Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 590

1 Thursday, 18 January 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness enters court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Two administrative matters before we continue

7 with the evidence. I'll ask the court registrar to give us the result of

8 the work he did last night with the numbering of the medical records.

9 Do you wish to say something?

10 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes, please, Mr. President. Good afternoon to you

11 and to Your Honours. Something I meant to do last night after Your

12 Honours' decision about the affidavit, and that is simply to offer it into

13 evidence.


15 MR. SACHDEVA: I have the original.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's the affidavit being put in evidence now.


18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Yes. Please give that a number.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be admitted as number

20 P48. Additionally, the documents listed in the affidavit will have the

21 Exhibit numbers P49 through P82 respectively.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: And I understand the parties have been given a

23 copy of the document showing the numbering.

24 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: The next administrative matter relates to the

Page 591

1 filing of several motions for protective measures by the Prosecution, and

2 two of those relate to two witnesses who are to testify next week. The

3 motions were filed, the first one on the 17th of January, and the Defence

4 response is due on the 29th of January, but Witness 35 is scheduled to

5 testify on Monday morning.

6 This immediately raises a problem of the lateness of the filing,

7 Mr. Whiting, so I must ask in future that you ensure that sufficient time

8 is given for the Defence to reply before the witness is brought to court.

9 Of course, many of these matters are frequently dealt with, I

10 don't want to say routinely, but dealt with in court and dealt with very

11 quickly.

12 So I'm going to ask the Defence whether you would be in a position

13 to reply by tomorrow. If you can reply by tomorrow, by midday, then we

14 can issue a decision on this in the afternoon, orally, and the witness can

15 be brought in for Monday.

16 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. We

17 are going to give you our opinion orally now, and it's an affirmative

18 answer.

19 Regarding the witnesses that are already planned, we don't want to

20 create logistical problems for the Prosecution. I mean, we're in the same

21 boat, after all. So we agree for those two witnesses.

22 The Prosecution filed on January 11th another motion regarding the

23 testimony of these witnesses, according to Rule 92 ter. I think this is

24 Witness W83 and 36. So we agree for both of these witnesses. They can

25 testify according to Rule 92 ter.

Page 592

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: I take note of that. There is another motion for

2 protective measures filed on the 18th of January relating to Witness 62,

3 and there your response would be due on the 30th of January. Are you in a

4 position to comment on that now?

5 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. Witness

6 62, is he also planned to testify in the week -- in the coming?

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Yes, he is scheduled to testify on Monday

8 morning.

9 MS. ISAILOVIC: Well, unfortunately -- well, I have the list with

10 me, but I have to look in my documents. Could I please look -- will you

11 allow me a minute so I can look into my list, please, to see exactly who

12 it is?

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may inform us of that later so we can get on

14 with the proceedings.

15 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what we'll do. Thank

16 you very much, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Whiting.

18 MR. WHITING: Yes, just very briefly, Your Honour.

19 First of all, I would apologise for the late filings. Of course,

20 as Your Honour is aware, oftentimes these requests for protective measures

21 come only when we start to schedule and bring the witness here, so

22 that's -- and then we file it immediately, and so that's why that happens

23 sometimes. But we will try to do our best to make sure that the Defence

24 has enough time.

25 Secondly, I'm extremely grateful to the Defence for the

Page 593

1 accommodation with respect to responding both to the protective measures

2 motion and the 92 ter motion. It's an accommodation which we will

3 remember and I think we'll probably have occasion to return when they're

4 doing their case.

5 Just for the record, the two witnesses, however, for the 92 ter

6 it, it's 83 and 35, not 36, just so the record is clear. Those two

7 witnesses are scheduled to testify on Monday.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. And I commend the parties for their

9 spirit of cooperation. It's in the highest traditions of the bar.

10 Now, may I ask the --

11 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, please. So we also

12 agree for that witness. We just checked a minute ago. So for Witness

13 VW62, we agree.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

15 Mr. Tapuskovic now. And, Mr. Tapuskovic, you will have one hour

16 to complete the cross-examination.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, and I

18 hope that I will manage, and I must do my best to be as efficient as

19 possible. I'm also grateful for your assessment, and I deem it to be

20 sufficient.


22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 Cross-examination by Mr. Tapuskovic: [Continued]

24 Q. Mr. Mandilovic, my name is Branislav Tapuskovic, an attorney from

25 Belgrade, a Defence counsel for Dragomir Milosevic. And I would like to

Page 594

1 ask you, regarding what we discussed yesterday, about certain things that

2 you perhaps are able to tell us something from your direct experience or

3 if you have secondhand knowledge; and, if possible, I'm kindly asking you

4 to give me the briefest possible answers because time is the issue here.

5 And as far as I understand, you are going to comply.

6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the witness's

7 answer.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, will you reply orally, not just by

9 nodding your head.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: And what was the answer to the question?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I told Mr. Tapuskovic that I'm going

13 to do my best to comply with his requests.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I had to revise the

16 order of my questions, and I'm going to address something which is more

17 important for the accused. That is a specific event that was just tackled

18 somewhat yesterday, and it refers to the event which took place on the 8th

19 of November, 1994 - that is item 1 in the indictment - and the first event

20 described in the annex relating to the shelling. My initial questions

21 will be focused on this particular event.

22 Q. Mr. Witness, yesterday you described, if I may say, your most

23 difficult experience during the war that you survived. Is that true?

24 A. Yes. I described the event yesterday in response to the

25 Prosecutor's question.

Page 595

1 Q. Can you please explain: How is it possible that this experience,

2 which truly deserves to make others feel uncomfortable in the face of the

3 gravity, how is it possible that you don't remember the date of such an

4 event, if it was just a single event in which your life was threatened?

5 A. I cannot remember the date. There were so many similar events.

6 There were so many hits that targeted the southern part of the hospital,

7 but this one was unique because I was on that floor, and I was never

8 before or after that closer to an explosion. That was the point. But

9 otherwise, there were lots of similar situations.

10 Q. So that was the hit on the hospital?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Then I will curtail my questioning even more. The Prosecutor,

13 according to the list of the documents that they intend to enter as

14 evidence, specifically relating to the event of the 8th of November, 1994,

15 they show you a set of documents.

16 A. What kind of documents?

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters are kindly asking the speakers not

18 to overlap and to pause between questions and answers. Thank you.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, the interpreter is asking both

20 the witness and yourself not to overlap. Please observe a pause between

21 question and answer.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Item 3 in this list that concerns the event of the 8th of

24 November, 1994, speaks about a criminal investigation that the Prosecution

25 mentioned here and which, according to what I can see from this list, was

Page 596

1 something that you had probably been shown by the Prosecution.

2 A. I haven't seen this document, sir.


4 MR. SACHDEVA: Sorry, Mr. President, but I did not mention a

5 criminal investigation yesterday in my examination-in-chief.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: He said you are misquoting, Mr. Tapuskovic.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It is possible. Then I will

8 rephrase my question.

9 Q. You know nothing about the event of the 18th of November?

10 A. I haven't seen any document in relation to that.

11 Q. My question is: You know nothing about the event and the shell

12 that hit Livanjska Street and where some people were killed or injured?

13 A. I can't remember that.

14 Q. If you can't remember the date, did you have and opportunity to

15 see someone brought into the hospital on the 8th of November as a

16 casualty?

17 A. I just said I cannot remember the date, but believe me, for three

18 and a half years people were being brought in permanently, and it is

19 impossible to make difference and distinction between different weeks and

20 months. People came from different parts of town, injured by shells, by

21 grenades, by shrapnel. So even if I try my best, it is impossible to know

22 exactly who and when came to the hospital.

23 Q. Do you remember or can you say that on that day, do you know at

24 all that there was fierce fighting and shooting in Sarajevo and around?

25 A. Maybe. Maybe. Intense fighting was a very frequent occurrence,

Page 597

1 and there was shooting all the time.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in front of me I

3 have a document compiled by UNPROFOR which relates to that specific event

4 of the 8th of November which shows exactly what transpired. If he, as a

5 witness, cannot say anything about this but he confirms that there was

6 fighting around that time, I believe that I can suggest in this connection

7 and this time frame - and I know that the Prosecutor will object to this -

8 but this is the event in which an investigation by the Bosnian police

9 established that the projectile came from the Serbian positions - and I'm

10 talking again about the event of the 8th of November - and UNPROFOR

11 established quite the opposite; that the projectile was fired from inside

12 the town from the positions of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Sachdeva.

14 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, my learned friend is correct about

15 the objection. Firstly, the witness has not confirmed that he knows

16 anything about an incident on the 8th of November. Secondly, when asked

17 about intense fighting, his response was, "Maybe. Maybe. Intense

18 fighting was a very frequent occurrence and there was shooting all the

19 time." That's hardly a confirmation that there was fighting on that

20 particular day.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'd agree with the Prosecutor that there would be

23 no basis for further questioning along those lines. But if you wish to

24 put the incident to the witness, let him look at the document and to see

25 whether it refreshes his memory, then I have no objection to that. You

Page 598

1 may either just summarise the incident and ask whether his memory is

2 refreshed as to it and see whether we can get any further, but let us do

3 it quickly.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I will try.

5 Q. According to this report, and possibly there was some coverage in

6 the press about that, according to this UNPROFOR report which was quite

7 clear, the event took place on the 8th of November, 1994, at -- sorry, at

8 1725 hours. And in order to refresh your memory further, do you remember

9 that on that same day another event took place, a very serious event which

10 took place at 1530? Does that refresh your memory?

11 A. No, no. I'm sorry, I can't remember.

12 Q. Very well.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, you must move on now.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Of course, Your Honours, I'm

15 going to move on. This is the document, but it will soon be put on the

16 table again, and it will show what UNPROFOR had established. I do

17 acknowledge that your objection is warranted and well placed.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: You are not to give evidence, Mr. Tapuskovic.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No, no. I'm not giving evidence,

20 Your Honours. I'm going to use these documents later. I perfectly know

21 that I'm not here to give evidence. Documents will speak about this

22 event, not me.

23 Q. The next topic, Mr. Witness, would be these magical records that

24 have been mentioned. I'm interested in one thing: Did you sign each and

25 every record, and does that reflect your analysis, your diagnosis, and

Page 599

1 your conclusions?

2 A. Are you referring to the documents that have been handed over?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. I have analysed all these documents, and I stand by it, that these

5 are the records from the hospital in Sarajevo.

6 Q. But these are not the documents that you provided based on your

7 analysis and your diagnosis. You only confirmed that you had received it

8 from someone else, that it was correct.

9 A. Yes. And incidentally, among these about 100 documents, there are

10 two documents that I personally compiled and wrote with my own hand 13

11 years ago.

12 Q. So as for the others, you cannot confirm that they are 100 per

13 cent acceptable?

14 A. I confirm that they are 100 per cent acceptable. And I know very

15 well all the findings, and I recognise the handwritings of all the

16 physicians who signed these records.

17 Q. I have just received a piece of information from the Prosecution

18 yesterday, or the day before yesterday, which speaks about your account of

19 an incident in which two persons were injured in the hospital.

20 A. Yes. I described that event.

21 Q. Do you know their full names?

22 A. No, I don't, but I think that this can be found in the medical

23 records. However, at the moment I cannot remember.

24 Q. You said that they were hit through the window.

25 A. Yes. They were in the southern part of the hospital, facing the

Page 600

1 slopes of Trebevic, and they were hit by bullets from small arms.

2 Q. Very well. Thank you. I will now move on to questions relating

3 to the tram service that you described yesterday. Was there any

4 difference in how the trams were being targeted with respect to these two

5 periods? Because you had given two statements. Once you spoke about what

6 I asked about you yesterday and the second time you spoke about the

7 General Milosevic period. Was there any difference in how the trams were

8 targeted between these two different periods?

9 A. The tram service was reinstated in Sarajevo quite late. They ran

10 along the east-west and west-east line. And the service was resumed

11 rather late, and as far as I can remember it took place while the Dayton

12 negotiations were very intensively going on. And when there was an

13 official truce in place - and I remember then - these incidents did happen

14 in that specific period.

15 Q. Can you tell me, the bus that you used, which route did it take?

16 And if we can please have the map that we were using yesterday.

17 A. I will show you on the map if it is precise enough. I will --

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have map number 6

19 on the ELMO.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I made an objection yesterday. I

21 hope you would agree with that, that this is not a very clear and accurate

22 map. It is very difficult to find here because there are no streets

23 entered or plotted in the map. But I can tell you, I can describe to you,

24 the route that this bus used to take.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like you -- I would like

Page 601

1 this route that the witness is going to show be marked and that this be

2 tendered into evidence.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is there a number for this map?

4 MR. SACHDEVA: I think there is an electronic form which the

5 witness can mark. I'll have to confer about the number.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's map number 6.

7 I'm going to ask the Prosecution to try and get a better map of

8 Sarajevo. This one is admittedly not very clear.

9 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, we will try and do that. There is a

10 map that I used yesterday which, I submit, is clearer than this one, which

11 perhaps can be used. But if it is of some help, my case manager has

12 advised me that the PT number is 2738.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can we have PT2738. That apparently is a better

14 map. It's coming, I understand. It just takes a little time.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. This map that's on the -- or, rather, that's on our screens right

17 now, is that the one?

18 A. I don't know what this is. This is a map of Sarajevo, but this

19 apparently is not what we need. I don't know what that is.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, return the original map to the witness and

21 let him do the marking on that map, if he can, if he's able to.

22 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, perhaps now that the map is in full

23 screen the witness could do the markings.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: So we're back to the map which is on the screen.

25 MR. SACHDEVA: If it could be zoomed in, which would help.

Page 602

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a better map. Now we have a

2 much better situation.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is not the map

4 that I need. It is difficult for me to get what I need. It is difficult

5 for him to show.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. I'm sorry. I apologise.

7 It's very easy to do here because you can see the hospital here and the

8 road that I took toward the hospital.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Okay. Then please do go ahead and show us.

11 A. This here is the hospital. This would be the route, more or less,

12 but you cannot now ask me to be completely accurate because this is a very

13 small-scale map.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this into

15 evidence.


17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could this be given a number

18 immediately?

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Please give it a number.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] And I would like to ask the

21 witness the following:

22 Q. This is more or less the same route --

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's wait for the number from the registrar.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be admitted as Exhibit

25 D13.

Page 603

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I continue?

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Sir, this is the route, precisely the route that the tram takes;

5 right?

6 A. No, no. No way.

7 Q. But is it parallel to it?

8 A. Yes, this is parallel, and let me show you because you apparently

9 were not in Sarajevo. This was the so-called salvation route that went

10 parallel to the main road here, but it went behind the Marshal Tito

11 barracks and in front of the railway station. And as I mentioned

12 yesterday, at all the crossroads there were large screens placed in order

13 to safeguard the people against sniping.

14 Q. Thank you very much. Can you please tell me, while you took this

15 route on the bus were you ever fired upon?

16 A. No. No.

17 Q. Thank you. Yesterday, in answer to the questions asked by the

18 Prosecution, you said, if the interpretation was correct, that your

19 hospital was in a location that was about 1.000 metres from the

20 demarcation line.

21 A. No, no, less. Less than that. This is what I've already said.

22 It was about 500 metres. You are a little bit mixed up, sir. We spoke

23 about 1.000 metres in relation to the distance, as the crow flies, from

24 the Markale market to the hospital; that would be 1.000 metres. And here

25 I state that the hospital was about 500 metres away from the demarcation

Page 604

1 line.

2 Q. Fine. In your statement that you gave to the investigators on the

3 11th of February, when asked whether this was more or less what you said,

4 the distance was several hundred metres and that is why you had to move to

5 the opposite side of the building to be away from the demarcation line.

6 So you just moved within the hospital to the other side.

7 A. We did two things. We had to do two things. First of all, all

8 the patients and all the staff and all the equipment was moved to the

9 lower floors or to the ground floor in the basement in order to be able to

10 withstand the heavy artillery fire targeting the hospital.

11 Later on, as the number of patients increased - and this is

12 something we couldn't deal with - we were forced to put the less seriously

13 ill people on the lower floors of the hospital.

14 Q. Thank you. I don't want to waste too much time on these maps, but

15 I do have to ask you the following: The location that you showed us as

16 the place -- as the location where the hospital was, that was at this

17 distance that you specified from the front line, does that mean that the

18 hospital was -- the part of the hospital that was targeted, that it was

19 actually facing the front line?

20 A. Yes. The main entrance of the hospital faced south.

21 Q. Thank you very much. You spoke about this yesterday - and I don't

22 want to dwell on that - but let me ask you: The two points, Colina Kapa

23 and Debelo Brdo, they are the two dominant points, and of course the hill

24 of Trebevic.

25 A. What do you mean when you say "the dominant points"?

Page 605

1 Q. Well, these are two hills, two -- one is almost a thousand metres

2 high and the other is maybe 800. I can't remember the exact height.

3 Would those be the hills that dominated the hospital?

4 A. Yes. Yes.

5 Q. Now I would like to move on to a document. It's a document

6 D001078. That's --

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Judge Mindua has a question.

8 JUDGE MINDUA: Excuse me, sir. [No interpretation].

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm not getting any interpretation.

10 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Can you tell us how frequently --

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm sorry, Judge Mindua. I got no

12 interpretation. May I ask you to repeat your question.

13 JUDGE MINDUA: Yes, okay.

14 [Interpretation] Witness, I was asking you to tell us how

15 frequently the hospital was hit between the 10th of August, 1994, until

16 the 21st of November, 1995, i.e., the relevant period in the indictment.

17 How many shots were fired? Were there moments when there were fewer shots

18 or more shots? Was it cyclical or did this happen in a random fashion?

19 Could you expand on this a little bit, because we are particularly

20 interested in this question. Of course, could you also tell us whether

21 this was deliberate or not, according to you?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my testimony I said - and this is

23 something that I maintain to this day - that in 1994 and 1995, in other

24 words, the period that we're talking about, that it was a calmer period

25 from the point of view of our work in the hospital. And since the

Page 606

1 hospital was part of the city itself, this means that the life in the city

2 was calmer at this period.

3 What I want to say is that in this period the targeting of the

4 hospital and the city by artillery was less intense than in the previous

5 period. However, we cannot say that the hospital was not targeted at

6 all. There was shelling; there was rifle fire. I cannot state, as I sit

7 here today, whether this was deliberate or not.

8 It is a fact that the hospital was fired on, and this was

9 documented. So we do not have to rely on feeble human memory. We have

10 photographs to rely on, and this is an important historical document.

11 Those photographs are a historical record.

12 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Well, we have the document that I wanted on the screen, and now I

15 would like to ask you something about the page 3 of this document, and

16 it's page 3, last paragraph in the English version, too. Do you have this

17 in front of you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Third paragraph from the bottom, you say here:

20 "As the war in Sarajevo drew ever closer, I knew that I would face

21 a decision whether I should stay or go."

22 A. Yes, I agree.

23 Q. "I was never under any pressure to make the decision, and in the

24 end, in fact, we were informed that if we wanted to leave the State

25 Hospital we could do so and we would not suffer any consequences."

Page 607

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were you told this by the representatives of the Yugoslav People's

3 Army, that you were a member at the time as a doctor in the medical corps?

4 A. Yes, of course.

5 Q. Now, in the next paragraph:

6 "When the JNA withdrew from the State Hospital, I would not have

7 any difficulties in returning to Serbia because I was a citizen of

8 Yugoslavia. My decision was that I would stay in Sarajevo, which I did."

9 A. Yes. I stand by what I stated here.

10 Q. And now in the third paragraph, that's the last one, you stated

11 the following: --

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. -- "Making this decision was difficult because remaining behind

14 when your unit has left is, in effect, desertion."

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you go on to say:

17 "As a professional soldier, this is a step that is not undertaken

18 lightly. My decision to stay was based on two aspects."

19 Yes? Yes?

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, you have not read the statement

22 until the end.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. I wanted to make it easier for the interpreters. I will ask you

25 about the remainder of the statement, but could you please tell me, is

Page 608

1 this correct?

2 A. Yes, this correct. This is what I said; this is what I signed.

3 Q. "Firstly, I'm a doctor and it's my duty to provide medical care,

4 and that's why I stayed, for humanitarian reasons. Secondly, to leave

5 would have been a journey into the unknown, which I was not prepared to

6 undertake."

7 A. Yes, and I stand by what I stated at the time.

8 Q. In other words -- can I ask you yet another question?

9 A. Yes, you can.

10 Q. Had you gone, had you left, that would have meant that you would

11 have gone into exile. You would have remained -- you would have been

12 without your apartment, without your friends. It would have been a

13 journey into the unknown. You would have become a refugee.

14 A. Yes, perhaps, but this is not what I said. This is not what I

15 said. It is possible that this might be the case, but this is not what I

16 said.

17 Q. So this was something that was possible. Was this something that

18 110.000 people, Serbs, had to do? They had to leave. They had to leave

19 their homes, their houses, their friends, and they also left behind quite

20 a few of their relatives among the 40.000.

21 A. I can give you an answer, although this is not related to medical

22 matters. I don't know about the figures. The figures that you provide, I

23 cannot comment on it. I know quite a few Serbs that stayed. A lot of

24 them stayed. And I know that nobody was forced either to stay or to

25 leave, so I cannot really agree fully with your suggestion.

Page 609

1 Q. Can you agree to the fact that a lot of Serbs left immediately

2 when the fighting broke out?

3 A. Yes, that is quite evident. I remember that. But not only

4 Serbs. Let me be quite specific here. It is very important to note, in

5 order to have a full picture of the events in 1992, April and May, a large

6 number of Serbs left but a lot of Muslims left as well, Croats. And

7 figures that I'm sure the international community has show that, about

8 members of various ethnic communities in different countries, Germany,

9 Austria, the United States, even Holland. So we must not be very narrow

10 here. It was not just the Serbs that left. Everybody left.

11 Q. Well, I never drew any distinctions in this respect, but let me

12 ask you this: Is it true to say that it was mostly Serbs that left

13 Sarajevo when the war broke out?

14 A. Yes. It's difficult to say, but I do believe that this was the

15 case.

16 Q. You lived in Sarajevo for a long time.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And people of all religions, beliefs, lived there.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. It was a town that was well-known for its tolerance, its tolerant

21 atmosphere.

22 A. Yes, absolutely.

23 Q. And you know that among those 40 or 50.000 people who stayed, they

24 stayed although many of their closest relatives, fathers, children, had to

25 leave, and they had to stay in Sarajevo. Do you know of any such cases?

Page 610

1 A. No. No. I have to tell you the following: I worked in the

2 hospital with a lot of Serbs. You can see that from the protocols and

3 from the personnel files. But I don't know of any such cases, although

4 this cannot be ruled out. So I couldn't really agree with this argument

5 that you put forward now.

6 Q. So if that is the case, can you explain to me, please, you know

7 that there were quite a few Serbs in Sarajevo.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Without any strong military necessity, would the Serbian army

10 shell Sarajevo even though they knew that some of them would be killed,

11 that their --

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, the witness is not in a position

13 to answer that.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Let me move on now to

15 direct issues.

16 Q. I'm going back again to this document. There is one thing that I

17 would like to clarify together with you, and it refers to what is

18 contained in the first paragraph on page 4 of the English version, where

19 you say that the hospital was surrounded by the patriotic forces and that

20 an agreement was reached that the defence will remain. How long did this

21 siege or blockade of the hospital by the patriotic forces of Bosnia last?

22 A. In my estimate, around a month. But I would like to be more

23 accurate. This was not a classic siege. People were able to go in and

24 out of the hospital. The hospital staff was able to come in and go out.

25 There were only certain guards posted around the hospital that only

Page 611

1 controlled but did not prevent entry and exit. This is important to

2 underline, because the word "siege" means something completely different.

3 Q. Was there any shooting at the hospital? Were there any JNA

4 soldiers in or near the hospital?

5 A. There were JNA soldiers towards the end of April and beginning of

6 May in the hospital. That was, in fact, a unit of -- a special unit from

7 Nis that came from airport Pleso in Zagreb. They came in order to defend

8 the hospital. As far as I can remember, it was a 20-strong unit.

9 Q. Were there any clashes between them? Were there any casualties

10 among the soldiers?

11 A. No, no, no. I don't think so. As far as I can remember, no.

12 Q. I will need quite a lot of time to present my exhibits.

13 Was it also true that all the barracks in town were under the

14 blockade of members of the patriotic units?

15 A. Yes. Yes. As far as I can remember, yes. I wasn't in those

16 barracks. I was in the hospital, but not until the very end. And I would

17 like to underline that as well. I left the hospital on the 3rd of May, so

18 I wasn't there at the moment when the hospital was handed over. But I

19 know that there were barracks; I know that from the media and from other

20 people's accounts.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.

22 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I just wanted to get clarification

23 as to the year, the exact year when the witness is talking about May and

24 April.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness answer that.

Page 612

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1992.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I was referring to that period as

3 well, when the fighting began. I will obviously have to tender document

4 DD00-1 ---

5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 0166.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It's, in fact, a document from

7 the Federal Secretariat for National Defence addressed to the Presidency

8 of BH. It's currently being translated. It's a very short document, and

9 I would just like to read one sentence to the witness in order for me to

10 be able to continue my examination.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, go ahead, and let the witness see the

12 document.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I would just like to ask the

14 witness one thing concerning this document, where it says:

15 Q. "Understandably" - that's the third paragraph - "Understandably,

16 it is necessary to ensure the adherence to what we agreed at the meeting

17 in Skopje."

18 A. I can't see this paragraph.

19 Q. That's paragraph three on page 1.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.

21 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I'd just like to know the basis

22 of -- you know, how this witness is being shown this document.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Precisely what the witness said

24 about all the barracks in town being surrounded by the patriotic forces,

25 and I think an explanation was required what these patriotic forces were.

Page 613

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those were Territorial Defence

2 forces of BH.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. That's a different matter. What is written in this letter, that

5 the barracks were surrounded, is that true or not?

6 A. I wasn't in any of the barracks, Mr. Defence Counsel.

7 Q. You gave me a good reply, that you heard about that.

8 A. Yes, yes, yes.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 A. You're welcome.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: The witness has said he wasn't in the barracks,

12 so he's not able to confirm the proposition that you put.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] But he heard about it secondhand.

14 Q. Did the same thing happen to the barracks as happened to the State

15 Hospital, i.e., that it was surrounded by the patriotic forces for almost

16 a month? Did the same thing happen with other facilities in the city of

17 Sarajevo, primarily the military facilities?

18 A. I didn't see it for myself, but I believe that was the case.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am kindly asking

21 you - and I think that we are having technical problems for which I'm

22 absolutely not to blame - to take into account when you decide on what

23 time I will be allocated for my cross-examination.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm not aware of any technical problems that have

25 hindered your cross-examination, Mr. Tapuskovic. Please proceed. By my

Page 614

1 reckoning, you have another seven -- 10 minutes.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, we wasted, certainly, seven

3 or eight minutes with this map, and I believe that surely, under such

4 circumstances, I will find it difficult.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, we'll give you another five minutes to

6 those 10, in light of that.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I just received a suggestion from

8 the accused.

9 Q. This State Hospital was, in fact, a military hospital at that

10 point in time when these things were happening, and it was precisely

11 surrounded as a military facility.

12 A. I never denied that. It was a military hospital, and it was under

13 the control of the BH Territorial Defence. It was not surrounded, because

14 surrounding is something different and controlling a facility are

15 completely different things. People came freely in and out to be

16 examined; nobody checked them. But it was under certain supervision.

17 Q. Were soldiers able to leave?

18 A. What soldiers?

19 Q. JNA soldiers.

20 A. Yeah, they were free to go.

21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters are unable to interpret this

22 overlapping conversation.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Witness, Dr. Mandilovic and Mr. Tapuskovic,

24 the interpreters are having difficulty because you're overlapping. You

25 speak the same language, so please observe a pause between question and

Page 615

1 answer.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. President. I

3 apologise, Mr. President. I'll do my best.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Although there are lots of things

5 to be covered, a lot of ground to be covered, I will have to move on to

6 another document, DD000192.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please continue.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] This, unfortunately, was

9 something which we received but were completely unable to prepare

10 ourselves, and that is why my cross-examination is taking as long as it is

11 taking.

12 This is his statement given on the 5th of January of this year,

13 and we were totally unable to discuss it with the accused or to draw

14 certain parallels between the two statements, which caused terrible

15 difficulties for the Defence in examining this witness. I will try in a

16 few minutes to wrap this up, if it is possible, and to clarify these two

17 things and draw parallels between the two statements that we received on

18 the very eve of the beginning of this trial. And it was totally

19 impossible to check anything.

20 I can finalise my examination on condition that we are being

21 allowed to consult and confer with our client, and at any other time, when

22 Mr. Mandilovic is available, I would like for him to come again because

23 this is not the way to do the cross-examination properly, in the time that

24 is allocated to us. And that is why I'm facing these difficulties. It's

25 up to you to take a decision on this matter.

Page 616

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why are you only raising this matter now,

2 Mr. Tapuskovic? Why are you now only informing the Chamber that you only

3 received a second statement on the eve of the trial? Proper management

4 would have dictated that you should have brought this to the attention of

5 the Chamber before.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I raised this issue yesterday

7 about the time, and I counted on that I would have enough time and didn't

8 want to cause any problems. But that was the first issue that I raised

9 yesterday, that his statement was given via videolink which had put us in

10 a situation where we could not highlight the basic things and to draw

11 parallels and comparisons between the statements. In one statement he

12 spoke about one period; in the second statement he spoke about the General

13 Milosevic period. And that is what created all these troubles for us, and

14 I did raise it at the very beginning.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Continue with your cross-examination.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I've already moved to this

17 statement. I'll have to adhere to that. And whenever you say that I

18 should finish, I will finish. And it seems that I won't be able to ask a

19 whole series of questions that I had originally intended to. But let me

20 ask him at least this:

21 Q. Sir, you spoke about a lot of things that had changed in

22 comparison to the time that you described.

23 A. Are you referring to the years of 1994 and 1995?

24 Q. Yes. But I'm particularly interested in the period which is the

25 summer of 1995 and the events that happened in summer of 1995.

Page 617

1 A. I spoke about that yesterday and earlier, that the year 1995 was

2 the year in which the population of the city was very much exhausted and

3 fatigued and psychologically totally devastated. But I can say one other

4 thing, that the year 1995, compared to the previous years of war, was

5 calmer. There were longer periods of cessation of fire that were agreed.

6 Thanks mostly to the pressure of the international community, there was

7 more food because the routes were opened. But I never said - and I

8 confirm that today - that there weren't any serious fighting and that

9 there weren't any serious shelling of the city of Sarajevo.

10 In my statement, if you remember I mentioned yesterday two events

11 that took place in 1995 --

12 Q. That is not what I was asking you. You didn't answer my

13 question. My attention was focused in my question on the summer of 1995,

14 primarily May, June, and July, because I would like to hear something

15 about that period because that is the only thing left to me to ask you

16 about.

17 A. From that period, the most striking memory that I have, that is,

18 the early summer of 1995 - and I said that yesterday as well - is the date

19 the 16th of June, 1995, the dawn of that day, when an attempt started to

20 lift the blockade by the forces inside the town.

21 Q. Did that take place after a relatively good period? Did you know

22 that there was truce in force since January?

23 A. No, no, no, no, no. These military and political documents were

24 not available to me in my position, and I couldn't have known that.

25 Q. And in the summer of 1995, could you see that there was shooting

Page 618

1 from both sides and that it started as you described it started, that the

2 fierceness of the shooting was equal and even?

3 A. It's difficult for me to say. I was in a specific location, and

4 the ring around Sarajevo was about 60 kilometres long. I couldn't tell

5 you who started shooting and when shooting started. I'm not a competent

6 person to discuss that. Nor was I present there, nor was I in a

7 position. The only thing that I can tell you is that on that specific

8 date, terrible detonations were heard in town; a large number of shells

9 landed in the town. Both on the 16th, the 17th, and the 18th of June was

10 the period of intensive shelling of the town.

11 Q. You don't know about what happened at the Serb side?

12 A. The Serb side? I don't know how I could tell you anything about

13 what was happening at the Serb side.

14 Q. Yes. But in paragraph 14 -- when I asked you, you said you didn't

15 know anything about political and military events. But did you say in

16 paragraph 14 of this document -- perhaps we can call find it here. That

17 would be page 4, but it's marked as paragraph 14 anyway. I can see this

18 paragraph on our screens.

19 You said that there was talk of peace and that everybody was

20 hoping there would be peace and then this offensive was launched.

21 A. Are you talking about the 14th -- paragraph 14? It says here I

22 was on duty whilst the attack on Markale was made. At first we in the

23 hospital were all really shocked.

24 Q. I'm asking you about this peace. You say, "By this time the

25 people were exhausted by the war. There was talk of peace." This is what

Page 619

1 I'm asking you about. And then the events of the summer followed.

2 A. Yes. Quite --

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber has considered the matter. We will

4 allow you to go to the break if you need that time.

5 Mr. Sachdeva.

6 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I was just going to inquire. The

7 question seemed to talk about the 16th of June, and paragraph 14 that's

8 being referred to refers to, as the witness said, the Markale incident,

9 which was in August 1995. So if I could elicit some clarity from counsel

10 about the time period, please.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the date that you're addressing,

12 Mr. Tapuskovic?

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm referring to the entire

14 summer of 1995. I know what happened at Markale. And I would like to say

15 one thing once again, Your Honours. I will not say this again: When I

16 deal with documents, because we are stretched for time, I don't want the

17 witness to read the whole document and then to examine him. I'm focusing

18 on the elements that are of interest to me. And if something is not the

19 way I put it to the witness, the Prosecution always has the time to

20 correct this, to deal with this in the re-examination.

21 This, however, infringes on my right to the cross-examination. If

22 I misquote something, if I did something wrong, the Prosecution has to

23 deal with it in the re-examination. I did not misquote the witness at

24 all. This is about Markale. But my question to the witness was that in

25 the same paragraph --

Page 620

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me just say something in relation to that.

2 Re-examination has a particular purpose, and any party has a right to

3 object to a question being asked. It doesn't necessarily follow that the

4 question relates to a matter that is to be dealt with in re-examination.

5 So please proceed.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. My question was: Paragraph 14 says that. "By 1995 the people

8 were exhausted by the war. There was talk of peace." This is what it

9 says here, and then -- is it true that there was this talk of peace, that

10 people were saying, "Well, we will have peace soon"?

11 A. People sincerely wanted to have peace, but for all intents and

12 purposes there was no peace until the Dayton Peace Agreement came into

13 force.

14 Q. But you said that there was talk of peace.

15 A. Yes, of course.

16 Q. You know that for four months there was a cessation of

17 hostilities.

18 A. No. No. I don't agree with what you say about the four months of

19 peace. This is something that I cannot agree with, because it was

20 completely impossible to have such a long period of peace in the besieged

21 town of Sarajevo. You would have maybe a couple of days of cease-fire and

22 then the hostilities would escalate and the international community would

23 intervene; then there would be more escalation. Four months, it's a very

24 long time period. And I absolutely do not agree with your estimate, with

25 what you are saying.

Page 621

1 Q. So what you said here, that there was talk of peace in this

2 period, this is not correct?

3 A. Yes, it is correct, but it doesn't mean that there was peace. Do

4 you see the difference? Do you know what I mean?

5 The people were following the reports in the media, because there

6 were many international observers and reporters in Sarajevo. Sarajevo

7 was, in fact, the centre of the world. There was a lot of pressure

8 there. People were talking about the need for peace.

9 Q. And then what happened?

10 A. I don't know what happened. All I know is that there was some

11 fighting, an escalation, and then it was later on from the media, domestic

12 and foreign, we learned that there was an attempt to lift the siege of

13 Sarajevo. But this is something that I didn't know at the time because I

14 moved in very limited circles and my contacts were limited. And now

15 you're asking me questions that belong to the highest military and

16 political spheres.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, do you now want to

18 tell me that now my time is up? So do I still have a couple of more

19 minutes?

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: I said earlier that we'd allow you to go to the

21 break, which is at 3.45 - that's another seven minutes - if you need that

22 time. If you don't, we'll proceed with the re-examination.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Well, from the documents that I've shown the witness, you said

25 that it was -- the situation with the water and power improved a little

Page 622

1 bit.

2 A. Yes, to a certain extent.

3 Q. Do you know that in this period the water supply system from the

4 Neretva functioned quite well, the cable?

5 A. Well, I really don't know about that. This is not something that

6 I was acquainted with.

7 Q. And that in this period, from the end of 1994 and then onwards,

8 the parties that had the greatest need for power, there were no power

9 cuts. This is what President Izetbegovic said.

10 A. I don't know who said what. I just know the situation that I

11 faced either as a citizen in my own home or in the hospital as an

12 employee. But I did not move in those circles and I could not really give

13 you an answer.

14 Q. Sir, I received hundreds of pages appended to your statement.

15 They were -- all these documents were in Serbian, and of course there's no

16 chance for me to be able to tender any of them. But there is a document

17 that pertains to early 1995, and it is stated there that most of the

18 problems with the power were caused by the very harsh weather conditions,

19 because there was a lot of snow in this year, and that this was the main

20 reason for the power cuts. The power installations, there were a lot

21 of -- they were out of order most of the time.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I will tender this document

23 through some other witness, but I merely wanted to focus on this period

24 1995 that the grid would break down.

25 I can see that the Prosecutor seems to be on the verge of

Page 623

1 objecting, as if this is something that is not correct, but I'm asking you

2 whether you are aware of this or not.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Tapuskovic, the UNPROFOR can

4 give you the best possible answer to that, because they monitored the

5 situation all the time.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. This thing that I said is something that I read in a document that

8 originates -- that was drafted by the technical staff and the civilian

9 staff, civil servants of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10 A. I don't know about that, but I maintain what I said.

11 Q. Now, I can't decide between the two alternatives. It would really

12 be difficult for me to choose among the dozen or so questions that I still

13 have, so let this conclude my cross-examination and let this be my

14 responsibility for any prejudice that this might cause to my client.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Tapuskovic.

16 Re-examination?

17 MR. SACHDEVA: No questions in re-examination, Mr. President.

18 Questioned by the Court:

19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Mandilovic, I would like to put a question to

20 you, the purpose of which is to find out what seems to be the issue at

21 stake here. From the last part of the Defence counsel's

22 cross-examination, there seems to be an uncertainty as to the conditions

23 in Sarajevo in the spring, the first half, at least, of 1995. And I do

24 find that there is some unclarity in the statements that you have offered,

25 because on the one hand you did say at a certain time that you thought

Page 624

1 that 1995 was the best and the calmest year compared to the preceding

2 years. So I'm left with the impression that actually things became quite

3 good, at least in the first half of 1995.

4 Then on the other hand you also mention that on your birthday, I

5 believe, on the 16th of June, the Bosnian army's attempt to break out

6 began, and that this did cause some retaliation from the other side. And

7 we have also spoken about the Markale 2 incident that occurred in August.

8 So my question to you is: Have I understood you correctly when

9 you say that at least until the summer of 1995, the situation in Sarajevo

10 was more quiet, more calm, than in the previous year? And when I ask you

11 this question, I do understand that at no time were there no hostilities.

12 They were constantly shelling and firing, but it was on a general level,

13 less aggressive in the spring of 1995 than it used to be the previous

14 year. Can you elaborate a little on this question, sir. Thank you very

15 much.

16 A. I agree, Your Honour, with what you say, with your assessment of

17 the situation, and I stand behind what I said. It is my assertion that

18 1995 was, for all us in the besieged town of Sarajevo, much easier to

19 bear. But I personally like what you have just said, that there was

20 fighting all the time in the town. That is a fact.

21 I merely wanted to compare 1992 and 1993 with the end of 1994 and

22 1995. If you compare these two time periods, certainly the latter two

23 years were very much easier than the previous two. That is for sure. But

24 at no point in time did the danger cease to exist. If you wanted to

25 survive, you had to abide by certain rules, the rules that had been in

Page 625

1 existence for a long time. There was a shortage of everything.

2 Your Honour, I've already spoken about this, but let me be quite

3 specific. I spoke about the Blue Routes. They did open, but then they

4 would close down again for reasons that are unknown to me. And when they

5 were open, we would get a little bit more food and a little bit more

6 medical supplies. But there were no Blue Routes in 1992 and 1993. We had

7 no contacts with the outside world.

8 But I think that you actually hit the nail on the head here.

9 There was fighting at all times. It's just that there would be longer

10 lulls between two bouts of fighting. And if you look at it in terms of

11 percentages, there would be a larger percentage of peaceful days in the

12 latter period than in the former one.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Dr. Mandilovic, that concludes your evidence and

14 you may now leave.

15 In fact, we are now going to take the break, and we will resume

16 with the next witness.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 [The witness withdrew]

19 --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 4.07 p.m.

21 [The witness enters court]

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

23 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

24 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Docherty.

Page 626

1 MR. DOCHERTY: Yes, Your Honour.


3 Examination by Mr. Dochtery:

4 Q. Please be seated, sir. Sir, may I ask you to begin by stating

5 your name.

6 A. My name is Thorbjorn Overgard.

7 Q. Mr. Overgard, what is it that you do for a living?

8 A. I'm a major in the Norwegian Air Force.

9 Q. What sorts of things do you do right now in the Norwegian Air

10 Force?

11 A. I'm the commanding officer of an air base, NATO's most northern

12 air base.

13 Q. And how old were you when you joined the armed forces of Norway?

14 A. I was 17 years.

15 Q. When you joined the armed forces, which particular branch of the

16 service did you join - the army, the navy, or the air force?

17 A. I started with the army, in the infantry.

18 Q. How many years were you an infantryman before you switched to the

19 air force?

20 A. I was six, seven years.

21 Q. And what year was it that you switched over to the air force?

22 A. 1982.

23 Q. Have you been in the air force continuously since 1982?

24 A. Yes, I have.

25 Q. Some questions, sir, about your education. Did you attend a

Page 627

1 formal university?

2 A. No. I have the war academy.

3 Q. And what place, just briefly, does the war academy play in the

4 training of Norwegian military officers?

5 A. It's the main school to get you prepared for the duties you are

6 going to do and to get, you could say, to be a regular officer and then

7 start your career.

8 Q. So if I understand properly, to be a career commissioned officer,

9 one must attend the war college?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How long does the war college last?

12 A. For one year.

13 Q. Now, through your military background and experience, have you

14 become familiar with various infantry small arms?

15 A. Yes, of course.

16 Q. Are you familiar with a type of ammunition that's often referred

17 to it as 7.62-millimetre ammunition?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. To begin with, could you tell Their Honours what those numbers,

20 7.62, refer to.

21 A. 7.62 is the case of the bullet. It's the length of it.

22 Q. All right. And what sorts of guns would fire 7.62-millimetre --

23 not highly specific, but, in general, what sorts of guns are we talking

24 about?

25 A. Small arms for infantry soldiers.

Page 628

1 Q. Are you also familiar with a type of ammunition referred to as

2 12.7-millimetre?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And, again, does the 12.7 refer to the length of the bullet's

5 case?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. All right. What sorts of weapons fire 12.7-millimetre ammunition?

8 A. It used to be only the machine-guns, heavy machine-guns, but

9 lately we have seen sniper rifles with 7.62 --

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Ms. Isailovic is on her feet.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, but this is extremely

12 fast. The interpreters are rushing. The witness and Mr. Docherty are

13 both English speakers and everything is extremely fast. And the French

14 translator is doing her best, but it is extremely fast.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, we'll ask the counsel and the witness to

16 speak a little more slowly.

17 MR. DOCHERTY: I take the point, Your Honour, because we're both

18 English speakers. I was not aware of the problem. I will slow down.

19 Q. Major Overgard, as an air force officer, are you also familiar

20 with the types of ordnance that can be dropped from or fired from

21 aircraft?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Before October of 1994, had you ever worked as -- the abbreviation

24 is UNMO, United Nations Military Observer [Realtime transcript read in

25 error "Owner"]?

Page 629

1 A. No, I have not. I joined an UNMO course in Finland in May 1994.

2 Q. When you say that you joined an UNMO course in Finland, what was

3 this Finnish course about?

4 A. It is a course especially for educating UNMOs from Scandinavia

5 mostly, but all other UN countries are also present there.

6 Q. And during time of war, what is the job of an UNMO?

7 A. It is to observe, investigate and to report, and we're reporting

8 directly to the Security Council.

9 Q. Is this dangerous work?

10 A. Yes. You are unarmed and you are living in villages together with

11 the people, in the war area. And we are facing the same problems as the

12 people in the villages are.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: At line 13, the question, there's a reference to

14 "military owner." It should be "military observer." It's on the

15 transcript.

16 MR. DOCHERTY: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Did you serve, Major Overgard, as an UNMO in Bosnia?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In what part of Bosnia?

20 A. I started special training in Zagreb and then I was sent to

21 Sarajevo, after 10 days -- six days in Zagreb. It was just testing about

22 if I had the necessary UNMO skills.

23 Q. And when? What were the dates that you started and ended working

24 as an UNMO in Bosnia?

25 A. I arrived in Zagreb the 22nd of October, 1994, and we left Zagreb

Page 630

1 again the 3rd of November, 1995.

2 Q. Did you volunteer to work as an UNMO or did the Norwegian Air

3 Force order you to Bosnia?

4 A. I volunteered. I thought that was an interesting duty and I

5 wanted to see how I functioned also during war activities.

6 Q. I'm going to ask a couple of more questions about the training you

7 undertook in Finland early -- in the first half of 1994. Can you tell us,

8 please, what sorts of topics were covered in the curriculum of this

9 Finnish UNMO course.

10 A. It was investigation of various types of events, accidents,

11 shooting, and this crater analysis.

12 Q. When you say "crater analysis," what does that mean?

13 A. It is craters after mortar and heavier weapons. I don't remember

14 especially the name for it, but when it comes to weapons going up and

15 coming down again, fired from the ground.

16 Q. And how long was the Finnish UNMO course from start to finish?

17 A. It was three weeks.

18 Q. Of those three weeks, how much was devoted to crater analysis?

19 A. We had a lot of training in that, several different exercises.

20 Q. And what is the point of analysing a crater? When one analyses a

21 crater, what questions is one seeking the answers to?

22 A. It is to find the origin and try to establish where it was fired

23 from.

24 Q. After completing this course, did you feel competent to analyse

25 craters?

Page 631

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. When you got to Bosnia, did you, in fact, analyse craters?

3 A. Yes, and a lot of them.

4 Q. A lot of them. Did you ever feel handicapped in the work you did

5 in Bosnia by any lack of rigor or thoroughness in the Finnish course?

6 A. No, not at all.

7 Q. And you've told us the date on which you arrived in the Balkans.

8 When was it that you arrived in Sarajevo?

9 A. I arrived in Sarajevo then around the 30th, I believe it was, the

10 22nd -- yeah, around -- I don't remember the date just now, but it was

11 late October.

12 Q. Late October --

13 A. Yeah.

14 Q. -- of 1994?

15 A. 1994, yes.

16 Q. Where were you stationed when you first arrived in Sarajevo?

17 A. I was first stationed into a team called Sierra Whisky 1. It was

18 a Blue 3 team outside Sarajevo on the Serbian side.

19 Q. And how long did you remain at Sierra Whisky 1?

20 A. Approximately 10 days.

21 Q. From your service, are you familiar with the geography of

22 Sarajevo?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. All right. And could you locate on a map the positions at which

25 you were stationed?

Page 632

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. All right.

3 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President, Your Honours, if I could please ask

4 that Exhibit -- 65 ter number 2823 be displayed on the monitor to the

5 witness and the courtroom personnel.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let that be done.


8 Q. Do you see that in front of you?

9 A. No. I have no map in front of me.

10 Q. I'm sorry, it takes a little time.

11 After Sierra Whisky 1 were you moved to another location?

12 A. Yes, we were. They needed people or new UNMOs in Sierra Sierra 2,

13 I think it was called, before Christmas, and me and a Dutch man were

14 placed into Sierra Sierra 2, in Hrasnica.

15 Q. Now, you're being handed a silver pen, and with that silver pen --

16 first of all, is the map that's on the monitor a map of Hrasnica?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you find your location on that map and mark it with the pen.

19 A. Yes. We were somewhere in these houses. It has to be here.

20 Q. Where the red dot appears?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can I ask you, just so that it's easier to see, to circle that red

23 dot. It's rather small.

24 A. Yes. In this area here.

25 Q. Thank you, sir. What side of the confrontation lines was Sierra

Page 633

1 Whisky 1 on?

2 A. It's on the -- it's the Serbian side.

3 Q. I'm sorry, I meant the one in Hrasnica.

4 A. Sierra Sierra 2 was a pocket south of the airport in Sarajevo, the

5 Muslim side.

6 Q. Now, you were at the post on the Serbian side for a relatively

7 short time; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Why were you on the Serbian side for only, I think, nine or ten

10 days?

11 A. They had no other place to put us when we came, and as people are

12 leaving - it's a team of people from all nations - and that's why after 10

13 days I was transferred to Hrasnica. We were also in this team two

14 Norwegians, so that is not by the book.

15 Q. People should be of different nationalities on a team?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. All right.

18 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President, Your Honours, may I ask that the

19 image on the screen be frozen and given a P number and entered into

20 evidence.


22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be admitted as P83.

23 MR. DOCHERTY: Thank you.

24 Q. How long did you remain in Hrasnica?

25 A. I stayed there until the 1st of May, 1995.

Page 634

1 Q. During your time in Hrasnica, which was approximately seven

2 months?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. During your time in Hrasnica, did you investigate incidents of

5 sniping?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you investigate incidents of shelling?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you investigate incidents concerning air bombs?

10 A. I had one, yes.

11 Q. I'm going to come back to each of those. But to set the stage,

12 Hrasnica is south of the airport; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And where is Mount Igman in relation to Hrasnica?

15 A. From Hrasnica, Mount Igman is the mountain going right up,

16 straight up, into the hillside. The foot of Igman.

17 Q. I apologise for interrupting. Would it be fair to say that

18 Hrasnica is between Mount Igman and the airport?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Were there Bosnian army -- Bosnian Muslim troops in Hrasnica?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And were there military targets in Hrasnica?

23 A. Not especially targets. I believe they were having their

24 headquarters -- one company headquarter close to the front line, against

25 Ilidza, and then battalion headquarters further east.

Page 635

1 Q. And during the time that you were in Hrasnica, you indicated that

2 you had investigated incidents of sniping.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you tell us, when you say you investigated incidents of

5 sniping, what that means? You get to a sniping scene and a person has

6 been shot. What do you do? Just walk us through the process, please.

7 A. Well, first we have to find out how this -- which way was this

8 person facing when he was hit, and after that we have to investigate the

9 body to see the incoming-outgoing wounds.

10 Q. All right.

11 A. And from that we determine the direction it came, it's coming

12 from.

13 Q. During this time that you were in Hrasnica, would you say that the

14 city of Sarajevo was under siege?

15 A. Yeah.

16 Q. Would you say that Hrasnica was under siege?

17 A. Definitely, yes.

18 Q. Were you aware of where the confrontation lines were?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you investigate an incident of sniping in Hrasnica where you

21 determined the source of fire to be anything other than a position in

22 Bosnian Serb-held territory?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Of the incidents of sniping that you investigated during your time

25 in Hrasnica, how many times was it that a soldier or other member of the

Page 636

1 armed forces had been shot?

2 A. Sniping, none.

3 Q. Turning now to shelling, and I'm speaking of mortars and artillery

4 pieces. Air bomb will be later.

5 How frequently did you investigate a shelling incident? How

6 often?

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty.

8 MR. DOCHERTY: I apologise, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, please.

10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Please continue.


13 Q. Mr. Overgard, the pending question was how frequently did you

14 investigate a shelling incident during your time as an UNMO in Hrasnica?

15 A. Well, in the period of especially November and beginning of

16 December 1994, it was nearly daily.

17 Q. And I perhaps neglected to ask this question a few minutes ago.

18 How frequently did you investigate an incident of sniping during your time

19 in Hrasnica?

20 A. Very often. It was also a lot of incidents of that. I can't say

21 daily, but very often.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Judge Mindua has a question.

23 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes. Major, please, you said that

24 you also investigated the bodies; you had to look at the bodies when there

25 were sniping attacks. So I'd like to know whether you also work with

Page 637

1 forensic scientists? Do you work in isolation or do you work with the

2 forensic scientist?

3 THE WITNESS: We worked together with the civilian police of

4 Hrasnica and inspected the bodies, but we did not turn them around or

5 something. We just saw where is the incoming, where is the outgoing

6 wound.

7 JUDGE MINDUA: Thank you.


9 Q. Major Overgard, just following up on His Honour's question, can

10 you distinguish a gunshot wound of entrance from a gunshot wound of exit?

11 A. Yes, of course. An incoming or ingoing wound is a -- more hole,

12 but after the bullet -- when it goes out, it takes pieces with it.

13 Q. So a bigger hole and --

14 A. Yeah, a bigger hole, and you can clearly see where it comes out.

15 Q. I asked you earlier how you went about investigating sniping

16 incidents. I have the same question for shelling incidents. There is an

17 explosion. A shell has fallen somewhere. You go to the scene. Just walk

18 us through what happens next.

19 A. Yes. You find the crater, and in the crater, normally the tail of

20 the weapon is still there.

21 Q. Why is that important?

22 A. Because when it is into solid ground, it has an angle, and from

23 the angle you can determine where it was fired from. Not exactly but from

24 which area, generally.

25 Q. And what does -- the shape of the crater and the pattern with

Page 638

1 which things have been ejected from the crater, are those important things

2 to consider as well?

3 A. Yes. In the front of where it's coming from, it comes in at an

4 angle, and in the front area we have a lot of more shrapnel and marks on

5 the ground than in the back area, because when it has an angle coming in,

6 it will spread that way out, and things coming out on the lower side will

7 go straight down to the ground.

8 Q. And because the court reporter can't capture hand movements, I'll

9 take the liberty of summarising in words what you were just

10 demonstrating - and please correct me if I am wrong - that matter is

11 ejected from the front of a crater. Is that accurate?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 A. We also use a compass then to get exactly which direction it comes

15 from.

16 Q. And from the angle, which you determine from the tail, and from

17 the direction, which you determine from the ejection of debris pattern,

18 can you determine where a particular mortar or artillery round was fired

19 from?

20 A. Yes, you can. Say it's a general area, not exactly, but you can

21 be sure that it's in within a certain limited area.

22 Q. And I ask this question about sniping. I'll ask it again about

23 mortaring and shelling. In your time at Hrasnica, did you ever

24 investigate a shelling incident in which the source of fire was determined

25 to be anything other than Bosnian Serb-held territory?

Page 639

1 A. No.

2 Q. And in the shelling incidents which you investigated during your

3 time in Hrasnica, how many members of the armed forces lost their lives?

4 A. There were not too many of them we saw, that's for sure. The

5 investigations we did were normally for civilian -- when civilians had

6 been targeted or hit.

7 Q. I want to direct your attention now to a type of weapon that is

8 commonly referred to by the name "air bomb." If I use that word, do you

9 know what I am referring to?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. All right. Can you tell the Court what you understand by the term

12 "air bomb"?

13 A. A bomb of the old type is something dropped over an area from an

14 aeroplane, and that is an air bomb, just coming down somewhere in that

15 area and dropping it.

16 Q. Were air bombs used in -- was there an incident of an air bomb

17 being used in Hrasnica during your time there?

18 A. Yes, there was one.

19 Q. What was the date of that incident?

20 A. 7th of April, 1995.

21 Q. Was that bomb dropped from an aeroplane?

22 A. No. That's a -- I've never seen before or after that it comes --

23 fired from the ground.

24 Q. How was it done? Were you able to determine from your

25 investigation how it came about that this bomb could be moved from the

Page 640

1 place of origin to the place of impact without using an aeroplane?

2 A. Yes. It was tied up with six rockets, and the rockets were the

3 engine for the bomb. It was then fired from a truck on the Ilidza side of

4 the confrontation line.

5 Q. And when you say it was fired from a truck on the Ilidza side, two

6 questions: First of all, was Ilidza under the control of the Bosnian

7 Muslims or the Bosnian Serbs?

8 A. The Serbs, the Bosnian Serbs.

9 Q. All right. And how did you come about the information that you've

10 just told us about where this bomb was fired from?

11 A. It is -- the people on Mount Igman had witnessed this one, the

12 direction it came from. That was from witness statements. And when it

13 had landed, all the windows in that direction were broken for a couple

14 hundred metres, for 300 metres. And that was not on the other side, on

15 the eastern side of the crater there.

16 Q. And what conclusion were you able to draw from the fact that the

17 windows were broken primarily on the eastern side of the point of impact?

18 A. That the witness told us what happened and that was right, that it

19 came --

20 Q. In other words, your investigation corroborated what the witness

21 on Mount Igman had told you.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What kind of an area had this bomb come down in?

24 A. Civilian houses.

25 Q. Had anyone lost their life?

Page 641

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you tell us -- did you go to the scene?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What did you see?

5 A. When we arrived, we found the house totally demolished. There was

6 nothing, not a brick standing nearly. One wall. But the side where the

7 bomb hit was totally torn down to small bits and pieces.

8 Q. Did you see any human bodies in this rubble?

9 A. Yes, I saw one or two legs coming out some pile of stones. They

10 were not moving. But as I discovered that, the local commander came and

11 called upon us and said that we should not be there first to investigate.

12 Q. All right. And this was the -- when you say local commander, this

13 was the commander of the Bosnian Muslim troops in Hrasnica?

14 A. Yeah, 4th Motorised Brigade.

15 Q. And did you leave, as he had told you to do?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. How long were you gone from the scene?

18 A. We went back to our accommodation, and when we came there, he had

19 posted three soldiers there that would keep us inside our accommodation.

20 Q. How long were you inside your accommodation?

21 A. Until late that evening.

22 Q. The next day did you return to the scene?

23 A. We tried to go up in the morning but then the soldiers were back

24 again so we had to negotiate our movement, our freedom of movement again.

25 Then around midday we were allowed to go back to the scene.

Page 642

1 Q. And is that when you actually conducted the investigation that

2 you've been describing for the last few minutes?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. As an air force officer, you, I take it, are familiar with bombs

5 dropped from aeroplanes.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. This contraption that you saw on the 7th of April, 1995, what sort

8 of guidance system did it have?

9 A. It was no guidance. It was launched in another direction.

10 Q. What determined --

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just and minute.

12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me, Mr. Witness. And I apologise,

13 counsel. We perhaps should settle the ways in which we do this. But you

14 were speaking just a while ago, Mr. Witness, about the fact that you were

15 held back in your accommodation for some hours, I understand, by three

16 soldiers. What was the purpose of restricting your access to the scene?

17 THE WITNESS: We never got a good answer on that. It was the

18 commander of the brigade in that area that wanted us inside. I think he

19 wanted to have people from Sarajevo into the area first, and so we did not

20 disturb their investigation, I think, expert -- bomb experts and so on.

21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.


23 Q. Following up on His Honour's question, Major, when you're doing an

24 investigation, is it important that people not go into a scene and disturb

25 things before an investigation is done?

Page 643

1 A. Yes, for sure. Then you can -- they can turn bits and pieces. So

2 it seems for us that it comes from another direction.

3 Q. Yes. And when you say that people were coming from Sarajevo, did

4 you understand these people from Sarajevo to be experts in ballistics and

5 explosives?

6 A. Yes, we talked with them later on, and then they showed us

7 everything, all the bits and pieces, and -- they had collected everything.

8 Q. Do you understand, or is it your opinion, that it was important

9 that the scene be undisturbed until these experts arrived --

10 A. Yes, I've already said that.

11 Q. -- from Sarajevo?

12 A. So we did the investigation of that one to get -- more or less

13 altogether. We returned to that one later that day.

14 Q. All right. And had this sort of thing happened in earlier

15 investigations where you were restricted from a scene by Bosnian Muslim

16 troops?

17 A. No, no.

18 Q. This was a one-time event?

19 A. Yeah.

20 Q. Again, as an air force officer, have you had training during your

21 20-plus years in the Norwegian Air Force in what sorts of weapons are

22 appropriate for what sorts of battlefield situations?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you think of a battlefield situation in which this sort of air

25 bomb with rocket engines strapped on is an appropriate weapon?

Page 644

1 A. No, I cannot.

2 Q. And is that because it cannot be guided?

3 A. It cannot be guided or -- and you will never know where it will

4 explode, and when.

5 Q. Have you, before coming to court today, looked at photographs of

6 this incident on the 7th of April in Hrasnica?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. All right. And in your view, are those photographs accurate

9 depictions of what happened that day and what you saw when you arrived at

10 the scene?

11 A. Yes, they are.

12 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President, Your Honours, may I ask that ter

13 number 2719 be called up and displayed. This is a series of photographs,

14 Your Honour, and we have indicated with our exhibit submission the ERN

15 numbers of the specific photographs that we wish to display, and I would

16 ask that the witness, having indicated that these are true and accurate

17 photographs, that these be admitted as they are displayed.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let that be done.

19 MR. DOCHERTY: And I believe the first photograph is ERN

20 0094-5320.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you going to ask the witness to say what this

22 is?

23 MR. DOCHERTY: Well, I don't know -- could I have a moment, Your

24 Honour.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Docherty.

Page 645

1 MR. DOCHERTY: I'm just checking to see if better quality

2 photographs are available --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: The microphone.

5 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone, please.

6 MR. DOCHERTY: Sorry. If I could just have a moment or two. It

7 may take a moment or two to check, but we'll try and get some better

8 photographs, or if it's not possible, I guess we'll just move on.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty, may I ask, how is the showing of

11 these photographs essential to your case?

12 MR. DOCHERTY: It illustrates the destructive power of the weapon

13 used, Your Honour. They are pictures of utterly demolished brick houses.

14 And in light of the regrettable difficulty we're having in getting good

15 quality photographs, I will limit myself to showing -- I do have better

16 quality ones, but I would ask leave to put in a smaller number of

17 photographs and use the ELMO to display them.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. That would be a better course.


20 Q. Major, I'm not going to ask you detailed questions about these

21 photographs. I believe they speak for themselves. I'm simply going to

22 ask you to verify that this is an accurate depiction of what you saw at

23 that scene in Hrasnica on the 7th of April, 1995.

24 A. Yeah. This was the house we arrived at.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Was that one house or two houses?

Page 646

1 THE WITNESS: This is a house and the -- a kind of barn or

2 something beside it.


4 Q. The same question as this --

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic is on her feet.

6 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, could we perhaps have

7 and better photograph? Does everybody have the same picture on his on her

8 screen? Because on my screen I can't see anything at all.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, you must go to the ELMO now. This is now

10 on the ELMO. Have you pressed the ELMO button?

11 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.

12 MR. DOCHERTY: Could we have the next photograph, please.

13 Q. Major, at this point may I ask, was there damage to other houses

14 as well even if they were not destroyed?

15 A. Yes, they were. The roofs, there were holes in them after the

16 blast, and windows were gone as well. We talked about that also.

17 Q. This appears to be a close-up of the one before. And then I

18 believe the last photograph. Thank you. That concludes the review of the

19 photographs.

20 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, I'll ask that these photographs which

21 were on the -- poorer-quality copies which were on the exhibit list be

22 marked and put into evidence.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let that be done.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Is counsel asking for that group of photographs to

25 be admitted as one exhibit or individual exhibit numbers to be given to

Page 647

1 each photograph?

2 MR. DOCHERTY: Sir, they could be admitted as a single exhibit.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will become Exhibit P84.


5 Q. Major, did you ever see these air bombs before firing on the

6 Bosnian Muslim side of the confrontation lines?

7 A. No, we did not.

8 Q. Did you ever see launchers for such devices on the Bosnian Muslim

9 side of the confrontation lines?

10 A. [No audible answer].

11 Q. And lastly was there --

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: What was the answer to that question? Did you

13 ever see launchers for such devices on the Bosnian Muslim side of the

14 confrontation lines?

15 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I did not.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please answer orally, not just by nodding.


18 Q. On the map that was in evidence a little while ago, Major, there

19 was a green dot with the number 6 beside it. Do you remember that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you examine that before coming to court?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Does that green dot accurately indicate the location at which this

24 occurred?

25 A. Yes.

Page 648

1 Q. And how far away is the impact of this air bomb from the two

2 military headquarters that you mentioned earlier that were in Hrasnica,

3 the company headquarters and the brigade headquarters?

4 A. Very far. It was more close to our accommodation, team location.

5 Q. And I guess the same question, then: How far from your

6 accommodation were these headquarters? Would it be measured in

7 kilometres, in metres, in what unit?

8 A. A hundred metres, I can say. To the company headquarters, it's

9 more like a kilometre or so, and 800 or 900 metres from our -- from our

10 accommodation to the battalion headquarters.

11 Q. All right. Was there -- I'm going to ask about another incident

12 now. Was there a time, to take a sniping incident as an example, of a

13 17-year-old girl being shot and killed by a sniper in Hrasnica?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you see this girl while she was still alive?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. Whereabouts was she when you saw her still alive?

18 A. She was walking in the area called Solakovici, from where they

19 started to dig a tunnel under the airport into Sarajevo, and she was

20 working towards Solakovici.

21 Q. And were you driving when you saw her?

22 A. Yes. We had passed her on the way.

23 Q. As she was walking from Solakovici to Hrasnica, which side of her,

24 her right or her left, would be towards the confrontation lines?

25 A. It would be her back side or left.

Page 649

1 Q. Back left?

2 A. Yeah.

3 Q. Later on did you investigate a sniping incident involving this

4 girl?

5 A. Yes. I was called upon by the civilian policeman to join him to

6 inspect a victim.

7 Q. And how long after you had seen her walking were you called to

8 investigate this incident?

9 A. One hour, maximum.

10 Q. Did you view her body?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And was there a gunshot wound of entrance on her body?

13 A. There was a 12.7 or something in that -- 14.6, I think they used,

14 millimetre. It was a big hole and a big outgoing. So it was bigger than

15 the 7.62 weapon that had been used.

16 Q. And whereabouts had the bullet entered her?

17 A. In her upper body, from back on the left side.

18 Q. Back left. Did you or your colleagues at Sierra Sierra 1 ever

19 file protests with Bosnian Serb military commanders regarding sniping or

20 shelling or air bombing?

21 A. No. The teams are not to do this job. It is for the UNMO

22 headquarters that was located inside Sarajevo in the PTT building. They

23 sent out this.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: May I just ask, what was the size of the entrance

25 wound and the exit?

Page 650

1 THE WITNESS: It was -- let's say the hole and the blue area

2 around there was more than 5 centimetres, but I can't remember the exact.

3 The policeman did the measurement. I was on that investigation also

4 alone, because no other can follow me. Normally we're always two UNMOs

5 together when we are doing investigations.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: That was the entrance, around 5 centimetres?


8 JUDGE ROBINSON: And the exit was?

9 THE WITNESS: It was a big hole in her. I can say, well, 10, 20

10 centimetres out.

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: And what is the diameter of a 12.7 bullet?

12 THE WITNESS: It is -- okay. I can say 3, 3 centimetres.


14 Q. Two last things, Major, and then I'll be finished. Were you aware

15 of a road that ran over Mount Igman and down into Hrasnica and on into

16 Sarajevo?

17 A. Yes. It is referred as the Blue Road, or we call it the convoy

18 road.

19 Q. What was that road used for during your time in Hrasnica?

20 A. It was all supplies to Sarajevo, Hrasnica and Sarajevo, came that

21 way, with food, with everything.

22 Q. Did civilians try and use that road?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you ever observe those civilians being fired upon?

25 A. Yes, often.

Page 651

1 Q. From your position in Hrasnica, could you tell that these were

2 civilians?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And were you able to conclude which side it was that was firing

5 upon these civilians?

6 A. Firing to the convoy road came from Ilidza area on the Serb side.

7 Q. And when you say that you were able to tell they were civilians,

8 how far away were these civilians from you when you were able to tell

9 those are civilians?

10 A. From our accommodation of our team, our team location, we were

11 situated just at the foot of Igman, so less than a kilometre, and we also

12 observed this and reported a lot of times from the OP we had in the Sierra

13 Whisky area, Whisky 1 area, Blue 3 team area, at the end of airfield on

14 the Serb side.

15 Q. Did you have any trouble telling these people were civilians?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Was there a bridge in the Butmir area that was used by civilians?

18 A. Yes. It was used by civilians, by us, by everyone going into

19 Sarajevo.

20 Q. Were you ever able to observe civilians using the Butmir bridge?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Again, from where you were, did you have any difficulty at all in

23 telling that these were civilians?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Were you able to determine what side it was that was firing upon

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1 these civilians?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Which side was it?

4 A. It came from the Serb side, from the Ilidza side.

5 Q. And then lastly, sir, during your time in Hrasnica, limiting it to

6 you, your time in Hrasnica, investigations you conducted, how many dead

7 civilians did you see as a result of sniping and shelling?

8 A. Personally I have not summarised it, but it has to be 30 --

9 between 30 and 40.

10 MR. DOCHERTY: No further questions on direct examination,

11 Mr. President.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have to inform you that it has been brought to

13 our attention that there is a severe storm affecting the area, and in fact

14 we have been advised that the staff of the Tribunal has been authorised to

15 leave in light of the serious weather conditions. The Tribunal staff are

16 permitted to leave the Tribunal so as to reach their home as soon as

17 practically possible. However, the Ministry of the Interior has issued an

18 advice recommending that people consider staying indoors. I have just

19 been informed that a message is being broadcast over the loudspeaker

20 system indicating what I have just told you.

21 In light of this, what I propose to do is to take a break of 20

22 minutes, and when we resume, I'll tell you what the Chamber's decision is

23 as to whether we'll continue or not. So we will adjourn for 20 minutes.

24 --- Recess taken at 5.01 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 5.13 p.m.

Page 653

1 THE REGISTRAR: I just want to make the announcement on the

2 microphone so everyone can hear: We are standing down and we will resume

3 tomorrow morning at 9.30.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.14 p.m.,

5 to be reconvened on Friday, the 19th day

6 of January, 2007, at 9.30 a.m.