Page 820

          1  DAY 7          

          2            (9.15 am)

          3            JUDGE CASSESE:  Good morning. May I ask the

          4  Registrar to call the case number?

          5            THE REGISTRAR:  Case number IT-95-13a-T,

          6  Prosecutor versus Dokmanovic.

          7            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you. May I have the

          8  appearances please?

          9            MR. NIEMANN:  If your Honours please, my name

         10  is Niemann and I appear with my colleagues,

         11  Mr. Williamson, Mr. Waespi and Mr. Vos.

         12            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.

         13            MR. FILA:  Good morning, your Honours. I am

         14  Toma Fila, appearing with Miss Lopicic and Mr. Petrovic

         15  on behalf of Mr. Dokmanovic. Thank you.

         16            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you. I will ask whether

         17  Mr. Dokmanovic can hear me. Can you? Yes. Thank you.

         18            So I assume the witness will be

         19  brought in.

         20                (The witness entered court)

         21            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes. Please sit down. Thank

         22  you. Mr. Fila, may I remind you that you should please

         23  be so kind as to speak slowly and to wait a few seconds

         24  before you put the next question, otherwise we cannot

         25  follow you. Thank you.

Page 821

          1               DRAGUTIN BERGHOFER (continued)

          2           Cross-examined by MR. FILA (continued)

          3       Q.   Mr. President, I have even written down for

          4  myself a reminder to that effect.

          5            Mr. Berghofer, you spent several days in the

          6  hospital before 20th November.

          7       A.   The 18th and 19th.

          8       Q.   Was there a room for wounded reservists or

          9  JNA members in the hospital?

         10       A.   I would not know.

         11       Q.   Yesterday you spoke about reservists. What do

         12  you imply under that term?

         13       A.   In the former Yugoslavia men who had done

         14  their military service could, after five or six years,

         15  receive military uniforms in the event of a war so as

         16  to be prepared for action.

         17       Q.   To be mobilised?

         18       A.   Yes. And those are the people I consider to

         19  be reservists.

         20       Q.   Are those units within the JNA or are they

         21  paramilitary units?

         22       A.   According to that system, in Yugoslavia they

         23  would be legal. However, now they appeared to be

         24  paralegal. Paramilitary.

         25       Q.   Well, how have you come to that conclusion?

Page 822

          1       A.   Because only they received uniforms as far as

          2  I know these others were not in uniform. I do not know.

          3  Maybe somebody was in their command, and then they

          4  would be within the JNA, if somebody ordered them to go

          5  there, but I do not know that.

          6       Q.   In your testimony you said that Dr. Bosanac

          7  had became director of the hospital. When Dr. Ivankovic

          8  was pushed aside, you said. What did you mean?

          9       A.   I do not remember. I cannot recall saying

         10  that, that Dr. Bosanac was director and that he had been

         11  pushed aside. I cannot remember that. Could you please

         12  remind me in more detail, if possible?

         13       Q.   We will find it in a moment.

         14            On page 3, you said:

         15            "Dr. Bosanac became director in the hospital

         16  as soon as Dr. Ivankovic had been pushed aside."

         17       A.   I just --

         18       Q.   That is your statement.

         19       A.   Well, very well. Perhaps I did say that, but

         20  I remember that on the night between 19th and 20th,

         21  Dr. Bosanac gave -- conveyed a message to Dr. Ivankovic

         22  asking him to come to an office and then he said to

         23  her, "how come you want me now and for three months you

         24  never called me". I remember that.

         25       Q.   Yes, but you did not give me the answer why

Page 823

          1  you use the term, "pushed aside". Was that because he

          2  was a Serb?

          3       A.   That was not my expression. That is not an

          4  expression I use.

          5       Q.   But that is what is written there.

          6       A.   No, I could not have said that. I may have

          7  said that he was replaced.

          8       Q.   May I remind you that you signed that

          9  statement?

         10       A.   Perhaps I did, but maybe in the translation

         11  when I said that he was replaced they interpreted it as

         12  being pushed aside. Maybe the person who was

         13  translating instead of putting, "replaced", put,

         14  "pushed".

         15       Q.   We will look at the English version. Since

         16  I do not speak English would you please allow my

         17  colleague to read it out for the witness?

         18            MR. PETROVIC:  "Dr. Bosanac became director of

         19  the hospital, which had pushed Dr. Ivankovic to one

         20  side.  She wanted to talk to Mladen because the

         21  occupation of the Chetniks..."

         22       A.   No, I must assert that he was replaced. He

         23  was dismissed. Let me give you the reason. When we

         24  would come to the hospital at times, bringing food,

         25  then a nurse called Mandic who is also a Serb, she is

Page 824

          1  in Zagreb now, said, "Mr. Nikola and Drago, in future

          2  when you bring something, do not bring it to

          3  Dr. Ivankovic but bring it here because he has been

          4  replaced".

          5            So I would never have used the term, "pushed

          6  aside", that he was replaced, yes, it is true.

          7       Q.   But why was he replaced?

          8       A.   Well, you must ask the professionals, I am  very

          9  good friends with Dr. Ivankovic. I was a friend for 15 or

         10  16 years. I have every appreciation for him still, but

         11  why he was replaced I could not tell you.

         12       Q.   During your stay in the hospital for three

         13  days, 17, 18 and 19, did you see Dr. Dokmanovic

         14  anywhere?

         15       A.   No.

         16       Q.   You said yesterday that you were put on the

         17  buses. What kind of buses? Military or civilian?

         18       A.   Civilian.

         19       Q.   And you were driven to the JNA barracks.

         20       A.   Yes. But they were not buses from Vukovar.

         21  I wish to underline that.

         22       Q.   What kind of buses were they in terms of

         23  colour, licence plate?

         24       A.   As far as I can remember, I think the

         25  licences were of Zarenijan. They were not very new, but

Page 825

          1  they were not that old either, maybe ten years old.

          2       Q.   What colour were they?

          3       A.   They were beige, off-white.

          4       Q.   You said that you mentioned Professor Licina.

          5       A.   Yes.

          6       Q.   Where did he get off the bus?

          7       A.   In the barracks.

          8       Q.   He got off the bus in the barracks?

          9       A.   Yes. A reservist said, "Mr. Licina, how come

         10  you are here?" He shrugged his shoulders and five

         11  minutes later he was taken out. He, Hidek, and Kolesar,

         12  the husband of the head nurse of Dr. Ivankovic.

         13       Q.   You are quite sure, he was not taken off at

         14  Ovcara?

         15       A.   No, no, he was sitting in front of me in the

         16  bus.

         17       Q.   I forgot to ask you, did the Serbs start

         18  leaving Vukovar before these events when you went to

         19  the hospital?

         20       A.   You are thinking of these two days?

         21       Q.   No, no, before that, June, July, August,

         22  September.

         23       A.   Some did go. I cannot say they did not.

         24  Others stayed with me in the basement. I can tell you

         25  their names. I am still good friends with them.

Page 826

          1       Q.   I should now like to ask you, since you said

          2  you had a watch when you were in the barracks, about

          3  what time did you leave the JNA barracks and at what

          4  time did you reach Ovcara?

          5       A.   Sir, I must explain. I had two watches,

          6  a wristwatch and a pocket watch, but I think it was

          7  around -- do not take me by my word -- but it was about

          8  five to one or ten past one in the afternoon. In the

          9  afternoon.

         10       Q.   Where were you at ten past one?

         11       A.   We left the barracks then.

         12       Q.   And roughly at what time did you reach

         13  Ovcara?

         14       A.   They did not drive fast, they drove rather

         15  slowly, so roughly half an hour, about 2 pm. I could

         16  not really tell you exactly.

         17       Q.   But around 2 pm.

         18       A.   Yes.

         19       Q.   You said yesterday that you saw Slavko

         20  Dokmanovic during the time when the buses were still

         21  being unloaded?

         22       A.   Yes.

         23       Q.   Does that mean before all the buses had been

         24  unloaded?

         25       A.   Yes.

Page 827

          1       Q.   Was that daytime when visibility is good, was

          2  it dusk or was it night-time?

          3       A.   Let me add, sir, take into consideration that

          4  there were about 240 of us. That is not the exact

          5  figure, but roughly, and take into consideration that

          6  first our personal documents were seized. Then we were

          7  beaten.

          8       Q.   You were saying that the buses were being

          9  unloaded. Was that a time when visibility was very good

         10  when you saw Dokmanovic?

         11       A.   Yes, it was still complete daylight.

         12       Q.   You told us yesterday that you were later on

         13  taken out of the hangar and that you spent some time

         14  outside, and then you were taken by a vehicle somewhere

         15  else.

         16       A.   Yes.

         17       Q.   When you were taken out of the hangar was it

         18  still daylight?

         19       A.   Yes, yes. There was daylight for another

         20  roughly 40 minutes.

         21       Q.   From the moment you left the hangar, another

         22  40 minutes of daylight?

         23       A.   Yes, something like that, 45 maybe.

         24       Q.   So when you left it was dark or was it dusk?

         25       A.   It was dusk, but when we reached the main

Page 828

          1  road, Vukovar, Negoslavci, it was completely dark.

          2       Q.   From the moment you left the hangar, did you

          3  go back into it?

          4       A.   I did not.

          5       Q.   Can I take it, then, that from the moment you

          6  were taken out of the hangar until you were taken

          7  towards Velepromet and wherever, you were outside all

          8  the time?

          9       A.   Yes, that is correct.

         10       Q.   Yesterday you described to us how you entered

         11  -- and the beatings, and so on. In answer to

         12  a question from the Prosecution, you said, "in such

         13  situations one sees...", and then you added something

         14  else.  You used a term that I did not quite catch.

         15  Could you repeat it?

         16       A.   Well, you see, in such circumstances --

         17       Q.   You were saying something to the effect, you

         18  saw... and something else.

         19       A.   Well, of course. One is not indifferent in

         20  such circumstances and one is doing one's best to avoid

         21  the beatings. I may have added something else but could

         22  you remind me?

         23       Q.   Let me remind you. You said that one sees

         24  things that one does not see.

         25       A.   Yes, when I was hit in the head, the

Page 829

          1  Prosecutor asked me whether I lost consciousness. No.

          2  On the contrary. I saw the stars. Something to that

          3  effect.

          4       Q.   But you said, "one sees things that one does

          5  not see", under such circumstances.

          6       A.   Yes, yes, that is so.

          7       Q.   You said that your wife was killed by the

          8  shelling on 6th November.

          9       A.   Yes.

         10       Q.   You remember very well that date?

         11       A.   It was 6th November.

         12       Q.   How can you explain that in your statement it

         13  says that she was killed on 4th November?

         14       A.   I still think it was the 6th.

         15       Q.   But in your statement you said the 4th. It is

         16  an important date, I assume.

         17       A.   Perhaps she was killed on the 4th and we

         18  buried her on the 6th in the hospital, but I still

         19  think it was the 6th.

         20       Q.   Are you sure?

         21       A.   I am sure.

         22       Q.   What are you sure of? Was it the 4th or the

         23  6th?

         24       A.   The 6th.

         25       Q.   You are sure it was the 6th?

Page 830

          1       A.   The 6th.

          2       Q.   Then please explain why, in your previous

          3  statement, you said the 4th.

          4       A.   You see, in many statements the translator

          5  may not translate things correctly.

          6       Q.   But Mr. Berghofer, you signed that statement.

          7  Surely you know what you say and what you sign.

          8       A.   Yes, of course I know what I say, but it is

          9  not my way to sign things. Maybe here, now, someone may

         10  be wrong. There are three dates I remember well. When

         11  I got to Ovcara, when I returned from Mitrovica and

         12  when that woman was killed.

         13       Q.   In your statement it says that the statement

         14  was read out to you before by the investigator, before

         15  you signed it.

         16       A.   Yes, he did read it.

         17       Q.   Why did you sign it if it was not correct?

         18       A.   Well, perhaps I was tired or simply I did not

         19  follow carefully.

         20       Q.   Does it occur to you that you mix up dates

         21  and times?

         22       A.   Well, not so much dates, and some dates

         23  I really do not remember but certain specific dates

         24  I do remember well.

         25       Q.   Mr. Berghofer, you said that you knew

Page 831

          1  Dokmanovic only by sight.

          2       A.   Yes.

          3       Q.   Does that mean that Dokmanovic does not know

          4  you?

          5       A.   Probably not.

          6       Q.   If you are wrong with dates could you not mix

          7  up faces too? Maybe somebody reminded you that this was

          8  Dokmanovic. Somebody told you.

          9       A.   No. I know roughly 20,000 people. I know the

         10  names of many. Others I do not. Him I know by sight.

         11       Q.   Did anyone remind you of this? Refresh your

         12  memory?

         13       A.   That was not necessary. I was active in

         14  football and I know that he played football too.

         15       Q.   You lost your daughter, you lost your wife,

         16  you lost your property, your life was in jeopardy. You

         17  are in a difficult situation. You are being beaten. You

         18  cannot remember exactly when your wife was killed. How

         19  can you expect me to believe that you will remember

         20  a person you do not know?

         21       A.   Let me tell you straight away, it was only in

         22  Zagreb that I learned that my daughter was missing.

         23  I left and my daughter was in another house. She was

         24  married. I left that house on 24th in the night when

         25  they fired at it, and I learned that my daughter was

Page 832

          1  missing in 1993, I think. Some people from Vukovar came

          2  and said that my daughter was not there, then I thought

          3  to myself, "that must be a mistake". I do not know

          4  whether that is of any interest to you but let me tell

          5  you, I was divorced from their mother in 1981 and this

          6  other lady that got killed, I considered her to be my

          7  wife, though we were not married.  So it was only in

          8  1993 in Zagreb that I learned that my older daughter,

          9  who is one year senior to the younger one, was missing.

         10       Q.   You had no contact with her until 1993 and

         11  you did not look for her?

         12       A.   I could not. There was no communication with

         13  Vukovar. It is only now for the past six months.

         14       Q.   But there was the Red Cross and other

         15  organisations. Very well.

         16       A.   I did not mention, sir, that while I was in

         17  Mitrovica, my mother was in hospital. She fell, being

         18  short she had a broken hip and she died. It is

         19  something I did not tell you, and who could find one's

         20  daughter out of the 300,000 exiles that Croatia had, or

         21  something like that.

         22       Q.   You mentioned a name called Duvnjak and that

         23  someone shot at him. Let me remind you.

         24       A.   Sir, I am here under oath. I did not say he

         25  was shot at.

Page 833

          1       Q.   I am sorry, maybe I misunderstood. Will you

          2  please describe once again what you said to avoid all

          3  misunderstanding?

          4       A.   Very well. Around the 19th November, and

          5  I must be very careful with the minutes so as not to

          6  make any mistakes.

          7       Q.   Do not worry.

          8       A.   Well, anyway, on 19th in the afternoon this

          9  receptionist from the hospital came. His name is Bogdan

         10  Kuzmic. I just remembered, luckily, his name, and he

         11  entered a car. From the room I was in I looked out and

         12  I saw on a chair this Duvnjak sitting on a chair as

         13  a wounded person. He was about 12 metres away from me,

         14  and I just heard him shrug his shoulders and say, "what

         15  else could I do?".  That is all I heard.

         16       Q.   When did you see him for the last time? Was

         17  he taken away then?

         18       A.   I did not see him being taken away. I just

         19  saw Kuzmic talking to him.

         20       Q.   You do not know what happened to him

         21  afterwards, this Duvnjak? Is he a Croat or a Serb?

         22       A.   I think he was a Croat. He worked in the

         23  police.

         24       Q.   You told us yesterday that at one point in

         25  time you saw Slavko Dokmanovic and you were not quite

Page 834

          1  sure what time it was. It was 2 pm, right?

          2       A.   It was closer to 3 pm.

          3       Q.   But it was not 4 pm?

          4       A.   Well, it was between 3 and 4 pm. I really

          5  cannot tell you exactly.

          6       Q.   Was it daylight and people are still coming

          7  off the buses at that time?

          8       A.   Yes.

          9       Q.   Will you please tell us once again what

         10  Slavko Dokmanovic was wearing. Could you start from the

         11  bottom?

         12       A.   He had a complete pilot's uniform of the

         13  former Yugoslav army.

         14       Q.   What was he wearing on his feet?

         15       A.   Normal regular shoes.

         16       Q.   Not boots, shoes?

         17       A.   Shoes, as far as I could see.

         18       Q.   Then I assume he was wearing trousers. What

         19  colour were the trousers?

         20       A.   Dark blue, navy blue.

         21       Q.   And then what else?

         22       A.   Then he had a kind of wind jacket,

         23  a wind breaker, a kind of synthetic material. It was not

         24  buttoned up.

         25       Q.   You are using a local term, "basket jacket",

Page 835

          1  that people do not know. It comes from basketball.

          2       A.   Well, very well, a wind jacket then.

          3       Q.   With a zip? How did it button up in front?

          4       A.   In front. Yes, with a zip. You know what that

          5  is, do you not?

          6       Q.   Yes, of course I do. So a wind jacket from

          7  a nylon material with a zip in front.

          8       A.   Can you hear me now?

          9       Q.   I apologise. You said it was a nylon

         10  wind jacket with a zip in dark blue.

         11       A.   No. The suit, the pilot's suit was dark blue.

         12  You know that very well, what the pilot's uniform was

         13  like in the Yugoslav army. They differed.

         14       Q.   Very well. I have understood you, but then

         15  the wind jacket with a zip. What colour was it?

         16       A.   Well, it was more like black, but it was

         17  still darker, dark blue.

         18       Q.   Was he wearing it? Were his hands in the

         19  sleeves?

         20       A.   Yes, he was wearing it, but it was not

         21  buttoned up.

         22       Q.   Could you see his shoulders?

         23       A.   Yes.

         24       Q.   Were there any insignia on the shoulders?

         25       A.   I did not see.

Page 836

          1       Q.   Underneath that wind jacket?  He must have

          2  been wearing something underneath.

          3       A.   Yes, he was, he was wearing his jacket. Or

          4  the blouse.

          5       Q.   And below that blouse?

          6       A.   A shirt and a tie.

          7       Q.   What colour?

          8       A.   The shirt was blue. A bit lighter blue.

          9       Q.   Was he wearing anything on his hat?

         10       A.   No. He was bareheaded.

         11       Q.   All that time --

         12       A.   I could not tell you --

         13       Q.   But while you were looking at him?

         14       A.   I was not looking at him all the time, sir.

         15  He was inside. He was maybe inside for four or five

         16  minutes, maybe 10 minutes. I pointed out in my

         17  statement that I was not sure for how long they were

         18  beating this man. Later on I realised it was Sinisa

         19  Glavasevic.

         20       Q.   You said it was four or five minutes but how

         21  long were you looking at him like you are looking at us

         22  now?

         23       A.   Well, roughly for the same time, same amount

         24  of time. I cannot really count the minutes. I cannot

         25  tell you with absolute precision.

Page 837

          1       Q.   Very well, but throughout that time while you

          2  were looking at him, he did not have anything on his

          3  head. That is my question.

          4       A.   As far as I can recall, he had nothing.

          5       Q.   Was he without a hat when he addressed the

          6  Cakalic?

          7       A.   I really could not tell you. When I saw him

          8  as far as I can remember his cap was attached on his

          9  right side.

         10       Q.   Attached to what? Attached to what?

         11       A.   As if it was in the pocket of his wind jacket.

         12  Or maybe at his belt here in front.

         13       Q.   So he had a belt too, an army belt?

         14       A.   No, a belt, an ordinary belt.

         15       Q.   I know the difference, I am asking you

         16  whether he had a military belt or an ordinary belt.

         17       A.   He had an ordinary trouser belt.

         18       Q.   So he had the Tito cap which was attached to

         19  his belt on his trousers?

         20       A.   Yes.

         21       Q.   Let me ask you now, in all the statements you

         22  made, you never mentioned this Tito cap, nor any

         23  wind jacket or basket jacket. Why did you not?

         24       A.   No one asked me about Dokmanovic. It was only

         25  me, myself who volunteered the information that he was

Page 838

          1  there. There may be other things that one could not

          2  remember.

          3       Q.   But no one asked you about the wind jacket

          4  yesterday and you spoke about it now. How come you did

          5  not before?

          6       A.   Perhaps I just did not remember or people did

          7  not enquire.

          8       Q.   Well, how come you mentioned it yesterday?

          9       A.   Well, no one asked me about shoes yesterday.

         10  You did today, so it depends on what questions one is

         11  asked.

         12       Q.   In the statement you made before this

         13  tribunal you said that you saw him at 2 pm.

         14       A.   Sir, I told you that I cannot guess the exact

         15  time, but I am quite sure that when we left Ovcara it

         16  was getting dark because the lights were switched on.

         17       Q.   That was when you were leaving, but when you

         18  were arriving?

         19       A.   When we were arriving it was full daylight.

         20       Q.   In answer to a question by the Prosecutor you

         21  said it was 2 pm. Shall I read it to you?

         22       A.   You can read it, yes. We reached Ovcara

         23  somewhere around 2 pm, and then it took time for people

         24  to get beaten and I told you, that took some time. I do

         25  not know why you are so interested in these times.

Page 839

          1            MR. FILA:  Let me read it to you:

          2            "About 2 pm the reservists..."

          3            "The reservist", you said, "Slavko

          4  Dokmanovic". Today you said he is a JNA officer:

          5            "... who was president of the municipality

          6  entered the hangar and said to Emil, 'you are here

          7  inspector, too...' "

          8            MR. NIEMANN:  Your Honours, may I refer

          9  whether counsel is referring to the transcript or to

         10  a statement because I am sure he said to the witness

         11  that it was a transcript of yesterday's proceedings

         12  that he was quoting from.

         13            MR. FILA:  No, not yesterday's transcript, but

         14  the statement of the witness. The statement made to the

         15  investigator Mr. Curtis, the same gentleman who arrested

         16  Dokmanovic.

         17            It is his statement and it is a part of the

         18  record, if I have understood well.

         19            MR. NIEMANN:  Well if Mr. Fila would allow me,

         20  I am merely saying that it should be made clear to the

         21  witness that it is not his testimony yesterday, but in

         22  his previous statement.

         23            MR. FILA:  That is what I said, that I was

         24  invoking his statement, and that is what I am reading

         25  from. I do not know what page it is though. I will tell

Page 840

          1  you right now.

          2            JUDGE CASSESE:  Mr. Fila, actually, honestly,

          3  I too misunderstood you. I thought you were speaking of

          4  the transcript, so therefore it was a very good

          5  clarification, a point of clarification, so it is clear

          6  that you are now mentioning his statement and not the

          7  transcript.

          8            MR. FILA:  Just to be quite clear, I am

          9  talking about two statements. First is the statement he

         10  gave to Kevin Curtis, page 7 -- is it 7? Yes. Page 7.

         11  It is the penultimate page ... of the translation?  Of

         12  the translation.  Stevan Zoric, Zlatko Gradin are

         13  talking, and then he says:

         14            "Around 1400 hours the reservists...",

         15  et cetera, et cetera.  That is what I read.

         16            Then there is another statement he gave,

         17  which caused this confusion. According to Rule 61, he

         18  was speaking before Judge Claude Jorda and after that

         19  the indictment followed. This is again the penultimate

         20  page. He says:

         21            "Around 2 o'clock this afternoon the

         22  reservist whom I knew who was president of the

         23  municipality, Slavko Dokmanovic, entered the hangar and

         24  told Emil..."

         25            Et cetera, et cetera.

Page 841

          1            So before he spoke yesterday he made two

          2  statements and he said, "before 1400 hours", and that

          3  is why I am asking at what time, because time is very

          4  important for me and you know why.

          5       A.   May I answer?

          6       Q.   Please do. Is it around 1400 hours as you

          7  said before? Or what time?

          8       A.   Well, once again, could you read out quite

          9  clearly or say what I am supposed to answer to?

         10       Q.   Are your two statements true, one that you

         11  gave to the investigator, Mr. Curtis, and the other one

         12  before the Chamber of Judge Jorda, that this was at

         13  1400 hours, around 1400 hours on 20th November when you

         14  saw Slavko Dokmanovic, the reservist, as you put it?

         15       A.   Sir, please listen to what I am saying.

         16  I could not look at my watch any more at that point,

         17  because I did not have a watch at that point. First of

         18  all, you forgot that I lost my watch because Goran

         19  Mugosa took it away from me. That is one thing, and

         20  secondly, perhaps there is a misunderstanding here. All

         21  of them were in JNA reservist uniforms, except that

         22  Slavko Dokmanovic was wearing an airman's uniform,

         23  a blue uniform. Now listen to me carefully, this

         24  reservist, this reservist, what I said, this did not

         25  refer to Slavko Dokmanovic because Slavko Dokmanovic

Page 842

          1  has his name and surname and this reservist was

          2  a bigger man, but his name is not there because I do

          3  not know his name, and that is why I emphasise this,

          4  and the, "and the reservist", and this reservist is

          5  probably one who had a whistle, so perhaps that is

          6  where there is this small misunderstanding. It is not

          7  that I called Slavko Dokmanovic a reservist, perhaps

          8  the reservist is the one who had a whistle.

          9            I am emphasising that there were 11, 12 or 13

         10  of them. How can I tell in two groups? One was indoors,

         11  one was outdoors and then a reservist walked in, and he

         12  blows a whistle and he says, "that is enough". One

         13  group gets out but what does that matter because

         14  another group walks in, so again, I imagine it is this

         15  lack of understanding that we have.

         16            MR. FILA:  Your Honour, please, let us not

         17  continue this. Could the witness himself read what he

         18  said to Mr. Curtis, and then at the hearing before Judge

         19  Jorda? In both areas he said that Slavko Dokmanovic is

         20  a reservist and that this is at 1400 hours and now

         21  before you he said that this was not so.  The only way

         22  in which we can ascertain what he said is in this way,

         23  I think. Can you read it?

         24       A.   I can read it.

         25            MR. NIEMANN:  Your Honour, I object.  This

Page 843

          1  question has been asked and answered at least three or

          2  four times. The witness has given his explanation.

          3  Mr. Fila has made it clear that the transcript of the 61

          4  hearing and of the statement is apparently inconsistent

          5  with that. That has been made clear. That is the end of

          6  the matter, your Honours. We could go on for the next

          7  week doing this but we will get no further. The

          8  question has been asked and has been answered and

          9  I object to any further questions on the same topic.

         10            JUDGE CASSESE:  Mr. Niemann, however, I do not

         11  see anything against just asking the -- anything

         12  against the motion by the Defence counsel. I do not see

         13  why the witness should not be allowed to just read out

         14  the two lines to which Defence counsel is referring and

         15  then we will move on to a different question.

         16            MR. NIEMANN:  If your Honour pleases.

         17            JUDGE CASSESE:  Why do you not give the page?

         18            MR. FILA:  Please, could he read his statement

         19  in the Serbian, the Croat language which he speaks?

         20            This is page 7. This section up to here. Just

         21  one line. One line.

         22            Please read exactly what it says there.

         23       A.   All right. All right. I do not see that there

         24  is any problem involved.

         25       Q.   Please read it.

Page 844

          1       A.   I have read it. And so, after all Slavko

          2  Dokmanovic is a reservist too, but if I understood

          3  Mr. Fila correctly, or perhaps --

          4       Q.   Perhaps did he not understand me. Perhaps

          5  could you read it out loud?

          6       A.   Well, no problem, yes:

          7            "Around 1400 hours the reservist Slavko

          8  Dokmanovic who was president of the municipality..."

          9       Q.   Thank you. Nothing else is needed.

         10       A.   I do not see any -- well, I mean, you are an

         11  expert so you know, but for me he is a reservist too.

         12       Q.   "For me he is a reservist too". Two minutes

         13  ago you said he was not a reservist.

         14       A.   Oh, come on sir, Mr. Fila, I do not know how

         15  old he is and if he does not belong to the regular army

         16  in our country in Yugoslavia, it was called

         17  a reservist. He was over 25 years of age and he was

         18  wearing a uniform.

         19       Q.   If it means anything to you, there was never

         20  an airman's uniform of the kind you are describing in

         21  the JNA.

         22       A.   I did my service in the Yugoslav army, and

         23  I can tell you that this uniform exists until the

         24  present day. Please explain to the honourable judges

         25  what a Yugoslav airman's uniform is like, then.

Page 845

          1       Q.   There are quite a few differences, you know.

          2  I do not want to tire the court with that any longer.

          3            For example, yesterday you say between

          4  19th and 20th between 1:15 and 3:15 gunshots were

          5  heard.

          6       A.   Okay.

          7       Q.   And in your statement before Kevin Curtis you

          8  said that a few bursts of gunfire were heard. There is

          9  a difference, right?

         10       A.   Mr. Fila, you know very well what bursts of

         11  gunfire are. That is from an automatic rifle and I am

         12  telling you again, I cannot guess the exact minute, but

         13  I can tell you that 18 shots from one pistol were fired

         14  in about an hour or two, but with a short break. Six

         15  bullets is one pistol, but that is one pistol, not one

         16  burst of gunfire because, you see, there can be these

         17  mistakes that the interpreters or translators make and

         18  a burst of gunfire is from an automatic rifle so you

         19  cannot tell how many shots are being fired but from

         20  a pistol when you hear this whistling sound, six of

         21  them, and then there is a break of 40 or 50 minutes --

         22  again, please do not ask me exactly what the minutes

         23  involved were but again, you could hear from -- from

         24  the same pistol you could hear six bullets and then

         25  again six.

Page 846

          1       Q.   I really do not understand you. I am saying

          2  what you said in your statement, "a few bursts of

          3  gunfire", and yesterday you said, "shots from

          4  a pistol". These several bursts of gunfire of 18

          5  bullets and shots from a pistol, is that all the same

          6  to you?

          7       A.   Mr. Fila, you know what the mistake is there?

          8  Many of these translators, perhaps it is all the same

          9  to them whether we are talking about burst of gunfire,

         10  individual shots, but you know exactly what a burst of

         11  gunfire is and you know that individual shots are not

         12  a burst of gunfire, so what I am telling you now is

         13  from a pistol.

         14       Q.   So what you said in the statement, "a few

         15  burst of gunfire of 18", is not correct.

         16       A.   No, no, no. It is from one identical pistol.

         17       Q.   I am sorry for tiring you, honourable judges,

         18  but we are trying to ascertain how reliable the witness

         19  is. I am going to read something else from his

         20  statement. Yesterday you said that Slavko Dokmanovic

         21  came in five or six minutes after you. Yesterday.

         22       A.   Okay. Okay.

         23       Q.   And first he hit a wounded man.

         24       A.   Yes, Dado Dukic.

         25       Q.   Then he hit a little boy.

Page 847

          1       A.   Yes.

          2       Q.   And then you said that this was the son of

          3  Baumgartner.

          4       A.   I am not sure but I did not know the boy, but

          5  his father was looking for him so, you know. Even now

          6  I am not too sure it is the young Baumgartner.

          7       Q.   What do you mean, "I am not too..."?

          8       A.   Well, this was simply a young boy of 17 or

          9  18.

         10       Q.   Was it Baumgartner or not?

         11       A.   No, Mr. Fila, I was not sure yesterday and

         12  I am not sure today that this is Baumgartner. The other

         13  day I came to realise what it was, but it was a young

         14  man and I cannot guarantee it is Baumgartner.

         15       Q.   In the statement you made to Mr. Curtis you do

         16  not mention this young boy at all. How come the young

         17  boy appeared just now?

         18       A.   Well, you see, I made this statement and it

         19  was not put in. I tell you, many of these translators,

         20  if they are not translating well, it is only natural

         21  that I get into this kind of situation. There is

         22  something wrong, but what is correct is what I am

         23  telling you now.

         24       Q.   All right. Yesterday you also said that after

         25  that, first he hit the wounded man, then the young boy

Page 848

          1  and then Cakalic.

          2       A.   No, he did not hit Cakalic.

          3       Q.   And then he said, "where are you, inspector"?

          4  Is that correct?

          5       A.   Yes.

          6       Q.   Is the sequence correct?

          7       A.   He said, "Oh, Mr. Inspector, you are here

          8  too".

          9       Q.   At the 61(B) hearing, you said first he hit

         10  the young boy and then the wounded man.

         11       A.   No, Mr. Fila.

         12       Q.   No?

         13       A.   No. First Dado Dukic, who I know very well,

         14  and then he hit the young man.

         15       Q.   This is your statement at the Rule 61(B)

         16  hearing. You said:

         17            "First the young man and then him."

         18       A.   I am telling you once again, you know that

         19  many of these things depend on the translator and

         20  interpreters. Perhaps it was all the same to the

         21  translator whom -- state first.

         22       Q.   This is a transcript from the hearing. It is

         23  not that he puts someone first or second, what is

         24  translated is what you said.

         25       A.   Do you think that now perhaps no mistakes are

Page 849

          1  being made in what I am saying?

          2            MR. NIEMANN:  I apprehend that the witness is

          3  confused as to what transcripts are being referred to.

          4  It may be that the witness has no idea what a Rule 61

          5  transcript is. It is unfair to put questions to the

          6  witness if he is confused and does not understand what

          7  is being said.

          8            JUDGE CASSESE:  May I appeal to Mr. Fila maybe

          9  to move on to other questions?

         10            MR. FILA:  In the statement you made to

         11  Mr. Curtis, you know that you gave a statement to

         12  Mr. Curtis and you know what I am talking about. Please

         13  tell me, you said that first he greeted Cakalic , "Oh,

         14  you are here too, inspector", and then he hit the

         15  wounded man and you did not mention the young man at

         16  all. How do you explain that? I hope that you know what

         17  I am referring to now so that the Prosecutor would not

         18  have to intervene.

         19       A.   Well, listen, let me tell you. I am claiming

         20  now, too, that first he hit Dado Dukic and then when he

         21  hit him, he hit his head against the wall and the man

         22  screamed.

         23       Q.   I am speaking of the order.

         24       A.   Well, look, I have my own order. If the

         25  translator places one name first and another name

Page 850

          1  second it is not my fault.

          2            MR. FILA:  With your permission I shall read

          3  this to him.

          4            JUDGE CASSESE:  I am sorry, can you tell us

          5  what you are going to read now?

          6            MR. FILA:  I am sorry, now I am going to read

          7  the transcript of the Rule 61 hearing from the

          8  27th March 1996 on page -- it is the Serbian

          9  translation, the Croatian translation so it is hard to

         10  tell.

         11            Now, you said:

         12            "Since I was in the fifth bus which was the

         13  penultimate one, when I enter the hangar, when I ran

         14  into it I saw a young man running into the hangar after

         15  me. He was moving in the same direction as Dokmanovic

         16  was, and he looked quite nervous. He had his hands on

         17  his back. He was walking up and down in the hangar and

         18  when this young man ran by him, he jumped up like

         19  a football player and he managed to hit the young man

         20  in the face with his foot, so he kicked the young man

         21  in the face."

         22            Is that correct?

         23       A.   No, it is not.

         24       Q.   I shall continue:

         25            "About 10 minutes later, or perhaps a bit

Page 851

          1  less, Dr. Dado Dukic was there. Dado Dukic was wounded

          2  in the legs. He was huddling by the wall and Dokmanovic

          3  came and kicked him a volley."

          4            You remember what a volley in soccer football

          5  is. Do you understand that this differs from what you

          6  have been saying?

          7       A.   Mr. Fila, can I answer that?

          8       Q.   Please do, that is why I am reading it out to

          9  you.

         10       A.   Listen to me, you see where the mistake is?

         11  It is not Dr. Dado Dukic, it is the son of Dr. Dukic. The

         12  son of Dr. Dukic, Dado Dukic. Do you see where the

         13  mistake is? I am telling you again. If a translator

         14  cares about every letter and if a translator is not

         15  very careful, a mistake can be made. As far as this

         16  young man is concerned, you used something different.

         17  I was already in the hangar when the young man was

         18  running in. It is not that the young man was running

         19  after me. I was already in the hangar when the young

         20  man ran into the hangar by Slavko Dokmanovic.

         21            It is very simple in soccer football. You

         22  call it scissors, you know, when he jumps up with both

         23  legs. So that is how the young man was moving.

         24       Q.   I am just trying to tell you that there are

         25  differences in your statements and in the order

Page 852

          1  ascertained.

          2       A.   You see, Dr. Dukic, he was not a doctor.  It

          3  was not Dr. Dukic who was there. That is why I have to

          4  amend this. Perhaps I did not know -- perhaps this

          5  translator, you know, there are different translators.

          6  Now, you and I did not know what a "suska" was,

          7  a synthetic wind jacket was, and now the gentlemen here

          8  do not know what a wind breaker is.

          9       Q.   Oh yes, a basketball jacket.

         10       A.   Yes. You know, this was an expression we used

         11  in Yugoslavia.

         12       Q.   Yes of course I know it, but I am talking

         13  about the order. It is not important whether Dado Dukic

         14  is a doctor or not. It is the order that you have been

         15  changing from one statement to another. You have been

         16  giving a different order, a different sequence of

         17  events.

         18       A.   I am not perplexed at all, Mr. Fila.

         19            JUDGE CASSESE:  Mr. Fila, now, you have made

         20  your point and with all due respect I would like to,

         21  again, call upon you to move on to a different

         22  question. It is very clear. You have made your point,

         23  your objection, the witness has given us an account of

         24  what happened according to him and we can now, as

         25  I say, move on to a different point.

Page 853

          1            MR. FILA:  I am sorry, just a minute, please.

          2  I am just trying to check whether I have forgotten

          3  something. I think I will be finished very soon.

          4            Definitely, I am only interested in the order

          5  of the buses. What bus were you on, who was sitting

          6  front of you, who was sitting behind you and do you

          7  know where Cakalic was sitting?

          8       A.   All right, Mr. Fila. I have to go back in time

          9  about seven years now, right? You see, many people have

         10  lost their lives, and now you are asking me where I was

         11  sitting. I am overjoyed to have remembered that Hidek

         12  was with me, that Professor Licina was with me, and

         13  Nurse Biba's husband. What would happen if I never knew

         14  them, just like I did not know many people at Ovcara?

         15       Q.   Not to keep you much longer, we are all

         16  pretty tired now, was Cakalic with you on the same bus

         17  and where was he and where was he sitting?

         18       A.   As far as I remember he was on the right-hand

         19  side.

         20       Q.   On the same bus?

         21       A.   Just a minute, please, let me think. Yes,

         22  yes, as far as I can remember, in the same bus. In the

         23  barracks I was on the left-hand side, the left-hand

         24  side, and then when we came I was on the opposite side

         25  of the hangar in Ovcara.

Page 854

          1       Q.   I am asking you about the bus and what bus it

          2  was.

          3       A.   I think it was the fourth bus.

          4       Q.   Because in your statements it says the fifth

          5  or the sixth.

          6       A.   No. There were six buses altogether.

          7       Q.   You said the third and the fifth and the

          8  sixth and now you have said the fourth bus. And Cakalic

          9  was with you on the same bus?

         10       A.   Yes, and Damjan Samardzic too.

         11       Q.   No, I am interested in Cakalic.

         12            Another thing, the paramilitaries you saw in

         13  the hospital. Did they go to the barracks and to Ovcara

         14  too?

         15       A.   No, they did not.

         16       Q.   Or did these people change?

         17       A.   Well, the next day the regular army was there

         18  too.

         19       Q.   Perhaps we did not understand each other

         20  correctly. On the 20th when you were taken out of the

         21  hospital, and when you were boarding the buses, I am

         22  talking about the paramilitaries, you are arriving at

         23  the barracks and then you go to Ovcara. Did you notice

         24  that these were the same people, the same faces at all

         25  three key points, namely the hospital, the barracks and

Page 855

          1  Ovcara? Among others, I mean...

          2       A.   Mr. Fila, you know, when it is easy, it is

          3  easy, when I know someone, and then I can tell whether

          4  he is a paramilitary. I only saw Bogdan Kuzmic there in

          5  a uniform of a JNA reservist, and then I simply did not

          6  see these other people whom I did not know. I really do

          7  not know them.

          8            (10.15 am)

          9       Q.   When you returned to Velepromet, this is

         10  truly my last question, did you see people in civilian

         11  clothes, perhaps? People from Vukovar?

         12       A.   Yes, I did. First of all, I saw the mother of

         13  Goran Mugosa Kustro. She was the first one, she is my

         14  neighbour.

         15       Q.   Goran Kustro is the one who took your money,

         16  right?

         17       A.   Goran Mugosa Kustro.

         18       Q.   You spoke about him yesterday. He took your

         19  money.

         20       A.   Yes, yes, yes, his mother. She is a neighbour

         21  by the store.

         22       Q.   The one who took your money and not your

         23  watch?

         24       A.   He took the watch too, but accidentally the

         25  pocket watch stayed. I imagine he had had enough. I did

Page 856

          1  not really have that much money.

          2            MR. FILA:  Thank you, your Honour, that will

          3  do.

          4            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you, Mr. Fila.

          5  Mr. Niemann?

          6                 Re-examined by MR. NIEMANN

          7            MR. NIEMANN:  Mr. Berghofer, when you were

          8  answering Mr. Fila's questions about times, particularly

          9  at the JNA barracks and then subsequently at the Ovcara

         10  farm, were you giving Mr. Fila your best estimate of the

         11  times as you can now recall them?

         12       A.   Well, roughly.

         13       Q.   Thank you. Now, Mr. Fila also asked you

         14  questions about you being taken out of the hangar and

         15  I think you said when you went outside it was light.

         16  How long did you stay outside the hangar before you got

         17  on to the combi-bus which took you back into Vukovar?

         18  Can you remember? If you cannot remember it does not

         19  matter.

         20       A.   Yes, sir. I remember quite well. This was

         21  a Polo car and we were outside for about 35 minutes.

         22  Well, you know, it is easiest for me to say when we

         23  left, that is, when night falls, around 5 o'clock, but

         24  we were outside about 35 minutes or perhaps even 40

         25  minutes. This was before night fell.

Page 857

          1       Q.   Thank you. And finally, you were asked

          2  a number of questions by Mr. Fila about the clothes that

          3  Mr. Dokmanovic was wearing at the time. Is

          4  Mr. Dokmanovic's face familiar to you?

          5       A.   Very familiar.

          6       Q.   And is there any doubt in your mind that the

          7  person you saw there at the time was Mr. Dokmanovic? At

          8  the Ovcara farm?

          9       A.   That could not happen. That could not happen.

         10  Because if you have known a man for over twenty

         11  years and, you know, there are some people you cannot

         12  remember even if you have seen them three times.

         13       Q.   So, do you have any doubt or not? Perhaps you

         14  could just answer my question about the man you saw

         15  there on that day.

         16       A.   I am sure. I am sure it was Slavko

         17  Dokmanovic.

         18            MR. NIEMANN:  Thank you. No further questions,

         19  your Honour.

         20            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you. Mr. Berghofer, I am

         21  sorry, you must be rather tired and of course this may

         22  be emotionally involved and so I am so sorry, I need to

         23  ask you one or two questions, if you do not mind.

         24            The first question.

         25       A.   Please ask.

Page 858

          1            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you. In the statement

          2  you made when you were interviewed in June 1995, do you

          3  remember, by a Tribunal's investigator, at one

          4  point, you said, and I quote your words, you said:

          5            "Dokmanovic was pacing up and down inside

          6  the hangar whilst people were being beaten and I very

          7  much got the impression that he was the person in

          8  charge there, although I heard him give no orders."

          9            Now, how did you make -- this is my question;

         10  how did you make this impression, that Mr. Dokmanovic

         11  was the person in charge within the hangar? On the

         12  basis of what elements or facts did you come to the

         13  conclusion that he was the person in charge?

         14       A.   Well, sir, in a company, a worker has to

         15  respect his manager. That is, for example, the

         16  difference between myself and Slavko Dokmanovic. There

         17  were five steps between us. He was a politician, a top

         18  man there. He was president of the municipality. Also,

         19  you know, those boys, those reservists that he was

         20  there with, I did not hear him issue orders, but my

         21  assumption is that if he is the president of the

         22  municipality, his word would have been taken for what

         23  it is worth, had he said, "do not beat them any more".

         24  I did not hear him say a word, issue a single order,

         25  and I am telling you now, too, as a person, I could not

Page 859

          1  say all that freely, that he is not all that

          2  responsible for everything that happened there.

          3            JUDGE CASSESE:  This is your inference, but

          4  I, again if you do not mind, I would like to insist on

          5  this question.

          6            So you said, "my assumption was that he was

          7  a person in authority and command", but did you infer

          8  this from any, say, gesture made -- from the way he

          9  was behaving within the hangar, not outside the hangar,

         10  within the hangar. Forget about his previous status,

         11  his status as a president of the assembly of Vukovar

         12  municipality. Now, try to focus on what he actually

         13  did, and on how he behaved in the hangar. Did he behave

         14  in such a manner that -- you might infer from that,

         15  that he was really in command, that everybody would

         16  have followed his orders, had he given orders?

         17       A.   Well, I am telling you again my opinion

         18  is that he did have an authority there. I mean, that he

         19  did have authority over the reservists. You know, like

         20  a boss, like a leader. Personally, if I were in the

         21  place of these reservists, I would have acted the same

         22  way, because I respect people who are above me. I think

         23  that he did have an authority of his own over them if

         24  this is clear to you, but if I did not respond

         25  properly, please tell me.

Page 860

          1            JUDGE CASSESE:  No, thank you. Thank you for

          2  your answer, and if you do not mind, I move to my

          3  second and last question.

          4            Now, when you were, as you said in your

          5  statement, saved, so taken out of the hangar, separated

          6  by somebody from the other people who were inside, you

          7  were taken out and were you by yourself or were you in

          8  a small group of persons who, like you, had been,

          9  "saved", by somebody inside when you were

         10  standing outside the hangar after the beating? Were you

         11  alone? Or were you in a group of persons?

         12  (redacted)

         13  (redacted)

         14  (redacted)

         15  (redacted) I would never recognise

         16  him again. At that time he was about 18 years old. He

         17  was not that tall. And, and, and this (redacted) was

         18  there too. I did not recognise him either. I could not

         19  remember anyone else.

         20            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you, and when you were

         21  with this group of people what happened before you were

         22  taken away from that place and transferred to

         23  Velepromet? Did you meet or did you get in touch with

         24  any JNA officer before you left that place to go by bus

         25  or by some sort of van to Velepromet?

Page 861

          1       A.   I think that I gave these particulars, the

          2  name and surname, but I am not too sure any more,

          3  honestly. I mean, my knees were shaking but there was

          4  someone who was taking our particulars, you know, sir,

          5  it is a bit late now, and going back to all this time,

          6  but I think that I gave the name and surname. As far as

          7  I know, none of them had any insignia of the former

          8  Yugoslav army.

          9            JUDGE CASSESE:  Were you interrogated by some

         10  military person, whether or not he was wearing any

         11  insignia, whether or not he was an officer, the group

         12  of six or seven people of which you were a member? Was

         13  this group interrogated by an officer, or a military

         14  man before you boarded the van to go to Velepromet?, if

         15  you do not remember, do not worry.

         16       A.   I think we only gave our names and surnames.

         17  I personally was not asked a thing. I was just asked

         18  what my surname was. I gave my name and surname.

         19            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you. I wonder whether

         20  there is any objection to the witness being released.

         21  Prosecutor?

         22            MR. NIEMANN:  Your Honours, we would ask that

         23  the witness not be released, but there be no

         24  constraints on him leaving the jurisdiction, leaving

         25  the precincts of the court and returning to Yugoslavia,

Page 862

          1  but whilst the outstanding exhibit is still there, we

          2  would ask that he not be formally released.

          3            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you. Mr. Fila? Do you

          4  agree? There is a problem. I do not know whether my

          5  learned colleague understood me. A name was mentioned

          6  that should not have been mentioned.

          7            MR. NIEMANN:  Yes, your Honour. We ask for

          8  a redaction, page 37, line 14.

          9            JUDGE CASSESE:  All right. Mr. Berghofer,

         10  thank you so much for coming here to testify and you

         11  may now leave the courtroom.

         12       A.   Thank you.

         13                   (The witness withdrew)

         14            MR. NIEMANN:  Your Honours, I am instructed

         15  that there is another redaction, please, at page 41,

         16  lines 18-21, if your Honours please... your Honours, it

         17  may be that there is a confusion between the pages.

         18  I think perhaps the Registrar might be able to

         19  ascertain that. I think it is probably page 41, 18-21.

         20            THE REGISTRAR:  That is the only redaction?

         21            MR. NIEMANN:  Yes, yes.

         22            JUDGE CASSESE:  Mr. Niemann, are you going to

         23  call the next witness?

         24            MR. WILLIAMSON:  Your Honour, at this time we

         25  would call Emil Cakalic.

Page 863

     1                (The witness entered court)

          2            JUDGE CASSESE:  Good morning, Mr. Cakalic. May

          3  I ask you to make the formal declaration?

          4                    EMIL CAKALIC (sworn)

          5            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you. You may be seated.

          6                 Examined by MR. WILLIAMSON

          7       Q.   Sir, would you please state your full name

          8  for the record?

          9       A.   Emil Cakalic.

         10       Q.   In June of 1995, Mr. Cakalic, do you recall

         11  meeting with Mr. Vladimir Dzuro, an investigator from

         12  the Tribunal Office of the Prosecutor?

         13       A.   I do.

         14       Q.   At that time, did you give a statement to him

         15  which was taken down in the English language?

         16       A.   Yes, I did.

         17       Q.   Was that statement subsequently read back to

         18  you by an interpreter into the Croatian language?

         19       A.   It was.

         20       Q.   And did you sign that statement?

         21       A.   I did.

         22            MR. WILLIAMSON:  At that time I would ask that

         23  the witness be shown this document, please. We would

         24  mark this as Prosecutor's exhibit...

         25            THE REGISTRAR:  51.

Page 864

          1            MR. WILLIAMSON:  51.

          2            Again, Mr. Cakalic, is that your signature

          3  that appears on this statement?

          4       A.   It is. Yes.

          5       Q.   Since you have been in The Hague have you had

          6  an opportunity to review a Croatian translation of that

          7  statement?

          8       A.   I have.

          9       Q.   In doing so, did you find two minor errors

         10  which you would like to correct at this time?

         11       A.   I did.

         12            MR. WILLIAMSON:  I am going to direct you to

         13  page 5 of the Croatian version of the statement,

         14  paragraph 4, and can you tell me if you see the errors

         15  that you have recognised? And your Honours, the

         16  corresponding spot in the English version is in the

         17  last paragraph on page 5.

         18            Have you found the errors that you have

         19  pointed out previously?

         20       A.   Yes. It is a question of the strength of the

         21  glasses, so it should be 1:25 on top, and 2:75 for the

         22  lower part of the glasses. The figures should be

         23  inverted.

         24       Q.   And is there anything else in that same

         25  paragraph which you felt needed to be corrected?

Page 865

          1       A.   Yes. It should have said , "he was president

          2  of Vukovar municipality and a member of the Serbian

          3  National Council". The word, "national", has been

          4  omitted.

          5       Q.   Having clarified those two points is your

          6  statement otherwise correct and true to the best of

          7  your knowledge?

          8       A.   It is.

          9            MR. WILLIAMSON:  Your Honours, I would then

         10  tender the English version of the statement as

         11  Prosecutor's Exhibit 51 and the Croatian version as

         12  Prosecutor's Exhibit 51A, both under sale.

         13            JUDGE CASSESE:  Mr. Fila, no objection?

         14            MR. FILA:  No.

         15            JUDGE CASSESE:  Mr. Williamson, what about the

         16  supplement?

         17            MR. WILLIAMSON:  I am getting to that at this

         18  point, your Honour.  I was going to tender that as

         19  a separate exhibit.

         20            MR. FILA:  A question please, your Honour.

         21  What about the supplement that I received last night,

         22  is this part of this exhibit or not?

         23            MR. WILLIAMSON:  No, I am going into that

         24  right now. I will tender that under a separate exhibit

         25  number just for the purposes of clarity, so if one of

Page 866

          1  them is being referred to, we all know which one it is.

          2            MR. FILA:  I apologise. I did not understand

          3  that.

          4            MR. WILLIAMSON:  Mr. Cakalic, in April of 1996

          5  did you again meet with Mr. Dzuro in order to give

          6  a brief supplement to your earlier statement?

          7       A.   I did.

          8       Q.   And was this statement also taken down in the

          9  English language but read back to you in Croatian?

         10       A.   It was.

         11       Q.   At this time I would like to show the witness

         12  this document, and I will mark this as Prosecutor's

         13  Exhibit 52. Do you recognise your signature on the

         14  English version of this document?

         15       A.   Yes, on the left-hand side.

         16       Q.   And have you had an opportunity to review

         17  a Croatian translation of this statement?

         18       A.   Yes, I have.

         19       Q.   Do you believe that it is correct and true to

         20  the best of your knowledge?

         21       A.   Yes.

         22            MR. WILLIAMSON:  I would then tender this

         23  supplemental statement as Prosecutor's Exhibit 52 and

         24  the Croatian translation of it as Prosecutor's Exhibit

         25  52A, both under seal.

Page 867

          1            Mr. Cakalic, in May of 1992 were you

          2  interviewed by the Croatian police at the main police

          3  station in Zagreb?

          4       A.   Yes.

          5       Q.   And to your knowledge, was a report or

          6  I think correctly termed, "an official note", made

          7  pursuant to that interview?

          8       A.   That note was made but I had not seen it

          9  before. The note is a document intended for official

         10  persons who have knowledge or are familiar with the

         11  activities of somebody, and who needs that information

         12  for further processing, and which he may use to refresh

         13  his memory or to deal with some data in a more precise

         14  fashion.

         15            MR. WILLIAMSON:  I would like to show

         16  Mr. Cakalic this document now, and I believe Mr. Fila

         17  will have the same objection that he had yesterday, but

         18  we will mark this for identification purposes only. At

         19  this point I would mark it as Prosecutor's Exhibit 53,

         20  and the English translation of this as 53A.

         21            On the last page of the Croatian version of

         22  this official note, do you see a signature?

         23       A.   Yes. There is the signature of the person who

         24  compiled it.

         25       Q.   And that is not your signature; correct?

Page 868

          1       A.   No, it is not.

          2            MR. WILLIAMSON:  Okay. I would tender these

          3  now but I understand Mr. Fila would object to this.

          4            JUDGE CASSESE:  Mr. Fila? Do you object?

          5            MR. FILA:  Your Honour, do I need to repeat my

          6  same objection that I had yesterday? I think not. There

          7  is no need to waste the court's time.

          8            MR. WILLIAMSON:  Very well, your Honour, we

          9  will mark it for identification as Prosecutor's Exhibit

         10  53 and 53A at this time.

         11            Mr. Cakalic, can you tell the court where you

         12  are from originally?

         13       A.   I am from Fericanci, a place towards the

         14  north about 60 kilometres from Osijek, north-west.

         15       Q.   And did you grow up in Fericanci?

         16       A.   Fericanci. I lived there until the

         17  2nd February 1943, from my birth until that date.

         18       Q.   And where did you move in 1943?

         19       A.   To Varazdin.

         20       Q.   At some point in time did you end up in

         21  Zagreb?

         22       A.   Yes. About the middle of December, and

         23  I lived there until 1st July 1958.

         24       Q.   And during the time that you were in Zagreb,

         25  did you pursue your education?

Page 869

          1       A.   Yes. I completed secondary school there, and

          2  I worked there.

          3       Q.   And did you then enter into any higher

          4  education after secondary school?

          5       A.   I did, but only after I obtained a job in

          6  Vukovar.

          7       Q.   And what was the job that you obtained in

          8  Vukovar?

          9       A.   I was head of the central medical laboratory,

         10  and the laboratory for blood transfusions.

         11       Q.   And what is your training in? What field?

         12       A.   I completed the higher school of sanitary

         13  technicians in Belgrade.

         14       Q.   And you were working as a sanitary technician

         15  in Vukovar. Is that correct?

         16       A.   As a sanitary inspector. In 1968 I left the

         17  Vukovar hospital and became employed in the

         18  municipality of Vukovar as a sanitary inspector.

         19       Q.   And how long did you hold that job?

         20       A.   Until, for as long as it was possible,

         21  actually, during the conflict.

         22       Q.   So this was up until 1991; correct?

         23       A.   Yes. Correct. And in 1991.

         24       Q.   Did there come a time in early 1991 when

         25  barricades were put up in some of the villages around

Page 870

          1  Vukovar?

          2       A.   Yes, there were.

          3       Q.   When did this occur, if you recall?

          4       A.   After the killing of Croatian policemen in

          5  Borovo Selo.

          6       Q.   How would you describe the situation in

          7  Vukovar at that time?

          8       A.   After the massacre of Croatian policemen in

          9  Borovo Selo?

         10       Q.   Yes.

         11       A.   A rather strained psychological relation

         12  developed among the population of Vukovar. After that,

         13  the shooting started. People were out of their wits.

         14  Some people had one set of information, other people

         15  had a different set. I think that psychologically the

         16  situation was very grave.

         17       Q.   Over the summer, did the situation improve at

         18  all?

         19       A.   No.

         20       Q.   What happened during the course of the

         21  summer?

         22       A.   The shelling of the town started, by formed

         23  paramilitary units. Later, also, by members of the

         24  Yugoslav army, who were well-armed.

         25       Q.   During the summer did people who lived in

Page 871

          1  Vukovar leave the city?

          2       A.   Many left the city, but many also returned

          3  after that.

          4       Q.   And to your knowledge why were people leaving

          5  the city?

          6       A.   Out of fear.

          7       Q.   Now, you have indicated that during the

          8  summer there started to be shelling of the city. Was

          9  the shelling intense at the outset?

         10       A.   It first started as sporadic shelling. The

         11  shells first fell, as far as I can remember, in the

         12  vicinity of the house in which I lived. Then in the

         13  centre of town, then the suburbs coming from the

         14  direction of Borovo Selo, the fire came from Brsadin.

         15  In August these attacks were quite serious. Throughout

         16  the day one could hear automatic weapons fire, then

         17  planes started attacking and then gradually it turned

         18  into real war.

         19       Q.   Did you remain at your house during this

         20  period?

         21       A.   I did.

         22       Q.   And where was your house located?

         23       A.   The Boris Kidric Street, number 79. That is

         24  near the city stadium in Vukovar.

         25       Q.   Was anyone with you at your home through the

Page 872

          1  battle?

          2       A.   I spent very little time at home because

          3  I was busy doing my work. There was my wife, there were

          4  my neighbours and friends.

          5       Q.   What were living conditions like for you and

          6  your wife during the battle?

          7       A.   The same as for everyone else. As far as

          8  physical fitness was concerned, the satisfaction of

          9  elementary needs like food and water, these were

         10  sufficient up to the end of September. Later on there

         11  was no running water any more, because the pipes,

         12  pipelines of the central water supply system of the

         13  city of Vukovar had been damaged, and also some of the

         14  surrounding villages.

         15            As regards food, it had to be destroyed

         16  because it was kept in refrigerators and there was no

         17  more electricity, so that we mainly used packed foods

         18  or...

         19       Q.   Now, you have indicated that you were away

         20  much of the time. Did you have certain duties or

         21  responsibilities during the battle?

         22       A.   Yes.

         23       Q.   And what were your responsibilities?

         24       A.   I volunteered and applied to the Secretariat

         25  of National Defence to engage in preventative medical

Page 873

          1  activities for the benefit of the Croatian army and

          2  police and all the population of the city.

          3       Q.   And what did this job entail?

          4       A.   Primarily supply with good quality drinking

          5  water for the population and the army, provision of

          6  hygienically correct foodstuffs for the Croatian army

          7  and police.

          8            (9:50 am)

          9       Q.   And during the time of the battle are you

         10  aware of any epidemics or outbreaks of disease in the

         11  city under these conditions?

         12       A.   No, no. They did not happen because I gave

         13  very strict instructions, very precise ones as to the

         14  way in which the washing and disinfection of all

         15  utensils used for the preparation of food and the

         16  transportation of food should be done. All the

         17  containers before transportation had to be given to me

         18  for inspection, and only after that could they be

         19  filled with food which other people would have to

         20  taste. This was obligatory.  And only then was it

         21  transported to particular points, and it was always

         22  cooked food.

         23       Q.   Did there come a time near the end of the

         24  battle when you left your home?

         25       A.   On 17th November my wife and I left our home

Page 874

          1  and went to the Vukovar hospital because we had been

          2  informed that units of the Yugoslav army and

          3  paramilitary units in the street in which

          4  I lived had boarded inhabitants in personnel carriers

          5  and taken them away. That same moment my wife and I and

          6  our neighbours, mostly Croats, abandoned our homes.

          7  Some of us went to the hospital compound. I entered the

          8  hospital itself with my wife. Some went to other

          9  buildings.

         10       Q.   Was it difficult getting to the hospital on

         11  that day?

         12       A.   It was. It was already towards the last

         13  quarter of the day. It was dark, the streets were

         14  damaged from the shelling. The trees had been felled,

         15  fallen, and we walked as well as we could, by memory.

         16       Q.   Can you describe the situation at the

         17  hospital when you arrived?

         18       A.   The situation in the hospital was terrible.

         19  First of all, in the actual yard outside the building,

         20  the yard was crammed full of people. The hospital

         21  itself was in a very poor condition in terms of

         22  hygiene.  There was a shortage of water, and it seems

         23  to me that the sewage was also blocked.

         24       Q.   How were you accommodated at the hospital?

         25       A.   I had worked in that hospital for ten years,

Page 875

          1  so I knew mostly all the staff, so we went to the x-ray

          2  department and we found some blankets there, and we

          3  spent two nights in the dark chamber there.

          4       Q.   And these were the nights of the 17th and

          5  18th,, is that correct, or 18th and 19th?

          6       A.   The night of the 17th-18th and the

          7  18th-19th and 19th-20th.

          8            MR. WILLIAMSON:  Your Honours, if you please,

          9  this might be a good time for a break. It is a good

         10  break point in the testimony, perhaps.

         11            JUDGE CASSESE:  We stand in recess for twenty

         12  minutes:

         13            (10.55 am)

         14            (Short break)

         15            (11.15 am)

         16            MR. WILLIAMSON:  Mr. Cakalic, when we left off

         17  you had just described what the situation was at the

         18  hospital, and where you were staying when you were

         19  there. At the time that you arrived at the hospital,

         20  did you see any JNA soldiers there?

         21       A.   At that time they were not there yet.

         22       Q.   Did there come a point in time when they did,

         23  in fact, arrive at the hospital?

         24       A.   When they arrived at the hospital they were

         25  probably somewhere within the hospital compound, but

Page 876

          1  officially we saw them only after Mr. Vidic had handed

          2  over the city.

          3       Q.   And when did this occur?

          4       A.   This was on 20th, let us say at 00 hours.

          5       Q.   So around midnight on the night between

          6  19th and 20th?

          7       A.   That is right.

          8            MR. WILLIAMSON:  I am sorry your Honour, there

          9  seems to be some technical problems.

         10            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes. I was wondering.

         11  A strange sound.

         12            MR. WILLIAMSON:  Some backfeed.

         13            It seems to be fine now. Thank you.

         14            Your Honour, it appears to be when the court

         15  reporter is typing, I think, so there may be some kind

         16  of overflow from that.

         17            JUDGE CASSESE:  Do you mind if, in spite of

         18  this strange sound, we.continue?

         19            MR. WILLIAMSON:  It is fine, your Honour.

         20  I apologise to Mr. Cakalic for the interruption.

         21            Now, you indicated that around midnight

         22  between 19th and 20th that there was a meeting with

         23  Mr. Vidic, and the JNA. How are you aware of that

         24  meeting taking place?

         25       A.   On 19th November around 11.30 pm, I was in

Page 877

          1  Mr. Vidic's room with Mr. Vidic, and we knew that the

          2  town would be handed over at that time, and I said that

          3  I would take part in the negotiations because we had

          4  special ID from the Croatian Red Cross, authorising me

          5  to negotiate, not right now, but generally speaking,

          6  that I could negotiate on behalf of the Red Cross.

          7            MR. WILLIAMSON:  And are you aware of who was

          8  representing the JNA at this meeting with Mr. Vidic.

          9            THE INTERPRETER:  I am sorry, it is very hard

         10  on the interpreters.

         11       A.   Someone came into the room, it was a major.

         12  And I saw, judging by the pictures, that it was Major

         13  Sljivancanin. He walked in with the lieutenant, Kuzmic,

         14  Bogdan.

         15            MR. WILLIAMSON:  Mr. Cakalic, I am sorry,

         16  I think we have to interrupt again because of the

         17  problem with the interpreters.

         18            JUDGE CASSESE:  I am afraid we have to break

         19  for fifteen minutes.

         20            (11.20 am)

         21                      (A short break)

         22            (11.40 am)

         23            JUDGE CASSESE:  Please.

         24            MR. WILLIAMSON:  Thank you. Mr. Cakalic, when

         25  we left off, you were talking about this meeting which

Page 878

          1  had occurred between Mr. Vidic and Major Sljivancanin.

          2  Where did you stay that night between the 19th and

          3  20th?

          4       A.   In the Vukovar hospital at the x-ray

          5  department.

          6       Q.   So this is the same place that you had stayed

          7  for the preceding two nights; correct?

          8       A.   Yes.

          9       Q.   On the night between 19th and 20th when this

         10  meeting took place, did you have any discussions or any

         11  contact with Major Sljivancanin? Did you see him again

         12  the following morning?

         13       A.   Before the transport of the imprisoned at the

         14  Vukovar hospital to Ovcara, yes.

         15       Q.   Can you tell us what happened at the hospital

         16  on the morning of 20th?

         17       A.   In the morning some time around 7.30 or

         18  8 o'clock, I cannot exactly tell the time, all the

         19  people employed in the medical centre were called to

         20  a meeting, and all the others who were not employed in

         21  the medical centre were asked to leave the hospital

         22  premises through the door of the emergency ward. People

         23  were lined up there. There were about 250 of us

         24  altogether there. We were supposed to take out

         25  everything we had, out of our pockets, and to show it

Page 879

          1  to them.

          2            There were two soldiers there. One was Pero.

          3  I found out what his name was later because he escorted

          4  us from the Vukovar military barracks when we were

          5  there for a second time to Sremska Mitrovica. He was

          6  cursing us, everything he could, and he said that he

          7  would kill all of us if on our side there were not some

          8  prisoners who were members of his army.

          9            At that time, I saw two stretchers being

         10  moved away with two persons who were JNA officers,

         11  I think. They also had oxygen tanks and infusion on

         12  them and they were taken away in an ambulance in an

         13  unknown direction.

         14            (11.45 am)

         15       Q.   Did these JNA officers or soldiers appear to

         16  have been patients at the hospital?

         17       A.   Yes. And they were patients at the hospital.

         18            MR. WILLIAMSON:  I would like at this time to

         19  show the witness Prosecutor's Exhibit 8, please, and if

         20  the ELMO could be turned on and he can display this for

         21  the court. And if the usher can bring it......

         22            Mr. Cakalic, do you recognise this photograph,

         23  what is depicted in this photograph?

         24       A.   Yes, I do. This is an ambulance and the door

         25  on the left-hand side leads to the emergency ward, and

Page 880

          1  also to the specialist offices. This is where we were

          2  lined up, in the area between the vehicle and

          3  Gunduliceva Street on the other side.

          4       Q.   If you would refer to the photograph which is

          5  to your right on the display and point exactly where

          6  you were located at that time.

          7       A.   From the vehicle towards the exit out of the

          8  hospital, towards Gunduliceva Street.

          9       Q.   And as you were lined up out here did you see

         10  Major Sljivancanin at that time?

         11       A.   A bit later, when we were taken to the

         12  vehicles.

         13       Q.   And that is all for this display, I think.

         14  Thank you.

         15            What happened when all of you were assembled

         16  outside in this driveway?

         17       A.   After the wounded were driven off, I mean

         18  those of the Yugoslav People's Army, we were taken out

         19  and we boarded the buses. There were five buses there

         20  now, to the best of my recollection.

         21       Q.   Excuse me just a moment, Mr. Cakalic, I am

         22  going to interrupt you. Before you boarded the buses,

         23  did anything happen to you while you were lined up

         24  outside?

         25       A.   Nobody beat us.

Page 881

          1       Q.   Okay. Were you searched?

          2       A.   Yes. I already said that a few minutes ago,

          3  that we had to take everything out of our pockets and

          4  also everything we had in our bags. We had to show it

          5  to them. They checked all of it and whatever they

          6  considered dangerous, knives, razor blades, they took

          7  that away and the rest we were allowed to return into

          8  our bags or pockets.

          9       Q.   Who told you to get on the buses?

         10       A.   They were soldiers, JNA soldiers, and they

         11  told us where we were supposed to go. I could have gone

         12  to the fourth bus straight away, for example, but he

         13  told me to go to the third bus so they were filling the

         14  buses according to a logic of their own so that is how

         15  I ended up on the fourth bus, or third bus.

         16       Q.   And exactly where were those buses located?

         17       A.   May I show it on the picture?

         18       Q.   I think it would need to be turned on again,

         19  please. And again you must refer to the one that is to

         20  your right.

         21       A.   We went out this way towards Gunduliceva

         22  Street, and to the left and right in Gunduliceva Street

         23  that is where the buses were. On the left-hand side

         24  they are about 30 metres to the corner of the next

         25  street and that is where the buses stood, 1, 2, 3, 4,

Page 882

          1  5, all of them lined up.

          2       Q.   What happened after you got on the bus?

          3       A.   When we got onto the buses they were waiting

          4  for them to be filled up. The first, second and third

          5  left, and then at an intersection they had to turn

          6  around because they were facing the opposite direction

          7  and they drove us from Gunduliceva Street through the

          8  square of Marko Oreskovi than Hadzijana Street by the

          9  marketplace, the bridge on the Vuka River to the square

         10  of Matija Gubac, I believe it was. Then by Velepromet

         11  and the Orthodox church, then Kraseva Street, then by

         12  the health centre, then to the Sajmiste Street and then

         13  to the military barracks in Vukovar.

         14       Q.   Now, when you referred to Velepromet being

         15  referred to the Orthodox church, was this the

         16  Velepromet warehouses?

         17       A.   The management building was there.

         18       Q.   And when you arrived at the JNA barracks,

         19  what did you observe occurring there?

         20       A.   When these five buses were lined up, then the

         21  Chetniks and soldiers came. They mistreated us

         22  psychologically. They were pointing at various people

         23  saying, "I am going to slaughter you", in this way,

         24  "I am going to cut your throat", in another way, et

         25  cetera. Specifically speaking, Bulic Milos was

Page 883

          1  attacking Damjan Samardzic. He promised that he would

          2  kill him, him and his son, and that is exactly what

          3  happened at Ovcara.

          4            One of them came to me and showed me a sign

          5  like this (indicates), that he would slit my throat.

          6  From our bus they moved on to the third and fifth bus,

          7  the fourth and the fifth bus, and an acquaintance of

          8  mine came up. He worked with me at the municipality.

          9  His name was Vlado Kosic. He had a degree in economics.

         10  He was a councillor to the president of the committee

         11  for economic affairs at the municipality. He looked at

         12  me, he smiled, and he said, "Emil, you are not on the

         13  right bus", I said, "which bus is better than this

         14  one?".  He said, "Well, all of them are the same".

         15  I also saw his wife. I saw Radwoje Jakovljevic. His

         16  name was "Frizider".

         17            I saw Sreto Nedeljkovic too, from Bobota, who

         18  guarded the storage for ammunition, open-air storage.

         19  It was about 10 metres from the bus, and he said, "Well

         20  now, I am going to take you some place and I am going

         21  to exchange you so there will be no problem

         22  whatsoever", so this was a comfort. However, what was

         23  not a comfort was what Kosic answered. At that time

         24  I could not think about it yet, but when Ovcara

         25  happened and everything else, then I realised that he

Page 884

          1  had known where they were taking us.

          2       Q.   Can you describe what these men were wearing,

          3  if you recall, and in the case of Mr. Kosic's wife, what

          4  she was wearing?

          5       A.   Mr. Kosic and his wife were wearing clothes of

          6  Yugoslav People's Army. Olive green and grey. Tito cap

          7  on their heads, and a star on the cap. Jakovljevic

          8  Radwoje was wearing civilian clothes. This Sreto, who

          9  guarded the stores of ammunition, he was wearing proper

         10  military uniform with a gun.

         11            MR. WILLIAMSON:  I would at this time like to

         12  show the witness Prosecutor's Exhibit 20.

         13            THE REGISTRAR:  This is not an exhibit yet.

         14  It has been only marked for identification.

         15            MR. WILLIAMSON:  It has been marked for

         16  identification at this -- prior to now, yes. Okay.

         17            If this can be displayed on the ELMO, please,

         18  and perhaps if the lights can be dimmed just a bit

         19  I think it is a little clearer.

         20            Mr. Cakalic, do you identify -- I am sorry, do

         21  you recognise what is depicted in this photograph?

         22       A.   Yes. This is the yard of the Vukovar military

         23  barracks.

         24       Q.   And can you indicate on here where you were

         25  located on 20th November? Again, referring to the

Page 885

          1  photograph at your right.

          2       A.   We were brought to the entrance. We were

          3  placed here by the hangar. This is where the vehicles

          4  were, from one to five. (Indicates). However, later

          5  they told me that a sixth vehicle had arrived too, but

          6  I do not remember that sixth vehicle.

          7       Q.   And where did you see these other people that

          8  you have referred to, that you spoke with at the

          9  barracks?

         10       A.   The third bus that I was on was approximately

         11  here, and they came from this area. They came here to

         12  the first, second, third bus.  This is where I talked

         13  to Mr. Kosic and to Sreto Nedeljkovic, who guarded the

         14  ammunition here in this storage area. (Indicates).

         15            The fourth bus was here, the fifth bus here,

         16  and later when I talked to our other people who were in

         17  prison they told me that the sixth bus was

         18  approximately somewhere around here.

         19       Q.   Okay. Thank you.

         20            Mr. Cakalic, was there any type of provocation

         21  from the people on the buses toward those who were

         22  walking around outside?

         23       A.   No.

         24       Q.   How long did the buses stay at the barracks,

         25  if you have any idea?

Page 886

          1       A.   I think until about roughly, of course

          2  I cannot tell you exactly, until about 2 o'clock, 2.10

          3  or ten minutes to two. That was roughly the time

          4  period.

          5       Q.   Are you familiar with a place called

          6  Velepromet?

          7       A.   Yes.

          8       Q.   And where is it located in relation to the

          9  JNA barracks, and at this point I am not talking about

         10  the office building which you discussed earlier. Again,

         11  if we can have the ELMO turned...

         12       A.   You are talking about the Velepromet

         13  warehouse. When you leave it is in the same street in

         14  the direction of Negoslavci to the right -- no, not

         15  Negoslavci -- yes, towards Negoslavci on the right-hand

         16  side.

         17       Q.   And approximately how far is it located from

         18  the JNA barracks, if you know.

         19       A.   Maybe 200 metres. I could not tell you

         20  exactly, but somewhere around 200 metres.

         21       Q.   After the buses left the barracks, where did

         22  they go?

         23       A.   Passing along Sajmiste Street towards

         24  Negoslavci, then we turned off onto a side road that

         25  led to Ovcara. Ovcara is a plant of the Vukovar

Page 887

          1  agricultural combine, as it was called.

          2       Q.   Had you ever been to Ovcara before?

          3       A.   Many times.

          4       Q.   What did you observe happening when you

          5  arrived at Ovcara?

          6       A.   There were very many civilian vehicles on the

          7  right-hand side of the road from the administrative

          8  building, almost up to the hangar. The first bus

          9  stopped in front of the hangar, and the prisoners

         10  started getting off, one by one. They were taken over

         11  by a captain of the Yugoslav army. I assumed he was

         12  a reservist because could he not button up his

         13  officer's blouse. He was putting his hands in people's

         14  pockets and taking out what he wanted, or what he

         15  needed.

         16            After that, we had to pass between two rows

         17  of Chetniks on our left and our right, and they beat

         18  everybody. I must say an elderly man called Bosanac, he

         19  is Dr. Bosanac's father-in-law.  He was over 70, but he

         20  too was beaten with sticks so that he fell down.

         21            When the first and second buses were

         22  unloaded, then it was my bus's turn. I too came off and

         23  reached that captain. He took off my glasses, he tried

         24  them on himself.  The sun was still shining, they

         25  changed colour because they are photosensitive

Page 888

          1  multi-focals like these, so he tried them on himself.

          2  He saw that they did not suit him, he threw them down

          3  and trampled on them, and then I went in between the

          4  Chetniks and they beat us all.

          5            Before entering the hangar, maybe two and a

          6  half or three metres away, I was called out by

          7  name, "look at our inspector. So you are here too Emil,

          8  what are you doing here?", and I turned around and

          9  I recognised Slavko Dokmanovic. And I said, "I am doing

         10  what everyone else is doing here", and when he called

         11  me, "inspector", the people who were beating me

         12  probably thought I was a police inspector so I was

         13  badly hurt, and when I entered the hangar, the beating

         14  even intensified.

         15            When I got into the hangar I saw Mr. Slavko

         16  Dokmanovic too. He was kicking Dado... one of our

         17  soldiers. I cannot remember his surname just for

         18  a moment, who had injuries ton his legs and he kicked

         19  him in those wounds. I also managed to see him make

         20  a leap that is in football known as scissors, that he

         21  did that, and at that moment Milos Bulic approached me

         22  and with a wooden crutch he hit me on the neck, due to

         23  which I suffered a serious injury of my vertebrae and

         24  I think there is evidence of that here in the

         25  documents. By then we were all already covered in

Page 889

          1  blood, and on the right-hand side, right from the

          2  entrance into the hangar, the prisoners were lined up

          3  with their hands against the walls with their feet as

          4  far from the wall as possible, and they were beaten.

          5  They beat them as much as they wanted and as much as

          6  they could, the people who were inside

          7            On the left-hand side, about seven, eight or

          8  maybe 10 metres away, I cannot say exactly, there were

          9  piles of hay. Somebody pointed at me to go there and

         10  I sat on the hay and at that moment I saw that

         11  something was really happening to Damjan Samardzic that was

         12  promised him in the barracks. Milos Bulic and some

         13  others had thrown him on the ground on his stomach.

         14  They were jumping on his back. They caught him by the

         15  hair, and he hit his head against the concrete. Then

         16  they turned him around, they jumped on his stomach. He

         17  was bleeding through the nose and the mouth and he

         18  died.

         19       Q.   Mr. Cakalic, if I can interrupt you for just

         20  a moment, you said that as you came in you heard this

         21  voice and then you recognised Slavko Dokmanovic. How do

         22  you know Mr. Dokmanovic?

         23       A.   He worked in the same institution that

         24  I worked in. He was an adviser of the committee for

         25  agriculture and we met maybe 14 or 15 years ago at the

Page 890

          1  Vupik plant in Bobota. I knew him also as the president

          2  of the municipal assembly of Vukovar. We would often

          3  meet in his office and elsewhere and we would greet one

          4  another.

          5       Q.   And so you had occasion to speak with him

          6  over these fourteen or fifteen years. Is that correct?

          7       A.   Yes, yes, I did.

          8       Q.   And prior to 20th November, how would you

          9  describe your contacts with him? Were they friendly?

         10       A.   Yes. They were friendly. And my last contact

         11  with him, I think it was some time in June, about

         12  a month after the massacre of the Croatian policemen in

         13  Borovo Selo, when a delegation was supposed to come to

         14  Vukovar and it consisted of a representative of the

         15  international Red Cross. I think his name is Dr. Nicholson,

         16  and then the secretary of the Yugoslav Red Cross, Rade

         17  Dubijic, the secretary of the Croatian Red Cross, the

         18  late Dr. Anto Dubosovic, the secretary of the Vukovar

         19  Red Cross, a lady, and myself as the president of the

         20  Red Cross. I was to invite the president of the

         21  municipal assembly to attend that meeting.

         22  I personally went to Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic's office, the

         23  president of the municipality of Vukovar, and

         24  I conveyed to him this, asking him to come to the

         25  meeting.  As, however, Mr. Vidic came to the meeting,

Page 891

          1  I think at that time he was still not a representative

          2  of the Croatian government, the envoy of the Croatian

          3  government for the municipality of Vukovar, and that

          4  was actually the first time I had any contact with

          5  Mr. Vidic.

          6            MR. WILLIAMSON:  Again, I think we have a bit

          7  of a technical problem.

          8       A.   I can hear well.

          9       Q.   I think it is the transcript which is causing

         10  a problem.

         11            I apologise. Just one moment, please.

         12            Now, you have indicated that you went to see

         13  Mr. Dokmanovic to convey to him an invitation to this

         14  meeting. Is that correct?

         15       A.   Yes.

         16       Q.   And what happened then?

         17       A.   Mr. Dokmanovic did not come to that meeting.

         18  He sent Mr. Vidic.

         19       Q.   But did you see Mr. Dokmanovic on the occasion

         20  where you had conveyed this invitation to him?

         21       A.   Yes, in his official office.

         22       Q.   And was there any discussion with him at that

         23  time, any talks?

         24       A.   Yes. I invited him, I said, "Slavko, please

         25  be so kind as to come to this meeting", and I said,

Page 892

          1  "who else would be invited?".  There was no written

          2  invitation. I came to ask him to come in person,

          3  orally.

          4       Q.   And do you recall what his response was at

          5  that time?

          6       A.   He said he would come, and if he could not

          7  come for any reason, that he would send someone else.

          8       Q.   Mr. Cakalic, do you see Mr. Dokmanovic in the

          9  courtroom today?

         10       A.   Yes. I see him. I know him.

         11       Q.   Can you describe where he is seated and point

         12  him out, please?

         13       A.   He is seated in the last row on the second

         14  seat from the left.

         15            MR. WILLIAMSON:  Let the record reflect that

         16  the witness has identified the accused, Mr. Dokmanovic.

         17            On 20th November, do you do you have any

         18  doubt that it was Slavko Dokmanovic you saw at Ovcara?

         19       A.   No. I am sure I saw him.

         20       Q.   Do you recall what he was wearing on that

         21  day?

         22       A.   He was wearing a blue uniform, perhaps

         23  a little lighter than my jacket. On his hat he had the

         24  Tito cap with a five-cornered star, and a jacket.

         25  Three-quarter length, maybe 20 centimetres above his

Page 893

          1  knees.

          2       Q.   Did Mr. Dokmanovic hit you?

          3       A.   No.

          4       Q.   But you were beaten at Ovcara. Correct?

          5       A.   Yes, badly.

          6       Q.   At the time that you saw Mr. Dokmanovic, what

          7  was your mental state at that time?

          8       A.   I was in quite a good mental state, but I was

          9  terribly surprised. I could record every detail and

         10  I remember events very well. I only have problems with

         11  timing.

         12       Q.   At any point during the day did you lose

         13  consciousness?

         14       A.   I was beaten, I fell down, but I got up too,

         15  because those who fell down, they never got up again.

         16       Q.   Was your vision impaired in any way during

         17  the day?

         18       A.   I wear correctional lenses but at the time

         19  I was without my glasses. The strength at the time was

         20  1:25, 2:75; now I have 1:75 and 4, but I would describe

         21  each person in this room, how they are clothed and what

         22  they look like, even without my glasses.

         23       Q.   At any point in time, was your face bloodied?

         24       A.   It was. That may be the reason that I did not

         25  recognise some other people, because blood was coming

Page 894

          1  from my nose and mouth and this blood was covering my

          2  face and clothes, but after a short time I wiped myself

          3  off with a handkerchief so I could see well.

          4       Q.   At the point you have indicated you saw

          5  Mr. Dokmanovic, was there blood on your face at that

          6  time?

          7            .

          8       A.   There was.

          9       Q.   Was it affecting your eyesight in any way?

         10       A.   No.

         11       Q.   Now, earlier you were talking about Damjan

         12  Samardzic being beaten. You felt like he had been killed. Is

         13  that correct?

         14       A.   Yes.

         15       Q.   Did you see anyone else seriously injured or

         16  killed?

         17       A.   Yes. The same happened to a man called Kemal,

         18  already in the bus during the transport when we were

         19  being driven from the barracks to Ovcara. He was abused

         20  by the soldiers accompanying us in the bus, who said he

         21  was a Shiptar, that they would kill him. He responded

         22  that he was not. He said he was a Macedonian, showing

         23  his ID card, that his name is such and such, that he

         24  actually has a Macedonian surname and not an Albanian

         25  one. And he was also killed at Ovcara, in addition to

Page 895

          1  Samardzic, in the same way.

          2       Q.   How long did you stay at the hangar at Ovcara

          3  inside?

          4       A.   Perhaps one hour, on the outside.

          5       Q.   During the time that you were in the hangar,

          6  what was the lighting like inside?

          7       A.   The hangar had glass panes, windows below the

          8  ceiling. These opened inwards, and the light came from

          9  one side of the wall of the hangar, and from the other

         10  side of the wall, so that one could see quite well, and

         11  when one could no longer see in the hangar, an electric

         12  bulb was switched on which was attached to

         13  a electricity-producing device.

         14       Q.   A generator?

         15       A.   Yes, generator.

         16            MR. WILLIAMSON:  At this time I would like for

         17  the witness to be shown again in this book which has

         18  previously been marked as -- for identification

         19  purposes only -- as Prosecutor's Exhibit 20, and

         20  perhaps if the usher can bring it, I can turn to the

         21  correct page.

         22            Mr. Cakalic, do you recognise what is depicted

         23  in this photograph?

         24       A.   Yes.

         25       Q.   What is shown?

Page 896

          1       A.   This is the hangar with the agricultural

          2  machinery inside.

          3       Q.   Was that machinery there on 20th November?

          4       A.   No.

          5       Q.   Again, perhaps, if the overhead lights can be

          6  dimmed a little bit, and Mr. Cakalic, if you can point

          7  out in this photograph where you were located and where

          8  some of these events that you have talked about

          9  occurred?

         10       A.   If I may, I should like to show you the

         11  windows.

         12            The doors were a little more widely open than

         13  now. We went along this path between two rows of

         14  Chetniks, we entered, and here on this side was Milos

         15  Bulic, and after I was called out as, "inspector",

         16  thinking that I was a police inspector, he started

         17  beating me. I fell about two times, and then I got up

         18  and walked towards him. I was terribly annoyed, I could

         19  not control my feelings, but surprisingly enough, he

         20  ran off, even though he was armed.

         21            Here on the left, another three or

         22  four metres away, Damjan Samardzic and Kemal were

         23  killed. When I got inside I saw Mr. Dokmanovic. Roughly

         24  here (indicates), and he hit Dado Dukic. I could not

         25  remember his surname. Dukic is his surname, Vladimir,

Page 897

          1  known as Dado Dukic. I know him because I was a friend

          2  of the family.

          3       Q.   If you would turn to the next page, please,

          4  in this album, does this picture more clearly depict

          5  the windows that you were describing in the building?

          6       A.   Yes.

          7            MR. WILLIAMSON:  Your Honours, at this time

          8  I would like to tender this as Prosecutor's Exhibit 20.

          9            Mr. Cakalic, what were the circumstances under

         10  which you were taken outside of the hangar?

         11       A.   There were many of us. We were all badly

         12  beaten, and abused. We sat on piles of hay, you know,

         13  the way combines make them after harvesting the wheat.

         14  After some time, a man was standing outside the door,

         15  dressed in the clothes of the Yugoslav army without any

         16  insignia on his cap with a white ribbon, I do not

         17  remember whether it was on his left or his right

         18  shoulder. He pointed at me and said, "you, you old man.

         19  Come outside". We were unshaven, and we really looked

         20  terrible. I said, "I will not because you will kill

         21  me". He said, "no, I will not kill you. Come and stand

         22  here next to the entrance to the hangar".

         23            By then all the buses had been unloaded, so

         24  I stood next to the door and he told me to wait there.

         25  I waited there, but the beatings inside continued.

Page 898

          1  I did not see Mr. Dokmanovic any longer. He left the

          2  hangar, probably. I went out, and I stood next to the

          3  door, then some other young men went inside, and there

          4  (redacted)

          5  (redacted)

          6  (redacted)

          7  (redacted)

          8  (redacted)

          9  (redacted)

         10  (redacted) I said that he was probably a Serb.

         11            We were taken out in front of the hangar.

         12  I saw the soldiers who had escorted us in the bus to

         13  Ovcara were there and they were looking for money. One

         14  of us seven gave some money. I do not know who it was.

         15  It was dark by then.

         16       Q.   Did you eventually leave the hangar? Leave

         17  Ovcara?

         18       A.   No. When we had all gathered there after some

         19  time we were called into the hangar, and there was

         20  a colonel and two lieutenant colonels inside. They took

         21  our particulars down. They wrote them down with the

         22  help of that bulb, and only after that did we come back

         23  out of the hangar and then we waited until a combi-van

         24  came to pick us up.

         25            I must say that before I had left, some other

Page 899

          1  things happened in the hangar. A man appeared, a very

          2  strong, big man, maybe 2 metres tall, well-built,

          3  I think he had about 130 kilograms, with a large cap

          4  and a big cockade on it, with knives in his belt, and

          5  a major. I later heard his surname, if it is correct,

          6  Milan Lukic, and I learned of his name when we were

          7  driven for the second time from the barracks towards

          8  Negoslavci and I saw him escorting the convoy. He

          9  wanted to use an electric baton, and the Chetnik, the

         10  tall one, I do not know his name, warned him not to do

         11  that, "there are too many witnesses".

         12            MR. WILLIAMSON:  Your Honours, if I can just

         13  interrupt very quickly, I believe we need a redaction

         14  at page 79, lines 10, 11 and 13, please.

         15            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes.

         16            MR. WILLIAMSON:  Now, when you were taken in

         17  this combi-bus that you were talking about, do you know

         18  who was driving the combi?

         19       A.   I do. Mile Bakic.

         20       Q.   And is this someone you knew from before?

         21       A.   Yes. I knew him. He is a person who came

         22  under medical inspection. He drove bread, in a special

         23  vehicle, from the bakery to the sales outlets.

         24       Q.   And where did Mr. Bakic take you?

         25       A.   After we got into the combi I sat next to

Page 900

          1  him. He was driving, and to my right was a soldier with

          2  a rifle, and I think there was another soldier but

          3  I did not recognise him. He was not a prisoner. And the

          4  rest were sitting behind in the combi.

          5       Q.   And where did you go?

          6       A.   They took us to Velepromet. In Velepromet, we

          7  were told to come out of the combi, and a man came up

          8  to us and I knew him as a merchant from Negoslavci. His

          9  name is Bingulac. He looked at me and asked, "uncle

         10  Emil, what are you doing here?".  I said, "what all the

         11  others are doing". He recognised some others and at

         12  that moment among the soldiers who were escorting us,

         13  we were proclaimed some kind of murderers, killers,

         14  bandits, killers of Serbs, and when this shopkeeper,

         15  Bingulac, when he heard us being called by those names,

         16  he said, "I do not have any room for them. Take them to

         17  Modateks", so they took us to Modateks.

         18            This was a privately-owned tailoring company.

         19  There were many machines inside, and when we entered

         20  there were about 150 women inside who had been

         21  collected in Vukovar and brought there.

         22            They were placed to the right, and the

         23  soldiers escorting us, one of them went in front

         24  saying, "be careful, the greatest killers from Vukovar

         25  are coming", and then I heard from among the group of

Page 901

          1  women somebody saying, "surely, uncle Emil and uncle

          2  Guncevic and others cannot be killers. That is

          3  impossible. We know those people from Vukovar, they did

          4  not do that", and then a soldier turned around and

          5  pointed a warning finger at her to keep quiet.

          6            Those women were taken away in three buses.

          7  I do not know where.

          8       Q.   How long did you remain at Modateks?

          9       A.   Until 21st, until about 4 o'clock, 4.30.

         10  A man was there whom they called, "Dedica", or

         11  "grandpa". I do not know him. I had not known him from

         12  before. He gave us certain assignments to do, to wash

         13  up, to clean and so on, which we did,  and on 21st at

         14  about -- or between 3 and 5, I had no orientation in

         15  time anymore, we were called into a small room. It

         16  could not have been larger than six square metres.

         17  There were some benches and some cupboards there. He

         18  told us to sit down there. He gave us some fish cans

         19  and some bread and water, and said he would lock us up

         20  because the Chetniks could come and slaughter us. That

         21  morning indeed they came. Many came to Modateks to see

         22  what we looked like. A corporal came. I think he was

         23  Macedonian. They attacked Berghofer a lot. The soldiers

         24  beat Dudas and Guncevic.

         25            Berghofer, the daughter of my colleague who

Page 902

          1  was a market inspector, she pointed a knife, put

          2  a knife under his neck, and this sergeant major said,

          3  "when I take you to Velepromet with my... then Topola

          4  will burn out your eyes with cigarette butts".

          5            So, they were quite an inquisitive people who

          6  wanted to come and see us. Among others, a director of

          7  a department of Borovo came. His name is Jovo Dabic,

          8  with whom I was a very good friend, and when I saw him

          9  coming in, we hid behind the machines. We did not wish

         10  to greet him, though he called "Guncevic" who was his

         11  colleague from the economics faculty.

         12       Q.   Now, you have indicated that you left

         13  Modateks on 21st. Where were you taken from there?

         14       A.   Because Dedica, grandpa, had come from

         15  somewhere, he unlocked us. Another man was with him. He

         16  had the rank of captain. I know him, but I cannot

         17  remember his last name now. I am sure I will remember

         18  afterwards. The two of them escorted us on foot from

         19  Modateks to the Velepromet warehouse. That was

         20  a collection centre for the prisoners. There was

         21  a drizzle. It was quite cold. I just had this kind of

         22  jacket on, so we were poorly-dressed.

         23            In front of the entrance to Velepromet on the

         24  right-hand side of the road, there was a group of a few

         25  people who were wearing Yugoslav army uniforms and they

Page 903

          1  had helmets on their heads and they kept yelling, "give

          2  me Perkovic, give me Krtinic", et cetera, and

          3  I recognised Pero Krtinic to be among them because we

          4  used to see each other quite often when we went

          5  fishing.

          6            However, this Dedica, grandpa, was very fair,

          7  and he said, "if anyone touches any one of these seven

          8  men I shall personally kill him", and indeed no one

          9  touched us. And he said, "when I hand them over, then

         10  you do whatever you want to them. Then it is your

         11  affair".

         12            We were taken to the carpentry shop. There

         13  was a hallway there and there was a room on the

         14  left-hand side and on the right-hand side. When we

         15  entered this room we were going in one by one, then we

         16  were supposed to put our hands on the wall to put our

         17  feet apart and we were searched. Everything was taken

         18  away from us. Everything that we had. If you remember,

         19  when we were getting off the buses, I mentioned that

         20  I only had my spectacles taken away from me but I had

         21  everything else. I had all my documents, I had my ID,

         22  I had that paper authorising me to negotiate on behalf

         23  of the Red Cross, I had money, I had my savings account

         24  book, and they took everything away from me. Everything

         25  I had, and what they did with it I really do not know.

Page 904

          1            I saw a doctor there, Dr. Maric. He was an

          2  orthopaedic surgeon. We were very good friends. He was

          3  sitting at a desk, and writing down our names and

          4  surnames and taking our other particulars, and

          5  I remember not one of us but one of the other prisoners

          6  complained to Dr. Maric that his blood pressure was --

          7  that his blood sugar was down because he was a diabetic

          8  and Dr. Maric gave him three or four cubes of sugar, he

          9  ate that and felt a bit better afterwards.

         10            Dr. Maric could not face me. I saw that he was

         11  flushed in the face. It was very unpleasant for him,

         12  I could see that and I was also embarrassed.

         13            We went into this room.  We called that room,

         14  "the room of death".

         15            I saw many of my acquaintances there. When

         16  I went in, Mr. Karlo Crk, director of the Vukovar

         17  slaughterhouse invited me to sit next to him, and he

         18  let me take his chair and he sat down on the floor on

         19  some kind of blanket or something. I cannot remember

         20  what it was down there.

         21             Once we were there this big door, it was

         22  a big door, and it was latched on the outside, and

         23  every time when this big door was opened, when

         24  somebody's name was called out, it was a ceremony. They

         25  had to unlock it, unlatch it, and then somebody looked

Page 905

          1  inside and said, "you. You come out here".

          2            Mr. Crk then went out and he never came back.

          3  Ivan Golac went out, and he never came back. All of

          4  a sudden, the door opened and at the door I saw

          5  a person dressed in a military uniform of the Yugoslav

          6  People's Army with a cap, full uniform, bombs on both

          7  sides and I recognised Zarko Leskovac who was in charge

          8  of the civilian defence in the Vuteks organisation with

          9  whom I had co-operated. I organised first aid courses.

         10  I taught first aid courses to members of the civilian

         11  defence, and he was always organising these courses, so

         12  we were on good terms. I believe that he was drunk,

         13  because I had never seen him in such a state ever in my

         14  life before that.

         15            However, after coming and going, Perkovic

         16  Tihomir's name was called out. He was taken out and

         17  brought back in a few times. Every time he had new

         18  marks on his face. The last time they took him away,

         19  perhaps sometime around 11 o'clock, he never came back.

         20       Q.   Mr. Cakalic, Mr. Perkovic was one of the people

         21  who had been taken from Ovcara with you, was he not?

         22       A.   Yes.

         23       Q.   Now, did there come some point in time when

         24  you left there and went to Sremska Mitrovica?

         25  (redacted)

Page 906

          1  (redacted)

          2  (redacted)I think that he was a witness here the other

          3  day too.

          4            After some time after midnight, through the

          5  windows you could hear the noise made by the Chetniks.

          6  They were singing, and allegedly they were going to the

          7  room that we were in and threatening to kill us, and

          8  there was a little window there and you could throw

          9  a bomb in through it. A captain came and he introduced

         10  himself by his name and surname but I forgot it. He

         11  said that he was a captain of the counter-intelligence

         12  service and he said that he came to save us, to take us

         13  to the Vukovar military barracks. He came on a bus. He

         14  said that if we did not want to go then the Chetniks

         15  would kill all of us, so that we should get going

         16  quickly. He opened the door and we boarded the bus and

         17  the bus could not ignite so we had to push it and

         18  perhaps we had moved about 10 or 15 metres and we saw

         19  this group which started moving towards the rooms that

         20  we were in, the so-called room of death, and these

         21  people wanted to kill us. But the captain took us to

         22  the Vukovar military barracks. This was the second time

         23  we were taken there.

         24            In the military barracks, we got out of the

         25  bus and we were sent to a big room. Perhaps it was half

Page 907

          1  of this courtroom. Yugoslav army soldiers were there to

          2  meet us. They treated us very fairly. They gave us

          3  water, food, blankets. We thought that we would manage

          4  to get some rest there.

          5            However, as morning was dawning, more and

          6  more military policemen were coming in, and they would

          7  beat individuals there. We were already a group of some

          8  40 people because all the people who were in the room

          9  of death came with the six of us. Perkovic was no

         10  longer with us. We were all taken to Velepromet. I did

         11  not say this before so now I am adding this to what

         12  I have said.

         13            (12.45 pm)

         14            As the morning was progressing, more and more

         15  military policemen were coming in. A young man's hands

         16  were tied behind his back with a wire. His hands were

         17  injured. They made him swallow two or three bullets.

         18  I do not know. He was in the camp in Mitrovica with me

         19  afterwards. Another man, Vukalic, from the

         20  municipality, Mr. Dokmanovic knows him too, he worked in

         21  the finance department. He was badly mistreated. He was

         22  beaten a lot. He was near me. There were three or four

         23  people between us, perhaps, and other people were

         24  beaten up to too.

         25            Now, as morning was dawning, it was about

Page 908

          1  7 o'clock, a soldier walked in without a cap on his

          2  head, with his hair cut very short. He had a military

          3  overcoat on and he introduced himself to us. He said,

          4  "I am Vojin Misic, a Serb from Negoslavci, I am

          5  Captain Vojin Misic". I do not know if it was him or

          6  not. I do not remember ever having seen him before that

          7  and I do not remember having seen him since, but this

          8  is what he said, "Serbs to the one side and everybody

          9  else to the other side". There were women among us,

         10  too. And one of them said, "what am I going to do? I am

         11  a Croat and my husband is a Serb", and he said, "to the

         12  right-hand side", so the Serbs were on one side and we

         13  were on the other side.

         14            And then he turned to us, Croats, and he

         15  started speaking to us. "Listen you guys, we are going

         16  to kill all of you. We are going to burn you all. We

         17  are going to throw your ashes into the Danube, to

         18  destroy your Croat seed". I remember exactly that

         19  sentence and I shall never forget it.

         20            We all became fearful because we did not know

         21  what would happen. He allowed people to go to the

         22  lavatory two by two, and as one pair would come back,

         23  another pair would go. Guncevic - see above and I stayed

         24  behind. We were the last, somehow. I said, "do not go

         25  out there, there are a lot of Chetniks outside". We had

Page 909

          1  to go out of that room, go through a corridor and then

          2  go to the lavatory. There were a lot of Chetniks who

          3  were waiting there to get hold of us.

          4            When this was over, a list was made,

          5  and through that hallway where the Chetniks were.  One

          6  of them moved towards me and wanted to grab me, but the

          7  soldiers would not let him. We were taken to the bus

          8  and then we were driven by bus to Negoslavci. We spent

          9  two or two and a half hours there, or three hours, I am

         10  not too sure.

         11            We also had an armoured vehicle with us, and

         12  I saw a lieutenant of their army enter that vehicle.

         13  I think that he had surrendered to our soldiers.

         14            MR. WILLIAMSON:  Your Honour, we need another

         15  redaction on page 87 at lines 8 through 10.

         16            Mr. Cakalic, just moving along a little bit

         17  here, did you eventually end up in Sremska Mitrovica on

         18  that day?

         19       A.   Yes.

         20       Q.   And how long did you stay in Sremska

         21  Mitrovica?

         22       A.   Until 7th February 1992.

         23       Q.   And during that time, where were you housed?

         24       A.   Sremska Mitrovica.

         25       Q.   Where in Sremska Mitrovica?

Page 910

          1       A.   Pavilion number 3 on the second floor, room

          2  number 3.

          3       Q.   And where was this pavilion located? Was it

          4  in some type of institution?

          5       A.   Yes. The prison in Mitrovica, the corrections

          6  house.

          7       Q.   And were you charged with any crimes during

          8  this time period?

          9       A.   No.

         10       Q.   Was there any allegation that you had ever

         11  done anything wrong?

         12       A.   For a long time, no.

         13       Q.   Do you have any idea why you were being held

         14  there?

         15       A.   Just like all other citizens, however, they

         16  were very well-informed as to what who had done. I had

         17  said that I had volunteered to be involved in

         18  preventative medicine for the Croat army and for the

         19  civilian population of Vukovar, because all the doctors

         20  and medical staff involved in preventative medicine had

         21  left except for a colleague of mine, Ivo

         22  Kardun. I charged him afterwards with the duties at the

         23  hospital because there were many things to be done at

         24  the hospital. It was full of wounded people and he was

         25  in charge of providing good water and he was -- and

Page 911

          1  food, et cetera, and he was a very good man and very

          2  conscientious.

          3            I was first invited for interrogation,

          4  I think on 14th January 1992 by Mr. Boro Savic. He was

          5  secretary of a political party in Vukovar.  And Goran

          6  Hadzic, president of this political party and later

          7  president of Krajina, the so-called, "Krajina".

          8            They wanted to get certain answers from me.

          9  For example, who carried out mobilisation in Vukovar.

         10  I said, "the military police of the Croatian army". He

         11  did not believe that. He did not believe that there was

         12  a military police of the Croatian army. But it was

         13  organised quite well, and pretty soon not very many of

         14  them, but they were good, and then who do they

         15  mobilised? They mobilised -- he asked that I say who

         16  they had mobilised in the building that I believed in.

         17  "They mobilised Nikola Pekic". And he said, "who is

         18  that?", and I said, "that is my neighbour. The nephew

         19  of the retired general, Dusan Pekic", "and what they do

         20  to him?", and I said, "they took him away", and

         21  he said, "they slaughtered him", and I said, "no, I did

         22  not".

         23       Q.   Without going all the way through this,

         24  I just want to ask you a couple more questions, if we

         25  can, about your time in Sremska Mitrovica. As a result

Page 912

          1  of your time there, did you sustain any injuries?

          2       A.   Yes.

          3       Q.   And what were the nature of those injuries?

          4       A.   Yes. The first heavy injuries I sustained at

          5  Ovcara. That was part of my backbone towards the neck,

          6  my right-hand elbow, I still cannot clench my fist

          7  until the present day. I cannot lift my hand any

          8  further, and I am not trying to say that this is only

          9  a consequence of Ovcara, because I was also in two

         10  massacres in Mitrovica.

         11            In the second massacre in Mitrovica, which

         12  was dreadful, we had to take off our shoes and take off

         13  our clothes before that. I had injured my left foot as

         14  a child towards the end of the Second World War, and

         15  when Vukovar was bombed from aeroplanes, I ran and

         16  I wanted to jump into a yard and then I jumped onto the

         17  edge of a step and I injured my foot in that way and

         18  when we were supposed to take off our shoes then he saw

         19  that I had a bandage on my foot. I do not know what he

         20  thought and he started beating that leg and foot and

         21  that bandaged area that was injured until the present

         22  day I have terrible pain in that leg and also atrophy

         23  of that left leg. I can show it to you if you are

         24  interested.

         25            We were beaten there. We had to lie on our

Page 913

          1  backs first and then on our stomachs, and they beat us.

          2  It was not the soldiers who were beating us during the

          3  second massacre, it was the police who were beating us.

          4       Q.   And these police are from which Republic?

          5       A.   Afterwards we got to know quite a few of

          6  them --

          7       Q.   I am sorry, go ahead.

          8       A.   As I said, afterwards we got to know quite

          9  a few of them because they were working in that camp in

         10  Sremska Mitrovica. We were in touch with them. They

         11  would take us to interrogations and take us back from

         12  interrogations and they took us to clean rooms. They

         13  would open the doors and they would bring medicine to

         14  many prisoners who needed it.

         15       Q.   Where is Sremska Mitrovica located? In which

         16  Republic?

         17       A.   In the Republic of Serbia.

         18            MR. WILLIAMSON:  I have no further questions,

         19  your Honour.

         20            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you. I think we will

         21  now stand in recess until 2.30 sharp.

         22            (12.55 pm)

         23                   (Luncheon adjournment)

         24                           .

         25                           .

Page 914

          1            (2.30 pm)

          2                 Cross-examined by MR. FILA

          3       Q.   Thank you, your Honour.

          4            Mr. Cakalic, let us briefly review the period

          5  prior. You said that Mr. Dokmanovic, president of the

          6  assembly of the municipality of Vukovar, that you had

          7  a meeting. When was the last time you saw him?

          8       A.   At Ovcara.

          9       Q.   Before that.

         10       A.   That must have been at the beginning of June

         11  when we were told that representatives of the

         12  International Red Cross, Mr. Nicholas and so on. After

         13  that at Ovcara.

         14       Q.   What happened with Mr. Dokmanovic in the

         15  meantime?

         16       A.   He knows that.

         17       Q.   My question is, did he leave Vukovar?

         18       A.   He was there for a while. After that he

         19  probably left. I did not see him afterwards, nor did

         20  I enquire about him, but according to rumours, he had

         21  left.

         22       Q.   Was the municipal assembly disbanded?

         23       A.   A representative of the government of Croatia

         24  was appointed for Vukovar. Whether the assembly was

         25  disbanded, I really do not know.

Page 915

          1       Q.   Who was that? Who was the representative?

          2       A.   Marin Vidic.

          3       Q.   You were working in the hospital. Those two

          4  or three days you spent there, was a part reserved for

          5  JNA reservists, the wounded of the JNA?

          6       A.   They were together with all the other wounded

          7  of the Croatian army. There were no problems between

          8  them.

          9       Q.   Was there a special room for them or were

         10  they together?

         11       A.   I think they were together but I am not sure

         12  about that.

         13       Q.   Were some people taken from the Vukovar

         14  hospital on 19th in the evening, afternoon or evening,

         15  and do you know whether any of them ended their life in

         16  Ovcara?

         17       A.   Yes.

         18       Q.   Can you tell me who?

         19       A.   Stanko Duvnjak. He was a plasterer, medical

         20  technician in the hospital. I cannot remember his

         21  surname. He was taken away. Quite a number of people.

         22  I did not see our journalist, for instance, in the

         23  hospital. He was taken somewhere as well, but it is

         24  a fact that afterwards they were at Ovcara.

         25       Q.   Even though they were taken away on the 19th.

Page 916

          1       A.   Yes. Some of those I knew were taken to

          2  Ovcara and they were identified from the mass grave at

          3  Ovcara.

          4       Q.   To make it quite clear, I am referring to

          5  people taken away on 19th.

          6       A.   Yes.

          7       Q.   When the armed forces appeared on the 19th --

          8       A.   Which armed forces?

          9       Q.   We will get to that point.

         10       A.   I do not know how to call them.

         11       Q.   They were JNA, et cetera, but it is up to you

         12  to answer my question. That is why I am putting it like

         13  this.

         14       A.   Do you want me to answer?

         15       Q.   Let me put the question. The question is;

         16  what were the different formations that appeared?

         17       A.   First, there were formations of the Yugoslav

         18  People's Army and when the Yugoslav army left, then

         19  regularly the Chetniks would appear.

         20       Q.   I am talking about the hospital on 19th and

         21  20th.

         22       A.   I know that the Yugoslav army did not want to

         23  let the Chetniks inside straight away, but after

         24  entering the hospital, this Stanko Duvnjak, Sinisa

         25  Glavasevic and Josip Batarelo, and some others whose

Page 917

          1  names I cannot remember, were captured.

          2       Q.   Among those Chetniks, whatever you wish to

          3  call them, were there local Serbs from Vukovar?

          4       A.   There were.

          5       Q.   Were those people who were familiar with

          6  Vukovar?

          7       A.   Yes.

          8       Q.   Could they show the JNA all the most

          9  important features of Vukovar?

         10       A.   Yes.

         11       Q.   Referring to these three points, the

         12  hospital, the barracks and Ovcara, did you see Slavko

         13  Dokmanovic anywhere else except Ovcara?

         14       A.   No.

         15       Q.   I am referring to the 19th, 18th or any other

         16  day.

         17       A.   No.

         18       Q.   Thank you. Let us pass on to Ovcara so as to

         19  save time. You said that Dokmanovic hit a certain

         20  person called Dado, if I am not mistake.

         21       A.   Dukic, yes.

         22       Q.   Can you tell me where Dokmanovic was standing

         23  and where Dukic, and where he hit him and how he hit

         24  him?

         25       A.   When I was entering the hangar I already

Page 918

          1  found there Mr. Slavko hitting Dukic Dado.

          2       Q.   Where?

          3       A.   He was wounded in the legs and he was hitting

          4  him in the wounds.

          5       Q.   We did not understand one another. At what

          6  place, in which place in the hangar?

          7       A.   Roughly behind that white sign when you enter

          8  the hangar, through the right door, then three or

          9  four metres from the door.

         10       Q.   So roughly in the middle of the hangar?

         11       A.   Yes, roughly.

         12       Q.   Mr. Cakalic, you gave an additional statement

         13  that the Prosecutor reminded you of. On the second

         14  page of that supplement, you said the following:

         15            "Because of the circumstances and the

         16  condition I was in, I could not see who Dokmanovic was

         17  hitting, but it was not me."

         18       A.   But I said that I saw him hitting Dukic. You

         19  can find that in previous statements as well.

         20       Q.   But it is a fact that you did not say that.

         21  I can read you your statement if the court wishes me

         22  to. In your first statement, nor in the supplement did

         23  you mention that you saw Dokmanovic beating someone.

         24       A.   Yes, I did, even in the official note,

         25  I think. We can have a look.

Page 919

          1            MR. FILA:  If your Honour, Mr. President, you

          2  allow me to have the witness read both statements, then

          3  we can see.

          4            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes. Any objection? Thank

          5  you. (Pause).

          6            Mr. Fila --

          7            MR. FILA:  I beg your pardon.

          8            JUDGE CASSESE:  Do you wish the witness to

          9  read a specific line of the statements?

         10            MR. FILA:  Yes.

         11            JUDGE CASSESE:  Could you indicate to him the

         12  line?

         13            MR. FILA:  I have shown him that in both

         14  statements.  I have asked him to find in either

         15  statement the place where he said that Dokmanovic was

         16  beating Dukic. You have two statements that have been

         17  admitted and you cannot find that in either. (Pause).

         18            Will you please look at the supplement?

         19       A.   May I answer?

         20       Q.   Will you please read when you find it, that

         21  you said that you saw Dokmanovic hitting Dado Dukic.

         22       A.   It does not say that but it says that he and

         23  others were beating our wounded.

         24       Q.   You said that you had already said that

         25  Dokmanovic was beating Dukic. I said that was not true

Page 920

          1  because it does not say in either statement that you

          2  said that. On the contrary, it says that you did not

          3  see who he was hitting and this morning you said he

          4  did?

          5       A.   I said that I saw him hitting our wounded and

          6  one of our wounded was Dukic, sir.

          7            MR. FILA:  You said that in both your previous

          8  statements you had said that you saw him beating Dado

          9  Dukic. In your statement it says that he used the baton

         10  on Dado Dukic. You did not mention Dokmanovic at all.

         11            MR. WILLIAMSON:  Your Honour, I would object

         12  at this point. I think the witness has answered the

         13  question and I think at this point he is just arguing

         14  with the witness.

         15            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes. Mr. Fila, I would like to

         16  ask you to move on.

         17            MR. FILA:  How do you explain the sentence

         18  that I just read out to you, from your supplementary

         19  statement, dated 21st April 1996:

         20            "Due to the circumstances and the condition

         21  I was in, I could not see whom Dokmanovic was beating

         22  but he was not beating me."

         23            Let him explain this.

         24       A.   I said that when I walked into the hangar,

         25  that he was beating our wounded. Among our wounded, but

Page 921

          1  it does not say that here, that Dado Dukic was one of

          2  them, but he was there and I saw him. I could swear to

          3  that.

          4       Q.   Do not swear, please.

          5            For how long were you looking at Dokmanovic

          6  at the time in minutes, hours, days, whatever you like.

          7       A.   I was not counting the time, nor was I in

          8  a position to count the time, but I can tell you

          9  roughly. He was in my field of vision for maybe two or

         10  three minutes.

         11       Q.   Before those two or three minutes, were your

         12  people being beaten before and after Dokmanovic?

         13       A.   Yes.

         14       Q.   Can we say then that the beating did not

         15  begin nor stop with Dokmanovic's arrival?

         16       A.   Yes, we can.

         17       Q.   Can you now explain in detail to us, describe

         18  in detail the clothes, or the uniform -- no, rather the

         19  clothing that Dokmanovic was wearing. Start from his

         20  feet, please.

         21       A.   I was not looking at his shoes. I do not know

         22  what kind of shoes he was wearing. I know he had blue

         23  trousers, that he had a blue three-quarter-length coat

         24  also blue, but maybe a little lighter than mine, and on

         25  his head he had a Tito cap with a five-cornered star.

Page 922

          1       Q.   I assume that he had a blouse, or a jacket,

          2  below that three-quarter-length coat.

          3       A.   I did not see that.

          4       Q.   Can you tell us what kind of material was it?

          5  Woollen, fabric or was it a JNA uniform?

          6       A.   It was a blue uniform. The kind of uniforms

          7  that I think JNA pilots used to wear.

          8       Q.   You said that he was a lieutenant colonel of

          9  the JNA. He had his rank, he had the rank of lieutenant

         10  colonel on his shoulder. It is only us that know what

         11  those ranks look like.

         12       A.   They are worn on both shoulders.

         13       Q.   What do they look like?

         14       A.   There were three fields. The two end ones had

         15  a star, and the one in the middle did not have a star

         16  in it.

         17       Q.   Over those stars -- let us be very precise.

         18  Was this on what he was wearing on top, on this coat,

         19  then, yes?

         20       A.   Yes.

         21       Q.   Was this coat made like a wind jacket or was

         22  it a woollen material? A fabric, or was it a synthetic

         23  material like a wind breaker?

         24       A.   I think it was woollen material.

         25       Q.   Now, what else? What was Dokmanovic wearing?

Page 923

          1  You said three-quarter-length coat made of woollen

          2  fabric. Thank you. You said he had a Tito cap on his

          3  head, with a red five-cornered star.

          4       A.   Yes. Whether he wore it afterwards, I do not

          5  know.

          6       Q.   We are only talking about those three or four

          7  minutes when you saw him.

          8       A.   Yes.

          9       Q.   I think it was in answer to a question from

         10  the Prosecutor that you remember events and faces, but

         11  not times so much. What does that mean?

         12       A.   That means that I cannot tell you exactly

         13  what time it is, when you are questioning me and

         14  whether something lasted five minutes or fifteen

         15  minutes.

         16       Q.   But do you know whether it was daylight or

         17  dusk or dark?

         18       A.   Yes, I have already said that, and I will

         19  answer again, if you ask me a question about that.

         20       Q.   I am just going to. The moment the buses

         21  arrived, was it daylight?

         22       A.   Yes.

         23       Q.   Can you tell us roughly what time?

         24       A.   About after 2 pm.

         25       Q.   When you saw Dokmanovic inside, how long

Page 924

          1  after you had arrived was that, roughly?

          2       A.   There were two buses, I was towards the end,

          3  the last in the third, maybe this took about 40

          4  minutes. Maybe about 40 minutes.

          5       Q.   So somewhere before 3 pm?

          6       A.   Yes.

          7       Q.   When you left the hangar, your small group,

          8  was it still daylight, or was it getting dark or was it

          9  dark?

         10       A.   When I came out it was still daylight and

         11  when some other people joined us, dark started to fall.

         12  We did not all come out at the same time. This took

         13  a little time.

         14       Q.   The moment you left the hangar, it was still

         15  daylight. The event with Dokmanovic happened before

         16  that, did it?

         17       A.   Before that.

         18       Q.   After you left the hangar and it was still

         19  daylight you no longer saw Dokmanovic?

         20       A.   No.

         21       Q.   Thank you. You said that when darkness

         22  started to fall, an electric bulb appeared. Was there

         23  a vehicle around, perhaps?

         24       A.   I know there was an electric bulb. I assume

         25  there was a generator because one could hear it. One

Page 925

          1  could hear the sound, but we did not go to check. We

          2  were not in a position to check. The light was

          3  sufficient for the people taking down our names to be

          4  able to write them down.

          5       Q.   Did you perhaps see a vehicle with the lights

          6  switched on entering or facing the door?

          7       A.   When we were taken out of the hangar it came.

          8  A vehicle came in front of the door of Ovcara. It

          9  stopped right next to the road and I do not know how

         10  many, about 10 or 15 soldiers came out in uniform of

         11  the Yugoslav army with helmets and with baseball bats.

         12  They entered the hangar. The soldier on duty closed the

         13  door of the hangar. There was a colonel inside, and

         14  upon his whistle half of them, probably half of them

         15  beat them as much as they would and could, and when

         16  this officer blew his whistle again, then those who

         17  were resting took the other group's place. This was

         18  terrible. The screams. I dream them, you know,

         19  sometimes. I wake up with them and I go to sleep with

         20  them.

         21       Q.   If that means anything to you, I believe you

         22  absolutely, personally. I quite agree with you. That is

         23  terrible.

         24            My question was, was there a vehicle that was

         25  lighting you up, not a vehicle that had brought some

Page 926

          1  people.

          2       A.   The combi made a turn there. Whether there

          3  was any other vehicle... it seems to me that perhaps

          4  there was a passenger vehicle.

          5       Q.   No, a military vehicle. Was there a military

          6  vehicle that was standing in front of you and lighting

          7  you up?

          8       A.   I do not remember that.

          9       Q.   In your supplement, you said that you saw

         10  Slavko Dokmanovic in the media and on television later.

         11  What year was that?

         12       A.   That was in 1991 while we could still watch

         13  television.

         14       Q.   No, I am talking about much later, when you

         15  got to Zagreb you mentioned that.

         16       A.   Yes. I saw him on television. I cannot tell

         17  you the day or the hour. I just remember the event,

         18  seeing him on television.

         19       Q.   Was that 1994, 1995? Is that the period you

         20  are referring to?

         21       A.   I said that I saw him on television when he

         22  became a member of the Serbian National Council. There

         23  was a picture of all of them.

         24       Q.   So I assume they took a picture of them.

         25  I have given the tape to the Prosecution. You will see

Page 927

          1  that he was never a member of the Serbian Council, but

          2  when did you see them later on television? When you got

          3  back to Zagreb?

          4       A.   I saw him the other day on television.

          5       Q.   I believe you. You saw me then, as well, but

          6  I am not talking about that:

          7       A.   Sir, I am talking about events, about all the

          8  events. I am interested in events and I am recounting

          9  those events. I am not learning them by heart to be

         10  able to tell you on such and such a day at such and

         11  such an hour I saw this. I am not even making an effort

         12  to remember such things.

         13       Q.   But in your supplementary statement you said:

         14            "Upon returning to Croatia I saw Dokmanovic

         15  several times on television and in the newspapers."

         16            When was that, even two days after your

         17  return to Croatia.

         18       A.   Well, I told you I saw him the other day

         19  again.

         20       Q.   But can you please tell us, was this 1995,

         21  1994? When?

         22       A.   For instance, it was in 1997 and 1998.

         23       Q.   But in 1996, 1995?

         24       A.   Probably.

         25       Q.   When you saw him at Ovcara that evening, did

Page 928

          1  you hear him say anything?

          2       A.   It was the afternoon, not the evening.

          3       Q.   All right, the afternoon. Apart from

          4  anything, "inspector, how come you were here?", did you

          5  hear him say anything else? Did he give any orders to

          6  anyone?

          7       A.   Perhaps he was, but I did not hear him.

          8       Q.   Therefore, except for this phrase, nothing

          9  else?

         10       A.   Nothing.

         11       Q.   Were you able to conclude anything about him

         12  regarding the JNA and everything else then, not now?

         13       A.   Yes. I was extremely astonished and it

         14  affected me. May I add a few words?

         15            MR. FILA:  No.

         16            MR. WILLIAMSON:  Objection, your Honour. I

         17  think if the witness has something else he would like

         18  to say then he should be allowed to answer it in full.

         19            JUDGE CASSESE:  Objection sustained. Yes.

         20            MR. FILA:  I apologise immediately. I was just

         21  watching the time. Please do say whatever you want.

         22  That is not the problem at all.

         23       A.   I was sorry. I felt embarrassed, in fact,

         24  that I had seen him there and I would have been happy

         25  today not to have seen him there because I was thinking

Page 929

          1  how can an intellectual, a person with whom I had often

          2  talked in his office, who knew those people, I was

          3  asking myself how could he do that? If he had saved

          4  a single one, I would be supporting him today. I have

          5  heard that the man who saved me is an indictee. If

          6  I was in court I would testify in such a way to beg the

          7  court to forgive him. If Mr. Slavko had saved a single

          8  man, I would appeal to the court to forgive

          9  Mr. Dokmanovic, to pardon him.

         10       Q.   Did you know somebody called Vodicka? He was

         11  a vet.

         12       A.   Yes, I did.

         13       Q.   Well, he saved him from Ilok.

         14       A.   From Ovcara?

         15       Q.   No, from Ilok.

         16       A.   But we are talking about Ovcara.

         17       Q.   You have your views, I have mine. Did you see

         18  Professor Licina there?

         19       A.   Yes, he was in the convoy.

         20       Q.   In the bus?

         21       A.   Yes.

         22       Q.   Did you see him at Ovcara? When they were

         23  saved and taken off the bus?

         24       A.   No.

         25       Q.   Did you see him in the bus, perhaps?

Page 930

          1       A.   I was informed, I was informed that he was

          2  taken out of the bus at the barracks. You see, when we

          3  are recounting these things in the camp and elsewhere,

          4  he was apparently taken out in the barracks.

          5       Q.   Was Mr. Berghofer in the same bus with you or

          6  not?

          7       A.   Yes.

          8       Q.   Do you know where he was sitting?

          9       A.   In front of me, maybe two rows in front of

         10  me.

         11       Q.   How did you get off the bus when you reached

         12  Ovcara?

         13       A.   Through the door.

         14       Q.   I mean how, one by one or altogether?

         15       A.   One by one. I will try to explain it a bit

         16  more precisely to you, if you wish.

         17       Q.   In your statement, in your first statement

         18  you said that you were on the bus, and that you were

         19  sitting at the beginning of the first third of the bus,

         20  that next to you was a certain Papp.

         21       A.   Tomislav Papp.

         22       Q.   Yes. And a Josip Adzak and that you did not

         23  know anyone else on that bus.

         24       A.   You see, I have known Berghofer for twenty or

         25  thirty years, you know.

Page 931

          1       Q.   I believe you, but you said that you did not

          2  know anyone.

          3       A.   Sir, at that point, with that kind of

          4  surprise, I mean you would not have recognised me after

          5  half an hour.

          6       Q.   I do not know what I would have done, I was

          7  not in your place.  But you made a statement saying

          8  that you did not see other people. Now you say that

          9  Berghofer was with you.

         10       A.   How could I say that I did not see anyone,

         11  there was a bus full of people.

         12       Q.   I said that you did not recognise anyone and

         13  now that you have known Berghofer for twenty years.

         14       A.   Yes, I do.

         15       Q.   Then how come you did not recognise him?

         16       A.   But I did recognise him. What was I suppose

         17  to do? Give everybody's name who I recognised?

         18       Q.   No.

         19       A.   Sir, there is also a recollection that comes

         20  afterwards. You know you reconstruct a picture in your

         21  mind, often, when necessary, and due to reality,

         22  reality, I talked about reality.

         23       Q.   I forgot to ask you something. When you were

         24  taken out of the hospital, what were the buses like?

         25       A.   They belonged to Cazmatrans and also to the

Page 932

          1  City Public Transportation Company.

          2       Q.   Vukovar's plates?

          3       A.   Yes.

          4       Q.   What colour?

          5       A.   Well, they were red, red. I do not know

          6  whether they had that line on it, you know, their buses

          7  have that line on it.

          8       Q.   I understood you, yes. Red, and they had

          9  Vukovar licence plates. They were not with Zrenjanin

         10  licence plates and Skoplje licence plates, for example?

         11       A.   No. As far as I could see.

         12       Q.   They were not olive green, grey, but they

         13  were normal city buses, right?

         14       A.   I told you.

         15       Q.   Thank you. That is a small thing which seems

         16  to be controversial.  When you were going from the

         17  hospital towards the military barracks, did you go

         18  directly or did you go via Velepromet or did you pass

         19  by Velepromet, because Velepromet is behind.

         20       A.   No, we did not. My bus did not.

         21       Q.   I am asking you about your bus.

         22            You had a watch on you when you were in

         23  Ovcara?

         24       A.   I did, but it did not occur to me to check

         25  what the time was.

Page 933

          1       Q.   All right. That is understandable.

          2            One more question. You mentioned a certain

          3  name, Golac. Was that Ivan Golac?

          4       A.   Yes. There is also a person called

          5  Krunoslav.  They are two brothers, you know.

          6       Q.   This is my last question. You said that

          7  Mr. Dokmanovic had the insignia of the JNA lieutenant

          8  colonel. In a statement of yours you said that perhaps

          9  he was a reservist and perhaps he was an active

         10  officer, right?

         11       A.   They all wore the same uniforms, the reserve

         12  and the active officers.

         13            MR. FILA:  Thank you. That will be all.

         14            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you, Mr. Fila.

         15  Mr. Williamson, would you like to re-examine the

         16  witness?

         17            MR. WILLIAMSON:  Just a couple of questions,

         18  your Honour.

         19            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.

         20                Re-examined by MR. WILLIAMSON

         21       Q.   Mr. Cakalic, how did you recognise

         22  Mr. Dokmanovic at Ovcara?

         23       A.   I have known Mr. Dokmanovic for over fifteen

         24  years, for sure. And I shall probably recognise him

         25  within ten years' time if we are both still alive by

Page 934

          1  then if we get to see each other.

          2       Q.   Did you recognise him because of seeing his

          3  face or because of the clothing he was wearing?

          4       A.   His clothing even surprised me. I recognised

          5  him by his face.

          6            MR. WILLIAMSON: Thank you. I have no further

          7  questions.

          8            JUDGE CASSESE:  Okay. Thank you.

          9            JUDGE MAY:   Mr. Cakalic, would you help me

         10  with this? You say that you worked, is it right, in the

         11  same institution as Mr. Dokmanovic? Which institution

         12  was that?

         13       A.   That is the municipal assembly of Vukovar in

         14  the administration. The administration consisted of

         15  a few departments for social services, health, culture,

         16  finance, et cetera. Those are two buildings. They are

         17  within the same compound. Mr. Dokmanovic worked as

         18  a councillor to the president of the committee for

         19  agriculture.

         20            JUDGE MAY:   Was that in the same building as

         21  you worked or another one?

         22       A.   I used to work in that building, but after

         23  that the committee for social services and the

         24  magistrate judge's court were in the compound elsewhere.

         25            JUDGE MAY:   During the time that you and he

Page 935

          1  worked in the same institution, on average, about how

          2  often did you used to meet him?

          3       A.   An agricultural inspector shared his office

          4  with him and I would often come by Mr. Res, the

          5  inspector, to see him, because we had assignments that

          6  involved both of us and then I would see Mr. Dokmanovic

          7  and we would say, "hello", to each other, we would

          8  exchange a word or two, and that was about it. Whether

          9  it was once a week or once in a fortnight, I really

         10  could not answer that now, but it was rather often.

         11            JUDGE MAY:   And during that time you would

         12  have conversations with him?

         13       A.   We would have conversations. We would shake

         14  hands.

         15            JUDGE MAY:   And did you know him by his

         16  first name?

         17       A.   Yes.

         18            JUDGE MAY:   And he knew you by your first

         19  name?

         20       A.   Sure he did.

         21            JUDGE MAY:   Now, turning to the time at

         22  Ovcara, I know you find it difficult to give times,

         23  definite times, but I just want to be sure about this;

         24  can you help us, for what length of time, while you

         25  were at Ovcara, did you have Mr. Dokmanovic under your

Page 936

          1  observation? Can you give an answer or not?

          2       A.   I observed him when he said my name, that is

          3  to say upon entering the hangar. Then I was beaten up

          4  there. I do not know how long that lasted but I was

          5  beaten a lot, you know? They hit me on the head and

          6  I would fall and I would get on my feet again and at

          7  one point in time when I entered the hangar I saw him

          8  beating our wounded. He was among these wounded and

          9  Dado Dukic was one of the wounded and I was very good

         10  friends with Dado Dukic and I was a friend of the

         11  family, I was friends with his father, Dado Dukic's

         12  father, and I was so shaken, so moved by that. Why did

         13  not I write this in the statement? I do not know.

         14  Perhaps I did not feel it was necessary to give the

         15  names of the wounded who were beaten. I said it in the

         16  plural, "he beat the wounded".

         17            JUDGE MAY:   Yes, you mentioned that, but

         18  again, can you give us an estimate of time or not, that

         19  you had him under observation?

         20       A.   Two minutes, perhaps. Five minutes. It is

         21  hard for me to tell.

         22            JUDGE MAY:   Yes. Well, thank you.

         23       A.   I cannot tell you, sir.

         24            JUDGE MAY:   The final question, which maybe

         25  the counsel can deal with better than the witness, what

Page 937

          1  is a Tito cap? Mr. Fila, can you answer, or

          2  Mr. Williamson? Is it a side cap?

          3            MR. WILLIAMSON:  Your Honour, it is

          4  a four-edge cap, I believe.  It is one of the narrow

          5  things that comes to a point, if you follow me, I know

          6  my hand signals may not be very illuminating.

          7            JUDGE MAY:   Is it easier to demonstrate than

          8  to describe?

          9            MR. WILLIAMSON:  Yes, sir.

         10            MR. FILA:  In your army, in the British army,

         11  they also had such caps. It goes this way, except that

         12  it was grey and it has a red five-pointed star in

         13  front. All armies have it. If you look at the videotape

         14  of the Prosecutor you will see Sljivancanin wearing

         15  one. That is it.

         16       A.   Can I explain what a Tito cap is?

         17            JUDGE CASSESE:  I have a few questions. But

         18  first of all, do you think you could explain to us

         19  what, in fact, were the functions of the president of

         20  the Vukovar municipality assembly? It was not the legal

         21  structure -- not from a legal viewpoint, but in

         22  fact, judging from everyday life. I mean, what were

         23  the main functions of the president of the Vukovar

         24  municipality assembly?

         25       A.   The president of the municipal assembly of

Page 938

          1  Vukovar is the highest organ in charge of the assembly.

          2  The assembly had very important functions; to work out

          3  the budget, to allocate it, to discuss the budget, to

          4  carry out various political functions. Also, to

          5  supervise all the individual departments and

          6  authorities.  Although there was a head of every

          7  department, the president of the municipal assembly had

          8  to make sure that all the authorities functioned

          9  properly. He had the right to call me as the sanitary

         10  inspector to present a report to the assembly, to give

         11  certain segments. Very often I would attend sessions of

         12  the municipal assembly in order to explain certain

         13  health services or certain urban activities in the

         14  territory of the municipality of Vukovar. I do not know

         15  if you are happy with the answer.

         16            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes. May I ask you

         17  a question? For instance, I assume that there was

         18  a municipal police. Was there any police, local police,

         19  and who was in command of this police? Who used to

         20  issue, who was entitled to issue orders to the

         21  municipal police? The president of the municipal

         22  assembly or somebody else?

         23       A.   The police had their own chief of police.

         24  And all the chiefs of the different administrations,

         25  the different agencies, were accountable to the

Page 939

          1  president of the assembly and to the assembly. The

          2  president of the assembly had the right and duty to ask

          3  every one of them to report to him on the situation in

          4  his particular part of the administration, his agency.

          5            The president of the assembly could also

          6  order certain measures to be taken. He could order

          7  mobilisation, and other things.

          8            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you. Now, you said that

          9  between June and November 1991 Mr. Dokmanovic did not

         10  exercise the functions of the Vukovar municipal

         11  assembly. He was replaced by somebody else and you

         12  named his -- it was his deputy who replaced him, and he

         13  was a Croat.

         14            Now, do you know what role he was playing in

         15  this period, between June and November 1991, or what

         16  functions he was exercising outside his job, his

         17  profession? Mr. Dokmanovic?

         18       A.   Dokmanovic?

         19            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes.

         20       A.   I do not know what other functions he had in

         21  addition to the office of the president of the

         22  municipal assembly, in the SDP, in the political party

         23  he belonged to. I do not know what other offices he

         24  held, but the office of the president of a municipal

         25  assembly is the uppermost office, the uppermost post in

Page 940

          1  this territory, comprising some 80,000 people. He had

          2  a lot of work to do as president of the assembly.

          3            For example, the sanitary inspectorate in

          4  charge of preventative medicine and health care, we

          5  were very actively involved in the waterworks system.

          6  We had 21 villages and all villages apart from one had

          7  a waterworks system. The president of the municipal

          8  assembly had a very important function in this respect.

          9  He was supposed to go to various local meetings

         10  and explain on his own or together with someone else

         11  that it was necessary to build this waterworks system.

         12  That is one of the examples I am giving you.

         13            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes, but sorry, I apologise

         14  again for coming back again to my question, but

         15  I understand from what you said before that between

         16  June and November 1991 he did not in fact exercise

         17  those functions because he was replaced by Marin Vilic

         18  who was actually acting as the president of the

         19  municipal assembly of Vukovar in that period, so my

         20  question was, do you know whether he had any other

         21  function either in Vukovar or elsewhere, in addition to

         22  his job, I mean, his normal profession. Did you know

         23  whether he was playing any role, political, military,

         24  or whatever?

         25       A.   I do not know exactly when the government of

Page 941

          1  the Republic of Croatia relieved Mr. Dokmanovic of his

          2  duty as president of the municipal assembly, but

          3  Mr. Dokmanovic probably held a certain office in the

          4  Serb National Council. This was on television once. It

          5  was broadcast on television, representatives of this

          6  council, and there are also books about that. They were

          7  written in the Cyrillic alphabet.

          8            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.

          9       A.   I do not know the name of this book, the

         10  title of this book, but I know that I read about it

         11  somewhere.

         12            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you. I have a few

         13  questions about what happened in the hangar: now, in

         14  your supplementary statement, made on 18th June 1995 --

         15  sorry, 21st April 1996, sorry -- you said that, and

         16  I quote:

         17            "The investigator...[the Tribunal's

         18  investigator]... showed me a number of photographs and

         19  I recognised Slavko Dokmanovic on the photographs L and

         20  M on the set number 2 and on those photos he appears

         21  wearing camouflage uniform different from the one he

         22  wore at Ovcara."

         23            Now, could you tell us what sort of

         24  difference existed between the two uniforms, the one he

         25  was wearing in the picture and the

Page 942

          1  one he was wearing at Ovcara?

          2       A.   At Ovcara he had the one I described a few

          3  minutes ago, and on the pictures he had a camouflage

          4  uniform.

          5            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you. Now, when you were

          6  in the hangar, did you have the impression that

          7  Mr. Dokmanovic was wielding any sort of authority inside

          8  the hangar, that is towards the people who were --

          9  you call them Chetniks or soldiers, JNA soldiers, the

         10  people who were, according to your allegations, beating

         11  up various civilians. Did you feel that he was in a way

         12  above the other ones, that he was issuing instructions

         13  or giving orders or saying something which showed

         14  probably that he had some sort of authority, or was he

         15  on the same footing, as it were, as the other ones,

         16  either Chetniks or, to use your language, the JNA

         17  soldiers?

         18       A.   I would not call Mr. Dokmanovic a Chetnik.

         19  I do not think that he came there with some kind of

         20  authority to issue some kind of orders or something.

         21  I think that he came there at his own initiative.

         22            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes, all right, but I mean,

         23  how did he behave vis-à-vis the other ones who were

         24  there in the hangar, and who, according to you, were

         25  beating up the civilians? Did you get the impression --

Page 943

          1  I am sorry, you probably are a bit tired. Do you want

          2  to have some rest now?

          3       A.   No, no, I am not tired. I am emotional, you

          4  know.

          5            JUDGE CASSESE:  I do appreciate that.

          6       A.   I am sorry, could you please repeat your

          7  question? Please.

          8            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes, but I will not insist,

          9  if you feel that you are emotionally involved.

         10       A.   I can calm down. I can calm down.

         11            JUDGE CASSESE:  What I meant to say, is to

         12  ask you whether you felt, on that particular occasion

         13  that he was not as the other ones, but he was more --

         14  he had more authority, greater authority, that he was

         15  above, as it were, the other ones, that he was in a way

         16  respected by the other people, who were there

         17  beating up civilians.

         18       A.   No, sir. I was the first to respect him. I do

         19  not know if other people respected him, but I did not

         20  have the impression that he was the leader there, that

         21  he was in charge there.

         22            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you. Now, again, while

         23  you were in the hangar, did you see anybody beat to

         24  death the civilians taken to Ovcara? You said they beat

         25  up a few people, including some wounded. Did you see

Page 944

          1  whether somebody was beaten to death?

          2       A.   Yes. Samardzic Damjan and a person called

          3  Kemo Kemal were killed at Ovcara right next to me. They

          4  were two or three metres away from me. I saw Bulic

          5  Milos killing Damjan Samardzic. I saw him kill him.

          6  I was not in a situation to ascertain all the signs of

          7  death but judging by what I could see from a distance,

          8  he was no longer breathing.

          9            Also Kemal.

         10            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you. My last question

         11  is about the general situation, before and after

         12  Ovcara. So you said before that you -- those days you

         13  came in contact, as it were, with, let us say, two

         14  categories of people; Chetniks or, say, paramilitary

         15  people, and members of the JNA. Officers or soldiers.

         16  Now, do you feel that, or did you feel that one group

         17  was in a way issuing instructions, giving instructions

         18  to the other group, say that the Chetniks were

         19  controlling the other group, or vice versa, or were

         20  they, again, on the same footing, acting independently

         21  of each other.  Who was in command of the situation?

         22       A.   I understand. The Yugoslav People's Army was

         23  the regular army of Yugoslavia. They had their ethics,

         24  and I imagine that many of them acted ethically.

         25  However, there was also a different situation there,

Page 945

          1  that the JNA army came, and moved on further from that

          2  terrain and then the Chetniks came in immediately, and

          3  there may be a doubt, in respect of that, namely that

          4  it was agreed upon beforehand.

          5            I did not answer your question fully yet.

          6  I did not see officers of the Yugoslav army who were

          7  beating people up, but I saw members of the police of

          8  the Yugoslav army beating us at the military barracks

          9  when we returned from Ovcara. That is to say, that from

         10  Ovcara we went to Velepromet and then to Modateks and

         11  then back to the room of death and from the room of

         12  death under the leadership of a captain to the military

         13  barracks again, and then from the military barracks to

         14  Mitrovica.

         15            I did not see a single officer of the

         16  Yugoslav army beating someone, with the exception of

         17  Mr. Dokmanovic.

         18            JUDGE CASSESE:  Sorry, if you do not mind me,

         19  asking you another question? I am sorry, I see that you

         20  are a bit tired.

         21       A.   Please do.

         22            JUDGE CASSESE:  At one point in your

         23  statement you said that you were saved. You were saved

         24  by Stevan Zoric, called Cevo? Is it correct? Yes. You

         25  say, "I was saved by a man whose name was Stevan Zoric

Page 946

          1  called Cevo who remembered that I had done him a favour

          2  before the war".

          3            What do you mean by, "saving"? He took you

          4  out, but from what did he save you and do you think he

          5  was aware of the action he was carrying out, namely

          6  that he was singling you out and asking you to come out

          7  and be separated from the other ones?

          8       A.   Yes. At the first moment I did not recognise

          9  Mr. Cevo, until he explained, and then my mind started

         10  working, and I had done something for him which

         11  a colleague of mine had not done, and I imagined he

         12  needed this quickly. Perhaps it was a paper, a document

         13  that he needed for certain purposes. Mr. Cevo saved me,

         14  and had he not saved me I would not be here today.

         15  Every one of the seven of us who were saved at Ovcara,

         16  we all had our saviours, Ivankovic, called Joe. He

         17  saved Berghofer, I think, and he saved...

         18            JUDGE CASSESE:  Do not worry. It is not

         19  important.

         20       A.   All right. He saved at least two more people,

         21  and I am sure that they would have lost their lives

         22  otherwise. So we all had our respective saviours.

         23            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you so much Mr. Cakalic.

         24  I am very grateful to you for answering my questions.

         25  I wonder whether there are any further questions or...

Page 947

          1            MR. WILLIAMSON:  Your Honour, we have no

          2  further questions. We would, however, ask that he not

          3  be released completely yet, although we certainly want

          4  no restrictions put on his travel.

          5            JUDGE CASSESE:  Mr. Fila?

          6            MR. FILA:  I know that I am not entitled to

          7  further questions, but with your permission, can we

          8  identify this person Stevan Zoric? Perhaps it would be

          9  interesting. Was his nickname Cevo?

         10       A.   Yes, Cevo was his nickname.

         11       Q.   Perhaps does he come from Montenegro, from

         12  Cev?

         13       A.   No, no, sir. It is some kind of abbreviation.

         14  Perhaps you also had a nickname, perhaps you had

         15  a friend with some kind of nickname that you cannot

         16  really trace back, so I hardly ever called him Cevo,

         17  but in the statement I also gave his nickname, Cevo.

         18  I mean, he really deserves to have his full name stated

         19  in respect of me. I heard that he was killed in

         20  a traffic accident.

         21            MR. FILA:  Thank you, and I apologise.

         22            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you. So Mr. Cakalic,

         23  thank you very much for coming here to testify. You may

         24  now leave the courtroom, and you shall remain here in the

         25  area.

Page 948

     1                  (The witness withdrew)

          2            MR. WILLIAMSON:  Your Honour, I understand

          3  that the next witness has requested voice alteration

          4  and so I believe we are going to have to take a brief

          5  recess in order to implement that.

          6            JUDGE CASSESE:  All right, so we will have

          7  now -- how long do we need? Ten minutes? Fifteen?

          8  Yes. We stand in recess for

          9  fifteen minutes.

         10            (3.30 pm)

         11                      (A short break)

         12            (3.45 pm)

         13                (The witness entered court)

         14            JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, Mr. Niemann.

         15            MR. NIEMANN:  If your Honour pleases, the next

         16  witness wishes to be referred to with a pseudonym, and

         17  to have the image of his face distorted, and his voice.

         18  Might he be referred to as, "Witness B"?

         19            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes. I would like to ask you

         20  to make the solemn declaration.

         21                     WITNESS B (sworn)

         22            JUDGE CASSESE: You may be seated.

         23                   Examined by MR. NIEMANN

         24       Q.   Witness, throughout the course of your

         25  testimony, we will refer to you by the pseudonym,

Page 949

          1  "Witness B". Do you understand?

          2       A.   Yes.

          3       Q.   I would like you to now look at the piece of

          4  paper that you are now shown and can you answer, "yes",

          5  or, "no", whether that is your correct name.

          6       A.   Yes.

          7            MR. NIEMANN:  And could that be shown to

          8  Mr. Fila? I seek to tender that, your Honour, as the

          9  next exhibit number in order, and might it be tendered

         10  under seal?

         11            THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number 54.

         12            MR. NIEMANN:  Witness B, did you on 14th June

         13  1995 provide a statement to an investigator of the

         14  Office of the Prosecutor of the International Tribunal,

         15  Mr. Dennis Milner, in relation to events that occurred

         16  to you in 1991 at Vukovar and elsewhere?

         17       A.   Yes.

         18       Q.   And was that statement taken down in the

         19  English language and was there an interpreter present,

         20  and did the interpreter read the statement to you in

         21  your own language, the Croatian language, and did you

         22  then proceed to sign each page of the statement?

         23       A.   Yes.

         24       Q.   And would you now look at the document I now

         25  hand you, the document that is appearing in the English

Page 950

          1  language, and... thank you. There is a translation of

          2  that. Perhaps that could be also allocated a number.

          3            Do you see the document in the English

          4  language?  At the foot of each page of that document

          5  does your signature appear?

          6       A.   Yes.

          7            MR. NIEMANN:  I tender that if your Honours

          8  please, and might it be allocated the next number in

          9  order and the translation as A?

         10            THE REGISTRAR:  Yes. That will be exhibit

         11  number 55 and the translation, 55A.

         12            JUDGE CASSESE:  And I assume there is no

         13  objection from Mr. Fila. Thank you.

         14            MR. NIEMANN:  Witness B, again, on

         15  14th September 1995, was a further interview conducted

         16  with you by Mr. Dennis Milner and was a much shorter

         17  statement taken from you on that occasion by Mr. Milner

         18  and, again, was that statement reduced into writing in

         19  the English language and translated to you in the

         20  Croatian language?

         21       A.   Yes.

         22            MR. NIEMANN:  Would you now look at the

         23  document that I show you, please?

         24            Your Honours, we do not have a translation of

         25  this into the Croatian language at this stage, but

Page 951

          1  I can undertake to provide that.

          2            JUDGE CASSESE:  Mr. Niemann, was this document

          3  provided to us? I do not think so.

          4            MR. NIEMANN:  Apparently not to your Honours,

          5  but it was disclosed to the Defence.  But I can have

          6  extra copies made for your Honours. It is a very short

          7  one-page document.

          8            JUDGE CASSESE:  Maybe later on.

          9            MR. FILA:  I have not received it in Croatian.

         10            MR. NIEMANN:  No, I understand that.

         11            Does your signature appear at the foot that

         12  have document?

         13       A.   Yes.

         14            MR. NIEMANN:  I tender that statement, your

         15  Honours. And I have here three copies for your Honours.

         16            THE REGISTRAR:  Marked as Exhibit 56.

         17            MR. NIEMANN:  Witness B, where were you born?

         18       A.   I was born in Vukovar.

         19       Q.   And did you spend the most part of your life

         20  in Vukovar?

         21       A.   Yes. All my life, until I was exiled.

         22       Q.   Did you attend your schooling? Where did you

         23  attend your schooling?

         24       A.   I attended schooling in Vukovar. I graduated

         25  from the High School of Economics in Vukovar.

Page 952

          1       Q.   And after you had completed your schooling,

          2  what did you work at? What was your work?

          3       A.   I worked briefly in the Borovo estate, and

          4  then I spent my whole career in Tranzjukrajke, the

          5  branch office in Vukovar.

          6       Q.   And what was the nature of the business

          7  carried out by that firm?

          8       A.   It was an international transporter and

          9  carrier including exports and imports; in brief,

         10  international transportation.

         11       Q.   Now, did you live with your family in the

         12  city of Vukovar, prior to 1991?

         13       A.   Yes, I did.

         14       Q.   When did you do your military service?

         15       A.   In 1984, 1985.

         16       Q.   And did you then attend a specialist course

         17  for officers?

         18       A.   Yes. I attended special training course, and

         19  I spent a while in Pivka.

         20       Q.   And did you specialise in any particular part

         21  of military activity?

         22       A.   Yes. The engineers, my speciality was pioneer

         23  engineers, which means fortification and mine-laying.

         24       Q.   Now, if I may, I would like to take you to

         25  the commencement of military hostilities in the Vukovar

Page 953

          1  region. Were you in Vukovar during the middle part and

          2  latter part of 1991?

          3       A.   I was.

          4       Q.   And can you -- during the summer of 1991 can

          5  you describe how circumstances changed in Vukovar in

          6  relation to the way of life and the military activity?

          7       A.   It is rather difficult to explain everything

          8  that happened, but obviously it is important from the

          9  present standpoint. The events in Vukovar on 2nd May

         10  totally transformed the situation in the Vukovar

         11  region, reflecting what was happening throughout the

         12  former Yugoslavia, including Slovenia and Croatia.

         13            In any event, with every passing day it

         14  became more and more difficult, or rather everything

         15  was pointing in the direction of a conflict.

         16       Q.   Now, around about the 7th August did your

         17  wife and children leave the Vukovar region?

         18       A.   Yes. They went for so-called, a holiday, or

         19  rather they were moved to the seaside for a period of

         20  three weeks.

         21       Q.   But did you stay on in Vukovar during this

         22  time?

         23       A.   Yes. I stayed, and I continued working on my

         24  house that was still under construction.

         25       Q.   Now, in September of 1991 did you take steps

Page 954

          1  to participate in the defence of Vukovar?

          2       A.   Yes.

          3       Q.   What did you do?

          4       A.   I was called to the municipal assembly

          5  building, and I attended a gathering to which the

          6  selection was made and appointments issued as to the

          7  assignments that would be allotted to people in the

          8  defence of Vukovar.

          9       Q.   And who did you report to when you went to

         10  the municipal assembly building? Who did you go and

         11  see?

         12       A.   I saw the younger Jastreb, Borkovic Branko,

         13  who convened the meeting on authority from Mr. Dedakovic

         14  and then secretary of national defence, Rehak Daniel.

         15       Q.   Now, these gentlemen whose names you have

         16  just given, were they military gentlemen or were they

         17  civilian?

         18       A.   Mr. Borkovic was a military person. Mr. Rehak

         19  was the secretary of national defence, municipality.

         20       Q.   And dealing with the secretary of defence,

         21  was he related -- was he connected to the municipal

         22  authority, municipal government, or was he connected to

         23  the republican government in Zagreb, if you know the

         24  answer to that.

         25       A.   Probably he was connected to both. To both

Page 955

          1  levels of authority.

          2       Q.   And what military organisation was it that

          3  these gentlemen were associated with?

          4       A.   The military organisation was called the

          5  Assembly of People's Guards.

          6            (4.00 pm)

          7       Q.   And was that the forerunner of a particular

          8  military organisation that you can now describe?

          9       A.   Briefly put, it was a part of the Croatian

         10  army, or the then Croatian army.

         11       Q.   Now, when you went to the town hall and you

         12  discussed this meeting that was taking place, were you

         13  assigned any particular duties or tasks?

         14       A.   Yes. I was assigned command of the engineers

         15  unit as part of the defence of the town of Vukovar.

         16       Q.   And were you to have any rank?

         17       A.   No. I had a rank from before, from the former

         18  army, but there was no time or any particular need for

         19  ranks in those days.

         20       Q.   Were you to be referred to as, "commander",

         21  or how were you to be referred to by other members of

         22  this military organisation of Croatia?

         23       A.   They called me, "commander". It was a basic

         24  army unit. A commander and the soldiers.

         25       Q.   And did you have any subordinates?

Page 956

          1       A.   I did have subordinates.

          2       Q.   And how many subordinates did you have?

          3       A.   Shall we say eight, though the number

          4  changed, depending on the circumstances.

          5       Q.   And were you assigned any particular task as

          6  such?

          7       A.   Yes. My task was to lay mines where it was

          8  necessary under the direct command of Jastreb, Mile

          9  Dedakovic, or a young Jastreb or "Hawk", Branko

         10  Borkovic.

         11       Q.   Were you to wear uniforms?

         12       A.   I personally did not have time to sign up for

         13  a uniform because there was a shortage. The town was

         14  under occupation, and the remaining clothing that we

         15  had was saved for the killed officers and men, so all

         16  we had was military boots and we had HV insignia, or

         17  rather National Guards Corps insignia.

         18       Q.   Where was this insignia worn?

         19       A.   Usually it was worn on the shoulder, on the

         20  shoulder, but in view of the circumstances we wore them

         21  wherever possible, wherever we could sew them on. It

         22  was not ruled as to where we should wear them.

         23       Q.   And were you issued with any weapons?

         24       A.   I was supposed to get a weapon, but I was not

         25  issued one, at that point in time.

Page 957

          1       Q.   Now, after you joined up in September, and

          2  during the period of September through October of 1991,

          3  where were you actually located, and what were you

          4  doing? What was the task that you were performing?

          5       A.   We were accommodated in the former School for

          6  Apprentices in the basement, and we carried out our

          7  tasks of mining and fortification building, depending

          8  on the decision of our superior commander, or Jastreb.

          9  And within the scope of the defence of the city.

         10       Q.   Now, from who did you take your orders? Who

         11  did you directly take your orders from?

         12       A.   I said directly from Jastreb, "the Hawk".

         13       Q.   And do you know who his superior was?

         14       A.   I do not know directly, but I can assume it

         15  was either Mr. Tudjman or someone else from the top

         16  leadership.

         17       Q.   And when you say, "Mr. Tudjman", are you

         18  referring to President Tudjman of Croatia?

         19       A.   Yes, the supreme commander.

         20       Q.   Now, in terms of carrying out your military

         21  tasks, can you describe the circumstances and what the

         22  conditions were like during the period September,

         23  October, through to November?

         24       A.   I can say that the psychological and physical

         25  conditions were extremely difficult, and it was all

Page 958

          1  a matter of survival. It was very difficult, and one

          2  never knew what the next day would bring. This went on

          3  from day to day.

          4       Q.   Did all the citizens of Vukovar remain in

          5  Vukovar or did some leave during the course of the

          6  siege?

          7       A.   It is a difficult question to answer. Many

          8  citizens left the city. Some were coming back, and this

          9  was a daily occurrence while it was possible to come

         10  and go from Vukovar.

         11       Q.   Did there reach a stage in November when it

         12  became obvious that the further defence of the city

         13  would become impossible?

         14       A.   It seemed to be that every day, though we

         15  kept fighting for as long as it was possible, or rather

         16  for as long as our command insisted on it.

         17       Q.   And how long was that for?

         18       A.   Until mid-November.

         19       Q.   And what happened in mid-November?

         20       A.   As I have mentioned, because many of the

         21  defence lines had given in under pressure of a superior

         22  force or they had to retreat, or were being destroyed;

         23  first a part of Borovo Naselje was cut off. Actually

         24  the defence was cut after which it collapsed , or

         25  rather the territorial links between various parts of

Page 959

          1  the city were lost. After that, the headquarters was no

          2  longer in place.

          3       Q.   Did the headquarters of the military

          4  forces just break up or did they disband and leave

          5  Vukovar, do you know? Or maybe you do not know.

          6       A.   It is difficult for me to explain even today.

          7  I do not know because simply when I came on that last

          8  day or rather one day in mid-November when I went to

          9  headquarters, there was no one there except for certain

         10  individuals who had sort of got lost.

         11       Q.   So what did you do when confronted with this

         12  situation?

         13       A.   Confronted with this situation, I returned to

         14  my men. I sort of disorganised them, or rather I told

         15  them what had happened, and I told them to head towards

         16  Vinkovci towards, freedom whereas I myself returned

         17  home to my parents.

         18       Q.   And you mentioned mid-November. About what

         19  date was this? Do you know?

         20       A.   Probably 15th or 16th November. I cannot give

         21  the precise date, because in that, those hellish

         22  conditions it was impossible to keep track of time and

         23  the hours.

         24       Q.   And where were your parents at the time?

         25       A.   My parents were in my house, in the basement

Page 960

          1  of my house.

          2       Q.   And how long did you stay in the basement of

          3  your house with your parents?

          4       A.   I said, before that, when I had joined the

          5  defence, so I was there until September. After the

          6  middle of September, I stayed with my parents.

          7       Q.   September or November?

          8       A.   September. September.

          9       Q.   Okay. Well, I think that you told us a moment

         10  ago that the continuation of the defence of Vukovar

         11  ceased to be practical after about the middle of

         12  November. Is that right?

         13       A.   Not that there was no sense, but we were

         14  simply disorganised. We lost our military structure.

         15       Q.   What did you do from the middle of

         16  November onwards? What did you then do?

         17       A.   I said, I returned home to my parents, and

         18  after that talking to them, they were probably

         19  listening to the radio or they simply heard the rumour

         20  that the evacuation of the citizens was being prepared

         21  within the hospital grounds.

         22       Q.   And did you know when this was to occur? Did

         23  you hear when this was to take place, this evacuation?

         24       A.   Not exactly. It was not stated with

         25  precision, but the word was that we should go to the

Page 961

          1  hospital in the morning, so we were told that we should

          2  go to the hospital in the morning.

          3       Q.   And, do you know the morning of what day?

          4       A.   I am confident it was 18th November, maybe

          5  19th. I am not -- I was not quite sure of the date at

          6  the time.

          7       Q.   And did you, in fact, go to the hospital on

          8  that date?

          9       A.   Yes. I went there with my parents.

         10       Q.   Now, when you arrived at the hospital, what

         11  did you see?

         12       A.   I saw a large number of people who had

         13  congregated in the immediate environs of the hospital,

         14  between the old and new wing, and of course I visited

         15  my wounded men within the hospital compound who were

         16  being treated there.

         17       Q.   And are these men that had served with you

         18  during the siege of Vukovar?

         19       A.   Yes. They were the men who were with me in

         20  the unit.

         21       Q.   And are there any of those men's names that

         22  you can now recall?

         23       A.   I do, yes. Of course. They were my comrades

         24  in arms.

         25       Q.   Well, can you tell us their names?

Page 962

          1       A.   I can, if necessary. Darko Kalizan...

          2       Q.   Now, when you went there, apart from visiting

          3  your men, what else did you do? What did you then do?

          4       A.   I registered upon my father's insistence --

          5  as I had been wounded several times, I was entered in

          6  the list of members, the list of the wounded that was

          7  being compiled by Dr. Jozo Tomic.

          8       Q.   And after you had registered with Dr. Tomic,

          9  what was the next thing that happened?

         10       A.   After that, I went outside within the

         11  hospital grounds and I stayed there for a while with my

         12  parents, and then some military or paramilitary forces

         13  came from the city centre, specifically a major of the

         14  former JNA in an armoured vehicle with several

         15  members of his unit, shall we call that. They entered

         16  the hospital grounds through the main gate and this

         17  gentleman, this major, established the security of the

         18  facility. After that, I withdrew. I stayed for a little

         19  while outside and after that I went downstairs to the

         20  basement visiting other members, like Radovan Ilisin

         21  and some others, and that is where I was when night

         22  fell. I spent the night on the first or maybe even the

         23  second floor of the hospital, which was partly

         24  destroyed and the next morning we were called out with

         25  shouts and we were forced out through the emergency

Page 963

          1  door, that is the gynaecology ward where the wounded and

          2  injured people would be brought.

          3       Q.   And who issued these orders and ordered you

          4  to go out?

          5       A.   Some people. I do not know. I cannot tell you

          6  who it was, but the message was passed on and there

          7  were shouts, and these people were passing by and

          8  conveying the message that whoever could walk, who were

          9  mobile, should go outside.

         10       Q.   Was this members of the medical staff of the

         11  hospital or was it part of the Croatian defence forces

         12  or was it somebody else?

         13       A.   No, no. No, no. Those were people who had

         14  come from the outside. In semi civilian clothes or with

         15  parts of military equipment on them, but it is

         16  difficult for me to answer your question now, directly.

         17       Q.   Yes. I do not want you to tell me necessarily

         18  who they were, but did you associate them with the

         19  Croatian side or the Serbian side?

         20       A.   Shall we say the Serbian?  It certainly was

         21  not the Croatian side.

         22       Q.   And when you left the building, what

         23  happened? What was the next thing to happen?

         24       A.   After that, we were lined up in two rows. We

         25  were searched, they were looking for weapons or

Page 964

          1  grenades or knives, I do not know what else, and after

          2  this search we were sent in the direction of

          3  Gunduliceva Street, the side entrance and we were

          4  boarded onto, or rather we had to get onto the buses

          5  that were prepared for that purpose.

          6       Q.   How many buses were there? Can you remember?

          7       A.   As far as I can recall, there were three

          8  buses.

          9       Q.   Were these -- do you know -- had you seen

         10  these buses before?

         11       A.   Yes. They are normal buses with 50-60 seats.

         12       Q.   And do you know what time in the morning this

         13  was, approximately, that you boarded the buses?

         14       A.   It could not have been later than 8 in the

         15  morning.

         16       Q.   And are you able to remember the date that

         17  this took place?

         18       A.   I repeated the date. Probably it was 20th in

         19  the morning: I was not sure myself of the dates any

         20  more.

         21       Q.   Now, when you boarded the buses, what was the

         22  next thing? What happened then?

         23       A.   When we got into the buses we were watched by

         24  a soldier who had his gun pointed at us, the buses

         25  stood there for a while, maybe for half an hour, maybe

Page 965

          1  longer, I do not know. I cannot tell.

          2            The buses were facing Borovo Naselje, which

          3  means in the opposite direction than it was normal in

          4  that one-way street.

          5            After all those buses had been filled, and

          6  after a certain amount of time had elapsed, the buses

          7  made a semicircle on the road. They formed a line, and

          8  they headed in the direction of the town centre.

          9       Q.   Now, who were on the buses? Were they only

         10  people that had come to the hospital to be evacuated or

         11  was it a mixture of people who were patients and

         12  otherwise? Are you able to assist us with that?

         13       A.   It is difficult to answer that question, but

         14  those were the people found in the hospital. All those

         15  in the hospital grounds, or rather in the hospital

         16  building in the basement of the hospital or somewhere

         17  like that, who happened to be there at that moment.

         18  Whether they were regular patients or occasional

         19  patients or civilians it is hard to tell, but probably

         20  they were mixed.

         21       Q.   Were there any guards on these buses?

         22       A.   Yes, I said that a soldier, shall we call him

         23  a soldier, had a weapon pointed at us, a machine-gun

         24  ready and he was looking at us with a threatening look.

         25       Q.   And the soldier that had the machine-gun, was

Page 966

          1  he a regular soldier or was he an irregular soldier?

          2       A.   That can just be an opinion on my part. It is

          3  difficult for me to tell you what status he had, but he

          4  looked like a person doing his military service,

          5  a soldier doing his military service.

          6       Q.   Now, this is the military service with the

          7  JNA.

          8       A.   Something like that.

          9       Q.   Now, when the buses turned around and headed

         10  towards the centre of Vukovar, can you describe where

         11  they went to, please?

         12       A.   Then we went to the centre and we ended up in

         13  the compound of the former barracks, probably it is

         14  still the barracks. The only barracks.

         15       Q.   And by that you mean the JNA barracks?

         16       A.   Yes. At the fairgrounds.

         17       Q.   Now, when they arrived at the barracks, what

         18  happened then?

         19       A.   When we arrived at the barracks, this convoy

         20  of three buses formed a semicircle in the middle of the

         21  compound and since within the compound there were quite

         22  a number of people, crowds of people, who were, I do

         23  not know how to put it, they were circling around the

         24  buses, some of them were threatening, some of them were

         25  shouting, all kinds of things were happening, and then

Page 967

          1  after some time another two or three buses joined us,

          2  coming from the direction of the fairgrounds, or rather

          3  the newly-built entrance, and what direction they had

          4  come from I do not know. I cannot tell. And we stayed

          5  there for quite some time, listening to curses,

          6  threats, insults, and after this time period had

          7  elapsed or rather two or three hours or maybe more,

          8  maybe less, it is difficult to say, the convoy left the

          9  barracks, and went out to the main road, and headed

         10  towards Negoslavci, out of Vukovar.

         11            Before Negoslavci it turned left to a road

         12  envisaged for farm work. It was really a short-cut that

         13  brought us to the agricultural estate, the co-operative

         14  for pig rearing and firms that engaged in other

         15  activities as well.  We were led to a point in front of

         16  the hangar within the area of Ovcara.

         17            MR. NIEMANN:  Thank you. Now, might the

         18  witness be shown Exhibit P20, please?

         19            I would like you to look at this exhibit

         20  which is -- on the overhead projector if you would for

         21  me, please, Witness B -- and I would like you to start

         22  with the first photograph, and just going through them

         23  photograph one after the other, and if you just say the

         24  first photograph, second photograph and third

         25  photograph as we go through, can you, with a pointer,

Page 968

          1  trace the journey right through to the point where you

          2  reach the Ovcara farm? Can you do that for me, please?

          3            You will need to -- when you actually

          4  explain where you are going and so forth, you will need

          5  to speak into your microphone because otherwise your

          6  voice will not be picked up, so it is a bit difficult

          7  to do both, but I would ask you to bear with us on

          8  that.

          9       A.   We were taken out here. This is the entrance

         10  to the surgery ward, and we were lined up in two lines

         11  here.  We were searched and then we were sent under

         12  escort to Gunduliceva Street and we boarded the buses

         13  there. (Indicated).

         14       Q.   The witness is referring to the first

         15  photograph in the booklet.

         16       A.   Can I move on to the other photograph now?

         17       Q.   Yes.

         18       A.   The buses were lined up on this side, if you

         19  look at it from here, and they were facing the back of

         20  this vehicle, that is to say Borovo Naselje. Actually,

         21  against traffic rules, because this was a one-way

         22  street towards the city. We boarded the buses there,

         23  and on this same road the buses made a U-turn and moved

         24  in the other direction.

         25       Q.   The witness is referring to the second

Page 969

          1  photograph. Now could you move on to the next

          2  photograph?

          3       A.   This is where the buses were. They made

          4  an U-turn, and they started moving towards the centre

          5  of town in a convoy, that is to say Gundeliceva, the

          6  square of Marko Oreskovic, Bozidara Adzije, down

          7  towards Dimitrija Tucovica.

          8            The next photograph. Further on Tucovica

          9  Street and then to this cross-roads, to the centre and

         10  then to the right towards Velepromet, Zmajeva Street,

         11  and then further on we cannot see much more, so could

         12  we move on to the next photograph?

         13            We went back to the street of Bozidara

         14  Adzije, across the bridge and towards the centre.

         15            As I said, across the bridge and towards the

         16  centre. The street of Dimitrija Tucovica, towards the

         17  centre, towards the right, towards Zmaj Jove Street and

         18  then further up. Towards the next --

         19       Q.   Witness referring to the sixth photograph,

         20  now moving on to the seventh.

         21       A.   We are still in the centre of town. We are

         22  moving to the right, to Zman Jove, that is the name of

         23  the street then, I do not know if it is still called

         24  that. I am sorry, I am sorry. We are here, this is Zmaj

         25  Jove, and then up to Kraseva, towards the fairgrounds.

Page 970

          1  Can we move on to the next photograph?

          2       Q.   Now moving on to the eighth photograph.

          3       A.   We are still in Zmaj Jove and we are moving

          4  further up towards the intersection, towards Kraseva,

          5  towards the fairgrounds.

          6       Q.   The ninth photograph?

          7       A.   We are still moving towards Kraseva, we are

          8  moving further up towards the fairgrounds. We can move

          9  on to the next photograph.

         10       Q.   The tenth photograph.

         11       A.   We continue along Kraseva and move to the

         12  fairgrounds.

         13       Q.   Eleventh photograph.

         14       A.   This is an intersection, Kraseva and the

         15  street of the fairgrounds. We move further, on to the

         16  next photograph.

         17       Q.   Twelfth photograph.

         18       A.   This is the intersection. That is the Kraseva

         19  and the street of the fairgrounds towards the military

         20  barracks.

         21       Q.   Thirteenth photograph.

         22       A.   This is the military barracks. We came here

         23  from town and we turned to the left. This was the new

         24  entrance to the military barracks, and then we made

         25  a semicircle and the buses stood here. (Indicates).

Page 971

          1  Three of them, and then at least two or three other

          2  buses joined the convoy here along this road, and after

          3  having joined us and after we stayed there, and were

          4  mistreated in different ways and threatened and who

          5  knows what else they did, what I did see and what I did

          6  not see, then we were driven back to this same entrance

          7  or rather exit and then we turned to the left, towards

          8  Negoslavci, that is to say out of town in the direction

          9  of Negoslavci, the village of Negoslavci.

         10       Q.   The next photograph? I think we can skip the

         11  next two photographs, 14 and 15.

         12            The next one? The 16th photograph?

         13       A.   This is the road that leads out of town and

         14  from fairground, and that moves towards the village of

         15  Negoslavci.

         16       Q.   Next photograph? 17?

         17       A.   This is the way out of Vukovar in the

         18  direction of Negoslavci. We turned to the left then.

         19  I am not sure whether this is exactly the point where

         20  we turned to the left, or whether it was an asphalt

         21  road. I had the impression that this is not an asphalt

         22  road, but at any rate, we turned to the left and we

         23  went further on.

         24       Q.   18th photograph, the next one.

         25       A.   It is the same cross-roads, but I do not have

Page 972

          1  the impression that this is the right cross-roads. We

          2  turned to the left towards Ovcara either here or a bit

          3  further after this.

          4       Q.   The next photograph, number 19?

          5       A.   This is probably the direction from which we

          6  came, and then we turned to the right, and continued

          7  towards the Ovcara farm, most probably.

          8       Q.   Number 20?

          9       A.   Continued along this road, in this direction,

         10  and then to the left and then again a bit to the left

         11  towards the Ovcara farm and then to the right, to the

         12  right, to the hangar, to a hangar.

         13       Q.   Number 21?

         14       A.   That is it from a different vantage point.

         15  This is the road that we took, and the convoy brought

         16  us here, and stopped in front of the hangar, and bus

         17  after bus was unloaded.

         18       Q.   Number 22?

         19       A.   That is to say that we are already in the

         20  Ovcara area, and we are moving towards the hangar, and

         21  we stopped there by the entrance to the hangar.

         22       Q.   Thank you. Just leaving that there for the

         23  moment, and perhaps the exhibit can be left on the ELMO

         24  machine for the time being.

         25            Now, Witness B, you said that you arrived at

Page 973

          1  the hangar, that you have just pointed to on Exhibit

          2  20, and what happened then, once the buses pulled up at

          3  that spot, that place?

          4       A.   What happened? The passengers, so to speak,

          5  disembarked, one by one, and they did not really run

          6  the gauntlet. You could not see it here yet, but they

          7  were grabbing everything away from these people,

          8  everything that they had on them, their personal

          9  belongings, anything of any value, jackets, whatever.

         10  They were grabbing it and then they started mistreating

         11  them. People were forced to pile up their personal

         12  belongings on a big heap that they had on them at that

         13  point, and then they were taken to -- into the hangar

         14  itself where they ran the gauntlet. I mean, these

         15  people who were there to meet us, they were beating us

         16  with batons and all sorts of things they had in their

         17  hands. They had shovels, they had iron bars, they had

         18  weapons, they used their hands and arms and legs,

         19  whatever they could, and after that, as the buses were

         20  unloaded, then people disembarked and were in the

         21  hangar where the torture continued, and the

         22  mistreatment with greater or lesser intensity. They

         23  really mistreated some people and other people a bit

         24  less but it was hell out there.

         25       Q.   What bus were you in, in the order? Do you

Page 974

          1  remember?

          2       A.   I think that I was on the third bus, perhaps.

          3       Q.   And did you have a watch on your possession

          4  at the time when you got out of the bus?

          5       A.   Yes. Yes. Yes, I still had it.

          6       Q.   And what happened to your watch?

          7       A.   As I ran the gauntlet it was broken because

          8  I had received several blows. My body, my head, and of

          9  course my watch could not take all of that. It was

         10  broken.

         11       Q.   Were you hit -- you said, I think, that you

         12  were hit on the head. What were you hit on the head

         13  with?

         14       A.   Probably an iron bar, because I received

         15  a severe blow and after that there was a big swelling

         16  on my head and after that, as I ran the gauntlet, I was

         17  hit several times and then I was thrown onto the straw

         18  that was in part of the hangar.

         19       Q.   Who hit you on the head? Did you know? Did

         20  you see?

         21       A.   No. No. There was such a lot of commotion,

         22  such a lot of dust, it was impossible to notice anyone

         23  in that kind of situation.

         24       Q.   Did these people appear to you to be regular

         25  soldiers or were they paramilitaries, or were you able

Page 975

          1  to ascertain that?

          2       A.   I could only conclude while I was viewing it

          3  from the outside, as people before me had to put aside

          4  their personal belongings, as they had their things

          5  taken away from them, I could see that this was a group

          6  of different people. They were wearing different

          7  clothes, and it was a mob, to put it mildly. Also, with

          8  some insignia of the former JNA.

          9       Q.   And did you recognise any people in this mob

         10  that you saw, that were hitting and beating?

         11       A.   Yes, yes.

         12       Q.   And are you able to give the names of any of

         13  the people that you saw and recognised?

         14       A.   With great difficulty. Before I disembarked

         15  I saw Dusan Borovac, called Dule, for example. He was

         16  a salesperson from Gvozdzara. That is to say, one of

         17  the local people who lived in Vukovar. At that point in

         18  time I saw him. I can say that with certainty.

         19       Q.   Now, when you went inside the hangar, and you

         20  sat on the hay that you spoke of, were people being

         21  beaten in there, inside the hangar?

         22       A.   I said so, that the terror continued with

         23  greater or lesser intensity. 10 or 15 or 20 people were

         24  going around in circles and they would question one

         25  person and then another person and torture him and beat

Page 976

          1  him using all the resources they had available, such

          2  as rifles, for example, they would use a rifle butt to

          3  hit people. They even had baseball bats. They had some

          4  wooden sticks, not to mention that they used their

          5  hands and arms and feet and legs, military boots.

          6            Dukic Vladimir, called Dado, was heavily

          7  wounded in his upper thigh. He had wounds from gunshots

          8  and he had crutches and he had a lot of trouble

          9  boarding the bus and I do not know how he managed to

         10  get there through the hangar. They used his own

         11  crutches that he used in order to walk so they were

         12  breaking his body with his very own crutches, and as

         13  I said, they would perhaps beat the people they knew

         14  even more, or the people who said they were not from

         15  Vukovar. They were even more cruel and more brutal

         16  towards them because they thought that it was none of

         17  their business being in Vukovar, and many people were

         18  hurt very badly.

         19            One of them was very close to me and

         20  I imagine that he was killed as a result of the

         21  injuries sustained because he was even forced to sing

         22  the song "Sindjelic" and other Chetnik songs. As long

         23  as he had any breath left he had to sing and they

         24  continued beating him and kicking him, I imagine, until

         25  he died. His nickname was Kemal. I mean, the victim's

Page 977

          1  name was Kemal.

          2       Q.   And you say you imagine that he died. What do

          3  you mean by that? Did he appear to be dead to you or

          4  what are you saying?

          5       A.   After everything, he seemed dead to me. He

          6  could not move any more, and I do not know what

          7  happened to him afterwards. He was very close to me.

          8       Q.   After all the buses had emptied out, about

          9  how many people could you estimate were in the

         10  building?

         11       A.   It is difficult to estimate and to be sure,

         12  but probably it was between 200 and 300.

         13       Q.   Did anyone in particular appear to be in

         14  charge of the persons who were doing the beatings?

         15       A.   There was a big man in an olive green/grey

         16  uniform of the former JNA without any insignia rank. He

         17  was a very big man. He wore a moustache and he had

         18  a whistle. He used a whistle. He would channel the

         19  activities of the others and he would stop them or tell

         20  them to continue. I mean, these people who were

         21  committing all these atrocities, that is to say that he

         22  used a whistle as a means of communication with his

         23  subordinates, perhaps that is what we should call them

         24  but when they were maltreating people and going around,

         25  a few others held automatic rifles pointed at us and

Page 978

          1  there was local Vukovar people among them, reservists,

          2  most probably.

          3       Q.   Would you now look at the photograph, the

          4  next photograph in the booklet, there, please? On the

          5  table beside you? It is Exhibit P20 and the photograph

          6  you have to look at is the 23rd photograph.

          7       A.   Yes.

          8       Q.   Do you recognise what is shown there?

          9       A.   Yes. This is the hangar, except that then it

         10  was without these vehicles, and it was partly full of

         11  straw, and the hangar had a few entrances or exits and

         12  this is the main entrance where we ran the gauntlet and

         13  where we were beaten up.

         14       Q.   Can you go on to the next photograph,

         15  photograph number 24?

         16       A.   Well, it is difficult to see where one is

         17  from this point. If the entrance is here, it is hard to

         18  say now, we ran the gauntlet here and we were thrown

         19  into the room at this point. (Indicated).

         20       Q.   And the next photograph, photograph 25?

         21       A.   Yes. This is also the hangar. As I said, the

         22  hangar has several entrances, so it is difficult for me

         23  to orientate myself where the main entrance was. For

         24  example, if it was on this side then we ran the

         25  gauntlet here. (Indicated).

Page 979

          1       Q.   Thank you.

          2       A.   You are welcome.

          3       Q.   In addition to people being beaten during the

          4  period of time that they were there, were -- was there

          5  anything else that was happening that you were able to

          6  observe?

          7       A.   A list was made. How should I put this, of

          8  all the prisoners, of all the victims. There was

          9  a soldier, neat and tidy, in an olive green/grey

         10  uniform with a moustache, a short haircut, camouflage

         11  uniform, and he made a list of all the detainees, and

         12  after a certain period of time dusk had fallen -- night

         13  had fallen, most probably, because it was almost winter

         14  time, and some generators were turned on, something,

         15  that provided electricity, light, from outside. And in

         16  the meantime, as I said, they were going in and out,

         17  these people who mistreated, abused, and tortured

         18  people.  And after night fell, after some time, people

         19  started going out, 10 or 15. They would say how many

         20  people should line up in a queue, and then they were

         21  taken out of the hangar area.

         22       Q.   Who ordered them to line up?

         23       A.   Well, the soldiers. Those who had weapons.

         24  I cannot say exactly who gave the direct order for

         25  that, but the soldiers who were there. They lined the

Page 980

          1  people up and took them out, so, it happened every 10

          2  or 15 minutes, as I said. They were taken out.

          3       Q.   Now, when the men were taken out, did you

          4  hear anything?

          5       A.   I did not notice it in particular, because

          6  there was a lot of noise. There was a truck or

          7  a generator that was on, so there was a lot of noise

          8  coming in from the outside, so I did not notice

          9  anything in particular except for that noise.

         10       Q.   Now, you say the men were selected in groups

         11  of fifteen or maybe more. Was this selection, did it

         12  appear to be done on a systematic basis, or was it --

         13  were they just sort of selected according to where they

         14  were positioned?

         15       A.   No, it was not systematic, it was purely

         16  technical. They went according to the position that

         17  people took in the hangar, that is to say they started

         18  from the door, mechanically, not selectively, except in

         19  terms of numbers, most probably.

         20       Q.   And where were you positioned in the hangar,

         21  in relation to the door, I should say.

         22       A.   Quite far away, somewhere in the

         23  middle. Perhaps third, fourth or fifth group. It is

         24  hard to say, but in any event I was not among the first

         25  nor among the last.

Page 981

          1       Q.   Did you recognise or know any of the men that

          2  were taken out in these groups?

          3       A.   Well, it is hard to say. I knew the people

          4  right next to me that I really saw, but I cannot really

          5  say about the others.

          6       Q.   Can you say their names, the names of any of

          7  the people?

          8       A.   Those who were closer to me and that

          9  I recognised who were there, there was, for instance,

         10  Stanko Duvnjak, a policeman in Vukovar, Milan Greza who

         11  was a police inspector, Drago Krizan, Vladimir Dukic,

         12  Zvonko Jarenica, the young Zambta Slaven, Vukojevic,

         13  Damir, who was a driver in the hospital, Kemal, whom

         14  I believe they beat to death on the spot. Those are

         15  some of the names I can recall now.

         16       Q.   Did the time come when you were selected to

         17  go outside?

         18       A.   Yes. I said maybe the third, fourth, or even

         19  fifth group, so I too was taken out, and boarded onto

         20  a military vehicle of about 2 tonnes carrying capacity

         21  with a canvas cover, and several of us were loaded on,

         22  a certain number. I cannot be sure about the number of

         23  people. But some of those people I know, that were

         24  around me, such as, for instance, Zeljko Jurela, Mato

         25  Perak, whom I knew well from before.

Page 982

          1            (5.00 pm)

          2       Q.   Are you able to assist us by saying

          3  approximately how many people were in your group?

          4  I know you cannot be precise, but if you could just

          5  give us an approximation of the numbers?

          6       A.   If we say about 10, 10-15. It is really

          7  difficult to say, because one could not at that moment

          8  focus on numbers and faces, but judging by the size of

          9  the truck, one can deduce how many there were roughly

         10  because it is a standard military vehicle of about 2

         11  tonnes which has a certain capacity as to the number of

         12  people that could be loaded on. We were not too

         13  crammed, so there were 10-15, I would say.

         14       Q.   How did you board the truck?

         15       A.   We boarded it through the middle with the use

         16  of folding steps.

         17       Q.   What were the weather conditions like

         18  outside? Can you describe the night?

         19       A.   It was night, night. But there was a moon so

         20  it was not pitch dark. The skies were lighted after

         21  all, were lit.

         22       Q.   When you boarded the truck, was there any

         23  soldiers in the back of the truck with you or was it

         24  just prisoners in the back?

         25       A.   No. Just prisoners.  After loading us, the

Page 983

          1  soldier folded the steps and locked the entry as most

          2  of the truck was covered with canvas. And then they got

          3  on to the driver's seat next to the drivers.

          4       Q.   Where were you sitting in the truck when you

          5  boarded it?

          6       A.   I can hardly remember whether I was sitting

          7  at all. But shall we say on the left-hand side of the

          8  truck, looking at it from the side we boarded it, so

          9  when you climb up in the back to the left-hand side,

         10  somewhere in the middle.

         11       Q.   And by, "the middle", you mean you were

         12  seated somewhere in the truck between the front and the

         13  back?

         14       A.   Yes. Yes.

         15       Q.   Did the truck have a -- any sort of flap or

         16  canvas covering on the back of it as opposed to the

         17  top, or was that left open?

         18       A.   I said that it was entirely covered with

         19  a canvas, even the back. Shall we say, about

         20  80 per cent was covered. There was just a little space

         21  left for people to get in in the middle, so there was

         22  this small opening through which we crawled into the

         23  truck, after which the steps were folded and locked and

         24  the space was actually closed in.

         25       Q.   What happened then?

Page 984

          1       A.   Having boarded, then we went back to the road

          2  we had come along, or rather we turned right in

          3  relation to the hangar, and continued our way more or

          4  less the way we had come, in the direction of

          5  the locality of Grabovo and after about a kilometre,

          6  a kilometre and a half, we came across a slope,

          7  downward slope in the road. The truck slowed down and

          8  turned left, on to a field road through a wood. This is

          9  marshland between Ovcara and Grabovo, and we drove

         10  further in a direction unknown to us. We were told we

         11  were being taken to another hangar that we were just

         12  being transported, and after some time one of the

         13  prisoners thought and wanted to jump off.  Another one

         14  prevented him from doing that. He persuaded him not to.

         15  He was hesitant, and finally he gave up. At that moment

         16  I decided. I crawled through the space between the

         17  steps and jumped off through the back.

         18       Q.   Now, what happened when you jumped off the

         19  truck?

         20       A.   I jumped off the truck. I turned around to

         21  see whether anyone was following me, and I headed

         22  towards Vukovar, or rather back, shall we say, in the

         23  direction of the hangar, in that direction, anyway.

         24  Anyway, in the direction of the town of Vukovar. And as

         25  I was moving away I would turn around from time to

Page 985

          1  time. I was putting more and more distance between us,

          2  and as this was a valley I climbed up, and continued,

          3  as I said, in the direction of Sajmiste, for the

          4  purpose of easy orientation, and as I moved away, after

          5  some time, maybe a few seconds, or a minute, anyway not

          6  long after that I heard a short burst of fire, and

          7  a couple of individual shots. That was the last

          8  I heard, and I continued moving away, at times running,

          9  at times walking, or rather fleeing, in the direction

         10  of Vukovar.

         11            MR. NIEMANN:  Now, I would ask you to do this

         12  for me if you would, please. Would you look at Exhibit

         13  20, at the last photograph, and I have also got another

         14  photograph here which I would like to have marked with

         15  the next Prosecution exhibit number, if you would,

         16  please.

         17            Your Honours, just to explain, the photograph

         18  that I am having marked now is in fact the same as the

         19  photograph shown in exhibit -- the 26 photograph, but

         20  would I like the witness to make some markings on the

         21  one I have given him.

         22            THE REGISTRAR:  This document is marked as

         23  Exhibit 57.

         24            MR. NIEMANN:  Witness B, for the moment, would

         25  you just compare the two photographs and, for the

Page 986

          1  record, can you just indicate whether they appear to be

          2  the same?

          3       A.   Yes, yes.

          4       Q.   And now, perhaps Exhibit 20 can be removed

          5  and would you put the single photograph on the ELMO

          6  machine for me, please?

          7            I think you will find there a blue

          8  coloured -- that can be handed back to the Registrar,

          9  the original exhibit. (Handed).

         10            On the machine table in front of you I think

         11  you might see a blue-coloured Texter pen. Would you be

         12  so kind as to mark on that by drawing with the pen, the

         13  route that you followed in the vehicle, stopping

         14  firstly at the point where the dip in the road is. Can

         15  you do that for us, and explaining as you go along your

         16  journey that night?

         17       A.   The dip starts here. The lowest point is

         18  here, and then it starts climbing again. (Indicates).

         19            MR. NIEMANN:  Perhaps to assist your Honour,

         20  if the lights could be dimmed slightly, I think we

         21  might get a better view of it, and if we can move that

         22  into the centre of the screen, more; now, I want you to

         23  actually start at the hangar where your vehicle, you

         24  boarded the vehicle.

         25       A.   The hangar is here. (Witness marks

Page 987

          1  photograph).

          2       Q.   Mark it heavily so it makes it very clear.

          3            Is that the point where the road dips? Can

          4  you just put a --

          5       A.   Yes.

          6       Q.   -- an X at the point where the road dips?

          7       A.   Somewhere here, shall we say. (Witness marks

          8  photograph).

          9       Q.   Okay. Now, where does the field road start?

         10  Can you indicate that, please?

         11       A.   Where it stops? Where it starts?

         12       Q.   Where it starts, yes.

         13       A.   Here. It starts here. This is the road and

         14  here it becomes a field road. You can see it going

         15  through the woods. (Witness marks photograph).

         16       Q.   Okay, if you would mark that, please, the

         17  route of the field road, to the point where you jumped

         18  off the vehicle, approximately.

         19       A.   Maybe like this. Maybe here. (Witness marks

         20  photograph).

         21       Q.   Now, when you jumped off the vehicle, what

         22  did you then do?

         23       A.   I started running and climbing up and

         24  I continued running and fleeing towards Vukovar.

         25            MR. NIEMANN:  Thank you. That photograph can

Page 988

          1  now be returned.

          2            I have here a map of the area I would ask you

          3  to look at for me too, please, and perhaps that might

          4  be numbered the next exhibit number in order. I have

          5  a copy for the Defence of that. That should be made

          6  available to them. This is a map that has already

          7  previously been provided to the Defence but it is an

          8  expanded version of it.

          9            Now, again, Witness B, I would ask you to put

         10  that on the screen to orientate yourself to the map,

         11  and this time I would like you to do a little more for

         12  me, if you would. Would you please, as best you can,

         13  trace the whole of the journey out to Ovcara and then

         14  to the point where approximately you leave the vehicle

         15  and then the route that you followed in the course of

         16  your escape.

         17       A.   Very well. With the blue marker?

         18       Q.   Yes, thank you. As you are doing that, you

         19  might just describe what you are doing:

         20            If you cannot be precise in Vukovar, do not

         21  be concerned about that. Just do it in a general way

         22  and perhaps be more precise when you reach the country

         23  roads.

         24       A.   Yes. This is -- let us say that the hospital

         25  is here then we went down to the centre via the

Page 989

          1  fairgrounds. Here somewhere is the barracks, then from

          2  the barracks in the direction of Negoslavci, here,

          3  somewhere here, before Negoslavci, Negoslavci, the road

          4  turns off to the left, then the right, then this is the

          5  hangar. This is where we were unloaded. After that, the

          6  transport started. The depression, the dip, then the

          7  field road and I jumped off here somewhere; and

          8  I started retracing my steps towards Vukovar. (Witness

          9  marks map).

         10       Q.   Perhaps if you could do that in broken dotted

         11  lines it might be a little easier, just so that we

         12  know, as you trace your trip back.

         13            As you are tracing your trip back from the

         14  point where you are now, if you just break the lines

         15  with broken lines it will indicate the return trip.

         16       A.   I can. I have already started, but never

         17  mind. I shall break the line now. Through the little

         18  wood, through the corn, the fairgrounds, I crossed the

         19  road, then I took the Petrovacki Drum road, then the

         20  road to Bogdanovci, left on Bogdanovci, then again in

         21  the direction of Vinkovci. And on towards Vinkovci, and

         22  I reached a village which I thought was Ceric. I had

         23  almost passed it, and as I was dehydrating, and after

         24  this long march, if I can call it that; I retraced my

         25  steps and found a shelter and I woke up some

Page 990

          1  reservists, probably of the JNA, and I was captured.

          2            MR. NIEMANN:  Thank you. Yes. I now tender

          3  both those exhibits, if your Honours please.

          4            THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit 57 and

          5  58.

          6            MR. NIEMANN:  After you were captured by the

          7  reservists, what was the next thing that happened to

          8  you?

          9       A.   The rest of that night I spent in a room in

         10  that building where they were staying, and in the

         11  morning they took me, they drove me to their

         12  headquarters, somewhere in the centre of the village,

         13  and of course they discussed what to do with me. In the

         14  meantime, some reservists spoke to me. They would hit

         15  me now and then. They took a gold coin that I still had

         16  in my pocket that my father had given me before

         17  leaving. They found it. They hit me in the eyebrows so

         18  I started bleeding a little. I did not spend a lot of

         19  time there waiting to see what would happen. Then they

         20  put me on a truck again and transported me to Stari

         21  Jankovci. Again, in a house which had been transformed

         22  into some kind of a headquarters. I was put up in

         23  a basement. I was beaten there as well as the others

         24  who were there. They were prisoners from Vukovar.

         25       Q.   And were you interrogated during this time at

Page 991

          1  any stage?

          2       A.   Yes. In the meantime we were, or rather

          3  I was, taken for interrogation by a captain who

          4  interrogated me, asking about my activities during the

          5  war, and after some time I was returned to the basement

          6  and then up, then down, and this went on, and then

          7  I spent another night there. I was -- he moved me to

          8  a room, attached me to the radiator with handcuffs.

          9  I spent the night there and then the next night,

         10  together with the others who were in the basement,

         11  I was put on a combi-van and transported to Sid, to the

         12  police station in Sid.

         13            There we were thrown or put into a small

         14  room and after some time we were taken individually,

         15  each one of us for interrogation. Again, there were

         16  questions as to what had happened during the war, who

         17  did what, and after --

         18       Q.   Apart from what had happened during the war,

         19  were you questioned about anything else?

         20       A.   Yes. I was asked all kinds of things.

         21  Everything I knew, what had been happening. He

         22  mentioned also Ovcara. Everything that he could think

         23  of, anything that occurred to him and after this

         24  relatively short interrogation I was returned to the

         25  room and then shortly some men came who took us out and

Page 992

          1  beat us with their hands and legs and then like that

          2  they boarded us onto another truck and they drove us

          3  off.

          4            Later we realised that we had been

          5  transported to the prison in Sremska Mitrovica. We were

          6  searched once again there.

          7       Q.   Just stopping for a moment, when you were

          8  questioned about Ovcara, can you remember what was

          9  asked of you about Ovcara when you were in Sid?  What

         10  did they say to you about Ovcara?

         11       A.   They asked what I knew about Ovcara, how many

         12  people had been killed and whether anyone had been

         13  killed. I simply did not want to discuss that matter

         14  with that man, so...

         15       Q.   Did you gain an impression of whether or not

         16  he was aware of what had happened at Ovcara, from what

         17  he said, from the questions that he asked you?

         18       A.   My impression was that he was looking for

         19  information, whether anything was known about Ovcara,

         20  but since I did not show any interest in discussing

         21  this topic, we went on to other topics, and then he

         22  sent me back to the cell.

         23       Q.   Did you feel that you may have been in danger

         24  if you discussed Ovcara?

         25       A.   Certainly. I was constantly in danger.

Page 993

          1       Q.   And then you went to Sremska Mitrovica and

          2  how long were you retained there?

          3       A.   I was there from, shall we say, 22nd of

          4  November 1991 right through 4th February 1992, but on

          5  15th January, after interrogation, and when detention

          6  was ruled by judgement of the military court, I was

          7  transferred to isolation where I stayed until 4th

          8  February when I was transferred to the military

          9  investigative prison in Belgrade.

         10       Q.   And when you got to Belgrade, what happened

         11  then?

         12       A.   We were accommodated. I was not alone. We

         13  were transferred to various cells. Most often there

         14  were eight to a cell and we were mixed; reservists and

         15  other members of the Yugoslav army who had committed

         16  a crime or an offence such as burglary or murder, and

         17  other things that had happened in their army. Most

         18  frequently avoiding mobilisation and other problems of

         19  that kind, so we were put up together with these people

         20  into cells.

         21       Q.   Were you charged with any crime?

         22       A.   Yes. I was charged with armed revolt and

         23  crime against the civilian population.

         24       Q.   And did you come to learn of any evidence

         25  that was used against you in relation to these charges?

Page 994

          1       A.   No. There were no arguments nor was there any

          2  evidence.

          3       Q.   Did you, in fact, face trial for these

          4  charges?

          5       A.   Yes. The trial was scheduled for one date and

          6  then it was postponed. In the meantime the

          7  international community through my relatives and

          8  especially my wife, learned about my case. They

          9  realised what was happening and what was being done to

         10  us, and Amnesty International was informed and Mr. Paul

         11  Miller came to one of the scheduled hearings and after

         12  that it was postponed, I believe, because of his

         13  presence. Then again it was scheduled on several

         14  occasions, the hearings, but outside the protocol at

         15  the time, it was postponed and finally it was partially

         16  carried out with the exception of the closing statement

         17  of my Defence counsel and the pronouncement of

         18  judgement, it was never completed, at least I am not

         19  aware of that.

         20       Q.   And were you then subsequently released?

         21       A.   Yes. We were exchanged, as it was called, on

         22  14th August 1992 in Nemetin.

         23       Q.   Now, sometime later in August of 1992, did

         24  you meet with a gentleman by the name of Dr. Clyde Snow?

         25       A.   I did.

Page 995

          1       Q.   And at this meeting -- was this a meeting in

          2  Belgrade?

          3       A.   Not in Belgrade. After my release or

          4  exchange.

          5       Q.   I am sorry, I meant Zagreb. Yes. In Zagreb.

          6       A.   Yes, yes, in Zagreb.

          7       Q.   And at that meeting did you provide him with

          8  certain information similar to that which you have

          9  provided to the court today, in relation to the route

         10  that the truck that you were on took at the Ovcara

         11  farm?

         12       A.   I gave him all the facts that I have given

         13  you now in greater or lesser detail. Anyway, I told him

         14  whatever he asked me.

         15            MR. NIEMANN:  No further questions, your

         16  Honour.

         17            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you. Mr. Fila, it is too

         18  late.

         19            MR. FILA:  Whatever you say. I only have three

         20  questions. Ten minutes.

         21            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes.

         22                 Cross-examined by MR. FILA

         23            MR. FILA:  Please, will you tell us what kind

         24  of uniforms you saw, from the hospital to Ovcara and

         25  from then on?

Page 996

          1       A.   I saw various uniforms, if we can call them

          2  that.

          3       Q.   What colours?

          4       A.   That too is a good question, but the answer

          5  is different. A uniform means that people should be

          6  equally dressed, but in this case, people wore

          7  different clothing. There were all types of uniforms

          8  from camouflage to classical, grey, olive green, and

          9  then there were those who were not completely clothed

         10  in uniform. They had a mixture of regular clothing and

         11  uniforms. Then there were cockades and other insignia.

         12  Olive green and inadequate uniforms and mixtures, all

         13  kinds of things. All kinds of combinations.

         14       Q.   You said that Vladimir Dukic was beaten --

         15  you call him Dado, a nickname. Never mind. Where was he

         16  in Ovcara?

         17       A.   He was on the opposite side to the entrance.

         18  Not that close to me, about 10 metres away from me, but

         19  at that point in time I could see him from that

         20  position.

         21       Q.   Do you know who beat him? Was he lying? Was

         22  he standing when he had these crutches?

         23       A.   He could not stand up. He was heavily

         24  wounded. He was lying most of the time but he was

         25  sitting too next to the hangar door and he had crutches

Page 997

          1  with him. He had crutches right next to him that were

          2  used to beat him up..

          3       Q.   You do not know who beat him?

          4       A.   The army that guarded us, if that is what we

          5  can call it, and all the others who took part in this

          6  terror.

          7       Q.   At the moment they took you out, you said it

          8  was dark. Did you perhaps notice how many buses there

          9  were?

         10       A.   I did not notice a single bus.

         11       Q.   And when you were taken away, what buses were

         12  there? Civilian, military, and what colour, if you

         13  know?

         14       A.   What do you mean, when we were driven off?

         15       Q.   I mean from the hospital into the military

         16  barracks and all that.

         17       A.   From the hospital, did I not look at the

         18  registration plates. No, I did not look at the

         19  registration plates at that point. It did not seem to

         20  matter. I do not know.

         21       Q.   And what colour were they? Were they civilian

         22  or military buses?

         23       A.   I think they were civilian buses.

         24       Q.   What colour?

         25       A.   Lighter colour. I do not know about the

Page 998

          1  colour.

          2       Q.   Do you know at all how many buses there were

          3  in front of Ovcara altogether? You said that you were

          4  on the third bus. Were there any more buses?

          5       A.   Since we were joined by an additional two or

          6  three buses, I cannot be sure, but most probably there

          7  were six buses.

          8       Q.   And as you were getting in, I mean, did you

          9  go out and then the buses arrived or were the buses

         10  there when you came out?

         11       A.   One bus was emptied out after the other. That

         12  is to say one was emptied out and then the other one

         13  came one after the other.

         14       Q.   Can you say what time it was when you arrived

         15  in Ovcara, approximately?

         16       A.   It was the afternoon. I do not know. Perhaps

         17  around 2 o'clock.

         18       Q.   You mean 1400 hours?

         19       A.   Yes, 1400 hours. Something like that. But

         20  approximately.

         21            MR. FILA:  Thank you. No further questions.

         22            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you. Would you like to

         23  re-examine?

         24            MR. NIEMANN:  No, your Honour.

         25            JUDGE CASSESE:  Well, thank you. No objection

Page 999

          1  to the witness being released, therefore? No. Good.

          2  I imagine that tomorrow we will hear five witnesses, or

          3  some of them?

          4            MR. NIEMANN:  Yes, your Honour, the five

          5  witnesses are ready for tomorrow.

          6            JUDGE CASSESE:  Good, and do you think

          7  tomorrow we could receive also from you the list of

          8  witnesses to be heard next week?

          9            MR. WILLIAMSON:  Your Honour, that is what

         10  I was about to address. We are still in the process of

         11  finalising travel arrangements, so that is the reason

         12  that we have not provided it today, but we should have

         13  it first thing in the morning.

         14            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you. Good. So we take

         15  a recess until tomorrow morning at 9.15.

         16            (5.30 pm)

         17         (Hearing adjourned until tomorrow at 9.15)

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