1. 1 Monday, 25th May, 1998

    2 (In open session)

    3 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

    4 (The accused entered court)

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. Could I call

    6 upon the registrar to call the case. I wonder whether

    7 we could start with the video conference. I assume the

    8 first witness will be Zivko Licina.

    9 Mr. Bos, can you hear me?

    10 MR. BOS: Yes, I can hear you. Very soft.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Should I speak louder?

    12 MR. BOS: Now it's fine. Thank you.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: So we can start. Could you

    14 ask the witness to stand and make the solemn

    15 declaration?

    16 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    17 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    18 truth.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be

    20 seated. Mr. Fila?

    21 ZIVKO LICINA, Sworn:


    23 Q. Mr. Licina, did you make a statement to

    24 Investigator Vojislav Ore and could you please take a

    25 look at it and say whether this is your statement?

  2. 1 A. Yes, this is my statement.

    2 Q. Mr. Licina, what are you by profession and

    3 where were you employed?

    4 A. I am a professor of mathematics. I worked in

    5 the Vukovar High School before the war, and I still

    6 work there.

    7 Q. Do you know Slavko Dokmanovic?

    8 A. Yes, I know Slavko Dokmanovic.

    9 Q. Do you know Emil Cakalic or Dragutin

    10 Berghofer?

    11 A. No, I never met them personally.

    12 Q. Please, could you remember the following

    13 date, the 20th of November, 1991 now?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. And could you tell us what was happening to

    16 you on that day, how come you were at the hospital,

    17 et cetera?

    18 A. I came to the hospital on the 2nd of

    19 November, 1991, together with my wife who fell ill in

    20 the cellar where we were staying in Mitnica. Due to my

    21 wife's illness, I stayed on at the hospital too until

    22 the war operations had ceased on the 20th of November.

    23 On that day, we left the hospital, my wife and I, in a

    24 bus around 11.00.

    25 We arrived in Ovcara sometime between 1.00

  3. 1 and 1.30 p.m. We spent some time there and, at one

    2 point in time, a soldier came by (redacted) who

    3 recognised me and my wife on the bus, and who asked us

    4 to leave the bus immediately, which is exactly what we

    5 did. (redacted) recognised --

    6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter can't hear

    7 the name

    8 A. -- recognised someone, and they -- so it's a

    9 few people, left the bus too.

    10 THE INTERPRETER: Again, there is no tone.

    11 A. -- in front of the bus, we went to the

    12 command of the military unit which was near the

    13 buses -- near the place where the buses were. We

    14 stayed there all afternoon and sometime around dusk we

    15 were taken to VELEPROMET. We were driven off to

    16 VELEPROMET. We spent the night at VELEPROMET and the

    17 next day, on the 21st of November, we left for Serbia.

    18 Q. Mr. Licina, do you remember in which bus you

    19 were?

    20 A. In the second bus.

    21 Q. How many buses were there, approximately?

    22 A. I beg your pardon?

    23 Q. How many buses were there, approximately?

    24 A. The bus was full, but we were all sitting.

    25 We all had seats.

  4. 1 Q. When you left the bus, did you leave this

    2 place immediately or did you spend some time in front

    3 of the hanger?

    4 A. We spent a few minutes there.

    5 Q. Did you see Slavko Dokmanovic there?

    6 A. No.

    7 Q. Could you see him, had he been there?

    8 A. Oh, I certainly would have seen him had he

    9 been there.

    10 Q. As you were leaving Ovcara, what time was it,

    11 approximately?

    12 A. It was dusk. Perhaps around 5.00, 4.30 or

    13 5.00.

    14 Q. Did you see Slavko Dokmanovic then?

    15 A. No, no. Slavko Dokmanovic certainly was not

    16 at the place where I was.

    17 Q. Who drove you away from there then and who

    18 were you with in this vehicle?

    19 A. It was a military vehicle. I didn't see the

    20 driver. I think it was a Jeep. The four of us sat

    21 there (redacted), we sat in this vehicle, and

    22 then we went to -- back to VELEPROMET.

    23 Q. Did you talk about something en route, how

    24 you left Ovcara? Was there any discussion about that?

    25 A. Not in the car, really. There wasn't any

  5. 1 special conversation because all afternoon the four of

    2 us were together in the command of this military unit.

    3 Q. Mr. Licina, finally, am I saying the truth

    4 when I say that you arrived in front of the hangar

    5 between 1.30 and 2.00, and you left the area sometime

    6 before 5.00?

    7 A. Yes, yes, that would be it. That would be

    8 it.

    9 MR. FILA: Thank you for coming. No further

    10 questions, Your Honour.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Williamson?


    13 Q. Good morning, Professor Licina. Do you

    14 remember meeting with an investigator from the Office

    15 of the Prosecutor, Mr. Vladimir Dzuro, on the 16th and

    16 17th of November, 1997 in Vukovar?

    17 A. Yes. Yes.

    18 Q. At that time did you give him a statement

    19 that was taken down in the English language but was

    20 read back to you in Serbian?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. And after having the statement read back to

    23 you by the interpreter, did you, in fact, sign it as

    24 being truthful and correct?

    25 A. Yes.

  6. 1 MR. WILLIAMSON: At this time I would ask

    2 that the witness be shown a copy of the statement which

    3 we will mark as the next Prosecutor's exhibit number,

    4 if the registrar could help me there.

    5 THE REGISTRAR: This is number D101.

    6 MR. WILLIAMSON: No, I'm sorry, this is a

    7 Prosecution exhibit.

    8 MR. FILA: I'm sorry, Mr. Williamson. I

    9 forgot to ask for our statement to be admitted into

    10 evidence, if you don't object to that. I'm sorry. And

    11 I haven't even seen your statement, so could I please

    12 have a copy of it?

    13 MR. WILLIAMSON: We have no objection to the

    14 Defence Exhibit being entered, and at this time that's

    15 what I was preparing to do, was to hand over our copy.

    16 I was just trying to mark it for identification

    17 purposes before doing so.

    18 MR. FILA: The name, perhaps, the name should

    19 be deleted. Your Honour, the witness, Licina,

    20 mentioned a name.(redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You're right.

    23 MR. WILLIAMSON: So if I could have the

    24 Prosecutor's exhibit number, please, the next one in

    25 line?

  7. 1 THE REGISTRAR: This is number 204.

    2 MR. WILLIAMSON: Thank you. At this time I

    3 would ask if a copy of this could be shown to the

    4 witness, and I will provide now copies both in English

    5 and Serbian to the Defence and to the Court.

    6 MR. BOS: The witness has a copy in front of

    7 him.


    9 Q. Professor Licina, is this your signature that

    10 appears on this document?

    11 A. There's no signature here. Yes. Yes.

    12 MR. WILLIAMSON: At this time I would tender

    13 this as Prosecutor's Exhibit 204 under seal.

    14 Q. Professor Licina, you are a Serb, are you

    15 not?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. And you are originally from Vukovar; correct?

    18 A. I was born near Prodavska Slatina.

    19 Q. And how long had you lived in Vukovar?

    20 A. Since 1967.

    21 Q. And where was your home located in Vukovar in

    22 1991, in what part of the city?

    23 A. If you are familiar with Vukovar, it was

    24 Mitnica.

    25 Q. This is the area that is located near the

  8. 1 water tower, is it not, in Vukovar?

    2 A. Relatively.

    3 Q. And what were conditions like in Mitnica

    4 during the course of the battle?

    5 A. I don't know what conditions you are

    6 referring to.

    7 Q. What were your living conditions like during

    8 this time period, for you and your family?

    9 A. You mean during the fighting? You mean

    10 during the fighting?

    11 Q. Yes.

    12 A. Well, my wife and I lived in the basement

    13 until we went to the hospital.

    14 Q. Were you forced to stay at your home during

    15 the battle?

    16 A. It's not that I was forced by someone, but

    17 it's a pity I hadn't left before the fighting began.

    18 Q. Are you aware of other Serbs that also chose

    19 to stay in Vukovar during the battle?

    20 A. Some of them remained. I can't say how many,

    21 really.

    22 Q. Now, at any time during the battle, while you

    23 were staying at your home in Mitnica, were you

    24 mistreated by the Croats because you were a Serb?

    25 A. Not especially because of that. There wasn't

  9. 1 any mistreatment because of that.

    2 Q. What happened to Mitnica during the course

    3 of the battle? Did the area sustain much damage?

    4 A. Yes. Yes, yes.

    5 Q. And did this damage come from artillery or

    6 air attacks or a combination of the two?

    7 A. It was difficult for me to see what was going

    8 on up there from my basement and to see where the

    9 shelling was coming from.

    10 Q. Now, you indicated earlier that, on the 2nd

    11 of November, you moved to Vukovar Hospital because your

    12 wife fell ill; is that correct?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. And how did you get from your home to the

    15 hospital on the 2nd of November?

    16 A. Well, a neighbour drove me in his car, me and

    17 my wife I mean.

    18 Q. And was this neighbour a Croatian soldier?

    19 A. I can't remember right now whether he was a

    20 soldier or not.

    21 Q. In your statement that you gave to Mr. Ore,

    22 you said on the 2nd of November, "One of my neighbours

    23 found a Croatian soldier who agreed to drive us to the

    24 hospital. I do not know his name."

    25 Is that correct?

  10. 1 A. It is possible that he was a soldier, and it

    2 is for certain that my neighbour found this man.

    3 Q. And while you were at the hospital, were you

    4 ever mistreated in any way because you were a Serb?

    5 A. I can't say that I was mistreated, no, in the

    6 hospital.

    7 Q. There were a lot of allegations made to the

    8 effect that the medical staff at Vukovar Hospital was

    9 mistreating Serbs. Did you ever see any evidence of

    10 this in the 18 days that you were there?

    11 A. I didn't see any evidence of that kind where

    12 I was.

    13 MR. FILA: Objection, Your Honour. I'm

    14 sorry, Mr. Williamson, but I never claimed, nor did

    15 anyone here, that Serbs were mistreated at the Vukovar

    16 Hospital. I don't know who said that, really.

    17 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, there have been

    18 allegations to that effect. I think the transcript is

    19 very clear on that during the course of the trial, that

    20 this has come out.

    21 MR. FILA: Serb doctors were there. Serb

    22 doctors were there. How come? Which one of the

    23 witnesses for the Defence said that he or she was

    24 mistreated there? Show me the transcript. Not a

    25 single Defence witness has been speaking of the

  11. 1 hospital, by the way. I mean, I don't mind if somebody

    2 had testified to that, but as far as I know, no one had

    3 testified to that effect. It would have been terrible

    4 had it been so.

    5 MR. WILLIAMSON: This was the last question I

    6 had on this topic, but Witness Q testified to this

    7 effect, that Dr. Bosanac was looked at as a

    8 Dr. Mengele by the Serbs taken to the hospital. She

    9 was also taken and imprisoned after the hospital was

    10 taken over, as were other members of the hospital staff

    11 by the Serb authorities. They were imprisoned in

    12 Serbia on allegations for war crimes, that they had

    13 taken blood from the prisoners. This has come out due

    14 to testimony of Dr. Bosanac, from Dr. Striber and from

    15 Witness Q, and I'm addressing this to a Serb who was

    16 present in the hospital and asking him: Did he see any

    17 evidence of this? But as I said, this was my last

    18 question on this topic.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. You may proceed.


    21 Q. During the night between the 19th and the

    22 20th of November, where were you located in the

    23 hospital?

    24 A. In the same part where I had spent the

    25 previous 17 or 18 days; namely, in the basement of the

  12. 1 neuropsychiatry ward.

    2 Q. And approximately what time on the morning of

    3 the 20th were you directed outside of the hospital and

    4 told to get on buses?

    5 A. I think it was around 9.00 when we were told

    6 to leave, and then it took time. I mean, when we left

    7 and while the buses got there, et cetera, so it did

    8 take quite a bit of time.

    9 Q. And the buses -- were you able to tell what

    10 kind of licence plates were on the buses?

    11 A. Yes. But I can't remember the numbers,

    12 though.

    13 Q. But were these licence plates of the JNA?

    14 A. I think -- I think they were JNA. I can't

    15 say that for sure right now, but I think they were JNA.

    16 Q. Now, when you got on the bus, was there any

    17 type of military personnel on the bus with you and your

    18 wife?

    19 A. There was a soldier there.

    20 Q. And when you got on the bus, where did you

    21 think you were going?

    22 A. I wanted to get to Novi Sad as soon as

    23 possible, and that is what I thought, that I was going

    24 to Novi Sad. I was naive, that's for sure.

    25 Q. Now, after the buses left the hospital, they

  13. 1 did not go directly to Ovcara; is that correct?

    2 A. That's right. They didn't go immediately.

    3 As I said a few minutes ago, we arrived at Ovcara

    4 around 1.30 p.m.

    5 Q. So where did you stop in between?

    6 A. Well, we stopped -- I can't say this for sure

    7 now -- but I think it was the economic yard of Vupik.

    8 Q. And that is located adjacent to the JNA

    9 barracks, is it not?

    10 A. Well, nearby, yes, near the barracks.

    11 Q. And how long did you remain at this location?

    12 A. If we left around 11.00 and if we arrived

    13 around 1.30, then it is possible that we stayed there

    14 for about two hours.

    15 Q. And while you were there at this place where

    16 the buses were parked, at some point in time did a

    17 former student of yours, who was a soldier, spot you on

    18 the bus?

    19 A. Yes, he did. Yes.

    20 Q. And did the soldier seem upset that you were

    21 on the bus?

    22 A. Yes. He was surprised to see me there, yes.

    23 Q. Did he make any attempts to get you off of

    24 the bus?

    25 A. Yes, he did try. I think he tried.

  14. 1 Q. Did he, in fact, get on the bus?

    2 A. No.

    3 Q. Did another soldier get on the bus and speak

    4 to you?

    5 A. Yes, but I don't know who it was.

    6 Q. In the end, you were not taken off the bus at

    7 this location, though, were you?

    8 A. No, I wasn't.

    9 Q. When the buses left from there, did they go

    10 directly to Ovcara?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Now, when you arrived at Ovcara, what did you

    13 observe occurring there?

    14 A. Well, I don't know. We didn't pay

    15 attention. Quite simply, I didn't pay attention

    16 because I was waiting for the buses to go on. I didn't

    17 know where we were located. I think, as I said a

    18 moment ago, that we were going towards Novi Sad. Until

    19 the soldier turned up, who recognised us, asked us to

    20 leave the bus, and, as I said a moment ago, took us to

    21 the command of that military unit.

    22 Q. How many people did this soldier take off the

    23 bus there?

    24 A. I said a moment ago, my wife, myself, and two

    25 others, two other men.

  15. 1 Q. Now, your wife is of Czech ethnicity; is she

    2 not?

    3 A. Yes, she is.

    4 Q. Did the soldier seem concerned about the

    5 reaction of the other Serb soldiers if he took more

    6 people off of the bus?

    7 A. I can't say. I don't know how far he was

    8 concerned. That's his own personal affair.

    9 Q. Well, do you recall telling Mr. Dzuro in the

    10 statement, "He said that if he made any mistakes, they

    11 would kill him"?

    12 A. I can't quite remember that now. I can't

    13 remember.

    14 Q. Well, would you like to read the part of the

    15 statement where that is indicated? It's on page 5 of

    16 the English version. I'm not sure exactly where the

    17 Serb version, where that would be, but it begins the

    18 paragraph with: "As soldier B took the other two men

    19 from the bus, I saw other people trying to attract his

    20 attention. Obviously desperate to get out as well."

    21 This would be probably the next-to-the-last

    22 page, or perhaps the third-from-the-last.

    23 A. Yes, yes, yes.

    24 Q. And you said "Soldier B was in a very bad

    25 state because he could not afford to make mistakes. He

  16. 1 said that he was sure that the four of us did nothing

    2 wrong, but that even as he knew those others, he could

    3 not guarantee for them. He said that if he made any

    4 mistakes, they would kill him. He did not specify who

    5 those "they" were, but I assumed he meant his fellow

    6 soldiers."

    7 Is that correct?

    8 A. Yes, he said something along those lines. He

    9 said that he couldn't be certain of all of them to take

    10 them out from the bus, and I don't know upon whose

    11 suggestion he did take us off the bus.

    12 Q. Now, you've indicated that when you got off

    13 the bus, you were able to see a little more clearly

    14 about what was happening there; is that correct?

    15 A. Well, let me say again that I did not pay

    16 attention to what was happening around the bus, towards

    17 that particular part, but what I did say I have already

    18 stated -- see, I have already stated.

    19 Q. Now, you were able to see what was going on

    20 in front of the hangar, were you not, that people were

    21 being taken off the bus and going through a line of

    22 soldiers?

    23 A. Once again, I say that I did not pay

    24 attention to this.

    25 Q. So were you able to see the people that were

  17. 1 standing in front of the hangar?

    2 A. Once again, let me say that I did not

    3 recognise anybody, and I was not paying a great deal of

    4 attention to what was happening, as you say, with that

    5 line, line of soldiers.

    6 Q. Now, in the paragraph just above the one that

    7 I asked you to look at, the last couple of sentences,

    8 you indicate that, "The first bus and our bus were a

    9 few metres apart, so I would say that I must have been

    10 at least 40 metres away from the soldiers. Since I

    11 wear glasses, it was impossible for me to recognise

    12 anyone in that group, either the soldiers or the people

    13 climbing down from the first bus."

    14 Is that correct?

    15 A. Yes, more or less.

    16 Q. What do you mean when you say "more or

    17 less"? Was it possible for you to recognise anyone in

    18 front of the building, anyone at all?

    19 A. It was possible, but I just looked for a

    20 second. I glanced there for a second and saw that I

    21 didn't recognise anybody and continued to talk to the

    22 people that were with me.

    23 Q. Approximately how many people were in front

    24 of the building?

    25 A. I can't tell you the number. I really can't

  18. 1 tell you how many. After seven years, it's difficult

    2 to say.

    3 Q. How were they dressed?

    4 A. Differently.

    5 Q. In uniforms and civilian clothes?

    6 A. It's difficult under those conditions to say

    7 what a uniform was and what civilian clothing was.

    8 Q. But I assume that it would be fair to say

    9 that you looked for just a second, from approximately

    10 40 metres away, did not recognise anyone there, and

    11 turned the other direction; is that correct?

    12 A. Yes, it is.

    13 Q. Now, after this, this soldier that had taken

    14 you off the bus, did he take you to another location?

    15 A. Yes. He took us to the command of a military

    16 unit close by.

    17 Q. And in your statement you indicated that this

    18 was a yellow building about 150 to 200 metres back from

    19 where the buses were parked; is that correct?

    20 A. Yes, it is. That's roughly right, yes.

    21 Q. Now, when you went into this yellow building,

    22 did you have the opportunity to speak to a JNA officer

    23 who was there?

    24 A. Yes. Yes, I did.

    25 Q. And what did you talk about with this JNA

  19. 1 officer? I believe in your statement you said that he

    2 was a Captain; is that correct?

    3 A. I can't say exactly. I think he was, but the

    4 military ranks in war, I'm not sure that I recognise

    5 them.

    6 Q. And did you have discussions with this

    7 officer in regard to the shelling of Vukovar?

    8 A. Yes, yes.

    9 Q. And do you recall what was said during this

    10 conversation?

    11 A. Well, I remember that he asked -- we said we

    12 were going from the hospital, and he said, "How come

    13 the hospital was shelled all the time?" "No", he said,

    14 "we are aiming at military objects."

    15 Q. Based on your conversation with him, did you

    16 ascertain that he was affiliated with some type of

    17 artillery unit?

    18 A. I think that he was, yes.

    19 Q. Now, after all of this happened, you

    20 indicated that you went to Serbia. At some point in

    21 time, did you return back to Vukovar?

    22 A. After three days, I went back after three or

    23 four days.

    24 Q. And you have remained in Vukovar since that

    25 time; is that correct?

  20. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. What about the Croats who had lived in

    3 Vukovar prior to the battle? Were they still in

    4 Vukovar when you went back?

    5 A. No, they weren't.

    6 Q. Thank you, Professor.

    7 THE INTERPRETER: I didn't hear what the

    8 witness said.

    9 A. Most of them were not there. Most of them

    10 were not there.

    11 MR. WILLIAMSON: Thank you, Professor. I

    12 have no further questions.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Fila?

    14 MR. FILA: I have just now seen the statement

    15 that he made, but I have no objections, but I'd like to

    16 ask a question. It's an unfavourable position that I

    17 am in. But never mind, this is not the first time.

    18 Re-examined by Mr. Fila.

    19 Q. Mr. Licina, in the statement you made to

    20 Investigator ^ Zira, you talked about shelling from the

    21 hospital, that there was firing from the hospital, but

    22 you don't know whether it was from the hospital or from

    23 the environs of the hospital. What do you mean by the

    24 environs?

    25 A. The courtyard. Well, it's difficult for me

  21. 1 to say because I was in the basement of the hospital,

    2 so whether -- how far away this was, from whence the

    3 firing came, I don't know.

    4 Q. And now a final question for you,

    5 Mr. Licina. You wear glasses?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. You said that you were 40 metres away?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. And that for a short time you remained in

    10 front of the hospital -- in front of the hangar, I'm

    11 sorry. Did you find these glasses an impediment to

    12 seeing Mr. Dokmanovic, if he was there?

    13 A. No, they were not an impediment because I

    14 looked, I did not recognise anybody, and I turned in

    15 the other direction and continued my conversation.

    16 Q. And let us repeat: When you went back, how

    17 far away from the hangar were you then before leaving?

    18 A. Well, we went to this building --

    19 Q. Yes. And you came back from the building,

    20 and how far away from the hangar were you then? Never

    21 mind.

    22 A. We started right out in front of the

    23 building.

    24 Q. So you say that Slavko Dokmanovic, when you

    25 were in front of Ovcara and looked that way, that he

  22. 1 was not there?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Thank you.

    4 A. Where I was, he was certainly not there.

    5 MR. FILA: Thank you.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Professor Licina,

    7 I have just one question for you. You mentioned that a

    8 soldier -- you said at some point a soldier at Ovcara,

    9 a soldier recognised yourself and your wife and asked

    10 you to leave the bus. May I ask you whether the

    11 soldier, this soldier, was wearing a JNA uniform?

    12 A. As far as I remember, it was a camouflage

    13 uniform, and I don't think he had a cap on his head, so

    14 that I can't say whether it was the JNA or not.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Was he wearing any insignia?

    16 A. I don't recall.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. No objection to

    18 the witness being released?

    19 MR. WILLIAMSON: No objection.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Thank you so

    21 much, Professor Licina, for giving evidence. You may

    22 now be released.

    23 (The witness withdrew)

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Before we move on to our next

    25 witness, we want to express some sort of misgivings

  23. 1 about the Prosecutor handing a document, a witness

    2 statement in court, without previously informing the

    3 Defence. And since this is a crucial point, it is not

    4 actually regulated in our rules of procedure and

    5 evidence, we were wondering whether we could hear

    6 argument at some stage, maybe this week, on this

    7 particular point, whether or not it is appropriate for

    8 a party to produce in court a witness statement before

    9 prior information or notification to the other party.

    10 So I wonder whether we could now move on. However, as

    11 I say, I think we could spend some time arguing this

    12 point so that we may eventually make a ruling on this

    13 matter.

    14 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, if you wish, we

    15 can address it right now, if this is an issue that the

    16 Court wants to take up.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Well, it depends on -- I

    18 don't want to hold up the witnesses --

    19 MR. FILA: Mr. Williamson, all your arguments

    20 are quite all right, but let us not waste time because

    21 we have a lot of witnesses to get through.

    22 MR. WILLIAMSON: Very well.

    23 MR. FILA: And I can hear your arguments on

    24 Wednesday when we don't have the video link, if that's

    25 all right.

  24. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: I think it's a good

    2 suggestion. Thank you. It's better to put it off.

    3 MR. WILLIAMSON: Very well.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: And we will go on with the

    5 witnesses, so may we -- we are now going to call

    6 witness Bakic.

    7 MR. FILA: Yes, Bakic. We have nine

    8 witnesses, you know.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: By the way, Mr. Fila, we

    10 forgot to give a number to your -- the witness

    11 statements of Professor Licina. D101?

    12 MR. FILA: 101, yes. I apologise. I

    13 forgot. Yes.

    14 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, in that same

    15 regard, we would mark the Serbian version of Professor

    16 Licina's statement as Prosecutor's Exhibit 204A. I

    17 believe I only introduced did as 204.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Mr. Bakic, good

    19 morning. Could you please make the solemn

    20 declaration?

    21 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    22 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    23 truth.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be

    25 seated.


    2 Examined by Mr. Fila

    3 Q. Mr. Bakic, what are you by profession and

    4 where were you employed in 1991?

    5 A. I am a worker by profession and I worked in

    6 the Vupik factory of Vukovar.

    7 Q. Did you know Emil Cakalic?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Do you know Slavko Dokmanovic?

    10 A. Yes, I do.

    11 Q. Did you, on the 20th of November, 1991, in

    12 the afternoon hours, were you at the Ovcara farm?

    13 A. Yes, I was.

    14 Q. Why were you there? When did you come? What

    15 did you come with, and at what time did you get there?

    16 A. Well, I drove a combi. I went there with a

    17 combi at about half past 4.00, twenty to five p.m.

    18 Q. Why did you go there?

    19 A. I was told that I had to take some people

    20 from Ovcara to the VELEPROMET.

    21 Q. Where did you see Emil Cakalic, if you did

    22 see him there?

    23 A. I saw him in front of the hangar.

    24 Q. There is an objection to the transcript. It

    25 says 4.00 or 5.00. No? It was half past four, twenty

  26. 1 to five. Is that correct? Is that what you said,

    2 Mr. Bakic?

    3 A. Yes, more or less, half past four, twenty to

    4 five.

    5 Q. What was the visibility in Ovcara at the time

    6 like?

    7 A. Well, it was dusk, half dark.

    8 Q. Where did you see Emil Cakalic and what did

    9 you do when you saw him?

    10 A. I saw him and several others.

    11 Q. Where were they standing?

    12 A. In front of the door as you get out of the

    13 bus.

    14 Q. What were you doing at that time?

    15 A. I drove the combi, and then they told me to

    16 take the five of them and to take them to VELEPROMET.

    17 Q. Did you leave your combi?

    18 A. Yes, I stepped out of the combi.

    19 Q. Did you stay for some time in front of the

    20 Ovcara?

    21 A. Yes, about 15 to 20 minutes.

    22 Q. Did you at any point around Emil Cakalic or

    23 anywhere there, as far as you could see, did you see

    24 Slavko Dokmanovic?

    25 A. No, I did not.

  27. 1 Q. And when did you leave Ovcara and who with?

    2 A. Well, five of them and myself left at around

    3 5.00 p.m. I don't know exactly.

    4 Q. Who was in the car with you that you recall?

    5 A. Well, I only know Cakalic was there and Kojic

    6 and a boy.

    7 Q. Was it Zoric perhaps?

    8 A. Kojic.

    9 Q. All right, Kojic. During the drive, did

    10 these people tell you how they were released from

    11 Ovcara?

    12 A. Well, during our talk they said that it was

    13 difficult but that they recognised Zoric and Stero

    14 and that he took them out.

    15 Q. Did they say that they recognised anybody

    16 else?

    17 A. No.

    18 Q. Did they mention in their conversation Slavko

    19 Dokmanovic, that they had recognised Slavko Dokmanovic?

    20 A. No.

    21 Q. Did you discuss Slavko Dokmanovic at all in

    22 the course of your journey?

    23 A. No.

    24 MR. FILA: Thank you, Mr. Bakic. I have no

    25 further questions. Thank you, Your Honour.

  28. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Niemann?

    2 Cross-examined by Mr. Niemann.

    3 MR. FILA: Your Honour, I'm sorry. I forgot

    4 again. Sorry. This is only because I'm in a hurry. I

    5 tried to finish this as soon as possible. Excuse me,

    6 Mr. Niemann, may I just show him the statement?

    7 Q. Did you sign a statement to Miroslav Vasic,

    8 an investigator?

    9 A. No.

    10 Q. Show it to me. It's from my office. Is that

    11 your statement? Is your signature on it?

    12 A. I don't remember.

    13 Q. Take a look at it, see if you signed it.

    14 This is Miroslav Vasic, a lawyer from my office?

    15 A. Oh, yes. Oh, yes, yes. That's it.

    16 MR. FILA: If there are no objections, please

    17 admit this into evidence as D102 and the English

    18 version would be 102B. And sorry, Mr. Niemann, sorry

    19 once again, but we just want to have as many people as

    20 possible, right?

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: No objection, Mr. Niemann?

    22 MR. NIEMANN: No, Your Honour.

    23 Q. Mr. Bakic, I just have a few questions for

    24 you, if I may?

    25 Did you have a military position during the

  29. 1 war on Vukovar, that is leading up to the 20th of

    2 November, 1991, or was it a civilian job that you had?

    3 A. Civilian.

    4 Q. Now, on the day of the 20th of November, who

    5 was it that told you that you should go out to Ovcara?

    6 A. I can't remember who told me to do that, but

    7 I was so told at VELEPROMET.

    8 Q. And are you able to say whether the person

    9 that told you to do it was wearing a military uniform

    10 or was he wearing civilian clothes?

    11 A. A military uniform.

    12 Q. And approximately when were you given the

    13 order or request or whatever it might be to go out to

    14 Ovcara?

    15 A. I can't tell really what time it was. I

    16 didn't even look at my watch.

    17 Q. Well, you say that you -- I think it's your

    18 evidence that you arrived there at about 4.30. It

    19 would have taken you how long to get there from


    21 A. Fifteen minutes, half an hour, it depends.

    22 Q. And let's assume it's, say, half an hour.

    23 Did you receive the message some considerable time

    24 before you left or did it seem to you, from thinking

    25 back now, that it may have been just that you received

  30. 1 the request and then you immediately left? Are you

    2 able to help me that way?

    3 A. I don't know.

    4 Q. Now, what were you told? What was the

    5 directions that you were given other than to go to --

    6 go from VELEPROMET to Ovcara? Were you given any other

    7 directions?

    8 A. No.

    9 Q. And they didn't say what they wanted you to

    10 do in any way?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. In the statement that has now been shown to

    13 you, the statement that you gave to the investigator

    14 for Mr. Fila, you say that -- in the third paragraph of

    15 that statement that the Territorial Defence ordered you

    16 to go to Ovcara on the 20th of November.

    17 Does that refresh your memory as to who it

    18 may have been that gave you the order?

    19 A. I can't remember.

    20 Q. Now, when you got to Ovcara, did you speak to

    21 anyone in particular who was in authority that you can

    22 recall?

    23 A. I didn't speak to anyone.

    24 Q. Did anyone speak to you? Did anyone give you

    25 any directions or tell you where to park or did it

  31. 1 appear that they were expecting you when you arrived?

    2 A. I was only told to take those five men to


    4 Q. Who told you to do that; do you remember?

    5 A. A man in uniform, but I don't know him.

    6 Q. Fair enough. Did he have -- what sort of a

    7 uniform did he have on, the man who told you; can you

    8 remember?

    9 A. A military uniform.

    10 Q. Was that a JNA uniform?

    11 A. JNA.

    12 Q. And did he appear to be a person with any

    13 rank, like an officer's status, or was he just an

    14 ordinary soldier, or perhaps you can't remember?

    15 A. I don't know. I think he was -- I don't

    16 know.

    17 Q. Now, were you dressed in military uniform on

    18 that day yourself?

    19 A. No.

    20 Q. When you parked your vehicle, you said you

    21 got out of the vehicle, did you? It's not what you

    22 said in your statement. I think that's something you

    23 said just a moment ago, that you got out of your

    24 vehicle when you arrived there.

    25 A. Yes.

  32. 1 Q. How far away from the front of the hangar

    2 were you when you got out of your vehicle?

    3 A. I was in front of the door.

    4 Q. How far away from the door were you?

    5 A. It was at the very door itself. That is

    6 where they stood too, the five of them.

    7 Q. So that's where you collected the five?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Now, on the way back from Ovcara, you said

    10 that they didn't discuss Mr. Dokmanovic. Did they

    11 discuss anybody else that was there at Ovcara that day,

    12 that is the people you picked up?

    13 A. They were just saying that it was very

    14 difficult, and they were saying whom they had

    15 recognised, and they just mentioned that they

    16 recognised Zoric who got them out.

    17 Q. I see. So that's the only person they

    18 discussed that you can remember?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Now, when you were at Ovcara, did you see any

    21 vehicles about, and if so, can you describe what you

    22 saw?

    23 A. Buses.

    24 Q. Where were the buses parked?

    25 A. On the road.

  33. 1 Q. And were the buses between your vehicle and

    2 the entrance to the Ovcara hangar?

    3 A. The buses were parked on the road in front of

    4 the hangar.

    5 Q. Did you see any agricultural equipment, such

    6 as bulldozers or earth-moving equipment there at the

    7 time?

    8 A. No, no.

    9 Q. Did you recognise any of the soldiers that

    10 were there?

    11 A. It was getting dark. I didn't.

    12 Q. Now, how long did you stay at Ovcara in all;

    13 can you remember?

    14 A. I don't know. Around 15 minutes, perhaps.

    15 Q. Now, is the situation this: That you merely

    16 parked your vehicle, walked over and collected the five

    17 people that were waiting in front of the hangar, and

    18 went back to your vehicle and then drove off to


    20 A. Yes.

    21 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions, Your

    22 Honour.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Fila? No

    24 questions?

    25 I assume there is no objection to the witness

  34. 1 Bakic being released?

    2 Mr. Bakic, thank you for giving evidence.

    3 You may be released.

    4 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

    5 (The witness withdrew)

    6 MR. FILA: Your Honour, now we're going to

    7 see who the next witness is. I have no idea, really.

    8 Are we going to take a break at 11.00?

    9 Stanimirovic. Mr. Bos, could you please call

    10 Mr. Stanimirovic? He is short. So I can finish with

    11 Mr. Stanimirovic without interfering with the cross.

    12 Vodicka, if he is there.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Bos, could you please

    14 tell us the name of the witness?

    15 MR. BOS: Witness Stanimirovic.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Stanimirovic,

    17 could you please stand up and read the formal

    18 declaration?

    19 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    20 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    21 truth.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Fila?


    24 Examined by Mr. Fila

    25 Q. Mr. Stanimirovic, did you talk to an

  35. 1 investigator from my office, Miroslav Vasic, and did

    2 you give him the statement that will be shown to you

    3 right now, and do you recognise your signature?

    4 A. Yes, I gave a statement. Let me just take a

    5 look. This is my signature.

    6 MR. FILA: If there are no objections, I

    7 suggest that this statement be admitted into evidence

    8 as D103, and the English version is 103A or B,

    9 whatever.

    10 MR. WILLIAMSON: No objection.

    11 MR. FILA:

    12 Q. Mr. Stanimirovic, you completed medical

    13 school when and where?

    14 A. Yes, that's right.

    15 Q. When and where?

    16 A. I graduated from the Faculty of Medicine in

    17 Belgrade in 1978.

    18 Q. Where were you employed in 1991?

    19 A. I worked throughout my career in Vukovar and,

    20 in 1991, I was employed at the Vukovar Hospital as head

    21 of ward of psychiatry. I was a psychiatrist.

    22 Q. What was the situation like in Vukovar after

    23 the SDP of (translation unclear) won the elections?

    24 We're talking about the period of 1991 when the first

    25 multi-party elections were held. What was the

  36. 1 situation like?

    2 A. The SDP won and the situation was terrible

    3 because the HDZ took every kind of initiative and Serbs

    4 who were directors of various enterprises were replaced

    5 en masse.

    6 Q. Was there a replacement also at the Vukovar

    7 Hospital?

    8 A. Yes, there was a replacement at the Vukovar

    9 Hospital too. This happened on the 25th of July,

    10 1991. I personally know of this case because I was

    11 President of the Workers' Council then of the medical

    12 centre in Vukovar.

    13 Q. Why was the director replaced? Because of

    14 his ethnic background or for some other reason?

    15 A. I think he was replaced only because of his

    16 ethnic background. This man was director for 16

    17 years. He's a Serb -- a Montenegrin to be very

    18 precise. He was replaced by a decree issued by the

    19 Ministry of Health of the Republic of Croatia, by

    20 Minister Hebrang, and Dr. Vesna Bosanac was

    21 appointed acting director.

    22 Q. This Minister Hebrang, who is now the

    23 Minister of Military Affairs?

    24 A. Yes, that's right.

    25 Q. You left Vukovar sometime in July 1991.

  37. 1 Could you tell us why you did this?

    2 A. You see, I first left Vukovar on the 28th of

    3 June because I was constantly under pressure. I was

    4 receiving telephone calls, my car was stopped two or

    5 three times at a time when I was driving through town,

    6 so I wanted to take a vacation and I was hoping that

    7 the situation would get more peaceful, but this was not

    8 the case. The director, until then, Rade

    9 Popovic, who was director of the hospital, he called me

    10 to Belgrade to come there because I was President of

    11 the Workers' Council, and he told me that he was

    12 replaced by a decree and that we should have a

    13 meeting. He said that Mercep, and the people who were

    14 running the city at that point, were not touching

    15 doctors and that they wouldn't do anything, so I

    16 believed his words and I returned on the 24th of July,

    17 in the evening, I came back to Vukovar.

    18 The next day, the 25th, we held this meeting

    19 of the Workers' Council, we read this decree, and that

    20 Workers' Council appointed Dr. Vesna Bosanac

    21 acting director of the hospital. And on that day, as I

    22 returned home, a synchronised action continued. I was

    23 arrested in Vukovar in my apartment and in my family

    24 home 25 kilometres away from Vukovar. This happened on

    25 the 25th, approximately around 2.30 p.m.

  38. 1 Q. What was the reason for your arrest?

    2 A. The reason mentioned for my arrest was that I

    3 was in Yugoslavia and that I took part in organising

    4 the uprising, that they knew that I had weapons,

    5 et cetera. However, both searches of my mother's house

    6 and of the apartment showed that all of that was

    7 untrue. They did not find weapons anywhere except for

    8 my pistol, and I had a proper licence for that, and I

    9 showed it to them and they took it away from me.

    10 After that, they took me to the police

    11 station, nevertheless, in Vukovar, where again they

    12 interrogated me, what I was doing in Yugoslavia and why

    13 did I leave in June, did I know anything about the

    14 armament of the Serbs, et cetera.

    15 On that evening I was released at the

    16 intervention of my wife, and some Croats. I imagine

    17 who they were, but I don't know for sure until this

    18 very day, but they intervened to have me released from

    19 custody, and that is what happened. That evening I

    20 spent the night at my neighbour's home, I didn't dare

    21 spend the night at my own home, in my own apartment,

    22 but there's another thing I didn't mention. When my

    23 apartment was being searched, the ZNG practically

    24 devastated my mother's house in the village. They

    25 broke all the window glasses. They shot at barrels in

  39. 1 the basement, in the cellar, where wine and brandy was,

    2 so all of it flew out of the barrels. I forgot to

    3 mention that.

    4 At the police station, after two

    5 interrogations, I was advised to leave Vukovar. And

    6 that evening, as I said, I spent the night at my

    7 neighbour's, and the next day I tried to leave Vukovar,

    8 my wife and I tried, without any luggage. We only had

    9 our personal documents. However, we did not succeed in

    10 doing so because there were barricades at the exit out

    11 of Vukovar, so we were taken back to the defence

    12 building where practically Mr. Mercep and his deputy,

    13 Josip Gazo, were issuing certain certificates or

    14 ausweiss. My wife and I were waiting in a

    15 queue to get these papers with which we could get out

    16 of town.

    17 I didn't dare go towards my village. I went

    18 to Ilok and I crossed the bridge and went to

    19 Yugoslavia.

    20 Q. Let me ask you something else. What was

    21 Mercep, who was this person, Tomislav Mercep?

    22 A. You see, for me he was anonymous person. I

    23 had never heard of this man until then, but afterwards

    24 he was the head commander of the city. His role was

    25 far more important than that of the police itself,

  40. 1 which did exist there. Perhaps it was fortunate for

    2 me, when I was arrested, that the police took me in

    3 rather than the ZNG, the National Guards Corps, of

    4 Mr. Mercep. These were newly established units, units

    5 from the Territorial Defence, probably, they were armed

    6 and they were the real power in town. Very often they

    7 would take cars without any justification, they would

    8 change licence plates, and no one was held accountable

    9 to anyone.

    10 Q. In addition to yourself, were other Serbs

    11 also exposed to that kind of mistreatment like you

    12 were?

    13 A. Yes. This happened to all eminent Serbs.

    14 That day when I was arrested, my head technician from

    15 my ward, his name is Salvo Domanovic (phoen), he was

    16 working the third night shift in the hospital, the

    17 psychiatry ward, and practically at midnight, at 12.30

    18 a.m. on the 26th, he was taken away from his job at the

    19 hospital where he left some 30 patients unprotected.

    20 He was taken to his apartment, we think, and his

    21 apartment was searched, and all trace was lost of him

    22 that day. He was never found until the present day,

    23 not even his corpse. And his wife and two children are

    24 still in Vukovar.

    25 Q. Were there any cases that Serb shops were

  41. 1 looted, burned, that Serbs were beaten up?

    2 A. There were cases of this kind until the 2nd

    3 of May. We must point out that until the 2nd of May,

    4 until Borovo Selo had happened, not a single Croat had

    5 been harmed in Vukovar, but Serb houses, Serb shops,

    6 Serb stores, were mined, torched, and I think on the

    7 2nd of May that there were a few murders too. Some

    8 other people too, I don't know -- I don't know the

    9 names of these people.

    10 Q. Can we say that in addition to you, other

    11 eminent Serbs were also leaving Vukovar?

    12 A. Yes, most of the eminent Serbs were leaving

    13 Vukovar.

    14 Q. What percentage could we say? What

    15 percentage of the Serb population was leaving Vukovar?

    16 A. A large percentage of the Serb population was

    17 leaving Vukovar because in Vukovar, it was mostly the

    18 elderly people that remained, that is those who were

    19 destitute and unprotected. There are very few

    20 intellectuals in Vukovar. I can say that in our

    21 hospital, out of 30 doctors only four Serb doctors

    22 remained.

    23 Q. It is being said here that there was no

    24 reason for you to leave, that Serbs were having a

    25 wonderful time, a fantastic time there. We have heard

  42. 1 from various doctors that they didn't understand why

    2 the director of the Vukovar Hospital was replaced. It

    3 is being claimed that you did not have a single reason

    4 to leave Vukovar. It is even being claimed that you

    5 did not leave Vukovar, that the majority stayed, and

    6 that they were saying that you were going to football

    7 games in Belgrade and that that was later portrayed as

    8 a departure, to a departure. Is that true?

    9 A. No, that is not true. I already said that

    10 out of the 30 doctors that were employed that only four

    11 Serb doctors remained, so we are not talking about

    12 soccer games. The very fact that I was brought into

    13 custody, arrested, that I was interrogated and that I

    14 was advised in the police station itself that the

    15 wisest thing for me to be -- to do would be to leave

    16 Vukovar. What they did at my mother's house speaks for

    17 itself.

    18 Q. Is that what they did to the Croats? Was it

    19 the Croat police who told you that?

    20 A. The Croat police brought me in for

    21 questioning, but the ZNG did this to my mother's house.

    22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters can't hear

    23 what is being said.

    24 A. Croatian units.

    25 Q. When did you come back to Vukovar?

  43. 1 A. Before that.

    2 Q. Did you know Slavko Dokmanovic in the period

    3 before you left?

    4 A. Yes, I knew him superficially, not too well,

    5 because I was not really involved in politics before

    6 the war, but I knew him.

    7 Q. Do you know, perhaps, whether he left Vukovar

    8 before you did or not? If you don't know, never mind.

    9 A. Yes. Slavko Dokmanovic, because of various

    10 pressures and closing the entrance into Vukovar at the

    11 Trpinja road, I think he left Vukovar already in May

    12 and June, but I'm not familiar with the details.

    13 Q. All right. When did you go back to Vukovar?

    14 A. You see, I was coming to Vukovar because I

    15 was in charge of the medical corps, but I came back on

    16 the 20th of November in the afternoon.

    17 Q. Did somebody appoint you civilian director

    18 for the renewal of the hospital, and who was that?

    19 A. Yes. There was a military director and then

    20 they appointed me the director for renewal of the

    21 hospital. I only dealt in the restoration of the

    22 hospital exclusively. I wasn't involved in medical

    23 affairs or personnel or anything like that. I didn't

    24 have any jurisdiction in that field.

    25 Q. In this period, until the 20th of November,

  44. 1 1991, a few days before that and after that, is it true

    2 to say that there was military administration in

    3 Vukovar?

    4 A. Oh, yes, yes. There was certainly military

    5 administration in our hospital. In our hospital that

    6 was the case until the 20th of May, 1992.

    7 Q. And in the town of Vukovar itself there were

    8 military administration?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. How many approximately in the town of Vukovar

    11 itself?

    12 A. It was certainly until the end of the year or

    13 the end of December, the beginning of January. I don't

    14 know exactly.

    15 Q. Can you recall when the first civilian

    16 authority was established on the territory of the

    17 Municipality of Vukovar?

    18 A. Well, I think -- I think this was also at the

    19 end of December, the end of the month of December. I

    20 can't tell exactly.

    21 Q. In this period, after the December 1992, did

    22 you have certain authority? Were you president of the

    23 Municipality of Vukovar or something like that?

    24 A. I personally?

    25 Q. Yes, you personally.

  45. 1 A. I was President of the Municipality.

    2 Q. From when until when?

    3 A. For a short period of time until the

    4 elections that were held, the multi-party elections, in

    5 the former Republic of Srpska Krajina. I think this

    6 was the end of 1993 and the beginning of 1994.

    7 Q. And who was elected as President of the

    8 Municipality at those elections in 1994?

    9 A. At that time the Radicals won the elections,

    10 and I think that the Radical Party appointed

    11 Mr. Ljubomir Vukicevic, I think that was his name, from

    12 Brsadin.

    13 Q. And when he was replaced, who came then?

    14 A. After he was replaced, Slavko Dokmanovic was

    15 appointed. This was actually a coalition of the

    16 Serbian Democratic Party, the Socialist Party, and they

    17 actually replaced Mr. Vukicevic, and Slavko Dokmanovic

    18 was appointed.

    19 Q. What political post do you hold now in

    20 Vukovar and in the Croatian parliament, et cetera?

    21 A. Well, let me tell you about this. During the

    22 elections and during the time of Mr. Klein I was the

    23 founder of the Independent Serb Party in Croatia and I

    24 was President of that party and this party was

    25 registered in Croatia. And this party took part in the

  46. 1 elections, in the UNTAES period, that is to say during

    2 Mr. Klein's time, the time of reintegration. And after

    3 that, as party leader, I was proposed by the President

    4 of the Republic to be a member of parliament in the

    5 Zupanijski Dom, the lower house, as it is called.

    6 Q. And practically now you are a member of the

    7 Croatian parliament and you are president of this party

    8 that you mention and you live in Vukovar?

    9 A. Yes, I live in Vukovar with my family and a

    10 son of mine is studying in Belgrade now.

    11 Q. Can you tell us approximately in Vukovar, in

    12 1990-91, how many Serbs were there in Vukovar and how

    13 many Serbs are there now?

    14 A. I am not very -- are you interested only in

    15 Vukovar?

    16 Q. Vukovar and Croatia as a whole, the

    17 Municipality of Vukovar and Croatia as a whole?

    18 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I would object

    19 to what the current population is. If he wants to talk

    20 about the population in 1990 and 1991, which is

    21 relevant to the case, that's fine, but to get into the

    22 population and statistics in 1998 I think has no

    23 relevance to our proceedings.

    24 MR. FILA: Your Honour, the expert witness of

    25 the Prosecution, Mr. Wheeler, I think spoke about the

  47. 1 population migration from medieval times onwards and he

    2 answered questions as to the Serb population now. It

    3 is relevant to determine how many there were in 1990

    4 and then the movements up to the present day. This is

    5 highly relevant so that we can see the situation as it

    6 stands. I have no idea of accusing anybody for this,

    7 but just to see the figures, what the figures were and

    8 what they are today.

    9 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, if I might just

    10 respond very briefly to that? Mr. Wheeler did answer

    11 questions on those issues, but those were put to him by

    12 Mr. Fila. We did not ask any questions about the

    13 period starting from 1945 onward, and all of the

    14 questions pertaining to population from medieval

    15 periods and in the current times came from Mr. Fila, so

    16 he is the one that introduced the issue at that time.

    17 MR. FILA: On the basis of the written report

    18 by Mr. Wheeler. I said something about that in my

    19 introduction, and that is why I wanted these additional

    20 explanations. So how many Serbs in 1990 on Croatian

    21 territory existed and in Vukovar.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: The court feels that the

    23 question is not relevant, the question about the

    24 population, breakdown of the population --

    25 MR. FILA: The composition of the population

  48. 1 in 1990 and 1991, that was an important question, and

    2 Mr. Williamson asked one of the directors, Witness D,

    3 who is not an expert in that matter at all, but he is a

    4 politician and can therefore answer the question.

    5 Q. What was the relationship of the population

    6 structure in 1990 and 1991, until the end of the UNTAES

    7 period? You don't have to speak about the present

    8 day.

    9 A. May I answer that now then?

    10 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, again, the

    11 objection, he is -- we have no objection to questions

    12 about 1990 and 1991, but then he adds this on about the

    13 end of the UNTAES period, which is January of 1997, so

    14 again -- I mean, we feel that there's no relevance

    15 whatsoever in these issues. If he limits it to 1990,

    16 1991, we have no objection.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes --

    18 MR. FILA: Very well then. 1990 to the end

    19 of 1991.

    20 A. Yes. Can I answer?

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.

    22 Q. Yes, 1990 to the end of 1991?

    23 A. 1990 to 1991.

    24 THE INTERPRETER: No tone.

    25 A. The town of Vukovar had about 35.000 --

  49. 1 Vukovar had 42.000 inhabitants and there were about 17

    2 and a half thousand Serbs and a large number of

    3 Yugoslavs, people who had declared themselves as

    4 Yugoslavs. If you look at this percentage-wise, this

    5 is 37 percent Serbs and about 17 percent were the

    6 Yugoslavs. As far as the town of Vukovar proper is

    7 concerned, but according to my information in the

    8 Municipality of Vukovar itself, there are about 45

    9 percent of the Serb population and about 15 percent of

    10 individuals who had declared themselves as Yugoslavs

    11 and many of them too were ethnic Serbs.

    12 Q. In the course -- since you left Vukovar, has

    13 that number been reduced in Vukovar and how many? That

    14 is since 1992, November, the end of November.

    15 A. Yes, the number dropped drastically. I think

    16 that in Vukovar, of that 17 and a half thousand Serbs

    17 who lived there, I don't think that there were more

    18 than five or six thousand.

    19 Q. Why did they leave? May we repeat this once

    20 again?

    21 A. They left because of continuous incidents and

    22 pressure exerted on them. They were in great fear

    23 because before their eyes they saw how Serbian cafes

    24 and houses were shelled and blown up and they felt that

    25 they were not protected and decided to leave the town.

  50. 1 Q. At the end of 1991, after November 1991, did

    2 they all return or did a part of them return?

    3 A. A portion returned. The other part never

    4 returned. It is difficult to say.

    5 Q. Can you tell us something about Slavko

    6 Dokmanovic and himself as a man, as a personality, as a

    7 character? You got to know him, you worked with him,

    8 probably fairly superficially, but can you tell us

    9 something of his character? Can he be considered an

    10 extreme Serb nationalist?

    11 A. As far as I knew him, he was a very tolerant

    12 man, a very moderate man, and I think they cooperated a

    13 fair amount with the Serbs and Croats in Vukovar. And

    14 he was elected at the time as president of the

    15 municipality, not because he was an extremist Serb

    16 nationalist but because he was a moderate man who was

    17 able to communicate with people. And as he belonged to

    18 the moderate stream, I'm sure that a portion of the

    19 Croats voted for him as well.

    20 Q. Can we say that he was a quiet, calm man, you

    21 know, the respect he wielded in the environment in

    22 which he lived?

    23 A. He was a family man, he was a prominent man,

    24 he was president of the municipality before these

    25 events and during the events, so he was a

  51. 1 well-respected man with the population, both the Serb

    2 and the Croat population.

    3 Q. Was he respected by the extremist Serbs or

    4 the moderate Serbs?

    5 A. Well, I don't think we can say -- talk about

    6 this. We can't say that everybody, all the Serbs,

    7 extremists, otherwise there would be no point in

    8 talking about this. There were a small number of Serbs

    9 that were extremists as there were a small number of

    10 Croats that were.

    11 Q. Was he respected by them or was he respected

    12 by the majority of moderate Serbs?

    13 A. No, the moderate Serbs, the majority.

    14 Q. And with the Croats?

    15 A. Yes, I think he was respected by the moderate

    16 Croats as well, as far as I knew him, because he was a

    17 politician and he did cooperate with people well and

    18 with the Croats as well.

    19 Q. If I were to tell you that he was accused of

    20 killing some 200 peoples in Ovcara, would you believe

    21 this?

    22 A. No, I would not believe that.

    23 MR. FILA: Thank you. I have no further

    24 questions.

    25 Your Honours, I apologise for taking up five

  52. 1 more minutes of your time than I had stipulated.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Does the Prosecutor intend to

    3 ask many questions? You would prefer now to have a

    4 break now?

    5 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I think that

    6 would be probably better, yes.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: We will take a 20-minute

    8 break.

    9 --- Recess taken at 11.07 a.m.

    10 --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.

    11 (The accused entered court)

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila?

    13 MR. FILA: Your Honour, the witness that

    14 we're going to hear after Mr. Stanimirovic, when the

    15 Prosecution completes its cross-examination, the

    16 witness has asked for image distortion. We can't do it

    17 here, so I should like to ask you for a closed session

    18 and then that will be equivalent to the image

    19 distortion. Thank you.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. If there's no

    21 objection, there will be a closed session.

    22 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, we probably

    23 would not have any objection, but we're not aware of

    24 who this witness is. Is it the next witness that is

    25 listed? Is it the witness listed as No. 3? Is that

  53. 1 correct or ... For the video link conference?

    2 MR. FILA: It is an additional witness for

    3 which we sought the court's agreement. It is a witness

    4 for Mr. Dokmanovic's character, a character witness.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. All right.

    6 MR. FILA: We have the witness statement.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Yes.

    8 Mr. Williamson?

    9 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, if we may have

    10 just one moment?

    11 Your Honour, I apologise for the brief

    12 delay.

    13 Cross-examined by Mr. Williamson

    14 Q. Dr. Stanimirovic, now, the party that you

    15 were affiliated with in 1991 was the Serb Democratic

    16 Party; is that correct?

    17 A. Yes, that is correct.

    18 Q. So this was not the party of democratic

    19 change with which Mr. Dokmanovic was associated.

    20 A. No.

    21 Q. And was the Serb Democratic Party advocating

    22 autonomy and separatism for Serbs in Croatia at that

    23 time?

    24 A. The Serbian Democratic Party did not have the

    25 possibility of becoming registered in Vukovar due to

  54. 1 certain obstructions, and the Serbs, via that party,

    2 did not take part in Vukovar and the environs at the

    3 elections. The protagonist and leader of the SDP,

    4 Professor Raskovic, advocated a cultural autonomy of

    5 the Serbs, and in the programme itself and the statute

    6 of the Serbian Democratic Party, no separation is

    7 mentioned.

    8 Q. Would it be fair to say that the Serb

    9 Democratic Party was viewed by Croats as being very

    10 radical, much in the same light that Serbs viewed the

    11 Croatian Democratic Union?

    12 A. I think the answer to that is yes, we could

    13 say that in that direction because the party later on,

    14 when the incidents began to break out, it perhaps

    15 deviated from its programme. There was a little more

    16 radicalism than was inherent in the programme and as

    17 was Professor Raskovic's intention in the beginning.

    18 Q. And, in fact, after Professor Raskovic died,

    19 the party changed altogether, wouldn't you say?

    20 A. Professor Raskovic died later on, in 1993,

    21 and everything had happened until that time. All the

    22 events linked to Vukovar and the other parts of the

    23 area.

    24 Q. And in the meantime, the leadership of the

    25 party had been taken over by other persons; is that

  55. 1 correct?

    2 A. Yes, that is correct.

    3 Q. Now, in your statement that you provided to

    4 the Defence, you indicated that approximately 30.000

    5 persons left Vukovar in 1991 and that most of these

    6 were Serbs; is that your recollection?

    7 A. Of the total number.

    8 THE INTERPRETER: I'm afraid we can't hear

    9 this part. The speech is interrupted.

    10 A. Yes, I think about 30.000 people left Vukovar

    11 before the fighting, the battles that took place before

    12 Vukovar, mostly Serbs.

    13 THE INTERPRETER: We heard the last part.

    14 Mostly Serbs.

    15 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, perhaps we can

    16 just test it out and see if they're receiving and we

    17 are, and if so, then I'll proceed, but if not, then

    18 perhaps we need some technical help.

    19 Q. Is it possible for you to hear everything

    20 that I'm saying there, in Belgrade?

    21 THE INTERPRETER: We can't hear the witness,

    22 his speech is interrupted.

    23 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I'm aware that

    24 a lot of times when we are going through these V-SAT

    25 communications to Belgrade and Zagreb, there are

  56. 1 temporary interruptions, so this may be a momentary

    2 thing when the satellite is out of place.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: It will take two minutes, I

    4 understand, so let us wait here.


    6 Q. Dr. Stanimirovic, I believe when we left off,

    7 I'm not sure you were able to hear everything I said

    8 and we were unable to get all of your responses, so

    9 perhaps I will repeat a little bit of it.

    10 Now, you had indicated that approximately

    11 30.000 people left Vukovar prior to the fighting

    12 starting, and that the majority of those people were

    13 Serbs; is that correct?

    14 A. Yes, that is correct. I said that in my

    15 statement and I now confirm that.

    16 Q. Now, according to the 1991 census, the

    17 population of Vukovar was 44.639 persons. Is that

    18 correct?

    19 A. Possibly. I think that there were 42 and a

    20 half thousand, but probably the 44.000 figure you

    21 mentioned is correct.

    22 Q. And under that same census, it indicated that

    23 there were 14.425 Serbs and 4.355 Yugoslavs, so

    24 approximately 18 to 19.000 Serbs and Yugoslavs put

    25 together.

  57. 1 A. I don't think I can agree with that. I have

    2 quite different data than the figure you quoted, 37

    3 percent were Serbs and 17 percent were Yugoslavs.

    4 Those are the figures, official figures, that we have.

    5 Q. I don't have these figures in front of me so

    6 it's somewhat difficult for me to check that. But

    7 you're indicating that 37 percent were Serbs, 17

    8 percent were Yugoslavs, and as I understand your

    9 contention --

    10 A. Yes, that's right.

    11 Q. -- that almost all of the Yugoslavs were

    12 Serbs; correct?

    13 A. No, I did not say this. I said that the

    14 majority of the Yugoslavs were Serbs because people

    15 under certain pressure linked to what was going on, to

    16 cover up their nationality, declared themselves Serbs.

    17 I did not say everybody but I said the majority and

    18 that's the difference.

    19 Q. Now, your figure, though, that you say that

    20 the majority of people that left were Serbs, even

    21 assuming that your figures are correct, which, as I

    22 say, don't necessarily agree with the figures that I

    23 have given you, but that would be a total of 54 percent

    24 of the population, so around 21.000 people. Now, you

    25 said that about 30.000 people left, so wouldn't that

  58. 1 seem to indicate that a significant number of Croats

    2 also left Vukovar during this period?

    3 A. Yes, that is also correct. A portion of the

    4 Croats left Vukovar in that period. I did not say that

    5 that was not correct, I said the majority. But 30.000

    6 were Serbs.

    7 Q. Thirty thousand were Serbs?

    8 MR. FILA: Objection. You have asked him

    9 this for the fifth time, the same thing. The witness

    10 never said that 30.000 Serbs left, there were 30.000

    11 people who had left. Of that number, the majority were

    12 Serbs. That's what the witness said on several

    13 occasions. I don't know why this is relevant, but that

    14 is that.

    15 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, if I might?

    16 The reason that I have repeated the question, as I

    17 said, because we were interrupted with the break, and I

    18 wanted to make sure that all of the witness's

    19 statements were put on the record. I'm reading the

    20 transcript right here, this was going to be my last

    21 question, and then he said, "But 30.000 were Serbs."

    22 I'm just trying to clarify that.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. You may proceed, yes.


    25 Q. Dr. Stanimirovic, are you saying that 30.000

  59. 1 were Serbs, or that 30.000 people left and that the

    2 majority were Serbs?

    3 A. In the statement and the minutes, it says

    4 that in '91, about 30.000 inhabitants left Vukovar. Of

    5 that number, the majority were Serbs. That is clearly

    6 stated and in the statement today. I did not say that

    7 30.000 were Serbs on any occasion, at any point.

    8 Q. Perhaps that was a mistranslation, but I'm

    9 glad that we've cleared that up now.

    10 At this time I would like for you to look at

    11 Prosecutor's Exhibit 188, if you would, please?

    12 MR. BOS: The witness has Exhibit 188 in

    13 front of him.


    15 Q. Mr. Stanimirovic, do you recognise this as

    16 being the population statistics for the entire

    17 Municipality of Vukovar?

    18 A. Yes. 84.189 of the population census in 1991

    19 existed in Vukovar, yes, that is probably the correct

    20 figure.

    21 Q. Now, all the way over to the right it

    22 indicates a figure of about 6.124 Yugoslavs; correct?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Now, that would be for the entire

    25 Municipality of Vukovar. But looking at the figure of

  60. 1 6.000, that would already be less than 17 percent of

    2 the entire population of Vukovar city, would it not?

    3 A. It's difficult to say in percentages. I know

    4 the facts and figures that we have even now and that we

    5 put forward to the international community regardless

    6 of the facts and figures that were written down in 1991

    7 because we had earlier population censuses as well. If

    8 you look at the year 1981, you will see that there were

    9 17.000 Yugoslavs at the time, so how come in 1991 that

    10 there were 6.000? Were are the other 11.000

    11 Yugoslavs?

    12 Q. Well, I think, Doctor, if you look at that,

    13 there were also 4.699 in 1971, so might that increase

    14 of approximately 12.000 be attributed to this Yugoslav

    15 enthusiasm and nostalgia, after the death of Tito?

    16 A. I don't know that we can say that.

    17 Q. Well, let's look at it, if you go all the way

    18 over to the left on that and you will see that between

    19 1971 and 1981, there is an increase in the total

    20 population of Vukovar municipality, correct, of about

    21 5.000 people, from 76.000 to 81.000?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Now, at the same time, the number of Croats

    24 decreases by about 4.000 people, does it not, from

    25 34.000 to 30.000.

  61. 1 A. Yes, that's exact. That's right.

    2 Q. And the number of Serbs decreases from

    3 28.000 to 25.000. So a decrease of about 3.000.

    4 A. Yes, that's right.

    5 Q. And in the same period, the number of

    6 Yugoslavs increases by about 12.000. So wouldn't it

    7 seem to indicate that both Croats and Serbs declared

    8 themselves Yugoslavs during this period since the

    9 entire population increased, and that, in fact, perhaps

    10 more Croats declared themselves as Yugoslavs than did

    11 Serbs?

    12 A. I can't say because, if you look at these

    13 figures, you will see that the number of Croats drops

    14 by about four and a half thousand, the number of Serbs

    15 drops by about three and a half thousand. That is

    16 8.000 in all. And you can see that the difference

    17 between 4.000 and 17.000, 11.000, so we still have

    18 3.000 people lost somewhere in these figures. We can't

    19 say that more Croats declared themselves as Yugoslavs,

    20 but quite the contrary.

    21 Q. Well, I mean, we can go through the figures

    22 for all of the different ethnic groups. I didn't want

    23 to actually do that. But I think you will see drops in

    24 the numbers of Ruthenes, the numbers of Hungarians, all

    25 of the groups reduce in population, and the only one

  62. 1 that increases is Yugoslavs, and the total number of

    2 people in the municipality increases, so wouldn't this

    3 seem to indicate that people from all ethnic groups

    4 declared themselves as Yugoslavs in 1981, and then in

    5 1991, as the population of the municipality again

    6 continues to grow, the number of Yugoslavs drops but

    7 the numbers of all the ethnic groups again go up?

    8 A. Yes. There was a national division in 1991,

    9 so that most probably some of the Croats who previously

    10 declared themselves as Yugoslavs in 1981, in 1991

    11 declared themselves as Croats. The question is how

    12 much in this Serb euphoria who declared themselves as

    13 Yugoslavs were able to say that they were Serbs. This

    14 is a dilemma before which we stand.

    15 Q. Well, the number of Serbs also increased by

    16 6.000 at that time, did it not? So that would again

    17 seem to indicate that the Yugoslavs had declared

    18 themselves as Serbs again as well, not just Croats?

    19 That's my last question on that --

    20 MR. FILA: Your Honour, why does the

    21 Prosecution not bring a democratic (sic)

    22 representative? There is a statistics office in Zagreb

    23 and in Serbia and they will be able to explain this to

    24 us, a demographic representative. I don't where this

    25 is leading us. I am raising a question of relevance.

  63. 1 MR. WILLIAMSON: If I might reply to that?

    2 Again, Mr. Fila asked this man the question and said,

    3 our last person was not qualified to do it but this man

    4 is qualified to do it, he's a politician, he knows the

    5 statistics. Mr. Fila himself has stood up from the bar

    6 table on several occasions and has declared that all

    7 Yugoslavs were Serbs. Now, unfortunately we can't

    8 cross-examine Mr. Fila --

    9 MR. FILA: I never said that.

    10 MR. WILLIAMSON: We should be able to

    11 cross-examine him when he is putting forward the

    12 statistics and the beliefs.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: On the other hand, you have

    14 put quite a few questions on statistical --

    15 MR. FILA: Your Honour, Mr. Fila never said

    16 that all Yugoslavs were Serbs. For example, I declared

    17 myself as a Yugoslav and you know full well that I am

    18 of Greek origin, so it is not true that all Slavs were

    19 Yugoslavs nor that all Yugoslavs declared themselves as

    20 Serbs. I never said that. Don't quote me incorrectly,

    21 please.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: I should say that by and

    23 large we regard all these questions as of very little

    24 material, almost no material at all to our questions.

    25 I mean, we are dealing with some specific facts and the

  64. 1 applicable law, not with the statistics, the population

    2 increases and decreases and so on. Please, let us move

    3 on to other questions that are more relevant.


    5 Q. Mr. Stanimirovic, you indicated that you

    6 became mayor of Vukovar after the events of November of

    7 1991, at some point in '92 you became President of the

    8 Municipality; is that correct?

    9 A. No, that is not correct. This was at the end

    10 of 1993, before the multi-party elections that were

    11 held in the republic of Srpska Krajina, after the

    12 victory at these multi-party elections where the

    13 Radical Party won, then their representatives appointed

    14 their President of the Municipality.

    15 Q. I'm not clear. When did you serve as

    16 President of the Municipality?

    17 A. Before the multi-party elections that were

    18 held at the end of 1993, I was president practically

    19 until the beginning of January 1994, a total of three

    20 or four months altogether. After the multi-party

    21 elections, the Radical Party won a majority in Vukovar,

    22 and they appointed their President, Ljubomir Vukicevic.

    23 Q. So it was only in the interim period at the

    24 end of 1993 and the beginning of 1994; is that correct?

    25 A. That's right, that's right, exactly, that is

  65. 1 correct.

    2 Q. Do you know a man named Caslav Niksic?

    3 A. Yes, I do.

    4 Q. Now, he is the individual that was sent by

    5 your administration to be the official Serb observer at

    6 the Ovcara exhumation in 1996, was he not?

    7 A. Yes, that is correct. But the Croatian

    8 commission did not accept him.

    9 Q. I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about

    10 during the --

    11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters can't hear the

    12 witness, I'm sorry.

    13 MR. WILLIAMSON: I don't know if we've lost

    14 the connection or perhaps I spoke over him. I'm not

    15 sure. I'll try again.

    16 Q. Now, I'm not talking about in the period near

    17 the end of UNTAES, I'm talking about during the Ovcara

    18 exhumation, he was there and he was present at Ovcara

    19 for some period of time, wasn't he?

    20 A. Yes, that is correct, yes.

    21 Q. Are you aware of an incident on the 11th of

    22 September of 1996 in which Mr. Niksic tried to bribe

    23 the Jordanian security patrol to gain access to the

    24 Ovcara site after the tribunal investigators and

    25 forensic experts had left for the day?

  66. 1 A. Mr. Klein told me that because I cooperated

    2 with him, but afterwards, when I talked to Mr. Niksic,

    3 he denied this completely and that there was no reason

    4 for him to go on his own to Ovcara. He said that he

    5 went to get the hub cap of his car or something.

    6 MR. FILA: Your Honour, I have an objection

    7 once again. It is irrelevant, or should I now ask

    8 Mr. Stanimirovic how many Serbs there were at that time

    9 when Caslav Niksic was bribing Jordanian soldiers or

    10 whatnot.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: The objection is sustained.

    12 After consulting my colleagues, I was going to ask the

    13 Prosecutor to refrain from asking these questions which

    14 are not material to our issues.

    15 MR. WILLIAMSON: Very well, Your Honours. I

    16 have no further questions.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Fila?

    18 MR. FILA: I have no questions. Please,

    19 could we just have a closed hearing now so that the

    20 next witness could be heard behind closed doors and

    21 could this witness be marked as DD and I am going to

    22 tell you which witness this is or rather show you which

    23 witness this is.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Sorry to interrupt you, but I

    25 should like to thank the witness for testifying. You

  67. 1 may now be released. Thank you.

    2 So we will move on to our next witness, it

    3 will be in closed session.

    4 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.

    5 (The Witness withdrew)

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: I understand we may now

    7 proceed in closed session.

    8 (In closed session)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

  68. 1












    13 Pages 3035 to 3044 redacted - in closed session













  1. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (The Witness withdrew)

    16 THE WITNESS: Thank you too.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: I wonder whether we may now

    18 move to the open session?

    19 MR. FILA: Yes.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: With the next witness.

    21 MR. FILA: The only problem, Your Honour, is

    22 that I don't know who the next witness is. We'll see

    23 who turns up.

    24 I would like to ask for a witness to be

    25 brought tomorrow in the video link, his name is Milos

  2. 1 Vojnovic. He's the former President of the Court in

    2 Vukovar and we came by him this morning. He would

    3 testify instead of Mr. Gradina, who doesn't seem to be

    4 there. So if you would allow this witness to take part

    5 in the video link tomorrow. He has not been put

    6 forward. So far we haven't got the statement. If

    7 Mr. Gradina turns up, well and good. If not, we would

    8 like to have this other witness who was the President

    9 of the Court in Vukovar in 1991.

    10 We have some problems in bringing these

    11 people, and the witnesses on the video link had some

    12 problems, and he told this story to the others and now

    13 everybody seems to be afraid to come forward.

    14 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, if I might?

    15 Could Mr. Fila repeat the name of the witness again,

    16 and also we would like to have some notice as to the

    17 nature of his testimony. If a statement is not

    18 available, at least a summary of what he will testify

    19 as to.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.

    21 MR. FILA: Yes, I'll be happy to do so.

    22 Vojnovic, Milos, he is the former President of the

    23 Court in Vukovar, and he will be testifying as to the

    24 circumstances in Vukovar until he was expelled from the

    25 court. He will be speaking about his friendship with

  3. 1 Mr. Berghofer and the character of Mr. Berghofer, and

    2 in that sense, the witness, Mr. Gradina, was proposed,

    3 but it seems that he has not turned up.

    4 The witness that you now see is Koncarevic,

    5 Ilija.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Mr. Koncarevic,

    7 could you please stand and make the solemn

    8 declaration?

    9 THE WITNESS: Just a minute. Let me prepare

    10 what I need.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Could you please read the

    12 solemn declaration?

    13 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    14 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    15 truth.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be

    17 seated.


    19 Examined by Mr. Fila:

    20 Q. Mr. Koncarevic, did you make a statement

    21 which you signed in your own hand to lawyer

    22 Mr. Petrovic from my office?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Will you take a look at that statement and

    25 confirm its authenticity, please, the one that you are

  4. 1 being shown, the one that is being shown you. You have

    2 it in English and in Serbian.

    3 A. Yes, I have it in Serbian as well.

    4 Q. Is that your statement?

    5 A. Yes, it is.

    6 MR. FILA: If there are no objections, then I

    7 tender this in evidence as 106 and 106A. Exhibit 106,

    8 106A.

    9 Q. Mr. Koncarevic, did you graduate from the

    10 Faculty of Economics, and if so, when?

    11 A. In 1973.

    12 Q. Where?

    13 THE INTERPRETER: I'm afraid we didn't hear

    14 the answer.

    15 Q. Can you hear me, Mr. Koncarevic?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Where did you graduate?

    18 A. In Belgrade.

    19 Q. Where were you employed?

    20 A. I was employed in the Yugoslav People's Army.

    21 Q. In 1990, 1991, that is the period for which

    22 we are interested in.

    23 A. I was already retired at the time. I was

    24 retired on the 1st of January, 1988.

    25 Q. And then you lived as a pensioner?

  5. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Are you one of the founders of the Serbian

    3 National Council of the Baranja region?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Were you its Secretary-General?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. When did this happen? When was this fact?

    8 A. On the 7th of January, 1991, in Sidski

    9 Banovci.

    10 Q. What was that organisation? Was it a secret

    11 organisation?

    12 A. Yes, it was a secret organisation. In order

    13 to contact with the public.

    14 Q. Can you read out the founding act?

    15 A. Yes, I can.

    16 Q. What are you reading from now?

    17 A. It is a book published by Ilija Petrovic

    18 because I have no other document available at the

    19 moment.

    20 Q. What is the book's name, title?

    21 A. The Serbian National Council of Slavonia,

    22 Baranja and Western Srem.

    23 MR. FILA: That is evidence, Prosecution's

    24 evidence --

    25 Q. Could you read it out to us, please, the

  6. 1 founding Act, not the declaration, but the statement?

    2 A. The founding Act, first of all -- can I begin

    3 reading?

    4 Q. Yes.

    5 A. "Bearing in mind that the unification of the

    6 Slovenes, with the Kingdom of Serbian Montenegro into a

    7 uniform state" -- "into a united state."

    8 THE INTERPRETER: A little slower, please.

    9 A. "Into a united state of the Slovenes, the

    10 Croats, and Serbs, was brought by the National Council

    11 of the Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes on the 24th of

    12 November, 1918, and in view of the fact that when

    13 the" --"that the rules of procedure for the National

    14 Council of Slovenes, Croats, and Serbs, all questions

    15 related to unification of the Slovenes, Croats, and

    16 Serbs into a national, free and independent state are

    17 considered unconditionally a question of the National

    18 Council of the three nations whose interests that

    19 council will support, confronted by the fact that the

    20 Slovenes and Croats have brought separate decisions on

    21 seceding from the State of Yugoslavia in which they

    22 entered jointly with the Serbs by a decision recognised

    23 on the 3rd" --

    24 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, we're losing the

    25 tone.

  7. 1 A. "Was completely ignored. The Serbian National

    2 Council for Slavonia, Baranja and Western Srem does not

    3 accept the solutions by which the present Republics of

    4 Croatia and Slovenia, without agreement on the part of

    5 the Serbian people as Serbia and Western Srem, separate

    6 these territories from the territory of the State of

    7 Yugoslavia. Second, as the sole legitimate organ of

    8 the Serbian, Baranja, Western Srem people in" --

    9 MR. FILA: Just one moment, please.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: We already have this

    11 document. It's Prosecutor 197, Exhibit 197. Is there

    12 any point? It's in English. We've got it in English.

    13 Is there any point in reading the whole document?

    14 MR. FILA: Well, never mind, Mr. Koncarevic.

    15 We have that evidence.

    16 Q. Could you please tell us whether you

    17 mentioned the 6th of April, 1941, in the declaration?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. And why do you mention that particular date?

    20 A. We mentioned the date because up until the

    21 6th of April, 1941, when Yugoslavia was attacked, and

    22 after that an independent State of Croatia was set up,

    23 there was great suffering for the Serbian people and

    24 many parts of Croatia changed their ethnic makeup.

    25 Many villages and municipalities and whole regions were

  8. 1 changed. The structure was changed to the debit of the

    2 Serbian people, to the advantage of the Croatian

    3 people.

    4 Q. Very well. Could you tell us how many

    5 Serbian National Councils existed?

    6 A. There were -- first of all, the Serb

    7 National Council was set up in July in Silibit (phoen).

    8 Q. What year?

    9 A. It was the National Council, all-embracing

    10 National Council in -- by proclamation, all the

    11 Presidents of the Municipalities with a Serb majority

    12 became members of the Serbian Democratic Party.

    13 Q. What was the second Serbian National Council?

    14 A. We set up the second council role because of

    15 the specific features of both regions and that it had

    16 no territorial links with Knin.

    17 Q. Did Slavko Dokmanovic, was he a member of the

    18 these two Serbian National Councils, first of all of

    19 one and then the other?

    20 A. I can say quite responsible that Slavko

    21 Dokmanovic was never a member of the Serbian National

    22 Council of Slavonia, Baranja and Western Srem.

    23 MR. FILA: Just a minute, please. There

    24 seems to be a problem in the translation. A little

    25 slower, please.

  9. 1 Q. Who entered the Serb National Council and

    2 how in Srb in 1990? How were the members elected,

    3 slowly.

    4 A. In Serbia in 1990 -- the Serbian people in

    5 its history always took important decisions for its

    6 fate on the religious and national gatherings.

    7 Q. And that is what happened in Srb?

    8 A. Under the leadership of Professor Raskovic.

    9 It was proclaimed that the Serbian National Council

    10 that was formed at the time was composed of the

    11 Presidents of the Municipalities where there was a

    12 Serbian majority in Croatian territory, and the

    13 Presidents of the Municipality Boards of the Serbian

    14 Democratic Party.

    15 Q. Thank you. Were you president of the Great

    16 National Council and when was it held? Great National

    17 Assembly?

    18 A. Yes, I was President of the Great National

    19 Assembly. It was constituted on the 25th of June,

    20 1991, and the first official meeting where the

    21 government was proclaimed was also held on the 25th or

    22 26th of September, 1991.

    23 Q. Let us go back to once again. How were the

    24 members of the Serbian National Council elected in

    25 1990?

  10. 1 A. I did not attend a meeting, but I was told

    2 from the press that the Serbian National Council was

    3 proclaimed and that within its composition the

    4 Presidents of the Municipalities and whether Serbs had

    5 a majority.

    6 Q. Were they elected by acclamation?

    7 A. Yes, acclamation. I wasn't there myself, but

    8 it was by acclamation.

    9 Q. May we go back to the Great National

    10 Assembly. You were president of the Great National

    11 Assembly; it took place on the 25th of June, 1991.

    12 When was the government elected?

    13 A. The government was elected on the 25th or the

    14 26th of September, I don't recall exactly, of 1991.

    15 Q. Were there any problems in Beli Manastir?

    16 Were there any problems in electing Slavko Dokmanovic?

    17 A. As far as I recall, Slavko Dokmanovic was at

    18 the time the most tragic figure in Croatia. The Serbs

    19 did not accept him because of his tolerance towards the

    20 Croats when he was the former Mayor -- formerly the

    21 Mayor of Vukovar, and the Croats did not want him

    22 because he was a Serb, so that he had a great deal of

    23 problems. And I know that Goran Hadzic had to

    24 intervene on two occasions, and me too once, because we

    25 did not have experts for agriculture at the time.

  11. 1 Q. Can he then be considered an extremist Serb

    2 or a moderate Serb? How did you see him?

    3 A. We considered him to be a moderate, temperate

    4 man, and many Serbs considered him to be a traitor of

    5 the Serbian people.

    6 Q. Do you recall a programme shown on Novi Sad

    7 television?

    8 A. Yes, I took part in that particular

    9 programme, that's right.

    10 Q. Do you recall whether the attitude adopted by

    11 Slavko Dokmanovic was the stand of the Serbian National

    12 Council or was it a moderate stand?

    13 A. He said on the occasion that he was not a

    14 member of the Serbian National Council, that he never

    15 was a member of the council. And the second thing he

    16 said was that he was speaking as the Mayor of Vukovar

    17 and the President of both the Serbs and the Croats, and

    18 his presentation was completely moderate. It was never

    19 coloured in any national colours.

    20 Q. Do you know the conditions under which this

    21 government worked? Well, it was the classical

    22 government. You had salaries and so on and so forth?

    23 A. Well, no, we did not have salaries. That

    24 government had no means at its disposal. There were

    25 marketing moves, looking for people on the other side

  12. 1 to recognise us.

    2 Q. Did you have an army, a policy, a solid

    3 territory?

    4 A. No. This was not under our competencies. We

    5 just had people organised in villages, within the

    6 villages, and these commanders were proclaimed

    7 commanders for the defence of the villages, but we did

    8 not have any power or authority over them because the

    9 territory was all broken up.

    10 Q. Thank you. On the 20th of November, 1991,

    11 were you in Vukovar and when did you come to Vukovar,

    12 when did you reach Vukovar?

    13 A. I came from Sid, from the direction of Sid,

    14 and I was invited by Hadzic to come to that meeting. I

    15 think that I left sometime between 12.00 and 1.00 p.m.

    16 and around 1.00, whether a little before or a little

    17 afterwards, I found myself in Vukovar.

    18 Q. Did you come to the VELEPROMET compound?

    19 A. Yes, that is where I went.

    20 Q. Did you see Slavko Dokmanovic there and when?

    21 A. Yes, yes, I did.

    22 Q. About what time was that?

    23 A. When he entered, at the beginning of the

    24 meeting, which began at about 2.00 p.m., he entered the

    25 hall at that time.

  13. 1 Q. How many entrances and exits to the hall are

    2 there?

    3 A. Just one.

    4 Q. When did this meeting end, the one at the

    5 VELEPROMET building?

    6 A. Around 3.00 p.m.

    7 Q. Throughout that time, was Slavko Dokmanovic

    8 there?

    9 A. Yes, yes, he was there inside. He talked

    10 about agriculture and also about tilling the land for

    11 the winter, about feeding the population, and also the

    12 great suffering that would follow, et cetera.

    13 Q. When did you last see him that day?

    14 A. Well, at the end of the meeting, we stood out

    15 there and we shook hands and I didn't see him after

    16 that.

    17 Q. That was around 3.00 p.m.; right?

    18 A. Yes, around 3.00 p.m.

    19 Q. Do you remember what kind of clothes he wore

    20 that day?

    21 A. He always wore some kind of hunting uniform

    22 of his own, I don't know, a huntsman's uniform. I

    23 think it was a huntsman's uniform. It wasn't a JNA

    24 uniform, no, no, no, no.

    25 Q. And one more thing, please. On the 20th of

  14. 1 November, were there any civilian authorities on the

    2 territory of the City of Vukovar?

    3 A. Our authority or that of the government does

    4 not exist in the area, and in the local communities --

    5 I mean, that is the first time we saw Vukovar. Whether

    6 in the local communities they had some kind of

    7 authority, I don't really know about that, but I don't

    8 think they had it, because then we said that we should

    9 establish some kind of authority together with them in

    10 order to feed the population, to take care of health,

    11 and to take care of children, et cetera.

    12 Q. Can one say that there was military rule at

    13 that time in Vukovar?

    14 A. Yes, roughly, yes.

    15 Q. Did you also get certain permits? Was there

    16 freedom of movement or did you have to have a permit?

    17 A. No, no, no, no. There were checkpoints.

    18 Q. By the JNA?

    19 A. Yes, by the JNA.

    20 Q. Approximately when was civilian rule first

    21 established in Vukovar?

    22 A. I think that our government, at the beginning

    23 of December, passed a decision to establish the

    24 Executive Council of Vukovar, and I think that was done

    25 sometime by mid-December.

  15. 1 Q. So can I conclude that before December this

    2 was not possible, and before December in Vukovar there

    3 was only military administration?

    4 A. I am stating that with full responsibility,

    5 because I was President of the Assembly, after all, and

    6 I knew that.

    7 Q. Do you know Slavko Dokmanovic as a person?

    8 Did you talk to someone about him?

    9 A. Well, yes, I would meet Slavko Dokmanovic.

    10 And he looks like a humanist to me, rather than a

    11 hard-core nationalist or radical or something like

    12 that. He was a reasonable man who mainly dealt in

    13 agriculture and was preoccupied with agriculture.

    14 Q. If I could say that he is being accused of

    15 having participated in the killing of at least 200

    16 people in October, would you believe that?

    17 A. Slavko Dokmanovic?

    18 Q. Yes.

    19 A. I don't think that he would be capable of

    20 spanking his own child, let alone bring arms against a

    21 person.

    22 MR. FILA: Thank you.

    23 A. You're welcome.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Niemann?

    25 Cross-examined by Mr. Niemann

  16. 1 Q. I think it is your evidence, is it not, that

    2 you didn't attend the Serb National Council meeting

    3 which took place at Srb near Knin on the 25th of July,

    4 1990; is that your evidence?

    5 A. Yes, I was not there.

    6 Q. Are you aware of the fact that Slavko

    7 Dokmanovic attended this meeting?

    8 A. No, I didn't know about it. I read about it

    9 in the newspapers.

    10 Q. And therefore you wouldn't have known whether

    11 or not he was in fact made a member of the council on

    12 that day or at that meeting?

    13 A. No, I don't know that. Only that much which

    14 was said, that the Presidents of Serb Municipalities

    15 and Presidents of the Local Committees of the Serbian

    16 Democratic Party would become members of this council.

    17 This was carried by the press, and I thought therefore

    18 that Dokmanovic was included because he was President

    19 of a municipality, and that was Vukovar. This was in

    20 1990.

    21 Q. Why did you attend the government meeting at

    22 VELEPROMET on the 20th of November, 1991?

    23 A. There was supposed to be an agreement as to

    24 how civilian rule would be established on the territory

    25 of Vukovar, and this is within the domain of the

  17. 1 assembly.

    2 Q. What capacity did you perform at that

    3 meeting?

    4 A. President of the Assembly. To be informed.

    5 Q. Did you preside over the meeting then as

    6 President?

    7 A. No.

    8 Q. Well, who did preside over the meeting?

    9 A. It was supposed to be chaired by Hadzic, but

    10 the main speaker was a Colonel, some Colonel whom we

    11 found there. I think his surname was Vojnovic. I

    12 can't remember his first name.

    13 Q. This is a colonel in the JNA?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. If he was the main speaker, what did he have

    16 to say?

    17 A. He said that we have nothing to do there for

    18 the time being, that we could not establish any kind of

    19 government, that there is military rule, military

    20 administration there then, and that perhaps it would

    21 become possible within a few days.

    22 Q. And what did the meeting say in response to

    23 this?

    24 A. Attempts were made that we establish this

    25 immediately, to set a date for this or something, but

  18. 1 it was impossible because the situation was as it was

    2 then.

    3 Q. Now, who informed you that the meeting would

    4 take place?

    5 A. Hadzic, by telephone.

    6 Q. And what did he say to you when he informed

    7 you that this meeting would occur?

    8 A. My first name is Ilija, so he said, "Ilija,

    9 come to this meeting. We're going to have a meeting on

    10 the 20th of in Vukovar, so come and attend it if you

    11 can." That was all.

    12 Q. Did you attend previous meetings of the

    13 government, in particular on the day before this

    14 meeting, that's on the 19th?

    15 A. No, no. No, no, no, no. I attended

    16 government meetings perhaps only twice. This was not a

    17 real session. There was only -- it was just a

    18 meeting. And I also attended another government

    19 session after that.

    20 Q. Now, how did you get to VELEPROMET?

    21 A. I came with some kind of Combi from Sid.

    22 Q. Did you drive yourself or did you have

    23 someone drive you?

    24 A. No, no, no, no, no, no. No, no, no.

    25 Somebody drove the Combi, and who that was and whose

  19. 1 Combi that was, I have no idea.

    2 Q. Were you on your own or were you with a group

    3 of people?

    4 A. There were three or four or five of us there,

    5 possibly. I just remember that Josip Pajakovic (phoen)

    6 was with me, and the rest -- I think Beretuk (phoen), I

    7 think. I don't know his first name. He was doing

    8 something in the government. I don't know what post he

    9 exactly held. I think he was in the vehicle too. And

    10 I can't remember the other ones.

    11 Q. Now, when you arrived at VELEPROMET, did you

    12 immediately proceed inside the building?

    13 A. I stayed for a while in front of the

    14 building, because there were some of my acquaintances

    15 there, and there were also some people whom I had seen

    16 for the first time. So we had brief exchanges of

    17 views, we would say "Hello" to each other, and then

    18 sometime before 2.00 I walked into the room.

    19 Q. And are you able to recall now some of the

    20 people there that you spoke to?

    21 A. They knew me rather than -- I didn't know

    22 them. I knew their faces, but I didn't know their

    23 names. I'm very bad at remembering people's names

    24 anyway.

    25 Q. Were you in any sort of military-style

  20. 1 uniform on the day?

    2 A. No, not me. No. I never wore a uniform

    3 throughout the events that are being discussed.

    4 Q. Was there any other people there who belonged

    5 to the government who were in uniform? I don't

    6 necessarily mean JNA uniform but I mean military-style

    7 uniform.

    8 A. Well, you know, we had different uniforms

    9 because our hygienic conditions, you know, and

    10 everything were such -- the easiest thing was to wear

    11 an olive green-grey uniform and camouflage and to wear

    12 that, so, yes, yes, some people did wear that.

    13 Q. Now, this Colonel, I think you said he was a

    14 JNA Colonel, was he?

    15 A. Yes, yes, he was inside.

    16 Q. Was there any other military people present

    17 apart from the Colonel?

    18 A. Apart from the Colonel, when I walked into

    19 the room, there was not a single other military man in

    20 there.

    21 Q. Do you know Arkan?

    22 A. I saw him on television.

    23 Q. Did you see him there that day?

    24 A. I don't know him personally. No, I walked in

    25 before Arkan arrived, but I only heard that he had

  21. 1 arrived but I didn't see him.

    2 Q. Did anyone -- I withdraw that.

    3 Did people come and leave the meeting from

    4 time to time during the course of the meeting?

    5 A. Only Hadzic went out of the meeting because

    6 there was an enormous number of journalists from all

    7 over the world outside, so he was asked to come out but

    8 no one else came out.

    9 Q. Now, when Hadzic went out, he gave a press

    10 conference, did he?

    11 A. I didn't know that. I was inside.

    12 Q. Was there any discussion about what to do

    13 with Croatian prisoners at this meeting?

    14 A. No, no, no. No, this was not within our

    15 competence. That was the first time I saw Vukovar.

    16 Q. Was this something that you're saying

    17 absolutely didn't happen or is it just something that

    18 you say you can't remember?

    19 A. Well, that was not the previous question --

    20 could you repeat your previous question.

    21 Q. Yes, I'm sorry. Can you hear me now clearly?

    22 A. Yes, I can hear you. I can hear you.

    23 Q. Now, when you said -- you said that there was

    24 no discussion about what to do with Croatian

    25 prisoners. My next question was --

  22. 1 A. No, because it was not within our competence.

    2 Q. What I'm asking you is --

    3 A. Colonel Vojnovic told us loud and clear that

    4 those people and that all other authorities and powers

    5 were under the military in Vukovar, so it would have

    6 been pointless to discuss that. Perhaps someone tried

    7 to but it didn't mean a thing.

    8 Q. What I'm asking you is, is this something

    9 that you know categorically and absolutely did not

    10 occur, or are you simply saying that you didn't know of

    11 it?

    12 A. I don't understand what happened. I don't

    13 understand the question, whether this had happened or

    14 had not happened. What event are we talking about?

    15 What is this "happening"?

    16 MR. FILA: Your Honour, I think the answer

    17 has been provided by the witness. Look at the

    18 transcript, please.

    19 MR. NIEMANN: I don't think so, Your Honour.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: No, I'm sorry. I don't agree

    21 with you, Mr. Fila. Could you --

    22 MR. FILA: Sorry, I heard him answer in

    23 Serbian.

    24 MR. NIEMANN:

    25 Q. My question is this: When you say that there

  23. 1 was no discussion about what to do with Croatian

    2 prisoners at that meeting, my question is: Is that

    3 something that you say absolutely did not happen or is

    4 it something that you yourself didn't hear or didn't

    5 know about?

    6 A. Please. This was a meeting without any

    7 minutes and without a set agenda. If someone mentioned

    8 something like that in front of this Colonel, I allow

    9 that that is possible, but I didn't take part in that

    10 and this was not an item on the agenda. And it was not

    11 within the domain of our competencies at all.

    12 Q. Now, are you saying that you had an agenda

    13 for this meeting?

    14 A. No, we did not have an agenda for that

    15 meeting.

    16 Q. Well, what did you mean when you said "This

    17 was not an item for the agenda"? What did you mean by

    18 that?

    19 A. I mean there was no agenda. That is what I

    20 said.

    21 Q. Now, how well do you know Mr. Dokmanovic?

    22 A. Not that well except that I met him during

    23 the mentioned events.

    24 Q. How many times would you have met him in

    25 total?

  24. 1 A. At the meeting of the assembly and preparing

    2 the work of the assembly, this Ministry that he was in

    3 charge of, where he really had a tough time, he came

    4 and he asked me to help him with my influence or to see

    5 whether I had some connections, whether I could do

    6 something to help, et cetera, so there were quite a few

    7 contacts. But they certainly were not that frequent.

    8 Q. How frequently had you met him, known him,

    9 and spoken to him prior to the government being elected

    10 in, I think September of 1991?

    11 A. Well, perhaps five or six times.

    12 Q. And you hadn't known him before that time; is

    13 that correct? You hadn't known him personally. You

    14 may have known of him --

    15 A. No, no. Before those events, I did not know

    16 Slavko Dokmanovic, I only read about him in the press

    17 as the Mayor of Vukovar when he was elected, et cetera.

    18 Q. I take it you didn't know anything about his

    19 family.

    20 A. Once I met his family as I went through his

    21 village. I met his wife, but I didn't meet his

    22 children.

    23 Q. Was that before or after this meeting on the

    24 20th of November of 1991?

    25 A. That was way back in the spring of 1991.

  25. 1 Q. What time did you leave VELEPROMET on that

    2 day of the meeting of the 20th of November?

    3 A. Around 3.00, sometime after 3.00.

    4 Q. And what route did you follow in order --

    5 when you left?

    6 A. I went on the same road that I came in on,

    7 via Negoslavci to Sid.

    8 Q. And can you tell us about the trip going

    9 home, the return journey? What were the traffic

    10 conditions like?

    11 A. Well, I didn't notice anything special except

    12 that it was different than the conditions on which I

    13 arrived.

    14 Q. In what sense was it different?

    15 A. I took the same Combi back to Sid, the same

    16 one that I took from Sid to there. I didn't know this

    17 man and I don't know who drove it and I don't know

    18 whose Combi it is, and then I went back to Sid and I

    19 took my own car back to Novi Sad.

    20 Q. On your way back to Sid, did you see

    21 Mr. Dokmanovic at all?

    22 A. No.

    23 Q. Did you see any particular types of vehicles

    24 on the roads that you can recall?

    25 A. No, I didn't. I sat in the vehicle and I was

  26. 1 talking en route, perhaps there was something on the

    2 road, but I didn't see anything. I can't really say.

    3 Q. And did you stop at any stage on the way

    4 between VELEPROMET and Sid?

    5 A. No, no.

    6 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Fila? No

    8 questions.

    9 Mr. Koncarevic, I have a couple of questions

    10 for you. You may be of some assistance to us by

    11 clarifying one or two points.

    12 First of all, at that particular meeting of

    13 the government on the 20th of November, were problems,

    14 the various problems arising out of the destruction of

    15 Vukovar discussed?

    16 A. You know, seven years have gone by, and to

    17 remember everything correctly and to say with full

    18 responsibility who said what, that would really be

    19 pretentious for my age, you know, I really couldn't --

    20 we were shocked, you know, with the situation and

    21 everything we found there, and we talked about that and

    22 we looked at one another. We didn't even have any

    23 minutes. So it was a meeting that referred to the

    24 future more than saying what should be done when.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Would you say

  27. 1 that this particular meeting was a sort of emergency

    2 meeting since the government had already met the

    3 previous day, on the 19th of November, in Erdut, and if

    4 so, how would you explain --

    5 A. I think that the point of the meeting was --

    6 oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Did I interrupt?

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Please go on.

    8 A. I think that Hadzic convened the meeting so

    9 that the government could impose itself as some kind of

    10 an authority for the town in the future. I don't think

    11 he had anything specific in mind, what he could do

    12 right now, but I think that Mr. Hadzic could say more

    13 about that than I could.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: I think, if I'm not wrong, on

    15 the previous day the government had decided -- actually

    16 had issued a sort of decree, a decision, whereby the

    17 JNA should be under the control of the government.

    18 Now, in light of that, how was the suggestion

    19 by the Colonel of the JNA -- how did people react to

    20 the suggestion by the Colonel -- could you wait one

    21 moment, please? -- how did people at that meeting react

    22 to the suggestion by the Colonel of the JNA that the

    23 military rule should prevail?

    24 A. They reconciled themselves to it. That's the

    25 way it was. We didn't have anything and they had

  28. 1 everything.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: A final question: We were

    3 given by the Defence the agenda and a summary of the

    4 minutes, I think -- again, if I'm not wrong -- of the

    5 government's meeting on the 19th of November. How

    6 would you explain that there was no agenda -- there

    7 were no minutes for the meeting of the 20th of

    8 November? As I say, the day before minutes and an

    9 agenda and minutes of the meeting were carefully drawn

    10 up.

    11 A. Well, you know what? If that was the case on

    12 the 19th -- I'm not a member of the government and I

    13 cannot answer why things were the way they were and how

    14 things were, et cetera, and as far as the 20th is

    15 concerned, perhaps that is something to do with the

    16 message that Hadzic sent me. He said, "Come if you

    17 can."

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I see there is no

    19 objection to the witness being released. Thank you,

    20 Mr. Koncarevic, for testifying. You may now be

    21 released.

    22 THE WITNESS: Thank you too.

    23 (The witness withdrew)

    24 MR. FILA: Perhaps I should explain

    25 something, Your Honour? Half of the witnesses are

  29. 1 coming from Vukovar and half from Novi Sad, not a

    2 single witness is from Belgrade, so I really have no

    3 idea when who arrives. I am a bit embarrassed by all

    4 this but ...

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Of course, Mr. Fila, it is

    6 not your fault. You should not be embarrassed. But I

    7 hope the registrar is going to have the next witness as

    8 soon as possible.

    9 I may probably turn to the Prosecutor and ask

    10 whether they have been able to prepare the famous

    11 stills.

    12 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, this is an

    13 ongoing saga. We have tried, at the end of last week,

    14 on several occasions to get the photos done. The paper

    15 that was necessary for this had not been received, and

    16 I understood that it was held up in procurement. We

    17 were told that they would have these in the video unit

    18 today and Mr. Dzuro from our office went down to make

    19 it and was advised they still had not received the

    20 paper for printing the photographs. I spoke with

    21 Ms. Featherstone at the lunch break and made her aware

    22 of this and she said she would follow up with

    23 Mr. Falces and try to get this sorted out.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, thank you.

    25 MR. FILA: The next witness is Goran Hadzic,

  30. 1 Your Honour.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Hadzic, could

    3 you please kindly stand and make the solemn

    4 declaration?

    5 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    6 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    7 truth.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be

    9 seated. Mr. Fila


    11 Examined by Mr. Fila

    12 Q. Mr. Hadzic, did you make a statement to the

    13 investigator in my office that we're going to show you

    14 and is that your signature on the statement?

    15 A. Yes, it is.

    16 MR. FILA: Thank you. I tender this in

    17 evidence. It will be number D107 and D107A.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: No objection?

    19 MR. WILLIAMSON: No objection.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    21 MR. FILA:

    22 Q. Mr. Hadzic, where did you go to school, what

    23 university did you graduate from, what schools have

    24 you, and when?

    25 A. I completed elementary school in Borovo

  31. 1 Naselje Vukovar gymnasium, that is secondary school in

    2 Vinkovci, and I studied economics in Osijek, but I

    3 never graduated. After the second year, I left

    4 university and went to work.

    5 Q. At the first multi-party elections, were you

    6 elected as a member of the municipal assembly of

    7 Vukovar?

    8 A. Yes, I was elected on behalf of the SDP, as

    9 it was called, the Party of Democratic Change.

    10 Q. Do you know Slavko Dokmanovic?

    11 A. Yes, I do. He comes from a neighbouring

    12 village.

    13 Q. Was he elected at that same list for a member

    14 of the Municipal Assembly of Vukovar?

    15 A. Yes, he was.

    16 Q. Why were you on the SDP list, the Party of

    17 Democratic Change?

    18 A. After the system that reigned in Yugoslavia,

    19 we set up a party of a Yugoslav orientation with Serbs

    20 and Croats both taking part and we wanted Yugoslavia to

    21 remain. We did not want to form nationalist parties,

    22 and that is why I was in the SDP party.

    23 Q. There was a Serb party registered and put

    24 up for elections in Vukovar that year, was there?

    25 A. Not in Vukovar. There was the Serb

  32. 1 Democratic Party in Knin, but we Serbs did not want to

    2 have a nationalist party to come forward with a

    3 nationalist party.

    4 Q. Why did you choose the SDP then?

    5 A. Because the belief that prevailed with the

    6 Serb people, that the Croats were in favour of the

    7 Yugoslavia and that they wanted to see it survive.

    8 Especially the people such as my father and people

    9 like -- like-minded people. We were not able, nor did

    10 we want to, make parties with -- of Serb orientation

    11 before the elections. Had we done so before the

    12 elections, I could never have explained to my father or

    13 like-minded people that we were not to blame for the

    14 victory of the HDZ in Croatia. This way we accepted

    15 the Croatian party but, in addition to this, Croatia

    16 opted for the nationalist option and seceding from

    17 Yugoslavia.

    18 Q. How was Slavko Dokmanovic elected as

    19 President of the Municipal Assembly?

    20 A. Slavko was elected as member in the Municipal

    21 Assembly at a meeting, democratically by secret ballot,

    22 there were two candidates as far as I recall.

    23 Q. Did the Croats vote for him as well?

    24 A. A considerable portion of Croats voted for

    25 him. They were not nationalists.

  33. 1 Q. Was he a moderate or an extremist Serb at the

    2 time?

    3 A. Well, he was taken to be a very moderate

    4 Serb, and some extremist Serbs hated him for that.

    5 Q. Later on, were you President of the Prime

    6 Minister of the government in the region? How was the

    7 government set up? How were you elected?

    8 A. The government was set up after Croatia

    9 seceded from Yugoslavia, that is to say, after the

    10 unilateral decision on the part of Croatia to secede

    11 because it was not recognised by the world at the

    12 time. We set up a government, we convened a meeting of

    13 all the deputies of the Municipal Assembly of Vukovar

    14 and all the other Municipal Assemblies from the area of

    15 Slavonia and Baranja and all the other deputies from

    16 Slavonia and Baranja, as I say, and they were Serbs for

    17 the most part but there were other nationalities as

    18 well, Hungarians, I'm not sure whether there were any

    19 Croats but I think there were. And they gave me a

    20 mandate.

    21 Q. And then you set up a government, you

    22 proposed the government at this Great National

    23 Assembly.

    24 How did Slavko Dokmanovic come to be Minister

    25 of Agriculture?

  34. 1 A. Slavko Dokmanovic was a very honourable man,

    2 and as you know, he was and is -- he had graduated from

    3 the faculty of farming and he was nearby and I was able

    4 to appoint him. I appointed him as such and

    5 politically, this also corresponded to us because he

    6 was very hard-working.

    7 Q. Was he easily elected or were there those

    8 Serbs who did not want to elect him?

    9 A. With all the reasonable Serbs, this was okay,

    10 but there were not a lot of them. Most extremists

    11 attacked him, and I had a lot of problems and had to

    12 use all my authority to have Slavko appointed

    13 Minister. I thought that he was very valuable to me

    14 and I see that I had not made a mistake because he was

    15 the only man that was able to undertake this matter and

    16 all the peace agreements that we adopted.

    17 Q. What did the extremist Serbs criticise him

    18 for?

    19 A. He was criticised because -- and I don't

    20 think Slavko was to blame there -- but they said that

    21 he had given over Vukovar to the Croats. These are

    22 criticisms that are untenable. He was for the Yugoslav

    23 option. And while we were forming the SDS, Slavko was

    24 in contact with Zagreb and he brought executive

    25 secretaries of the SDP to Trpinja. Those were the

  35. 1 basic accusations made against Slavko.

    2 Q. The role of your government, what conditions

    3 did you have for functioning? Did you have a salary,

    4 police, and so on?

    5 A. We had nothing of a normal government. We

    6 had no salaries, we couldn't have an army or a police

    7 force for practical reasons because we were a Serb

    8 region within Yugoslavia, and all this existed on the

    9 territory of former Yugoslavia. We formed a government

    10 under very difficult conditions. The territory was

    11 divided up in half, and for the most part, we did not

    12 have any contacts with the other part of the territory

    13 for a considerable time.

    14 We had to go -- pass a lot of kilometres to

    15 set up links, telephones did not work, there was no

    16 electricity, no water. It was very difficult to work

    17 under such conditions. But we tried to perform a

    18 political function, we tried to work with the people,

    19 to have the people stay on the territory, and for life

    20 to carry on as normally as possible.

    21 Q. Did you undertake anything to change this

    22 marginal role on the part of the government?

    23 A. Well, yes, we did. We adopted several

    24 decisions, we wrote letters, but this did not have much

    25 effect, I'm afraid.

  36. 1 Q. Did you hold a meeting of your government on

    2 the 19th of November, 1991?

    3 A. Let me recall the date. In Erdut, yes, it

    4 was the meeting on the 19th of November in Erdut, as

    5 far as I recall.

    6 Q. I would like to show you the minutes from

    7 that meeting. It is Defence Exhibit D53. Would you

    8 take a look at it, please?

    9 A. Yes, that is the minutes from the meeting and

    10 my signature.

    11 Q. Would you take a look at the conclusion under

    12 point 5. Could you read it and tell us what it is

    13 about?

    14 A. The government of the Serbian (translation

    15 unclear) should have units on its territory.

    16 Q. What did that mean? Could you explain that

    17 to us?

    18 A. We had practical problems with the

    19 functioning of the government because there was still

    20 the conditions of war. The territory, as I said a

    21 moment ago, was cut into half, was divided, and each

    22 village had its points, army points, and you had to

    23 have a permit to move through these check points so

    24 that a Minister, for example, was not able to perform

    25 his functions. He had to have five permits issued in

  37. 1 order to pass through the region, and we wanted this to

    2 be recognised and we wanted to do something with regard

    3 to this civilian section, and we tried to bring in a

    4 decision which nobody accepted. We just brought in

    5 that particular decision.

    6 Q. Could you read once again what item 5 states?

    7 A. "The government of the Serb region should

    8 be above the units of the JNA on its territory."

    9 Q. Is that the future tense?

    10 A. Yes. As a function -- it is the day before

    11 we went to Vukovar, so we were planning to ask them to

    12 grant this.

    13 Q. Does that mean that at that particular moment

    14 you had no competences (sic) over the JNA?

    15 A. Yes, I thought that was quite clear but I

    16 don't seem to have explained it sufficiently.

    17 Q. Would you explain it to us?

    18 A. From the fact that we were seeking this,

    19 asking for this, it is quite evident that this was not

    20 the situation. Had we had that, we would not have had

    21 to ask for it, and if we had had good will to realise

    22 this, this could not have been done in one day, so we

    23 needed at least ten to 15 days to implement this, and

    24 we needed, in fact, 15 days to one month.

    25 Q. What was convened for the following day, for

  38. 1 the 20th of November, according to those minutes?

    2 A. We had a lot of problems with Vukovar,

    3 problems not only with the Croats but also with the

    4 Serbs who were on the other side and who did not

    5 respect and recognise the government, and we knew that

    6 Vukovar was liberated and that we would have to go

    7 there.

    8 As President, I did not have not the courage

    9 but the political wisdom to convene a government

    10 meeting there because the question was that we did

    11 not -- and Ministers who were intellectuals, part of

    12 them were afraid to go.

    13 Q. Who were they afraid of? Who were they

    14 afraid of; could you tell us that?

    15 A. Well, they were afraid of threats from the

    16 Serbs who said that they did not recognise our

    17 government, and there were individual threats as well,

    18 not towards myself but threats were made against

    19 Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic, and he was very brave to go

    20 there.

    21 I convened a meeting and I said, anybody who

    22 can come, please, to come. If not, then that was

    23 another matter. Some of the Ministers could not reach

    24 the meeting place.

    25 Q. Was there minutes taken, records? Did you

  39. 1 have an agenda?

    2 A. No. I tried to see the Ministers who had

    3 arrived, but there were no conditions for the regular

    4 work and functioning of the government.

    5 Q. Can you tell us where that meeting was held

    6 and how long it lasted?

    7 A. The meeting, I can tell you this precisely,

    8 was held in the VELEPROMET premises in Vukovar. As far

    9 as the time is concerned, as far as I recall, I arrived

    10 there somewhere before 2.00 p.m., perhaps 1.30 p.m.,

    11 and the government meeting began somewhere around 2.00

    12 p.m.

    13 THE INTERPRETER: We've lost the time it

    14 lasted.

    15 A. The meeting lasted one hour.

    16 Q. Did you leave the hall during that time?

    17 A. I left the hall once or twice. I gave a

    18 statement to some foreign television network. I did

    19 not preside over the meeting, chair the meeting,

    20 although I had intended to chair it, but I had to leave

    21 the rostrum, leave the table, and sit down as an

    22 ordinary member with the other members in the audience.

    23 MR. FILA: May we now see a tape, the D2

    24 tape, from the VELEPROMET meeting?

    25 Q. This was around 1.50, 52 or 53 minutes, 1.52,

  40. 1 1.53.

    2 MR. FILA: Two or three minutes.

    3 We can start the tape rolling.

    4 Q. Can you see the tape, Mr. Hadzic?

    5 A. Yes, I can.

    6 MR. FILA: Well, we can't at the moment.

    7 Your Honour -- here we are. May we take it back to --

    8 let's start it again, please. Rewind it to 13.55, for

    9 example. May we rewind it?

    10 Q. Mr. Hadzic, when you see yourself there,

    11 please tell us to stop the tape.

    12 A. Stop. Yes. I can see myself now.

    13 MR. FILA: Would the usher show the

    14 photographs, please?

    15 Q. Mr. Hadzic, do you recognise yourself on that

    16 photograph?

    17 A. Yes, I do.

    18 Q. I don't think we need see the tape any

    19 further now. Thank you -- well, let's see it for

    20 another few seconds.

    21 (Videotape played)

    22 Q. What is more important is how long did the

    23 meeting last and can you tell us at the government

    24 meeting what was discussed?

    25 A. The meeting, as far as I recall, lasted for

  41. 1 about one hour, about until 3.00 p.m. We discussed --

    2 it was not -- it was a meeting, an informal talk,

    3 discussion, about the future of the civilian population

    4 that had remained in Vukovar. About food supplies,

    5 bread supplies, more or less social matters. It was

    6 not easy to bring in a conclusion because the meeting

    7 was chaired by a Lieutenant Colonel, he did not have

    8 any special competences, although he was introduced as

    9 the commander of the town.

    10 Q. He was the -- was the town administered by

    11 military rule or civilian rule?

    12 A. No, military rule.

    13 Q. When did you introduce civilian rule,

    14 civilian administration?

    15 A. We tried seven days later to do this, but I

    16 think that after the new year, this happened after the

    17 new year, perhaps even a little later.

    18 Q. When did you leave VELEPROMET on that

    19 particular day?

    20 A. I think I left after the meeting, somewhere

    21 around 3.00 p.m.

    22 Q. And was that the last time you saw Slavko

    23 Dokmanovic on that day?

    24 A. On that day, yes.

    25 Q. Since when have you known Slavko Dokmanovic?

  42. 1 A. I have known Slavko since before the war,

    2 almost 25 years, all in all. I've known him for almost

    3 25 years.

    4 Q. What kind of man is he? What is the general

    5 opinion of him as a man?

    6 A. Well, the general opinion is that Slavko as a

    7 man is an intelligent man, that he is a professional in

    8 his job, that above all, that he is tolerant and

    9 reasonable and that he had a lot of sympathies with the

    10 local inhabitants, and it is not immodest to say that

    11 both the Serbs, the Croats, and other nationalities

    12 always had sympathies for him. He was always a

    13 reasonable option and never an extreme nationalist

    14 option.

    15 Q. Was he a member of the Serb National

    16 Council for (translation unclear)?

    17 A. Slavko Dokmanovic, as is common knowledge,

    18 was elected to the -- in Srb in July, somewhere in July

    19 1990, and after the decision of the Municipal Assembly

    20 of Vukovar, the first meeting that was held afterwards,

    21 he left the council and, although he was co-opted into

    22 the council because he was put forward by the Knin

    23 leadership, the leadership in Knin, and as the

    24 representatives of the Serbs, Slavko went there. But

    25 as I talked to him about that problem, he told me that

  43. 1 at similar meetings he would also be a representative

    2 of the Croats in the Vukovar municipality.

    3 Q. So you say that he left the Serb National

    4 Council?

    5 A. Yes, he left the Serb National Council at

    6 the -- of the Municipal Assembly of Vukovar before my

    7 very eyes. I was present on that particular occasion.

    8 Q. Thank you. Was he in the second Serb

    9 National Council?

    10 A. No, he was not, and he did not even know of

    11 its existence.

    12 Q. Did you read the book -- have you read the

    13 book by Ilija Petrovic about the Serb National

    14 Council?

    15 A. I have got the book, and when I saw the way

    16 in which Ilija Petrovic wrote the book, I just looked

    17 through it and threw it away.

    18 Q. Do you know why he called him an incapable

    19 President of the Municipal Assembly?

    20 A. Well, according to Ilija Petrovic and some

    21 other Serb nationalists --

    22 Q. And you thought that they thought he was

    23 incapable because he was not a nationalist?

    24 A. Yes, according to Ilija Petrovic, but I don't

    25 agree with that.

  44. 1 Q. What don't you agree with?

    2 A. That Slavko was incapable. He was a very

    3 capable man, but he was not a nationalist, and I do not

    4 agree that he was incapable.

    5 Q. While in VELEPROMET, on the photograph, there

    6 was somebody standing next to you in the photograph.

    7 Who was that individual?

    8 A. You can see Zeljko Raznjatovic.

    9 Q. Are you wearing the same uniforms?

    10 A. Well, the uniforms are similar but not the

    11 same, not identical. I bought mine in Novi Sad. I

    12 don't know where he came by his uniform.

    13 Q. Were those uniforms uniforms of your

    14 government?

    15 A. No. I just wore the uniform for practical

    16 reasons because there was no electricity and no water,

    17 and I had to wear something. I should have worn a

    18 suit, which was not physically possible in the war

    19 conditions that prevailed. So to blend in with the

    20 environment and the atmosphere, everybody wore some

    21 kind of uniform, and that's why I wore that particular

    22 uniform. It was a nice one. There were not many of

    23 them. There were in 1992, later on.

    24 Q. Are they uniforms of the regular JNA army?

    25 A. No, no. I just bought the uniform, I think

  45. 1 in an American shop in Novi Sad, or a private firm, a

    2 private shop.

    3 Q. Mr. Hadzic, was Slavko Dokmanovic wearing a

    4 uniform like that at the meeting?

    5 A. No, he did not have a uniform like me. He

    6 had a mixed-coloured one.

    7 Q. When leaving VELEPROMET at the end of the

    8 meeting of the government, did you give any interviews?

    9 A. Yes, I gave an interview in the VELEPROMET

    10 compound and I gave an interview later on, perhaps

    11 somewhere around 4.00 or 5.00 or 6.00 p.m., I don't

    12 recall whether it was dark or -- it was at the end of

    13 the day, at dusk.

    14 Q. Where?

    15 A. In Sid.

    16 Q. What did you say? Where did you come from?

    17 What was happening?

    18 A. Well, Belgrade television asked me what had

    19 happened, what I was doing. I said that I had come

    20 from Vukovar, and that as the government had a very

    21 poor influence at that time, I said that we had held a

    22 government meeting of sorts for the people to see that

    23 the government was not afraid to go to Vukovar, and I

    24 had to say this because many people didn't believe that

    25 we would be going there, and that's what I said, that

  46. 1 we bore in mind the fact that attention was paid to the

    2 civilians.

    3 Q. Did you mention any war prisoners, courts,

    4 and so on?

    5 A. As we were part of Yugoslavia and regardless

    6 of the fact that we were not recognised, we did have

    7 courts of the first and second degree -- you probably

    8 know that -- and I said that we strove to see that

    9 justice was done and that no mistakes were made, that

    10 the people were justly tried and either sentenced or

    11 released.

    12 Q. And you said that it was better to have 100

    13 people than have somebody who was innocent -- guilty?

    14 A. I said that it would be better to leave 100

    15 criminals go rather than have one person innocent

    16 condemned. And I think that today. That is what I

    17 strove for throughout my work in politics and I'm sure

    18 that the Croatian side is well aware of that as well.

    19 Q. When you spoke of courts, did you have in

    20 mind the regular courts that existed at that time or

    21 some sort of popular national courts?

    22 A. No, I had in mind the courts already in

    23 existence, the municipal and community courts, county

    24 courts.

    25 Q. Before you left Vukovar with regard to the

  47. 1 negotiations in Erdut and the Erdut agreement, did

    2 Slavko Dokmanovic play a role?

    3 A. Slavko Dokmanovic, as I said in my

    4 introductory part, helped me in -- with Vance's plan.

    5 He played one of the key roles together with me and

    6 some other people in seeing that the Dayton agreement

    7 was a success and that an agreement was signed. Had

    8 Erdut not have been signed, Dayton would not have been

    9 signed.

    10 Q. So he played a key role --

    11 Would you please repeat the role over the

    12 Erdut agreement.

    13 THE INTERPRETER: We lost the tone again. We

    14 did last time.

    15 A. As far as Slavko himself took part, there

    16 were three key individuals, three or four key

    17 individuals, and Slavko was one of them. He took part,

    18 and half his authority was used there.

    19 Q. Was he replaced in his duties as President?

    20 A. Yes, he had problems because of this.

    21 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, we're talking

    22 about 1995, the Erdut agreement, and I'm not sure how

    23 that is relevant to this issue.

    24 MR. FILA: It is highly relevant. Let me

    25 explain. Not for your Prosecution but it is highly

  48. 1 relevant for the character of the individual that you

    2 are trying here. That is what I had in mind. So only

    3 in that sense, Mr. Williamson, is it relevant, nothing

    4 else. He was a man of peace.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: You may proceed.

    6 MR. FILA: Therefore, the signing of this

    7 agreement, did he perform the role of a man of peace in

    8 favour of the peaceful reintegration of the area into

    9 Croatia?

    10 A. At that time, there was a great deal of

    11 impact and Slavko played a great role as a man of

    12 peace, and somebody wanted -- people wanted to

    13 liquidate him and even at that price he played the role

    14 of a man of peace.

    15 Q. If I have summarised correctly, when you gave

    16 your interview in Sid and the other interviews, you

    17 tried to assert the government which, in fact, was not

    18 of any great importance.

    19 A. Yes, you've understood correctly. The

    20 government of Slavonia and Baranja did not have any

    21 great importance later on either because the Srpska

    22 Krajina region was set up and the government was

    23 marginal. Slavko Dokmanovic was not elected to the

    24 government of Srpska Krajina. No, he was not.

    25 Q. Some mention was made of the fact that you

  49. 1 gave up on your candidacy to run as the President for

    2 the next term. Did you give up on it yourself or did

    3 you lose elections?

    4 A. I lost the election. I was the candidate of

    5 the Serb Democratic Party in 1993.

    6 Q. So you didn't give up?

    7 A. No, I didn't give up and I had never thought

    8 of that.

    9 Q. Finally, one further question: You knew

    10 Slavko Dokmanovic, you said. Do you know that

    11 something happened in Ovcara?

    12 A. At the time of these events that we're

    13 speaking of, we didn't know anything about it.

    14 Q. And later?

    15 A. And later we heard from Croatian television

    16 and press that something very terrible had happened at

    17 Ovcara, according to --

    18 THE INTERPRETER: We didn't hear part of the

    19 statement made by the witness.

    20 A. Also some of the people we knew -- we asked

    21 them whether they knew something about this and no one

    22 said that they knew anything about it.

    23 Q. If I were to tell you now that Slavko

    24 Dokmanovic is being accused of having been at Ovcara

    25 during that period of time while you had this

  50. 1 government meeting and that he took part in the killing

    2 of all these people, having known Slavko Dokmanovic,

    3 would you believe all of this?

    4 A. I am 100 percent sure that that is not

    5 correct, and no one who knows Slavko Dokmanovic could

    6 believe a thing like that. I can even mention to the

    7 court that I heard rumours that some idiots and fools,

    8 I don't know how to call these people, who did this,

    9 said that they would -- now Slavko is being accused of

    10 Ovcara, and had they been there, they would have killed

    11 him too.

    12 MR. FILA: Thank you. No further questions,

    13 Your Honour.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. We are now going

    15 to take a 20-minute break, and after that, there will

    16 be cross-examination.

    17 --- Recess taken at 3.29 p.m.

    18 --- On resuming at 3.56 p.m.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Williamson?

    20 Cross-examined by Mr. Williamson.

    21 Q. Mr. Hadzic, on the 20th of November of 1991,

    22 what time did you arrive at VELEPROMET?

    23 A. I said that I arrived sometime after 1.00

    24 p.m., probably around 1.30 p.m.

    25 Q. And where were you before that time on the

  51. 1 20th of November?

    2 A. In Erdut.

    3 Q. And what was the route that you took from

    4 Erdut to VELEPROMET?

    5 A. I didn't really think about it, but I think I

    6 came via Borovo Naselje to Vukovar.

    7 Q. Did you go through Dalj and Borovo Selo?

    8 A. It is only logical, Erdut, Dalj, Borovo Selo,

    9 Borovo Naselje, Vukovar.

    10 Q. Did you have any difficulty making it through

    11 that route on that day?

    12 A. There were some problems. You couldn't

    13 really get by. It was quite a terrible site. But

    14 there weren't any obstacles on the road, as far as I

    15 can remember.

    16 Q. And you didn't encounter any fighting on the

    17 way between Erdut and VELEPROMET, I take it?

    18 A. No, no. I didn't see any direct fighting,

    19 although in Vukovar I heard sporadic gunfire.

    20 Q. Now, when you arrived in Vukovar, did you go

    21 directly to VELEPROMET or did you drive around the city

    22 at all?

    23 A. First we came to VELEPROMET.

    24 Q. And how had you informed the people that they

    25 were to be at this meeting? Was it at the meeting the

  52. 1 prior day in Erdut?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. And what about people like Ilija Koncarevic

    4 who were not present at the meeting in Erdut; how did

    5 you make him aware of this meeting?

    6 A. I only called Ilija on the phone.

    7 Q. And where did you call him from?

    8 A. I don't know if I called him from Novi Sad or

    9 Erdut because there was only one telephone in Erdut.

    10 Q. And what did you tell the ministers the

    11 purpose of this meeting was to be?

    12 A. The main purpose was to show up in Vukovar

    13 and to see that they were not -- that we were not

    14 afraid, so that they would see that we were not afraid.

    15 Q. And as I understand it, this was the first

    16 meeting that your government had held in Vukovar;

    17 correct?

    18 A. That's right. It was not a session of the

    19 government, it was just a meeting. It was the first

    20 time that the government people came to Vukovar.

    21 Q. And if you can, just once again tell us what

    22 was discussed at this meeting?

    23 A. There were discussions without an agenda on a

    24 wider subject matter about supplies for the city and

    25 all these problems that the civilian rule authorities

  53. 1 should deal with. This Lieutenant Colonel from the

    2 army also spoke about prisoners of war who were there,

    3 but we did not have any jurisdiction over them. I

    4 personally was afraid and I advocated a fair trial for

    5 the prisoners so that nothing bad would happen to them,

    6 possibly.

    7 Q. So there was then some discussion at this

    8 meeting about what was going to happen to prisoners; is

    9 that what you're saying?

    10 A. No, that is not what I'm saying. This was

    11 just mentioned. But we were not competent to discuss

    12 that.

    13 Q. Now, after the meeting concluded, how long

    14 did you remain at VELEPROMET?

    15 A. I remained at VELEPROMET very briefly, to the

    16 best of my recollection.

    17 Q. And where did you go from there?

    18 A. After that, after this interview I gave in

    19 Sid, I probably went to Novi Sad to see my family

    20 because that's where my wife and my children were.

    21 Q. So it's my understanding that you went

    22 directly from VELEPROMET to Sid; is that correct?

    23 A. Not 100 percent correct because I took a

    24 drive in the car through the centre of Vukovar. I

    25 didn't manage to go out anywhere because everything had

  54. 1 been mined. We only stopped in the centre and then we

    2 went back and headed towards Sid.

    3 Q. Now, when the fighting was going on in

    4 Eastern Slavonia in the autumn of 1991, did you have

    5 any type of military role?

    6 A. No military role. Neither I personally nor

    7 my government.

    8 Q. Can you explain again why you would wear a

    9 uniform then during this period? What was the

    10 reasoning for that?

    11 A. I can repeat what I said, and that is that

    12 the first reason was that practically all people wore

    13 uniforms, so people who wore civilian clothes were

    14 actually different. And since I was Prime Minister of

    15 this government, it would not have been decent for me

    16 to be in a dirty shirt and in a crumpled suit, and

    17 there were no possibilities of getting a clean shirt

    18 every day and having your suit ironed, so that was the

    19 main reason.

    20 Q. So this was just done because you couldn't

    21 wash clothes?

    22 A. And also, the other reason, because other

    23 people wore uniforms and had we worn civilian clothes,

    24 we would have been different from the other inhabitants

    25 in the area, so we would have caused additional revolt

  55. 1 because there was already some revolt toward certain

    2 presidents, ministers, et cetera, as we can assume.

    3 Q. Now, you say that although your uniform was

    4 similar to the one that Arkan was wearing, but it was

    5 not identical; that's correct?

    6 A. On this recording, I cannot see whether it

    7 was identical, and I don't think it's really

    8 important. I bought myself this uniform, and whether

    9 someone else bought the same uniform before or after

    10 that, I don't know, but now I can't even remember what

    11 it was like.

    12 Q. Well, in addition to the uniform, you and

    13 Arkan also seemed to be wearing very similar berets

    14 with Serb flags on them. Is there any connection

    15 there, or was this once again just another coincidence?

    16 A. Well, I don't know. We couldn't --

    17 THE INTERPRETER: We couldn't hear the rest

    18 of the answer. I'm sorry.

    19 A. The sign was the same. This was a Serb

    20 tri-coloured flag, that is the Serb sign, as far as

    21 I can see in this picture.

    22 Q. What was your affiliation with Arkan?

    23 A. Nothing special. No special affiliation. He

    24 came to fight and, well, it was said of him that he was

    25 brave, and I don't know anything else.

  56. 1 Q. Now, isn't it a fact that he had accompanied

    2 you from Erdut on that day, driving to VELEPROMET,

    3 because you expected some difficulties in getting

    4 through to Vukovar?

    5 A. We needed that. It's not that we had to

    6 penetrate through the area, but we didn't want any

    7 incidents to occur in Vukovar because Arkan had

    8 sufficient authority in order to prevent this kind of

    9 incident.

    10 Q. So did he also travel with you when you left

    11 VELEPROMET after the meeting to Sid?

    12 A. I don't remember that.

    13 Q. You don't recall who went with you from

    14 VELEPROMET to Sid?

    15 A. In the car, it was only the driver and

    16 myself, and I don't know who else was there.

    17 Q. So did you see Arkan again later that day?

    18 A. I don't know. I think that he was in Sid

    19 too, but I'm not sure about that.

    20 Q. Were you in any way associated with his

    21 paramilitary unit?

    22 A. No, not in any way was I associated with his

    23 unit. I didn't know that he had a paramilitary unit.

    24 In Serbia they could have been paramilitaries, but here

    25 he was a volunteer, and I don't know what kind of units

  57. 1 he had, military or paramilitary.

    2 Q. Well, was he part of the JNA?

    3 A. Everyone there who was fighting against

    4 Croatia which tried to secede from Yugoslavia and which

    5 attacked the JNA was, in a way, part of the JNA.

    6 Everyone who was fighting was part of the JNA, in a

    7 way.

    8 Q. And that would include Seselj's forces and

    9 Bokan's and all of these other paramilitary groups?

    10 A. During my time there, I didn't meet any of

    11 them out there, Seselj, Bokan, et cetera.

    12 Q. As president of Serb district, did you

    13 have control over elements of the Serb forces that were

    14 fighting in Eastern Slavonia?

    15 A. No, not over anyone. Only the military

    16 component.

    17 Q. Now, did you have any influence over the

    18 Territorial Defence forces?

    19 A. We did not have direct influence over the

    20 Territorial Defence, although we tried to organise

    21 these village units which were on our territory. I say

    22 "our territory," if you understand what I mean, that

    23 the district was divided into two parts, so these were

    24 these Serb villages, Trpinja, Borovo Selo, Dalj,

    25 et cetera. They had some village guards at the

  58. 1 beginning of the conflict, but later, when the JNA

    2 came, all of this was within the Yugoslav People's

    3 Army.

    4 Q. You know Stanko Vojonovic (phoen) and

    5 Miroljub Vujovic, do you not?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. And these men were Territorial Defence unit

    8 commanders, weren't they?

    9 A. I heard that only after the war. I did not

    10 know them in 1991.

    11 Q. So you had no contact with them when the

    12 fighting was going on?

    13 A. None whatsoever. I met Stanko only in 1992

    14 or 1993 in a cafe and Miroljub in 1992 when he was some

    15 kind of an official in the National Defence in the

    16 Vukovar Municipality.

    17 Q. So you're saying you met Miroljub Vujovic

    18 only in 1992?

    19 A. Yes, I knew his name and surname in 1992.

    20 Q. Well, isn't it a fact that just a week after

    21 the events at Ovcara, on the 28th of November, your

    22 government appointed Miroljub Vujovic to the Executive

    23 Council responsible for running the City of Vukovar and

    24 that this was an order signed by you?

    25 A. Possibly. It may be so, but I didn't know

  59. 1 him then. This proposal was made to me by the

    2 President of the Municipality of Vukovar, and I

    3 accepted that because I didn't know everyone else

    4 personally either.

    5 Q. And who was it that had made this proposal?

    6 A. If that's what you say so, but I don't

    7 remember now that Miroljub was there, but I believe

    8 you, that he was there, Srbobran Bibic, who was

    9 President of the Executive Council of the Municipality

    10 of Vukovar.

    11 Q. Now, in the days after the 20th of November,

    12 there was a lot of talk in Vukovar about what had

    13 happened at Ovcara, wasn't there?

    14 A. I was not in Vukovar, and I didn't hear such

    15 stories in Vukovar. I heard stories about Ovcara, as I

    16 told the Defence attorney, my previous conversation

    17 through the Croatian media, but nobody corroborated it

    18 to me then. I even went to Sremska Mitrovica, to the

    19 prison there, to see the prisoners, and I was pleased

    20 to have seen people who were alive there. So I thought

    21 that the stories about Ovcara were lies because the

    22 Croatian media spoke of several thousand victims at

    23 Ovcara.

    24 Q. I mean certainly in your position as

    25 President of the Serb District, you would have heard

  60. 1 something about the mass execution of 200 or more men

    2 on territory under your control? No?

    3 A. In your opinion, probably I should have heard

    4 about it, but, regrettably, I did not hear about it.

    5 It would have been a good thing had I heard about it

    6 beforehand because I could have prevented it from

    7 happening, and had I heard about it afterwards, I would

    8 have made an effort to have these people arrested and

    9 held accountable.

    10 Q. Mr. Hadzic, I'm going to put it to you that

    11 you did know in advance what was going to happen to

    12 these people, and that, in fact, their fate was decided

    13 at this government meeting at VELEPROMET on the 20th of

    14 November.

    15 A. Sir, you are alleging something that is quite

    16 wrong. I am here under oath, and I swear that we

    17 didn't know what would happen at Ovcara and what did

    18 happen at Ovcara, and I swear not only to you, but I

    19 swear before God.

    20 Q. So these men were not held at the JNA

    21 barracks for a couple of hours while your government

    22 deliberated their fate at VELEPROMET? That is your

    23 testimony?

    24 A. I am telling you that. I did not know that

    25 they were at the barracks. I heard that there were

  61. 1 prisoners in VELEPROMET who were later taken to

    2 Mitrovica, and all of these events that you are talking

    3 about, the hospital, Vukovar, I heard about that now,

    4 after all of these events, only a few years ago.

    5 Q. Now, you've indicated that you gave an

    6 interview in Sid on the evening of the 20th of

    7 November; correct?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. At this time --

    10 A. That is true, yes, I gave an interview, and

    11 you can see that.

    12 MR. WILLIAMSON: At this time I would ask

    13 that that be shown, and I have transcripts, please,

    14 which I can provide to the court and to the Defence.

    15 And if this can be shown, please? I would

    16 ask that the clip of the video be shown at this time,

    17 please.

    18 Your Honour, I understand it will be just a

    19 moment.

    20 (Videotape played)

    21 (Interpreter's translation of interview between Nino

    22 Brajovic and Goran Hadzic)

    23 NB: Here we are in Sid, on the road to

    24 Vukovar. The Prime Minister of Slavonia, Baranja and

    25 Western Srem, Goran Hadzic, has just arrived from

  62. 1 Vukovar. We have been informed that you held a meeting

    2 of the government in Vukovar. What were the main

    3 resolutions?

    4 GH: This was the first meeting of the

    5 government in the future capital of our Serb

    6 District of Slavonia, Baranja and Western Srem. In

    7 addition, to the resolutions and the normalisation of

    8 life and the restoration to some kind of normalcy, our

    9 main resolution was that the disdained Ustashas, whom

    10 we have captured, would not leave the territory of the

    11 Serb District of Slavonia, Baranja and Western Srem,

    12 that they cannot be transported to Serbia, because

    13 Serbia is not at war and that the army which helped

    14 us capture them ... they are not soldiers. They are

    15 paramilitary formations and they can be tried only by

    16 these people here, that is, the people of our Serb

    17 District which has been recognised, and which has its

    18 own judiciary. We have also a second instance court,

    19 and we could possibly have a third instance court at

    20 the federation level of the second Yugoslavia. We also

    21 have our district and municipal courts. We have agreed

    22 with the military authorities to have these Ustashas

    23 detained in our detention camps, here in the

    24 surroundings of Vukovar. Since one group of Ustashas

    25 has already been taken to Sremska Mitrovica, I have

  63. 1 personally taken the responsibility to bring these

    2 people - if that is the right term to use for them at

    3 all, "people" - to bring them back and put those who

    4 are guilty on trial. Those who are not guilty will, of

    5 course, be released and we will let them rebuild our

    6 town with us.

    7 NB: According to your estimate, how many

    8 members of the Croatian paramilitary formations are

    9 there? Our data vary. Two hundred people surrendered

    10 two days ago. Today, about one thousand surrendered at

    11 the Borovo agricultural farm. What is the exact

    12 figure?

    13 GH: I think the figure is somewhere around

    14 three thousand Ustashas in uniforms, although there is

    15 a large number of them hiding among the civilians.

    16 There are also a lot of good people. Our main task is

    17 to investigate this and prevent the innocent from being

    18 punished or persecuted. It is better to have a guilty

    19 person get away with it than to punish an innocent

    20 person. This is our task and now that we have the law,

    21 the police, and other organisations, we will do our

    22 utmost to prevent the persecution of ...

    23 NB: Could you tell us in brief something

    24 about the implementation of the civilian authorities in

    25 Vukovar?

  64. 1 GH: We have made our first step today. We

    2 prepared for this event. Unfortunately, I was too big

    3 an optimist. I did not think Vukovar was so badly

    4 destroyed. When I saw it today ... this is, really, it

    5 cannot be described with words, but there is literally

    6 no house that is left undamaged. There are even

    7 corpses lying on the streets. We should first have the

    8 Ministry of Health, that is Agriculture, that is

    9 veterinarians and doctors do something to prevent the

    10 infection from spreading. They should do something to

    11 remove the bodies from the streets. Then the

    12 normalisation should follow, as we planned. Today I

    13 have spoken to the people who have borne the brunt of

    14 the war. They are the inhabitants of Petrova Gora

    15 settlement, without whom our battle for Vukovar would

    16 be lost. I would like to take this opportunity to

    17 thank them for everything they did and to

    18 establish organs that will agree with representatives

    19 of these people to set up civilian authorities in the

    20 town ... It has been agreed that there will be no

    21 military authorities in Vukovar, maybe only for a few

    22 days, but the plan is to introduce civilian

    23 authorities maybe only for a few days.

    24 NB: Does that mean that you will soon take

    25 off your uniform?

  65. 1 GH: Well, I am a man, a representative of

    2 the Serb people, and if the Serb people who have

    3 chosen me think that we should not further expand the

    4 borders we have established, I will take my uniform

    5 off. I personally think I should remain in uniform for

    6 some time because the Serb borders are much farther

    7 away than where they are at the moment.

    8 NB: Thank you.

    9 MR. WILLIAMSON: We can stop the tape at this

    10 point.

    11 Q. Mr. Hadzic, what do you mean when you say

    12 "our main resolution was that the detained Ustashas

    13 would not leave the territory of the Serb district

    14 of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem?

    15 A. I said this only for the purposes of

    16 political marketing and in order to promote the

    17 government which did not have support among the people,

    18 and, if you noticed, my conclusion in the latter part

    19 was to ease tensions and to have some kind of

    20 normalisation and to let people go, and I tried to

    21 prevent a possible euphoria among the people and I

    22 called upon all to act with reserve.

    23 Q. So it's easing tensions by saying that you

    24 felt like you should expand your borders further?

    25 A. Mr. Prosecutor, as far as the borders of the

  66. 1 Serb lands are concerned and my opinion how far the

    2 Serb state should go, I don't think that this is the

    3 right place to discuss that. If you think it is, we

    4 can discuss it.

    5 Q. Well, I'm just asking you a question. You

    6 have indicated that you were trying to ease tensions.

    7 Do you think that it in any way eased tensions by

    8 having a pronouncement from the president of the

    9 Serb district that you felt like the Serb border

    10 should be expanded further, obviously at the expense of

    11 the Croats? How did this ease tensions?

    12 A. I don't know. To whose detriment it would be

    13 if somebody took your house? Would it be to your

    14 detriment or to the detriment of the person who took

    15 your house away from you? I was talking about the

    16 territory that belonged to the Serb people and then

    17 this went to the detriment of the Serb people. You

    18 don't really need a lot of -- you don't really need to

    19 look into the future very much; you can see now what

    20 the situation is like in the Serb district.

    21 And as I was speaking about this, as I spoke

    22 about tension, I was speaking about prisoners, I wasn't

    23 talking about borders. Borders have nothing to do with

    24 these tensions. The Americans killed about ten people

    25 in Texas when they wanted to change borders. And this

  67. 1 is Serb land; it was never Croatia. However,

    2 unfortunately, the world decided differently, and I

    3 don't want to go into that now.

    4 Q. Well, if this was just an effort on your part

    5 to enhance the position of your government, why was it

    6 necessary to go into all this detail about prisoners?

    7 Wouldn't it have been enough just to say, "We had a

    8 meeting, we have made resolutions to establish normal

    9 life in Vukovar," and then to go on to say that, "We've

    10 established ourselves as the government"? Why go into

    11 all this detail about prisoners? What was the

    12 reasoning for that?

    13 A. What is normal now and what seems normal to

    14 people now was not normal then, and I had to say

    15 something so that, as the saying in our country goes,

    16 "The wolf would not be hungry and that all the sheep

    17 would remain intact too."

    18 Q. What about your statement that you said you

    19 had taken personal responsibility to bring people back

    20 from Sremska Mitrovica? This was also for public

    21 consumption?

    22 A. Let me say this. We never asked for this and

    23 we never could have gotten it. They had adequate

    24 accommodation there, as adequate as can be in prison,

    25 and most of them or, rather, all of them were released,

  68. 1 according to the decision made by then Prime Minister

    2 Milan Panic (phoen).

    3 Q. Now, we know that, in fact, that some of the

    4 "detained Ustashas," as you refer to them, did not

    5 leave the territory, the Serb district; isn't that

    6 correct?

    7 A. We know that now, but then as far as the

    8 Ustashe are concerned, I have to explain something to

    9 you. Perhaps you are not familiar with this. The

    10 Serb and the Croatian sides -- rather -- used very

    11 offensive vocabulary about one another. The Croats

    12 called us Chetniks, slaughterers, and we call them

    13 Ustashas and fascists. And at a round of negotiations

    14 with the Croatian delegation, when I was president of

    15 the Republic of Srpska Krajina, I agreed I think with

    16 Mr. Hoda Sardonic (phoen), I think it was him, that we

    17 get rid of that kind of vocabulary and that we talk

    18 normally. But this was at the end of 1991, and there

    19 was a lot of tension on both sides, among the people,

    20 and it was normal vocabulary then, although I can see

    21 now that it was not normal vocabulary.

    22 Q. And the fact that these decisions and these

    23 meetings and these interviews are now being brought out

    24 into public and into the light of day has nothing to do

    25 with you saying that this was just for public

  69. 1 consumption at that time?

    2 A. I don't quite understand your question, but

    3 if I have understood you correctly, what I said,

    4 regardless of the government decision, I was only able

    5 on the -- answer to the government why I said something

    6 that was not agreed upon. I thought this to be a

    7 political move, and I made my own decisions and did not

    8 suffer any consequences afterwards.

    9 Q. Now, you had said that you needed to do this

    10 to satisfy the people. Was there pressure on your

    11 government from the people to do something about

    12 Croatian criminals, Croatian war criminals?

    13 A. If you followed my statement, and I'm sure

    14 you did, then you were able to see that I was very

    15 sceptical with regard to the number of Croatian

    16 criminals and that I said finally that the criminals

    17 should be punished, but the vast majority of the people

    18 were not criminals. It was difficult to say to the

    19 Serbs that it was not the -- not all the Croats were to

    20 blame, although a significant portion were, because in

    21 that case, I could have been killed by a bullet fired

    22 from the Serb side.

    23 So something had to be said to pacify the

    24 people, pacify the people and prevent evil.

    25 Q. Now, when you say that those who were guilty

  70. 1 would be put on trial, guilty of what?

    2 A. For the killing of the Serbs. I don't know

    3 whether you know that a lot of Serbs died at the very

    4 beginning when Croatia attacked the Serbs, when it

    5 attacked the military barracks, army barracks, and when

    6 it set fire to Serb enterprises, newspapers, and so

    7 on and so forth. Serb houses were fired at,

    8 prominent Serbs were killed and thrown into the river.

    9 So I advocated what you advocate today, and I hope that

    10 you will be just in your advocation (sic) of that, that

    11 is, to bring criminals to trial, and you can only

    12 determine who is guilty at a court, as I said.

    13 Q. Well, let me ask you this: There were a lot

    14 of Croats killed as well in Vukovar during the course

    15 of this battle, and certainly on the 20th of November.

    16 What efforts did you make, or your government make, to

    17 put anyone on trial for those crimes?

    18 A. First of all, we did not know about these

    19 crimes at a time when something could be done about

    20 it. As the President of the Serb Krajina -- Srpska

    21 Krajina region, I wanted to determine the truth, and I

    22 signed a decision, apart from the decision of the Knin

    23 government, which prohibited exhumation. I allowed

    24 this to take place, as President for, exhumation to

    25 start. I don't know why it was not started. And when

  71. 1 I was President of the Serb district of Slavonia,

    2 Baranja and Western Srem in 1996, and I shall do

    3 everything in my power to bring the culprits to

    4 justice.

    5 MR. FILA: Your Honours, we spoke about the

    6 President. Could he please say when he is thinking

    7 about the function of President, because there was the

    8 government where Slavko Dokmanovic was a Minister and

    9 then you have the other government where Mr. Dokmanovic

    10 was not president. So when you ask about the function

    11 of President, would you make it clear what you are

    12 thinking of? This is no objection; it's just in the

    13 interests of detail and precision.

    14 MR. WILLIAMSON: I'm not sure that I follow

    15 exactly what Mr. Fila is saying. I just asked: At the

    16 point that -- did his government at any point take any

    17 steps to prosecute people? I'm not sure what

    18 Mr. Fila's point is.

    19 MR. FILA: I understood you. But you have

    20 the government holding a meeting, you have the

    21 government which met on the 20th of November, 1991, in

    22 VELEPROMET. In that government, Slavko Dokmanovic was

    23 Minister of Agriculture. Then you have the other

    24 government, and Goran Hadzic was President -- Prime

    25 Minister. Then you have the government of the Srpska

  72. 1 Krajina where Slavko Dokmanovic was not a Minister but

    2 Goran Hadzic was Prime Minister of that government

    3 too. And then you have a third government which

    4 allowed the exhumation at Ovcara, and Goran was the

    5 Prime Minister once again of that third government and

    6 Dokmanovic was not Minister.

    7 Does that make -- have I made myself clear?

    8 So when you ask what the government of Goran Hadzic

    9 took -- what steps it took, I'm interested in knowing

    10 which one of the three governments you have in mind:

    11 The first, where Mr. Dokmanovic was a Minister, or some

    12 other government, subsequent government?

    13 Does that make it clear?

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.


    16 Q. Very well, Mr. Hadzic. Let me ask you, first

    17 of all: At any point in time, in any of these

    18 governments that you were associated with, were any

    19 steps taken to prosecute people for war crimes against

    20 Croats in Vukovar in 1991?

    21 A. Of all the people that committed crimes in

    22 the territory under our competency, we always initiated

    23 procedure, both in Baranja and Slavonia. And while

    24 Slavko Dokmanovic was Minister in that first

    25 government, I, as the Prime Minister -- and nobody from

  73. 1 the government knew about this, and I don't even now

    2 know who was responsible for the Ovcara affair, but I

    3 know who was not guilty, who was not guilty, and that

    4 is the man sitting here amongst us today. He is quite

    5 definitely not guilty.

    6 Q. Well, how can you make that statement if you

    7 say you don't know who was guilty? How can you say

    8 that he was not guilty?

    9 A. I know 100 percent that he was not guilty

    10 because when -- at the time that he is being accused of

    11 this, he was physically not there. He could not have

    12 been there physically.

    13 Q. Were you with him physically at that time?

    14 A. I was with him until 3.00 p.m.

    15 Q. But you don't know where he was after 3.00

    16 p.m.; is that correct?

    17 A. I did not know that until this particular

    18 trial and proceedings, but in contacts with witnesses,

    19 I learned that he was constantly with somebody.

    20 Q. So you have been talking to other witnesses

    21 in this case?

    22 A. In the case I talked informally, not here but

    23 there, because after Dokmanovic's imprisonment, we

    24 discussed the matter, and everybody was quite clear on

    25 the fact that Slavko could not have been there.

  74. 1 Q. Now, on the evening of the 27th of June of

    2 1997, after you found out about Mr. Dokmanovic's

    3 arrest, you fled from Eastern Slavonia in a boat across

    4 the Danube into Serbia, didn't you?

    5 A. No.

    6 Q. You did not --

    7 A. That is a lie. I heard that announced on

    8 Croatian semi-official news. With my son in my car, I

    9 crossed Erdut and I went to Novi Sad. I did not flee

    10 and I'm not afraid of the Croats. I hope that they

    11 will bring to trial those who are guilty as I am more

    12 afraid of those who -- grudges of other kinds.

    13 Q. But it is a fact that you left on the same

    14 day of Mr. Dokmanovic's arrest; correct?

    15 A. That is a fact which has nothing to do with

    16 it. It can have something to do with it and need not

    17 have. It's got nothing to do with it. It does not say

    18 anything of itself, if my son, who is a minor and lives

    19 in Novi Sad, and I myself left for Novi Sad. That is a

    20 fact in itself.

    21 Q. So the fact that another member of your

    22 November 1991 government had been arrested had nothing

    23 to do with your decision to leave your lifetime home?

    24 A. I always lived in Pacetin, but because of

    25 integration of this region into Croatia, I do not wish

  75. 1 to live in Croatia, and I left Croatia for that reason.

    2 Q. And it was just a coincidence that it

    3 happened on the same evening after Mr. Dokmanovic was

    4 arrested?

    5 A. Mr. Prosecutor, if I were to follow your

    6 logic and to think about matters according to your

    7 logic, then the indictment against Dokmanovic, he came

    8 back voluntarily to Croatia, which means that he is not

    9 guilty; and according to your logic, if I fled, that

    10 would mean that I was guilty. I am speaking -- I am

    11 saying this following on from your logic.

    12 Q. I'm asking you: It's just a coincidence

    13 then?

    14 A. It could have been a coincidence and it need

    15 not have been a coincidence. I don't know how somebody

    16 else's mind works, particularly those who do not know

    17 the problems inherent in the situation.

    18 Q. Well, I'm not asking about someone else's

    19 mind, I'm asking you about your own mind.

    20 Now, I suppose that it was also a

    21 coincidence --

    22 A. That is why I said it. I don't know how your

    23 mind works, and I don't know why -- I did not know why

    24 Slavko was arrested and what the charges brought

    25 against him were at the time.

  76. 1 Q. And so it was also just a coincidence that

    2 these 200 men were held at the JNA barracks while your

    3 government deliberated; when your government meeting

    4 finishes, they are then taken to Ovcara and killed?

    5 That was pure coincidence and had nothing to do with

    6 what went on at your meeting at VELEPROMET?

    7 A. Those are tendentious conclusions. I am

    8 sorry about those men that died. I tell you that one

    9 day previously, we decided to come to Vukovar, and the

    10 fact that something happened apart from this is not our

    11 fault. We did not know about it.

    12 MR. WILLIAMSON: No further questions.

    13 A. And you can call that a coincidence, if you

    14 like.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Fila?

    16 MR. FILA: Your Honours, I don't know in what

    17 way the Prosecution is deducing the conclusion that at

    18 the same time that the government meeting was held and

    19 that people were held in the barracks, whereas

    20 witnesses say that that was not the case. The

    21 witnesses brought forward by Mr. Williamson. So this

    22 is an erroneous conclusion, according to all the

    23 systems of the world.

    24 I did not raise any objections when he asked

    25 his questions -- he's free to ask anything he wants --

  77. 1 but let him ask the truth, if you say that it is the

    2 object of us to ascertain the truth.

    3 Before 2.00 p.m., the buses were at Ovcara.

    4 Both witnesses have testified to that --

    5 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I must object.

    6 If Mr. Fila has questions, he should ask them, but if

    7 this is his closing argument then ...

    8 MR. FILA: The argument is that --

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila, I think

    10 Mr. Williamson is right. These are your views, your

    11 arguments. Have you got any questions to ask the

    12 witness?

    13 MR. FILA: I have a question for the

    14 witness.

    15 Re-examined by Mr. Fila

    16 Q. Did he leave the same day when Dokmanovic was

    17 arrested? Did he leave his place of residence on the

    18 same day?

    19 A. Could you repeat the question?

    20 Q. Did you leave, move out of Pacetin, your

    21 native town? Not just left for Novi Sad, but did you

    22 move out, everybody leave, your children, your wife --

    23 A. Half the population moved out, and 30.000

    24 Serbs left the district, and that is something we

    25 should know here.

  78. 1 Q. Yes, they do. The question is: Did you move

    2 out because of Slavko Dokmanovic's arrest, the same

    3 day, or did you go to Novi Sad with your son as you

    4 would have anyway?

    5 A. As I did on previous occasions, but I moved

    6 out definitely because of the policy waged against the

    7 Serb people.

    8 Q. But not on that particular day. You did not

    9 pick up your things and leave and move out on that

    10 particular day.

    11 Do you know whether some buses were in front

    12 of the JNA barracks while you were holding your

    13 government meeting?

    14 THE INTERPRETER: I'm afraid I didn't hear

    15 that. Interruptions there.

    16 Q. So you heard -- can you hear me? Will you

    17 answer the question once again? You first heard of

    18 this for the first time at this trial?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. At this trial held here today.

    21 THE INTERPRETER: I'm afraid we can't hear.

    22 I'm sorry, it's interrupted speech.

    23 MR. FILA:

    24 Q. Let us repeat once again slowly: You

    25 maintain that you heard of this for the first time,

  79. 1 that is, that the buses left the barracks for Ovcara,

    2 you have heard that for the first time here today at

    3 this trial?

    4 A. Yes, but that's not essential. The essential

    5 point is that people were killed.

    6 Q. Up to now --

    7 THE INTERPRETER: Would Mr. Fila repeat?

    8 MR. FILA:

    9 Q. Do you know whether the buses were in front

    10 of the army barracks on that particular day?

    11 A. No, I don't.

    12 MR. FILA: Thank you, Mr. Hadzic.

    13 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Hadzic, would you help us

    14 with this, please? The meeting on the 20th of November

    15 you said was attended by the Lieutenant Colonel, and

    16 you said that the Lieutenant Colonel spoke about the

    17 prisoners of war. Can you help us as to what he said

    18 about the prisoners of war at that meeting?

    19 A. Your Honour, I'll do everything to try and

    20 help you.

    21 The Lieutenant Colonel said that the

    22 prisoners of war were a problem of the Yugoslav

    23 People's Army and that he does not recognise any of our

    24 courts and that we have no competences there, which

    25 was, in actual fact, the case, and that was everything

  80. 1 that was said about the prisoners of war. What we

    2 discussed were the bread supplies and the civilian

    3 situation.

    4 JUDGE MAY: You told us that you advocated a

    5 fair trial for them, to say that nothing bad would

    6 happen to them. Was that at the meeting or was it

    7 later that you advocated that?

    8 A. For this -- I advocate this attitude right

    9 from the very day that I was born. And during the

    10 events that we're talking about, about the 20th, I did

    11 not know that something bad was being -- got ready for

    12 some individuals, but we just discussed the possible

    13 problems that could arise.

    14 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Thank you.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Hadzic, you may assist us

    16 in clarifying a few points which you touched upon in

    17 your testimony.

    18 I understand from what you said before that

    19 you, as the Prime Minister or President of the

    20 government, convened the meeting of the government for

    21 the 20th of November at Vukovar. So how did you get in

    22 touch or who told the Lieutenant Colonel of the JNA who

    23 attended the meeting? How was he, in a way, asked to

    24 participate in this meeting? By whom?

    25 A. They did not know that this meeting would be

  81. 1 held because it was not officially convened. It was

    2 a -- and the Lieutenant Colonel happened to be there,

    3 and we heard that the commander of the town of Vukovar

    4 was there, and then we had the meeting in that way

    5 because we thought that it was somebody with the

    6 necessary competences. But as I said, he was head of

    7 the background formations. That is all that we saw in

    8 Vukovar of the military authorities.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Did I understand

    10 you correctly when you said that the meeting which

    11 lasted for about one hour was chaired by the Lieutenant

    12 colonel?

    13 A. Yes. At the beginning, the Lieutenant

    14 Colonel and myself sat up at the rostrum, but as I

    15 saw --

    16 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, this is

    17 intermittent speech.

    18 A. But later on, I stepped down to sit with the

    19 Ministers. So the meeting did not have an official

    20 character. I did not chair it.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: Didn't you find it odd that

    22 the meeting was being chaired not by you, the Prime

    23 Minister or President of the government -- after all,

    24 it was a meeting of the government -- but by somebody

    25 who did not belong to the government, namely a

  82. 1 Lieutenant Colonel of the JNA? Did you complain about

    2 that or did you say anything?

    3 A. Your Honour, we didn't -- no meeting of the

    4 government was held. We just gathered together --

    5 THE INTERPRETER: This is very difficult to

    6 follow. It's intermittent speech.


    8 A. We found ourselves -- we met to talk. It was

    9 not a government meeting. It was not an official

    10 formal government meeting. We just met to discuss

    11 matters. Do you understand me?

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Thank you. And you

    13 said in response to the question put by Judge May that

    14 the Lieutenant Colonel spoke of the POWs, the prisoners

    15 of war, and their sort. Did he also address the issue

    16 of what to do with the civilians who had been taken

    17 prisoner, civilians, not armed people, not combatants,

    18 those civilians who had been taken prisoner by the

    19 occupying army, by the JNA or other people?

    20 A. The JNA at the time could not have been an

    21 occupying army because it was still Yugoslav territory,

    22 and when we discussed the prisoners of war, we did not

    23 divide them into military or civilian. They were

    24 civilians but --

    25 THE INTERPRETER: I'm afraid I can't follow.

  83. 1 A. They offered resistance. We did not have any

    2 competency to decide upon their fate. But we saw them,

    3 part of them were in the VELEPROMET warehouse. I heard

    4 that they were there.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Do I --

    6 THE INTERPRETER: I'm afraid we didn't hear

    7 who was there.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Could you please

    9 specify who was there because we didn't hear part of

    10 your reply. You were talking of people who were at


    12 A. Some civilians, Serbs and Croats, a large

    13 group of people. I don't know everybody who was

    14 there. I recognised a young boy who was from my

    15 village, and I said hello to him, but I didn't know the

    16 others.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: I see. So to go back again

    18 to what the Lieutenant Colonel said. You pointed out

    19 that he did not refer to combatants or non-combatants

    20 taken prisoner, but generally speaking, to all those

    21 who had been detained by the JNA, whether they were

    22 civilians or people fighting, armed and fighting as

    23 combatants; did he refer to both categories? I'm

    24 speaking of people detained by the JNA.

    25 A. Not very much was mentioned. It was a sort

  84. 1 of collective group because we were not able to

    2 determine who the actual people were. Some sort of

    3 procedure would have been necessary to determine this.

    4 And it is the court, up to the court, to determine

    5 matters of this kind, as you are doing here today, here

    6 and now.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Thank you.

    8 Mr. Hadzic, at one point you said before that, and I

    9 quote your words: "Anybody fighting against the Croats

    10 was part of the JNA," when a question was put to you

    11 about the role of the paramilitary. So do you say that

    12 anybody fighting against the Croats was part of the

    13 JNA? Do you mean to say by that that all those people,

    14 including paramilitary units fighting against the

    15 Croats, were under the control of the JNA?

    16 A. I can't say that I answered a concrete

    17 question posed to me by the Prosecutor, and I talked

    18 about the people that I knew were under the command of

    19 the JNA. But under the command and under the control,

    20 is that the same thing? I don't think it is the same

    21 thing, to be under the command or under the control.

    22 But they had nothing to do with the government; that is

    23 one thing that I can maintain.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You also said,

    25 when a question was put to you about why you were

  85. 1 wearing a military uniform, you said, and I quote your

    2 words: You were wearing a military uniform "to be

    3 different from the other people in the area."

    4 Could you please elaborate on this particular

    5 point? Why did you feel that it was necessary for you

    6 to be different from the other people in the area?

    7 Just a point of clarification.

    8 A. I'm sorry. It seems to me that there was a

    9 mistranslation. I wore the uniform not to be different

    10 from the people in the area, because everybody wore

    11 uniforms and that's why I wore a uniform too. So that

    12 was one of the reasons. And I mentioned the other

    13 ones, so that I could change my clothes, et cetera.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: I see. You are right.

    15 Probably I got it wrong. Yes, yes. You probably said

    16 not to be different from the other people in the area.

    17 Why were you keen not to be different from the other

    18 people in the area? Because I understand that quite a

    19 few people were wearing civilian clothes, including a

    20 witness who testified before you this afternoon and who

    21 also attended the meeting of the government in Vukovar,

    22 at VELEPROMET.

    23 A. It depends on the possibilities. I bought

    24 that uniform, and it is the question of my political

    25 assessment at that time, whether it was better for me

  86. 1 to appear in front of the people in a uniform and to

    2 have positive reactions towards the government in that

    3 way because I think that at that time, had I worn a tie

    4 and a suit, as I am wearing now, I couldn't have done

    5 the little I managed to do.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: Do you mean to say that -- I

    7 mean, the fact of wearing a uniform gave you authority

    8 and conveyed to other people the idea that you were a

    9 person who was wielding power and the authority of a

    10 Prime Minister.

    11 A. No, on the contrary. That is not what I am

    12 trying to say. It is the opposite, as a matter of

    13 fact. On the uniform, I didn't have any insignia, and

    14 I wanted to show the people that I was the same as them

    15 but that I did hold the post of Prime Minister, but

    16 that they could not see on the basis of the uniform.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. One final

    18 question which is a minor question. We saw on a

    19 videotape that during the meeting you went out a couple

    20 of times, or at least once, to give an interview to a

    21 foreign reporter. Do you remember who this foreign

    22 reporter was to whom you gave an interview?

    23 A. I can't remember. Although I saw the

    24 picture, I can't remember. I can't remember. As if I

    25 had never seen him in my life.

  87. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    2 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: I understand there is no

    4 objection to the witness being released.

    5 Mr. Goran Hadzic, thank you for testifying.

    6 You may now be released.

    7 (Witness withdrew)

    8 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, before we

    9 recess, just very briefly, I failed to enter those

    10 exhibits that we misplaced, so I would like at this

    11 time to tender the video as Prosecutor's Exhibit 205,

    12 the transcript in Serb as 205A, and the transcript

    13 in English as 205B.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I see there is no

    15 objection from Mr. Fila. They are admitted in

    16 evidence.

    17 I think we should now take our recess, and we

    18 will start again tomorrow at 9.30. I understand we

    19 have to stop at 11.00 sharp, or even five to 11.00, so

    20 that Mr. Fila may meet the members of the ACBQ. I saw

    21 on a programme that tomorrow you have a meeting with

    22 people from New York, from 11.00 to 11.20.

    23 MR. FILA: That was the day after tomorrow.

    24 It's on Wednesday, to the best of my knowledge. The

    25 day after tomorrow.

  88. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: You're right.

    2 MR. FILA: But we don't have to interrupt the

    3 proceedings because my colleague will stay on.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Wonderful. All

    5 right. So we will resume tomorrow at 9.30 sharp.

    6 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at

    7 5.02 p.m. to be reconvened Tuesday,

    8 26th May, 1998, at 9.30 a.m.