1. 1 DAY 4 Monday, 2nd February 1998

    2 (9.15 am)

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. May I ask the

    4 Registrar to call the case number, please?

    5 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-95-13a.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    7 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honours please, my name

    8 is Niemann and I appear with my colleagues,

    9 Mr. Williamson, Ms. Sutherland, Mr. Waespi and Mr. Vos.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: The Defence?

    11 MR. FILA: Good morning, your Honours. I am

    12 Toma Fila. I appear with Ms. Lopicic and Mr. Petkovic

    13 representing the defendant, Mr. Dokmanovic.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. May I ask

    15 Mr. Dokmanovic if he can hear me. Thank you.

    16 All right. Before we call the first witness,

    17 I would like to suggest that we should deal with a few

    18 legal housekeeping matters.

    19 First of all, the court is grateful to the

    20 Prosecutor for submitting two documents. One is the

    21 list of witnesses, and the other one are the two

    22 documents concerning the agreement about the evacuation

    23 of Ilok.

    24 Now, as for the first document, we have seen

    25 that the Prosecutor kindly set out also the estimated

  2. 1 length of examination of each witness. I wonder whether

    2 those rough estimates of the length of the examination

    3 of each witness includes the cross-examination? I would

    4 say so, judging from your calculation of the time.

    5 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, these are, yes,

    6 as you have indicated, very rough estimates, but we

    7 believed that this would encompass both the

    8 examination-in-chief and the cross-examination.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    10 Now, the court is wondering whether we could

    11 try to reduce the length of examination for some

    12 witnesses who might appear to be less important, and we

    13 would like to make a few suggestions concerning

    14 particularly, I think, seven witnesses.

    15 We were wondering whether, for witness

    16 number 1 -- I am thinking, of course, by the way, of

    17 the list which is at the back of the documents

    18 submitted by the Prosecutor, the confidential document

    19 submitted on 29th January, and I will indicate the

    20 various witnesses only by their number, so as to avoid

    21 any confusion or any disclosure of names of protected

    22 witnesses.

    23 Now, our suggestions would be as follows:

    24 now, could we reduce for witness 1 the possible length

    25 of examination from two and a half hours to two hours?

  3. 1 Do you think this is feasible? Shall I first of all

    2 maybe go through the various witnesses and then you

    3 tell me whether it is acceptable.

    4 Witness number 2, can we go down from two

    5 hours to one and a half hours; number 3, reduce from

    6 two hours to one hour; number 4, instead of an hour and

    7 a half, one hour; number 6, instead of two hours, one

    8 hour; number 9, one hour instead of two; number 10, one

    9 hour instead of two.

    10 Of course, I appreciate that it is rather

    11 difficult for the Prosecutor to make any promise, but

    12 this we are indicating as a sort of goal which we

    13 should try to achieve in the interest of a fair and

    14 expeditious trial, so I wonder whether we could make an

    15 effort so as to reduce the length of

    16 examination-in-chief and cross-examination of these

    17 seven witnesses, so that because in this case we could

    18 gain about five and a half hours this week, and we

    19 would be able to maybe call three more witnesses.

    20 The Prosecutor, yes?

    21 MR. NIEMANN: Does your Honour wish me to

    22 respond now to that?

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, please.

    24 MR. NIEMANN: Well, it is very difficult to

    25 reduce these periods of time. I mean, this is a good

  4. 1 faith estimate of time. The first witness is important

    2 because that witness covers a broad spectrum of events

    3 which is introductory and substantive leading through

    4 to setting the scene and then leading to the

    5 substantive events.

    6 Witness 10 probably will not even come so you

    7 have saved two hours there anyway and you have probably

    8 saved a great deal more because we will probably lose

    9 quite a few more witnesses as time goes.

    10 I will ask my colleague Mr. Williamson to

    11 speak to other witnesses, but it seems to us, your

    12 Honours, that the witnesses will only testify to that

    13 which is relevant, and if there is something which is

    14 not relevant, then we will do our best to avoid that,

    15 but we are anxious not to have the witnesses go for an

    16 extensive period of time. We have done something

    17 unusual here. We have attempted to calculate

    18 cross-examination time, which is in a sense

    19 presumptuous on our part, but we tried to give the

    20 court an overall estimate of the period of time we

    21 would take. We have, of course, no control over

    22 cross-examination. I will ask Mr. Williamson to speak to

    23 the other issues.

    24 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, as you

    25 indicated early on, this is a very rough estimate. It

  5. 1 is our belief that some of the witnesses that appear on

    2 the list may actually be less than the time indicated,

    3 some may be more. But as Mr. Niemann has said, we have

    4 made a good faith effort to condense it as much as

    5 possible. I think that we are presenting a very

    6 efficient, concise case in this matter, and even if we

    7 stick to the schedule that we are, this case will move

    8 along much faster than any of the other cases that have

    9 been heard before the court thus far.

    10 In relation to the other specific witnesses

    11 you mentioned, number 2, number 3 and number 4 all

    12 relate to events at the hospital. Again, they are

    13 setting the stage for what occurs later on, and we feel

    14 that their testimony is important in establishing some

    15 of the other elements that we are required to prove in

    16 terms of the classification of victims, the armed

    17 conflict, the nature of the conflict, and in fact,

    18 address some of the issues which have been denied by

    19 the Defence in terms of their points denied in the

    20 indictment.

    21 We feel that it is our obligation to prove

    22 every point that they have denied, and they have

    23 provided a very thorough listing of basically

    24 everything that they have denied in the indictment, and

    25 it is our obligation to prove this. Since we bear the

  6. 1 burden we feel like we have to do it in the best way we

    2 can.

    3 We will make every effort to keep these

    4 witnesses as short as possible and to the point, but

    5 I think you will find that as we move along that many

    6 of them will be shorter than the times that we have

    7 anticipated, but some of them may be longer. On that

    8 issue, witness number 9, which we had previously

    9 indicated for two hours, we believe may actually be

    10 longer than that because this was based on what we have

    11 in terms of witness statements for each of these

    12 persons. As witnesses arrive here and we have an

    13 opportunity to sit down and talk with the witnesses,

    14 some of them are able to see for the first time video

    15 material that we have or documents that we have. We

    16 find that they have other information which we were not

    17 anticipating them having to testify about.

    18 In the case of witness 9, there will be some

    19 video footage that we had no intention of offering, but

    20 after he has seen this we believe that it is relevant,

    21 that it helps to clarify his testimony, and that it

    22 will help the court to have a clear picture of what is

    23 going on.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    25 MR. WILLIAMSON: I am sorry, just a moment,

  7. 1 your Honour. (Pause).

    2 MR. NIEMANN: One possibility, your Honours,

    3 that occurred to me while we were discussing this

    4 matter is if we were to tender the statements as

    5 evidence in the proceedings that may assist in reducing

    6 the time, so if the Defence has no objection to them

    7 being tendered as evidence in the proceedings, some

    8 introductory material can be eliminated.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: This would apply to how many

    10 witnesses?

    11 MR. NIEMANN: We could tender all the

    12 statements as we go through and we could possibly

    13 reduce it that way, but it, of course, is entirely

    14 a matter for the Defence.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes? Defence?

    16 MR. FILA: Your Honour, may I first say that,

    17 referring to the evidence mentioned by the Prosecutor,

    18 a part refers to the operations of the JNA, about the

    19 hospital and other things. These matters are not

    20 directly linked to Dokmanovic, so I do not even know if

    21 there will be any cross-examination. If any, it will be

    22 reduced to one or two questions. What we are interested

    23 in are witnesses 12 and 13, and for them I will need

    24 a little more time.

    25 Secondly, the Defence is not denying the fact

  8. 1 that there was an armed conflict. What we are denying

    2 is that it was an international armed conflict. The

    3 Defence is not denying that the hospital was destroyed.

    4 The Defence has no intention of defending the JNA, but

    5 Slavko Dokmanovic. That is why I shall be as brief as

    6 possible and concise as possible and focus exclusively

    7 on Slavko Dokmanovic, who was not an officer or

    8 a reserve officer, who was in fact not a member of the

    9 army at all.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, but may I ask you

    11 about your position concerning the suggestion made

    12 a few minutes ago by the Prosecution, to the effect

    13 that the witness statements could be tendered as

    14 evidence? Of course, if you do not object. What is your

    15 position on this matter? The Prosecution witness

    16 statements would be provided to the court and be

    17 regarded as evidence.

    18 MR. FILA: I would prefer to hear those

    19 witnesses, only they could be more concise. Because in

    20 the statements there is nothing about Dokmanovic. They

    21 were taken before Dokmanovic was indicted and therefore

    22 we have to know whether they have any knowledge about

    23 him, whether that knowledge is positive or negative,

    24 because we will see that all those statements refer to

    25 JNA officers, if I am not mistaken, and at the time

  9. 1 Dokmanovic was not an indictee. It is before 1996.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: But if I understood the

    3 Prosecutor correctly, he meant to say that in this

    4 case, of course, the production of the witness

    5 statements as evidence would not mean that the

    6 witnesses are not heard by the court, simply that we

    7 could focus our questions on some specific questions,

    8 so of course, it goes without saying that we will have

    9 to call all these witnesses.

    10 MR. FILA: I apologise, your Honour.

    11 I apologise. I misunderstood. In that case I have no

    12 objection. I agree.

    13 MR. NIEMANN: I should like to say, your

    14 Honour, just in light of that, that our position is the

    15 same, in the sense that we do not want it in any way

    16 interpreted that because we are advancing the

    17 proposition that these statements could become

    18 evidence, that somehow or other that will mean, then,

    19 that the Defence or indeed the Prosecution will

    20 automatically be in a position of tendering statements

    21 without calling the witnesses as evidence, because

    22 I should foreshadow that we would object to statements

    23 being tendered in this way.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Thank you.

    25 Now, one last point relating to the list of

  10. 1 witnesses produced by the Prosecution is as follows;

    2 I think -- the court has not received statements made

    3 by four witnesses, so Witness K and three other

    4 witnesses. I wonder whether the -- I assume the

    5 Prosecution has already disclosed those statements to

    6 the Defence, but I wonder whether the court as well

    7 could receive a copy of those four statements.

    8 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I believe the

    9 statement of Witness K should have been tendered both

    10 to the court and to the Defence. I believe the Defence

    11 has this. We can double-check. In relation to the other

    12 witnesses, could you indicate which witnesses those

    13 were? I am sorry.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: This is Vladimir Veber,

    15 Katica Zara and Dragan Zera. These are the witnesses

    16 to be called in February.

    17 MR. WILLIAMSON: Yes, your Honour. In

    18 relation to those three witnesses, we have not taken

    19 statements from those persons, and we do not anticipate

    20 taking statements. These are relatives of persons who

    21 were killed at Ovcara. Their testimony will be

    22 relatively brief but we can certainly prepare a summary

    23 of the main theme of their testimony and provide that

    24 both to the Defence and the court in advance of them

    25 appearing.

  11. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Then I have

    2 a list of six witnesses to be called in February/March.

    3 Again, their statements have not been provided to the

    4 court. Shall I read out the names?

    5 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I believe

    6 I know which witnesses you are indicating. This would

    7 appear on the...

    8 The first witness which indicates,

    9 "February /March". Is that correct?

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.

    11 MR. WILLIAMSON: And then the four witnesses

    12 which are all marked with, "February /March", as the

    13 potential date of testimony.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, I think so, but to

    15 expedite matters I suggest to give both the Defence and

    16 the Prosecution a copy of my list as a tentative guide

    17 of the various witnesses for whom we do not have any

    18 statements, so -- otherwise we waste a lot of time.

    19 May I move on to a second problem, and here

    20 I turn to the Defence, and I wonder whether the Defence

    21 would object to the two documents produced by the

    22 Prosecution and concerning the evacuation of Ilok,

    23 being formally exhibited, thus becoming part of our

    24 record. The so-called agreement and the ultimatum.

    25 MR. FILA: Your Honour, I have not received

  12. 1 the statement of Witness K; just like you have not

    2 received it, I have not either. That is number one.

    3 Number two, as regards these two documents,

    4 and another twenty or so documents that I received from

    5 the Prosecutor this morning, that they should be

    6 considered exhibits, I fully agree with them, including

    7 those given to me by the Prosecutor this morning. They

    8 can be considered as evidence. I also agree that we are

    9 given a rough outline of what the witnesses would say.

    10 It is not necessary to have the statement in extenso.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Therefore, may

    12 I suggest that we now formally regard the -- as

    13 exhibits and we have to give a number -- the agreement

    14 to be found in the document filed by the Prosecution on

    15 29th January, this is the agreement concerning the

    16 evacuation of Ilok. This would be what number?

    17 THE REGISTRAR: We will mark it as

    18 Prosecution exhibit number 5.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Prosecution

    20 exhibit number 5. Then the so-called, "ultimatum", of

    21 28th September 1991 to be found in the same document.

    22 This would become Prosecution's exhibit number 6.

    23 May I now turn to the Prosecution and ask

    24 whether the Prosecution agrees to the meteorological

    25 report produced by the Defence?

  13. 1 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Good. So this can be again

    3 regarded as an exhibit.

    4 THE REGISTRAR: We will mark that as Defence

    5 exhibit number 1.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: Number 1. All right. Defence

    7 exhibit number 1. A few minor problems which, however,

    8 must be disposed of quickly before we move to our first

    9 witness. Now, again, I will turn to the -- to both

    10 parties, actually, because the question I would like to

    11 ask is about the 45 so-called, "minor Defence

    12 witnesses".

    13 You will remember that mention was made in

    14 our previous hearings of these so-called 45 minor

    15 Defence witnesses and at some stage I ask the two

    16 parties whether they could reach some sort of agreement

    17 on their statements, because I remember the Defence

    18 counsel had asked that all of them be heard through

    19 deposition, they are not prepared to come to court, so

    20 he insisted that deposition should be made for these

    21 statements and so at that stage I suggested to try to

    22 see whether they could reach some sort of an agreement.

    23 I wonder whether such agreement has been

    24 reached.

    25 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, we have had

  14. 1 discussions with the Defence, but basically, the

    2 position is not any different to what it was on the

    3 previous occasion when we were in court and that is

    4 that I do not think it is a case of deposition, it is

    5 a case of the Prosecution interviewing the witnesses

    6 and seeing whether there is any aspect of the evidence

    7 that we can agree to so that it may not be necessary to

    8 call the witness at all.

    9 The exercise of taking depositions is as

    10 difficult and costly as bringing the witnesses here to

    11 court, so we had agreed that we would endeavour to go

    12 to Belgrade and interview the 45 witnesses and see

    13 whether or not there is any points on which we can

    14 agree and if we can agree then we have no objection to

    15 some form of admission being formally tendered in the

    16 proceedings. If we cannot agree, then the issue then

    17 falls back to the witnesses being called before the

    18 proceedings in the ordinary way.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    20 MR. NIEMANN: It is our intention to endeavour

    21 to do this before the close of the Prosecution case or

    22 at least at the end of the Prosecution case.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    24 Now, as a last point, let me just give you

    25 the tentative schedule for the next three months, the

  15. 1 schedule of our hearings, because there have been,

    2 I think, some slight variations.

    3 Now you know, of course, that we are going to

    4 sit here until Wednesday of next week, so eight working

    5 days, but then we will resume our hearings in March and

    6 there will be hearings from 16th-20th March, so five

    7 working days. In April from 20th-29th of April, so

    8 eight working days, and then in May, from 18th-29th of

    9 May, ten working days.

    10 We will try to see whether we can get the

    11 courtroom for a few more days so that we can have, say,

    12 maybe one week, one more week either in April or May

    13 but this is rather difficult because of the present

    14 constraints, logistical constraints.

    15 All right. Now, we could probably now call

    16 the first witness.

    17 Before doing so, let me try to sum up one

    18 point which was argued this morning about the witness

    19 statements being tendered as evidence. I assume that

    20 the Prosecution meant to say that as the witness comes

    21 here then he may decide to tender the witness statement

    22 as evidence so that the examination and the

    23 cross-examination may focus on some specific points,

    24 and the court will not have to go into matters which

    25 are covered by the witness statement, so as -- so

  16. 1 therefore, the production of the witness statement as

    2 evidence will take place when -- if and when the

    3 witness comes here. Is it correct? This would be my

    4 understanding.

    5 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour. The course

    6 that I would propose would be to show the witness the

    7 statement and ask whether that is the signature which

    8 appears. Of course it is not in the language of the

    9 accused so the witness cannot say that yes, that is her

    10 statement because it will be inspect the English

    11 language, or his statement, but we would be seeking to

    12 tender the totality of the document as evidence so it

    13 would not be as though we are merely tendering part of

    14 it in relation to what the witness might say in the

    15 witness-box or otherwise. We would say that the whole

    16 of the statement becomes an exhibit and is evidence

    17 without restriction. On that basis, we would try and

    18 reduce the amount of time spent with the witness on

    19 what I might call, "introductory matters". If they are

    20 covered in the statement we can move directly into the

    21 pith and substance of the statement rather than dealing

    22 with the important, relevant, admissible preliminary

    23 matters, but avoid going through -- spending the time

    24 in court going through those issues.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You referred only

  17. 1 to those witnesses whom you intend to call.

    2 MR. NIEMANN: Yes.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. So not all the

    4 statements which have been produced to the court.

    5 MR. NIEMANN: No. Those ones will be called.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: And I see that the Defence

    7 council does not object to this procedure.

    8 MR. FILA: No, on the contrary. I just wish

    9 to be of assistance to Mr. Niemann. All those statements

    10 have already been translated into Serbo-Croatian so the

    11 witnesses can identify the translation as being the

    12 original, and that would solve the problem.

    13 Secondly, I have brought what you asked me to

    14 bring, so I should like to present it to you for your

    15 consideration. (Handed).

    16 These are documents related to the army, and

    17 I have also submitted the 74 Yugoslav constitution

    18 translated into English. I have given a copy to

    19 Mr. Niemann.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    21 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, we do not have

    22 a copy of those documents.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, there should be copies

    24 also. Do you have a copy for the Prosecution?

    25 MR. FILA: I apologise. I do not have a copy.

  18. 1 I just wanted you to have a look whether that is what

    2 you were expecting from me and if that is so, then

    3 I can make a copy. That is why I produced only one

    4 copy. I apologise, but I just wanted to check whether

    5 that is right.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: We can look during the

    7 coffee break and then we will let you know. Thank you.

    8 We could now call the first witness.

    9 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, just before I do

    10 that, there was a matter which did arise out of the

    11 previous occasion which, if I may clarify; your Honour

    12 has asked for a memorandum on two issues; the

    13 international armed conflict and on the issue of

    14 cumulative and alternative charging. That, of course,

    15 is not an issue in the proceedings as yet. It may well

    16 become so, but it is not. So if we were in the process

    17 of preparing a memorandum on this, I assume your

    18 Honours are not going to rule on it because it is not

    19 an issue, and it would be, in a sense, an extension of

    20 my opening address. That would be the way I assume we

    21 are to deal with it, because your Honours have not been

    22 asked to rule on it by either party yet.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: I did not understand what --

    24 so are you asking for an extension of the time limit?

    25 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour. Your Honour

  19. 1 asked for a memorandum on international armed conflict

    2 and one on cumulative charging. The parties are joined.

    3 There is no issue between the parties as such, so

    4 I would just clarify the basis upon which it is being

    5 made available. I assume it is being made available on

    6 the basis that it is an extension of my opening

    7 address.


    9 MR. NIEMANN: If that is the case, that is

    10 fine. We anticipate being in a position to provide that

    11 to your Honour as before at the end of this week, early

    12 next week.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. It will assist

    14 the court in assessing this matter's legal issues.

    15 Thank you.

    16 Right. So you may call the first witness.

    17 MR. NIEMANN: I call Vesna Bosanac.

    18 (Witness entered court)

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Could you please make the

    20 formal declaration?

    21 VESNA BOSANAC (sworn)

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Please be seated.

    23 Examined by MR. NIEMANN

    24 MR. NIEMANN: Are you a qualified medical

    25 practitioner?

  20. 1 A. I am.

    2 Q. And were you director of the Vukovar General

    3 Hospital and do you still have that position?

    4 A. I was.

    5 Q. And in particular, were you a director of

    6 that hospital in 1991?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. In particular, the latter part of 1991?

    9 A. Yes, I was director from 24th July until

    10 20th November 1991.

    11 Q. Dr. Bosanac, was the Vukovar hospital bombed

    12 during the course of the conflict in August, September,

    13 October and November of 1991?

    14 A. Yes. Several times, and on a daily basis.

    15 Q. And could you describe very briefly to the

    16 court the nature of the attack upon the hospital? What

    17 sort of weapons were used against the hospital?

    18 A. First, the shelling of the hospital occurred

    19 in August 1991 when, on 15th August a shell hit the

    20 management building. Also, shells fell on the main

    21 hospital building. The fire came from the other side of

    22 the Danube and the roof was targeted, so that the

    23 surgery wards had to be moved to lower floors and

    24 anti-atomic shelter provided.

    25 On 24th August was the first time when the

  21. 1 hospital was shelled from the air with aeroplanes, and

    2 as of 14th September it was shelled daily until

    3 17th November a total of some between 60 and 200

    4 projectiles of various kinds, shells and bombs were

    5 dropped on the hospital using various types of weapons.

    6 Q. I mean, who was firing upon the hospital?

    7 A. The fire came from positions held by the

    8 Yugoslav People's Army from the other bank of the

    9 Danube, from the Vojvodina side, also from the

    10 direction of Negoslavci and Borovo Selo. Vukovar was

    11 completely surrounded for three months, and there were

    12 cannon and tanks around the centre of the town

    13 belonging to the Yugoslav People's Army, JNA planes

    14 were also almost daily flying over the hospital and

    15 shelling the hospital and other buildings in the

    16 surroundings.

    17 Q. Do you know why Vukovar was being attacked by

    18 the JNA?

    19 A. In the 1991 war many towns were attacked.

    20 I do not know with certainty, but I assume that Vukovar

    21 was being attacked in order to gain control of it

    22 which, in fact, happened between 18th and 20th November

    23 1991.

    24 Q. Previous to this attack had Vukovar

    25 experienced hostilities and difficulties amongst the

  22. 1 population of that city?

    2 A. I worked in Vukovar for 17 years as a doctor.

    3 Vukovar is a small town in the south east of Croatia on

    4 the right bank of the Danube. Before the war it had

    5 a population of 45,000, and the entire region was

    6 inhabited by representatives of various ethnic groups.

    7 The 1991 elections, it emerged that there were 23

    8 ethnicities populating the area. The Croats constituted

    9 43 per cent, the Serbs 38 per cent. There were quite

    10 a large percentage of Yugoslavs, about 12 per cent.

    11 These were children of mixed marriages who declared

    12 their nationality as being Yugoslav, and there were

    13 representatives of other ethnic groups, Ruthenes,

    14 Hungarians, Ukrainians, Albanians in smaller

    15 percentages, therefore a large number of ethnic groups

    16 were represented.

    17 Q. You said a moment ago that the hospital which

    18 you were a director of was attacked. Was there any

    19 military installation or other reason that you know of

    20 why the hospital itself would have been attacked?

    21 A. No, there were never any military

    22 installations in the hospital. I think the hospital was

    23 attacked more than other parts of the city, though

    24 I can conclude from the fierce attacks, in spite of all

    25 the protests I made to protect the hospital, that it

  23. 1 was attacked because in the hospital, which was

    2 operational, everyone, both the police and the army and

    3 the people had support. There were doctors, there were

    4 nurses, and they could be sure that they would be

    5 helped should they be injured.

    6 Q. Did the hospital have any markings or other

    7 indicia on the hospital itself to indicate that it was

    8 in fact a hospital?

    9 A. Yes. On the old hospital building where the

    10 department for infectious lung diseases was situated,

    11 there was a large red cross and as we could not climb

    12 on to the roof of the new building, then on the lawn

    13 between the old and new building we spread out a large

    14 sheet, a white sheet with the red cross which was

    15 20 metres in diameter so it was clearly visible. But in

    16 spite of these signs, shells were falling in the garden

    17 and airforce shells as well.

    18 Q. You mentioned 24th August 1991. Was that an

    19 occasion when four JNA soldiers were brought into the

    20 hospital for treatment?

    21 A. Yes. There was a checkpoint of the Yugoslav

    22 People's Army between Borovo Naselje and Borovo Selo

    23 because troops were passing through town and personnel

    24 carriers, regularly, and they came across mines. Four

    25 soldiers were brought in, two of whom were lightly

  24. 1 injured, one was seriously injured and the other had

    2 very heavy burns all over his body from the explosion.

    3 They were admitted to the hospital that morning. They

    4 were given all necessary medical treatment in line with

    5 the principles of medicine and ethics.

    6 Q. And did the local captain of the JNA, Captain

    7 Ristic come to you or ring you and be requested that

    8 they be turned over to the JNA?

    9 A. He called me up by telephone and asked that

    10 the soldiers be brought to the barracks which was in

    11 the southern part of the city. I opposed this, and said

    12 it was not advisable. It was not in their interest.

    13 They were still receiving infusion, that they could be

    14 given proper treatment in the hospital and that it was

    15 not suitable for them to be transported or to be

    16 treated in the barracks.

    17 Q. Now, notwithstanding the medical advice that

    18 you gave Captain Ristic, did they insist upon him,

    19 these soldiers being taken out of your hospital and did

    20 that, in fact, occur?

    21 A. Yes, he insisted, but I said that I could not

    22 do it because there was absolutely no medical or

    23 ethical justification. However, about half an hour

    24 later the chief of police called me up and asked that

    25 we prepare the soldiers for evacuation indicating that

  25. 1 representatives of the Yugoslav army would come to pick

    2 them up.

    3 Q. And did ultimately those representatives come

    4 to pick them up? Those representatives of the Yugoslav

    5 army?

    6 A. Yes, shortly after that an armoured personnel

    7 carrier entered the hospital compound. I went out

    8 because I could not communicate with them because they

    9 were inside the carrier, so I knocked on the outside

    10 and the lid opened, an officer came out, and I asked

    11 why they had come into the hospital, and they said they

    12 had come to secure the evacuation of those soldiers.

    13 A van belonging to the Yugoslav army also came with

    14 a driver. They parked at the entrance to the hospital,

    15 and the soldiers who were lightly wounded entered the

    16 van whereas those who were more seriously wounded were

    17 put in an ambulance. I asked the driver where he was

    18 taking them. He said he did not know. He was just

    19 following orders. One of the more lightly wounded

    20 soldiers was from Vukovar and he did not want to go. He

    21 wanted to stay, but the driver had received orders to

    22 take them away and they did.

    23 One of our nurses called Janiza Janko. She

    24 went with the ambulance and when she came back she said

    25 she saw many people in the barracks, helicopters, TV

  26. 1 reporters, they were all waiting to evacuate the

    2 soldiers from Vukovar to Belgrade.

    3 Q. Now, once the -- well, firstly, do you know

    4 of any reason why it would have been necessary to come

    5 to the hospital with an armoured personnel carrier? Was

    6 there any military threat to the JNA when they came to

    7 your hospital, that you know of?

    8 A. No.

    9 Q. And after these men had been removed, did the

    10 shelling of your hospital continue or did it abate?

    11 A. It continued. The shelling continued.

    12 Actually, the first air-raid on the hospital took place

    13 after that, and the shelling continued every day and it

    14 was heavier and heavier.

    15 Q. Do you think -- do you know of any reason why

    16 the -- I will withdraw that.

    17 Did you complain to anyone about the fact

    18 that your hospital was being shelled or bombed?

    19 A. I complained every day and several times

    20 every day to many people.

    21 Q. Who did you complain to? Can you tell us?

    22 A. First, I complained in Zagreb to the Ministry

    23 of Health, then to the general headquarters of the

    24 Croatian army, and by telephone I got in touch with the

    25 general staff in Belgrade via Sarejevo. I also asked to

  27. 1 talk on the telephone to the then Prime Minister, Anto

    2 Markovic, but I did not manage to speak to him. I spoke

    3 to then military deputies of the Yugoslav army on the

    4 telephone and they did not believe what I was saying.

    5 They kept saying that it was impossible that the

    6 hospital was being bombed. Then when I realised that it

    7 was no use complaining to anyone and that no one could

    8 help me, then through the media in Slovenia I got the

    9 telephones and telefaxes of the International Red Cross

    10 in Geneva, of UNICEF and all other important

    11 politicians in Europe of the day, Mr. Carrington,

    12 Genscher, Van den Broek, and I wrote every day. I wrote

    13 protests and appeals and asked for assistance and

    14 I sent it to the Croatian office attached to the

    15 European Mission in the hotel in Zagreb and I asked

    16 them to send this further to all these other addresses.

    17 Q. And when you say, "the Europe Mission", you

    18 are speaking of the European Community Monitoring

    19 Mission. Is that right?

    20 A. Yes. At that time in the hotel, and in Zagreb

    21 there was a Monitoring Mission of the European

    22 Community. It was led by Georges Marie Chenu. He was

    23 head of this monitoring mission, and during the month

    24 of November, as far as I know, negotiations began on

    25 establishing a cease-fire in our territory.

  28. 1 Q. Now, just dealing with those protests you

    2 made, did you, apart from making telephone contact, did

    3 you also make contact by way of fax?

    4 A. Almost every day, or perhaps even twice a day

    5 I would describe the current situation in the hospital

    6 and in town and I sent telefaxes to the European

    7 Mission and asked them to translate this into English

    8 and to give these appeals of mine to all members of the

    9 European Mission. The telefax in the hospital was out

    10 of order because the office building was hit, so every

    11 day I either went to the defence headquarters of the

    12 town or to the police where the telefax was in

    13 operation and that is where I sent these telefaxes

    14 from.

    15 MR. NIEMANN: Would you look at these bundle

    16 of documents that I am now going to give you, please,

    17 and would you just look through them? (Handed).

    18 Perhaps a copy might be given to Mr. Fila.

    19 I think he has already had a copy, but he might need

    20 another one, and a copy for your Honours.

    21 Doctor, dealing with these documents as

    22 a bundle rather than as individual documents, can you

    23 just quickly look through the ones that I have now

    24 shown you, just to identify that they are the documents

    25 that you recognise? Very quickly. I think you have seen

  29. 1 them before.

    2 A. These are copies of the telefaxes that

    3 I wrote and sent to the Croatian office at the European

    4 Community Monitoring Mission from October 20th until

    5 15th or 16th November during that most difficult month

    6 when the hospital was bombed every day with an average

    7 of 100 projectiles.

    8 Q. And does your signature and writing appear on

    9 a number of these documents, especially where your name

    10 is typed, beneath or above that?

    11 A. Yes. These are communications that I wrote

    12 myself or my secretary wrote them and I would only sign

    13 them. And the documents that were translated into

    14 English were translated in the Croatian office by the

    15 European Mission. Also I sent certain messages by

    16 telephone and I asked them to write them down and to

    17 send them under my name. Not all the documents I sent

    18 are here, but quite a few are.

    19 MR. NIEMANN: Yes. I tender those. Might they

    20 be given the next number in order?

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: It is exhibit number...

    22 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number 7.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Number 7.

    24 MR. NIEMANN: Doctor, did you have to do

    25 anything with your patients in order to protect them

  30. 1 from this constant shelling that was happening to your

    2 hospital?

    3 A. We tried to protect our patients by putting

    4 the most difficult patients in the anti-aircraft

    5 shelter that was underground, four rooms underground.

    6 We had an intensive care unit for the most heavily

    7 wounded there, and after the operations, the surgeries

    8 that were carried out, they were taken to the

    9 anti-nuclear shelter because not a single shell could

    10 fall in there. So we had a room there and we also had

    11 a delivery room for mothers and their babies that were

    12 in incubators. We also had a large room for

    13 post-intensive treatment of the wounded, and also

    14 a smaller room where the children of the medical staff

    15 would spend the night and also nurses from time to time

    16 when they were getting some rest.

    17 We tried to use all the cellars to a maximum

    18 but they were not exactly safe, so sometimes a shell

    19 would fall into the cellar of the old building and even

    20 the patients were hit by shells. We had very many

    21 wounded people. That was the problem. Every day between

    22 16 and 92 wounded people were taken in.

    23 Q. On one occasion --

    24 A. During September we could evacuate the

    25 wounded so they could leave Vukovar, but starting from

  31. 1 1st October we could not evacuate anyone any more so

    2 there were more and more wounded. After treating them

    3 we would send them to civilian shelters. However, just

    4 before the occupation of Vukovar at the end of November

    5 the number of wounded people came to the figure of 450

    6 and it is certain that there was not even enough room

    7 for 200.

    8 Q. On one occasion around 4th October 1991, did

    9 two bombs hit the hospital, one exploding and the other

    10 one travelling down through the hospital building

    11 itself?

    12 A. These were two aircraft bombs that hit the

    13 hospital. I remember the explosion in surgery on the

    14 second floor of the hospital, and the entire hospital,

    15 the hallway, everything, was full of dust and gas and

    16 everyone panicked. The wounded, the patients, the

    17 staff. We thought that the hospital would go on fire

    18 because that had already happened several times, but

    19 then someone said that a bomb fell directly into the

    20 shelter. I went there and at the entrance to the

    21 shelter since a big bomb had fallen, I saw that it had

    22 fallen directly onto the bed where a patient was lying,

    23 by his feet. So this was an elderly man called Pero

    24 Vukasin. I heard that he is still alive, that he lives

    25 in Vukovar nowadays. So that bomb did not explode but

  32. 1 it penetrated the roof and all the floors. It came up

    2 to the very entrance to the shelter. The patient was

    3 lucky to have survived. He was lucky that it fell by

    4 his feet and everybody else was lucky because had that

    5 bomb exploded it is certain that the shelter would have

    6 exploded and that everybody would have been killed.

    7 MR. NIEMANN: Doctor, I would like you to now

    8 look at some photographs, if you would, for me, please.

    9 These copies have been made available to your Honours,

    10 to the court, and perhaps I can indicate it to the

    11 Registrar. It is the one entitled, "Vukovar hospital".

    12 Perhaps that could be shown to the witness. You should

    13 have that, I understand. (Handed). Thank you.

    14 Now, Dr. Bosanac -- perhaps you might assist

    15 Dr. Bosanac by setting it up on the overhead projector

    16 there.

    17 Doctor, what I would like to do is put those

    18 particular photographs on the projector that is beside

    19 you there and just dealing with them one by one, if you

    20 may go through and just comment on the various things

    21 that you may see. Point to them with your finger if you

    22 would, or with a pointer, so that we can see what you

    23 are talking about.

    24 Now, the photograph that you see there, the

    25 first photograph in the booklet, what is depicted there

  33. 1 and perhaps you might point as you talk.

    2 A. This main building is the new hospital

    3 building. This photograph was made now after the war,

    4 after the hospital was renewed.

    5 Q. So it has been rebuilt since 1991. That is

    6 what you are saying, is it?

    7 A. Yes. In 1992 it was renewed. The local

    8 authorities at that time had rebuilt the hospital,

    9 although not fully, but the roof of the central

    10 building has been rebuilt. This is the emergency ward,

    11 rehabilitation, and here --

    12 Q. I would like just -- just perhaps stopping

    13 you for a moment to know what the record indicates, you

    14 are pointing to the long building with the iron roof in

    15 the immediate foreground of the building directly in

    16 front of the hospital, the main hospital.

    17 Thank you, if you could go on.

    18 A. Yes. On this lawn was where the white flag

    19 with the red cross was. The white sheet, so that one

    20 could see that this was a hospital. On the left-hand

    21 side --

    22 Q. Just stopping you again, Doctor, I will need

    23 to indicate these places for the record.

    24 This is the green lawn section to the left

    25 end of the silver-roofed building, or iron-roofed

  34. 1 building first described in front of the hospital.

    2 Thank you Doctor, if you could continue,

    3 please.

    4 A. On the left-hand side, perhaps you can see

    5 this destroyed building. It is still destroyed,

    6 I think.

    7 Q. That is in the medium foreground of the

    8 photograph to the left-hand side of the photograph

    9 looking at the photograph. Yes, what is that building,

    10 Doctor?

    11 A. That was the building of the infectious

    12 diseases and test diseases ward and that is where there

    13 was a big red cross.

    14 Q. Thank you. Now could you turn to the next

    15 photograph, please, Doctor?

    16 A. Now, on this photograph one can also see the

    17 central building of the hospital. On the right-hand

    18 side is the entrance where the emergency reception room

    19 for the wounded was during the war. On the second floor

    20 was surgery, and that is where the hospital was first

    21 shot at on 15th August from the positions held in

    22 Vojvodina and then we moved surgery from the second

    23 floor to the first floor, where the gynaecology ward was

    24 before that, and soon afterwards, because of the

    25 constant shelling, we moved it to the cellar and to the

  35. 1 shelter. You can see here these sacks for protection --

    2 Q. I am sorry, this is in the immediate

    3 foreground to the right-hand side of the building,

    4 showing the building. Thank you.

    5 A. This is actually where the reception room for

    6 the surgery is, where operations were carried out, and

    7 then the wounded were taken through the cellar to the

    8 shelter and the shelter is precisely here, underneath

    9 this green lawn. That is a real anti-nuclear shelter

    10 with four big rooms and with bathroom and storage rooms

    11 for water, food, and medicine.

    12 Q. And the photograph -- the place on the

    13 photograph pointed to is on the left-hand side of the

    14 photograph, about two thirds of the way up the

    15 photograph, behind a very large tree that is shown

    16 there. Thank you Doctor, and moving now, I think, to

    17 the next photograph...

    18 A. Here we can also see the main building of the

    19 hospital. During those three months while the hospital

    20 was a constant target for shelling, all the medical

    21 services took place here in the basement, and this was

    22 the first floor where internal medicine was, and it is

    23 only the medical staff who slept there while the

    24 wounded were in the cellar and in the hallway, the

    25 central part of the building so there was less of

  36. 1 chance for them to get injured again.

    2 On the right-hand side up here, that is where

    3 a fire broke out. A shell fell and it was precisely on

    4 this window that the fire started but we managed to

    5 extinguish it.

    6 Q. Stopping there for a moment, this is the top

    7 right-hand side of the building as you see the

    8 building, looking at it. Thank you.

    9 Now, if we can go on to the next photograph?

    10 Is that looking at it again with the entranceway to the

    11 hospital where the wounded were brought in which is

    12 shown on the left-hand side?

    13 A. This is the other side now. The wounded were

    14 brought in this way, and then an empty vehicle would

    15 drive out this way.

    16 Q. Thank you. I think if we can move on to the

    17 next photograph --

    18 A. This is the opposite side of the hospital.

    19 The wounded were brought in here. They would be left

    20 here in front of the surgery and then the empty vehicle

    21 would leave on the other side. Also, you can see here

    22 the heating room. The door to the heating room. It is

    23 precisely at that place that the head of our heating

    24 station, Ivan Ragus was killed. He was getting into the

    25 room where he worked and that is precisely where

  37. 1 a shell hit him.

    2 Q. Thank you. And the next photograph? I think

    3 we have seen a similar one to that before. Is that

    4 right?

    5 A. Yes. That is the second one where the

    6 hospital is shown from the side of the entrance.

    7 Q. And the next photograph?

    8 A. This is the entrance to the hallway which is

    9 between the old and the new buildings, and this is

    10 exactly where the entrance to the anti-nuclear shelter

    11 is. It is behind this wall. The medical staff and the

    12 wounded and patients from the old building and the new

    13 building had access to it. Here, along the hallway

    14 there were also beds with patients with the wounded,

    15 and this is where they were also treated. On one

    16 occasion a shell, an armoured shell had hit the ground,

    17 and then hit this wall. So, it was impossible to pass

    18 this way and one patient was -- who was not really

    19 wounded, he was a tetraplegic from before the war and

    20 he was brought to the hospital because his family could

    21 not take care of him and we thought that he was killed.

    22 However, we managed to dig him out and to re-animate

    23 him. He survived all of that, and he is still

    24 recovering in Varazdinske Toplice near to the hospital.

    25 Q. Now, Doctor, when you are actually talking,

  38. 1 if you could just speak as much as you can into the

    2 microphone. I would be grateful.

    3 A. This photograph also shows the same corridor

    4 between the new and the old building, and the entrance

    5 into the nuclear shelter. That corridor now is empty

    6 but in 1991 it was packed full with the wounded.

    7 Q. The next photograph?

    8 A. This photograph shows the entrance to the

    9 surgery. This is the anteroom; however, during the

    10 aggression of 1991, this room was also used as

    11 a surgery.

    12 Q. Thank you.

    13 A. This is the door to my office. That was my

    14 office during the war.

    15 Q. And the final photograph, if you could turn

    16 it up, please? Oh no, I am sorry, the next photograph.

    17 A. This photograph shows one of the hallways in

    18 the hospital that was also used as rooms for patients

    19 because we put the beds so that they should be

    20 protected by walls without windows because shrapnel

    21 would often come through the windows, even whole

    22 shells.

    23 Q. The next photograph?

    24 A. Here you see the entrance to the admission,

    25 surgery admissions. This was the entrance. The wounded

  39. 1 were brought by car and then the cars would continue in

    2 that direction. This is how we had boarded-over the

    3 windows and covered them with sandbags. The windows of

    4 the surgery where the operations were carried out.

    5 Q. And the next photograph, please.

    6 A. Here you see an entrance to the hospital

    7 building from the Gunduliceva Street.

    8 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you. I tender those

    9 photographs, your Honours. It is next exhibit, in

    10 order, P8, I think it will be 8, I think.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Exhibit number 8?

    12 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Prosecution exhibit

    13 number 8.

    14 MR. NIEMANN: Dr. Bosanac, you said that

    15 negotiations continued at various levels in order to

    16 achieve some sort of cease-fire and in particular to

    17 achieve a cessation of the attack upon the hospital.

    18 When did those negotiations start in earnest, do you

    19 recall?

    20 A. I recall, because I learned of those

    21 negotiations from my conversations by telephone with

    22 the Health Minister, Professor Doctor Andrija Hebrang,

    23 and these negotiations began in earnest at the

    24 beginning of October when, as a result of those

    25 negotiations, a convoy was organised for the evacuation

  40. 1 of the wounded by the Medicine Sans Frontiers, the

    2 Doctors Without Borders organisation. This convey was

    3 to have reached Vukovar on 11th October to bring

    4 medicines and other medical equipment, and to take the

    5 first 100 wounded from the hospital and then to keep

    6 coming back again until all the wounded were evacuated.

    7 The convoy left Zagreb on 11th October but it was held

    8 up by the Yugoslav army in the barracks and it did not

    9 reach the hospital. The next convoy was organised on

    10 18th October and it did reach the hospital. However it

    11 did not bring any medicines at all, not a single pill,

    12 but it managed to evacuate 105 wounded in spite of

    13 difficulties which resulted in the trip from Vukovar to

    14 just behind Vinkovse took 13 hours and an elderly

    15 patient who was burned by a shell died during the

    16 journey.

    17 The negotiations were continued with

    18 intensity, and I received the first report that the

    19 hospital would be evacuated on 12th November. An

    20 agreement had been reached in Zagreb according to which

    21 the hospital would be neutralised and the evacuation

    22 would begin on November 18th at 8 am, organised by the

    23 International Red Cross, under the supervision of the

    24 European Monitors.

    25 MR. NIEMANN: Doctor, I will just ask you to

  41. 1 look at this document that I now show you and a copy is

    2 to be given to the Defence and to their Honours. Again,

    3 it is a document that I have made available to Mr. Fila.

    4 Your Honours, I apologise for the difficulty

    5 in reading the top section of it, but it is the only

    6 copy that we have and the only copy that survived, as

    7 far as I know, as far as this office is concerned.

    8 Dr. Bosanac, the document you are now looking

    9 at, do you recognise that document? Have you seen it

    10 before?

    11 A. Yes, I have. I have seen it. Actually,

    12 I talked on the telephone several times with Minister

    13 Hebrang to consult with him regarding the evacuation of

    14 the hospital and its neutralisation and I saw this

    15 document for the first time when I reached Zagreb after

    16 being exchanged.

    17 Q. And do you understand this to be the

    18 agreement that was entered into between the parties in

    19 relation to the evacuation of the Vukovar hospital?

    20 A. Yes. It is an agreement signed on behalf of

    21 Croatia by the Health Minister, Professor Andrija

    22 Hebrang on behalf of the Yugoslav People's Army by

    23 Andrija Raseta, and as the chairman of the European

    24 Mission, Georges Marie Chenu.

    25 Q. And do you recognise any of the signatures

  42. 1 that appear at the foot of that document?

    2 A. Yes, I do.

    3 Q. And can you tell us which signature you

    4 recognise and where that signature appears on the

    5 document? Perhaps you might like to put it on the

    6 overhead projector and point to it. That might be

    7 easier for you.

    8 A. This is -- I recognise this signature. It is

    9 the signature of our Minister, Dr. Hebrang.

    10 Q. It is not coming up on the screen, Doctor.

    11 I would ask that it be moved up further and if you

    12 could point to it?

    13 A. This is the signature of our Minister,

    14 Dr. Hebrang. In the middle is the signature of Mr. Chenu,

    15 and to the right is the signature of General Raseta.

    16 Q. And I take it that you are familiar with the

    17 signature of the Minister for Health of Croatia. Is

    18 that right?

    19 A. Yes. I know this for sure, but as for the

    20 other two, I heard that those were signatures of

    21 Andrija Raseta. I have not seen his signature. I know

    22 that he participated in the negotiations. I spoke to

    23 him several times on the telephone in the period

    24 between 16th and 18th November, and I know this to be

    25 Mr. Chenu's signature because after liberation I spoke

  43. 1 to him several times, as after being a member of the

    2 Monitors, he had a mandate as the Ambassador of France

    3 in Zagreb.

    4 MR. NIEMANN: Tender that, your Honour.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Exhibit number?

    6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number 9.

    7 MR. NIEMANN: Now, Dr. Bosanac, this agreement

    8 that was entered into in writing that you have just

    9 identified as exhibit 9; what happened in relation to

    10 that?

    11 A. According to that agreement of 18th November

    12 1991 at 8 o'clock in the morning, representatives of

    13 the European monitoring mission and two teams of the

    14 International Red Cross were due to arrive, one of them

    15 by car from Belgrade via Ilok, and the other one across

    16 the Danube from Vojvodina. That was the information

    17 I received. However, on 18th in the morning nothing

    18 happened. Nobody appeared. There were only minor

    19 attacks on the town. There were hardly any shells.

    20 I went to get water with some colleagues but I saw

    21 shells being fired from Vojvodina but far beyond the

    22 city, behind the front lines that were held at the time

    23 by the Yugoslav army. We were waiting and nothing

    24 happened.

    25 I call Minister Hebrang up, who said that

  44. 1 representatives of the International Red Cross had left

    2 Belgrade, that they were on their way. About 12 o'clock

    3 representatives of the European Monitors called up by

    4 telephone and said that they were on their way to

    5 Vukovar, that they were in the village of Negoslavci,

    6 and that they still could not come because they were

    7 not allowed to come by the Yugoslav People's Army.

    8 In the afternoon I called Zagreb up again,

    9 that is Minister Hebrang and he told me that the Red

    10 Cross had informed him that the teams were in Vukovar,

    11 but that they were occupied with the surrender of

    12 civilians and the Croatian army, and that they would

    13 not come to the hospital before the next day, that is

    14 19th, a Tuesday, at 8 o'clock, and we waited. We had

    15 prepared the wounded for evacuation. We made a list

    16 where people were going. Those who were on extensions,

    17 there were many heavily wounded, they were in plaster

    18 casts, and we had to prepare them for evacuation so we

    19 engaged in last-minute preparation to begin the

    20 evacuation the next day at last.

    21 The situation by then was very difficult.

    22 There was no medicine or food or water. Gangrene

    23 appeared in some cases and civilians started coming to

    24 the hospital from the surrounding shelters asking when

    25 they would be evacuated, how they could leave the town,

  45. 1 along which routes, so that those were the worst days

    2 we had.

    3 Q. And were the civilians armed when they came

    4 to the town?

    5 A. No. To the hospital?

    6 Q. Yes, I am sorry.

    7 A. No, no, they were not armed.

    8 Q. And were there any people, any soldiers armed

    9 at the hospital during this period, that you knew of?

    10 A. In that period the command of the defence

    11 appointed a group to control the security of the

    12 hospital. They had checkpoints outside the hospital,

    13 there were six per group. But in the hospital itself

    14 there were no weapons, and all the wounded when they

    15 were brought in to the hospital at the entrance that

    16 I showed you on the photograph, they were totally

    17 undressed. Their equipment was removed. A police

    18 inspector called Blanko Lugenda had this duty on behalf

    19 of the police to register the names of the wounded, to

    20 take their weapons and to take them back to the police.

    21 Q. And did you yourself introduce a policy to

    22 prevent weapons being brought into the hospital?

    23 A. Yes. That was strictly prohibited, and when

    24 soldiers came to visit their friends, they also had to

    25 leave their weapons at the entrance. There was

  46. 1 a policeman watching over those weapons, and when they

    2 completed the visit they would take their weapons and

    3 go away.

    4 Q. Now, Dr. Bosanac, you have spoken of the fact

    5 that the agreed date for the evacuation was to be

    6 18th November in the morning and you have said already

    7 that when that day came and that time came and passed,

    8 nothing had happened. Can you tell us now what happened

    9 after the -- the next thing to occur in relation to the

    10 proposed evacuation?

    11 A. The next day in the morning, again no one

    12 came at 8 o'clock, then again I called up the Minister,

    13 and he said that Red Cross teams and European Monitors

    14 were on the ground, that they expected the evacuation

    15 to begin. The Minister himself had gone to Slavonia to

    16 meet the convoy. I contacted several people including

    17 Minister Granic. I called up General Raseta in Zagreb

    18 several times that day to ask him for information. He

    19 told me that I should contact Mr. Mrksic who would know

    20 exactly how the evacuation would be organised. I could

    21 not understand why he did not know where he was, but

    22 Raseta told me not to worry. They would find me.

    23 The last time I spoke to Raseta, that was

    24 Tuesday morning, he told me that according to the

    25 information he had, the army had reached the bridge and

  47. 1 that the International Red Cross was there too, so

    2 I headed towards that bridge, accompanied by Marin

    3 Vidic, who was responsible for the evacuation of

    4 civilians and an employee of mine who spoke English.

    5 She could be used as an interpreter, so we reached the

    6 bridge, and we saw in the street called Priljavo

    7 between Vukovar and Borovo, many trucks with different

    8 troops that was collecting the civilians and loading

    9 them into these trucks.

    10 We reached the closest personnel carrier

    11 carrying soldiers who did not look like soldiers at all

    12 because they were wearing different uniforms, they were

    13 totally untidy, unshaven, and that was the first time

    14 that I really felt scared because this was the first

    15 time for me to see such soldiers. I asked for their

    16 commander. They were shouting things like, "are you

    17 Ustashas", and then one of them appeared as their

    18 commander and I asked him for the International Red

    19 Cross. He said he had no idea that his territory was as

    20 far as the bridge and that he was not going across the

    21 bridge, so we went back to the hospital and waited.

    22 I do not know exactly what time it was,

    23 12 o'clock, 12.30, a military vehicle arrived

    24 carrying soldiers to the hospital and I asked them as

    25 well whether they knew where the International Red

  48. 1 Cross was and one of the officers said that he did,

    2 that he had seen some vehicles with international

    3 plates in Negoslovske, so I asked him to take me to

    4 Negoslovske. I asked him where Mrksic was. Then he said

    5 he was in Negoslovske too, so I asked him to take me to

    6 Negoslovske, so I asked him to contact me and see how

    7 we could organise the evacuation. He agreed.

    8 I also asked him if he could ensure that the

    9 troops accompanying him should protect the hospital.

    10 People were afraid. There were a lot of civilians in

    11 there. There were no international representatives

    12 there, and indeed, he ordered the military policeman to

    13 guard the entrances to the hospital so I went to

    14 Negoslovske for the first time under his escort. I was

    15 taken to a civilian house. I later learned that it was

    16 probably one of the lawyers' houses, Armicic. An

    17 officer was upstairs and he introduced himself as Mile

    18 Mrksic. I said I was Vesna Bosanac from the Vukovar

    19 hospital and that and I had come for the purpose of

    20 evacuation.

    21 Q. You have mentioned Mile Mrksic a couple of

    22 times. What position did he have, as far as you were

    23 aware, at the time?

    24 A. At the time I had heard from General Raseta

    25 that he was in charge of the operations in Vukovar and

  49. 1 that he would contact me in connection with the

    2 evacuation. I spoke to him on the telephone once from

    3 the hospital, and he also introduced himself as being

    4 from Vukovar. I had not known him from before.

    5 Actually, I had only heard of him, but I did not know

    6 him personally.

    7 Q. Did you understand or know what rank he was?

    8 A. I did not know because I am not familiar with

    9 ranks anyway, very well. I do not know what rank he

    10 had, but later I heard, I think, that he was a colonel.

    11 Q. And did you understand him to be connected

    12 with or associated with the JNA?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Now you --

    15 A. He was commander for that area. Raseta told

    16 me that he was the most responsible for operations in

    17 Vukovar, and that he would be the one to assist us on

    18 the part of the Yugoslav People's Army regarding

    19 respect of the agreement on the evacuation of the

    20 hospital.

    21 Q. Now, you spoke -- you went to this place,

    22 this house that you said was the former house of

    23 a lawyer of the town. What happened then when you were

    24 there? Did you meet with Colonel Mrksic?

    25 A. Yes.

  50. 1 Q. And what did he say to you?

    2 A. He said that he was preparing the evacuation

    3 now, and that they still had not decided what route to

    4 take, whether via Sid or Adasevci. I protested because

    5 it was clearly stated in the agreement that the

    6 evacuation would go Lugert, Dogdanovcy, Marince, Luzte,

    7 where ambulances and buses were waiting to take over

    8 all the wounded, the personnel, all the people who were

    9 to be evacuated and I said that we must observe the

    10 provisions of the agreement signed in Zagreb.

    11 However, he said that that would be very

    12 difficult, that it was easy for Raseta to sign the

    13 agreement in Zagreb when he was not on the spot, but

    14 I insisted on the agreement because we had had problems

    15 before with the convoy that had followed the routes,

    16 and this was the fastest way to evacuate the wounded

    17 and the personnel from Vukovar.

    18 Eventually he agreed to follow the route as

    19 indicated in the agreement, but he said that certain

    20 positions needed to be regulated. He mentioned Zidizne.

    21 There were some military facilities there, near the

    22 village of Serice. This had to be de-mined first and

    23 then the next morning on the 20th the convoy would

    24 follow the route to Nustar. This is the conversation we

    25 had on Tuesday 19th in Negoslovske.

  51. 1 Q. Now, I take it, Doctor, that you did not have

    2 a copy of the agreement with you at the time. You were

    3 relying on what you had been told was in the agreement.

    4 Is that correct?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Now, what happened then?

    7 A. So we agreed that the next day at 8 o'clock

    8 the evacuation would begin. I asked whether I could

    9 meet with representatives of the Red Cross or the

    10 European Monitors, who had called me up on Monday from

    11 Negoslovske. He told me that they were busy with the

    12 registration of civilians at Velepromet. That was the

    13 first time I heard Velepromet mentioned. Then after

    14 that they would come to the hospital. I protested. They

    15 should come as soon as possible because there was no

    16 water or food or anything in the hospital so I went

    17 back again accompanied by the same officer, and also

    18 this person who went with me for interpretation

    19 purposes. I returned to the hospital about 3 o'clock on

    20 the same day, and I saw that some assistance had been

    21 brought with some water and some canned food. I saw

    22 military policemen guarding the entrance, but I also

    23 saw some of our employees who had joined the reserve

    24 force as volunteers, passing through the hospital,

    25 saying hello to some people.

  52. 1 The personnel and the wounded were very

    2 frightened because these reservists of the Yugoslav

    3 army started freely entering the hospital and there

    4 were no representatives of the Monitors or the

    5 International Red Cross.

    6 Q. Now, Doctor, you mentioned Negoslovske. That

    7 was under the control of the JNA at that stage, was it?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. And also Velepromet was under the control of

    10 the JNA?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. And the area around the hospital had just

    13 very recently surrendered. Is that correct?

    14 A. The area around the hospital, actually, was

    15 under the control of the Croatian police and the

    16 defence of the city, but throughout that week we had

    17 noticed that the number of troops was declining. They

    18 were going to the front, so that in effect the centre

    19 of the town was left without any military defences, so

    20 that the centre of the town was virtually under the

    21 control of the JNA without any major conflicts

    22 occurring and when the JNA entered the city centre, the

    23 area around the hospital where I was, this happened on

    24 the Tuesday 19th in the morning, whereas in the

    25 southern sections of the town, the fairgrounds,

  53. 1 mitnitsa, the JNA entered that part on Monday 18th, and

    2 that is why representatives of the International Red

    3 Cross and the European Monitors were there. They were

    4 held up there, and that is why they did not reach the

    5 centre where the hospital was.

    6 Q. And your understanding of the situation was

    7 that the International Committee of the Red Cross and

    8 the European Community Monitoring Mission people could

    9 not get through because of the JNA. It was not a case

    10 of them being busy with other matters. You understood

    11 the situation as that they could not get through. Is

    12 that correct?

    13 A. That is what they told me. I personally

    14 thought that they did not come because their mandate

    15 did not go that far. If they wanted to come they could

    16 have come into town to the centre, and to the hospital

    17 and I was certain then, and I am certain now that

    18 instead of three teams of Monitors and two teams of Red

    19 Cross people, if two or three hundred such teams had

    20 come directly to the centre of the town, had they come

    21 there and stayed there, that they would have prevented

    22 the Yugoslav army and the paramilitary units from

    23 committing the crimes they did after the war operations

    24 ceased in Vukovar.

    25 However, regrettably, there were very few of

  54. 1 them. They were taken around and manipulated by Major

    2 Sljivancanin and others from the army. We saw on

    3 cassette Cyrus Vance who was at the hospital on 20th.

    4 Slivancinin brought him in and showed him the hospital

    5 after the lightly wounded and the staff and everything

    6 else was already taken away and when I was already in

    7 detention.

    8 Q. Yes. We have moved on a bit, doctor. We will

    9 just go back slightly, if we can. You spoke in your

    10 evidence of coming back to the hospital after your

    11 meeting with Colonel Mrksic and you saw there that

    12 there were reservists and other JNA military around the

    13 hospital and people were very frightened at seeing

    14 this. What was the next thing to occur?

    15 A. After that, for the first time around 4 or

    16 5 pm that afternoon I saw Major Sljivancanin. He

    17 entered the hospital yard with a group of soldiers.

    18 I was sitting in the hospital with Vesna Zgonjanin who

    19 was the representative of the Red Cross and she took

    20 care of civilians in Vukovar. She said that there was

    21 panic upstairs when they started taking away civilians

    22 who had been brought to the hospital in the past two

    23 days and that they started separating the men from the

    24 women.

    25 I went there then because they were taken out

  55. 1 of the hospital through the other door on the opposite

    2 side of where I had worked and I really saw men being

    3 taken away in trucks through the door facing

    4 Gondovicovar Street and that is when I first saw this

    5 Major Sljivancanin. I saw that he was in command and

    6 I walked up to him and I asked him where they were

    7 taking these people because first it was agreed upon

    8 that the hospital would be evacuated on Wednesday and

    9 after that, buses would be sent for civilians.

    10 However, afterwards he said that they had to

    11 make records of the men, of the civilians, that they

    12 had to make lists of them and then they would be

    13 returned. This was Tuesday afternoon when they started

    14 taking civilians out of the hospital.

    15 Q. Now, you have been talking of civilians and

    16 men. You are talking about people who were actually in

    17 the hospital. Is that correct?

    18 A. I told you, these are people who started

    19 coming in as early as Monday, because the evacuation of

    20 the hospital was expected on Monday and then of

    21 civilians because the shooting had abated. There was no

    22 more shelling of the city so they were coming in from

    23 their own private shelters, cellars, et cetera, they

    24 were all coming to the hospital to find out when they

    25 would be evacuated and how so during those two days,

  56. 1 Monday and Tuesday, within the hospital compound I am

    2 not too sure how many people there were, but almost

    3 1,000, I think. They were there with suitcases, with

    4 shopping bags, they were sitting by their wives and

    5 their children waiting to be evacuated.

    6 Q. And with respect to Major Sljivancanin, did

    7 you ascertain with what organisation he was connected?

    8 A. He was also an officer of the Yugoslav army.

    9 I do not know exactly what you are referring to. I saw

    10 that he had a camouflaged uniform and that he had a cap

    11 like the one soldiers wear.

    12 Q. And what was the next thing to happen after

    13 that?

    14 A. They were taking those civilians away, so the

    15 hospital was getting rather empty, because although

    16 civilians were upstairs on the first floor and the

    17 basement, about 7 pm it was already dark, a truck came

    18 of the International Red Cross. Major Sljivancanin had

    19 brought in a gentleman, tall, blond. Later on I found

    20 out his name was Nikolas, a doctor, and a lady

    21 interpreter. They came to the hospital. They brought

    22 some medical equipment and medicines in the truck.

    23 I was already disappointed by that time, because they

    24 did not come all day and I said that we did not need

    25 medicines at that point, that we needed evacuation.

  57. 1 Then this Nikolas said that this was the earliest he

    2 could come, that he brought these medicines and he

    3 asked whether we were prepared to evacuate. He went

    4 through the entire hospital, and I said that we were

    5 prepared two days earlier.

    6 We made all the necessary lists, and every

    7 wounded person got a little white plastic bag in which

    8 the history of his illness was, all his documents, so

    9 we were only awaiting evacuation at that point. I was

    10 then disappointed in the International Red Cross

    11 because this Mr. Nikolas asked me, because we had

    12 prepared all of that and Major Sljivancanin brought him

    13 in, and whether he could come there the next day at

    14 all, whether he should be present during the

    15 evacuation.

    16 I had understood Minister Hebrang that the

    17 International Red Cross would neutralise the hospital

    18 and under their control the evacuation would take

    19 place. I said that it was not only necessary, but that

    20 it had to be so according to the agreement that was

    21 signed in Zagreb. He said that he would come in the

    22 morning on Wednesday.

    23 Q. Now, what happened then?

    24 A. Then they left again. I think they went to

    25 spend the night in Belgrade. Again, an officer came to

  58. 1 pick me up. I do not know his rank, again, I am not

    2 very good with ranks. He had an olive green uniform,

    3 not a camouflage uniform, a young-ish man. He came to

    4 my office and said that he had received orders to take

    5 me to Negoslovske. I got ready. I thought that Mrksic

    6 was calling me to come there again because evacuation

    7 was being prepared, and as I sat in a car with him and

    8 went with him to Negoslovske, I went to the same

    9 building and the same room but it was not Mrksic who

    10 was there any more but it was Sljivancanin so I saw him

    11 once again over there. Also a short man in uniform.

    12 I saw him later in the prison in Mitrovica and

    13 everybody addressed him as, "captain", but I do not

    14 know his name. I was surprised because I was

    15 expecting Mrksic and I was asked where Mrksic was and

    16 I was told that and he was at a different assignment

    17 and they asked me why I was asking and they said that

    18 I had already discussed it with him and then

    19 Sljivancanin started asking me questions about this,

    20 where the Croatian army was, where Jastreb was, where

    21 the policemen were.

    22 MR. NIEMANN: Dr. Bosanac, would you mind

    23 slowing down, please, because it is becoming very

    24 difficult to interpret what you are saying because you

    25 are speaking too fast.

  59. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Niemann, do you think

    2 that this is the appropriate time for a recess?

    3 MR. NIEMANN: By all means, your Honours.

    4 (A short break)

    5 MR. NIEMANN: Dr. Bosanac, before the morning

    6 tea adjournment you were telling their Honours that you

    7 were taken to a meeting with JNA officers and you had

    8 thought that you would be meeting up with Colonel

    9 Mrksic but in fact when you arrived there you were

    10 surprised to find that Colonel Mrksic was not there and

    11 indeed you were confronted by Major Sljivancanin. Now,

    12 picking up from that point what happened when you met

    13 with Major Sljivancanin on this occasion when you were

    14 taken there?

    15 A. Major Sljivancanin asked me whether I knew

    16 who Jastreb was and where he was and where the Croat

    17 soldiers were. I said that I did not know, that I was

    18 in charge of the hospital, and that I am in charge of

    19 preparing the evacuation of the wounded and of the

    20 staff. I saw Jastreb and the Croat soldiers for the

    21 last time a few days before that when I was preparing

    22 a telefax. He was angry and arrogant. He asked who

    23 killed his young boys, then, if there was no army

    24 there, his young boys who had come to Vukovar, and

    25 that -- and I said I was not a soldier and that I did

  60. 1 not bring anyone to come and kill people into Vukovar

    2 and to destroy Vukovar and I only was in charge of the

    3 hospital. That is what I told him.

    4 Then I was asked who I was in contact with in

    5 Zagreb. A captain threatened me, said that he had all

    6 my conversations recorded, and that they could do

    7 whatever necessary to indict me. I said that I am not

    8 worried about that, that I talked to a lot of people in

    9 Zagreb, primarily to the Minister of Health. They were

    10 bringing pressure to bear upon me so that I would say

    11 where the Croat soldiers were. I simply did not know

    12 who had left and when and how. I simply know that the

    13 wounded Croat soldiers who were in hospital, I knew

    14 them, and that was not a secret. We had kept these

    15 records. We treated all the wounded according to all

    16 the principles of medicine and ethics and I did not

    17 feel guilty at all. I was questioned there for about an

    18 hour, and then they told me that I would have to spend

    19 that night there in Negoslavci but I requested to be

    20 taken back to the hospital but they did not want to.

    21 A soldier escorted me from that house to the

    22 school in Negoslavci where I saw that was where

    23 a hospital was because I saw bedding all over the

    24 classrooms. They took me to a room where there were

    25 four beds. Those were sleeping quarters. We went

  61. 1 through a big room and we -- and heard -- and a small

    2 room so I sat there throughout the night and at 6 am

    3 the same soldier came to pick me up. He put me into

    4 a military Jeep. Marin Vidic was already sitting in

    5 this Jeep and then he brought me back to the hospital

    6 again to this office of mine which we call the crisis

    7 staff of the hospital, and a soldier came immediately

    8 who was armed. He had a rifle, and he sat there next to

    9 me all the time. He did not allow me to answer any --

    10 answer the telephone, any calls. He always answered the

    11 telephone and he did not let me make any telephone

    12 calls either. We sat that way until 7 and then

    13 Sljivancanin ordered me to convene a meeting of all the

    14 doctors and medical staff in the biggest room and that

    15 is when I sent the head nurse to organise this meeting.

    16 They all came to the plaster room as it was

    17 called before the war and it was surgery during the war

    18 and you saw it on the picture, and Major Sljivancanin

    19 was there and about five or six other people in

    20 uniform, olive green, and he said that they were

    21 doctors of the military medical academy and that as of

    22 then the hospital was under military administration,

    23 that I had no jurisdiction whatsoever any more and that

    24 the military academy would take over supervision over

    25 the hospital and then he told me that I could leave and

  62. 1 then this soldier escorted me back to my office and

    2 then I heard afterwards from the other people, from my

    3 medical staff, that he suggested that all of those who

    4 wanted to stay on and work in the hospital could stay

    5 on, and if not, that they would be allowed to evacuate.

    6 Q. Now, was this the 20th November, this all

    7 occurred, 1991?

    8 A. Yes. That was Wednesday, November 20th.

    9 Q. Now, after Major Sljivancanin had addressed

    10 all the staff in this way, what then occurred? What was

    11 the next thing that happened? You were taken back to

    12 your office and then what happened?

    13 A. Yes. And I spent some more time there, and

    14 then a young man, an officer, came, I do not know, and

    15 Marin Vidic was sitting next to me in this office and

    16 he said that he had orders to take us to negotiate,

    17 talk, to the international crisis staff with the Red

    18 Cross in order to carry out the evacuation. Then Vidic

    19 and I were escorted by the soldier, we were taken out

    20 of the hospital and I saw that a lot of the medical

    21 staff was already out there. They were all awaiting

    22 evacuation, and one of our office workers asked me,

    23 "where are you going, doctor?" I said, "I am going to

    24 reach agreement on the evacuation and I will be right

    25 back".

  63. 1 Then we were taken to the barracks at the

    2 fairgrounds into a room and we were told to wait there.

    3 They ordered a military policeman to stay with us and

    4 that no one should come in or go out and that we should

    5 wait there and that they would come and pick us up in

    6 about half an hour. We remained sitting there, however,

    7 no one came to pick us up throughout the afternoon,

    8 only some time around 6 in the evening this younger

    9 officer came and said that the orders had changed, that

    10 the evacuation was already carried out and that we had

    11 to stay on there further. We were taken to a big room

    12 that was actually the sleeping quarters. It was quite

    13 empty, the room. I sat on one bed, Marin Vidic sat on

    14 another bed. Again there was a military policeman in

    15 there who guarded us. Then around 10 o'clock in the

    16 evening they came to pick me up only, so Marin

    17 remained, and I was taken away.

    18 First they took me to the basement to a room

    19 where there were a few JNA soldiers. There was a camera

    20 there too, also a woman in uniform. They questioned me,

    21 who I was, what I was, whether I wanted to give

    22 a statement for their military records. I said that

    23 I was willing to do so, and I gave a brief statement as

    24 to the things that had happened during the war, and

    25 then they took me to the exit, and a black police

  64. 1 vehicle was there. They opened the back door. I walked

    2 in, in the vehicle was Doctor Njavro in white uniform

    3 and a technician who was sent from Zagreb to help us.

    4 His name was Ante Aric. They were already sitting in

    5 this vehicle. Then I got into the vehicle. Then they

    6 locked this police vehicle, and we drove off, and then

    7 I heard from Doctor Nejarvo that he had spent the

    8 entire day in the hospital and that in the evening they

    9 put him into that vehicle, and then they were driving

    10 us along.

    11 I saw through the small window in front that

    12 they were driving us along the highway towards

    13 Belgrade. We came to the entrance of some barracks.

    14 I was knocking there because I wanted to go to the

    15 toilet and to ask where they were taking us. However,

    16 they would not open the door at all.

    17 Then I saw that they brought us to Mitrovica.

    18 At first they stopped at the police station and there

    19 they asked -- and then they brought us to the prison in

    20 Sremska Mitrovica. That was on 21st, Thursday, in the

    21 morning, around 3 am.

    22 Q. Now, during all this period, had you seen

    23 what had happened to the patients at the hospital,

    24 where they were taken? Did you observe any of that, or

    25 as a result of you being put into custody did you not

  65. 1 see?

    2 A. No, I did not see anything. I only heard from

    3 Dr. Nejarvo because he stayed in the hospital that

    4 everybody was taken away. The staff, the wounded, only

    5 50 of the most heavily wounded people stayed on with

    6 a nurse and technician.

    7 Q. Now, where is Mitrovica?

    8 A. Mitrovica is about 40 kilometres away from

    9 Vukovar. It is in the territory of Yugoslavia on the

    10 road towards Belgrade.

    11 Q. And how far from Belgrade is it?

    12 A. Vukovar is about 150 kilometres away from

    13 Belgrade and Mitrovica about 110, I think.

    14 Q. How long were you kept in Mitrovica?

    15 A. They kept me in Mitrovica until 11th

    16 December, and they questioned me there. I wrote

    17 a statement, a Colonel Branko, I never found out what

    18 his last name was, interrogated me. I wrote a statement

    19 there on 112 pages about the entire situation in

    20 Vukovar before the war, during the war, whom I had met,

    21 whom I knew, 112 pages of a statement. That is what

    22 I wrote. I did not even finish the statement when they

    23 called me to be exchanged. They called on the 11th

    24 December and they said I would be exchanged, but they

    25 did not release me immediately. I stayed in a military

  66. 1 prison in Belgrade for two more days because they

    2 wanted to decide whether I would be indicted or not.

    3 I had an interrogation there. I was

    4 questioned, because they even gave me a defence

    5 attorney, but they decided not to bring charges against

    6 me and they allowed me to be exchanged. I was exchanged

    7 on 13th December 1991.

    8 Q. And what were you to be charged with? Did you

    9 ever know that or find that out?

    10 A. Charges were never brought against me, but

    11 during this conversation they told me that I would be

    12 indicted because of these telefaxes and protests,

    13 because I invariably wrote that the Yugoslav People's

    14 Army was the aggressor, that it was killing people and

    15 destroying the town, et cetera.

    16 Q. Dr. Bosanac, did you lose any of your

    17 relatives during the conflict in Vukovar?

    18 A. Yes. My father-in-law, my husband's father

    19 was also imprisoned on 20th November. He was taken out

    20 of the hospital together with the wounded and the

    21 staff, and he was considered missing until May this

    22 year when his body was identified at the Ovcara graves.

    23 And the nephew of my husband, Tomislav, he was in

    24 hospital too and he was also missing and also

    25 a nurse was heavily wounded. Her kidney and her

  67. 1 backbone. She had sustained bad injuries. He stayed with

    2 her and he asked whether he could be evacuated with

    3 her, and whether he could stay with her and I asked

    4 Major Sljivancanin if relatives could stay with these

    5 most heavily wounded people and he said that it was all

    6 right.

    7 However, that morning I heard from my

    8 mother-in-law that a soldier came into the hospital and

    9 he said that all of those people who could walk should

    10 get out, and then my father-in-law got out, and

    11 Tomica got out and all the people who went out were put

    12 on these buses which were ultimately taken to Ovcara.

    13 So, Tomica, who was the nephew of my husband, was also

    14 identified at the grave site in Ovcara.

    15 Q. Dr. Bosanac, I would like you, please, to look

    16 very shortly at a very brief video that is now going to

    17 be shown to you on the screen in front of you, and it

    18 will only run for a couple of seconds, so it will not

    19 be for long, but I would ask you to point out things on

    20 the screen that you may recognise, once this video has

    21 been played.

    22 Can we -- it is in front of you, Doctor,

    23 immediately in front of you. You will just have to

    24 explain it because if you point to it with a pen on the

    25 screen it will not come up, but if you could just

  68. 1 explain it to us as you see it, and if we need to go

    2 back we can do it because it will not run for long, but

    3 might it now be played? The video of the Vukovar

    4 hospital.

    5 (Video played)

    6 A. You can see on the ceiling where the air bomb

    7 went through.

    8 Q. That hole that we just saw, rather than go

    9 back to it, that is where the air bomb went through and

    10 landed on the person's bed. Is that right?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Okay, if we just play on for a little moment

    13 longer...

    14 A. Yes. These are patients who were lying all

    15 over the hallway and in all the halls.

    16 Q. Doctor, do you recognise this as a video that

    17 was taken contemporaneous with the attack on Vukovar?

    18 A. Yes. Yes. This is Dr. Nejarvo who is operating

    19 on the wounded. On 20th November 180 heavily-wounded

    20 people were prepared for evacuation at the hospital and

    21 200 people who were lightly wounded patients, we

    22 included also family members, so it made up a total of

    23 450. These are nurses that are taking new-born babies

    24 out but this is in the shelter. This is one of the

    25 rooms that was one of the intensive care units.

  69. 1 Q. Yes, I think that is sufficient, thank you.

    2 Dr. Bosanac, I now ask you, if you would, to

    3 look at the document that I now show you. While that is

    4 being made available to be presented to you, Doctor, do

    5 you recall giving an interview to an investigator from

    6 the International Tribunal on 19th-20th June 1995 and

    7 from 21st-23rd July 1995?

    8 A. I recall that.

    9 Q. And Doctor, was that an interview that was

    10 conducted with the assistance and aid of an

    11 interpreter?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Doctor, were you asked questions and did you

    14 provide answers and was the statement, so far as you

    15 were aware, taken down in the English language?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Doctor, following the taking of this

    18 statement, was the contents of the document read over

    19 to you by an interpreter and did she tell you what the

    20 contents of the documents were?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. And did you then, upon hearing what she told

    23 you, inform her that what she had informed you of was

    24 correct so far as you knew?

    25 A. Yes.

  70. 1 Q. Doctor, were you then requested to affix your

    2 signature to the foot of each page of this document?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. And just looking through the document at

    5 every page of that document do you see your signature

    6 appearing there?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 MR. NIEMANN: I ask that this document be

    9 tendered, but I ask that it be maintained under seal

    10 because it contains information and which may relate --

    11 may be connected to other witnesses.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Any objection from the

    13 Defence?

    14 MR. FILA: No. Thank you, no objections.

    15 THE REGISTRAR: Marked as Prosecution

    16 exhibit number 10.

    17 MR. NIEMANN: I have no further questions.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Fila?

    19 Cross-examined by MR. FILA

    20 MR. FILA: Your Honour.

    21 In your statement, Madam Doctor, you

    22 mentioned the name of Van Ragus as having been killed

    23 in the boiler room, I think you said. Do you know

    24 whether his father's name is Antonio?

    25 A. I do not know his father's name.

  71. 1 Q. But his name is Van Ragus, but was he born

    2 in 1955, roughly?

    3 A. It could be. I am not quite sure of the year

    4 of his birth.

    5 Q. Well, of course, one could not expect you to

    6 be sure.

    7 I should like to draw the attention of the

    8 court to an interesting point. On the list of persons

    9 for which the Prosecutor says that they are missing and

    10 that were killed in Ovcara, this name appears, Ivan

    11 Ragus, so it would be, perhaps, advisable for the

    12 Prosecution to investigate this because he could not

    13 get killed twice.

    14 A. Ivan Ragus is a frequent name.

    15 Q. Please do not take this personally. I do not

    16 doubt it. We are all doing our work.

    17 There were many people that were missing on

    18 all sides. The terrible thing about it is that they are

    19 missing.

    20 When did you become director of the hospital?

    21 A. On 24th July 1991.

    22 Q. Why did the previous director leave, or was

    23 he dismissed?

    24 A. Doctor Rade Popovic resigned.

    25 Q. Was he a Serb?

  72. 1 A. No, he was a Montenegrin.

    2 Q. Did he leave or did he stay?

    3 A. No, he stayed.

    4 Q. Why did he resign?

    5 A. It is difficult to say. You should ask him.

    6 Q. Were other Serbs replaced, for example, in

    7 the ophthalmology department?

    8 A. No.

    9 Q. Well, who was director of the ophthalmology

    10 department?

    11 A. Dr. Milam Legenociv.

    12 Q. What is he?

    13 A. He is a Serb.

    14 Q. Was he replaced in the course of 1991?

    15 A. Yes, he was.

    16 Q. When Dr. Striber became head of the

    17 department, who was still specialising.

    18 A. May I answer this question?

    19 Q. Yes, of course.

    20 A. She was appointed in May.

    21 Q. No, not in May.

    22 A. That is what she said. Let me answer your

    23 question.

    24 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, might I just

    25 suggest that it would really assist a great deal from

  73. 1 this side of the room, at least, if the question could

    2 be asked, could be translated and then we could hear it

    3 because otherwise it does not make any sense in this

    4 part of the room.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Mr. Fila, please, can

    6 you slow down in your questions and wait for the

    7 translation. Thank you.

    8 MR. FILA: My question was -- I must not say

    9 the name. Let me withdraw the question.

    10 A. He was not dismissed.

    11 Q. But I must not mention the name of the

    12 doctor.

    13 A. Yes, but Dr. Mladenovic left his position of

    14 his own free will and he was dismissed because he did

    15 not report to work for five days, and as there was no

    16 one else, Dr. Striber, who was working in that

    17 department, was appointed acting head of department.

    18 Q. The problem is -- I promise not to mention

    19 the name so I beg you not to mention it either -- there

    20 is a minor difference. It is not very important, but

    21 still, you stated that on 15th August, in your

    22 statement, that the administrative building was hit on

    23 15th August. Afterwards you said on 7th August. When

    24 was it hit?

    25 A. I think it was on 15th as far as I can

  74. 1 recall. It was a holiday. It was a religious holiday,

    2 and on 7th August was the day when the shelling of the

    3 hospital started, but the administrative building was

    4 hit on 15th.

    5 Q. Was there a JNA barracks in Vukovar?

    6 A. There was.

    7 Q. Even before these events?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Was it surrounded? Was its water supply cut

    10 off, the movement of soldiers prevented?

    11 A. I am not aware of that.

    12 Q. When you went to Negoslavci on two occasions,

    13 you mentioned in your statement that you noticed large

    14 quantities of troops on both sides of the road. Is that

    15 true?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Can you tell us, especially as you said that

    18 it was possible to see the separation line from the

    19 roof of the hospital, who held that area on the road

    20 from Negoslavci to Vukovar? About 10 kilometres, if

    21 I am not mistaken.

    22 A. When we set off on 19th at noon in the

    23 direction of Negoslavci, I was being driven in a car of

    24 the JNA, and throughout -- in the town I saw troops of

    25 the JNA. I saw soldiers on the way out towards

  75. 1 Negoslavci, military vehicles of the JNA, and troops of

    2 the JNA, and I also saw many civilians, paramilitary

    3 forces, as they were known. One such man entered

    4 a vehicle, the vehicle. He was full of hatred, he had

    5 a knife in his belt, and especially in Negoslavci I saw

    6 many military transporters and trucks belonging to the

    7 JNA.

    8 Q. Did you see who had civilian authority under

    9 control in Vukovar, that is while you were there?

    10 A. The representative, the highest

    11 representative of the civilian authorities was Maric,

    12 and who was responsible for Vukovar municipality. What

    13 was happening behind the front-lines held by the JNA

    14 I do not know.

    15 Q. So you are talking about Marin Vidic who was

    16 representative of the Croatian authorities?

    17 A. Yes. He was the representative of the

    18 Croatian authorities in Vukovar.

    19 Q. Did you meet any representative of any

    20 Serbian authorities? Was there any Serbian authority

    21 then?

    22 A. No. I did not. I am not aware that there was

    23 any.

    24 Q. In the period we are talking about, who

    25 actually executed authority? Was there military

  76. 1 authority, military control by the JNA or were there

    2 civilian authorities?

    3 A. During the aggression on Vukovar, during

    4 those three months of blockade, there was a crisis

    5 defence staff in the basement of the municipality, and

    6 the president was Marin Vidic, and there were others

    7 who were responsible for supply, for civil defence, for

    8 the fire brigade and so on. I was invited to several

    9 such meetings on behalf of the hospital.

    10 Q. And on the other side was the army and were

    11 there any civilian authorities?

    12 A. I do not know.

    13 Q. But you must know. Did you see any civilians

    14 there?

    15 A. No. I had contact with the military

    16 authorities on Tuesday and Wednesday and then I did not

    17 see any civilians. They were all in uniform.

    18 Q. That is precisely my question. The 18th/19th,

    19 the 20th.

    20 A. No, on the 18th the army had not entered the

    21 part where I was.

    22 Q. Very well, then the 19th and the 20th.

    23 Can I adduce from this that during these two

    24 or three days and generally when you were sending those

    25 faxes, you did not negotiate with any representative of

  77. 1 any kind of Serb authorities, but only with the JNA

    2 regarding the shelling, the evacuation, et cetera. Do

    3 you understand me?

    4 A. Never in Vukovar did we make a distinction

    5 between the Serbian and the Croatian authorities. In

    6 the crisis staff headed by Marin Vidic there were Serbs

    7 and among those who were killed at least a third were

    8 Serbs, but most of them stayed after the JNA entered,

    9 so I do not accept this Serbian civilian authorities.

    10 Q. That was precisely my question. Did any Serbs

    11 leave Vukovar before the beginning?

    12 A. Yes. I know that from the hospital staff.

    13 Quite a number of Serbs left the hospital, and they did

    14 not come to work. They were dismissed, and there were

    15 also Croats who did not come to work and were

    16 dismissed, so I know that until the end of the war, 320

    17 hospital staff remained. There were both Croats and

    18 Serbs and members of other ethnic groups. It was not

    19 just the Serbs that had left, but the Croats left as

    20 well and they were all dismissed. Those who stayed did

    21 their work following the principles of medicine and

    22 ethics.

    23 Q. My question is related to the town of Vukovar

    24 itself, not just the hospital.

    25 A. Yes. Many inhabitants left. Out of the 45,000

  78. 1 before the war, only 15,000 were left during the war,

    2 both Croats and Serbs and Ruthenes left some state

    3 behind because they did not want to leave their homes

    4 and town.

    5 Q. When Major Sljivancanin appeared, when you

    6 saw him, did he tell you -- you spoke about this

    7 conversation -- did he tell you who had liberated the

    8 town and who was taking over responsibility and control

    9 for the hospital? My precise question was, was it the

    10 JNA or someone else?

    11 A. In his statement on 20th at 7 o'clock,

    12 Sljivancanin clearly said that the Yugoslavia army had

    13 liberated the town and that the military medical

    14 academy was taking over control of the hospital.

    15 Q. Does that mean responsibility for the

    16 hospital as well?

    17 A. I assume, yes.

    18 Q. Where was the police station in relation to

    19 the hospital? How many metres away as the crow flies?

    20 Is it 50?

    21 A. Yes, it is in the next block. First there was

    22 the court and then the police station.

    23 Q. Was there any firing from the police station?

    24 A. No. I know for sure because I went there

    25 often to send faxes.

  79. 1 Q. Very well. There will be other witnesses.

    2 I am trying to be as brief as possible, your

    3 Honour.

    4 During the questioning last time, I wanted to

    5 know who was in charge of the hospital on the 20th. Was

    6 it Major Sljivancanin or somebody else?

    7 A. Major Sljivancanin.

    8 Q. Did he tell you what Mrksic's responsibility

    9 was? Did he tell you what his responsibility was?

    10 A. No.

    11 Q. Did Sljivancanin tell you that he was

    12 responsible for the evacuation of the hospital?

    13 A. No.

    14 Q. When you were interviewed you said that he

    15 said that.

    16 A. That is how I understood it, but your

    17 question now was whether he said that. What he said was

    18 that I had no further jurisdiction. I was given

    19 a military escort and removed.

    20 Q. So you understood that he was responsible.

    21 That is all that I wanted to hear.

    22 Throughout those negotiations, or let me ask

    23 you, do you know Dokmanovic?

    24 A. I know him by sight.

    25 Q. Do you see him here?

  80. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Did he appear anywhere? Did you see him at

    3 all during that period?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. When I am saying, "anywhere", I am implying

    6 Negoslavci, Vukovar or anywhere else in those critical

    7 days.

    8 A. No.

    9 Q. You said something that aroused my curiosity,

    10 that the civilians were removed from the hospital on

    11 the 19th as well. Who took them away and what happened

    12 to them?

    13 A. In the afternoon, Tuesday, 19th, civilians

    14 were taken out of the hospital, and taken to

    15 Velepromet. I saw them being taken out and that was the

    16 first time I saw Major Sljivancanin. I asked him where

    17 they were being taken. He said, "for registration".

    18 I asked why they were being separated, the men from

    19 women and children. He said they were taken for

    20 registration. I learned later that they were all taken

    21 to Velepromet.

    22 Q. Are there any people who were missing among

    23 them, do you know?

    24 A. Yes, there are.

    25 Q. Were any persons among them who ended up in

  81. 1 Ovcara?

    2 A. It is difficult to tell. Out of the 200

    3 bodies that were exhumed in Ovcara, so far 108 have

    4 been identified and all 108 were taken on 20th in the

    5 morning. We do not know whether any of those who have

    6 not been identified were taken a day earlier, but there

    7 are many -- several people who are missing and who were

    8 taken the previous day.

    9 Q. I apologise. I do not know -- I know that

    10 this is not pleasant for you, but I am trying to be as

    11 concise as possible.

    12 You mentioned that at the bridge an officer

    13 said to you, told you where the line of separation was,

    14 to the bridge, as far as the bridge, the Novisadkor?

    15 What was the purpose of this?

    16 A. I asked him where I could find the

    17 International Red Cross because I had been told they

    18 had got as far as the bridge and that afterwards they

    19 would come to the hospital. But he said to me, "I am

    20 not going any further than the bridge. It is my duty to

    21 go as far as the bridge, and others from Belgrade will

    22 go there".

    23 Q. So was your impression that the army had

    24 control of both sides?

    25 A. Though I did see some very disorderly

  82. 1 soldiers, but who were certainly not regular troops,

    2 but they were not civilians, either.

    3 Q. No, they were wearing reservist uniforms of

    4 various kinds. Were there any cases among your

    5 patients -- no, let me correct myself.

    6 Among the people who came to the hospital in

    7 those critical days, were there people who were fit and

    8 who had plaster put on their legs?

    9 A. I have been asked that question several times

    10 but I really have no information about that. As far as

    11 I know sick people were given plaster to immobilise.

    12 I am not aware of anyone who was healthy and who had

    13 a cast put on him.

    14 Q. You said that you tried to contact the Prime

    15 Minister, Ante Markovic. He is a Croat, is he not?

    16 A. I think so, yes. I do not know exactly.

    17 Q. Was anyone president of the presidency of the

    18 SFRY at that time, when Ante Markovic was the Prime

    19 Minister?

    20 A. I think that at the time of the aggression in

    21 Vukovar the president was not meeting any longer.

    22 Q. But the last president of the presidency was

    23 who? Stipe Mesic?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. And he was also a Croat?

  83. 1 A. Yes.

    2 MR. FILA: That would be all, your Honours.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    4 I have two questions. Dr. Bosanac, may I ask

    5 you two questions? 1) who prepared the list of the

    6 various civilians or wounded people in the hospital who

    7 were to be evacuated?

    8 A. A list of the wounded and the sick who were

    9 to be evacuated was written by Ms. Verica Graf who was

    10 the hospital administrator, and this list was prepared

    11 by the nurses and doctors of the various departments.

    12 That was a list of the patients who were lying in the

    13 hospital.

    14 However, quite a number of external patients

    15 were waiting for evacuation. People who came to be

    16 treated, to be -- for their bandages to be changed, and

    17 they only had on them their medical documents, their

    18 medical papers. The list of civilians who came to the

    19 hospital for evacuation was made by Ms. Dzelkas

    20 Gonjonin and Zvonko Bilic who were representatives of

    21 the International Red Cross. They made the list of

    22 civilians and handed them to Marin Vidic who was in

    23 charge of the evacuation of the civilians from the

    24 town.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: But afterwards, the

  84. 1 authorities in command of the hospital, did they

    2 prepare further lists of the basis of the lists of

    3 evacuees prepared by the hospital staff? Did they

    4 divide up the various people into different groups?

    5 A. As far as I know, they did not.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. My second

    7 question relates to the -- what you a few minutes ago

    8 defined, "disorderly soldiers". I understand that you

    9 came across on various occasions people who were armed,

    10 and wore uniforms but were not members of the JNA;

    11 I wonder whether you could tell us what sort of people

    12 they were, whether they belonged to a particular

    13 paramilitary group, and whether they were under the

    14 control and the command of the JNA.

    15 A. I saw several such different groups. For

    16 example, on Tuesday in the afternoon, on 19th, a group

    17 of such people came into the hospital together with the

    18 son of one of our doctors, Dr. Ivankovic, and I heard of

    19 them that they called themselves, "the White Eagles".

    20 I also came across many people when I was taken to

    21 Negoslavci who were in civilian clothes with long hair

    22 and long beards. I heard that they were called,

    23 "Chetniks". I cannot say what groups they were, know

    24 who those people were, but in view of the overall

    25 situation, I can assert with responsibility that they

  85. 1 were under the control and protection of the Yugoslav

    2 People's Army.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. No other

    4 questions? I wonder whether there is any objection to

    5 the witness being released. (Pause).

    6 No objection. Any re-examination? No. Thank

    7 you. All right. Thank you, Dr. Bosanac. Thank you so

    8 much for coming. You may be released now.

    9 (The witness withdrew)

    10 MR. NIEMANN: My colleague Mr. Williamson will

    11 take the next witnesses, your Honours. Just before the

    12 witness comes, I am wondering if I might be excused at

    13 quarter to one. There is a matter I need to attend to.

    14 Mr. Williamson will be continuing on.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.

    16 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour.

    17 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honours, in relation to

    18 the next witness, this individual has requested

    19 protective measures, and she was one of the persons

    20 that testified in the Rule 61 hearing, so I believe

    21 that the orders that issued at that time are still in

    22 effect.

    23 Further on this issue, Mr. Fila and I have had

    24 discussions this morning along with our co-counsel and

    25 we have agreed to follow the same approach which has

  86. 1 been used in Blaskic and agreed upon in Aleksovski if

    2 it is acceptable to your Honours, that we will discuss

    3 protective measures between ourselves and if we can

    4 reach agreement we will notify the court. We have no

    5 intention at this time to present any anonymous

    6 witnesses, in other words, any witnesses who the

    7 Defence would be unaware of their identity, although

    8 there may be some witnesses who would be using

    9 pseudonyms so as to protect their identity from the

    10 public. In relation to this witness this morning,

    11 Dr. Striber, she is only requesting image and voice

    12 alteration, so she will be testifying with her real

    13 name being used. But before she enters the courtroom

    14 I would just request that the blinds be drawn so as to

    15 conceal her physical appearance and that the blinds

    16 behind the witness stand remain drawn.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. The request is granted.

    18 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I do not know

    19 if this is something that has just developed. All of

    20 these witnesses, I believe, have been tested already

    21 with the voice alteration, so this was done when they

    22 came last -- when they arrived in The Hague.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: I understand for technical

    24 reasons we would need to have a recess of 15 minutes.

    25 15 minutes are required to set up all the equipment

  87. 1 necessary for the voice alteration and so on:

    2 Well, we will stand in recess for ten

    3 minutes.

    4 (12.20 pm)

    5 (A short break)

    6 (12.30 pm)

    7 (The witness entered court)

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. Could you

    9 please make the solemn declaration?

    10 NEDA STRIBER (sworn)

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: You may proceed.

    12 Examined by MR. WILLIAMSON

    13 Q. Would you state your name for the record?

    14 A. My name is Neda Striber.

    15 Q. And what is your occupation?

    16 A. I am a doctor.

    17 Q. And how long have you been a doctor?

    18 A. Since 1985.

    19 Q. And do you have a certain field of

    20 specialisation?

    21 A. Yes. I have specialised in ophthalmology.

    22 Q. In 1991 were you working at Vukovar hospital?

    23 A. Yes, I was working in the eye department,

    24 ophthalmology department.

    25 Q. And what were your duties at Vukovar hospital

  88. 1 in 1991?

    2 A. In 1991 I had started my specialist training

    3 as a beginner specialising at the eye department of the

    4 Vukovar hospital.

    5 Q. And in the beginning of 1991 were things

    6 relatively peaceful in Vukovar?

    7 A. Yes, they were.

    8 Q. And what was the situation at the hospital in

    9 the beginning of the year?

    10 A. At the beginning of the year the hospital

    11 functioned absolutely normally.

    12 Q. Did the atmosphere in Vukovar change at all

    13 in the spring of 1991?

    14 A. I would rather say that that happened in May,

    15 that the atmosphere changed.

    16 Q. And was there a particular incident which

    17 occurred in May that caused the situation to

    18 deteriorate?

    19 A. There was an incident that occurred on

    20 2nd May when a conflict occurred and policemen were

    21 killed in Borovo Selo.

    22 Q. And was there a reaction in the town as

    23 a result of this incident in Borovo Selo?

    24 A. I think that there was a certain degree of

    25 tension and a certain unpleasant atmosphere in town.

  89. 1 Q. And did this tension also reach the hospital

    2 and the people that were working there?

    3 A. It is hard to tell to what degree this

    4 tension did reach the hospital, but perhaps the overall

    5 situation in town did have some effect on the people.

    6 Q. And was there any effect on the operations at

    7 the hospital?

    8 A. No. The hospital had to function regardless

    9 of anything happening outside.

    10 Q. Did there come a point in time when some of

    11 the people that were on the hospital staff left?

    12 A. After that period some people did not come to

    13 work. I would put it that way. They did not come, so

    14 that the number of staff declined in that period.

    15 Q. During the course of the summer did the

    16 tensions in Vukovar increase any more?

    17 A. Yes. They increased in August when the actual

    18 attack on Vukovar occurred.

    19 Q. And do you recall when that was in August?

    20 A. If I remember well, it was the 25th August

    21 when Vukovar was shelled for the first time.

    22 Q. And in the early days of the battle, more

    23 people began leaving the city, did they not?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Were these people forced to go?

  90. 1 A. I think that each individual decided himself

    2 whether he should go or leave, or stay. I think --

    3 I had no impression that anyone was pressuring people.

    4 I think it was the people themselves who decide whether

    5 they wanted to go or to stay.

    6 Q. And this was true of both Croats and Serbs,

    7 was it not?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. But you chose to stay, correct?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Why was that?

    12 A. Under such conditions when such situations

    13 occur -- I am, after all, a doctor, who, according to

    14 my oath, and my own moral principles, needs to stay at

    15 work and extend full protection to the people who need

    16 it.

    17 On the other hand, that is also my town,

    18 a town I grew up in, where I lived, and it was quite

    19 normal for me to stay there.

    20 Q. What about your family. Did they stay there?

    21 A. My mother and father stayed throughout in

    22 their house. At the end of August, the beginning of

    23 September, I took the children out of the town, whereas

    24 I returned and stayed.

    25 Q. Did you ever have the feeling that the town

  91. 1 had been taken over by Ustashe?

    2 A. No.

    3 Q. Did you ever hear this view being expressed

    4 by the people you worked with?

    5 A. No.

    6 Q. And there were Serbs as well as Croats among

    7 the patients and staff, were there not?

    8 A. Yes. Only we never made any distinction

    9 amongst ourselves. It was a mixed community, and until

    10 that time no one asked anyone else who he was in terms

    11 of ethnicity.

    12 Q. Was there any difference in the treatment

    13 that was received by Serbian patients as opposed to

    14 Croatian patients?

    15 A. Never.

    16 Q. And who was attacking the city of Vukovar, to

    17 your knowledge?

    18 A. The JNA.

    19 Q. And did you or others you worked with have

    20 the view that the JNA was coming to liberate you?

    21 A. We did not have that feeling.

    22 Q. Did you believe that you needed to be

    23 liberated from anyone?

    24 A. We did not feel that need, nor did we call

    25 anyone to liberate us.

  92. 1 Q. What were conditions like at the hospital as

    2 the battle progressed?

    3 A. The conditions were changing day after day at

    4 the very beginning. While the in-flow of patients was

    5 smaller, that is to say 10-20 wounded on average, with

    6 the remaining staff there was a possibility of taking

    7 proper care of them, but the conditions in the hospital

    8 were changing day after day as the fighting progressed.

    9 The hospital building itself was hit, too, so patients'

    10 lives were jeopardised as well as those of the staff so

    11 the higher floors of the hospital were evacuated. They

    12 moved downstairs so at the end of August and the

    13 beginning of September all the activities of the

    14 hospital took place in the cellar.

    15 Q. Did you have electricity?

    16 A. Not all the time. At the end, it was -- of

    17 the fighting -- it was impossible. Generators were used

    18 to provide electricity for the most important parts of

    19 the hospital, that is to say improvised operation

    20 rooms.

    21 Q. What about running water?

    22 A. Day after day this became increasingly

    23 difficult too, the more shelling there was of the

    24 hospital and of the town itself. There was no drinking

    25 water because the lines were cut off completely so the

  93. 1 supply of the hospital was made extremely difficult.

    2 Tracks systems were coming in and later --

    3 Q. I am sorry, there seems to be some

    4 distortion. (Pause)

    5 All right, I am sorry Doctor, if you could

    6 proceed.

    7 A. Further supplies were possible only through

    8 an enormous effort of the people who were bringing in

    9 water from the Danube and from the wells in the

    10 neighbourhood.

    11 Q. Now, you said that the hospital was being

    12 shelled and that this was affecting the ability to

    13 operate. How often was the hospital shelled?

    14 A. All day.

    15 Q. The shelling was continuous throughout the

    16 day?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. And was the hospital shelled at night as

    19 well?

    20 A. Very often at night, too.

    21 Q. Now, you indicated that there was an increase

    22 in the number of patients who were being admitted

    23 during the battle. Was there difficulty coping with

    24 these added numbers of patients?

    25 A. There were difficulties, because of the lack

  94. 1 of staff, and also because of the impossibility to

    2 accommodate this increasing number of patients.

    3 Q. And how many hours a day were you working?

    4 A. There were no working hours. 24 hours a day.

    5 Round the clock.

    6 Q. And where were you living?

    7 A. Together with all the staff and the patients

    8 I lived in the basement of the hospital. That was the

    9 old part of the hospital. All the staff of the eye

    10 department and of the ORL department was accommodated

    11 in 12 square metres. Nine of us lived there. That is

    12 where our sleeping quarters were and that is where our

    13 doctors' offices were.

    14 Q. And this was throughout the battle?

    15 A. Throughout the battle.

    16 Q. I would like to show you now a document that

    17 we would mark as Prosecutor's Exhibit 11, and a copy of

    18 this has already been provided to the Defence, your

    19 Honours. (Handed).

    20 If this can be displayed on the ELMO, I think

    21 it would be helpful.

    22 Dr. Striber, can you identify this document,

    23 please?

    24 A. This document is a drawing of the basement of

    25 the hospital and also a corridor linking the old and

  95. 1 the new part of the hospital and this is also part of

    2 the shelter.

    3 Q. And do you see indicated on this floor plan

    4 the area where you were living and where your offices

    5 were located?

    6 A. No. It is not marked here. It is here, behind

    7 this line, in this area. (Indicates).

    8 Q. And can you indicate to the court what all of

    9 these small black squares designate, that appears on

    10 the floor plan?

    11 A. These small black squares show the hospital

    12 beds, how they were placed in that part of the

    13 basement.

    14 Q. And in the latter stages of the battle, this

    15 was the only part of the hospital that was being used.

    16 Is that correct?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Do you have any idea as to the number of

    19 persons who died at the hospital during the course of

    20 the battle?

    21 A. I know that all the time precise records were

    22 kept on the number of patients who died. Towards the

    23 end of the battle I cannot say exactly what the number

    24 was, but about 600 patients died while the battle

    25 lasted in the hospital.

  96. 1 Q. And this would be a significant increase over

    2 the number of deaths that would occur at the hospital

    3 in normal times, I assume.

    4 A. A lot more.

    5 Q. What was done with the bodies of those who

    6 died?

    7 A. While it was possible to bury the dead within

    8 the hospital this happened at the local cemeteries. But

    9 as this became impossible due to the extent of the

    10 shelling towards the end of the battle, the dead bodies

    11 were taken to a building which was across the street

    12 from the hospital and the local people called it,

    13 "stara kapitanja".

    14 Q. By the middle of November, as the battle was

    15 coming to a close, did you see an increase of

    16 townspeople gathering at the hospital?

    17 A. During the last few days, towards the very

    18 end of the battle people, civilians, spontaneously came

    19 to the hospital. This was a large number of people.

    20 Q. And do you know what the reason was for them

    21 gathering at the hospital?

    22 A. Certain parts of town were almost completely

    23 destroyed, and I think that people felt a need to feel

    24 safe and protected and the hospital was the only oasis

    25 where they could seek shelter.

  97. 1 Q. Who were they seeking shelter from?

    2 A. Certainly from the shelling.

    3 Q. When did the fighting come to an end?

    4 A. An abrupt silence broke out on November 18th.

    5 Q. And on 18th and 19th November did the

    6 hospital receive any additional patients?

    7 A. No. No further patients were brought in.

    8 Q. When did you first become aware of JNA

    9 soldiers arriving at the hospital?

    10 A. This was on 19th, late in the afternoon, as

    11 I was seeing my patients I saw a group of soldiers

    12 walking around the hospital, looking at the basement

    13 and they were surprised that under such conditions we

    14 could work at all.

    15 Q. Did anyone offer any resistance to the JNA

    16 when they arrived at the hospital?

    17 A. No.

    18 Q. Into the evening of 19th November and through

    19 that night, what was going on inside the hospital?

    20 A. I could say that the situation was one of

    21 chaos in the hospital. We were expecting to be

    22 evacuated, but no one could say anything for sure, when

    23 it would start, and to what extent, and how, and in

    24 which way. We were getting ready to evacuate, but there

    25 was a chaos in all of this.

  98. 1 Q. And when were you on the night between

    2 19th and 20th?

    3 A. The old part of the hospital in my room.

    4 Q. Now, early the following morning on

    5 20th November, did you encounter (redacted)

    6 a nurse at the hospital?

    7 A. Yes. A bit before 7 am (redacted), our head

    8 nurse, came to my room with a list and she was escorted

    9 by a person in uniform, and she asked that one of the

    10 patients leave the room. The person in uniform

    11 addressed me as "colleague", I remember that, and

    12 therefore I concluded that he must be a doctor. He

    13 asked me what kind of wounds these were, whether these

    14 were heavy wounds or light wounds, and afterwards we

    15 were told that the entire staff of the hospital should

    16 meet at 7 o'clock in the plaster room of the hospital.

    17 Q. If I could ask you to refer once again to

    18 this floor plan on the ELMO, I believe it needs just

    19 a moment for it to warm up. (Pause). Can you point out

    20 to the court where the plaster room was located and

    21 which number designates it?

    22 A. Number 17.

    23 Q. So this is the room in the far right corner

    24 on the floor plan; correct?

    25 A. Correct.

  99. 1 Q. And did you attend this meeting in the

    2 plaster room?

    3 A. Yes, I did.

    4 Q. And who was conducting the meeting?

    5 A. The meeting was conducted by Major

    6 Sljivancanin, who had introduced himself to us.

    7 Q. And what did Major Sljivancanin say to all of

    8 you?

    9 A. Major Sljivancanin had a meeting with the

    10 staff of the hospital, and he explained the situation

    11 to us, the liberation of Vukovar. He explained to us

    12 that the medical staff need not worry because he knew

    13 that we as medical staff were duty-bound, regardless of

    14 the side that we were on, to carry out our tasks, but

    15 he said that they were taking over the hospital then,

    16 that Dr. Bosonac was no longer the head doctor and that

    17 their doctors would take over.

    18 Q. And during the course of this meeting did you

    19 notice anything happening outside the room?

    20 A. I was at the door of this room, and at one

    21 point I turned around and I left the room. It is in

    22 this area. This is where the door was. I walked out.

    23 (Indicates). I went 10 or 20 metres out of that room

    24 and I saw a group of patients who were brought in from

    25 this direction, and they were escorted by soldiers, and

  100. 1 I recognised some of my patients within this group.

    2 They were going out this way. This is the exit out of

    3 the hospital. That is where ambulances were when they

    4 would bring in emergency patients to the surgical ward.

    5 Q. I would like at this time for the witness to

    6 be shown an exhibit which has previously been marked as

    7 Prosecutor's Exhibit 8, which is the photograph album

    8 of Vukovar hospital.

    9 I am sorry Dr. Striber, just for the purposes

    10 of clarification, where you indicated the exit, can you

    11 state for the record the number which appears there?

    12 A. Number 12.

    13 Q. Okay. I now would like to refer you to

    14 Prosecutor's Exhibit 8, and if you can turn to the

    15 fourth page from the back, and then again if this could

    16 be displayed on the ELMO and you can indicate to the

    17 court what is depicted in this photograph.

    18 A. This photograph depicts the plaster room,

    19 rather the improvised surgery, operations room. This is

    20 the place where we had our meeting with Major

    21 Sljivancanin. This is the hallway that I went out to,

    22 and this is the direction from which the patients were

    23 brought in, and here, as much as you can see in this

    24 photograph, is the exit where the patients were taken

    25 out. (Indicates).

  101. 1 Q. So, the room that is indicated with the door

    2 open in this photograph is the room you have previously

    3 identified on the floor plan as number 17, the plaster

    4 room. Is that correct?

    5 A. That is correct.

    6 Q. If you would just turn the page to the next

    7 page of the photograph album, and can you indicate what

    8 is depicted in this photograph?

    9 A. This photograph depicts the exit for

    10 emergency cases. This is the place where the ambulance

    11 stops, the vehicle, and this is how they reach the

    12 surgery this way.

    13 Q. And is this the door where you indicated that

    14 the patients were being taken out of on the morning of

    15 20th November?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. If you could turn the page one more

    18 photograph here, and indicate what this photograph

    19 shows?

    20 A. This is precisely depicted from the outside.

    21 That is the entrance into that part of the hospital.

    22 Q. And this is the ambulance entrance which you

    23 have previously talked about. Is that correct?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: I wonder, you know,

  102. 1 I understand the interpreters need us to have a break

    2 now so I wonder whether we could have a recess now

    3 until 2.30. Is it fine with you or would you like to

    4 ask a few more questions?

    5 MR. WILLIAMSON: That is fine, your Honour.

    6 I only have about perhaps fifteen more minutes of

    7 questions for Dr. Striber so we can conclude that as

    8 soon as the break is over.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, all right: we will

    10 reconvene at 2.30 sharp.

    11 (1.05 pm)

    12 (Luncheon adjournment)














  103. 1 (2.30 pm)

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Before we proceed, we would

    3 like to say that at lunch-time we decided to deal with

    4 an issue which has been raised this morning and which

    5 requires a ruling, so we would like to make the

    6 following ruling from the bench:

    7 Pursuant to Rule 89(C) of the Rules of

    8 Evidence of the International Tribunal whereby:

    9 "A Chamber may admit any relevant evidence

    10 which it deems to have probative value."

    11 we rule as follows:

    12 1) written statements may be tendered in

    13 evidence after the witness has been heard by the Trial

    14 Chamber provided there is no objection by the other

    15 party;

    16 2) any statement so tendered may be used by

    17 the Trial Chamber as evidence only with regard to those

    18 issues which (a) have not been raised in oral

    19 testimony; and (b) have not been disputed by the other

    20 party.

    21 This is our ruling and I would like to take

    22 this opportunity to draw the attention of the Defence

    23 to this ruling, and to be careful whenever witness

    24 statements are tendered in evidence by the Prosecution

    25 to see whether there are any points in that particular

  104. 1 statement which are disputed by the Defence.

    2 Having said so, I think we may now proceed.

    3 Prosecutor?

    4 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, just very

    5 briefly, before we get back to the doctor's testimony,

    6 we have a request for the court and we are seeking

    7 leave of the Chamber to have an investigator designated

    8 as an individual who would be allowed to hear testimony

    9 pursuant to Rule 90(E) which allows a lead investigator

    10 who may testify later during the proceedings to monitor

    11 what is going on in the courtroom and we have one

    12 investigator that we would like to designate for this

    13 purpose.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Do you need the ruling right

    15 away?

    16 MR. WILLIAMSON: No, your Honour, it is

    17 something we would like to do as soon as possible, but

    18 certainly whatever is convenient for the court.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Maybe later on.

    20 MR. WILLIAMSON: Doctor, I believe when we

    21 left off you had indicated to the court that some of

    22 your patients -- that you saw patients being taken from

    23 the hospital as this meeting with Major Sljivancanin

    24 was concluding. Is that correct?

    25 A. Not after the end of the meeting, but during

  105. 1 the meeting with Major Sljivancanin people were taken

    2 away.

    3 Q. And was the manner in which these patients

    4 were being taken from the hospital what you would

    5 consider to be a normal way in which patients would be

    6 moved about?

    7 A. I could not call it a normal way of taking

    8 patients out, because in the event of the evacuation of

    9 patients then the doctor or other medical staff would

    10 have to be informed about it and they would know that

    11 the evacuation was taking place.

    12 Q. Did this seem to be happening at a normal

    13 pace or was it different in that regard as well?

    14 A. No. It appeared to have been done in haste.

    15 Q. And what was your perception as to what was

    16 occurring?

    17 A. Could you please explain your question

    18 a little?

    19 Q. Based on what you were observing and the

    20 manner in which these patients were being taken from

    21 the hospital, were you able to draw any conclusions as

    22 to what was being done?

    23 A. In view of the fact that the entire hospital

    24 staff at that moment was meeting in the room with Major

    25 Sljivancanin, as I have already said, the patients were

  106. 1 being taken, accompanied by the army, not escorted by

    2 the medical staff as we had been told, and as it would

    3 be normal to carry out the evacuation of a hospital so

    4 that one had the impression, or rather not an

    5 impression, I can claim that they were hurried on to

    6 get out at that moment.

    7 Q. After the meeting with Major Sljivancanin

    8 concluded, were you called to another meeting?

    9 A. Yes. After that meeting we were called -- we

    10 doctors were asked to go to a meeting with

    11 Dr. Ivankovic. This was a very brief meeting at which we

    12 were offered the possibility to choose as doctors

    13 either to stay or to go to Zagreb or Belgrade.

    14 Q. After the meeting with Dr. Ivankovic ended did

    15 you have an opportunity to go and try and check on your

    16 patients?

    17 A. Yes, after that meeting I went to the section

    18 of the hospital where I stayed throughout the war.

    19 I passed through the hospital corridors but my patients

    20 were no longer in their beds.

    21 Q. How many patients had been under your care?

    22 A. 24.

    23 Q. And how many of these patients were men and

    24 how many were women, if you recall?

    25 A. There were only 3 women.

  107. 1 Q. And when you returned to check on these

    2 patients how many of them were still there?

    3 A. I noticed only two of my women patients

    4 remaining in their beds.

    5 Q. So all of the males, 21 of the males and one

    6 female had been taken away. Is that correct?

    7 A. I did not find them at that moment. As for

    8 those that I saw being led away, I can say, but as for

    9 the others they were not there.

    10 Q. At some point in time had you made a list of

    11 your patients?

    12 A. Actually, the evening before the evacuation

    13 was announced I made a list of the patients. They were

    14 patients of the eye and ear, nose and throat department

    15 and they, according to the agreement, were to have been

    16 transported together with me.

    17 Q. At this point in time I would like to show

    18 a document to the witness, please, and I will mark this

    19 as Prosecutor's Exhibit 12. (Handed)

    20 A. Yes, that is the list.

    21 Q. And this is the list that you made of your

    22 patients; that is correct?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 MR. WILLIAMSON: In particular I would like to

    25 call your attention to a couple of the witnesses --

  108. 1 JUDGE MAY: Well, let us have copies.

    2 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I can provide

    3 the copies to you. They are in the Croatian language.

    4 (Handed).

    5 If the court pleases, I can have the witness

    6 go through very quickly and just indicate the names of

    7 the witnesses and state very briefly what is indicated

    8 as to the wounds or reason for hospitalisation.

    9 Could you do that please, Doctor?

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Well, I do not think we need

    11 to go through all the names. Maybe just a few names.

    12 MR. WILLIAMSON: Very well, your Honour.

    13 I just want to call your attention to a couple of

    14 persons, then, Doctor. There is an indication by

    15 witness, Josip Bradaric as to the nature of his wounds.

    16 Can you describe for the court what it states about

    17 Mr Bradaric and what, in fact, his injuries were.

    18 A. It is stated that he has injuries of the

    19 timpanus membrane in the skull, erosion of the eye and

    20 injury of the right hand or arm.

    21 Q. And is it not the case that some of these

    22 injuries were real and some were added to the list?

    23 A. That is the case.

    24 Q. And what were the other wounds that he had

    25 not received but actions that were taken in the

  109. 1 hospital?

    2 A. Bilateral damage of the ear membrane that

    3 existed, and the injury of the left arm existed. The

    4 eye injury was added. It was a slight injury.

    5 Q. Was there a reason why you had tried to make

    6 his wounds appear to be more serious than in fact they

    7 actually were?

    8 A. I shall try, as far as I am able, to explain

    9 this for you.

    10 Three months of war, three months you are in

    11 hospital, you watch daily more and more people dying

    12 around you. You experience the death of your closest

    13 relatives, of women and children, so much misery, and

    14 unhappiness in one place. It is even difficult to

    15 describe in words. This is happening everywhere around

    16 you. You are a doctor, but at the same time, you are

    17 a human being who is finding it very hard to endure.

    18 The battles are coming to an end, an end to everything

    19 is in sight. A silence sets in which one could describe

    20 as an ominous silence. One does not know what to expect

    21 next, at that moment you are no longer just a doctor,

    22 you are a person. Somebody is looking up to for help.

    23 They are my colleagues, my friends. People with whom

    24 I had grown up and lived. Now, aside from the fact that

    25 I am a doctor, a man has to help another human being so

  110. 1 a great responsibility is being placed on your

    2 shoulders. Somebody is in fact entrusting to you the

    3 life of somebody he holds dear. Somebody is begging you

    4 to save that life, and you are just a human being who

    5 wants to help another human being. I am trying to

    6 explain the situation we found ourselves in. I did not

    7 ask about the reasons. They were not important for me

    8 at that moment in time. I just said, "yes, I will try

    9 and help". Please understand me as one human being

    10 trying to assist another, nothing more. Trying to

    11 assist.

    12 Q. And so, the fact that some injuries were

    13 added or were falsified was done in an effort to save

    14 the lives of these persons. Is that correct?

    15 A. With that aim in mind alone.

    16 Q. And who was it felt that it was necessary to

    17 save them from?

    18 A. From those... I do not know whether I will be

    19 able to explain well, but from those who were shelling

    20 you throughout those three months and who had provoked

    21 so many deaths.

    22 Q. And this one individual that we have

    23 discussed, Josip Bradaric, he was, in fact, taken away

    24 on that morning, was he not?

    25 A. Yes. He was taken away.

  111. 1 Q. And are you aware if he has ever been seen

    2 alive since that time?

    3 A. No, he still has not been found.

    4 Q. Of the patients of yours that were taken

    5 away, are you aware of the fact that any of them might

    6 have been located since that time, and identified?

    7 A. Many of them have been identified;

    8 unfortunately in the mass grave at Ovcara.

    9 Q. After the patients were taken away early in

    10 the morning of the 20th, what did you do for the

    11 remainder of the morning?

    12 A. The rest of the morning I went to the area

    13 where I had stayed, collected my things and went

    14 outside into the hospital compound. For a time all of

    15 us that wanted to go to Croatia stood in front of the

    16 emergency ward, that is within the hospital compound.

    17 After a little time, I cannot tell you exactly whether

    18 it was an hour or two later, but in any event, this is

    19 a period when time stands still. We went outside. In

    20 front of the former court building buses were waiting

    21 for us. We entered them and we were taken out of town.

    22 Q. And as you were driving out of Vukovar were

    23 you able to observe what had happened to the city over

    24 the past three months?

    25 A. The city was dreadful. It no longer resembled

  112. 1 our town. Some buildings were unrecognisable because

    2 they were terribly, terribly damaged.

    3 Q. Were you able to observe bodies of persons

    4 who had been killed?

    5 A. As we travelled through the city in the

    6 centre one could see some dead bodies on the side of

    7 the road.

    8 Q. And where were you taken on the buses?

    9 A. We passed through the centre of town by bus

    10 along Radica Street and then we turned towards the

    11 Stepjen Supen School, I think that is Senoina Street in

    12 the direction of the medical centre and the barracks.

    13 After that we were supposed to go to Bogdanovci and

    14 Nustar, so our original evacuation route was to have

    15 been to Vinkovci. At one point in time the buses

    16 stopped. After that we were told that the Croatian

    17 government does not wish to receive us and we were

    18 directed towards Nostra.

    19 Q. To your knowledge, what happened to the

    20 Croatian population that was living in Vukovar up until

    21 1991?

    22 A. Most of the men ended up in camps. A small

    23 percentage managed to get away and go wherever they

    24 wanted.

    25 Q. And the women and children, were they free to

  113. 1 stay there?

    2 A. I cannot say because I could not be precise

    3 in my statement.

    4 MR. WILLIAMSON: I have no further questions.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Has the Defence

    6 counsel -- however, before we start may I remind you of

    7 the warning -- please, do not be too fast in your

    8 asking your questions. Could you give some time to the

    9 witness for the -- so that we can get the translation?

    10 Thank you.

    11 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, just one more

    12 matter just very quickly if I may. I failed to tender

    13 Exhibits 11 and 12 and so at this time I would like to

    14 tender those to the court. Prosecutor's Exhibit 11

    15 being the floor plan of the hospital, and Exhibit 12

    16 being the list that the witness prepared.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Any objection?

    18 MR. FILA: No.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: No. Thank you.

    20 Examined by MR. FILA

    21 MR. FILA: You told us that you were offered

    22 the possibility of staying. Did a single Croatian

    23 doctor stay in the hospital?

    24 A. I think they did. I cannot claim with

    25 certainty, but I think they did.

  114. 1 Q. May I ask you why you did not stay?

    2 A. My greatest desire was to see my children

    3 whom I had not seen for three months. That was my only

    4 wish.

    5 Q. So there was no other reason for you to

    6 leave, except your wish to see your children and,

    7 I assume, your husband?

    8 A. At that moment, yes. Afterwards I had time to

    9 think it over.

    10 Q. Could you please tell me in your statement

    11 you said that individual Serbs had abandoned their

    12 positions. Why?

    13 A. What do you mean by, "positions"?

    14 Q. The chief, the head of the eye department was

    15 a Serb, but he left. Many other Serbs did the same.

    16 I am quoting from your statement.

    17 A. My view is that everyone decided as they

    18 wanted so you would have to ask them.

    19 Q. But I am asking you. Before the incident in

    20 Borovo Selo in May 1991, did anything happen or was it

    21 just like that, the Serbs decided to kill 12 policemen

    22 because they had nothing better to do?

    23 A. You know, I never went into politics, I am

    24 just the doctor so it is rather difficult for me to

    25 answer that question.

  115. 1 Q. Have you heard of Tomislav Metcep?

    2 A. I have.

    3 Q. Did you know him, perhaps?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. Before May 2nd 1991 were the ZNGs formed,

    6 were exercises and drills done with weapons?

    7 A. I do not know.

    8 Q. How do you know about Borovo Selo, then?

    9 Do you know now why the head of the

    10 ophthalmology department, who was a Serb, left Vukovar,

    11 because he worked with him?

    12 A. I think he can give you the answer.

    13 Q. Well, did you ask him?

    14 A. I did not have time to ask him.

    15 Q. He left so quickly?

    16 A. He did not say good-bye when he left.

    17 Q. Is it normal for you, for somebody to leave

    18 such a post without saying good-bye?

    19 A. No, it would not be normal.

    20 Q. Do you think perhaps that he felt in

    21 jeopardy?

    22 A. I think that he had no one to fear.

    23 Q. I am asking you, do you think that he felt in

    24 jeopardy?

    25 A. I cannot tell you what he felt.

  116. 1 Q. Do you perhaps know how many Serbs left

    2 before you yourself left to see your children?

    3 A. No.

    4 Q. Did any leave?

    5 A. Probably, yes, but I do not know how many.

    6 Q. You do not know why either, I assume.

    7 A. No.

    8 Q. Those people that you said were healthy and

    9 you falsified their report saying that they were ill,

    10 were they people carrying weapons, fighting people, or

    11 were they women and children?

    12 A. I do not know whether any of them carried

    13 a gun, but when they came to see me not one of them had

    14 a weapon.

    15 Q. You know who are able-bodied people, as

    16 a doctor. They are not elderly, they are not women,

    17 they are not children.

    18 A. In that case you would have to explain to me

    19 what you mean by, "men of fighting age".

    20 Q. Let me tell you. Men between 18 and 60?

    21 A. Why should they all be fighting people?

    22 Q. Because they are subject to mobilisation.

    23 I am sure you studied medicine in wartime conditions.

    24 On that list of people to whom you extended

    25 humanitarian assistance by adding certain ailments,

  117. 1 because that is what it says in your statement, I am

    2 sorry.

    3 A. Did you not read it well.

    4 Q. Just a moment:

    5 "Josip Bradaric - a policeman. He was not

    6 injured but we cut him and then we sewed him up again

    7 so as to be able to register him."

    8 But where did you cut him, then?

    9 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I would object.

    10 I think that he is only quoting this out of context and

    11 the statement continues and said that in fact

    12 Mr Bradaric had been injured. So I think that the

    13 witness is being put in an unfair position and being

    14 asked to comment on a partial statement.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Objection sustained. Could

    16 you please move on to other questions?

    17 MR. FILA: This is a citation. I am quoting

    18 from the statement.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: I wonder whether the witness

    20 has got a copy of -- in Serbo-Croatian -- of the

    21 witness statement, or the statement she made.

    22 MR. WILLIAMSON: She does not, your Honour,

    23 I am happy to provide one for her at this time which

    24 might be helpful.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, then she could be so

  118. 1 kind as to read out the relevant passage concerning

    2 this particular patient. (Handed). The whole passage.

    3 A. Just a moment, please, for me to find the

    4 place. (Pause).

    5 Yes? Excuse me, should I read the whole

    6 paragraph?

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, please.

    8 A. "Josip Bradaric - policeman. Was not injured

    9 but we cut him and sewed him up so that he could be

    10 included among the wounded. He was hospitalised in

    11 September 1991 with perforations of the ear. He was

    12 called out and taken away and he is registered as

    13 missing."

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: This is what you stated when

    15 you gave your statement? That is the passage you read

    16 out?

    17 A. Yes. Yes.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: You may proceed.

    19 MR. FILA: Is it customary for doctors to

    20 make incisions, to cut patients and then sew them up

    21 again? Was that your custom or was this an exception?

    22 A. I have tried to explain the situation and to

    23 convey the specific characteristics of the situation as

    24 it was at that moment.

    25 Q. My question is, did you have other cases like

  119. 1 that of making incisions on patients?

    2 Among those who you put in casts, were there

    3 many of those? Let me read it out, again, from your

    4 statement.

    5 A. I did not put on any casts.

    6 Q. "For many, we put bandages and plaster casts

    7 so that they would appear to be injured."

    8 My question is, were there cases when an old

    9 man, or woman or child was given a plaster cast?

    10 A. I cannot say with certainty.

    11 Q. Was there any old man, woman or child that

    12 was cut or were there not fighters, putting -- who had

    13 a guilty conscience?

    14 A. I am sorry, I think that is going outside the

    15 context of these questions.

    16 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I would object

    17 to the reference -- there is no way that this witness

    18 knows whether patients had a guilty conscience.

    19 I object to that characterisation.

    20 MR. FILA: But the doctor may know whether

    21 a woman or a child was being protected or a fighter.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: May I ask the Defence

    23 counsel to confine himself to relevant questions?

    24 MR. FILA: In one part of your statement you

    25 said:

  120. 1 "At that point it was inevitable that the

    2 rest of the city would fall. The soldiers surrendered

    3 their arms and changed into civilian clothes. Many of

    4 them put on bandages or plasters so that it would seem

    5 as if they had been wounded."

    6 That means that you knew that these people

    7 were soldiers who changed their uniforms into civilian

    8 clothes, and plaster bandages were put on them so that

    9 it would seem as if they were wounded. Is that the kind

    10 of medication you provided?

    11 A. I heard about that.

    12 Q. No, you said that you knew about it. Not that

    13 you heard it, you knew about it. That is what you

    14 said. Are these the people you cut, made incisions on?

    15 A. I do not know who was a fighter and who was

    16 not.

    17 Q. This was your statement, madam. Page 3,

    18 paragraph 4 from above. Please read it to the Chamber

    19 because at that moment -- that is how the sentence

    20 starts.

    21 A. I just wish to add that I do not know who it

    22 is and that I heard about it.

    23 Q. Would you kindly read what you stated, then

    24 to, the Chamber?

    25 A. Yes, I will:

  121. 1 "Because the fall of the remainder of the

    2 city was inevitable, the soldiers threw away their

    3 arms and changed their uniforms into civilian clothes.

    4 Many of them put on either plaster or bandages so that

    5 they would look as if they were wounded".

    6 Q. Thank you. That is what I wished to ask about

    7 and now we are going to move on to something else.

    8 A. Please do.

    9 Q. Your Honour, there is a list of patients that

    10 the witness provided on this same statement of yours,

    11 let me just help you, 5, from the back. That is your

    12 list, starting with Crnobrnja. Have you found it?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Number 3. It says, "Bozidar Segec".

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. "Member of the ZNG, registered as missing."

    17 A. Segec.

    18 Q. Sorry. They do not have the letter, "Sch",

    19 here. I wish to draw the attention of the Chamber to

    20 the fact that this Bozidar Segec is not in the

    21 indictment provided by the prosecution.

    22 "Goran Kovacevic, member of the ZNG". Are

    23 you following me?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. His right eye was injured. First he was

  122. 1 registered as missing but I hear that he was exchanged

    2 and now he lives -- and this person is on the list of

    3 people who were killed. That is how the Prosecutor

    4 lists this person. Do you have any knowledge as to

    5 whether this person is alive or not?

    6 A. I have no knowledge of that.

    7 Q. So you know what you stated here?

    8 A. I heard and it is assumed.

    9 Q. No, this was just a question. Never mind.

    10 Vedran Galic. Do you have any knowledge of him? Number

    11 10.

    12 A. Yes, I found the name.

    13 Q. Do you know anything about this person?

    14 Please read what you said.

    15 A. Specifically now, at this point in time, I do

    16 not know. This was an assumption because it does not

    17 say here decidedly that I know. I say, "I believe",

    18 that he left Vukovar with the transport and that he now

    19 lives nearby.

    20 Q. I do not want to put words into your mouth,

    21 doctor. I am simply reading what you said.

    22 A. Yes?

    23 Q. 22.

    24 A. Yes?

    25 Q. Janja Pothorski. You have said that she is

  123. 1 a civilian. What did you say?

    2 A. Civilian, died during the transport on the

    3 road to Zagreb.

    4 Q. Was that so?

    5 A. That is the information I had received.

    6 MR. FILA: I wish to draw the attention of the

    7 Chamber to the fact that she is listed as killed in

    8 Ovcara. Just like the previous four persons. Thank you.

    9 No further questions.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Any

    11 re-examination?

    12 Re-examined by MR. WILLIAMSON

    13 MR. WILLIAMSON: Yes, your Honour, just

    14 a few.

    15 Doctor, Mr Fila asked you about the head of

    16 the ophthalmology department leaving and you indicated

    17 that he had left. Did other Serb doctors remain at the

    18 hospital?

    19 A. Yes, yes they did.

    20 Q. And they continued with their duties as

    21 normal?

    22 A. Yes, they stayed until the end.

    23 Q. And are you aware of anything bad happening

    24 to those doctors that stayed?

    25 A. No. They work in that same hospital until the

  124. 1 present day.

    2 Q. Mr Fila asked you about the differences

    3 between the way that men and women were treated and the

    4 way that fighters were treated. At the time that the

    5 JNA came into the hospital, were any of your patients

    6 fighting?

    7 A. No one.

    8 Q. Were they engaged in combat with the JNA?

    9 A. At that point in time nobody was fighting.

    10 Q. Were they armed?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. Were the JNA soldiers armed?

    13 A. They were.

    14 Q. So this is a situation of armed soldiers

    15 taking unarmed wounded persons out of the hospital,

    16 correct?

    17 A. Correct.

    18 Q. Mr Fila asked you on cross-examination if it

    19 was customary for doctors who cut patients who are not

    20 injured. Is it customary for soldiers to take patients

    21 away out of the hospital and execute them?

    22 A. With your permission, I can perhaps --

    23 MR. FILA: Objection, your Honour, what is

    24 this all about?

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Objection sustained.

  125. 1 MR. WILLIAMSON: Nothing further, your

    2 Honour. Your Honour, I would, at this time, though,

    3 like to tender the statement of Dr. Striber and just

    4 a couple of questions in relation to that.

    5 Doctor, you have already been questioned in

    6 relation to the statement that you gave on the

    7 14th June of 1995. Do you recall giving that statement?

    8 A. I do.

    9 Q. And at this time I would ask that the witness

    10 be shown a copy of the statement in English and if you

    11 can, see if you recognise your signature on this

    12 document. I would mark this as Prosecutor's Exhibit 13.

    13 (Handed).

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. That is, in fact, your signature?

    16 A. That is my signature.

    17 MR. WILLIAMSON: At this time, your Honour,

    18 then, I would tender this as Prosecutor's Exhibit 13.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Any objection? I am turning

    20 to Mr Fila.

    21 MR. FILA: No objection to that, your Honour.

    22 However, I do object to the way in which this was put.

    23 This should have been done before I cross-examined. In

    24 this way, your Honour, the Defence is already unequal

    25 because the Prosecutor is entitled to redirect

  126. 1 questioning but if it continues this way I am going to

    2 give up on my questioning because after my questioning

    3 there is a flood of questions, additional questions put

    4 by the Prosecutor. It is unfair, and with the

    5 permission of this court, I hope the Prosecutor will

    6 not mind, it has nothing to do with this, certainly it

    7 has nothing to do with this, it is related to the

    8 floor plan. The floor plan of the hospital. It has

    9 nothing to do with this. I mean, it is not a polemic or

    10 anything, it is nothing out of the ordinary.

    11 Point 26. What is that? If the Prosecutor

    12 agrees, if not, I will withdraw my question. Please,

    13 could you just tell me, what is the room numbered 26?

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Sorry, are you asking this

    15 question to our witness?

    16 MR. FILA: With the permission of the court.

    17 There is no contest over this, but it simply has not

    18 been explained. What is that room? It is related to the

    19 JNA, so that... with your permission, of course, if you

    20 allow it.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: If the Prosecution does not

    22 object, I would like to ask this question, this

    23 question to be asked of the witness.

    24 MR. WILLIAMSON: No objection your Honour.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. May I ask the

  127. 1 witness to answer this question?

    2 MR. WILLIAMSON: I do not believe she has the

    3 document in front of her, your Honour. (Handed).

    4 A. 26, yes, sir. Put your question and I will

    5 answer to the best of my knowledge.

    6 MR. FILA: The question is simple. Could you

    7 please explain what that room is there? There are no

    8 beds there. It says "reservists", so it is not quite

    9 clear to me, why are there no beds there, and what

    10 period is this related to, because reservists are

    11 mentioned, so it is a new point for me. Believe me, it

    12 is quite new to me.

    13 A. Well, first of all I did not make the

    14 floor plan, so I cannot say why the beds have not been

    15 marked here, and why it says, "reservists". I am sorry,

    16 but I do not know why you are asking me this question,

    17 but as far as I can follow you, I will try to explain.

    18 I do not know why it says so.

    19 MR. FILA: Your Honour, that is precisely why

    20 I put the question, because they are not quite clear to

    21 me. Room 26. As you can see, it is a room without beds.

    22 It is a patient's room for reservists of JNA,

    23 I imagine, I do not know. JNA reservists. I do not

    24 know. Who are these JNA reservists? It is quite unclear

    25 what 26 is. So if we can clarify it, let us clarify it.

  128. 1 If not, I think that it is the Prosecutor who should

    2 clarify it.

    3 A. As far as I know, at that time we had members

    4 of the JNA as patients too. If that relates to that,

    5 I imagine that is the case.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: May I ask the witness simply

    7 to clarify, what was in room 26? Can you tell what was

    8 there? For what purpose was this room used, if you may

    9 remember?

    10 A. As far as I remember beds have not been

    11 marked here in room 26, but we did have a few patients

    12 who were members of the JNA, and who were staying in

    13 the rooms. I cannot state with full responsibility. It

    14 says here that this was a room for JNA reservists, but

    15 I do not know whether that is a controversial issue

    16 here, this notion, "reservists", but this is where the

    17 wounded of the JNA army were.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: All right, thank you. Now,

    19 to go back to the objections by Mr Fila, I, with all

    20 due respect, would like to clarify that in a way you

    21 mixed up two different issues. One issue was whether or

    22 not the Prosecutor was entitled to re-examine the

    23 witness and ask further questions; this is a basic

    24 right of the Prosecution, and each party, any party

    25 laid down in our Rules of Procedure.

  129. 1 A different issue which you also raised was

    2 about the time when a witness statement may be tendered

    3 in evidence, and you are suggesting that -- and you

    4 would like the -- this statement to be tendered before

    5 examination and cross-examination, if I understood you

    6 correctly, not after the examination. That is what you

    7 said.

    8 MR. FILA: I am not denying the Prosecutor

    9 his right to put additional questions after my

    10 cross-examination, but if during the redirect, he asks

    11 for the statement to be tendered as evidence, then

    12 I can ask no further questions based on that statement

    13 because I am not entitled to that. In that way, I am

    14 put in an unequal position. That is what I wish to say.

    15 I am not denying the gentleman the right to redirect,

    16 and he is entitled to that, because I cannot be denied

    17 the right to ask questions related to the statement

    18 because the statement is tendered as evidence only

    19 afterwards.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: So therefore, as I say, you

    21 have the right either to object to the very fact of

    22 tendering the witness statement in evidence, or if you

    23 accept that it -- that this statement be tendered in

    24 evidence, you may wish to -- it to be that this

    25 tendering should take place before the examination and

  130. 1 cross-examination. If this is your position, we will

    2 rule on this matter later on.

    3 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, if I may just

    4 very briefly just explain, I think that Mr Fila had

    5 already asked questions in relation to the statement,

    6 so the fact that it was tendered after that in no way

    7 affected his ability to ask questions in relation to

    8 the statement, and secondly, in this situation it was

    9 just an oversight on my part to not tender it during

    10 the examination-in-chief. There was no intention to do

    11 it at a later time.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. I think --

    13 I wonder whether there is any objection to the

    14 release -- to our witness being released. Mr Fila?

    15 MR. FILA: Your Honour, because the

    16 Prosecutor has said that he had omitted to do that,

    17 I withdraw everything I said. If he tenders this on

    18 time, in the future, I mean this statement as evidence

    19 so in that way I am satisfied with the answer. Thank

    20 you.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you so much.

    22 As I say, is there any objection to the

    23 witness being released?

    24 MR. WILLIAMSON: No objection, your Honour.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr Fila?

  131. 1 MR. FILA: No objection.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Thank you so much

    3 for coming to testify and you may be released.

    4 (The witness withdrew)

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: While the witness is being

    6 released, I will try to -- not to waste our time by

    7 raising two issues.

    8 First of all, a question to Mr Fila.

    9 Mr Fila, you were so kind as to give us this

    10 morning a document, actually a set of documents in

    11 Serbo-Croatian, including the law on national defence

    12 of 23rd April 1982, the law on military service,

    13 2nd December 1985, and the amended law on military

    14 service issued on April 26th 1991 taken from the

    15 official gazette of the SFRY. Well, we are, of course,

    16 grateful to you for giving us these documents. However,

    17 we were wondering whether you could point to the court

    18 and to the Prosecution the relevant provisions of these

    19 laws because we need to have them translated into

    20 English and it would be a waste of time and money to

    21 translate the whole of these three laws which are

    22 really lengthy.

    23 My second question relates to the law which

    24 we also need, and which I was hoping you would provide

    25 us, namely the law on the powers and functions of the

  132. 1 various bodies of municipalities in the -- in Croatia

    2 at that time. Remember, we asked you to be so kind also

    3 as to provide that law. In particular, the provisions

    4 of that law relating to the powers of the presidents of

    5 municipality, of the assemblies of municipalities.

    6 I wonder whether you could, in future, give us this

    7 law.

    8 And again -- and then before we move on to

    9 our next witness, may I come back to an issue raised at

    10 the outset by the Prosecutor when the Prosecutor asked

    11 the court to allow an investigator, a Prosecution

    12 investigator to monitor the hearings, if I understood him

    13 correctly.

    14 I wonder, before we -- during our recess we

    15 discussed this matter. I wonder whether we could get

    16 any objection, or the position of the Defence counsel

    17 on this issue. I would, of course, before deciding we

    18 would need to know what you think about this motion,

    19 whether you have any objection about the investigator.

    20 MR. FILA: Your Honour, I do not understand

    21 why this is needed. If I get an explanation why this is

    22 needed, I am certainly going to agree to it but

    23 I simply wonder why, so could you explain?

    24 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, there is

    25 a provision in the Rules under Rule 90, I believe it is

  133. 1 paragraph (E) which allows for this. The reason is that

    2 investigators are involved in this case from the

    3 outset. They have participated in witness interviews,

    4 they do have knowledge of certain facets of the case

    5 that may not always be available to all of the

    6 investigators -- I am sorry, of all of the attorneys --

    7 so it is helpful at times to have an investigator

    8 present who, if a question arises, is able to provide

    9 information to us which we believe assists us in

    10 presenting the case.

    11 Under Rule 90(E) it states:

    12 "Notwithstanding subrule (D), upon order of

    13 the Chamber, an investigator in charge of a party's

    14 investigation shall not be precluded from being called

    15 as a witness on the ground that he or she has been

    16 present in the courtroom during the proceedings."

    17 So the same would apply to Mr Fila, if he has

    18 an investigator that he would wish to be present we

    19 would certainly have no objection to it.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr Fila?

    21 MR. FILA: I had simply asked for an

    22 explanation to understand what was going on but I said

    23 in advance that I would agree to it, so fine.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Good. No objection. We will

    25 rule --

  134. 1 MR. FILA: Your Honour, may I just explain

    2 something?


    4 MR. FILA: With the evidence that I provided

    5 you perceived all the legislation related to the

    6 military in Yugoslavia in the SFRY. That is why there

    7 are two laws on conscription, that it would not seem as

    8 if I were leaving something behind. All of it has been

    9 put there together, however, in addition to all of

    10 that, you have the bylaw regulating the municipality of

    11 Vukovar where it says exactly what the powers of the

    12 municipal assembly are.

    13 This has been provided in our submissions on

    14 15th December, and you have the entire organisation of

    15 the municipality there, and of course there is no

    16 problem involved whatsoever. Of course I can mark the

    17 relevant articles if you give me back the documents.

    18 I am going to provide this for you by tomorrow. It is

    19 no problem whatsoever.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you very much indeed.

    21 MR. FILA: Thank you, sir.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. I suggest that we

    23 now move on to our next witness.

    24 MR. WILLIAMSON: Yes, your Honour, Mr Waespi

    25 will be taking this next witness.

  135. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: We have just decided that we

    2 will grant your request that an investigator be present

    3 here.

    4 MR. WILLIAMSON: Thank you.

    5 (The witness entered court)

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: Good afternoon. May I ask

    7 the witness to make the solemn declaration?

    8 WITNESS M (so declared)

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be

    10 seated.

    11 Examined by MR. WAESPI

    12 Q. Good afternoon, your Honours. This witness

    13 has, during the weekend, expressed her wish to have

    14 protective measures as to her appearance and she does

    15 not want that her face is shown out of this courtroom,

    16 but her voice is her voice. It will not be distorted,

    17 so I would kindly ask you and the Defence not to

    18 address her by her name. As you all know from your

    19 statements, the ones we have provided, you and the

    20 Defence, her name appears on that, it is not redacted,

    21 so I really would like to ask you not to mention the

    22 name when you may have questions to her.

    23 Good afternoon. Do you feel comfortable?

    24 A. Yes, thank you.

    25 Q. What is your profession?

  136. 1 A. I am now retired, but my profession is

    2 a certified nurse.

    3 Q. Thank you. Would you please outline briefly

    4 for the court your educational background, very

    5 briefly, and your work experience?

    6 A. I graduated from the nurses' college, and

    7 I worked as head nurse of the department.

    8 Q. Head nurse of which hospital?

    9 A. In the hospital in Vukovar.

    10 Q. And for how long have you been working in

    11 that position?

    12 A. For 30 years.

    13 Q. Thank you. Can you please describe to us in

    14 all briefness again the situation and more, the working

    15 conditions in the Vukovar hospital in August up to

    16 early November 1991?

    17 A. From the end of August work in the hospital

    18 evolved under absolutely abnormal conditions. One might

    19 call them improvised conditions. We could not provide

    20 proper facilities. We had to use the same premises for

    21 surgery and for accommodation in the case of an attack

    22 against the town. At the end of August these attacks

    23 became more frequent and we moved into those improvised

    24 premises in the basement and in the nuclear shelter.

    25 We also ensured reserve quantities of water,

  137. 1 food and medicines, and we worked there until the end

    2 of November.

    3 Q. You just mentioned these attacks, that they

    4 became more frequent. Was the hospital directly

    5 targeted? Do you remember any specific incidents?

    6 A. The hospital was targeted daily. What all of

    7 us remember most is the shelling of the hospital which

    8 occurred at the beginning of October when an enormous

    9 250 kilogram bomb fell on to the hospital. It fell

    10 through all the floors. Fortunately it did not explode.

    11 There were several other bombs and this destroyed

    12 a building that had already been damaged, so there was

    13 less and less space for accommodation.

    14 These attacks went on until the JNA entered

    15 the hospital.

    16 Q. Thank you. Were there any defence positions

    17 out of the hospital -- around the hospital of which you

    18 are or were aware of?

    19 A. There was no defence in the vicinity of the

    20 hospital because that was too far for anyone to be able

    21 to hit that far or defend the hospital in that way. It

    22 was not possible to do anything in defence of the

    23 hospital. If the people were to be around the hospital,

    24 they should have had guns or machine guns and that was

    25 not possible.

  138. 1 Q. Where were you living at that time? In the

    2 hospital?

    3 A. Most of the staff was in the hospital. Very

    4 few staff members could go to their homes or apartments

    5 because they were either destroyed or under daily

    6 attacks. It was simplest to organise work at the

    7 hospital if we all stayed there, so that we avoided

    8 leaving the hospital because the question was, if they

    9 left, whether they could return which would mean that

    10 we would be missing in personnel.

    11 Q. What were your working hours, if I can sort

    12 of ask this sort of very sober question.

    13 A. The working hours for all of us were as

    14 required. Sometimes 24 hours, 48 hours, our rests were

    15 short. It depended on the intensity of the attacks and

    16 the number of incoming wounded people.

    17 Q. Thank you. How many patients in these days in

    18 August, September 1991 were in the hospital?

    19 A. At first, there were fewer wounded, that is

    20 in August and the beginning of September. There were

    21 many wounded coming in, but we could at that time

    22 evacuate them to Vinkovci, so that they were daily

    23 driven off to Vinkovci. After the end of September this

    24 evacuation was no longer possible because Vukovar was

    25 surrounded and we had an average of 30 wounded a day

  139. 1 until the end of November, newly admitted wounded, but

    2 the number at the end was 450 wounded when Vukovar

    3 fell.

    4 Q. What nationality were these patients?

    5 A. The patients were all the inhabitants of

    6 Vukovar who had stayed there. All the ethnic groups

    7 were represented. All the ethnic groups living there;

    8 Croats, Ruthenians, Serbs, everyone.

    9 Q. Were there also soldiers among the patients

    10 and from each army?

    11 A. There were defenders who were wounded on

    12 their positions who were defending the town from the

    13 aggressors, and there were also several wounded from

    14 the aggressor's armies.

    15 Q. Did you treat these -- I assume by,

    16 "aggressor's army", you mean the JNA army; did you

    17 treat the JNA soldiers any different from any of the

    18 other patients?

    19 A. A patient is always just a patient, and in

    20 order to avoid the possibility of any such insinuations

    21 one might say that they were even given better

    22 treatment.

    23 Q. You said just a moment ago that there were no

    24 defence lines close to the hospital. Was the hospital

    25 itself defended?

  140. 1 A. In the same way as the whole town. The people

    2 who were defending the town thought they were defending

    3 the hospital as well. There was no special defence for

    4 the hospital.

    5 Q. Were there any soldiers inside the hospital

    6 who would be armed with weapons like machine guns?

    7 A. No. There were no soldiers, nor were there

    8 any such weapons. The hospital was guarded by the

    9 security to avoid anyone undesirable entering, any acts

    10 of sabotage. These were people in police uniforms but

    11 without arms.

    12 Q. Was the hospital marked in any way, that it

    13 was a hospital?

    14 A. Yes, it was. On the roof of the hospital

    15 there was a big red cross sign, and also in the yard

    16 there was a big sheet with the red cross, and these

    17 marks could be easily visible from all directions,

    18 I think.

    19 Q. I am now going to ask you about the final

    20 days of -- at the end of the siege of Vukovar.

    21 Is it correct to say that the influx of

    22 people into the hospital was for you the signal that

    23 Vukovar was about to fall?

    24 A. It was not normal for as many as 1,000

    25 civilians to come to the hospital in one day, so

  141. 1 obviously something was happening in their shelters, so

    2 we assumed that the army was very close, and that is

    3 why the civilians came to the hospital which, even

    4 though damaged, was in better condition than other

    5 parts of the city.

    6 Q. Are you aware that in those days, middle of

    7 November 1991, uniformed men came into the hospital?

    8 A. Not in uniform. Only the wounded came. To

    9 enter the hospital they had to have permission. No one

    10 came in uniform.

    11 Q. Are you aware of a situation when the son of

    12 one of the doctors who was working inside the hospital

    13 entered the hospital?

    14 A. Dr. Ivankovic's son entered the hospital when

    15 we knew that Vukovar had fallen. This was the 18th or

    16 17th, probably 18th November.

    17 Q. How did he look like, Mr Ivankovic's son?

    18 A. When I saw him he was wearing a camouflage

    19 uniform, and he was sitting in a room talking to his

    20 parents.

    21 Q. Now, on November 18th was there an evacuation

    22 planned for the next day, and were there lists made

    23 which included the names of all these people who were

    24 supposed to be evacuated?

    25 A. The evacuation was planned for the 19th, and

  142. 1 on the 18th the lists were made of the wounded. The

    2 lists of the staff who were divided according to the

    3 place they wanted to go to, whereas the patients were

    4 classified according to their injuries, so that the

    5 number of ambulances and other vehicles could be

    6 planned.

    7 Q. Can you tell us who drew up these lists?

    8 A. The lists were mostly made by the doctors who

    9 had to evaluate the condition of the patients and to

    10 envisage evacuation for them. If a patient could not

    11 sit, for instance, then he had to be transported in

    12 a lying condition and that was the criteria on the

    13 basis of which these lists were made.

    14 Q. Was also an administrative aide called Verica

    15 Graf involved in drawing up these lists?

    16 A. She was involved to the extent that she

    17 received the ready list made by the doctors. Her duty

    18 was to retype it on the typewriter and to hand it to

    19 Dr. Bosanac.

    20 Q. What happened now on 18th November? Did this

    21 planned evacuation take place?

    22 A. On 18th November the evacuation was not

    23 planned for the 18th, but for the 19th. On the 18th we

    24 were just preparing the evacuation; on the 19th it did

    25 not take place, and in the morning we were told that it

  143. 1 would be delayed by one day.

    2 Q. Now, on 20th November 1991, around 7 o'clock

    3 in the morning, were you called by Dr. Kust?

    4 A. In the morning of the 20th about 7 o'clock,

    5 Dr. Kust, the anaesthetist, came to fetch me and said

    6 that I was wanted in the surgery department by

    7 Dr. Ivankovic so I went there and he was waiting for me

    8 together with a doctor who was wearing a JNA uniform.

    9 Q. Did you later find out what the name of this

    10 doctor from the JNA was?

    11 A. I learned much, much later that his name was

    12 Marko Ivezic.

    13 Q. Were there also soldiers in that room as

    14 guards?

    15 A. Yes, there were. Dr. Ivezic had in his hand

    16 a list and he said that the doctor, "wants to examine

    17 the patients on this list". Behind me were two armed

    18 soldiers, and therefore, the doctor, me, and two

    19 soldiers went to look at the patients that he wanted to

    20 examine.

    21 The first on the list was Josip Bradaric. He

    22 was the husband of one of our nurses. We went to see

    23 him and the doctor insisted that we unwrap the wound

    24 for him to see it. We did that, and he saw that he had

    25 a wound on his arm.

  144. 1 Then we visited the other patients in haste.

    2 We were in a hurry, because the doctor did not insist

    3 on examining each and every patient, but he did insist

    4 that we do it as quickly as possible. After those

    5 examinations we went back to the same spot in the ward.

    6 Q. How long did this examination of these

    7 patients last, approximately?

    8 A. In my assessment, about fifteen to twenty

    9 minutes.

    10 Q. Thank you. What happened next? Were you then

    11 called to another meeting?

    12 A. When we came back to the surgery admission

    13 ward a message was conveyed to us. I do not know whose

    14 message it was, whether it was of this doctor,

    15 Dr. Ivankovic or somebody else, that all the medical

    16 staff must meet in the plaster room. We informed the

    17 staff as quickly as we could, but as the hospital is

    18 quite large we were meant to congregate there at

    19 8 o'clock. The message that was conveyed at the same

    20 time was that all mobile patients should go out into

    21 the yard of the hospital.

    22 Q. Who chaired that meeting you were just

    23 referring to?

    24 A. The meeting was chaired by Sljivancanin. He

    25 told us, he brought us there to tell us that the

  145. 1 medical staff would be evacuated according to plan and

    2 that we will do this as we agreed. I do not know who

    3 had reached this agreement, the JNA or whoever, but

    4 that we would be able to leave that way. That is to say

    5 they would ensure buses for us and that we would be

    6 moving towards the place that was already written down.

    7 Q. Can you describe the way Major Sljivancanin

    8 was looking when you saw him that day?

    9 A. Sljivancanin is a very tall person, so we

    10 sort of looked up to him because he was taller than all

    11 of us, and he made a political speech to us, I should

    12 say. He said that the JNA had many casualties in their

    13 aggressor's attack against Vukovar. He said that the

    14 war had only started but that he would do his best so

    15 that we could leave safely. That he was doing his

    16 gladly, but he promised that and that is the way that

    17 it would be. And after him Dr. Marko Ivesic spoke to us

    18 and he told us that Dr. Bosanac was no longer our

    19 director and that he would take over the command over

    20 the hospital now.

    21 Q. Was Sljivancanin wearing a uniform?

    22 A. Sljivancanin was wearing a camouflage

    23 uniform, and the doctor was wearing a JNA uniform.

    24 Q. You mentioned a minute ago that during the

    25 time all the hospital staff and the doctors were

  146. 1 gathered to attend this meeting, patients and other

    2 people were taken out is that correct?

    3 A. That is correct. We could not even follow who

    4 was leaving and who was ordering these people to leave,

    5 so all those who could walk were leaving, irrespective

    6 of whether they were children or women or whoever. Only

    7 the medical staff could stay in the plaster room.

    8 Everybody else had to go out into the yard and it is

    9 only later that we received information that out there

    10 the men were separated from the women.

    11 For example, if the wife have worked in the

    12 hospital and her husband was there with him, he would

    13 have to go to the other side where the men were taken.

    14 That is to say, all the civilians went out, all the

    15 administrative aides, all the other staff, all the

    16 wounded who could walk, but we who were in the plaster

    17 room could not follow all of this. We could not see

    18 where they went, and in what direction, what part of

    19 town they were taken.

    20 Q. Do you know Marija Bucko?

    21 A. Marija Bucko is a nurse who also worked with

    22 us at the hospital all the time and her husband was

    23 among us with us like all our husbands, or most of our

    24 husbands. She believed, because she was one of the last

    25 to enter the plaster room, she noticed that they were

  147. 1 being taken some place where it was not planned to take

    2 them, and when Sljivancanin told us that we would have

    3 to be prepared for evacuation she asked where our

    4 husbands were and he said that we should make a list of

    5 our husbands.

    6 Q. Was this list --

    7 A. When we -- I mean, another nurse,

    8 Marica Mokos this list. She asked us all about our

    9 husband's names and this list was given to

    10 Sljivancanin, and we did not know where this list was

    11 being taken, nor could we think of where our husbands

    12 would be taken. After the meeting we took our things

    13 and we waited outside in the yard for further

    14 evacuation.

    15 Q. Can you tell me how many names were on that

    16 list?

    17 A. On that list there could have been up to 40

    18 names, between 30 and 40 names.

    19 Q. Was the name of your husband also on the

    20 list?

    21 A. Yes. Yes it was.

    22 Q. And did you yourself put his name onto that

    23 list?

    24 A. I told the person who was making the list

    25 what his name and surname were. She asked me what my

  148. 1 husband's name was.

    2 Q. You said a minute ago that after this meeting

    3 you went all out of this plaster room into the yard

    4 where you were waiting.

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. How long were you waiting there?

    7 A. Probably until 11 o'clock, approximately. We

    8 were told that we should wait for the buses because

    9 there were not enough buses, that we should wait there,

    10 but still we did not know where all these people had

    11 been taken to, and what would happen to us afterwards.

    12 In the meantime, ambulances entered the hospital of the

    13 JNA army. They went to get the wounded who remained

    14 lying in their beds.

    15 Q. Was there, at a certain point in time, one of

    16 the husbands coming back with a bleeding nose?

    17 A. At one point in time, perhaps around

    18 11 o'clock, from the opposite direction, from the

    19 street where we did not expect the buses to come, we

    20 were waiting for the buses to come from the other

    21 street, the other side. One of the husbands came and

    22 his nose was bleeding and he said that our husbands

    23 were on a bus in the street opposite to the one where

    24 we were waiting, and that is when we went to get them

    25 to see where they were coming from and what had

  149. 1 happened to them. In the street there was a guarded

    2 bus.

    3 Q. Did you see your husband on that bus?

    4 A. I did. I saw my husband among all these other

    5 people. I went to the door of the bus and I told the

    6 soldier that my husband was on the bus and that

    7 I should like to see him and that he should get out and

    8 he said that I should go away and that that would not

    9 be allowed, and I went back to the same place.

    10 I continued to wait. Some of the husbands had left.

    11 Others remained. I went back a few times, so they

    12 released him after all. He was perhaps one of the last

    13 to leave. A few people remained, and to the best of my

    14 knowledge, all of them got out with the exception of

    15 two.

    16 Q. Did you approach somebody to ask after the

    17 first refusals of these two guards in the bus? Did you

    18 approach somebody else who could help you to release

    19 your husband?

    20 (4.00 pm)

    21 A. I asked Sljivancanin too and he said, "if he

    22 is on the bus they will let him go". However, I did not

    23 succeed the second time either, and I asked our doctors

    24 who were Serbs who stayed on that they helped me, but

    25 they said they could not help me but nevertheless he

  150. 1 managed to get out somehow.

    2 Q. You said a sentence ago that more or less all

    3 the husbands were able to be taken off that bus except

    4 for two persons. Can you give us the names of those two

    5 persons?

    6 A. Those two persons were our assistant cooks

    7 whose wives also worked, Zeljko Jozo and Adaga Jozo. We

    8 have not heard of them since then.

    9 Q. Did you then board another bus which took

    10 off?

    11 A. Our husbands who could hardly walk, I should

    12 say, we did not know what had happened to them, they

    13 were terrified. They did not say anything. They joined

    14 us, and according to instructions, we went to wait for

    15 the buses that were supposed to come and collect us. We

    16 were waiting for them perhaps some time between 1 and

    17 2, about 1.30 the buses arrived.

    18 Q. How many buses did arrive?

    19 A. Four or five buses arrived. One bus was

    20 prepared to take the people who wanted to go to Serbia.

    21 There was plenty of room there because only a few

    22 people boarded that bus because all the rest wanted to

    23 go to Croatia. I forgot to mention that Sljivancanin

    24 in his speech said that we could ask to go to Croatia

    25 but Croatia was not willing to take us. That was

  151. 1 a gesture that surprised us because we were sure that

    2 our people were waiting for us there.

    3 Q. Which direction, which route, did the bus

    4 take?

    5 A. A little below the hospital, near the court

    6 building. The buses were parked, and when we got on

    7 them, the buses passed through the very heart of the

    8 city through Radica Street, Senowa Street, in the

    9 direction of Negoslavci. We stopped for the first time

    10 near the Velepromet building. I do not know why we

    11 stopped there.

    12 MR. WAESPI: Perhaps your Honours, I see it is

    13 4 o'clock, I have some more questions. It would be

    14 a convenient time for having a break.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Yes. All right.

    16 We stand in recess for twenty minutes.

    17 (4.05 pm)

    18 (A Short break)

    19 (4.20 pm)

    20 MR. WAESPI: Your Honours, just for the point

    21 of clarification, we should pass this written note, the

    22 name to the witness because, as you are aware, she only

    23 recently asked us for this type of protection, so we

    24 need to assign her a pseudonym, so I would like to ask

    25 the usher to give this piece of paper with her name on

  152. 1 it to her, and ask her whether that is her name.

    2 (Handed). And not to say the name.

    3 A. Yes, that is it.

    4 Q. And show it to the Defence, please, and then

    5 to the judges. I would like to tender it afterwards as

    6 exhibit number P14 under seal. Thank you, your Honours.

    7 Further on, this witness will be referred to

    8 as letter M. Thank you.

    9 Just before the break you said that the bus

    10 stopped at Velepromet. Is that correct?

    11 A. Yes, that is correct. The bus stopped at

    12 Velepromet, but not one of us asked to leave the bus.

    13 Why we were stopping there, I do not know.

    14 Q. How long did you stay at Velepromet?

    15 A. Not long. Maybe fifteen or twenty minutes,

    16 then we went in the direction of Negoslavci, but in the

    17 meantime we turned in the direction of the Modateks

    18 factory. We thought we were going towards Bogdanovci

    19 because that was the direction and that was how we

    20 thought our evacuation would take place, but shortly

    21 afterwards we turned back again in the direction of

    22 Negoslavci.

    23 Q. So you were again on the road from Vukovar to

    24 Negoslavci. Is that what you are saying?

    25 A. Yes. We were going in the direction of

  153. 1 Negoslavci. We were stopped very often. Various

    2 vehicles belonging to the JNA passed by us. The reason

    3 for the stops we did not know, but when we saw that

    4 convoy of ambulances pass by us, we realised that that

    5 was what we were waiting for, for the ambulances to go

    6 in front, and then the column proceeded towards

    7 Negoslavci.

    8 Q. So, besides these ambulances there was not

    9 much traffic. Is that what you are saying?

    10 A. In our direction, no. We were alone, but

    11 there were vehicles coming in the other direction, JNA

    12 vehicles. When it got dark we noticed that the vehicle

    13 in front of us was a military vehicle with its lights

    14 on. Also, at the end of the column there was another

    15 vehicle.

    16 Q. When you finally arrived in Negoslavci, was

    17 it already dark? Was that the moment when you realised

    18 that there were lights on the front car?

    19 A. We realised only when dark fell, and this

    20 must have been about 4 or 5 o'clock in the afternoon.

    21 Q. How was the general condition of that road

    22 between Vukovar and Negoslavci? Was it easy to roll on

    23 with your bus?

    24 A. There were no problems whatsoever, except for

    25 these stops which were never explained to us. We would

  154. 1 ride for a couple of kilometres and then stop and then

    2 go on and that is how we got to Orolik.

    3 Q. You just said that you got to Orolik, so

    4 you -- after Negoslavci you continued on the road to

    5 Orolik. Was this kind of road any different to the one

    6 between Vukovar and Negloslavci?

    7 A. No, there was no difference. Only when we

    8 reached Orolik we thought again we would be going

    9 towards Vinkovci but we did not. We went towards Sid.

    10 The whole column of buses turned off towards Sid....

    11 Q. What was your final destination that day?

    12 A. We did not know what our final destination

    13 was, but after some time we found ourselves in Sremska

    14 Mitrovica. We did not know why we were taken there and

    15 in the centre of Sremska Mitrovica the buses stopped. We

    16 could get off, and that was when I saw for the first

    17 time that we had been joined by European Monitors who

    18 said, who told us not to leave the buses. We asked

    19 where the other people were, those who left the

    20 hospital much before us. We thought that we would meet

    21 them there. However, there were only our buses there,

    22 and they warned us that we should list the people who

    23 we thought had been taken somewhere else.

    24 Q. Thank you. I would like now to leave these

    25 events in November 1991. You gave an interview to one

  155. 1 of -- or several of the investigators of this office on

    2 19th and 20th June 1995. Is that correct?

    3 A. Could you please repeat the question?

    4 Q. Sure. You talked to one or two persons from

    5 the International Criminal Tribunal, this court, in

    6 June 1995. Do you remember that?

    7 A. Yes, I did talk to them.

    8 Q. And you signed a document at the end which

    9 reflected the testimony, or the interview you gave. Is

    10 that also correct?

    11 A. I did.

    12 Q. I would now like the usher to hand over the

    13 English version of the statement to the witness, and

    14 have her asked whether those signatures here at the

    15 bottom of each page is her signature. It would be

    16 Prosecution exhibit number 14, marked for

    17 identification, probably A if we later have the

    18 Croatian version as well.

    19 Do you remember having -- is that your

    20 signature on all these pages?

    21 A. It is.

    22 MR. WAESPI: Thank you. I would like, your

    23 Honours, to tender that statement now into evidence.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Any objection

    25 from the Defence? No, so it will be A, I understand,

  156. 1 because the B will be the Croatian version.

    2 THE REGISTRAR: No, the original version

    3 which is the English version would be Exhibit 15, and

    4 the translation into Serbo-Croatian would be 15A.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    6 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, your Honours. No

    7 further questions.

    8 Thank you. Mr Fila?

    9 Cross-examined by MR. FILA

    10 Q. Your Honours, witness, you were in the

    11 hospital. Do you know, because Dr. Bosanac has already

    12 testified that already, on the 19th some people were

    13 taken from the hospital?

    14 A. Yes. Two of our medical technicians, Marko

    15 Mandic, Juderic Slatko and another worker, Marko Valaho

    16 were taken on the 19th in the evening.

    17 Q. Was any person among them who was later

    18 missing?

    19 A. Marko Mandic.

    20 Q. Yes --

    21 A. And nothing is known about them.

    22 Q. Is there any information that one of them

    23 ended up in Ovcara?

    24 A. I could not tell you.

    25 Q. In connection with Bradaric, you said that

  157. 1 the doctor undid the bandage, was it on his hand?

    2 A. I cannot remember whether it was his right or

    3 left arm. The doctor asked the bandage to be removed.

    4 We removed the bandage, and of course, the doctor saw

    5 a wound, an injury.

    6 Q. Did you make that injury? Was it made in the

    7 hospital?

    8 A. How can an injury be caused in the hospital?

    9 Q. The witness before you said that this injury

    10 was made in the hospital, that the doctors had cut him.

    11 A. I cannot claim that. I do not know. I was the

    12 person who undid the bandage. In fact, it was not even

    13 me.

    14 Q. But you cannot claim that it was not done?

    15 A. I cannot claim either.

    16 Q. Because you have asked me how come this could

    17 happen, and I am explaining to you how.

    18 You were present when the army entered, the

    19 JNA.

    20 A. In certain segments, yes, partly.

    21 Q. Did anyone come, people from Vukovar, local

    22 people, with them? You mentioned Ivankovic and others.

    23 It is stated in the statement,?

    24 A. The day before on the 19th in the afternoon;

    25 Bogdan Kuzmic came to the hospital who was looking for

  158. 1 one of our nurses. Then there was Sascha Maksemovic,

    2 Dudzko Cucovic. I saw him in the yard.

    3 Q. Does that mean that they could have shown the

    4 JNA where things were in Vukovar? How else could they

    5 have known where the hospital was?

    6 A. These were people working in the hospital.

    7 Cucovic was working in the hospital. Bogdan Kuzmic too

    8 was working in the hospital so they knew exactly where

    9 the hospital was.

    10 Q. Did they know what Vukovar looked like?

    11 A. Probably they did.

    12 Q. Of course, when they are from Vukovar. So

    13 there was no need from somebody from the outside to

    14 come and show them the hospital?

    15 A. I do not know. I cannot tell you that.

    16 Q. Did you see anyone else showing them things?

    17 Did you see yourself?

    18 A. No. I did not see any persons from outside

    19 Vukovar.

    20 Q. I have some very brief questions regarding

    21 the 20th. Can you tell us roughly what time you reached

    22 the Velepromet?

    23 A. If we left about 1.30 in the direction of

    24 Velepromet, then I do not think the drive could have

    25 lasted more than -- of course very approximately it

  159. 1 could have been 1.30 or 2, so we were not later than

    2 2.30 there.

    3 Q. Thank you. So it was still daylight?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. When did dusk, begin?

    6 A. It was already dusk, when we were not going

    7 towards Negoslavci, but while we were stopping...

    8 I cannot tell you exactly how much time we spent in

    9 front of Velepromet, then we took a different road,

    10 then, as far as I remember, it was dusk.

    11 Q. When you reached Negoslavci, you got there

    12 eventually.

    13 A. Yes. You have to pass Negoslavci to get to

    14 Orolik.

    15 Q. Was it dark when you get to Negoslavci?

    16 A. I think it was still dusk.

    17 Q. It was still dusk. And in Orolik?

    18 A. In Orolik it was already dark.

    19 Q. During your journey did you see the army?

    20 Were there any barricades, tanks, or anything?

    21 A. No. There were no barricades across the road,

    22 but our buses would stop. Do not ask me what vehicles

    23 they were. Some kind of weaponry. They were going in

    24 the opposite direction from us. They were going towards

    25 Negoslavci and Vukovar and we were going in the

  160. 1 opposite direction. This was probably one of the

    2 reasons why we stopped from time to time.

    3 Q. All the other vehicles following you would

    4 also have to stop?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. So can we conclude from this that in the

    7 course of your drive from Velepromet to Negoslavci and

    8 Orolik you saw the army from time to time?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Do not be concerned. That is all I want to

    11 know.

    12 Thank you. I have another problem -- just one

    13 more question, and then perhaps we can deal with the

    14 problem.

    15 If I were to show you a video of those buses,

    16 could you tell whether it was on the 20th?

    17 A. I do not know whether I could tell by seeing

    18 the tape, but I know for sure that it was the 20th.

    19 Q. Yes, when you were there I believe you but

    20 could you tell if you were to be shown a tape? Have you

    21 seen any videotapes?

    22 A. No.

    23 MR. FILA: Thank you. Thank you. I have no

    24 further questions, your Honour.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Re-examination?

  161. 1 MR. WAESPI: No, but just to clarify that also

    2 this statement is under seal, the one we just handed as

    3 exhibit Prosecution number 15.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    5 I have just one minor question. I wonder

    6 whether -- you mentioned -- I am turning to the

    7 witness. You mentioned Josip Bradaric and you saw him.

    8 Was he a relative of one of the members of the hospital

    9 staff?

    10 A. He was the husband of one of our nurses.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I wonder whether

    12 there is any objection to the witness being released.

    13 No objection? No objection? Thank you so much for

    14 coming here. You may be released.

    15 (The witness withdrew)

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: I am turning to the Defence

    17 counsel and asking whether -- you said that you would

    18 raise an issue, a general question, Mr Fila. A problem,

    19 or whatever, a few minutes ago.

    20 MR. FILA: Yes.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: Would you like now, since we

    22 have some time?

    23 MR. FILA: Your Honour, it is a general

    24 question. The video that was referred to at the closed

    25 session shows this, so I am asking how can we deduce

  162. 1 from that -- you know which video I am referring to, in

    2 connection with the alibi. Could she identify whether

    3 those were the buses that she was in? I am asking how

    4 we could do that, and whether we could do that so as to

    5 be sure that that was taken then, so I would suggest

    6 that the Prosecutor do this in private session, if he

    7 wishes to. I think that would be useful.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    9 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, there is a very

    10 simple process of the televisions outside being turned

    11 off for very short segments for this. It can happen

    12 very easily and it is technically not complicated to

    13 do, so if Mr Fila ever feels that he would like to show

    14 the video he should simply ask for it to be in private

    15 session and I think it takes minutes for them to flick

    16 switches up in the control booth and he can do that

    17 quite safely.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Mr Fila? Would you

    19 agree?

    20 MR. FILA: I agree, but the Prosecutor has

    21 the video. I have nothing to show and that is the

    22 problem.

    23 MR. NIEMANN: We will certainly make it

    24 available. I should say, yes, Mr Williamson has

    25 indicated and suggested to me, if Mr Fila would feel

  163. 1 that he would like to put this video to this witness

    2 that has just been here, we certainly have no objection

    3 to getting the tape for him, making it available and

    4 for this witness to be recalled so that he may do that,

    5 if he feels that he would like to do that.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Mr Fila?

    7 MR. FILA: Yes, very well.

    8 Your Honour, it is just the end of the video.

    9 You have two or three minutes. If you recall, it is the

    10 departure of the buses that is shown. The last two or

    11 three minutes. That is all, if you are agreeable.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Now it is

    13 a question of timing. I wonder whether -- how long it

    14 would take you to provide the technicians with the

    15 videotape and then show it in private session or

    16 otherwise we could put it off until tomorrow and

    17 meanwhile hear another witness, start with another

    18 witness. But then you would have to ask the witness who

    19 came before not to leave.

    20 MR. NIEMANN: Yes. I do not know what

    21 arrangements have been made for the witness to leave.

    22 I have a feeling that the witness might be planning on

    23 returning tomorrow morning early. I think there was

    24 some plans for them to fly back, the three women to fly

    25 back. What I might suggest to your Honours is that if

  164. 1 we start with our witness now, and then just before the

    2 break, say at about quarter past, in the meantime we

    3 could have people organise it so that the witness could

    4 be brought back and for fifteen minutes that could be

    5 available.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Thank you. Yes.

    7 If it is agreeable to you, yes. Good. To Mr Fila?

    8 MR. FILA: I agree. I would even agree if one

    9 of the members of the Prosecution team show the video

    10 to the witness and then tell us what the witness said.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. That is very kind

    12 of you but it cannot be done. So we will proceed with

    13 the witness number 4.

    14 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, this next

    15 witness has requested full protective measures which

    16 would include a pseudonym, image alteration and voice

    17 alteration so I understand that we would have to take

    18 a break anyway in order to implement the voice

    19 alteration. In the time that we do that, we could have

    20 the video down here and just show it to this witness,

    21 so I would perhaps suggest that we just put this next

    22 witness off until in the morning and we can conclude

    23 with the last witness and show them the video, if that

    24 is acceptable to the court.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: We have now to have a recess

  165. 1 of about 10 minutes?

    2 MR. WILLIAMSON: As soon as we can get the

    3 tape down here. It may even be five minutes, your

    4 Honour. It will be very brief.

    5 (4.40 pm)

    6 (A short break)

    7 (5.00 pm)

    8 (In closed session)

    9 (Witness M entered court)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

  166. 1












    13 pages 514-517 redacted - closed session









    22 (5.25 pm)

    23 (Hearing adjourned until 9.15 tomorrow morning)