1 Monday, 12 March 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
8 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
9 WITNESS: WITNESS W-107
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.
12 MR. WAESPI: Good morning, Mr. President, good morning, Your
14 Before I start, I'd just would seek your leave to make one
15 submission, very brief submission. The submission is pursuant to Rule 73,
16 and it's an application to add two exhibits to the Prosecution's exhibit
17 list. The first exhibit is a medical record that pertains to this
18 witness, and it's a record of her injury that we submit was caused by a
19 mortar shell. And in terms of disclosure, I have disclosed this medical
20 record to the Defence as soon as I received it. And the reason why it was
21 not on the original exhibit list is because the witness brought it to us
22 the day she arrived for testimony. I submit that the exhibit is probative
23 and relative and the Defence have had due notice of the exhibit and,
24 therefore, I would ask that it be added to the exhibit list.
25 The second exhibit is a set of photographs provided by the next
1 witness to attend here. Again, the witness brought these photographs with
2 him during the proofing session, and they have been disclosed to dually to
3 the Defence. The photographs pertain to the observation point one and
4 various other locations in Sarajevo; and for this reason, I submit is that
5 these photographs are also probative. And, therefore, we ask that
6 this -- these photographs be added to the exhibit list.
7 I understand the Defence have been notified, and I understand they
8 do not have an objection to the variation of the exhibit list. Those
9 would be my submissions.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let me hear from Ms. Isailovic.
11 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.
12 I'm going to deal with this witness. Regarding the medical
13 report, if it is exhibit number ERN 0606-9970, we have no objection
14 regarding this document. This is the exhibit that was disclosed to us.
15 Now regarding the photographs, I believe it is my colleague that
16 is going to deal with them because he is the one that is going to use
17 these photographs.
18 Your Honour, regarding the photographs, Defence has no objection
19 regarding these.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva, just on the identification of
21 the -- the medical report.
22 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic said she had no objection if the
24 exhibit was number ERN 0606-9970. Is that the one?
25 MR. SACHDEVA: That is the one, yes.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Then we -- we'll accede to your
2 submission that they be added.
3 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Examination by Mr. Sachdeva:
5 Q. Good morning, witness.
6 A. Good morning.
7 Q. Now, before I start, I just want to tell that you have asked for
8 protection, and the Court has granted you protective measures in the -- in
9 the name of voice and face and pseudonym. And, therefore, during my
10 examination, I will refer to you as Witness 107, and you should be careful
11 not to state anything that could identify you. Do you understand that?
12 A. Yes, I understood.
13 Q. Firstly, I'm going to show you a piece of paper, and on this piece
14 of paper should be your personal details. I'd like you to look at this
15 piece of paper and confirm to the Court whether these personal details are
17 A. Yes, that's correct. Those are my details. Right.
18 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I tender that into evidence under
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P349, Your Honours, under seal.
22 MR. SACHDEVA:
23 Q. Witness, do you presently live in Sarajevo?
24 A. I live at Grbavica in Sarajevo.
25 Q. And during the conflicts and prior to the conflict, did you live
1 in Sarajevo?
2 A. We lived before the conflict at Grbavica, Sarajevo.
3 Q. And what is your current occupation?
4 A. Housewife.
5 Q. And during the conflict, what did you do?
6 A. I stayed at home, I was a housewife, I was in my apartment.
7 Q. Apart from a housewife -- being a housewife, were you involved in
8 any other activities during the time in Sarajevo during the conflict?
9 A. While I was at Grbavica, I wasn't doing anything much. Later when
10 I crossed over to the other side, I was in the civilian protection.
11 Q. When did you leave from Grbavica to the other side?
12 A. 26th May 1992.
13 Q. Why did you leave?
14 A. Serb forces, the police and soldiers, barged into our apartment
15 two or three times a day and night, and they mistreated us. My husband
16 was not there, so they barged in whenever they wanted. My husband had to
17 go to Kobilja Glava.
18 Q. What did your husband do at that time?
19 A. My husband was wanted by the Serb army. They wanted to look at
20 his document. He couldn't report. On the 25th, he did report, and they
21 said if he doesn't come, they will take away me and my daughters. My
22 older daughter was 25; the other one was 17.
23 Q. Was your husband in the military, or was he a civilian?
24 A. He was a civilian working with the army before the war.
25 Q. And during the war, was he in the military?
1 A. He was with the army.
2 Q. Just going back to your answer where you said, "the Serb forces,
3 the police and soldiers, barged into our apartment two or three times a
4 day," what did they say to you when they came into your apartment?
5 A. They told us what were we doing there? Where is my husband? I
6 said he had gone to fetch some food. They said, "Your people are on the
7 other side. You've got no business being here. You should go to Alija's
9 Q. How long did this last for? In other words, how many times did
10 the -- how many times did the -- did the police and soldiers come to your
11 apartment, if you can remember?
12 A. Regularly, and even the neighbours invited me to say that the
13 police had come and soldiers in my absence. The legal army -- the legal
14 ones searched two or three times a day, searching for weapons, and the
15 other ones were in camouflage uniforms.
16 Q. You said, "Serb forces, the police and soldiers." How did you
17 know that these people were Serb forces?
18 A. My building faced Vraca. On the 2nd of May, they came, they had
19 white bands, they came in vehicles with tarpaulins, they barged in with
20 masks on their faces, they devastated and destroyed -- did all sorts of
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: But the question that was asked you was: How
23 were you able to identify those people as Serb forces? How did you know
24 that they were Serb forces.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because they barged in while
1 Grbavica was occupied. They were all troops of the Republika Srpska army.
2 They forced us -- they trying to make us to go to the other side. They
3 were saying it was the Serb state there.
4 Q. Did you in fact move to the other side then, and when was that?
5 A. We left on the 26th May when they threatened that they would take
6 us to Kula and Lukavica. They said that me and my older daughter could
7 not stay in the apartment, no way, and they made us go. So I left with my
8 two children.
9 Q. Where did you move to? And if you could just tell me the district
10 and possibly the building, but don't provide the number of the house or
11 the flat.
12 A. We crossed over the market to the small bridge because the big
13 bridge, the Brotherhood and Unity Bridge, was under fire by snipers. We
14 left while the troops were being inspected. Every ten metres you would
15 see troops wearing helmets and with their vehicles nearby.
16 Q. Very well. Maybe my question wasn't precise enough. Where did
17 you go to live after that? In which district in Sarajevo?
18 A. We left for Alipasino Polje.
19 Q. And don't tell me --
22 Q. Did you say TMP? What does that stand for?
23 A. It's TMP. It's the B/C/S acronym for the Square of International
24 Friendship, Trg Medjunarodnog Prijateljstva.
25 Q. Now, when you moved to Alipasino Polje, you had earlier said that
1 you started to work for the civil defence. Can you tell the Court whether
2 the civil defence was a military or a civilian institution?
3 A. It was a civilian institution. They were working for the
4 civilians supplying them with medicines, firewood, food, humanitarian aid
5 arrived there. I was cleaning there. It was all for civilians, for the
7 Q. And did you work for the civil defence in the period August 1994
8 through to November 1995?
9 A. I worked with the civilian defence from the 1st of July, 1992,
10 until 1996, at least I was on record in that period as working there. I
11 ran away from Grbavica and signed up within a month with them.
12 Q. In relation to where you lived in Alipasino Polje, where was the
13 civil defence office?
14 A. It was close to where I lived. (redacted)
18 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I apologise. Could we have that
19 identification of the flat number redacted.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
21 MR. SACHDEVA:
22 Q. Now, Witness 107, I want to take you to the 30th of August, 1992.
23 Do you remember an incident on that date, the 30th of August, 1992?
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Microphone for the witness. Would the usher
1 please make sure that the microphone is turned on?
2 MR. SACHDEVA:
3 Q. Yes, Witness 107, because your voice is distorted, it is important
4 that you speak into the microphone whenever answering a question.
5 So my question, again, is do you remember an incident on the 30th
6 of August, 1992?
7 A. On the 30th of August, there was an incident at the market, at
8 Alipasino Polje while we were queuing for bread. There were about 100 of
9 us. We were just waiting in line. It was 11.00, 11.30. A shell mowed us
11 Q. When you say there were about 100 of us, what kinds of people
12 there were? Were they children, women, military personnel, civilian
13 personnel? Can you describe the crowd to the Court.
14 A. There were children, elderly men, not so many young people. There
15 were no soldiers, only civilians who were trying to buy some bread to
16 survive, just like I did. All sorts of people, young and old.
17 Q. And do you recall the weather on that day, at the time that you
18 were waiting in the square there?
19 A. There was no rain. It was a bit overcast but there was no rain.
20 Q. What time did you get to the square to start queuing for the
22 A. I went twice. I went once at 8.00. They told me to come back at
23 9.00 because the bread would come then. So I walked back to my apartment
24 which wasn't far away and then I went again at 10.00, 10.15. They told me
25 it would be coming soon, so I queued up, and I was waiting in line when
1 the shell fell. We were all mowed down. There was screaming, moaning.
2 It was a harrowing sight, something indescribable.
3 Q. You said that you went home and then came back again. How far was
4 this square from your home, if you can remember?
5 A. Well, a kilometre, perhaps; 800 metres, perhaps. I don't know
6 exactly, but not far. It was -- the market was just across the street
7 from the television building. It was the Solidarity Square.
8 Q. And during the time that you were there, in other words from the
9 first time to the second time and until the shell landed, did you notice
10 any military personnel, any military installations in the vicinity of the
11 square at that time?
12 A. There were no troops. There were no military installations or
13 buildings. There were only civilians. People struggling to survive,
14 trying to buy whatever they could lay their hands on at market, because we
15 had been encircled in Sarajevo from all sides, and we were under fire from
16 all sides. Everybody shot at us constantly, like beasts. They were
17 trying to kill as many of us as they could.
18 Q. You said that you were waiting in line and the shell fell. If you
19 can -- if you're able to, can you describe what happened to you when the
20 shell landed; but very briefly, if possible.
21 A. When the shell landed, I suddenly felt something pressing on my
22 chest, like I was breathing into a barrel; and then I thought another and
23 another would come because they always fell in threes, but this time
24 luckily it was only one shell. Still it had mowed us down. I couldn't
25 breathe. I felt like a barrel trying to breathe, trying to walk. I
1 couldn't move.
2 Q. Did you sustain injuries as a result of this shell?
3 A. I sustained injuries to my lungs, my diaphragm, my liver.
4 Everything from my chest to my back was injured, destroyed. I have 60 per
5 cent invalidity.
6 Q. Did you go to -- well, were you admitted into hospital; and if you
7 were, for how long did you remain in hospital?
8 A. Some people picked us up, took us to the hospital where I spent a
9 month; 30 days, I think. Yes, a month.
10 MR. SACHDEVA: Could I call up 65 ter 03030, and could I ask that
11 it not be broadcast.
12 Q. Witness, in a moment, if you look at your screen, there should be
13 a document that has appeared. Do you see a document there on your screen?
14 A. This is my discharge document from the hospital, 30th of August
15 1992. I can never forget that. My lungs and my chest are full of
16 shrapnel. Only I know how I feel.
17 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I tender that into evidence under
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.
20 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P350, under seal, Your Honours.
21 MR. SACHDEVA:
22 Q. And, lastly, on this incident, Witness 107, did you know or did
23 you find out as to whether other people were injured or deceased from this
25 A. There was a boy, Dejan in intensive care unit. When his mother
1 came to visit him, he said that 20 people were killed and 35 other people
2 were simply thrown into the air by the shell. And that little boy, Dejan,
3 he also had shrapnel in his body.
4 Q. Now I want to take you to the 16th of June, 1995. Do you remember
5 an incident on that day?
6 A. The 16th of June can never be forgotten. I was on duty at the
7 local commune. We took turns in duty service, about 30 of us. I was on
8 duty on that day with two of my colleagues. At 1530, we heard the sound
9 of an aeroplane, or the sound like an aeroplane flying through the room.
10 We were all thrown into the air and thrown to different sides, different
11 corners of the room. We were lying on the floor when somebody called
12 Dzemo came to see what had happened to us. We were then taken to a
13 shelter. Later they told me it was an air bomb. I said, "What do you
14 mean air bomb? It had to be a whole aeroplane hitting us."
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic.
16 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have an objection
17 regarding the transcript. I heard the witness saying earlier the
18 command -- the major came, and I'm not seeing this; and then a person
19 called Dzemo came with the major, and this is not on the transcript.
20 Maybe we could check.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me ask the witness.
22 Witness, would you just repeat what you said in relation to the--
23 a Major coming.
24 A. Not a major; it was a commander. We had this senior person. He
25 was a civilian. He was with the civil defence. He was our commander, and
1 he ordered people us what to do and made the schedules. And we had to
2 obey him, his orders. He worked for the civilian defence. He was our
3 commander. Commanding officer, "komandir," that's what we called him.
4 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, please, I have a question
5 to check if something is accurate. In the English, I am reading what
6 follows: "[In English] Local commune."
7 [Interpretation] What exactly is this "local commune?" What kind
8 of institution is it? Is it an office? What kind of place is it?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was a building where the
10 humanitarian aid was unloaded and commissioners came there for food.
11 Everything was there. The Red Cross and the -- such organisations. We
12 were there to help the civilians out. We had a roll call every morning at
13 8.00 there. We had to listen to the orders and comply with the orders for
14 the civilians; what was to be done with the wounded, what was to be done
15 with the humanitarian aid that was being distributed, and we all did such
16 humanitarian work.
17 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] But this sort of bomb fell on that
18 very building?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This bomb fell by the building, some
20 ten metres from the place where we were on duty.
21 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 MR. SACHDEVA:
23 Q. Witness, I just want to be clear. The place where you worked,
24 did -- well, were there ever soldiers at that place? People who had
25 weapons, people who had uniforms, or was it simply a place with civilians.
1 I withdraw that.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Not the "or," because that is leading. Just ask
3 her what kind of place it was.
4 A. No. There were no soldiers there. There were only civilians
5 there from around the area where the people lived. We would gather there
6 in the shelters. The people who had been band -- banished, they came, and
7 there was no troops or soldiers there.
8 Q. And were the recipients of your aid and your work, were they
9 civilians or were they soldiers.
10 A. They were all civilians, civilians who were given humanitarian
11 relief. We had to know how many members there were. This Alipasino Polje
12 local community had some 40.000 nationals, and that is where we worked in
13 Alipasino Polje.
14 Q. And the place where you worked and where you lived, in the
15 vicinity were there any military installations or facilities nearby?
16 A. No, none. No military facilities at all; only civilians. People
17 who lived in these buildings and people from the surrounding area, they
18 would come to that local commune, and they would report and would be
19 distributed humanitarian aid. Everything was makeshift. Everything would
20 be made. We had nothing. We didn't have any fuel, any wood for fires.
21 We didn't have any stoves. So we sought to help the elderly. Whatever
22 was required, we would take to them.
23 Q. Now --
24 A. Commissioners would come. A commissioner would come to the local
25 commune, and he would say such-and-such does not have water, does not have
1 a cooking range, or something similar. So our people would go out and
2 seek to help such persons.
3 Q. Now, you started to tell us about how you heard the sound of an
4 aeroplane. Did you hear this aeroplane or -- well, did you hear it land
5 and explode? Let me ask you that.
6 A. We were in the local community and we heard the aeroplane sound,
7 and I had a feeling that the plane had actually impacted the building
8 because we were all thrown around. That was the feeling I had.
9 Q. And did you or any of your colleagues sustain any injuries as a
11 A. I actually don't know what happened to me. I had some scratches
12 on some parts of my body, on the forehead, and I was all swollen.
13 Actually, I was wounded in the right side of my body. I only remember
14 that there were moans and screams all over the place, and everybody was on
15 one another in the shelter; the children, the small babies, all the
16 people. I was there for five days -- three or five days. I don't
17 remember; day and night. We slept on some blankets. All I recall is the
18 moaning and the screaming.
19 Q. You say that you went to the shelter. When did you go to the
21 A. My colleagues actually took me there when Rasim, the komandir, the
22 commanding officer came, and Dzemo also came. And they took me down to
23 the shelter and there we lay on some crates.
24 Q. Did you go to the shelter after the explosion?
25 A. After the explosion when they picked us up. And when this Rasim,,
1 who we called commander, came, they asked us, "People are you alive?" And
2 they pulled us from under the debris, and they pulled us out and then they
3 took us to the shelter. They took me to the shelter. I don't know what
4 happened to the other people.
5 Q. You say they -- they "pulled us from under the debris." Did the
6 civil defence --
7 A. They took us out.
8 Q. The place where you worked, did it sustain damage?
9 A. This was a building which had wood panels on the walls. It was
10 all destroyed. It all fell out of the walls.
11 Q. How far was the shelter from the place you worked?
12 A. The shelter was not far. It was five metres or ten metres around
13 the corner. You just had to go around the corner and the shelter was
14 right there. There was some crates and some packing material in the
15 shelter. So we spent about five days or three or five days, I'm not quite
16 sure, on those crates. I don't know when it was day and when it was
17 night, because it was dark all the time.
18 Q. Now, I'm going to show you a photograph, and I'm going to ask you
19 some questions about the photograph.
20 MR. SACHDEVA: If 65 ter 03031 could be shown on the screen,
22 Q. Witness, do you see a photograph there on the screen?
23 A. Yes, I see it all. I can see where I was, where I worked, where I
24 went to the shelter. I can see it all before me.
25 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I would actually like to do this in
1 open session. But just to be in the safe side, I'm going to ask her to
2 make some markings, so perhaps this should be done in private session.
3 Or I can see how I proceed and --
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let's try that.
5 MR. SACHDEVA:
6 Q. Witness, can you identify the place where the civilian defence was
8 A. This is where the civilian defence was here. There is a passage
9 and a door, right here. Here, this is the entrance. This was the
10 entrance to our local community centre, local commune centre, where we
12 Q. Okay. Just put a cross there, please.
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. Can you see the place where the shelter is on that photograph; and
15 if you can, just put the letter S where the shelter was.
16 A. The shelter was here on the other side. This is where we entered
17 the shelter.
18 Q. Now, I was going to ask you if you could mark the place where
19 the -- the projectile landed, but perhaps -- perhaps I'll tender this
20 first, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We admit it.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It landed on the other side, in
24 THE REGISTRAR: It will be admitted as Exhibit P351, Your Honours.
25 MR. SACHDEVA: Can I ask that 03033 be brought up on the screen,
1 please. I hope this is the right one.
2 Q. Witness, is this a photograph that -- a better photograph for you
3 to identify where the projectile landed?
4 A. On the other side, there is a meadow. It is not here. It is not
5 this. There is a meadow there, and it is on the other side that the
6 projectile landed. This is the entrance to the buildings here.
7 Q. Nevertheless, on this photograph, can you see a part of the meadow
8 on the photograph?
9 A. No, you can't see it. You cannot see here. Behind the green
10 building, there is a large spacious meadow; and, in fact, there are two
11 entrances to the local commune centre, on this side and on the other side
12 where I already marked it.
13 Q. Do you see on this photograph, in the middle of the photograph, do
14 you see a tree there?
15 A. Yes, I do. That is a park, and there is a big meadow behind it
16 and there is the cemetery behind it; and then there is a still a part of
17 the local commune after it. It was a huge local commune.
18 Q. So when you say that "there is a big meadow behind it," is that
19 the meadow that you speak about, where the projectile landed?
20 A. That is right. You cannot see it on this picture. It is on the
21 other side.
22 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I tender that into evidence.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P352, Your Honours.
25 MR. SACHDEVA: And, lastly, I would like to ask that 65 ter 00312
1 to be brought up on the screen, and, again, for it not to be broadcast.
2 And it's the second page.
3 Q. Witness, do you see a document there on the screen?
4 MR. SACHDEVA: Can we zoom it up, please.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see it. It is a list of
6 my comrades with whom I was on duty there.
7 MR. SACHDEVA:
13 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I think that that part needs to be
14 redacted. I apologise.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I would redact it.
16 MR. SACHDEVA: And I would tender this under seal.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We admit it under seal.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be admitted as Exhibit
19 P353, under seal.
20 MR. SACHDEVA: And it's just the first page for the benefit of
21 the court deputy -- the second page. Sorry, excuse me.
22 And that is the examination-in-chief, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
24 Ms. Isailovic.
25 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
1 Cross-examination by Ms. Isailovic:
2 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, madam. My name is Branislava
3 Isailovic, and I am representing the general who is accused before this
4 Trial Chamber, General Milosevic. I would like to ask you a certain
5 number questions regarding, first of all, what you have stated in your
6 examination-in-chief, and I would like to start with two statements that
7 you gave to the OTP. Do you recall, first of all, giving statements to
8 the OTP?
9 A. Please, go ahead.
10 Q. Witness, you gave a statement to the OTP on the 12th of March,
11 1997 [as interpreted]; is that correct?
12 A. Believe me, I don't know. I gave these statements in Nedzarici,
13 but I do not know the dates.
14 Q. So I would like to ask that the statement be put on the screen
15 with all the necessary precautions of course, and I'm talking about the
16 document DD00-1391.
17 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Could that document be placed on
18 the screen, please.
19 Q. Witness, on the screen you can see the cover page of this
20 statement. Can you tell us if you see it?
21 A. Yes, I see it.
22 Q. Can you tell us if you see your signature at the bottom of the
23 page, on the English version, of course?
24 A. Yes, I do see it.
25 Q. Witness, let's move to the second page of this document, please,
1 and I would like to ask you a question regarding this document.
2 In the third paragraph of this statement, you talk about the
3 Territorial Defence for which you worked. Do you see this?
4 A. Yeah, I see that. Territorial Defence, that is civil defence.
5 Q. So, Witness, the Territorial Defence for you is the same thing as
6 civil protection?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you tell us, Witness, who told you that the Territorial
9 Defence was the name of the place where you worked?
10 A. When I fled from Grbavica to Alipasino Polje, I went to the
11 community and I signed up. I reported and it was the TO then. And they
12 assigned us to different tasks, to clean, to help out the people. That
13 was the TO which was attached to the municipal centre.
14 Q. And, Witness, who was your employer? Was it the Territorial
15 Defence, the TO?
16 A. No. It may have been the TO, but he was our commanding officer
17 for civilian affairs. That's how we called him.
18 Q. Witness, to be very clear, you were paid for the work that you
19 did; isn't that right?
20 A. No, no. We were not paid at all. We didn't get any salaries. We
21 were given some food. There was no salary.
22 Q. Can you tell us if you had medical insurance at that time from
23 your employer?
24 A. What medical insurance? I don't understand.
25 Q. Did you have at the time a -- an ID card, a card that allowed you
1 to have medical insurance?
2 A. No. We didn't have anything of the kind. It was war. There was
3 nothing. We worked for the people. People were getting killed. We
4 struggled to survive and to see to it that people got some necessities to
5 clean up, to help people, including by the Red Cross.
6 Q. Witness, in your statement in the same paragraph, you stated that
7 you -- that you had to bring messages.
8 A. Messages would come to the local commune. We had people working
9 for the Red Cross so that messages would come there and would be
10 distributed to the people who were the addressees. The messages started
11 coming in 1994.
12 Q. Yes, precisely. But would you please read to us that paragraph.
13 Could you please read paragraph number 3 where you said: "I started
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you see the paragraph beginning: "I started
16 working with the Territorial Defence." That's the paragraph which you are
17 being asked to read.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. "I started working with the
19 Territorial Defence at the community centre." This was not the community
20 centre. This was a civilian defence facility. I would do anything that I
21 was asked to do; cooking, cleaning, or taking messages. I did cleaning
22 there, and people brought messages there. There was not an a community
23 centre in the sense of a community house. It was the local commune
24 centre. There would be messages brought in when there was a lot of
25 shooting, when there was heavy fighting, when there were alarms sounded
1 for the people in order for the people not to move about and such.
2 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. So, Witness, if I understood you correctly, you were sort of a
4 person who -- or, actually, the office where you worked was sort of a
5 place where messages were brought to people?
6 A. [Previous translation continues] ... Time, sometimes I would go to
7 see the other commander down there in the municipality. I would go back
8 immediately after having delivered a letter, but this happened just once
9 or twice. But most of the time I would do cleaning and scrubbing work,
10 after four hours.
11 Q. Witness, above the paragraph that you just read, you state how you
12 fled Grbavica and you describe how you went over the bridge, Bratstva
13 Jedinstva. It's in the second paragraph at the very end of that
14 paragraph. Can you see that?
15 A. No, I don't see it. I know that it is the Square of Brotherhood
16 and Unity, Bratstva Jedinstva. I know that I crossed the --
17 Q. That -- if you look at the your statement at the end of the second
18 paragraph, there is a sentence that starts with: "I saw an old man get
19 close to the control checkpoint."
20 A. Oh, yes. When we fled away, when we set off from Grbavica after
21 we had gone by the market, we ran across a Serb-manned checkpoint, and my
22 daughter asked me where should we go, and I -- and I said we have to
23 follow this elderly man. So this guy actually didn't ask me much. We
24 passed by the Square of Brotherhood and Unity to the little bridge.
25 Q. Witness, today, you told us a story that is slightly different
1 from what you said in your statement. What you said in your statement is
2 that a true account of what happened?
3 A. Everything is true. It is true that it all happened. One can
4 never forget it.
5 Q. What you're telling us in that paragraph of your statement, that
6 is exactly how the events took place; is that right?
7 A. Precisely the way I said it. It all happened.
8 Q. Witness, may I conclude, therefore, that you were not asked any
9 questions. You went own the other side of the bridge across the bridge,
10 and nobody controlled you. Nobody check the you. You didn't have it go
11 through a checkpoint?
12 A. Yes. We did go through the checkpoint, through one checkpoint.
13 There was one checkpoint that everybody had to pass through. Every 20
14 metres, there is were army troops. We followed that old man who said to
15 the people at the checkpoint that he was going to the bakery, and we
16 followed after him and passed through.
17 Q. And this, of course, was in the presence of the soldiers of the
18 army of Republika Srpska. Is that true?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, let's move to your second statement from the 17th of May,
21 2005. It's DD00-1397.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone, please.
23 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I hope that this statement is not
24 broadcasted. Good, thank you.
25 Q. Witness, I would like to you take a look at this document and tell
1 us if you see your signature at the bottom of the cover page.
2 A. I see it.
3 Q. Witness, do you recall that you saw somebody from the OTP a second
4 time on that date, that you gave the statement on that date?
5 A. When was this? I can't see properly.
6 Q. The date is the 17th of May, 2005.
7 A. It's possible. I don't know the dates of my statements. All I
8 know is that I went to give them.
9 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please move to page number
10 3, and in both versions the paragraph that I'm looking for is the
11 paragraph 14.
12 Q. So please take paragraph 14 and tell us, first of all, when you
13 answered to some questions that the Prosecutor put to you, you mentioned
14 that you left Grbavica and you talked about it. Do you recall?
15 Just an objection to correct the transcript. I mentioned you
16 talked about some days that preceded your departure. I would just like
17 the transcript to reflect my words.
18 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Ms. Isailovic, also on page 24, you
19 talked about paragraph 14 in both versions. I think that it's in the
20 second version. It's in the second statement that you are looking for
21 that paragraph, paragraph 14.
22 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I said that it's page number 3 of
23 both versions, because sometimes the B/C/S version and the English version
24 is not the same. But now we're on the same page. It's page number 3 of
25 both the B/C/S and English version, and I would like you to take a look at
1 paragraph 14.
2 Q. Witness, you talked about soldiers who came to harass you in a
3 certain way. They would come to your apartment in Grbavica. Is that
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.
6 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I don't see the answer from the
7 witness or maybe she didn't answer. The question has been asked and there
8 is no answer.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, you were asked whether you talked about
10 soldiers who would harass you in a certain way, and that they would come
11 to your apartment in Grbavica.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Soldiers came to our
13 apartment, both by day and by night, and harassed us.
14 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Still talking about the same paragraph, paragraph 14. At the very
16 beginning of this paragraph, you talk about this, and I hope of course
17 this document is not broadcasted. You did not, however, mention your
18 street. I would like you to -- or actually do not tell us the name of the
19 street. Your address is there but do not tell -- to not tell us where you
20 lived. I would just like to you take a look at this paragraph and tell
21 us, confirm to us that this was your address?
22 A. Yes, it is. All that in that paragraph is correct. That's my
23 statement, and that's my address, the former and the current address.
24 Q. So this is why I am asking you to not tell us your street name, do
25 not give us your address.
1 Please tell us, is it right to say this was a high-rise?
2 A. Those were five-storey military pavilions, military buildings.
3 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can we move into
4 private session for just a few seconds. I would just like to make sure
5 that the address it not given.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
7 [Private session]
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
17 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Witness, can you tell us if you remember if there were some
19 military activities at that time, before you left Grbavica?
20 A. On the 2nd of May, close to the stadium there was street fighting
21 involving rifles, infantry weapons. The shooting went on day and night.
22 Q. Where you lived at the time, that area, was it very close to the
23 lines where that fighting went on?
24 A. Well, it was about a kilometre away, maybe kilometre and a half.
25 There were tanks across from me. Close to the Drvo Rijeka building, there
1 was one tank there and another tank close to the shopping centre. They
2 would occasionally fire. All the glass windows were shattered. We didn't
3 dare sleep in our apartment. We slept in the neighbour's apartment
4 because the neighbour had left for Lukavica. He left us the keys and
5 said, "If you need, you can spend the night there," and that's what we
7 Q. But, Witness, according to you, it was very dangerous for
8 civilians to stay in that neighbourhood; is that right?
9 A. Exactly. Because they persecuted us and they barged into our
10 apartments. When the tanks fired, all the glass was shattered, although
11 they were firing to the other side, not at us.
12 Q. Witness, still in the same paragraph, you said that you telephoned
13 your husband. You called your husband on the phone. Do you see that?
14 A. On the 25th of May, we called him when the military police had
15 been to see us. They wanted to see his ID. They would come three or four
16 times a day looking for my husband. They said they just wanted to look at
17 his papers, so he called back on the 26th of May. My husband Zoran called
18 me, and I passed the receiver to that man so that they can reach
20 And they agreed that the next day at 10.00 they would meet at the
21 Brotherhood and Unity Bridge, that my younger daughter would go and Zoran
22 would go so they don't shoot. They said they just wanted to look at his
23 personal ID. But that night I decide to the escape and that's what I did.
24 The next morning at 7.00, I fled.
25 Q. If I understood you correctly, Witness, your husband called you in
1 Grbavica. He called your apartment in Grbavica.
2 A. He called us at our apartment in Grbavica. He was at Kobilja
3 Glava at my brother's. He called me on the 25th of May. Zoran was in my
4 apartment when he called, and they agreed that he should come down -- that
5 he would come down and look at my husband's papers; that my daughter would
6 come along, too; that they would meet on the bridge; and that nothing else
7 would happen. They would just look at his papers.
8 Q. Witness, that Zoran, was he a soldier, a Serb soldier from the
9 army of Republika Srpska?
10 A. Well, possibly. He was in camouflage uniform. They had caps on
11 their heads. They must have been Serbs. I called up my neighbour, and he
12 said, "We have nothing to do with it." He said, "MUP had nothing to do
13 with it. It's the military police."
14 Q. Witness, at the very end of the paragraph, you mentioned that the
15 Serb soldiers took your jewellery and property, your goods. Can you
16 explain to us what happened exactly?
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.
18 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, just to be precise, the paragraph at
19 least in the English version, does not say that the Serb soldiers took her
20 jewellery. It says that the Serb soldiers were breaking into apartments
21 taking jewellery and property.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Precisely so, in the English at any rate.
23 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Yes. Actually, can you please tell us what happened to you? What
25 happened in your apartment?
1 A. Soldiers would come to our place. They barged in to our apartment
2 looking for weapons. They carried away whatever they wanted; drinks, any
3 kind of spirits, all the bottles that were not opened. They even looked
4 into pots and pans.
5 Q. And you knew this because this was the case for your apartment?
6 They took something from the kitchen in your apartment; is that right?
7 A. They took pots and pans from our kitchen. One thing that my
8 husband got as a price, they said it was good so they took it away. We
9 had an unopened bottle of spirits; they took that away. Somebody said it
10 was the -- not the legal army, and we shouldn't open the door but we
11 didn't dear not to open. We were afraid not to. They were armed. If
12 they were knocking on your door carrying rifles, of course, I had to open.
13 Other people didn't.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, the Prosecutor used 40 minutes,
15 and you have so far used 30 minutes. So you may go to the -- to the
17 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. Witness, so after you left, you went to Alipasino Polje; is that
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And today you mentioned that you changed, if I understood you
22 correctly, apartments; is that right?
23 A. Yes.
5 Q. Witness, those apartments where you moved, because you lived there
6 for a while, were those empty apartments?
7 A. Those were vacant apartments.
8 Q. And did you know who used to live there at the time? For example,
9 did neighbours tell you who used to live there?
10 A. Yes, I know. We were told. I know who lived there before.
11 Q. And who used to live there?
12 A. Can I say who lived there before.
13 Q. Yes, please do.
14 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Maybe we should move into private
15 session. Maybe it would be more prudent.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
17 [Private session]
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
1 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Witness, can you please indicate to us the area where the shell
3 landed on the 16th of July, 1995, and please you can make a circle at that
5 A. Behind this green building, it fell at the corner of this
6 building, onto the clearing. I can't show is it here. It fell on the
7 other side. There was another entrance here to the local commune centre,
8 and the second entrance. There were two entrances to the local commune.
9 It fell on the other side.
10 Q. Can you maybe just indicate to us the side where, with respect to
11 the high-rise building, the area or the side where the shell landed
13 A. Well, if you go down this building, there is a clearing behind
14 this building. I cannot show it to you, because it's behind the building.
15 If you showed me the other side, I would be able to mark it.
16 Q. So, for the transcript, may I help you by saying the following,
17 that with respect to this picture, the area in question is-- or the place
18 where the shell landed would be behind the building on top of the picture
19 where we see the basketball field. Is that where the shell landed?
20 A. The shell fell behind this building. There is a clearing there,
21 and the cemetery is on the same side. You cannot see it from this
22 building here. The clearing is over there. It fell on the edge of the
23 asphalt path next to another entrance of our local commune. I can't see
24 it from here, from this building.
25 Q. May I, therefore, conclude that it's behind the tallest high-rise
1 and in the direction of the basketball field?
2 A. Yes. This building here, there's clearing over there. Behind
3 this green building there, it fell -- I don't know, do you have a
4 different view of this area?
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.
6 MR. SACHDEVA: Her answer contains information about this building
7 and that building. Perhaps it could be brought out exactly which building
8 she is talking about. It's my suggestion.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, Witness, would you tell us had a building
10 you're referring to when you say that --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This entrance into the local
12 commune; this was the building of the local commune. There is one
13 entrance from the clearing and once entrance from here.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would you mark it for us, mark the building that
15 you're referring to.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is where the entrance was, and
17 there was another entrance on the other side of the building where the
18 shell landed, from the clearing. That's where the shell landed. There
19 are two entrances to the local commune.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: You have already placed an X at the -- at the
21 entrance. Do you remember that? You placed an X to the entrance to the
22 building. We can see that.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is an entrance to the local
24 commune here, but there is another entrance where the air bomb landed.
25 But we can't see that other entrance from this being. It's in the way.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: So I think we have an idea now of the building
2 that she's referring to. It would seem to me that it's the same building
3 in relation to which she has marked the X, but there is no view of it in
4 this photograph. There is no view of the place where the shell fell in
5 this photograph.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no view, no.
7 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I precisely asked a
8 question to the witness, and the witness answered that it's, in fact,
9 behind the tallest building, between the tall building and the basketball
10 field, and the witness already replied by saying yes.
11 Now, regarding the day, the 16th of June, regarding that date, did
12 you notice --
13 A. No, no. Not up there. It's not there. It's behind this building
14 where the basketball court is, where basketball is played.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: But can you see the basketball court. Is the
16 basketball court visible in this photograph, Witness?
17 Did you hear my question?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Am I supposed to answer?
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I have asked you whether you can see the
20 basketball court.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was up there above the buildings;
22 the basketball court. That's not where the shell landed. It landed on
23 the other side of this high-rise building, and there is no way that I can
24 show it to you because I cannot see it on this photograph. It is on the
25 other side of the clearing, on the other side of the meadow. I can't show
1 it from had position.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Judge Mindua has a question.
3 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, it's still the same
4 question. If we look at this picture, we have two groups of buildings.
5 One that is comprised of two buildings. In the forefront and in the
6 background, there are two other buildings. Is that right? So we have
7 two possibilities. With the second set of buildings that is in the
8 background, you have the first part of the building that is taller; and
9 behind that building, the tallest building, there is a basketball field.
10 You said that is not where -- you said that's where the shell fell.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It did not land up there. It is
12 behind this building, the lawn, the meadow behind this first building, and
13 it fell near the entrance to the local commune, the second entrance to the
14 local commune which I cannot show you on this photograph. That is where
15 the air bomb landed. The entrance to the local commune, if you have
16 another photograph, I could show you. So it's in the meadow behind this
17 building that I'm unable -- and I'm unable to show you the exact spot.
18 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave,
19 could I cross-examine for five more minutes before the break? It's very
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No problem.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
24 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Witness, so we're talking about the 16th of June, you recall that
1 day. Do you recall when you went to work on that day? Do you know if
2 there was any military activities, intense military activities going on in
3 the area?
4 A. It wasn't near us. It was in the vicinity of Ilidza and
5 thereabouts. We could hear the infantry fire, but it wasn't near here.
6 What we had there were just shells. There was snipers in some places in
7 Nedzarici and in the approaches.
8 Q. Were you told to go to the shelter? Did you get a warning saying
9 that you had to go to the shelter?
10 A. After the air bomb landed, I was taken to the shelter and there
11 was this screaming and moaning and shouting by people, and I didn't know
12 anything from that moment.
13 Q. Witness, my question was different. On that day, in the morning,
14 on June 16, had you been told that you should go to the shelter for the
16 A. I didn't in fact know about that shelter being there at all.
17 Nobody told us about it until that particular incident. There was a roll
18 call every morning at 8.00, and we would be assigned to our representative
19 duties; to clean, to help people, to see who needed what, water, cooking
20 ranging, queue in lines, and take whatever was needed to the people.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Would counsel please not overlap with the
23 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... The layout?
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: You're going asked not to overlap with the
2 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I apologise.
3 Q. So regarding the layout of that area, there is a lot of high-rises
4 in Alipasino Polje?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And Mojmilo hill is very close; it's what separates the part that
7 could be called --
8 A. [Previous translation continues] ... Up the hill.
9 Q. So it separates. So we have Alipasino Polje, Mojmilo hill, and
10 then you have got Lukavica right behind, right?
11 A. Yes, that's right.
12 Q. And towards Nedzarici there are also high-rises that are very
13 similar to the ones that we see on the photograph, a great number of
15 A. If this here is Alipasino Polje, this is where I was. I didn't go
16 to Nedzarici. We did not dare go to Nedzarici.
17 Q. I'm not asking you that. But the street where there's the
18 trolley-bus, the street is close to Nedzarici. But are there a lot of
19 high-rises in Alipasino Polje, in that area of Alipasino Polje?
20 A. Yeah, there are. There are high-rise buildings. There are also
21 less-tall buildings. They are not very many high-rise buildings.
22 Q. The high-rises over there don't look like the ones here on this
24 A. Believe me, I don't know. I didn't really look. I know that my
25 daughter lived here on the second floor and my brother on the fourth. I
1 was on the tenth.
2 Q. One last question. These flats had been freed because Serbs had
3 left them. You're saying that all members in your family were living in
4 different flats, and they all had been left by Serbs that had left the
6 A. No. My brother was living in his own apartment, and my daughter
7 lived with the family that she had married into. Some Serbs had left
8 their apartments, some hadn't. I mean there were all sorts of things
9 going on at the time. The commissioners were all assigned each to one
10 entrance. The commissioners were people in charge. They had lists of
11 people in each entrance. There were Croats and Muslims and Serbs living
13 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. I haven't stopped you.
15 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Oh.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you know of any Serbs who left apartments in
17 which they were living?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know just about this person where
19 I lived. I know that he left. I heard that he had worked on television
20 and that he had left for Republika Srpska. He worked for the Srna agency.
21 There he gave statements there. He recorded things and that was -- that
22 was the statement he gave to Srna, but he worked for BH Television.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you know why he left?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know why he left. I know
25 why I did what I did. I don't know why other people did what they did.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, do you have any other questions.
2 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am finished with my
4 Q. Thank you, Witness.
5 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] But I would like to have two
6 statements offered into evidence, DD00-1391 and DD00-1397. These are the
7 two statements made by the witness, and I would like to have them offered
8 into evidence under seal.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We add met them under seal.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, those will be admitted-- well,
11 document number DD00-1391, the statement from 12 March, 1995 will be
12 admitted under seal as D115. Document DD00-1397, statement from 17th May
13 2005 will be admitted as D116, both under seal.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.
15 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I have a couple of questions.
16 We'll take the break.
17 --- Recess taken at 10.45 a.m.
18 --- On resuming at 11.09 a.m.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Sachdeva.
20 MR. SACHDEVA: Could I ask the court deputy to have on the screen
21 P351, please.
22 Re-examination by Mr. Sachdeva:
23 Q. Witness 107, just a couple of more questions and then I will
25 I'm taking you back to this photograph. Do you see the photograph
1 on your screen there?
2 A. I do.
3 Q. Now, I take on board that you have -- your evidence is that you
4 can't see the location where the shell -- the air bomb landed. But what
5 I'd like you to do is, with the use of an arrow, can you draw an arrow
6 point -- just listen to me carefully. Are you able to draw an arrow
7 pointing to the place, even if it is behind the building or obstructed, to
8 the place where you think the air bomb land? Are you able to do that?
9 A. Yes. At the angle of this building, actually here, behind the top
10 of this tall high-rise building, where on the other side where the meadow
11 is was the entrance who the local community centre. It was at the very
12 corner of this building.
13 Do you have a photograph showing the view of the other side?
14 Because I am unable to do that on this one. So this asphalt is also on
15 the other side of the building. I can't show you. I can't show you
16 because the building is standing in the way. There is a meadow here and
17 then the entrance to the local community on the other side.
18 Q. Yes, I understand that. And, unfortunately, there is -- the other
19 photograph is not available. But that place where you have drawn the
20 red -- where you have marked it in a red line, can you just convert that
21 into an arrow, pointing to where you think the air bomb landed.
22 A. It is behind this building down on the meadow behind this building
23 or around this building, as you like. Some 50 metres from there, there is
24 an entrance in this large building here. I just can't show you from this
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think you have gotten as much as you will get
2 from her on issue, and I think the last statement is helpful. "Some 50
3 metres from there;" that is, from the point where she has marked red.
4 MR. SACHDEVA: Very well, Mr. President. I, nevertheless, would
5 like to tender this photograph into evidence, on account of the red
6 marking there.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.
8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P354, Your Honours.
9 MR. SACHDEVA:
10 Q. Now, Witness, In answers to my learned friend in
11 cross-examination, and for the benefit of the Defence I'm looking at page
12 39, line 6, Witness, the Defence counsel asked you -- her question was:
13 "And towards Nedzarici there are also high-rises which are very similar
14 to the ones that we see on the photograph, a great number of high-rises."
15 And your answer was, and I quote: "If this is here was Alispasino
16 Polje, this is where it was. I didn't go to Nedzarici. We did not dare
17 to go to Nedzarici."
18 And what I want to ask you is: Why did you not dare to go to
20 A. Because of the shelling and because of the sniping, we just didn't
21 go there; and then we didn't have any need to go there because we worked
22 here. We helped other people taking water to them and firewood and making
23 cooking ranges for them. I didn't go any -- anywhere, in fact. It was
24 all demolished there. It was all destroyed there. There was sniping
25 [Realtime transcript read in error "anti-sniping"]. There was shelling.
1 No one dared go there.
2 Q. And, lastly, in your answers to my learned friend, you used the
3 term "commander" when referring to the person that worked in the civil
4 defence community or commune. Why do you use the term "commander"?
5 A. Well, the commander actually told us what to do. There was a roll
6 call every morning to see whether we had all shown up, and we would be
7 assigned so our tasks. Some people had to carry firewood; some had to
8 carry tablets. We had to sign a list every morning at 8.00 to show that
9 we were present, and he was our senior. We had to comply with his orders,
10 and that is why we called him commander.
11 Q. Was the commander a soldier?
12 A. No. No. He was an ordinary civilian, an elderly man in his 60s
13 or so. Most of the people in fact were elderly people. I may have easily
14 been the youngest among them. Most of the people were elderly.
15 The UNPROFOR personnel know. They were right across the street
16 from us. They know everything. They know about the air bombs and all
17 these other things. They would come and give us fuel. They would help us
18 take people to hospital if someone was wounded and so.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: What's your age, Witness?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was born in 1955.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
22 MR. SACHDEVA:
23 Q. And on the 16th of June, 1995, and in fact during the period
24 August --
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva, just before this gets off, in her
1 answer to you earlier, she said, "There was sniping and there was
2 shelling." The transcript has "anti-sniping and shelling," so I hope that
3 will be corrected.
4 Yes, please continue. That was in her answer as to why she didn't
5 dare go to Nedzarici.
6 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President. Does it need
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, no. No, it doesn't.
9 MR. SACHDEVA:
10 Q. Witness 107, lastly, the colleagues that you worked with in civil
11 defence in Alipasino Polje and in particular on the 16th of June, 1995,
12 were they soldiers or were they civilians?
13 A. They were all civilians; civilians, unfit people, elderly people.
14 There was a person 70 -- there was a man 70 years of age. All of them
15 were my peers, my generation. They were all civilians. We worked for the
16 people, for the infirm.
17 Q. Thank you, Witness.
18 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, that's the re-examination.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness 107, that concludes your evidence. We
20 thank you for giving it, and you may now leave.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, Mr. Waespi has the next witness.
23 Might I be excused for a moment.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Certainly, yes.
25 [The witness withdrew]
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just two procedural matters. I should say that
2 in Judge Harhoff's absence, Judge Mindua and myself sit pursuant to the
3 provisions of Rule 15 bis.
4 Secondly, I take the opportunity to give a decision on the
5 Prosecution's motion for admission into evidence of written statements of
6 five witnesses pursuant to Rule 92 ter. The Defence doesn't challenge the
7 admissibility of the statements, but asks to be allocated reasonable time
8 for cross-examination of the witnesses.
9 On the 6th of March, the Trial Chamber granted the motion with
10 regard to one witness, Rupert Smith, and admitted his statement into
11 evidence. The Chamber now grants the motion with regard to the remaining
12 four witnesses, and admits the statements of W-39, W-46, W-61, and W-150
13 into evidence, upon fulfilment of the requirements in 92 ter.
14 As regards W-46, the originally estimated length of the
15 examination was eight hours. The Chamber notes that the Prosecution
16 indicated that it would reduce the overall length for the examination of
17 W-46 to five hours through the filing of a 92 ter application. The
18 Chamber, therefore, allocates two hours to the Prosecution and three hours
19 to the Defence, and it will, at another time, set the times for
20 cross-examination of the other witnesses.
21 Mr. Waespi.
22 [The witness entered court]
23 MR. WAESPI: Just one point, in relation to witness W-46, are you
24 in a position to give at one time your decision about the protective
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We issued that decision today.
2 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 I need some time to switch my seat.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: In the meantime, the witness can make the
6 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
7 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
8 WITNESS: HARRY KONINGS
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. You may sit.
10 You may begin, Mr. Waespi.
11 Examination by Mr. Waespi:
12 MR. WAESPI: Good morning, Your Honours.
13 Q. Good morning, Mr. Konings.
14 Can you please state your name for the record.
15 A. My name is Harry Konings.
16 Q. And what is your current rank?
17 A. My current rank is lieutenant-colonel.
18 Q. And what is your function?
19 A. I am working in the Royal Netherlands Army as Chief of the
20 Doctrine Division in the Land Forces Doctrine and Training Centre.
21 Q. And previously were you the head of office of artillery and mortar
22 ammunition, and that relates to 1996?
23 A. In 1996, I held that position, yes, that's correct.
24 Q. And were you also the commander of the fire support school?
25 A. That's also correct, yes.
1 Q. Can I please make a remark about the two us speaking the same
2 language, although it is a not our native language, but can you please
3 stop for a moment before answering so the interpreters can catch up with
4 us. And a good indication is, in fact, to follow the transcript in front
5 of you. Once it has stopped moving then it is safe for you to answer.
6 As the commander of the fire support school, what -- what was your
8 A. In that position, I was responsible for training all the fire
9 support personnel of the Royal Netherlands Army. And with fire support, I
10 mean everything in relation to artillery and mortars, fire support
11 coordination, and fire support planning, so the whole fire support system
12 of the Royal Netherlands Army.
13 Q. What was your training in -- in the army? Which branch did you
14 initially belong to and were you trained in?
15 A. I was -- I was trained on the Royal Military Academy, that's a
16 generic general training, which closes off in the last year with the
17 specific weapons training; and in my case, that was at artillery school in
18 the Netherlands. And from then on, I held various positions as an
19 artillery officer in the Royal Netherlands Army. So my background is
21 Q. And does experience in dealing with artillery also include
22 experience in dealing with mortar?
23 A. Yes, that's correct, since the fire support training school was
24 also responsible for training of all mortar systems in the Royal
25 Netherlands Army, including the Royal Netherlands Marines.
1 Q. Are you familiar with the concept of crater analysis; and if so,
2 can you tell us how you became familiar with that concept.
3 A. Yes. The concept is allocated during our training on the
4 artillery school, not very extensive. It's a course of, let's say, about
5 one day; and during your operational tours and an operational units, you
6 get familiar with that, since you pay visits to the training area, to the
7 firing ranges in order to show your forward observers what the effects are
8 of artillery and mortar projectiles.
9 In fact, you go into the danger area when there is no firing and
10 you show people what the effects are. Besides that, before I went to my
11 UNMO mission, we had an extra training of, I think, it was half a day in
12 our training on crater analysis; and upon arriving in Zagreb, we had an
13 extra UNMO training and also there the UN paid attention to crater
15 Q. And very briefly, in theory --
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: If I understand you correctly then,
17 Lieutenant-Colonel, the theoretical education in this matter was very
18 short. Most of it was -- most of the learning that you have in this area
19 was derived from practice?
20 THE WITNESS: That is correct, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Waespi.
22 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Q. Before you went to Bosnia, and you explained us these fairly short
24 training exercises, did you have theoretical education in dealing with
25 crater analysis?
1 A. Yes. We had, as I told you, we had a short theoretical
2 explanation during your artillery training, which was part of the military
3 academy; and on various occasions during my operational time in various
4 functions in the Royal Netherlands Army, we repeated that very briefly,
5 and we put that in practice during firing exercises. After the firing
6 exercises this closed, we went into the target area and showed our people
7 how the craters look like and how the effects of mortar and artillery
8 shells were.
9 And we all based that -- no. I should say we all wrote it down
10 in, what we called in the Netherlands army, so-called fire support
11 bulletins, which are training documents available for all fire support
12 personnel to keep up to date. And especially when more and more personnel
13 got involved in the operation in 1992 onwards in Bosnia in UNPROFOR, we
14 paid more and more attention to that.
15 Q. Now, you were in Bosnia for a while. Can you tell the Judges
16 exactly for how long?
17 A. My period in Bosnia was from the -- I arrived in Zagreb at 30th of
18 April, 1995. From there we were dispersed, my group of people was
19 dispersed to various places. And on the 4th of May, I went to Sarajevo,
20 and I stayed there until, I think it was the 26th or the 25th of October,
22 Q. And what was your function once you arrived in Sarajevo?
23 A. The first few weeks, I was a team member of an UNMO team. After a
24 few weeks, I became the position of department team leader; and after
25 another few weeks, I became acting team leader and then team leader.
1 Q. Can you tell us of which UNMO team were a team member? And I'm
2 referring to your first assignment.
3 A. When I came in, I was assigned to team Sierra Charlie 1, and "
4 Sierra Charlie stands for "Sarajevo Central."
5 Q. And when you became an acting team leader and then team leader,
6 was that in relation to the same team?
7 A. That was all in relation to the same team.
8 Q. And can you tell us what team that was?
9 A. The team was a very mixed team of most times consisting between
10 six to ten UNMO of various nationalities. There were no two guys from the
11 same nationality in one team. In my team, there were people from European
12 countries, but there were also people from Pakistan, Bangladesh,
13 Singapore, Indonesia, Egypt, all over the world.
14 Q. Where was the team located?
15 A. The team -- the team was located in the part of the Sarajevo which
16 was called Sedrenik, which is, let's say, a habitat in the north-east part
17 of the city.
18 Q. And did you have an abbreviation for that team or the team
20 A. Yeah. The team was called Sierra Charlie 1.
21 Q. As a team leader, what were your duties?
22 A. As it was stated in the SOP, and SOP stands for standard operating
23 procedure, of the UNMOs, in Bosnia, the team leader was in operational
24 command of the UNMO team, which means that you were responsible for all
25 the tasks UNMOs teams had to do. And the most important task was to be
1 the impartial eye-witness of UNPROFOR inside the city of Sarajevo and give
2 reports on every incident or every happening that occurred in the city.
3 Q. Do you remember when you became acting team leader of that
4 Sedrenik team?
5 A. I'm not -- I'm not quite sure about the dates, but it must have
6 been somewhere at the end of May.
7 Q. And were you the team leader until you left towards the end of
9 A. That's nearly correct. I handed over to a Norwegian colleague, I
10 think about one week before I left Sarajevo.
11 Q. And whom did you replace as the team leader of that Sedrenik team
12 of UNMOs?
13 A. My predecessor was a Danish captain. His name was Captain Hansen.
14 Q. Do you know his first name?
15 A. I think it's -- I think his first name was Torban.
16 Q. And do you think he was Danish? Do you know he was --
17 A. He was Danish.
18 Q. How were you organized in your UNMO team that was stationed at
19 Sedrenik during the time you were the acting and then the team leader?
20 A. We were acting in the following way: We had one team base which
21 was in the Sedrenik area. It was -- the team base was based in -- in a
22 room of a civilian house. And in the houses around the team base, the
23 UNMOs had all their living facilities, which means that we were all living
24 in between the civilian people, which is quite normal for UNMOs. They are
25 in the middle of the civilian population. They are not on a military base
1 so they can be approached directly by the civilians.
2 Besides that, we had one observation post at the south part of the
3 city quite high in the mountains, and that observation post was called
4 OP1; just very plain, OP1.
5 Q. Thank you very much, Lieutenant-Colonel. We'll look at a map and
6 a few photos shortly.
7 Now, let me turn to your job as an UNMO and a team leader. Was
8 part you are your duties to investigate into shelling and anti-sniping of
10 A. Yes, that was part of our work.
11 Q. And how much of your work did that comprise, investigating
12 shelling and sniping incidents?
13 A. It's very hard to -- to give, for example, a percentage to that,
14 but there were periods when there was a lot of fighting going on that
15 we -- that the only thing we did during the day was investigating and
16 reporting shelling and sniper incidents.
17 Q. Can you tell Your Honours how many investigations you were a part
19 A. I have been thinking that over, and I think it were at least 100
20 maybe up to 150.
21 Q. And did these investigations concern civilian casualties?
22 A. Yes, they did.
23 Q. And how many of the investigations you conducted concerned
24 civilian casualties?
25 A. I think that must have been at least between, let's say, 40 or 50.
1 Q. And were there specific locations where you investigated or
2 specific areas where you realised that civilians would be targeted?
3 A. Yes. There were certain areas that more often a point of shelling
4 or sniping which were cross roads or water collection points, and
5 especially cross roads when they were in view of the confrontation line.
6 So it was easy to put a grid on that and make a location.
7 Q. And who would call you or task you to do these investigations?
8 A. The task, the official task was always coming from UNMO HQ inside
9 Sarajevo. We many times got first a call from the Sarajevo police, but we
10 always had to get the permission to go on a certain location from our duty
11 officers in the UNMO HQ.
12 Q. And in which building was the UNMO HQ in Sarajevo stationed?
13 A. That was the so-called PTT building.
14 Q. And very briefly, how were these investigations conducted by you
15 and your team UNMOs?
16 A. After a permission and after a call, we went to the location of
17 the -- of the report. Most times we first picked up a one or more police
18 officers of the Sarajevo police. We went to the spot, and we investigated
19 what we saw, like a crater. We investigated craters. We looked for
20 shrapnels, tails of mortars, and other evidence of the use of weapons. We
21 took bearings, we noted grids; and after that we left the location as soon
22 as possible, and we filed everything in a written report. And in the
23 meantime, we gave a message on the radio to the UNMO HQ so that they were
24 aware of what we had seen.
25 Q. Now, you described the various activities of you and your UNMOs.
1 How experienced were your fellow UNMOs?
2 A. There was a big variation between all the UNMOs. Some of them
3 were already for a longer period in Bosnia. Some of them, just like I,
4 had a background, an operational background which involved knowledge of
5 artillery and mortars. But there were also new guys who had no experience
6 with -- with the results and the effects of artillery and mortar fire or
7 with the effects of snipering. So we had to teach all these guys, and we
8 always send out patrols in combination of an experienced guy and a new guy
9 together. So new guys never went alone on patrol.
10 Q. Thank you, Lieutenant-Colonel. You mentioned a few moments ago
11 the Sarajevo police. Did the Bosnian police, the Sarajevo police also
12 investigate into the same incidents you were investigating?
13 A. Yes, they did.
14 Q. Can you describe to Your Honours the cooperation you had between
15 the Bosnian police and yourself?
16 A. Most of the time we had a good cooperation. We kept our
17 investigations separate, which means they did their own thing and we did
18 other own thing. There was just a matter of having the agreement that we
19 went together.
20 Q. Did you exchange information?
21 A. We did exchange information, but I have to stress that it is --
22 was an exchange of information, not altering information. When we had a
23 difference of information, we kept our own information as we discovered
24 it, and we let them keep their own information.
25 Q. Do you have an opinion about the professionalism of the Bosnian
1 police you were working with or alongside?
2 A. In many of the occasions, I think they were quite professional.
3 Q. You told us that were investigating --
4 I'm sorry, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Before going on to another topic, I
6 would like to ask one question.
7 Witness, among the things you were doing on the field, you also
8 talked about crater analysis, fragment research, or tried to also find the
9 tail-fin of projectiles, et cetera. But I did not hear you talk to us
10 about examination of wounds or corpses. Don't you think that type of
11 examination would shed more light on the type of projectile used, and I'm
12 asking this question because this courtroom very often, we hear talk about
13 the fact that there were not enough bodies on the site, not even people
15 So is that part of your investigation as well? Were you
16 investigating on the bodies found on the site?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, we did. Part of our investigation was that
18 afterwards we cleared the area where the shelling had occurred. We always
19 went to the hospital and especially to the morgues to investigate the
20 killed -- the killed people. This was an integrated part of your
21 procedure, and we checked together with the Bosnian police we checked the
22 number of killed people. We checked the kind of wounds that they had.
23 And one other thing we were checking, we were obliged to check on order
24 from our superiors whether the wounded were fresh, yes or no -- or the
25 killed people were fresh, yes or no.
1 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.
2 MR. WAESPI:
3 Q. Why was it necessary for -- to check whether the wounded were
4 fresh, yes or no?
5 A. There were rumours that people killed on one spot were dragged
6 around the city and were planted on another spot apparently to -- to make
7 the number of killed people looking higher than they were. And since
8 there were rumours, and maybe they was strong rumours, I don't know that,
9 we got the order from the senior military observer in Sarajevo that we had
10 to check carefully whether this was happening, yes or no.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you have personnel within your unit competent
12 to make that determination?
13 THE WITNESS: We had -- we had no -- no specific trained personnel
14 for that. And as the time went on, unfortunately, I can say that I became
15 the more or less the only expert in my team to do that. So nearly all the
16 investigations involving killed people, I did.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: How did you make the determination that a person
18 had been recently killed?
19 THE WITNESS: You can see that, I think, about the way -- the
20 appearance of the wounds. You can see whether they are fresh or not the
21 way the people are lying, whether they are stiff or not, et cetera. All
22 that kind of things you can see. And, again, I'm not an expert in that,
23 but have I seen dead people before I went to Bosnia. We had no special
24 training for that; but in my first weeks in Sarajevo, I did all my work
25 together with the then team leader, Captain Torban Hansen. And
1 unfortunately we saw several killed people in that period; and from there,
2 I got the experience I built up later on in my time in Sarajevo.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Waespi.
4 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Q. And following up on -- on Your Honours' questions and what you
6 said, did you ever see what somebody would call planted evidence? Did you
7 ever see an instance where you would form your opinion based on your
8 experience gained on the ground that this evidence has been planted?
9 A. No. I never have seen that kind of evidence.
10 Q. Thank you, Lieutenant-Colonel.
11 Now, what was the result of these investigations you and your team
12 conducted, and I think you mentioned the number 100. Were you able to
13 come to a conclusion as to the origin of fire of these incidents?
14 A. In many of the cases, we were able to make the conclusion that
15 they came from -- from Serb territory. Not all the cases we could make
16 that conclusion, but, as I said, in many of the cases we could do that.
17 Q. And how were you able to come to that conclusions as to the source
18 of fire or direction of fire? What were the tools you could use to
19 determine that?
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sorry. Before he answers that, may I just
21 inquire from the lieutenant-colonel in those cases where you did not
22 determine that the fire came from the Serbs, would I be right then in
23 presuming that you determined that it came from the -- the Bosnian
25 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honour. The firings we could not designate
1 to a certain source, we left an undesigned [sic]. So we didn't know
2 where they came from. That means that we had no evidence of fires coming
3 out of Bosnian territory.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: So had you no evidence of firing coming from
5 Bosnian territory?
6 THE WITNESS: As far as I with recall in my period, I haven't seen
7 it. There were firings from Bosnian territory, but not witnessed by my
8 personally but by other UNMOs.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Waespi.
10 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Q. Now, did you form an opinion at that time, and perhaps today, as
12 to the tactics of the Bosnian Serbs in engaging their targets? And I'm
13 talking about shelling.
14 A. Yes. I have an idea about that, and that's my personal opinion.
15 And I do that with my background as a first time officer. I think in most
16 of the times - I am not say in 100 per cent of the cases, but it comes
17 very close - the use of the mortars, as it was done inside Sarajevo, was a
18 matter of harassing fire, which means that you put it anywhere knowing
19 that you will hit targets. And in most of the cases, there were no
20 military targets involved because to my opinion there were very few real
21 military targets inside the city of Sarajevo; and when you use a mortar
22 inside an urban operation in the way it was used, it can infect lots of
23 harm against, especially unprotected and unwarned civilian people.
24 Military scene, a mortar is used in a different way than it was
25 used in, let's say, 95 per cent of the cases inside Sarajevo.
1 Q. Following up on your last sentence, how is it a mortar normally
2 used in military sense?
3 A. Mortars, as well as artillery, belong to the military function, as
4 we call it, fire support, and the word says it already. It is support
5 with fire of combat troops in action, which means that they serve the
6 purpose. When there is a combat action going on by infantry or by tanks
7 or by reconnaissance troops, fire support units are supporting them by
8 bringing in their strength and their flexibility to support the action,
9 which is done.
10 By doing that, you most times do that in certain procedures and
11 very often or in most cases you use more than one or two or three rounds.
12 You have a certain pattern in that. Mortars, especially, are area weapon
13 systems, so they are not designed for pinpointing targets, that has to do
14 with their design with narrow inaccuracy. So when you use mortar systems,
15 you use them against an area target; for example, soldiers in an attack or
16 soldiers in open terrain or that kind of targets.
17 Q. Thank you, Lieutenant-Colonel. What kind of mortars did the
18 Bosnian Serb army use in Sarajevo, according to your observations at that
20 A. Most of the time, it was 120-millimetre mortars, and on some
21 occasions they used 81 or 82. I'm not quite sure what calibre they had.
22 Q. Can you describe to Their Honours the impact of a 120-millimetre
23 mortar. What effect does it have on the target?
24 A. Well, first of all, the projectiles that were used were high
25 explosive, which means the high explosive projectile is a steel or an iron
1 case filled with an explosive, most times TNT; and on detonating, it
2 produces shrapnels, thousands of shrapnels, and it produces a blast, a
3 very high-pressured blast. It depends on where the projectile is landing,
4 either in the open if it hits the building, so the effect is directly
5 connected with the environment. The effect is also connected with the
6 angle of impact of a projectile. And the effect is also connected, for
7 example, with whether the detonation takes place in the open or in a
8 closed area. So there are various factors that influence the ultimate
9 effect of one projectile on -- on a target.
10 Q. Thank you, Lieutenant-Colonel. Were you at your team base,
11 perhaps elsewhere, ever targeted by the Bosnian Serb army?
12 A. Well, especially at the team base, we had various occasions that
13 we were shot at from a ridge which was called Sharpstone. It was a quite
14 common area where the Serb army had a perfect view into the territory of
15 the Sedrenik area. And when we came back from patrol, on many occasions,
16 they fired with machine-guns or sniper rifles over our vehicles.
17 Q. Is it possible that the Bosnian Serbs mistakenly fired at your
18 team base or over your heads?
19 A. Everything is possible, of course, but or vehicles were clearly
20 marked. They were white UN vehicles with a blue flag on it, with big
21 black letters written on that "Military Observer," also in the Bosnian
22 language "Vojni Promatraci." And our house was marked with various UN
23 flags, so they were quite well to see.
24 Q. Do you remember the day you arrived at the team base?
25 A. Yes, I remember that very well.
1 Q. And why do you remember it very well?
2 A. Well, first, of course, it was a very specific day, being on a
3 plane an UN plane, coming down in the minute from, let's say, 5.000 metres
4 up to Sarajevo airport being thrown in an armoured car from the transport
5 from the airport to the UNMO HQ, and from there up to the team base. And,
6 secondly, a very specific experience was that after five minutes sitting
7 outside the house, there was a sniper shot just about 30 centimetres over
8 my shoulder.
9 Q. And how did you interpret that shot at that time?
10 A. I personally did absolutely nothing because that was just to
11 realise -- it took my time to realise what had happened, but my team
12 leader, the Norwegian Captain Hansen who had been there for several
13 months, I think at least five months, immediately came up with the
14 conclusion that it was a sniper rifle shot from Sharpstone.
15 Q. Let me ask you one sentence about the situation in Sarajevo in
16 general. You just explained the experience had you when you arrived in --
17 in Sarajevo at your team base. Can you tell Your Honours --
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.
19 Mr. Tapuskovic.
20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it says Norwegian,
21 the Norwegian Hansen. Was there also a Norwegian Hansen or a Dane Hansen?
22 Because the transcript says the Norwegian Hansen.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let us hear what the witness said.
24 Witness, how did you refer to Captain Hansen.
25 THE WITNESS: Captain Hansen was the Danish Captain Hansen.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, thank you.
2 Did the lieutenant-colonel say what his position was at that time
3 when he was an UNMO, his position notice army? He replaced Captain
4 Hansen. So at that time what was your position?
5 THE WITNESS: My position in the Netherlands Army was
6 Lieutenant-Colonel, and I was head of the artillery and mortar ammunition
7 office in the Directorate of Materiel, which means that in that period I
8 was responsible for especially the techniques involved in procuring
9 artillery and mortar ammunition and the use of that in the Netherlands
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
12 MR. WAESPI:
13 Q. I was about to ask you how the situation was in Sarajevo when you
14 arrived. Was it full with soldiers? Was it busy with civilians? Can you
15 give Your Honours an idea of the way Sarajevo looked?
16 A. In the period I arrived, there were many civilians inside
17 Sarajevo, also fugitives from the area around Sarajevo. There were
18 soldiers inside the city, but not in big groupings. There were small
19 patrols on the street. And every night we saw, because we were quite
20 close to the confrontation line, we saw the exchange of troops in the
21 confrontation line. But there were no very big amounts of people.
22 The life varied very much. There were days when it was quiet, and
23 then you saw more people on the street because they had to do their daily
24 business trying to get food, et cetera. And there were lots of very tense
25 days with a lot of fire exchange between the Bosnian and the Serb army in
1 the confrontation line and in the city.
2 In general, my first four months there, the situation was quite
4 Q. Thank you, Lieutenant-Colonel. Let's move to Markale. Were you
5 involved in the investigation of what's now referred to as Markale 2, an
6 incident that occurred on the 28th of August, 1995?
7 A. Yes. I was involved in the investigation.
8 Q. Now, when did you hear for the first time that something had
9 happened at or near Markale?
10 A. First time was when I was driving in my car. Coming back from the
11 UNMO HQ on my way to my team base, I got the information on the UNMO radio
12 net that there had been an explosion in the city and that there were
13 probably numerous people involved.
14 Q. What did you do next? Did you continue to drive back to your team
15 base, or did you stay in the city?
16 A. No. On that moment, since I was not too far away from the team
17 base, I decided to drive back to the team base.
18 Q. And what did you do at the team base?
19 A. Only after a few minutes, we got the phone call that -- from the
20 police that they needed us for an investigation. And I decided
21 immediately that I was the -- since I was the only available experienced
22 UNMO that I should go there together with two colleagues.
23 Q. And who were these two colleagues?
24 A. Those were the Spanish Captain and a British Flight Lieutenant.
25 Q. Do you recall their names?
1 A. Yes. The Spanish Captain was called Carbonell, and the British
2 Flight Lieutenant was called Higgs.
3 Q. Did you take material with you in order to conduct your
5 A. Yes. We always carried around our standard equipment needed by
6 UNMO, which was fairly basic; of course, your helmet, flakjacket, compass,
7 binoculars, medical kit, and your radio.
8 Q. And did you go to the scene where the explosion occurred?
9 A. Not directly. We first stopped at the police station which had
10 called us to go there, and we picked up some police officers; and from
11 there, we went up to the scene of the explosion.
12 Q. In your opinion, how long after the explosion had occurred did you
13 and your colleagues arrive at the scene?
14 A. In my recollection, it must have been between, let's say, 30 and
15 40 minutes.
16 Q. And, approximately, at what time did the explosion occur?
17 A. That was shortly after 11.00.
18 Q. Can you please describe to Your Honours the scene that was in
19 front of you. What did you see when you arrived at the scene of the
21 A. When we came there, there was a lot of glass on the street,
22 literally centimetres of broken glass; lots of pools of blood; and lots of
23 body parts.
24 Q. What was the situation like? What was the -- did you talk to
25 people? Were they calm, agitated? Can you tell Your Honours how it was?
1 A. The situation was extremely tense. A lot of people were on --
2 still on the street; of course, a lot of uniformed people, police
3 officers, army people, but also civilians, and especially the civilians
4 were shouting against us. They were very angry. And what my interpreter
5 told me is that they were accusing the UNMOs or the UN, UNPROFOR for the
6 fact that we that could have not avoided this, that we could have -- we
7 didn't have the possibility to stop this kind of things to happen.
8 Q. You mentioned Bosnian police officers; in fact, you said uniformed
9 people, police officers. Who were these police officers, these uniformed
11 A. I do not know. We were accompanied by -- by uniformed and
12 civilian people -- police officers were the same ones which with whom we
13 were doing business all the time. And all the uniformed people, I do not
14 know. I have not spoke with them as well, so ...
15 Q. Because these were local, these were Bosnian uniformed personnel?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you also see international soldiers, members of UNPROFOR or
18 other contingents?
19 A. Yes. There were some other people on the scene. What I can
20 recall is that they were French soldiers, French UNPROFOR soldiers on the
21 scene, doing also an investigation. And I can recall that my superior,
22 senior military observer, was very shortly on the scene of the explosion.
23 Q. Who was your senior military observer? What was his name?
24 A. It was a Norwegian lieutenant-colonel, and his name was Oyen.
25 Q. And did you talk to him?
1 A. We exchanged one sentence to each other. First thing he told me
2 was put on my helmet was because I was wearing my beret, and he was right
3 in that. And the second one was that he told me was that I not allowed to
4 talk to anybody, to the press, or to anybody else, and that I had to
5 remember the impartial status and the impartial way of working of the
6 UNMOs, which meant that I was not allowed to say anything about the
7 original of fire.
8 Q. Did you talk to any other people, apart from your boss, while you
9 were at the scene of explosion?
10 A. Yes. I talked, of course, to my direct colleagues; the Spanish
11 captain and it's British lieutenant. And I talked to the people of the
12 Bosnian investigation team which was formed just before that we started
13 our work, which among other there is was a judge of the Sarajevo court,
14 various police officers, some of them I already told you I knew already on
15 that date. So I talked basically with my colleagues and Bosnian
16 investigation team.
17 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel, what were you doing now on the ground? What
18 was your task, and what did you do and your two colleagues do in
19 investigating this incident?
20 A. Basically, we did not behave in another way than we did in any
21 other incident, which means that we tried to collect as much data as we
22 could: First of all, parts of the projectile; secondly, trying to, of
23 course, find the crater; and then trying to find parts of the projectile;
24 and then have a good look on all the things which are around, which are
25 specific for that occasion. Because every occasion was different, so you
1 look for every point you can find which is different.
2 And at the end you write that down, and you have a first draft of
3 your written report and then you have the most important data available.
4 You talk on the radio to the UNMO HQ and tell them what has happened.
5 Q. Among you and your two colleagues, Mr. Carbonell and Mr. Higgs,
6 did you have a allocation of duties? Was somebody doing something
7 specific while the other was doing something else?
8 A. Yes, I -- yes, we shared tasks. I kept the overview and I kept a
9 close eye on what the people of the Bosnian investigation team were doing;
10 Let's say, tried to liaise with them, together with my interpreter. And
11 Lieutenant Higgs used his compass and investigated the crater, and Captain
12 Carbonell assisted him with that and measured also -- used also his
13 compass and measured the distance between the crater and the wall of the
15 Q. Did you enter one of the buildings?
16 A. Yes, we did.
17 Q. And what did you observe?
18 A. We saw on the first floor all broken windows, some superficial
19 damage inside the building, and we found some body parts.
20 Q. You mentioned earlier that you were looking for parts of the
21 projectile. Did you find parts of the projectile?
22 A. Yes. We found the tail of the projectile and we found also some
23 shrapnel, but most important was the tail of the projectile.
24 Q. How far away from the crater was the projectile?
25 A. I'm not quite sure anymore. I think it must have been between
1 maybe ten, 20 metres.
2 Q. In what condition was the -- the part of the projectile? In fact,
3 I should ask you: What part of the projectile was found?
4 A. We found the tail of the projectile, and you can recognise it very
5 easy. We could read the inscriptions which are always in such a tail,
6 which gives the detail on the manufacturer and the lot it is part of, and
7 we could see that the tail-fins were bent.
8 Q. And did you form an opinion about the causes, the reasons while --
9 for the fact that the tail-fin was bent?
10 A. Not very specific, since in earlier occasions we found tail-fins
11 which were also damaged; and when a projectile hits the ground, huge
12 forces are coming around, and the material of which the tail-fins are made
13 can be bent, I will not say easy, but can be bent. So it was not a
14 specific thing what had occurred.
15 Q. When you say it was not a specific thing that this occurred, do
16 you mean that it wasn't something unusual?
17 A. Yeah, I mean that.
18 Q. You also talked about the crater. In what condition was -- was
19 the crater, perhaps compared to other craters you have seen while you were
20 in Sarajevo and indeed in Holland?
21 A. It was a very clear crater in the asphalt, in the concrete of the
22 street and it was immediately to recognise being a crater coming from a
23 mortar projectile, which is quite different from an artillery projectile.
24 And it -- I had seen many of these craters before in the same condition in
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi, we'll take the break now.
2 --- Recess taken at 12.22 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 12.48 p.m.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Waespi.
5 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. I realise that I've almost
6 eaten up an hour and that was the time originally allocated to me for
7 examination-in-chief. I ask leave to, in fact, continue and I'm sure it
8 will be another -- I hope to conclude it within the hour. Within the next
9 hour, within 60 minutes.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Oh, so you would have then taken almost two
12 MR. WAESPI: Yes.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. It's an underestimation of the time. This
14 is becoming a feature of the case that the Prosecution underestimates the
15 time. I am to say that the underestimation of the time will not affect
16 the total, the global, time set for the Prosecution's case.
17 MR. WAESPI: Yes. And I think occasionally we will make it up.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Proceed.
19 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Q. Going back to an earlier remark you made, Mr. Konings, when we
21 talked about the tail-fin you have found, and you mentioned an
22 inscriptions which featured the detail of the manufacturer. Do you
23 remember who the manufacturer was?
24 A. We found inscriptions in Cyrillic writing in the back of the tail,
25 which gave an indication that they were either Warsaw parts produced or
1 Serb produced. I'm not -- I do not know which factory exactly, but from
2 that inscription number, the type of number, you can trace back the batch
3 number of the projectile and the manufacturer, if you have the appropriate
4 documentation with you, which we hadn't.
5 Q. Thank you, Lieutenant-Colonel.
6 MR. WAESPI: Your Honours, I'd like to turn your attention, the
7 witness' attention, to Exhibit P265, this large board which is behind you,
8 Lieutenant-Colonel. I think can we leave it there so everybody can look
9 at it.
10 Q. Do you recognise this photo, Lieutenant-Colonel?
11 A. I recognise the photo, yes.
12 Q. And what does it depict?
13 A. It depicts the location of the explosion on the 28th of August, as
14 we have been talking about it before. It shows the crater which I have
15 been analysing and investigating there and -- well, the area of -- the
16 wider area of impact.
17 Q. Can you, perhaps with the help of your pointer there, point to the
18 crater you just talked about.
19 A. The crater is -- I'm pointing that now. This is the crater.
20 Q. And you mentioned earlier that you went to the inside, into the
21 inside of a building. Do you see that building here?
22 A. Yes, I think it has been this building.
23 Q. Thank you very much. Looking at the crater again, in your
24 experience, did you see any indication, any signs, of tampering with the
1 A. No, I didn't.
2 Q. You talked about the investigations you conducted with your
3 colleagues. Did you come to a conclusion as to the direction of fire?
4 A. Yes, we came to a firm conclusion, yes.
5 Q. And can you tell Their Honours your conclusion?
6 A. Our conclusion was, as I can recall, it was 170 degrees.
7 Q. And please tell us again, how did you ascertain that it was 170
8 degrees? What was the basis for that conclusion?
9 A. The basis for such a conclusion is that you try to follow the
10 steps you take in crater analysis, which is very hard to do in concrete
11 because the preferred methods are using sticks which you put into the
12 ground. And the basic point is you try to divide the crater you see in
13 equal patterns, in two equal patterns, and the middle line of these two
14 equal patterns gives you the rough bearing of where the projectile came
16 By using the stick method, as it's called, you can do it more
17 precise, but since -- well, wooden poles, you are not able to fix wooden
18 poles in concrete, and since you want to work fast in this tense
19 situation, we did not use the stick method. But since it's a very clear
20 crater, you can divide it in two halves, which we did, like this, and from
21 there, you take with your compass bearing in the -- over the middle line
22 of the two halves and that's your designated bearing you have.
23 Q. Now, we talked a little bit about crater analysis before the
24 break. Is it a difficult undertaking? Is it a science? Or how do you
25 feel about analysing these craters?
1 A. I would not describe it as a science, but you have to know the
2 basics. You have to know the difference between artillery and mortar
3 craters. From there you can work on the specifics of that. And you have
4 to, of course, know how to handle the basics of sharing both halves and
5 you have to be able to handle a compass in the right direction and to read
6 that kind of stuff.
7 So I wouldn't call it science. It's just -- it belongs to, more
8 or less, basic military skills when you are an UNMO.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's not rocket science.
10 THE WITNESS: It's not rocket science.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Since you mentioned the difference between mortar
12 and artillery, can you just tell me what that difference is?
13 THE WITNESS: The difference is that with an artillery projectile
14 you see --
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, no. Not the -- it's an even more basic
16 question. What is the distinction between artillery and mortar?
17 THE WITNESS: You mean in relation to the crater or in use or --
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just generally.
19 THE WITNESS: Generally, a mortar is a high-angle projectile,
20 which means that you fire it with a high angle which mean that the
21 projectile goes like this. Artillery is using a lower angle of fire,
22 which gives artillery a much bigger range to reach and gives it also more
23 accuracy than a mortar. There are much more differences between them, but
24 I think these are quite some distinctive differences.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much.
1 MR. WAESPI:
2 Q. Did you, then, Colonel, also come a conclusion as to the angle of
3 descent? In fact, I want to be more precise, to the minimum angle of
5 A. Yes, we calculated a possible minimum angle of impact, as we call
6 it, yes.
7 Q. And to what conclusion did you and your team come?
8 A. As far as I can recall, from what I said, it was about 67 degrees
9 impact angle, minimum impact angle.
10 Q. And can you tell Their Honours what this minimal impact angle
11 means. In relation to what?
12 A. When you have a minimum angle of impact, you can go into the
13 firing table, which is a book in which every firing detail of a weapon
14 system is stored, and for the different charges you can trace back the
15 distance from where the projectile was fired. So that gives you a certain
16 explanation from where, already, the origin of the weapon system was. But
17 for that you need to know the charge which was used.
18 Q. But let me go back to this angle. Can you tell us in relation to
19 what was it, 67 degrees? What was coming in at an angle of 67 degrees?
20 A. It means -- this angle means the angle the projectile hits the
21 street. So the projectile has hit the street under an angle of a minimum
22 of 67 degrees.
23 Q. And to have a reference number of 90 degrees would mean what?
24 A. It would be vertical down.
25 Q. Can you tell Their Honours how you came to the conclusion that it
1 was a minimum angle of 67 degrees?
2 A. Yes. It's a very simple, mathematical method. You measure the
3 distance from the crater, from the middle point of the crater, to the wall
4 of the house, you estimate the height of the house, and you can, with a
5 very simple mathematical method, you can calculate the minimum angle of
7 MR. WAESPI: Your Honours, I would like to show Your Honours and
8 the witness about 8-minute video which was shot at the time, around the
9 time, the lieutenant-colonel was on the scene.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
11 MR. WAESPI: And I don't think there is sound.
12 Q. So please feel free, Lieutenant-Colonel, to make comments,
13 especially when you see you or other personnel you are familiar with.
14 [Videotape played]
15 MR. WAESPI:
16 Q. Can you hear the sound of glass? Is that what you were talking
18 A. Yes. You can see it on the video now, how much glass is on the
20 [Videotape played]
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is it that you hope to get from this,
22 Mr. Waespi, because it's pretty dreadful.
23 MR. WAESPI: Yes. But, Your Honours, this is reality, and it will
24 go on into showing the members of the various teams that come to
25 investigate. You see the way the compass was used. I think it's
1 important to show that to Your Honours and to the witness.
2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.
4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Of course I have nothing against
5 the showing of this, but what use can it be with this witness? Because
6 when he came to the scene, he didn't see any of this. It cannot be of any
7 use with this witness because the witness was on the spot when it
8 happened. Otherwise I do not object to the showing as such.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can we just move to the section of the video
10 which is relevant to the witness. You said something about --
11 MR. WAESPI: Yes. We can try to move quickly.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: In fact I'm stopping it. I think it is really
13 awful and of very minimal evidential value.
14 MR. WAESPI: Yes. Perhaps we can do it from our desks, so not
15 display it to the courtroom, if that can be done, we'll move quickly
16 forward until to -- yes, we are here already.
17 [Videotape played]
18 MR. WAESPI:
19 Q. Do you have any comments?
20 A. These are French soldiers which were doing the UNPROFOR
21 investigation, and on the back you can see a civilian walking with -- on
22 the right side, that is myself, with the blue beret on the head, and the
23 civilian next to me is my interpreter. And these, again, are the French
24 UNPROFOR soldiers. That's -- on the left is Lieutenant Stephen Higgs, the
25 British guy. The French are making preparations to do their
1 investigation, and you see the three of us standing over there.
2 Now we are measuring the distance I was talking about, between the
3 impact and the wall.
4 Q. And that measure would be used to determine what?
5 A. That would be used in combination with the estimation of the
6 height of the building to estimate the minimal angle of impact. The left
7 is the Spanish captain with, again, Lieutenant Higgs.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Were there any members of the government police
9 force carrying out investigations with you at that time?
10 THE WITNESS: In the same period that we were doing investigation,
11 people of the Bosnian police, I'm not quite sure whether they were --
12 let's call it government representatives, were also doing their thing,
13 let's put it that way. But I cannot recall what exactly they were doing
14 because we were busy gathering our own details.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: You were never investigating the same area.
16 THE WITNESS: They were investigating the same area and they were
17 collecting, in all these cases, and also in this case, the same data as we
18 collected, but we did it in a separate way. So I paid attention to my own
19 work and not to the work that the Bosnians were doing.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: So when you came to a determination as to the
21 direction from which the shell came, how was that arrived at in relation
22 to the government police force? Was there any discussion with them?
23 THE WITNESS: I cannot recall that precisely. I'm sure we
24 discussed that with them, but what is more important to me on that
25 specific moment was that we compared our data, especially the bearing,
1 with the French data, the French UNPROFOR data. That's what we did on the
2 spot, to be sure that we had -- that we had a comparison with each other.
3 And whether we compared that with the Bosnian investigation, I cannot
4 recall that anymore. It was too busy at that moment.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Waespi.
6 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Can you tell Their Honours what you see on the screen right now?
8 A. What you see on the screen is the central area of the crater,
9 which gives you the point where the projectile hits the ground, which is a
10 kind of very small crater inside the big crater. Let's say that's the
11 point of impact. And of course on the left-hand side you see a French
12 soldier with his compass ready to take the bearing.
13 Q. Did you and your colleagues and the French measure these data
14 independently of each other and discuss it later, or did you have a joint
16 A. What we did is that the compass bearing we did independent from
17 each other. The measurement of the distance between the central part of
18 the crater until the wall, the French measured because they had a special
19 measuring device for that, and we checked it, whether we could agree with
20 that distance.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. WAESPI: If we -- maybe, for the record, this is at 5 minutes,
23 55 seconds, and it -- yes, just two minutes before the end.
24 [Videotape played]
25 MR. WAESPI:
1 Q. If we can continue, please.
2 A. That's my hand checking with the French soldiers what is happening
3 and what they were doing, because I speak a small -- a bit of French. And
4 that's the scene as we found it.
5 Q. Yes.
6 MR. WAESPI: I believe we can stop now the video, and please
7 remove it from the screen. If that could be tendered into evidence,
8 Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P355, Your Honours.
11 MR. WAESPI:
12 Q. Now, let me ask you this, Lieutenant-Colonel: Is what you found
13 on the scene, the bodies, the shrapnel, the tail-fin, whatever you saw and
14 experienced, is that consistent with what you told us earlier about the
15 impact a 120-millimetre mortar can have?
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic. Remember that the --
17 remember that evidence has already been led about the impact of
18 120-millimetre mortar. I was anticipating your point, but, anyway, let me
19 hear what have you to say.
20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't know whether I got the
21 right interpretation, but Prosecutor Mr. Waespi suggested what you have
22 found, bodies, and some other elements; whereas, I didn't hear from the
23 witness that he himself had found a single body on the site. But if the
24 interpretation was correct, Mr. Waespi seems to have said "bodies,"
25 suggesting something that the witness did not mention until now.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, did you find any bodies on the scene?
2 THE WITNESS: No.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you find shrapnel?
4 THE WITNESS: We found shrapnels, the tail, and body parts.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: And you found body parts but not bodies.
6 THE WITNESS: Not complete bodies.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: And you found the tail-fin?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Reformulate the question, Mr. Waespi.
10 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Your Honour.
11 Q. Based on what you had found and seen on the crime scene, was that
12 consistent with what you had described earlier as the impact of a
13 120-millimetre mortar could be?
14 A. Yes. I think it is consistent with what I think a 120 projectile
15 can do, yeah.
16 Q. And do you know how many victims there were, how many dead people?
17 A. During that day, the number varied; but as I can recall, at the
18 end of the day, there were, I mean, 38 victims, dead people.
19 Q. We're jumping ahead a little bit. Did you go to the morgue?
20 A. Yes, we did.
21 Q. And what did you see there?
22 A. Well, very briefly, on that moment, I think we got about 35 -- we
23 counted about 35 killed people. They were all lying in the morgue which,
24 at the time was a big concrete cellar with nothing in it, no tables, or no
25 furniture at all. People were lying on the floor; and as I have told
1 before, you could see very clearly that they were very recently killed,
2 because blood was still coming out of their wounds and the way they were
3 lying, you could see that they were recently killed.
4 Q. And when did you go to the morgue?
5 A. That must have been shortly between 12.00 and 1.00. I cannot be
6 more precise.
7 Q. And that's on the same day, on the 28th of August?
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. And let me go back to my earlier point. Is the result of 38
10 victims, dead people, consistent with what you had described earlier as a
11 possible impact of a 120-millimetre mortar fired at that specific
13 A. I think it's consistent. Yeah, I'm convinced of that.
14 MR. WAESPI: Your Honours, if we could have the -- Exhibit P85,
15 which is 65 ter 00198, a patrol report.
16 Q. Can you tell Their Honours what you see on the screen?
17 A. Yes, I see a copy of the handwritten patrol report of the 28th of
18 August, 1995.
19 Q. And what is a patrol report?
20 A. After -- after every patrol, according to the UNMO regulations, we
21 had to write a written statement which is the patrol report, in which you
22 have the opportunity to write down every single detail you saw, you
23 discovered during your patrol.
24 Q. And if you can tell us who wrote this report?
25 A. This report was written by myself.
1 Q. Can you briefly tell us what it contains specifically.
2 A. It contains a summarized description of the facts we saw during
3 that day, especially during the investigation in the morning.
4 Q. And does it contain under "Observations," in the middle of the
5 page, under the first subheading 1, a remark about the bearings, the
6 direction of fire?
7 A. Yeah, it does.
8 Q. And what does it say?
9 A. 170 degrees.
10 Q. Now paragraph 2, if you could read that to -- to Their Honours?
11 A. Yes. "The bearings in combination with the estimated angle of
12 impact could give no evidence on the origin of fire since not is it none
13 with which charge the projectile -- the projectile has been fired."
14 Q. Now, can you explain to Their Honours what that means?
15 A. That means exactly as it says, that on the -- on the moment that
16 we were on the spot and on the moment that I wrote this report, that we
17 could not establish evidence of the origin of fire. We could establish a
18 bearing, a direction from where the firing came from, but we could not
19 give any evidence on the origin.
20 Q. And what is needed to come to a conclusion as to the origin?
21 A. If you have the estimated angle of impact and if you have a
22 bearing, then you -- the only other thing you need to know is the charge
23 with which the projectile was fired. Because to every charge there is an
24 a set of distances connected; and when you have the angle of impact of 60,
25 70 degrees and you know which charge it is, you can directly connect it to
1 an estimated distance, and then -- and then you can -- you can come up
2 with a possible origin of fire.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: And was it not possible to ascertain the charge?
4 THE WITNESS: No. You cannot find out the charge that was fired
5 because you have no evidence on the -- the spot of the explosion where the
6 shell lands of any charge anymore of the. You cannot see that. Unless
7 you have a highly sophisticated technical available, which can only be
8 done in the factory, maybe with whatever equipment you have available to
9 find out how many traces of -- the powder, gun powder is on the tail. But
10 we did not have any possibility for that.
11 MR. WAESPI:
12 Q. Now, did you receive other information which allowed you to make a
13 determination as to the source of fire?
14 A. Yes. We had on the same moment that -- no, I should said --
15 rephrase that. Our OP1 in the south part of the city, in the mountains,
16 was manned 24 hours a day by two UNMOs. They covered the complete area of
17 the city. They could see the complete -- nearly the complete city of
18 Sarajevo, especially to the north and the west part. And the day of the
19 28th of August, the weather was very clear, very sunny, very bright.
20 There was hardly any wind, and there was -- it was very quiet so
21 there were no battle noises, no firing during that morning, which means
22 that any firing from there area where our OP1 was located, especially from
23 a 120 mortar, would have been seen or heard by the UNMOs on the OP1. And
24 that, in combination with the bearing, gave us the conclusion that the
25 origin of fire must have been behind the mountains, so inside Serb
2 Q. You talked about OP1, which was in the south part of the city in
3 the mountains. Were you ever at OP1?
4 A. I have been on OP1 on many occasions and fulfilled also these
5 24-hour duties.
6 Q. And who gave you the information that there was no firing during
7 that morning?
8 A. That information came direct to me from the two UNMOs on OP1;
9 Lieutenant Commander Thom Knustad and Major Paul Conway?
10 Q. And what did they tell you?
11 A. They told us that there was no outgoing round from their facility,
12 no outgoing round from any type, so not 120, from their broader vicinity;
13 not only the direct vicinity, but I'm talking now about the broader
14 vicinity which is -- well, if you look on the map, it goes up to nearly
15 one kilometre or maybe even behind.
16 Q. Yes. We'll have a chance to look at a photo in a moment.
17 How professional were the observes that you on OP1 that day, and
18 you mentioned Mr. Knustad?
19 A. Especially he was already a longer period in Sarajevo. He was at
20 that period already designated to be my successor as a team leader, and he
21 succeeded me when I left. And he also, just like I am was an artillery
22 man, a Norwegian coastal artillery, so he had more or less the same
23 experience with the use of artillery and mortars.
24 Q. And tell us again the significance of Mr. Knustad and his
25 colleague not hearing any outgoing round at that time?
1 A. Well, it -- it is the missing clue in -- in trying to designate
2 the origin of fire of that specific round. In case it would -- the round
3 would have been fired from Bosnian army territory, it the round would been
4 done -- in combination with this minimum angle of impact, it would been
5 done with charge zero, the lowest charge you can fire. If you trace that
6 back from the origin of impact, you would have come in the area around
7 OP1. The place of origin of fire would have been in the area around OP1.
8 And since on that quiet day you cannot miss, to my professional
9 opinion, an outgoing 120-millimetre round, it's a loud bang. You cannot
10 miss it, you will see it, you will see the flash, you will see the smoke.
11 Well, that brings you to the conclusion that the round came from further
12 away; and since there was no noise heard, it must have been come from
13 behind the mountain ridge, which is on the south side of the city of
14 Sarajevo, which muffles the sound.
15 MR. WAESPI: If we can pull up, Mr. President, exhibit 65 ter
16 number 00197, and it should be a map displayed shortly.
17 Q. Do you remember having signed a map which was attached to your
18 witness statement?
19 A. I did remember that, yes.
20 MR. WAESPI: It's a coloured map. That's why it takes a little
21 longer, Mr. President, Judge Mindua.
22 MR. WAESPI:
23 Q. Is that the map you can displayed here?
24 A. It is that map, yes.
25 Q. Did you see a marking OP1?
1 A. Yes, I see that.
2 Q. And with the help of the usher you could circle around that
3 marking, and attach, please, the letter A next to it.
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. Do you also see a marking depicting the team base?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. Can you please circle it and attach letter B next to it.
8 A. [Marks]
9 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, if that could be tendered as an
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P356, Your Honours.
13 MR. WAESPI:
14 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel, that day, 28th August 1995, did you before the
15 shell exploded already pass by Markale on that morning?
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. And why did you pass by Markale?
18 A. It's located in the main street of the central city -- of the
19 central part of the says of Sarajevo, and it was part of our patrols and I
20 had a habit, as a team leader, that I went every morning for a visit to
21 the UNMO HQ at the PTT building, just to have a short talk with my -- with
22 the senior military observer and to check with the OPs officers, whether
23 there were specific details that we needed to know. So I passed there
24 during that morning between, I think, 9.00 and 10.00 on the later on where
25 the explosion took place.
1 Q. So that was roughly one or two hours before the explosion. Can
2 you tell Their Honours what you saw while passing by that location?
3 A. Yes. It was quite crowded in comparison with other days. A lot
4 of people on the street, most civilians, the usual activity of patrolling
5 police officers and some military; and especially in that reasonable
6 narrow part of the street, there were lots of people on the sidewalk.
7 People were selling goods or trading, changing goods to have money to buy
8 food, et cetera, et cetera. So it was quite crowded.
9 Q. And when you talk about the sidewalks, are you talking about the
10 exact location which you see displayed behind you on that board?
11 A. Yes. That was part of the sidewalk, yes.
12 Q. Now, driving past did you have any thoughts about these people
13 being gathered there?
14 A. Well, I had some strange thoughts about that, because as we had it
15 before that when people gathered and firing occurred that people get
16 killed. So I didn't trust the situation that morning. It's just an
17 emotional feeling, but I had the idea this is not right. It is too quiet
18 and there are too many people on the streets. There is no evidence for
19 that, and it's just feeling and my experience you after five months in
20 such a city, but that was my feelings on that moment.
21 Q. Thank you. Let me conclude this part asking you since you were
22 there before and after the explosion, was it possible to stage this scene,
23 to drag dead bodies to the scene?
24 A. In relation to what I saw in the morning when I passed there, I'm
25 convinced that is not possible to stage.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Tell us why.
2 THE WITNESS: First of all, in the morning, there was no crater on
3 the street. I'm absolutely sure of that, so that means you have to create
4 a crater. Have you to create, to make artificially a crater, like what
5 you see on the photograph. I don't think you can make that in short time
6 frame between my first appearance there and then later on.
7 Secondly, to create that other chaos which was there, in the
8 middle of a crowd of people who are trying to -- to live on, trying to get
9 some food, to my opinion, that is impossible, to create such a situation
10 without people asking questions or protesting against that. So ...
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: You told us earlier that some 30 minutes elapsed
12 between the time you received the report and the time of your arrival.
13 Wouldn't that have been enough time for bodies to have been moved to that
15 THE WITNESS: I will not say that it is impossible to do that in
16 30 minutes; but, again, seeing the amount of people that were inflicted
17 by -- on that moment on that morning, seeing in the morgue the freshness
18 of the body, you must have -- you should have get them somewhere. There
19 were no reports that morning whatsoever that there were at least 35 people
20 killed on another spot in the vicinity of Sarajevo at all.
21 And, again, there was no crater before I came -- when I drove
22 there that morning. I'm convinced that in combination with what you saw,
23 the bodies that I saw, the chaos that was created, civilians that -- the
24 number of civilians that was walking around before on the street, that
25 this is impossible to stage it.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Now, Lieutenant-Colonel, if you just take a look
2 at the Prosecution exhibit to your rear, to the back, that's the -- amidst
3 that picture of destruction, we see two bicycles in what appears to be in
4 a wholesome condition, not damaged. Do you remember seeing those bicycles
5 when you were there?
6 THE WITNESS: No, I don't. I don't remember that anymore, no. I
7 have no idea whether they were there, yes or no.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Waespi.
9 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. That was a reference to
10 Prosecution Exhibit P265.
11 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel, did you investigate the impact of four other
12 shells that impacted in the vicinity of Markale?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. And can you tell us as brief as you can, about that investigation.
15 That investigation was done in the afternoon; I think it was around 2.00.
16 There were four other impacts. Two of three of them were in an open
17 concrete parking lot, and one of them -- at least one of them was in the
18 top of a building of a -- I think it was a -- a business apartment
20 Q. Did you personally conduct the investigation?
21 A. Yes, we did, with the same team as we did the morning.
22 Q. And were there any casualties involved?
23 A. As I can recall there were a few casualties, but I'm not quite
24 sure how many anymore.
25 Q. Did you investigate into the direction of fire these four shells
1 came from?
2 A. Yes, we did.
3 Q. And can you tell us the result of your investigation?
4 A. As far as I can recall, it was -- I mean, that we said between 220
5 and 240 degrees.
6 Q. And do you remember whether you came to a conclusion as to what
7 calibre, indeed what mortar, these shells were fired from?
8 A. We came to the conclusion that it was also 120-millimetre mortars.
9 Q. And where was the impact in relation to the Markale impact? How
10 far away?
11 A. It was on the other side of the block behind Markale in southern
12 direction, roughly southern direction, and I estimate there were a few --
13 maybe 200 metres between the Markale impact and the other impact.
14 Q. And did you come to a conclusion as to -- from which territory
15 these four shells were fired?
16 A. No, we didn't make a firm conclusion on that. So we just could
17 make the bearing and that we couldn't make any origin of fire.
18 Q. Now turning to the next day, 29th of August, 1995, were you
19 involved in activities in relation to the Markale 2 investigation?
20 A. Yes, I was. On the 28th, the leader of the Bosnian investigation
21 team, a judge of the supreme court in Sarajevo, asked me whether I could
22 be an observer in the investigation team, and I got information from my
23 superior officer to do that. So on the 29th of August, I was in the
24 meeting, in several meetings that took place in Sarajevo on -- on the
25 further investigation of the incident.
1 Q. Were you also involved in a briefing at the UNMO headquarters in
2 that morning?
3 A. Yes, I was.
4 Q. And who briefed whom?
5 A. On the 29th in the morning, we had our regular team meeting at the
6 UNMO HQ under the direction of our senior military observer, and he asked
7 me to give a briefing of what happened on the 28th of August to my
8 colleague team leaders.
9 Q. Can you tell Your Honours what you told your colleagues.
10 A. Basically I went through the patrol report, and we discussed a lot
11 of professional details, so I cannot recall every detail anymore, but it
12 was a discussion between professional soldiers about what happened or what
13 could have happened and the way we looked against it, and it was also a --
14 a learning discussion, since nobody of us had ever in that period had such
15 an experience, so it was also a learning thing.
16 Q. What was peculiar about the experience you had?
17 A. Well, the peculiar thing is not the happening itself but the --
18 well, the sheer impact it had. Let's say in military terms, we call it
19 the effect it had. And the effect was much -- much bigger than any of us
20 in that period had -- had ever seen.
21 Q. Did you talk to other people outside the group of team leaders and
22 your chain of command about your findings in relation to Markale 2?
23 A. Just inside my own team. The extra people I talked about the
24 Markale incident were the -- were my own UNMOs in my team in Sedrenik.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: When you talk about the effect being bigger than
1 anything that you had seen previously, what do you mean? Are you just
2 referring to the number of persons who were killed and injured? Or what
3 do you have in mind?
4 THE WITNESS: When I am talking about the effect, I was thinking
5 about that day or the day after when I was talking to the team leaders.
6 We were discussing the sheer amount as you are referring to. So that
7 means 38 killed people and nearly 100 wounded.
8 When I talk about the effect, being the person I am today, I talk
9 also about the indirect effects that that projectile had on the -- on the
10 further development politically and military scene after that.
11 MR. WAESPI:
12 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel, you told us you were to attend a meeting with
13 the Bosnian police on the 29th of August. What kind of meeting was that,
14 and what was your involvement?
15 A. As I said, it was -- there was a special investigation team formed
16 by the -- by the Bosnian authorities. They already started to have a
17 meeting on the 28th in the afternoon and in the evening. I was also
18 present then. And the idea was that they were collecting all relevant
19 information in relation to that impact, pictures, shrapnels, any other
20 evidence you -- you can think about. So they were putting together a
21 complete report for the Bosnian authorities, and what the intention was to
22 do with that report, I cannot -- I have no idea about that. But -- and I
23 was a part of the meeting. As I told you, I was an observer, so I didn't
24 take part in the discussions, although people tried to -- to -- to get me
25 so far that I came up with certain statements they would like to hear.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: We're going to take the break now.
2 We'll resume tomorrow at 2.15.
3 -- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,
4 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 13th day of
5 March, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.