1 Tuesday, 7 December 2004
2 [Initial Appearance]
3 [Open session]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 10.03 a.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. Madam Registrar, would you please call
7 the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-29/1-I, the Prosecutor versus
9 Dragomir Milosevic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Mr. Milosevic, can you hear me in a language you understand?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Milosevic.
14 I'd like to have the appearances. Prosecution first.
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Good morning, Your Honour. For the
16 Prosecution, we have here trial attorney Prashanti Mahindaratne, and my
17 name is Hildegard Uertz-Retzlaff, and we are accompanied by the case
18 manager, Lakshmie Walpita.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Uertz-Retzlaff.
20 For the Prosecution -- for the Defence. I apologise.
21 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. I
22 represent the accused this morning, General Milosevic. My name is
23 Stephane Bourgon, attorney-at-law from Montreal, Canada. Thank you,
24 Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.
1 Mr. Milosevic, I'd first like to explain to you -- you may remain
2 seated. It's not necessary to stand if I address you.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I'd first like to explain to you the purpose of this
5 hearing this morning. The first thing I'll have to do this morning is to
6 satisfy myself that your right to counsel is respected. I see that you're
7 represented by Mr. Bourgon for this initial hearing. Therefore, I take it
8 that this right is duly observed.
9 The second purpose of this hearing is that I satisfy myself that
10 you're confronted with the charges that are brought against you and that
11 you understand them. And the third purpose of this morning is to inform
12 you that you'll be called upon to enter a plea within 30 days from now on.
13 I've already established that you're assisted by counsel this
14 morning. That might not be counsel for the whole of the proceedings still
15 to come, but Mr. Bourgon will take care that you're duly represented
16 during this initial hearing and certainly will look after it once he stops
17 his work, that you're in good hands as far as representation by counsel is
19 The next issue is to satisfy myself that you're aware of the
20 charges brought against you. First of all, did you receive a copy of the
21 indictment in a language you understand, Mr. Milosevic?
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And did you have an opportunity to discuss it with
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not in detail. In fact, not today.
1 I did not.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Bourgon.
3 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, if I may. On
4 behalf of the accused, General Milosevic, I can confirm that this morning
5 I have had a first interview with Mr. Milosevic, that he has received the
6 indictment, and that he understands the contents of the charges against
7 him. I've also explained him the nature of the charges. However, it must
8 be noted that in one interview of less than one hour, it is sometimes
9 difficult to explain the ramifications of all the charges. However, I
10 feel confident to say before you this morning that he understands
11 sufficiently the indictment in order to proceed with the Initial
13 I might also add, Your Honour, that I have explained to
14 Mr. Milosevic the procedure that would be followed this morning and that I
15 have confirmed with him that since his transfer to the custody of the
16 International Tribunal on Friday, the 3rd of December, he has been placed
17 at the United Nations Detention Unit, where he has been well treated, and
18 he has no complaint whatsoever to this day, and he's ready to proceed with
19 the Initial Appearance.
20 Thank you, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.
22 Mr. Milosevic, you've heard the words spoken by counsel. Could
23 you confirm what he just said, especially that you have an understanding
24 of what is in the indictment.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I absolutely did
1 understand, including the words of my counsel, and everything is clear to
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then my next question is: Would you like the
4 indictment to be read out to you in its entirety?
5 Mr. Bourgon.
6 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Your Honour. On behalf of Mr. Milosevic,
7 this was an issue that was discussed with Mr. Milosevic, and he does not
8 wish the indictment to be read and waives his right for indictment to be
9 read. However, he has expressed that if the Trial Chamber would like to
10 proceed, that he would have no problems whatsoever with the reading of the
11 indictment. Thank you, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'd rather, then, suggest the following
13 solution: That I briefly set out what is in the indictment, because it's
14 for Mr. Milosevic to be confronted with the indictment, be confronted with
15 the charges brought against him, and to make up his mind as how to plead,
16 either today or at a later stage, and at the same time, the public should
17 be informed about the charges brought against Mr. Milosevic.
18 Just I give a very brief summary, then, of the charges brought
19 against you, Mr. Milosevic, leaving out all details. We find the details
20 in the written text of the indictment. But you're charged for your acts
21 and conduct as the commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps between the
22 10th of August, 1994, and the 21st of November, 1995, and it's split up in
23 seven charges.
24 First, under count 2, you're charged as a commander of the
25 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps for having conducted a protracted campaign of
1 shelling and sniping upon the civilian population, thus inflicting terror
2 and suffering upon that population. I say in count 2, because you're --
3 in this indictment, you're co-accused with Stanislav Galic, so therefore,
4 some of the counts specifically address him, whereas other counts address
5 you, like the one I just summarised, that is, count 2.
6 Then in counts 9 to 11, which are again addressing you and not
7 Mr. Galic, counts 9 until 11, it's especially the campaign of sniping the
8 indictment is focussing on, a campaign of sniping resulting in the killing
9 and wounding of individuals. A few examples of those sniping incidents
10 are set out in schedule 3 of the indictment. You find 20 of them, some of
11 them even on the same date, such as two incidents on the 6th of March,
13 Then in counts 12 to 14, the indictment is focussing on the
14 campaign of shelling, again resulting in killing and wounding of
15 individuals. And in schedule 4 to the indictment, some 23 examples, just
16 by way of example, therefore, not as an exhaustive enumeration of what
17 happened, are mentioned.
18 You are not only charged for having planned, instigated, ordered,
19 committed, or otherwise aided and abetted in the planning and the
20 preparation or the execution of the campaign of shelling and sniping
21 against the civilian population, which is a responsibility under Article
22 7(1) of the Statute of this Tribunal, but you're also charged for being
23 responsible for the acts and omissions of your subordinates, knowing or
24 having reason to know that these subordinates were about to commit the
25 crimes I mentioned before or had done so, you failing to take responsible
1 steps to prevent such acts or to punish the perpetrators thereof, which is
2 usually called command responsibility under Article 7(3) of the Statute.
3 This is just to summarise the charges brought against you. I take
4 it that from having read the indictment, you would agree with me that this
5 is the main core of the charges brought against you. Is that clear to
6 you, and do you agree? Mr. Milosevic, I see you're nodding yes, but for
7 the transcript, nodding doesn't appear. The interpreters cannot translate
8 your nodding.
9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters could not hear the answer.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand it fully, and I
11 know that my -- the indictment against me contains these counts.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
13 Then, Mr. Milosevic, you'll be called to -- yes, Mr. Bourgon. You
14 would like to ...
15 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Your Honour. At this stage, I would
16 simply like to confirm that further to my initial interview with
17 Mr. Milosevic, of course I have explained to him that this indictment
18 concerns two accused, as well as the fact that there are 12 charges in the
19 indictment. What is important on behalf of Mr. Milosevic this morning,
20 Your Honour, is to confirm that --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Trying to find out. Twelve charges. I have seven
22 for Mr. Milosevic.
23 MR. BOURGON: There are 12 charges all together on the indictment
24 related to both accused, and what I would like to confirm this morning is
25 that in terms of --
1 JUDGE ORIE: I thought there were 14 or am I --
2 MR. BOURGON: -- the charges I have, that counts 1, 3 to 5, and 6
3 to 8 do not relate --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. BOURGON: -- to the accused Mr. Milosevic, and that only
6 counts 2, 9 to 11, and 6 to 8 apply to Mr. Milosevic.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I'm afraid --
8 MR. BOURGON: Sorry. 9 to 11 and 12 to 14.
9 JUDGE ORIE: So that makes 14 all together and not 12. Yes.
10 Therefore, I read the numbers to him and specifically mentioned what
11 counts address him.
12 Then, Mr. Milosevic, you'll be called upon to enter a plea, which
13 means that you're invited to express yourself on whether you are guilty or
14 not guilty within 30 days. The plea you enter will have a significant
15 impact on the kind of proceedings to follow; that is, if you plead guilty,
16 then usually we'll only hear further evidence on sentencing, whereas if
17 you plead not guilty, all the evidence will be heard which is presented by
18 the Prosecution and you'll get an opportunity to present your evidence, to
19 present your case.
20 I'm not pressing you in any way to enter a plea today, but if you
21 would prefer to enter a plea today, then you're entitled to do so. At the
22 same time, I want to emphasise that it will be good to consider that well
23 and to discuss it thoroughly with counsel before you would decide to enter
24 a plea, whether it will be guilty or not guilty.
25 Is there any preference as far as the moment is concerned?
1 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Your Honour. This is a matter that was
2 discussed with Mr. Milosevic this morning, and on his behalf, I can inform
3 you that he is ready to enter a plea this morning on the counts against
4 him. Thank you, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then on the basis of the general understanding
6 of the indictment, I will now invite Madam Registrar to read out aloud
7 counts 2, 9 to 11, and 12 to 14 of the indictment.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Count 2, infliction of terror. From about 10
9 August 1994 to 21 November 1995, Dragomir Milosevic, as commander of
10 Bosnian Serb forces, comprising or attached to the Sarajevo-Romanija
11 Corps, conducted a protracted campaign of shelling and sniping upon
12 civilian areas of Sarajevo and upon the civilian population, thereby
13 inflicting terror and mental suffering upon its civilian population. By
14 his acts and omissions, Dragomir Milosevic is responsible for count 2,
15 violations of the laws or customs of war, unlawfully inflicting terror
16 upon civilians as set forth in Article 51 of the Additional Protocol 1 and
17 Article 13 of Additional Protocol 2 to the Geneva Conventions of 1949,
18 punishable under Article 3 of the Statute of the Tribunal.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Milosevic, how do you plead to count 2 of the
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Should I stand up?
22 JUDGE ORIE: You may do so. Yes, please.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then I record the plea of not guilty on count 2.
25 Madam Registrar, would you please read out counts 9 to 11 and stop
1 after 9, please.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Counts 9 to 11, sniping. Between 10 August 1994
3 and 21 November 1995, Dragomir Milosevic, as commander of Bosnian Serb
4 forces, comprising or attached to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, conducted a
5 coordinated and protracted campaign of sniper attacks upon the civilian
6 population of Sarajevo, killing and wounding a large number of civilians
7 of all ages and both sexes. Such attacks by their nature involving the
8 deliberate targeting of civilians with direct-fire weapons. Specific
9 instances of these attacks include by way of representative allegations
10 those matters set forth in the third schedule to this indictment. By his
11 acts and omissions, Dragomir Milosevic is responsible for count 9, crimes
12 against humanity, murder, punishable under Article 5(a) of the Statute of
13 the Tribunal.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Milosevic, how do you plead in respect of count
15 9, crimes against humanity, murder?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I do record the plea of not guilty on count 9.
18 Madam Registrar, count 10, please.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Count 10, crimes against humanity, inhumane acts
20 other than murder, punishable under Article 5(i) of the Statute of the
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Milosevic, how do you plead in respect of count
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I record the plea of not guilty on count 10.
1 Madam Registrar, count 11, please.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Count 11, violations of the laws or customs of
3 war, attacks on civilians, as set forth in Article 51 of Additional
4 Protocol 1, and Article 13 of Additional Protocol 2 to the Geneva
5 Conventions of 1949, punishable under Article 3 of the Statute of the
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Milosevic, how do you plead in respect of count
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Your not guilty plea is recorded in respect of count
12 Madam Registrar, would you please read the introduction to counts
13 12 to 14, and then count 12.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Counts 12 to 14, shelling. Between 10 August 1994
15 and 21 November 1995, Dragomir Milosevic, as commander of Bosnian Serb
16 forces, comprising or attached to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, conducted a
17 coordinated and protracted campaign of artillery and mortar shelling on
18 two civilian areas of Sarajevo and upon its civilian population. The
19 campaign of shelling resulted in thousands of civilians being killed or
20 injured. Specific instances of this shelling include by way of
21 representative allegations the matters set forth in the fourth schedule to
22 this indictment.
23 By his acts and omissions, Dragomir Milosevic is responsible for,
24 count 12, crimes against humanity, murder, punishable under Article 5(a)
25 of the Statute of the Tribunal.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Milosevic, how do you plead in respect of count
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please read count 13.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Count 13, crimes against humanity, inhumane acts
6 other than murder, punishable under Article 5(i) of the Statute of the
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Milosevic, how do you plead in respect of count
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Your not guilty plea is recorded in respect of count
13 Madam Registrar, count 14, please.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Count 14, violations of the laws or customs of
15 war, attacks on civilians, as set forth in Article 51 of the Additional
16 Protocol 1 and Article 13 of Additional Protocol 2 to the Geneva
17 Conventions of 1949, punishable under Article 3 of the Statute of the
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Milosevic, how do you plead in respect of count
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I record the plea of not guilty on count 14. Please
23 be seated, Mr. Milosevic.
24 We are coming at the end of this Initial Appearance, but I'd like
25 to ask you, Mr. Milosevic, although Mr. Bourgon said already something
1 about it. I'd like to ask you whether your detention situation causes you
2 to make any submissions or observations.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Everything is fine. I have no
4 comments or complaints to make, or any additional requests, and I have
5 nothing else to say.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I would like to ask you a similar thing in
7 respect of your health, and if you would prefer not to discuss any
8 health-related issue in public, we could turn into private session. So
9 it's up to you. I don't know whether you have anything to say in respect
10 of your health, but if so, you may request private session to do that.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There is no need for private
12 session. My health is fine, except for some minor problems that I have
13 because of my age. But I have nothing else to say in this respect.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Milosevic.
15 Then I'd like to address the parties and to ask whether there's
16 anything to be raised at this moment, apart from what was already raised.
17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Not from the Prosecution side, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bourgon.
19 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Your Honour. There is one matter I wish
20 to raise at this time concerning the indictment. The indictment, as you
21 will note, Your Honour, is accompanied by three schedules. There are
22 schedule -- or what is called the third schedule, which applies to count
23 number 2, as well as to counts 9 to 11, and which apply to Mr. Milosevic.
24 There is also schedule, or the fourth schedule, which applies to count 2,
25 as well as to counts 12 to 14. And then, Your Honour, there is the second
1 schedule, which, on the copy that I have, which is a copy which is drawn
2 from the Internet and may not be the official copy, but on the copy that I
3 have, it says that this schedule applies to count number 1, and the name
4 of Mr. Milosevic is not found in this schedule. I therefore take it, Mr.
5 President, Your Honour, that schedule number 2 does not apply to this
6 indictment, and I would like to have an order to that effect. Thank you,
7 Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, it is, of course, a bit
9 surprising -- yes. Perhaps you -- if you'd like to make any observation.
10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. I'm a little bit
11 surprised, because we have actually four schedules, and from the head of
12 the schedule 1, it is clear that this is related to Mr. Galic, and its
13 schedule 2, also related to Mr. Galic. So there should actually be no
14 confusion, that only schedule 3 and schedule 4 relate to Mr. Milosevic.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I think -- it seems to be perfectly clear, because
16 all the -- in the charges brought specifically against Mr. Milosevic, we
17 only find reference to schedules 3 and 4, and if you're surprised that
18 nevertheless we have 2 attached as well, of course, schedule 2, I think,
19 clearly indicates that it only concerns Mr. Galic. I think that that's
20 clear, both from the Internet version and from the original version. But
21 then, of course, the question remains why schedule 1 is not there. I
22 think, as a matter of fact, that schedule 1 is not public and that
23 schedule 1 is confidential. So, therefore, in this public version of the
24 indictment, Mr. Bourgon, schedule 1, relating to Mr. Galic, is not
25 present; number 2, which is a non-confidential schedule to the indictment,
1 you find it there, but it does not relate to Mr. Milosevic; and the
2 schedule 3 and 4, both being public and both referred to in the parts of
3 the indictment specific for Mr. Milosevic. So, therefore, I think there's
4 no confusion whatsoever. I think also if you look at the dates, and if
5 you look at how the indictment is structured in terms of time, that it
6 becomes perfectly clear that it's only annexes 3 and 4 that relate to
7 Mr. Milosevic.
8 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I take it that this is a proper understanding
9 of the indictment.
10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bourgon, under those circumstances, if there's
12 any need apart from this clarification to take any action or is it
13 sufficient to have this on record?
14 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Your Honour. This is absolutely
15 sufficient to have it on record. I was just noted that there was this
16 schedule -- a second schedule which did not relate to Mr. Milosevic and I
17 wanted to make it clear that those incidents would not at some time be
18 then held against Mr. Milosevic at any future time. Thank you,
19 Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's -- he's not charged. This is not part
21 of the charges brought against him. If that is a proper way of expressing
23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And I did choose my words quite deliberately,
25 Mr. Bourgon. And you also noted that they're different from the words you
1 used. Yes.
2 Then if there's nothing else to be raised at this moment, we'll
4 --- Whereupon the Initial Appearance
5 adjourned at 10.34 a.m.