Page 1782
1 Monday, 20 April 1998 2 (8.30 a.m.).
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Could the Registrar please
4 call the case number?
5 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-95-13a-T
6 Prosecutor versus Slavko Dokmanovic.
7 MR. NIEMANN: My name is Niemann. I appear
8 with my colleagues Mr. Williamson, Mr. Waespi,
9 Ms. Sutherland and Mr. Vos.
10 MR. FILA: Your Honours, My name is Toma
11 Fila. I am here with Ms. Lopovic and Mr. Petrovic. We
12 appear as Defence counsel for Dokmanovic.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Dokmanovic, can you hear
14 me? We will now start with the Prosecution evidence on
15 the issue of nationality. We plan to have a break at
16 around 10 o'clock, then resume at 10.20 and then we
17 should finish by 11.30, if it is possible, because at
18 12 o'clock we have a status conference in another case:
19 do you think you can manage?
20 MR. NIEMANN: Yes.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: We will go through the
22 questions which we should discuss with the Defence
23 counsel here in court, but I would first of all ask the
24 Prosecutor to call witnesses on the question of
25 nationality.
Page 1783
1 MR. WILLIAMSON: Good morning, your Honours.
2 We will not be calling any witnesses this morning.
3 I think everything has been agreed to in the form of
4 stipulations between ourselves and the Defence. We
5 will, however, be tendering some documentary evidence
6 in support of some issues, related to nationality. We
7 will also submit a number of other documents just to
8 complete our case. I can proceed -- there are a number
9 of things that we would present. At this time, the
10 first exhibit which will be 112, we have 13
11 photographic albums which depict an overview of the
12 exhumation and autopsies process on 12 of the
13 representative persons from the grave. We would
14 introduce these albums at this time and I will
15 introduce each one with a separate number identifying
16 the individual. The first one, which will be
17 exhibit 112, is the overview of the Ovcara grave mass
18 exhumation. Exhibit 113 is the album related to Josip
19 Kozul. Exhibit 114 is the album related to Josip
20 Balog. Exhibit 115 is the album related to Pavao
21 Jurisic. Exhibit 116 is the album related to Mihajlo
22 Zera. Exhibit 117 is the album related to Martin
23 Jakubovski. Exhibit 118 is the album related to Sinisa
24 Glavasevic. Exhibit 119 is the album related to
25 Hrvoje Ljubas. Exhibit 120 is the album related to
Page 1784
1 Sinisa Veber. Exhibit 121 is the album related to
2 Dragutin Bosanac. Exhibit 122 is the album related to
3 Igor Kacic. Exhibit 123 is the album related to
4 Tomislav Baumgartner. Exhibit 124 is the album related
5 to Zeljko Jurisic. At this time, I would tender those
6 items.
7 We have copies of these which have previously
8 been provided to the court and the Defence in
9 conjunction with our pre-trial submissions of evidence.
10 In relation to these items, and the next two
11 items, the court had already ruled that these could be
12 admitted on 19 January in the pre-trial hearing. There
13 was some discussion on them at that time, but now we
14 are just merely formally tendering them.
15 The next item is the video compilation which
16 depicts the Ovcara exhumation which was shown in court
17 on 17 March 1998, in conjunction with the testimony of
18 Dr. Clyde Snow. This has already been viewed, but at
19 that time we did not actually tender it. We would do
20 so now. That would be Prosecutor's exhibit 125.
21 That is this item. Then the next item is a
22 copy of a 1:100,000 scale map of the entire Vukovar
23 region which I believe may have been referred to at
24 some point in testimony. We would tender this as
25 Prosecutor's exhibit 126. Again, all of these items
Page 1785
1 112 through to 124, are the albums, 125 and 126, have
2 previously been provided both to the Defence and to the
3 court.
4 The next item will be Prosecutor's Exhibit
5 127A and B. A is the audio recording of the statement
6 given by Mr. Dokmanovic on 27 June 1997, after his
7 arrest when he was en route from Cepin in Croatia to
8 The Hague and 127B is the transcript of that
9 statement. The audio tape is being obtained from the
10 evidence unit -- we do not yet have that in court this
11 morning. We will put that in the record as soon as we
12 receive it. At this time we can submit 127B, which is
13 the transcript of that, and again copies of this have
14 already been provided to the Defence, and to the court,
15 and I believe the audio tapes have actually already
16 been provided.
17 The next exhibit, your Honours, is
18 Prosecutor's evidence 128A and B -- 128A is three
19 videotapes of the statement given by Mr. Dokmanovic at
20 the Scheveningen prison on 26 and 27 November 1997 --
21 there is a misprint, sorry -- and this is 128A, the
22 transcript of that interview will be introduced as
23 Prosecutor's exhibit 128B.
24 The next item is Prosecutor's exhibit 129.
25 This is offered in support of the admissions obtained
Page 1786
1 relative to the exhumation and autopsies -- this is the
2 report of Dr. Yvonne Milewski as to the pathological
3 findings arising from the post-mortem examinations of
4 bodies recovered from the Ovcara grave site with
5 special emphasis on these 12 representative persons.
6 We have made copies of all these items here
7 and we have those here in court. We can provide those
8 perhaps at the conclusion of this process, just to
9 expedite things. The Defence has received, I believe,
10 all these items in advance, except for a couple of
11 things, but we will provide everything -- sufficient
12 copies for all of the judges and for the Registry and
13 for the Defence.
14 The next items -- and this is in support of
15 the admissions in relation to the nationality -- these
16 are the personal documents recovered from the bodies of
17 45 individuals exhumed from the Ovcara grave site --
18 this goes to nationality and identification of
19 individuals. I will go through with each of these
20 documents -- they will be given an individual number.
21 The documents were obtained from the bodies so there is
22 some odour associated with them -- these were documents
23 that had been in the grave for five years before the
24 exhumation, so as a result of the decomposition of the
25 bodies, the documents have also a smell. We have tried
Page 1787
1 to mitigate that as much as possible -- they were
2 already placed in plastic and we have additionally
3 placed them into zip lock closed bags, plastic bags as
4 well, but we will go through that as quickly as we
5 can. We have them in a box. If it is to your Honours'
6 pleasure, we can leave them in the box and submit it as
7 one item, or we can do them individually, but again
8 there will be some smell associated with doing that.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: You do not have to submit
10 them individually -- you can just give us the whole
11 box.
12 MR. WILLIAMSON: I will go through each one
13 by name and the exhibit number. We will submit it as a
14 box. We have photocopies of them which we can provide
15 to the Defence and the court so that it will not be
16 necessary to go into the originals in the courtroom.
17 Exhibit 130 would be documents which were taken from
18 the body of Mihaela Balas, which is a prescription and
19 doctor's note. Exhibit 131 is an SFRY identification
20 card for Josip Balog. Exhibit 132 is an SFRY
21 identification card for Ivan Plavsic. Exhibit 133 is
22 an SFRY identification card for Pavao Jurisic .
23 Exhibit 134 is an identification card for Stjepan
24 Sarik. Exhibit 135 is a medical document in the name
25 of Nedeljko Hlevnjak. Exhibit 136 is a medical
Page 1788
1 document in the name of Tihomir Traljic. Exhibit 137
2 is an identification card in the name of Ivan Herman.
3 Exhibit 138 is an SFRY identification card in the name
4 of Mihaljo Zera. Exhibit 139 is a Vukovar medical
5 centre identification card in the name of Mihaljo
6 Zera. Exhibit 140 is an identification card in the
7 name of Mufad Omerovic. Exhibit 141 is a prescription
8 in the name of Josip Rapustic. Exhibit 142 is an SFRY
9 identification in the name of Josip Zeljko.
10 Exhibit 143 is an SFRY identification card in
11 the name of Pero Simunic. Exhibit 144 is an
12 identification card from the Vukovar Prosecutor's
13 Office of Kresimir Kelava. Exhibit 145 is an
14 identification card for Tomislav Mihovic. Exhibit 146
15 is an identification card for Tomislav Bajnrauh.
16 Exhibit 147 is an identification card for Marko Lucic.
17 Exhibit 148 is an SFRY identification card for Tihomir
18 Tomasic. Exhibit 149 is an SFRY identification card
19 for Drago Jurendic. Exhibit 150 is an SFRY
20 identification for Ivica Horvat. Exhibit 151 is an
21 SFRY identification card for Petar Turk. Exhibit 156
22 is an SFRY identification card for Darko Tisljaric .
23 Sorry, 152. Exhibit 153 is an SFRY identification card
24 for Mihael Janic. Exhibit 154 is an SFRY
25 identification card for Vinko Andrijanic. Exhibit 155
Page 1789
1 is an identification card for Salvador Rimac. Exhibit
2 156 is an SFRY identification card for Mihael Janic.
3 Exhibit 157 is an identification card for Zdravko
4 Mikulic. Exhibit 158 is a medical document for Vedran
5 Galic. Exhibit 159 is an SFRY identification card for
6 Borislav Kostovic. Exhibit 160, personal documents in
7 the name of Dragutin Bosanac. Exhibit 161 is an SFRY
8 identification card for Dragan Granic. Exhibit 162 is
9 an SFRY identification card for Anton Virges. Exhibit
10 163 is an SFRY identification card for Josip Dragun.
11 Exhibit 164 is an SFRY identification card for Karlo
12 Rohacek. Exhibit 165 is an SFRY identification card
13 for Sasa Dudar. Exhibit 166 is an identification card
14 for Duka Baric. Exhibit 167 is an SFRY identification
15 card for Stanoja Cupic. Exhibit 168 is an
16 identification document for Igor Kacic. Exhibit 169 is
17 an SFRY identification card for Branislav Graf.
18 Exhibit 170 is an SFRY identification card for Borislav
19 Garvanovic. Exhibit 171 is an SFRY identification card
20 for Mikailo Vasic. Exhibit 172 is an identification
21 card for Tomislav Baumgartner. Exhibit 173 is a
22 medical document in the name of Dragutin Friscic.
23 Exhibit 174 is an SFRY identification card in the name
24 of Branimir Polovina and then exhibit 175 is a
25 prescription document in the name of Zeljko Jurisic.
Page 1790
1 We would offer all of these items in their entirety
2 exhibits 130 to 175, again in the box and we will
3 provide copies of the documents to both Defence and the
4 court.
5 The next items are copies of international
6 agreements which were entered into by the Croatian
7 Government in the period between June and December
8 1991, and these were obtained at the request of the
9 Trial Chamber. We will offer these in globo as exhibit
10 176.
11 Your Honours, I understand that there was a
12 correction which was made in relation to one of the
13 names which I just stated -- this was on exhibit 152,
14 the name appeared on my printout as Darko Tisljaric and
15 it should have been Nikola Pinter -- that was exhibit
16 152. I am sorry, your Honours, it is exhibit 153,
17 instead of Mihaljo Janjic it should have been Nikola
18 Pinter -- exhibit 152 was correct, it should have been
19 Darko Tisljaric.
20 The next items --
21 MR. FILA: I am sorry, but I did not get
22 this. I do not have it. Could I please get this,
23 because it is important?
24 JUDGE CASSESE: You mean the correction of
25 the name?
Page 1791
1 MR. FILA: No, the document -- I am referring
2 to the document, the agreement, yes, yes, the
3 agreement.
4 MR. WILLIAMSON: Absolutely. Again, it was
5 our intention to provide everything at the conclusion.
6 We can give you a copy. The next items are those
7 related to the ethnicity of seven persons upon which
8 the Prosecution and Defence could not come to agreement
9 as to ethnicity. We did enter into an admission in
10 relation to the other persons named in the indictment,
11 but there were seven persons upon which agreement could
12 not be reached. We have sought documentation from the
13 Croatian Government and the first item that we would
14 offer would be Prosecutor's exhibit 177, which is a
15 letter which came from the Croatian Office of Missing
16 Persons in relation to these seven individuals. Your
17 Honours, I am sorry, that does not seem to be in the
18 courtroom at the moment. We will retrieve that -- it
19 is 177A, which is the Croatian version of that and 177B
20 will be the English version of that letter.
21 178A is a blank form which shows the form for
22 questionnaires that survivors of missing persons filed
23 with the Croatian Office of Missing Persons. This is
24 178A. 178B is an English translation of this document,
25 so that, when referring to it, you may then be able to
Page 1792
1 tell what the questions are, which are filled out on
2 the completed forms, so this is 178A and B.
3 Exhibit 179 will be a form that was filled
4 out in relation to an individual, Duka Baric. This is
5 not one of the individuals that was at dispute in our
6 discussions between ourselves and the Defence.
7 However, there were three individuals who were found in
8 the grave who were not named in the indictment, so we
9 have also provided documentation in relation to these
10 three, as well as to the other seven which were in
11 dispute. So, this is exhibit 179, Duka Baric.
12 Exhibit 180 are documents in relation to
13 Vjekoslav Poljak -- again, who is one of the
14 individuals who was not named in indictment, but who
15 has been positively identified from the grave -- it is
16 exhibit 180. And the same applies to exhibit 181,
17 which is for Pero Simunic.
18 Exhibit 182 are documents related to Branko
19 Jovanovic. Exhibit 183 are documents in relation to
20 Goran Kitic. Exhibit 184 are documents in relation to
21 Tihomir Loncar. Exhibit 185 are documents in relation
22 to Polovina Branimir. Exhibit 186 are documents in
23 relation to Tihomir Savanovic and exhibit 187 are
24 documents in relation to Mikajilo Vasic. No document
25 was found in relation to Stanija Kupic, so nothing has
Page 1793
1 been provided in relation to him.
2 Exhibit 188 are census figures for Vukovar
3 municipality for the years 1971, 1981, and 1991, which
4 indicate figures for the entire municipality, and then
5 for 1991, the populations of the individual villages
6 within the municipality and there is a colour map which
7 is attached, which indicates the predominant ethnic
8 groups in each of the towns in the Vukovar
9 municipality, indicating where there are absolute
10 majorities or relative majorities in the population.
11 This would be exhibit 188. Finally, the last exhibit
12 189, which is a copy of the 1990 Croatian constitution.
13 In addition to these items, there are a
14 couple of other matters as well, that we would like to
15 address. We have made two requests to the
16 United Nations in New York for documents, which we are
17 still awaiting. If we can obtain agreement of the
18 Defence and if it is the pleasure of your Honours, we
19 would like to supplement this after we have closed our
20 case with these two small items that we have
21 requested. We have asked from the United Nations for
22 the main multi-lateral treaties and instruments of
23 succession deposited by Croatia and the notifications
24 by the depositor to the States, parties to the
25 treaties, on all of them which mention or acknowledge
Page 1794
1 8 October 1991 as the effective date of Croatian
2 independence. We were told the documents were with the
3 Austrian Government and we made enquires through them.
4 They indicated to us that everything had been forwarded
5 to the United Nations, so we have put in a request to
6 the UN and we have been told that we should get a
7 response some time this week, but rather than delay the
8 closing of our case, if it is agreeable to the Defence,
9 we would supplement it when that is obtained.
10 The other item that we have also requested
11 from the UN is an item that was referred to in
12 Mr. Mesic's testimony -- this was the ultimatum from
13 General Kadijevic to the Croatian authorities which
14 Mr. Mesic referred to as a declaration of war in which
15 he attached to his letter to Mr. Perez de Cuellar. As
16 soon as we obtain those, we will supplement it. At
17 this time we would like to show a small portion of
18 videotape, which has already been admitted as
19 Prosecutor's exhibit 75. This is an interview with
20 Slavko Dokmanovic which was done by Radio Television
21 Belgrade shortly after 20 November 1991. There was
22 some discussion about this during our pre-trial
23 submission of evidence and the court determined that
24 this could go in as it is, so at this time we would
25 like to show that to the court, and then we will tender
Page 1795
1 the evidence and that would conclude our case. If that
2 is ready, we can show that now. We will provide copies
3 of everything to the Defence in the interim so they
4 have an opportunity if there is any problem.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila?
6 MR. FILA: I absolutely agree with that, but
7 I just want to ask you one thing. Could we run the
8 entire tape that has been given to me, because the tape
9 that the Prosecutor gave me contains other interviews
10 made on the same date and, in the tape of the
11 Prosecution it says "former President of the
12 municipality of Vukovar" -- former President. If the
13 Prosecutor says they want to establish the truth, they
14 should play that tape, too -- that part of the tape,
15 too. It is their exhibit.
16 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honours, I think there
17 is some confusion as to tapes. What we provided to
18 Mr. Fila in pre-trial discovery process were all of the
19 interviews that we had with Mr. Dokmanovic over a long
20 period of time. These go all the way until 1996. What
21 we did in terms of this compilation that we have
22 submitted as Prosecutor's exhibit 75 was place only the
23 ones that were made at the time of the conclusion of
24 the battle of Vukovar and this was the only interview
25 from that period. All of the others occur at a later
Page 1796
1 time. If the Defence requests, we can certainly make
2 that available, but that is not on this tape.
3 MR. FILA: It is precisely from that period,
4 the 21st, the interview with the French man, and it
5 says "former President of the municipality" there; is
6 that right? Yes -- it is that period, not earlier, not
7 later -- that is the period in question --
8 November 1991, your exhibit, so if you want to be fair,
9 show both.
10 MR. WILLIAMSON: We will show this one at
11 this time and we will try to obtain the one that
12 Mr. Fila is discussing, we are happy to provide that to
13 the court as well. We would supplement that after the
14 fact. At this time, we are ready to proceed with the
15 one that was made immediately after the fall of
16 Vukovar.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Is it agreeable to you? In
18 any case, it will be shown -- not today.
19 MR. FILA: I agree with it, but I do not find
20 it agreeable.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: It is clear that the
22 Prosecutor has committed himself to show this tape, but not
23 today, because I understand it is not available now.
24 MR. WILLIAMSON: That is correct, your Honour
25 -- we can get it, yes.
Page 1797
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Can you get it?
2 MR. WILLIAMSON: We can try to get it this
3 morning. I think the reason it was not included, it
4 was a very short segment, it is not clear but we are
5 happy to provide it.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: We could have a break or
7 maybe a break at 9.30, and then maybe you can show that
8 tape.
9 MR. WILLIAMSON: Very well, that is fine. At
10 this time, we would request to show the portion that
11 I have referred to a moment ago. I believe this is at
12 the very beginning of this tape. All of this has
13 previously been shown to the court. We wanted to show
14 the last segment which is at the very end of the tape.
15 This tape is of some length. At this time perhaps we
16 can tender all of the items that I have discussed --
17 these are exhibits 125 through 189, and if there is any
18 of these that Mr. Fila would like to see at this time
19 that he has not seen previously, we can provide those.
20 MR. FILA: Your Honour, I would only like to
21 see when these international agreements were signed and
22 which ones are you referring to -- before 19 November?
23 That is what this trial is about -- 20 November -- or
24 are they dated later and also these forms are all from
25 1995 -- not before 1991, so I would like to have a look
Page 1798
1 at that, too, for those six or seven Serbs.
2 Please, your Honour, I wish to draw your
3 attention to -- either intentionally or unintentionally
4 there is a confusion between "ethnicity" and
5 "nationality" -- not all Serbs lived in Croatia or do
6 they live in Serbia now; not all Croats live in
7 Croatia. In Belgrade we have about 20,000 citizens who
8 are Croats -- they are Yugoslav citizens, but Croats by
9 ethnicity. These documents from 1992 show something
10 completely different. We wanted to show before 1991,
11 before they were killed in Ovcara -- of course, they
12 were not supposed to be killed and I already said that
13 -- they were ethnic Serbs -- they either were or not.
14 I am not talking about their nationality in terms of
15 the State whose citizens they were. That is the
16 question. That is what I would like to see.
17 MR. WILLIAMSON: These forms address that
18 specific issue, your Honour. It refers to their
19 citizenship, their nationality or ethnic origin, and
20 their religion -- all three, so --
21 MR. FILA: When are these forms from? What
22 is the date on these forms?
23 MR. WILLIAMSON: The documents, your Honours,
24 have different dates on them. It was when the family
25 members filled them out. Some of them are from right
Page 1799
1 after the battle, some of them are somewhat later, but,
2 your Honours, it would be our contention that the
3 ethnic origin of a person would not change from 1992 to
4 1996 -- their citizenship might very well change, and,
5 in fact, all of these persons list citizenship from
6 Croatia, but their ethnic origin or nationality, as it
7 was called in Yugoslavia, would remain the same.
8 I think it reflects that. I think if Mr. Fila sees
9 these it will clear it up. Perhaps it would be helpful
10 for him to look at these. I think this will address
11 his questions.
12 MR. FILA: Alright.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: The agreements -- we, too,
14 are keen to look at the agreements.
15 MR. WILLIAMSON: These are copies of the
16 agreements here. This was offered as Prosecutor's
17 exhibit 176.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: While you are distributing
19 or circulating the agreements and the other documents,
20 may I ask you a question about an issue which you have
21 just addressed -- the difference between "nationality"
22 or "ethnicity" and citizenship; was there any law on
23 citizenship in Croatia at the relevant time? Was there
24 any --
25 MR. WILLIAMSON: At the time, from the time
Page 1800
1 that Yugoslavia was created, all of the citizens of
2 Yugoslavia had citizenship both in Yugoslavia and in
3 the republic in which they lived, so all these persons,
4 it refers to their citizenship as being that from
5 Croatia. Nationality was not restricted to any Serb
6 republic -- I think this is what Mr. Fila was discussing
7 -- someone who had Serb nationality could live in
8 Serbia, Croatia or Bosnia, so, in effect, nationality
9 and ethnicity are one and the same. Citizenship was
10 something different and citizenship applied to the
11 republic in which they lived, but it made no indication
12 of their ethnic origin.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: If I understood you
14 correctly, therefore, somebody could be a citizen of
15 Croatia and of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia -- of
16 the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
17 MR. WILLIAMSON: Yes.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Dual citizenship.
19 MR. WILLIAMSON: At the time prior to the
20 break-up of the Socialist Federal Republic of
21 Yugoslavia, everyone had citizenship in the Republic
22 and as a Yugoslav citizen. After the break-up of
23 Yugoslavia, of the Socialist Federal Republic of
24 Yugoslavia, people now have only citizenship in the
25 independent nation in which they live, be it Croatia,
Page 1801
1 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, Bosnia-Herzegovina,
2 or Slovenia, Macedonia.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Did Croatia pass any law on
4 citizenship after the break-up --
5 MR. WILLIAMSON: It is contained in the
6 constitution of 1990 which we have offered as
7 Prosecutor's exhibit 189 and then there is an
8 additional document which is the law of citizenship of
9 Croatia of 1991. Just a moment, your Honour --
10 I believe after the break we can attempt to supplement
11 the record with that law as well in response to your
12 request.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Fila?
14 MR. FILA: The first expert that you will be
15 hearing tomorrow is professor of constitutional law
16 from our faculty of law. He is going to explain this
17 properly to you. All of us in the SFRY together had
18 citizenship of the SFRY and that was called external
19 citizenship. That is citizenship that was valid in the
20 outside world, so to speak. Within the SFRY we had
21 republics and these republics had internal citizenship
22 which was for internal use only. Every citizen of the
23 SFRY, you can see that in the law on attorneys, the law
24 on courts, et cetera, the citizen of any part of
25 Yugoslavia was allowed to practise law anywhere, for
Page 1802
1 example. In our red passports it said that we were
2 citizens of the SFRY, not Serbia, Croatia, Macedonia,
3 et cetera, but what I am objecting as far as these
4 documents are concerned -- please, I wish to draw your
5 attention to that regardless of whether you are going
6 to accept them as exhibits or not -- the forms that
7 have a later date than the date concerning this trial
8 are the forms that are being offered, and I asked the
9 Prosecutor to give me documents showing the ethnic
10 background of these persons -- not where they lived,
11 what republic they lived in -- for these people before
12 1991 and you have that in the lists that were provided
13 by the Croat States and you can also get it from church
14 documents. We Serbs were baptised in Serb Orthodox
15 churches. As you know today, it is our Easter, and
16 your Easter was a week ago. I have documents for these
17 seven persons from the church so that is the exhibit
18 that I asked the Prosecutor to provide -- that these
19 people were baptised as Croats before 1991, just as
20 I am going to show them that they were baptised as Serb
21 Orthodox when they were born, not bring you new
22 documents that will be produced by my State or their
23 State. That is relevant evidence.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: In any case, as for the
25 forms, let us wait for the breaks so we can look at the
Page 1803
1 various forms and we will resume discussion of this
2 matter.
3 MR. WILLIAMSON: These are the forms that
4 were referred to as Prosecutor's exhibits 178 through
5 187. At this time, I believe we are ready to proceed
6 with the video of the interview concerning
7 Mr. Dokmanovic. If it can be run at this time.
8 (Videotape played).
9 MR. WILLIAMSON: I am not receiving a
10 translation of this, your Honour. Perhaps if we could
11 re-roll it and start with the translation as well.
12 (Videotape played).
13 THE INTERPRETER: Today, Vukovar is the most
14 devastated city on earth and that is the question that
15 we are discussing with the mayor of Vukovar,
16 Slavko Dokmanovic. What are we supposed to do?
17 Answer: Unfortunately, it is true that
18 Vukovar is the most devastated city in the world -- the
19 city that was an example of cleanliness, of order, it
20 no longer exists. We are going to do our best to
21 rebuild the city and intensive work is being done on
22 that score in two directions. First of all, a civilian
23 government is going to be set up, today or perhaps
24 tomorrow, and the city is going to be rebuilt and
25 preparations are under way in a few directions. First
Page 1804
1 of all, it is necessary to restore the city, then we
2 are going to clear up the ruins and, according to the
3 project we have envisaged, we are going to build a new
4 city and I sincerely hope it is never going to be a
5 Ustashe town again, it will be a real Serb town where
6 all citizens will live freely. It has been a city of
7 refugees for months. Already in June, Serbs found
8 refuge here as they were flowing --
9 MR. WILLIAMSON: That is the tape. I think
10 that was the commentary by the reporter after the
11 conclusion of the interview. I would just ask if the
12 videotape can be rerun and I would ask for a
13 translation of the caption which appears under
14 Mr. Dokmanovic's name.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: May I ask you about the date
16 of this interview -- I cannot remember.
17 MR. WILLIAMSON: This was 21 or 22 November.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
19 MR. WILLIAMSON: It was actually shown on
20 22 November in Belgrade, so it is not clear if it
21 actually happened on that day or on the 22nd when the
22 interview was made. If this can be run and I will
23 indicate the point.
24 (Videotape played).
25 THE INTERPRETER: Slavko Dokmanovic President
Page 1805
1 of the municipality of Vukovar.
2 MR. WILLIAMSON: At this time, if we can take
3 the break we will try to resolve these other
4 outstanding matters. We should be able to conclude
5 that upon our return, if that is acceptable to your
6 Honours.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: How much time would you need
8 when we resume --
9 MR. WILLIAMSON: Just a very few moments. We
10 can play this videotape that the Defence has requested,
11 we can show -- we will supplement the record with this
12 letter from the Croatian authorities in relation to all
13 the individuals, which we have marked as Prosecutor's
14 exhibit 177A and B, and then I believe there may be
15 some discussion about some of our exhibits, but other
16 than that, this will conclude everything that we have.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: We could maybe break now and
18 resume at 10 o'clock -- is that fine?
19 MR. WILLIAMSON: I am not sure we even need
20 that much time.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: So that you can take a look
22 at the documents. We have 35 minutes. We will
23 resume at 10 o'clock.
24 (9.25 a.m.).
25 (A short break).
Page 1806
1 (10.00 a.m.).
2 JUDGE CASSESE: May I raise two issues?
3 First of all, I went through the documents collected in
4 exhibit 176 -- a group of agreements -- and I came
5 across a document, Joint Commission to Trace Missing
6 Persons and Mortal Remains. I have a small query,
7 namely, whether it is correct to say here on the
8 heading, the title 6 of this document; "Rules of
9 Procedure and Plan of Operations 16 December 1991
10 amended on 31 July 1991" -- is it correct?
11 MR. WILLIAMSON: I am not sure. I do not
12 have the document in front of me. Let me check very
13 quickly.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: It must be 1992.
15 MR. WILLIAMSON: I think it must be -- it is
16 a misprint.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: That was my first query.
18 Then we would like to ask both parties about the
19 special attire worn by Mr. Dokmanovic when he gave that
20 interview we saw this morning on tape on 21 or 22
21 November. We just saw the tape this morning. We noted
22 that he was wearing special attire -- he was not
23 wearing a suit, a dark suit or whatever -- whatever his
24 capacity, so we would like to ask both parties about
25 the nature of this sort of camouflage suit he was
Page 1807
1 wearing, and whether or not it was different from the
2 one he was wearing on the different occasion, on 20
3 November, when we saw him, whether this was the same
4 uniform.
5 MR. FILA: Your Honours, on the territory
6 where the operations were held, which you are going to
7 see whether it was an international conflict, an
8 internal conflict or whatever, there was no water and
9 no electricity -- people did not take baths. What
10 Mr. Dokmanovic was wearing both on 20 and 21, he was
11 wearing for two or three months, both before and after
12 the events, and that is the same thing I showed you on
13 the first day, with his alibi, and that is the same
14 thing the Prosecution showed to the witnesses, Cakalic
15 and Berghofer, as being his uniform on the photograph.
16 You have those in the Prosecution's evidence. It is a
17 hunting suit, in fact, -- a hunting uniform -- and when
18 I start bringing up my witnesses, I am going to show
19 you this as proof. Thank you, your Honours.
20 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, it is certainly
21 our position that this was a military outfit of some
22 type. We have heard testimony on this issue from one
23 of the witnesses who testified confidentially -- I do
24 not recall what his number was -- who had served in the
25 Serb paramilitary. He said everyone was doing a
Page 1808
1 mish-mash of uniforms and I think that the fact that he
2 elected to wear camouflage clothing shows very clearly
3 that he intended to appear as some type of military or
4 paramilitary role.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
6 MR. WILLIAMSON: May I proceed?
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Please.
8 MR. WILLIAMSON: At this time we are ready to
9 supplement the additional items that we discussed
10 earlier. We have now the letter which was returned
11 from the Government of the Republic of Croatia in
12 relation to the seven persons upon whom we requested
13 information, and I have a copy of it -- 177 -- exhibit
14 177A is the version in Croatian and 177B is the English
15 translation of that document. I have provided this to
16 Mr. Fila at the conclusion of the break.
17 At this time, also, we have obtained a copy
18 of the law on Croatian citizenship. I have an English
19 version of this -- I am not sure if I have a Croatian
20 version yet. We can supplement that later today. This
21 is the law on citizenship which was enacted on
22 26 June 1991. I understand that there were amendments
23 made to it in 1992 and in 1993, and I do not have
24 those, but I do have the original version of the law
25 which was enacted in June 1991 and we would enter that
Page 1809
1 now as Prosecution's exhibit 190.
2 At this time, also, we have the videotape
3 which Mr. Fila was requesting to be shown and we can
4 show that at this time. This appeared on French
5 television on channel TFI on 29 November, the film was
6 apparently made on 28 November 1991.
7 (Videotape played).
8 THE INTERPRETER:
9 "Why not? They have nothing to look for
10 here, no business to be here. They will answer to the
11 law. There are just Serbs returning, 2,500 people who,
12 despite everything, live in Vukovar."
13 MR. WILLIAMSON: Can you replay that?
14 MR. FILA: That is not the video in
15 question. Once again, we have the uniform that the
16 Prosecutor calls a uniform. Eight days after this
17 event, you will see he is wearing the same thing, the
18 same clothing that you call a paramilitary uniform.
19 But the particular tape that I asked for has a caption
20 underneath where it says: "Former President of the
21 municipality of Vukovar" and that was on the tape that
22 the Prosecutor provided, but they are not going to show
23 it because it does not suit their purposes. It says
24 "former" on the caption underneath. I will show you,
25 no problem.
Page 1810
1 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I resent the
2 allegation that we are not going to show it. We made a
3 good faith effort based on Mr. Fila's description in
4 court as to what tape he was talking about, and that is
5 what we showed. I clearly do not know which segment of
6 video he is talking about. If he can show it to us, we
7 will be happy to provide it to the court.
8 MR. FILA: The section is in Belgrade --
9 I have it. I received it from the Prosecutors and my
10 man will be bringing it here tomorrow, so I will show
11 it to you tomorrow -- just the caption which says:
12 "Former President of the municipality" -- that is the
13 point, not the contents.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. If we could run
15 the tape again.
16 MR. WILLIAMSON: If we can reshow this very
17 brief segment, and if translation can be made of the
18 caption which appears again under the picture of
19 Mr. Dokmanovic in this video.
20 (Videotape played).
21 THE INTERPRETER: It says "mayor of Vukovar"
22 in the caption:
23 "They have no business to be here and they
24 will answer to the law. For the moment, it is only the
25 Serbs who are coming back, 2,500 people who are living
Page 1811
1 in Vukovar, despite everything."
2 MR. WILLIAMSON: I believe that that was all
3 of the loose strings that we needed to tie up after the
4 hearing.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
6 MR. WILLIAMSON: At this time, we would
7 tender all of those exhibits 125 through 190.
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. There is no
9 objection from Mr. Fila, I understand, to the tendering
10 of those exhibits?
11 MR. FILA: Apart from the fact that I should
12 like to repeat that all the questionnaires for the
13 seven individuals were made up in 1994 onwards -- both
14 in Croatia and in Serbia. When you are born, you get a
15 birth certificate and, with that birth certificate, you
16 carry all your life and have it until you die. That is
17 the only proof of who is who and who is what and I ask
18 the Prosecution to show that type of evidence and not a
19 questionnaire of three, four or five years after the
20 events.
21 As far as interstate agreements go, the
22 remarks you made, I have nothing against all this being
23 adopted, but they are not interstate agreements. Thank
24 you very much, your Honours.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
Page 1812
1 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, in relation to
2 the birth certificates that Mr. Fila is referring to, in
3 the period during which all of this occurred, in which
4 most of these people went missing, Vukovar was totally
5 destroyed. Most of the documents that were in Vukovar
6 have gone missing -- hospital records -- other items
7 which would help in the identification of persons went
8 missing. The Croatian authorities made every attempt
9 to find these documents after the exhumation to assist
10 in identification, as did the Office of the
11 Prosecutor. They are gone -- some of them were
12 destroyed, some of them were apparently removed after
13 1991 in an effort to conceal the identity of persons.
14 So I am afraid this is the best information that we
15 have available and certainly, if we had birth
16 certificates for these people, we would be happy to
17 provide them.
18 MR. FILA: Your Honours, I shall try and find
19 what has disappeared through the Croats. Now, you have
20 given us a list, a census of the population of 1991,
21 and so on. This implies people, individuals -- a
22 consensus is made up of individuals. If you have these
23 population censuses, then you have these people alive,
24 you have their names and surnames, including the people
25 we are talking about and it could not have disappeared,
Page 1813
1 because the Prosecution has these names. So, when the
2 population stated what they were by virtue of their
3 nationality, nationality was one of the columns to fill
4 in on the form. If the Croat republic wants to give
5 you this, you will see in the population census you
6 will have them by name and nationality and religion, so
7 he can be a Serb, a Croat, a Yugoslav, a non defined --
8 he can declare himself in all these different ways, he
9 can be an Orthodox, a Catholic, nothing else. So that
10 is not correct.
11 MR. NIEMANN: If Mr. Fila can find them and
12 produce them to court, I am sure it will be of benefit
13 to all of us. Your Honours, we tender the last video
14 that was shown as exhibit 191.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
16 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, that is the
17 evidence for the Prosecution.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: I suggest that we now move
19 on to some housekeeping matters before we adjourn, and
20 I will now turn to Mr. Fila. First of all, a few
21 questions. We have received, and we are grateful to
22 you for submitting various documents, including the
23 draft order of witnesses. Am I correct in inferring
24 from your lists that you intend to call 16 witnesses in
25 April, and 27 in May?
Page 1814
1 MR. FILA: Your Honours, four witnesses were
2 for the video link, but in our discussions with the
3 Registrar, we came to realise that it would be better
4 to have both in May for a whole day, and in that sense
5 I informed the Registrar that it is, for practical
6 purposes, the better solution -- to bring all these
7 witnesses from Belgrade and to get them over in one
8 day, so that you have four less, in fact.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Four less in April. I am
10 happy that you accepted the suggestion of the
11 Registrar. We also were going to ask you to put
12 together all the witnesses to be heard through video
13 link, and hear them in May. Actually, we would like to
14 suggest 18 May, if this is convenient for the parties.
15 We will then have only 12 witnesses in April.
16 MR. FILA: Yes, that is right.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Could you call some other
18 witnesses you intended to call in May -- can you call
19 them now in April? Some of your witnesses to be called
20 in May, could they be called in April?
21 MR. FILA: Your Honours, I think that this
22 number is too great, because four of these witnesses
23 are expert witnesses, and there will be a lot of
24 questions from the Prosecution side, because I would
25 like to hear all the experts at the start, and that is
Page 1815
1 how I conduct my Defence cases in my own country, so
2 that everybody knows what we are talking about and then
3 we talk to the witnesses. The first expert that you
4 are going to hear after my opening statement has to do
5 with matters of the constitution, what constitutions
6 exist, what they are like and citizenship. The other
7 expert is on international conflicts and they are both
8 here.
9 The third and fourth witnesses are experts in
10 the realm of history -- Serbs up to the Second World
11 War and the Serbs from the Second World War onwards.
12 This will take a lot of time. I do not have many
13 questions to ask, but I am sure the Prosecution will.
14 As far as the witnesses are concerned, we can
15 shorten their time, of course, depending upon questions
16 from the Prosecution, but I do not think we will get
17 through even the four we have -- let us hope we will.
18 I have something else to ask you. For three
19 witnesses, I have asked safe conduct. I have not
20 received a reply from the Prosecution as to whether
21 they agree. (redacted)
22 (redacted). I would like to have
23 an okay from you, because without these assurances,
24 they will not be able to come.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I was about to
Page 1816
1 ask you a question about the witnesses who are asking
2 for safe conduct. (redacted),
3 you mentioned four witnesses -- (redacted)
4 (redacted),
5 (redacted). You
6 are asking for four safe conducts? Actually, it is five --
7 there is also (redacted). What about these
8 five names?
9 MR. FILA: The situation, your Honours, has
10 changed, and in our talks with the Prosecutor we
11 concluded that it would not be a good idea to have
12 (redacted) to come here and to ask for safe conduct
13 for him. I am sure the reasons are understandable.
14 The witness (redacted) does not ask for safe conduct,
15 because he lives on Croatian territory and there is no
16 problem there. (redacted)
17 (redacted). I am not putting
18 forward (redacted) at this point. I think he would be on
19 the video link if we should so decide. (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted) and this was an additional request
22 from me to you. I do not think there will be any
23 problem in allowing them safe conduct, because it does
24 not make the work of the court any more difficult.
25 (redacted)
Page 1817
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 JUDGE CASSESE: (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted). Sorry for my bad
7 pronunciation. I see that the response from the
8 Prosecutor was due by 22 April, namely, on Wednesday,
9 about the Defence motion for safe conduct. Am I
10 correct in saying this? This is according to my
11 calculation. You submitted a response concerning the
12 video link, but no response about the safe conduct. I
13 wonder whether you could state your position now so we
14 can clarify this matter, or whether you need two more
15 days.
16 MR. NIEMANN: I think we are almost in a
17 position -- we were going to comply according to the
18 time requirements, but I think our position -- we are a
19 little puzzled by one of the witnesses, because we
20 understood he wants safe conduct because he does not
21 have a passport -- we may be wrong about that, but that
22 seemed to be the position with one of the witnesses,
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 1818
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted). Just going on to the video
8 link, if your Honours wish to have the video link
9 because you consider it more economical, or efficient
10 or whatever, then I suppose I do not have much to say
11 about it. Our position is that we would prefer that
12 video links be limited to those circumstances where it
13 is simply not possible for any other way for the
14 evidence to be given; in other words, that it is not
15 possible for the witness to travel to The Hague. If
16 that is established and in those circumstances, we
17 raise no objection to that.
18 But the position of the Prosecution
19 certainly -- and it is a position we will state --
20 is; we much prefer the witness to come before the
21 Tribunal to testify before your Honours, with your
22 Honours' ability to observe demeanour and the control
23 of the witnesses is much greater and that is far
24 preferable to video link testimony. Our position, your
25 Honours, is that notwithstanding efficiency, that the
Page 1819
1 far better course is always to have the witness testify
2 here in person. So, our general objection perhaps
3 falls away if your Honours prefer to do it by video
4 link in terms of efficiency, but we make the
5 observation that it is better to encourage witnesses to
6 come to The Hague. Otherwise, a situation could easily
7 develop in future cases where the whole process is by
8 video link and, in our submission, the effect of
9 testifying by that process is far less satisfactory.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. We share your
11 concern about the resort to video link
12 testimony. On the other hand, I understand from
13 Mr. Fila there are compelling reasons as to why the
14 witnesses are not prepared to come over here and give
15 evidence in court -- I am asking you about the video
16 link.
17 MR. FILA: Your Honours, (redacted), we
18 have cleared up that case. Mr. Licina is an old man.
19 Let me remind you, he is a witness that the Prosecutor
20 said was one of the individuals who was at Ovcara -- he
21 is very old. I do not know whether they will be able
22 to bring him even to Belgrade.
23 MR. NIEMANN: I hesitate to cut short
24 Mr. Fila. I need to make it absolutely clear that, in
25 relation to the witness Mr. Mile Bakic, Mr. (redacted),
Page 1820
1 Mr. Ilija Koncarevic and Mr. Zivko Licina, there is
2 absolutely no objection -- those matters have been
3 dealt with before -- it is the addition of the other 12
4 we are concerned with.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: I think it is eight -- there
6 are 12 altogether. There are four plus eight.
7 MR. NIEMANN: I am sorry.
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Eight -- you have misgivings
9 about the other eight?
10 MR. NIEMANN: We do not know the reason why,
11 and we believe that it is probably because it is just
12 more efficient and easier. We accept that -- there is
13 no question about that, but it does, in our submission,
14 tend to detract from the effectiveness of the
15 testimony.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila, could you restate
17 in court the reasons why you are suggesting that the
18 eight witnesses who should have been heard in May
19 cannot come here to give evidence in court, but should
20 be heard through video link conference?
21 MR. FILA: There are two reasons. One is the
22 lack of travelling papers -- (redacted)
23 (redacted). You must understand one thing, your
24 Honours: a large number of these people, when they
25 fled from Croatia to Serbia, or to Montenegro or
Page 1821
1 wherever, they were given refugee papers. You have
2 that in the supporting material -- that is explained to
3 you, so they have no citizenship, and if you have no
4 citizenship, you cannot have travelling papers or
5 travelling documents. Therefore, they cannot come even
6 if they wanted to come.
7 Another part, like (redacted), he is the
8 commander of the Territorial Defence in Petrova Gora.
9 Fear is the reason. You know the witness that
10 Mr. Williamson brought, you know what he said about the
11 Territorial Defence. What was his name? It was
12 Witness Q. That is why he is afraid, but I completely
13 agree with Mr. Niemann's attitude that it is better to
14 bring the witnesses here than have a video link
15 conference. But, your Honour, let us look at this from
16 another aspect. The day that these four are heard, the
17 four that Mr. Niemann agrees to, I am going to bring
18 some of them, and there is no harm in hearing their
19 voices, and if they are worth half the testimonies
20 presented here, that is worth something, a point will
21 have been gained. Perhaps they will help us.
22 But, I cannot make them come -- you must
23 believe me. That is my explanation.
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 1822
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted). You heard
3 Mr. Williamson explain the difficulties involved in
4 bringing witnesses here, and my difficulties are even
5 greater. They have all three asked for protective
6 measures as well -- after the time I asked safe conduct
7 for them, so since then they have asked for protective
8 measures as well -- for face distortion. You have been
9 doing this same job -- you know how difficult it is
10 with witnesses.
11 I do not think there is any problem in giving
12 them safe conduct.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
14 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, Mr. Fila may be
15 assured that we will be as cooperative as we possibly
16 can be in making the situation as easy as it can be for
17 him to get his witnesses here. We will not do anything
18 to interfere with that or for his testimony to be
19 heard. It was only we were concerned we did not know
20 the reasons. With respect to the temporary nature of
21 their travelling documents, my experience has been that
22 the Victims and Witness Unit seem to have a remarkable
23 relationship with the Dutch authorities and have been
24 able to achieve a great deal in relation to Prosecution
25 witnesses, if they are given the time and notice, and I
Page 1823
1 do not want to go into details, but they have been in
2 circumstances much more difficult than that which
3 Mr. Fila has explained, so I would first ask him to
4 exhaust that avenue with them before he finally says
5 that he cannot bring them here because of that
6 technical problem.
7 If witnesses refuse to come, and their
8 testimony is important, obviously the Prosecution is
9 not going to object to that. If witnesses are fearful,
10 again, I would ask that the Victims and Witness Unit be
11 given an opportunity at least to explain to the
12 witnesses what facilities are available to them in
13 order to offer them protection if they were to testify
14 here in The Hague. They are most expert in their work
15 in looking after witnesses in these circumstances and
16 reassuring them at times when they are fearful.
17 If all else fails, we will not object to it,
18 your Honours.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted).
22 MR. FILA: I am sorry, Mr. Niemann, just one
23 more thing. It is precisely because safe conduct is an
24 issue that I asked these three witnesses to arrive on
25 Sunday -- to be in The Hague for three days only, while
Page 1824
1 the others will be arriving tomorrow. So that this
2 period for which safe conduct is requested, which does
3 create certain difficulties for the Registrar, be as
4 short as possible, from Sunday until Thursday. I
5 cannot do more than that. Sorry, Mr. Niemann, for
6 having interrupted you.
7 MR. NIEMANN: The issue of safe conduct is a
8 broader issue than just the Tribunal. This involves
9 the Dutch Government as well. We do not know what
10 position the Dutch Government has in relation to
11 particular individuals, and so bringing them here does
12 require negotiation and consultation with them. So it
13 is not just a simple case of saying, "Well the
14 Prosecution are being difficult." We are not being
15 difficult.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: You do not object.
17 MR. NIEMANN: No.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: We can proceed on the
19 assumption that if the Dutch authorities are agreeable,
20 the three witnesses will get safe conduct and will give
21 testimony next week.
22 MR. FILA: May I give some further
23 explanation? Perhaps it is a nice thing to say and
24 perhaps it is not, but these persons are not fearful of
25 anyone but the Prosecution. They really want safe
Page 1825
1 conduct only from the Prosecution. They want to make
2 sure -- sorry, this is not personal about Mr. Niemann,
3 but the Prosecutor is not going to arrest them. That
4 is the kind of guarantee I need from you and protective
5 measures are another thing, facial distortion,
6 et cetera. I do not know what the Dutch Government has
7 to do with it -- if you pass a decision or ruling
8 saying they will not be arrested by the Prosecution,
9 that is sufficient for me.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Therefore, the safe conduct
11 in this case is not a travel document but it has the
12 main purpose of granting immunity from prosecution. On
13 the other hand, I think Mr. Niemann is absolutely right
14 in saying we also need to consult with the Dutch
15 authorities, because the Dutch authorities might have
16 other reasons for not granting an immunity to those
17 witnesses. So, therefore, let us see whether the Dutch
18 authorities grant their consent and I understand that,
19 in any case, there is no objection from the
20 Prosecution. The Prosecution is prepared to grant
21 immunity from prosecution to those three witnesses.
22 MR. NIEMANN: We will not arrest them when
23 they are here. I do not think I can go any wider than
24 that at the moment.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: I take your point.
Page 1826
1 MR. FILA: Your Honour, not only when they
2 come here, but allow them to go back, too.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: I mean the whole period of
4 their stay in The Netherlands. We have this list of
5 witnesses -- 16 plus 27. I wonder whether I can ask
6 Mr. Fila whether he intends to call Mr. Dokmanovic as a
7 witness, to give evidence on his behalf? It is just a
8 query -- you are not required to --
9 MR. FILA: Your Honour, in this period,
10 certainly not, and his health condition is such that
11 I would prefer deciding on this matter in May, thank
12 you.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: How much time do you need in
14 May, because we will probably go through the various
15 witnesses by Tuesday of next week? Then, in May, we
16 will have the 12 witnesses to be heard through video
17 link conference, and all the other ones. There will
18 therefore be 31 in May. Do you need two weeks in May?
19 MR. FILA: Your Honour, I will try to make it
20 shorter than two weeks, but I need the cooperation of
21 the other side, too. I am not the only one who can say
22 that, because the cross-examination will be longer, I
23 imagine, than the examination-in-chief. So, as you can
24 see, according to the Defence schedule, the witnesses
25 to be heard in May are basically alibi witnesses from
Page 1827
1 the tape. As far as the general circumstances are
2 concerned, why what happened in Croatia and how it
3 happened -- we are going to deal with that now. So,
4 all the experts and that. There is going to be one
5 remaining expert, a neuro psychiatrist, and he will be
6 heard in May, the one who is monitoring health, that
7 will be all. Believe me, I will make an effort and you
8 see I have been making an effort to expedite matters.
9 I imagine we will let the Prosecution have their last
10 word in May, too, in those two weeks, but I shall
11 complete it in hopefully less than two weeks.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: At the end of the
13 presentation of your case, we will have the closing
14 statements, and I wonder whether we could finish by the
15 end of May, because we have only two weeks in May, and
16 I do not know whether we can have a week in June.
17 MR. FILA: We could certainly conclude in
18 June, as far as I am concerned we will be through in
19 June, because we will need a day to see the videotape.
20 JUDGE CASSESE: Did you say June or May?
21 MR. FILA: June -- I said June for sure, but
22 in May I will show the tapes and in June we finish for
23 sure, no doubt about that.
24 MR. NIEMANN: I am not sure about May for
25 the Prosecution. We do anticipate calling some
Page 1828
1 evidence in rebuttal. I may not, but I assume we will,
2 so I think June is more realistic in that sense.
3 I noted Mr. Fila mentioned the psychiatrist
4 and ask that if that evidence in any way touches upon
5 the provisions of Rule 61A(ii)(b) that we be given
6 notice of that.
7 MR. FILA: No, no, no, no -- no, no, no, no,
8 I would have told you that straight away at the very
9 outset -- no, no. It would not only be unfair, but it
10 would really be offensive on my part if I did that to
11 you.
12 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Fila has been very helpful
13 and I really did not mean that in any way to sound
14 offensive -- it was just the first I heard of it and
15 I was a bit concerned.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. We were
17 wondering about the status of admissions. We received
18 various documents, including the last document was a
19 letter from Mr. Fila with a letter from the Prosecutor
20 annexed to that letter from Defence counsel. I wonder
21 whether we could have some sort of indication of the
22 final status of the admissions -- points which have
23 been accepted by the Prosecutor and the admissions by
24 the Defence counsel.
25 MR. NIEMANN: From the point of view of the
Page 1829
1 Prosecution, I did not understand there to be any
2 outstanding issues in relation to admissions.
3 JUDGE MAY: I am sure that is right,
4 Mr. Niemann. Where are we going to find the finalised
5 state. We have the letter from Mr. Fila attached to his
6 list of admissions of 3 April. Is that the document
7 which sets out the final state of admissions? We have
8 attached to it your letter of 25 March. In effect, if
9 that is right, you are not making admissions but you
10 are not going to dispute various facts.
11 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour, the
12 Prosecution technically does not make admissions, but
13 that is our position, to help Mr. Fila in the
14 presentation of his case. In relation to the
15 admissions agreed upon between the parties, the signed
16 version of those have been filed and with the exception
17 of one admission --
18 MR. FILA: Your Honour, the last admission I
19 sent to the Prosecutor was not submitted now by the
20 Prosecutor, so I think he should submit it -- 14 April.
21 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Fila is right -- we are
22 waiting for one outstanding one, for it to be signed by
23 Mr. Dokmanovic and Mr. Fila. It has been signed and
24 supplied to us. I can tender it now or alternatively
25 file it in the usual way. If your Honours would like
Page 1830
1 to see it, it is here. That is the original copy.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Niemann. If
3 you could file it formally so we can get copies of the
4 document.
5 MR. NIEMANN: Yes.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: I wonder whether there are
7 any points any party would like to raise before we
8 adjourn?
9 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, there is perhaps
10 one point. It may transpire this way in any event,
11 bearing in mind the scheduling of the court hearings,
12 but at the conclusion of the Defence case, in terms of
13 evidence, if we are to embark upon any rebuttal case,
14 we would need a short period -- nothing more than two
15 weeks, I would think -- but a short period out of court
16 to gather any evidence which we may need in rebuttal,
17 should that transpire. Generally, these things work
18 themselves out, because of the court's commitments
19 there are delays anyway, so it often happens that way,
20 but, when your Honours were talking about concluding in
21 May, it was that matter that concerned me. I did not
22 think that we would hear the end of the case and be
23 able to conclude the case in its totality, if that were
24 to happen that way.
25 I should raise that at this stage, because if
Page 1831
1 we are to gather rebuttal evidence, it would take a
2 short time to do so. We are not going to remain idle
3 on this. If issues arise during the course of the
4 evidence that we believe needs rebutting, we will
5 immediately embark upon that exercise through the
6 Defence case, but it is possible that the last
7 witnesses that are heard, we would need a little time
8 for that. I do not see anything extensive in it.
9 I just raise it at this stage.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
11 MR. FILA: Your Honour, I fully appreciate
12 Mr. Niemann's point of view and I have no objections,
13 but, in my wish to speed up matters, according to the
14 rules of this Tribunal, evidence is presented one after
15 the other -- first I do, then the Prosecutor,
16 et cetera, et cetera. Nowhere does it say we cannot
17 reach a different kind of agreement on this matter.
18 I am fully willing to accept that, while I am
19 presenting evidence, if the Prosecutor thinks that
20 something else should be presented, too, that they say
21 so straight away. I will not oppose that.
22 This is not against the rules, and this can
23 be done, if the court so decides and, during that
24 period, if the Prosecutor wants additional evidence,
25 I suggest that we set a date immediately in June and
Page 1832
1 that we conclude by then, because I take upon myself
2 the obligation of concluding in May, and, as they say
3 in our country, men should -- as they say in French,
4 people should keep their word.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Let us make an effort --
6 I think probably if you could conclude your case in
7 May, then the Prosecutor may need two weeks,
8 I understand.
9 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: A break of two weeks in June
11 and then we could finish in some time in June -- maybe
12 in the second half of June. That depends on the
13 availability of courtrooms, because we have a further
14 problem. We now stand adjourned and we reconvene
15 tomorrow at 8.30 sharp.
16 (At 10.50 a.m. the matter adjourned
17 until Tuesday, 21 April 1998 at 8.30 a.m.)
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