prizren centre. It is correct
5 that on page 3 there is a description stating that in Jasici, in the
6 school there, which is close to Decani and Junik next to the Albanian
7 border, our operational information states that the information contained
8 therein is correct, and that there was a shipment of weapons there which
9 was to be distributed to the Albanian population.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek to tender this
13 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
14 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D00911, Your Honour.
15 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we next see D106.
16 Q. It is your tab 9. Mr. Mircic, this is a decision by Minister
17 Stojiljkovic dated 19 July 1998
19 "For having distinguished themselves in carrying out the security
20 tasks of prevention of terrorism in the area of the Autonomous province
21 of Kosovo and Metohija since 20 July 1998, I hereby award the PJP, SAJ,
22 and JSO members with 50 dinars for every day of engagement."
23 Have you had occasion to see this decision before?
24 A. Yes, I did. I have. I saw it at the collegium meeting of the
25 SUPs of chief in Djakovica. We were informed that pursuant to a specific
1 article of the Law on the Interior, the minister made this decision that
2 the following persons be awarded for having distinguished themselves in
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we next go to D107.
6 Q. It is the next tab, tab 10. I'll have a few questions about
7 that. Here you can see a dispatch of the staff of the ministry dated 20
8 October 1998 where it says in para 1:
9 "In accordance with the ministry's decision on rewarding PJP
10 members, SAJ, and JSO members, for excelling in the implementation of
11 security related tasks in the area of Kosovo and Metohija, lists must be
12 drawn up from the period from 18 September to 17 October 1998 (at 50
13 dinars per day)."
14 First of all, are you familiar with this dispatch?
15 A. Yes, I was familiar with it because it was sent to all chiefs and
16 general affairs departments in the SUPs in Kosovo and at the collegium
17 session we were acquainted with the dispatch.
18 Q. Does this dispatch have anything to do with the decision we just
20 A. Yes, it comes as a result of the decision issued by the minister.
21 Q. Yesterday you told us that within your OUP for your own purposes
22 and records, you also kept records of PJP members being engaged in
23 certain tasks, that is to say, when they left and came back after which
24 they would again be assigned to regular duties. Is this dispatch in line
25 with the register you kept?
1 A. Yes, of course it is.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have D108 next.
4 Q. It is your tab 11. Another dispatch of the ministry staff in
5 Pristina dated 3 August 1998
6 wanted to ask you to acquaint yourself briefly with the dispatch and
7 comment. First I'd like to know whether you are familiar with it, and if
8 so, please tell us something about it.
9 A. Of course I'm familiar with it. At a working meeting of the
10 chiefs of secretariat we were acquainted with the dispatch of the MUP
11 staffs signed by General Sreten Lukic. Given that the staff in Pristina
12 was established by both public security and state security sectors, it
13 is -- there's information here stating that certain Albanians who
14 participated in the terrorist activities at KiM are making use of
15 falsified doctored certificates and in order to escape mop-up terrorist
16 operations and used to enter towns. Because of this, certain measures
17 were proposed. One of which were detail searches of individuals and
18 bringing them in for criminal investigation for identification checking
19 operative and criminal records, conducting paraffin tests, as well as
20 other operational and investigative measures in keeping with the Law on
21 the Interior.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see D109.
24 Q. It is your tab 12. Again the same question. This seems to be
25 another dispatch of the MUP staff in Pristina dated 3 August 1998. Are
1 you familiar with it? I won't read it out. It is rather brief. Please
2 read it to yourself and provide a brief comment of the contents.
3 A. Yes. This is another dispatch that was shown to us at the
4 collegium of the secretariat chiefs. It was read out to all those in
5 attendance and distributed forward. It also contains information of
6 possible attacks by terrorist groups in some towns or municipal centres
7 in order to take them. Based on that information, certain measures are
8 proposed. Given that in keeping with the instructions for the defence of
9 inhabited places, it is necessary to draw up defence plans for each
10 municipal centre and submit them to the staff by 6 August 1998 at the
12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down when
14 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 A. In addition to this and in order to provide timely and accurate
16 information, you also need to submit reports/dispatches --
17 Q. Please read out slowly and approach the microphone.
18 A. In addition to this and in order to provide timely and accurate
19 information, you also need to submit reports/dispatches on incidents in
20 which policemen were killed or wounded to the secretariats in which they
22 This resembles the other dispatch we saw when we discussed the
23 PJP concerning reporting from the field on those killed and wounded.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we next see D240, please.
1 Q. It is your tab 13. Mr. Mircic, this is a dispatch of the
2 ministry staff in Pristina dated 9 August 1998. I'm particularly
3 interested in the last paragraph where it is stated that measures need to
4 be taken in different companies which have construction machinery in
5 order to demolish and fill in bunkers, shelters, trenches, and other
6 features constructed by the terrorists for protection and firing on the
7 police and members of the Yugoslav Army so that they cannot occupy and
8 use them again. First of all, tell us, please, whether in the territory
9 of your OUP there were such features, things like bunkers, trenches, and
10 shelters, and if there were any, please tell us about their location?
11 A. Yes, in every village in my area there were bunkers, trenches,
12 which were there for protection in case of attack of Serb forces. We can
13 basically say that each and every village had such bunkers and trenches.
14 Q. Who dug out those trenches and who built those bunkers?
15 A. The villagers themselves. They were basically forced by the KLA
16 so that there is some protection in case of an attack by the Serb police.
17 Q. Who made use of those trenches and bunkers?
18 A. They were used by KLA.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see D008-0550. It
21 is your tab 14. We can move on to the next page in both languages.
22 Q. Mr. Mircic, this is a record of the hand-over of weapons in Junik
23 on the 23rd of August, 1998. Are you familiar with this document?
24 A. Yes, I am familiar with it. This is a record of weapons found in
25 the village of Junik
1 depot. For some reasons, the KLA must have left those weapons there
2 probably to distribute them further in different villages.
3 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honours, I would
4 like to tender this into evidence.
5 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
6 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit D00912, Your Honour.
7 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we now see
9 Q. That's your tab 15. Mr. Mircic, this is a statement by Adrian
10 Kumnova given to an authorised official of the Republic of Serbia MUP
11 the 24th of August 1998 in the Djakovica SUP premises. And in the first
12 paragraph of this statement that person states that a member of the
13 illegal terrorist group for Djakovica with headquarters in the village of
14 Glodjani, Decani municipality, which is where the reception centre is
15 located for members of sabotage terrorist group for the territory of Ras
16 Dukagjini, I became a member of that group voluntarily in June of 1998.
17 And then further on in the middle of that page, he says on the following
18 day, When the flag was raised at 700 hours by Ramush Haradinaj of
19 Glodjane village, who was a commander of the staff of DTG, which is a
20 sabotage terrorist group from Metohija, we were told and then so on and
21 so on. What I want to know is what did you know about the village of
22 Glodjane and what did you know about Ramush Haradinaj?
23 A. Our information concerning the village of Glodjane
24 municipality was always derived from intelligence sources. We always had
25 timely information and confirmed information that in this territory and
1 in this village there was a staff or headquarters located of the members
2 of a DTG sabotage terrorist group headed by Ramush Haradinaj who was a
3 commander for the Metohija area.
4 In this village, which is located quite close to Jablanica and
5 strategically was a very favourable position for them for training and
6 other activities and exercises, Ramush Haradinaj created and recruited a
7 group there with members whom he trained in order to carry out sabotage
8 and terrorist acts against the members of the Yugoslav police and army.
9 You can see that based on the statement of a member of this group who
10 stayed in the village of Glodjane
11 Intelligence information -- confirmed intelligence indicated that
12 in Glodjane, there was also a prison which served to keep members of Serb
13 ethnicity there who had been kidnapped in the territory of other villages
14 in Decani municipality and brought there to be questioned. As I have
15 said yesterday, due to some friendly relations, one such person was
16 released and the rest were kept there.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see page 2 of this
20 Q. And on the second page this person says, Exactly 14 days ago,
21 together with a DTG from Djakovica at about 900 hours in the village of
22 Prilep, fire was opened from ambush on the members of police. This was a
23 terrorist act on our part. Does this correspond to the information you
24 had about the activities of terrorists, and does this -- is this
25 consistent with information you had about the location?
1 A. Yes, it is true that in this period of time which this person
2 mentions in the village of Prilep
3 members of the MUP of Serbia. We had both fatalities among them and also
4 seriously injured persons. Prilep was also quite favourable
5 strategically for members of the KLA because it was located in the
6 vicinity of Glodjane, and it gravitated towards other villages in the
7 border area, border with Albania
8 them, for infiltration of further terrorist groups and weaponry.
9 Q. When speaking of Prilep, can you please tell us its exact
10 location, rather, did it have anything to do with the main road between
11 Djakovica and Decani?
12 A. Yes, Prilep was 5 kilometres from Decani, and there is a main
13 road there between Decani and Djakovica. The main road.
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mircic.
15 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
16 tender this into evidence.
17 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
18 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D00913, Your Honour.
19 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we see now D008-5356.
20 Q. It's your tab 16. Mr. Mircic, this is a record on receipt of a
21 criminal report which was filed with the Djakovica SUP but also with the
22 Decani OUP. We see here that an injured party, Ljubisa Radunovic,
23 submitted a criminal report about the fact that Milos Radunovic and
24 Milica Radunovic were abducted. Are you familiar with this document, and
25 were there such events in the territory of your OUP?
1 A. Yes, I'm familiar with this document. As I have said just a
2 minute ago, in the village of Glodjane
3 KLA prison under the command of Ramush Haradinaj. And as I have said to
4 you, there were Serbs that had been taken into custody and kept in that
5 prison by them. So the possibility is that these persons were also kept
6 in that prison in Glodjane. This criminal report was filed by the son of
7 the Radunovic family.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
10 tender this document into evidence.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
12 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D00914, Your Honours.
13 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see D008-5359.
14 Q. Your tab 17, Mr. Mircic. Again, this is a record on receipt of a
15 criminal report filed with the Djakovica SUP but also forwarded to the
16 Decani OUP. In this case, it involves an abduction by terrorist
17 Albanians of Milan
18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: By Albanian
19 terrorists, abduction of Veko and Milovan Vlahovic.
20 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Are you familiar with this situation?
22 A. Yes, I know of this case and I know of this document, and as I've
23 said earlier to you, all our intelligence on the fact that Serbs went
24 missing in Decani municipality indicated that those who went missing were
25 kept in this prison which was run by Ramush Haradinaj in the village of
2 Q. Thank you. Now, tell me, please, loyal citizens, those who were
3 loyal to Serbia
5 A. Yes, we received numerous pieces of information from the ground
6 that these people did encounter problems, these Albanians. That had to
7 do with financial support of terrorists. These people had to dig
8 trenches. They had to cook food, and play the role of logistic support
9 for the members of the KLA.
10 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the sake of the transcript, my
11 question had to do with loyal citizens of Albanian ethnicity, that's what
12 I was interested in, and it wasn't reflected in the transcript. Your
13 Honours, I would like to tender this document into evidence.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
15 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit D00915, Your Honour.
16 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we now see D242,
18 Q. This is your tab 18, if I'm not mistaken. Mr. Mircic, this is a
19 dispatch by the staff number 3061 of 16 September 1998 concerning the
20 missions and weaknesses in the work of the police. First of all, are you
21 familiar with this document, and if so, would you please look at the
22 first paragraph where these weaknesses are described.
23 A. Yes, I am familiar with this dispatch that came from the MUP
24 staff in Pristina. It was signed by General Sreten Lukic. Again, this
25 dispatch was read out to us at the collegium meeting of the SUP in
1 Djakovica, and this dispatch stated that measures need to be taken
2 against policemen who violate their duty in any way. They needed to act
3 appropriately and have appropriate appearance as instructed by the rules
4 of service within the Ministry of the Interior.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see P1202.
7 Q. Which is your tab 19. Mr. Mircic, this is dispatch number 1685
8 dated 18 September 1998. It was signed on behalf of the assistant
9 minister for the public security department, Mr. Vlastimir Djordjevic.
10 And my question to you is, are you familiar with this dispatch, and if
11 so, could you briefly tell us what this dispatch is about, and does it
12 have to do with regular routine, duties, and tasks within the area of
13 work of the public security department?
14 A. Yes, I'm familiar with this dispatch as well. It was read out at
15 the collegium meeting of the Djakovica SUP. In the dispatch we can see
16 what measures need to be taken and what intelligence was received from
17 the field. We can see that important vital facilities need to be
18 constantly toured and they need to be secured, both in operational terms
19 and in intelligence terms. It needed to be done by police members, and
20 it was all done within an action which had been implemented by the
21 Ministry of the Interior by way of which explosives and mines were placed
22 around the facilities which were of vital importance to the republic and
23 to the province of Kosovo
24 This dispatch also instructed that the control of traffic in the
25 territory of Kosovo
1 hazardous material needed to be stepped up.
2 Q. Just to clarify what is stated in the transcript, did they mean
3 that facilities needed to be protected against mines that could be placed
4 and explosives that could be placed?
5 A. Yes. They -- what they meant is protection of these facilities
6 against mines and explosive that could be placed by terrorists in the
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see D429, please,
10 which is your tab 20.
11 Q. Mr. Mircic, this is a dispatch of the staff dated 14 September
12 1998 to the office of the minister. In paragraph 1 it is stated that on
13 the 10th of September, 1998 in the village of Istinic
14 municipality, members of the Ministry of the Interior held talks with
15 representatives of the Siptar ethnic minority who had abandoned their
16 homes during the armed operations carried out by Siptar terrorists. Anne
17 Delforge, a representative of the International Red Cross from the
19 called on the representatives of the Siptar ethnic minority from Istinic
20 and other villages to return to their homes, Anne Delforge warned them on
21 several occasions and asked the people present not to return to their
22 homes because it was not safe, thus, causing panic, insecurity, and
23 uncertainty among the residents on whether to return or not. Is any of
24 this familiar to you?
25 A. Yes, it is. Anne Delforge on several occasions during her visits
1 in Decani municipality visited me in my office. We had an open and fair
2 relationship. I also learned through my Albanian friends who are in
3 Istinic that madam Anne Delforge was spreading propaganda among those who
4 were present in Istinic to the effect that they should not go back to
5 their homes because it wasn't safe.
6 Q. Mr. Mircic, we see Istinic and a date of 10 September 1998. Can
7 you tell us what was the situation like in Istinic village at the time?
8 Are you familiar with it, and how?
9 A. Yes. I am familiar with it. Based on our operational
10 information and given than I hail from Decani and I spent my whole life
11 with Albanians with whom I have friends, friendly relations, they trusted
12 me greatly, in particular, when we discussed matters of their security.
13 We had confirmed operational information that in Istinic village,
14 Decani municipality, there were a lot of refugees from Decani and other
15 villages and that there was a great concentration of civilians, women,
16 children, the elderly there. Our assessment was that there were between
17 15- and 20.000 people there.
18 The cause of that was fighting. Terrorists kept attacking police
19 members in the general area of the municipalities of Djakovica and Decani
20 in the village of Jablanica and so on and so forth. This was reason
21 enough for these civilians to flee so as to avoid being caught in
22 cross-fire during the clashes of the police and the KLA, and they feared
23 for their safety.
24 I tried to think of what we should do and how, given the great
25 numbers of civilians, since General Djordjevic was in Kosovo and Metohija
1 at that time touring our organisational units, trying to acquaint himself
2 with the overall situation in the field as well as the work of the
3 Ministry of the Interior and its members and whether they conducted
4 themselves properly and in a fashion prescribed by the law, I made use of
5 that opportunity to inform Mr. Djordjevic about the information we had
6 concerning this great problem which we had in the village of Istinic
7 in Decani.
8 I also proposed that we should try to tackle this issue
9 peacefully and consistently in order to ensure the safety of those
10 civilians. General Djordjevic agreed with my proposal, and I clarified
11 for him further that I had friends among those people believing -- and I
12 believed that we could negotiate a peaceful hand-over of weapons of those
13 civilians who were armed and those members of the KLA who were manning
14 the barricades around the village of Istinic
15 In that conversation with him, or rather, during that
16 conversation, the Assembly president of Decani, Milivoj Djurkovic
17 arrived. He also had information indicating that there was a great
18 number of civilians including children there. We suggested to him to
19 make use of our contact with certain persons in Istinic in order to
20 prepare foodstuffs and other supplies for the civilians as they may need
21 them. This also included medical supplies.
22 Q. I apologise for interruption, but I just wanted to clarify one
23 thing. Was this the president of the municipality or of the Assembly of
24 the Decani municipality?
25 A. The municipal president.
1 Q. Thank you. Continue, please.
2 A. In our further assessment, I suggested to General Djordjevic to
3 send a friendly contact from Istinic, Elis Bajlaj [phoen] to Decani. He
4 was a person of some standing in the community. He was supposed to go
5 there to talk to the representatives of the village and civilians who
6 were in Istinic to see whether they would agree to a voluntary hand-over
7 of weapons. Otherwise, should the clashes continue, given that there
8 were many civilians there, it could all result in a great number of
9 civilian casualties.
10 General Djordjevic agreed to my proposal, and we followed it up.
11 We received information after awhile by Elis Bajlaj that our proposal was
12 well received on a voluntary hand-over of weapons by the KLA and others
13 in the village of Istinic
14 Mucaj from the village of Gornja Lupa [phoen] was established by myself
15 personally. I agreed with them on the exact time of our entry in
16 Istinic. I enjoyed full confidence with these people and I trusted them
17 in turn too because they were people whom one could trust and who were
18 respected members of their community.
19 As far as I recall, around 4.00 p.m., that was sometime in
20 September, if I'm not mistaken, General Djordjevic and I together with
21 the municipal president of Decani as well as with Zoran Andjelkovic who
22 was president of the temporary Executive Council of Kosovo and who was
23 there following a request made by the municipal president of Decani
24 because of the growing complexity of the security situation in
25 Istinic ...
1 We set out from the OUP in Decani. I, General Djordjevic, the
2 municipal president; and Zoran Andjelkovic, president of the temporary
3 executive council of Kosovo and Metohija, in an official vehicle without
4 any escort by any members of police units. Given that the village of
5 Istinic is adjacent to Decani, the distance was perhaps as little as 3
6 kilometres to the very centre of Istinic.
7 En route to Istinic, we saw tractors loaded with significant
8 amounts of weapons, light infantry weapons as well as artillery pieces
9 such as recoilless guns, machine-guns of 12.7 millimetres, mines and
10 explosives on their way towards the OUP in Decani. They waved to us on
11 their way there, they greeted us.
12 Upon entering the village of Istinic
13 barricades had been removed so as to enable us to enter. Along the road
14 we could see a number of trenches and bunkers which had been used by KLA
15 members. When we arrived at the centre of Istinic, certain
16 representatives of the village, whom I mentioned and others, welcomed us
17 warmly. They greeted us in a truly friendly manner.
18 Q. I apologise for interrupting you. Did you enjoy any police
19 escort at that moment?
20 A. At that moment we had no police escort. We had no need for one
21 given that there was mutual trust. We believed that we should not bring
22 along any policemen so as not to irritate the people there.
23 Q. Thank you. We have to rewind a bit to the beginning of the
24 event. When General Djordjevic came to see you in Decani, according to
25 your information, was he familiar with the situation in Istinic?
1 A. No. General Djordjevic had no information about Istinic. It was
2 my official duty to inform him of that.
3 Q. Thank you. What ensued after your entry in the village?
4 A. After we entered the village and spoke to the representatives of
5 all villages, we agreed to enter an Albanian home where we sat down and
6 discussed all the issues on the mind of those who had fled from the other
7 villages. The municipal president and Zoran Andjelkovic promised to put
8 in place certain measures in order to supply the population with food,
9 medical supplies, and other necessities. We also established a point in
10 the centre of Istinic --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Witness's microphone is off.
12 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Could you please repeat the last several sentences because the
14 microphone was off for some reason.
15 A. So as it was agreed with representatives of other villages and
16 the village of Istinic
17 friendly and a correct one, and nobody could have ever guessed that
18 anything was happening in that area. And from the very expression on the
19 faces of the refugees, you could see that they had hardly waited for the
20 situation in the village of Istinic
21 undertook certain measures to supply them with food, water, and other
22 necessary supplies, medicines, and so on. This was organised by the
23 municipal president and Zoran Andjelkovic as president of the temporary
24 Executive Council of Kosovo and Metohija.
25 Also we set a point in the centre of the village where weapons
1 could be handed over. A large amount of weapons were handed over, heavy
2 weapons and light weapons, explosive devices. Those were handed over by
3 civilians coming from various villages within the municipality of Decani
4 The intelligence indicated that members of the KLA were also among the
5 refugees, but they were wearing civilian clothes.
6 I can also add that in the village of Istinic
7 of the village, there was a mosque. I received information from my
8 Albanian friends that in that mosque there were several persons who were
9 wounded during the conflicts between terrorists and the police. So they
10 asked me, and in fact, they led me to the mosque to show these injured
11 persons to me. I entered the mosque, I saw about a dozen persons there,
12 they were all exhausted, wounded. And we immediately undertook certain
14 We invited an ambulance from the territory of the municipality of
15 Pec, and we also invited physicians of both Albanian and Serbian
16 ethnicity who came to the centre of Istinic. They took over the wounded
17 and took care of them in the hospital in Pec. So this is an example of
18 how we operated in the field and how we took care of the civilian
19 population and assisted them in any way possible at any moment. If you
20 can just imagine given the quantity of weapons there and the
21 concentration of weapons was really inconceivable. If there was a
22 provocation by terrorists or indeed an armed conflict, very very many
23 civilians would have ended up as casualties.
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mircic.
25 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now move on. I would
1 kindly ask the Exhibit D244.
2 Q. This is your tab 21. Mr. Mircic, this is a dispatch of the MUP
3 staff number 1026 dated 20th September, 1998.
4 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see the following
5 page in both versions.
6 Q. Are you familiar with this dispatch? And if you are, could you
7 please focus on item 1?
8 A. Yes, I'm familiar with this dispatch, I will not repeat how I
9 learned about it so here it was requested for a list of villages to be
10 compiled, those villages who handed over weapons, ammunition, mines and
11 explosives, and other military equipment with information on the amounts
12 broken down by type for each village separately and together. So this
13 was a dispatch of the staff signed by General Sreten Lukic who requested
14 us to collect all the information concerning the weapons that were handed
15 over, and that information had to be submitted to the staff.
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mircic. Under item 4, we can see a list of
17 villages where refugees have returned and the number of returnees. When
18 we are talking about this item, if we could briefly go back to the
19 situation in Istinic, could you please tell us whether the people who
20 were in Istinic on that day, did they go back to their villages either on
21 that day or on any of the following days?
22 A. Yes, I forgot to say that. On the same day when we were there,
23 they could hardly wait to go back, and this was also our wish to help
24 them go back. Many of them had transportation of their own, some of them
25 didn't. They used their tractors and wagons, but for that purpose Zoran
1 Andjelkovic and president of the municipality provided a bus. And it was
2 not a bus of the ministry, but it was a regular bus which was used to
3 transport the population to their villages.
4 We told them that it was safe and that they could go back and
5 continue living in their own villages. And this was indeed done, so all
6 the persons who were in Istinic and who came from the villages in the
7 territory of this municipality of Decani
8 to their respective villages without any pressure from the MUP.
9 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Mircic.
10 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see the Exhibit
12 Q. This is your tab 22, sir. Mr. Mircic, these are the minutes from
13 Djakovica SUP OUP Decani, dated 29th of September that had to do with the
14 weapons and ammunition handed over or discovered by members of MUP or
15 handed over by the Albanian population in the municipality of Decani
16 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] If I'm not mistaken, Your Honour,
17 this document, at least according to the translation that we did have
18 before, was translated in such a way that the numbers that are there in
19 the Serbian version were not all listed in the English translation, but
20 we could only see the final numbers, the totals, in English.
21 Is so if we could please have a look at the Serbian version, this
22 is page 5 in Serbian. And I believe it is on the following page in
24 Q. So, Mr. Mircic. Here we can see automatic guns of Chinese
25 production finishing with the number 725.
1 A. Yes, yes, this is correct. So these weapons mostly came from the
2 village of Istinic. And they were handed over voluntarily.
3 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Just a minute, Mr. Popovic. Ms. Kravetz.
5 MS. KRAVETZ: I may be mistaken, Your Honour, but in the English
6 version I have I don't have the complete document in the page that's
7 being displayed in the B/C/S. It at least was not included in my copy of
8 the English. I don't know if other pages are also missing in the English
10 JUDGE PARKER: Do you know about this, Mr. Popovic?
11 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I know, Your Honour, and this
12 is what we already discussed before you. When this document was
13 translated, they did not mention all the numbers of weapons that you can
14 see in the Serbian version, but in the translation, they only mentioned
15 the totals of weapons, the same totals that are mentioned in the Serbian
16 version, and this translation was in this form admitted into evidence
17 because all the totals correspond fully to the totals in the original.
18 It is just that these 725 automatic rifles are not listed fully in the
19 English translation, so not all of their numbers are listed in the
20 English translation.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
22 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see page 7, if
23 I'm not mistaken. Yes, it is page 7 in Serbian.
24 Q. Mr. Mircic, these are semi-automatic rifles of Chinese
25 production. The total number is 419.
1 A. Yes, this is correct. These are all the numbers from the rifles
2 and you can see the total.
3 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please turn to page 9 now.
4 Q. Here we can see the machine-gun and also machine-gun of calibre
5 7.62, 54 pieces. Also machine-gun Browning, 35 pieces. So does this
6 correspond to your recollection of what you saw in Istinic?
7 A. Yes. This is a well famous fact that the terrorist use these
8 types of weapons in their actions and they brought these weapons from the
9 territory of Albania
10 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please take a look at the
11 last page, this is page 11. I believe this is on the following page in
13 Q. Here we can see hand-held rocket-launchers and you can see the
14 numbers here, also mortars, seven pieces. Is this the kind of weapons
15 that people in Istinic and elsewhere in the territory of OUP Decani
16 A. Yes, they even had Ambrust anti-rocket system for air defence.
17 Q. Mr. Mircic, the weapons discovered in the village of Istinic
18 could it be seen by foreign observers?
19 A. Yes, all of these weapons that was turned over voluntarily by the
20 Albanian national minority was displayed in the facility of the OUP
21 Decani, and we allowed access to anybody who wanted to see the kinds of
22 weapons that the terrorists in the territory of the municipality of
23 Decani had. And we also did have visitors who were, in fact,
24 representatives of diplomatic world and media and who also represented
25 this in the various media.
1 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell me whether in the territory of
2 the OUP Decani, you had members of the reserve police departments?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you know anything concerning the local security?
5 A. Yes, the local security was established in my territory
6 approximately, there were about ten such security units in villages of
7 Istinic, Gornje Jaouka [phoen] and so on. And they signed work contracts
8 with presidents of municipality, and they voluntarily agreed that they
9 would receive uniforms, ID cards, and light weapons. And in those work
10 contracts, it was clearly stipulated what were their authorities and
11 their duties in the villages in which they performed those duties.
12 Q. Thank you. But first of all, what was the nationality of the
13 members of the local security?
14 A. Obviously they were of the Albanian nationality.
15 Q. Could you tell us who organised members of the local security?
16 Yes, who organised them, let's start from that?
17 A. Well, I spoke to my friends, my acquaintances, and we agreed that
18 it was a good idea to set up such local security. I explained why. I
19 explained that they could communicate better with the population there.
20 They could see what were the supplies there or that were needed, and they
21 could be mindful that the members of the KLA did not enter the village
22 and cause any conflicts with our members, which would obviously
23 jeopardise the local population.
24 And then they arranged it with local authorities in the
25 municipality of Decani, and the municipality was obliged to provide them
1 with all the necessary equipment. The equipment was indeed provided and
2 handed over to them so that they could use it.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Now that we are talking about
5 this, I will kindly ask the Exhibit D005-0011.
6 Q. This is your tab 23. Mr. Mircic, here you can see one such work
7 contract the contract signed by Mihil Abazi from the village of Oseh
8 Hilja, municipality of Djakovica
9 tell me if such work contracts or contracts of employment were signed
10 with members of the local security?
11 A. Yes, the same format of contract was also used in the
12 municipality of Decani, so we used the same form, and the procedure was
13 the same in all the municipalities in the territory of Kosovo
14 Metohija, the same one in Decani and elsewhere, and you can see here that
15 this is the contract of employment, and you can see all the authorities
16 given to members of the local security.
17 Q. So Article 1 stipulates their duties and obligations; is that
19 A. Yes. And they were in daily contact with us, in daily
20 co-operation. They also conveyed new information that they had. They
21 took care about the security of their population.
22 Q. Did they have uniforms?
23 A. Yes, they did. They had uniforms and official IDs.
24 Q. Were they armed?
25 A. Yes. They had light weapons, pistols.
1 Q. Who provided these arms to them?
2 A. The arms were handed out by the president of the municipality,
3 the same one who signed such contracts of employment.
4 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us whether members of the local
5 security were attacked by the KLA?
6 A. In this period we had one attack on the family of Madjun Mucaj in
7 the village of Gornje Luka. He was a member of the local security for
8 the village of Gornje Luka. During the night, terrorist groups sneaked
9 into the village and carried out an attack by way of firing from
10 automatic weapons onto the house and onto the gate leading into the yard
11 of Madjun Mucaj.
12 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, looking at this contract of
13 employment in Article 3 it says here that the co-ordinator of local
14 security would have an ID. Did such IDs exist?
15 A. Yes, they did.
16 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Before we move to the
17 next document, I would like to tender this one into evidence, Your
19 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
20 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D00916, Your Honour.
21 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see D008-4785.
22 Q. Which is your tab 24. Mr. Mircic, here we can see a copy of an
23 ID which reads "local security". Are you familiar with this, and is this
24 what these IDs looked in the territory of Decani OUP?
25 A. Yes. One can clearly see that such IDs were used by members of
1 the local security, and the text was in both Albanian and Serbian, not
2 just in one language.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this be
5 admitted into evidence.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
7 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D00917, Your Honour.
8 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] D005-0015, which is tab 25 in your
9 binder, Mr. Mircic. Could we see that document now, please?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's the same one.
11 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Mircic, here we can see an ID of local security, but we have
13 the second page here as well. And on the second page it says that the
14 bearer of the ID is authorised to work to secure infrastructure.
15 A. The authorities that he has, the powers that he has.
16 Q. Yes. That he can bear weapons?
17 A. Yes, these are the authorities, or rather, the powers that
18 members of local security had.
19 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honours, could
20 this be admitted into evidence as well.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
22 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D00918, Your Honour.
23 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Now D005-0001.
24 Q. Which is your tab 26. Mr. Mircic, this is a list of local
25 police, Djakovica municipality, listing the first and last names of
1 persons, the village that they were from, their citizen registration
2 number, and the weapons that was issued to them with the number. Are you
3 familiar with such lists, and did they exist in your municipality?
4 A. Yes, they certainly existed. These are the records kept by
5 Decani municipality just like all other municipalities in Kosovo.
6 Q. And these lists that you saw for Decani municipality, did they
7 have the same information about weapon, uniform, and the village that the
8 person was from?
9 A. Yes, certainly. All of the information for persons who were on
10 the local security was recorded.
11 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honours, could I
12 tender this into evidence as well.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
14 THE REGISTRAR: It would be Exhibit D00919, Your Honour.
15 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have concluded with
16 a topic, and I would move to another one but seeing that it's time for
17 the break, perhaps it would be better to have our first break now.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Yes, we'll have the first break. We
19 will resume at 11.00. A Court Officer will assist you during the break.
20 [The witness stands down]
21 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.
23 [The witness takes the stand]
24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Popovic.
25 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Could we now see D007-0208.
2 Q. That is your tab 27. Mr. Mircic, this is a criminal report dated
3 28 September 1998
4 the injured persons who are listed in this criminal report were the
5 victims in this event whose perpetrators are not known.
6 The criminal report on page 3 states that their bodies were found
7 after they were beaten and tortured in a location where the Locanska
8 Bistrica canal links up with Radonjicko lake. That this is where their
9 bodies were found. So my question so to you is, do you you know about
10 this event described in this criminal report, and if so, can you tell us
11 what is this about? So for the sake of the transcript, I said the
12 Radonjicko lake.
13 A. Yes, I know about this criminal report, and I know about the
14 event in that area near Radonjicko lake and the canal which passes
15 through the entire territory of Decani
16 river into Radonjicko lake, and it is located in the territory between
17 Djakovica and Decani. We spoke earlier about the village of Glodjane
18 where there was a prison where Serbs were held and that that prison was
19 run by Ramush Haradinaj. Their bodies were found there in that canal at
20 the place where the canal flows into the lake. This is where the bodies
21 of the victims were found, the victims were of Serb ethnicity, and they
22 had been tortured and killed, shot dead by KLA members. Their bodily
23 remains were found there.
24 Q. Mr. Mircic, upon examining of this criminal report, we can see
25 that there are some Albanians mentioned there too, the first five are
1 Serbs, but then several names afterwards, Hota Isufi and so on are
2 Albanians. Are they indeed Albanians?
3 A. Yes, Albanians but of Catholic faith. They were persons from
4 Djakovica municipality who were members of some local security. There
5 were Roma there as well, persons of Roma ethnicity who were taken to that
6 prison and tortured and eventually killed by the KLA.
7 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honours, I tender
8 this into evidence.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] By your leave, I also have some
10 information about witnesses who have survived, people who had been taken
11 to be shot by the KLA and survived, shot by Ramush Haradinaj.
12 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Continue.
14 A. Well, we received information after the departure of the -- of
15 KFOR that some Albanians had been shot by the KLA, and those were the
16 Albanians who had been in contact with the state security service and
17 public security service who were loyal citizens. Sinan Musaj [phoen] and
18 Muriqi [phoen] who escaped from the execution site, we received
19 information from him that was in Dasinovci village near Decani.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we have this
22 admitted into evidence, please.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
24 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit D00920, Your Honour.
25 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. D008-0584, please.
1 Q. This is your tab 28. Mr. Mircic, this is the analysis of the
2 work of Djakovica SUP OUP Decani for the period August to September 1998.
3 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we see page 3 in both
4 versions, please.
5 Q. The heading is "Crime" and then in paragraph 2 it says that all
6 crimes that were committed in August were committed by unidentified
7 perpetrators under Article 125, entitled "Terrorism." And that a result
8 of those events a number of policemen were killed. Then they go on to
9 say that on the 2nd of August, 1998, a terrorist attack was carried out
10 against MUP members in the village of Prilep
11 were killed and a number of them sustained serious or slight injuries.
12 Then on the 9th of August, 1998, an attack was carried out against MUP
13 members in the village of Prilep
14 were killed and a number of them injured gravely or slightly.
15 So, Mr. Mircic, we saw that in two attacks in the village of
16 Prilep six MUP members were killed in August only, August of 1998. So
17 what can you tell us about the events in the village of Prilep
18 period of time?
19 A. I mentioned earlier that there were attacks in the area of the
20 village of Prilep
21 stronghold there and that on that road, the main road between Decani and
22 Djakovica, terrorists repeatedly attacked policemen, police check-points
23 and so on especially in the village of Prilep
24 earlier. That area was of great strategic importance for the KLA members
25 because that area enabled them to bring in weapons from Albania and take
1 them to the mountain area and to the village of Junik
2 worked so hard on maintaining that corridor.
3 And that village always had very strong presence of their forces
4 because it was in the vicinity of Glodjane. This is why there was
5 serious combat there on many occasions in which there were many victims
6 on the MUP side, among MUP members. They used heavy mortars, hand-held
7 rocket-launchers, heavy machine-guns, recoilless guns. Terrorists also
8 used explosive devices, they mined certain facilities, bridges on the
9 river which passes through Prilep. The river is called Locanska
10 Bistrica, so their stronghold in Prilep was linked to Rznic and Rastavica
11 villages. This is why they had a very strong presence of their forces
12 there. As I said, they had great interests in the area.
13 In these operations a number of facilities were damaged, that is
14 to say houses in the village of Prilep
15 houses, so the area where combat took place was right next to the main
16 road, Decani Djakovica, perhaps 10 metres on either side of the road.
17 Q. Thank you. When you say that there were many damaged houses,
18 where were they located?
19 A. As I've said already, close to the main road, 5 to 10 metres on
20 either side of it. You know what Albanian villages look like, it's one
21 house to the next with tall -- with high walls around the plots, concrete
22 walls, so sometimes they resemble bunkers.
23 Q. Can you tell us what the situation was like with the other houses
24 in the village, which were not close to the road?
25 A. Such houses did not sustain any damage. As I said, Prilep is a
1 rather large village adjacent to Rznic and towards Rastavica so it's not
2 a village of 10 or 15 houses but of 150.
3 Q. In that period when the combat casualties occurred, were there
4 any civilians in Prilep?
5 A. No, there were no civilians left. They had left the village
6 further in the territory of Decani
7 Istinic which we mentioned. There were no civilian casualties in this
8 village for that reason.
9 Q. Thank you. Let's go to the next page in both languages. There
10 is a subtitle there: Structure of Violations of Public Order and Law.
11 We see that in September there was one violation. Can you offer a brief
12 comment of what we can see?
13 A. These are standard items in such reports when reporting on the
14 situation in the field. We can see here that no Albanian reported any
15 crimes in this period. The brawl mentioned or the fight mentioned
16 occurred among the Serbs who were in Decani, so it was not caused by any
17 ethnic reasons. In Decani itself, there were many Albanians, but they
18 did not leave or flee. They enjoyed protection and left their houses in
19 a usual fashion.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation]Let's go to the next page in the
22 Serbian, and let us stay on this page in the English version.
23 Q. It has to do with weapons and ammunition. We have discussed this
24 in detail when we have reviewed the lists. Is this what we were
25 discussing about the village of Istinic
1 A. No, this is different information about smaller quantities of
2 weapons handed over by the villagers from other villages in Decani.
3 Q. Can we see any mention made of 942 rifles?
4 A. No, no, I think it says something different.
5 Q. Go to the next page in the Serbian. This is what I'm asking you
7 A. Yes, yes, I can see. This is all from Istinic. This is part of
8 the regular report for that period.
9 Q. Thank you. Let's go to the last paragraph, Disciplinary
10 Liability. We see that there was one report for breach of discipline in
11 September. What was it about?
12 A. Yes, this was an officer from the OUP, assistant commander
13 Mr. Jukic who committed a grave breach of discipline as well as the crime
14 of theft. We found in his possession a number of vehicles and tractors
15 in his courtyard. He was suspended from work, and a criminal report was
16 filed against him as well as disciplinary procedure initiated against
17 him. He was suspended from work immediately.
18 Q. Did you treat all those of whom you learned had committed a crime
19 in this same fashion? Please wait before answering so that the
20 interpreters could catch up.
21 A. Very well. We always followed up in such cases when the conduct
22 of MUP members was concerned. Whenever we learned that they had
23 committed a crime or a misdemeanour, adequate measures were taken in
24 keeping with the Law on the Interior. I just wanted to add something
25 while we are discussing the issue of disciplinary liability.
1 In 1998 we took measures in a case involving four persons who
2 were murdered. Sloba Jovanovic, a Serb from Decani municipality, from
3 Decani itself, committed the murder of four persons, that is to say, of
4 two families who were in an apartment building in Decani. These were
5 elderly people. I know that one family name was Barjaktari, and I can't
6 recall the other last name. I don't want to speculate.
7 He did this in an illegal way. We received certain information.
8 We carried out a full on-site investigation and other investigative
9 measures ascertaining that this was a very serious crime. Through
10 operational work and by application of other measures, we discovered the
11 perpetrator. We brought him in and handed him over to the competent
12 investigating judge of the district prison in Pec. Detention was
13 pronounced and in further proceedings he was sentenced to 15 years of
15 In 1999 the proceedings were conducted in Leskovac outside
16 Kosovo. The whole case was heard there, and he received 15 years in
17 prison. Our state and our service never tried to cover up such instances
18 or to show them as being something completely different to what they
19 actually were.
20 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I seek to tender this
22 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
23 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D00921, Your Honour.
24 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Mircic, did you know that in October 1998 there was an
1 agreement signed between Mr. Holbrooke and Milosevic by which verifiers
2 were to be introduced into the territory of Kosovo
3 A. Yes, I am familiar with that. As I said, I was aware of that
5 Q. Did you have any contact with the verifiers?
6 A. Yes. As far as I recall, we received instructions by way of a
8 Q. We'll see that. But before that, I wanted you to tell me
9 something about the following: What kind of relationship did you have
10 with the verifiers, and what was the relationship like between the
11 verifiers and the KLA?
12 A. We had a fair and good co-operation with all verifiers who came
13 to see me. They were welcome, and we always had good discussions. I
14 believe our co-operation in the field was quite good. As for the
15 relationship of members of the monitoring mission and the KLA, we had
16 information which indicated that the verifiers were biased in favour of
17 the KLA terrorist groups. Operational information confirmed our belief
18 because it was confirmed that they provided the KLA with information
19 about our forces and positions, et cetera. In a way, they provided
20 logistical support to them.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see P1041.
23 Q. It is your number 29. This is a dispatch of the ministry staff
24 in Pristina. Under A we see this:
25 "In accordance with item 1/8 of the agreement the mission has the
1 status of a diplomatic body. In connection with this, mission members
2 should be treated in the manner prescribed."
3 Are you familiar with this dispatch?
4 A. Yes, I am. This was an instructional dispatch on how to treat
5 OSCE mission members advising us of their diplomatic status and the
6 necessity to treat them fairly and provide them with the conditions
7 necessary for their work. We followed this through.
8 Q. Have a look at the next page under B. We have reporting and
10 A. Yes, this mentions urgent and daily reports submitted according
11 to previously ordered measures. This has to do with the dispatches we
12 saw which preceded this one with the information about what those
13 measures were. We had daily information on the KLA. There were
14 provocations and fire being opened at MUP members. Each terrorist attack
15 was referred to as well as the location and time. This was kept in the
16 duty officer's log-book in the SUP of Djakovica. And in Djakovica, they
17 compiled and collated all information received from the field sending it
18 on to the staff and minister. This was the line of reporting.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we next see Exhibit
22 Q. Just for the sake of transcript, can you tell me how did this
23 line operate that you talked about, as it's slightly different in the
24 transcript than you told us.
25 A. I will tell you. All police members who were at certain
1 locations on the ground and who were attacked by the KLA, whether these
2 were provocations or attacks, would report the duty service of the OUP
3 Decani about the area where that happened. The head of shift of the duty
4 service of the Decani OUP was obliged to submit all the information to
5 the head of the shift of the OUP Djakovica, and the head of shift of the
6 Djakovica SUP would directly inform the staff and the staff would inform
7 the minister.
8 Q. Thank you. Now we can see the Exhibit D008-0478. It is your tab
9 30. It's a dispatch from the Djakovica SUP sent to the staff. Could we
10 please see the next page in the version --
11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Popovic, you've given two different numbers at
12 lines 2 and 14. 0478 or 7408, which would you like?
13 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, the first one I said,
14 D008-0478, and that is the document which we can see on the screens.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
16 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Mircic, under your tab 30 you can see in item 2 that it's a
18 dispatch of the 27th of March, 1999, sent to the MUP staff in Pristina.
19 Item 2 mentions terrorist acts for the 27th of March in Ljumbarda
20 village, Decani municipality, in the period of 11.00 and then 1545 hours.
21 So this is already a moment when the NATO bombing campaign over the
22 territory of Serbia
23 security situation on the ground in that period?
24 A. Yes. That was a regular report in the case of NATO aggression
25 which started on the 24th of March, and in accordance with the
1 instruction dispatch, we reported about events, the damage inflicted,
2 about those who were injured, and all the other information that was of
3 security interest, including terrorist attacks, provocations, everything
4 that was interesting from the point of view of the security service.
5 That included damaged facilities and persons who had been killed.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I tender this
8 document into evidence.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
10 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D00922, Your Honour.
11 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see D143.
12 Q. It is your tab 31. Mr. Mircic, this is a dispatch from the staff
13 of the ministry in Pristina dated the 1st of April, 1999. And my
14 question for you is, first of all, whether you are familiar with this
16 A. Yes, just like with the other documents.
17 Q. Thank you. We can see that it says here:
18 "In light of the new situation caused by the NATO bombardment and
19 in order to keep the Ministry of the Interior effectively and timely
20 informed, it is necessary that you submit ..." and then under certain
21 items some things are enumerated. Can you please give us a short comment
22 on what is enumerated here.
23 A. Yes, that was like the usual information. This would be sent to
24 the secretariat and all the measures mentioned in these items would be
25 registered, would be then sent to everyone. It was the duty service of
1 the SUP Djakovica, then they would send it to the staff, and the staff
2 would send it to the minister. That was the usual reporting line.
3 Q. Thank you, but please focus on page 2 of this document now, so
4 could we please see page 2 in both versions. And under item 4 it says,
5 Albanians and persons of other nationalities who have fled the autonomous
6 province of Kosovo and Metohija, and certain things are ordered there.
7 Before you tell me anything about that, my first question for you is,
8 were you born in the territory of Kosovo
9 A. Yes, I was, as I said at the beginning. In Decani municipality,
10 I spent my whole life there and my whole career in the Decani
11 municipality with Albanians. I had many friends, colleagues, people with
12 whom I engaged in sports, socialised, and so on and so forth. Maybe I
13 forgot to say that I also worked in the municipal court in Decani for ten
14 years. That was before I began working for the -- for the Serbian MUP.
15 I had many friends among ethnic Albanians. I visited their homes, I
16 attended their wedding and mournings and whatever the occasion was, I was
17 always there together with them in restaurants in the streets, we always
18 had contact, we always worked well together, and no one ever paid any
19 attention to whether you were an ethnic Albanian or an ethnic Serb.
20 Q. Thank you. Please tell me as for the period that we are
21 discussing now, that is the year 1999, did ethnic Albanians but also
22 Serbs and Montenegrins leave the territory of Decani
23 A. Yes, that's a well known fact that both the Serbs and
24 Montenegrins and ethnic Albanians would leave the territory of Decani
25 the municipality of Decani
1 worried about the fate of their families. Serbs mostly left in the
2 direction of Serbia
3 the directions of Montenegro
4 for their lives, and they were afraid for their families because the war
5 operations were going on between the KLA and the MUP, and they did not
6 want to find themselves between these forces and under fire.
7 Q. Thank you. Tell us, did you see refugees from other areas in
8 Kosovo and Metohija who were possibly passing through the territory of
10 A. Yes. We can say that from Pec through Istok and Klina these
11 areas are connected by a road leading to Djakovica, and I was in a
12 position to see long convoys of people, Albanians. I talked about them,
13 what were the reasons why they were leaving, what was the problem. I
14 tried to persuade them to stay in a nice and cultured manner, but they
15 would always tell me, well, now, the NATO bombing is underway, there are
16 also terrorist KLA groups who are in conflict with the police and army
17 members and we do not feel safe. That was their response, so we could
18 not violently stop anyone or prevent anyone from exercising their rights
19 to do what they wanted to do at the moment.
20 Q. Tell me, can you speak Albanian?
21 A. Yes, I can speak it, I can write, I can read, I can translate.
22 Q. So when you talk to these ethnic Albanian refugees, what did they
23 tell you? What were the reasons for which they were leaving the
25 A. They even mentioned as reasons that the KLA was exercising
1 pressure against them in order to create convoys and to produce some kind
2 of humanitarian catastrophe, humanitarian disaster. They were also
3 distributing leaflets, and they tried to spread panic among the
4 population by using misinformation. They claimed that the Serbian forces
5 were carrying out aggression against civilians in order to place that in
6 the international media.
7 Q. Mr. Mircic, do you know what was the per cent of Serbs and
8 Montenegrins who left Decani during March, April, and May of 1999?
9 A. I can tell you that as the number of Serbs and Montenegrins at
10 the time, as I said earlier, was around 700 individuals, including women,
11 children, the elderly, and the younger people, I can tell you that the
12 entire population left the area except for the able-bodied men who were
13 engaged with the army or with the MUP. Of course the monks also stayed
14 there, they did not leave the Visoki Deci monastery.
15 Q. Mr. Mircic, do you know how many Serbs are living in Decani
17 A. There is not a single Serb living in Decani today except for the
18 monks, let me repeat that once again. These are the brethren of the
19 monastery Visoki Deci. There are about 30 of them. They welcome
20 visitors and receive them and for the time being they are being protected
21 by KFOR. These are the Italian units of KFOR.
22 Q. Please tell me, did you have any information that some inhumane
23 measures were used in your territory?
24 A. Yes, depleted uranium was used during the NATO bombing campaign.
25 These were bombs that created huge craters and were very destructive.
1 They contained depleted uranium.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see Exhibit D698.
4 Q. It is your tab 32.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Mr. Mircic, this is a document that represents the contents of a
7 leaflet. Are you aware that leaflets of this kind were to be found in
8 the territory of Kosovo
9 anything about that?
10 A. Yes. I am aware of that. Leaflets of this kind were thrown
11 around in all areas of Kosovo and Metohija including the Decani
12 municipality among the Albanian population. The KLA was doing that. The
13 terrorist groups of the KLA or UCK in Albanian. I see here before me
14 this pamphlet which I have seen earlier. We can even read it in Albanian
15 or I can translate it. It calls on -- we call on you to evacuate
16 temporarily from the territory of the Republic of Kosovo
17 already calling it at the time, which is dangerous at the moment. And
18 the reason are the occupying Serbian forces.
19 It then goes on to say that their army, the KLA that is to say,
20 is not able to protect them because it does not have sufficient forces.
21 Therefore, they instruct them to begin moving in the direction of Albania
22 and Macedonia
23 spread this kind of propaganda among the people. The KLA would send them
24 out and the leaflet says we have NATO support and we shall win
25 eventually. So that they would not be responsible in front of their
1 people, they are telling them to keep moving out of the territory of
2 Kosovo and Metohija so that they would protect their own lives, their own
3 people, that is to say.
4 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we please see the
5 document D008-0554.
6 Q. Which is your tab 33. This is a dispatch from the Djakovica SUP
7 sent to the MUP staff in Pristina on the 29th of May, 1999. Under item
8 2, a terrorist attack carried out on the 28th of May, 1999, is recorded
9 in Ljumbarda village, Decani municipality. Certain members of the police
10 were attacked and wounded. Does that correspond with your knowledge of
11 about the security situation in the territory of the OUP in that period?
12 A. Yes, that happened on a daily basis, there's nothing new here.
13 This was a regular incident that never stopped, and we can see that it
14 was a DD dispatch, which means that it was a report that was urgent, and
15 this was the usual procedure, as I said earlier when I talked about
17 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, I tender this document
18 in to evidence, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
20 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D00923, Your Honour.
21 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Mircic, do you know General Djordjevic?
23 A. What kind of a chief would I be if I did not know General
24 Djordjevic, who was my immediate superior? I know him officially, not as
25 a private person.
1 Q. Thank you. When was the last time you saw General Djordjevic in
2 the area of Kosovo and Metohija?
3 A. In this period, I mean 1998, that was when we really did a big
4 operation in the area of Istinic village. That was really exemplary, an
5 exemplary operation.
6 Q. Did you ever see General Djordjevic in the territory of Kosovo
7 and Metohija in the year 1999?
8 A. No. I never saw him in the territory of Kosovo
10 Q. Mr. Mircic, did you ever in 1998 or 1999 see or hear that there
11 was any kind of plan or agreement within the Ministry of the Interior by
12 which the Albanian population in Kosovo and Metohija would be expelled
13 from the territory of Kosovo
14 A. I never saw any such plan, nor did I ever hear about that, nor do
15 I believe that anything like that existed. That was never the goal of
16 the security forces to do something like that with the members of the
17 ethnic minority, Albanian ethnic minority.
18 Q. Did you ever during 1998 or 1999 see or hear that there was any
19 kind of plan or agreement within the Ministry of the Interior by which
20 the Albanian population would be expelled from Kosovo and therefore the
21 ethnic composition of the Albanian population in Kosovo would be changed?
22 A. No, never.
23 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. This was the last
24 question in my examination-in-chief.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Popovic.
1 Ms. Kravetz.
2 MS. KRAVETZ: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Cross-examination by Ms. Kravetz:
4 Q. Good morning, Mr. Mircic.
5 A. Good morning, respected madam prosecutor.
6 Q. I want to go back to your evidence from yesterday. Yesterday and
7 also today you've spoken about your role as a chief of the Decani OUP and
8 you told us that you held that position both in 1998 and 1999 and that
9 your direct superior was the SUP chief from Djakovica; is that correct?
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. And you've indicated that the SUP chief was called Kovacevic?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. Do you recall his full name, Mr. Kovacevic's full name? Only if
14 you remember.
15 A. Perhaps I'll be able to recall it later but not at this moment.
16 I just remember his last name, Kovacevic. It's been quite awhile and
17 perhaps I forgot.
18 Q. That's fine. It doesn't matter. Was Mr. Kovacevic chief of the
19 Djakovica SUP both in 1998 and 1999?
20 A. As far as I recall, he was appointed in mid-1998 and, yes, he was
21 in the same position throughout 1999.
22 Q. You told us yesterday also that your OUP had about 80 P status
23 personnel. I take it that by 80 P status personnel, you mean
24 professional status personnel?
25 A. No, that is under the staffing scheme of the MUP of Serbia. We
1 had 11 --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 111.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As per scheme, there should have
4 been 180, but there were also OSL personnel, meaning authorised official.
5 So P personnel were uniformed policemen carrying out their regular tasks
6 in keeping with the Law on the Interior and the rules of service.
7 MS. KRAVETZ:
8 Q. And if I understood your evidence correctly, in 1999 you had
9 about 80 of them? 80 P status personnel in your OUP in Decani?
10 A. Correct. In -- with two substations in Junik and Rznic. These
11 were two substations which formed part of the Decani unit.
12 Q. Just to correct the transcript, you mentioned there were two
13 substation, one in Junik and the other one is in which locality, could
14 you repeat it?
15 A. The village of Rznic
16 Q. Thank you. And you also said yesterday that you had some
17 reservist in your OUP, and you said given the number of population in the
18 municipality of Decani, you had very few of them but there was some
19 reservists in your OUP; is that correct?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. Now, when you say given the number of population in the
22 municipality of Decani, do you mean given the number of Serb population
23 in the municipality?
24 A. No, I had in mind the overall population.
25 Q. So did the number of reservists that were incorporated in police
1 stations like yours depend on the number or the size of the population in
2 a certain municipality?
3 A. Yes. Since the army had its reservists.
4 Q. And these reservists that were incorporated in your OUP, did they
5 have some sort of police or military training that they had undergone
6 before being incorporated in your OUP?
7 A. For one to be a member of the reserve force, one must have had
8 served their military term. That's one of the preconditions. No
9 training, however, was undertaken when engaged in certain conditions.
10 They only performed their regular duties of the police alongside
11 active-duty members. Reservists never acted independently. They were
12 there merely as a reinforcement to bring up staffing levels given that we
13 had too few members of the regular force.
14 Q. So if I understand your evidence correctly, reservists carried
15 out the same functions as regular policemen only that they did not act
16 independently, they were always accompanied by a regular police officer
17 in carrying out their duties?
18 A. Exactly so.
19 Q. Were they issued the same type of uniforms and weapons and
20 equipment that regular police officers had?
21 A. Yes, they were.
22 Q. And would these -- you've said that they were brought in to the
23 police force to reinforce or bring up staffing levels. I take it that
24 this is something that did not only happen in your OUP but also in other
25 police stations in other municipalities? This wasn't something specific
1 to your OUP that you had reservists in your police force; correct?
2 A. That is correct. This was not something specific to us alone.
3 The same thing applied across all the organisational units of the
4 Ministry of the Interior.
5 Q. You said that these persons would have been persons that had
6 received some sort of military training previously. Would they generally
7 be a bit older in age than regular police officers or active-duty police
8 officers from your OUP?
9 A. We always tried to have younger reservists. We also wanted to
10 pick them out of a number of those who had served their military sentence
11 so that they had undergone some sort of military training or military
12 police training.
13 Q. And so these would be persons who were picked out from the local
14 community? They would be original to the Decani municipality, these
15 reservists who would be called up to reinforce your police force?
16 A. Yes. It wasn't only Serbs who were reservists, there were also
17 Albanians, members of the reserve force.
18 Q. Yes, my question was whether they would be from the municipality?
19 A. Yes. Solely from the municipality because the regulations said
20 that you couldn't engage persons from other municipalities.
21 Q. You've also mentioned during the course of your evidence several
22 times that you were a member of the collegium of the SUP in Djakovica;
24 A. I didn't quite understand your question, a member of the
25 collegium you said?
1 Q. Let me rephrase the question.
2 A. Did you mean -- did you mean that I was a member of the
3 collegium? Whether I was one?
4 Q. Yes, during the course of your examination by my colleague you
5 were shown a series of documents sent by different officials from the
6 MUP, and you indicated several times that you were shown these documents
7 or you became acquainted with these documents during meetings of the
8 collegium of the Djakovica SUP, so what I was asking was just for you to
9 confirm whether that was the case, that you were a member of the
10 collegium of the Djakovica SUP?
11 A. I will explain this for you so that you become more familiar with
12 this issue. Djakovica SUP had Decani OUP as an organisational unit. And
13 I, as chief of the OUP by virtue of my position, belonged to the
14 collegium of the Djakovica SUP. So whenever the chief of the secretariat
15 found it necessary to convene a collegium meeting, then it would be
16 convened, and we would come to that meeting where he informed us of any
17 documents that had arrived, any regular reports on the work of the
18 police. He would inform us of the security situation in our territory
19 and so on. So those were the collegium meetings. I wasn't the only one
20 who would attend, but chiefs of various organisational units would come,
21 and it was part of their job description.
22 Q. Okay. So if I understand correctly, these collegium meetings
23 were attending not only by you but also by the Djakovica SUP chief and
24 the heads of various organisational units that were within the territory
25 of the Djakovica SUP?
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. And during the course of these meetings you've told us the SUP
3 chief would inform you of any reports or dispatches that would arrive,
4 and I suppose that concerned your scope of work?
5 A. Yes, that's correct. That concerned my work and the work of the
6 entire secretariat.
7 Q. During these meetings, would you also update the SUP chief about
8 events in the area of your OUP? Would you also update him on what was
9 going on in the Decani municipality?
10 A. As I have said earlier, the information was passed via duty
11 service, so the duty service of the Decani OUP would inform the head of
12 the shift in the Djakovica SUP on any events and the head of the SUP
13 shift would inform in turn everybody else, chief of the SUP, heads of
14 police departments about anything that may have happened in the
16 So it wasn't me who directly informed somebody. No, it was
17 persons who were heads of shifts whose job description it was to pass the
18 information on.
19 Q. Okay. Thank you for that. That's much clearer. And with what
20 frequency were these collegium meetings held?
21 A. The meetings were held whenever the chief found it necessary.
22 The typical procedure was to have the collegium meetings every day and on
23 some days the meetings could not be held due to the security situation,
24 and there were also occasions when I couldn't attend collegium meetings
25 due to terrorist activity that the terrorist groups conducted on the main
1 road between Djakovica and the other town. They attacked all civilians,
2 all traffic passing on the road. They had issued an order to their
3 population not to use that road, not to move on that road, so Albanians
4 never used that road. Whenever they saw somebody on that road, they knew
5 that that person was a Serb or of other non-Albanian ethnicity, and such
6 persons were typically injured or killed when using that road.
7 Q. And on those occasions when you did not attend these daily
8 collegium minutes [sic], how would you become acquainted or familiarise
9 yourself with the issues that had been discussed there?
10 A. I would receive a dispatch, and the chief of the secretariat
11 would convey that to me.
12 Q. Okay. So if a dispatch was discussed at these collegium meeting
13 and you had not attended, you would receive a copy of that, am I
14 understanding correctly, from the SUP chief?
15 A. Yes. If communication lines were operational, then I would
16 receive a dispatch, yes. And if not, they would just call me on the
17 phone and brief me on the phone. Sometimes we communicated via courier
19 Q. Okay. Thank you for that. You were shown several dispatches
20 that you mentioned were discussed at these collegium meetings, and I want
21 to go through two of them.
22 MS. KRAVETZ: The first one is D107, if we could have that up on
23 the screen.
24 Q. So this is a dispatch that's dated 20th of October, 1998, and we
25 see it's sent by Major-General Sreten Lukic, and it's addressed to all
1 SUP chiefs, and also to PJP units, SAJ, JSO, squad commanders, and if I
2 recall your testimony correctly today you said that you had been informed
3 about the contents of this dispatch at a collegium meeting; is that
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. So although this is addressed to SUP chiefs, one of the
7 instructions is that you had to compile list of informations of members
8 who are not currently in unit for justified reasons but are entitled to
9 some reward and it refers to rewarding PJP members, SAJ and JSO members.
10 So my question is, once the SUP chief of Djakovica would communicate to
11 you these instructions by General Lukic, then you would implement them,
12 if I understand correctly? You would implement or carry out the
13 instructions that are carried out here -- indicated here?
14 A. Let me clarify tis dispatch for you. You see that this dispatch
15 says that it is sent to the chief and also to commanders of detachments
16 who were not members of SUP collegium. And here in this dispatch, they
17 are issuing tasks, commanders of detachments and PJP units were to act in
18 accordance with this dispatch. I was merely briefed on this dispatch.
19 It doesn't fall within my regular scope of work.
20 Q. You did indicate earlier today that you also kept records of PJP
21 members engaged in certain tasks, and you were asked, is this dispatch in
22 line with the register you kept, and you said, yes, of course it is?
23 A. Yes. But when it comes to this dispatch, it is the police
24 department in Djakovica, commander of the platoon, commander of the
25 company, and the commander of the platoon within the Decani OUP who were
1 the real addressees of this dispatch. They were the ones who were
2 supposed to keep records and so on.
3 Q. Thank you for that.
4 MS. KRAVETZ: If we can see another one of these dispatches.
5 This is 1202. P1202.
6 Q. This is another one of the dispatches that you were shown
7 earlier, and this one is dated 18 September 1998. And we see the
8 addressees on -- at the top, all SUP chiefs, the head of the MUP staff,
9 border police stations, et cetera. There's a series of other
10 organisational units indicated there, and in the second page which we
11 don't need to turn to right this minute says that this is signed and sent
12 by General Djordjevic. Do you recall looking at this dispatch earlier?
13 A. Just a minute, please. Let me look at it. Yes.
14 Q. And you indicated earlier today that this was -- you were
15 familiar with this dispatch because it was also read out at the collegium
16 meeting of the Djakovica SUP; do you recall saying that?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. And in this dispatch, General Djordjevic is instructing the
19 addressees to take a series of measures it says, and I'm reading
20 somewhere in this second paragraph it says, Apart from intensifying the
21 measures ordered in dispatch number 1150 of the 24th of September, 1997
22 it is necessary do the following. And there are a series of measures
23 that are indicated there. You see that?
24 A. I see only the first page.
25 Q. This is in the first --
1 A. Well, yes, these are standard measures undertaken by MUP when
2 assessing the newly created situation in any area. These are normal
3 measures that all organisational units within a secretariat should
4 undertake. Once we have information that there could be situations where
5 terrorist groups could endanger vital facilities, personal safety,
6 endanger property, and it says here facilities of vital importance, then
7 it's normal that the MUP should undertake certain measures of operational
8 and intelligence measure -- nature.
9 Q. And we see on page 1 that it refers to action plan of the Sat or
10 watch action. If we could turn to the second page of the dispatch we see
11 this is the paragraph, almost last paragraph, we see General Djordjevic
12 instructing "start implementing the measures ordered having previously
13 updated the work plans according to the Sat action." And then it says
14 "report to us about all interesting occurrences and events, and about the
15 realisation of the measures ordered according to the Sat action." Do you
16 see that it says that?
17 A. Yes, I see that. This Sat action was not a new one --
18 Q. Sir, I'm just asking you if you can see that up on the screen,
19 just so we don't get ahead of ourselves here. So we see -- you've told
20 us that at this collegium meeting that you attended the SUP chief
21 informed those present about the contents of this dispatch. And I take
22 it that following that meeting, the different members or persons
23 attending this meeting from the organisational units addressed in this
24 dispatch would have proceeded to carry out the measures that are
25 indicated in this dispatch?
1 A. Naturally, yes. Let me now tell you about Action Sat and other
2 actions such as Action Valuta, Action Pariz, Action Suma. Those were
3 typical actions undertaken by police.
4 Q. I'm just asking you a very precise question. We have very
5 limited time, and I know you have a lot of information for the Court but
6 unfortunately we can't explore it all in so much detail. So I don't want
7 to interrupt you, but we just need to move on. So you said that they
8 would implement the instructions, those attending the meetings and were
9 concerned by these measures would implement them once they were briefed
10 by the SUP chief, and this dispatch also instructs reporting on all
11 interesting occurrences and about how the measures had been carried out
12 in accordance with this Sat action. So I take it that was also something
13 that was followed and implemented, that once these different members of
14 organisational units addressed by this dispatch had carried out these
15 measures, they would report on that?
16 A. Yes, but we reported within our line of work. That is to say, to
17 the administrations within the ministry seat. We would inform that. We
18 didn't inform Mr. Djordjevic about these events because he was chief of
19 the public security department. We would inform within our line of work.
20 We would inform police administrations, and there were 11 of them, within
21 the seat of the ministry. They were organisational units of the
23 Q. And when you would inform the different police administrations
24 and organisational units about the actions you had undertaken regarding
25 action plan of the Sat action, you would refer to this dispatch, wouldn't
1 you? You would indicate, we have carried out actions that are indicated
2 as instructed in this dispatch number 1685? Isn't that how you would --
3 A. No, we would not normally refer to the dispatch. We would simply
4 mention the action. We would say action Sat, and we would send it to the
5 Secretariat of the Interior who would then forward it within separate
6 lines of work to the MUP of Serbia and to the staff.
7 Q. So you would not be, in fact, informing different police
8 administrations, organisational units, as you said. You would send this
9 information directly to the Djakovica SUP who would in turn send the
10 information up the chain of command of the MUP; is that how it happened?
11 A. Let me tell you, I was directly responsible to the chief of the
12 secretariat. OUP, as an organisational unit, belongs to the Djakovica
13 secretariat. So all of the reporting went via the secretariat and then
14 the secretariat would forward it on to the staff, to the MUP, and to
15 various administrations within their line of work.
16 Q. So was the task of the secretariat in Djakovica to report on up
17 to the MUP in Belgrade
18 implement these instructions that were given in this dispatch, if I
19 understand your evidence correctly?
20 A. Yes, but within their individual lines of work. MUP is a one
21 whole, and it has various lines of work within it and various
22 administrations dealing with various affairs, with police, with crime,
23 with forensic work and so on. And it would also be sent to the staff,
24 but not to Djordjevic directly. There was no such information channels
25 leading directly to Djordjevic because those were minor matters that we
1 did not inform Djordjevic of. We would inform our immediate superiors of
2 these matters.
3 Q. Yes, I understand what you are saying, that you would inform your
4 immediate superiors of the actions you took. What I was asking whether
5 in turn the SUP in Djakovica, and I'm speaking within the scope of work
6 of the Djakovica SUP, would in turn inform the MUP in Belgrade about the
7 measures that had been undertaken to implement this dispatch? Or would
8 you not inform the public security department which was issuing this
9 dispatch? By you I mean the SUP in Djakovica about the measures that had
10 been taken to implement the dispatch?
11 A. They would inform the staff, so the staff was the main body for
12 Kosovo and Metohija and then the staff in turn would inform the minister,
13 and if they found it necessary to send a circular letter, then they would
14 send it to various chiefs within their line of work.
15 Q. And what do you mean by circular letter, if they found it
16 necessary to send a circular letter?
17 A. Well, that kind of a letter is given to the duty service
18 directly, which exists within the DOC operations centre within the MUP.
19 And then they would compile a bulletin, bulletin within each separate
20 line of work that would inform everybody else.
21 Q. And when this bulletin was compiled, you are saying by the MUP
22 staff, wouldn't they include also the public security department which
23 had issued the dispatch in question instructing all SUP chiefs and other
24 organisational units to undertake certain measures? Wouldn't it be
25 logical to include the public security department in this -- such a
2 A. Yes, but chiefs of crime police within various administrations.
3 Q. Yes, I'm just speaking about the obligations that were given or
4 the instructions given to SUP chiefs, we are not talking about crime
5 police here. So I take it your answer is yes, that the public security
6 department that specifically Mr. Djordjevic would receive a report up
7 from the MUP staff saying that the measures -- these are the measures
8 taken pursuant to the dispatch issued in September of 1998, dispatch
9 number 1685?
10 A. Well, if they found it necessary, if they found that there were
11 indeed certain problems and that there were issues of major security
12 importance, then, yes, but since this is done by crime operatives, then
13 the chief of crime police administration or chief of police within the
14 ministry seat would make the appropriate assessment concerning it.
15 Q. Okay. Well, let's move on from this dispatch. You indicated
16 yesterday that you had members of the PJP attached to your OUP?
17 A. I indicated that yesterday and today.
18 Q. Yes. And you said yesterday that within your OUP there were
19 usually at the level of one platoon, if I understood correctly, that's
20 approximately 20 or 30 men, PJP members that were attached to your OUP?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. And these PJP members belonged to -- or were attached to the
23 Djakovica SUP, they were members of -- they belonged to the Djakovica
24 SUP, is that what you said yesterday, if I recall correctly?
25 A. Let me explain this for you. When performing their regular
1 duties and tasks, they belonged to the police station of the Decani OUP.
2 When they were engaged as members of a PJP unit, then they would belong
3 to the Djakovica SUP where a PJP company was established, so certain
4 commanders would be also engaged within the Djakovica PJP.
5 Q. And do you know how large was the Djakovica PJP company?
6 A. A company normally has up to 100 members including the command
7 staff, commanders of squads, commanders of platoons, and the company
9 Q. And if I understand correctly, this company from the Djakovica
10 SUP would operate in Decani and also in Djakovica? They would carry out
11 actions in both municipalities?
12 A. Wherever the security situation so required, they carried out
13 actions not only in Djakovica and in Decani, but in the broader area.
14 PJP would come to Belgrade
15 situation so required. But I had nothing to do with them when it comes
16 to command responsibility. Nor did I take part in drafting plans for
17 their work, plans for their activities. Nor did I know of their
19 Q. Very well, sir, we'll get to that in a minute. You said that the
20 members of the Djakovica PJP company operated in other areas, not only in
21 Decani and Djakovica. Did members of other PJP companies attached to
22 other SUPs also come -- when it was required come to the Djakovica
23 municipality and carried out actions there?
24 A. I don't know about that. I was not informed about that, when it
25 comes to those matters.
1 Q. So you know where members of your unit, your PJP unit carried out
2 actions, but you do not know whether members of other PJP companies from
3 other municipalities came to Djakovica -- Decani or whether they carried
4 out any -- participated in any actions there?
5 A. I don't even know where my people were engaged, and logically I
6 don't know where other people were engaged because they were under the
7 command of the staff, under their direct command. Command of General
9 MS. KRAVETZ: Okay. I see it's time for the break, Your Honours,
10 and I also see my learned colleague is on his feet, but I hadn't seen him
11 earlier, so I didn't stop my question.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Popovic.
13 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the question has been
14 answered, and it's time for our break, and I just had a minor observation
15 because the question of my learned friend contains something that the
16 witness had not spoken about, but in the meantime, the witness answered
17 the question so that's all I have to say. Thank you.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. We will have the second break now and
19 resume at 1.00.
20 [The witness stands down]
21 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.
23 [The witness takes the stand]
24 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Kravetz.
25 MS. KRAVETZ: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Sir, we were just talking about PJP units, and I wanted to go
2 back to that. I wanted to know if you could tell us how did the tasks
3 that the PJP members of your OUP carry out compare with those -- you have
4 no --
5 MS. KRAVETZ: I think the witness has no interpretation. Are you
6 getting interpretation now, sir?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please repeat because at
8 the outset I couldn't hear.
9 MS. KRAVETZ:
10 Q. Yes, no problem, sir. I would like to go back to the issue we
11 were discussing before the break, PJP units. And I was asking you how
12 the task that PJP members from your OUP carry out compare with the ones
13 that just regular policemen carried out. Were they different, were they
14 the same, if you could tell us that?
15 A. I think I've already explained that during my testimony. A
16 member of the PJP is a policeman who otherwise performs his regular
17 police tasks. PJP engagement only takes place in extraordinary
18 circumstances of natural disasters or other situations which demand
19 particular attention, otherwise people who are regular policemen perform
20 their usual tasks unless engaged in PJP units in such circumstances.
21 These are no special police members.
22 Q. Okay. But let me rephrase my question then. Let's talk about
23 1998, the task carried out by members of PJP units from your OUP, were
24 they the same as regular police officers or were they different when they
25 were engaged as part of a PJP unit, I mean?
1 A. Yes, they were regular policemen engaged in certain conditions to
2 take part in PJP activities.
3 Q. And what were those?
4 A. For example, disturbances of law and order in the area. Natural
5 disasters and similar situations. For example, situations in which the
6 integrity of the Republic of Serbia
7 circumstances such as those.
8 Q. And in 1998, we are speaking specifically about Kosovo, what sort
9 of activities were PJP units carrying out? Members of PJP in your
11 A. I don't know that. You would need to ask the staff about that,
12 and the commanders of companies and battalions. So first of all, you
13 would need to speak to General Lukic, commander of the staff who decided
14 upon it. I didn't busy myself with that, and it was not within my
16 Q. Sir, yesterday when you were asked about how PJP and members of
17 PJPs were assembled and deployed on the basis of whose order, this is at
18 transcript page 67, you said, I would always be informed of their
19 engagement and deployment of the members of the PJP, Decani OUP who were
20 within the composition of the Djakovica SUP. Do you remember saying
21 that? I'm referring to line 12 of -- I don't have --
22 A. That is correct, yes. Being informed was a different thing and
23 knowing what part of what unit they made, but I wasn't privy to their
24 tasks, so we have to distinguish between the two different situations.
25 MS. KRAVETZ: I see my learned colleague is on his feet.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. I can watch that, thank you. Mr. Popovic.
2 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the question that was
3 put given that it was without a reference -- well, the witness never
4 mentioned any deployments. He did mention members being sent to certain
5 tasks, but nothing of this sort was uttered by the witness. If I'm
6 mistaken I stand to be corrected, and I would kindly ask for a reference.
7 MS. KRAVETZ: And the reference is at transcript page 67 of
8 yesterday's transcript. Unfortunately the version of yesterday's
9 transcript that I have in e-court does not have updated transcript pages,
10 and this is lines 12 to 14 of page 67 that I'm referring to.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
12 MS. KRAVETZ: And the witness referred to deployment twice in
13 that passage.
14 Q. Now, sir, you also said, and this is the following page,
15 transcript page 68, that when the unit returned after completing their
16 tasks, the chief of the police substation would inform about this and you
17 would receive a copy. Do you remember saying that yesterday, sir?
18 A. Yes. Informing, it means that that part of the unit, platoon,
19 returned from the field and were supposed to go back to their regular
20 duties. This was nothing out of ordinary. If they were sent to address
21 the services of law and order, they would be dispatched to perform their
22 task and then go back to their police station in Decani where they were
23 answerable to the police station commander.
24 Q. Now, you've told us several times now that you had no knowledge
25 of the activities or the tasks, specific tasks that the PJP units of your
1 OUP were engaged with. I take it, sir, that you were aware of the fact
2 that they were engaged in actions against the KLA, that much you knew?
3 A. All those PJP units certainly took part in actions against the
4 KLA. This is no secret.
5 Q. You've told --
6 A. But I didn't know in what area they were engaged or on the basis
7 of what plan, and who sent them there. This was not a part of my work to
9 Q. Sir, you've told us today that you've always had detailed
10 information from intelligence sources about the KLA. Do you remember
11 saying that? This is at page 8 of today's transcript.
12 A. Well, yes, I can say so. I had lots of information. I could
13 spend a week here talking to you about the way the KLA was created and
14 carried out its activities. I used to work for the state security
15 service, remember, and I could go on and on about this.
16 Q. So, sir, you are saying that you had detailed information about
17 what the KLA was doing in your municipality, but you did not know what
18 members of your OUP that were attached to a PJP unit, you did not know
19 what sort of actions they were carrying out?
20 A. Well, one can suppose they had clashes with the terrorists, but
21 as to where they were sent, to what locations and following what plans,
22 this was not -- that was something up to me to know. A commander didn't
23 need to know that. They were immediately transferred under the authority
24 of the PJP, they received their new commander and units and new line of
25 subordination. They were subordinated directly to General Lukic and the
1 minister of the interior.
2 Q. Sir, just so we are clear, I'm not suggesting that you were the
3 commander of a PJP unit. I'm just trying to clarify your knowledge about
4 their activities, so I am not suggesting that you commanded them.
5 What I don't understand, sir, is how you could have so much
6 detailed information about activities of the KLA and clashes that
7 occurred but not know where the PJP members of your OUP were carrying out
8 activities. That doesn't make much sense, does it, sir?
9 A. Of course it does because my OUP members who were transferred
10 under the authority of the PJP were not supposed to inform me. They were
11 supposed to inform the staff, and they were completely under the staff's
12 authority. They were supposed to inform the staff about every event
13 which took place. The staff was the body in charge of command and
14 control of PJP members. As for the PJP, I had -- I also had contacts in
15 the KLA, so ten years later, I can tell you how they were created, who
16 recruited them, how they were trained, what finances they received and
17 everything else. I can tell you about their logistical support.
18 Anything that you might want to know. I could go on for a week
19 addressing only the creation of the KLA and their finance sources,
20 training methods, how money and weapons were transferred, I can explain
21 that in detail, including all the crimes they committed in Decani
23 Q. Sir, you did not receive any information from the Djakovica SUP
24 chief about where members of PJP units would be engaged in your
1 A. No, he didn't need to inform me about that.
2 Q. So you are saying you knew what the KLA was doing but you knew
3 nothing else that was going on in your municipality, where there were
4 confrontations with the police, where the police was carrying out
5 activities? You did not know that?
6 A. Well, this again brings us back to certain questions. You are
7 trying to tell me to tell you something which was not part of my work.
8 All plans and engagement of forces ... I don't know where my men were,
9 whether in this or that municipality, but this was not how it worked in
10 practice and the minister did not get into that. He only issued
11 instructions on the establishment and functioning as well as command
12 within the PJP. I've already tried to address that, and as for the KLA,
13 I can go on for a week and corroborate that with all evidence you might
14 need, but this a is different procedure.
15 Q. The drawing up of plans for the prevention of terrorism, wasn't
16 that within the scope or the purview of the work of SUPs?
17 A. Plans were sent directly to the staff. To repeat what I said
18 already, two sectors, the public security and state security sector
19 established the staff by decision of the minister in Pristina. It had
20 clear command structure, decision-making structure, they knew exactly who
21 drew up plans and issued orders, and you have probably been able to see
22 that yourself in the documents you have.
23 Q. When you say plans were sent directly to the staff, by whom were
24 they sent to the staff?
25 A. I didn't say that plans were sent directly to the staff but were
1 created by the staff, in the staff.
2 Q. And in order to create plans for the actions that were going to
3 be carried out within the different municipalities, didn't the staff
4 require the input of the SUPs, specifically of SUP chiefs?
5 A. It didn't necessarily have to be like that. I've already told
6 you that David Gajic from the security service was deputy head of the
7 staff, and they engaged in operative work. Based on such information and
8 based on their assessments, they drew up plans which I didn't see. I'm
9 not familiar with those. Therefore, I can't tell you of anything that I
10 wasn't privy to.
11 Q. So you are saying that the plans that were drawn up by the MUP
12 staff were based on information that only came from the security service?
13 Wasn't there also an input from the SUPs?
14 A. Well, there probably were other sources from other services.
15 It's not only the state security. You probably know that there was
16 public security service and others, but most of it was in terms of
17 collecting data by intelligence work, and this fell within the scope of
18 the services I referred to. It is the state security sector who engaged
19 in that primarily.
20 Q. So you are not aware of SUPs being requested or required to draw
21 up any plans for combatting terrorism in the respective municipalities by
22 the MUP staff? You are not aware of that happening?
23 A. I don't know that. No one asked me to do anything of the sort
24 within my OUP.
25 Q. Well, let me show you a document, sir.
1 MS. KRAVETZ: If we could have P689 up on the screen.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Go ahead.
3 MS. KRAVETZ:
4 Q. And these, sir, are the minutes of a meeting at the MUP staff in
5 Pristina held on the 2nd of December, 1998.
6 MS. KRAVETZ: If we could go to the next page, page 3, I believe,
7 on both English and B/C/S.
8 Q. So we see there the list of those present, and it includes all
9 chiefs of SUPs and the commanders of the detachments, and we see General
10 Lukic there along with other officers; do you see that, sir?
11 A. Yes, I do. There were others meaning members of PJP detachments,
12 commanders of those. This is what you omitted.
13 Q. That's what I just said. Chiefs of SUPs, and just to correct the
14 transcript at line 10, it's SUP and commanders of detachments.
15 MS. KRAVETZ: Now, if we could go to page 4, and it's the middle
16 of the page in the B/C/S and in the English it's the bottom of page 4.
17 Q. So we see here on this page, sir, that the different SUP chiefs
18 are reporting on their activities. If we could scroll down in the
19 English. And we see on your screen in the B/C/S it's somewhere toward
20 the lower half of the page, we see that the Djakovica SUP chief who is
21 identified here as deputy chief Kovacevic is reporting about activities,
22 and he reports not only about the situation in sector -- well, he reports
23 about the situation in the sector of the Djakovica SUP and also about
24 terrorist attacks and provocations specifically in the areas of Glodjani
25 and Decani. Do you see that, sir?
1 A. Yes, I see that.
2 MS. KRAVETZ: Now, if we could go to page 5, bottom in the B/C/S
3 and page 6 in English.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I comment on this, on this
6 MS. KRAVETZ:
7 Q. In a minute I'll let you comment, sir. If we could just move on
8 to page 5 bottom in the B/C/S simply to show you, and it's page 6 in the
9 English, that at the conclusion of this report, we see Major-General
10 Sreten Lukic giving -- he speaks, and he gives a number of instructions
11 which continue on the next page. Do you see that, sir, that's at the
12 bottom of your page in the B/C/S, General Lukic speaks? Do you see that,
14 A. I don't see it.
15 Q. Right in the bottom.
16 A. It Blagoje Pesic or further up the page?
17 Q. Right below Blagoje Pesic.
18 A. Major-General Sreten Lukic, yes, I see it.
19 Q. Now, if we continue to page 7 in the B/C/S and page 8 in the
20 English, this is the continuation of General Lukic's instructions. He
21 provides -- he issues a series of tasks at the conclusion of this
22 meeting. You see that? And what I'm looking for is on the next page.
23 Page 8 in the -- yes.
24 And at the conclusion of this meeting we see that General Lukic
25 says: "By 7 December 1998
1 of terrorism, which in principle should contain:" And there are eight
2 points of the information that needs to be included in that plan. You
3 see that, sir, that --
4 A. I see it.
5 Q. General Lukic is tasking those present with the preparation of a
6 plan for the prevention of terrorism?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, I want to move on to a related document, and this is P1043.
9 And this is a meeting of the MUP staff which takes place some weeks later
10 on 21st, December, 1998. And it will come up on your screen shortly. We
11 see on the first page the list of attendees. This one includes MUP
12 minister Stojiljkovic and also General Obrad Stevanovic, General Lukic,
13 and we see at the bottom that all chiefs of SUP and also commanders of
14 PJP detachments are there. Do you see that, sir? I believe we have that
15 also on the B/C/S, on the screen.
16 A. Yes, I can see it.
17 MS. KRAVETZ: Now, if we can go to page 3 in the B/C/S and page 5
18 in the English. And it's the bottom of the page in both languages.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see it.
20 MS. KRAVETZ:
21 Q. And here we have the Djakovica SUP chief Kovacevic again
22 reporting on the activities in his SUP area, and he says:
23 "The police undertook an operation to sweep the terrain in the
24 Glodjani village sector and drove away some 50 to 60 terrorists from it
25 and killed two." Then he says: "We adopted a plan to combat terrorism,
1 and it is mostly being carried out."
2 A. Yes, do you want me to comment?
3 Q. This is Glodjani village, where is that located?
4 A. It is 10 kilometres from Decani itself in the territory of that
5 municipality. As for what Mr. Kovacevic said, he was in the wider
6 composition, the wider circle of the staff. His report is based on the
7 information he had received from the field as a SUP chief.
8 Q. And who would he have received that information from in the
10 A. Well, he probably received field information from PJP members.
11 Q. Now, we saw -- we see in that passage that he is referring to the
12 plan to combat terrorism, and he says, we have adopted it and it's mostly
13 being carried out. This is the same plan that General Lukic had
14 instructed those present at the 2nd December meeting to prepare; correct?
15 A. Not to prepare. They drew up a plan and implemented it, as far
16 as I can see based on the document. Of course, I'm not familiar with it,
17 but my interpretation is similar to yours.
18 Q. Okay. So this is the same plan that General Lukic instructed SUP
19 chiefs to draw up and implement at the other MUP staff meeting that we
20 saw on 2nd December; correct?
21 A. I didn't quite understand you. What do you mean the same plan?
22 Could you please repeat it.
23 Q. Sir, we had just looked at the MUP staff minutes -- I mean, the
24 minutes of a MUP staff meeting of 2nd December where General Lukic
25 instructed those present to draw up a plan to combat terrorism by the 7th
1 of December. Remember we just saw that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What I'm putting to you, sir, here is that the SUP chief of the
4 Djakovica SUP is saying that he is implementing that that plan, in fact,
5 has been drawn up and that it's being mostly carried out. That's what he
6 is saying; correct?
7 A. I cannot claim that. I do not control the work of the chief of
8 the Djakovica SUP, nor did I take part in drafting the plans. There were
9 certain things that were done confidentially, under confidential
10 circumstances. So I cannot tell you something I don't know. So the
11 relationship between the chief of the secretariat and the staff is
12 something that I'm not privy to. It was strictly confidential. And it
13 was up to them to decide how to draw up plans, who would be doing it, at
14 which level. I knew nothing about that.
15 Q. So earlier, sir, when I asked you whether these plans to combat
16 terrorism were drafted with the MUP staff with input from SUPs, you
17 essentially said no, that the MUP staff acted with information from state
18 security; that's what you said, no?
19 A. That's not exactly as you put it. As I have told you, all plans
20 were drawn up at the staff. All assessments were made there and then
21 orders were issued for tasks to be carried out. You probably
22 misunderstood me.
23 Q. Sir, what I'm asking you is whether that was done with input from
24 SUPs, and earlier you had told me no, and now you are telling me that the
25 relationship between the chief of the SUP and the staff was strictly
1 confidential so you wouldn't know if they were drawing up plans; is that
2 what you are saying now?
3 A. Well, I've said what I've said, and it also depended on the
4 situation. The situation changed from one minute to the next. Sometimes
5 there were unwritten rules, so it's not like the rule was written down in
6 stone. That's how it always had to be.
7 MS. KRAVETZ: If we can move on in the same document, page 6 in
8 the B/C/S and page 9 in the English. And just for clarity, the passage
9 we are going to look at is -- it refers to something stated by General
10 Stevanovic, which in the English begins on the previous page. I believe
11 in the B/C/S it's all on one page. So if we could go to the bottom of
12 page 9, and in the -- yes.
13 Q. And it says there, this is General Stevanovic speaking:
14 "You made plans to combat terrorism and submitted them to the
15 staff. It is the assessment of the staff that they are mostly being
17 Do you see that passage, sir?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, if we go to the next page in the English, and we are still
20 on page 6, fifth bullet point in the B/C/S, this is still General
21 Stevanovic speaking, he says -- I'm sorry, I'm losing my voice:
22 "Broader actions towards terrorist basis should be plans by the
23 ministry staff; however, the initiative should be with the secretariats
24 who should make preparations and compile recommendations of the activity
25 plan. All plans should be based on the principles of police operation."
1 Do you see that, sir?
2 A. Yes, yes, I can see it very well.
3 Q. So isn't General Stevanovic saying here that although the plans
4 for anti-terrorist actions are planned by the MUP staff, the initiative
5 to do these is with the SUPs who are, in fact, better placed to know what
6 the situation is in their area of responsibility, no?
7 A. Well, in my view, this is more about some pieces of information,
8 some intelligence rather than plans. It says here, Plans, but those were
9 really some security assessments that the secretariats could send to the
10 staff so that they could draw up a plan on the basis of that. That
11 wasn't a general plan.
12 Q. Okay. So just going back to my initial question, and following
13 up from your answer, in order for the MUP of staff to draw up plans, it
14 needed the input from SUPs who had the information of what was going on
15 on the ground; correct? You are saying they would provide security
16 assessments, that was information required to know where to carry out
17 police actions, wasn't it?
18 A. Well, you put it yourself, I have nothing to add. It's as you
19 put it. But you keep forgetting that there is also the public -- rather
20 the state security department which was within the staff, and that's not
21 something you should neglect because the state security is the
22 intelligence service, and that's something that you should never, never
23 neglect when talking about these things.
24 Q. Sir, all I'm trying to clarify is just the role of SUPs in the
25 drawing up of these plans, that is all I am trying to clarify here. And
1 it was you who said that the secretariats, you said it says here, Plans,
2 but those were really some security assessments that the secretariats
3 could send to the staff. So you are saying that the secretariats sent
4 information to the staff from what I understand it, so that they could
5 draw up a plan on the basis of that? Isn't that what you are saying?
6 A. Well, I wasn't informed of that. I wasn't aware of that, but it
7 would be logical for them to make a sort of an assessment in that
8 situation. Let me reiterate, the state security service was the one who
9 provided intelligence and who took part in drafting the plans because the
10 deputy --
11 Q. Sir --
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. We are not talking about the state security service, sir. I'm
14 just bringing you back to my question which had to do with the role of
15 SUPs. And I'm understanding that you are agreeing with me that the MUP
16 staff required information. I'm not saying that was the only source,
17 just so we are clear, I am not saying that was the exclusive source was
18 information provided by the SUPs, but they did require chiefs of SUPs to
19 provide information in order to be able to draw plans for police actions?
20 A. I was not aware of that. I don't know about that. I suppose
21 that there may have been such cases in some situations.
22 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honours, I see Mr. Popovic is sort of on his
23 feet, sitting back down.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Popovic.
25 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, once again, the
1 witness has answered the question, but for the third time the witness --
2 JUDGE PARKER: [Overlapping speakers] ... Mr. Popovic. I keep
3 having to repeat it. It's borne out of the experience of the
4 interventions that happened earlier in this trial. Where a witness is
5 not being in any way overborne, as this witness clearly is not, the
6 witness is being allowed to answer questions. If there is then an
7 objection that is well-founded, we will take it into account.
8 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you.
9 MS. KRAVETZ:
10 Q. Thank you, sir. So you said that you were not aware that plans
11 drawn up by the MUP staff had any input from SUPs. Are you saying, sir,
12 that if police actions were going to be carried out in your municipality,
13 you also did not provide any input or were requested to provide any input
14 to the Djakovica SUP as to where there were problem areas or issues that
15 needed to be addressed regarding the KLA in your municipality? You were
16 never asked to do that?
17 A. No, because they knew what was happening on the ground. They had
18 intelligence available to them. There were members of state security in
19 every secretariat, and they made their own assessments. That was
20 something that was well known to everybody in the Djakovica SUP even
21 within the office of the police department. So the entire area was
22 covered by terrorists and terrorist groups, and one didn't need to have
23 great knowledge and great expertise to study that in detail.
24 Q. And your evidence, sir, is that you knew nothing about any sort
25 of police actions carried out in your municipality? Actions carried out
1 by PJP units, you knew nothing about that?
2 A. As I have told you, I heard that actions were being carried out,
3 but I wasn't directly involved in them. I wasn't involved in drafting
4 any plans. It was a well known fact that there were terrorist activities
5 in the entire territory of Kosovo
6 by terrorists and terrorist activities of a large scale.
7 Q. That is exactly why I'm asking the question, sir. I mean, you
8 were in a municipality where there was extensive action -- or there were
9 extensive actions carried out by the police against the KLA, and earlier
10 you told us that you knew nothing of the activities of the PJP units and
11 you had nothing to do with them. And now you are saying that you heard
12 that actions were being carried out?
13 A. Well, I had nothing to do when it comes to command
14 responsibility. I wasn't involved in drafting the plans. I didn't know
15 about their scope of work and the area where they carried out that work.
16 Q. Sir, I will tell you again just to clarify, I'm not suggesting
17 anything dealing with command responsibility. I'm just trying to
18 understand your scope of knowledge of the police actions being carried
19 out on the ground. And earlier you told us that you knew nothing about
20 the activities of police units, and now you are telling us that you heard
21 that actions were carried out?
22 A. Wait a minute, I can't understand anything that I heard. Well,
23 one could interpret it in many ways. One could hear gun-fire in the
24 vicinity, fire from heavy artillery, heavy guns. One could hear that
25 actions were carried out.
1 Q. So you were aware that actions were being carried out by PJP
2 units in your municipality?
3 A. I did hear, but I didn't know that they were supposed to be
4 carried out and when.
5 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honours, I see we've reached the end of the
7 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, we must adjourn now. We will resume tomorrow
8 morning at 9.00. We must adjourn now. A Court Officer will assist you
9 when we adjourn.
10 [The witness stands down]
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.
12 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 24th day of
13 March, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.