Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2778

1 Tuesday, 27 February 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have a number of matters to deal with before

6 the next witness is called.

7 The first one relates to protective measures for Witness W-50.

8 The Prosecution had requested a pseudonym, image and voice distortion for

9 this witness. On the 7th of February, the Trial Chamber delayed its

10 decision on the request and required the Prosecution to provide further

11 and more recent information on the witness's circumstances and the reasons

12 for requesting protective measures. We have not yet received this

13 information and the witness is scheduled to testify this afternoon. The

14 Prosecution should, therefore, provide the Chamber with the information.

15 The next matter relates to a confidential motion for admission

16 into evidence of written statements pursuant to 92 ter. This is an

17 application for four witnesses. The Defence responded on the 19th of

18 February, objecting to the admission of the statements under what it

19 described as the time conditions proposed by the Prosecution, stating that

20 it defers to the decision of the Chamber and applies for the allocation of

21 reasonable time-limits for cross-examination of these witnesses.

22 The Chamber will allocate reasonable time for cross-examination

23 based on the factors identified in its oral ruling of the 14th of

24 February. The Chamber therefore grants the Prosecution's motion and

25 admits the statements of Witnesses W-38, W-57, W-91 and W-116. We'll

Page 2779

1 decide on the time for cross-examination when the witnesses are scheduled

2 to appear.

3 The parties will recall that I have, time and again, raised the

4 question of certain witnesses being called by the Trial Chamber. This is

5 because the Chamber takes the view that these witnesses are needed to

6 attend at the trial in the interests of the administration of justice.

7 However, before the Chamber issues a summons for these witnesses to

8 appear, the Chamber considers it appropriate to invite the Prosecution to

9 call these witnesses.

10 Accordingly, Mr. Whiting, the Chamber invites the Prosecution to

11 call Captain Hansen as well as the unidentified officer of the UNMO who

12 heard and saw the projectile in flight from a particular direction.

13 Mr. Whiting, the Chamber will expect to be kept abreast of the progress

14 being made in this matter on a weekly basis, and we'd like to have the

15 first report by Monday of next week.

16 I must -- yes, Mr. Whiting.

17 MR. WHITING: That's fine, Your Honour. I can report right now

18 that we have been endeavouring to identify the unidentified UNMO officer.

19 We're working on that. We have been working on that quite diligently.

20 Hopefully by next Monday I will have more specific information to report

21 on that effort.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: I would not want this matter to be stretched over

23 time. I would want this witness to be here as soon as possible, the

24 reason being that I take the view that it is better to hear this witness

25 when the issues are live and fresh in the minds of everyone in the court.

Page 2780

1 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, we have the same view. We've been

2 working on it as diligently as we can. It's been a little bit difficult

3 and I cannot guarantee that we will ultimately be able to identify that

4 person. So far we've been unsuccessful. The most obvious way of

5 identifying that person has not been successful, that is, asking the

6 person who spoke with him and reported about the conversation. He does

7 not remember, but we're working on it to see if we can identify him. But

8 we will try to make this happen as quickly as possible.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: You can get Captain Hansen.

10 MR. WHITING: Sure.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, then, get Captain Hansen, because you don't

12 have to bring the two of them at the same time.

13 MR. WHITING: Okay. Well, if that's fine with you, we can make

14 that arrangement. It's not our view that he has significantly more to

15 contribute than has been already presented to the Trial Chamber, but now

16 that the Trial Chamber has invited us to bring him, I think we will

17 probably do that.


19 You'll recall that at one of the sittings last week there was a

20 divergence of opinion in the translation of a particular passage, and I

21 instructed the registrar to have the CLSS review the translation and

22 provide with us a translation. I have received the translation and I'll

23 read it to the parties.

24 This comes from Christina Zoric, Chief, CLSS. They referred to

25 the B/C/S original, which I will not read or, more accurately, I cannot

Page 2781

1 read, and the English translation they say should read: "The bullet

2 passed through the child's head and then seriously wounded his mother in

3 the stomach."

4 At the time when I requested the court deputy to have this

5 translation done by the CLSS, I also indicated that I would allow the

6 parties to make any short submissions that they might have arising from

7 the translation received from the CLSS. Accordingly, I do so now.

8 So I ask, first -- well, I ask first the Prosecutor whether he has

9 any submissions, or if you wish, you could consider the matter and come

10 back to the Chamber on this.

11 MR. WHITING: If Your Honour wouldn't mind if we could consider

12 the matter. I have a feeling we won't have any further submissions. I

13 believe the document is in evidence, so I don't think that there is much

14 to comment on. But if I could just have a check, I would appreciate it,

15 and come back tomorrow on that.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, do you have any submissions to

18 make on this, or would you rather wait until tomorrow?

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would prefer to

20 wait until tomorrow, given the submission that we have submitted to you

21 relating to a medical document which, after we'd had discussion about it,

22 was submitted to the Court. This document was put together much later,

23 after the witness testified. For that reason, I would reserve my giving

24 of any opinion until tomorrow.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Tapuskovic.

Page 2782

1 The next matter relates to the notification issued by the Trial

2 Chamber on time allocation for the witnesses for this week. I believe the

3 parties should be in possession of this communication.

4 I turn next now to the matter which should be discussed in private

5 session.

6 [Private session]

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Page 2783











11 Pages 2783-2790 redacted. Private session.















Page 2791

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18 [Open session]

19 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

24 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


Page 2792

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

3 And you may begin, Mr. Sachdeva.

4 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 Examination by Mr. Sachdeva:

6 Q. Good afternoon to you, sir.

7 A. Good afternoon to you, too.

8 Q. Would you please state your full name, your place and date of

9 birth for the Trial Chamber.

10 A. Fikret Mujezinovic; 10th of October, 1945; Sarajevo.

11 Q. Thank you. Now, I just want to inform you that I am going to be

12 asking you questions for about half an hour, so I'm going to try and be as

13 succinct and brief as possible. I'm going to start by asking you

14 questions about your background.

15 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, Your Honours, may I lead the witness

16 through this?


18 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you.

19 Q. Mr. Mujezinovic, is it correct that you presently live in

20 Livanjska Street, in Sarajevo?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. Did you live there during the war?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. During the war, is it correct that you were a cook for the Red

25 Cross?

Page 2793

1 A. Correct. I have photographs, too.

2 Q. During the war as well, is it true that you were a member of the

3 veterans union? Is that right?

4 A. I was not a member of the veterans union; however, it was on their

5 behalf that I distributed parcels to the families of those wounded and

6 killed from the Kosevo Brdo territory.

7 Q. Thank you for that clarification. And prior to the war you were

8 an electrician and then you retired; is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now I'm going to ask you some questions about an incident that

11 took place in Livanjska Street. But before I get there, I just want to

12 ask some general questions about the area in which you lived.

13 In Livanjska Street, in the area of Livanjska Street, during the

14 war, were there any military facilities present?

15 A. There was the military kitchen. That was further down the

16 street. Now it's called Antuna Hangija and before it used to be called

17 Mitra Trifunovica.

18 Q. If you can very briefly describe to the Trial Chamber, what was

19 the function of this military kitchen?

20 A. That's where meals were prepared for the soldiers who were

21 deployed along the front lines surrounding Sarajevo. It would normally

22 shut at 5.00 and open again at 1700 hours. Meals were prepared so that in

23 the evening hours, between 2000 hours and 2400 hours, or by 5.00 in the

24 morning when there was nobody out in the streets, meals could be

25 distributed to the soldiers at the front lines. All the staff working

Page 2794

1 there were wearing civilian clothes, and no one wearing a uniform was

2 allowed anywhere near the kitchen, even those soldiers who would sometimes

3 come back from the front line.

4 Q. So can I just confirm from your answer there that the food, once

5 it was made, was taken to the front lines, to the soldiers there, as

6 opposed to the soldiers coming to the kitchen to eat in the kitchen?

7 A. It was brought to the soldiers who were at the front line.

8 Q. Very well. Thank you. In addition to this -- well, apart from

9 this military kitchen that we spoke about, were there any other military

10 facilities in Livanjska Street during the period 1994/1995?

11 A. No. There was the Red Cross kitchen at Livanjska Street. This

12 kitchen was at Antuna Hangija Street and the school building was there.

13 And down at the beginning of Livanjska Street, there was the police

14 station. So those would be all the important facilities that were there.

15 Q. During your -- well, during 1994/1995, did you ever see a heavy

16 weapon or a mortar being used by the Bosnian government forces at

17 Livanjska Street?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Okay. Now I want to move to an incident on the 8th of November,

20 1994.

21 Firstly, if you could answer me, do you recall an incident taking

22 place on that date?

23 A. Of course I do. I'll remember that for as long as I live.

24 Q. Are you able to tell the Court roughly what time this incident

25 occurred on the 8th of November, 1994?

Page 2795

1 A. My apologies. I will try to make this answer a little more

2 comprehensive.

3 That day at the Red Cross kitchen, which was where I worked, I had

4 this office, the veterans association office, where they brought me

5 parcels to distribute to the families of those wounded and killed. That

6 day, at about 1500 hours, give or take a minute or two, a girl called

7 Lejla Hodzic came over and said that her father had been killed, to see

8 whether she could have the parcel. We weren't supposed to distribute

9 those parcels during day-time because they could see us from the road over

10 there. I told her that the parcels would be distributed after 6.00 and

11 that she should drop by later. She went to see a lady over some books,

12 because she had left school early because of the parcels. She went back

13 to street number 26. The distance from the office was about 25 or 30

14 metres.

15 I was just shuffling papers and then I heard this shell whizz by.

16 It hit our building and I heard the impact. I had this knee-jerk

17 reaction. I threw myself down on the floor and was waiting to see what

18 would happen, because I realised that it had impacted very nearby. And

19 then I jumped back up to my feet. I opened the door. I realised there

20 was a lot of dust all around and shrapnel, shrapnel falling all over the

21 ground.

22 I dashed to the place where the shell exploded. It wasn't that

23 far away. I saw this girl named Dino Blekic. She was squatting down, her

24 arms raised. There was this cafe there at a distance of 2 metres with a

25 passage that was leading to the building in which she lived. There's an

Page 2796

1 intersection there, two cafes; one is called Dolar and the other, Maks.

2 Some children were going close to Dolar and some other children, close to

3 Maks. Between the buildings I ran there as fast as I could. Dina was

4 holding her stomach as she lay down. Those other people who were closer

5 to me, they were leaving Dolar and Maks; Djoko Miljkovic, Zdenko

6 Jovanovic, Ragib Besic, Fikret Cerkez, and some other people whose names I

7 can't remember. I saw them put him in a car, Dino, I mean. They put him

8 in a car and I arrived just as they did. I knew that he was wounded, but

9 I didn't know what would become of him.

10 As I was approaching, to my right --

11 Q. Mr. Mujezinovic, I'm loathe to interpret you. I just want --

12 you've given a very long answer and I want to ask you a few specific

13 questions about your answer and then we can continue to what you did at

14 that time.

15 Can I just ask you, you spoke about this girl Lejla who came to

16 ask for packages. Do you recall roughly how old she was when you saw her

17 that day?

18 A. Twelve, 13, 14. I wasn't really thinking about that. I know she

19 was a lovely girl and she lived in this building where my daughter played

20 with --

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. You have answered the question. You

22 said she was 12, 13, or 14.

23 Yes, Mr. Sachdeva.

24 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.

25 Q. And you also said in your answer, you say, this shell whizz by.

Page 2797

1 Can you very briefly describe to the Court what you heard.

2 A. It was like this: "Sssss, boom." A second was all it took. It

3 just whizzed past and then it impacted. I knew it was close by because

4 that wasn't the first one. Thousands have landed before. This whistle of

5 a shell went whizzing past, and the impact. I heard a scream. I threw

6 myself down on the floor. I didn't know where exactly it had landed and I

7 thought the shrapnel might catch me, too, because before it hit a building

8 in which I lived, near my room, which is just across the way from where I

9 was.

10 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, may I, for the record, describe the

11 sound the witness made as a semi-whistle, I submit, just for the record.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm not sure about that.

13 Would you agree with that, Ms. Isailovic, that the sound was that

14 of a semi-whistle?

15 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Not at all, because I heard in the

16 witness's language it was a one-second whistle.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva, I suggest you continue.

18 MR. SACHDEVA: I'll move on.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't know if anything will turn on this.


21 Q. Mr. Mujezinovic, after the first shell landed, did you assist

22 anybody who was injured from that shell?

23 A. Let me tell you, Dino Blekic was put in a car. I ran over and

24 then Adis Tinjak was also put in another car, and the car drove off. Only

25 the little girl, Lejla Hodzic, was still there. And then Marin ran down

Page 2798

1 the street and then the police caught him. He was wounded outside the

2 entrance to that building. And my duty was to look after Lejla. I walked

3 up to her. I lifted her up to put her in the car. I just lifted her up.

4 I felt something warm under my fingers - I can still remember the feeling

5 - and it was this little girl's brains. When we put her in the trunk of

6 the car, I just zipped my jacket up. I put the remains of her brains in

7 my jacket, and she was dead on the spot.

8 Q. It's okay, Mr. --

9 A. Several minutes later, this lady that was taken out of an entrance

10 at number 26, Ramiza, who was the owner of a burek shop, she told us that

11 a lady was lying in the hall, a girl from that same building, wounded.

12 Fikret Besic's daughters came in and they brought this lady out. Outside

13 the entrance to her building there is a stone bench there. They laid her

14 down on the bench. You couldn't really tell that she was wounded or

15 anything, so we thought she was just fear-stricken and, as a result, that

16 she had lost consciousness.

17 I asked Ramiza to massage her breast a little, since she was a

18 lady, too, and they fetched a glass of water from this cafe Maks. I

19 walked up to her to try and open he mouth. I realised that her jaw was

20 clenched tightly together and that the area around her mouth was turning

21 blue. It was then that I realised that -- we stopped a man named Dzevad,

22 who was a taxi driver before the war, we stopped his car and took her to

23 the hospital.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Mujezinovic.

25 I think you should elicit the evidence bit by bit, Mr. Sachdeva.

Page 2799

1 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes, Mr. President.

2 Q. Mr. Mujezinovic, it's okay if you want to take a sip of water or

3 take a break.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would you like a short break to compose yourself,

5 Mr. Mujezinovic.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, thank you. I'm composed. I

7 have gotten over the worst of it.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much.

9 Proceed.


11 Q. You said that the taxi driver took the lady to the hospital. Did

12 you find out whether she survived this incident?

13 A. No, she succumbed. Nena Deljanin, she succumbed. The doctors

14 told her husband, who also worked at the hospital - he was an X-ray

15 technician - they told him that this small piece of shrapnel had

16 penetrated too far, and even if the doctors were right there, they

17 couldn't have saved her. She left behind her son who was at the time

18 perhaps 10 or 12 months old.

19 Q. Now, after this incident, this shell, did anything else happen on

20 that day?

21 A. Fifteen or 20 minutes later, this, what should I call it, arrived,

22 the police in civilian clothes, led by Dragan Miokovic. The team came and

23 they started taking photographs at the scene. They stopped us who had

24 witnessed the incident; they took our names down. In the meantime, the

25 French Battalion men had arrived. They tried to get the shell out of the

Page 2800

1 ground. However, Dragan Miokovic, the inspector, did not allow them to do

2 that before an on-site investigation took place. Their guide was a man

3 named Miso who always smoked a pipe. He was their interpreter. They said

4 that he would be there in 15 or 20 minutes. Since the police station was

5 nearby, the place where it hit --

6 Q. Mr. Mujezinovic --

7 A. -- was secured by the police.

8 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you, and perhaps it was my fault for asking

9 an open-ended question. But apart from this shell that we have spoken

10 about, did any other shells land on Livanjska Street that day, that you

11 recall?

12 A. That is precisely what I'm trying to explain. The French

13 Battalion left. These people were carrying out an on-site investigation

14 and the police were securing the scene outside the school. They told the

15 people back at the school that they should not allow any children

16 outside. People were expecting another shell being fired, and this was

17 just the time when children left school for the day. This policeman went

18 down there and made sure that no children left the school building.

19 Once the French Battalion men had left - and I'm probably losing

20 track of this in terms of the time-line - the people who were controlling

21 things, they took the measurements where the shell had come from. This

22 took about one and a half hours, maybe two. I never thought that I would

23 ever cross paths with any of those people. I didn't look at my watch.

24 So another shell landed just behind us, and we were all assembled

25 together outside the cafe that was called Dolar, waiting to see what would

Page 2801

1 happen and awaiting reports. So the other shell landed just outside the

2 entrance to the school building. Muharem Aladjuz, the policeman securing

3 the spot, was wounded, and another lady, Razija Steta, Seta, was found

4 dead near that corner, killed by a shell. And then several minutes later

5 another shell landed across the way in the front yard of a private home,

6 the distance being, I think, about 7, 8 or possibly 10 metres from the

7 other one.

8 So three shells landed within those two or three hours, and don't

9 hold me to it. The time-line is difficult.

10 Q. Are you able to say roughly how far the second shell was from the

11 first shell when it landed?

12 A. Between the second and the third or between the first and the

13 second?

14 Q. Right, between the first and the second.

15 A. Between the first and the second, the first landed by the gate to

16 the Dolar cafe, between Maks and Dolar cafes; the second one landed on the

17 concrete surface, some 30, 40 metres away, I don't know. And the distance

18 between the second and the third was 7 or 8 metres, as wide as the road

19 was.

20 Q. I'm going to show you a photograph now and I'm going to ask you a

21 few questions about the photographs.

22 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. Court Deputy, could we bring up 65 ter 2975.

23 Q. Mr. Mujezinovic, you should see a photograph on your screen

24 shortly. Do you see a photograph on the screen there?

25 A. Yes, I do. I see it.

Page 2802

1 Q. What is that a photograph of, if you can remember?

2 A. That's the Maks cafe. That's the Dolar cafe. The shell landed

3 here --

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. -- and this is the entrance to number 26, and here's this concrete

6 bench where Nena was lying before she was taken to hospital.

7 Q. Okay, Mr. Mujezinovic, now you're going to have a marker pen, and

8 I want you to listen very carefully to my questions and then I'm going to

9 ask you to mark certain locations. So let's just try and do this one by

10 one, just so that it's recorded properly.

11 If you could first mark the cafe, the Dolar cafe, please, with a

12 D, with the letter D.

13 A. It's here.

14 Q. Please also mark the Maks cafe with the letter M.

15 A. [Marks].

16 Q. Could you please also mark number 26 Livanjska Street with the

17 letters -- with the figures 26.

18 A. [Marks].

19 Q. In that photograph, do you see the place where you assisted the

20 little girl, Lejla?

21 A. Here.

22 Q. Could you please put the letter L underneath that.

23 A. [Marks].

24 Q. You also spoke about a lady that was injured and had to have a

25 massage. Can you point out where that lady was assisted as well, if it's

Page 2803

1 in the photograph.

2 A. Here, on this bench, stone bench.

3 Q. And her name was Deljanin; is that correct?

4 A. Deljanin. First name Nena. I mean everybody called her Nena. I

5 don't know what her real first name was, but her last name was Deljanin.

6 Q. Okay. If you could put the letter N where you have marked that,

7 please, just so it's clear.

8 A. [Marks].

9 Q. And lastly, are you able to see where the shell landed on that

10 photograph, the first shell?

11 A. I have a problem with this car. Probably it's a little bit down

12 the street, under this tree. Every year, on the anniversary of this

13 incident, the owner of the Dolar cafe puts flowers here at this spot.

14 Q. So could you put the letter S by the tree, then, please.

15 A. [Marks].

16 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I tender that into evidence.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.

18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P283, Your Honours.


20 Q. Mr. Mujezinovic, now I just want to show you one last document.

21 MR. SACHDEVA: Could 65 ter 00084K be brought up, please.

22 Q. Mr. Mujezinovic, do you see a document in your language on the

23 right-hand side of your screen?

24 A. I do.

25 Q. And do you see that on the top left-hand side corner it is -- it

Page 2804

1 says that it's from the Ministry of the Interior, the security services

2 centre, Sarajevo. Do you see that there?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And does it appear to you to be a report in relation to the

5 incident that you have just described to the Court?

6 A. Yes, it does.

7 Q. Now, I want you to look down the end of the first page.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And I want you to -- I want you to tell the Court whether you see

10 a reference there to the girl, Lejla, that you assisted that afternoon on

11 the 8th of November, 1994.

12 A. No, I don't. Dino Blekic was killed. Nevsija "Nena" Deljanin was

13 killed. Cehajic was wounded, escaped, but then was caught. And the

14 others I didn't see on ...

15 Q. Okay. Where you say you've seen Dino Blekic -- you see where you

16 see Dino Blekic? There's a paragraph just above that name. Do you see in

17 that paragraph a reference to Lejla?

18 A. Yes, yes. Yes, I see now. Yes, I do.

19 Q. And what is the surname of this lady, Lejla.

20 A. Lejla Hodzic, living on Muhameda Dzudza 56. As far as I know,

21 this is not correct, because my daughter, my son-in-law and my

22 grandchildren lived in the same building as she did.

23 Q. Very well. Thank you for that clarification.

24 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I tender this document into

25 evidence.

Page 2805


2 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P284, Your Honours.


4 Q. And --

5 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Prosecutor, do you wish to move on

6 to another document afterwards? Have you finished with this document?

7 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes. Yes, Your Honour, I have.

8 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well. In that case, I don't

9 know if you plan to ask the question I'm about to put. In this document,

10 on the second paragraph, "Official Report," second paragraph, it is

11 written here that the shell was fired from the aggressor's positions. The

12 question I wanted to ask or put to the witness is the following:

13 Witness, can you tell us which direction the shell came from, if

14 you are able to?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know this position very well. It

16 came from the direction of Orlovac. For many years I was the caretaker of

17 the hunter's lodge there and I passed through that area very often. And

18 later it was established by the investigators, I believe, who did the

19 measurements.

20 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] This shell fell in your street,

21 didn't it? Was your house far removed or fairly close to the "aggressor's

22 positions"?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Dolar cafe was on number 15.

24 The kitchen where I was working was between 11 and 13, and the entrance to

25 my building was right across; it was on number 12. So the distance

Page 2806

1 between my building and the place where the shell landed was about 10 or

2 12 metres. This shell could not cause any damage because it fell behind

3 my building.

4 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Was your building quite a long ways

5 away from the confrontation line?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, about -- I don't know which

7 positions you're referring -- whose positions you're referring to.

8 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] In the paragraph I read "the

9 aggressor's positions." Perhaps you could tell us something about this.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are other buildings in front

11 of my building that have a direct view of the road that was constructed

12 immediately before the war. It was constructed by the army. It was a

13 detour leading to Vogosca and it was a ring around Sarajevo. So some 700

14 metres, as the crow flies, is my rough estimate. Don't take my word for

15 it, but I don't think it's more than 700 metres. So this is the street

16 that was connecting Vresa Bolivar [phoen], I don't know, Vogosca down

17 there, and it ran around to Pale and onward.

18 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. This is my

19 last question, Witness: Your house, was it close to ABiH positions, the

20 army, the ABiH army?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bosnia-Herzegovina, let me tell you

22 something -- well, the line where the BH army was was about 2 kilometres,

23 and that is where the food was being taken to. So approximately 2

24 kilometres. I didn't measure it myself, but not more than 2 or 2.5

25 kilometres.

Page 2807

1 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: How much longer will you be?

3 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, that's the examination-in-chief.

4 Thank you, Mr. Mujezinovic.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Sachdeva.

6 Ms. Isailovic.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

8 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Cross-examination by Ms. Isailovic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness. My name is Branislava

11 Isailovic. I'm a lawyer attorney-at-law and I work for the Paris Bar

12 Association. I defend Dragomir Milosevic. And I'm about to ask you a few

13 questions which are related to what you have said today before the Trial

14 Chamber. But I would also like to talk about what you have said on

15 several occasions when you had interviews with the OTP.

16 First of all, I'd like to ask you this question: You made several

17 statements which I gave to the Office of the Prosecutor, I believe.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you remember the statement you made on the 20th of November,

20 1995?

21 A. Yeah, probably.

22 Q. Do you remember an interview you had with the OTP on the 11th of

23 November, 2002?

24 A. I probably do remember.

25 Q. Do you remember the interview you had on the 27th of April, 2006?

Page 2808

1 This was last year.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And after having come to The Hague on the 20th of February, you

4 discussed --

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.

6 MR. SACHDEVA: I'm sorry, Mr. President. I just want to confirm.

7 Counsel has spoken about an interview on the 11th of November, 2002. It

8 is my understanding that it was the 11th of December, just for clarity.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Yes, we have seen it. It's the 11th

10 of December.

11 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. Yes, that's right.

12 Q. After having come -- you came to The Hague and discussed matters

13 with the Prosecutor on the 20th of February, 2007. Today you discussed

14 the incident that took place on the 8th of November, 1994, and I will ask

15 you a series of questions rather quickly. If you are able to answer the

16 question, that's fine; otherwise, you can just say that you don't know.

17 Did you hear an explosion, i.e., at 25 minutes past 3.00,

18 something like a blow or a blast; yes or no?

19 A. Yes, I heard it, but it didn't last a second. A second is a short

20 period of time. Let me explain to you, it was like, "Sssss, boom," and it

21 lasts longer than a second.

22 Q. How many seconds?

23 A. It's ridiculous. I didn't measure seconds. I'm going to repeat

24 it and you measure it yourself. I don't have time to do that and I'm not

25 able to do that.

Page 2809

1 Q. After that, around a quarter past 4.00 p.m., Policeman Miokovic

2 came to that spot; is that right?

3 A. Probably. I didn't look at my watch. I only remember the time

4 when Lejla came to my office. It was around 3.00.

5 Q. They came half an hour, 45 minutes, after the explosion; is that

6 right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. After that, and you said a while ago, that the FreBat soldiers

9 came to that location; do you remember that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. But before the arrival of FreBat, did you see any other UNPROFOR

12 soldiers?

13 A. No.

14 Q. The FreBat soldiers left instantly; is that right?

15 A. Yes. They came in a vehicle that we dubbed "frog." They wanted

16 to dig out the shell. Investigator Miokovic didn't allow them to do so,

17 and they said that they would be back after 20 minutes and then they left.

18 Q. Witness, did you stay all that time with the policeman? I'm

19 thinking of Mr. Miokovic.

20 A. Yes.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: "The" policeman.

22 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. And around half past 5.00, the police had finished with the

24 investigation it was conducting at that location.

25 A. Approximately.

Page 2810

1 Q. And you said a few minutes ago that you were still there together

2 with Mr. Miokovic and his team, if I understood you correctly, when the

3 second shell fell approximately 30 to 40 metres away from the place the

4 first shell had fallen; is that right?

5 A. Yes, Miokovic was there, and the rest, they were waiting for the

6 UNPROFOR to come, to extract the shell and take the measurements.

7 Q. At half past 5.00, was it still light?

8 A. It was dusk. It was not completely dark.

9 Q. That same evening, did you watch the news that talked about this

10 event?

11 A. No, because we didn't have electricity.

12 Q. So you live in Livanjska Street. Do you remember that on the next

13 day Mr. Miokovic went, together with his team, to that spot?

14 A. I didn't see him the following day. He may have come, but I don't

15 know about the next day. I didn't see him.

16 Q. Witness, when did you get to know about the findings of the

17 investigation conducted by Mr. Miokovic?

18 A. I didn't know anything about the investigation. A couple of days

19 later, I was called to come to the former MUP of the republic. There was

20 a young girl with long blonde hair and she was the first one to whom I

21 gave a statement, and that is when I learned. After I'd given my

22 statement, she told me that they had everything provided by the police who

23 visited the scene.

24 Q. If I've understood you correctly, on the 10th of November, 1994,

25 you reported this to the police in Sarajevo; is that correct? Was it then

Page 2811

1 that you discovered what the findings of the investigation conducted by

2 the police were?

3 A. Nobody notified me. The police were doing their job. They just

4 asked me about my experience and about the knowledge that I had.

5 Q. Witness, a few moments ago you said that this long-haired girl had

6 told you something about the findings of the investigation.

7 A. No. The only thing that she told me was that an investigation had

8 been carried out by Miokovic, Dragan Miokovic, the investigator. But she

9 didn't impart any details on me, and it wasn't my place to ask anything

10 about it.

11 Q. Witness, in your statement dated the 27th of April, 2006 --?

12 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Now is perhaps the time to display

13 it on the screen. This is document DD00-0934.

14 Q. Witness, do you recognise the cover page of your witness

15 statement -- of your statement?

16 A. Probably.

17 Q. To the left-hand side of the screen, do you see your signature

18 there?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So can I therefore conclude that this is your statement?

21 A. Yes.

22 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's move on to page 3 now.

23 Q. Are you able to read it? I don't know if it's legible for you

24 because the character font is quite small. Are you able to read this?

25 A. It's all right.

Page 2812

1 Q. Yes. We have two paragraphs that are numbered 13, so we have --

2 let's take the first paragraph 13, where you say: "Later on in the

3 investigation by Dragan Miokovic and other UNPROFOR officials, it was

4 confirmed that the shells originated from Orlovac."

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Witness, I'll put the question to you again. When did you

7 discover the findings of this investigation?

8 A. That same day. It was ascertained that the shell had come from

9 Orlovac. All of us who were natives of the area knew exactly where

10 Orlovac was, where Poljine was, where Barice was, where Mrkovici was. We

11 were natives of the area. We knew that sort of thing. We also saw the

12 way the shell hit the ground and it could have only come from there.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll take the break now.

14 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 4.08 p.m.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Isailovic.

17 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Witness, let us resume where we stopped, that is, paragraph 13 of

19 your statement. You've already answered that question, but I would like

20 to know when you heard about the results of the investigation conducted by


22 A. The same night. They were all there together. The interpreters

23 were there. They discussed with the investigators, with Miokovic and

24 those other people, and they must have agreed this because we were all

25 there, all together, 15 or 20 of us.

Page 2813

1 Q. We'll come back to your statement at a later stage, but I would

2 like to talk about another document, which is the 65 ter document number

3 81.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is that the document on the screen?

5 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] It is going to show and I would

6 like to talk about the first page.

7 Q. Witness, we also have the translation of that document, but for

8 the record, it is a technical report by Lieutenant-Colonel Lechevallier,

9 Lieutenant-Colonel Reneric, and the UNMO team at an incident at Livanjska

10 Street on the 8th of November, 1994.

11 Witness, we have this document in front of us, and on page 3 you

12 can see that UNPROFOR have come to the conclusion that it was most likely

13 that the shell was coming from the territory under the control of the

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina army. Can you see that on the screen?

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Sachdeva has a point.

16 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, yes, indeed.

17 Of course, there is no issue with respect to this document at this

18 stage; however, I think it should be made clear that this document refers

19 to the shelling that took place at, as it says on the front page, 1725

20 hours in the afternoon. In other words, it does not pertain to -- I mean,

21 the witness has given evidence of three shells, the first one at sometime

22 around 3.00 or thereafter in the afternoon. So it should be made clear to

23 the witness that this relates to the shelling at 1725 hours on that day.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: What are the other times that his evidence

25 pointed to for the other shells?

Page 2814

1 MR. SACHDEVA: The other shells were -- the evidence, as I

2 understand it, were sometime after the first shell that landed at 3.00 or

3 3.30 in the afternoon.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well.

5 Witness, you are being asked to bear in mind that this report

6 relates to a shelling that took place at 1725 hours, that is, 5.25.

7 Yes, Ms. Isailovic.

8 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm going to use

9 other documents which bear on the first incident, which pertain to the

10 first incident.

11 Q. But for the time being, Witness, what is your comment on this? Is

12 it likely?

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, what is the question? Are you asking him

14 what are his comments on the conclusion that it was most likely that the

15 shell came from territory under the control of the BH army? Is that what

16 you're asking him?

17 Okay. Yes. What is your answer to that?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You probably don't know the area. A

19 street is like this and a shell came from here and the BH army were to the

20 left. If the shell had arrived from BH army positions, it would have hit

21 the ground like this and not like this. This way there was the army of

22 Republika Srpska firing, and on this side there was the BH army. Had the

23 army been fired at by the federation army, it would have come in like

24 this. Since it had arrived from the Republika Srpska ranks, it came like

25 this.

Page 2815

1 When I close my eyes, I see in my mind's eye every second of it.

2 I could perhaps go as far as to describe individual bits of shrapnel to

3 you, if you want me to.

4 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] First of all, Your Honour, I would

5 like to tender this technical report into evidence.


7 THE REGISTRAR: As D84, Your Honours.

8 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. I asked you a question earlier but I would like to ask it again.

10 The day after, you met Mr. Dragan Miokovic on the scene, that is, the 9th

11 of November. You did see him, didn't you?

12 A. As I said, no.

13 Q. Witness, you were at home in your office the day after, were you

14 not?

15 A. Well, listen, was I at home, was I in the office? I don't

16 remember the next day. I came to the office at about 10.00, perhaps half

17 past 10.00, when Nena Deljanin's husband arrived, crying, holding a small

18 baby in his arms no more than 10 months old, to tell me that his wife had

19 died the previous night.

20 Q. Witness, do you remember having seen on the scene the day after

21 UNPROFOR soldiers or vehicles?

22 A. It wasn't just that day. They came again to that particular place

23 three or four days later.

24 Q. So have I understood that you can confirm the presence of UNPROFOR

25 forces on the scene the day after the incident?

Page 2816

1 A. Yes, and they came later, too. They came every day. They even

2 brought food that they distributed to children; eggs, soup, that sort of

3 thing.

4 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to show to the

5 Chamber the 65 ter document number 63, and I would like page 5 to be

6 shown. In the English version, it's page 2.

7 Q. Witness, earlier on, the Prosecutor showed you a similar report.

8 This is a report on incidents which took place in your street, Livanjska

9 Street, on the 8th of November, and as you can read here, this is on

10 incidents which took place slightly later, which you referred to as well.

11 And you can see as well that it is Mr. Miokovic who conducted the

12 investigation. Can you see that? Can you confirm that you can see that?

13 A. Yes.

14 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] If we could look at page number 6

15 for the B/C/S version and page 3 for the English version.

16 Q. Witness, in the English version, it is the final paragraph.

17 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] The final paragraph. Could you

18 please zoom, yes. It goes on to the next page as well. It's the final

19 paragraph for the B/C/S version, the very last paragraph.

20 Q. Witness, you can see that UNPROFOR went to the scene the day after

21 to conduct investigations. Among those soldiers were Lieutenant-Colonel

22 Reneric, and he was investigating, according to the report, on the first

23 shell. Can you see that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Witness, I haven't heard your answer. Can you confirm that?

Page 2817

1 A. I see that, yes.

2 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to

3 tender into evidence this report. It is number 63. It is a 65 ter

4 document.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Could you check whether this has already been

6 tendered, Mr. Court Deputy. The Prosecutor shakes his head.

7 Well, we admit it. We admit it.

8 Would you just go back, Ms. Isailovic, and direct us to the part

9 of the report which indicated where the shells came from.

10 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am not sure I

11 understand your question. Is your question of this report?

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: This report, yes. I think just scroll --

13 scroll -- is it down?


15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: I saw a reference to the east and that's what

17 caught my attention, so I'd like to find out where the east is in relation

18 to the location and what forces were present in that direction. I think

19 it is scrolling down. Is that being done by you or by your -- yes.

20 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] No, it's not my scrolling.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's there now. It says:

22 "It was determined that the shell had been fired from the east,

23 from a direction 15 degrees due north-east, and that it was an

24 82-millimetre shell. The second shell came from the same direction and

25 was of the same calibre."

Page 2818

1 Is the witness able to tell us what, if any, forces were present

2 in that area from which this report said the shell came, that is, from the

3 east, and from a direction 15 degrees due north-east?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're showing me a different

5 report, then. It doesn't say where the shell came from. It says:

6 "When arriving for the on-site investigation of 9th November 1994,

7 members of UNPROFOR were found on the spot who were already carrying out

8 an on-site investigation where the shell had landed."

9 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's not the report we're looking at.

11 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps I can help.

12 In the report which is on our screens, in the B/C/S version I was drawing

13 the witness's attention to this paragraph he's just read. I was doing so

14 to confirm the presence of Lieutenant-Colonel Reneric the day after, the

15 report of whom is tendered into evidence.

16 Now, as regards the direction, it is another two paragraphs up the

17 page, that is, page 3 of the report in English, and you can read there --

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is it that I saw and just read? Wasn't that

19 part of the report or was that from a different document?

20 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there are two

21 reports, there are two Bosnian police reports, one of which is tendered by

22 the Prosecutor -- excuse me a moment.

23 [Defence counsel confer]

24 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] In my view, this document is

25 relevant, because in Lieutenant-Colonel Reneric's report a time is stated,

Page 2819

1 1725, and in this Bosnian police document, it is said that there were

2 another two shells and it is said that they find Lieutenant-Colonel

3 Reneric on the spot, who's conducting his investigation on the first

4 shell. So this is the reason why these are two separate incidents. But I

5 think that we will hear the author of that report and we will discuss the

6 matter with him.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Are you then preventing me from asking the

8 question, Ms. Isailovic? It seems as if that is your intent.

9 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] No, not at all.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Because I would still like to find out, to get

11 some information from the witness about that aspect of the report. If it

12 is another report, then put it in context. But it was on the screen

13 before us in court and caught my eye.

14 So can we go back to the report that I referred to.

15 Now, what is your submission on this report? Are you saying this

16 is a report of a different incident, Ms. Isailovic?

17 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes. This is the

18 incident which the witness mentioned. These were two shells that fell

19 afterwards on the same spot, or a bit further away. But what is important

20 to the Defence is that this report talks about the conditions in which the

21 investigations were conducted by UNPROFOR. These findings figure in the

22 UNPROFOR report, which is Exhibit D84. You probably remember

23 Mr. Sachdeva's submission, and he was saying that this report was not

24 related to the incident that occurred at 25 minutes past 3.00.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 2820

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Mujezinovic, you testified about three

2 incidents taking place that day, three shells. Can you tell us the time,

3 roughly, when those three shells were fired? When was the first, when was

4 the second, and when was the third?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first was at 13-something

6 hundred hours. The ones we're looking at in this report, the first one is

7 probably after 1800 hours. Somebody was looking at it; I wasn't. I

8 didn't look at my watch --

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: The first was at 1300 hours, approximately.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was after 3.00 p.m.,

11 15-something.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: You mean 1500, then?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: 1500 hours, yes. And the second one was when?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the two in the report,

16 probably. I wasn't exactly watching the time. It must have been past

17 1800 hours.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Past 1800 hours, yes. And the --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There, it's in the report. It's

20 right there.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: And the third was when?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the one that landed several

23 minutes later, after the second one. It came from the same direction,

24 same calibre, landed in the --

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: About how many minutes later; 5, 10, 15, 20?

Page 2821

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me tell you, when the third

2 shell landed, we took Muharem away, who was wounded, and then another

3 shell landed 10 minutes, 15 minutes. Muharem Aladjuz, the police officer,

4 we took him away. Then later we found the body of that lady, Seta, or

5 whatever her name was.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. So the report that I was looking at

7 and which is before us now is a report which says that:

8 "At about 6.00 on the 8th of November, opposite house number 36, a

9 shell hit the road surface killing a woman, wounding another person.

10 There was an inspection done of the site and it was determined that the

11 shell had been fired from the east, from a direction 15 degrees due

12 north-east."

13 And so the question that I was asking you was: Are you able to

14 tell us what forces, if any, would have been situated to the east of the

15 location where the shell fell, where the shell hit the road?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's over to the other side,

17 Spicaste Stijena, Vresa, Orlovac. It's like this: This is the street,

18 and then to the right, up in the hills, the forces of the Serb army.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: And are you able to say whether that area would

20 have been occupied exclusively by the forces of the Serb army or whether

21 there were other forces from the Bosnian Muslim side there as well?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not there. The BH army were to the

23 left, and they were lower down at the foot, not up in the hills. It was

24 the Serbian army who were in the hills, and the Bosnian army were at the

25 foot. They dug up trenches to keep those people up in the hills from

Page 2822

1 descending. The Bosnian army were not in the hills; they did not hold any

2 positions in the hills at the time. At the time there, the greatest

3 elevation was near Poljine. So we were looking this way. And it was more

4 of a meadow, really, than anything. But that was opposite the side being

5 shown.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

7 Yes, Ms. Isailovic.

8 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we have an

9 exhibit number, please, for this 65 ter document, which is number 63.


11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be admitted as Exhibit

12 D85.

13 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. We shall now discuss the statement you gave, your statement of the

15 27th of April, which is number DD00-0934.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] We have the statement on the

18 screen. I'm sure you remember we have -- we had two paragraphs that were

19 numbered paragraph 13. Now, if you would allow me, I'd like to turn to

20 the second paragraph number 13.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "It was later confirmed by

22 investigations done by Dragan Miokovic of the police and other UNPROFOR

23 officials that --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel, please wait for the interpretation to

25 be finished.

Page 2823

1 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Please don't read this second paragraph 13. You don't have to

3 read it aloud. Just read it to yourself.

4 A. I read it and maybe I can read it for the benefit of the Chamber.

5 Q. The Bench already has the document. They have the English version

6 of this document on their screen.

7 Witness, you mentioned this kitchen which provided for the ABiH

8 army which was close by. Can we agree that in order to fetch food the

9 military trucks needed to go to this place?

10 A. Yes, but not on Livanjska Street. It was an entrance from the

11 other side. As you can see, from the upper side of number 17, from Mitra

12 Trifunovica Uce Street, which is now called Antuna Hangija Street. So

13 that's from the upper side. It used to be a kindergarten.

14 Q. Witness, we shall look at the map on the screen a little later on

15 and you will be able to indicate it to us on the map.

16 But just one question which relates to your statement: You say

17 that the people who were working there were not wearing uniforms but were

18 wearing civilian clothes; is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Nonetheless, these people were members of the army; no?

21 A. There were no women. There was just one cook.

22 Q. The people who came to fetch the food, were they also dressed in

23 civilian clothes?

24 A. It was driven by two couriers who went in the evening in cars and

25 in civilian clothes and drove the vans with the food. Their lights were

Page 2824

1 out in order for them not to be able observed.

2 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll ask the case manager to

3 display this Sarajevo street map, which is a 65 ter document, number 2872.

4 In the meantime, I would like to tender this statement into

5 evidence, please, DD00-0934.


7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D86, Your Honours.

8 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to have the right-hand

9 side of the map enlarged, please. The right-hand side. If we could zoom

10 in a little more, please. It's that corner I'm interested in. If you

11 could enlarge it as much as possible, please. I'd like the witness to

12 mark this map, if he can be given the electronic pen, please.

13 Q. Witness, can you see your street on this map?

14 A. Can we please zoom in a little bit more.

15 Q. Zoom in a little bit more, please.

16 A. Yes, I can see it. It went the other way.

17 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we move the map to the right,

18 please. That's fine.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's perfect now.

20 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we scroll down a little. Can

21 we scroll down as far as Miljacka. No, scroll down. Down. Go down to

22 Miljacka. More. More. That's fine.

23 Q. Can you now show us where it is, please.

24 A. Yes. What are you interested in?

25 Q. Could you show us where your street is, please.

Page 2825

1 A. This is the street Brace Begic. It runs as far as Ukiceva. This

2 is where the Red Cross was, this is where I live, and this is the kitchen.

3 Q. Could you mark it with an L which stands for "Livanjska," please.

4 A. [Marks].

5 Q. Now the street is called Brace Begic, I believe, isn't it?

6 A. Yes.

7 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Could this map be marked, please.


9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D87, Your Honours.

10 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like my case manager to

11 display map number 2927; it's a 65 ter document.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Witness, do you want to say something?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do. Let me explain to you

14 this map. This is a very nice map. Let me explain where the entrance to

15 the military kitchen was, if you would allow me to do that.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: We are only interested in matters that are

18 relevant, so I'm not sure whether that is a matter in which we are

19 interested.

20 Are you interested in that, Ms. Isailovic?

21 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, not really, but we

22 can compare the transcript with the evidence we have in front of us. And

23 he did say that the kitchen and the Red Cross was located in such-and-such

24 a place, but if he so wishes, he can show us where the entrance to the

25 kitchen was and he can mark this with the letter C.

Page 2826

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Let us do so quickly.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I thank the Defence for

3 allowing me to do this.

4 This is the Brace Begic Street, already marked. This is Antuna

5 Hangija Street and this is the entrance to the army kitchen. And here,

6 where there's -- where the cross is and the letter S, that was the Red

7 Cross. So Brace Begic Street has no connection with the kitchen. And

8 this letter S here indicates a school. Thank you very much.

9 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm putting the question to the

10 court officer: Is this Exhibit 87? Can we keep that number or can't we?

11 So ...

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.

13 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I apologise. I just want to -- just

14 to be clear, the witness marked the location of the Red Cross and I see --

15 at least in my eyes it's a letter C and the transcript reads the letter

16 S. I just don't want there to be any confusion. Because just below the C

17 there's also the B/C/S letter "Sh," which looks like an S in English, but

18 I just want to be clear.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: What did you ask the witness to mark? What did

20 you ask the witness to mark, Ms. Isailovic?

21 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness wanted to indicate

22 where the entrance to the military kitchen was, which is what he did. But

23 then he added on an S to indicate where the school was. I didn't ask him

24 to do so, but he did. He added on the S to show where the school was.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. So the S stands for school?

Page 2827

1 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes, I understand that. But there is a letter C at

2 the top, and from my reading of the transcript, that relates to the Red

3 Cross kitchen and not the military kitchen. Just so there is no

4 confusion.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I'll just ask the witness: The place you

6 have marked with the letter C, what kitchen does that relate to?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The letter C indicates the Red Cross

8 kitchen. And on the upper side, from Antuna Hangija Street, I put the

9 letter V, which stands for military kitchen. And a little bit below that

10 is it a letter "Sh," or S, indicating a school. And the former Livanjska

11 Street is now called Brace Begic Street.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please proceed.

13 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now show the map on the

14 screen, please.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, 45 minutes have passed, which is

16 what was allotted to you, but I'll allow you some more time, in view of

17 the time spent by the Bench in questioning. Another 10/15 minutes.

18 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. It's

19 going to be faster than that.

20 Q. Witness, do you see this map in front of you, and do you know

21 anything about maps? That's my first question.

22 A. It's too small for me to find my way around it.

23 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I shall ask the court officer to

24 enlarge the right-hand side of the map, please, where you can read the

25 letters "105 bbr." Yes, that's fine.

Page 2828

1 Q. Witness, can you see a little better? Can you see where Miljacka

2 is, and from then on, can you see where your street stands?

3 A. It's really difficult for me to see anything here.

4 Q. Can you see Miljacka?

5 A. Yes. It's down here.

6 Q. Can you the Kosevo stadium?

7 A. I'm precisely looking for it in order to help me orientate.

8 Believe me, I cannot find my way around it.

9 Q. Never mind.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let's move on. He cannot help you with the

11 map.

12 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] So I shall finish now. I wanted

13 to ask a few questions about the map.

14 Q. So I just have one last question: Did you know where the

15 confrontation line was close to where you were?

16 A. I knew that it was somewhere in Poljine, but I didn't know the

17 exact location. I never went there. My concern was the Red Cross kitchen

18 where I had my team with whom I prepared three meals a day for everyone,

19 regardless of their religion, their ethnicity, and all the other poor

20 people in the hills. We prepared between 600, 700 meals; my team and I

21 did that, and therefore I had no time to look around and see where

22 everything was. If you wish, I can only show you --

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is it that you're desiring to show us?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To show you a photograph of my team

25 of cooks. We didn't have time --

Page 2829

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, yes, that's very nice, but let us move on.

2 Let us move on.

3 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness. I have no

4 further questions.


6 Any re-examination?

7 MR. SACHDEVA: No, Mr. President. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Mujezinovic, that concludes your evidence.

9 We thank you for giving it. You may now leave.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. You know what

11 your job is. Thank you very much for allowing me to get it off my chest,

12 what I have been suffering from, in the name of the children and all other

13 people who suffered. Thank you, and I appreciate this Honourable Court.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, might I be excused for a moment?

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, certainly.

17 Next witness, please.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 [The witness entered court]

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

22 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please sit.

Page 2830

1 And you may begin, Mr. Waespi.

2 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.

3 Examination by Mr. Waespi:

4 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.

5 A. Good afternoon.

6 Q. Are you feeling relaxed?

7 A. Pretty well.

8 Q. Thank you very much. Can you please state your name for the

9 record.

10 A. You want me to tell you my name?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. Azra Sisic.

13 Q. And where did you live in 1995?

14 A. In Dobrinja.

15 Q. And in which street?

16 A. It was called Marka Oreskovica at the time. Now it's called

17 Mustafika --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please repeat the name.


20 Q. Can you please repeat the name of the street, how it's called

21 today?

22 A. Mustafika Kamenica Street.

23 Q. I briefly want to discuss the situation of living as it was in

24 1995 in Dobrinja. Can you tell the Judges whether you had access to food

25 and perhaps to humanitarian aid.

Page 2831

1 A. Yes. Already in that year the supply of food was kind of

2 orderly. We received humanitarian aid on a regular basis, and as for

3 other events, it was horrible. There was a lot of shelling. Snipers were

4 shooting. There was a lot of killing and things like that.

5 Q. And in terms of food, where did you have to go to get it?

6 A. Well, it was organised in such a way that each floor had a duty

7 warden, or sort of, and I sometimes was assigned this duty. These persons

8 had to go 100 or 200 metres away from the building and it was a risky

9 business.

10 Q. And why was it risky?

11 A. Because of the shelling.

12 Q. How was the water situation? How were you able to get water for

13 your family?

14 A. We didn't have either water or electricity or gas. It was

15 scarcely supplied to our flats. There were pumps all over Dobrinja, and

16 most often they were targets of the shellings. And there were also one or

17 two wells in the neighbourhood, so my husband often went out during the

18 night to bring water.

19 Q. And why would he go at night to get water?

20 A. Because during the day there was sniper activity.

21 Q. One of these wells you were talking about, or pumps, was it at the

22 Simone Bolivar school in Dobrinja?

23 A. Yes, there was a pump there. The well was a little bit further

24 on. I never went to this well.

25 Q. And how far away was the Simone Bolivar school from your home?

Page 2832

1 A. It was pretty close. There was just a playground between my house

2 and the school.

3 Q. And was it -- you said earlier that it was dangerous to venture

4 outside your apartment. How was it to get from your home to the Simone

5 Bolivar school where the water station was located?

6 A. Well, we had to virtually fly across this playground. We had to

7 run because snipers were shooting in the area.

8 Q. And do you know where the snipers were shooting from?

9 A. I don't know exactly. I know that they were in Nedzarici, which

10 is a neighbourhood nearby. So I assume they were shooting from there, but

11 I can't say for sure.

12 Q. And do you know who controlled Nedzarici?

13 A. The Serb army.

14 Q. Now, in order to protect you from the sniping activities, were

15 there barriers erected near the school?

16 A. Yes. There was the C5 neighbourhood behind the school and there

17 was sniping activity along that street. Containers were set up to protect

18 people and people would just try to cross the street, running as fast as

19 they could.

20 Q. Thank you, Witness. Going back to the Simone Bolivar school, was

21 it in operation during -- in 1995? Was it -- you know, was school held

22 for children?

23 A. No. Their schools were set up in basements across town. The

24 school building itself was destroyed.

25 Q. Do you know when it was destroyed?

Page 2833

1 A. In the earlier days of the war, it was shelled and it caught

2 fire. Men from the surrounding buildings tried to put the fire out, but

3 there was so much sniping activity that it simply wasn't possible. I

4 think a man was even killed in the attempt.

5 Q. Let me, very briefly, go to your apartment. Was it safe for you

6 to stay in your apartment all the time?

7 A. No, no, not early on. Whoever had flats facing the school, for as

8 long as the Serbs were at the airport, so that was the side facing the

9 airport, that was dangerous. At the same time, the other side of my flat

10 facing the Mojmilo waterworks was risky, too. So my children slept in the

11 bathroom or in the hall, which wasn't really that safe in itself. But the

12 rooms that I had just specified were the riskiest of all.

13 Q. And you started talking about 1992. Did the situation in 1994 and

14 1995 change in that respect, in relation to safety in your apartment?

15 A. Yes. There was considerable improvement. UNPROFOR arrived at the

16 airport, so that side was now safe. And then the Serb soldiers left the

17 waterworks later on, so that side became safe, too.

18 Q. In general, in 1994, summer 1994, 1995, were there places you

19 would consider being safe in Dobrinja, or was there no such place?

20 A. It wasn't safe.

21 Q. Let me turn to the incident at the Simone Bolivar school in June

22 1995 when there was shelling. Do you remember that incident, Witness?

23 A. Quite well.

24 Q. Was there a member of your family who ventured out to get water on

25 the 18th of June, 1995?

Page 2834

1 A. It was me.

2 Q. And do you recall the weather on that day?

3 A. I think it was a lovely day.

4 Q. And why did you go to the water-pump on that day?

5 A. Well, quite simply, I heard that water would be distributed and I

6 wanted to give my husband a hand, because until that time he had been the

7 only one fetching water for us. And the school was nearby, so ...

8 Q. How did you get water? Did you have canisters?

9 A. Yes, 5-litre jerrycans. We would tie them up in pairs so we would

10 be able to carry two at a time. We would use a length of rope or

11 something like that.

12 Q. On that morning, on the 18th of June, 1995, did you have those

13 jerrycans with you when you walked from your home towards the school?

14 A. No. We had been told the previous day or two days before, I'm not

15 quite certain, that we would be getting some water. Those of us living in

16 nearby buildings left our jerrycans there, in a queue, as it were. So as

17 soon as they told us to go and fetch water, we would be right there.

18 Q. And between the time you left your jerrycan at the school and the

19 18th of June, when you actually went to get water, was there shelling?

20 A. Yes. Probably my memory is a bit blurred. But, yes, until they

21 started giving us water -- or the day before, rather.

22 Q. Was there a limit of water every person could take with him or her

23 from the water-pump back home?

24 A. As far as I remember, it was per household, 20 litres, I think,

25 I'm not sure. At first they said 40 litres, but then there were too many

Page 2835

1 of us and they wanted to get the whole thing over with. And then they

2 said they would be allowing 20 litres per household.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters's note: Could all other

4 microphones please be turned off when the witness is speaking. There is

5 too much background noise interfering with the witness's voice.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: I hope that was heard by all the parties. All

7 the microphones are to be turned off when the witness is speaking.

8 MR. WAESPI: Yes, I think it's primarily directed at me,

9 Mr. President. Thank you very much.

10 Q. Witness, were there other people waiting, like you were waiting,

11 for water on that day?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And how many people were there?

14 A. I think there were over 50 of us.

15 Q. And can you describe these persons waiting for you? Were they

16 men, women, children?

17 A. More women and children, but there were some men as well. There

18 were people there I didn't even know, I only got to know them then, some

19 people who lived in the same building as I. So they were familiar.

20 Q. Were there soldiers among these people waiting, or policemen?

21 A. No. Policemen kept telling us that we shouldn't all go in a large

22 group to that open area. They said we should go one by one.

23 Q. But on that day did you see policemen, you know, being around, or

24 were these policemen not there on that day?

25 A. We had been warned not to go on that day. I'm not sure who it

Page 2836

1 was, some civilians or something, but they told us not to go to that

2 clearing, to that open area, all together in a single group.

3 Q. Who operated the pump?

4 A. I really don't know. One thing I do know is Mr. Muharem, who was

5 wounded, too, would carry the pump back home. He was probably put in

6 charge by someone, or, rather, from civilian protection. So he would then

7 bring the pump back to that spot. And we would stand at our windows or

8 word would reach us one way or another that water would be distributed.

9 But it wasn't really that often.

10 Q. Now, was there an explosion then, on that morning, at the Simone

11 Bolivar school?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And where were you when the explosion occurred?

14 A. I was in the school building, the one that had been destroyed. I

15 was near a door and was waiting for a gentleman who had gone on before me

16 to fetch water. I was waiting for my turn to go and get water and that's

17 when he heard the explosion.

18 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, Mr. Registrar, if ter number 00119

19 could be called up, and it's been admitted, at least parts of it, as P257

20 and marked by a previous witness. But I would like to show a few

21 photographs to this witness.

22 Q. And while it's being called up, how far away from the pump were

23 you, Witness, when the explosion occurred?

24 A. The distance was smaller than the distance between me and that

25 door over there.

Page 2837

1 Q. And were you closest to the pump, or were other people between you

2 and the pump?

3 A. There were people who were in the process of fetching water, who

4 were using the pump, who were closer than I was. I was waiting for my

5 turn.

6 Q. If you can have a look at this photograph. Witness, do you

7 recognise the photograph?

8 A. Yes, that's the school building. After the shelling, it had

9 burned down, as you can see. It's the Simone Bolivar school. And it was

10 a hollow shell, so to speak.

11 In the middle of that building, there was a skylight. They

12 probably grew flowers there once upon a time. This was considered to be

13 the safest water-pump in Dobrinja, because all the other ones were

14 outdoors, in open areas, so to speak.

15 MR. WAESPI: If we can move - yes, thank you very much - to the

16 next picture on the same page, just a little bit lower.

17 Q. Do you recognise this picture, Witness?

18 A. Yes. This is the opening in which I stood. Right there. I'm not

19 sure if I should point it out. Do you want me to?

20 Q. Yes, please, if you could take a pen, which will be handed to you

21 by Ms. Usher, and mark with an A the location where you were standing the

22 moment the explosion occurred.

23 A. This is where I was standing. Right there.

24 Q. And can you indicate to Their Honours the water-pump, if you can

25 see it, and mark it with a B.

Page 2838

1 A. [Marks].

2 Q. And I see that there are empty canisters there. Did you have

3 similar canisters like those ones, or perhaps did one of them even belong

4 to you and your family?

5 A. I think not. I didn't make it to the pump, not before it

6 happened.

7 Q. Thank you, Witness. Maybe one last question.

8 MR. WAESPI: If we can go back to the first -- well, first let me

9 ask to have it tendered, this photo. Perhaps -- Mr. President, I

10 apologise.

11 Q. Witness, can you use this photo and tell us where the other people

12 were waiting to get water, the people who were even behind you when the

13 explosion occurred, and if you can mark it with a C.

14 A. Right behind this wall, and over there, too. And of course there

15 were several people around the pump itself; maybe five or six.

16 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.

17 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, I apologise, if these photos -- this

18 photo can be tendered.


20 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P285, Your Honours.


22 Q. Witness, did you get injured?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And what were your injuries?

25 A. The upper leg, the flesh, not the bone; and I received another

Page 2839

1 injury to the heel of that same leg, which is my right leg.

2 Q. And did you see other people injured or killed?

3 A. At the time this happened, yes, I did see some people who were

4 injured, and I saw some people who were dead by the time I reached the

5 hospital.

6 Q. Thank you, Witness. Can you tell Their Honours the names of

7 people who were injured and killed?

8 A. I can tell you the names of those I knew. Resad Imamovic, a

9 neighbour of mine; Kenan Cizmic, a 19-year-old man, my daughter's school

10 mate; and a total of seven others who were killed. Eleven or 12, were

11 wounded. As for those wounded, I knew Kalabic Afan. The rest I knew by

12 sight, but I didn't know their names.

13 Q. And these two people whom you saw killed, Mr. Imamovic and

14 Mr. Cizmic, did you see them alive the same morning?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So they died there on the spot as a cause of this explosion?

17 A. Resad Imamovic was killed on the spot --

18 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think this is a

19 leading question.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: "So they died there on the spot as a cause of

21 this explosion." Yes, it's leading, and you must avoid that, Mr. Waespi.

22 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.

23 Q. Do you know how come these people, whom you saw alive in the

24 morning, are now dead around lunch-time? Do you know the reason for that?

25 A. The explosion.

Page 2840

1 Q. Thank you, Witness. I'd like to show you another Prosecution

2 exhibit, that is, ter number 00113.

3 MR. WAESPI: And again, Mr. President, Your Honours, it's been

4 admitted by a previous witness as Exhibit P259.

5 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Prosecutor, you wish to move on to

6 another document, do you? May I just ask a question.

7 Witness, on the 28th of June, on this spot, seven people were

8 killed and 11 people injured, after the explosion; is that right?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 18th of June.

10 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] If I have understood you correctly,

11 in your statement you say that there was an attack on the 17th -- the 16th

12 and the 17th, so I would like to put to you the following question: Can

13 we understand this explosion to be part of the assault or attack of one

14 army -- one army attacking another, or would this be a deliberate attack

15 on this particular location?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It appears that it was a deliberate

17 attack. The morning itself it had been quite peaceful. As for previous

18 days, one thing I have to say is that Dobrinja was shelled on a regular

19 basis; the whole of Sarajevo, for that matter. But I myself was living in

20 Dobrinja and that's all that I can testify to.

21 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] My last question: Had this pump

22 already been targeted? Had there been injured and killed people before

23 the 18th of June?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

25 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 2841

1 MR. WAESPI: If ter number 00113 could be shown, please. I'm

2 interested in the second page. Perhaps the B/C/S version could also be

3 moved to the second page. Thank you very much.

4 Q. Now, Witness, towards the bottom of that page, you see a number of

5 people listed as killed. Do you see the two persons you had mentioned

6 before, Mr. Kalabic and Mr. Imamovic, listed there?

7 A. No. Cizmic -- Kalabic was wounded.

8 Q. Thank you very much for that clarification. And Mr. Imamovic?

9 A. Yes. Imamovic and Cizmic were the two who were killed. Those

10 were the two I knew.

11 Q. Thank you, Witness. And if we go to the bottom of the English

12 version - and I think it might be on the next page in the B/C/S version -

13 the list of wounded people on that day, do you see your name?

14 A. Yes. Number 5.

15 Q. And does the information stated there reflect the injuries you had

16 on that day?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And I believe you said that Mr. Afan Kalabic was also injured,

19 that you know him. Do you see his name mentioned here?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And do the injuries attributed to him also reflect your knowledge,

22 what you saw at that time?

23 A. Yes.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi, we're going to take the break now,

25 but is that your examination, or ...

Page 2842

1 MR. WAESPI: It's about five or ten more minutes.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. We'll take the break.

3 --- Recess taken at 5.36 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 5.56 p.m.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please continue, Mr. Waespi.

6 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.

7 Q. Witness, just a couple of more questions and then I'm done, from

8 my side.

9 You described your injuries. Did somebody take care of your

10 injuries?

11 A. Yes, the staff at the hospital.

12 Q. And which hospital was that?

13 A. Dobrinja Hospital. It used to be an outpatient clinic, but it was

14 transformed into a full-fledged hospital during the war.

15 Q. And how far away was it from the Simone Bolivar school?

16 A. There was the building in which I lived between the two, and I can

17 point that out for you, if you like.

18 Q. Yes.

19 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, Your Honours, I have asked for the

20 bird's-eye view, ter number 2981, to be displayed, and I would like Madam

21 Usher to assist the witness so she can make an A for the Simone Bolivar

22 school.

23 Q. If you recognise that school.

24 A. [Marks].

25 Q. Thank you, Witness. And then can you mark your apartment.

Page 2843

1 A. [Marks].

2 Q. And can you please put the letter B beside the cross you just

3 made.

4 A. I'm sorry.

5 Q. No need to apologise. And, lastly -- a couple of more questions.

6 Can you point the way or the path you took on the morning when you

7 went from your apartment to the water-pump? And please also indicate with

8 a letter C where the water-pump was located.

9 A. This is the skylight, where it used to be.

10 Q. And can you indicate the way you were walking along from your

11 apartment to where you were waiting to get water from the pump.

12 A. Just a minute, please. There is something I'd like to say, if I

13 may.

14 This building that we see in the photograph is the new school. I

15 realise now that it has been mended. I'm not sure if the skylight is

16 still in the same spot as it used to be. I don't know. But I do know

17 that this wall was destroyed. So this is where the old one might be and

18 where they kept the position of the old one. I can't say with certainty,

19 but the skylight was nearby, and the water-pump, too.

20 Q. Can you mark, please, where you thought the wall from the old

21 school building was with a marking.

22 A. You mean the one that was destroyed?

23 Q. Yes, please.

24 A. Which letter shall I put?

25 Q. D.

Page 2844

1 A. [Marks].

2 Q. Thank you, Witness. And incidentally, the water-pump, was it

3 covered, was it in a room, or was it open air?

4 A. That was the safest pump in Dobrinja, as I said a minute ago. The

5 pump itself was below what used to be the skylight and glass which was

6 destroyed in the war, and one could see the sky through this open area.

7 Q. Thank you. Witness, before the break you indicated that there was

8 a barrier erected against snipers in the street behind the Simone Bolivar

9 school. Can you also make a marking and also attach to it the letter E

10 where these sniper protection devices were?

11 A. Approximately here. In order to cross the street behind the

12 school, facing this neighbourhood were garbage containers, and people were

13 running there.

14 MR. WAESPI: The witness just marked something that appears to be

15 the letter E above the letter A.

16 Q. And, lastly, in relation to this photo, can you tell us where the

17 hospital was to which you were taken?

18 A. What letter shall I put?

19 Q. I'd suggest F.

20 A. I don't know if it is correct.

21 Q. Is that accurate or is that approximate?

22 A. Approximately.

23 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, if we could move on to the next --

24 MR. WAESPI: Yes, if we could tender that exhibit into evidence.

25 I'm grateful to --

Page 2845


2 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P286, Your Honours.

3 MR. WAESPI: I'm grateful to Ms. Bosnjakovic.

4 The next image I would like to show is ter number 02986, please.

5 Thank you very much.

6 Q. Witness, do you recognise this photo?

7 A. Yes. That's the school playground between my building and the

8 school; however, this fence was erected after the war.

9 Q. Thank you, Witness. And can you just indicate your apartment with

10 the letter A, please.

11 A. I cannot see it from here.

12 Q. And can you give an approximate direction where the apartment was?

13 A. Yes, I'll try. I think somewhere here. You said letter A?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. Approximately here.

16 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, lastly --

17 A. You're welcome.

18 Q. -- I would like you to have a look at a map.

19 MR. WAESPI: And, Mr. President, unfortunately we have to go back

20 to the stone age and use the ELMO. While doing that, if this exhibit here

21 could be tendered, please.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.

23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P287, Your Honours.

24 MR. WAESPI: And, Your Honours, I believe there are hard copies

25 for you as well. It's simply an enlargement of the usual map we are

Page 2846

1 always using with these witnesses. It's a blown-up version.

2 Q. Witness, can you please indicate using a pen - and I think for

3 this matter you have to use another pen, a conventional one - the Simone

4 Bolivar school. Yes. Make a circle around it.

5 A. [Marks].

6 Q. And please attach the letter A to the left of it.

7 A. [Marks].

8 Q. Thank you. And if you can also mark your apartment with a little

9 circle and attach the letter B to it, please.

10 A. This is the building.

11 Q. Thank you, Witness. And, lastly, these sniper barriers you

12 mentioned and you marked on the photo, where were they located?

13 A. How shall I mark them?

14 Q. Just a line. And please add the letter C on the right side to it.

15 A. [Marks].

16 Q. Thank you very much. And perhaps if you can see that, can you

17 tell Their Honours where the airport is on this map?

18 A. [Indicates].

19 Q. Can you make a circle around the words.

20 A. [Marks].

21 Q. And please attach the letter D to it.

22 A. [Marks].

23 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.

24 MR. WAESPI: If this exhibit could be tendered, please,

25 Mr. President.

Page 2847


2 THE REGISTRAR: As P288, Your Honours.

3 MR. WAESPI: My last question, Mr. President, is:

4 Q. Witness, can you very, very briefly --

5 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please continue.

7 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Q. Witness, can you very briefly tell Their Honours what happened to

9 your mother during the war.

10 A. My mother was captured in Kula and kept in detention for about 80

11 or 90 days, simply because she went to visit my sister who fled from

12 Grbavica to Hrasno. My mother didn't know her way around this

13 neighbourhood. She went to Grbavica and she was taken to Kula. We failed

14 to release her through the Red Cross and in all other ways. But we failed

15 and she remained there for 90 days, and she was 83 years old.

16 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. President. That concludes my

18 examination-in-chief.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

20 Ms. Isailovic.

21 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Cross-examination by Ms. Isailovic:

23 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness. I am Branislava

24 Isailovic, member of the Paris Bar Association. I'm the counsel of

25 General Milosevic before this Chamber. I would like to ask a few

Page 2848

1 questions on your evidence.

2 First of all, I would like you to give us a word of explanation on

3 something.

4 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] But perhaps for this purpose, we'd

5 need to have on the screen the picture P285, 285, already tendered by the

6 Prosecutor. Should it be my assistant doing this, or not?

7 Q. We were talking about this well or this pump which was located

8 inside that Simone Bolivar school. We'll see the picture. But first of

9 all I'd like to ask you whether it was a well on which the pump was

10 installed, or were these normal public facilities with drains and pipes,

11 pipes bringing the water? Do you know that, or not?

12 A. I don't know exactly, but I assume that these pumps were installed

13 whenever there was need for water in Dobrinja.

14 Q. At that time it would happen that you had water in your apartment.

15 A. Yes. Sometimes we had water.

16 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll ask the interpreters to

17 translate the answer again.

18 Q. Because earlier on you said "pustala se voda."

19 A. Yes. Water supply was restored for a couple of hours. I can't

20 tell you exactly at what intervals. Sometimes it happened that there was

21 no water for months, in a row, and then we would get some water for a

22 couple of hours.

23 Q. Witness, at the time, do you know who was in charge of the water

24 supply?

25 A. As far as I know, the Serbian forces were holding the waterworks.

Page 2849

1 Q. You thought it was the Serbs who were in charge and who were

2 controlling the water?

3 A. Yes. Otherwise, we would have had water, had it not been the

4 case. We would have had regular water supply.

5 Q. And you can see the picture and you can see here the device, the

6 pump. In your statement and in your evidence today, you said that it was

7 a Muharem who was actually keeping this device in his place. Is this

8 correct?

9 A. This upper part of the pump that can you see is portable. In

10 order to prevent people coming there whenever they felt like doing so, he

11 took it with him to his home. Whenever water was available, he would

12 bring this pump and install it.

13 Q. Witness, you said that this Muharem was a member of the civil

14 protection; is that correct?

15 A. Well, I don't know. Possibly, judging by his age. I really don't

16 know, madam.

17 Q. And on that day --

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: What was his age?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't tell you. He was an

20 elderly person.


22 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. A few days before the 18th of June incident, you said that -- you

24 said Muharem would not install the pump because of lack of security.

25 A. Yes.

Page 2850

1 Q. As far as you know, was it Muharem making decisions on whether the

2 situation was suitable for installing the pump, or was it someone else?

3 A. I believe it was the civilian protection; that's why I mentioned

4 the civilian protection. I believe that they were the ones who allowed or

5 disallowed water to be fetched.

6 Q. Coming back to my first question, do you think that the water was

7 pumped from a well which was bored underneath the school?

8 A. Well, yes, this water was found there, but this water was not

9 drinking water.

10 Q. To make sure I understand you, the water for which you were

11 queueing was industrial water; it was not drinking water.

12 A. Yes. We didn't drink this water; we just used it for washing

13 laundry.

14 Q. And how did you manage for drinking water? And which kind of

15 water did you use to cook?

16 A. From the well, or if the supply were restored after months, then

17 we would collect as much as we could.

18 Q. And where were the wells located for this drinking water?

19 A. I never went to this well. My husband did. I'm not very

20 knowledgeable about estimating distances, but I would say approximately

21 500 metres from my house.

22 Q. And possibly you also learned from your husband in which

23 neighbourhood these wells were, where you used to go.

24 A. C5.

25 Q. If you look at the map that you have on the ELMO, can you see C5

Page 2851

1 on that map?

2 A. I believe so.

3 Q. Yes, go ahead.

4 A. This is C5 neighbourhood and this is approximately the distance,

5 diagonally. So, roughly speaking, it was closer to C5. And I think that

6 this neighbourhood is called Aerodromsko neighbourhood.

7 Q. Witness, did you know who at the time was in control of what there

8 in Dobrinja? For example, C5 was under the control of which army?

9 A. It was a free territory and we could move freely.

10 Q. You've just shown the airport area. Can you point to this again,

11 point to the airport area. Do you know who was -- under the control of

12 whom this area was?

13 A. The Serbian army.

14 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] We may have a technical problem

15 because we only have one copy marked by the witness. Can we tender this?

16 It may be useful to have the marking we've just made now.

17 MR. WAESPI: Well, so far the witness hasn't made an additional

18 marking. She can certainly use a red pen to make additional markings. I

19 also have another copy which can be used.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, let's proceed on that basis.

21 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] With a red pen, then, please.

22 Q. Witness, could you mark this as C5. This would be the well, the

23 well with drinking water. Can you just mark it with the letter C and

24 figure 5.

25 A. One had to pass through C5 neighbourhood in order to reach this

Page 2852

1 area, so approximately between Aerodromsko neighbourhood and C5. I can't

2 show you exactly here on this map because I can't read a map properly.

3 Q. Could you just circle the area where you believe it to be, which

4 you described a while ago. You said it was between the airport and a

5 place neighbouring the airport. Could you circle the area roughly, the --

6 A. This area.

7 Q. It doesn't have to be too precise. And could you just mark this

8 with the letter P, P standing for well, "puits."

9 A. [Marks].

10 Q. We also mentioned the area controlled by the Republika Srpska, the

11 area in the airport. If you could circle this on the map also, please.

12 A. This whole neighbourhood.

13 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Now, Your Honour, I don't remember

14 the number, but I think this is a P exhibit. So does this exhibit remain

15 as it stands, or what are we to do? Do we keep the same number, in other

16 words, for this exhibit?

17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: We keep the same number.

19 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Witness, you mentioned, and you said in your statement, the day

21 before or perhaps two days before, you placed your empty jerrycans inside

22 the Simone Bolivar school. Is this true?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And the day you went there, on the morning of the 18th of June,

25 1995, did you find your jerrycans in the same spot, as you'd left them?

Page 2853

1 A. Approximately in the same place. And we all put our initials on

2 our jerrycans.

3 Q. And you didn't notice anything, that the jerrycans had fallen on

4 the ground or that something had happened in that particular spot?

5 A. No, no. They could have overturned because they were empty, but I

6 didn't see anything unusual.

7 Q. I think I need to say something here. What I heard in my

8 translation headset wasn't right. Were these jerrycans on the floor or

9 not?

10 A. They could have been overturned. Some remained, maybe, upright;

11 some were overturned on the ground, because they were empty.

12 Q. Do you remember a statement you made on the 23rd of February,

13 1996, which you gave the OTP? We're going to have it coming up on the

14 screen so that you can be quite sure.

15 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] This is a 65 ter document, number

16 2980.

17 Q. Now you can see the cover page, the first page, of your

18 statement. Can you see it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I can't see your signature. Can you see your signature?

21 A. I can see it, yes.

22 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to ask my case manager to

23 go to page 3. This is the first paragraph I'm interested in, and in the

24 English version, it's the second paragraph. So the first paragraph for

25 the witness and the second paragraph for the English speakers in the

Page 2854

1 courtroom.

2 Q. Here you mention the presence of the police on that morning in

3 that particular place; is that right?

4 A. They warned us not to go there as a group, into an open space

5 where the pump was. And I believe it was the police or the civilian

6 protection who gave us this warning; I'm not quite sure.

7 Q. When you went there, when you went to the school, when you went

8 inside, you saw the police, a policeman, did you?

9 A. As I was approaching -- inside the room, yes.

10 Q. And here you say that it seemed strange. Is that what you said?

11 A. I'm not sure where I said that.

12 Q. I'm sorry, this is not word for word what you said. You said

13 usually the police was not there.

14 A. I found it strange, you mean?

15 Q. So this seemed strange to you, did it?

16 A. I'm not sure if that was exactly what I said. But this man who

17 brought the water-pump warned us, too. He would bring it whenever it was

18 safe, and he would always say it as well. He would warn us to go one by

19 one and not in a group.

20 Q. According to what you remember, could you tell us why the police

21 were there on that day, which was rather unusual?

22 A. I really don't know.

23 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender your

24 statement into evidence because the Prosecutor has not done so.


Page 2855

1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D88, Your Honours.

2 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Could we go back to the school now. This is what was left of the

4 school, in other words. And around the square where the pump was located,

5 the remaining walls of the school, were they around this area?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Witness, in your opinion, the group of people inside the school

8 walls, could they be seen from the outside, do you think?

9 A. That depends on where you were looking from. If you were looking

10 from the side where the wall had been destroyed, in that case the answer

11 is yes. But not from the direction of the water-pump.

12 Q. I'm not quite happy with what I heard so I will put my question

13 again.

14 You're saying that you could be seen from your building; in other

15 words, if someone was inside the building, he could have seen you, he or

16 she could have seen you.

17 A. No, because that was deeper down, the entrance; the length of a

18 rather sizeable room, if you like. But the wall had been destroyed and

19 you could see that there were people inside.

20 Q. And from the other sides, could you be seen or not?

21 A. Me personally?

22 Q. No. I had the group of people inside in mind.

23 A. From the direction of the water-pump, one could only see me,

24 because I was standing at what used to be the door, and the other -- the

25 remaining people, the group, were behind that wall.

Page 2856

1 Q. Witness, you talked about your unfortunate neighbour who was

2 wounded and killed during that incident. Did you only see this person in

3 hospital? Is that right?

4 A. We were standing in a triangle, the three of us. They were a

5 little ahead of me, in what used to be the corridor of the school, and I

6 was standing in the doorway. To my right was the one who was killed, and

7 to my left, the one who was wounded.

8 Q. And after the impact of the shell, did you still see these people?

9 A. No. My eyes went blind at that moment so I didn't see those

10 people. When I was rising to my feet, I did see people around me.

11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters could not hear the last part of

12 the answer on account of the amount of background noise interfering with

13 the witness's voice. Thank you.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: May I ask you, Madam Witness, to repeat the last

15 part of your question, as the interpreter did not hear it.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You asked if I was able to see --

17 could you please repeat the question?

18 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. My question was: At the time of the impact, did you see them?

20 Your neighbours, I mean, who fell.

21 A. Well, we had been talking just moments before. We were standing

22 in some sort of triangle. So when this happened everything went black

23 before my eyes. I fell down, and of course at that precise moment I

24 didn't see them.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 2857

1 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Now, could we have the map of

2 Sarajevo, showing the streets of Sarajevo, 65 ter document 2872, if this

3 could come up on the screen.

4 Q. Witness, this is a tourist map and we can see the streets of

5 Sarajevo on it. It's going to take a while.

6 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to ask the court officer

7 or the usher, I don't know, to show us the left-hand side of the map which

8 lies to the bottom of the map. If we could enlarge it somewhat, please.

9 That's fine.

10 Q. Can you see it properly? Can you find your way around on the map,

11 Witness?

12 A. I see it clearly, but I'm not very good with these maps.

13 Q. Precisely.

14 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps we could enlarge it a

15 little bit more, the area where you can see the airport. Yes.

16 Q. That's better now, isn't it? Can you see the Dobrinja area now,

17 your area? Perhaps the usher could help you and give you the electronic

18 pen, please.

19 Can you find your street, or your neighbourhood, rather, Dobrinja,

20 and mark with the letter A, the place where your street is.

21 A. It's very small so I can only mark it roughly. I'm trying to make

22 out something that is familiar. The letter A, you said? I'm not sure,

23 but I think that's where it is.

24 Q. Yes, thank you. Now, could you draw a circle around the airport

25 and the runway, please.

Page 2858

1 A. I really can't see it. I think it should be marked, but I can't

2 see it. It should be around here. Believe me, I can't see it.

3 Hereabouts, roughly speaking.

4 Q. Witness, as you lived in this area, do you know where Mojmilo is

5 on this map?

6 A. I was living in this area, but Mojmilo is over here. I'm not sure

7 if I marked it properly. Did I?

8 Q. What you have indicated to us is where Mojmilo, the area, is.

9 But did you know the hill that was called Mojmilo?

10 A. Not before the war.

11 Q. How about now? On the map, can you locate it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could you show us where it is. Could you mark it, please.

14 A. Should I use a letter?

15 Q. Just circle it; it's not a dot. So just circle the area and mark

16 with an M.

17 A. Just what I did.

18 Q. Could you see Mount Mojmilo from your flat?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And what did this look like?

21 A. What do you mean? What exactly do you mean when you say that?

22 Q. What does this mountain look like today? How high is it? Is it

23 green? What does it look like?

24 A. It isn't really that high. It's very green. Not that big,

25 really, but quite long. It runs virtually the entire length of this

Page 2859

1 street. It's like a long ridge but not very high, and quite green. I'm

2 not sure if that's helpful. Is it?

3 Q. Yes, it is a help, thank you.

4 When it was wartime, did you know that there was a tunnel under

5 the runway, and the entrance to that tunnel was in Dobrinja and the exit

6 was in Donji Kotorac? Does that ring a bell?

7 A. I know that the entrance was in Dobrinja. I don't know where the

8 exit was, but you're probably right. I'm not sure.

9 Q. Witness, at the time do you know where that tunnel led to?

10 A. Well, probably Donji Kotorac. At least that's what you said. I'm

11 not sure what you mean, really.

12 Q. I used the word "destination." Did you know where it led to?

13 What I mean is --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Do you mean purpose, perhaps, purpose of the

15 tunnel, or where did it lead to; interpreter's note.

16 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. What was the purpose of this tunnel?

18 A. People, many people, used it to get food.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, I'm not able to ascertain where

20 your cross-examination is leading.

21 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I did put the question to the

22 witness because I wanted to know whether she knew of a tunnel that had

23 been dug under the airport, under one of the runways of the airport, and

24 she said she did know. So the next question had to do with the purpose of

25 this tunnel, what purpose did it serve, and she said she didn't know. So

Page 2860

1 I have no further questions on the existence of the tunnel.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well.

3 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Witness, the territory which was to the left, what I mean is the

5 Dobrinja area, is that where the confrontation line between the two armies

6 was located?

7 A. I'm not sure I understand the question. Anyway, I didn't know

8 where the lines were held by either army. I knew the approximate location

9 of the Serbian army, but I wouldn't quite be able to put my finger on it

10 now.

11 Q. Did you know that if one goes beyond the runway of the airport

12 there's Butmir and Kotorac. At the time did you know who was controlling

13 these territories?

14 A. Yes. The BH army.

15 Q. Just one last question, Witness. Did you see soldiers of the ABiH

16 army in your area?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Thank you, Witness.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Any re-examination, Mr. Waespi?

20 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. President, just very briefly.

21 If the ELMO can be lowered so I can see the witness, please.

22 Thank you.

23 Re-examination by Mr. Waespi:

24 Q. Witness, just two or three questions. The first one: You were

25 asked to mark on the map where you thought that well was, and I think you

Page 2861

1 marked it with a letter P, past C5 and just before that settlement you

2 called Aerodromsko. You also said that your husband used to go there.

3 Did you ever yourself go to that well?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Thank you, Witness. Next question is: Was it a secret or was it

6 a well-known fact that there was a water-pump installed at times at the

7 Simone Bolivar school?

8 A. Most of the time it was a secret because we couldn't tell when

9 that would be, when they would bring water. There were no set times, if

10 that's what you mean.

11 Q. And you said that you had to cross the open area between your

12 apartment and the Simone Bolivar school; do you remember that?

13 A. The playground, yes.

14 Q. And I believe you also said it was a dangerous spot; that you had

15 to cross swiftly. Do you remember that as well?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. And can you remind us again why it was a dangerous spot, to cross

18 between your apartment over the playground to the school?

19 A. There was a sniper covering the area.

20 Q. Thank you very much.

21 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, I have no further questions.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

23 Questioned by the Court:

24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Witness, this sniper area, do you know where

25 that was? Can you tell us if the sniper nest, as it were, was that in --

Page 2862

1 who controlled the area where the sniper nest was?

2 A. I'm not really familiar with the place, but the assumption was

3 that this was above Nedzarici and that this was being held by the Serb

4 army.

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

6 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, just a clarification. I'm not sure

7 whether the transcript captured the area. The witness indicated that it

8 was the assumption that it was from which side?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Above Nedzarici.

10 MR. WAESPI: Is it Dzarici or --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nedzarici.

12 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Witness.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nedzarici.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, that concludes your evidence. Thank you

15 for giving it. You may now leave.

16 We'll adjourn until tomorrow at 2.15 p.m.

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.56 p.m.,

19 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 28th day of

20 February, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.