1 Tuesday, 6 March 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi, please continue.
7 MR. WAESPI: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning, Your
8 Honours. Thank you very much.
9 WITNESS: ISMET HADZIC [Resumed]
10 Examination by Mr. Waespi: [Continued]
11 Q. Good morning, Mr. Hadzic.
12 A. Good morning.
13 Q. Did you have a good rest yesterday.
14 A. I hope so.
15 MR. WAESPI: If we could retrieve please Exhibit P328, marked for
17 Q. Witness, if we could briefly finish the orientation about
18 locations of settlements in Dobrinja. Without making these circles,
19 although they look very, very fancy, can you please just mark with numbers
20 the other settlements in Dobrinja.
21 A. This settlement is Dobrinja 2-B, between the river and the
22 Dobrinja D-1; this one is D-1, D 1-2; then Dobrinja 2-1 and Dobrinja 2-A.
23 Next to this settlement is a village or some old houses which used to be
24 in Dobrinja before the building blocks began being built; then at the foot
25 of Mojmilo hill, we have Dobrinja 3-B and next to it 3-A. At the entrance
1 to the Dobrinja settlement, next to the road, is Dobrinja 5, or D-5.
2 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Hadzic.
3 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President if this -- the previous exhibit which
4 was P328, the one which was marked for identification last -- yesterday,
5 could be tendered as an exhibit and also this one.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, yesterday's exhibit, which was marked
8 for identification, will now be Exhibit P328, and today' marking will be
9 Exhibit P329.
10 MR. WAESPI: And just for the record, the markings the witness has
11 added today are in blue, while yesterday the markings were in red.
12 If we could have a new exhibit, in fact, it's the original one,
13 ter number 03013, please. And this is the last page of that 19-page
14 range; again, the map.
15 Q. And, Witness, while that is being retrieved, this is the same
16 exhibit that you see on the ELMO, and you're very familiar with this one.
17 Can you please explain to the Judge what is these red lines mean. And,
18 first, I want to talk about the red line, and you might want to turn to
19 the ELMO, the red line that is kind of vertical from Mojmilo, the
20 settlement down towards the airport, and cutting off parts of what you
21 call the airport settlement, yesterday. That's this twisted line on the
22 left side of the plan.
23 I would like to you indicate to Your Honours what that is, but we
24 need to wait until we have the image appearing on your screen. And unlike
25 yesterday, today we will have a red line as it appears in the original, so
1 there's no need to -- to mark it again.
2 And just a look at the ELMO, you see the red line there on your
3 ELMO on your right side?
4 A. Yes, I do. That's the line.
5 Q. Can you tell Your Honours what line that is. What does it depict?
6 A. This line in the airport settlement is the separation line. This
7 is where we had contact with the Serb forces. They were across the road,
8 and these were our positions in the airport settlement. On the other side
9 of the line, there were the Serb forces just across the street. This
10 settlement was attacked between the 16th and the 21st of June. People
11 were forced out, and the civilians were forced to go to the rest of
12 Dobrinja; whereas, part of them was taken across the airport to Kula, the
13 other portion of the inhabitants remained there.
14 Q. Thank you very much. If you can now turn to the screen, because
15 we do have the line now on your screen. Do you see the line that goes
16 vertically down from Mojmilo settlement down towards the airport?
17 A. From here?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. From here down to the airport, yes, I see it.
20 Q. And that's the line you just were making comments about a moment
22 A. Not this one. The other one inside the airport settlement. What
23 I see on the ELMO is another line.
24 Q. Yes. Please concentrate on the line that we see on the screen.
25 MR. WAESPI: And if the picture could be enlarged, please. The
1 picture on the screen.
2 I'm sorry. So we see the wider area, so I guess it's the way it
3 was in the original state. So I guess making smaller so the whole area
4 can be seen. Yes. Thank you very much.
5 Q. So, please explain, again, the line the one that you see on the
6 left side from Mojmilo down towards the airport settlement.
7 A. From here, we have the separation line between our forces and the
8 Serb forces through the settlement of Dobrinja 5, the river, and the
9 village there towards the airport settlement.
10 Q. Yes. And can you -- because it's not easy for us to follow you,
11 you have to make a little marking. Can you make a little cross at the
12 line you're looking now.
13 A. I'm putting the cross in the central part.
14 Q. Yes. It's a blue cross and we have seen it now. So that depicts
15 the separation line between your forces and the Serbian forces. Is that
16 what you're saying?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you very much. Let's now turn to the other red line on the
19 right side of the screen, and if you can make another marking depicting
20 the line on the right side.
21 A. Again, a blue cross. It is the separation line between Dobrinja
22 and Oslobodenje.
23 Q. And on which side were your forces?
24 A. On the right-hand side.
25 Q. Is that where the word "Mojmilo" is written?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Can you now move totally to the right side of the screen. Do you
3 see another red line coming from Mojmilo hill?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And can you make another marking, and please attach the letter C
6 to this other marking.
7 A. A small arrow and the letter C.
8 Q. Yes. Thank you very much. What does this red line depict?
9 A. This red line is the separation line between our and Serbian
10 forces. Our forces are inside the line towards the arrow; whereas, the
11 Serb forces were on the right-hand side.
12 Q. And if you go down that red line, after about, in centimetres, 5,
13 6 centimetres, there is a horizontal line just below the word "Dobrinja,"
14 ending with a dot and two dashes. Can you see that?
15 A. I see "Dobrinja" marking the river on the map.
16 Q. Yes. And if you follow that red line, can you see the word
17 "Dobrinja" and a red dot below the word "Dobrinja"?
18 A. Yes, I do. It is exactly on the spot where I put the dot.
19 Q. Yes. And can you explain to Your Honours what this additional red
20 line that goes off the vertical red line signifies?
21 A. At the beginning of the war, we did not have this additional line
22 or position. Since this was an abandoned school and it was no man's land,
23 during the war, we extended our positions so as to try and prevent the
24 Serbian forces to enter the elementary school mentioned.
25 Q. Thank you very much. Can you encircle the elementary school,
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Hadzic. Now, if we go back to the centre
4 of the -- the chart, there is a red line which crosses the airport. Do
5 you see that?
6 A. Yes. It is the line that I will put a blue dot next to.
7 Q. And can you tell Your Honours what this red line depicts, please.
8 A. The red line represents the tunnel which we had dug under the
10 Q. And when was the tunnel operational?
11 A. By your leave, perhaps I could add two or three sentences by way
12 of introduction. Since we were beseiged and given the situation for
13 almost a year, people were trying to run across the runway, trying to
14 either escape from the city or to return with some food for their
15 families. It was hell. There was a grave need to make a hole of sorts,
16 so as to try and stop the killing that took place on the runway.
17 According to some unofficial data, in less than a year, 120 people were
18 killed on that runway.
19 Usually, the Serbian forces, which were below the airport, opened
20 fire at the people trying to cross. And sometimes the IFOR or SFOR
21 soldiers even turned their lights on the people running across, and they
22 would make them really an easy target. And it wasn't important who was
23 trying to cross, whether it was a child, a woman, or a young man. Since
24 one of our members worked at the airport - he was an engineer and a
25 Hungarian by origin - he brought us the plans, the sketches.
1 There is -- there are drainage pipes next to the runway, which are
2 supposed to take away the rain and takes the water further away to the
3 riverbed nearby. From one end of the airport to another one, to the other
4 end of the airport, there -- the diameter of those pipes was between 300
5 and 1.200 millimetre. By using those pipes, one could move from one end
6 of the airport to another.
7 Next to Aco's cafe on the other side, there was a manhole through
8 which you could reach one end of the drainage pipes, and one could go all
9 the way to the other end; however, that end was controlled by the Serb
10 forces and that provided us with the original idea to make a tunnel.
11 We began digging in early 1993. At first there were problems --
12 Q. And when was it operational, when was it able to be used?
13 A. On the 30th of July, 1993, the two sides met because the tunnel
14 was being dug from two sides simultaneously. The next day one could use
15 the tunnel, although with some difficulty.
16 Q. Thank you very much for your explanation, Mr. Hadzic.
17 If we can return for the last time to this chart, I see there are
18 numbers in the middle of this chart. Do you see those numbers?
19 A. With some difficulty, but, yes, I do see those: 1, 2, and 3.
20 Q. And you can always refer to the original which is still on your
21 ELMO. But before I ask you that question, does this chart with the red
22 lines you discussed a moment ago, does display the situation, the
23 confrontation lines were in summer 1994 and later?
24 A. Apart from the line at Mojmilo, which until 1994 was next to the
25 road, the rest of the lines were as shown here. Only at the end of 1994
1 and beginning of 1995, we moved the Mojmilo line to the top of the hill so
2 as to join the 101st Brigade and to prevent any possible incursion towards
3 Mojmilo hill.
4 Q. Yes. Thank you very much for the clarification. We come to
5 Mojmilo in a moment.
6 Now, can you please look at number 1 and circle number 1 on the
7 screen, and please tell us what number 1 depicts?
8 A. Number 1 is the place which the brigade command was at first.
9 Q. And where was it located?
10 A. It was located in Dobrinja 2 on -- or at a corner of a building
11 where the Borovo shop used to be, where shoes were sold.
12 Q. Was it in one of the apartments? Was it in the basement? Was it
13 on the street level? How many rooms were there?
14 A. It was on the ground floor. Part of the offices were in the
15 basement, although the conditions were poor. There was water, and it was
16 impossible to store anything there, so the ground floor of that shop.
17 Q. And you said it was initially in number 1. Did it move over time,
18 the brigade headquarters?
19 A. Yes. On the 1st of August, they tried to fire from Gacica hill,
20 trying to hit the building where we were; however, they missed and hit the
21 adjacent building as well as some shops in between.
22 After that, after that attempt, we moved the brigade command to
23 another location.
24 Q. And where was it moved to?
25 A. To the building marked with the number 2, across from the other
2 Q. Thank you very much. And where was the headquarters in August and
3 later of 1994 and 1995?
4 A. In 1994 and 1995, after we moved to another location, we were at
5 number 2. In 1995, we were there; but by end 1995 when the two brigades
6 merged, we moved to the barracks of Ramiz Salcin or Viktor Bubanj.
7 Q. We dealt with number 2. What about number 3?
8 A. Number 3 was a tactical move, trying to fool the Serb forces. We
9 moved there for a short while; and once we realised they were no longer
10 attacking the former headquarters, we returned to number 2 because in
11 certain aspects the location at number 2 was safer than the one at number
13 Q. Can you tell us what number 4 was?
14 A. Number 4 is in the C5 settlement. It was a command post of the
15 2nd Battalion of the Dobrinja Brigade.
16 Q. Yes. You just marked again with a blue circle the location of --
17 of number 4 and just above the entry to the tunnel. What was number 5?
18 A. Number 5 is the command of the 1st Battalion. I put a blue cross
19 next to it.
20 Q. Yes. And the last number is number 6.
21 A. Number 6 is in Dobrinja 5. Is the command post of the 3rd
23 Q. Thank you very much. And these positions, were they also valid in
24 late 1994 and 1995.
25 A. As far as I can recall, yes.
1 Q. Now, were there companies subordinated to these battalions?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And where were the companies located?
4 A. At the separation line. Usually, a battalion would have four
5 companies, out of which three were always on duty and one was supposed to
6 be the reserves.
7 Q. And did they have a headquarters?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And where were these headquarters located?
10 A. At the separation line.
11 Q. Now, you told us a moment ago that your brigade headquarters was
12 shelled. Now, in your observation, was it shelled more or less than the
13 other areas in Dobrinja?
14 A. Neither more nor less. All areas were targeted the same way. No
15 distinction was made between a brigade command or an elementary school or
16 a flea market for that matter, later in 1994. Shells landed everywhere
17 with no distinction.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, if we could tender this exhibit,
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit P330.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Counsel, before you leave this picture, could you
24 please ask the witness if he could explain to us what the confrontation
25 line looked like in this urban area. Were there barbed wire or any other
1 physical, visible markings, and how was it possible for the local
2 population to know exactly where the confrontation line?
3 For the witness's information, I'm putting this question through
4 the Prosecutor to you, Mr. Witness, because we have had many witnesses
5 here during this trial who have told us that they were not exactly sure of
6 where the confrontation line was. So this triggered my interest in
7 knowing a little more about how it would be possible for a civilian to
8 ascertain where exactly the confrontation line was.
9 Could you help us clarify this question?
10 I put the question through the Prosecutor because he's examining
11 at the moment.
12 MR. WAESPI:
13 Q. Yes, witness, I think this is a very important question. Can you
14 answer it?
15 A. Certainly. I would be happy to.
16 Dobrinja is an urban settlement, a modern settlement. The
17 population of our part, that was under our control, knew exactly where our
18 lines were as opposed to the Serbian lines. The soldiers also prevented
19 civilians from going further in case they came to the enemy lines too
20 close. Some people wanted to move about, trying to find firewood, but we
21 wouldn't let them move too far so have as few casualties as possible.
22 The 27.000 inhabitants of Dobrinja new exactly where our lines
23 were as opposed to the Serbian lines, and they were also familiar with the
24 exact spots where they shouldn't go or move about.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: In one case, you told us that the Serbian forces
1 were just across the street. Would that mean, then, that the Muslim
2 people would not be able to go across the street to the other side?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Even if they tried to cross over,
4 they would be killed.
5 The airport settlement was a very characteristic one. The
6 separation line between our forces and the Serbian forces was a road five
7 wide. In one part of the settlement, which was under our control, there
8 were Bosnian forces in buildings, and across the road in other buildings
9 were the Serbian forces.
10 Your Honour, it sometimes happened that inhabitants or our
11 soldiers or the Serbian soldiers wanted to get a cigarette because having
12 cigarettes was a -- like an enormous fortune at the time which helped
13 alleviate the pain that they were suffering.
14 MR. WAESPI:
15 Q. Can you also answer the question by Judge Harhoff whether these
16 confrontation lines were fortified. Did they have barbed wire? Were
17 there other distinctive features?
18 A. No. We didn't have any barbed wires.
19 MR. WAESPI: If we could please go to map 028 -- 02872, please,
20 and I would like to talk about Mojmilo hill now.
21 Q. You said that there was some changes to the confrontation lines at
22 Mojmilo hill. Can you tell us what kind of feature of Mojmilo hill? How
23 did it look like?
24 A. I think I already said at the beginning that either on the 13th or
25 the 15th of May, 1992, the Serbian forces took up positions on Mojmilo
2 Q. Yes. I'm mainly interested in what's happening after 1994, when
3 you made some moves to enlarge your area of responsibility on Mojmilo
4 hill. Can you with briefly explain us where you had soldiers stationed on
5 Mojmilo hill?
6 A. Up until 1994, there always danger of the Serbian forces entering
7 Mojmilo from the right flank and thereby enter our area of responsibility;
8 that is, either 101st or the 155th Motorised Brigade.
9 Q. Can I stop you.
10 MR. WAESPI: If the map could be enlarged around Dobrinja. North
11 of Dobrinja we have the word "Novi Grad," and that part should be
12 enlarged, just south. Yes. Thank you. And if you again to the left side
13 of the map and enlarge that part again. Yes.
14 Q. Do you see now Mojmilo hill there displayed, Mr. Hadzic?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. Can you mark where the positions of your brigade were in 1994 and
18 MR. WAESPI: And perhaps it could even be made bigger,
19 Mr. Registrar.
20 Q. Just one second, Mr. Hadzic.
21 MR. WAESPI: Can it be made still a little bit bigger? I think
22 we'll leave it. It will take too much time.
23 A. In earlier 1994, we had trenches up to this point, up to this red
25 Q. Please add a letter A to the red point. A larger A, please.
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. Thank you.
3 A. Since in 1995 the blue route was opened and we started receiving
4 logs from Mount Igman, we decided in order to fortify the inside part of
5 our lines to extend the line and to link it up on the top of Mojmilo with
6 the final point of the trenches of the 101st Brigade. If you allow me, I
7 can draw this line for you.
8 This is where we linked up with the 101st, which definitely closed
9 up any point of entry for the Serbian forces penetrating our area in
11 Q. Did you have soldiers up there, and where was the -- where were
12 these soldiers?
13 A. We deployed part of the 1st Battalion in the trenches in order to
14 cover this line. There was sentry points, there were machine-gun nests,
15 and everything else which is necessary to maintain a line.
16 Q. And was there an UNPROFOR position on Mojmilo hill as well?
17 A. Yes, at the highest peak of Mojmilo hill, I believe. There was a
18 medieval fortress there and observation positions of UN forces were
19 deployed there.
20 Q. Can you depict on the map where the highest point of Mojmilo hill
22 A. It's very difficult to do that on this map. I can just do it
23 roughly and put a dot. It perhaps does not correspond exactly because
24 this is not a topographic map.
25 Q. We see the idea. Can you please add letter B next to it; not on
1 the dot, but next to the dot. Letter B, please.
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. Thank you very much. If we can briefly talk about weaponry.
4 MR. WAESPI: And I'd like to tender this map as an exhibit,
5 Mr. President, please.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P331.
8 MR. WAESPI:
9 Q. You answered, yesterday, a question by Judge Harhoff about
10 weaponry. You talked mainly about infantry weaponry. Did you have, in
11 terms of mortars, did you have in your brigade in Dobrinja 120-millimetre
13 A. The first 81 mortar was donated to us by the 4th Motorised Brigade
14 in October 1993.
15 Q. Let me just stop you there. Did you have 120-millimetre mortars?
16 A. In Dobrinja, no, we didn't.
17 Q. So let's talk about this 81-millimetre mortar you just started to
18 talk about. You said you received one in October 1993. Did you ever use
19 this mortar in Dobrinja?
20 A. It was a 181-millimetre calibre, but we never had shells for it;
21 however, we did use it to train our men.
22 Q. Did you have 60-millimetre mortars?
23 A. In earlier 1994, when an offensive on Mount Igman started, we had
24 120-millimetre mortars, as well as 60-millimetre mortars, which we
25 deployed in the area of responsibility of the Dobrinja Brigade.
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: I thought the witness said --
2 MR. WAESPI: Yes, let me clarify. Did you use 120-millimetre
3 mortars in Dobrinja, or did you use it, if you had them, outside of
4 Dobrinja at Mount Igman.
5 A. As far as I can are remember, not in Dobrinja. We didn't use
6 120-millimetres mortars, but we did use them on Mount Igman.
7 Q. How many 60-millimetre mortars did you have in Dobrinja?
8 A. Approximately, each company had two to four 60-millimetre mortars.
9 They were positioned opposite the company in order to cover the separation
10 line in this particular area.
11 Q. And what's the range of a 60-millimetre mortar?
12 A. As far as I know, between 1.000 and 1.500 metres.
13 Q. Thank you, Witness. Did you have guns? I mean heavy guns as
14 opposed to rifles?
15 A. Except for one recoilless gun, which didn't have any sights, we
16 didn't have anything else.
17 Q. And where was the recoilless gun located?
18 A. In the area of responsibility of the 1st Battalion, close to the
20 Q. Now let me go back to the -- these trenches.
21 The purpose, the way I understand of these trenches, is obviously
22 to defend yourself against the enemy, and these trenches were at the front
23 lines. Is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And we have seen that chart with the red lines.
1 Now, was there a second line of defence which was more inside
3 A. There was only the front line of defence in Dobrinja and nothing
4 else; the front line and that's it. And all our expertise and knowledge
5 was used on this front line, because practically it was impossible to
6 establish any other line in Dobrinja.
7 Q. Were there trenches used, so-called communication trenches, used
8 inside Dobrinja for the protection of civilians?
9 A. Yes. The civilian protection, with the units and men they had at
10 their disposal, constructed or dug out communication trenches between
11 certain settlements to allow people to move around and do -- run their
12 errands. And these communication trenches were actually built in order to
13 provide protection for the civilian population from fire while they were
14 moving around and doing their business.
15 Q. And protection against -- against whom?
16 A. From sniping.
17 Q. And did your soldiers use these trenches which were built for the
18 protection of civilians to fire?
19 A. No. There was no need for that.
20 Q. Now, you told us about the civilian defence. Very briefly on the
21 civilian defence, were they part of your chain of command? Were they
22 subordinated to a brigade?
23 A. No. They were not in our chain of command. They had their own
24 command and their own commander. All civilian protection units were
25 subordinated to this commander and the orders that he issued.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, you told the Prosecutor that there was
2 no need for your soldiers to use the trenches that had been built for the
3 protection of civilians to fire. Can you explain that?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Dobrinja battlefield, Your
5 Honour, was a typical urban warfare, so to speak. The communication
6 trenches were inside the settlement, and the separation line led from the
7 trenches as far as 800 to 1.000 metres. Sometimes one couldn't even see
8 the line from these trenches; therefore, it was impossible to fire from
9 these trenches.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: So you never had to fire either defensively, and
11 you never fired aggressively.
12 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, I think there are two types of
13 trenches. The first trenches, as I understand the evidence of the witness,
14 were at the front lines used by the soldiers, and the other trenches,
15 inside, were what he called communication trenches which you were used by
16 the civilians to cross from one point to the other one, if that can be
17 clarified by the witness.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, would you clarify that.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said a while ago that the
20 communication trenches were inside the settlement linking various parts of
21 the settlement for the civilian purposes, for their moving around. We
22 didn't have any barracks in Dobrinja or places where battalions or
23 companies were billeted. After finishing their duty, each soldier would
24 go home. However, it was impossible to launch any defensive or offensive
25 actions, because we would jeopardise our soldiers much more than we would
1 jeopardise the Serbian soldiers because of the position of the trenches.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: They were, as it were, internalised?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
4 MR. WAESPI:
5 Q. You mentioned a moment ago that these communication trenches is
6 internalised. Trenches were constructed by the civilian defence. Did the
7 civilian defence do other things in order to protect the civilians from
8 sniper fire?
9 A. Whatever was possible; for example, from the central part of
10 Dobrinja, which was covered with concrete slabs 40 by 40, we removed all
11 those slabs in order to protect the windows at ground floors of the
12 buildings, in order to protect them from shrapnel exploding in front of
13 these buildings. The civilian protection also did unloading of
14 humanitarian aid, distributed humanitarian aid. They also dug graves and
15 organised and arranged funerals with the families. Dobrinja didn't have
16 any burial site, so we had to make sort of improvised graveyards for the
17 people who were killed in Dobrinja.
18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hadzic. You explained the protection that was
19 initiated by the civilian defence and others for the civilians. Now,
20 which areas, which streets perhaps of Dobrinja were most exposed, if there
21 any such, to sniper fire?
22 A. I would say the central streets, the intersections; the main
23 street connecting two parts of Dobrinja where there was a so-called
24 Mitsubisi avenue, which was the biggest one, or the airport settlement, or
25 rather, the road where a trolley-bus service was running; and all
1 intersections where it was possible to fire upon people.
2 Q. And going to the other side, were there specific hot spots where
3 sniper fire would originate from?
4 A. Are you talking about Dobrinja?
5 Q. Yes, and the area around Dobrinja where sniper nests would be
6 located in your experience.
7 A. I would begin from the Oslobodenje, which is the final point of
8 defence line. The first or -- place, or rather, the house, the so-called
9 Sandzak big red house, was a sniper nest covering the Nedzarici
10 intersection below the dormitory and also the entrance to the Oslobodenje
11 building. The second nest was in the centre for the blind people
12 overlooking Alipasin and the intersection there. In Nedzarici, the most
13 infamous place was the faculty of theology, which was on a higher ground
14 and overlooking the entry point to Dobrinja and Mojmilo as well as the
15 intersection at the entry point to Mojmilo.
16 The higher ground were in Nedzarici where sniper nests could have
17 been placed; and in Dobrinja, actually in the village on the other side
18 held by the Serbs, there was a sniper nest in a house covering the
19 Mitsubishi avenue, and there was another private house overlooking the
20 road leading to Dobrinja 1.
21 From the lower part, the most dangerous place was the bell tower
22 of the Orthodox church and also a place in Dobrinja 4 under the control of
23 the VRS arm. And another hot spot that caused many problems for us was
24 the so-called Vitkovica house below Mojmilo, which covered the middle
25 section of the Mitsubishi avenue and the area around the hospital in
2 So more or less this would be the spots that I can now remember
3 where snipers were active from.
4 Q. And who controlled these hot spots, as you just outlined?
5 A. All these spots that I mentioned were on the side controlled by
6 the Serbs.
7 Q. And were these hot spots still active in the second part of 1994
8 and 1995?
9 A. It's interesting how they operated, these people firing on people.
10 From one point, they would be shooting for a day or two, then they would
11 be quiet for some 15 or 20 days; and then reactivate this spot for another
12 two or three days and that happened on a daily basis year after year.
13 Q. And who were the targets of this sniping? Was it soldiers,
14 civilians, other people?
15 A. They did not -- they were indiscriminate in choosing their
16 victims. The first victim in Dobrinja was a Serbian woman, 67 years of
17 age. Children or elderly people, women, soldiers, even UN soldiers were
19 Q. I would like to show you one document, and that's the only one I'm
20 using in examination-in-chief.
21 MR. WAESPI: And Mr. President, Your Honours, this is 02306.
22 Q. While that is being done, who were you subordinated to? Who was
23 your boss?
24 A. At the beginning of the war or -- at the beginning of the war, it
25 was the commander of the 1st Corps of the BH army, the late General
1 Abdullah Hajrulahovic. He was succeeded by General Karavelic; and then
2 following the reorganisation of the army, divisions were formed, we became
3 subordinated to General Prevljak, and at the end of the war to General
4 Ojnadzic [as interpreted].
5 Q. Now, do you recognise this document, Mr. Hadzic?
6 MR. WAESPI: If perhaps the second page could be shown which has
7 the signature.
8 A. As far as I can see, there is a document, or rather, documents
9 collected by the 12th Division from its subordinate units in order to make
10 a composite report about daily events in the area of responsibility of the
11 12th Division. Actually, it was General Karavelic who put all these
12 reports together and filed them in the archives. So these were daily
13 reports provided by units on everything that was happening on a daily
14 basis in their representative zones of responsibility.
15 Q. And I think this document is authored by Mr. Karavelic, the person
16 that you mentioned a moment ago?
17 A. Judging by the signature, yes.
18 Q. Let's go to the first page again, to the first paragraph. It
19 starts: "Aggressor." And let's just have a look at the first two
20 sentences. "In the past 24 hours in the area of responsibility of the
21 12th Division, the enemy intensively fired sniper rifles and small arms
22 on the lines of defence and civilian targets"; and then it goes on and
23 mentions also several brigades, including the brigade 155th Mountain
24 Brigade. That's your brigade?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. It also mentions that a member of the French Battalion was killed.
2 Now, is that an example of sniping against civilian targets that you
3 experienced in your area of responsibility?
4 A. This document is the best illustration of your question. In item
5 2, our forces, it says, "In the area of responsibility of 155th Mountain
6 Brigrade, one woman was killed and one was seriously injured."
7 Q. Yes. Thank you very much.
8 MR. WAESPI: If this document --
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
10 MR. WAESPI: If the document could be admitted.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it will be Exhibit P332.
13 MR. WAESPI:
14 Q. Do you know what kind of rifles the Serbian forces used for their
15 sniping activities?
16 A. According to the information we used to receive from some people
17 from the UN forces, who were at the airport within their area of
18 responsibility, when they would ask or plead with the Serbian forces not
19 to open fire from snipers because a truce was signed, they told us that
20 they would get information that the Serb forces usually used modern
21 sniping rifles called Pasp, P-a-s-p, produced by the Yugoslav national
22 army and the so-called Argentinian rifle which used the 12 point
23 7-millimetre bullets.
24 Q. Have you ever seen a sniper rifle used by the Serbian forces?
25 A. In an abandoned apartment in Dobrinja next to the airport, in a
1 building which had previously been shelled, we saw something. The blinds
2 fell due to the shelling, and a rifle fell out of the window. It had no
3 bullets, and it had some missing parts; however, we had some people in our
4 logistics who worked in weapons production, and they saw the rifle fall
6 They told us that this was the Pasp this rifle, this beautiful,
7 horrible, high-tech rifle, and its parts were very modern. As for the
8 Argentinian rifle, I never saw that.
9 Q. What is the optimal range of the PASP rifle, the optimal range of
10 firing at targets of the PASP rifle, if you know?
11 A. People say that it achieves the best results between 800 and 1.000
12 metres, but it can reach as far as 1500.
13 MR. WAESPI: If document, in fact, it is a photo, ter 02981 could
14 be retrieved.
15 Q. While that is being done, can I ask you, did you have interaction
16 with UNPROFOR as a commander of the Dobrinja Brigade?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And given the fact that in your area of responsibility civilians
19 were dying, as you told us, did you protest to UNPROFOR about these
21 A. As I said, the French Battalion was at the airport. Our
22 cooperation was a fair one. We met on a weekly basis and arranged various
23 activities; particularly, humanitarian aid delivery which went across
24 their area towards Dobrinja. They also held regular meetings with some
25 people on the Serbian side. We -- since we were unable to communicate in
1 writing, but rather it was the corps command who communicated in writing
2 with the SFOR, we asked them to ask the other side not to open sniper fire
3 against people.
4 Q. And by "people," what do you mean? Soldiers, civilians?
5 A. Civilians.
6 Q. And how many times would you make such representations that they
7 shouldn't open fire against civilians?
8 A. I think all the time or at least very frequently. It was a major
9 problem for us.
10 Q. Can you please turn your attention to the screen please, to the
11 photo. Do you know what it depicts, what it shows?
12 A. Certainly. It is the Simone Bolivar elementary school, and my
13 children used to attend that school before the war.
14 Q. And I take it that's the building in the middle, which has a sort
15 of a dark brown roof?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you remember an incident in May 1994 -- 1995 when the school
18 was shelled, and there were casualties, civilian casualties? Do you
19 remember that?
20 A. Yes, I do. I wasn't present at Dobrinja at that time, but I was
21 told that in the flower or greenery garden, as we called it, a shell
22 landed and that there were nine wounded.
23 Q. And I know it's difficult to cast back your mind, but do you
24 recall whether there was any combat activity around the school or in the
25 vicinity on the day that that happened?
1 A. I cannot remember that exactly. I think it was in May 1995 when
2 the focus was on the Igman/Treskavica plateau. I don't think there was
3 any combat in Dobrinja itself at that time. Of course, I may stand
5 Q. In fact, the incident occurred on the 18th of June, 1995. Does
6 that refresh your recollection of that incident better?
7 A. If it is the 18th of June, then there was little likelihood that
8 there was anything happening in Dobrinja. It was on the 18th of June,
9 1995. The preparations to block the city of Sarajevo were under way;
10 therefore, the focus was up there at Igman and Bjelasnicka.
11 Q. Now, can you see the brigade headquarters of your brigade on this
13 A. It Cannot be seen here, but one can see the building where the
14 command was.
15 Q. Can you encircle the building where the command was, please.
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. Thank you, Witness. The witness has marked the building at the
18 bottom of the picture with a large red circle.
19 MR. WAESPI: If that could be admitted as an exhibit,
20 Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Go ahead, please.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit P333.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: You appear to have under estimated the time for
24 this witness, because two and a half hours were allotted, both for
25 examination-in-chief and cross-examination, and you have already used up
1 one hour and 12 minutes but plus 45. So that is one hour, 57 minutes, but
2 of course his evidence is important.
3 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Prosecutor, I have a question for
4 the witness, please.
5 Witness, please, you were a commander of a brigade, and I'm sure,
6 as such, you know that something that many experts told us. Many experts
7 told us that sniping is a normal activity of Armed Forces; sniping against
8 military targets, of course, and not sniping against civilians. But
9 sniping against military targets is authorised.
10 So, yourself, in your own brigade, did you also have snipers? Did
11 you also have marksmen sniping the Serbs, the Serb forces. So I'm asking
12 this question because I like to know whether there was any cross-fire.
13 Because yesterday when you answered one of my questions, you said that
14 your brigade had been set up to protect civilians against the Serb forces.
15 So I tend to imagine for that reason that you probably also had
16 sniper -- snipers who were shooting at the other side, and that may be
17 there could have been collateral damage that could explain problems that
18 could have happened; notably, regarding what happened to the school that
19 we see here in this photograph. Because from the photograph, it looks
20 like the school is very close to the command post of your own brigade.
21 I'm just trying to think this out, to understand what happened,
22 and I would like your help in this regard.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd be happy to.
24 At the brigade and in the zone of responsibility, we had no
25 classical marksmen. But we had people at positions who had rifles, and
1 they could be turned into marksmen should there be such a need.
2 As for your other question whether they indeed fired, well,
3 Dobrinja has good acoustics because of the buildings, but cannot determine
4 where the firing came from. But people tried to assess where the firing
5 came from, and they would then open fire at those buildings from the
6 trenches we had. However, I want to stress, and I agree with you that
7 sniping is something deemed necessary in combat activities, but it only
8 applies to the opposing forces.
9 If one kills a girl in an apartment or a girl playing in front of
10 a building or to kill an old woman doing laundry at the river or an old
11 man who came out to smoke a cigarette or catch some fresh air, then that
12 is certainly not acceptable.
13 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Prosecutor, I'm not quite satisfied with the
15 when given by the witness, and maybe if we reformulate the question we can
16 have a better answer.
17 The allegation, of course, is that it has been brought to the
18 Chamber's attention that sniping also took place from areas held by the
19 Bosnian army. And so the question to be put to you, Mr. Witness, if you
20 are aware of any such sniping fire being launched from the area under your
21 responsibility, and also the question is whether snipers under your
22 command had weapons of precision; that is to say, sniper weapons.
23 I did ask you yesterday if you had any weaponry, and I was told
24 that you had only old hunting rifles and small weapons, and now we hear
25 that actually the battalions under your command were in possession of
1 60-millimetre mortars. Now, I would have expected you to give me that
2 answer when I put the question to you yesterday. So I kindly ask you now
3 to give a thorough and full answer to the questions posed by the Bench.
4 Thank you.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd be happy to.
6 Yesterday, when you asked me about the weaponry, I understood you
7 were asking me about the very beginning of the war, and I provided the
8 accurate answer. We received 60-millimetre mortars in late 1993 or early
9 1994. At the brigade, we did not have snipers. We had no precision
10 rifles that could be used for sniping; however, we had some marksmen at
11 the front line who had hunting rifles that could be turned into sniping
12 rifles should there be such a need.
13 They probably opened fire on the other side, acting as snipers,
14 but we never issued such orders, and we strictly forbade opening fire on
15 any targets other than soldiers. I hope this suffices.
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
17 MR. WAESPI:
18 Q. So are you saying that the sniping rifles you had were not
19 precision rifles, as you had seen from the other side? Because you did
20 see sniping rifle from the Serbian side?
21 A. Yes. And one could tell that these people were professionals. I
22 have no document or information to corroborate that. But the rumour had
23 it that in 1994/1995, in the Sarajevo area of responsibility, the
24 so-called weekend warriors came. They were professionals from the
25 neighbouring countries of Romania, Macedonia, Belarus, and they would come
1 and fight over the weekends for 2.000 German marks each, and then they
2 would take that home with the money and go home.
3 Sometimes our soldiers joked that the best shooters we had at the
4 front line were the people who poached before the war. Poaching means
5 when you hunt illegally.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did I also understand you to say that any sniping
7 rifles held by your side would have been a hunting rifle that was
8 converted to a sniping rifle?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, Your Honour. Your
10 Honour, the closest thing that comes to that definition is the hunting
11 rifles that the hunters possessed.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to turn on the
13 other microphone as well. Thank you.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would the usher see that the other microphone for
15 the witness is turned on.
16 So you never had a rifle that was in and of itself a sniping
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not of such quality as the Serbs
20 MR. WAESPI:
21 Q. But you did have proper sniping rifles, as opposed to a normal
22 hunting rifle?
23 A. I don't understand the question.
24 Q. So I understand you have said that you had hunting rifles which
25 could be turned into a sniping rifle.
1 A. In a way. Those hunting rifles did not have optical sights such
2 as a sniping rifle would.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: And apart from those hunting rifles that were
4 used as sniping rifles, did you have any other sniping rifles with the
5 appropriate telescopic features?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can answer this way, and I'll do
7 my best.
8 Given the situation we were in, and given the balance of strength
9 at Dobrinja, any weapon we had, even automatic rifles, could be used for
10 sniping, because sometimes the distance was as little as eight metres. If
11 you able to see the soldier on the other side, you could use a handgun to
12 kill him. But we had no modern rifles that should or are supposed to be
13 used originally for sniping.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
15 MR. WAESPI:
16 Q. Mr. Hadzic, you mentioned a moment ago what you called weekend
17 fighters and that they were paid a couple of thousand German marks. Who
18 paid, and I understand these are rumours, but did the rumours tell you who
19 paid the money to these weekend fighters.
20 A. If they were on the other side, it would be illogical for to us
21 pay them to kill us. They were paid by the military structures of the
22 army of Republika Srpska or the civilian structures of Republika Srpska,
23 the authorities of Republika Srpska.
24 Q. And who would allow these snipers to come to the front lines? Did
25 the rumours also tell you that?
1 A. I didn't know that. But logically speaking, approaching a front
2 line can only be approved by the commanding officer.
3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, shall we permit
4 rumours in such important matters, and can anyone stand by rumours? This
5 is a question have I for the Bench. These are serious matters.
6 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, if can I --
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will clarify how that information was
9 MR. WAESPI: Yes.
10 Q. I think you started saying that you have heard information, but
11 there was no documents to substantiate that. That's how you prefaced your
12 kind of volunteering this information. Can you tell what was the basis
13 for the information that these people from Romania or Macedonia might have
14 come to snipe at people?
15 A. Our intelligence gained such information through some people, who
16 at the end of 1993 and 1994 and in 1995 managed to flee, previously having
17 been caught and detained close to our area of responsibility. They were
18 later used as a workforce in the area of responsibility of the Dobrinja
19 Brigade. For example, five or six people fled from Bosanska Krupa and the
20 area of Kula, and they conveyed that information to our intelligence
21 officers. They told them about the arrivals of these weekend warriors.
22 We gained that information through such people. I cannot tell you
23 anything concerning the veracity of it, but this is what our they told our
25 Q. Thank you for that clarification. Now, I don't have too much--
1 just to continue onto a couple of issues. Now, were the Serbs, who laid,
2 you know, siege on Dobrinja or who encircled Dobrinja, were they able to
3 observe Dobrinja from their positions around Dobrinja?
4 A. Certainly. They were at various elevations, and they controlled
5 80 percent of all movement in Dobrinja. On the left side, at Mojmilo
6 hill, from that elevation one sees one third of Dobrinja. At Trebevic,
7 there is a telecommunication tower; and with a good sights, you can see
8 all of Dobrinja, and then Grbavicka Brdo to the right, which commands at
9 least two thirds of Dobrinja, provided you have good equipment, you can
10 monitor all movement and all activity in Dobrinja.
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hadzic. You have spoken about the sniping and
12 shelling of civilians in Dobrinja and that there were casualties among the
13 civilians. Now, how did, based on your observations, how did the
14 civilians cope, specifically did you observe whether or not the shooting
15 and shelling of civilians impacted on them psychologically.
16 A. At the beginning of the war, it was a disaster, psychologically
17 speaking. It affected not only the people who were killed and their
18 families but the entire neighbourhood around the area where someone had
19 been killed.
20 In 1994 and 1995, it became a normal thing, although to say that
21 it was normal is horrific. Only the families who had their family members
22 killed were affected. But as for the others, they just saw one person
23 less. That was the mental state of the population. Death was the most
24 common thing in 1994 and 1995; although, the psychological burden was
25 somewhat less than in the initial two years.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi, if you have just another few minutes,
2 then we'll continue; if not, we'll take the break now.
3 MR. WAESPI: No. I have just one more question, in fact.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
5 MR. WAESPI: I hear the French channel, but perhaps that could be
7 Q. You know that the commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps from
8 August 1994 was General Galic; is that correct? Sorry, General
10 A. I knew that piece of information.
11 Q. And you also know that the predecessor was General Galic?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you meet any of these commanders during the war?
14 A. No. I see General Milosevic here today for the first time.
15 Q. Now, on the ground, you were the commander in -- of the Dobrinja
16 Brigade in Dobrinja. Did you see change when General Milosevic took over
17 from General Galic.
18 A. I did not. I was a soldier --
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi, I think the problem question should
20 be: Was there a change when General Milosevic took over; and if so,
21 please describe its characteristics.
22 MR. WAESPI: Yes.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: To say "did you see change" is very misleading.
24 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. President, I apologise for that.
25 Q. Was there a change, as you could observe from your position on the
2 A. As I said, I'm not a professional soldier. I am an engineer, a
3 technical person, and that's how I see things in life. I noticed the way
4 the war was waged, and I had the feeling that General Milosevic could
5 exercise more freedom than General Galic had previously. He could go one
6 step further in his command.
7 By the end of the war, my assessment, of course, could have
8 changed, but I was of the view that they used a more systematic approach.
9 They targeted the infrastructure and anything of importance for ordinary
10 life. There were two boiler rooms which had previously been damaged, but
11 in 1995 they put them out of operation completely.
12 The central part of Dobrinja has local heating facility on a roof,
13 and they targeted those heating facilitates and the boiler rooms to put
14 them out of work, out of operation. They also targeted intersections,
15 roads, trying to achieve maximum effect. There was another thing -- was
16 the use of vollies, whereby you would have four, six, or eight shells fall
17 to the same place covering the total distance of 100 metres, simply
18 leveling that place.
19 I think those were the differences. And at the end, I could see
20 that he could exercise more freedom in his command than General Galic had.
21 General Galic had the General Staff above him; but close to the end of the
22 war, I was of the feeling that General Milosevic could make decisions of
23 his own without any approval from the General Staff of the army of
24 Republika Srpska.
25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hadzic. Just one question for clarification. When
1 you say that the intersections were targeted, who was frequenting these
3 A. In 1995, people who had cars began working in Sarajevo. Those
4 more courageous among them used those cars to leave Dobrinja to go to
5 work, and sometimes you would have traffic jams on certain intersections
6 and then such intersections would be shelled.
7 Another example would be the bus line established in 1995 so as to
8 try and loosen up the situation psychologically, to do with the away with
9 the fear of the siege, and then they targeted buses. And another example
10 was the blue road which opened in 1995. If there was a convoy of
11 importance trying to enter Dobrinja, it would encounter artillery, and it
12 would stop the convoy or destroy the cargo as they were trying to get into
13 the city.
14 Q. I'm sorry. Just one other follow up question. Who was in this
15 convoy that tried to enter Dobrinja?
16 A. When the blue road was open, or the blue roads, most convoys were
17 from the civilian sector organised by either the executive or the civilian
18 protection, and those convoys were supposed to bring firewood, food,
19 anything needed by the Sarajevo inhabitants the most.
20 Q. Thank you very much.
21 A. It also included oil.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll take the break now.
23 --- Recess taken at 10.38 a.m.
24 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi, you're on your feet.
1 MR. WAESPI: Yes. Yes, Mr. President. I just have one final
2 question for clarification on Exhibit P333, if I may.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
4 MR. WAESPI:
5 Q. Mr. Hadzic, you marked that building in red which comprises your
6 brigade headquarters; do you remember that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, I think you also said that on this building, on this photo,
9 you cannot see the actual headquarters; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So you just marked the whole building as, you know, the building
12 in which your headquarter was located?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. Were there other people living at that time in the house?
15 A. Yes, my family included.
16 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. That concludes my
17 examination-in-chief. I think it took me about two and a half hours,
18 which includes Your Honours' questions. I have no problem with that. I'm
19 guilty because I overstepped the initial time-period, but just to let Your
20 Honours know that it with would be great if we could complete with
21 cross-examination of this witness today, for various reasons, one includes
22 the health of the witness.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Witness, I shall try not to worsen your health
24 condition, but there is one question that I would like you to clarify a
25 bit more, and that is -- that relates to your account of changes that
1 occurred in Dobrinja when General Milosevic took power in Sarajevo in
2 August 1994.
3 My impression was, after having heard your answer to the
4 Prosecutor's question, that seen from a civilian point of view, the
5 situation actually worsened in Dobrinja after August 1994 in the sense
6 that the attacks were -- became more frequent and became more
8 I want you to tell me if is that correct understanding of the
9 changes that occurred after August 1994, if any.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for your concern about my
11 health. If you allow me, I would like to tell you that my blood sugar
12 level is 14.4, but I will try to do my best.
13 It is true that the situation deteriorated in a certain way, from
14 the psychological point of view. One can already see peace coming on the
15 horizon. We knew that the Serbian army cannot conquer us or enslave us
16 or -- and that something like Srebrenica and Zepa could not be repeated.
17 Upon the arrival of General Milosevic, the liberation action
18 started on Mount Igman and Trebevic plateau, and our army was rather
19 successful in that. However, any loss of territory resulted in punishment
20 of civilians in Dobrinja and elsewhere, and I think that would be the most
21 appropriate answer that I can give to your question.
22 And if you allow me to say one more thing that was just
23 remembered. That was the period when there was tactical gain played by
24 the politicians and the military leadership in view of the forthcoming
25 negotiations. According to some intelligence we had, the Serbian forces,
1 in 1995, had a serious intention of entering the airport and capturing it,
2 irrespective of the fact that UN forces were deployed there. Everybody
3 says in the world that whoever takes possession of an airport actually
4 controls the whole state, so that was an additional element in response to
5 your answer. And thank God that did not happen.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you for your answer. When were Mount Igman
7 and the other mountain liberated exactly.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The offensive was launched sometime
9 in mid-1994 and lasted until almost the end of 1995, July or August 1995.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.
12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:
14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] [Interpretation] You know that
15 the nature of cross-examination is such that I have to take into
16 consideration the health condition of the witness; but at the same time, I
17 cannot refrain from asking certain questions that are inevitable.
18 My learned colleague Mr. Waespi perhaps could have curtailed his
19 examination, and I will do my best to do so as much as possible. However,
20 I have a whole bunch of documents that, in my view, are self-explanatory,
21 and I will have to speak certain explanations from the witness. This is,
22 of course, all going to be under your supervision, and it will be up to
23 you to decide when I should conclude my cross-examination.
24 Q. Mr. Hadzic, I'm Defence counsel for Dragomir Milosevic, and I have
25 a number of questions for you, and I would like some clarifications from
2 His Honour Judge Mindua, I think, asked you something about
3 military police. Is it true that before you took over in July 1992, the
4 command of your brigade, which operated in Dobrinja, that in those months
5 preceding July, you spent as a member of a military police unit?
6 A. During the process of self-organisation and the creation of these
7 voluntary units, I joined a group of men who were in sports; in other
8 words, these men were both patriots and sportsmen. In -- in order for
9 them to be able to communicate, we went to the Ministry of Defence and
10 asked them to register us as voluntary unit, and Mr. Efendic, the then
11 commander of the Territorial Defence, and Minister of Defence Djuko issued
12 a decision granting us the status of military police; and in terms of
13 being recognised as such, we were given 30 credentials of military police.
14 Q. Were you armed?
15 A. We were armed with whatever was available at the time. A few
16 automatic rifles, pistols, and M56 Yugoslav automatic rifles, the Russian
17 drum cartridge, but very few were able to purchase something or acquire
19 Q. Mr. Hadzic, on the 4th of March at 1429, I received a document
20 from the Prosecution and I marked it as DD00-01265. Once you see this
21 document on your monitor, I would like to ask you a few questions. The
22 Committee for Collecting Information on Crime Committed against Humanity
23 and International Law, from January 1998 compiled in Belgrade.
24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have this document
25 be put up, in order for the witness to answer a few questions. The
1 document has been translated into English.
2 Q. If can you see this, this document was drafted in Belgrade by the
3 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. I would like to draw your attention to
4 that fact, and this document was disclosed by the Prosecution.
5 Can you see this document, and can you confirm that I read the
6 cover page correctly?
7 A. You just said that this was a document that came from Belgrade,
8 from an institution in Belgrade.
9 Q. Yes, and that it was a Committee for Compiling Data on Crimes
10 against Humanity and International Law. That's also what I said?
11 A. Yes.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: It would be useful to know under whose auspices
13 this committee did its work. If they were appointed by a particular body,
14 what body was that? Does the document itself tell us that?
15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can give you an
16 answer immediately, and I think you will find it interesting. This is
17 document was draft in 1998 by a committee set up at the time when Slobodan
18 Milosevic was president of state. I received this document from the
19 Prosecution, and I would like to present --
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is it the information that I requested? Is it
21 contained in the document, or are you providing it to me on your own?
22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Please, I received this from the
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. You say so, but you're the person presenting
25 it, not the Prosecution, so you should be prepared. If you're going to
1 relying on this document, we need to know its antecedents.
2 Mr. Waespi.
3 MR. WAESPI: Yes. Perhaps I can shed light on the source of this
5 We received it from the Defence the General Galic. All the ERN
6 numbers that have a Y at the beginning are documents that were given
7 during the Galic case to the Prosecution, and this document has been made
8 available to the Defence of Dragomir Milosevic ages ago, because they
9 received all disclosure in the Galic case.
10 I just saw it over the weekend again, and I showed it to the
11 witness. And I gave it to Defence again because I knew that was the
12 document the Defence is interested in. So I don't know about what this
13 document is about. The Defence in Galic was providing it to us. That's
14 all I'm aware of.
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Tapuskovic, the Serbian front page seems to
16 reveal that the document was prepared by something called the Patriotic
17 League. Who was that?
18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge Harhoff, the
19 state of Federal Republic of Yugoslavia set up a state committee For
20 compiling data on crimes against humanitarian and international law;
21 therefore, this committee was an official body of the Federal Republic of
22 Yugoslavia, and this is an official document.
23 I have would probably not have used it had I not received it a
24 couple of days ago from the Prosecution; but in view of some other
25 information, I think it can be used as an introduction into
1 cross-examination of Mr. Hadzic. So this is an official document produced
2 by the committee of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia related to various
3 crimes and persons.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, proceed.
5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I presume that you were also
6 questioned there; but given that we are looking at this document now, can
7 we move to page 8 in B/C/S and also page 8 in the English version.
8 Q. Let us look at item 3, "Participation of Muslim armed formations
9 in committing the crimes against Serbs of Sarajevo during the war."
10 Can you see that? Can you see that item, that paragraph?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Let me read the first two paragraphs to you:
13 "At the time of the beginning of the war, Muslims and Croats in
14 Sarajevo were ready for a war and the forthcoming mass crimes against the
15 Serbs. The police forces had been almost entirely cleansed of Serbs,
16 especially at the management level, and the illegal military units within
17 the Patriotic League, Green Berets, and others had been reinforced.
18 Within the Territorial Defence and reserve police, there had also been
19 some independent arm the units, which perpetrated mass crimes against
20 Serbs since the beginning of the war."
21 My question is: Were your police forces that you were a member of
22 involved in the commission of these kind of crimes?
23 A. May I go back to the document that we're looking at it? It is
24 interesting, Mr. Tapuskovic, to look at the year when this document was
25 drafted. That's 1998. It is also interesting that it came from Belgrade,
1 and I am familiar with this document. I saw it on the internet, but
2 interestingly, both this document and this committee had been set up after
3 the ICTY had been established and indictments issued against Serbs for the
4 crimes committed in the former Yugoslavia.
5 Therefore, since Serbia is the country with a rule of law, I
6 suppose that certain people were tasked with preparing this kind of
7 document as a kind of response or to put up accusations against people who
8 did nothing. As for my unit, which was composed of 30 men, did only
9 honourable work in Dobrinja.
10 Q. Thank you. Let us look at paragraph 2, the last sentence of
11 paragraph 2, which reads --
12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note: We cannot see it on the
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, just a minute. The English is not
15 on the screen; and since you're reading it, it's helpful to the
16 interpreters to have it on the screen.
17 May we have the English on the screen. It's there now. Yes.
19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. So paragraph 2, Mr. Hadzic: "And Serbs were killed and tortured
21 both during the forced trench and tunnel digging and in other places and
22 particularly under the Trebevic mountain."
23 Do you know anything about this since you were a member of this
25 A. The Serbs were not being killed or tortured in Dobrinja; neither
1 were they digging the tunnel that you mention. There were Serbs, though,
2 in the civilian protection who were digging these communication trenches,
3 but they were not killed. They were treated as other residents of
5 Q. Thank you.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, assuming that this statement in
7 the report is true, and that Serbs were in fact tortured in Dobrinja in
8 the tunnel killing, how would that affect the charges that the accused
9 must answer? In other words, how does it affect the criminal liability of
10 the accused?
11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can explain that,
12 and we shall come back to that issue many times during this trial. The
13 Serbs were defending themselves in the places where they lived,
14 particularly to avoid what was happening to them in 1992. And the whole
15 point of this conflict, as far as they were concerned, was to save their
16 dear lives and to avoid what was happening in 1992. That was probably
17 their primary reason.
18 That was a paranoic fear of what happened in 1992, and we shall
19 demonstrate that was the underlying motive of all their actions, in
20 addition to political and other reasons as well that permeated this
22 In the next passage --
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: You're saying that the --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: You're saying that whatever actions the Serbs
1 took were essentially of a defensive character?
2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, and particularly at the
3 time that the relevant time that we're discussing when they were much
4 weaker, even in terms of the quantity of weapons they possessed.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, always remember if you introduce evidence,
6 it must relevant. It must be evidence that relates to the charges in the
7 indictment and, in particular, evidence that relates to the criminal
8 liability of the accused in one way or the other.
9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there is mention in
10 the third paragraph of the people who spearheaded these actions, including
11 and also --
12 Q. But, first of all, I would like Mr. Hadzic to tell me if he took
13 part in all that at the time.
14 A. Mr. Tapuskovic, your statement that the Serbs were engaged is not
15 true. In Sarajevo, whenever the Serbs were unable to keep these
16 territories following the political instructions that they received, they
17 preferred to leave Sarajevo. The only Serbs who remained behind were the
18 ones who loved Sarajevo.
19 Q. Thank you. Let us look at page 12 now. Can you first tell me:
20 During the whole war, including the relevant period, were there over 100
21 camps in the Territorial Defence of Sarajevo where Serbs were detained and
22 taken away to be executed? Yes or no.
23 A. I don't know anything about that, but I claim that there were no
24 camps in Sarajevo. There were no camps in Sarajevo as far as I could
25 deduce from the footage shown on TV. There were only camps run by Serbs,
1 but there were no camps in Sarajevo.
2 Q. Can you please look at page 12 of this report, item 3.2, which
3 mentions you. Item 3.7 mentions your name, and it also mentions Dobrinja.
4 It reads: "In this suburb, the prison was based in the Baltazar cafe held
5 by the members of Dragan Vikic's unit. There's also mention of Stela, and
6 it says that you were very close to Alija Izetbegovic. However, there
7 were also camps, Poljoo Prema cellar, garages, and all the rest of that
8 was under your control. Yes or no?
9 A. Tell me which period are we talking about.
10 Q. Including the period when you were in the police, and the relevant
11 period that we're discussing here today.
12 A. Mr. Tapuskovic, these allegations here are not true. I know that
13 before the war there was a Baltazar cafe, highly reputed cafe. It was
14 close to the police administration building, but I don't know that there
15 was ever a camp there.
16 Next thing, I don't think anything about Stela camp in Dobrinja.
17 There was a Stela camp in Vogosca, and I know that this is where the Serbs
18 imprisoned Bosniaks.
19 And the third allegation, which says Hadzic was also in very close
20 contact with Alija Izetbegovic, I can say that I am proud to have known
21 our late president; and through my contacts and associations with him, I
22 only became a better person. I could only learn good things, not evil
23 things from him, and I am very happy to have known him.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can you tell us about your relationship with
25 Mr. Izetbegovic. How did that come about and what form did it take?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To cut it short, I met
2 Mr. Izetbegovic before the war. We were not close friends; acquaintances
3 rather. During the first democratic election, I assisted his party to
4 win, in a way. And President Izetbegovic held that in high regard. After
5 that, he offered me a position within the executive, but I refused. I
6 told I have a good job, and I have no need to get into all that. This is
7 how old our friendship was.
8 He also expressed his concern during the time when the situation
9 in Dobrinja was the worst, and when it was psychologically the most
10 difficult for the population. At that time, he came at Dobrinja telling
11 people to try and stay there and not to leave, and I will never forget
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.
14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Another thing concerning this document, you don't even know of the
16 camp called Sunce, the Sun. It was under your direct control. You don't
17 know of that either?
18 A. Mr. Tapuskovic, as I said when testifying in the Galic case, I
19 knew of -- of something else which was called Granap Sunce, the Sun. I
20 don't know of any camp of such name. There was a detention for the
21 members of the Territorial Defence, but I don't know who was held there.
22 We were not part of that system.
23 Q. But there was a detention centre there?
24 A. It was a military formation. The Territorial Defence had an
25 independent battalion within which it had its own detention for soldiers,
1 those who tried to cross the runway; who smuggled; those who got drunk or
2 acted the against the rules of service or the military hierarchy.
3 Q. Another thing. Just below where it is mentioned that were in
4 close contact with Milosevic, under 3-8, it say, Himzo Cesko, who was a
5 policeman before the war in Sarajevo, had his own sniping team targeting
6 Serbian civilians from high-rises in Sarajevo, such as the
7 Elektroprivreda, the Hotel Bristol, and other buildings. Are you familiar
8 with that, even outside the scope of the relevant time that we're
9 discussing now?
10 A. I found it ridiculous that you ask that question. I was in
11 Dobrinja. We were under siege, and I don't know of many things in the
12 city, and I don't know this person mentioned here.
13 Q. Did you at least hear about the tactics they employed, that those
14 policemen with the assistance of the MUP assumed positions in those
15 high-rises, and then snipers were advised as to the location of Serb
16 civilians, so as to target them. That would take place after such
17 civilians would go through a checkpoint, and then it would be radioed to
18 the snipers to target them?
19 A. I don't know of it.
20 Q. Thank you, Witness.
21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask to tender this
22 document, being DD00-01265.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D104.
25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Very well. I respect your position concerning this document since
2 it originated from the FRY, and I'm not trying to put here that it was
3 proven. However, is there a proceedings against you before the cantonal
4 court in Sarajevo, a biforked [as interpreted] proceedings?
5 A. Mr. Tapuskovic, during the last elections, I was on the federal
6 list of candidates for a deputy. The court provided their approval for
7 each and every person on the list. Had there been any proceedings
8 instituted against me, my name could not have been there.
9 I don't know of any investigations or proceedings before either
10 the cantonal or any other court, which is confirmed by the example I
12 Q. In order to place your name on the federal electoral list, you
13 have to provide a certificate by the cantonal court, where now its
14 proceedings are taking place against you and that you have no previous
15 criminal record.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, in the question that you asked
17 something has been translated as a "biforked proceeding." "Biforked
18 proceedings." What is it that you have in mind here?
19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] There are two separate criminal
20 proceedings against Mr. Hadzic. I was imprecise or rather the
21 interpretation was erroneous.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. We have his answer.
23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Mr. Hadzic, I never understood politics; hence, I'm asking you
25 directly. A document under the number KT 326 from 2006. In any case, it
1 is KT 326/95. Although, that may be incorrect.
2 In any case, is there an investigation or proceedings against you
3 for a murder of a Bosniak by the name of Rajif Kordic? Yes or no?
4 A. This is the first time I hear of it, and I hear it from you,
5 Mr. Tapuskovic.
6 Q. Very well. Is there an investigation against you for the murder
7 of 15 Muslims? Was there a criminal report submitted for that crime
8 claiming that you participated in their killing; whereas, it was portrayed
9 as if the Serbs killed them. One of the people involved was Rajif Kordic.
10 A. No.
11 Q. Is there a proceedings against you for the murder of 30 Serbian
12 inhabitants who were killed digging trenches, as was stated in the
13 previous document?
14 A. No, or rather, I don't know about it. I guess the court would
15 have let me know.
16 Q. Very well. I have another piece of information --
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, in relation to all these
18 questions, which are so specific as they relate to legal proceedings
19 against the accused, do you have at hand the various court documents with
20 these charges?
21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I received that information a few
22 days ago, and I will certainly forward it to the Bench. These are court
23 documents, these being criminal records or investigations or criminal
24 reports. I don't have them right now, but I will be in a position to hand
25 them over. I just wanted to ask the witness whether he is familiar with
1 any of it.
2 Just one more thing --
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, before you say one more thing, I will say
4 that I will take a very dim view of what you have done in putting these
5 allegations to the witness if you don't have supporting documents. I see
6 this as different from the usual case where a Defence counsel will put to
7 a witness a certain point of view on the basis of instructions that he
8 has. And in presenting his case, in presenting the Defence case, the
9 counsel will adduce that evidence.
10 But what kind of weight would you expect us to attach to this line
11 of questioning if you don't have that documentation to put to the witness?
12 I will attach very little weight to it, and I take a very dim view of that
13 kind of approach. So I expect you to produce the court documents with
14 these allegations.
15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is very difficult
16 to position oneself in a case like this. But in any case, I will have
17 those documents. And although the witness will not be here anymore, I'm
18 sure I am not mistaken. Since he was allowed to talk about rumours in the
19 examination-in-chief, I think this should be allowed as well. These are
20 not rumours. These are matters before the cantonal court.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: This is on an entirely different plane. These
22 are serious allegations. This has nothing to do with a rumour. If you
23 have been instructed as part of your Defence case that this witness has
24 been charged by courts in this country with certain crimes, I would expect
25 you to have the court documents verifying this. And I expected you to
1 have it now, not in two or three days times when the witness is not here
2 to address them.
3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] You are right, Your Honour. I
4 was trying to tell you that we have an investigation under way, but at the
5 same time we are very limited in resources in terms of personnel. I see
6 that you attach great importance to these documents, and later on I will
7 try to introduce such documents through another witness, if I may.
8 I just wanted to put another thing before the witness, and I am
9 sure he knows something about that. It has to do with a magazine.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, I do attach importance to it
11 because counsel has a responsibility to follow certain ethical standards
12 in presenting his case. Responsible counsel doesn't simply put
13 allegations to a witness that he cannot back up. It's not as though you
14 will present this evidence when you present the case for the accused.
15 That I understand.
16 But I see this as being different. You're saying you're told that
17 this gentleman has been charged in his country with particular offences.
18 You must show him the charges. It's not sufficient merely to -- to say
19 that you have been informed. That's not the action of responsible
22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I accept everything you said.
23 You're completely right. But from this moment on, I will rely solely on
24 documents and nothing else. According to the information received from
25 Mr. Waespi on the 4th of March, there is a statement given to the OTP. It
1 is document DD00-1263, and I would like to put it to the witness for
3 Q. You see the document. Somewhere in the middle you talked about
4 your area of responsibility. You also said something you said a minute
5 ago. The witness noticed that General Milosevic was more subtle when
6 choosing targets of shelling and sniping activity.
7 There was another thing you said about snipers, and I want the to
8 show you another document that has been marked for identification. The
9 number was D990682. And before the end of my cross-examination, I will go
10 back to the snipers many a time. However, you told us you had no snipers.
11 This is an order by General Legit Idodjic [phoen], dated the 14th
12 of February, whereby he says that "due to the technical need of the unit
13 in order for them to carry out combat activities in full, I record that
14 all brigades are to secure" --
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi, you have a point.
16 MR. WAESPI: Yes. I don't think the witness said they we didn't
17 have snipers. We discussed at the length that sniping rifles that were
18 used. Maybe it is a different term. Maybe they're called sometimes
19 marksmen, but I don't recall that the witness said that they didn't have
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: That is strictly correct, Mr. Tapuskovic. The
22 witness testified that they didn't have as sophisticated weapons as the
23 other side did, but he never said that they didn't have snipers.
24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It has to do with that. I was
1 Q. What you said has to do with the document. In the document, it
2 states that "all brigades are to secure the hand over and transport of
3 three sniping rifles to the warehouse department of the 1st Corps. That
4 means all brigades.
5 "Secondly, the aforementioned weaponry need to be fully
6 operational, and unit commanders are to notify me in person as to
7 implementation of tasks."
8 These are sniping rifles which are in full operational order ready
9 to be used. In that regard, this does not tally with what the witness
11 My question is: Does he know of this order and whether his
12 brigade received such sniping rifles?
13 A. Mr. Tapuskovic, you've read it out yourself. The command of the
14 corps demanded the brigade to hand over sniping rifles if they had any.
15 Do you have a document that would state that we indeed handed them over?
16 This is what the corps command asked from all the brigades to hand over
17 sniping rifles. Where did we hand them over, or who did we hand it over
18 to, those modern sniping rifles as you say? Maybe in order to fulfil
19 this order, we took three hunting rifles with binoculars and handed them
20 over, although I don't remember any such thing.
21 Q. I understand what you're telling us.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is there a translation to this document; if not,
23 may I just ask the interpreter to translate number 1 and number 2 in the
25 THE INTERPRETER: "I hereby order, under 1, all brigades are to
1 secure the hand over and transport of three sniping rifles to the
2 warehouse department of LOB," Interpreter's note: we don't know what the
3 abbreviation is, "of the 1st Corps-Krupa."
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Does it say "of three sniping rifles." The hand
5 over and transport of three sniping rifles?
6 THE INTERPRETER: Of three sniping rifles each. My colleague is
7 telling me that the "LOB" means logistics base.
8 Mr. Tapuskovic, just said "each of the brigades."
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: I am sorry. Can you read it again to me. I'm a
10 little puzzled by the very specific reference to "three sniping rifles."
11 THE INTERPRETER: "All brigades are to secure the hand over and
12 transport of three sniping rifles each to the warehouse department of the
13 logistics base of the 1st Corps-Krupa."
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: What does number 2 say?
15 THE INTERPRETER: "The aforementioned weaponry needs to be fully
16 operational, and the unit commanders are to report to me personally as to
17 the implementation of tasks. Deadline: The 17th of February, 1994, 2400
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Hadzic, number 1, the interpretation that we
20 received would seem to suggest that the -- the author of this order
21 believed that there existed three sniping rifles and that he was requiring
22 that these be handed over.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with all due respect, I
24 don't think you understood item 1 properly. In this order, it is stated
25 that "all brigades are to hand over three sniping rifles each to the corps
1 command." It would be exceptionally clear and most interesting to see
2 another document to go with this commander. That document should testify
3 about the implementation of this order so as to see what weaponry was
4 handed over to the 1st Corps by each of the brigades. Here we have nine
5 brigades mentioned. It should have amounted to a total of about 30 rifles
6 if they had any. Had they -- if they had any, they were supposed to hand
7 them over to the 1st Corps for their perusal. That's how I read it.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why three sniping rifles each? Why not just any
9 sniping rifles? Hand over any and all sniping rifles that are in your
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no comment about the number
12 3. I don't know why the staff commander mentioned three and not something
13 else. It is quite clear to me that he himself didn't know what each of
14 the brigades had and what type of weapons they had.
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Just for clarification, you said that under your
16 brigade, no such rifles were delivered to the 1st Corps because you did
17 not have any such weapons. Is that correct?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, I did not say we did not hand
19 over any, but we may have provided the next closest thing. It could have
20 been a hunting rifle or a carbine with an optical sight that might have
21 met the needs of this order. I didn't see we didn't hand over any. I
22 simply don't know. If we could see a follow-up to this document, an
23 overview of what was handed over by the brigades and what type of weaponry
24 was handed over, then we would be able to establish if indeed we handed
25 over anything and what.
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. Your answer is very interesting,
2 because it seems to me that you are interpreting the order to imply that
3 this was an attempt to reallocate sniping rifles from the brigades to the
4 1st Corps. So it was merely a question of bringing some weapons in from
5 the brigades to the 1st Corps where these weapons were needed. Is that a
6 correct understanding of your interpretation of this order?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct. Probably the
8 corps command needed these weapons for some activity that I know nothing
10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Mr. Hadzic, item 2 does not speak about ordinary weapons, but it
12 says that "the above mentioned weapons must be fully operational, and unit
13 commanders shall report to me personally about the implementation of the
14 task." According to this order, it means that these snipers were supposed
15 to be in perfect working order?
16 A. If the order specified that PSPs and the Argentinean rifles were
17 to be handed over, then I would understand it. But as I understand and
18 read this, this could have applied to virtually anything. You could hand
19 over whatever you wanted.
20 Q. That is what you say, but the order reads differently, and it says
21 "in perfect working order."
22 A. A hunting rifle, a hunting sniper can also be in perfect working
24 Q. The Zrak factory that you mentioned, did it manufacture throughout
25 the war primarily sniper rifles and optical devices for the BH army?
1 A. Probably you should have more information about this than I do.
2 As far as I know, Zrak manufactured only optical devices because only some
3 of them -- the machines and workforce remained there. The rest of them
4 went away or joined the army. Only a few people remained working there,
5 and the factory was virtually closed down. They could have probably did
6 some repair work on optical devices; however, there were no technical
7 possibilities or capacity for the Zrak to manufacture any weapons during
8 the war.
9 Q. Let us go back now to this information. In addition to what you
10 said about sniping, you also said that -- that under the control of
11 Dragomir Milosevic, the activities were more subtle and more precise and
12 more -- and definitely more dangerous than during the time of General
13 Galic. Is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. By that you imply and include also the incident when the Simone
16 Bolivar school was hit and the TV building as well; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You also include here the incidents when a sniper killed two or
19 three people with one shot.
20 A. That would only make sense.
21 Q. Thank you very much.
22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have this exhibit
23 DD00-1263 into evidence as Defence Exhibit, please.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] And also DD00- -- excuse me.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please give that a number.
2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Apparently, it's an MFI so we can now admit
5 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D99 now.
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: What was the old MFI number?
8 THE REGISTRAR: The old MFI was MFI 99.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: And you have another one, Mr. Tapuskovic?
10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] 0682.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is 0682?
13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It's an entirely different
15 document. It's DD00-1263, the information provided by the Prosecution.
16 It's an entirely different document.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D105.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Before I proceed with other
20 documents, I would like to address the statement made by this witness of
21 24th and 25th of October. It's DD00-1083. Let's start from page 7 of --
22 oh, no. Yes.
23 Q. Is this your statement? There's a signature on the left?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Let's start from bullet paragraph relating to the defence tactics
1 of the Dobrinja Brigade, and that's on page 7.
2 It starts by you saying that you read a number of books, military
3 books, and that you also read about the biography of General Kutusov?
4 A. No, except General Kutusov.
5 Q. Then you also made reference to Churchill; is that right?
6 A. I can't answer that question. I had to read these books in
7 order to upgrade my military knowledge. We found a book written by
8 Mr. Churchill about how the British defended London during World War II,
9 and this set up of survival for London we copied and applied it in
10 Dobrinja in order for to us to survive as well.
11 Q. Did you ever study anything to do with the military organisation
12 of the Yugoslav People's Army?
13 A. I didn't have any need to do that because I had trained officers
14 on my staff who were able to provide this expertise.
15 Q. And from these officers you received certain information; is that
17 A. No. They just made certain propositions and proposals. If I
18 found them to be sensible and reasonable, I accept them. If not, I
19 wouldn't accept them.
20 Q. Were you familiar with the matters contained in the instruction
21 on working maps how certain placement of artillery and other weapons are
22 to be marked within the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
23 A. No, I was not interested in those kind of markings. I was only
24 interested in survival and maintaining life. There were shortages of gas
25 and everything else. We had to find a way to defend ourselves and how to
1 bring all these 27.000 people until the end of the war, and to protect
2 them from genocide.
3 Q. In your working military maps, how did you mark certain positions
4 of yours? Both firing position and command position.
5 A. Until I can see a map, I wouldn't be able to tell you.
6 Q. Can you just tell me this about the mountain brigade: You said
7 that a mountain brigade is something named in that way or described in
8 that way according to the number of troops; is that correct?
9 A. I said that as far as I know, a mountain brigade, on paper, is a
10 brigade that should, as per establishment, have a certain number of men
11 and equipment?
12 Q. Did you ever go up to Mojmilo hill where you held positions? Were
13 you a mountain brigade at that time as well, because you were on a hill
14 and that's why you were called a mountain brigade?
15 A. I don't think that's true. As a brigade we never went up the
16 Mojmilo hill, but we, rather, in 1992, cut off Mojmilo and closed the
17 circle in order to prevent the Serbian forces of penetrating our area.
18 By the way, a mountain brigade is not called after a mountain or
19 a hill. It has its name according to establishment.
20 Q. So you claim that at the relevant period, when Dragomir Milosevic
21 was the commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, a part of Mojmilo was
22 under your control and the other part of Mojmilo was under the control of
23 Dragomir Milosevic and his troops.
24 A. No. I'm saying that a part of Mojmilo was no-man's land- that
25 was on the left-hand side where the water reservoir was- until that time
1 when, in 1995, we connected trenches with the 101st Brigade and closed
2 the circle. The right-hand side of Mojmilo was under the control of
3 Mr. Milosevic as far as Vraca.
4 Q. In other words, both the VRS was on Mojmilo.
5 A. It has its lines on the peaks of the hills that were under their
7 Q. Therefore, you are saying that they were not at the foot of the
9 A. They were always on the other side. At the foot of the hill
10 there is one of the barracks in Lukavica. Serbian forces had held the
11 Mojmilo hill, and at the foot of it, there was the former JNA barracks in
12 Lukavica, one of the two that they had there.
13 Q. Is it fair to say, then, that this barracks was completely below
14 or at the foot of Mojmilo hill?
15 A. I don't understand your question. What do you want to hear from
17 Q. Thank you very much. I have heard enough.
18 Let us go back to the statement, and I have to read a part
19 concerning the defensive tactics of Dobrinja Brigade. At page 7,
20 paragraph 3, you say as follows:
21 "Using the British manuals as a guide, we constructed trenches 2
22 metres deep all around the perimeter of Dobrinja, except the portion
23 facing the airport. The trenches were built with a fire step, with a
24 protective firing position, a drainage channel, and were deep enough to
25 protect the soldiers from view and direct fire."
1 And at the end you say that the trenches were sandbagged and
2 riveted. Is that correct?
3 A. Everything is correct except that we didn't have sand and we
4 didn't reinforce them with stone but rather with -- we put slabs at the
5 bottom of trenches to make walking easier. Dobrinja, geographically
6 speaking, is a water source area. Every 1.5 or 2 metres deep you run
7 into water. Whenever you start digging a trench, after 1 or 2 metres,
8 you discover water. And that was one of the reasons why we used this
9 British warfare manual, where the British used to dig trenches in moors,
10 and from that we learned how to drain the trenches.
11 So at the elevation of 50 centimetres, we use the slabs, to place
12 them there to facilitate walking, and to build the communication
13 trenches. If we didn't do that, we would be constantly standing or
14 walking in water.
15 Q. Thank you. I'm interested in this last sentence, which
16 says: "The trenches were sandbagged and were reinforced with stone." You
17 said you didn't have sand. How do you explain and account for this being
18 stated in your statement? Is that correct or not?
19 A. There were no -- there was no sand lining of the trenches.
20 However, the soldiers were protected with bags filled with all kinds of
22 Q. Let us look at the last paragraph on page 7, which says: "Company
23 HQ were in buildings nearby in warm shelters so that they could retain
24 command and control. A long trench was constructed starting on Mojmilo,
25 zigzagging down the hill."
1 Is that correct? Is that correct?
2 A. A long trench was constructed, zigzagging down the hill.
3 Q. Maybe this is a misinterpretation.
4 A. There was no trench on Mojmilo. However, there is a natural
5 depression resembling a trench where -- which could provide access to
6 Mojmilo. However, a long trench was built on Mojmilo. It was -- it
7 probably refers to the one dug out in 1995, which connected our two
8 units, in order to prevent precipitation entering the trenches. And that
9 is why we built it in a zigzag shape, as far as the position of the 101st
11 Q. I don't understand you now. First you said it's not correct; now
12 you're saying it is.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just continue. Continue.
14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation].
15 Q. First, you said there was no zigzag trench.
16 A. This zigzag trench was dug out in early 1995, at the same time
17 when the blue road was opened.
18 Q. At the time of Dragomir Milosevic?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Look a little bit down there, where you say that there were
21 firing positions in buildings. In other words, you had firing positions
22 in civilian facilitates.
23 A. Mr. Tapuskovic, those buildings were abandoned and burned. There
24 were no civilians there. On the edges of Dobrinja neighbourhood, all
25 buildings were burned. There was no one living there. In Dobrinja 5
1 alone, 880 flats were destroyed. During the war, in the whole of
2 Dobrinja, 3.000 flats were destroyed and 2.000 were rendered
3 uninhabitable. All these buildings on the edges of the suburb were
4 shelled and destroyed, and there was no one else staying there apart from
5 the soldiers.
6 Q. But you did have firing positions that were situated in civilian
7 residential areas.
8 A. If you listened or looked carefully on the map of our trenches,
9 you could have seen that they followed natural configuration of the
10 terrain, avoiding all residential buildings. If it ran into a building,
11 we had to maintain this line, but these buildings were vacated. That is
12 where we put our guards in order to prevent the Serbian forces from
13 coming in.
14 What did you except us to do? That we did not have soldiers in
15 those buildings, that would be gaps in our defence line.
16 Q. I'm saying the same as you are; that it is true that you had your
17 firing positions in these buildings.
18 A. Yes, in the abandoned buildings, and I think that's very
20 Q. How about the roofs of the buildings? Did you have camouflaged
21 weapons? And I'm referring to your HQ building.
22 A. What kind of roof are you referring to?
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, just say what kind of roof you are
24 referring to and then we'll stop. And just before the break, I'll give a
25 decision on a Prosecution motion.
1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] .
2 Q. I'm referring to the building near the Simone Bolivar school
3 where their command post was. On the roof of that building, or inside
4 the building, were there any weapons and firing positions?
5 A. There were no weapons.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: What's the answer to that?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were no weapons or firing
8 positions in that building.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll stop here for the moment, and I'll now give
10 an a decision on the Prosecution motion filed on the 20th of February for
11 the admission of written witness statements of five witnesses, including
12 Rupert Smith, pursuant to Rule 92 ter. The Defence takes no position on
13 the motion but requests that it be allocated reasonable time for
14 cross-examination. The Chamber will only address the Prosecution's
15 request for the admission of Mr. Smith's statement. We'll give a decision
16 on the other witnesses at a later date.
17 The Chamber grants the Prosecution motion, admits the witness
18 statement of Rupert Smith into evidence upon fulfilment of the conditions
19 set out in Rule 92 ter. The time originally estimated for this witness's
20 testimony by the Prosecution was five hours. The Chamber notes, however,
21 that in its motion, the Prosecution estimates that the overall length of
22 time required is two and a half hours. The Chamber notes the significance
23 of the testimony of the witness and that the Prosecution intends to refer
24 to 21 exhibits during the testimony of this witness.
25 In the result, the Chamber will allocate one hour and a half to
1 the Prosecution for examination-in-chief and three hours to the Defence
2 for cross-examination.
3 We'll now take the break
4 --- Recess taken at 12.21 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 12.44 p.m.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi.
7 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. President.
8 I obviously don't want to, you know, kind of negatively to refer
9 to your decision to allocate time; but just to reiterate that, it is
10 important that this witness finishes today. And in relation to General
11 Smith, equally, we hope that we can finish him tomorrow morning. I can
12 tell that you examination-in-chief will be less than we had originally
13 planned with General Smith. It will be around an hour, hour and 15
14 minutes, and it will be around half the documents that you mentioned, so
15 around ten documents.
16 So, again, we hope that we can finish with this witness today, and
17 tomorrow's witness tomorrow.
18 Thank you, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, there is something that may run contrary to
20 that, because have I been informed that the Victims and Witness Protection
21 Unit has expressed some concern about the health of the witness.
22 So, Mr. Hadzic -- Witness, I'm addressing you. I understand that
23 you may be having some problems with your health. You referred to your
24 blood sugar, and I understand that it may be very high. And I am to let
25 you know that if you wish to have a break, all you do have do is request
1 it and I will grant it, because your health obviously comes first. Do you
2 understand that.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is true that my blood sugar
4 levels are high, but I will try to get through.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Let us continue.
6 Mr. Tapuskovic.
7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have to respect
8 that a person is either capable of incapable of testifying. We were
9 warned of that before this witness started testifying, and I would have
10 excepted that Mr. Waespi would have paid attention to that as well. I, on
11 my part, will do my best to respect that; but if the witness is unable to
12 continue, of course, I have to abide by it.
13 We can pause at any moment, but some things must be discussed here
14 before you. I will try to pose my questions the way that the witness, if
15 possible, could answer with a mere yes or no. That's what I will try to
16 do, Mr. Hadzic.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.
18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. So as not to dwell on the topic that we discussed before the break
20 any longer, in your statement on page 11, you speak of the tunnel which
21 was dug under the airport runway. That is page 11, and I believe in the
22 English it is the same.
23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 11. Yes.
24 Q. In this chapter about the creation and use of the Dobrinja-Butmir
25 tunnel, we can look at the first sentence. You say that you had a cannon,
1 no, rather a tank up there at Zuc. Is it correct that it remained at Zuc
2 throughout the war?
3 A. It is correct that there was a tank, but it wasn't at Zuc
5 Q. It changed position?
6 A. I don't know where it was, but it was located at the Jusuf Dzonlic
7 barracks. That's where it under went maintenance. It was rather damaged
8 since it was pulled down from Mojmilo hill; and when Zuc was being
9 defended, it was put up there. But due to inability to operate it
10 properly, it was hit that bay by a Maljutka rocket and rendered
12 Q. If I understood probably, you said when there was an offensive,
13 and here it says that there was defence?
14 A. All the time there was combat at Zuc. The Serb forces were at the
15 outskirts of the settlement, at the foot of Zuc hill. Basically,
16 throughout the war, the Bosnian army was trying to push the Serbian forces
17 as from far away from the settlement as possible, so as to protect the
19 Q. Thank you. As regards the tunnel, if things were as stated here,
20 perhaps you can tell me the following, and you can say, yes or no. I will
21 read out the fourth paragraph:
22 "The tunnel was officially opened on 30th of July 1993, after
23 three months of digging. It had been dug through a very waterlogged area
24 which should have been impossible. It was improved as time wept by with
25 the installation of rail tracks, timber revetting, telephone
1 communications to either end, and eventually fuel pipes and a six-kilowatt
2 electricity capable. The tunnel was 860 metres long and had been dug by
3 hand in shifts."
4 Is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. "Until December 1993, we were in charge of the Dobrinja end of the
7 tunnel, and the 4th Brigade was in charge of the Butmir end. After that,
8 the 1st Corps took over control of the tunnel. I don't think the enemy
9 every found out exactly where the tunnel entrance was. At the Dobrinja
10 end, there were two entrances in adjacent garages. One was for the railed
11 section, which went under the garage, through a trench under the road, and
12 to the actual tunnel entrance in a house near the airport. The other one
13 was for people on foot."
14 Is that correct?
15 A. You are talking about the final version of the tunnel, and that
16 was so.
17 Q. First and foremost, I have in mind the times between the 10th of
18 August, 1994 until the 31st of November, 1995, because that is the time
19 material for the indictment of Dragomir Milosevic and that was the time
20 during which he held his function.
21 A. Okay.
22 Q. Perhaps we can discuss a military matter now. Your brigade was a
23 part of the 12th Division; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. The entire 12th Division was in Sarajevo itself.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. The 1st Corps of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina had three
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. The 14th Division had its location in Tarcin, in the area of
6 Igman; is that correct?
7 A. Their command post was in Tarcin and their area of responsibility
8 was Igman.
9 Q. The 16th Division was in Vares, Nisici, Breza, Visocor, up to
10 Kobilica Vaya Kiskodec [phoen]; is that correct?
11 A. It should be.
12 Q. Can we say that the 1st Corps comprised those three divisions; the
13 12th, the 14th, and the 16th?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I finally received
16 a translation. It is a Defence document DD00-0121. It is a report on the
17 situation of the 1st Corps and the other corps, and the document stems
18 from the archives of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. This has been
19 translated, and I kindly ask for the document to be brought on screen, so
20 that I can ask the witness a few things about it. It is DD00-0121.
21 It seems we have another problem with e-court. This is my most
22 important document, and I put it in two days ago.
23 It has a translation into English. I can show it to you. It has
24 been translated.
25 Q. Mr. Hadzic, have a look. I have such documents for each month,
1 but this one is for the 24th of August, 1994 by the army of
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina signed by the chief of administration, Hadim
3 Majbregolic [phoen]. It is the personnel section and the section for
4 legal affairs. Do you see the document?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you see what it says. Based on the orders -- pursuant to the
7 order of the RBH OSSVK, strictly confidential, dated the 5th of February,
8 1994. "We hereby send you a report on manning levels as at 1 August
9 1994." Have I read that correctly?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. In your knowledge, is that the time when Dragomir Milosevic took
12 over command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?
13 A. I don't know what the exact date. You are probably more away of
14 it than I.
15 Q. Thank you. It says here "manning levels of the army of
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina on 1 August 1994. Was this followed? The SVK with
17 headquarters support units, 1639, the 1st Corps, 62.899 fighters." Is
18 that correct?
19 A. As it says.
20 Q. The 2nd Corps over 63.000; The 3rd Corps, 35; the 4th Corps, and
21 son on and so forth. Total 227.256. Is that so?
22 A. That's what it says.
23 Q. In Sarajevo and around Sarajevo in the three divisions, there were
24 62.000 people; is that correct?
25 A. That's what the documents states.
1 Q. And we have the age breakdown; younger than 35, 135.000; is that
3 A. That's what the document says.
4 Q. Between 36 and 40, 37.000; between 41 and 45, 23.000; and over 45,
5 as many as 19.640. There were women, six and a half thousand. If it is
6 as stated in the document, it means that the 1st Corps was the most
7 numerous. Is that correct?
8 A. The 2nd Corps had more according to the data shown; 63.000.
9 Q. Yes, I'm sorry. Out of the 62.000, in Sarajevo itself, there were
10 over 40.000. Is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Together with the police, there were around 60.000 armed people.
13 Were you familiar with that?
14 A. They were not armed. The figure was 60.000, but we don't know
15 about the arms. I don't think 100 per cent of them were armed.
16 Q. You are trying to tell us that while Dragomir Milosevic was in
17 command not all 62.000 were armed.
18 A. I'm trying to say that my brigade was never fully armed. We
19 always had more men than arms. There was always a certain percentage, a
20 degree of people being armed in the corps; and probably in the corps, you
21 can find the documents showing the exact percentage of the people armed;
22 the statistical data about the manning levels of the Bosnia-Herzegovina
24 Q. Can you tell me at least whether at the time of the offensive in
25 June, there were still people who participated in the offensive without
1 any weapons?
2 A. Which offensive do you mean?
3 Q. The 15th of June, 1995.
4 A. At the Igman-Trebevica plateau? At all front lines. You have to
5 be specific line. You have to tell me which offensive. I cannot respond
6 to an open-ended question.
7 Q. I am getting there. I have five such orders, but I'm interested
8 in the offensive that began on the 5th of June and ended somewhat later
9 that year. Was there a single person participating in the offensive
10 without a weapon?
11 A. I'm asking you, again. Was that the offensive called the
12 deblocking of the city of Sarajevo.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi.
14 MR. WAESPI: Just an admonition that there are pauses made between
15 the questions an answers, and if the English translation could be shown,
16 the complete English translation. Because there is on the B/C/S version a
17 paragraph at the end above the signature block, and I'd like to see that
18 in English. And just for Your Honours understanding, this is the first
19 time that I see this document and certainly an English translation of
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please observe, Witness and Mr. Tapuskovic, a
22 pause between question and answer.
23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] You will have an opportunity to
24 see the document.
25 Q. However, I had the offensive called offensive T or Tekbir in mind,
1 Mr. Hadzic. We had the 3rd and the 7th Corps participating in that one,
2 not only the first one, the 1st Corps, but also the 3rd and the 7th with
3 all of their troops participating in that June offensive. That is the
4 offensive I had in mind.
5 A. Mr. Tapuskovic, the offensive that you are mentioning, Tekbir, I
6 don't know that it was called that. I know it was called offensive for
7 lifting the blockade of the city of Sarajevo; and it is true that in this
8 attempt to lift the blockade from the city of Sarajevo, all corps of the
9 BH army took place. And for your information, I would like to tell that
10 this offensive failed. Our forces were defeated and the blockade
11 remained -- of Sarajevo remained in place.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. So it is not disputable that the total numerical strength of the
15 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps was 18.000?
16 A. Mr. Tapuskovic, that's what you say. I don't know about that.
17 Q. That's what the indictment says. These men who were in
18 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps managed to defend themselves from nearly 200.000
19 men who were attacking Sarajevo, and the 80.000 managed to defend
20 themselves. How do you account for that?
21 A. That's theory, and you have based your question on that.
22 According to establishment, how many men should a corps have, 18.000 or
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have this
1 document, DD00-0121, be tendered as a Defence exhibit, please.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi.
3 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. President. I don't have an objection to
4 the document being tendered. But just an observation: On page 74, line
5 3/4 of the transcript, the Defence asked the question that "Together with
6 the police there were about 60.000 armed people." And I don't see any
7 mentioning to the police in this document. I just received -- I just
8 read now the whole English line. So I didn't know what the issue was
9 about these 60.000 people having included the police as well.
10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] That was my question and he gave
11 the answer that he gave. I didn't relate it to this document. I'm
12 talking about the police. I will go back to this document later, and the
13 number is DD00 --
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.
15 I don't find any objection to the question since it wasn't
16 specifically related to the document.
18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please have
19 document DD00-1121 admitted into evidence as a Defence exhibit.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.
22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D106, Your Honours.
23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like now to show the
24 witness a number of documents relating to the functioning of a facility
25 named D-B.
1 Q. Is it true that this annotation was used by the 1st Corps of the
2 BH army for the tunnel?
3 A. Yes, that's correct. DB stands for Dobrinja-Butmir.
4 Q. Let us first look at an order dated 13 April 1995 relating to the
5 operation of this tunnel. That's document DD00-0751, produced by the BH
6 army, by Mr. Prevljak.
7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] If we can see this document.
8 Here it is.
9 Q. First of all, was Mr. Prevljak the commander of the 12th Division
10 in Sarajevo?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. This order has been even sent to your brigade, 155th, and it very
13 specifically stipulates by the hour how this facility should be operated.
14 If you look at page 1 first, does it say here that as a result of
15 the fact that certain changes took place in the mode of operation of DB
16 facility, and for the purpose of a more operational work, certain ties
17 were specified for the usage of this facility? And that is to do with
18 giving -- allotting times for those given permission to pass through.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi.
20 MR. WAESPI: Yes, I take it there is no translation for this
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Where is the translation, Mr. Tapuskovic?
23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have been
24 waiting for the translation since the 9th of March, but I don't have it
25 at the moment.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: The 9th of March?
2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No, no, no, no. We were told
3 that we would receive it on the 9th of March. That's what my --
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: When was it submitted for translation?
5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Among the first documents. I
6 don't know the exact date, when I submitted over 100 documents. We were
7 told that it should be completed by the 9th of March, the translation, I
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: How long is the document?
10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Two pages, one sentence, in
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay. Let's proceed. Identify the passages
13 that you wish to refer to, and we'll rely on the interpreters.
14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] All I need is for the witness --
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the point that you're making about the
16 tunnel? What's the point of your cross-examination?
17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It says here very precisely,
18 during the day, who is allowed to pass at 6.00 a.m., at 8.00 a.m., at
19 10.00 a.m., 11.00 a.m., so that's the schedule of the use of the tunnel
20 by the hour, or, in other words, this is an hourly schedule of the usage
21 of the tunnel.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. But what consequences flow from that so
23 far as this trial is concerned? Because it's not in dispute that the
24 tunnel was there and it was used.
25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, that is exactly what I
1 intend to demonstrate, that certain orders were issued, giving permission
2 for units to pass through the tunnel and become engaged in operations
3 outside the Sarajevo zone. I have a number of important documents
4 showing how all this was functioning.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. But to be relevant to the proceedings, you
6 have to go a little further, in my view, to show not just that they
7 passed through the tunnel and were engaged in operations outside the
8 Sarajevo zone, but that those operations in which they were engaged were
9 of a defensive character; that they were responding to attacks from the
10 other side, and that the consequence for this trial is that those charges
11 in the indictment which relate to that particular incident, the accused is
12 not responsible for them.
13 Otherwise, it's not leading anywhere, merely to show that the
14 Bosnian government forces engaged in attacks. You have to tie it to the
16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] That is exactly what I intended
17 to do, and I can produce at least 100 documents to this effect; however,
18 chose only four. And this document, DD00-01170, directly relates to your
19 question. If we can have it displayed on our screens please.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Witness, it says here, "The command of the 12th division, strictly
23 confidential --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Will the counsel please indicate where he is
25 reading from.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, the interpreter is asking you, and
2 so are we, to indicate where you are reading from.
3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 1, the heading, the very top
4 of the document. "12th Division Command, strictly confidential, number"
5 so-and-so, "Sarajevo, 26th of June, 1995." Is that what it says here.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. "Proposal for selected targets for destruction and engagement of
8 aggressor forces."
9 Is that correct?
10 A. Yes, that is what is written here.
11 Q. "Pursuant to order of the Chief of Staff of the 1st Corps, strictly
12 confidential, number 01/3-151, dated 25th of June, 1995. For pursuant to
13 active combat operations in areas of responsibility of all brigades and in
14 the area of responsibility of the 12th Division with a view to engaging
15 aggressor forces around the city and stretching them and releasing the
16 burden on our forces outside of the city in the area of responsibility of
17 the 14th and 16th Division, this is our proposal per brigade in its
19 Is that what it says?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I'm going to ask you the following: Does this mean that this
22 order relating to specific actions aimed at attracting the aggressor to be
23 carried out in the area of responsibility of the 12th and 16th Division?
24 A. I really don't see what is disputable here.
25 Q. I will tell you. Look at page 3 of this document. It refers to
1 your specific activities, of your 155th Brigade. That's page 3 of this
2 document. Other brigade -- all other brigades are mentioned before your
3 brigade. Look at this one here. It says, "155th Brigade." So it says
4 here: "In the area of responsibility of the 155th Mountain Brigade, six
5 targets are to be destroyed, two by each battalion, as follows: The house
6 Ledica [phoen] in Nedzarici. The group should be composed of the gunner,
7 the sniper shooter, two automatic operators, and a PAM which is
8 anti-aircraft machine-gun operator assistant gunner." Does this imply
9 that in this operation a sniper is to be involved in this operation?
10 A. That's what the order says.
11 Q. Did you have to carry out this order?
12 A. If you have the result of the compliance with this order, I can
13 answer this.
14 Q. That would take too much time. I'm asking you did you receive
15 this order.
16 A. Yes, we did, but we never carried it out.
17 THE INTERPRETER: The counsel and witness should pause between
18 question and answer.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: The interpreter is asking, again, for a pause
20 between question and answer. But I wanted to ask the witness: Why was
21 the order never carried out?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Given the situation we were in, it
23 was impossible to implement this order. The person writing it did not
24 have any real idea of the situation in the field but, rather, it was a
25 mere speculation of what we could do. We implemented a part of this order
1 but the rest went unattended.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.
3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Did you have a sniper shooter active in this operation as stated
6 A. Mr. Tapuskovic, for the 100th time, in these areas of
7 responsibility under my command, each soldier could be a sniper shooter in
8 a way. Because in certain points at the separation line, the distance was
9 as little as five metres or sometimes up to 50 at the most.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: If I understand you then, you didn't have any
11 soldiers who were specifically designated as snipers; but in implementing
12 this order, you could identify two soldiers and they would effectively
13 carry out the functions of a sniper?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely so.
15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Why would the person ordering this state expressively that should
17 a sniper shoot in addition to all the other troops, unless that person was
18 counting on the fact that you had a proper sniper shooter and the piece of
19 weaponry he would need?
20 A. I was trying to figure that out. What can I tell you in answer to
21 your question, or rather, I would be able to answer your question if I
22 were the person who wrote the order, but I'm not, I wasn't.
23 Q. I will refer you to some other orders, but this one, in other
24 words, was supposed to be implemented so as to attract the attention of
25 the soldiers of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps; whereas, the real focus would
1 in the area of responsibility of the 12th and the 14th -- no, sorry, the
2 16th corps, as stated in this order?
3 A. In a way, it is correct. But an activity such this one, can they
4 distract such a number of troops so as to enable an operation on the other
6 Q. This order contains tasks for the 101st, next to you; for the
7 102th; for the 105th; the other three brigades; and for your brigade. You
8 were to conduct four operations, each of which should be done with the
9 help of a sniper shooter; in each of the four, a sniper shooter is
11 A. I think I provided an answer to your question.
12 Q. I believe it was a full answer, too, and that's why I would kindly
13 ask for DD00-1170 to be admitted as an exhibit.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As D107, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi.
17 MR. WAESPI: Yes. I suggest that it be marked for identification
18 until we have a translation.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, yes. We'll mark it for identification
20 pending translation.
21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Before I forget, I would like to
22 tender the statement, DD00-1083, and I propose it be made a Defence
24 Your Honours, pardon me.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: What document is that?
1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It is the witness statement dated
2 the 24th --
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, D107 will be marked for
5 identification; and the latest document, DD00-1083, will become Exhibit
7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I also wanted to
8 warn you of the following. The statement given by the witness on the 10th
9 of July, 2006 is something we received a couple of days ago, and its
10 translation as late as yesterday. Therefore, I had no opportunity to
11 study that statement, and I don't think the witness was proofed on it as
12 well. Therefore, I won't be able to pose any questions regarding that
13 since I received it at such a late time, and I have no time to put it
14 to -- before the witness.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi.
16 MR. WAESPI: Just to clarify, the statement itself is in English,
17 and it's only I think one or one and a half pages, a few paragraphs, has
18 been disclosed, I guess, last year. But, indeed, yes, the translation was
19 disclosed on Sunday, Sunday around 3.00 or 4.00. But it's a very short
21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there are 11
22 paragraphs, important ones. I will not make this an issue. I just wanted
23 to give you a illustration of the situation we were in. It is an
24 important issue.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: If you are not making it an issue, then so be
1 it. Let's move on.
2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. There is another order, DD00-1159, concerning the activities of
4 the 155th Mountain Brigade. I think the number is correct, and it is
5 already in front of witness. It is an order of the 13th of June, army of
6 the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, command of the 12th Division. Order.
7 Since the order of the 1st Corps command, strictly confidently, number
8 01/1-195 of the 2nd of June, 1995 was not fully complied with, being the
9 preconditions of fulfilling combat tasks at Trebevica, we annul the order
10 of the 13th of June and a new order follows in light of the facts
12 "I order that the command of the 152nd and 155th Mountain Brigade
13 be sent to the Treskavica plateau, together with the necessary number of
14 troops out of their unit, so that in the field there would be 300 soldiers
15 in each. Number 2: In the manning structure, sent to carry out this
16 task, you should take care that you have as many fighters as possible to
17 fulfil the combat tasks issued."
18 Mr. Hadzic, you implemented this ordered, didn't you? It was
19 signed by Fikret Prevljak, the 12th Division commander.
20 A. I probably did..
21 Q. Did you have to go through the tunnel in order to reach the
22 positions mentioned?
23 A. It was a necessary thing to do, yes.
24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we see the large map -- no,
25 let me tender this one first, DD00-1159, and I propose it as a Defence
2 First of all, has this been admitted? DD00-1159 as a Defence
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can the court deputy enlighten us on that.
5 THE REGISTRAR: No, Your Honours, it has not been admitted yet.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi.
7 MR. WAESPI: Yes, again, similar situation like last time, we
8 don't have any objections to have it admitted but we need a translation.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, we mark it for identification pending
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes marked for
12 identification D109.
13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mr. Hadzic, can you show us on this large map where the Treskavica
15 positions were, where the tunnel is that you went there, and where did you
17 It won't work. It seems that every time the witness is in front
18 of the map, he doesn't want to see.
19 A. There's nothing for me to hide. This is the runway, that's where
20 the tunnel was, and we went up there to Treskavica.
21 Q. What does the blue line depict? Are those the positions assumed
22 by the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
23 A. It should be that. It should be.
24 Q. Can I ask you this: In other words, in Sarajevo, you were setting
25 up a smoke scene. You were causing incidents so as to avert attention
1 from your real tasks which was going through the tunnel to some other
2 areas. Is that correct?
3 A. Unfortunately, no. In Sarajevo, we were defending ourselves
4 trying to survive, and we went through the tunnel in order to liberate
5 ourselves, to break free.
6 Q. I'm asking you whether you went to any combat actions to the front
7 lines depicted in blue.
8 A. You're asking me whether the combat activities in Sarajevo were
9 merely a smoke screen so as to attract the attention of Serbian forces;
10 whereas, we would then focus our operations outside of Sarajevo. To
11 stress, yet again, in Sarajevo, we were trying to survive. There were no
12 provocations. We were trying to defend ourselves from the aggressor. We
13 went through the tunnel trying to breakthrough the siege and to try and
14 drive them away, so that we could live in Sarajevo.
15 Q. The document we saw a moment ago, in it you confirmed that those
16 activities there were setting up a smoke screen, and that the focus of
17 actions were outside on the units which left Sarajevo. That's what you
18 told me; that's what you confirmed.
19 A. I didn't put it that way. I said that in addition to our regular
20 defensive tasks, we were given some other tasks in order to lift the
21 burden from the units outside, and those units were getting ready to lift
22 the blockade of Sarajevo. Unfortunately, neither of us on the inside nor
23 the units attempting to lift the blockade succeeded, and that is in no
25 Q. Yesterday, in chief, you said that you spent almost nine months at
1 Igman, and that your unit was more frequently outside than inside
2 Sarajevo. Is that correct?
3 A. It is not correct. That's not what I said. I said that the
4 brigade was assigned an area of responsibility the size of a battalion, in
5 order to defend the line at Igman, and such activities took place as of
6 late 1993 until the Dayton Agreements. But it didn't include the entire
7 brigade, only one of its battalions.
8 Q. And you returned to Sarajevo to rest and then you went back to
9 Igman; is that correct? And you went through the tunnel each time.
10 A. We had shifts of 15 days, but what sort of a rest is it if you go
11 back to Sarajevo, where there is constant shelling; and then after two
12 days, you are returned to the front line again? Because during your
13 absence, people were heavily burdened to try and cover up for the
14 battalion which had been to pull out to Treskavica and to the plateau
15 there. If you consider that to be a rest, well, to me, it's more of a
17 Q. Are you aware of an order referring to sabotage action in which
18 was counted only as provocation and smoke screen covering up actions
19 elsewhere? Did you hear about these actions being taken both in Sarajevo
20 and outside of Sarajevo for to you be enabled operate along this blue
22 A. My brigade was never involved in these kind of actions either
23 inside or outside of Sarajevo. And I don't remember any other brigade
24 being involved in that kind of activity.
25 Q. Let me read out to you: Order, issued by your commander Fikret
1 Prevljak on the 1st of July, 1995. That's document DD00-0741, and the
2 translation of this order is due on the 9th of March, as we have been
4 So you can see this document here: The 12th Division command,
5 the 1st of July, 1995, performance of attacks. Do you see that?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. Then it goes on to read as follows: "The experience acquired so
8 far in conducting surprise attacks, both in the area of responsibility of
9 the 1st Corps and other corps, indicate the need and significance of
10 carrying out sabotage actions against PZT. A very successfully -- a very
11 well prepared surprise attack was carried out by units of the 2nd Corps
12 inflicting significant losses on the aggressor. 40 Chetniks were killed,
13 twice as many were wounded, and a wounded Chetnik was taken prisoner."
14 This is what your command is saying. Is that what it reads?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now I'm going to proceed with the order which reads: "Number 1,
17 unit commander, through daily assessment of the situation, and the use of
18 units in combat operations according to the" --
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that it is impossible to
20 simultaneously interpret when the counsel is reading.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: The interpreter is having difficulty following
22 you and has complained again about the speed with which you are reading
23 the document.
24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, surely, but they
25 have it on screens. They can easily follow it and interpret it from the
2 I will try to read as slowly as possible. It seemed to me that I
3 was reading slowly but I can slow down each further.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi.
5 MR. WAESPI: Yes, just two points to remark.
6 There needs to be a foundation with this witness obviously that
7 the document comes in. But I do have no objection if the whole purpose of
8 this exercise is to have the document in. I have to objection to the
9 document coming in. But so far I don't see any connection to this
11 I also note the time. So far, I don't have any redirect,
12 Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: How much longer will you be? You have utilized
14 about - let me just ask the court deputy - the Prosecutor was two hours
15 and 8 minutes, and I believe you have utilized just about maybe two hours.
16 But I will hear from the court deputy.
17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: You have utilized 2 hours and 4 minutes. One, we
19 don't wish to reduce this to a mathematical equation, but you have had
20 substantially the same time. If you have two or three more questions, we
21 will allow you to put them.
22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have between 10
23 and 15 more documents. I would need at least half an hour more than the
24 Prosecution had, so I need more time. I'm going to omit the questions
25 relating to the statement that I received only yesterday. However, I do
1 believe that I should be allocated much more time than the Prosecution
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. Hadzic, if you
5 are feeling poorly.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Hadzic, I'm very sorry to say that you will
7 have to come back tomorrow morning, or if you are not well enough, then at
8 some over time. But counsel is entitled to put his questions and to put
9 his case to you. So you will, through the Prosecutor, let us know what
10 your position is, whether you -- you're well enough to attend court
11 tomorrow morning or at some other time.
12 Mr. Waespi.
13 MR. WAESPI: Yes, considerable time is eaten up these documents.
14 And, as I said before --
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: And you spent a lot of time, too, Mr. Waespi, so
16 you have to take some responsibility for this dilemma in which the witness
17 finds himself.
18 MR. WAESPI: I do. But the point I was making earlier is if the
19 Defence wants to have these documents in we do not object, but it seems
20 that the witness didn't speak to these documents as much as I thought he
21 should, if he is shown the document.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, we'll resume tomorrow at 9.00 a.m.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,
24 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 7th day of
25 March, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.