1. 1 DAY 9 Monday, 9th February 1998

    2 (9.15 am)

    3 (closed session)

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  1. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

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    4 (In open session)

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: And you will call witness...

    6 MR. NIEMANN: Irina Kacic.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    8 I would like to thank the legal officers of

    9 the Registry for kindly helping us; I wonder whether

    10 you feel that we should now have the appearances again,

    11 or can we do it without that? Not necessary. All right.

    12 So we move on.

    13 While we are waiting for the witness, may

    14 I take this opportunity to ask the Prosecution whether

    15 the Witness C has dropped out?

    16 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour.

    17 (The witness entered court)

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    19 Good morning, Ms. Kacic. I would like to ask

    20 you to make the solemn declaration.

    21 IRINA KACIC (sworn)

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be seated.

    23 A. Thank you.

    24 Examined by MR. NIEMANN.

    25 Q. Is your full name Irina Kacic?


  2. 1 A. It is.

    2 Q. And where were you born?

    3 A. In Moslavena in Slavonia.

    4 Q. And that is in the Republic of Croatia, is

    5 that right?

    6 A. It is.

    7 Q. And what is your date of birth?

    8 A. 21st December 1951.

    9 Q. Where did you do most of your schooling?

    10 A. In Vukovar.

    11 Q. And prior to 1991 where did you live during

    12 your adult life?

    13 A. In Vukovar.

    14 Q. Is your nationality Croatian?

    15 A. It is.

    16 Q. And what is your religion?

    17 A. I am Catholic.

    18 Q. Prior to 1991 were you married?

    19 A. I was.

    20 Q. When were you married? What year?

    21 A. In 1973.

    22 Q. And who did you marry?

    23 A. Petar, Petar Kacic.

    24 Q. And as a result of that marriage did you have

    25 any children?

  3. 1 A. I did.

    2 Q. And how many children did you have?

    3 A. Three.

    4 Q. And what were the sexes of the children?

    5 A. A son and two daughters.

    6 Q. During the siege of Vukovar in 1991, where

    7 were you staying?

    8 A. First we were in the basement in our house,

    9 and after that in a shelter.

    10 Q. How long did you stay in the basement of your

    11 house?

    12 A. Until 15th September.

    13 Q. And why did you leave the basement of your

    14 house?

    15 A. Because our flat was hit during the heaviest

    16 raid at the time.

    17 Q. And where did you move to?

    18 A. We moved to a public nuclear shelter in the

    19 centre of town.

    20 Q. And how long did you stay in the public

    21 nuclear shelter?

    22 A. Until Vukovar fell, that is 19th November.

    23 Q. And on 19th November, what did you do?

    24 A. We left the shelter and headed towards the

    25 hospital.

  4. 1 (12.30 pm)

    2 Q. Why did you go to the hospital?

    3 A. Because the army was in the town.

    4 Q. And what did you expect to happen at the

    5 hospital?

    6 A. We were expecting that that would be the

    7 safest way to leave town.

    8 Q. And who did you go to the hospital with?

    9 A. I went with my children and the other people

    10 from the shelter.

    11 Q. And when you say your children, do you mean

    12 your three children?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. What about your husband?

    15 A. My husband was killed on 2nd October.

    16 Q. That is of 1991?

    17 A. Yes. Yes.

    18 Q. And how was he killed?

    19 A. He was killed in battle. He was a commander

    20 in Vukovar.

    21 Q. And when you went to the hospital, where did

    22 you go? What part of the hospital did you go to?

    23 A. We had to enter the building and we climbed

    24 to the first floor, though it was all damaged.

    25 Q. And was this on the day of the 19th of

  5. 1 November 1991?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. At about what time did you get there on that

    4 day?

    5 A. Around midday. Maybe in the early afternoon.

    6 Q. And after you arrived there what happened?

    7 A. When the army arrived at the building in the

    8 yard the order was issued that all the civilians had to

    9 leave the hospital.

    10 Q. And was it said where they had to go, if they

    11 left the hospital?

    12 A. To Velepromet, yes.

    13 Q. Now, did you go to Velepromet on that day?

    14 A. No. I stayed in the hospital with the

    15 children.

    16 Q. And why did you stay?

    17 A. Because Dr. Bosanac sent a message to say that

    18 we could stay.

    19 Q. Now, did anything else happen on that day

    20 that you can recollect now? That is the 19th.

    21 A. Nothing in particular. We had to go

    22 downstairs where the wounded were, and we were expected

    23 to stay there and wait to see what would happen next.

    24 Q. And what happened next?

    25 A. When we got there it was already night, and

  6. 1 then gradually people in uniform came in and called out

    2 the names of our men, Croats, mainly soldiers. They

    3 banged on the door. It was dark. We could not see

    4 exactly who it was, but anyway, they were calling out

    5 these people by name, because they thought that they

    6 were hiding in the hospital.

    7 Q. Now, these people that were in uniform, were

    8 they on the Serb side or the Croatian side?

    9 A. On the Serb side.

    10 Q. And did you know -- you said they were in

    11 uniform. What uniforms were they wearing?

    12 A. Mostly uniforms of the Yugoslav army, the

    13 grey uniform.

    14 Q. Were there other uniforms other than uniforms

    15 of the Yugoslav army?

    16 A. They also had some of their own camouflage

    17 uniforms, some of the soldiers.

    18 Q. And when people were called out, do you know

    19 what happened to them?

    20 A. No, I did not see, but I think that they did

    21 not find any of those whose names they called.

    22 Q. Now, did this occur during the evening,

    23 during the night-time?

    24 A. Yes, during the night.

    25 Q. And this is the night of 19th?

  7. 1 A. Yes. Yes. The night between 19th and 20th.

    2 Q. Now, what happened on the next day, the

    3 20th of November?

    4 A. The next day in the morning we were given

    5 orders to abandon the hospital, or rather to go out,

    6 and we headed towards the exit.

    7 Q. Now, who gave you those orders?

    8 A. I do not know exactly who gave the orders,

    9 but in any event, that was the message that we received

    10 in our room, and people suddenly started moving towards

    11 the exit.

    12 Q. And when you say, "we moved towards the

    13 exit", was it you and your family, your three children,

    14 as well as the other people in the hospital?

    15 A. Yes. Other people as well. Myself and the

    16 children and other people of course, those who were

    17 mobile, not the wounded.

    18 Q. And where did you move to with your children?

    19 A. I headed towards the exit with the children

    20 and then we saw that something was happening there,

    21 that they were separating the men from the women, and

    22 when I got to the door I saw Mr. Sljivancanin. We stood

    23 in front of him. He just pointed that I and the

    24 daughters had to go to one side, and that my son had to

    25 go to another.

  8. 1 Q. How did you know it was Major Sljivancanin?

    2 A. At that moment I did not know, but I later

    3 learned his name.

    4 Q. And what happened when your son was separated

    5 from you and your two daughters?

    6 A. I just managed to address myself to

    7 Sljivancanin. I said that he was a child, and that he

    8 should not be separated, and he said that he would

    9 check everything. I just managed to give him his

    10 documents and take from him his bag and we were

    11 separated.

    12 Q. And when you say, "give him his documents and

    13 take from him his bag", you are talking about your son,

    14 are you?

    15 A. Yes, yes. Yes. My son.

    16 Q. What happened after your son -- after this

    17 was -- after Sljivancanin said that he would check it?

    18 A. Nothing happened. They did not check

    19 anything.

    20 Q. Where did you go? Where did you and your two

    21 daughters go?

    22 A. I and my two daughters went to the right

    23 where I was told to go, and then we waited to be sent

    24 somewhere. We had to wait. They said we should form

    25 groups, one group that wanted to go to Croatia, another

  9. 1 group that wanted to stay in the hospital, and a third

    2 group that wanted to go to any third countries. We

    3 chose Croatia.

    4 Q. Could you see what was happening to your son

    5 at this point in time?

    6 A. Very briefly. We just saw that they were

    7 standing against the wall and they were probably being

    8 searched to see whether they had any objects. This was

    9 very briefly. After that we did not see them because

    10 they went towards the exit to the other side.

    11 Q. And was your view obstructed then, once he

    12 went to the other side, the exit on the other side?

    13 A. No, no, we could not see.

    14 Q. So you could not see him after that.

    15 A. No. Did I not see him after that.

    16 Q. And what then happened to you? What was the

    17 next thing that happened to you?

    18 A. We waited for several more hours in this

    19 small group in the hospital compound, and then buses

    20 came to fetch us.

    21 Q. And where were you taken by the buses?

    22 A. The buses drove us in the direction of

    23 Negoslavci, from Vukovar to Negoslavci. That direction.

    24 Q. And what happened? Where did you end up

    25 ultimately?

  10. 1 A. At the end we arrived in Sremska Mitrovica.

    2 We spent the night there, and then the second day we

    3 went to Croatia through Bosnia.

    4 Q. Now, after you left the hospital in these

    5 buses, did you see your son again?

    6 A. No.

    7 Q. And did you make enquiries about where your

    8 son was after you got back to Croatia?

    9 A. Yes, immediately. As soon as we got to

    10 Croatia we asked where the people who had been taken

    11 away from the hospital were.

    12 Q. And did you -- were you able to find anything

    13 out about his whereabouts?

    14 A. No.

    15 Q. What was your son's name?

    16 A. Igor.

    17 Q. And what was his date of birth?

    18 A. 23rd August 1975.

    19 Q. So at the time he was 16, was he?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. How tall was he?

    22 A. He was tall, about 1 metre 90.

    23 Q. Now, on the last day that you saw him there

    24 at the hospital, can you give us a description of how

    25 he was dressed?

  11. 1 A. Yes, I can. He had jeans on, a jacket which

    2 was then called a college jacket, an American

    3 wind breaker. He had a T-shirt underneath. That is all.

    4 Q. What about his shoes? What sort of shoes did

    5 he have on?

    6 A. Tennis shoes. White tennis shoes.

    7 Q. And did he have any other items in his

    8 possession that you knew of?

    9 A. He had bits and pieces, like all children do.

    10 He had a little teddy. It was not a teddy, it was

    11 something like a mouse, actually, a brown mouse, and

    12 that is what we found on him, and he had another small

    13 dolphin that he had made by himself in wood and he

    14 always held it in his pocket, thinking it would bring

    15 him luck.

    16 MR. NIEMANN: Now, I would like you to look at

    17 the photograph that I am now going to show you, and

    18 might this be placed on the ELMO, please? There is one

    19 copy for the Defence.

    20 Now, just looking at the photograph that is

    21 now on the screen beside you --

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Do you recognise that photograph?

    24 A. I do. That is my son.

    25 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, I tender that, your

  12. 1 Honours, and might it be given the next exhibit number

    2 in order?

    3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 69.

    4 MR. NIEMANN: Ms. Kacic, would you now please

    5 look for me at the next photograph that I show you, and

    6 it is copied for the Defence. Perhaps that could be

    7 placed on the overhead screen too, please.

    8 Ms. Kacic, I am wondering if you would look

    9 at the photograph on the machine there, actually look

    10 at the machine itself, and if you could pick up that

    11 little pointer that is there on the witness table, do

    12 you see that brown pointer? That is right. Now, on the

    13 machine, if you could look at that photograph and if

    14 you point to the things that you recognise, can you

    15 tell us what you recognise, please, in that photograph?

    16 A. Yes. This is his key ring that we bought in

    17 Senj. This is another key ring. This is a nail cutter.

    18 These are little leather strings on which he wore

    19 a bullet, and this is his silver chain, and I do not

    20 know about the other objects. (Indicated).

    21 Q. And do you recognise these as items that

    22 belonged to your son?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. And when did you first see these items as

    25 depicted on this photograph?

  13. 1 A. When we went for identification purposes in

    2 Zagreb.

    3 Q. And were you able to then make that

    4 identification in Zagreb?

    5 A. Yes. Yes we, were.

    6 MR. NIEMANN: I tender that photograph, your

    7 Honours.

    8 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 70.

    9 MR. NIEMANN: Ms. Kacic, I am now going to ask

    10 you to just look at a very short piece of video, and

    11 I might ask the technicians to hold the video in place

    12 when it is played. I will just ask you if you are able,

    13 to identify anything -- any of the things that are

    14 depicted on this video. You do not need to point to

    15 them, Ms. Kacic, because they will be on your

    16 television screen, and if you could just tell us when

    17 you see it so if that could now just be played and once

    18 we get to the scene that you identify we will then hold

    19 the screen for a moment. Can we do that?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 (Video played)

    22 This is the soft little mouse that he had,

    23 and this is the dolphin that he made in wood.

    24 Q. Okay. Perhaps we could just go back to the

    25 little mouse to start with just to start over again,

  14. 1 just the mouse, and would you just hold on the

    2 mouse? Thank you. Was that a little soft toy that

    3 belonged to him?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you. Yes. Thank you.

    6 I have no further questions, your Honours.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Fila?

    8 MR. FILA: Your Honour, except for my

    9 condolences before this -- for the tragic loss of this

    10 witness, I have no questions.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I assume there is

    12 no objection to the witness being released.

    13 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honours.

    14 MR. FILA: No, your Honours.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Ms. Kacic, the court is most

    16 grateful to you for coming to The Hague to give

    17 evidence in court. You may now be released.

    18 A. Thank you.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: May I propose that we will

    20 now stand in recess until 2.30?

    21 MR NIEMANN: If your Honour pleases.

    22 (1.00 pm)

    23 (Luncheon adjournment)



  15. 1 (2.30 pm)

    2 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I just thought

    3 that I would indicate at the moment what our position

    4 is regarding witnesses. We have two witnesses available

    5 for this afternoon and tomorrow we anticipate calling

    6 three witnesses, and then on Friday there is one

    7 witness, sorry, on Wednesday, so today -- two more

    8 today, three on Tuesday, and one on Wednesday and I can

    9 give your Honours the names of those but I think you

    10 probably have the list already.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, so today we would hear

    12 witness number two and three.

    13 MR. NIEMANN: Yes. It is two and three on the

    14 list, and four... no, that is wrong. I have not --

    15 I can give you the names, your Honour, which is

    16 a better -- it is the present witness in the court,

    17 Ljubas, than Radocaj, than Schou, Witness A, and then

    18 Brletic, and then Kypr. And that concludes the evidence

    19 for this week, your Honour.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    21 MR. NIEMANN: This witness will be taken by

    22 Mr. Waespi.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. First of all

    24 I would ask the witness to stand up and to make the

    25 solemn declaration.

  16. 1 ANICA LJUBAS (sworn)

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be seated.

    3 First of all I understand there is a problem with

    4 the -- yes. Usual technical problem. There is some

    5 noise. I gather that we would need a few minutes,

    6 probably fifteen-twenty minutes to remedy this, to cure

    7 this problem and I wonder whether the interpreters may

    8 go on? I mean, is it really disturbing? Is it really

    9 impossible for you to work with the --

    10 THE INTERPRETER: It is very disturbing.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: So therefore we will have to

    12 take a recess of ten minutes and -- it has stopped. Oh,

    13 wonderful. So, all right. Wonderful, so you may

    14 proceed.

    15 Examined by MR. WAESPI

    16 Q. Thank you, your Honours.

    17 Ms. Ljubas, could you please state to the

    18 court your full name?

    19 A. My name is Anica Ljubas.

    20 Q. And what is the place and date of your birth?

    21 A. 2nd October 1948, Tomislavgrad.

    22 Q. And Tomislavgrad -- and that is in which

    23 republic?

    24 A. In Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    25 Q. Could you tell us your nationality and your

  17. 1 ethnic background, please?

    2 A. I am a Croat.

    3 Q. Do you have a family?

    4 A. I do. Three daughters and five grandchildren,

    5 and I had a son.

    6 Q. Can you give us the name of your son and when

    7 he was born?

    8 A. My son's name was Hrvoje Ljubas. He was born

    9 on 26th January 1971.

    10 Q. What is your profession?

    11 A. Now I am a housewife.

    12 Q. Where did you live in summer 1991?

    13 A. In the village of Sotin, near Vukovar.

    14 Q. How close to Vukovar is Sotin?

    15 A. 10 kilometres away.

    16 Q. What was the ethnic composition of the

    17 village of Sotin?

    18 A. The majority population was Croat.

    19 Q. Now, turning to the events in summer and fall

    20 1991, on August 24th 1991, did you hear on the radio

    21 that Vukovar was attacked?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. And what was the effect of this news? Did

    24 young men from Sotin go to Vukovar to join the defence

    25 of the town?

  18. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Was your son going as well?

    3 A. No.

    4 Q. What was the reason that your son did not

    5 join?

    6 A. Because his friend had gone, and he stayed on

    7 in the village to help these people in Vukovar.

    8 Q. Can you tell us the name of his friend who

    9 went instead of him to Vukovar?

    10 A. Drazen Luketic.

    11 Q. What happened to this person in Vukovar?

    12 A. He was killed on 24th when Dom Technike in

    13 Borovo was attacked.

    14 Q. Was there a funeral held in commemoration of

    15 Drazen Luketic in Sotin?

    16 A. Yes. On 26th. On 26th August 1991.

    17 Q. Do you remember when this funeral took place,

    18 when in the day of this 26th August 1991?

    19 A. I remember very well. The funeral was

    20 supposed to be at 4 pm, and at five minutes after five

    21 aircraft bombed the funeral and the entire village.

    22 Q. Did you personally see any impacts of those

    23 attacks by the planes?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Can you tell us what you saw?

  19. 1 A. I saw parts of concrete strewn about, broken

    2 glass. On the left-hand side there was a store. It was

    3 destroyed then. Trees were uprooted, two women were

    4 wounded.

    5 Q. What was your impression? Were these planes

    6 in any way associated with the JNA?

    7 A. Those were JNA aeroplanes. Those of the

    8 Yugoslav army.

    9 Q. For how long did this attack, this air

    10 bombing last?

    11 A. There was one sortie and then they bombed us

    12 and then they came back again and after that I did not

    13 see them.

    14 Q. Do you have an idea why the JNA attacked your

    15 village? Was there any provocation from the side of the

    16 people of Sotin, towards the JNA?

    17 A. No.

    18 Q. Was there any warning given by the JNA to the

    19 people in Sotin before they attacked the village?

    20 A. No.

    21 Q. Was there any defence in the village?

    22 A. No.

    23 Q. What happened then, after the bombing you

    24 just described? Where did you sleep that night?

    25 A. We were staying at our neighbour's basement.

  20. 1 Q. How was the night? Was it quiet or were there

    2 further attacks?

    3 A. Afterwards it was quiet. There were not any

    4 further attacks that evening.

    5 Q. What happened the next day, August 27th? Did

    6 you again see presence of the JNA?

    7 A. The next day we only went through the village

    8 to see what had happened, where we were, whether

    9 someone was killed, but the entire day this following

    10 day was a quiet one.

    11 Q. Did you see that day, this one or the

    12 following, any tanks who had circumvented your village?

    13 A. The next day we saw tanks. I personally saw

    14 them -- 60, 80 tanks, I counted once.

    15 Q. Now, what happened in the course of the

    16 following night? Was there a time when you decided to

    17 leave?

    18 A. The next night we were informed by our

    19 neighbours and those who were guarding us, women,

    20 children, and the entire village, that they could not

    21 take care of us any longer, that we had to get ready

    22 and get out of the village because it was getting

    23 dangerous. The army was already there, so we could not

    24 stay on any longer, we had to go.

    25 Q. Did most of the people in Sotin decide to

  21. 1 leave that night?

    2 A. Yes. The entire village was evacuated that

    3 night at 3 o'clock. The night between 28th and 29th.

    4 Q. You said that the majority of the people in

    5 the village of Sotin were of Croatian nationality, so

    6 there were also Serbs living in that village. Can you

    7 tell us what the reaction of those Serb people was? Did

    8 they join you in leaving the village that night?

    9 A. As far as I could see it was night-time. Some

    10 had left, others had not. We did not know that, because

    11 in the neighbouring village we saw that there were

    12 Serbs also who got out together with us that night, who

    13 were in the same group.

    14 Q. Can you tell us exactly why you left the

    15 village, your home village?

    16 A. We left it because we were afraid. We saw

    17 what was happening, that the army was there. They were

    18 bombing us, and we were frightened and we did not dare

    19 stay any longer.

    20 Q. When was it the last time you saw your son?

    21 A. 28th August 1991.

    22 Q. Can you tell us a little bit more? Where did

    23 you see him? In a car? What was your position at that

    24 time?

    25 A. I was also in a car, in a column. We joined

  22. 1 up with them at Ilaca on the highway towards Zagreb and

    2 I found him there and I asked him to come with me to

    3 Zagreb and he said, "mummy, no. I am going to Vukovar".

    4 And that is when we parted.

    5 MR. WAESPI: I would like to show you now

    6 a picture. There are samples, also, for the Defence and

    7 your Honours.

    8 Ms. Ljubas, can you tell us, what is that

    9 person on the picture?

    10 A. My son. He was only 20.

    11 Q. Have you seen him ever again?

    12 A. No.

    13 Q. I would like to tender that as the next

    14 Prosecution exhibit. That is probably number 71, if

    15 I am correct.

    16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that is 71.

    17 MR. WAESPI: Thank you. Ms. Ljubas, can you

    18 tell us where your convoy went to after you had left

    19 Sotin that night?

    20 A. It headed towards Zagreb and some people came

    21 back because they thought that these times would pass

    22 by and that we could stay on in the village. We still

    23 had no idea what would happen to us.

    24 Q. Did you arrive at the village of Opatovac at

    25 a certain time in the next days?

  23. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Did you again see JNA soldiers forces

    3 arriving at that place?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. And what was the reaction from your side? Did

    6 you leave again this village?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. And where did you go to afterwards, after

    9 Opatovac?

    10 A. We went towards Sotin, along the Danube

    11 because we did not dare show up anywhere. We went

    12 through the forest all night until we reached Sotin

    13 because we knew that the army was in the village.

    14 Q. Did you go back to your home?

    15 A. No.

    16 Q. Where did you stay? Outside Sotin?

    17 A. In the forest down there at Orerada.

    18 Q. For how long did you stay there?

    19 A. Three days and three nights.

    20 Q. Was there a time afterwards that you crossed

    21 the Danube and went on to the other side?

    22 A. Yes. A man took us to the other side of the

    23 Danube on a boat.

    24 Q. Was there somebody who told you to surrender

    25 to the JNA?

  24. 1 A. Yes. The man who took us by boat. He said

    2 that we should surrender and that we should not go to

    3 the forest on our own because the forest was full of

    4 soldiers.

    5 Q. Did you surrender in fact?

    6 A. Yes, we did.

    7 Q. And can you tell us briefly how that went

    8 along?

    9 A. When they brought us in front of a building

    10 there was some concrete and there was also something

    11 green. There were a lot of people in uniform and some

    12 in civilian clothes and we did not know who was who,

    13 but we had suspected who that was, and they were

    14 teasing us a lot, and who brought us should take us

    15 back, and I started crying and I said that I had four

    16 children and I said that if they wanted to they could

    17 kill me right there and then and I said, "I hope you

    18 will be fair and let my children go", but there was

    19 a lot of quarrelling going on, they were getting us off

    20 into a big vehicle where the army came, two soldiers

    21 came, and they put us into this big vehicle and they

    22 took us to Bac for questioning.

    23 Q. After being questioned, were you returned to

    24 Backa Palanka at a certain point. Is that correct?

    25 A. After questioning they put us up in

  25. 1 a village, some village out there and we stayed there

    2 until 21st or 22nd, I am not too sure what date it was,

    3 and then the next day, the day after that, we were

    4 wondering how long we would stay there on our own. No

    5 one was coming to see us after that, so we thought that

    6 we would go back to Bac to ask what would happen to us

    7 and that is exactly what happened.

    8 We went to Bac one morning and we asked how

    9 long we would be staying there and a man showed up who

    10 recognised my husband. Actually, my husband recognised

    11 him, and said, "what are you doing there?", and he

    12 said, "I do not know what we are doing here. We are

    13 here", and he invited us to his office. He offered us

    14 coffee and all that, and we asked, "what is going to

    15 happen to us now? What about us?", and he said, "as far

    16 as I am concerned you are free", and we said, "we do

    17 not dare go out because if we do not have any kind of

    18 certificate somebody will catch us again", and he said,

    19 "you can go", and he said, "where do you want to

    20 go?". We said, "we will go to Belgrade". We did not

    21 dare mention that we wanted to go to Zagreb. So we

    22 went to Bac, Backa Palanka, Pajo, Novi Sad, Sremska

    23 Mitrovica, Sid, Bijeljina, Doboj, so we reached Mostar.

    24 Q. Did you reach Zagreb at a certain point in

    25 time?

  26. 1 A. We reached Zagreb on 16th November 1991.

    2 MR. WAESPI: Thank you. I have no further

    3 questions.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila?

    5 MR. FILA: Thank you. No questions.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    7 I assume there is no objection to the witness

    8 being released. No objection.

    9 Ms. Ljubas, I would like to express to you

    10 the gratitude of this court for coming to The Hague to

    11 give evidence in court. Thank you so much. You may be

    12 released.

    13 (The witness withdrew)

    14 MR. NIEMANN: I call Duka Radocaj.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Niemann, I think you said

    16 before that this afternoon you would call only

    17 Ms. Ljubas and Ms. Radocaj?

    18 MR. NIEMANN: Duka Radocaj.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Only two witnesses. We were

    20 wondering whether you could also call a third witness,

    21 because we have plenty of time.

    22 MR. NIEMANN: I do not think he is ready, your

    23 Honour. Mr. Williamson is going to take -- Mr. Williamson

    24 is going to take that witness but I do not think we

    25 will be ready, your Honours. Whatever happens, we are

  27. 1 going to be short today and short tomorrow and short on

    2 Wednesday, your Honour. It has been moving much faster

    3 than we anticipated.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Williamson?

    5 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, just very

    6 briefly, Witness A, who would be the next witness to

    7 come, is ill today. He is suffering from the 'flu which

    8 unfortunately I think he caught from me, but anyway he

    9 is not here today.

    10 (The witness entered court)

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Yes, and so you

    12 cannot call the witness -- who on my list is number 6, on

    13 the the confidential list which was

    14 distributed to us on -- I think on Friday, last Friday.

    15 I do not know whether --

    16 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour, that witness is

    17 not ready to be called.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: I see. Thank you.

    19 I would like to ask the witness to make the

    20 solemn declaration.

    21 DUKA RADOCAJ (sworn)

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be seated.

    23 Mr. Niemann?

    24 Examined by MR. NIEMANN

    25 Q. Is your full name Duka Radocaj?

  28. 1 A. Duka Radocaj.

    2 Q. And Mr. Radocaj, what is your date of birth?

    3 A. 12th October 1952.

    4 Q. Mr. Radocaj, on 4th February 1996 did Mr. Kevin

    5 Curtis from the International Criminal Tribunal visit

    6 you and obtain from you a statement of your evidence?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. And was that statement taken down in the

    9 English language but translated to you in the Croatian

    10 language?

    11 A. It was.

    12 Q. And after it was translated to you were you

    13 asked to sign at the bottom of each page of that

    14 statement?

    15 A. Yes, I was.

    16 MR. NIEMANN: I now ask you to look at the

    17 document that is shown to you, and might it be given

    18 the next exhibit number in order, please?

    19 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 72.

    20 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Radocaj, can you see your

    21 signature at the bottom of each page of that document?

    22 A. I can.

    23 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you. I tender that, your

    24 Honours.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

  29. 1 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Radocaj, where were you born?

    2 A. I was born in Lovas.

    3 Q. And up until 1991, where did you live for the

    4 most part of your life?

    5 A. In my place of birth.

    6 Q. And that is in Lovas?

    7 A. Lovas, yes.

    8 Q. Now, during the hostilities in 1991 was Lovas

    9 affected by the war at that time?

    10 A. Yes, it was.

    11 Q. Around the end of August and early September

    12 of that year, where were you -- were you still living

    13 in Lovas at that time?

    14 A. I was.

    15 Q. And did you observe that tensions were rising

    16 considerably in and around Lovas?

    17 A. I did, I did.

    18 Q. And what did you observe?

    19 A. Well, there was a lot of military people,

    20 vehicles, in the surroundings, movement was not allowed

    21 for certain periods of time, one was not allowed to go

    22 to, or travel to Vukovar.

    23 Q. And you mentioned military vehicles. Military

    24 vehicles of what army?

    25 A. Yes.

  30. 1 Q. What was the army that the vehicles belonged

    2 to?

    3 A. The JNA.

    4 Q. And you also mentioned the town of Sotin.

    5 What was the position in that town, which is near

    6 Lovas, I understand.

    7 A. The inhabitants of Sotin, somewhere in August

    8 were evacuated. It may have been the beginning of

    9 September, but they were evacuated and some of them

    10 came to Lovas.

    11 Q. Now, around about 22nd and 23rd of September

    12 1991, were there further refugees passing through that

    13 came to the village of Lovas from another town in the

    14 area?

    15 A. Yes. On 22nd, quite a number of people,

    16 a large number of people from Tovarnik came to Lovas,

    17 but there were people from other places as well, but

    18 especially from Tovarnik.

    19 Q. And what had happened in Tovarnik to require,

    20 to have those people come to Lovas?

    21 A. On that day the JNA attacked Tovarnik.

    22 MR. NIEMANN: Now, just to assist their

    23 Honours in locating these towns, might the witness be

    24 shown Exhibit P4, which I understand is a yellow map

    25 like that. (Handed).

  31. 1 (3.00 pm)

    2 Thank you. Could that map be placed on the

    3 overhead projector? Mr. Radocaj, I would like you to

    4 look at the map that is in front of you on the

    5 projector there and to pick up the small wooden pointer

    6 on the desk in front of you and I wonder if you would

    7 help us by pointing to some of the towns that you

    8 mention in your evidence.

    9 Firstly, can you tell us -- point to us the

    10 village of Lovas? Can you find that there?

    11 A. Here it is. (Indicated).

    12 Q. Yes. And perhaps just so everyone can be

    13 directly orientated, can you just point to the city of

    14 Vukovar?

    15 A. Vukovar is here. (Indicated).

    16 Q. And Ilok?

    17 A. Ilok is here. (Indicated).

    18 Q. Okay. And one of the towns that you

    19 mentioned, Sotin?

    20 A. Here it is. Sotin. (Indicated).

    21 Q. And that is -- perhaps we could close in

    22 a bit on the -- can we project in a bit on that? Thank

    23 you.

    24 And another village that I believe you will

    25 mention, Mohovo. Mohovo. Thank you.

  32. 1 A. It is here. (Indicated).

    2 Q. And Tovarnik, that you were just referring

    3 to.

    4 A. This is Tovarnik. (Indicated).

    5 Q. I think that will do for the moment. Thank

    6 you very much.

    7 Now, was there a very large increase in the

    8 population of Lovas after the attack by the JNA on

    9 Tovarnik?

    10 A. At that point in time, actually, on that day

    11 or the following few days, in my view the population

    12 doubled in relation to the normal situation.

    13 Q. Now, on the 10th October 1991, did you hear

    14 certain news which was likely to affect Lovas?

    15 A. Exactly on the 10th of October. You are

    16 interested in that day only. On that day we heard news

    17 that some kind of an attack was under preparation

    18 against Lovas.

    19 Q. And how did you come to hear this news?

    20 A. We heard of it because a local person from

    21 Tovarnik who was arrested allegedly fled from the

    22 military unit that was pursuing him, and then he

    23 brought this news from Tovarnik, or rather he alerted

    24 us across the radio, by means of the radio.

    25 Q. And what did you do when you heard this news

  33. 1 of the imminent attack on Lovas?

    2 A. At that moment, since there were no defences

    3 or anything, people gathered and discussed the issue,

    4 and shortly after that the shelling started.

    5 Q. From what direction was the shelling coming

    6 into Lovas?

    7 A. The shelling was coming from the direction of

    8 Tovarnik.

    9 Q. Now, what did you do when this happened?

    10 A. I was there in the local community offices,

    11 and since there was no one I headed back home.

    12 Q. And what did you do when you went home? What

    13 did you discover?

    14 A. When I got home there were my wife's parents

    15 and her brother, his wife, and two children staying

    16 with me, so I talked to them and I wanted to go and see

    17 my mother, who was living a little way from my house.

    18 Q. And so did you then proceed to do that?

    19 A. I started off and part of the way, maybe some

    20 100 metres or even less, from the opposite direction,

    21 or rather from the direction that I was heading for,

    22 the firing started, that is in the direction of

    23 Opatovac. Therefore -- my street is called Mlinska, and

    24 the shooting started from the mlin, or the mill, and

    25 that mill is on the road to Opatovac.

  34. 1 Q. And did you then return to your home as

    2 a result of that?

    3 A. After that I had to go back home because

    4 I felt it was not safe to proceed, so I went back home.

    5 Q. Did you then subsequently decide that you

    6 would try and escape from Lovas?

    7 A. My wife's late father said to me and my

    8 brother-in-law that we should flee.

    9 Q. And to where were you going to flee?

    10 A. We were going to the village of Mohovo.

    11 Q. And did you do that?

    12 A. Yes, I did.

    13 Q. Now, when you arrived at Mohovo, what

    14 happened then?

    15 A. When I arrived in Mohovo from the direction

    16 of my village there was daily shooting, which means

    17 from the actual village of Lovas. Then I looked for my

    18 brother-in-law, because we had got lost through the

    19 fields of corn on the way to Mohovo.

    20 Q. Now, once you had been in Mohovo, did you

    21 decide that it would be better for you to return to

    22 your house in Lovas?

    23 A. I stayed briefly in Mohovo, and I went to

    24 Ilok at one point to look for my brother-in-law who was

    25 in Ilok, because I heard that he was there, and I went

  35. 1 to look for him because I had decided to go back to see

    2 how the people who were in my house were faring.

    3 Q. And did you then do that?

    4 A. Yes, I did.

    5 Q. And how did you get back to your house in

    6 Lovas?

    7 A. I went back through the fields again in which

    8 mostly maize had been planted so I thought that would

    9 be the best way to get back.

    10 Q. Now, when you got back there, what did you

    11 discover?

    12 A. Well, when I got back I did not find my wife

    13 and the other people at home, but my neighbour told me

    14 that my father-in-law had been killed but apparently my

    15 wife was in the village. However, that same day

    16 unfortunately she had been taken to Sid because they

    17 were mistreated in Lovas, and they tried to save

    18 themselves by staying with relatives in Dobanovci where

    19 my father-in-law had a sister.

    20 Q. And Dobanovci is in Serbia, is it?

    21 A. Yes. That is correct, near Zemun.

    22 Q. Now, what was the next thing that happened?

    23 What did you do then when you discovered your wife had

    24 gone?

    25 A. That was the 13th, that was the date. On that

  36. 1 day I spent the night outside, near the house, hiding

    2 in the maize fields which was also next to the house,

    3 and during the night I felt very cold, so I climbed

    4 into my own attic because at the time I did not know

    5 that my wife had left that same day, so I spent the

    6 night there, and in the morning, the next morning on

    7 14th, in the direction of this village that I had

    8 mentioned, Opatovac, a convoy of military vehicles went

    9 by, tanks, trucks, jeeps, and all those other things

    10 whose names I do not know.

    11 Q. Were these military vehicles of the JNA?

    12 A. To judge by the markings and the colour,

    13 rather, yes, the JNA because they were just one street

    14 away and I was watching from the attic and I saw that

    15 they were olive green/grey in colour.

    16 Q. Now, did you subsequently decide to go to the

    17 co-operative building in Lovas and to, in effect, turn

    18 yourself in?

    19 A. No. A soldier picked me up because in the

    20 meantime my mother had reached my house and a soldier

    21 saw me there talking to my mother, and he picked us up

    22 and took me to a house in the neighbourhood.

    23 Q. What happened then?

    24 A. He took me to a local person and asked this

    25 local man whether he knew me, and then they took me to

  37. 1 the local co-operative where I had to register and

    2 I was ordered to come tomorrow at 7 o'clock, to come to

    3 work in that co-operative, the next day.

    4 Q. And did you do that the next day?

    5 A. I was forced to do that.

    6 Q. And what sort of work did you perform?

    7 A. All kinds of jobs, from feeding livestock,

    8 harvesting the corn, and similar jobs, depending on

    9 what the person in charge told me to do. Of course,

    10 these jobs and all other local people were done by us

    11 under the watchful eye of the soldiers, or armed people

    12 or some local people under arms. There were some local

    13 people as well.

    14 Q. And did you continue this until the

    15 17th October?

    16 A. Exactly. Until 17th October. That is what

    17 I did until then, and on that day orders were issued to

    18 the effect that no one was allowed to go home, that

    19 there would be some kind of a meeting within the

    20 compound of the co-operative.

    21 Q. And was there a meeting?

    22 A. The meeting unfortunately was not held. It

    23 was not held because the gentleman who were supposed to

    24 hold the meeting, his name is Ljuban Devetak, he did

    25 not show up that day for the meeting. However, a day or

  38. 1 two later I heard that he was in Ilok, that is what his

    2 driver told me, that he was escorting the convoy

    3 because on 17th October a convoy of citizens of Ilok

    4 had left, heading towards Croatia, Zagreb.

    5 Q. Now, when you went to this meeting where

    6 Mr. Devetak did not turn up or did not arrive, were you

    7 addressed by a person in military uniform?

    8 A. There were several persons. One was called

    9 "Captain", and there were several soldiers. They put

    10 weapons in front of us and I saw a submachinegun among

    11 these weapons and there were also automatic rifles

    12 there, the ones they had.

    13 Q. Did this person called "Captain" tell you why

    14 you had been locked up? Did this person called

    15 "Captain" say to you why you had been locked up?

    16 A. That captain said to us that allegedly some

    17 of the locals were shooting at his soldiers, and if

    18 there would be no shooting that night, at us, that then

    19 he would know that it was us who did the shooting, and

    20 that we would be in trouble then and then he added,

    21 "even if that does not happen you are going to be in

    22 trouble, definitely".

    23 Q. And so what happened? What did they do?

    24 A. That night on 17th, we had to sit on wooden

    25 benches all night with our hands on our backs like

  39. 1 this. (Indicated). Very often people were not even

    2 allowed to move, because one of these people were

    3 walking around, and if anyone would move they would hit

    4 him with their hands and with other objects.

    5 Q. Now, what did they do to you the next

    6 morning?

    7 A. I did not even underline that. That night

    8 they did not even allow people to go to the toilet or

    9 anything, and in the morning at one point, it seemed --

    10 well, they had given us a few packs of cigarettes, so

    11 we lit a cigarette or two, those people who were

    12 smokers, and after that Devetak came with a group of

    13 bodyguards or soldiers or paramilitary soldiers,

    14 whatever they may be, and they started beating up all

    15 the people.

    16 Actually, before that, they had separated

    17 a group that was supposed to be some kind of work

    18 group. They were in charge of the electricity, but

    19 there was not any electricity, and also the waterworks

    20 were down.

    21 Q. Now, when you say they started beating you,

    22 what did they beat you with?

    23 A. With everything that was available. That is

    24 to say, starting from rifles, that is to say rifle

    25 butts, various bars, then batons, their hands, some

  40. 1 kind of wooden sticks, et cetera, and they would even

    2 put their knives into people's thighs.

    3 Q. Now, a little later did they bring in a group

    4 of four or five people who -- villagers -- who they

    5 said had failed to attend a meeting?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. And what did they do to them?

    8 A. They put those people in front of a wall, in

    9 front of us -- but I should have said before this, that

    10 a group of some 20 people were put aside compared to

    11 the place where we had spent the night and they brought

    12 these people in front of this wall of this workshop

    13 that was within this co-operative, and they were

    14 beating them in particular because allegedly they did

    15 not respond to the invitation to come to this meeting,

    16 so these people were especially mistreated. I do not

    17 know how to put this. These people were really

    18 tortured. They stuck knives into them, they beat them

    19 up, this wall was all bloody.

    20 Q. A little later on were you then picked out

    21 and told that you would be taken to a vineyard to pick

    22 grapes?

    23 A. Yes. Yes. That came afterwards. They said

    24 that we would go to pick grapes, and they lined us up

    25 as we were supposed to leave the village, we were

  41. 1 supposed to go to the farm that was at the outskirts of

    2 the village.

    3 Q. Did they say anything to you about land

    4 mines?

    5 A. No one had told us a thing about land mines.

    6 Only on the way they said that if it was mined, that we

    7 had laid those mines and that we would lose our lives.

    8 They said something to that effect.

    9 Q. Now, where did you go?

    10 A. Unfortunately we were forced into this

    11 minefield, and in my opinion we only had dear God to

    12 thank for the fact that a military vehicle came by and

    13 in it was some kind of officer, JNA officer. It was

    14 a jeep or something of the sort, some kind of military

    15 vehicle, but unfortunately too late, because several

    16 people were already killed in this minefield, and they

    17 were shot in the back from automatic rifles.

    18 Q. Did anyone actually fall upon mines when you

    19 were in the field?

    20 A. We were spread out as far as my arms can

    21 stretch. I mean, that far. And a boy was killed by

    22 a mine, allegedly, but later people who were standing

    23 closer to this boy told me that one of the soldiers had

    24 pushed him onto that mine.

    25 Q. Did they tell you to do anything with your

  42. 1 feet when you were in the minefield?

    2 A. Yes. They said that we should move our legs

    3 like when you are cutting the grass or clover, that we

    4 should make it that kind of movement with our feet as

    5 we were moving along.

    6 Q. Now, you say this JNA jeep arrived with an

    7 officer. What happened? What did they do when they

    8 arrived?

    9 A. I do not know to what extent you can imagine

    10 all of this, because we were all confused, frightened.

    11 They were quarreling between themselves and this

    12 officer ordered these people to be taken out. I mean,

    13 these people who were still alive or those who were

    14 wounded, to get them out of the field. Actually, I was

    15 the first one, and other people also de-mined the

    16 field, according to the orders issued by a soldier who

    17 was acting upon orders of that officer who was in the

    18 vehicle. We had to de-mine -- we had to take these

    19 mines away by hand.

    20 Q. And how were you told to do that? Did they

    21 tell you how to do that?

    22 A. This officer ordered this soldier and since

    23 I was the first one there who had to de-mine, the

    24 soldier gave me instructions how I was supposed to do

    25 it.

  43. 1 Q. And what did he tell you to do?

    2 A. Since I am no soldier, no expert in this

    3 field, I mean, I had only served in the previous army,

    4 he told me that, to come to some kind of stick that was

    5 there in the minefield in that field, and to pull it

    6 towards myself, and to get this little wire off this

    7 stick, and then we went to another one and then we cut

    8 this wire because in the meantime somebody had given me

    9 that nail cutter which I used to cut that wire.

    10 Q. Now, where were the soldiers standing when

    11 you were cutting through the wire of the mine?

    12 A. The soldier was standing up on the road,

    13 above this field.

    14 Q. Now, the soldiers that had taken you out from

    15 Lovas to the minefield, were they regular JNA? Did you

    16 recognise them as regular JNA soldiers, or were they

    17 some other force?

    18 A. I did not. I did not know any of these

    19 people, and now whether it was regular army or... how

    20 do you put this... whether they were reservists, I do

    21 not know, but they all had uniforms on. Those who were

    22 forcing us into the field, we are talking about that,

    23 right?

    24 (3.30 pm)

    25 Q. Did they have any insignia on them to

  44. 1 indicate that they were JNA?

    2 A. They had those five-pointed stars, red

    3 five-pointed stars embroidered, some of them.

    4 Q. And the people that arrived in the jeep, were

    5 they dressed similarly, in a similar way?

    6 A. The soldier was wearing an olive green/grey

    7 uniform whereas the previous ones had that light green

    8 camouflage uniform on.

    9 Q. Now, once you had finished de-mining and you

    10 had de-mined a mine yourself, what happened then? What

    11 was the next thing that happened?

    12 A. Then one of the soldiers who had stayed on

    13 with us ordered me to go and have a look at the people

    14 who remained lying dead in the field, to go and check

    15 whether any one of them was still alive.

    16 Q. And did you do that?

    17 A. I did, and I went from one to another, and

    18 I did that.

    19 Q. Now, what happened then?

    20 A. After that the few of us who were left were

    21 taken back to the yard where we had set out for this

    22 minefield in the first place. These soldiers escorted

    23 us to that yard, and when we came, the other ones who

    24 had massacred those people before we went out to the

    25 minefields reappeared and I remember one of them even

  45. 1 by name, his name was Petronije and he had an axe, and

    2 he wanted to kill all the rest of us who had remained.

    3 Q. But that did not happen. You were taken --

    4 you ultimately went back to the co-operative building.

    5 Is that right?

    6 A. Yes, because then there was a man who gave

    7 them orders that they were not allowed to do anything

    8 to us, because, on the other side was a kitchen and

    9 a dining room for these people who were employed at the

    10 co-operative and they were quarreling out there and

    11 this man hid us there in the workshop and he did not

    12 allow these men to come up to us any more.

    13 Q. Now, I think after that you continued to do

    14 forced labour from the co-operative building until 22nd

    15 December 1991. What happened on 22nd December 1991?

    16 A. On that 22nd of December in the morning we

    17 were going to work, how should I put this, there was

    18 a policeman there, a military policeman, and one of

    19 these volunteers of Devetak was there and they took us

    20 to the local police there, that they had set up. That

    21 is where I was searched as soon as I arrived.

    22 Of course, I forgot to say this, they had

    23 tied my hands in the back. When they arrested me they

    24 brought me there, they searched my pockets, and one of

    25 these people there who was some kind of commander of

  46. 1 this police, he started beating me up, and he kicked me

    2 with his boot up here in the face, and then he kicked

    3 me between the legs and in various other ways, and this

    4 military policeman was there too who had brought me

    5 there with those two other guys.

    6 After that I was taken to the basement where

    7 they beat me all day. They tied my hands up this way,

    8 they were stretched out, they beat me in different

    9 ways, they put salt in my mouth, they beat me with

    10 different objects, with their batons, with their hands,

    11 they kicked me with their feet, they cut my teeth. At

    12 one point, as it was getting dark, that is to say I was

    13 there from the morning until late in the afternoon, it

    14 was already getting dark, they wanted to use a drilling

    15 machine in order to drill a hole through my leg but

    16 they did not have the right kind of power to do that,

    17 because something was wrong with their power generator,

    18 so they did not drill through my foot. They only

    19 drilled through my shoe, and the drilling machine had

    20 only touched my flesh very little, and of course they

    21 continued to beat me up until sometime during the

    22 night, and then this Milosevic, I think, that was the

    23 name of this commander, Milosevic, he gave orders to

    24 have my mother brought in, and that my mother would

    25 have to watch me being cut up, and when they went to

  47. 1 pick her up these policemen said that she would have

    2 to -- that -- or rather that they told her that I would

    3 have to watch her, you know, I mean the other way

    4 around, that I would be watching my mother being cut up

    5 and they told my mother that she would be watching me

    6 being cut up.

    7 Q. Did they do anything to your teeth with

    8 pliers?

    9 A. Yes. I said a moment ago, they tried to cut

    10 my teeth. They cut about five teeth with pliers.

    11 Q. How did they do that?

    12 A. Those are pliers used to cut the teeth of

    13 pigs. These are small pliers which have special

    14 cutters.

    15 Q. Now, what happened then?

    16 A. I do not know where I should begin now. From

    17 this cutting of my teeth or this situation with my

    18 mother?

    19 Q. Yes, sorry, did they bring your mother to the

    20 police station?

    21 A. They did. They brought my mother and they

    22 tied her up, also with handcuffs.

    23 Q. Now, what did they do then?

    24 A. After a while -- there was no electricity, as

    25 I said. Something had gone wrong with the generator.

  48. 1 I heard some crying or moans, I do not know how to put

    2 it, because they were bringing another man to this same

    3 cellar where I was throughout that day, and this man

    4 was Manojlo Filic. After that they brought in two other

    5 men, Mato Madarevic, and Vjekoslav Balic. They

    6 continued to beat us all that night until the morning.

    7 There were four men there and my mother, so

    8 they beat us until the morning. It had already dawned.

    9 They took away my watch so I did not know what time it

    10 was, but it was daylight already, one could see

    11 a little through the windows of the cellar. Then they

    12 let my mother go, and they continued to beat us that

    13 day, and that was already 23rd December.

    14 Q. Now, did you then -- did your cousin's

    15 husband, a Serb, come to the police station?

    16 A. During the night my cousin's husband was

    17 apprehended because he did not agree with them

    18 torturing me, because he had heard I was being

    19 tortured, and so he disagreed and then they locked him

    20 up too, and then one of his friends who were in the

    21 army went to find his brother in Tovarnik as we knew

    22 each other through football connections, and so he came

    23 to see me and said that he would save me.

    24 Q. And were you subsequently saved as a result

    25 of that?

  49. 1 A. Not straight away, but on 26th, because after

    2 these events of 22nd and 23rd, we were released in the

    3 night of the 23rd. I stayed home. I could not move. I

    4 could not eat, I could not do anything, so this man

    5 came on 26th, and he drove me to Bijeljina.

    6 Q. And from Bijeljina, did you then manage to

    7 get to Sarajevo?

    8 A. From Bijeljina I managed to reach Sarajevo.

    9 The road that was covered by my wife as well, as I had

    10 heard, this man who saved me gave me a telephone

    11 number, the number of the people where my wife was

    12 staying, and these people, since I arrived at night in

    13 Sarajevo, in the morning they immediately took me to

    14 see a doctor.

    15 Q. And then ultimately did you manage to get to

    16 Zagreb?

    17 A. The next day I arrived in Zagreb, and I was

    18 treated at the clinical centre in Rebro, Zagreb, and as

    19 a consequence of this beating my eardrum had been

    20 pierced from the blows, so I was also operated on in

    21 March 1992.

    22 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions, your

    23 Honour.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Fila?

    25 MR. FILA: Thank you, your Honour. I have no

  50. 1 questions for this witness.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I assume there is

    3 no objection to the witness being released. Thank you.

    4 Thank you so much for coming here to testify. You may

    5 be released. Thank you.

    6 (The witness withdrew)

    7 So I understand that -- tomorrow we will

    8 hear three witnesses, and one on Wednesday. Is that

    9 correct?

    10 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour. The witness on

    11 Wednesday has to be heard on Wednesday because we have

    12 to book Czech interpreters. That has been --

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, but may I just

    14 take a few minutes of your time? I wonder whether you

    15 intend to call other witnesses in March, because we

    16 have here a list which was distributed on the

    17 29th January, and there are about -- more than six

    18 witnesses listed for March.

    19 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: I understand all of them

    21 relate to exhumations.

    22 MR. NIEMANN: The exhumation part of the case

    23 your Honour, yes. There may be one witness on

    24 international armed conflict, but other than that, they

    25 all relate to the exhumation, and the investigator,

  51. 1 which will be the concluding witness.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. That means that

    3 probably in March you may also be able to make your

    4 closing statement, in that week of March. We have five

    5 working days in March.

    6 MR. NIEMANN: No, we will not make our closing

    7 statement until the end of the case, your Honour, not

    8 until the end of the Defence case.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, yes. You are right.

    10 Sorry, I was wrong.

    11 MR. NIEMANN: But we can close our case.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Close your case, that is

    13 what I meant. Thank you for correcting me. So you may

    14 close your case in, therefore, in that week of March.

    15 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour. That is our

    16 intention, your Honour.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: So therefore we can start

    18 with -- I wonder whether Mr. Fila will be ready to start

    19 in April. In April I think we have eight working days.

    20 MR. FILA: I will be ready, your Honour.

    21 I would like to say that I would finish in April, but

    22 just in case something might happen, so I would like to

    23 have some days in reserve, but judging by the number of

    24 witnesses I should be able to complete my case.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. All right. If

  52. 1 there are no other questions, we may now stand in

    2 recess until tomorrow morning at 9.15.

    3 (4.50 pm)

    4 (Hearing adjourned until 9.15 tomorrow morning)