1 Thursday, 1 March 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, I understand you have some
6 matters to raise.
7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm going to be very
9 Two days ago we discussed a translation, and we were supposed to
10 put forward our position the next day. If we cannot do that today in the
11 absence of Mr. Whiting, I would link this to another issue that the
12 Chamber has raised yesterday, and if you allow me to give you a short
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Will be about the other issue because I think it
15 would be preferable to have the submissions made when Mr. Whiting is here,
16 unless, Mr. Waespi, are you in a position to -- to deal with that?
17 MR. WAESPI: Yes I will be, Mr. President, but only after the next
18 break, because I do have a small file on that.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We'll hear the submissions on the
20 translation matter immediately after the next break. So I'll hear you on
21 the other matter which you have to raise.
22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. I understand and
23 appreciate that. But yesterday in the middle of my examination I found
24 myself in a situation where I was compelled to answer a very delicate
25 question. It is related to this document, and it referred to a medical
1 record and you asked me where my questioning was leading.
2 At that moment I said what I said, and I stand by that, but in
3 order to avoid any further misunderstandings -- and I'm not sure whether I
4 will be capable of doing that -- let me say a few things. I really
5 largely shortened my cross-examination not to address any other issues
6 that I intend to raise in my Defence case together with my team. The crux
7 of the matter is that what the Prosecutor is duty bound to do is to prove
8 beyond a reasonable doubt what is being alleged in the indictment.
9 As Defence counsel, it is my duty to point to all the facts that
10 increase this doubt up to the point that I can deny the whole incident.
11 I'm going to pursue this line further on, and I will keep insisting on
12 establishing the facts. I don't like to use proverbs or Latin phrases,
13 but let me say something in my language that I recently wrote about, and
14 that is, give me the facts, I will give you the law, and I can amend that
15 by saying this, and that is, give me the facts, I will give you the law,
16 and that eventually leads to justice. I will do my best all the time to
17 deal and establish only the facts in order to assist you and the Defence
18 of the accused.
19 I will never put the victims in a situation where they will feel
20 belittled or to deny that they had suffered. Even if they haven't -- when
21 they didn't suffer, it is my duty to dispute that, and I felt it was my
22 duty to try to explain to -- this to you; however, whenever you feel that
23 you need to intervene, I will abide by that.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Tapuskovic.
25 Can we have the witness in now.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 [The witness entered court]
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, may I invite you to continue your
5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
6 WITNESS: DZEMALUDIN LUINOVIC [Resumed]
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Tapuskovic: [Continued]
9 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, let us continue where we left off
10 yesterday, and I will ask you again if you are able, of course, I'm not
11 going to stop you, but I would prefer as short answers as possible.
12 A. All right.
13 Q. One of the questions raised on the basis of what the Prosecutor
14 asked to you explain was that the shop that you owned before the conflict
15 handed over to the BH army for use. Is that correct?
16 A. No, it isn't. My shop where I worked, I only repaired vehicles,
17 mostly golf cars, if a policeman had an accident or a glass was broken, I
18 replaced and that was the whole cooperation.
19 Q. Then I will go back to your statement -- I'm not going to do it
20 now, but I'm going to point this out to you once we come to your
22 Can you tell me, as a member of the reserve forces of MUP
23 Sarajevo, who was in command of your units, police units? Can you tell me
24 his name?
25 A. To tell you the truth, I don't know. I had my station chief. I
1 knew him, but I didn't know anyone else. I had no contact with him, I was
2 just an ordinary policeman. I had no business dealing with them.
3 Q. So is it fair to say that not in a single action related to
4 military affairs as a reserve police, you not take part?
5 A. No, I didn't.
6 Q. Very well. You did not have an ordinary rifle; you had a
8 A. It was a semi-automatic rifle. I cannot even assemble or
9 disassemble it even if you gave me 100.000 German marks this very minute.
10 But I did carry one.
11 Q. This semi-automatic rifle you never used; that's what you said
13 A. No, no, I didn't.
14 Q. Was there another policeman nearby across the street, armed just
15 like you were with a machine-gun and a pistol?
16 A. Whoever was in the police was issued with weapons. Whether they
17 took -- took it with them home or left it at the station I don't know.
18 There was not enough rifles, so we had to give rifles to one another.
19 Q. That is not what I asked you. I asked you whether -- in close
20 proximity where you were, was another policeman on duty or on guard? Or I
21 don't know how to qualify it.
22 A. There were two of us. I was there and another colleague of mine.
23 We were securing the municipal building of Novi Grad municipality. There
24 were two of us.
25 Q. On that day and the preceding days and the days afterwards, were
1 there any conflict between the two parties?
2 A. I never went to the front line. All I know was that there was
3 shooting on a daily basis. There was not a single day that Sarajevo was
4 not being shelled all over the place. I am not a detective or an
5 inspector to keep track of that. I myself saw this one particular shell
6 where it came and then I saw another one. It hit my house and I saw the
7 direction, but as for the others, I cannot say anything.
8 Q. That is not what I asked you. I didn't ask but the shelling of
9 Sarajevo. I believe you, what you are say being that. But my question
10 was whether any shells were fired from Sarajevo at the opponents'
12 A. I have no idea whether there were any such weapons in Sarajevo at
14 Q. Thank you. Do you think that on the 26th of May, 1996, were loud
15 explosions by NATO bombing?
16 A. Yes, I did hear when Lukavica was being bombed, I was at my
17 workplace. But I don't know who was bombing what and what was actually
19 Q. Safeta Hadzica Street where the incident that you described
20 yesterday when the Prosecutor examined you happened, how far is this
21 street from Mojmilo hill?
22 A. The Mojmilo hill is about 150 metres from my house. That is where
23 the hill begins, 150 metres. This is just roughly speaking. I didn't
24 measure the distance.
25 Q. Thank you. And the ridge of Mojmilo hill, is it approximately 3
1 kilometres long?
2 A. The Mojmilo hill, well, I really can't tell you. Whatever I say,
3 I'll probably be wrong, believe me. I suppose that Mojmilo hill should be
4 between 6 and 7 kilometres.
5 Q. Well, I'm not asking to you be accurate. You said what you said.
6 Was the BH army occupied by BH army -- was this hill occupied by BH army?
7 A. I cannot tell you that. I never went to the front line.
8 Q. In any case, would it be fair to say that Mojmilo hill obstructs
9 the view of both Lukavica and Ilidza?
10 A. Let me tell you something. I could see Ilidza, but I couldn't see
12 Q. Since Hrasno hill is also nearby, how far it is from your house?
13 A. Hrasno Brdo, well, could be 3 or 4 kilometres.
14 Q. And you know who held this hill, which army?
15 A. To tell you the truth, I don't know.
16 Q. You don't know who was on the Zuc hill, either?
17 A. Well, if I were a commander, I would possibly be able to answer
18 this question. I am just an ordinary policeman. I just observed things.
19 That was all. I was just watching shells falling, and I don't know who
20 was fighting who, who was attacking whom.
21 Q. Very well. Yesterday you said that you saw the flight of the
22 shell approaching your neighbourhood; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you also said that it flew at a low speed, that you could see
25 it very well, and that it hit the roof of the building that you showed us?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Can you explain what happened after it hit the roof?
3 A. I was watching it. It was coming slowly from up there, and I
4 thought it was an aeroplane and I thought it was a jet aeroplane
5 descending and I thought to myself, it's flying so low, it's going to hit
6 the building. No sooner had I thought that than it hit the building and
7 there was a strong detonation and explosion and I was afraid that my wife
8 and children, my brothers --
9 Q. You explained that yesterday. I'm asking you to tell me after it
10 had hit the roof, what happened with it? I'm not going to lead you, but I
11 may just suggest to you, did it continue flying or did it remain on the
13 A. It penetrated the roof one slab and then the next slab. It blew
14 the windows and doors out. It was a very powerful detonation.
15 Q. That's fine. I never doubted that for a moment, but can you
16 please just tell me. You said something yesterday, and I see that you
17 know very little about those things. You said yesterday it was fired from
18 a launching pad. Can you please explain how you know something like that
19 and what is a launching pad, can you explain that for our benefit?
20 A. Well, you know, I served my term in the JNA and I saw that sort of
21 thing being used in the army. That's why I know that you need a launching
22 pad, a motor-propelled launching pad to launch a shell like this. And the
23 range is not particularly big.
24 Q. Not necessarily. They can be dropped from planes, can't they?
25 But how did you know they were using launching pads to fire these shells?
1 A. This one was. I have a preference for telling the truth and
2 nothing but the truth.
3 Q. But when the war began, sir, it wasn't just the people on the
4 other side who had JNA weapons. It also the BH army that had got hold of
5 considerable amounts of weapons that had formally belonged to the JNA.
6 Was that not the case, sir?
7 A. Just one thing I know, and that is the truth. The JNA had the
8 whole array of truly powerful weapons. Each of us had to pay into the
9 communal kitty to get those weapons. All I know is that eventually, the
10 only ones who got to use the weapons were the Serbs.
11 Q. You say the Serbs. But who was it who was living on the other
12 side of Mojmilo, people who used to be your neighbours until the very day
13 the war began? Who was there?
14 A. Well, both Serbs and Muslims, but they were expelled.
15 Q. Fine. Those who used to live there before the war, right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I would have to show you a document now. This is from the 65 ter
18 list, 00139A. This is an official report dated the 1st of June, 1995.
19 It's about the incident on the 26th of May, 1995, the incident addressed
20 by this witness.
21 Let's start with the last page. There's a translation of this
23 Can the witness look at page 1, first, please. We don't have the
24 English yet, do we?
25 Can we have the English on our screens?
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi, you're going to help.
2 MR. WAESPI: Yes. There is an ERN number of the English version.
3 This is 00846948.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: It's on the screen.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.
7 Q. Witness, you see the report, don't you? It's an official report.
8 A. To tell you the truth, I can't see a thing. You could pay me, I
9 still couldn't see anything.
10 Q. All right. We'll try to zoom in.
11 Can you see anything now?
12 A. Through a glass darkly.
13 Q. Here, you can have my glasses.
14 A. I use special glasses. I'm 60 years old.
15 Q. I'm 70 years old. My eyesight is still okay.
16 A. Yes, but I need my special glasses for this.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Waespi.
18 MR. WAESPI: Yes, you recall me present and then the Defence
19 counsel -- that yesterday the witness indicated that he had forgotten his
20 glasses at home. Perhaps, if the relevant parts could be read to the
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I find that acceptable.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is no problem at all. As far
24 as I'm concerned, I'll be glad to oblige.
25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Witness, it says here, Ministry of the Interior, Sarajevo, the 1st
2 of June, 1995, official report, in relation to the 26th of May, 1995,
3 which is the day when the bomb fell. Can you accept for a fact that this
4 is what the report is about, just based on my reading, sir?
5 A. Can I accept that this report for a fact, you mean?
6 Q. No. Can you accept, that since I read to you what the report
7 said, this is true?
8 A. Well, it must be true if my police station was the one who
9 produced the report then it must be true, right.
10 Q. All right.
11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please go to the last
12 page in both English and B/C/S, page 3.
13 Q. And let me read another portion of the document to you, sir.
14 A. Very well.
15 Q. There, we have it now, but we have no English.
16 Look at the last paragraph, please. I'll tell what you it says.
17 "In addition to the injured, the following persons witnessed the
18 shelling," and then there is a list of names of which I won't be reading
19 to you, but one of the names on the list is your name, Dzemaludin Luinovic
20 from Sarajevo, permanently residing at, and then your street address is
21 stated. Is that right?
22 A. That I was wounded and injured?
23 Q. No, that you were an eye-witness to the incident?
24 A. Well, let me tell you one thing. When I realised that the shell
25 had impacted inside, I didn't go there at all.
1 Q. That is not what I'm asking you, Witness, is it? Can you please
2 confirm what it says here, that they interviewed you and that you were one
3 of the eye-witnesses. That's what I'm putting to you. That's what I'm
4 reading out to you. Is that true?
5 A. Yes. I am an eye-witness to the impact of the shell.
6 Q. Fair enough. Further up the page it says a modified air bomb fell
7 on the roof of a residential building, wounding several persons in the
8 process and causing a considerable amount of material damage to the nearby
9 buildings. That's what the report says. If that's what the report says,
10 can you accept that as something that is recorded there?
11 A. Sure I can.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please now go back to page
14 1. There.
15 Q. Page 1, first you see the names, the people who were in charge of
16 the investigation, and then two paragraphs down, you see paragraph 3. It
17 says that what you saw fell, it hit the roof, it exploded, and -- no, no.
18 This is what it says: "One explosive device, a powerful one, and that on
19 this occasion, several persons were injured." That's one part of the
20 sentence. So I might as well go on and read the whole thing, but I don't
21 wish to tire the Chamber with this. They will soon realise why I'm doing
23 You spoke about the fact that this was a very powerful shell and
24 that it caused injuries to several persons in the building on top of which
25 the shell landed. If that's what it says, can you confirm that for a fact,
2 A. Let me tell you one thing. I did realise -- I did see that people
3 had been injured, but I did not take any details from those people. It
4 was the police inspectors who took their personal details because that was
5 their job, not mine.
6 Q. Fair enough. I would like to go on and read the next line back to
7 you, the following paragraph. It says: "An on-site investigation was
8 conducted on the scene itself and it's immediate surroundings. It was
9 established that, in the vicinity of the residential building at Safeta
10 Hadzica Street and then the number is stated, several artillery missiles
11 had landed, causing no injury to any person." That's what it says, sir.
12 Can we take that at face value, what they recorded here?
13 A. I agree with this statement. No injuries were caused to anyone by
14 those small shells that followed the big shell.
15 Q. Very well. Let's move on to your statements, sir. These have
16 been admitted as OTP exhibits. The first one is P00297; I want page 2 of
17 that statement, please. My apologies, P00298; that's the first thing we
18 have to tackle. Page 2, I'll start with paragraph 7. Here, sir, you
19 say: "I can remember clearly the day that our neighbourhood was shelled.
20 It was on the 26th of May. It must have been around 11.00 a.m. I have
21 had been mobilised in to the reserve force of the police, so I was on duty
22 on that day."
23 Is that what you said, sir?
24 A. Indeed, I did.
25 Q. And the statement goes on to say: "I suddenly heard a loud noise
1 like a plane about to land, and I saw something flying in from the
2 direction of Ilidza. Soon after I heard a powerful explosion."
3 Is that right, sir?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Fair enough. Paragraph 8. "Although I was on duty and was not
6 supposed to leave my post, I ran across to my flat because I feared for
7 the lives of my family, my father and daughter were standing outside."
8 Is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So despite the fact that this bomb had landed, you found your
11 father and your daughter out in the street; right?
12 A. No, it wasn't out in the street. They were in the front yard in
13 front of my house. They were crying. My old man was really angry, that
14 sort of thing.
15 Q. They were outside the house any way, outside the flat; right?
16 A. Yes, but the distance might have been perhaps 25 to 30 metres
17 between my house and my father's house, so they just walked out into the
18 front yard to see what exactly was going on. My daughter was crying. My
19 father started crying, too. I told them to go to our neighbour's house
20 and take cover in the basement, that sort of thing.
21 Q. But nobody had been injured up to this point; right?
22 A. When the first big shell fell, there was some people who were
23 injured inside the building. But I didn't go there, I just went to my own
24 home to make sure that none of family had were injured.
25 Q. That's not what you say here. Okay. We can take that at face
1 value if you like. You told them to go back inside; right?
2 A. Yes. So I went back inside and I took cover. Because, based on
3 previous experience, I knew --
4 Q. Well, you said yesterday --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. -- that there would be other shells following; right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is that right?
9 A. Sure. That's right.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, I suspect, in fact, I know the
11 interpreter is having a hard time keeping up with you. You're going too
12 fast and not observing the pause between question and answer. That
13 applies to the witness and to Mr. Tapuskovic.
14 Do you understand that, Witness?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.
16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] You're entirely right, Your
17 Honour. I'm trying to keep track of time and then I forget all about
18 this. If I have been looking at my screen -- well, okay, I'll start
19 looking at my screen again.
20 Q. Based on your experience, you knew that there would be more shells
21 coming; is that right?
22 A. Yes, that was just a thing that normally happened.
23 Q. You go on to say -- you go on to say, "my predictions eventually
24 proved true"; right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Several minutes later, the same building that had been hit was
2 showered with other smaller shells; is that right?
3 A. It wasn't that the building was hit, it was around the building
4 and in the direction of the police station.
5 Q. What I'm reading to you is your own statement to OTP investigators
6 back in 2006 on the 26th of April. You said, literally, "that same
7 building that had been hit was showered with other smaller shells." Are
8 you trying to challenge that statement? Are you telling us that that is
9 not true?
10 A. What I'm telling you is that no other shell fell on that building;
11 other shells did fall around it. That's what I'm saying.
12 Q. But look how it goes on, this is what you say: "The shells
13 partially damaged my home too. Fortunately, no one in my family was
14 injured." Is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And now, please, sir, can you focus on the following words,
17 especially because this is part of your statement, this paragraph 9 of
18 your statement. Pay close attention, please.
19 "After the shelling had stopped and I came out of the house, I
20 learned that during the shelling many people had been injured. It was
21 only after the shells had landed," as you say here, that you learned that
22 many persons, many people had been wounded. Is that what you're saying,
24 A. What I'm saying is that no one was injured around my home. I don't
25 know about further afield. I couldn't possibly go moving about under all
1 these shells that were falling down on us. I had to look after myself.
2 Somebody probably was killed, but I am no super man. I can't keep running
3 around just to check who was killed when or why.
4 Q. But this is what I'm putting to you the difference is. You say
5 that after the first shell there were no injured or casualties in general.
6 You say here that the casualties were caused by the shells that followed,
7 that landed on the area. I'll tell you something else. Are you denying
8 there what you said in that first statement, sir?
9 A. Sir, what I'm telling you, which -- or in certain knowledge, a
10 shell that big landing on top of a building causing no casualties, that
11 would be the first, but I leave it to you to interpret that.
12 Q. Witness, I'm not construing anything. I'm just dealing with your
13 statement and what you claim to have seen and what was recorded.
14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now have witness's
15 statement P00298, given on the 26th of April, 2006. No, I don't know what
16 I'm doing any longer. It's actually P00297, dated 10th of March, 1997.
17 And if we could move now to page 2, please.
18 Let me go back for a minute to the issue of your workshop. You
19 answered these questions and corrected it during the examination-in-chief.
20 However, I have to return to this topic. Look at paragraph 3, which reads
21 that "on the 15th of May, 1992, I was appointed a reserve policeman which
22 I continued until 8th of January, 1996" which means that after the war
23 finished, you remained a member of the reserve forces until January 1996.
24 A. Until demobilisation and everybody knows when that took place.
25 That is when the whole reserve force was disbanded.
1 Q. And you just said --
2 A. Excuse me?
3 Q. Just a moment. And then you went on to say, during the war, my
4 private workshop was also used as a workshop of the BH army.
5 Is that what you said?
6 A. No, that's not correct.
7 Q. Can you tell me how big your workshop was where you repaired cars?
8 A. Well, if you ever came to Sarajevo, you know how they look like.
9 They were not big ones. Here in Holland they have rather sizeable
10 workshops. So it was about seven by three metres. And if you believe I
11 was capable of doing anything major there -- and it was specifically
12 intended for car repairs.
13 Q. I'm putting to you that at that time this workshop was used in
14 order to camouflage certain things; for example, mortars?
15 A. That's ridiculous.
16 Q. Thank you. Let me draw your attention now to the penultimate
17 passage which says: "I went to the scene of the shelling." Can you see
18 it? Can you see it?
19 A. What is your question?
20 Q. You say here: "I went to the scene of the shelling and assisted
21 my colleagues, meaning the policemen; right?
22 A. There were no policemen there, sir.
23 Q. Very well. What kind of colleagues are we talking about?
24 A. Those were people. I don't know whether it was UNHCR, whether it
25 was UNPROFOR. People heard a detonation, an explosion. They came around,
1 collected and picked up the injured, took them to the hospital. I don't
2 know a single person by name. Sometimes you live with some people next
3 door to them and you don't -- never learn their names.
4 Q. But you say here that several journalists also came to the spot.
5 A. Well, some came and took pictures. There were inspectors there,
6 compiling records and they found a piece of this bomb that hit my house.
7 They took it away with them.
8 Q. But look at the last sentence. "In fact, within ten minutes of
9 the first blast referred to above, six other shells fell within an area of
10 about 100 square metres."
11 A. I stand by this. After this big shell, none of those shells hit
12 the same building, but they rather went towards the police station. There
13 were five or six of them. Now, whether anyone was killed there, to tell
14 you the truth, I didn't dare venture out of my house.
15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have a number of documents that
16 I would like to present to the witness, and with that I would conclude my
18 Firstly, Your Honours, although we requested several translations,
19 we haven't received a single one to date. Actually, a few. But in any
20 case, of the hundreds and hundreds of documents that we have, we have not
21 been given translations.
22 Q. Let mow now show you a document signed by Fikret Prevljak, the
23 brigade commander concerning the incident of the 26th of May, 1995.
24 There's an important fact with is related to the evidence given by this
25 witness. This is DD00-0953. That's the BH republic document.
1 And since the witness doesn't have glasses, I think I should read
2 it out to him. Let me read this report to you. First, they talk about
3 the aggressor, and let me read it to you, what this commander, Fikret
4 Prevljak, reported about what he observed in the behaviour of the
5 aggressor, and he says as follows: "At 1838 they fired a modified aerial
6 bomb at Svrakino Selo from Butmir."
7 Can you tell me where that is?
8 A. With regard to any military reports, I can't give you any answers.
9 Q. But he doesn't mention at all in this report that anything came to
10 the area that you were in.
11 A. This is not my report. I cannot comment on military reports. I
12 made my own report and there's the record of what happened. I can only
13 talk about what I see as truth and about my record.
14 Q. Could it be that Svrakino Brdo was the place where you were?
15 A. No, no. You had a chance to see the photograph. There was no
16 hill there. It was one of the most beautiful locations in Sarajevo and I
17 couldn't have wished for a better place to live in.
18 Q. Everybody in the former Yugoslavia loved Sarajevo.
19 Now, let us look at what he says about "our forces" and he means
20 your forces. It reads: Our forces did not respond to artillery fire in
21 the last 24 hours, while members of the 115th Mountain Brigade returned
22 fire only on two occasions. Therefore, it shows that there was fire
23 coming from Sarajevo, although you claim otherwise. This was the report
24 dated the 26th of May, 1995.
25 A. Sir, let me tell you one thing. This is a military report and
1 what we saw before was a MUP report. I stand by the MUP report and my
2 report because they contain the truth. As far as this military report is
3 concerned, I cannot -- or, rather, I have no right to stand by it and
4 corroborate it.
5 Q. That is exactly the point how it is possible that there is
6 discrepancy between a report compiled by the BH army and the MUP? Can you
7 explain that.
8 MR. WAESPI: Yes, I think the witness has been clear. He was
9 stationed as a reserve policeman in this area, a part of Sarajevo, and how
10 can he possibly comment on what appears to be a brigade commander
11 reporting to the first command of -- to the command of the 1st Corps of
12 the ABiH reports about any ABiH response somewhere in Sarajevo? I think
13 that's an answer the witness cannot give.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I agree, it's not his discrepancy.
15 Proceed to another matter, Mr. Tapuskovic.
16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The essence of my question was
17 this document. I'm not insisting, but time will come for it to be
18 tendered. I didn't insist on it so much and on this particular aerial
19 bomb but rather on the fact that there was fire coming from Sarajevo, and
20 that what is this report claims. I would like the witness to tell me:
21 Q. Did you hear any shooting going out of Sarajevo? That was my
23 A. I would --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, witness, you're being asked to repeat
1 your answer for the benefit of the interpreter, and ours as well.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe I need to hear the question
3 first again.
4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. In the document that I just read out to you, it shows that BH army
6 units were responding, as they say, to the fire coming from the Serbian
7 side. Did you hear any fire from Sarajevo? That was my question.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi.
9 MR. WAESPI: Yes, I think the question itself is fine: Did you
10 hear any fire, you know, based on his knowledge and based on what we know
11 where he was standing. If it's confined to that issue, that's fine. But
12 putting, you know, comments from these documents to this witness and
13 asking him whether that's correct or not, that's why I objected a minute
14 ago, and I thought Your Honours ruled on that.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, the question is: Did you hear any fire
16 from Sarajevo? Witness, what's your answer to that?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer to that is, honestly
18 speaking, I wasn't on the front line. They were further away from me and
19 I have no idea, frankly speaking. The only thing I could hear was
20 shelling landing in our neighbourhoods. Otherwise, I didn't hear anything
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Since he said that he didn't hear
24 anything, then I am not allowed, I presume, to offer this for
25 identification, and I would like to do that.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi.
3 MR. WAESPI: Yes, we don't have an objection to it being
4 identified -- marked for identification. But before it's tendered, we
5 just need to have a translation.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it will be marked for identification,
7 pending translation.
8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this document will be marked for
10 identification as Exhibit D94.
11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have a document
12 here with me. It's an UNPROFOR report of 26 May 1995, and with your
13 leave, I would like to show it to the witness. It refers to Sector
14 Sarajevo, and I would like to hear if he is able to comment on that.
15 That's number DD00-0949. There's no translation of this document into
16 English, but I translated this passage.
17 Sector Sarajevo, page 1.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi.
19 MR. WAESPI: Yes. Just to make the record clear, the original of
20 this document is in English, and I understand that there is no translation
21 into B/C/S.
22 Just following on the previous document, we will do a draft
23 translation with our resources, so the Defence doesn't need to wait
24 until -- or initiate a double translation, so you're aware of it. And
25 once it's finished, we can forward it to you.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's helpful.
2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Let me read out to the witness only this portion referring to
4 Sector Sarajevo. "Item 2: The situation was tense with an increased
5 level of firing. Detonations were reported in the traditional hot spots."
6 And there's mention of a second air-strike.
7 My question is: Did he hear these detonations in his
8 neighbourhood as well as the detonations that took place on the opposite
9 side as a result of fire from the weapons belonging to the BH army? That
10 is my question.
11 A. I don't know. It seems that you are treating me as if I had been
12 a general in the army. I was just an ordinary policeman. Your question
13 is a matter for UNPROFOR and they are authorised to give you any
14 reasonable explanation. If they compiled this report, it's not my place
15 to comment on it.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Let's move on.
17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] What about this DD00-0949, the
18 UNPROFOR report, 26th of May? Can that be admitted as a Defence exhibit,
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is this the one that he says he knows nothing
21 about? No, we can't admit that, Mr. Tapuskovic.
22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I know. He says he doesn't
23 know. He says this. If it's an UNPROFOR report, he doesn't doubt it.
24 That's what he said. And this is an UNPROFOR report which says that there
25 was intense firing on that day, an increase in firing. And that seems
1 quite important in itself. He's not saying he doesn't know. He doesn't
2 know about this report, but the report says that there was an increase in
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's really a lawyer's point. He says here
5 that your question is a matter for, I presume, UNPROFOR, and they're
6 authorised to give you any reasonable explanation. "If they compiled this
7 report, it's not my place to comment on it." I think he's saying he
8 doesn't know anything about it. In his own words, he says he's not a
10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] But did he hear that there was an
11 increase in the firing on that day? That's what I'm wondering about and
12 that's my question.
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Tapuskovic, if I could clarify. I think the
14 general rule that the Chamber is trying to establish is that there has to
15 be some sort of relation between the witness and the document before you
16 can enter the document through that witness. In this case, it seems that
17 no relation can be established, so this is why the Chamber isn't willing
18 to admit this document through this witness. You may seek to introduce it
19 through another witness, but there is no relation in this case, so the
20 answer is no. Thank you.
21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I now understand fully, and I
22 will do my best in the future to comply with this properly. I take your
24 I would like to finish with another report. First, I'd like to
25 ask the witness:
1 Q. You said yesterday something about this occurring on the spot, the
2 first two shells not exploding. Is that what you said, sir?
3 A. Each of the shells exploded.
4 Q. Did I understand you correctly yesterday when you said that one
5 did not explode?
6 A. Sir, the shell that hit my house first impacted against the
7 tarmac. It ricochetted and smashed into my house, drilling a hole 2 by 2
8 metres large. And there was a piece of the shell that was left right
9 there on the ground. The inspectors arrived. They carried out an on-site
10 investigation and they took this fragment away to be submitted for
11 analysis by the police experts.
12 Q. What about the other shell? Did that one explode?
13 A. Which other one? There is only one that hit my house.
14 Q. Thank you. Let me just ask you this: I showed you that report
15 about the injured and the air bomb that fell the way you described; right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Among the injured there were about eight persons who were well
18 along, as you said. For example, Hatic Zaim.
19 A. I don't know that person.
20 Q. You don't know your own neighbour?
21 A. I don't know him. All the faces were familiar, but I couldn't put
22 a name to each of the faces.
23 Q. What about Muharem Begovic? Was he a BH army member, for example?
24 A. No clue.
25 Q. No further questions.
1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Thank
2 you, Witness.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Any re-examination?
4 MR. WAESPI: No, Mr. President, but I'd like to make a brief
5 comment about that UN document that we just discussed, or Your Honours
6 discussed with the Defence.
7 I agree that there was no foundation laid with this witness to
8 have it admitted, but in itself the document appears to be, you know, a UN
9 document, and we usually rely on these types of documents. So if that
10 goes in as kind of a self-propelled document which speaks for itself - it
11 just says what it says - related to the day one of our incidents occurred,
12 the 26th of May, 1995, we don't have an objection to come in through that
13 kind of different procedural door than by this witness.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll consider that and make a decision later.
15 Mr. Luinovic, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming
16 to the Tribunal to give it. You may now go.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you very much.
18 MR. WAESPI: If I could be excused very briefly, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
20 [The witness withdrew]
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Next witness.
22 MR. SACHDEVA: Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours. The
23 next witness is Mr. Jasarevic.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
2 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
3 WITNESS: ENES JASAREVIC
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.
6 And you may begin, Mr. Sachdeva.
7 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Examination by Mr. Sachdeva:
9 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
10 A. Good afternoon.
11 Q. Please state your full name; your place and date of birth.
12 A. Enes Jasarevic; 29 November 1958; Sarajevo.
13 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, may I lead the witness through his
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
16 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you.
17 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, is it correct that before the war you were an
19 A. Correct.
20 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, following your ruling yesterday, may
21 I please go into private session for this one question.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
23 [Private session]
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
21 MR. SACHDEVA:
22 Q. Now, Mr. Jasarevic, during the war, and in particular the period
23 1994 to 1995, did you work at a transformer station in Sarajevo as an
25 A. Yes. I was a maintenance technician for a high-voltage
1 transmitter that distributed electricity throughout the whole of Sarajevo.
2 Q. And in which district or where was that transformer station
4 A. It was near Novi Grad municipality, near the radio and television
6 Q. If I was to show you a map, would you be able to mark the location
7 on that map?
8 A. I hope so.
9 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, could I ask that 65 ter 02872 be
10 shown on the screen, please.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let it be shown.
12 MR. SACHDEVA:
13 Q. Witness, you'll soon see a map on your screen -- no, no, it's just
14 about to come up. Just a couple of seconds.
15 MR. SACHDEVA: Can we zoom the map, please. In particular, sort
16 of veering towards the left-hand side. Is it possible to zoom in one more
17 part, one more bit? Okay.
18 Q. Witness, are you able now to see where your transformer station
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. The court usher is going to hand you a marker. And before you
22 mark anything, just wait for my instructions.
23 So please mark with a circle where the transformer station was
24 that you worked in.
25 A. [Marks].
1 Q. And to the side, on the right-hand side, can you put the letter T,
3 A. [Marks].
4 Q. On this map, do you also see the TV building, the Bosnian
5 television building?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And can you mark that with the letters TV, please.
8 A. [Marks].
9 Q. Approximately how far was your transformer station from the TV
11 A. About 100 metres perhaps just over 100 metres, thereabouts.
12 Q. Okay. I'm just going to ask you a few questions about the
13 transformer station.
14 Just very, very briefly, what is it that the transformer -- what
15 was done there at the transformer building -- station?
16 A. You mean on that particular day or generally speaking?
17 Q. Generally speaking.
18 A. It's a transformer station. Employees worked there. That's where
19 the high voltage came that was then transformed into low voltage and then
20 distributed for the benefit of the population. We had our offices there.
21 Whenever any action on our part was needed in any part of town, we would
22 just go out.
23 Q. You said that the low voltage was distributed for the benefit of
24 the population. In which particular areas was this low voltage
25 distributed; do you know that?
1 A. For the most part, Novi Grad. Some of it went to Dobrinja --
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not understand the last
3 part of the witness's answer.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just repeat your answer, please.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From this transformer station we
6 mostly distributed to Novi Grad, Alipasino Polje, Dobrinja, and other
7 parts of town. I'm not sure how far. You couldn't distribute throughout
8 the city from this one transformer station. It only covered one part of
10 MR. SACHDEVA:
11 Q. Were there other -- well, in the period 1994/1995, were there
12 other transformer stations functioning in Sarajevo?
13 A. Yes. Should I name them?
14 Q. No, no, it's okay.
15 What can you say about the distribution of -- let's say the
16 frequency of electricity or energy distribution in the city throughout the
17 period in 1994/1995? Was it constant, was it intermittent?
18 A. No, there was no regularity. It would be evenly distributed
19 across Sarajevo. Some parts of Sarajevo were out of electricity and then
20 they had electricity again and they -- they all took turns like that and
21 that was all they had. Sometimes ducts were interrupted that crossed the
22 confrontation lines and certain areas would suffer power cuts. We covered
23 whatever we could. It's called power cuts, you know, sometimes you don't
24 have electricity for five or six hours at a time, that sort of thing. We
25 call it power cuts.
1 Q. And why were there power cuts or why were some parts of Sarajevo
2 without electricity? Do you know the reasons for that search?
3 A. Because Sarajevo does not have its own source of energy. We got
4 all of it through overhead lines, and once those broke down, there was
5 nothing left to distribute.
6 Q. And these overhead lines, you say once those broke down -- how did
7 they break down, or why did they break down? If you know.
8 A. On account of the fighting. This normally occurred along the
9 confrontation lines, the front lines. And then UNPROFOR would come and
10 get us. We would do the job and mend what we could often under dangerous
11 conditions since there was fighting going on, and sometimes we went out to
12 parts of Sarajevo where there was no fighting in progress.
13 Q. Moving now to the transformer station, you said there were other
14 colleagues that worked there. Who did you work with?
15 A. With my colleagues, my fellow electricians, the same people who
16 did the job before the war and throughout the war. But that was our job.
17 Q. Did you have a supervisor?
18 A. Yes, we did. We had a supervisor.
19 Q. And what was his name?
20 A. It was the late Sulejman Prasko.
21 Q. Do you remember the name of -- of any of your other colleagues?
22 A. Sure, I do. Specifically, Slato Salko, at least as far as this
23 incident is concerned.
24 Q. Now, you've just said now "this incident." When you say "this
25 incident," do you know firstly the date on which this incident took place?
1 And I'll get to the incident in a moment.
2 A. This occurred on the 24th of May, I think.
3 Q. In which year?
4 A. 1995.
5 Q. On that day, did you go to work at the transformer station?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What time did you get to work?
8 A. Sometime between 8.00 and 9.00.
9 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I actually want the witness sometime
10 in the examination to mark further points on this map. I just hope that
11 the image is not going to be lost if I leave it on there. I would
12 appreciate some guidance from the registrar.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is that so.
14 THE REGISTRAR: The best way of proceeding would to be save this
15 image and then we can add further markings on it after we assign an
16 exhibit number to it, if ...
17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: We can give it an exhibit number now.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this map will become Exhibit P300.
20 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Q. Witness, you said you got to work between sometime at 8.00 and
22 9.00. Now, when you reached work, that is, when you reached the
23 transformer station, did you notice or witness any fighting or military
24 activity in the vicinity of the station?
25 A. You mean when I came to work?
1 Q. Yes, once you arrived at the station.
2 A. There was no fighting nearby.
3 Q. And in the vicinity of your station, in the area where the station
4 was, there were any military, in other words, Bosnian government military
5 facilities present?
6 A. No military ones. There was the municipal hall in front of us,
7 the TV building, there was the waterworks across the way, behind us there
8 was the school building and some residential buildings.
9 Q. On that day when you got to the transformer station between 8.00
10 and 9.00, did you see any military personnel, that is soldiers, in the
11 vicinity of your station?
12 A. No.
13 Q. When you arrived at work, was there somewhere that you were
14 supposed to go that morning?
15 A. Yes. There was supposed to be a mission with UNPROFOR. They were
16 supposed to get us, pick us up with their APC and then we would go to
17 wherever we were supposed to go on a given day. We were supposed to go
18 somewhere or other, but they failed to show up and some of them from the
19 PTT, which is where they were billeted, phoned us to say there would be no
20 mission on that day so stayed there and there was nothing for to us do.
21 Q. I think you touched upon this earlier on in the examination, but
22 when you were to go with UNPROFOR, what was it that you were supposed to
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: This is a 92 ter witness.
25 MR. SACHDEVA: No, Mr. President. It's a live witness. But I
1 still intend to finish within the 35 or 30 minutes.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you please repeat the question?
3 MR. SACHDEVA:
4 Q. Yes, sure. You said that you were supposed to go on a mission
5 with UNPROFOR, and I believe you touched upon what you do with UNPROFOR
6 earlier on in the examination. But what was it that you were supposed to
7 do on that day with UNPROFOR?
8 A. One of the power lines had broken down. The one that supplied
9 electricity to Vucapato [phoen]. That one also ran across confrontation
10 lines. So whenever there was a breakage like that, we couldn't go on our
11 own. We couldn't cross the confrontation lines. We had to be escorted to
12 places like those by UNPROFOR. But the mission was cancelled on account
13 of the fighting, I suppose.
14 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, if I may suggest, this would be an
15 appropriate time in my examination for a break. I just note the time.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll break now for 20 minutes
17 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 4.07 p.m.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please continue.
20 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Q. Witness, we don't have much more time, so I'm going to try to be
22 as rapid as possible.
23 When you were -- you just said that UNPROFOR did not come and
24 therefore you were waiting around, had nothing to do. During the morning,
25 in other words, from the time of 9.00 till, let's say, 11.00 in the
1 morning, did you hear anything in particular, anything significant, at
2 that time?
3 A. Well, sometime, 10.00 or 11.00 - I cannot tell you precisely -
4 something flew over, but the sound was very unusual. We were frightened
5 because we had never heard anything similar before. It hit, but I don't
6 know exactly where. Some of us got frightened and went downstairs to
7 other rooms where there were cables and which offered some kind of
8 shelter. However, nothing happened after that and we continued our duty,
9 normally, that is, we were sitting around in our workplace but we didn't
10 hear anything after that.
11 Q. You said the sound was very unusual. Can you describe what the
12 sound -- describe the sound, please.
13 A. Well, how shall I explain it? At first it sounded like an
14 aeroplane, but it wasn't an aeroplane. It was unusual in that it was
15 nothing that we had heard before, although we heard many things before.
16 Q. You also said that: "It hit, but I don't know exactly where."
17 When I say "it hit," what do you mean by that?
18 A. We heard an explosion, a detonation. It was a projectile, but at
19 the time I didn't know what it was.
20 Q. You say you didn't know exactly where, but are you able to tell
21 the Court roughly where the explosion took place?
22 A. Since we were indoors, I think it flew over our heads and went on,
23 probably towards the TV building or behind it. I didn't know exactly. I
24 just know that it flew over.
25 Q. Did you hear the explosion?
1 A. Yes. We heard a kind of dull impact. It wasn't close enough to
2 hear it well.
3 Q. After that, you said that: "Nothing happened and we continued our
4 duty and we were sitting around our workplace." Did anything significant
5 occur after that period, on that day?
6 A. Yes. Because our working hours was coming to a close, we had
7 nothing to do, so we intended to leave and go home. Sometimes after 1.00
8 p.m. there was nothing for us to do. So we called our families on the
9 phone, because for me to reach my home I had to go to Dobrinja. So I
10 asked them in everything was quiet there for me to get home safely,
11 because everyone had to be -- had to follow what was going on, whether
12 there was any fighting, before they set off for home.
13 Q. Sorry to interrupt you. You said you spoke to your family on the
14 phone in Dobrinja and you asked them if everything was quiet there. What
15 did the family member tell you?
16 A. It was sometime around 1.00 p.m. They told me that it was quiet,
17 and then I told her that I would soon be coming home.
18 Q. So at that time, around 1.00, what did you and your other two
19 colleagues that you mentioned earlier, what did you do? Did you leave the
20 transformer station?
21 A. We started to go home. My colleague, Salko Slato, lived in
22 Mojmilo, so we covered part of the route together, while my foreman was
23 living in another part of the town. I went out, as did my foreman, in
24 front of the entrance. Since the other colleague who was supposed to
25 accompany me was not there, I stayed a while with my foreman.
1 While I was waiting for my colleague, there was a piece of earth
2 surface which was sowed with some vegetables and it was covered with a
3 plastic sheet. So he was weeding this little plot. I was standing next
4 to him, waiting for my other colleague to join me on our way home.
5 When he came downstairs, we went through the exit, said our
6 good-byes to Sulejman Prasko, the late Sulejman Prasko, who told us, "I'll
7 leave soon, just as soon as I finish weeding the plot."
8 When the two of us passed through the gate, and maybe we walked
9 some 10 metres or so, we heard an impact, and the consequences of that
10 impact are well known.
11 Q. When you say you heard an impact, what kind of -- well, what kind
12 of sound was that?
13 A. My colleague and I passed the gate and we heard something which I
14 said I believed was an aeroplane, and I said to him, "How come there are
15 planes flying?" We looked up. We didn't see any aeroplane; however, the
16 sound was coming closer and closer and becoming stronger and stronger.
17 Suddenly, I think I saw a dark object which hit a pylon, which was inside
18 the compound of the transformer station. There was a strong flash and I
19 fell on the ground. Whether I fell there or I was pushed by the blast, I
20 cannot tell you now. I fell on my stomach.
21 While I was lying on the ground, the pylon that had been hit by
22 the bomb started to collapse and I thought it was going to collapse on me.
23 However, the power line stopped it from falling on me.
24 Q. You said that you fell on your stomach after the flash. One
25 second, sorry. Were you injured by this explosion?
1 A. Yes, I was.
2 Q. If it's appropriate, would you be able to tell the Court what
3 happened to you?
4 A. When I fell down, then the pylon collapsed. I turned over on my
5 back and I noticed something on my right leg, and on my left leg as well.
6 I saw a hole in my blue jeans, trouser leg, and there was a kind of
7 contraction in my right arm. I tried to take off my jacket, my leather
8 jacket; however, I couldn't do that because I couldn't detach it from my
9 arm. A piece of shrapnel, which I later saw, hit me and attached the
10 sleeve of the leather jacket to my elbow.
11 Q. Did you -- on account of your injury, did you have to go to the
12 hospital after this incident?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. And what about your supervisor or, you said, foreman, Mr. Sulejman
15 Prasko? What happened to him?
16 A. Since he was on the inside of the fence and we were outside the
17 fence, I took off my jacket and kept it on my elbow. The colleague of
18 mine was slightly injured. We couldn't open the entrance gate, probably
19 due to an impact, so he tried to jump over the fence in order to see what
20 happened to the foreman. I also approached the fence and I saw Mr. Prasko
21 lying there. He was moving his mouth, which means that he was still
22 showing signs of life.
23 Somebody came from the direction of the television; I think it was
24 a woman a journalist. And then a blue -- a white car came along and
25 people asked whether there were any casualties. They wanted to put us in
1 this car and take us away, but we wanted to know what happened to him.
2 "Are you going to take him?" The man said, "Let us first take care of
3 you and somebody else will take care of him." They put us in the car and
4 took us to hospital.
5 Q. Now, you said earlier on, when I asked you about your supervisor,
6 you said "the late Sulejman Prasko." Do I take it from that answer that
7 he eventually succumbed and died as a result of this incident?
8 A. Yes, he did. His lips were moving; that's what I saw. But
9 somebody told me that he was already dead.
10 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I'd like to show some photographs to
11 the witness. Can 65 ter --
12 JUDGE MINDUA: One minute, just one minute.
13 [Interpretation] While we still have this map on the screen, could
14 the witness show us where the first and the second shell or bomb came
15 from? We know that the witness was in the transformer station. He said
16 that the bomb arrived from the direction of Lukavica. Could he show this
17 to us on the map, for the sake of clarity?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is rather small. This is the
19 place where we heard the sound. The sound was coming, I think at least,
20 from Mojmilo hill, from that side. I may try to mark it on the map.
21 Do you have any other map, because I really cannot ...
22 JUDGE MINDUA: Do we have another map?
23 MR. SACHDEVA: I understand that we have. Perhaps it can be
24 zoomed in a bit more.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. The court deputy is going to zoom in, but
3 we will lose the mountains, he says, but -- the markings, the markings,
4 but they've already been saved.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since this is where I was standing,
6 roughly speaking, I believe that this is how it was.
7 JUDGE MINDUA: Thank you.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, proceed.
9 MR. SACHDEVA:
10 Q. Witness, can I just obtain a clarification for the benefit of the
11 Court. The direction that you have just drawn here, does that relate to
12 the projectile that you were injured from and your supervisor was killed,
13 or does it relate to the sound that you heard in the morning at around
15 A. This relates to this one, because in the morning, we were indoors
16 and I couldn't specifically say which direction it came from. This is the
17 second projectile, although this is not very accurate.
18 Q. So "the second projectile," meaning the one that you were injured
20 A. Yes, that's the one.
21 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I'm happy to have this map tendered
22 into evidence.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.
24 THE REGISTRAR: This will become Exhibit P301, Your Honours.
25 MR. SACHDEVA: May I now have the photographs brought up, and they
1 are 65 ter 00079.
2 Mr. President, pursuant to your ruling, I believe that I am over
3 the 30 minutes assigned for my examination. I seek your leave to be
4 another seven -- five to ten minutes.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Yes, we will allow that.
6 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Q. Witness, do you see some photographs on the screen there?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. And are those photographs of the pylon that you spoke about
10 earlier from your transformer station?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. SACHDEVA: May we move to the next page, please.
13 Q. Similarly, are those photographs from your transformer station
14 showing the pylon that had been knocked down by the projectile?
15 A. Yes, that's the photographs.
16 MR. SACHDEVA: And the next page, please.
17 Q. Again, Mr. Witness, do these photographs depict your transformer
18 station and the pylon?
19 A. Yes, they do.
20 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I want to show the witness a picture
21 of a deceased person and I would like to do this just for a second. I
22 understand that it's not pleasurable viewing, but in light of the line the
23 Defence have taken, I submit that, for evidentiary purposes, this would be
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Could you inform us, please, who took those
2 MR. SACHDEVA: These photographs come from the investigation file
3 and were taken by the police.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, you may show it.
6 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, you want to say something?
8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Since my colleague Sachdeva said
9 what he said, I would like to hear from him to which particular part of
10 our Defence case he was referring to. Since he told the Chamber that we
11 have adopted a certain line of defence, I would like him to explain what
12 he meant in order for to us take due care in the future.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't consider that to be necessary. I'll
14 ignore it and just consider that Mr. Sachdeva would like to show this
15 photograph, and I have allowed him to show it. I attach no weight to the
16 other part of the statement.
17 We're ready to see it.
18 MR. SACHDEVA: May we move to -- I believe it's page 8 of this
19 batch. If I could just give you the ERN number. It's 00375141. That's
20 the one.
21 Q. Witness, do you see the bottom photograph? Do you see a plan
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. Who is that man?
25 A. That's the late Sulejman Prasko.
1 MR. SACHDEVA: The picture can be removed.
2 And, Mr. President, I'd like to tender these photographs into
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, these pictures, photographs, will
6 become Exhibit P302.
7 MR. SACHDEVA: May I now have on the screen 65 ter number 03010.
8 Q. Witness, in a moment you will see another photograph, and I'm
9 going to ask you one or two questions.
10 Do you see a photograph there on the screen?
11 A. I do.
12 Q. And what is that a photograph of?
13 A. Are you referring to the whole photograph, or do you want me to
14 show you just the transformer station?
15 Q. Well, yes, why don't you take the marker and put a T by the
16 transformer station.
17 A. [Marks].
18 Q. And do you see the TV building in that photograph?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. And can you mark that with the letters TV, please.
21 A. [Marks].
22 Q. And where you've put the T for the transformer station, do you see
23 the two pylons?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. And are you able to mark the spot where the explosion took place
1 and the pylon that was hit by the explosion? Just mark that with a cross,
3 A. [Marks].
4 Q. And the pylon that you are referring to, is that the one, if
5 looking at the picture, on the left-hand side or the right-hand side?
6 A. I think it's on the left-hand side, closer to me.
7 Q. Okay. Thank you.
8 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I tender that into evidence.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.
10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P303, Your Honour.
11 MR. SACHDEVA:
12 Q. Lastly, Witness, just a couple of final questions. You said to
13 the Court that you lived in Dobrinja. During the period 1994/1995, was
14 living in Dobrinja, was it -- was it a safe or a dangerous place?
15 A. It was very dangerous.
16 Q. And why was it dangerous?
17 A. For the most part, Dobrinja was surrounded on all sides. There
18 was no communication with the town itself. There was a little
19 communication, but it was quite dangerous to head for the centre. Could
20 you have been hit from just about anywhere. It was a place where life was
21 very dangerous.
22 Q. You say you could have been hit from just about anywhere. Was
23 Dobrinja subjected to sniping and shelling during the period 1994/1995?
24 A. Yes, from the beginning of the war.
25 Q. And just focussing on sniping, again during the period 1994 to
1 1995, was there a particular location or a place that was particularly
2 dangerous or subjected, on a frequent basis, to sniping?
3 A. That place connected Dobrinja with the rest of the town. That was
4 the only road, actually. You had to drive across and drive very fast.
5 Whoever tried walking, this always proved a risky enterprise. There was
6 non-stop firing. The road was under fire throughout.
7 Q. Did the inhabitants assign a particular name or a phrase for that
8 road that you talk about?
9 A. Yes. They called it the Road of Death; that's what they called
10 it. It was quite dangerous. You had to drive across very fast. I even
11 tried cycling across once, but it was a very risky thing to do.
12 Q. And do you know where the sniping came from?
13 A. From the direction of Nedzarici, which is a neighbourhood that at
14 the time was under the control of the other side.
15 Q. When you say "other side," who exactly do you mean?
16 A. I mean the Serb forces.
17 Q. Now I'm just going to lastly ask you to mark the place where you
18 lived and the Road of Death, as you have stated.
19 MR. SACHDEVA: Could we have the map 02872 brought up on the
20 screen, please.
21 Did I ask for this photograph to be tendered already?
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admitted it.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: 303.
24 MR. SACHDEVA: I did. I'm grateful, thank you.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it's already admitted.
1 MR. SACHDEVA:
2 Q. Just waiting for the map, Witness, and then we're finished, at
3 least I'm finished.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me. Could I please ask to have the 65 ter
5 number of the map repeated.
6 MR. SACHDEVA: 02872.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you very much.
8 MR. SACHDEVA: And could I have the bottom left-hand part zoomed
9 up. Thank you.
10 Q. Witness, do you see Dobrinja there on the map, on your screen?
11 A. I do.
12 Q. Are you able to mark the location of the building that you lived
13 in, firstly?
14 A. That's my building.
15 Q. Can you put the letter A just beside that, please.
16 A. [Marks].
17 Q. Do you see on the map the Road of Death that you described
18 earlier; and if you do, please mark it.
19 A. I see it.
20 Q. Can you mark that with the letter B, please.
21 A. [Marks].
22 Q. And from that place, the Road of Death, can you, with the use of
23 arrows, indicate the direction from which the sniper fire came from.
24 A. Sure. As far as this area. Later, the far end of this road
25 became a little safer because it was behind the actual buildings, and
1 that's why it became saver.
2 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I tender that into evidence.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
4 THE REGISTRAR: This picture will become Exhibit P304, Your
6 MR. SACHDEVA: And that is the examination-in-chief. I'm grateful
7 for the extra time.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
9 Mr. Tapuskovic.
10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, I represent Dragomir Milosevic. I'm
13 Tapuskovic, attorney-at-law from Belgrade.
14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] However, Your Honours, it wasn't
15 until a while ago that I noticed that this is really something I need to
16 raise with the OTP.
17 Mr. Sachdeva, how many statements did the injured party make?
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you addressing -- who are you addressing?
19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's you that I'm
20 addressing. I have two statements here provided by the witness; one dated
21 the 10th of March, 1997; the other dated the 19th of May, 2006. The
22 latest statement was amended by the previous statement, the earlier
23 statement. It's only now that I have noticed. I have this one dated the
24 19th of May, 2006 and I have the one dated the 10th of March, 1997, and
25 the witness, in his earlier statement, is making amendments to his later
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: The procedure that we have here requires you to
3 cross-examine the witness and not to address the Prosecutor. Any matters
4 that you have must be cleared up in cross-examination. If that is not
5 possible, then we will look at some other procedure. But we don't follow
6 a practice where counsel address another counsel. It is for the witness
7 to say how many statements he made, not Mr. Sachdeva.
8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] That's all right, Your Honours.
9 I was just trying to gain some time. But it's fine, all the same.
10 Q. Witness, you made two statements to the OTP, didn't you? One is
11 dated the 10th of March, 1997 and the other, the 19th of April, 2006. Is
12 that right, Witness?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, the statement dated the 19th of May, 2006, you make
15 amendments there to some things that you said back in 1997. Is there any
16 way you can possibly explain this, Witness? For example, the question
17 about the first three months of the war, I was in the army, you say, in
18 1997, and then you amend this in the 19th of May, 2006 statement.
19 A. Yes, simply because it was mistranslated at the time. I just
20 happened to notice that. I wasn't in the army.
21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] What I'm facing is a truly
22 impossible situation. I have to use these two statements and I can't even
23 explain this. I can start, but I really don't know what I'm supposed to
24 do. I don't even know how I'm supposed to start. I have no idea. In
25 2006, he amends something that he said in 2007. I'm not sure how I should
1 start this cross-examination. I don't think I'm able to, to be quite
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's a matter for you, Mr. Tapuskovic. I can't
4 understand why you're not able to cross-examine.
5 Mr. Sachdeva.
6 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I just see on the transcript, and
7 also I heard in the translation, that counsel is saying that in 2006 he
8 amends something he said in 2007, and I understand that counsel is saying
9 that in 2006 he amends something that he said in 1997. Is that the -- I
10 don't know if that's the source of confusion. But in any case, these are
11 questions to be put to the witness.
12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will just press
13 on. I will just press on. This appears to be my own error.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Was it 2007 or 1997?
15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters confirm that counsel said
16 2007. The interpretation was accurate. Thank you.
17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I was off the mark by about ten
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Could have been worse.
20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies. My apologies.
21 That can only be explained by my age and then, perhaps, excused.
22 Q. I'll start with your first statement, sir, the 10th of March.
23 Before that, however, I'd like to ask you a number of things about issues
24 that were raised in chief.
25 You said at the outset somewhere - and this is pages 32 and 33,
1 line 24 of your evidence today - you said that the overhead lines
2 sometimes broke down and there would be black outs because of the fighting
3 along the front line, and then UNPROFOR would take you to those places;
5 A. Yes, that's right. It happened not only along the front lines,
6 but the point was we couldn't go unescorted to those places to fix those
8 Q. When you say "because of the fighting along the front line," what
9 exactly do you mean? Do you mean both of the warring parties firing at
10 one another under given circumstances and then problems like these would
12 A. That's not what I said. Most of the breakdowns happened on our
13 side or along the front line itself. We didn't cause our own power lines
14 to break down.
15 Q. Mind you, you said because of the fighting along the front line.
16 You made no distinction whatsoever as to what sort of fighting you were
17 referring to. Firing by whom? Firing by both sides? Mutual firing or
18 what? That's what I'm asking you. And I'm only asking you in relation to
19 the time that General Milosevic spent in his position from the 10th of
20 August, 1994 until the end of the war.
21 A. I wasn't there when it happened. It was difficult for me to
22 ascertain who was firing and where the firing was coming from. When we
23 arrived, the firing had already been over, as a rule. It was peaceful
24 enough for us to proceed with our job.
25 Q. What about the time we're talking about, especially summer of
1 1995? Was there not firing from both sides, by both warring parties? Yes
2 or no?
3 A. What do you mean, "firing from both sides"?
4 Q. I mean fire being opened at the same time by both the BH army and
5 the army of Republika Srpska.
6 A. There is no way I can know about the army, whether they were
7 firing or not. I know where I was fired at from.
8 Q. I'm particularly interested in the 24th of May, 1995. I'm about
9 to show you something that you said. But before I do that, can you please
10 confirm that on the day in question there was a fierce of exchange of fire
11 from both sides?
12 A. What exactly do you mean by "fierce," "fierce firing"?
13 Q. We'll come to that later.
14 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes, Mr. President. Also, fierce exchange of fire
15 from both sides? Where in Sarajevo? Which part of the city. It's, in my
16 view -- in my submission, the question is vague.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Reformulate the question; make it more precise.
18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, yes, that's true.
19 You're quite right and so is Mr. Sachdeva. But I'll come to that later.
20 I'll need to return to that later, to keep myself from wasting any of my
21 precious time and your precious time.
22 Q. I'm asking the witness this because, above all, there is one thing
23 that I'm asking the witness: I'm not sure that I understand this
24 correctly. The last time, or in the beginning, you said, didn't you,
25 there were no offensive operations, no offensive was launched on that day,
1 on the day in question.
2 A. Offensive operations by whom?
3 Q. The BH army.
4 A. How on earth could I know that?
5 Q. Did you hear on that day any firing, firing by weapons positioned
6 in BH army-controlled territory in Sarajevo?
7 A. I heard no such thing.
8 Q. You heard no such thing. That's all right.
9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will need to show
10 this witness a document. It's a BH army document in relation to that
11 day. This document was signed by the commander of the 1st Corps, General
12 Vahid Karavelic, about the firing from Sarajevo itself. This is
13 DD00-0976. Can the document please be shown to the witness.
14 Q. I will read a single paragraph from this document. The first
15 thing addressed here is operations by the aggressor along the whole front,
16 the army of Republika Srpska, and then there is a paragraph that describes
17 operations conducted on that day, the 24th of May, by the BH army from
18 Sarajevo itself.
19 A. Am I supposed to read this?
20 Q. Yes, please, if you could go to page 2. Page 2, paragraph 1.
21 Page 2.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.
23 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, might I just ask if there is a
24 translation available?
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is there a translation for this?
1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No. It has been submitted for
3 Q. Just this first paragraph, all the way to the very end, please.
4 Can you please read it outloud.
5 A. Me?
6 Q. I can do it for you, if you like.
7 A. I prefer it if you did that for me.
8 Q. All right.
9 "All units within the 12th Division are at full combat-readiness.
10 The units under attack by the aggressor throughout the day are successful
11 in fighting. However, by the time this report was written, the aggressor
12 had succeeded in temporarily taking trenches number 7 and 9. In order to
13 win these trenches back, to take them back, fresh forces have been
14 introduced and fighting is afoot. We returned the aggressor's fire with
15 whatever artillery we had in terms of firing positions and in terms of
16 preventing infantry attacks. Our present information indicates that in
17 the course of fighting, one of our fighters was killed and five were
18 slightly wounded in the 115 Mountain Brigade; four were slightly wounded
19 by detonations in the 105 Mountain Brigade; one was seriously wounded and
20 two were slightly wounded in the 1555 Mountain Brigade. No loss in terms
21 of MTS, but the expenditure of ammunition was considerable."
22 Therefore, according to this report, signed by Vahid Karavelic,
23 the commander, there was firing throughout that day. Did you ever hear
24 about this at all, or not?
25 A. No, I never heard about this.
1 Q. This operation that lasted all day on the 24th of May, which is
2 the date of this report, you say that you never heard anything in the
3 place where you were on that day.
4 A. I don't know whose operations you're referring to. Listen, I'm
5 not a military expert. The only thing I can tell you is what I
6 experienced on that day, and that is the area surrounding the transformer
7 station, the television building, et cetera.
8 Q. I'm not asking you whether you took part in the operation but
9 whether you heard this constant fire by the BH army from Sarajevo. Did
10 you hear that?
11 A. No, not from Sarajevo.
12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness said
13 that he didn't hear it, but I would kindly ask for this document to be
14 marked for identification, because it's being compiled by the general who
15 was in charge of this combat operation. There was shooting all day long;
16 enormous quantities of ammunition and weapons were used on that day.
17 Artillery was involved as well as were other weapons. The witness said
18 no, but I believe that this deserves merit to be entered, because it
19 refers to this specific date and that is the 24th of May.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.
21 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, the witness said within the area of
22 the transformer station - and again in answer to counsel's question -
23 within the area of the transformer station and the TV tower, that he
24 didn't hear any military activity. I am not fully versed with the area of
25 responsibility of Division 12 or trenches 7 and 9, but there has to be
1 some specificity as to the area which this fighting focuses on; otherwise,
2 well, it's, in my submission, impossible for the witness to answer, which,
3 indeed, he has done so.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: I thought you were going to address us on the
5 question of whether it should be marked for identification.
6 MR. SACHDEVA: I mean, I have -- the Prosecution has no objection
7 to that. I don't, in my submission, submit that it should be entered into
8 evidence. Of course, we are calling General Karavelic as a witness in
9 this case and, in my submission, this would more appropriately be put to
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll mark it for identification.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, it will be marked for identification
14 as Exhibit D95.
15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, at this point in
16 time, I think it's my duty to tell you something. I made both a written
17 and oral request to the Prosecution to submit to me, according to the
18 rules, all the documents that they have relating to the operations carried
19 out by the BH army. I haven't received any documents to this date. I
20 know that everything has been scanned and that they have these documents
21 available, but to this date they haven't complied with my request in
22 supplying me with a single document. This document is one that I obtained
23 myself, and I think it's my duty to draw your attention to this fact; that
24 I still haven't received any of the documents that I requested both orally
25 and in writing. However, this could be discussed on some other occasion.
1 The only thing I would like to say is that this is an unfair practice.
2 Now let me proceed.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, if you hadn't said that, I think the
4 Prosecutor would have let it lie.
5 What do you want to say, Mr. Sachdeva?
6 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, in response to that, all materials
7 that are disclosable under Rule 66(B) and 68, it is my understanding, have
8 been disclosed. Materials that relate to the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina
9 and, in particular, to the 1st Corps that very have in-house have been
10 disclosed. I'm not sure whether counsel is talking about materials that
11 he obtained at the archives in Sarajevo, archives where we -- I mean, we
12 went through the archives in Banja Luka and we received materials from
13 those archives and they have been disclosed to the Defence. I don't know
14 if he is talking about the archives in Sarajevo.
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: But has the Prosecutor received the materials
16 from -- has the Prosecutor received any materials from the archives in
18 MR. SACHDEVA: Recently, not to my knowledge. And the ones that
19 we have in-house have been disclosed.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well.
21 Mr. Tapuskovic, if you want to follow this up with a motion, then
22 you may do so and be more specific. In the meantime, let us move on.
23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Of course, let us not waste
24 time. This can all be explained in writing. There is no need for us to
25 dwell on it any further.
1 Q. The place where this incident happened that you witnessed, how far
2 is it from Mojmilo hill?
3 A. Do you mean as the crow flies?
4 Q. Yeah, you may put it like that, because we are talking about
6 A. Believe me, I can't tell you exactly. Mojmilo hill is not one
7 point. Therefore, I cannot tell you how many metres it was from this
8 place. There's a street that runs there as well. I cannot be precise. I
9 can give you some figure off the top of my head, but that would not be an
10 accurate one.
11 Q. Was it at the foot of Mojmilo hill?
12 A. What do you mean?
13 Q. Was it close to the foot of the hill?
14 A. Mojmilo is on the other side.
15 Q. You mean immediately beyond the road?
16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the answer.
17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. How long is the ridge on Mojmilo hill?
19 A. Believe me, I don't know. Whichever figure I tell you will not be
21 Q. In view of your profession and your fieldwork, when these pylons
22 were knocked down, you went to repair them. Who was holding these
23 positions on top of Mojmilo hill, along the whole ridge, at the time when
24 you went to do this repair work?
25 A. I never went up there. This pylon was torn down a long time ago,
1 connecting Lukavica, in 1990-something. I don't know. I never went up
3 Q. Did you ever go to fix overhead lines on Zuc mountain?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. Whose positions were on Mount Zuc?
6 A. It was a hill and part of it was held by our side and the other
7 side was held by the other side. And the overhead line runs over the
8 demarcation line between them.
9 Q. The Serbian positions were at the foot of the hill on the other
11 A. There was several overhead lines; one was running from Vogosca and
12 the other from Zreljevo. So one had to go across Vogosca and those
13 hills. But I don't know who exactly was where. I didn't have time to
14 look around. We had to do our job as quickly as possible and move away.
15 Q. I was not asking you about overhead lines. I asked you about the
16 foot of Zuc hill. The Serbian positions were at the foot of this hill on
17 the other side.
18 A. I don't know exactly where their positions were. We never paid
19 much attention.
20 Q. But one could -- the BH army had full control over Sarajevo from
22 A. Are you asking me to answer to that statement? I know nothing
23 about military. I don't know who was in control of what. So, therefore,
24 I cannot give you any answer. You should ask someone else.
25 Q. Let me rephrase the question. From Zuc hill, did one have full
1 visual control of Sarajevo by anyone standing on the top of this hill?
2 A. Well, there were lots of hills there. There was not only one
3 hill. And who -- under whose control they were at that time, I don't
5 Q. Yes, there were lots of hills. There was Hum as well.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Who was in control of those areas?
8 A. Listen, you're asking me too much about control and I can't tell
9 you anything. These were military affairs. I really don't know. I was
10 doing my job and that was all, and I was focussed on my job. I knew
11 nothing about who was controlling which area.
12 Q. Very well. Let's move on now to the statement.
13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
14 on the screen document DD00-957. That's the statement dated the 10th of
15 March, 1997.
16 Q. In that connection, I would like to ask you a few questions.
17 First of all, is this your statement?
18 A. There is no statement. This is just details.
19 Q. There's your signature in the right-hand corner.
20 A. Yes, there is.
21 Q. Is that your signature?
22 A. Yes, it is.
23 Q. Let's move on to page 2. The first sentence in the second
24 passage: "For the first three months of the war I was in the army."
25 Is that correct?
1 A. No, it's wrong. There was no army at that time.
2 Q. So that means that this is not true?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. After that, you had a work obligation because of your profession;
5 is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. This work obligation, did that imply for certain purposes of the
8 army, the needs of the army?
9 A. No, that's not what it meant.
10 Q. In the next paragraph, you say: "All the time I was involved in
11 repairing power lines mainly between Zuc and Vogosca. I often had to work
12 between the confrontation lines, when the lines were damaged during the
14 Is that correct?
15 A. Well, yes, it's correct. It happened often, and mainly that's how
16 it was, because the only power supply was coming from that direction.
17 Q. So if there was fighting, you have to have two parties involved;
18 is that correct, or not?
19 A. Probably so, but as I told you, I cannot tell you where fighting
20 took place. We were just called to go out and we couldn't be able to say
21 anything before we reached the spot.
22 Q. You also say that it was the first time you ever heard about these
23 air bombs, and then at the end of this passage you said: "I had a lot of
24 experience with other ammunition."
25 A. That is also not correct. I don't know how it happened to be in
1 my statement, whether it was due to mistranslation or whatever. I can
2 only say that we had experience in hearing all kinds of projectiles.
3 However, I wasn't a military expert in order to make this qualification.
4 I was just speaking based on my personal experience. Even children knew
5 these things.
6 Q. So we may conclude that this is not true, what you said earlier?
7 A. You're referring to this?
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. No, I'm not an expert; therefore, I don't know.
10 Q. You went on to say: "I live in Dobrinja, and Dobrinja was
11 fiercely shelled during the war."
12 Is that correct.
13 A. Yes, it's correct.
14 Q. Is it also true that the demarcation line ran through the midst of
15 Dobrinja, because the front line ran through Dobrinja itself?
16 A. There's still part of this line, because it -- in part, it
17 coincided with the road. And this line still exists, not directly, but
18 this part is under the control of the Serbian side.
19 Q. During the war, especially in the period that we are discussing
20 here, was there exchange of fire in the town itself along the demarcation
22 A. Are you referring to Dobrinja or the town?
23 Q. I'm referring to Dobrinja.
24 A. My experience is that my flat was fired upon, but I can't tell you
25 where these shots were coming. I would have to go out to the front line.
1 And also, if it came from the other side, I wouldn't be able to say from
2 which side it came.
3 Q. You mentioned Nedzarici and you said that shots were coming from
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. You do know that Nedzarici was surrounded on all sides by Dobrinja
7 and other parts of Sarajevo, like a ghetto, surrounded by the BH army?
8 A. You mean that it was surrounded?
9 Q. Yes. I have no time now to show this on a map. They were
10 surrounded on all three sides. It was like a ghetto.
11 A. If it's on just three sides, then they are not surrounded, are
12 they, because there is always the fourth side, isn't there? They had a
13 link to Ilidza and everything else.
14 Q. Yes, yes, but there was only this bottleneck that they could get
15 through, wasn't there?
16 A. I don't know about that.
17 Q. Do you know that at Dobrinja where you lived, there were two
18 entrances to the tunnel that ran under the airport at the time; right?
19 A. I heard about that.
20 Q. Did you ever take that tunnel, given your job to repair the
21 overhead lines at Igman?
22 A. There are no overhead lines at Igman.
23 Q. What about anywhere else outside Sarajevo?
24 A. For the most part, we had organised missions. They were our
25 escort. We would cross Ilidza on the way there.
1 Q. You never took that tunnel, then, did you?
2 A. No, I don't think so.
3 Q. In one paragraph further down the page, you say: "On the 24th of
4 May, 1995 I was working at the transformer station, which was also our
6 All right, sir. You say "which was also our headquarters." Whose
7 headquarters? Is this is word that is used in reference to anything that
8 it not a military unit?
9 A. I just amended this sheet. I meant where we went to, where our
10 work was, our headquarters. Everybody knows what "headquarters" means,
11 although it could be taken to mean that, too. Headquarters. But it's not
12 like headquarters; it's just, you know, like a place that we went to.
13 Q. It can be used for sports, too, can't it?
14 A. Of course it can.
15 Q. But I'm putting it to you that this was a military headquarters
16 and that it was a legitimate target.
17 A. The transformer station? Is that what you mean?
18 Q. I mean the headquarters that was there.
19 A. No headquarters at all there. None at all. It was just a
20 transformer station with people working there, not wearing uniforms or
21 anything. We just had our kit, our tools, on us and that was that.
22 That's absolutely out of the question.
23 Q. What you're really saying is that it was misrecorded; you never
24 said that, headquarters.
25 A. That's just what I'm saying and that's why I drew everybody's
1 attention to this statement. It says "headquarters." Headquarters can
2 mean all sorts of things. You probably have in mind a military
3 headquarters, but that is out of the question. I am positive about that.
4 There was no such thing there.
5 Q. That's precisely what I'm putting to you, Witness. That is where
6 a military unit was headquartered that was in the area.
7 A. No way.
8 Q. Can you look at the next sentence, please, after this one about
9 the headquarters. "On that day we were supposed to go to Vogosca, but we
10 couldn't because of the fierce shelling in the area."
11 A. So what do you want to know about that?
12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I think Mr. Sachdeva wants to say
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Sachdeva.
15 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, it's a minor clarification but I
16 submit it's very important. In the English version of the statement, it
17 says: "That day we were supposed to go to Vogosca. We did not go due to
18 the heavy shelling in that area" and not "the area." Just so there's no
19 confusion as to what area is being spoken about. I don't know if it's the
20 same in the B/C/S version.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me just ask the interpreter to look at the
23 text in B/C/S and tell us what it says.
24 THE INTERPRETER: "In that area."
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: "In that area," yes. Thanks.
1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. What sort of shelling are you talking about there, Witness?
3 A. It's not me talking about it. There's a mission, an organised
4 one, and then it's UNPROFOR that has to give the go-ahead. And then we're
5 off and they say we can't go for this or that reason; it's not safe. And
6 then we just don't go. That's all.
7 Q. You make no reference to UNPROFOR. They weren't there at all.
8 A. What exactly happened, I really can't -- their headquarters, that
9 was the PTT building.
10 Q. Are you trying to say that UNPROFOR was there the moment the air
11 bomb landed?
12 A. No, no, no. That's not what I'm saying. I'm talking about the
13 missions that made our job possible, that secured our work somewhere.
14 Q. Fine, then. "At about 10.00 in the morning, an air bomb flew over
15 our heads and fell somewhere." That's what it says; right?
16 A. Where does it say that?
17 Q. Just after the shelling.
18 A. I think I amended that, too. There was no way I could have known
19 at the time that this was an air bomb. I said it was something; I didn't
20 say it was an air bomb. There is no way I could have known.
21 Q. Wait a minute, wait a minute. I'm quoting you. "Around 10.00
22 a.m. an air bomb flew over us." I'm asking you: Before it flew over you,
23 you had never seen the air bomb, had you?
24 A. No.
25 Q. So you don't know where the bomb had come in from, do you?
1 A. No, I don't. It came from the same direction, but I was inside a
2 building; therefore, I can't say exactly.
3 Q. What about this other one? You say that it flew over Mojmilo.
4 A. From the direction of, or something to that effect. It was by the
5 sounds that we -- and we were watching. We were outside.
6 Q. Can we say, therefore, that you didn't see that one either? You
7 just heard -- felt the sound.
8 A. Yeah. It was like the sound of an aeroplane, and we tried to see
9 what it was and then it came closer. It got dark. There was this flash
10 before our eyes nearly as it reached us. And --
11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't understand the final part
12 of the witness's answer.
13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] DD00-0957, Your Honours, can this
14 please be admitted as a Defence exhibit.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: The interpreter didn't understand the last part
16 of the witness's answer.
17 So I'm going to ask you to repeat it, Witness.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please speak one at a time to
19 ensure an accurate interpretation. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a second. The interpreters want you to
21 speak one at a time. The sentence that we are concerned with, Witness,
22 I'll just read it to you. You said: "It got dark. There was the flash
23 before our eyes nearly as it reached us. And ..." That's where the
24 interpreters lost you.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember what I said, can
1 I? That's it. That sounds very much like it. If the gentleman can
2 perhaps repeat the question, I have no problem answering the same question
4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. The essence of my question --
6 A. The other shell; right?
7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note: Could the speakers please be
8 asked again to speak one at a time. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: I need to ask you again: You have overlapping.
10 It's a lack of discipline, a lack of rigour. Speak one at a time. Ask
11 the question -- repeat the question, Mr. Tapuskovic.
12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The other air bomb, he only heard
13 the sound. He can't tell us where it came from, can he?
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can you tell us where the bomb came from?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The bomb came from the direction of
16 Mojmilo. That is precisely because we heard it, we watched it, and
17 something dark hit that place and then there was this flash. And by that
18 time I was on the ground. We were standing, the two of us, watching in
19 that direction. Well, you can't ... can you?
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: And how are you able to say that the bomb came
21 from the direction of Mojmilo?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because we were standing. At first
23 we thought it was an aeroplane, and I thought that, too. So we looked
24 around to see the direction from which this plane was moving. However, it
25 proved to be no plane at all. We looked, didn't we?
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: On that note, we'll stop and take the break.
2 --- Recess taken at 5.35 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 5.57 p.m.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please continue, Mr. Tapuskovic.
5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there was a lot of
6 confusion before the break and I need to go back to my last question.
7 The 10th of March, 1997 statement that we have in front of us,
8 page 2, I would like to read that back to the witness and then I expect
9 him to answer. It's about this other bomb.
10 Q. Witness, you explained about the first bomb. And then if you
11 could please look - it's halfway down the page - I will read slowly to you
12 all of it.
13 "The second bomb that injured me arrived after 2.00 p.m. I heard
14 this one also coming from the same direction. My foreman, a colleague,
15 and I left the building at that moment because I want to go home. Because
16 it was quiet at the moment, we left. As soon as I left the gate with my
17 colleague, I heard the sound of what I thought was a plane. It made the
18 same sound. We heard it because we were already going uphill. We
19 stopped, because we couldn't see the plane. Then we saw something black
20 falling in front of us."
21 So my question: You heard the sound, I'm putting to you that you
22 heard a sound, as you explain here, but you saw nothing, and you only saw
23 something once something black landed in front of you. Is that how it
24 was, Witness?
25 A. Yes, we saw something land in front of us.
1 Q. But prior to that, you had seen nothing at all, except for hearing
2 that sound which, to you, was reminiscent of the sort of a sound that the
3 plane makes; right?
4 A. Yes, but that was before that and we thought it was a plane. The
5 sound was coming closer and we just looked in that direction.
6 Q. Based on this, however, this thing you saw flying through the area
7 and made the sound that you heard, you didn't actually see it before it
8 landed in front of you, did you?
9 A. That's right.
10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can DD00-0957 be admitted as a
11 Defence exhibit. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the statement will become Exhibit
15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Just one thing, Witness. Can you answer this: You said "up the
17 hill." Where exactly did you mean?
18 A. It's a road going up past the transformer station from the TV
19 building. It forks off; one goes to Svrakino Selo and the other the road
20 goes towards Alipasino Polje.
21 Q. Alipasino Polje is a valley; right? It's something that you
22 said. You went up.
23 A. Yes, but Alipasino Polje is not all in the valley. There is a
24 part of Alipasino Polje that is actually up a slope.
25 Q. Thank you very much.
1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I will try to be as brief as
2 possible with the second statement. DD00-0965, the 19th of May, 2006.
3 It's the one that I got mixed up a while ago. If that document could
4 please be brought up. Thank you.
5 Q. Is this your signature here?
6 A. Yes, it is.
7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] If we can move on to page 2.
8 Q. Paragraph 1 contains what we already discussed. "First, I was
9 never in the army at the start of the war in 1992," and we clarified that.
10 Then you went on to say as follows: "I only joined the other
11 civilians from my apartment block to guard the building from attackers or
12 any possible looters and vandals." Is that correct?
13 A. Yes, it is.
14 Q. When you said that you wanted to prevent attacks by looters and
15 vandals, does that mean from looters and vandals within Sarajevo, in
16 Dobrinja specifically?
17 A. Yes. We organised ourselves. Each entrance set up their own
18 organisation, because that was the very beginning of the war.
19 Q. No, no. At the time when Dragomir Milosevic was the commander of
20 the Sarajevo Corps, was the situation the same?
21 A. No, it wasn't. Are you referring to the year 1995?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. No, no. No, it wasn't.
24 Q. Who were those groups committing these acts inside Sarajevo at the
1 A. I don't know. I don't know if they existed at all, at least not
2 in my neighbourhood.
3 Q. Were there any killings? Did people go missing? Were people
4 taken from their homes, irrespective of whether they were Serbs, Muslims
5 or Croats?
6 A. I know nothing about that.
7 Q. I'll skip paragraph 2 and move to paragraph 3. It refers to the
8 bombs, and let's finally find out the truth.
9 It says here: "Third, my statement says that at 10.00 a.m. I saw
10 a modified air bomb fly from Lukavica."
11 Is that what it says?
12 A. Yes, that's what it says.
13 Q. Yes, that's what it says. And then the following sentence: "I
14 actually don't know where it originated from."
15 Is that correct?
16 A. Yes, it is, because I didn't know where it was fired from. I'm
17 not a military expert. I just could see the direction where it came from,
18 but where it originated at, I'm not an expert.
19 Q. Let me ask you one more thing and then I'll finish. You go on to
20 say as follows: "This sentence" -- this refers to the direction from
21 which the air bomb came -- "should be referring to the 2.00 p.m. air bomb
22 which injured me."
23 A. That is why, because I was referring to the first bomb. I don't
24 know about the first bomb. I was inside the building and it flew over the
25 building. Therefore, I cannot say where it had come from. I can only
1 guess by its sound.
2 Q. But look here at the last sentence of this paragraph: "I cannot
3 say where that 2.00 p.m. bomb originated. I saw it flying from the
4 direction of Mojmilo hill, but I don't know how far on the other side of
5 Mojmilo it came."
6 Is that correct?
7 A. Yes, that's correct. I don't know the exact location where it
8 came from.
9 Q. In your first statement given in 1997, you said that you had heard
10 a sound, and only after this black thing landed in front of you, you were
11 able to see what it was.
12 A. Do you understand? We were listening to the sound first and then
13 we saw this black object falling.
14 Q. Before that you never saw anything in the air.
15 A. You cannot follow a flight just according to a sound.
16 Q. Thank you very much.
17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.
18 Thank you, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.
20 MR. SACHDEVA: No questions, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: That concludes your evidence, and we thank you
22 for coming to the Tribunal to give it, and you may now leave.
23 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
1 [The witness withdrew]
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] This document, DD00-0957, which
5 is a statement given on the 10th of March, 1997 -- oh, I apologise, Your
6 Honours. DD00-0965, dated the 19th of May, 2006, I would like this to be
7 admitted into evidence.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
9 Now, I understand the next witness --
10 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, the next witness is a protected
11 through voice, face and pseudonym, and Mr. Cannata will be taking the
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: But I'm told that we have to have a break to
14 allow some technical matters to be attended to. How long?
15 THE REGISTRAR: Ten, 15 minutes.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Ten minutes.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sorry, Mr. Waespi.
18 MR. WAESPI: Yes. Just to finish a document that was marked for
19 identification with the previous witness - that was Luinovic - we have
20 already received a draft translation and we have e-mailed that to the
21 Defence. This concerns D94. So we don't have any more objection to have
22 it tendered as an exhibit.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: So we can admit that now as an exhibit.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Can I also just ask that the last document
25 tendered will be given Exhibit number D97.
1 --- Break taken at 6.13 p.m.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 --- On resuming at 6.27 p.m.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly swear that I will speak
6 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 WITNESS: WITNESS W-12
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.
10 And you may begin.
11 MR. CANNATA: Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you, Your Honours.
12 Before we start, let me remind everybody in this courtroom that
13 the witness is a protected witness. He has a pseudonym, which is W-12,
14 and image and voice distortion. And to comply with these protections, we
15 will ask the court officer to show the witness the pseudonym sheet.
16 Examination by Mr. Cannata:
17 Q. Witness, can you be so kind to take a look at the document which
18 is being shown to you now and confirm that the information contained
19 therein is correct.
20 A. Yes, it is.
21 MR. CANNATA: Mr. President, Your Honours, I tender the pseudonym
22 sheet into evidence, under seal.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.
24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P305, under seal, Your Honour.
25 MR. CANNATA: Mr. President, Your Honours, this witness is a 92
1 ter witness, so the Prosecution will seek to admit the witness statement,
2 both statements.
3 So I will ask the court officer to call up 65 ter number 2971, and
4 please, not to be broadcast because of the protections granted to the
5 witness. Can we have also the B/C/S version of the same document. Thank
6 you very much.
7 Q. Witness, do you see your signature at the bottom of the first page
8 of the English version?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 MR. CANNATA: Can we move to page 2 of both the English and
11 B/C/S. Next page. Can we zoom a little bit, the B/C/S one. Thank you
12 very much.
13 Q. Witness, do you recognise this document as the statement you gave
14 to the Office of the Prosecutor in November 1995?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you remember whether you have reviewed this statement during
17 our proofing session yesterday?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Witness, do you confirm that that statement is true and accurate,
20 to the best of your knowledge and belief?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. And you also confirm that you would give the same answers if asked
23 the same questions today, again?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you, Witness.
1 MR. CANNATA: I tender this statement into evidence, under seal,
2 with your leave, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
4 THE REGISTRAR: The document will be Exhibit P306, under seal,
5 Your Honours.
6 MR. CANNATA: Can we move to exhibit -- 65 ter 2972. Can we also
7 have the B/C/S version, please.
8 Q. Witness, again the same question: Do you see your signature at
9 the bottom of page 1 of the English statement, the one on your left?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. CANNATA: Can we move to page 2, next page, in both the
12 statements? Can we -- let me ask the witness --
13 Q. Witness, do you remember that this is the statement that you
14 reviewed in my office -- in an investigator's office yesterday in our
15 proofing session?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Is there any correction that you want to make to this statement?
18 MR. CANNATA: Can we zoom the B/C/S page, at the bottom, the last
19 paragraph, if possible.
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. Yes, I would like to make a correction on the right-hand side in
22 the last paragraph where it says: (redacted)
2 Q. Thank you, Witness. With this correction, would this statement be
3 true and accurate, to the best of your knowledge and belief?
4 A. Yes. So, there were female neighbours; one of them got killed and
5 the other was injured but survived.
6 Q. The so corrected statement will be reflecting the same answer that
7 you would give today if asked the same question again?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. CANNATA: Mr. President, Your Honours, I tender this statement
10 into evidence, under seal, again.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this document will become Exhibit
13 P307, under seal.
14 MR. CANNATA: Thank you very much.
15 May we have Exhibit P104, which is the map. So it will take a
16 little bit to be loaded. Meanwhile, I will ask the witness a few
17 questions, with your leave, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
19 MR. CANNATA: Thank you.
20 Q. Witness, were you a soldier with the ABiH between August 1994 and
21 December 1995?
22 A. Yes, I was.
23 Q. Do you remember the corps and brigade you belonged to at the time?
24 A. Yes, I do. I was a member of the 1st Corps, 115th Brigade.
25 Q. What rank, if any, or what kind of role did you have in the 115th
1 Brigade between August 1994 and December 1995?
2 A. I didn't have a rank. I was a private on the front line.
3 Q. Thank you very much. I see that the map is now on the screen.
4 Witness, do you see the map on the screen?
5 A. I do.
6 MR. CANNATA: Can we have zoomed the top right-hand corner. Just
7 further down, please. No. That's fine. Okay, that should be fine.
8 Q. Witness, the day -- at the time of the shelling incident, you
9 stated that you heard a sound of a shell when you were on your way to the
10 front line; is that correct?
11 A. Yes. It was in the area of Brajkovac.
12 Q. Very well. Would you be able to mark, with the electronic pen
13 that Mr. Usher will kindly provide you with, the area that you just
14 indicated on the map. And if you need it to be zoomed, just tell us.
15 A. Yes, this is where Brajkovac is.
16 Q. Can you put a small A, a letter A, within that circle.
17 A. [Marks].
18 Q. You described that sound as -- well, let's put it this way: What
19 was the sound you heard that day like? Was it the sound of a mortar
21 A. No, it wasn't a sound of a mortar shell. I think it was a gun, a
22 cannon or some heavier weapon, a gun or something like that. So it was --
23 it was a powerful sound, much more powerful than the one made by a mortar
25 Q. And how did you make such an assumption? How did you establish,
1 in your opinion, that it was not a mortar shell but, rather, a cannon
2 shell or a different shell?
3 A. Well, a mortar shell produces a lower noise when fired. This was
4 a loud noise, a loud shout, compared to a mortar.
5 Q. Do you have any experience with mortar shells, any direct
6 experience with mortar shells?
7 A. No, I don't, apart from the experience in the war that I acquired.
8 Q. So it would be fair to state that you experienced mortar shells in
9 your capacity as a front line soldier?
10 A. Yes, but only based on the shells that were falling around me.
11 Q. So, another way to put it: You heard mortar shells falling -- you
12 heard the sound that a mortar shell makes?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And that sound was different from the one you heard that day?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Very well. Did you see where these shells landed? Where did it
18 A. No, I didn't. The weather was bad. But we assessed that it was
19 the old part or the old quarter of Bascarsija.
20 Q. Can you mark this -- this quarter on the map in front of you, as
21 you did with the circle. Can you circle that area.
22 A. [Marks].
23 Q. Can you put a letter B within the circle.
24 A. [Marks].
25 Q. How did you establish, how did you make the assumption, that the
1 shell landed -- could have landed in the area that you just indicated in
2 the map? On which basis?
3 A. Given that at the time I was living in Bistrik, which is the old
4 part of the city, and I was quite familiar with Bascarsija, I knew that
5 that is where the shell landed.
6 Q. We'll get back here to this point a little bit later.
7 So let me ask you now: Did you see where the shell was fired
9 A. No, I didn't. But I heard the sound of it being fired.
10 Q. Would you be able to locate on the map the location which
11 corresponds to the direction of the sound you heard that day? In other
12 words, what you think is the place where the shell was fired. Can you
13 mark it.
14 A. Yes, I can. It's the Vidikovac area.
15 Q. Can you put a letter C within the circle you have just marked.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you. How did you establish -- I mean, based on your
18 knowledge and experience, how did you reach the conclusion that the shell
19 you heard was fired from Vidikovac?
20 A. Well, because our positions were much lower. The highest position
21 was at Colina Kapa, and the sound of its being fired was coming from the
22 left and from a higher elevation, that is to say, from the direction of
24 Q. So based on what you heard and what you observed that day, you
25 were able to reach the conclusion that the shell was fired from Vidikovac.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Isn't Vidikovac a part of Mount Trebevic?
3 A. Yes, it is.
4 Q. Let me go back to the question I asked you before. How did you
5 establish that, since you didn't see the shell --
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.
7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I didn't want to
8 get up earlier, but I think that the witness cannot be asked whether it
9 came from Mount Trebevic. Rather, he should be asked, where was the shot
10 fired from, not whether it was fired from Mount Trebevic.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm trying follow the line of questioning.
12 MR. CANNATA: Your Honour, if I may assist, I don't believe I said
13 that question.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: We had the question: "So based on what you heard
15 and what you observed that day, you were able to reach the conclusion that
16 the shell was fired from Vidikovac." But prior to that, the witness had
17 said: "The highest position was at" so and so, "and the sound of its
18 being fired was coming from the left and from the higher elevation, that
19 is to say, from the direction of Vidikovac."
20 So the witness had said that before. That's not leading,
21 Mr. Tapuskovic. It was already in evidence. It can't be leading.
22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] But, Your Honours, towards the
23 end, that's what I heard, at the end.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, the witness had already given the evidence
25 that he heard the shot come from the direction of Vidikovac. He is merely
1 repeating himself -- counsel is merely repeating what the witness said
3 Please go ahead.
4 MR. CANNATA: Yes.
5 Q. Carry on. So, Witness -- let me check where we were when we
7 Witness, I'm going ask you: How did you establish then, if you
8 didn't see the shell landing, how did you establish -- how did you reach
9 your conclusion that the shell landed in - and forgive my pronunciation -
10 Bascarsija, the location indicated with the letter B on the map?
11 A. Well, as I said before, I lived in that neighbourhood, the old
12 town, part of Bistrik, and I know Bascarsija very well. From Brajkovac
13 you can hear everything and you can see Bascarsija very clearly when the
14 weather is fine. And it was because of that that we were able to
15 establish that the shell landed in a part of Bascarsija, which is the old
17 Q. What was the weather like that day?
18 A. It was quite bad. It was a foggy morning at about 8.00 or 9.00.
19 Q. You mentioned previously in your evidence that you reached the
20 conclusion that the shell was fired from Vidikovac, because it's in a
21 higher position with respect to which location?
22 A. In relation to Colina Kapa. Colina Kapa is much lower. It's at a
23 level with Brajkovac. A bit higher up, perhaps, but for the most part,
24 that would be it. Vidikovac is, again, higher up, and it was from that
25 direction that we heard the echo of the shell being fired.
1 Q. Can I ask you, you stated that you were part of the 115th
2 Brigade. Do you stand by this evidence?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. Would you be able to mark on this map with a line the area of
5 responsibility of the 115th Brigade that you belonged to, roughly?
6 A. Yes. The area of responsibility of the 115th Brigade was here,
7 stretching from Kozija Cuka - I can only see Jarcedoli here - from the
8 Miljacka river, and then all the way as -- this is where the Miljacka
9 river is. And then Jarcedoli and then Dolovi and then Mala Colina Kapa,
10 Velika Colina Kapa, Bogusevac, Brajkovac, Debelo Brdo, Vranjaca, and then
11 from here down towards Debelo Brdo and Kovacici, down towards Grbavica and
12 past the Jewish cemetery, around about here.
13 Q. Thank you very much. Would you be so kind as to put the number
14 115 and the letter B either at the -- let's say at the very bottom of your
15 right, and corresponds with the "most" on the river. So to have on the
16 record that the line describes the 115th Brigade line.
17 A. On the right?
18 Q. Please. Thanks.
19 A. 115. Should I add anything else?
20 Q. And, please, the letter B.
21 A. [Marks].
22 Q. Thank you very much.
23 MR. CANNATA: I have very few -- a couple of questions and then I
24 will be done.
25 JUDGE MINDUA: You are finished with this map?
1 MR. CANNATA: No, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MINDUA: I have just one question for the witness.
3 [Interpretation] Sir, you said that you were in Brajkovac and you
4 heard detonations from Vidikovac. You said that you believed that the
5 shells fell on Bascarsija. Now, my question is as follows: Did you see
6 the shells pass by, those tracing bullets or bombs - I don't know how to
7 call them - or do you only think that the detonations took place at
8 Bascarsija, or that what you heard in Bascarsija was the result -- that
9 that sound was the result of what happened on Vidikovac? In other words,
10 is it possible that the detonations that you heard in Bascarsija came from
11 elsewhere? What allows you to be so certain about what you said?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Briefly after the sound of the shell
13 being fired, one could hear a detonation at Carsija, very soon after, and
14 that's why we concluded that the shell had been fired from Vidikovac and
15 had landed in the general Carsija area.
16 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] But it was not possible to see them
17 like it was the case for the modified air bombs, was it?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I couldn't see the Carsija area
19 at all.
20 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
21 MR. CANNATA: May I carry on?
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please continue.
23 MR. CANNATA: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 Q. Witness, how long did you serve with the ABiH army?
25 A. From June 1992 to around about April 1996.
1 Q. And you were -- you've been always attached to the 115th Brigade?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So the red line on the map which describes the area of
4 responsibility of the 115th Brigade is your area of responsibility.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you know what a 120-millimetre mortar is? Have you ever seen
8 A. Yes. I saw one back in the JNA, when I did my term with the JNA,
9 back in 1980.
10 Q. And in your experience as a soldier with the 115th Brigade and as
11 an ABiH soldier, have you ever seen a 120-millimetre mortar within your
12 area of responsibility, which is the area of the 115th Brigade?
13 A. No.
14 MR. CANNATA: That concludes my examination-in-chief, Your
15 Honour. Thank you.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Cannata.
17 MR. CANNATA: Your Honour, I'm sorry, I was forgetting to tender
18 into evidence the map, as marked.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we will admit it.
20 MR. CANNATA: Thank you very much.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P308, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll have the cross-examination tomorrow. We'll
23 break now until tomorrow at 9.00 a.m.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,
25 to be reconvened on Friday, the 2nd day of March,
1 2007, at 9.00 a.m.