Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 499

1 Wednesday, 17 January 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, I understand there are some

6 matters you wish to raise before the witness comes in.

7 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Excuse me.

8 So it's a problem about the intercepts. So it's about these

9 intercepts, and that was the problem. Defence wishes to contest a number

10 of these intercepts for various reasons; that was the problem. So after

11 the hearing, with my learned friend, we tried to clear up the problem.

12 There are other context-based evidence, and here I contest nothing of

13 course, contextual evidence that I don't contest their use. It's not the

14 nature of that evidence that worries me but it's the authenticity. The

15 real problem is authenticity of the intercepts, at least of the ones

16 mentioned and offered as contextual evidence by my learned colleague.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, two matters. Ordinarily, the

19 witness would not have to be absent to discuss and determine these

20 matters; and secondly, I understand that some of the intercepts you

21 accept, others you contest their authenticity. Is that so?

22 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely. I haven't said

23 anything about the witness, however. I didn't talk about the witness,

24 about the fact that he should be there or should not be there. I didn't

25 mention anything regarding that.

Page 500


2 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I really apologise about this.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, we'll just continue in the absence of the

4 witness, but could you inform the Chamber as to the basis on which you

5 contest the authenticity of the intercepts.

6 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, we didn't have

7 a lot of time, but we already have some evidence that would be used and

8 that go -- that prove that this person - and I'm talking about a specific

9 person. Of course I will not mention that name because it's a Prosecution

10 witness; it was planned as a Prosecution witness and you did not allow for

11 him to be -- to sit here. And I won't mention his name for that reason.

12 He was planned that he would testify with a pseudonym and he might, who

13 knows, be called as a witness. But we have evidence that -- serious

14 evidence that seem to prove that this intercept where this person is

15 actually talking is not authentic.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Whiting, you wanted to say something?

19 MR. WHITING: If I may, Your Honour. I -- just two points. The

20 first is in -- from our point of view, this represents a change in the

21 Defence's position with respect to intercepts because, of course, in the

22 pre-trial conference, it's at page 222 to 223, the Defence indicated that

23 they were accepting the authenticity of all the intercepts. Now, to be

24 fair, I did then say, Before we finally decide on this and before we drop

25 our intercept witnesses, let's be sure that we're talking about the same

Page 501

1 intercepts. I have then -- since then compiled a list of all the

2 intercepts in our case, provided them to the Defence. I did that this

3 morning. But all of the intercepts that are on our list were disclosed to

4 the Defence a long time ago, most of them last year, only one of them this

5 year, but all of them before the pre-trial conference when the Defence

6 said we accept the authenticity of all the intercepts. But I suppose -- I

7 suppose it's within the Defence's right to change their right.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Absolutely.

9 MR. WHITING: That's fine.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: They must put up their best defence.

11 MR. WHITING: That's fine. That of course changes our position

12 with respect to having to call those witnesses.

13 I would suggest that since we have now provided a list of all the

14 intercepts in the case that the Defence indicate to us -- respond to us

15 and to indicate which ones they're challenging and then we can address

16 those in whatever way is appropriate, whether we bring the intercept

17 witness or it may require bringing the participant to the conversation

18 here to testify, but I would suggest proceeding in that way.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: But as we're dealing with these specific

20 intercepts, it would seem to the Chamber to be better to hear from the

21 Defence which of these intercepts they accept and which they don't accept

22 and the specific reasons for not doing so.

23 MR. WHITING: Yes, I agree with that completely, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: And so this is what I want the Defence to do, to

25 concentrate on the intercepts that are being put in by the Prosecution now

Page 502

1 and tell us which of them you accept and which of them you do not accept

2 and the basis for your objection.

3 Mr. Tapuskovic.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: Yes. [Interpretation] Your Honour,

5 Mr. President, Mr. Robinson, I know very well, and that's what I learned

6 in this Tribunal, what spoken word means and that the words spoken in

7 front of you cannot be changed so easily and that no one should

8 acknowledge and accept that. However, you remember very well on the first

9 day - and that was the 10th of January - in response to Judge Robinson's

10 question, I did say something about it and I'm not going to repeat it now.

11 And at the end you concluded the hearing by leaving to both the

12 Prosecution and the Defence to discuss this and primarily to establish

13 whether both parties are referring and having the same thing in their

14 minds. This, Mr. Robinson, happened in the first seven or eight minutes

15 of that hearing. The first thing to do was for us to clearly understand

16 whether we referred to the same thing, and that remained unclarified.

17 Today Mr. Whiting invited us --

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Tapuskovic. I must say that for

19 myself, nothing that has happened here in my view affects the integrity of

20 the Defence, not in any way whatsoever. Let us follow the procedure that

21 I have outlined. So let us not waste any more time on this. Let's move

22 on.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No, just to respond to your

24 question and I'm not disputing the conversation, the intercepts you're

25 going to hear from my colleague, which specific intercepts are going to be

Page 503

1 addressed or dealt with today in the courtroom.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Thank you.

3 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you may, by your

4 leave --


6 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] -- I will tell you the numbers of

7 the intercepts. We were offered as contextual evidence, so not contesting

8 the nature of this of course, not contesting the use of this kind of

9 evidence here, but this is what I have noted on the list that was

10 addressed to me by the Prosecution. From the start, we accept the number

11 65 ter 24130. We accept that. It's not an intercept. I'm sorry, it's

12 24130 -- I'm just going to spell it out, 2430 --

13 MS. EDGERTON: That was marked as P37 yesterday.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: P37. Thank you, Ms. Edgerton. My colleague says

15 it's P38.

16 Which is it, Mr. Registrar?

17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]


19 MS. EDGERTON: I stand corrected. Apologies.

20 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Then the next exhibit is another

21 65 ter, 595.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: And that was --

23 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] This is an intercept, and we are

24 not contesting this one.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: What was the exhibit number for that?

Page 504



3 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Then the next exhibit, 2462, and

4 it's another 65 ter exhibit. Here --

5 MS. EDGERTON: With respect to 2462, I didn't offer that through

6 the witness yesterday as any document nor as a contextual document.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's not one of the documents --

8 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I have it on my list that I

9 received from the Prosecution. It's on my list.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, it would seem that it is not a document on

11 which they're relying at this stage at any rate, so you need not concern

12 yourself with that for the purposes of this exercise.

13 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Then that's all because the last

14 exhibit that I wanted to mention is 2493 --

15 MS. EDGERTON: P42 from yesterday.

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Microphone not activated]

17 MS. ISAILOVIC: [No interpretation]

18 MS. EDGERTON: In light of ...

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: So let us be clear now. The intercepts that you

21 accept are those that were marked for identification: P38, P39, and P42.

22 MS. EDGERTON: But P38 was not an intercept, Your Honours, it was

23 contextual document not an intercept. But again, those are the notes I

24 have. I've been corrected already once early this afternoon and rightly

25 so.

Page 505

1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Can I just ask --

2 MS. ISAILOVIC: [No interpretation]

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: P38 is the document that appears to me to be an

4 intercept between the accused and Ratko Mladic. Is that not correct?

5 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] No, that's P39.

6 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, for once our records here coincide

7 with those of my friend. We have that marked as P39.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 MS. EDGERTON: And the document we have marked as P38 bore the PT

10 number 2430 which was not an intercept.


12 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: So the documents that you do not accept are P38,

14 P39, and P42, or rather, the documents that you accept are P38, P39, and

15 P42?

16 MS. EDGERTON: With my learned friend's confirmation, could I then

17 ask that they be marked -- admitted as exhibits then, Your Honour. They

18 were yesterday marked for identification.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, they'll be admitted.

20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the following exhibits will be

22 admitted: 65 ter 02430 marked for identification as P38 will be admitted

23 as Exhibit P38. P595 marked for identification as P39 will be admitted as

24 Exhibit P39. And 65 ter number 02493 was marked for identification as P42

25 and will be admitted as Exhibit P42.

Page 506

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Now let us deal individually with those that you

2 do not accept and hear the -- the basis.

3 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as I have already

4 said, these are intercepts in which a person was involved. I don't wish

5 to pronounce this person's name in open session --

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: If you wish --

7 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] We have a number of indications

8 concerning this person and I don't wish to give his name in open session.

9 This might make things easier because once the name is out, everybody will

10 know exactly what intercept we are talking about. These four

11 conversations are the conversation in which this particular person was

12 involved.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let us go into private session and deal

15 with them individually, not globally.

16 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] The first intercept which also

17 comes with a transcript --

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are we in private session?

19 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours, we are in private session.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 507











11 Pages 507-512 redacted. Private session.















Page 513

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 [Open session]

15 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

16 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. So as you've already -- you've already talked to the Prosecution

18 and now I'm going to cross-examine you on some items that are in your

19 statement, a statement which is evidence here in this room. I'm going to

20 ask you a few questions, of course which all have to do with that

21 statement. Of course this statement dates back a few years.

22 So first question: In your resume I don't think much has changed

23 since you wrote this statement, but if I understood you right, when you

24 arrived in Sarajevo, you already had been a military man for 19 years. Is

25 that true?

Page 514

1 A. Yes, it's true.

2 Q. So if I'm right, you arrived in Sarajevo in May 1995 and stayed

3 there until June 1996. Is that it?

4 A. Until May 1996 -- from May 1995 to May 1996.

5 Q. Then after that you stayed within IFOR?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, very briefly, I'd like to go through what's already been

8 said, and I would like my assistant, Ms. Jovanovic, to help me and to have

9 P27 on the screen if possible, that's Mr. Fortin's declaration --

10 statement. So if we could have that on the screen, please, at paragraph

11 14 until 14E. I'm sure we don't need to stay on this long because we'll

12 agree this is the competence of the Sarajevo Sector, what the sector was

13 responsible for. I have your statement here in English. Maybe I'll read

14 it out in English, even though my English is not excellent. So these are

15 total exclusion zones; right? In French it's "zone d'exclusion totale."

16 If we could please have the paragraph 14A on the screen.

17 [In English] "Maintaining observation post around the safe areas

18 Sarajevo, Zepa, and Gorazde, see escorting humanitarian aid convoys to

19 Zepa and Gorazde; D, guarding WCPs." [Interpretation] These WCPs were

20 places where heavy weapons were collected. Is that it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So these were all the responsibilities that your sector was in

23 charge of?

24 A. Yes, more or less.

25 Q. So regarding the responsibilities of the sector, you also of

Page 515

1 course had your own job to do, and in that statement, in that same

2 document, you talk about that. We need to check paragraphs 7 to 12

3 regarding that topic. So regarding this, from 7 to 12.

4 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] If we could please have those on

5 the screen.

6 Q. You say: [In English] "I was the operational staff. This

7 included containing the sector commander everywhere. Meetings, briefings,

8 media, interviews. I took notes of all those encounters and offered my

9 perceptions, ideas, and advice on the situations they presented to the

10 commander."

11 [Interpretation] Is that accurate, Mr. Witness?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I still understand that you were with General Gobilliard, you were

14 always with him, he was your boss.

15 A. Almost everywhere and almost all the time but sometimes of course

16 I wasn't with him.

17 Q. So in this job, you were really working on the ground, you were

18 really mainly on Sarajevo and around Sarajevo. That is where you used to

19 work.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In paragraph 48 of the same document you state, and I quote. This

22 is page 10.

23 [In English] "I arrived in Sarajevo during the course of the

24 second or third day of the Bosnian offensive to try and break out of the

25 city."

Page 516

1 [Interpretation] So you arrived in Sarajevo during the course of

2 the second or third day. You're not too sure whether it's the second or

3 the third, but it was the second or the third day of the offensive of the

4 Bosnian army, right, that's it?

5 A. Yes, that's what I was told. I was told that the offensive had

6 just started.

7 Q. Did you -- when you arrived, did you immediately understand that

8 it was fierce combat?

9 A. Yes, absolutely. A lot of Serbian shells were falling on the

10 elevation around Sarajevo.

11 Q. Then I guess that when you were moving around with your boss,

12 General Gobilliard, you got accustomed to Sarajevo and the surroundings?

13 A. Mainly with the observation posts and the places where UN forces

14 were stationed at first, at first anyway, and then I got to know the rest

15 of Sarajevo.

16 Q. So if I've understood you right, they were on the territory held

17 by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and also on the places that were held by

18 the units of Republika Srpska, right?

19 A. Well, the observation posts were mainly on the confrontation line

20 between the two sides.

21 Q. Now, on -- in your statement that we have just mentioned, you are

22 mentioning a lot of names, geographical names, Debelo Brdo, for example,

23 Nedzarici, Ilidza, it's correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, please, I would like to talk about those names.

Page 517

1 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] And could we please have the map

2 on the ELMO, the map that we have in our -- in the bundle that was

3 provided by the Prosecution. Could we please have one of those maps on

4 the ELMO. I think it's the second one.

5 The map is now on the ELMO.

6 Q. This is a map that was developed by UNPROFOR, is that it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. This is a map that has been provided for by our learned colleagues

9 from Prosecution, and it's very handy to -- to use because there's this

10 yellow line. Could you tell us exactly what this yellow line stands for.

11 A. The yellow line represents the Bosnian front, and the red line the

12 Serbian front.

13 Q. So --

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, I'm sorry, it's not number 2. I'm

15 being told it's number 6.

16 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm sorry. I don't know

17 exactly. I don't have my copy.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, proceed, because we have it on the ELMO.

19 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. So we will look at a few place names that you mentioned in your

21 statement. Grbavica, for example, could you show us on the map where it

22 is.

23 A. Yes, it's the urban zone that's south of Sarajevo right here.

24 Q. What about Nedzarici?

25 A. [Indicates]

Page 518

1 Q. When we look at those two places that are surrounded on three

2 sides, there are Serbian lines and Bosnian lines. Is it sort of a pocket?

3 Do you think that we could talk about pockets here and say that Nedzarici

4 and Grbavica were pockets? I mean militarily? When you look at this as a

5 military man and you see this territory that is encircled on three sides.

6 A. Well, a pocket is -- an enclave is normally a place that you

7 cannot get out of. Here it's more like a breakthrough. That would be

8 more specific.

9 Q. Could you tell us exactly what is the military characteristic of

10 this breakthrough?

11 A. Contrary to the enclave or the pockets which you cannot get out

12 of, the breakthrough is where you move forward, where you can --

13 Q. Compared to the enclave?

14 A. Yes, because there's a way out.

15 Q. But militarily, is it easy to hold this kind of position? I mean

16 for the army as well as for the civilians that are inside because I'm sure

17 you could confirm that these are urban areas with many densely populated?

18 A. They're hard to hold. I'm sure that they're very hard to hold

19 militarily.

20 Q. On this map, we also see other places that you mention and others

21 that you don't mention, but I'm sure that you know of. Debelo Brdo, you

22 mentioned it in your statement. Could you please point to it first.

23 A. Right here.

24 Q. So could you confirm that this is -- that this is a mountain

25 that's 799 metres high. Could you confirm that this is actually a

Page 519

1 mountain?

2 A. Yes, it is a mountain. We had an observation point up there, but

3 I don't know exactly how high it is. I don't remember how high it is.

4 Q. Is it right behind the yellow line in a territory that would be

5 held by the Bosnian -- the BH army, the Bosnian army?

6 A. Well, the observation points -- posts that we had were between the

7 two lines. Now regarding this Debelo Brdo place that you are mentioning,

8 I don't know exactly where it stood.

9 Q. Maybe you remember which unit held this Debelo Brdo place.

10 A. You mean the Bosnian or Serb? Is that what you're asking?

11 Q. Well, you're not sure so we can skip that. Do you know of another

12 elevation that would be close to Debelo Brdo but more on the right, so to

13 the north-east here on this map that would be called Colina Kapa?

14 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, if I may take us just back -

15 apologies for the interruption - but just back to page 21, lines 15 and

16 16. I think that the witness asked the -- my learned friend to clarify

17 whether she meant Bosnian or Serb. He didn't say he wasn't sure. But

18 then my learned friend said at line 17, well, you're not sure so we can

19 skip out. Perhaps we could just ask her to clarify her first question for

20 the witness.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you hear that, Ms. Isailovic?

22 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I'll do that right away.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ask the witness the question again.

24 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel, please, I thought I understood what you said,

Page 520

1 but could you please answer my question again. Are you -- or do you know

2 exactly what unit held that elevation called Debelo Brdo, where there was

3 an observation post?

4 A. I can't say exactly. I don't know. I don't know exactly that

5 place because this Debelo Brdo on the map is, you know, on -- it spreads

6 on both sides of the line, so I can't say whether the site that you

7 specifically talked about was held by Serbs or Bosnians. I can't say.

8 All I can say is there was a French observation point and a Russian

9 observation point on that elevation.

10 Q. Well, thank you. I understood the same thing before, but now I

11 think everything is clear. There was another elevation Colina Kapa that I

12 was telling you about. It's to the north-east of Debelo Brdo. This is an

13 elevation that's 966 metres high. Do you remember it?

14 A. No, unfortunately.

15 Q. What about Zuc? It's here --

16 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] If we can move the map slightly on

17 the -- towards the other side we could see it.

18 Q. On the screen it's on -- in the top, it's called Zuc. Do you see

19 exactly where it is in the map?

20 A. [Indicates]

21 Q. That's exactly it. This is an elevation 830 metres high. Do you

22 remember that elevation?

23 A. I remember that elevation. I remember we had an observation point

24 there, but I don't really remember how high it was.

25 Q. So you see that it is in -- within the yellow line?

Page 521

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So this elevation was controlled by the Bosnian army?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you. So there's another elevation that is not mentioned on

5 this map, but when you get close to Sarajevo it's just -- springs out.

6 That's where the television antenna is located. It's called Mount Hum,

7 H-u-m. Do you remember that mountain?

8 A. Yes, I sort of remember.

9 Q. So as you get close to Sarajevo, you see it right away with this

10 television antenna on top.

11 A. Well, I flew in, unfortunately; I didn't drive in.

12 Q. Well, I can help you maybe. It's to the right of Mount Zuc and

13 it's 816 metres high. Maybe you remember Mojmilo better because it's on

14 the map and that would be at the very bottom of our map in the middle.

15 A. [Indicates]

16 Q. So do you remember this elevation?

17 A. Yes, we also had an observation here and we were watching

18 especially the airport from this observation point.

19 Q. So you confirm that this was close to the airport, and between --

20 and Dobrinja was between the airport and that mountain?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And that is close to Nedzarici. And Dobrinja was controlled by

23 Bosnian army, the Bosnian army, including Mojmilo?

24 A. Yes, absolutely.

25 Q. [No interpretation]

Page 522

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have lost the translation.

2 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] If the usher could just change the

3 map and turn the page in the booklet, please, I'd like to see another map.

4 Could you just scroll upwards a little bit, please. I would like

5 to visualise Mount Igman which is on the left-hand side --

6 MS. EDGERTON: Map number 7? I'm not quite certain, Your Honours.

7 Perhaps my friend could clarify for us.

8 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] From what the usher has just told

9 me, this is map number 3. We have it now on the ELMO.


11 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel, we can now resume. This is another map where

13 we can see the scale. It's on a slightly larger scale. On the left-hand

14 side we can see Mount Igman. Do you agree with me that this mountaintop

15 dominates the city?

16 A. On the western side of the town, yes.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let him identify Mount Igman.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's this area here and to the west

19 of the city.

20 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] May I continue?

21 Q. Can you confirm that Mount Igman is the highest mount, with the

22 exception of Bjelasnica, but Bjelasnica is a little bit further away, is

23 that right?

24 A. I can confirm. I don't know if it's the highest, but undoubtedly

25 to the west of the valley where the airport is located and where the river

Page 523

1 comes down here, this was a very high mount, mountain, dominating the

2 city.

3 Q. Could you perhaps help us to identify something else.

4 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we scroll the map upwards,

5 please, a little.

6 Q. And if you could identify at the foot of Mount Igman part of this

7 city of Sarajevo which is called Hrasnica. Does this place name ring a

8 bell?

9 A. Yes, I do remember the name. And I'm not quite sure where the

10 area was located.

11 Q. Can you show us on this map where Ilidza is and where it is

12 located.

13 A. I'm not quite sure.

14 Q. And Lukavica?

15 A. I'm not quite sure.

16 Q. Does Lukavica ring a bell because I -- I understand you've had to

17 deal with this.

18 A. Yes. It was a -- these were military barracks occupied by the

19 Serbs, and the liaison officer of the SRK who we were dealing with was

20 based here.

21 Q. Perhaps you remember this: When you moved about, did you ever go

22 to Lukavica?

23 A. Yes, I did go several times, but I navigated with a more detailed

24 map and this was 12 years ago.

25 Q. Do you remember whether you could see Mount Igman from Lukavica?

Page 524

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. Thank you. Just below the airport, can you confirm that there was

3 a tunnel at the time you arrived in Sarajevo? Can you confirm this for

4 me?

5 A. I had heard -- we did hear about the tunnel for a while on the

6 eastern side of the city, but I actually never used this outlet, this

7 tunnel. I never went through it.

8 Q. But you did hear about this tunnel?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. At the time and today, do you remember what purpose this tunnel

11 served? What was it used for?

12 A. Not really.

13 Q. Now we shall move on to another topic because we haven't -- I

14 haven't elicited much information from you on these maps. I just wanted

15 to describe the area where you were from May 1995 until May 1996; in other

16 words, where you were staying for one year. In your statement, you

17 mention some --

18 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Mrs. Jovanovic, could we have a

19 look at the statement. This is Exhibit number P27, paragraph 40, on page

20 8 of your statement.

21 Q. Could you tell us tell us who this man was. This was a figure

22 head. His name was misspelled in your statement. This is always a

23 problem with Slavic names. This gentleman is mentioned in paragraph 40.

24 His name is Aznadzic. It's Ajnadzic in fact, A-j-n-a-d-z-i-c.

25 Do you remember this man?

Page 525

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Who was he?

3 A. As it is mentioned here, he was the commander of the 1st Bosnian

4 Corps.

5 Q. I didn't understand you. Of --

6 A. Of the 1st Corps of the Bosnian Army.

7 Q. Did you get any detailed information about this corps of the

8 Bosnian Army?

9 A. This corps was occupying Sarajevo.

10 Q. Can you confirm that this corps comprised three divisions?

11 A. I don't remember the details.

12 Q. Have you heard about the 12th Division of the 1st Corps?

13 A. No, I don't remember.

14 Q. And do you perhaps remember something about this 1st Corps, in

15 other words, that it had 65.000 men?

16 A. This comes to me as a surprise. I don't remember such figures.

17 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we look at a map again,

18 please. We still have the booklet on the ELMO. I would like the first

19 map now to be shown to the witness.

20 Could we magnify -- no, the other way around. Reduce it so that

21 we could see -- can we see the entire map, please. Yes, that's fine.

22 Q. So a while ago we mentioned the yellow line, and you told me that

23 the yellow line indicated the border between the -- or indicated where the

24 Bosnian Army's positions were.

25 A. Yes, that's what I said.

Page 526

1 Q. You don't remember, but we shall look at a number of other maps.

2 I don't think this is a point that's challenged between the Prosecution

3 and the Defence. This is the 12th Division of the 1st Corps which was

4 inside this yellow line. Is that right? They had 75.000 men.

5 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours.


7 MS. EDGERTON: Lieutenant-Colonel Fortin has already responded at

8 page 27, line 22, that he has never -- he doesn't recall if he heard about

9 the 12th Division of the 1st Corps, so I hardly think he is in a position

10 to answer a question formulated in this way.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ask another question, Ms. Isailovic.

12 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] So I shall put my question in

13 another way.

14 Q. Do you remember whether the -- a unit of the 1st Corps of the

15 Bosnian Army was operating militarily within these yellow lines?

16 A. All I can say is that some elements of the 1st Corps were inside

17 the yellow lines, but the man we met in the presence of Mr. Gobilliard was

18 a commander of the 1st Corps, General Ajnadzic.

19 Q. So my submission is now somewhat different. Inside the yellow

20 lines, there was the 1st Corps, the entire 1st Corps of the Bosnian Army.

21 Can we truly talk about a safe area when we talk about this area located

22 inside the yellow lines? Let me remind you now of your statement. This

23 is in paragraph 14(b), which we have mentioned already because one of

24 your -- among your responsibility you needed to: [In English] "Maintain

25 Sarajevo, Zepa, and Gorazde".

Page 527

1 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton, yes.

3 MS. EDGERTON: My submission, Your Honours, would be that this

4 calls for speculation on the part of the witness, page 29, lines 5. Can

5 we truly talk about the safe area when we talk about this area located

6 inside the yellow lines? And indeed it's not a question he's in a

7 position to answer.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'd -- why not? He's a military man. I think

9 he's in a position to answer it. I don't accept your submission.

10 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, if I may, my submission would be the

11 question as formulated is calling -- inviting speculation on the part of

12 this witness. This Chamber is well aware, as are the parties here, that

13 Sarajevo was, indeed, in 1993 declared a safe area by the United Nations.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's not her question.

15 You are to answer the question, Lieutenant, based on your

16 experience.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you put your question again,

18 please.

19 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. I will not ask my whole question again, but what I said was: Can

21 we say that Sarajevo was one of the safe areas so to speak insofar as

22 within these yellow lines or inside these yellow lines there was an entire

23 corps? You did identify this corps. You said that this corps was the 1st

24 Corps of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

25 A. Why not? The United Nations declared these areas safe areas, and

Page 528

1 the blue helmets were mandated to maintain the confrontation lines and

2 observe the confrontation lines. There were two warring parties, and the

3 United Nations placed forces in these areas to make sure that the

4 agreements are abided by, whether it would be agreement signed by two or

5 three parties sometimes.

6 Q. If I tell you that according to the 4th Geneva Convention, I

7 assume that the Canadian army is also concerned about the implementation

8 of the -- these conventions provide for the area to be a safe area?

9 A. I don't understand your question.

10 Q. We do have the Geneva Conventions that provide for the fact that a

11 particular region or territory could be called a safe area or be made or

12 turned into a safe area. Do you agree with me that such convention on

13 that -- that the Geneva Convention does exist and that all the armies in

14 the world are preoccupied and concerned about the Geneva Conventions?

15 A. Yes, I don't know all the articles of the -- of the said

16 conventions admittedly.

17 Q. That's not a problem because the Bench is familiar with the

18 articles of the conventions.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, if I understood you correctly, you

21 were making a distinction between the formal declaration by the UN of a

22 particular area as a safe area and whether, in fact, it was safe.

23 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] You are absolutely right, Your

24 Honour.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: And that is what I'd like the Lieutenant to

Page 529

1 answer because he must be in a position to answer that. Never mind the

2 formal declaration as a safe area.

3 On the basis of the experience that you had, was it a safe area?

4 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I believe it was, and because it was

5 declared so and because we were tasked to act in this light. The

6 alternative was for all this area to become under Serb control, and this

7 is what the UN wanted to prevent.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: You haven't answered the question, but proceed.

9 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I have another document before me

10 in which we talk about a safe area. This document was admitted yesterday,

11 it's document P21. Could you kindly display it. It's 65 ter 2479.

12 That's the number.

13 It's not a big problem. There was this document that was tendered

14 yesterday. I thought I wrote down the right number. This is a

15 document -- this is a memorandum written by Lieutenant-Colonel Fortin,

16 signed by himself, dated June 28, 1995, meeting between General Smith and

17 Colonel Meille on June 28, 1995. It is a 65 ter document. Maybe we can

18 get some help. It's number 2479. So here the --

19 MS. EDGERTON: P -- if I may --


21 MS. EDGERTON: -- P45 by my notes from yesterday.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much, Ms. Edgerton.

23 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] If we could have the second

24 paragraph, please, where General Smith --

25 Q. So these are questions we are going to deal with today are

Page 530

1 mentioned here. There's mention of the offensive and the attack against

2 the television building by the Army of Republika Srpska, and he's

3 wondering: [In English] Retaliation to the BiH attack or a simple

4 violation of the safe area."

5 [Interpretation] So here you were unable to answer to that

6 question which is a question of fact. We wanted to know whether it was de

7 facto a safe area, but you weren't able to answer so we'll continue

8 anyway.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, we will take the break now and may

10 I ask how much longer you intend to be in your cross-examination?

11 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I need to compute how long it's

12 already been. I think I've spent already 20 minutes, so I'll need about

13 three times that, at least an hour and 15 minutes if possible. I believe

14 that should be enough.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: I believe you've spent more than 20 minutes.

16 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Time flies. It's unfortunate

17 technology is dragging us down a little.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I will discuss this matter with my colleagues,

19 but I believe I'm going to have to set time-limits at the beginning of

20 cross-examination.

21 MS. ISAILOVIC: [No interpretation]

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: In the circumstances, the Chamber will not give

23 you another hour and 15 minutes.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: You have spent 45 minutes I've been informed.

Page 531


2 JUDGE ROBINSON: And you will have another 40 minutes.

3 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 4.08 p.m.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please continue, Ms. Isailovic.

6 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Let's move on to

7 something else. Could we please display document 65 ter 471 -- 2471.

8 Q. Do you see the document on your screen, Lieutenant-Colonel?

9 A. I don't know if it's the right one that I have on my screen.

10 Q. This is a situation report, a weekly situation report, signed by

11 David Harland.

12 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] If we could please have page 2,

13 it's signed by David Harland. If we go to the paragraph saying: [In

14 English] Last Friday and Saturday, Bosnian troops attacked Serb positions

15 from the south-west and north."

16 [Interpretation] So after this there's another paragraph

17 starting: [In English] "By the end of the week it appeared that the

18 Bosnians had made significant gains in only two areas: To the north of

19 the city in the Cemerska heights and to the south of the city on the

20 eastern slopes of Mount Igman."

21 [Interpretation] So at the end -- almost at the end of this: [In

22 English] "On Friday (23 June), the Serbs asked Civil Affairs to provide

23 500 body-bags, in expectation of upcoming casualties."

24 [Interpretation] So does this document prove that there was a very

25 intense Bosnian offensive going on?

Page 532

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you -- were you an eye-witness to this -- to the intensity of

3 the combat?

4 A. Yes, I was fully aware. I knew that Bosnians were trying to break

5 the encirclement of Sarajevo.

6 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please now have document

7 65 ter 2503.

8 Q. This is another weekly situation report written by Mr. David

9 Harland, and at page 2 you see right at the top of the page: [In

10 English] "Two weeks after it began, the Bosnian offensive outside appears

11 to have achieved very little."

12 [Interpretation] Could you please confirm that this is almost at

13 the end of June and that the offensive is still going on. Could you

14 confirm that because I haven't heard you.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, please, could you look at this document on the screen, and I

17 will read out: [In English] "On Wednesday" -- [Interpretation] This is

18 the second paragraph. Do you have it? [In English] "Attack out of the

19 city. The main attack came from the western part of the town and was

20 focused on the Serb-held area of Nedzarici. The nearby areas of Stup and

21 Rajlovac were also attacked."

22 [Interpretation] Have you read this? Were you able to see it?

23 A. No, I can't see the paragraph. I can't seem to find it. I've

24 found it now.

25 Q. So what is written in this paragraph, is it exact? Is it correct?

Page 533

1 In your statement, if we could please have the paragraph 75 and 76 of the

2 statement on the screen.

3 A. Yes, it's correct.

4 Q. You're saying absolutely the same thing in your statement. [In

5 English] "On June 28th the Bosnian army" -- [Interpretation] This is

6 exactly the correct you made to your statement yesterday. [In

7 English] "Started shelling Stup and Nedzarici." [Interpretation] You do

8 remember this part of your statement, right? This is the passage that you

9 corrected yesterday.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. If we could please now look at the map that is on the ELMO and try

12 and locate Nedzarici.

13 A. [Indicates]

14 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have the map on the

15 screen, please, and if we could zoom in a little bit.

16 Q. Do you see Nedzarici and could you please point to Nedzarici.

17 A. [Indicates]

18 Q. Could you now point to the PTT building where you were stationed.

19 A. [Indicates]

20 Q. I think the two areas are close.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Could you please also show us the TV building.

23 A. It's east of the PTT building.

24 Q. If we could now move to the other document that we've already

25 seen, the 65 ter document 2503, and if we could move to page 3 of that

Page 534

1 document. So after the title -- can you read this? Can you read it on

2 your screen?

3 A. It needs to be scrolled down a little bit. It needs to be

4 scrolled down.

5 Q. Yes, scroll down. Right after the title that says: [In

6 English] "Since the Bosnian offensive began two weeks ago, the number of

7 Bosnian heavy weapons operating from near UNPROFOR facilities has

8 significantly increased."

9 [Interpretation] Could you please confirm this because in your

10 statement also in paragraph 76 you mentioned this?

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.

12 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honours. We're already somewhat familiar

13 with this document, and I'd like to raise a point that was raised with

14 respect to reference to this specific section of the document yesterday.

15 Your Honours, this extrapolation from the document has failed to note that

16 the paragraph dealing with the subject: "Location of Bosnian weapons a

17 problem," in fact continues and concludes on the very next page and this,

18 I would submit, Your Honour, is something that should be presented to the

19 witness as a whole to put the comment in the proper context.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: If that is so, I entirely agree.

21 Do you have that in your document, the continuation of the text?

22 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, we have the whole thing.

23 MS. EDGERTON: And --

24 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, but, Your Honour, I don't

25 agree. But I want something else because I'm continuing with the

Page 535

1 statement, this witness's statement. This is what I'm working with and it

2 confirms exactly the same thing. So maybe we could wait for that part of

3 the statement which confirms and then you will see what my submission is.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. I'd like to have the whole statement

5 put to the witness.

6 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Okay.

7 Q. So now could I please draw your attention to paragraph 76 of your

8 statement. [In English] "I was in the PTT building at the time this

9 rocket fell on the TV building. It made a huge explosion. There were

10 Bosnian mortars in the vicinity. They were in the field about 500 metres

11 behind the TV building. The Bosnians put their mortars wherever they

12 wanted, Kosevo hospital, the PTT building."

13 [Interpretation] So do you think that we can reconcile what we saw

14 in Mr. Harland's report, weekly report, where he states that the Bosnian

15 Army is placing heavy weapons close to UNPROFOR positions. Is that

16 exactly what you are saying in your declaration?

17 A. Yes, that's what I was saying.

18 Q. Maybe on the map, could you show us now these two locations. You

19 were stationed in the PTT building --

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.

21 MS. EDGERTON: With respect, Your Honour, I don't think any

22 reconciliation can be fairly made until the witness has the opportunity to

23 see the whole paragraph in the document.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: What's the paragraph to which you say continues?

25 MS. EDGERTON: The specific paragraph that my learned friend is

Page 536

1 referring to, Your Honour, is the section -- deals -- it appears in the

2 first instance at the bottom of page 3: "Location of Bosnian weapons a

3 problem." That's the topic heading. And --

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: What's the --

5 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Does it have a paragraph number?

7 MS. EDGERTON: I'm sorry, Your Honour, Mr. Harland's documents

8 don't appear to have had paragraph numbers.

9 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] It's on the third page after the

10 subtitle --

11 MS. EDGERTON: P19, Your Honour, is the document.


13 MS. EDGERTON: It's on the third page, last subject

14 heading: "Location of Bosnian weapons a problem." And Your Honours heard

15 yesterday from Mr. Harland how the reports were structured. The -- if I

16 could ask your indulgence, the next subject heading only appears later on

17 on the following page. There's a concluding paragraph to that first

18 subject heading, Your Honours, that I would submit is -- would be fairly

19 put to the witness so he can contextualise his answer.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: So what is the -- it's the paragraph beginning --

21 MS. EDGERTON: Beginning on the next page, Your Honours.

22 Continues the subject heading and reads: "Either way, there has been an

23 increase in the number of Serb shells hitting UNPROFOR targets. The

24 sector does not consider this to be wayward counter-battery fire from the

25 Serbs but direct targeting."

Page 537

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: And I will put it to the witness. This of course

2 is something which could be done in re-examination, but I'll put it to the

3 witness now.

4 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: And the question that is to be asked is whether

6 in the light of that there can be a reconciliation.

7 Colonel, the passage referred to by the Prosecutor reads: "Either

8 way, there has been an increase in the number of Serb shells hitting

9 UNPROFOR targets. The sector does not consider this to be wayward

10 counter-battery from the Serbs, but direct targeting."

11 In the light of that, what is the answer that you would give to

12 the question that was asked by Ms. Isailovic earlier?

13 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, as I said, the Bosnians did set up some

14 mortar positions near facilities such as PTT and TV building, but this was

15 in course of their spring offensive to try and break out of Sarajevo and

16 they were firing from many positions, usually mortars, for example, fire a

17 few rounds from one position and then move to another one. So they did

18 set up there, but I personally believe that the Serb retaliation which was

19 usually quite accurate when it hit UN facilities it was direct targeting.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

21 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Could you please tell us,

22 Lieutenant-Colonel, one thing. In paragraph 76 of your statement, who --

23 who actually fired the rocket that fell on the TV building? Do you know

24 who fired that rocket?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it came from Serb territory.

Page 538

1 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] And the question, you know, I want

2 to ask is the following. Given the experience that you've had on the

3 ground, was that because there were Bosnian weapons in the surroundings

4 and that the Serbs were targeting those weapons, or do you think it was a

5 deliberate attack on the TV building, which led to 32 wounded.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to me, it was a deliberate

7 shot. They were deliberately targeting that building.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, please continue.

9 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before continuing,

10 can I ask a question on the time that is -- I have left. Could you

11 please -- would that be ten minutes that all these comments took? I'm

12 doing my best, you know, to really go through all the questions that I

13 want to ask.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Another 25 minutes.

16 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

17 Q. I'll continue. I didn't want to know how you -- I'm not asking

18 you how you evaluate all this now, but are these those heavy -- the same

19 heavy weapons that you were mentioning in the paragraph 76 and that's your

20 statement? Do you think it is the same heavy weapons that Mr. Harland is

21 mentioning in his situation report?

22 A. Most probably, yes.

23 Q. Thank you. So on the map we saw that Nedzarici, maybe Rajlovac.

24 Do you know Rajlovac? Do you know this place name? Does that ring a

25 bell, Rajlovac?

Page 539

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is it close also to the PTT building and is it also close to the

3 TV building?

4 A. It's a few kilometres away.

5 Q. But at the time maybe you knew that these are very densely

6 populated areas. These are urban areas, Nedzarici and Rajlovac are urban

7 areas that are very densely populated.

8 A. For Rajlovac, I can't really tell you whether it was densely

9 populated, but Nedzarici, I don't think it was that densely populated when

10 the combat occurred.

11 Q. So you think that in Nedzarici there weren't that many civilians

12 at the time?

13 A. Not in the period of reference, you know, for around June 1995.

14 Q. You think the people had left, is that it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Judge Mindua asked you a question which goes in the same direction

17 as my question. You said that you thought this was a deliberate shelling,

18 targeting the TV building, but as a military man, can you confirm to us

19 that there were -- there were cross-fires and that the two warring parties

20 were actually shooting at each other. I'm not talking about

21 proportionality here, I'm just -- but was this exchange an exchange of

22 fire?

23 A. Well, there were exchanges of fire everywhere. There was fighting

24 going on everywhere in Sarajevo.

25 Q. Yes, but at the time -- we're talking about at 8.30 in the morning

Page 540

1 when there was an attack on Nedzarici and Rajlovac, then at 9.00 there was

2 the rocket that fell on the TV building. So militarily, could you talk

3 about the firing that would be going on during combat, and we're not

4 talking about intensity of fire or proportionality?

5 A. You can talk about exchange of fire but you cannot make a

6 connection with a specific targeting of different areas.

7 Q. Thank you. You talked at length about another problem --

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a second, Ms. Isailovic.

9 Can you tell us why you say the TV building was specifically

10 targeted?

11 THE WITNESS: From -- Your Honour, from our estimate -- from what

12 I recall, we had discussions about that at the headquarters Sector

13 Sarajevo at the time. And we came to the conclusion that it was direct

14 targeting, based on the fact that usually the Serb indirect fire was quite

15 accurate.


17 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I continue?


19 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. I have another question that springs to mind. You were talking

21 about heavy weapons that were scattered everywhere throughout this limited

22 area around the PTT building, and you're talking -- you say that there are

23 mortars 500 metres behind the TV building. Could you please show us on

24 the map exactly where those mortars were located. You have on the map the

25 TV building and the PTT building.

Page 541

1 A. The TV building's right here and the field about 500 metres behind

2 it, that's where there were mortars for a while.

3 Q. But there's a little river here. On which side of the river were

4 the mortars?

5 A. On the north side.

6 Q. So you go behind the TV building, you cross the river. I know

7 this, that Bojako Potok is there and this is a densely populated

8 neighbourhood with houses.

9 A. Yeah, right at the north there's people and then it's sort of no

10 population and that's where the mortars were.

11 Q. When you put heavy mortars here, in those places, does that change

12 the civilian nature of an object when mortars are located close to it?

13 A. I don't understand your question.

14 Q. There are military facilities and civilian facilities. A

15 hospital, for example, is a civilian object in military terms, the PTT

16 building also. But when close to it or inside possibly there are weapons

17 in it. In such a facility, does this change the nature of the facility?

18 Is the facility going to change in nature?

19 A. I don't think it can change the nature of object or places, but if

20 you want to -- that's -- when you put your weapons there then, you know,

21 you run into the problem of collateral damage of course.

22 Q. Okay. Let's go to something else. We talked a lot about the

23 hostage crisis between the Army of Republika Srpska and the UNPROFOR. You

24 were closely involved in all -- in everything that happened there. Could

25 you confirm to us that the hostage taking occurred after NATO bombed the

Page 542

1 territory that was held by Republika Srpska on May 25 and May 26, 1995.

2 A. If I remember right, yes, it was right after.

3 Q. In a 65 ter document number 103, Mr. Harland on page 3 is

4 mentioning the following: [In English] "-- NATO air-strikes last week" --

5 MS. EDGERTON: I'm sorry, could we wait until we have the document

6 on the screen, please, thank you.

7 MS. ISAILOVIC: Mm-hmm.

8 [Interpretation] On page 2.

9 Q. Now, this is what Mr. Harland says. Do we have the document on

10 the screen? No. In your witness -- in your statement, you -- maybe you

11 will remember. General Mladic said to General Janvier that a hostage

12 taking was due to the NATO bombings and that the hostages would be

13 released once the bombing stops. Do you remember this part of your

14 statement?

15 A. I will have to look at it again.

16 Q. We have Mr. Harland's report here which mentions a hostage crisis

17 which continues. You can see this, it's on the second sentence. So he

18 establishes a connection between this hostage taking and qualifies it and

19 says that this is a form of retaliation because of NATO bombing.

20 Now, let's move on to paragraph 65. This is on page 12.

21 Do you have this document in front of you? In paragraph 65: [In

22 English] "General Smith told us that General Janvier had talked to General

23 Mladic. Mladic purportedly said that the hostages were prisoners of war,

24 and that he would not free any of them until he had a written guarantee

25 from NATO that there would be no more air-strikes."

Page 543

1 [Interpretation] Can you confirm to me that you -- this is what

2 Mr. -- what General Smith said.

3 A. I'm sorry, could you repeat your question.

4 Q. Did you hear this? Did you hear General Smith saying this, that

5 General Janvier talked to General Mladic and that there was a connection

6 between the hostage taking and the NATO bombing?

7 A. Yes, I remember this conversation being mentioned.

8 Q. Was this punitive measure undertaken by the Army of Republika

9 Srpska?

10 A. Perhaps you should qualify this when you use the word "punitive."

11 I think it was an attempt to implement the agreement which had been

12 signed.

13 Q. We do have your statement. I'd like to turn to paragraph 33 now.

14 For instance, you mentioned the ultimatums that had been drafted

15 and that you drafted. This was part of your job. [In English] "For

16 instance, around May 20, when the Bosnian Serbs started using weapons

17 around the WCPs, we wrote letters. One that I wrote was an ultimatum that

18 we gave them to return weapons to the WCPs, or that we would bomb. They

19 did not and we bombed."

20 [Interpretation] Can you confirm this? Can you confirm this?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So it's important to record your answer in the transcript.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In paragraph 49 of your statement it says: [In English] "In

25 response to the Bosnian attack, the Bosnian Serbs started to fire their

Page 544

1 weapons which had been gathered in the WCPs."

2 [Interpretation] Can you confirm this now?

3 A. Yes, that's what I wrote.

4 Q. According to you, had NATO ever bombed the ABiH army units?

5 A. I believe not.

6 Q. And can we say that the violations committed by the Army of

7 Republika Srpska, these violations were a form of retaliation against the

8 attacks of the Bosnian Army that had used heavy weapons, and they used the

9 heavy weapons which were being guarded by UNPROFOR. Was this the

10 violation in question?

11 A. Can you say that again, please.

12 Q. Did the Army of Republika Srpska commit this violation? They had

13 taken the heavy weapons which were under the protection of UNPROFOR.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And in order to do so, they were punished and NATO decided to

16 bomb?

17 A. That's right.

18 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now turn to document 65

19 ter 2374 -- 2364.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.

21 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. This is also a weekly sit report dated the 19th of May and drafted

23 by David Harland. This report was drafted before the bombing started

24 because the NATO bombing started on the 25th and 26th of May. Is that

25 right? And in this report it says --

Page 545

1 A. I don't see the text yet.

2 Q. This is on page 2. This is the paragraph which is just

3 below: "Fighting around the city."

4 [In English] "Both sides have begun using their heavy weapons with

5 vigor."

6 [Interpretation] And after it reads in the same paragraph at the

7 end: [In English] "both sides used heavy weapons liberally, with the

8 Serbs even firing from weapons nominally under the control of UNPROFOR in

9 designated weapons collection points."

10 [Interpretation] In the fifth paragraph [In English] "-- in the

11 confrontation line." [Interpretation] Can you confirm this?

12 A. Yes. I would like to get back to the beginning of this page.

13 Q. The beginning of the page. This report was drafted before the

14 bombing. This occurred before the events we are talking about, and

15 Mr. Harland is talking about the fact that both parties were using heavy

16 weapons. And I would like you to confirm that only one side was punished

17 by NATO.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you. I would now like to address - we don't have much

20 time - one question that relates to the total exclusion zone and where no

21 heavy weapons could be used. I would like to talk about Mount Igman, and

22 in paragraph 14, again of your statement, it says about the responsibility

23 and the way in which the Sarajevo Sector was organised. This is in

24 paragraph 14(a), and you were, amongst other things, occupying the TEZ.

25 Could you explain to us a little bit how this worked, how these exclusion

Page 546

1 zones worked, because I think you are an expert on this.

2 A. I think you would have to be more specific. I would like your

3 question to be more precise.

4 Q. What was the purpose of these zones? They were total exclusion

5 zones in this sector. What does this mean? What were these total

6 exclusion zones?

7 A. Primarily, they were designed to protect the civilian population,

8 to avoid fighting occurring in these zones, or preventing from munition to

9 explode in these areas.

10 Q. So the idea was to prevent fighting in these zones?

11 A. Yes, and to make sure that heavy weaponry wasn't used.

12 Q. Yes, primarily heavy weaponry. So Mount Igman and the road to

13 Mount Igman was also located in this zone. Is that right?

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. And can you confirm this -- this goes beyond the time you were in

16 Sarajevo, but from August 1993 these total exclusion zones had already

17 been designated?

18 A. Of course, I don't know that period as well.

19 Q. At any rate, this was before your arrival. Am I right in saying

20 that the warring factions were not entitled to be there?

21 A. This notion of total exclusion zones collapsed just before I

22 arrived. I don't remember -- remember all of this so well because the

23 whole thing collapsed soon after I arrived.

24 Q. A while ago we talked about safe areas and that collapsed also.

25 So here we are dealing with another idea, and UNPROFOR was responsible for

Page 547

1 this and this was no longer working, but the idea behind this was that the

2 warring factions were not allowed to go into these zones. Is that right?

3 A. As I was saying earlier on, it was to prevent fighting occurring

4 in these zones; that was the primary objective, but I don't remember

5 anything else.

6 Q. However, but in your statement you recount what happened at the

7 time. It seems that the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was present in these

8 areas in mount -- close to Mount Igman and the road that led up to Mount

9 Igman.

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. Can you confirm that this zone was used by this army for military

12 purposes; in other words, they were transporting arms and troops. Was

13 that the case?

14 A. I can't confirm that because it's not something I saw personally.

15 From what I could see and what was circulating was aid convoys that -- the

16 UNHCR convoys that were trying to reach the town, the UNPROFOR convoys,

17 but there were also civilian and Bosnian convoys that were trying to

18 provide food to the town. I didn't see any military convoys or any

19 Bosnian arms being transported.

20 Q. In your statement, in paragraph 72 - I don't know if you have this

21 front of you - [In English] "-- traffic jams" -- [Interpretation] And you

22 say: [In English] "-- up and down at night at each end."

23 [Interpretation] Is that true?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In other words, they prevented UNPROFOR from using this area which

Page 548

1 had been allocated to it?

2 A. UNPROFOR could have used one route and the airport also, but we

3 were prevented from doing so by the Serbs. Yeah, in fact, there was

4 Bosnian traffic on the Mount Igman road.

5 Q. Now, if we could go to the next page, please. In paragraph 78

6 you mention a man called Hajrulahovic. Could you tell us who this person

7 is.

8 A. I remember the name, but I can't remember what his position was.

9 Q. What unit did he belong to?

10 A. He was a Bosnian military.

11 Q. On -- [In English] "-- I told him that movement of sector forces

12 over Igman was acceptable, but movement of the -- [Interpretation] these

13 rapid intervention forces that were not. Am I right in saying that

14 Mr. Hajrulahovic is taking on more powers than he should have had in the

15 area occupied by UNPROFOR?

16 A. I think that's what he wanted --

17 MS. EDGERTON: [Previous translation continues] ...

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's hear your objection.

19 MS. EDGERTON: He's already said at page 51, lines 21 to 24 he

20 can't remember the position of Mr. Hajrulahovic, so I hardly think the

21 witness is in a position, not knowing Mr. Hajrulahovic's position, to

22 comment on what powers he might have been able to have or to operate.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Ask another question, Ms. Isailovic.

24 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Just to shed light on this. The

25 rank of Mr. Hajrulahovic is not something which is of interest to me. The

Page 549

1 witness answered by saying that he was Bosnian. I don't know. I could

2 perhaps repeat my question. I'm just asking the witness to give me his

3 view. Whatever his rank might have been in the army, I just wanted to say

4 that this man was not part of UNPROFOR, but that he was occupying this

5 area and he was amongst other areas occupying Mount Igman. And

6 Mr. Hajrulahovic was actually in that area and giving instructions,

7 whereas he shouldn't have been in that area in the first place.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can you answer that question?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. All I can say,

10 this is something I wrote in my statement. This Bosnian representative

11 wanted to restrict the movements of the Rapid Reaction Force around Mount

12 Igman but it was not possible. It was UNPROFOR and the Rapid Reaction

13 Force that had the final or the last word.

14 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Thank you. So in that statement in paragraph 91, here you are --

16 81. You're saying that there was a discussion between General Nicolai, he

17 was Chief of Staff, it was Mr. Smith, General Smith's Chief of Staff and

18 he had a conversation with Mr. Muratovic. So is he -- which side was

19 Mr. Muratovic?

20 MS. EDGERTON: I'm sorry to interrupt again, but I see reference

21 to the statement in paragraph 91 appearing in the transcript, and I note

22 that paragraph 91 was redacted from this witness's statement. Are we

23 referring to the proper paragraph?

24 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] It's 81, I'm sorry --

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter's correction.

Page 550

1 MS. EDGERTON: [Previous translation continues] ...

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ...

3 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] So the witness got the right

4 page --

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Reference is to 81.

6 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. So Mr. Muratovic, whose side is he on? He's on the Bosnian side,

8 right?

9 A. No, he's a Bosnian -- he's a civilian, a Muslim civilian.

10 Q. And so Mr. Nicolai?

11 A. Mr. Nicolai is a high-ranking official of UNPROFOR and he talked

12 to this Mr. Muratovic, a civilian, a Bosnian civilian, and talking to him

13 about how this zone which was supposed to be occupied by UNPROFOR is being

14 used.

15 Q. Is that what this is all about?

16 A. Can you please give me some time so I can read paragraph 81.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: And you're very near to the end of your

18 cross-examination now, Ms. Isailovic.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, all I can say is the Bosnians

20 expressed that desire. A bit further down I hint that things didn't turn

21 out exactly the way they wanted.

22 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. But they did continue using Mount Igman and the Igman road. Can

24 you confirm that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 551

1 Q. Thank you very much, Lieutenant-Colonel Fortin.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Ms. Isailovic.

3 Ms. Edgerton.

4 Re-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

5 MS. EDGERTON: If I may, and rather briefly, just two quick

6 questions. The first relating, Lieutenant-Colonel Fortin, to your

7 testimony which for the record in this case appears at page 43,

8 approximately -- beginning at about lines 7 and 8, and there you speak

9 alternatively about mortars and heavy weapons and heavy mortars around the

10 PTT building. And the question I'd like to ask you is: Could you clarify

11 what weapons to your knowledge had the Bosnians placed around the PTT

12 building at the time of the attack.

13 A. From what I recall, they were 82-millimetre mortars.

14 Q. Now, have you had some training in artillery, training and

15 experience in artillery over the course of your military career,

16 Lieutenant-Colonel Fortin?

17 A. As an army officer, I got advanced training on the use of mortars.

18 Q. Now, in common military speak, is an 82-millimetre mortar a heavy

19 weapon?

20 A. It's a light mortar, in all categories a mortar, but I believe for

21 the purpose of an exclusion zone all indirect fire weapons were included

22 as heavy weapons in the context of Sarajevo.

23 Q. Now, in the course of your answers about the PTT building, you

24 were offering assistance to the direct targeting of the PTT building.

25 Now, I'd like your further assistance and your opinion, having been there

Page 552

1 at the time. In your opinion, were the Bosnian Serbs targeting those

2 mortars or were they targeting the PTT building?

3 A. Well, like I said, the Serbs were usually very accurate with their

4 mortars. That day we received three rounds of mortars, two directly on

5 the building and the other one in the parking lot. So the greatest

6 distance between the two furthest apart of those three rounds was probably

7 about 30 metres, which is quite accurate, and that's why I say they were

8 directly targeting the building.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: But where were the mortars placed in relation to

10 the building? Were they directly behind it or to the side?

11 THE WITNESS: The Bosnian mortars were to the north of the

12 building, a few hundred metres to the north of the building.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: From where the fire was coming, would that be in

14 front or behind it?

15 THE WITNESS: I believe the fire was coming from Lukavica, but I'm

16 not certain. So in this case they would have been behind the building, if

17 the fire was coming from Lukavica, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Were they immediately behind it, directly behind

19 it, or -- or to the --

20 THE WITNESS: A few hundred metres, sir.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: A few hundred metres behind.

22 MS. EDGERTON: One further question related to the incidents

23 around that same time, the shelling of the TV building and the shelling of

24 the PTT building, and for that purpose, I wonder if I could ask for a

25 document to be shown on the screen. It's already in evidence and bears

Page 553

1 the number P18, please. Now, I see in front of me a Serbo-Croatian

2 version and I suspect a successive page will have the English version of

3 this document. Uh-huh. Thank you very much.

4 Q. Now, Lieutenant-Colonel, I don't know if you've seen this document

5 before, but I wonder if you could take a couple of moments and review this

6 document signed by Lieutenant-Colonel Meille. And you can tell us when

7 you're ready.

8 A. Yes, I have seen that document.

9 Q. Now, Lieutenant, in the first paragraph of this document, first

10 and second paragraphs, Lieutenant-Colonel Meille sets out what he

11 characterises as very serious offence, attacks on civilian targets in the

12 city of Sarajevo using very powerful bombs as well as heavy artillery.

13 Now, based on your military experience, your experience with mortars, and

14 your knowledge of the situation at the time, was the placement of ABiH,

15 Bosnian Army, 82-millimetre mortars 500 metres behind the PTT building

16 sufficient to attract fire of the power and calibre that General --

17 Colonel Meille is -- has set out in this document?

18 A. Not where those rounds landed. Perhaps I can explain. Mortars

19 are not always the most accurate of weapons, but generally we fire more

20 than one round and most rounds hit where they're supposed to hit. They

21 might be short every now and then, but when they are very specific --

22 numerous rounds hitting in one area we cannot consider that a short. And

23 300 metres or 400 or 500 metres away is a different target. It's not

24 collateral damage.

25 Q. So an object 300, 400 or 500 metres away, as it was in this

Page 554

1 circumstance, in your opinion, based on your experience, can't

2 legitimately be claimed the target of the rounds that hit the PTT building

3 and the TV building?

4 A. That's what I'm saying.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MS. EDGERTON: I don't have any further questions

7 Questioned by the Court:

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Witness, can I just clarify one question.

9 From where the fire was supposed to have emanated, could the target, that

10 is to say the mortar -- the Bosnian mortars, could they be seen or do

11 they -- would they have to shoot over the building?

12 A. You -- they could not be seen from where they were firing, but

13 they could be -- the firing could be observed from elsewhere.


15 A. And then the unit designed to target it could be somewhere else.

16 That's quite possible.

17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Maybe I could ask one question of clarification.

18 I mean, would this have any impact on the precision with which you would

19 fire? If you can't see the target, would you have to measure to calculate

20 the elevation of your mortar?

21 A. Well, as a general rule, mortar men firing their mortars never see

22 the target they're hitting because they're firing 2 or 3 or 4 kilometres

23 away and they're firing from behind protected positions. Observers who --

24 who's task it is to find a target and give it to the mortar guns will do

25 that and ensure that the firing is accurate.

Page 555

1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: So they could have targeted the Bosnian mortars

3 500 metres behind the building and missed?

4 A. They could have, sir, but -- and missed with one round perhaps,

5 but not with all rounds.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Lieutenant-Colonel -- you want to say something?

7 MS. EDGERTON: To refresh Your Honours' memory from yesterday, and

8 in the context of questions that Your Honour is posing, I'd like to take

9 this opportunity to direct your attention to one of the exhibits which my

10 learned friend admitted to the authenticity of and was admitted into

11 evidence today and that is P42.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much.

13 MS. EDGERTON: And your indulgence one further time, Your Honour.

14 I note that my learned friend refers to two documents in her

15 cross-examination without tendering them into evidence, and maybe we could

16 deal with that quickly. The numbers my case manager has provided me with

17 are PT 00103 and PT 02364. Do I have the numbers correct?

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let's ask Ms. Isailovic whether she wishes

19 to have these tendered as exhibits.

20 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, please. I would like to

21 thank Ms. Bosnjakovic for having identified the documents. I apologise.

22 I forgot that this should be done, so I would like these documents to be

23 admitted. Thank you.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: And what are their numbers? No, please give

25 them --

Page 556

1 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm not able --

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please give them numbers, Defence exhibits.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter number 00103 will become

4 Exhibit D11. And 65 ter number 02364 will become Exhibit D12.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

6 Lieutenant-Colonel, that concludes your evidence. Thanks for

7 giving it and you may now leave.

8 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, that concludes my time before you

11 today.


13 MS. EDGERTON: And we are ready to proceed with the next witness.

14 I would just perhaps note the time and ask Your Honour's indulgence for a

15 few moments so that I can log out of my computer and the technology and my

16 colleague can log in.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we'll give you a few minutes.

18 Please call the next witness.

19 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, Your Honours, the next witness is

20 Milan Mandilovic.

21 MR. WAESPI: Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours.


23 MR. WAESPI: I would just like to take the opportunity to

24 introduce Mr. Manoj Sachdeva, trial attorney on the team. It's his first

25 appearance this afternoon.

Page 557

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

6 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

8 And you may proceed, Mr. Sachdeva.

9 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 Examination by Mr. Sachdeva:

13 Q. Sir, good afternoon.

14 A. Good afternoon.

15 Q. Could you please state your full name, your place and date of

16 birth.

17 A. My last name is Mandilovic, first name Milan. I was born on the

18 16th of June, 1949, in Novi Sad.

19 Q. I'm going to ask you some questions about your personal

20 background --

21 MR. SACHDEVA: And, Mr. President, Your Honours, if I could take

22 your leave to lead the witness through these issues since I submit they

23 are not disputed.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, you may.

25 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 558

1 Q. Dr. Mandilovic, you are an ear, nose, and throat surgeon. Is that

2 right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you currently work at the State Hospital in Sarajevo?

5 A. That's true.

6 Q. And you qualified as a doctor in 1975. Is that right?

7 A. That's right.

8 Q. And you became an ENT specialist in 1986?

9 A. That's right.

10 Q. Prior to that you joined the Yugoslav national army in 1978 and

11 you joined the medical corps. Is that correct?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. And you reached the rank of major?

14 A. Yes, but not in 1978.

15 Q. When did you reach the rank of major?

16 A. In 1989.

17 Q. And you started to work at the JNA hospital in Sarajevo in 1982.

18 Is that right?

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. And just to be clear, during the period August 1994 through to

21 November 1995, you were the chief of the ear, nose, and throat surgery

22 department at that hospital?

23 A. That's right. Yes.

24 Q. During that period, apart from your work in the ear, nose, and

25 throat department, did you perform any other medical obligations or any

Page 559

1 other medical work obligations?

2 A. Yes, I did. During the war, there is no strict division in

3 medicine -- in medical practice; therefore, one is compelled, depending on

4 what one is faced in the hospital, do or assist with all kinds of

5 injuries, not only from your field of specialty. In addition to that, for

6 the most part of the war, apart from my regular duties, I constantly

7 visited ER and -- in our hospital --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Intensive care unit in our hospital

10 and dressed the wounds there.


12 Q. Now I'm going to ask you a few questions about the hospital where

13 you worked. Just prior to the onset of the conflict, that is in April

14 1992, was the hospital a military or civilian hospital?

15 A. It's a military hospital.

16 Q. Did that status change at any time?

17 A. The status of the hospital changed on the 10th of May, 1992.

18 Q. And did it become a civilian hospital?

19 A. Yes, it became a civilian hospital.

20 Q. And what did it be come to be called?

21 A. It immediately became a State Hospital. There was a certain

22 moment which I don't think was very important, but during the visit of

23 President Mitterrand to Sarajevo, an idea emerged in cooperation with some

24 humanitarian organisations that the hospital could be renamed French

25 hospital. And in fact, in official documents, for a few months it was

Page 560

1 called that. However, thanks to humanitarian aid and connections with

2 some other organisations, the -- it became the State Hospital and it kept

3 that name throughout the war and after the Dayton Accords were signed and

4 after the war itself.

5 Q. Thank you for that clarification. Now, although the status

6 changed to a civilian hospital, did you throughout the war continue to

7 accept military patients?

8 A. Yes, we did. We received all the patients that came to see us,

9 regardless of the gender, the age, the religion, and whether they were

10 civilians or military personnel.

11 Q. I will ask you a few more questions in a few moments about the

12 admissions, but for now --

13 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, Your Honours, I would like to show

14 the witness a map, and that is 65 ter number 2738. Mr. President, I ask

15 your indulgence when it comes up.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we are waiting for it to appear.

17 MR. SACHDEVA: Oh, there it is.

18 Q. Dr. Mandilovic, do you see the map in front of you on your screen?

19 A. I do, but I would be thankful it could be -- if it could be

20 increased because it's too small.

21 Q. Absolutely. I'm going to ask for that to be zoomed in slightly,

22 if possible, by the court usher. Thank you.

23 Is that the city of Sarajevo depicted there?

24 A. Yes it is.

25 Q. And are you able to locate the State Hospital on that map?

Page 561

1 A. Yes, I can. Here it is. How am I to point it?

2 Q. If you can just point at it on the monitor for now.

3 A. Here it is.

4 Q. Can I ask you to take a pen or a marker and -- Doctor, I'll just

5 give you the instruction. If you could place a circle around the hospital

6 and to the side of the circle just mark the letters SH, please.

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. Now, also on that map, do you see the location of the -- the other

9 hospital, Kosevo Hospital?

10 A. I do.

11 Q. Can you please do the same, put a circle around the hospital and

12 mark the letters KH to the side. Thank you.

13 A. [Marks]

14 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, Your Honours, I would like to offer

15 that into evidence.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let it be numbered.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit P46.

18 MR. SACHDEVA: Perhaps that's -- before that's done,

19 Dr. Mandilovic can sign at the bottom.

20 Q. Could you please sign at the bottom of the map. Thank you.

21 A. [Marks]

22 MR. SACHDEVA: I offer that into evidence.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let that be given a number.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be P46.

25 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 562

1 Q. Doctor, during the period August 1994 through to November 1995,

2 were there any armed soldiers in the hospital?

3 A. No, there weren't.

4 Q. Did you ever see the ABiH, that is the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

5 fire mortars from the grounds of the hospital during that time-period?

6 A. No, I didn't.

7 Q. Did you ever see or notice any ABiH tanks or other heavy weaponry

8 in and around the hospital complex during that time-period?

9 A. No, I didn't, but I believe that it wasn't possible at all because

10 the hospital is located in the town between two streets. So this kind of

11 weapon could not have enough maneuverability, but that's my opinion and I

12 think that was the case.

13 Q. Thank you for that clarification. Were there any other military

14 facilities in and around the hospital during that period, Dr. Mandilovic?

15 A. No. Military facilities, no, but within the hospital compound

16 was, or rather, in the park around the hospital was the building that was

17 a rehabilitation centre for members of the armed forces of Bosnia and

18 Herzegovina.

19 Q. And who typically were working inside that building?

20 A. Those were mobilised doctors and nurses. They were not on the

21 hospital staff, but were rather members, I believe, of the 1st Corps of

22 the BH army.

23 Q. Were there any armed soldiers at that rehabilitation centre?

24 A. No, I didn't see any. There may have been some guard duty going

25 on there, but not that I saw it.

Page 563

1 Q. Now, I want to ask you in the time-period of, again, August 1994

2 through to November 1995, was the State Hospital the subject of sniping or

3 shelling attacks?

4 A. I cannot say whether it was a direct target, but in the period

5 that you referred to, there were hits, the hospital building was hit, the

6 main building of the hospital was hit, and it's a 12-storey building, and

7 there were both kind of hits. Whether they were deliberate or random,

8 it's very difficult to say.

9 Q. When you say "both kind of hits," can you please explain what you

10 mean by that.

11 A. I mean that the hospital was exposed both to artillery fire and to

12 sniper fire at certain periods of time, but I cannot be specific. I am

13 not an expert in that area. I would not presume to give such a decisive

14 assessment, but the very look of the hospital clearly indicates that it

15 had sustained a large number of destructive hits of various intensity.

16 Q. And just in relation to the building itself, these destructive

17 hits, where were they -- where were they sustained? Which part of the

18 building were they to be seen?

19 A. Literally on all 12 floors. There is not a single floor in this

20 hospital that wasn't affected by these destructive impact of artillery

21 weapons.

22 Q. Was there a particular side of the hospital that saw more hits

23 than other sides?

24 A. The southern part of the building was affected much more than the

25 other parts of the building. The southern part.

Page 564

1 Q. Where did the southern part of the building face, towards which

2 direction?

3 A. The southern part I -- pardon me, overlooks Marijin Dvor - it's a

4 large square - the Miljacka River, and across the river Miljacka it

5 overlooks the slopes of Mount Trebevic.

6 Q. Are you able to say where these hits or where these, as you said,

7 shelling and sniping emanated from?

8 A. Throughout the war, not only in the period that you are referring

9 to but throughout the war, I think that the general area of the hospital

10 and Marijin Dvor, where the hospital is located, was exposed to sniper

11 fire from the Jewish cemetery and from Grbavica.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the basis for your knowledge?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The basis of our knowledge is that

14 throughout the war, not only in the years that we are talking about, we

15 constantly had wounded people coming from the location close to --

16 locations close to the hospital, and according to all the indicators, had

17 been wounded by sniper hits, according to patients' statements and to the

18 statements of those who brought them to hospital.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Sachdeva.

20 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.

21 Q. Dr. Mandilovic, you mentioned in your previous answer to my

22 question the areas of the Jewish cemetery and Grbavica. Please tell the

23 Court which party to the conflict controlled those areas.

24 A. Throughout the war, these areas were under the control of the Army

25 of Republika Srpska.

Page 565

1 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, Your Honours, I'm not sure what time

2 a break is taken. I'm happy to continue, but ...

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: It should be now, yes. We'll take the break now.

4 We'll break for 20 minutes.

5 --- Recess taken at 5.33 p.m.

6 [The witness stands down]

7 --- On resuming at 5.54 p.m.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Please continue, Mr. Sachdeva.

9 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is the witness here? Why isn't the witness here?

11 [The witness takes the stand]

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please continue, Mr. Sachdeva.


14 Q. Dr. Mandilovic, just a question of clarification from

15 Mr. President's question to you. You told the Court that the sniper fire

16 came from Grbavica and the Jewish cemetery according to your knowledge.

17 What I want to ask you is: On what basis do you say that the fire, the

18 sniper fire, came from those areas? How do you know that?

19 A. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough. A person hit by a --

20 by sniper fire is unable to go to the hospital on his own. Somebody must

21 go and fetch him. That information, coupled with the location where this

22 happened, were an indication enough for us to know where the best spots

23 were for general movement and crossing open spaces and so on and so forth,

24 and that's from what we were able to infer where the fire was coming from.

25 Q. So the location you talk about where it gave you an indication

Page 566

1 where these incidents happened, why do you say that location -- from that

2 location you could infer that the fire, as you said, came from Grbavica

3 and the Jewish cemetery? What was particular about that location?

4 A. The point is as follows. These were two locations that were

5 literally part of town. The separation line was the Miljacka River.

6 Because of the proximity of the enemy line, as it were, the injuries were

7 precise and frequent because the distances were short.

8 Q. How far was Marijin Dvor from Grbavica, as the crow flies, if you

9 can tell?

10 A. Several hundred metres as the crow flies. The Jewish cemetery was

11 particularly close. It is on somewhat higher ground, and from the Jewish

12 cemetery one has an excellent view of the area where Marijin Dvor is and

13 the railway station. The Jewish cemetery is on somewhat higher ground.

14 It is on the headland of Mount Trebevic and offers, affords, a good view

15 of the area.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva, may I just have something

17 clarified. This witness is not a 92 ter witness.

18 MR. SACHDEVA: That's correct, Mr. President. This witness is not

19 a 92 ter witness.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: So you're examining the witness in chief?

21 MR. SACHDEVA: That's correct. And I anticipate being another 25

22 minutes.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.


25 Q. Doctor, you earlier talked about during the war and not just the

Page 567

1 period of August 1994 to November 1995, that all 12 floors of the building

2 were subjected to sniping and shelling. Do you recall a particular

3 incident in the period August to -- August 1994 through to November 1995,

4 a particular shelling incident where you were personally involved? And if

5 you do recall, please describe that incident to the Court.

6 A. The hospital building itself was an object of extensive

7 destruction, of course. I have to be quite precise and I'm sure I won't

8 be wrong if I say that the destruction of the hospital was more extensive

9 in 1992 and 1993 than in that period; however, I was unfortunate enough to

10 personally take part in one such event. This was in late summer of 1994.

11 At that time there was no electricity. The elevators were not in

12 operation, and I was taking the staircase to reach the 12th floor where my

13 ward was. When I was at the level of the 11th floor, the entire structure

14 was shaken. It was a clear, sunny day, but at that point everything went

15 pitch black. As it became lighter and as I looked at my colleague who was

16 a nurse with me there, we were all covered in soot. Our clothes were

17 grey, and that was the closest I came in touch with danger throughout the

18 war because I had never been closer to a shell impact than I was at that

19 point in time.

20 Q. Were there any injuries in that incident you describe?

21 A. No, no. I wasn't injured. An investigation was carried out

22 afterwards. The projectile entered a room on the 11th floor and exploded

23 there. Since the door to that room was closed and I was in the stairwell

24 outside the corridor leading to that room, neither my colleague nor I

25 sustained any injuries.

Page 568

1 Q. I want to ask you also about sniping. Do you recall a particular

2 incident where people in the hospital were hit by sniper fire during the

3 period August 1994 through to November 1995?

4 A. I do recall that as well. I wasn't on duty on that day; however,

5 as we had 24-hour shifts, which meant that we would work for 24 hours and

6 then rest for 24 hours, when I went to work the following day and I was

7 touring patients, there was a -- I heard that there was a sniper incident

8 that two patients had been hit in their extremities. I think it was in

9 the summer of 1995. These were just slight injuries to tissue, and it all

10 ended well, but nevertheless it happened. To make matters quite clear, I

11 have to tell you that this did not take place in the central building of

12 the hospital, the 12th-storey building, but in an annex to the west toward

13 the railway station, which was some four storeys high, and I believe that

14 the incident took place on the third floor.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we're wondering

17 whether the Prosecutor could tell us the following when Mr. Mandilovic was

18 referring to this first incident, what was the date of that incident and I

19 wasn't able to infer from the documents because we have 34 of them.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't exactly recall the date. Do

21 you mean when I experienced the direct impact?

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, sir.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't give you the date. I only

24 know that it was in late summer -- at any rate, summer of 1994. I know

25 that for a fact.

Page 569

1 MR. SACHDEVA: I think that's what the witness initially said,

2 Mr. President, late summer 1994.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Continue.


5 Q. Doctor, in addition to your observations, being a doctor in the

6 hospital, but also as a citizen of Sarajevo, how would you describe the

7 shelling and sniping in the city of Sarajevo between the periods August

8 1994 through to November 1995? Very briefly, if you will.

9 A. I think that I said something to that effect already. The fact is

10 that 1994 and 1995 were, in view of the citizens of Sarajevo, somewhat

11 easier; and if you allow me, I can explain that in a couple of sentences.

12 The intensity of fighting was somewhat less, probably thanks to politics.

13 The Blue Routes were partially opened, which were used to bring food and

14 medical supplies to Sarajevo. Of course, they were open only partially

15 and the -- these periods were short-lived. They would be closed soon

16 thereafter. There was several attempts to fix the power supply at last,

17 although this was also short-lived. However, generally speaking, the

18 situation was somewhat better.

19 On the other hand, we were already in the third year of the war

20 and the population was exhausted, both psychologically and physically.

21 They were experiencing all the effects that such a situation entails. It

22 is very difficult to live through such a long time-period in a town under

23 siege without the basic necessities of life with the separation lines

24 running so close.

25 Q. Doctor, if I could just ask you. You said that the -- there was

Page 570

1 several attempts to fix the power supply. I want to ask you: Why did the

2 power supply need to be fixed? Why was it broken?

3 A. I can't tell you that. I don't know. But the fact of the matter

4 is that as of May or June - it's difficult for me to pin-point the time -

5 of 1992, Sarajevo did not have electricity. I can't tell you that we did

6 not have electricity all the time, but generally speaking, there was none

7 to be had in the town, in the hospital. Throughout that time, we were

8 able to work thanks to the generators that we had and that we used

9 sparingly and rationally. I'm speaking as a civilian now, not as a member

10 of the hospital staff. We were looking forward to having regular

11 electricity; however, from day-to-day we would have it sporadically

12 because it would soon be cut off because someone had done something to it

13 and so on.

14 Q. Now, in the period, again August 1994 through to November 1995,

15 can you say something about the frequency of patients or admissions in

16 your hospital with shelling and sniping injuries?

17 A. Regardless of what I said just a while ago, and I do still abide

18 by that, that the intensity of fighting was somewhat less in that period,

19 still there was a war on and tensions were escalating. I personally have

20 two events firmly etched in my mind because they marked the onset of

21 terrible, complete destruction. This was the 16th of June, 1995, and I

22 remember this date because of this other thing, and which is simply that

23 it's my birthday. On that date, the army -- the BH army started an

24 attempt to lift the blockade of Sarajevo. The following day is also fresh

25 in my memory, which is the day of the Markale massacre, which took place

Page 571

1 at the end of August 1995.

2 Q. I will ask you questions about those two incidents you speak about

3 in a moment, but I just want to get back to the general situation. Let me

4 put it this way: Did you -- did your hospital receive patients on a

5 weekly basis or on a daily basis or on a monthly basis that showed

6 shelling and sniping injuries?

7 A. Our hospital was open 24 hours a day. As I said at the start of

8 my testimony, our hospital admitted everyone. I can tell you that not a

9 week passed by without there having been persons brought in, either due to

10 sniping or shelling. They were brought in from different locations

11 because only three hospitals in the town provided surgical care.

12 Depending on the locality where the event would happen, the patients would

13 be taken to one of these hospitals. I repeat, we would constantly admit

14 persons. There wasn't a week that went by without there having been

15 patients coming in. Of course, the numbers of persons coming in varied.

16 It is difficult to tell you the precise number, but you have the hospital

17 records which give an accurate reflection of the numbers of patients

18 brought in and the times of their admission.

19 Q. The persons that were brought in, as you say, on a weekly basis,

20 could you give us an estimate of the ratio between the military -- because

21 you said that you still continued to receive military patients, but the

22 ratio between military personnel and civilians being brought into the

23 hospital at that time?

24 A. I believe that throughout the war, including the period we're

25 discussing right now, the approximate ratio was 80:20 per cent in favour

Page 572

1 of civilians. In other words, the number of injured civilians was always

2 vastly greater than the number of military personnel admitted into our

3 hospital.

4 Q. How did you establish these people were civilians?

5 A. One of the significant elements involved in the admission of

6 patients was their personal background and their personal data, names,

7 age, place of birth, and so on, and it was on the basis of this that we

8 would admit them. Also what was taken into account was the way the

9 patients were brought into the hospital, whether it was by way of a

10 vehicle belonging to an organisation or institution or whether they were

11 brought in by people, passers-by, their friends or members of their

12 family. In addition to that, military personnel would have military IDs

13 on them, they would be uniformed; and on the basis of that, we could

14 easily establish whether a person was a civilian or military personnel.

15 Q. Now, among the 80 per cent or so of the civilians that were

16 brought into your hospital, what types of injuries did you and your

17 colleagues observe when they were brought in?

18 A. Look, it is difficult to give you a precise answer now. When it

19 comes to Sarajevo, there were two types of injuries: Injuries caused by

20 shell shrapnel and injuries caused by gun-fire. The difference is easily

21 visible because the tissue damaged by a shell is vastly damaged. You have

22 lesions, you have bone fractures, injuries inflicted on extremities,

23 whereas gun-fire injuries show the -- the point where bullets entered and

24 exited and so on and so forth, and they are by far less severe, which does

25 not mean that gun-fire injuries are less dangerous. The point at matter

Page 573

1 is which part of body was hit by shrapnel or by a bullet, but I repeat,

2 the difference is easy to be seen.

3 Q. Earlier on you mentioned the market massacre in August 1995. Do

4 you recall the date that the -- the precise date of that incident?

5 A. I think it was the 28th of August, 1995, in the morning hours. I

6 was on duty that day. I do remember that.

7 Q. And please describe to the Court what was the situation like in

8 your hospital on that day, very briefly if you can.

9 A. It was in the morning that all of a sudden - and there had been

10 silence in the town - a strong detonation could be heard and one could not

11 assess the distance. Sometime later, cars started flowing in,

12 privately-owned cars, ambulances, bringing in large numbers of seriously

13 wounded persons, and I say "seriously wounded," because one could

14 immediately observe that the injuries were caused by shell shrapnel.

15 These were gashing lacerations on different parts of bodies, depending on

16 where the person had been hit.

17 At that point in time, as the vehicles were pouring in, bringing

18 the wounded, we were overcrowding down there in the emergency ward. We

19 resorted to the principles of wartime surgery, and these are principles

20 governing situations where you have to deal with large numbers of wounded

21 people in a very short period of time. We conducted triage, which meant

22 that we examined the injured person, assessed his or her health condition,

23 which was to tell us how urgent the treatment of that particular wounded

24 is.

25 What does this mean? This means that you have to first treat

Page 574

1 those who are critically wounded, whose life was in danger, and to go on

2 from there.

3 Q. Just three brief questions from your answer, if I may. Firstly,

4 how far as the crow flies was your hospital from -- from where the

5 marketplace was, roughly?

6 A. Perhaps a thousand metres as the crow flies.

7 Q. And you mentioned that persons were brought in. Were these

8 persons military or civilian or a mixture?

9 A. Again, most of them were civilians this time as well. I do recall

10 seeing a military person here and there, but their numbers were

11 negligible.

12 Q. How many persons, again roughly, were admitted to your hospital on

13 that day?

14 A. As far as I remember, at that point some 40 persons arrived at the

15 hospital. Of course not all of them were wounded equally or had the same

16 type of wounds.

17 Q. Now, Doctor, I want to ask you some more general questions about

18 life in Sarajevo. Firstly, with respect to public transport. Did you

19 ever take the tram during the period August 1994 through to November 1995?

20 A. No. The tram wasn't running in 1994. I believe it started

21 running when -- at the time the Dayton negotiations started, which was in

22 late 1995. I can't give you the exact date. I didn't take the tram

23 because as a matter of fact I didn't need to. I would go to work and back

24 from work on a military bus. We were lucky enough to have organised

25 transport.

Page 575

1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: On medical staff bus.


3 Q. During that period, however, were people taking trams on --

4 occasionally or frequently?

5 A. Yes, yes. I'm speaking as a civilian. I wondered how people

6 weren't afraid to take the tram that was running from the west to the east

7 across Marijin Dvor. The fact of the matter is - and I'm sure this can be

8 found in documents somewhere - there had been some incidents involving

9 trams and some people were seriously wounded while riding on trams. I

10 know that there were several such instances, but despite them, trams

11 continued running.

12 Q. When you say "some incidents," what do you mean? Which type of

13 incidents?

14 A. I think that there was sniper fire or some other sort of fire upon

15 trams. There were people wounded, and I recall seeing them at our

16 hospital because I remember people saying that they were injured while on

17 trams. This was in late 1995. There was constant media coverage of such

18 incidents, and I recall seeing destroyed trams with bloodstains all over

19 the seats and so on and so forth. So I do remember such incidents, and I

20 never rode on trams.

21 Q. Now, with respect to the sniping in the city, were you aware of

22 any measures that were taken by the people of Sarajevo to protect

23 themselves from sniping?

24 A. Yes, as the war went on, the services taking care of the

25 population in general, such as the civilian protection, tried to prevent

Page 576

1 sniping. At crossroads that were open to the locations that we mentioned

2 a while ago, they would place large concrete barricades, containers in two

3 or three rows in order to prevent such occurrences.

4 Q. Doctor, my last -- my penultimate question I should say. Were

5 you -- during the period of the war, and in particular through 1994 and

6 into 1995, were you ever prevented from leaving the city by the Bosnian

7 government authorities?

8 A. I didn't find myself in such a situation because I didn't ask to

9 leave the town. But realistically speaking, I don't think I would have

10 been able to leave. There was a war on, and persons with high

11 qualifications, specialists, are not allowed to leave that easily. I

12 mean, I'm just speaking hypothetically now, but I didn't ask to leave in

13 the first place.

14 Q. Very well. Now, I want to talk to you about hospital records.

15 Firstly, during your time at the State Hospital, did you come across

16 records that were issued by the hospital? Did you yourself issue records,

17 medical documents?

18 A. Despite the difficult situation, in all aspects that I spoke about

19 earlier, we were aware that records were a very important element in

20 medical field and otherwise. Therefore, each department had their own

21 protocol, each ward in the hospital, then the admission ward also had

22 their own records. So based on these protocols and records, one can

23 practically see when each patient was examined; what doctor's orders,

24 instructions, were; who was admitted to the hospital; how long they stayed

25 in the hospital; et cetera.

Page 577

1 Q. And with respect to hospital -- medical records from the Kosevo

2 Hospital, did you ever have occasion to see such records?

3 A. Of course, very often -- I don't mean their actual hospital books

4 and records, but I did see on many occasions their medical reports and

5 findings by their physicians. Why was that? And I would like to clarify

6 this. The reason was because that the Kosevo Hospital and our hospital

7 were the only real hospital in town at the time that offered all kinds of

8 medical treatment to the sick and the injured, and there was an ongoing

9 cooperation between our two institutions. And very frequently a patient,

10 or rather, an injured person would be examined and given medical

11 assistance in one hospital and would subsequently go for later checks --

12 check-ups in another hospital for a variety of reasons, whether he was

13 unable to come to the original hospital, the other one was closer to his

14 place of residence, there was shelling, et cetera. So as I said,

15 throughout the war we had very good cooperation and good understanding and

16 we were even close to one another physically. And we helped each other.

17 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, Your Honours, at this stage I intend

18 to offer into evidence a series of medical records from both those

19 institutions, the State and the Kosevo Hospitals. Now, in the interests

20 of time, there are about 70 to 100 pages, each representing a separate

21 medical record, which were shown to the witness in proofing and an

22 affidavit, so to speak, has been obtained containing the lists of those

23 records. And I would like to show that affidavit to the witness and ask

24 him a few questions about those records, the pages contained in the list.

25 The other alternative is to go through each document on the e-court one by

Page 578

1 one, and the Prosecution's submission is that clearly that would take time

2 and it's more efficient to -- for the court registrar to indicate a number

3 later.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'll consider that.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, let me hear your views on this

7 method of admitting these documents. Are you contesting this?

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, at that moment I

9 had a very important concentration before I started my cross-examinations

10 and we are nearing to tracing some documents at the last moment, virtually

11 in the last seconds, and due to the importance of this document, I really

12 didn't hear what was being discussed here and I do apologise if I've -- if

13 it is possible that I'm being told again what the matter is.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just repeat the method that you're proposing,

15 Mr. --

16 MR. SACHDEVA: Very well, Mr. President. What I would like to say

17 first is that the Defence and I also indicated to the Legal Officer the

18 documents that I have shown the witness in proofing and the exact pages

19 have been communicated to the Defence 72 hours before the witness was set

20 to testify, as was required by Mr. President and Your Honours. And the

21 suggestion is that rather than go through each document one by one on the

22 e-court, is to simply ask the witness whether he stands by his affidavit

23 here under oath and for those pages to be given an exhibit number by the

24 court officer, in the interests of time.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you have a copy of the affidavit,

Page 579

1 Mr. Tapuskovic?

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I do, Your Honours. And

3 that was precisely in front of us in the last few minutes, and at the very

4 last moment we detected a few things that the Prosecution failed to put on

5 e-court and it doesn't exist there in relation to the investigation that

6 was conducted on the 8th of November, 1994. And it probably overlaps with

7 this date. And we have uncovered a precious document for Defence a few

8 seconds ago and we sent a mail to the Prosecution, telling them that we

9 have no choice but to have these two documents tendered and used here, but

10 they were not either in the investigation mentioned here because that was

11 an UNPROFOR investigation, and I think that this document was not

12 presented to the witness, whereas it shows a lot, this document I mean.

13 I'm not insisting on this, Your Honours, that everything has to be

14 read from A to Z, but since we dealt with this, we managed somehow at the

15 very last moment to discover these two documents. I'm not trying to

16 compel anyone to do things that are unnecessary. However, in this

17 particular instance, I think this will be very useful for the Defence and

18 after what we heard the witness saying, we tried to search the e-court and

19 we found some things and we can definitely say that this document is not

20 on e-court. I do apologise to the Prosecution, but it doesn't exist

21 either in the documents presented to the witness relating to this criminal

22 investigation described under item --

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you saying that the document is not accurate?

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm not -- excuse me, can I have

25 a short consultation, please?

Page 580


2 [Defence counsel confer]

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Before you continue, let me just ask

4 Mr. Sachdeva, what are you hoping to establish by this document, by these

5 records?

6 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, if you're asking the relevance here

7 of the medical records, the Prosecution submits that they pertain to two

8 scheduled incidents appended to the amended indictment and they are

9 records of what we submit to be people that were injured in those

10 incidents. Perhaps, if I could just enlighten my learned friend, what I'm

11 proposing to do is to -- the document I'm speaking about is a spreadsheet,

12 so to speak, a Microsoft Word spreadsheet containing a list of records

13 that the witness has been shown. It is not a criminal investigation from

14 the 8th of August, 1994, and it is not something on the exhibit list.

15 It's simply a mechanism used to efficiently tender material that would

16 otherwise take over an hour, I would submit.


18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Mr. President, if

19 we are talking about the documents relating to injuries, I never had any

20 doubt about medical records of any physician for all these years in this

21 Tribunal. Of course, if this pertains to medical records, I'm not going

22 to dispute that. And in that respect we have a very clear position.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's really just a shorthand way of getting the

24 evidence in.

25 MR. SACHDEVA: Absolutely, Mr. President.

Page 581

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, then put it to the witness.

2 MR. SACHDEVA: Can the witness be shown ...

3 Q. Doctor, can you please turn to the last page of that document.

4 A. I did.

5 Q. Do you recognise your signature on that document?

6 A. Yes, I do. My signature and the date. Yes, that's my signature.

7 Q. And can you please confirm to the Court by looking through the

8 pages that the records -- the pages indicated on that document are records

9 that you have seen and confirmed the validity -- confirmed that they are

10 copies of valid medical records from Kosevo and State Hospital.

11 A. Both from the Kosevo Hospital and from the State Hospital, yes, I

12 confirm that and I stand by that firmly.

13 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I would like to offer the documents

14 contained in that spreadsheet into evidence, and the Prosecution submits

15 that the easiest way to identify the records would be to assign a P -- an

16 exhibit number to each and every page; in other words, the page as

17 identified by a separate ERN number, if it pleases you, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can we just examine one as an example? If you

19 look at number 14, just take --

20 MR. SACHDEVA: Absolutely.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- random number 14, the description is: "Eye

22 department, Kosevo Hospital, admission record." With what -- what would

23 that indicate, if I ask the witness?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This record shows the following:

25 The full name of the patient, the diagnosis, and the findings referring to

Page 582

1 the patient to be hospitalised.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, please.

3 [Trial Chamber confers].

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: The only question that I have is whether even

5 acknowledging that it is a spreadsheet in the description section, whether

6 it wouldn't have been more helpful to have -- if we take number 14, what

7 the injury was, you know. What was the nature of the injury sustained,

8 you know.

9 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I -- the Prosecution would be happy

10 to do that. I would just add that what the witness is doing is simply

11 validating that these are credible records from his institution, and not

12 necessarily speaking to the contents. And we will be -- the Prosecution

13 will be bringing witnesses, live witnesses, 92 ter witnesses, some of whom

14 are victims -- who are victims, we allege, of these incidents and would

15 speak to the individual records. In addition, you would have, as we've

16 heard today, overview evidence about the people who were injured in these

17 incidents.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: You will be bringing witnesses from the scheduled

19 incidents and unscheduled who will speak to these injuries?

20 MR. SACHDEVA: Absolutely.


22 MR. SACHDEVA: Of course I can't say that they would speak to

23 every single record.


25 MR. SACHDEVA: However they will speak, for example, if they were

Page 583

1 injured to the cause of their injuries. What the witness is simply doing

2 is saying that they are valid records that he has seen in the course of

3 his work.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see no objection to admitting it. The Chamber

5 will admit it.

6 MR. SACHDEVA: I'm obliged, Mr. President.

7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: What was your proposal, Mr. Sachdeva, that each

9 page be given a separate exhibit number?

10 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, that couldn't be done now. The registry

12 will do that overnight.

13 And you take that approach -- why do you take that approach? Is

14 it because later on we may have to refer to these records?

15 MR. SACHDEVA: Absolutely. Also, they will be part of argument in

16 terms of the casualties we allege were caused by these incidents. And I

17 would also add that we have --

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: What I meant was why number them individually, as

19 distinct from globally.

20 MR. SACHDEVA: Because the records aren't all the same.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well.

22 The registry will do this exercise overnight because there are too

23 many to be tackled at this time.

24 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President. If I may continue.


Page 584

1 MR. SACHDEVA: I would just like to show the witness a still from

2 a video.


4 MR. SACHDEVA: And that will be the end of my examination.

5 [Videotape played]


7 Q. Doctor, do you recognise that building?

8 A. Yes, of course I do. This is the main building of the State

9 Hospital in Sarajevo.

10 Q. Which side of that building is shown on that still?

11 A. This is the southern side facing Mount Trebevic.

12 Q. And can you see damage on that side of the building?

13 A. Yes, I can see. Of course I can. Every storey has some kind of

14 damage. If I may observe the following: This is not the picture taken at

15 the end of the war because the damage was much more extensive at the end

16 of the war. If you look carefully at this picture, you can see that there

17 were a few intact windows, the window-panes are intact and not broken, but

18 if you look at this building towards the end of 1995 there was not a

19 single glass that was not broken on the hospital. This was my personal

20 observation because I kept looking at it all the time and I'm telling you

21 this from my own memory.

22 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, Your Honours, I would like to offer

23 that into evidence, that still, if it can be -- if it can be done.


25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P47.

Page 585

1 MR. SACHDEVA: And that's the examination-in-chief, Mr. President.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Sachdeva.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we have five minutes, please begin the

5 cross-examination.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I will

7 try to concentrate at least to one thing, and let it be, Your Honours, the

8 possibility for asking once again, or rather, putting map number 6 in

9 front of the witness. [In English] Thank you.

10 [Interpretation] But before that, I have to explain something to

11 you, Your Honours. Witness Mandilovic gave two statements. One he gave

12 on the 11th of February, 2000, at the time when -- actually referring to

13 the time and the events encompassed by the responsibility of Mr. Galic.

14 The second statement was given a few days ago on the 5th of January, 2007,

15 in English, through videolink if I understood correctly, or by phone, and

16 this statement was recorded in English. I don't know how much is

17 Mr. Mandilovic capable or how much -- or what his command of English

18 language and does he speak English.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I gave my statement in

20 Serbo-Croatian.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like an explanation from

22 the Prosecution because what he received is his statement in English, and

23 only after that, on last Friday, we received the translation.

24 Unfortunately, that was my -- our mistake. Perhaps we didn't have time to

25 give it to the accused; however, this is irrelevant. We are not objecting

Page 586

1 to this at this point in time. The only thing we would like to hear is to

2 get an explanation under which circumstances this statement was given, if

3 the OTP can provide us with this explanation, because the statement was

4 given over the phone in English and the witness doesn't speak English.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.

6 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I'd be glad to assist. Firstly, the

7 statement was not given over the phone, it was not taken over the phone;

8 it was done, as you said, on video, videolink. It was done with an

9 investigator and an interpreter in The Hague with the witness in the

10 Sarajevo field office of the United Nations with another investigator and

11 with another interpreter. There was, as we say, simultaneous

12 interpretation as the questions are being asked and answered and this is

13 how statements are done in the OTP. They are typically drawn up in

14 English after the witness has been given an opportunity to review it with

15 an interpreter by his or her side, and this was duly done in this

16 situation.

17 We immediately disclosed, because the Prosecution knew the witness

18 was supposed to come relatively earlier, we immediately disclosed the

19 English version and we sent it off to the CLSS unit for an official

20 translation. And as soon as that was completed, we disclosed it to the

21 Defence.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: When was that?

23 MR. SACHDEVA: The --

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: The translated version.

25 MR. SACHDEVA: If I may just confer with my case manager.

Page 587

1 [Prosecution counsel confer]

2 MR. SACHDEVA: That was on the 10th of January this year, Mr.

3 President.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

5 Cross-examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Mandilovic, we have just a few minutes left

7 before adjournment. Can we just look again where the hospital was

8 situated. Can you show us, please, on the screen.

9 A. This image here is blurred; it's a very bad image. It is

10 impossible to identify anything, not only the hospital, in this map that

11 you gave me. There's just a cluster of black squares signifying

12 facilities, and I cannot identify it.

13 Q. Can you just do it approximately?

14 A. Yes, I can do that approximately.

15 Q. Yes. And then you spoke about the hospital being mostly

16 threatened from Grbavica, and we all know here where Grbavica is, but can

17 you please show us where the Jewish cemetery is.

18 A. It's just across the road.

19 Q. Can you please show us where it is.

20 A. Here it is.

21 Q. Yes, thank you. So it is exactly under Debelo Brdo where the

22 Muslim forces were. Do you know that the Muslim forces were on Debelo

23 Brdo?

24 A. No.

25 Q. You don't know that. Am I right to say --

Page 588

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva is on his feet.

2 MR. SACHDEVA: Excuse me, Mr. President, and possibly this is a

3 little bit too late, but the witness has just said it is virtually

4 impossible for him to identify anything on this map, not only the

5 hospital, so I wonder the value of continuing with this line of

6 questioning where he is asked to mark particular areas and locations on

7 this map. Perhaps my learned friend could show Mr. Mandilovic the map

8 that the Prosecution showed him in chief. It might be easier for him.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: The question that he asked is: It is exactly on

10 Debelo Brdo where the Muslim forces were.

11 Do you know that the Muslim forces were on Debelo Brdo? Well, I

12 mean, the answer to that doesn't appear to me to require the witness

13 showing anything on the map.

14 MR. SACHDEVA: That's correct, Mr. President. I was referring to

15 the previous two questions, and I realise I rose a little bit late.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, let the witness answer and then we'll

17 have to adjourn.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I just received the answer, and

19 since the witness doesn't know I wasn't insisting so much and Mr. Sachdeva

20 is right. I didn't insist on whether the Muslim forces were there. This

21 is going to be proven in some other testimonies. I'm only asking whether

22 Debelo Brdo, the elevation of Debelo Brdo and in the way he showed us

23 indicates that the Jewish cemetery was very close to the bottom of Debelo

24 Brdo.

25 Q. Yes or no?

Page 589

1 A. Yes, it is below Debelo Brdo, but I don't know who held Debelo

2 Brdo.

3 Q. I didn't ask you that. How close was it. Have you ever been to

4 Debelo Brdo?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Even though you are from Sarajevo?

7 A. No, I've never been there.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if it is time to

9 adjourn -- I may continue, though --

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, we are past 7.00. We'll adjourn until

11 tomorrow at 2.15.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,

13 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 18th day of

14 January, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.