1 Tuesday, 27 April 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Would you please read aloud the affirmation shown
9 to you.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
11 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
12 WITNESS: STOJAN MISIC
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Please sit down.
15 Mr. Djurdjic.
16 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
17 Examination by Mr. Djurdjic:
18 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, General.
19 A. Good afternoon.
20 Q. We both speak the same language. I'd like to ask you to wait,
21 following the end of my questions, before providing your answers. And
22 when answering, try to do your utmost so as to enable everyone working on
23 this case to do their work in a quality way and so that we can move along
25 Mr. Misic, for the needs of the transcript, could you please give
1 us your personal information.
2 A. My name is Stojan Misic. Born on the 3rd of April, 1949
3 village of Prevalac, the municipality of Vranje
4 Q. Thank you. What is your current occupation?
5 A. I'm retired.
6 Q. Thank you. When did you retire, Mr. Misic?
7 A. I retired in late 2000.
8 Q. Thank you. What is your educational background?
9 A. I have a law degree, and I passed the bar exam.
10 Q. Thank you. In brief, can you give us an overview of your
11 professional career?
12 A. At the law school in Belgrade
13 internship with the county court in Vranje where I also passed the bar
14 exam in 1976. In 1977, I became employed with the joint Secretariat of
15 the Interior in Leskovac. That secretariat covered the area of Leskovac.
16 I was appointed assistant secretary of the joint secretariat for
17 combatting crime.
18 I worked there until 1981 when I was appointed chief of
19 secretariat in Vranje. I remained in that position until 1986. That
20 year, I was assigned to the Republican Secretariat of the Interior
21 answerable -- which later on became the Ministry of the Interior. My
22 position was that of chief of administration for combatting crime. I
23 remained in that position until 1990.
24 In 1990/1991, I was appointed by the government to be the
25 assistant minister. I remained in that position until
1 2002 [as interpreted]. Given that a number of governments changed during
2 that period of time, I was appointed on a number of occasions to be
3 assistant minister. Until 1997, I was assistant minister in charge of
4 combatting crime and crime police. As of 1997, I was assistant minister
5 in charge of alien affairs, travel documents, as well as fire-fighting
6 and communications.
7 I became major-general in 1996 in March. In 2000, in July, I was
8 promoted to the rank lieutenant-general.
9 Q. Thank you. For the needs of the transcript, in line 25, it is
10 stated that you were assistant minister until 2002?
11 A. No, that was until 2000.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have P263.
14 Your Honours, before moving to the document, could we please be
15 allowed to provide the hard copies of all documents we intend to use to
16 the witness in order to move speedily along.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
18 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Another thing, Your Honour, could
19 we go into private session for just a moment. I forgot one thing.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
21 [Private session]
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
12 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Mr. Misic, please open your binder. As you can see, each
14 document has a tab starting with the number 1 on. I'll tell you
15 precisely which tab you will require and, of course, we'll start with
16 tab 1.
17 This is a dispatch of the minister of the interior,
18 Mr. Vlajko Stojiljkovic, dated 4 June 1997. Briefly, can you comment on
20 A. This dispatch bears the date of the 4th of June, 1997. It was
21 sent from the Ministry of the Interior. In the signature block we see
22 that the name of the minister, Vlajko Stojiljkovic, appears. He informed
23 all organisational units at the seat of the ministry, both the public and
24 state security sectors, as well as all organisational units in the area
25 of the Republic of Serbia
1 well as the MUP staff and border police stations, the police academy,
2 college of Internal Affairs, the secondary school of Internal Affairs,
3 and the security institute.
4 He informs them that he had issued a decision by virtue of which
5 he appointed General Vlastimir Djordjevic, assistant minister, as of
6 June 1, 1997
7 Your Honours, perhaps you could advise me of my speed. Am I
8 speaking too slowly or too fast?
9 JUDGE PARKER: You seem to be doing well at the moment.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 He also informed all of the organisational units that at a
12 session of the Serbian government which was held on the same day,
13 Major-General Petar Zekovic and Major-General Obrad Stevanovic were
14 appointed assistant ministers. My name does not appear here because, as
15 I've already explained, I was appointed assistant minister back in 1991.
16 We can also see that the minister informs the addressees of the tasks he
17 had assigned to the aforementioned assistant ministers. Among other
18 things, he states that Major-General Stojan Misic was in charge of the
19 administration for foreigners, administrative and legal affairs, fire
20 prevention police, and communication affairs.
21 Q. For the needs of the transcript, could you please repeat what you
22 said concerning Vlastimir Djordjevic. What position was he appointed to
23 as of June 1?
24 A. Lieutenant-General Vlastimir Djordjevic was appointed assistant
25 minister as well as acting chief of the public security sector. It was
1 the first time in my year long career in the police that we had an acting
2 chief of the public security sector. Such a situation did not occur any
3 time after that either.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] We had the word "acting" missing
6 from the transcript.
7 Q. We can see by way of dispatch, this dispatch, the minister
8 assigned domains or remits to each of the assistant ministers. Can you
9 tell us what affairs were the assistant ministers in charge of?
10 A. Assistant ministers are professionals assisting the work of the
11 minister of the interior. I.e., they are each assigned different areas
12 of responsibility; they are in charge of monitoring those areas; and of
13 putting forth proposals in order to deal with certain problems by way of
14 minister's decisions. They put these proposals to the minister. And in
15 cases in which he accepts their proposals, they are then in turn tasked
16 with implementing them through the various organisational units. It is
17 for that reason that they forward instructional dispatches, monitor the
18 implementation of tasks, and inform the minister of it.
19 Therefore, assistant ministers do not have their individual
20 original authority to issue any or -- issue any measures to the
21 organisational units. This can only be done by the minister himself.
22 Q. Thank you. Can assistant ministers act on the minister's orders
23 in order to undertake certain measures?
24 A. Assistant ministers in any case act on the minister's orders or
25 instructions in order to undertake specific measures.
1 Q. Thank you. We can see in this dispatch that the minister
2 allocated the work lines to the deputy ministers [as interpreted].
3 Under what type of tasks do these professional lines of work fall in
4 view of the classification of internal affairs?
5 A. In view of the internal structure of the MUP and in view of the
6 tasks the ministry carries out, we have here practically
7 assistant ministers who are only in charge of public security tasks. We
8 have two departments in the ministry: the state security department that
9 deals with the security issues concerning the republic and state affair;
10 and then we have the public security sector that deals with public
11 security. So here we see assistant ministers who were covering different
12 areas in the public security section.
13 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] In line 4, in my question, it is
14 erroneously written "deputy minister," it should state "assistant
15 minister." This is on page 6, actually, line 4.
16 Page 24 [as interpreted], line 6.
17 Q. Sir, and this relationship among the assistant ministers, what
18 was that like?
19 A. The assistant minister has their own immediate superior, that is,
20 the minister. He is the superior officer to all assistant ministers.
21 But they are equal. They cannot issue assignments to each other. Once
22 they do receive an assignment from the minister, they are responsible for
23 the execution of those assignments to the minister.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] On page 7, line 3, again, it's
1 stated again "deputy minister" instead of "assistant minister."
2 Q. And when we are here dealing with these problems, we are having
3 problems with the transcript, what is the difference, Mr. Misic, between
4 the deputy minister and the assistant minister for Internal Affairs?
5 A. Thank you. The deputy minister and assistant minister are
6 appointed by the government. There is a major difference in their
7 powers. When we are talking about the deputy minister, his original
8 powers are such that if the minister is absent, he can take all the
9 measures and actions that are in the jurisdiction of the minister of the
10 MUP. He can handle all of these jobs. As far as assistant ministers are
11 concerned, they do not have those same powers.
12 Q. Thank you. And now, this dispatch that we have in front of us,
13 number 263, who has been given certain professional sectors to deal with
14 and which are those posts?
15 A. I'm sorry, I didn't understand your question. You are talking
16 about this dispatch that we have in front of us?
17 Q. Yes, yes, that's right.
18 A. Other than what I have already said about the tasks that I was in
19 charge with --
20 Q. Well, Mr. Misic, let's just see which persons were carrying out
21 which tasks.
22 A. These people were carrying out the function of assistant
24 Q. Thank you. At the time when Mr. Vlajko Stojiljkovic was minister
25 of Internal Affairs, was anyone the deputy minister? Was such a post
1 assigned by the government?
2 A. During the tenure of Vlajko Stojiljkovic, there was no deputy
3 minister. We had a deputy minister with the previous minister,
4 Mr. Sokolovic; and there was a deputy minister before him when
5 Minister Bogdanovic was in office.
6 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, during 1998 and 1999, what were the
7 duties of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia
8 A. The Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Republic of Serbia
9 carries out the duties as laid down by law for a state organ of that
10 type. They deal with the protection and security that pertains to the
11 republic. They carry out duties of protecting the lives and the property
12 of citizens, and they take care of their safety. Then they maintain
13 public law and order. They also have crime fighting functions, as well
14 as processing and prosecuting and finding the perpetrators of criminal
15 acts. They also deal with traffic security issues, border control, and
16 checks of foreigners and aliens. There is also the fire-fighting police
17 force. There are also internal administrative affairs such as the
18 issuance of personal ID cards, certificates of citizenship, issuance of
19 passports, and so on and so forth.
20 These duties are distributed or divided between state security,
21 which is protection of the republic, and public security, which comprise
22 all the other jobs that I have just listed.
23 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell us, in 1988 [as interpreted] and
24 1999, who was at the head of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the
25 Republic of Serbia
1 A. In 1999 and 1998, the head of the Ministry of Internal Affairs
2 was the minister, Mr. Vlajko Stojiljkovic.
3 Q. Thank you. And what were the minister's tasks and duties
4 pursuant to the regulations and the laws of the Republic of Serbia
5 A. The minister was at the head of the ministry pursuant to the
6 provisions of the law. The minister represented the
7 Ministry of Internal Affairs. He organised an efficient and responsible
8 execution of Internal Affairs tasks, and he decided on the duties and the
9 responsibilities and the rights of the employees of the MUP.
10 He was responsible for his work and the work of the ministry as a
11 whole. Upon the request -- actually, the minister was elected and
12 dismissed by the National Assembly upon the request of the
13 National Assembly or the president of the republic. The minister was
14 obliged to submit reports about the security situation in the territory
15 of the Republic of Serbia
16 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us what were the powers of the minister
17 of Internal Affairs of the Republic of Serbia
18 A. He was authorised to set the manner in which work and duties
19 would be executed, and pursuant to that, he would issue the appropriate
20 instructions on the execution of tasks in the sphere of Internal Affairs.
21 He was also authorised to issue directives and regulations,
22 administrative guide-lines, and make decisions on specific matters in his
24 Q. And how were the duties of the MUP actually carried out in terms
25 of organisation?
1 A. Oh, all right, in terms of organisation. I emphasised earlier
2 that the Ministry of Internal Affairs had two departments: the public
3 security department and the state security department. We also had
4 organisational units that were outside of those two departments, meaning
5 schools, secondary school, higher school, the security institute, and we
6 also had a department for legal and general affairs.
7 As for public security, these -- we mentioned earlier what the
8 duties of that department were. As far as the organisational structure
9 is concerned, if I may be permitted to speak about that, the public
10 security department consisted of organisational units at the headquarters
11 of the public security department, and it also had organisational units
12 which were outside of the headquarters. These were territorial
13 organisational units throughout the entire territory of the republic,
14 meaning that the entire republic was covered by a network of basic
15 organisational units.
16 As far as organisational units at the seat were concerned, the
17 minister decided that these would be referred to as administrations.
18 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Let me just interrupt you.
19 Can we look at Exhibit P357.
20 Q. This is in tab 2 in your binder, sir. And while we are waiting
21 to see this document on the screen, would you just kindly tell us,
22 General, sir, who determined the scope of activity of organisational
23 units, their respective areas and seats?
24 A. Their sphere of activity would be determined by the minister of
25 Internal Affairs by the adoption of appropriate regulations which would
1 be called the rules on the internal organisation of the Ministry of
2 Internal Affairs.
3 Q. Thank you. We have these rules on the internal organisation of
4 these units here in front of us. Can you please tell us, this document
5 regulates the organisation of which sector of the MUP?
6 A. This document regulates only the public security department, and
7 in the document itself, it is stated that a special set of rules will be
8 adopted regulating the department of state security, primarily because of
9 the confidential nature of that department.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we please look at page 9 of
12 the English version and page 11 of the B/C/S version.
13 Q. In your copy, sir, this is page 9 of the rules.
14 A. Excuse me just for a moment.
15 Q. At the bottom of the page. Actually, at the top of the page you
16 will see that it is -- that's where the page number is.
17 Now, let's look at Article 13. Can you please tell us what types
18 of organisational units are these?
19 A. Just like I said before, they were organisational units
20 established at the seat of the ministry, and they are mentioned on
21 page 9. If needed, I can say that these are the crime police
22 administration, police administration --
23 Q. There's no need. We can see that ourselves.
24 A. All right. We have 11 administrations, and they were all located
25 at the seat of the ministry, and they covered certain areas of activity.
1 In order to be able to follow more easily how matters proceeded, we
2 referred to these administrations as professional lines of work.
3 Q. Thank you. And what was the organisational structure of the
4 administrations at the seat of the ministry?
5 A. Their organisation at the seat of the ministry was such that there were
6 sections. Then after that we had divisions as organisational units within
7 the administration. And then at the end, of course, we had Working Groups.
8 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell us what were the assignments of
9 the administrations within the seat of the ministry?
10 A. Their duties, first of all, were to direct, co-ordinate, and have
11 an overview the work of their units in the whole territory of the
12 republic as professional lines of work. They would issue instructions,
13 directions, rules of conduct in order to provide uniform methods and
14 advance the work of organisational units in the territory of the whole
15 Republic, that is to say, secretariats and their lines of work.
16 Q. Thank you. And can you please tell us what were the territorial
17 organisational units outside of the seat of the MUP?
18 A. Territorial organisational units outside of the ministry were
19 secretariats for Internal Affairs as the main basic territorial
20 organisational units of the ministry, and they each covered an area. And
21 overall they covered the entire territory of the Republic of Serbia
22 Besides that, the secretariats also covered, and I'm speaking
23 generally, certain regions as administrative units, although there were
24 some differences there. In other municipalities outside of the
25 secretariat seat, there were organisational units such as the
1 Departments of Internal Affairs or police stations.
2 Q. Thank you. We will come to that. Just -- can you please tell us
3 if you recall how many SUPs there were in the territory of the
4 Republic of Serbia
5 A. Yes, of course, I remember that. I did this kind of work for
6 many years. There were 33 secretariats on the territory of the whole
7 republic. There were seven secretariats in the Autonomous Province
8 Vojvodina, and also seven secretariats in the Autonomous Province
9 Kosovo and Metohija, and there were 19 secretariats which covered the
10 rest of the territory of the Republic of Serbia
11 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us something about the internal
12 organisation of the secretariat for Internal Affairs, please?
13 A. Yes, I can. The Secretariats of Internal Affairs also had
14 organisational units at the seat of the secretariat and organisational
15 units outside of the secretariat seat. The organisational units at the
16 seat of the SUP
17 municipalities, smaller secretariats, they had divisions; and then within
18 those we had groups which were grouped by the type of assignment. So
19 that was practically the type of organisation which corresponded to the
20 organisation at the seat of the ministry according to the lines of
21 activity, but at the ministry we had 11 such professional lines, and at
22 the secretariats we had 8 such lines, as far as I can recall.
23 Q. Thank you. What tasks did the SUPs have?
24 A. I apologise, I omitted something. I needed to say that the SUP
25 in Belgrade
2 corresponded to the organisational units at the seat of the ministry. It
3 was done this way because the secretariat in Belgrade was the largest
4 secretariat covering the most territory, and it had the most complex
5 issues to deal with, as well as the greatest number of crimes and
6 perpetrators. That is why its organisational structure had to be more
7 developed than was the case with the other secretariats.
8 We also omitted to say what organisational units there existed
9 outside the secretariat seat. Those were the so-called OUPs, or
10 departments of Internal Affairs, as well as police stations. Police
11 stations were established in those municipalities which had small
12 populations and fewer problems.
13 Q. Thank you. My question was what were the tasks of the SUPs?
14 A. The Secretariats of Internal Affairs had all tasks within the
15 remit of the ministry concerning Internal Affairs to deal with in the
16 seat of the secretariats.
17 Q. What about OUPs and police stations?
18 A. Internal Affairs departments and police stations dealt directly
19 with all Internal Affairs tasks in their respective municipalities.
20 Q. Thank you. Who was at the helm of the public security sector?
21 A. The public security sector was headed by the chief of that
23 Q. Thank you. In 1998 and 1999 who was the chief of the public
24 security sector?
25 A. Chief of the public security sector in those two years was
1 Mr. Vlastimir Djordjevic.
2 Q. Thank you. Who was at the helm of the administrations in the
3 seat of the ministry?
4 A. Those administrations were headed by chiefs of administrations
5 who were in charge of the administrations.
6 Q. Thank you. Who was at the head of SUPs and OUPs?
7 A. At the helm of the SUPs and OUPs, there were chiefs of
8 secretariats and chiefs of OUPs.
9 Q. Thank you. General, who appointed those in charge of the public
10 security sector, starting with the chief of the sector and going down to
11 chiefs of administrations and chiefs of the SUPs and OUPs?
12 A. The people you just referred to were appointed by the minister
13 because he was the only one who had the original power to appoint key
14 officials, i.e., those in charge of the organisational units in question.
15 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us how the minister headed the ministry?
16 A. Do you mean the minister Vlajko Stojiljkovic?
17 Q. In principle I had in mind the minister as an institution.
18 A. Given my large experience, my rich experience, because I worked
19 with a number of different ministers, it all depended on the type and
20 method of work of each individual minister. Therefore, we had different
21 management styles represented.
22 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us what sort of management styles
24 A. First of all, we had minister's collegiums, that was one method
25 of work. We also had sessions, periodical sessions, attended by all
1 leading personnel from all the organisations. Such sessions and meetings
2 were held periodically, quarterly. So within any given year, as a rule,
3 we had four or even more sessions.
4 Q. Thank you. Can you explain the way the MUP was managed when
5 Mr. Vlajko Stojiljkovic was minister?
6 A. I can tell you that Minister Vlajko Stojiljkovic used to be the
7 chief of the secretariat of internal affairs in Pozarevac. He was very
8 confident in his belief that he was very familiar with the overall domain
9 of public security. In the performance of his duties, he occasionally
10 assumed the authority of even those around him. He frequently summoned
11 chiefs of administrations and even some junior officials without the
12 knowledge of the chiefs of sectors or assistant ministers in charge of
13 certain areas issuing them tasks.
14 Later on he would not inform us, undermining our authority. He
15 also sent certain assistant ministers to replace certain officials
16 without previously informing sector chiefs or assistant ministers. We
17 were in an uneasy situation therefore. By introducing this type of
18 management, hierarchical relationships that used to exist in the ministry
19 was undermined, including the entire subordination system.
20 Q. Can you provide a specific example to illustrate what you've just
22 A. I recall a case in which the chief of the SUP in Vranje came to
24 materiel. First he went to see the chief of sector, and he also came to
25 see me for consultations. After that, he went back to Vranje. In the
1 course of that evening, he called me stating that he was replaced,
2 removed from his position. And he insisted that I told him why he was
3 replaced and why I did not advise him of that previously. I told him I
4 had no knowledge of that whatsoever, and I called Mr. Djordjevic to check
5 with him whether he was informed of that. He was as surprised as I was,
6 stating that he had no idea.
7 In the meantime, the assistant public security sector chief
8 Dragisa was sent to the field and he removed the SUP of Vranje chief.
9 There were also situations in which he issued specific tasks
10 circumventing sector chiefs or assistant ministers in charge of certain
11 areas such as the area of combatting crime. It was in that area in
12 particular where he issued tasks in this direct way.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have D434.
15 Q. Which is your tab 3.
16 We will see and excerpt from a meeting of the minister and the
17 secretariat chiefs held on the 16th of September [as interpreted], 1999,
18 in Belgrade
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 1998.
20 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Can you tell us anything about such meetings as a method of work
22 and in particular this meeting, the summary of which we can see here?
23 A. This was one of the ways of managing and directing the entire
24 Ministry of Internal Affairs by way of periodical meetings. We can see
25 that this meeting was held on the 16th of October, 1998. The agenda
1 included items pertaining to the analysis of work conducted between
2 January and September 1998. There's also a number of specific tasks
3 mentioned therein.
4 Q. Let me interrupt you there. Who attended this meeting, people
5 from which sector?
6 A. It was attended by members of the public security sector. At the
7 meeting, the security situation was discussed in terms of public security
8 as we have just discussed a moment ago.
9 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. So as -- so that the
10 Chamber and the Prosecution could follow, could we please move to page 2
11 in the English and 3 in the B/C/S.
12 Q. General, who attended this meeting of the 16th of October, 1998
13 A. The meeting was attended by the minister,
14 Mr. Vlajko Stojiljkovic, as well as assistant ministers Radomir Markovic
15 and Petar Zekovic. Next, there were assistant chiefs of the public
16 security sector, Dragisa Dinic and Marinko Kresoja. I chaired the
17 meeting, and it was attended by all chiefs of all administrations at the
18 seat of the ministry as well as by the chiefs of Secretariats of Internal
19 Affairs in the ministry.
20 Q. Thank you. We can see from the minutes that the chiefs of
21 administration submitted their reports on the results of their work for
22 the first nine months of year and that the minister provided feedback by
23 way of an assessment of their work. In that period, that is to say after
24 the first nine months of 1998, what was the most important
25 security-related task in the public security sector?
1 A. The most important security-related task at the time was the
2 situation in Kosovo and Metohija. There were terrorist activities
3 underway, and one of the priorities in any case was to address that.
4 Q. Thank you. Did you analyse the anti-terrorist activities in
5 Kosovo and Metohija during that meeting in the aforementioned period?
6 A. We did not analyse any anti-terrorist activities in
7 Kosovo and Metohija at the meeting. Only the minister provided a general
8 assessment stating that the tasks in that domain were executed well in
9 the fight against terrorism. Apart from his contribution, there were no
10 other analyses or contributions by any chiefs of secretariats or chiefs
11 of administrations.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we next please have page 6
14 in the English and your page 5.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, you said page 5?
16 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 Q. General, sir, could you comment on paragraphs 2 and 3?
18 A. These are mostly statistics. Mention is made of the measures
19 undertaken against the perpetrators of crimes, as well as what measures
20 were taken in terms of detaining and bringing in persons. That was the
21 statistical data provided for the most part.
22 Next --
23 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please go to page 9 in
24 the B/C/S and 10 in the English version.
25 Q. Have you found page 9?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Can we have your comments on paragraph 3?
3 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] And we are talking about page 10
4 in English.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I?
6 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Yes, we have it. The paragraph starting with the words "Over the
8 past nine
9 A. This paragraph indicates that in the previous nine months joint
10 services were engaged primarily in equipping Special Police Units for
11 special security tasks in the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija.
12 Both at the meeting of the collegium and at this meeting, they put forth
13 their needs and requirements in terms of the procurement of vehicles,
14 explosives, equipment for night vision, and such-like.
15 The proposal made, in terms of logistics, was to take appropriate
16 measures. At this meeting they reported on what they had done over the
17 previous nine months.
18 Q. Thank you. Mr. Misic, General, sir, at such meetings up until
19 the end of 1998 and then up until the end of 1999, did you receive
20 reports and consider matters related to anti-terrorist activities, i.e.,
21 prevention of terrorist activities in Kosovo and Metohija?
22 A. In the course of 1998 and 1999, we did not receive any plans for
23 organising anti-terrorist activities or reports on the implementation of
24 any such plans.
25 Q. Thank you. Who was charged with these issues within the
1 Ministry of the Interior in the Republic of Serbia
2 and 1999?
3 A. In 1998 and 1999, as far as anti-terrorist activities are
4 concerned, it was the staff for combatting terrorism set up by the
5 minister of the interior on the 16th of June, 1998, that dealt with these
7 Q. Thank you. And how did you receive information, if any, on the
8 security situation in Kosovo and Metohija in 1998 and 1999?
9 A. We did not receive reports, but we did receive daily overviews of
10 events from the staff for the prevention of terrorism whereby we were
11 informed about terrorist attacks and provocative incidents and the
12 consequences thereof. This was a way of keeping us informed.
13 Q. Thank you. Now, collegium, can you explain how it worked within
14 the Ministry of the Interior?
15 A. As I've already pointed out, the collegium was one of the ways in
16 which the ministry was run. As far as the form and substance are
17 concerned, it depended on the incumbent minister and how he handled
18 matters. I had occasion to attend the collegium of Minister Sokolovic,
19 Zoran Sokolovic, who was minister before Mr. Vlajko Stojiljkovic. It was
20 a minister's collegium which was attended by chiefs of the service of
21 public security, chief of the state security service, and assistant
22 ministers. I was assistant minister at the time.
23 In principle, these meetings discussed the security situation in
24 the republic. These matters were discussed with a view to improving the
25 work of the ministry. At the close of the meeting, conclusions were
1 adopted, which chiefs of the various sectors, both the state security and
2 public security, were duty-bound to implement. The chiefs of these
3 departments or sectors had their own collegiums; for instance, public
4 security would have its collegium where chiefs of administrations would
5 report on their activity and propose measures, and the chief of the
6 sector would issue directions as to what the focal points and priorities
7 would be for the forthcoming period. Minutes were made of such meetings
8 as well.
9 When it came to the collegium held by
10 Minister Vlajko Stojiljkovic, the situation was somewhat different. It
11 was in essence a collegium of public security chaired by the minister.
12 Of course, it was the minister's collegium. The collegium was attended
13 by the assistant ministers; minister himself; chief of the public
14 security sector; I have already mentioned assistant ministers, we know
15 who those were; then chiefs of all administrations as well.
16 The sector chief would pass the floor to the minister who would
17 in turn seek from the chiefs of administrations to come out with an
18 analysis of their respective activities. They reported on the results
19 achieved and problems encountered. At the end, assistant ministers and
20 the sector chief would, if they had any important issues to raise, do so.
21 And the minister of the interior, Vlajko Stojiljkovic, would issue
22 conclusions along each of the lines of duty whilst going into such detail
23 as was not really appropriate for the level of a minister.
24 Based on such conclusions, minutes were drafted. It was
25 Mr. Slobodan Krstic who made notes; he was the chief of the analysis
1 department who would make note of the meeting and produce minutes, and
2 they would be sent to all the attendees. And then at the following
3 collegium meeting an analysis would be made of the achievements and
4 activities done to implement minister’s orders.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we call up D108.
7 Q. Witness, you will find that document behind tab 4.
8 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. It's not D108, it's
10 Q. You've just explained to us what Vlajko Stojiljkovic's collegium
11 was like. What we'd like to know is did anyone from the state security
12 sector attend the collegium chaired by the minister?
13 A. As I said before, all the individuals present at this meeting
14 were representatives of public security. In other words, we did not have
15 either the chief or the deputy chief of the state security sector there,
16 we had those who were in charge of the public security sector.
17 Now, when -- during Mr. Sokolovic's term of office there,
18 representatives of the state security sector were present at these
19 meetings at all times.
20 Q. Thank you. We have D208 before us which is the decision to set
21 up the collegium of the minister of interior dated the
22 4th of December, 1998. Can you tell us anything more about this decision
23 and the way in which matters were handled by way of this collegium once
24 the decision was issued?
25 A. Well, you can see that the minister issued the decision on the
1 4th of December, 1998, whereby the collegium of the minister of the
2 interior was set up. Let me note that the state security sector chief
3 was Mr. Jovica Stanisic who did not attend minister's collegiums. Since
4 he was replaced by Mr. Radomir Markovic as chief of public security
5 sector in the month of November, it seems that conditions were in place
6 for one such collegium to be set up.
7 In addition to the chief of the public security sector, also the
8 chief of the state security sector was to be present, as well as his
9 assistant. Another assistant minister, in fact, Mr. Nikola Curcic who
10 was otherwise a director of the security institute.
11 In addition to them, as we can see here, there were also
12 assistant ministers from public security present at this meeting, as well
13 as Dragisa Dinic who was assistant chief of the public security sector.
14 Dragan Ilic, chief of the crime police administration. A moment ago we
15 said that once Mr. Radomir Markovic left and he was in charge of that
16 field, the minister did not appoint anyone else to cover that line of
17 duty. And last but not least, we have Mr. Branko Djuric who was the
18 chief of the Secretariat of the Interior in Belgrade. Furthermore, the
19 decision also indicates that Minister’s Head of Office, Captain Danilo
20 Pantovic, and Colonel Slobodan Krstic, who was chief of the analysis
21 administration, also took part at the meeting of the collegium. And the
22 last person, chief of the analysis department, also handled minutes.
23 In addition to this, it is stated that the collegium meetings
24 could occasionally be attended by any of the other senior staff pursuant
25 to an appropriate minister's decision.
1 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us what the minister's collegium
2 actually looked like and how it worked once this 4 December 1998 decision
3 was issued?
4 A. Well, once the decision was issued, the work of the collegium, in
5 fact, continued as before. At the collegium meeting, the minister asked
6 reports to be submitted by chiefs of administrations. They did so. They
7 also proposed various measures. Then assistant ministers and the sector
8 chief would also take the floor. And at the end the minister would issue
9 conclusions. The only difference lay in the fact that the minister
10 himself would either at the beginning or at the end of the meeting, it
11 depended, a brief overview of the security situation in the
12 Republic of Serbia
13 Autonomous Province of Kosovo
14 Later on, a similar overview, only from the perspective of the
15 state security sector, would be given by the state security sector chief.
16 There was no difference in any other aspect, and it was for the most part
17 public security matters that were discussed at this -- at such meetings.
18 Q. Thank you. You said that chiefs of administrations attended
19 these meetings, but can you tell us which particular sector these
20 administrations belonged to?
21 A. Well, you see that it is stated here that the collegium is
22 composed of nine members in actual fact. However, the collegium never
23 met in this particular composition. Rather, the previous practice was
24 adhered to whereby all chiefs of administrations would attend, and I mean
25 administrations of the public security sector. Then there would also
1 be -- or, rather, chiefs of administrations of the state security sector
2 never attended these meetings.
3 Q. This way of proceeding at the collegium of the minister following
4 the 4th of December, 1998, did it prevail up until the end of the war in
6 A. Yes, that's right. The way in which the collegium worked did not
7 change either in 1998 or in 1999. It was public security affairs that
8 were discussed at these collegium meetings at all times.
9 Q. Thank you. At collegium meetings held in 1998 and 1999, did you
10 discuss the planning and directing of anti-terrorist activities in
11 Kosovo and Metohija as well as reports on anti-terrorist activities that
12 had been planned and implemented?
13 A. Well, you see, at the meetings of the minister's collegium, we
14 never discussed planning and implementing anti-terrorist activities in
15 Kosovo, nor did we receive reports on the implementation of these plans.
16 What we practically discussed at collegium meetings were proposals received
17 from administrations, notably police administration and common affairs
18 administration, about the needs that the staff had in terms of logistics.
19 Were these perhaps technical or material issues, issues of equipment, et
20 cetera, the minister would issue decisions aimed at fulfilling these needs.
21 Now, as for the planning and implementing of anti-terrorist
22 activities or a discussion of reports about such plans, this was not
23 something that was discussed at the meetings of the collegium. Rather,
24 the minister would at the start of such meetings give an overview of the
25 security situation in Kosovo and Metohija.
1 Q. Thank you. General, sir, can you briefly tell us what the
2 political and security situation was in mid-1998 in
3 Kosovo and Metohija?
4 A. The security situation in Kosovo and Metohija in mid-1998 was
5 extremely complex and difficult. This because there was a large part of
6 the territory under the control of a terrorist organisation. Roads were
7 blocked. There were relentless attacks on the police and the army.
8 Police and army facilities were under attack as well. There were
9 instances of kidnapping, murders of Serbian -- of the Serbian population,
10 as well as of the Albanians who were loyal to the Serbian state. In
11 other words, the situation was very complex and very difficult in
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to move
15 to a different topic, so I suggest that we take our break a bit early.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We will adjourn now. We will resume
17 at ten past 4.00. A Court Officer will assist you during the break.
18 [The witness stands down]
19 --- Recess taken at 3.37 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 4.13 p.m.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Can I indicate for your planning, Mr. Djurdjic,
22 that we will need to adjourn a little earlier than usual, between 5.20
23 and 5.25. So at a convenient time in that area, we'll adjourn for the
24 second break.
25 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. It's
1 possible that by that time I may even complete my examination-in-chief.
2 JUDGE PARKER: You are full of encouragement, Mr. Djurdjic.
3 That's very good news. We will see how it goes.
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 JUDGE PARKER: Please sit down.
6 Mr. Djurdjic will continue his questions.
7 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I have just a small digression.
8 D208 is no longer on our screens. Perhaps we could get it back. I have
9 just noticed something, so I would kindly ask to see page 2 in both
10 versions of this document.
11 Q. General, sir, you can also turn to page 2 of the document that
12 you have in front of you, the decision of the minister.
13 Can you please tell us whether there is an attachment for this
15 A. I don't see anything like an attachment on the second page.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 3, the
18 following page in both versions. Just one moment so that we can see the
19 relevant page in the English as well. Very well.
20 Q. General, let me ask you this, this list of collegium
21 participants, is that an integral part of the decision that we just
22 looked at?
23 A. Well, it couldn't be an integral part because this is not
24 indicated in the actual decision. That's one thing. The other thing is
25 that this is probably some kind of attachment, a kind of auxiliary list,
1 and I don't know who drafted it.
2 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we turn to the next page in
3 both versions, please.
4 Q. And you can do the same thing, General.
5 So I'm putting the same question again. Is this list and this
6 page an integral part of the decision that we were just looking at?
7 A. In my view it is not.
8 Q. Thank you. I would just like to ask you this. We see a whole
9 list of names here, and then under number 8 there is a name of
10 Miodrag Zavisic. Did you ever see him in a collegium meeting?
11 A. Zavisic was a chief of the secretariat in Novi Sad. I never used
12 to see him at sessions of the collegium, no.
13 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. We can now take this
14 document from -- off the screen. We don't need it anymore.
15 Q. Before the break you informed us about the political security
16 situation in mid-1998. So my question to you would be if, and if so,
17 which measures did the Ministry of Internal Affairs undertake in view of
18 the political security situation at the time?
19 A. We had several collegium meetings where we analysed the overall
20 security situation and sought adequate solutions. On one occasion, the
21 minister stated at the collegium, that in view of the overall complex
22 security situation, he formed a staff of the ministry for anti-terrorist
23 activities. At that point in time we, or I at least, didn't know that
24 such a decision would be made. He said that in view of the serious
25 situation, it was necessary to unify all the ministry capacities, the
1 state and the public security, in order to be able to deal more
2 effectively with the problem of terrorism.
3 Q. Thank you. Did you have the opportunity to familiarise yourself
4 with this decision by Minister Stojiljkovic?
5 A. Yes, I did have the opportunity to do that a few days afterwards.
6 I and some other assistants looked at this decision at the minister's
8 Q. Thank you. Did the minister tell you before you saw the decision
9 about the kind of staff this would be and the sort of assignments that it
10 would be given?
11 A. Yes. He said that a staff was formed for anti-terrorist actions,
12 that the staff was organised in such a way that the staff members, the
13 personnel, were both from the state and public security administrations,
14 that Mr. Sreten Lukic, General Lukic, was at the head of the staff, that
15 his deputy was David Gajic, and that the commanders of the units from
16 the - of the JSO and the anti-terrorist unit were also commanders and
17 part of the staff.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at D57 on the
21 Q. This would be tab 5 in your binder, sir. This is a decision on
22 the forming of the staff of the Ministry for the prevention of terrorism
23 of the 16th of June, 1998. The decision is issued by
24 Mr. Vlajko Stojiljkovic.
25 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, this is P57. That's the
1 exhibit. Yes, that's the one.
2 Q. General, sir, is this the decision that you were informed about
3 by the minister later?
4 A. Yes, that is the decision on the establishing of a ministry staff
5 for the suppression of terrorism, dated the 16th of June, 1998
6 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 2 of this
7 document, please.
8 Q. General, were you familiar with the extended composition of the
9 staff at the time the minister informed you about this, about the forming
10 of the staff?
11 A. Yes. We were told that the expanded composition of the staff
12 would include all the chiefs of the SUPs and the chiefs of the state
13 security centres in the territory of Kosovo
14 of the staff would comprise the extended staff.
15 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell us who was authorised to
16 establish a staff that would include members of the public and security
17 administrations and would be able to issue the staff with assignments?
18 A. This kind of staff which included members of the state and public
19 security administrations could only be formed by the minister of
20 internal affairs. He was the chief of the organ, the senior officer of
21 the organ. The chief of public security or the chief of state security
22 could not form a staff which would include personnel from both these
23 departments. Cadres from the state security department could not lead or
24 issue assignments to members of the public security sector or vice-versa.
25 Only the minister would be able to form a staff that would include both
1 personnel from the public security department and the state security
3 Q. The transcript says "centres," public security centres, were you
4 thinking about the administrations?
5 A. I was talking about the public security department and the
6 state security department and about CRDB - the centres of the state
7 security department – as well as the secretariats, chiefs of the
8 Secretariats for Internal Affairs.
9 Q. Thank you. General, sir, what was the assignment issued to the
10 staff by the minister?
11 A. The minister tasked the staff with planning, organising, and
12 managing the work and engagement of the organisational units of the
13 ministry as well as the deployed units and attached units working on the
14 suppression of terrorist activity in the territory of
15 Kosovo and Metohija.
16 Q. Thank you. Are you able to clarify for us a little bit
17 paragraph 2 under Roman II of this decision?
18 A. As you can see, the organisational units of the ministry actually are the
19 secretariats, first of all, as well as the deployed units and attached units.
20 And we said earlier these were PJP units of the police and SAJ units.
21 Q. General, sir, I'm interested in paragraph 2 under section
22 Roman II, can you please clarify that for us?
23 A. Oh, all right. I apologise. As we can see here, they are to
24 plan, organise, and control the work and engagement of organisational
25 units of the ministry and also sent an attached units [as interpreted] in
1 suppressing terrorism in the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija.
2 And we have here, actually, tasks which are closely related with the
3 terrorist actions such as smuggling of weapons and ammunition and
4 explosive devices, the trafficking and smuggling of drugs, illegal
5 crossing of state borders by groups or individuals, and so on and so forth.
6 These are all tasks practically requiring the staff to do the planning,
7 organising, direction and coordination of the work of organisational
8 units. So in that sense we have a lower level directive than the one in
9 the previous paragraph because there it says that they are to plan,
10 organise, and control the work and engagement of organisational units.
11 Q. According to what you know, what were the organisational units
12 located in Kosovo from June 1998 until the end of the war and during the
14 A. From what I know, they were the PJP Units of the police in
15 Kosovo, the SAJ
16 for special operations.
17 Q. Can you please comment item 3, Roman III, of this decision?
18 A. That deals with the fact that the head of the staff shall report
19 to the minister about his own actions, actions of the staff, and the
20 aspects of the security situation under the remit of the staff, and also
21 about informing the minister about security-related developments,
22 measures taken, and the effects of those measures.
23 Q. Thank you. You, as assistant minister, receive reports about
24 the -- did you receive reports about the work of the staff, and were you
25 invited to attend the collegium meetings, and were you informed about the
1 work of the organs formed by the minister Vlajko Stojiljkovic?
2 A. I never received any reports about the work of the staff, nor did
3 I see any reports about the work of the staff.
4 Q. Thank you. And at these collegiums, or in some other way, were
5 you informed about the planning and the conduct of anti-terrorist
6 activities in Kosovo in 1998 and 1999?
7 A. In 1998 and 1999, we never discussed planning and the conduct of
8 anti-terrorist activities at the collegium sessions, nor did we receive
9 any reports about the implemented activities. I said that we usually
10 would discuss matters that one would refer to logistical support which
11 means that we would have requests from the police administration or
12 general affairs administration to provide certain items, and the minister
13 would instruct that these items be provided.
14 We never discussed any other plans or reports other than this.
15 The collegiums also dealt with the relief of units so that the police
16 administration would also propose which units of the PJP would need to be
17 relieved, and the minister would make appropriate decisions on the
18 engagement of such units at that time.
19 Q. Thank you. Could you please look at paragraph Roman V of the
20 decision, and could you give us your comments on it.
21 A. As far as paragraph 5 about the appointment of members of the
22 ministry to the staff, this was something that was done on the basis of
23 Article 72 of the Law on Internal Affairs. This was actually done by the
24 minister, and then pursuant to approval of the minister this was also
25 something that was done by the chief of the public security
2 Q. Since we have a decision assigning persons who were members of
3 the -- to membership in the staff, why would you then also need to have
4 this decision pursuant to Article 72 as well?
5 A. This would be the original decision of the minister on
6 appointment of staff members, and then you would need to adopt the
7 accompanying decision for purposes of proper employment procedures.
8 And that is why, pursuant to minister’s authorisation, a decision
9 would be issued on sending someone to the Staff in
10 order to regulate the necessary employment and legal
12 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we look at D284
13 now, please.
14 Q. It is your tab 6. Witness, before we move on to the document
15 before us, I wanted to ask you this: By a decision on the creation of
16 the staff to combat terrorism dated the 16th of June, 1998
17 Mr. Stojiljkovic, what was the procedure envisaged for reporting and the
18 responsibility of those in charge of the staff?
19 A. Reporting went directly to the minister about all anti-terrorist
20 operations and activities. Such reports had to be sent to the minister.
21 The head of the staff in that sense was directly answerable to the
23 Q. Thank you. This is a summary of security-related events,
24 incidents, and information of the MUP staff dated the
25 14th of March, 1999. We can see who the addressees were. Were you
1 familiar with this summary, and what did it contain, if you received it?
2 A. We used to receive such summaries from the ministry staff. Among
3 others, I was one of the addressees, and I could see what the security
4 related events, incidents, and information concerned was. It mostly
5 dealt with terrorist attacks, their consequences, terrorist provocations,
6 and committed serious crimes as well as traffic accidents and fires,
7 explosions, which were particularly interesting for my sphere of work.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have P701.
10 Q. It is tab 7 in your binder.
11 We'll see a summary of security-related events, incidents, and
12 information of the MUP staff dated the 25th of April, 1999.
13 General, during the war in 1999, were you familiar with this
14 summary sent by the MUP staff in Pristina?
15 A. Formally speaking, I did not receive such summaries because they
16 were not forwarded directly to me. However, I was always informed of
17 them through the minister's cabinet. It differs slightly from the one we
18 saw before because this one included NATO attacks. I was particularly
19 interested in that because of the consequences following their bombings.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please turn to page 6.
22 Q. We see there information on certain people of Albanian and other
23 ethnicities who fled from the territory of Kosovo
24 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] In the English that would be
25 page 5.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the NATO aggression against
2 our country began, we were faced with the situation in which many
3 Albanian citizens as well as Serbian citizens and other non-Serbs began
4 leaving Kosovo and Metohija en masse. It was of great concern for us.
5 We were able to verify that a large number of people were leaving the
6 country, and the minister stated that first and foremost it came about as
7 a result of the bombing and fear of being bombed, as well as fear of
8 being caught in a clash between security forces and terrorists, as well
9 as a result of propaganda activity undertaken in order to put up an image
10 of a humanitarian disaster, as well as some threats levelled by
11 terrorists forcing people to move out. Those were all reasons for people
12 to move out of Kosovo, at least according to the information we had.
13 Q. Thank you. Since we are discussing information now, can you tell
14 us how was information exchanged in the MUP of Serbia in 1998 and 1999?
15 A. Well, you see, we had guide-lines on informing and reporting
16 within the Ministry of the Interior. It was clearly prescribed what
17 urgent information was in terms of daily briefings, periodical briefings,
18 et cetera. The intent was to have every last police station or OUP
19 provide information to the competent Secretariat of the Interior, which
20 in turn was under an obligation to provide such urgent information
21 to the competent operational centre of the interior and to the staff for
22 combatting terrorism in Kosovo.
23 Q. Thank you. General, were people leaving the territory of the
24 Republic of Serbia
25 A. I did not understand your question.
1 Q. Were people leaving the territory of Serbia
2 war, even those who were not in Kosovo and Metohija itself?
3 A. Yes, there were many such cases. A lot of people left Serbia
4 neighbouring countries or further afield in fear of bombings.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have D407.
7 Q. It is your tab 8 in your binder. This is a daily review of
8 current events and the occurrences relating to public security. The date
9 in question is 22 April 1999
10 administration of the Serbian MUP and its public security sector. The
11 date of the document is 23 April, 1999
12 Can you tell us what sort of document is this?
13 A. As we've already said, following the instructions on informing
14 and reporting, the secretariats were under an obligation to forward all
15 information as per list included in those instructions to the MUP staff
16 and operational centre. The operational centre then forwarded such
17 information to the analyses administration which compiled a summary of
18 events and incidents for the entire territory of the Republic of Serbia
19 Based on that, daily overviews were created in the field of
20 public security and then such information was passed down to the MUP
21 staff and the secretariats concerning all such security-related events of
22 the previous day.
23 Q. Thank you. General, sir, tell us this: Before
24 Minister Stojiljkovic's staff for the suppression of terrorism in
25 Kosovo and Metohija was established, did the Ministry of Interior
1 have staffs in the territory of Kosovo
2 A. Yes. Ever since the unfortunate events in Kosovo and Metohija in
3 1981 when a staff was formed by the Federal Ministry of the Interior,
4 there existed such a staff. Units were sent to the staff from all of the
5 former republics in the autonomous province of Vojvodina
6 the level the federal interior ministry until 1991 when a decision was
7 issued on the setup of the staff of the public security sector. In that
8 staff of the public security sector, there were only members of the
9 public security sector.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have D100.
12 Q. Which is tab 11 in your binder. Let me add this --
13 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Sorry, it's not tab 11, it's
14 tab 10.
15 Q. Witness, this is a decision on the formation of a staff of the
16 ministry in Pristina. We'll see the name of the public security sector
17 head, Mr. Vlastimir Djordjevic. The date is the 15th of May, 1998.
18 First of all, can you tell us what was the reason or the basis
19 for the formation of this staff?
20 A. It was based on Article 10 of the Rules on Internal Organisation
21 of the Ministry of the Interior. In Article 10 of the rules, the public
22 security sector chief is authorised to establish staffs, commissions,
23 working bodies, and other Working Groups which may be tasked with dealing
24 with different issues pertaining to the public security sector and the
1 Under Article 2, as far as I recall, he was also duty-bound to
2 inform the minister of the establishment of such a staff, or there had to
3 have been a minister's order on such a staff to be established.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please --
6 Q. Well, first of all, tell us something about the tasks on page 1.
7 In particular we have item 2. What were the tasks of the Ministry of
8 Interior specified therein?
9 A. All this falls within the remit of the public security sector.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we move on to page 2 in both
13 Q. Can you tell us something about the work of the staff and the
14 situation with public security in terms of this decision and
15 responsibilities assigned therein?
16 A. For the work of the staff and the public security situation in
17 the area of Kosovo and Metohija, it was the head of the staff who was
18 answerable to the public security sector chief.
19 Q. Thank you. What about item 6, what sort of information process
20 was envisaged there?
21 A. Item 6 envisages that the head of the staff needs to inform the
22 chief of the public security sector of the measures taken. I also wanted
23 to add that the chief of the public security sector was under an
24 obligation to inform the minister of this as well.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have P760.
2 Q. It is your tab 11, Witness. This is P706 [as interpreted], a
3 decision on the composition of the staff, leaders, and members of the
4 staff of the Ministry of the Interior for the Autonomous Province
5 Kosovo and Metohija dated the 11th of June, 1998, by General --
6 Colonel-General Vlastimir Djordjevic, chief of sector and assistant
8 General, we can see here who the members of the staff were in
9 item -- in chapter 1. As for the Roman numeral II, can you tell us who
10 became a member of the expanded staff?
11 A. The expanded staff also included chiefs of secretariats in the
12 area of Kosovo and Metohija. They were also officials of the public
13 security sector.
14 Q. Thank you. Could you please go back to your tab 5.
15 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] We need to see P57. Page 3 in the
16 B/C/S and 2 in the English.
17 Q. General, this is another decision on the setting up of staff for
18 combatting terrorism issued by Mr. Stojiljkovic. What decision was made
19 by the minister in item 6?
20 A. In item 6, the minister decided that by virtue of that decision
21 of the 16th of June, 1998
22 the staff of the ministry for the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and
23 Metohija were rendered null and void. This was the only decision that
24 remained in force following its issuance.
25 Q. General, from October 1998 onwards, what was the security and
1 political situation like in the Republic of Serbia
2 A. To the best of my recollection, it was very, very complex. There
3 was a constant threat of an aggression from the NATO pact. To that end,
4 a number of measures and activities were undertaken in order for that
5 moment to come, amid full preparation.
6 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we call up P356.
7 Q. And that's tab 12 with you, General.
8 This is dispatch number 312 dated the 18th of February, 1999
9 from the sector chief, and that's the public security sector assistant
10 minister Vlastimir Djordjevic.
11 General, at the time the dispatch was made, were you aware of its
13 A. Yes, I was acquainted with the substance of the dispatch at the
14 time it was made because I participated in its drafting, as did the
15 chiefs of the affairs that I covered, i.e., all the chiefs of
16 administrations; and subsequently assistant ministers as well took a look
17 at the dispatch, and once they all agreed that it was properly made, it
18 was forwarded to the sector chief who was in turn to hand it over to the
19 minister. The minister approved the dispatch. It was signed and sent
20 out into the field, or rather, I apologise, to the various organisational
21 units of the ministry.
22 Q. Can you tell us who the dispatch is addressed to?
23 A. To all the organisational units of the public security sector in
24 the headquarters, therefore, all the administrations and all the
25 secretariats, the ministry staff in Pristina, border police stations, and
1 the state security sector to the chief of the state security sector for
2 his information.
3 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us why was this dispatch sent to the MUP
4 staff for the prevention of terrorist activities in Pristina?
5 A. Well, it was sent to the staff because it was a very important
6 structure, in the field of the activities aimed at combatting terrorism.
7 There was a threat of an aggression and they had to be made aware of one
8 such dispatch.
9 Q. Thank you. And why was it sent to the RDB, for their
11 A. Wherever such a serious situation was involved as this one, which
12 included defence from an aggression, we took care to send such dispatches
13 to the state security sector for their information in order to keep them
14 abreast of what it was that we were doing of the activities that we were
15 engaged in since we were all part of the Ministry of the Interior.
16 Q. Thank you. What is it that the dispatch dictates?
17 A. Well, you can see that it had to do with the defence from a
18 potential aggression. In that context, we proposed a number of measures
19 and activities to be undertaken in order for us to timely respond by
20 taking measures and countering the consequences of a possible aggression.
21 The dispatch was sent to all the secretariats and organisational units.
22 If you want me to, I can speak to each and every one of these
24 Q. Thank you. I'm interested in the following: The measures that
25 are proposed, do they distinguish between the secretariats located within
1 Kosovo and Metohija and those located without?
2 A. No. Since these were ordinary tasks falling within the remit of
3 the public security sector, all the organisational units, regardless of
4 the territory they covered, were sent such dispatches. In other words,
5 no distinction was made as to the area of responsibility of a given
6 secretariat. This was very important also to ensure uniformity of work
7 and measures taken from the public security sector.
8 Q. Thank you. We can see what the various tasks were within
9 different fields.
10 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to look at page 2,
11 item 7. Can we have page 3 in the English version, please.
12 Q. General, as you read the text, can you comment on item 7, please.
13 A. You see, we had intelligence to the effect that in the
14 Republic of Serbia
15 establishment of paramilitary or para-police units. In that context, we
16 instructed organisational units to take all operative measures and
17 activities necessary in order to monitor such activities and counter them
18 in order to prevent the establishment of paramilitary or volunteer units.
19 This was the basic task. We had to be informed about their
20 potential organising and arming to that, or rather, with the measures
21 taken, we detected such groups in the making and we prevented them from
22 being set up.
23 Q. Based on your knowledge from the war in 1999, were any
24 paramilitary units active in the Republic of Serbia
25 A. To the best of my knowledge, there was no activity of
1 paramilitary units in the Republic of Serbia
2 Q. Can you tell us, was there a specific reason why the chief of the
3 public security sector himself issued this dispatch?
4 A. It was only natural for one such dispatch to be signed by the
5 chief of the public security department since all the lines of work with
6 the public security sector in the MUP were involved in its drafting,
7 including assistant ministers. Therefore, it was only natural for the
8 chief of the sector to sign one such dispatch and send it, of course,
9 with prior approval of the minister.
10 Q. Thank you. Which measures were taken by the headquarters of the
11 Ministry of the Interior in the event of an aggression against the
12 Republic of Serbia
13 A. As far as the seat of the ministry is concerned, we developed plans
14 for, among other things, its relocation to various locations, specifically
15 of particular organisational units in the seat of the ministry, since the
16 ministry itself is quite vast, organisation containing many different
17 departments, we had to envisage their relocation. This also applied to the
18 secretariats of the interior. They were given similar orders. Measures
19 were also taken to raise the readiness overall of all the employees of
20 the Ministry of the Interior. The locations where these various
21 departments were envisaged to relocate had to be equipped with
22 communication systems, et cetera.
23 We ordered that our equipment and weaponry be inventorised and
24 upgraded in order for us to be well prepared in the event of the
1 Q. Thank you. Did you want to add anything else?
2 A. That were many other things that needed to be attended to, but
3 the important thing is to say that measures were developed in order to
4 ensure permanent, active and passive duty service at the work-place and
5 duty on call of all the various organisational units in order to ensure
6 efficiency of action.
7 Q. Thank you. When a state of war was declared on the
8 24th of March, 1999, how did the public security sector operate from then
10 A. Well, you see, when a state of war was declared, the
11 Ministry of the Interior had its regular tasks to perform but under
12 different circumstances with far more staff and increased duties. We
13 performed regular public security duties during the war as well.
14 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us how work was organised at the MUP
15 headquarters during the war in 1999?
16 A. As far as the seat of the ministry is concerned, we had problems
17 because many organisational units were detached. And that's why the
18 minister, together with the sector chief, toured these locations, and I
19 went to see them as well together with the fire prevention police chief,
20 Mr. Slobodan Spasic, and several other attendant services.
21 We relocated other services as well, such as the crime police;
22 the finance service was also relocated. There were many others; I don't
23 want to enumerate them all here. We had round-the-clock duty stints
24 which were performed at a place we called "the staff." There were
25 assistant ministers and others who took turns, and there was also the
1 fire prevention police representative there. Every night we had the general
2 area bombed; there were fires, and our forces, including fire brigades, had
3 to be organised in order to address all these problems in a timely fashion.
4 We also had to draw up reports and send them to the minister in a
5 timely fashion, and then the minister would inform the government and
6 other state agencies accordingly.
7 Q. Thank you. Did the collegium of the minister meet during the
9 A. Well, yes, it did. Although, of course, the circumstances were
10 far more difficult. We held collegium meetings at different locations,
11 and these meetings were attended by the minister, together with assistants
12 for the departments of public and state security and chiefs of
13 administrations of public security. So more or less the same people who
14 had attended these meetings before continued doing so during the war.
15 Q. In 1999, during the war, therefore, who was at the head of the
16 public security sector?
17 A. It was Mr. Vlastimir Djordjevic. He was the chief of the public
18 security sector during the war.
19 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us who planned, organised, and directed anti-
20 terrorist activities in Kosovo and Metohija in 1999, i.e., during the war?
21 A. During the war in 1999, it was the staff of the
22 Ministry of the Interior for the prevention of terrorism that planned,
23 organised, and directed anti-terrorist activities in Kosovo and Metohija.
24 Q. Thank you. At the collegium meetings of the public security
25 sector, did you consider reports received from the staff for
1 anti-terrorist activities, and did you consider tasks related to the
2 implementation of anti-terrorist activities in Kosovo and Metohija?
3 A. Not once during the war did we discuss planning, organising, and
4 implementation of anti-terrorist activities in Kosovo and Metohija. On
5 the other hand, we also did not consider any reports which had to do with
6 the prevention of terrorism.
7 I repeat that we had logistics requirements. It was the police
8 administration and the administration for shared affairs that reported to
9 the minister on their activities and appropriate decisions were taken.
10 The police administration reported to the minister on the needs of the
11 units and their activities.
12 Q. Thank you. During the war did you co-operate with
13 Mr. Vlastimir Djordjevic, chief of the public security sector?
14 A. Yes, we cooperated since we were housed in the same building or
15 the same locations as the minister, and we cooperated closely. At times
16 it would be him, at times it would be me who would be sent by the
17 minister to the pogroms, that is, to the towns that had suffered great
18 destruction around Belgrade
19 together, prepared various decrees that had to be sent to the secretariats.
20 Q. Thank you. And what were your activities during the war in 1999
21 as assistant minister?
22 A. As assistant minister in charge of fire-fighting police forces
23 and communications, actually encountered a lot of problems. I was up all
24 night, practically every night, together with General Slobodan Spasic, in
25 order to organise our forces, in order to deal with the major
1 consequences of bombing, to save human lives, and so on and so forth.
2 If that sense, I was in constant touch with the relevant
3 ministries pursuant to the instruction of the minister in order to secure
4 the required technical equipment and means in order to be able to carry
5 out our assignments successfully.
6 And then as far as communications are concerned, since I'm not a
7 communications expert, I also had considerable problems in order to
8 organise the communications in the best possible way. We had
9 considerable problems because the secretariat building in Kosovo was
10 destroyed which was our special centre. The ministry in Belgrade
11 the systems room destroyed, which is where the equipment such as the special
12 telephone exchange and the telegraph networks were housed. I don't want
13 to go into too many details, but there was a lot of work. And, of
14 course, we were all so busy in the field in the basic organisational
15 units issuing instructions to them about what they were supposed to do.
16 Q. Thank you. It's time for the break now, so please tell me just
17 how the shifts were organised at the MUP staff or the headquarters? How
18 were they organised in the MUP?
19 A. The shifts in the MUP were organised. Every night, a number of
20 people were on active duty and some were on passive duty. There were
21 lists. There were some people who were on duty, including the chief of
22 the public security sector. He was also on duty. It was our job to not
23 only organise the work on the clearing up of the consequences, but also
24 to urgently inform the state leadership, the prime minister, and the
25 president of the Republic of Serbia
1 consequences and about the measures that were being taken.
2 Q. Thank you very much.
3 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have kept half of
4 my promise, and we can go for the break now. But I do still have a
5 little bit left, a little bit of time I need to complete my
6 cross-examination [as interpreted].
7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Djurdjic. We will have the second
8 break now. We expect to be able to resume just after 6.00.
9 --- Recess taken at 5.20 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 6.08 p.m.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Please.
12 Mr. Djurdjic.
13 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Can we look at D440.
15 Q. In your binder, this is in tab 13, General. This is a dispatch
16 from the public security station dated the 27th of March, 1999, signed by
17 the assistant to the minister, Major-General Stojan Misic. Can you
18 please tell us during the war exactly what your activities were
20 A. Amongst other things, I as assistant minister was tasked with
21 taking measures from the areas that I was covering to issue the relevant
22 instructions and directions to the Secretariats of Internal Affairs in
23 the field in order to implement certain decisions or regulations that had
24 to do with the state of war.
25 Q. Thank you. And can you explain to whom this dispatch was sent?
1 A. This dispatch was sent to the Federal Ministry
2 of Internal Affairs for information purposes because this is the
3 execution of a decision by a federal organ. It was also sent to all the
4 Secretariats of Internal Affairs, border control stations, the MUP HQ in
5 Pristina, and, for purposes of information, to the relevant
6 organisational units at the seat of the ministry, or rather, the
8 Q. Thank you. And can you please tell us what does this dispatch
9 deal with, what kind of problem?
10 A. Instructions are issued here to update the lists of foreigners
11 with permanent residence and foreigners with temporary residence and also
12 make all other preparations for the issuance of travel documents to military
13 conscripts and in that sense the secretariats are instructed as to the
14 measures they need to take in order to carry out this dispatch. Let me
15 just repeat: All the things that the minister tasked me with from my
16 area of work we would, in turn, instruct the parties in the field as to
17 how they should execute certain tasks pursuant to the instructions.
18 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we please look at 1D9 now.
19 D259, please.
20 Q. This is in tab 14, General, in your binder.
21 And we are looking at a dispatch from the public security station of the
22 9th of April, 1999, which is signed by assistant minister Major-General
23 Stojan Misic. I would like to ask you to whom this dispatch was sent?
24 A. It was sent to all the Secretariats of Internal Affairs, also to
25 the border police stations and the MUP staff in Pristina.
1 Q. Thank you. And could you please tell us what is the subject of
2 this dispatch?
3 A. The subject of this dispatch are the relevant decrees because
4 the federal government adopted the Decree on the restrictions on foreign
5 travel by military conscripts of the Yugoslav Army and the Decree on time
6 limits in court, administrative and misdemeanor procedures during the
7 state of war. And it also issued a decree implementing the Law on the
8 Transport of Hazardous Materials during the state of war. The Government
9 of the Republic of Serbia
10 by the president of the Republic of Serbia
11 assembly of citizens during the state of war during -- on the residence
12 of citizens during the war and the issuance of ID cards. I sent this
13 instruction in order for the regulations adopted by the federal
14 government and the decree issued by the president of the
15 Republic of Serbia
16 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at D261 now, on our
17 screens, please.
18 Q. This is in tab 15 in your binder, sir.
19 This is a dispatch by the public security department of the
20 19th of April, 1999, signed by assistant minister
21 Major-General Stojan Misic.
22 Can you please tell us to whom this dispatch was sent?
23 A. The dispatch was sent on the 19th of April, 1999, to all the
24 Secretariats for Internal Affairs in Serbia.
25 Q. Thank you. And what is the subject of this dispatch?
1 A. Its subject are administrative tasks, and I said before that I
2 was in charge of that area, amongst other things, and in view of the fact
3 that with the beginning of the NATO forces aggression on our country,
4 certain problems were caused regarding the residence of citizens and the
5 issue of personal ID cards. In the state of war, the manner of working
6 in these administrative assignments was being changed. We also said that
7 as far as the Law on Social Organisations and Citizens Associations was
8 concerned, adequate measures needed to be taken pursuant to the way in
9 which we formulated that in our dispatch.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we please now look at
12 Exhibit D447 on our screens.
13 Q. And this is tab 16 in your binder, General, sir.
14 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at the next page
15 please in both versions.
16 Q. This is a dispatch of the RJB of the 19th of -- of the
17 30th of April, 1999, signed by assistant minister
18 Major-General Stojan Misic. General, can you please tell us to whom the
19 dispatch was sent?
20 A. The dispatch was also sent to all the
21 Secretariats of Internal Affairs, the border police stations, the
22 MUP staff in Pristina. It was sent to the three administrations at the
23 seat, the operations centre also at the seat of the ministry.
24 Q. Thank you. And what is the subject of this dispatch?
25 A. We are here informing about how the General Staff and their
1 information centre established a new protocol for the war-time press
2 card, and we instruct that in future journalists cannot work without a
3 new working press card and permission to work accompanying the issuance
4 of that card.
5 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we please now look at D254.
6 Q. This is in tab 17 in your binder, sir. This is RJB dispatch of
7 the 4th of May, 1999, signed by assistant minister chief of the RJB,
8 Colonel-General Vlastimir Djordjevic.
9 Can you please tell us to whom this dispatch was sent?
10 A. The dispatch was sent to the Secretariats of Internal Affairs,
11 the MUP staff in Pristina, the border control stations, the police
12 administrations, the criminal police administration, traffic police
13 administration, border police administration, fire-fighting police
14 administration, and the operations centre.
15 Q. Thank you. And can you please tell us what the topic of this
16 dispatch is?
17 A. This dispatch deals with the experiences of the members of the Ministry in
18 numerous interventions in fire-fighting, redirecting transport, clearing
19 up of debris, and so on and so forth. In view of the experiences we
20 acquired in the process of this type of work, we said that in the future
21 additional measures needed to be taken in order to achieve even better
22 results. And in that sense we were instructing the secretariats about
23 what they would need to do.
24 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell us if you took part in the work
25 on this dispatch?
1 A. Yes. Together with my associate, I took part in the drafting of
2 this dispatch. Other administrations also participated because these are
3 several professional lines of work and what each professional line needed
4 to do in order to complete its job successfully. A number of
5 professional lines of work were covered, and that is why the chief of the
6 public security department, General Vlastimir Djordjevic, signed this
8 Q. Thank you. General, sir, we've looked at a number of dispatches
9 of this type, can you please tell me if the minister of Internal Affairs
10 was familiar with the contents of this type of dispatch, and if so, in
11 what way?
12 A. Since these are dispatches covering - if we are talking about
13 these particular ones - several lines of professional duties, and in view
14 of the seriousness as far as the direction of the services in its
15 execution of specific assignments, the dispatch would then be given
16 either to the assistant minister or several professional lines of work
17 covered, to the chief of the department. In that way, they would then
18 need to go to the minister so that the minister would agree that such a
19 dispatch would be sent out. These are dispatches of a more serious
20 nature, conditionally speaking, compared to those signed by
21 administrations discussing certain specific topics. This is the
22 establishment of organisational and functional preconditions, and that is
23 why the top leadership of the ministry would need to sign that with the
24 prior permission of the minister.
25 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, General, for
2 Your Honours, thank you very much. I have completed my
4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Djurdjic.
5 Ms. Kravetz, we've heard that the witness has had surgery in
6 recent times. That causes us to ask whether you think you can be
7 confident to complete cross-examination, if it commenced tomorrow, in the
8 course of tomorrow's session?
9 MS. KRAVETZ: Yes, Your Honour. If I commence tomorrow, I'm
10 almost certain I'll complete tomorrow. I'll stick to that.
11 JUDGE PARKER: And that would allow a little time for
13 MS. KRAVETZ: That should, Your Honour. I don't want to commit
14 myself to too much, but that should.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Well, we keep pushing you, you see.
16 MS. KRAVETZ: No problem.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic, you heard the thrust of that. If we
18 would sit if it was necessary to finish the evidence of the witness by
19 tomorrow evening, but it seems probable that we can conclude the evidence
20 tomorrow even though we adjourn now, and that would be in the interests,
21 we assess, of the witness, to minimise the strain on him. That being so,
22 we would propose to adjourn now, even though it's just over half an hour
23 early, to continue tomorrow at 2.15 with a view to concluding the
24 evidence of the witness in the course of tomorrow afternoon's session.
25 You have followed that, I suspect, General. We will adjourn
1 early tonight rather than start a completely different aspect of your
2 evidence which is cross-examination. We propose to continue tomorrow at
3 2.15. Counsel indicate that we should expect to finish your evidence
4 tomorrow. So we will take that course.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE PARKER: And we will adjourn now until 2.15 tomorrow.
7 [The witness stands down]
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.27 p.m.
9 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 28th day of
10 April, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.