1 Tuesday, 17 April 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: At the outset let me give one decision. On the
6 23rd of March, the Prosecution filed a motion for admission of the written
7 witness statements of Ronald Eimmers, and this was pursuant to Rule 92
8 ter. In its response filed on the 30th of March, the Defence defers to
9 the Trial Chamber but requests to be allocated reasonable time for
10 cross-examination. The Trial Chamber grants the Prosecution motion and
11 admits the statement into evidence upon fulfilment of the conditions set
12 out in 92 ter.
13 The time originally estimated for this witness' testimony was two
14 and a half hours. In its motion, the Prosecution estimates that the
15 overall length of time required to be two hours. Accordingly, the Trial
16 Chamber allocates 45 minutes to the Prosecution for examination-in-chief
17 and one hour to the Defence for cross-examination.
18 I'll just raise one other matter. On the 11th of April, the
19 Prosecution filed a motion for leave to amend its Rule 65 ter exhibit list
20 by adding 11 excerpts of video footage filmed by the BBC. The excerpts
21 depict shelling and sniping incidents in Sarajevo were filmed by Martin
22 Bell, witness W-157. Pursuant to Rule 126 bis, the Defence is entitled to
23 file their response by Tuesday, 24th April. However, in the interests of
24 expediting a decision on the motion, it would be helpful if the Defence
25 could submit their response by Thursday, 19th April.
1 Would the Defence be in a position to do this?
2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. The Defence has no
3 objection. We shall provide our response by Thursday, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Tapuskovic.
5 Now, I understand the Prosecution had some matters to raise.
6 Mr. Sachdeva.
7 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes, Mr. President. Good morning to Your Honours.
8 In fact, the first submission is exactly on that topic with respect to the
9 videos excerpts. One of the excerpts that we have sought to add on the
10 11th of April to our exhibit list pertains to the first witness to testify
11 this morning, and therefore I would ask leave to be able to -- to use this
12 video excerpt with Witness 57. I have on Friday last week sent --
13 corresponded with the Defence for my intentions and also my intention to
14 seek leave from the Trial Chamber, and I understand that my learned
15 counsel has no objection to the use of this excerpt with this witness.
16 But that is my submission with respect to this particular excerpt.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We will allow that.
19 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 The next application is one pursuant to Rule 75 for protective
21 measures. The Witness 116 who is due to testify this afternoon or after
22 the first witness requests image distortion and pseudonym on the grounds
23 that he is an electrical engineer and regularly travels in the Republika
24 Srpska, and he is -- he is concerned that should be identified as a
25 witness, his safety may be jeopardised. I have explained this to learned
1 counsel, and I understand she has no objections.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We will grant that application.
3 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President. And if there is nothing
4 else, we're ready to call the next witness, Witness 57.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
8 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
9 WITNESS: WITNESS W-57
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.
12 Examination by Mr. Sachdeva:
13 Q. Good morning, Witness. I'll just start by telling you that the
14 Court has granted protection and, therefore, I will refer to you as
15 Witness 57 and you should be careful not to identify anything that will
16 identify to you the public.
17 Firstly, I'm going to hand you a piece of paper with some personal
18 details, and I would like you to confirm to the Court if those details are
20 A. Yes, this -- the particulars are correct. Yes, the particulars
21 are correct.
22 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you. Once that has been seen, may I ask that
23 be admitted under seal, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
25 MR. SACHDEVA:
1 Q. Witness 57 --
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we will admit that the as P537,
3 under seal.
4 MR. SACHDEVA:
5 Q. Witness 57, do you remember giving statements to the Office of the
6 Prosecutor on the 21st of November, 1995 and the 16th of May, 2006?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. Yesterday, were you given an opportunity to review and read over
9 those statements?
10 A. Yes, I was.
11 Q. And upon review of those statements, are you able now in court to
12 confirm the accuracy and correctness of those statements, to the best of
13 your knowledge and recollection?
14 A. Yes. I read them in their entirety and whatever is contained
15 therein is correct.
16 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, could I ask that 03 -- 65 ter 03106
17 be brought up on the screen and that it's not broadcast.
18 Q. Witness 57, do you see a statement there and your signature at the
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. If I was to ask you questions today, would the answers you give
22 the Court reflect the contents of this statement?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I ask that this statement be
25 tendered under seal, and I note for the purposes of the record that in
1 page 3 of the statement, the two substantive paragraphs refer to incidents
2 that have been dropped pursuant to the Rule 73 bis order. So in line with
3 your decision, those parts of the statement should not be admitted into
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. They will be admitted.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes P538, under seal.
7 MR. SACHDEVA: Can I now ask that 65 ter 03107 be brought up on
8 the screen; again, not to be broadcast, please.
9 Q. Witness 57, again, do you see a statement there and your signature
10 on the first page?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. If I was to ask you questions today, would the answers that you
13 give to the Court reflect the contents of this statement?
14 A. Yes, absolutely.
15 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I ask if this could be admitted
16 under seal, please.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We admit it.
18 THE REGISTRAR: As P539, under seal, Your Honours.
19 MR. SACHDEVA:
20 Q. Now, I just want to ask a clarification from you, Witness. If we
21 could go back to the first statement, that is 03106. And if we could move
22 to the fourth page, taking the cover sheet as the first page, please.
23 Witness, if you look on the right-hand side of your screen, you'll
24 see the statement in your language, and I want you to concentrate on the
25 fifth paragraph. Do you see the fifth paragraph there?
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. Actually, in the B/C/S version, it's the fourth one. It's the one
3 above that. But if you look at that paragraph above the fifth one, you
4 see a sentence that says: "A witness saw the bomb being fired."
5 Do you see that sentence there? And this is in relation to the
6 7th of April, 1995 incident.
7 A. Can you please indicate where it is so that I can find it.
8 Q. From my understanding of the B/C/S, I think it's the fourth
9 paragraph and it starts --
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you have it?
12 A. Yes. I see it.
13 Q. And what does it say, that sentence?
14 A. It was an old Bosnian house. A witness saw the bomb being fired.
15 It flew for 15 seconds. There were more witnesses working in the field,
16 and the projectile left smoke on its trajectory as usual.
17 Q. Okay. Thank you. That's fine. Now if we could move to the next
18 statement, which is 303107, please, and if we could go to page 4.
19 Now, Witness, if you lock at paragraph 16, that's on the top of
20 the page, you should see a sentence that says, and I'm quoting from the
21 English version: "They did not see the projectile being launched, just
22 the activity."
23 Do you see that sentence there in paragraph 16?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. So in the first statement, you said that the witness saw the bomb
1 being fired; and in the second statement, it is now said that you now say
2 the projectile -- they did not see the projectile being launched. Can you
3 explain that apparent discrepancy to the Court, please?
4 A. Yes, I can. After the event, there was talk that scouts, members
5 of the BH army, had seen some activities in the area from which the
6 projectile had been launched. Therefore, initially, when I made my first
7 statement, I took it that they had seen it because I wasn't in charge, and
8 I wasn't in a position to take statements from members of the army. I
9 simply put it therefore in that manner, and I didn't specific that they
10 simply didn't see it because I didn't have an opportunity to document this
11 properly and accurately. In other words, I heard it from people, but I
12 was unable to take statements from them.
13 Q. Did you hear it from people that someone saw the bomb being
15 A. Yes. The people who lived in Sokolovic Kolonija working in the
16 field exactly saw the trail and the location from which it -- this
17 modified air bomb was fired, and it left a very clear trail indicating the
18 direction from which it came. Actually, it flew over them, and the people
19 from Sokolovic saw from the north-westerly side a projectile coming,
20 leaving a thick black smoke and emitting a strange sound.
21 Q. Okay. I'm going to ask you to mark these locations on a map in a
22 moment, but let me ask you this, and, Mr. President, I don't believe this
23 is disputed. You were a police officer for the Hrasnica police which was
24 part of the Ilidza police station, is that right, during the war?
25 A. Yes, that's correct.
1 Q. Can you tell the Court roughly how many civilians lived in
2 Hrasnica during the war?
3 A. Hrasnica, Butmir, and Sokolovic that were covered by the police
4 station of Ilidza, or rather, the police administration of Ilidza had
5 between 25 and 30.000 inhabitants before the war. However, during the
6 war, a lot of refugees from Trnovo and Eastern Bosnia came, which
7 increased the number of inhabitants up to 50.000. It was a very
8 overcrowded area in a very small space.
9 Q. And during your time with the police in Hrasnica in the war, are
10 you able to indicate roughly how many civilians were killed because of
11 shelling and sniping in Hrasnica?
12 A. Roughly speaking, I don't have exact numbers because we didn't
13 keep records at the beginning of the war, because we were busy
14 establishing authority organs. But between 800 -- sorry. 1800 and 2.000
15 residents were killed and between five and 10.000 inhabitants were wounded
16 either once or more than once. So these are just rough figures.
17 Q. And even though these are rough figures, what's the basis of your
18 knowledge for these figures? How did you ascertain this information?
19 A. I believe that in a conversation with some people, they mentioned
20 1890 people, but they also told me that there were other cases of people
21 who got killed. But these people were just in transit so the approximate
22 figure varied between 800 and 2.000. I believe that the municipal organs
23 have the exact figures. I didn't have them.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: I am sorry. Did you say 800 or 1800 that the
25 figures varied between.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise. 1800.
2 MR. SACHDEVA:
3 Q. Witness, did you ever -- did you or your colleagues ever review
4 burial records from Hrasnica?
5 A. I think that these records were established only in late 1992.
6 Prior to that, I believe that municipal authorities and the people from
7 the Islamic religious organisations could have provided the exact figure
8 about the casualties. I do believe that a municipality has these records,
9 for sure.
10 Q. Very well. I'm now going to show you a map, and that map is 65
11 ter 02738.
12 Witness, you should see a map coming up on the screen in a moment,
13 and I'm going to ask you a few questions about that.
14 MR. SACHDEVA: If perhaps the bottom left-hand side corner could
15 be blown up.
16 Q. Okay. Witness, do you see Hrasnica there?
17 A. Yes. I can see Hrasnica.
18 Q. With the assistance of the court usher, can you take a marker pen
19 and just put an H by -- or circle Hrasnica, please.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. And then just put a H by the circle.
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. Now, do you also see -- are you able to locate on this map the
24 Butmir-Dobrinja tunnel?
25 A. Yes. I can see the tunnel in Dobrinja.
1 Q. Can you please mark the route the tunnel took in a dotted line.
2 A. Can I have the map enlarged a bit, please.
3 MR. SACHDEVA: I think that if it's enlarged, the marking will --
4 can you see it on this size?
5 A. Yes. I put the line.
6 Q. Excellent. Can you place the letter T, please, beside that.
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. Now, do you also see the Igman road, the road leading up to Igman
9 Mountain on that map?
10 A. Yes. I can see the road leading to Mount Igman.
11 Q. And can I similarly mark it with a -- [French on English channel]
12 MR. SACHDEVA: I think I'm receiving French translation.
13 Q. Witness, can you mark the road on the map, please, with a line,
14 follow the route of the road?
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. And I would like you to, if you can, mark the confrontation lines;
17 firstly to the south of Hrasnica and also up towards Ilidza. Are you able
18 to do that?
19 A. I'll try.
20 Q. Okay. With those two lines, can you with the letters VRS mark the
21 area controlled by the army of Republika Srpska, please.
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. Do you know where the Famos factory is?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. Can you circle it, please, and put the letter F beside it.
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. And which party to the conflict controlled the Famos factory? Was
3 it the VRS or the ABiH?
4 A. Three-quarters of the south-eastern part of the factory was taken
5 by the army of Republika Srpska. Only a small part towards the Hrasnica
6 settlement was covered by the BH army.
7 Q. Can you indicate on the map which small part was controlled by the
8 ABiH? Is that possible? If you can somehow put the letters ABiH to
9 signify that small circle, it would be most helpful.
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. Now, you investigated an incident on the 7th of April, 1995; is
12 that right?
13 A. Yes, that's correct.
14 Q. Did you go to the scene and conduct an on-site investigation?
15 A. Yes. I went on the site; saw what had happened; went back to the
16 police station; informed all the authorities, the judge; prepared a team
17 to carry out an on-site investigation; and when I had a complete team, we
18 went to the site and arrived there.
19 Q. Can you see the site of the incident on this map; and if you can,
20 can you just mark it?
21 A. Yes, I can. But could Hrasnica be zoomed in on a little bit,
22 please, so I can be more precise.
23 Q. That's actually not going to be possible because I would like for
24 the purposes of recording the evidence everything to be marked on this
25 map. But if you can just put a small -- a small S in the place roughly
1 where the incident took place in Hrasnica, that will be sufficient.
2 A. I'll put a dot there and mark it with the letter S.
3 Q. Thank you. Now, when you did your investigation, and in fact from
4 your earlier evidence about the -- about being told where the bomb was
5 launched, where was that place from where the bomb was launched?
6 A. The place from which it was launched or the place where it landed?
7 Q. From where it was launched.
8 A. Let me mention again what I stated right at the beginning. I
9 heard but was unable to confirm definitely that members of the army of
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina, who were on Mount Igman on the observation post,
11 noticed that in the water works area, around Bacevo, something odd was
12 happening, that there was a truck with some odd kind of launcher, that
13 strange things were happening, and this is all approximate, but near the
14 Bacevo water works building at Bacevo, which was under the control of the
16 Q. Very well. And if you can see that on the map, can you please
17 mark it.
18 A. It's not quite clear here. I can't see it very clearly, but I
19 think I've marked it correctly. I have put a dot here. But if we could
20 zoom in, I would like that very much, because it's hard to see here.
21 Q. From that dot that you have just marked on the map, can you draw a
22 line to -- a line to the place where the bomb exploded?
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. And on that line, can you place an arrow indicating the direction?
25 A. [Marks]
1 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I ask that this map be admitted into
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As P540, Your Honours.
5 MR. SACHDEVA: Can I now ask that Prosecution Exhibit 226 be
6 brought up on the screen.
7 Q. Witness 57, you see a document there on your screen?
8 A. Yes. Yes, I can see the document.
9 Q. And do you see there at the top left-hand corner it says, "the SRK
10 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command, strictly confidential," and it is dated
11 the 6th of April? Do you see that?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. And the next line says, "to the Ilidza Infantry Brigade." Do you
14 see that as well?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. And at the bottom, it is signed by Commander Major Dragomir
17 Milosevic. Do you see that?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. Now, I want you to look at the bottom paragraph under the word
20 "Order," and I want you to concentrate on the sentence that reads: "The
21 most profitable target must be selected in the Hrasnica or Sokolovic
22 Kolonija where the greatest casualties and material damage would be
24 Do you see that sentence there?
25 A. Yes. Yes, I do see it.
1 Q. With respect to that sentence, if we're talking about Hrasnica,
2 are there any military installations in the centre of Hrasnica -- or I
3 should say were any military installations in the centre of Hrasnica in
4 the period 1994/1995?
5 A. In Hrasnica itself, there were no military facilities. There were
6 some military facilities on the defence lines.
7 Q. Yes. I'm going to ask you to stick to the centre of town,
8 Hrasnica itself. Were there any military barracks in the centre of town
9 in Hrasnica?
10 A. In the Hrasnica area, Sokolovic Kolonija, and Butmir, there were
11 no military facilities in the settlements itself, either before or during
12 the bar. We had no barracks in fact. The soldiers lived at home with
13 their families.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would you explain what you meant when you said
15 there were some military facilities on the defence lines?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were buildings where those
17 holding the defence lines changed shifts. There were such facilities.
18 They held the lines and stood guard there, and this was along the
19 demarcation lines.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: How far was that from the centre of the town?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Referring to Hrasnica, it's the part
22 towards the Famos factory, some 200 or 300 metres away from the buildings
23 up to the demarcation line. The demarcation line was some 100 or 150
24 metres away from civilian buildings, houses.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Thank you.
1 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I'm sorry for interrupting,
2 Prosecutor. I just would like some clarification, Witness.
3 Could you tell me, whether, because I haven't really understood
4 properly, whether the Famos factory was located in Hrasnica or in
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Famos factory was located in
8 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] You said "Hrasnica," didn't you?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] This is my last question to you:
11 Is that where the battle took place, the battle which pitched the Light
12 Infantry Brigade of Republika Srpska against the forces of the army of
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely so. There was fighting
15 along the demarcation lines.
16 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.
17 MR. SACHDEVA: Could I now ask that 65 ter, or rather, Prosecution
18 Exhibit 225 be brought up on the screen, please.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Prosecutor, could I ask you that last order
21 from the SRK dated 6th of April -- I am sorry. I did not catch whether
22 this has already been tendered into evidence.
23 MR. SACHDEVA: It has, Your Honour. It is Prosecution Exhibit
24 226. It was tendered through Witness Butt.
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you so much.
1 MR. SACHDEVA:
2 Q. Now, Witness, there is another document on the screen, and, again,
3 it appears to emanate from the SRK, the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command,
4 and it's dated the 7th of April, 1995. Do you see that on your screen?
5 A. I apologise, but could you please repeat your question.
6 Q. I just ask whether you see this document on your screen, which
7 emanates from the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, dated the 7th of April, 1995?
8 A. Yes. Yes, I do see it.
9 MR. SACHDEVA: If we could now move to the second page, please.
10 Q. Witness, on this page, you'll see at point 2 the heading, "Our
11 Forces." Do you see that?
12 A. Yes. Yes, I do.
13 Q. And the second -- the second paragraph or sentence reads: "In
14 Ilidza Brigade, one 20-millimetre mine was fired and one 250-kilogram AB
15 aerial bomb was launched at the centre of Hrasnica. According to the
16 interception centre, the Muslims claimed that the Luna rocket landed." Do
17 you see that there?
18 A. Yes. Yes, I do.
19 MR. SACHDEVA: Now, if I could ask that we go back to the map that
20 was just admitted into evidence with the markings, please.
21 Mr. President, I note the time, and I suspect that I'm over the
22 half an hour allocated.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, you are.
24 MR. SACHDEVA: I would ask, with your leave, if I could continue
25 for a further five to six minutes.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
2 MR. SACHDEVA:
3 Q. Now, Witness, this is the map that you marked earlier on. And you
4 see the circle around Hrasnica which you marked and also the dot with the
5 S where you -- where you stated the bomb landed. Do you see that there?
6 A. Yes. Yes, I do.
7 Q. Now, in the document we just saw, it said, if you recall, that a
8 250-kilogram aerial bomb was launched at the centre of Hrasnica. With
9 your knowledge of Hrasnica, would the location where the -- the bomb
10 landed, would that, to your knowledge, be the centre of Hrasnica?
11 A. Precisely so.
12 Q. And at that location, were there any military barracks or other
14 A. The only thing that was located in the centre of Hrasnica was the
15 police station, the police administration. That was close to the centre.
16 Q. Do I take it by that answer then that there were no military
17 barracks or installations?
18 A. To the best of my knowledge, in that area, there were no military
20 MR. SACHDEVA: Okay. Now I want to bring up another document, and
21 that is 65 ter --
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me, Mr. Prosecutor. Could you please ask
23 the witness what is the approximate distance that -- from the launching
24 point to the centre of explosion of this modified air bomb? How far did
25 it actually go?
1 MR. SACHDEVA: Absolutely, Your Honour.
2 Q. Witness 57, I would like you to tell the Court the approximate
3 distance from where the bottom was launched to the place where it
4 exploded, if you can tell the Court that.
5 A. Between three and a half and four kilometres, approximately.
6 MR. SACHDEVA: Anything further, Your Honour?
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: No, that's it. Thank you.
8 MR. SACHDEVA: If I could now ask for 65 ter 02284 to be brought
10 Q. Witness, do you see a document on your screen on the left-hand
11 side, and it's from the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the 1st Corps
12 Command. Do you see that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And it's addressed to the UNPROFOR Sector Sarajevo, Major General
15 Gobillard. Do you see that there as well on the right-hand side?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. In the meat of the document, it says that the -- the aggressor
18 violated the truce and fired, and I am paraphrasing, but fired 15 shells
19 on the centre of Hrasnica from their positions and also used an aerial
20 bomb with rocket motors, which was launched from a vehicle. Do you see
21 that there?
22 A. Yes. Yes, I do.
23 Q. Does this description of what appeared to happened in Hrasnica on
24 the 7th of April accord with your memory and your knowledge?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I tender this document into
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As P541, Your Honours.
5 MR. SACHDEVA:
6 Q. Now, Witness 57, in my last remaining five minutes, I'm going to
7 show you some documents, and I just want you to comment on the -- the
8 authenticity and the validity of these documents.
9 The first one is 65 ter 787B. Witness, on the right-hand side,
10 you will see a document in your language. Can you confirm to the Court
11 that this is -- I ask that this is not broadcast, please.
12 Is this your official report that you drafted on -- with respect
13 to the incident on the 7th of April, 1995? And perhaps we could go to the
14 second page and you can confirm your signature.
15 A. Yes. This is a report that I drew up after the on-site
17 MR. SACHDEVA: I ask that this be admitted into evidence under
18 seal, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's admitted.
20 Ms. Isailovic.
21 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Just one point of clarification, which page of the 65 ter
23 document? It will be useful for everyone. Are we talking about -- I have
24 it on a my list. It's ERN which ends in -- with 71, on my list. The 65
25 ter document contains several pages. Could we perhaps spell this out, and
1 could we please be told which are documents which will -- which part of
2 the document will actually be tendered.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Sachdeva. What are the precise pages?
4 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, it's precisely because of the need
5 not to read out the pages in Court that we extracted the relevant pages;
6 in other words, his report from the 65 ter exhibit, which was 787, which
7 is a composite file, but I extracted the relevant pages for the witness,
8 in other words, his report and other reports. So it is part of the
9 composite Exhibit 787, but it's now been given the 65 ter number 787D,
10 which just refers to these two pages for the moment, for this document.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: So it would be just those two pages.
12 MR. SACHDEVA: For the moment these two pages, yes.
13 MR. SACHDEVA: Sorry, B. B.
14 Mr. President, what -- because these files, as we have experience
15 before, are 30, 40 pages long and some of them include medical records, we
16 had in the past just indicated to the Court officer the particular pages
17 when we showed the witness. But what we have done in advance is we have
18 actually extracted the particular pages and made them separate exhibits
19 for the benefit of the court registrar. So that is why it is just these
20 two pages, but they are taken from this composite Exhibit 787, which
21 notice has been given to the Defence.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We admit those two pages.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, those two pages become P542.
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Prosecutor, could you just please assist me
1 with what was the date of the witness's report?
2 MR. SACHDEVA: That would be the 7th of April, 1995, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
4 MR. SACHDEVA: And may I ask that this be admitted under seal, if
5 it hasn't been done already.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We admit it under seal.
7 MR. SACHDEVA: And for the benefit of my learned friend, it's
8 pages 5 and 6 of the composite exhibit.
9 The next exhibit -- 65 ter I would like to bring up is 787D, and
10 I understand that these were pages 7 and 8 of the original, for the
11 benefit of the Defence.
12 Q. Witness, you see a document on the right-hand side of your screen?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. And what is that document?
15 A. This is a report on the landing of this projectile, and it
16 contains certain elements of the on-site investigation.
17 Q. And to your knowledge, is this an official report from the
18 Ministry of the Interior?
19 A. Can you please scroll it up so that I can see the top of the page?
20 Yes. It's a criminal investigation and forensic report compiled by the
21 Ministry of the Interior, although this copy is not exactly legible and I
22 can't see it very well.
23 Q. But, nevertheless, you do confirm to the Court that this is an
24 official report from the Ministry of the Interior?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I ask that this document be admitted
2 into evidence, and apologies to learned counsel, but the pages from the
3 composite exhibit for her benefit are 46 and 47.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We admit them.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes P543.
6 MR. SACHDEVA:
7 Q. And, lastly, Witness, I'm going to show you a photograph.
8 MR. SACHDEVA: If 65 ter 03115 could be brought up.
9 Q. Witness, do you see a photograph on your screen?
10 A. Yes. I see the photograph.
11 Q. And do you recognise the place?
12 A. Yes. I recognise the place.
13 Q. And what is the place?
14 A. That's the centre of Hrasnica, and this is where the modified air
15 bomb landed, the location where it landed.
16 Q. Can you pinpoint exactly where the bomb landed from this
18 A. This circle signifies what used to be a rather large, old Bosnian
19 house, twice as large as this one, and the projectile exploded on the roof
20 of the house. The house was completely destroyed, and I can see now that
21 the owner has built a completely new house on that location.
22 Q. And is there a school in this photograph?
23 A. This is the elementary school in Hrasnica.
24 Q. Could you just put an S beside that.
25 A. [Marks]
1 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I tender that into evidence.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.
3 THE REGISTRAR: As P544, Your Honours.
4 MR. SACHDEVA: And that is the examination-in-chief.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
6 Ms. Isailovic to cross-examine.
7 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Cross-examination by Ms. Isailovic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. My name is Branislava
10 Isailovic. I am a lawyer and member of the Paris Bar Association. I am
11 representing General Dragomir Milosevic before this Court.
12 I'm going to ask you a few questions about the statement which you
13 have addressed with the Prosecution, and also I shall ask you some
14 questions about what you have said today.
15 I will ask to you pay attention to all of this, because please be
16 careful to speak into the microphone properly and make sure that your
17 microphone is not on when I speak. I'm sure it will be all right, and we
18 shall manage it together.
19 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Could I please have the same
20 photograph up on the screen, the same photograph which the Prosecution has
21 just shown us. This photograph was not on my list, but I believe it will
22 prove very useful. I have no number for this photograph because it was
23 not on the list which was provided to the Defence, so I would like a
24 number from my learned colleague, please.
25 MR. SACHDEVA: May I respond to learned counsel.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just provide the number.
2 MR. SACHDEVA: Oh, the number, right. 03115.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
4 MR. SACHDEVA: I would just add for the record that --
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: You did provide it.
6 MR. SACHDEVA: What I provided was the DVD, which has a 360 degree
7 panoramic video, and from there we take the stills. And, of course, the
8 stills are taken once the witness has seen 360 degree video in proofing.
9 That was on the list from last week.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Let us proceed. We have the number.
11 Can that be brought up, Mr. Court Deputy.
12 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.
13 Q. Witness, I would like you to look at this photograph again. This
14 is an aerial view. We can see a lot of new rooftops. Are these houses
15 which were built after the war?
16 A. The big house that had been destroyed was built after the war,
17 and all these houses were renovated after the war with humanitarian aid.
18 Q. Witness, you said that there was a lot of material damage caused
19 by the war and particularly in Hrasnica. I presume that at the time this
20 incident occurred on the 7th of April, there weren't very many houses in
21 which you could live in at the time, is that right, in Hrasnica?
22 A. What do you mean there were many uninhabitable houses?
23 Q. I shall explain this to you. You mentioned that there was a lot
24 of material damage caused by the war. This incident occurred on the 7th
25 of April, 1995; therefore, a long while after the beginning of the war,
1 the beginning of the conflict, of the armed conflict. So this is my
2 question to you: At this particular point in time, the damage caused by
3 these military operations, did this render these houses uninhabitable?
4 A. Yes. There were such houses, but most of these houses were unsafe
5 to live in and, mostly, they were in the vicinity of confrontation lines;
6 whereas, the other houses in Hrasnica, Butmir, and other settlements that
7 were damaged as a result of war were the places where people did live,
8 because they had no other place to live.
9 Q. Witness, you were in Hrasnica all this time, weren't you, working
10 as a policemen?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. So you were an eye-witness to everything that happened in
13 Hrasnica? What I have in mind are these military -- this military
15 A. Yes, that's correct.
16 Q. This military activity was quite intense in Hrasnica, wasn't it?
17 A. That's correct; in all three areas, Butmir, Sokolovic, and
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.
20 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I would ask that counsel specify
21 when she talks about Hrasnica and other locations, whether she means the
22 confrontation lines or the centre of town, because Hrasnica is a large
23 area. I think the witness needs to be told exactly whereabouts combat was
24 taking place -- where it is said that combat is taking place.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, it's for her to determine how she is
1 conducting her cross-examination, and I'm sure she is aware of the size of
2 Hrasnica; and if there is any point that you consider requires
3 clarification, you may do so in re-examination.
4 But please take that into account, Ms. Isailovic.
5 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Witness, a while ago you also mentioned the Igman Road; do you
7 remember this?
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 Q. This road, Igman Road, how far was it from this house that we see
10 on this photograph? What I mean is where this house which was destroyed
11 on the 7th of April was located.
12 A. The house is approximately 200 metres at the elevation, or rather,
13 300 to 400 metres above the settlement is where the road runs.
14 Q. I'm not quite sure if I what I heard is right, because I listen to
15 you in B/C/S. I shall repeat my question. Perhaps you could listen
17 We are going to talk about distance as the crow flies. What
18 distance is there between this large house we see on the photograph where
19 the former house was located, the one that was destroyed on the 7th of
21 Just a minute, please, before answering my question.
22 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't see the word "as the crow
23 flies" in the transcript.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's there in English.
25 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm sorry. I was looking at
1 another line.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, the witness is to answer the question. I'm
3 not sure if he is aware of that.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you please show me the first map
5 of Hrasnica where I put my marks and where the road is also marked, and it
6 will be much clearer for you then.
7 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. This is a good
8 idea. I was going to show it to the witness afterwards, but we shall
9 start off with this. Let's look at the map again, please. This is
10 exhibit number P540, and this is the photograph which is a marked
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Can you see the map properly? Is it big enough?
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a moment, please.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, it's all right.
17 Can I show --
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a moment, please.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please continue.
21 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
22 I just asked -- put the question to the witness, and he answered
23 by saying yes. I asked him if he could see it on the map properly.
24 I would also like the witness to mark this map, and if my learned
25 colleague has no objections, I would like to use a different coloured pen,
1 a blue pen.
2 Q. Could you draw a line which would be the -- the line from the
3 place of impact and the Igman Road -- or, please could you tell us where
4 the bus-stop was on this map and draw a line along that, please.
5 A. Are you talking about the public transportation stop in Hrasnica?
6 Which bus-stop are you referring to?
7 Q. I shall explain this to you. You properly remember that in your
8 statement, you mentioned an incident that was then withdrawn and was no
9 longer on the list of incidents quoted by the Prosecution. This was in
10 October 1994. There was an incident that took place close to the
11 bus-stop. There was a place where the buses stopped during the war. Is
12 that right?
13 A. Yes, that's correct.
14 Q. I would now ask you to take this blue pen and indicate this on the
15 map. This would be a section on the Igman Road.
16 A. It's a place called Osmice. The buses drove up to that point.
17 And later on they would move into the woods to seek cover and avoid being
18 fired at, and the forest provided this kind of protection.
19 Q. Now, Witness, I would like you to -- to put the letter SB next to
20 the circle, please, and this stands for "bus-stop."
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. Now, Witness, could you please draw a straight line between the
23 bus-stop and the place of impact indicated on this photograph, i.e., this
24 house and the date of 7th of April, 1995.
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. Now, Witness, could you please tell me what the distance is?
2 A. If we assume that between Sokolovic, which I will mark with 1, and
3 the point of entry to Hrasnica is two kilometres, if I take this line, as
4 the crow flies, then it would be around one kilometre to Igman. But this
5 is already Mount Igman and where the forests begin.
6 Q. Now, Witness, you have drawn this line, according to what you
7 remember. Could you tell me which road the soldiers of the ABiH used when
8 they came out of the tunnel at [indiscernible] and took the Igman Road in
9 the direction of this bus-stop?
10 A. The exits from the tunnel usually took place during night, because
11 in day-time there were no conditions for that; in other words, soldiers
12 moved during night. They had to walk because was no fuel or vehicles for
13 them. They walked in small shall groups through Butmir, Sokolovic,
14 bridge, Hrasnica, and they exited at Igman and proceeded to their assembly
15 point. So these were very small groups, between two and five people.
16 There were no convoys because, as I said, we didn't have any vehicles or
18 Q. Witness, could you please mark this with a dotted line. Could you
19 indicate approximately which road was used by these soldiers to reach
20 Mount Igman?
21 A. You mean from the exit to the tunnel?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. This is the bridge, so some of them moved to Glavogodna. They
24 took this road if there was no shooting. However, since there was random
25 shooting during night, they would normally move and pass through this part
1 of Hrasnica towards Tocilo, which is a ravine. But most movement took
2 place during night because it was very dangerous to move during day-time.
3 And the road between Glavogodna and Igman, this is the route that they
5 Q. If I have understood you correctly, Witness, there were two
6 alternative routes to reach Mount Igman, which we can see on this
7 photograph, on this map, because we see two lines here, don't we?
8 A. That is precisely so. There were two lines of movement.
9 Whichever was safer, there was no shooting, then they would use that one.
10 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I turn to the clock,
11 and I'd like to put this question to you: I would like this photograph to
12 be annotated and I would still like to use it. Do you think it's a good
13 time to stop?
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is it? Are you seeking to have it
15 admitted? You would like to have it annotated?
16 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I just stopped
17 to ask this question about the break, because I would like to continue
18 using this map.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. You must also attend to the time that is
20 left for your cross-examination. The Prosecutor used 52 minutes, and the
21 Chamber will give you one hour. Originally, you were allocated 45 minutes
22 and you have used 24 minutes so far.
23 We'll take the break now.
24 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please continue.
2 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. Witness, please, we'll continue working on this map in front of
4 us. In your statements, you also mentioned the general headquarters
5 located in the area covered by your police station. Could you please mark
6 on this map where these headquarters would be --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: It's not the
8 headquarters, but it's the general area covered by your police station?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]...
11 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Yes. I'm talking about -- no, the headquarters of the ABiH army
13 that were located in this area, in the area covered by your police
15 A. You mean the precise location of the headquarters? As far as I
16 know, the command headquarters was a forward command post in the Igman
17 area. The administrative part was in Sokolovic Kolonija.
18 Q. Witness, could you please mark the place where this building was
19 located? I guess it must have been a building.
20 A. This was a row of houses adjoining each other; and as it is very
21 close to the house I lived in, I will try to find it and mark it. I can
22 only say that this was administrative part. As far as I knew, the command
23 was in a forward command post at Igman because they were safer there, and
24 they had better overview of the situation there.
25 Q. Well, it's not very visible what you have just annotated. So
1 could you please place a cross, and write an S next to it.
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. S for the B/C/S word "headquarters."
4 Now, Witness, you -- during the war, you lived and worked --
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.
6 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, perhaps it could be clarified, but
7 the witness has said on page 32, line 23, that the command headquarters
8 was a forward command post in the Igman area. And I note that the S that
9 he has just marked is in Sokolovic Kolonija which he refers to as the
10 administrative part. So to -- to categorise that as the headquarters is
11 possibly confusing, in my submission.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, would you like to explain that?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's like this: I'll tell you
14 something very important. It's an important location on the map. It's
15 called Golo Brdo, and it was held by the VRS. From that point had you a
16 perfect view of all of the area under the BH army control; the free
17 territory, Hrasnica, Butmir and Sokolovic. So that any movement, any
18 grouping or military movement would immediately be observed and fired
20 For this reason, the command was at a forward command post in the
21 Igman area as far as I know. People said it was at Kablar, which is
22 where the main command was in charge of the operations, and that's where
23 the commander was located. This place is Golo Brdo held by the VRS, and
24 they had a perfect view. They could see any movement of pedestrians,
25 civilians, vehicles, anything that moved.
1 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Witness, you have just talked about the excellent visibility from
3 Golo Brdo, and I will ask another question because obviously you are well
4 aware of the military situation at the time.
5 Could you show me -- tell me something about Ilidza. Is Ilidza a
6 plain or is it a slope?
7 A. It's like this: The municipality of Ilidza, with the exception of
8 part of Mount Igman which is up to 1.100 metres above sea level,
9 everything else was flat. It was a plain. So that looking from Gavrica
10 Brdo and Igman, you could see this whole flat area. You had a perfect
11 view. You could see any movement any where in that area.
12 Q. Well, to be more specific, you do agree that we're talking about
13 part of Ilidza that was held by the army of Republika Srpska, and this
14 area is a plain, is flat?
15 A. No, no. Part of Igman, Golo Brdo, a dominant elevation above the
16 Ilidza plain; also Gavrica Brdo, which was in the territory of the VRS
17 above the sports airfield. The place is called Kotorac. You could see
18 the whole area perfectly. You had a perfect view of the whole area.
19 Q. So you're saying that Republika Srpska held the plain where the
20 Ilidza settlement was located as well as part of Mount Igman, notably
21 Debelo Brdo and Gavrica Brdo?
22 A. Golo Brdo and Gavrica Brdo above Kotrica. It was all in Ilidza
24 Q. Witness, can we agree to say that from the part of Igman
25 controlled by the ABiH army, the Ilidza plain was also controlled from
1 that part where the ABiH army was located?
2 A. Correct, correct. Both sides had a good view of the Ilidza field,
3 the flat area where there were areas under the control of both of the VRS
4 and the BH army.
5 Q. Witness, please look at the map. You marked a place from which
6 allegedly this air bomb was launched. So this place, is it located in the
7 flat part of Ilidza?
8 A. Correct. It's in the area of Bacina, in the flat part of Ilidza.
9 You can see it on the map where I marked it. This was under the control
10 of the VRS.
11 Q. Now, Witness, do you know anything about the 4th Brigade that
12 was -- the 4th Brigade of the ABiH army that was located in this area?
13 A. Yes. This is the area where it was active, the free part of
14 Ilidza. It held the lines in that area and fired from there. When I say
15 "fired," what I'm referring to is the defence of this territory.
16 Q. Do you remember the name of the person who commended this 4th
17 Brigade at the time when this incident occurred on April 1995?
18 A. Yes. It was the commander of the 104th Brigade, Emir Redzovic.
19 Q. Do you possibly remember where his HQ was located?
20 A. All I can say is that in 1995 I saw him only very rarely, because
21 in the area of Igman, Bijelasnica, and Trnovo municipality there was
22 fighting going on; and to the best of my knowledge, they spent most of
23 their time there. In 1995, I think I may have seen him only once or twice
24 and then only in passing.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.
1 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, can I just get a clarification about
2 the brigade because the question refers to the 4th Brigade and the answer
3 of the witness refers to the 104th Brigade. Just if that could be
4 clarified. In the transcript, at least, it reads the 4th and the 104th
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: What are we talking about? The 4th or the 104th
7 Brigade, Witness?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was called the 104th, but then it
9 was renamed. It was the 104th Brigade belonging to the 1st Corps of the
10 army of BH.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
12 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. According to your recollection, Witness, this brigade included
14 units that were subordinated to it?
15 A. Yes. It consisted of battalions, three battalions.
16 Q. The -- I guess that these battalions were made of units, right?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. Could we see that all these people who made up the companies,
19 battalions included in this brigade were made up of many soldiers. There
20 were many soldiers that made up these units?
21 A. These were military-able local members of the population who made
22 up these units.
23 Q. I would like now to go back to the Famos factory. You marked it
24 on this map, and I would like to know whether if you put Famos in the
25 middle on the, one side of Famos you would have Hrasnica, and on the other
1 side you would have villages, including Vojkovici where many Serbs would
2 live. Is that it?
3 A. Yes, the village of Vojkovici with the hamlets of Grlica and
4 others. The Famos factory ended where the village of Vojkovici began and
5 then Hrasnica began after that.
6 Q. Witness, could you please, just like you marked Hrasnica, could
7 you please encircle in blue Grlica and Vojkovici and all these hamlets
8 located next to the Famos factory?
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. And could you please a V, letter V, next to the circle or in the
11 middle of the circle.
12 A. Yes, here it is.
13 Q. So you're familiar with this area. According to you, were there
14 many civilians who lived in these Serbian villages?
15 A. Yes. Before the war, I often road my bicycle through the area. I
16 would ride round the airport, Ilidza, to the source of the river Bosna,
17 and the majority population was Serbian. There were little hamlets there
18 inhabited mostly by Serbs. How many were there during the war, I really
19 don't know.
20 Q. But my question was not on the ethnic makeup of the village. I
21 wanted to know whether the people living there were mainly civilians.
22 A. Civilians. But from what I learned after the war, the local
23 population made up part of the armed forces of the VRS.
24 Q. Just like the residents of Hrasnica were part of the ABiH army.
25 It's the same thing.
1 A. Correct, yes.
2 Q. Now, Witness, with the Prosecutor, you talked at length about the
3 this incident of April 7th, 1995; and in both of your statements, a lot of
4 the passages are on this incident. Do you remember that on that day there
5 were United Nations Military Observers in Hrasnica?
6 A. Yes. I remember that day well. The military observers had a
7 house where they were, and this was in Hrasnica.
8 Q. Witness, on the morning of this incident, do you remember having
9 seen a number of these UNMOs at the place of impact?
10 A. Before or after? Before the impact or after the impact?
11 Q. After.
12 A. After the impact, many UNPROFOR vehicles arrived with military
13 observers, and the observers who were in our area participated in the
14 on-site investigation together with us.
15 Q. Witness, do you remember how much longer after the explosion you
16 left the police station?
17 A. After the explosion, when we all fell from our seats, it was a
18 very strong, dull detonation. It took us a few minutes to pull ourselves
19 together and to have a briefing to decide who was to do what. I was the
20 first to go on site to see what had happened. There was thick smoke and
21 dust. In the ensuing chaos, we first tried to see whether there were any
22 victims who needed assistance. When the dust subsided, there were two
23 wounded people under the rubble who we managed to pull out, and I secured
24 the site to make sure that nobody could enter it, no civilians; and then I
25 informed all the proper authorities and also the military observers.
1 I said as soon as a team is put together, the conditions are
2 created, we will go and carry out an on-site investigation. From
3 experience, we knew that after an incident of this kind, there would be
4 additional shelling which often caused even greater casualties than the
5 original impact. So we tried simply to conserve the site and put together
6 a team, but we would not allow anyone to approach; UNPROFOR or anyone
7 else. However, the site was conserved until the team could arrive there
8 and carry out the investigation.
9 Q. Witness, after getting on the site of impact, do you remember
10 finding the victim, Mrs. Ziba Custovic? Do you remember that?
11 A. Yes. We found Mrs. Custovic. Beside this house there was a
12 smaller house, and the house had all about vanished. We found her dead,
13 and there was enormous damage to her skull. She was taken to the morgue.
15 Q. Do you remember how the victim was dressed possibly?
16 A. She was a refugee, and she was wearing pantaloons of the kind worn
17 by Muslim women; nothing unusual. We found her next to the cooker.
18 Q. Do you remember having found another victim on site, another
19 victim that would be dressed in camouflage pants?
20 A. I can't recall precisely, but let me tell you: Soldiers, when you
21 were off duty, were at home, and they would put on whatever they had. The
22 war went on for three or four years, and people were short of clothes.
23 You wore whatever you had. He might have had them on, but he was at home.
24 He wasn't on duty. He was sitting there with his mother. We found him
25 under the rubble. Fortunately, they survived. We could hardly believe
1 that they had survived. Their injuries were much milder than we excepted.
2 Q. To be specific, you're talking about several people when you're
3 explaining to us that this might have been a soldier that was just at
4 home, or do you remember having seen with your own eyes a victim on site
5 dressed in camouflage pants? So were you talking generally, or were you
6 talking about what you saw that day?
7 A. This young man and his mother, when we pulled them out under the
8 rubble of the house, were taken to hospital. I can't remember whether he
9 was wearing camouflage pants; but if you think he was, maybe. It's 12
10 years ago. At the time he was at home with his mother. It was in the
11 morning. He was taken to hospital and given first aid.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, you have another seven, eight
14 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this last topic is
15 extremely important because in light of other evidence I believe that we
16 now have an opportunity to get some information on other evidence that are
17 in this case.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: What are you seeking?
19 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I cannot control the
20 answers given, and I can't really --
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: You must know, as every lawyer does in the
22 Tribunal, how much time you're going to take. How much more time do you
24 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, I can only give you a rough
25 estimate. I think I believe I need about 15 more minutes.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, yes.
2 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Ms. Isailovic, could you please ask
3 the witness to tell us whether in this house the victim was found dead or
4 not, and whether the young man was in the same house. I really don't
6 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Witness, I hope you have heard Judge Mindua's question, so could
8 you please tell us, and tell us also if you're talking about the same
10 A. The victim -- no. Mrs. Custovic who died was in a small house
11 next door, and that is where she was killed. In this big house that
12 received the impact of the air bomb was where the mother and son were
13 wounded. So they were in the house and they were found under the rubble.
14 The woman living next door was the one who got killed. It was about five
15 metres from the big house, towards north or north-west, so five metres
16 from the house that received the main impact and she was found dead.
17 Q. To be very specific, do you remember having -- having seen the
18 person you found that was in the camouflage pant, did you find him under
19 the debris, not moving?
20 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.
22 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, the witness has not confirmed that
23 he found the person with camouflage pants on. In fact, if I recall his
24 answer, he was equivocal in that regard.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: That is also our recollection, Ms. Isailovic.
2 The witness did not confirm that, so reformulate the question.
3 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Precisely, Your Honour. This was
4 my last question because he wasn't very clear, so I would like him to
5 confirm or to answer negatively.
6 Q. Could you confirm that at the time you went to the location,
7 following the explosion, you found people wearing uniform, camouflage
8 uniforms coming out of the rubble, people who weren't moving?
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Sachdeva.
10 MR. SACHDEVA: Well, Mr. President, my submission is that the
11 witness has already answered the question, and the answer was that he
12 could not remember.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let us hear it again.
14 What's your answer to the question?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer is as follows: This young
16 man and his mother, according to the statements that I took, were asleep
17 in the house. This young man was pulled out, and I really cannot remember
18 whether he had a camouflage uniform on. It was a huge commotion and
19 destruction; and under such stress, I was unable to recall and record all
20 the -- all the details. He was an asleep with his mother in the house
21 when the projectile hit. Whether he had camouflage pants or whatever, I
22 honestly cannot remember.
23 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. But according to you, Witness, as you were a policeman in charge
25 of the investigation, there was only one deadly victim who was wearing
1 flouncy trousers, which are usually worn by Muslim women; isn't that
3 A. Yes, Muslim women in pantaloons.
4 Q. Thank you, Witness. Just for the sake of efficiency. Do you
5 remember having found on that location right after the explosion the
6 commander of the 104th Brigade you mentioned a while ago?
7 A. I didn't see him on that occasion. I know that the commander had
8 come just minutes before the on-site investigation but didn't attend. He
9 received information about what had taken place. He came to the scene as
10 soon as he heard about it, but I know that he did not attend the on-site
12 Q. Witness, the investigation was conducted on the day of the
13 explosion, wasn't it?
14 A. Yes, that's true.
15 Q. But in the -- it was in the afternoon, around 3.00?
16 A. Yes, that's correct.
17 Q. As you remember the people who were present as -- since you
18 mentioned them in your report, do you remember seeing UNMO observers
20 THE INTERPRETER: Could you kindly repeat your question, please,
21 Ms. Isailovic, please.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they were there. It took
23 sometime for a team, a KDZ team, to arrive from Sarajevo. They had to go
24 through the tunnel, and the team included a judge as well. As soon as the
25 team was complete, we visited the scene and sealed it off so no one was
1 allowed access to it. Therefore, it took some time for the team to arrive
2 from Sarajevo through the tunnel.
3 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. So you do confirm that in the course of this investigation, in the
5 presence of the investigating judge and people from Sarajevo, the
6 investigation started at about 3.00. A Norwegian officer and a British
7 officer, who you mention your report, UNMO observers, were present at the
9 A. That is exactly what happened.
10 Q. Witness, do you remember what happened on the next day?
11 Investigations were all conducted on the next day -- also conduct the on
12 the next day. Do you remember this?
13 A. As far as I know, we completed the investigation on the same day,
14 and I compiled my report on the same day as well. Whether anyone
15 conducted any additional investigation, I don't know. But I do know that
16 we finalised the investigation of the scene by 4.00. Whether anyone else
17 did something additional, I don't know.
18 Q. And a while ago you looked at P542 with the Prosecution, but I'd
19 just like to refresh your memory. This was a report prepared by the
20 ballistics experts who analysed what was left of the bomb that had fallen.
21 Do you remember this?
22 A. Yes. Ballistics experts did their job.
23 Q. Witness, do you remember -- because after all you did sign this
24 report. Do you remember what you took away for analysis was taken away on
25 the day the investigation was conducted?
1 A. As far as I can recollect, all the pieces were recovered from the
2 scene, and they were taken for expert analysis. I received a report from
3 ballistics experts, and I attached it to my report.
4 Q. Witness, do you remember whether on that day there were
5 journalists present on the 7th of April, 1995?
6 A. Yes. There were reporters, and there was a big crowd, as far as I
7 was, in the state I was, able to notice, and with all the work that I had
8 to do. But I did notice that there were reporters. It was clearly seen
9 that something major had happened in Hrasnica, and I did notice a few
10 reporter vehicles.
11 Q. Witness, do you perhaps remember what these UNMO observers were
12 doing in this location whom you mention in your report, which is dated the
13 7th of April, 1995?
14 A. You mean the ones who were with us during the investigation?
15 Yes. They did take an active part in the investigation. Whatever we did,
16 they did, too. And we endeavoured to recover the pieces together from the
17 scene and to do the whole investigation together. We didn't do anything
18 separately. They were all the time beside us, and we tried to be
19 cooperative as much as we could and provide all the material evidence for
20 their inspection that we found on the spot.
21 Q. As far as eye-witnesses are concerned; namely, those people who
22 saw the projectile in question, you remember the people working in the
23 fields in Sokolovic Kolonija, don't you?
24 A. Yes. Many people had seen this projectile flying over. It was
25 kind of miraculous. People talked extensively about it, but, yes, a lot
1 of people saw it.
2 Q. Witness, you did not include what these eye-witnesses had to say
3 in your report, did you?
4 A. Well, I said that some people had seen it. I should have gathered
5 them all together and took their individual statements; however, in war
6 conditions, it is a very difficult task to do. You don't want to expose
7 people to danger. I think what we presented was quite sufficient and is
8 not questionable as regards the origin of fire or the projectile coming
10 Q. Did you yourself draw these conclusions; namely, on the direction
11 of fire, where this air bomb was fired from?
12 A. I mentioned the military scouts who saw precisely where this
13 vehicle was and where something in the area of Bacevo was going on. Later
14 when they descended, they explained what was happening there. As a
15 civilian police inspector, I didn't have an authority to take statements
16 from soldiers. It is up to the military security service and, therefore,
17 I couldn't confirm or deny that because I couldn't take their statement.
18 But I said that there were eye-witnesses, and many soldiers did see where
19 the projectile came from because it flew over the field in this particular
20 area. I'm talking about the modified air bomb.
21 Q. Witness, a long the same lines; namely, all these rumours that
22 were circulating, did you get to understand whether the soldiers tried to
23 neutralise the position from which this was fired from?
24 A. I learned later that a scout had sent a report to an unknown
25 location at Igman where artillery weapons were, and that the commander of
1 this artillery unit had asked permission to shoot warning shell, but the
2 commander put a strict ban and prohibited any activity. Therefore, they
3 gave up the idea and there was no action taken, and then this projectile
4 was launched and that's the whole story. And this is what I learned only
5 later, a couple of days afterwards. I say, again, I didn't have the right
6 to question or interrogate soldiers. I was a civilian policeman.
7 Q. Witness, in your report, you draw a conclusion on the origin of
8 fire, and you base this on eye-witness statements, don't you?
9 A. Yes, that's right.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Last question now, Ms. Isailovic.
11 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can I let the witness
12 answer, because he had just started answering my one-but-last question.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Please provide the answer.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I please have the last question
15 repeated to me. Everything is going so fast and I cannot go back.
16 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. My penultimate question was the following: In the conclusion, you
18 draw on the origin of fire. Did you base this on eye-witness statements?
19 You started by answering and by saying, "Yes, that's right," then you were
20 interrupted. Could you please provide the rest of your answer.
21 A. Yes, that's right, based on the statement and information we
22 received in the course of the day before we conducted the on-site
23 investigation. And based on these stories and reports, we realised that
24 this projectile was probably fired from the area that we received
25 unconfirmed reports of and also according to the witnesses who saw the
1 projectile flying over.
2 Q. And this is my last question. These eye-witnesses saw black
3 smoke; is that right?
4 A. Yes. This flying object was moving relatively slowly, let's say
5 ten to 15 second. It produced a strange noise, and it left a black trail
6 behind it. The altitude of flight was between 200 and 250 metres.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva to re-examine.
8 Sorry. Ms. Isailovic.
9 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would just like to
10 ask this map to be tendered into evidence, which has been annotated with a
11 blue pen.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We admit it.
13 THE REGISTRAR: As D165, Your Honours.
14 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Q. Thank you, Witness.
16 Questioned by the Court:
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Witness, I have a few questions for you.
18 My first question to you relates to the information we have
19 received during your testimony of fire and shelling from the ABiH; and if
20 I have understood some of the evidence correctly, it is alleged that the
21 launching of the modified air bomb from the VRS-held territory was fired
22 in response to the fire coming from the ABiH.
23 Now, my question is this: Can you, by pointing to the map,
24 identify the places where the ABiH was firing from? And to be more
25 precise, my question is: Was there any firing coming out of Hrasnica in
1 the vicinity of the place where the modified air bomb landed?
2 A. Your Honour, I never said that before that the army was involved
3 in any activity or artillery firing against the VRS territory -- held
4 territory. In my testimony today, I said that a scout saw something
5 happening in the area of Bacevo, that he notified the commander of an
6 artillery unit who then advised the 104th Brigade commander. He requested
7 a -- a warning fire shell to be fired, but his request was not granted.
8 There was no activity prior to that. It was a very quiet, surprisingly
9 quiet morning. That was a rare occurrence during the war, so there were
10 no operations carried out by the BH army.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: That is your testimony as to the day on the 6th or
12 7th of April when the bomb landed. What about the previous days? Had
13 there been any firing or shelling launched from ABiH-held territory in the
14 previous days? And my question, of course, relates to the information we
15 had in one of the exhibits, in which the accused alleges that he wanted to
16 respond to the days of fire that had come out of the ABiH territory. And
17 my question again is the same: If you can remember, are you then able to
18 tell us where the firing and the shelling came from, from the ABiH side?
19 Which areas?
20 A. At the time there were combat operations in the area of Igman,
21 Bijelasnica, and the Trnovo battlefield. In our area, there was a ban on
22 the use of artillery. I cannot remember exactly whether this settlement
23 under the control of the VRS were targeted. I cannot remember that.
24 But I do know that in these combat operations at Igman,
25 Bijelasnica, and Trnovo, whenever part of the territory were lost by the
1 VRS, it was the civilians who paid the price for that in these three
2 neighbourhood, Butmir and the others. So all the subsequent losses of
3 territories were paid for by the civilians in terms of shelling, of these
4 three neighbourhoods.
5 I really cannot remember if the BH army had been active. As far
6 as I can tell, I didn't have a chance to hear any shooting from either
7 side. Please, I think you will understand that I was unable to cover the
8 whole territory 24 hours a day; but in the days preceding this incident,
9 the -- these days were quiet. And all the operations conducted in the
10 area were in Igman, Bijelasnica, and Trnovo, exclusively.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. I understand you perfectly well,
12 Witness. I want to be sure that I have understood you correctly in saying
13 that in your testimony, there was no combat operation coming out of the
14 Hrasnica area or, more precisely, coming out of the red circle you have
15 identified on the map. Is that correct? Please answer me briefly, yes or
17 A. [No audible response]
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: My next question relates to the location of the
19 ABiH command headquarters. You mentioned in your testimony that this --
20 that as far as you had heard, the command headquarters were located in a
21 place called Kablar. Are you able to show us on the map where that was,
22 with a pen?
23 A. It's a little bit in the bottom part of the map here. The name of
24 the place is Kablarovo.
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Witness, thank you. I am being -- my
1 attention is being drawn to the fact that you responded to my question by
2 nodding, without saying anything. I repeat my question. Can you help us
3 in identifying at least, if it's on the map, then by some mark; or if it
4 is not on the map, then by indicating with an arrow in which direction
5 Kablar was.
6 A. [Marks]
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: That is excellent. Thank you, Witness.
8 And my last question relates to your instructions to the UNMOs who
9 came to the site of explosion. You have told us that you secured the
10 area, but I wish to know if you gave any particular instructions to the
11 UNMOs regarding their attempt to conduct their own investigation.
12 A. Yes. When I informed the judge from the police station as well as
13 the CSB in the city about what had happened, I sought support from a team
14 in Sarajevo because it was an incident of larger proportions. I
15 personally went to see the UNMOs, and I told them that as soon as
16 conditions were in place, a team will visit the scene.
17 And I also warned them or drew their attention to the fact that it
18 would be better for them to remain in their headquarters for a while
19 because people were in panic and aggravated, because there a lot of
20 casualties and lot of shelling that all the neighbourhoods had been
21 exposed to. I asked them to keep a low precisely because people lost
22 patience with you and everything else. So many bad things had been
23 happening, so I asked them to stay put for a while; and as soon as
24 tensions simmered down, I said I would personally come to fetch them and
25 take them to the scene, which I did.
1 Quite simply I was afraid that something would happen that would
2 get out the control with the people -- with a local people, and this is
3 what I told them, in essence. I think they took my advice seriously and
4 they realised I was right because the reaction of the local community was
5 terrible, and I really wanted to prevent anything uncontrollable from
6 taking place.
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Did you order them to be locked up in a building?
8 A. No. All I know is that two policemen secured this building, but
9 they were not locked up. They just secured the building to prevent any
10 possible conflicts with the local populous.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Did you instruct the two soldiers to prevent the
12 UNMOs from leaving the house?
13 A. I simply asked them, in order to avoid any incident, I told them
14 it would be ill-advised for them to go out before the situation became
15 calmer because I was afraid for their safety, and all the station --
16 police station management agreed with me that would be the best approach.
17 Because there was -- we imposed a general ban on any movement inside this
18 area, civilians and everyone else, precisely for the purpose of preventing
19 any additional incidents or additional shelling.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: But why did you not just order them to go back to
21 their own headquarters if you did not want them to hang around the site of
23 A. Not that we didn't want their presence at the place of explosion.
24 They did visit the scene. They were worked together with us on the
25 investigation, but we were simply afraid and we feared about their safety.
1 Another UNPROFOR APCs arrived to the location in order to provide security
2 for the operation of the on-site investigation, because in those days
3 there were high tensions between the civilians and members of UNPROFOR and
4 members of UNMO mission.
5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. Mr. Witness, you're not answering my
6 question. My question was: Why did you not just order the UNMOs to
7 return to their own headquarters, rather than securing them in a
8 particular building for quite a period of time, I understand.
9 A. They were in the building where they lived, where they resided.
10 The observer mission resided in that building. There was no need for them
11 to leave because we would start our investigation in an hour or two, and
12 we didn't want to start it without them.
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: And for how long did you order them to remain in
14 their own house?
15 A. Well, it wasn't an order. It was an instruction, until the
16 investigation team arrived. They were not prohibited from doing anything;
17 but when the team arrived, it would go together, and there were also
18 UNPROFOR observers there in vehicles.
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Mr. Witness.
20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.
22 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Re-examination by Mr. Sachdeva:
24 Q. Witness, I have a few issues I want to raise in my re-examination.
25 Firstly, just following on from His Honour Judge Harhoff's
1 questions about UNPROFOR, I want you to clarify and confirm to the Court
2 that when the UNPROFOR were back in their residence, can you confirm that
3 they were at liberty to leave, if they wanted?
4 A. Yes, absolutely. After the on-site investigation, they moved
5 wherever they liked. They went to their base towards the town. After
6 that, they moved around freely, quite normally.
7 Q. Were you as a member of the police and your colleagues amenable to
8 UNPROFOR conducting an investigation into this incident?
9 A. I always insisted at any on-site investigation, and the military
10 observers can confirm this. I always invited them to come, and I felt
11 that their presence would validate my investigation. It was only when
12 they refused for security reasons to come to an on-site investigation that
13 they did not accompany me.
14 Q. Now, following on from the initial question His Honour Judge
15 Harhoff asked you about ABiH activity, combat activity, I would like you
16 to see again Prosecution Exhibit -- and I always forget the number, but I
17 think it's 225, if that could be brought up on the screen.
18 MR. SACHDEVA: And also just for the benefit of the Court, I'm
19 going to go back to the map as well.
20 Q. Witness, do you recall that I showed you this document in my
21 initial examination?
22 A. Yes. Yes, I've seen it.
23 Q. And, sorry, do you remember seeing it in my examination in the
25 A. Yes, yes.
1 Q. Now, in my examination, I asked you about the activity related to
2 the VRS forces. And what I want you to do now is to look at paragraph 1
3 where it says the word "enemy" there. Do you see that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And I'm just going to read the first three lines. It says, "In
6 the second Sarajevo Light Infantry Brigade area of responsibility, at 6.00
7 in the morning, the enemy opened fierce fire at the Famos factory. The
8 settlement of Grlica and Vojkovici from the area of Gradina, Igman, and
9 Lasica." Do you see that sentence there?
10 A. Yes. Yes, I do.
11 Q. I want you to concentrate on the area Gradina, Igman, and Lasica.
12 Do you know where those locations are?
13 A. Yes, I do. These are settlements close to the Famos factory.
14 Q. And would you be able to mark then on the map?
15 MR. SACHDEVA: If we could have the map back on, please.
16 Q. You have the map there, Witness.
17 MR. SACHDEVA: Could I ask the court usher to assist.
18 Q. Which location is that?
19 A. It's Lasica, under the control of the army. These were
20 residential buildings. The civilian population lived there, and it was in
21 the immediate vicinity of the defence lines.
22 Q. And who controlled that area?
23 A. The BH army did.
24 Q. Did you place the letters ABiH in the middle of that circle,
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. Can you now tell the Court from that location where you have just
3 marked to the location in the centre of Hrasnica where the incident took
4 place, what is the approximate distance?
5 A. About a kilometre, maybe a little more, a few hundred metres more
7 Q. Now, sticking with the map, in cross-examination, you marked two
8 roads leading from the tunnel. You see the two roads on the dotted blue
9 line; one going to Hrasnica and one going on the Igman road around the
10 mountain. Do you see them there?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. On which road did vehicles travel to Mount Igman?
13 A. The vehicles went to Mount Igman along the road from Glavogodna
14 above the Stojcevac area and then on towards Igman above Kovaci and
16 Q. Can you mark that road with a letter V, please, the road that the
17 vehicles took to the Igman mountain.
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. Yes. Just perhaps to be clear, from the two blue dotted lines,
20 which road are you talking about?
21 A. The one across from Igman. It was a road through the forest. We
22 called the Road of Salvation. It was the only one that could be used by
23 vehicles. We also called it Death Road.
24 Q. Yes. And can you put the V on that road, on the dotted blue line,
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. That's fine. Thank you.
3 MR. SACHDEVA: Now, Mr. President, I just want to be clear. I am'
4 not sure whether this specifically arises out of cross-examination, but
5 the place where the witness has said that he heard the launch came from, I
6 would just like the witness to mark that with a L, just for the purposes
7 of clarity.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I will allow that.
9 MR. SACHDEVA:
10 Q. Witness, you see where you marked in examination, when I asked you
11 questions, the origin of fire point. Can you just put a L beside that
12 point, please?
13 A. [Marks]
14 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I tender that into evidence.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As P545, Your Honours.
18 MR. SACHDEVA:
19 Q. Now, Witness, counsel for the Defence, in cross-examination, asked
20 you about whether you had included in your report the eye-witnesses that
21 saw the launch of the projectile. Do you remember being asked those
23 A. Yes. I remember being asked that question.
24 Q. That is fine for the moment.
25 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, could I ask that 65 ter 787C be
1 brought up on the screen.
2 Q. Witness, you see a document on the right-hand side in your
4 A. Yes. Yes, I do.
5 Q. And what is that document?
6 A. It's a criminal report against an unknown perpetrator concerning
7 the event we have been talking about. It mentioned the time and the
8 place. It refers to the event that happened in Hrasnica on that day.
9 Q. And just to confirm, this is the event that you yourself
10 investigated; is that right?
11 A. Yes, that's correct.
12 MR. SACHDEVA: If I could now ask to move to the -- to the second
13 page, please.
14 Q. And, Witness, the third paragraph down from the top on that page,
15 do you see where it speaks -- do you see the name (redacted)
25 Q. Now, this report --
1 A. [Previous translation continues] ... his binoculars.
2 MR. SACHDEVA:
3 Q. This report, Witness, does it appear to you to be an official
4 report from the Ministry of the Interior?
5 A. Probably, the prosecutor's office, when it continued its
6 investigation, came by this information and took a statement from this man
7 who is mentioned here. But I did not do this. This must have been done
8 by the prosecutor's office.
9 Q. Nevertheless, does this appear to you to be an official and
10 authentic report from the prosecutor's office?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I ask had a this document be
13 tendered and be admitted into evidence.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, you have a submission.
16 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
17 I just wanted to say that for such an important witness, an
18 important witness to the Defence, like (redacted), I object to the
19 tendering of this document because the witness has not been involved in
20 the drafting of it. And the Defence would also like to ask this gentleman
21 to be called to testify because we would have liked to cross-examine him.
22 This gentleman gave three totally different statements, so (redacted)
23 would be an extremely important witness for the chamber also. Perhaps the
24 Prosecutor could call this gentleman to testify.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: And if the Prosecutor doesn't call him to
1 testify, you will call him. Is that right what you're saying?
2 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. If the Prosecutor does not
3 wish to call him, we would like to call him, because it seems to me that
4 he is a very important witness; he, being the source of information here,
5 and he has provided three completely different statements.
6 In addition, the Prosecutor could perhaps tell us why they -- he
7 has not called him to testify.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, Mr. Sachdeva, on the question of the
9 admissibility, the point that is being made is that this witness is not
10 sufficiently involved or was not sufficiently involved in the preparation
11 of this document.
12 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, on that specific point, there have
13 been documents that are admitted already in evidence that have not
14 necessarily been drafted by a particular witness; and, in fact, in this
15 examination, the witness has confirmed bomb squad reports and other
16 reports not compiled and drafted by himself. And as a member of the
17 police, he has validated the authenticity and confirmed that they referred
18 to the incident that he investigated.
19 Similarly, I would submit that is correct this applies to this
20 particular document and that it pertains to an incident that he
21 investigated, and he has confirmed it to be through his knowledge of it
22 being a police officer for three or four years during the war to be an
23 authenticity document.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: It was prepared by whom?
25 MR. SACHDEVA: It was prepared by somebody called Enes Bezdrob.
1 That's at the bottom of the page.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: And he was the BiH prosecutor?
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Who is Enes Bedzdrob, Witness?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Enes Bedzdrob, at that time, when
5 this was drawn up, I don't know. But probably what I do know is that at
6 one time he was the head of the CSB. But at the time this statement was
7 taken, it says that he was the chief of the security centre of the CSB of
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the CSB? What does that stand for.
10 MR. SACHDEVA: It's the Security Services Centre, Mr. President,
11 or Ministry of the Interior.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Prosecutor, could we please go to the top of
14 this document again.
15 MR. SACHDEVA: Absolutely. If the page could be -- if the first
16 page could be brought back and on the English version, please.
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Prosecutor, could you please explain to us
18 what this document really is. It looks to me as if it's an indictment,
19 but I'm not having doubts about what it is.
20 [Prosecution counsel confer]
21 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, from my limited knowledge of the
22 system in the former Yugoslavia, this would be charges that are being
23 brought up by the police, which are then sent to the public prosecutor,
24 and typically the charges include the details of the case, a brief
25 description, and other important facts in evidence that -- that would be
1 given to the public prosecutor to decide whether an official indictment
2 should be brought.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber rules that the document can't be
5 tendered through this witness. It is, of course, open to the Defence to
6 call the person mentioned in it what's his name? If you scroll down we
7 can see the name.
8 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: (redacted)
10 MR. SACHDEVA: Might I make a brief -- in the interests of
11 transparency, might I make a brief submission in private session.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.
13 [Private session]
11 Pages 4602-4603 redacted. Private session.
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
7 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, before I continue, can I just ask
8 that the previous document be given an exhibit number, please.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Remind me which one was that? What was that?
10 MR. SACHDEVA: That was the document that we had submissions on.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I remember. Yes.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be admitted as P546.
13 MR. SACHDEVA:
14 Q. Witness, I won't be much longer.
15 I'm going take you back to cross-examination, and do you recall,
16 firstly, counsel for the Defence asking you questions about whether there
17 were reporters at the scene on the day of the incident? Do you recall
18 those questions or that question?
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We can't hear the witness.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please answer again. The interpreter could not
21 hear you.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I remember being asked about
23 the presence of reporters.
24 MR. SACHDEVA:
25 Q. And, indeed, your answer was, "There were reporter. There was a
1 big crowd as far as I was able to state -- as far as I was able to
2 notice." You said, "It was clearly seen that something major had happened
3 in Hrasnica, and I did notice a few reporter vehicles."
4 Can you elaborate a little bit of what you saw and what you now
5 with respect to the journalists?
6 A. As far as I can remember, there were two UNPROFOR APCs and a
7 couple of jeeps, and I noticed people with cameras near the scene.
8 Q. Were you able to ascertain whether the people with cameras were --
9 were from Bosnia-Herzegovina or were they foreign journalists?
10 A. I think that those were foreign journalists. I think so.
11 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I would like to play a video and
12 that is an excerpt from a video. That is the excerpt that Your Honours
13 have granted the Prosecution to add on its witness -- exhibit list, and
14 the video ERN is V000-7160.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Isailovic.
17 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Before you allow or not the Prosecution's request, if we see this
19 video, if you allow for this video, will I be allowed to ask a few
20 questions to the witness? I did not ask these questions because the video
21 had not been shown so far. So this is my submission.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva, you must tell us about the video
23 and explain how the contents of the video arise from cross-examination.
24 Is this the video that you had mentioned at the beginning of the session?
25 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes, Mr. President. It is the excerpt from -- from
1 a BBC video that was --
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: I had the impression that you would have sought
3 to have it played during examination-in-chief. In any event, please
4 explain what it is and how it arises from cross-examination.
5 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I submit that it does arise out
6 the cross-examination because counsel had asked the witness about
7 journalists on the scene. And I have asked the witness from his knowledge
8 whether these journalists were foreign or journalists from
9 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and his response was that he thought they were
11 This video, in the Prosecution's submission, purports to show the
12 aftermath of the incident that is the subject of this witness'
13 examination, and it is from the BBC; namely, a foreign news company. And
14 therefore, in my submission, it does arise out of cross-examination.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: You say it arises because the witness was
16 cross-examined about journalists being on the scene.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Now, Mr. Tapuskovic.
19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, although my
20 colleague, Ms. Isailovic is questioning this witness, you may remember
21 that at the beginning we, as the Defence, had no objection to this being
22 shown, and we expected to see that during examination-in-chief.
23 Therefore, I see no reason why one can say that this is necessary to do
24 this at this point in time. Why wasn't that done during the
25 examination-in-chief; and in that respect, we believe that it is up to you
1 to assess this motion and to decide thereupon.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. But, Mr. Tapuskovic, the proper basis for
3 opposing is not that it wasn't done in chief but that it doesn't arise out
4 of cross-examination. What do you have to say to that, or Ms. Isailovic?
5 Does it arise properly out of cross-examination. That's the issue.
6 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Well, Your Honour, it does
7 not arise from the cross-examination, which is why before your decision, I
8 said that if you came up with a positive decision we need additional
9 questions after we see this video, because it's almost as if Mr. Sachdeva
10 was going through a new in-chief with this video.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: We are of the view that you have not really
13 explained what the video shows. What are the contents of the video?
14 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I'm quite able to do that. I don't
15 know whether if indeed you allow plea to show it whether--
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, no. Not to show it, to tell us. We want to
17 know what it purports to show.
18 MR. SACHDEVA: Well t purports to show it is a 20 or 30 news
19 bulletin about an incident in Hrasnica, and it then pans to -- to what the
20 Prosecution submits was the location of the incident that we've just been
21 hearing evidence on.
22 So it is essentially a video of the aftermath of the 7th of April
23 1995 in Hrasnica, at least that is what the Prosecution submits, and that
24 is why I wanted to show it to the witness.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: So essentially it doesn't have anything to do
1 with journalists?
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber rules that it does not arise out the
4 cross-examination, and we will not allow the video to be shown.
5 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, might I just have one request?
6 I understand your order and that I'm bound by that. In truth, you
7 know, because of the time constraints I had, it was my oversight. Of
8 course, I intended to show it in my examination-in-chief; however, because
9 of time constraints I forgot. And upon questions about Defence counsel,
10 and in particular the questions related to the journalists, I, in my
11 submission, thought that it did arise out of cross-examination. I
12 understand Your Honour's ruling on that, but what I would ask that is the
13 next witness, who also will speak to this incident in brief, whether I
14 could show the video to the next witness in my examination-in-chief. I
15 ask permission because it's not on the list provided to the Defence
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We will allow that. If you can lead it
19 through the next witness, I don't see why not. There's the very technical
20 objection that it's not on the list, but I don't think the Defence will
21 insist on that and I will not insist on it.
22 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Q. Witness, okay. My final question: Witness 57, at the very
24 beginning of cross-examination - and I'm seeking a clarification here -
25 counsel for the Defence showed you the aerial photograph with the houses
1 at the location of the incident. Do you recall that?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. And the precise question by counsel, and that's on page 25, line
4 21 is: "Witness, you said that there were a lot of material damage caused
5 by the war and particularly there in Hrasnica. I presume that at the time
6 this incident occurred on the 7th April, there weren't very many houses in
7 which you could live in at the time. Is that right, in Hrasnica."
8 And your response was: "What do you mean by uninhabitable
10 And the next question was: "Again, you mention there was material
11 damage caused by the war. This incident occurred on the 7th of April
12 1995; therefore, a long while after the beginning of the war -- after the
13 beginning of convict. So my question to you is this: At this particular
14 point in time, did the damage caused by military operations render these
15 houses uninhabitable."
16 And your answer was: "Yes. There were such houses, but most of
17 the houses were unsafe to live in and, mostly, they were in the vicinity
18 of the confrontation lines; whereas, the other houses in Hrasnica, Butmir
19 and other settlements that were damages as a result of the war were places
20 where did live, because they had no other places to live".
21 I just don't want there to be any confusion with respect to the
22 particular houses that counsel was speaking about. And so the houses that
23 were in the vicinity of the location where the bomb exploded, were these
24 houses -- were people living in those houses at the time?
25 A. Yes. People lived in those houses at the time. And the proof is
1 that people were living in the house where the bomb exploded as well.
2 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.
3 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, that concludes my re-examination.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness 57, that concludes your evidence. We
5 thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give it. You may now leave.
6 [The witness stands down]
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: The next witness.
8 MR. SACHDEVA: The next witness is W-116.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: How much time is allocated for the
10 examination-in-chief for this witness.
11 MR. SACHDEVA: One hour, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: 92 ter, is it?
13 MR. SACHDEVA: That's right.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: And for cross-examination?
15 MR. SACHDEVA: One and a half hours.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: An hour and a half.
17 [The witness entered court]
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
20 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
21 WITNESS: WITNESS W-116
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Sachdeva.
24 Examination by Mr. Sachdeva:
25 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
1 A. Good afternoon.
2 Q. Just to inform you that you had requested the Prosecution
3 requested protective measures on your behalf, and the Court has granted
4 the measures in the face -- in the name of face distortion and pseudonym.
5 A. Thank you very much.
6 Q. I'm now going to hand you a piece of paper with your personal
7 details, and I want you to confirm to the Court that those details are
9 A. Yes. Yes, these are my personal details.
10 MR. SACHDEVA: I ask that be admitted under seal, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's admitted.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes P547, under seal.
13 MR. SACHDEVA:
14 Q. Witness 116, do you remember giving statements to the Office of
15 the Prosecutor on the 14th of November, 1995; the 26th of February, 1996;
16 the 11th of March, 1997; and the 28th of November, 1997.
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. Were you given an opportunity to review and read over those
19 statements in the -- yesterday in my office?
20 A. Yes. I was given an opportunity to read and review the statements
21 that I made earlier.
22 Q. Upon review of those, statements can you now confirm to the Court
23 that the contents are accurate and true, to the best of your recollection
24 and knowledge?
25 A. Yes. Yes. I can confirm that all my statements are true and
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. SACHDEVA: Could I can ask that 65 ter 03108 be brought up and
4 for it not to be broadcast, please.
5 I think there is a slight technical hitch.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have it on my monitor.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, you're more fortunate than we are.
8 MR. SACHDEVA: Witness, these things sometimes happen.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No problem.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have it now.
11 MR. SACHDEVA: Can we have the English version, please.
12 Q. All right. Witness, on the left-hand side, you'll see a statement
13 from the 14th of November, 1995. I just want you to look at the bottom
14 and confirm that that is indeed your signature.
15 MR. SACHDEVA: If it can be scrolled down to the bottom, please.
16 No, of the English version.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is my signature.
18 MR. SACHDEVA:
19 Q. If I were to ask you questions today in court, would the answers
20 that you give to the Court reflect the contents of this statement?
21 A. Yes, of course.
22 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I ask that this is admitted under
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's admitted.
25 THE REGISTRAR: As P548, under seal, Your Honours.
1 MR. SACHDEVA: Can I now have 65 ter 03109 on the screen, please.
2 Q. Witness, again, same procedure.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. This is a statement from the 26th of February, 1996. Do you see
5 your signature, and do you confirm that that is indeed your signature.
6 A. Yes, yes. This is my signature.
7 Q. And, again, if I was to ask you questions in court, would your
8 answers reflect the contents of this statement?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 MR. SACHDEVA: I ask that this statement be admitted under seal,
11 Mr. President.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
13 THE REGISTRAR: As P549, under seal, Your Honours.
14 MR. SACHDEVA: The next 65 ter is 03110, if that could be brought
15 up, please.
16 Q. Witness, do you see the statement there from the 11th of March,
17 1997, and can you confirm your signature on the bottom right-hand side?
18 A. At the bottom on the right-hand side of the left-hand side
19 document, which is in English.
20 Q. Yes, that's correct. Is that your signature?
21 A. Yes. This is my signature.
22 Q. Again, if I was to ask you questions in court, would your answers
23 reflect the content of this statement?
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I ask that this be admitted under
1 seal, and I note that the part of the statement that deals with an
2 incident on the 29th of June, 1995 at boulevard, Mese Selimovica Street,
3 is an incident that has been dropped and removed pursuant to the 73 bis
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We admit it.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes P550.
7 MR. SACHDEVA: Under seal.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Under seal, Your Honours.
9 MR. SACHDEVA: Lastly, if I could have 65 ter 03111 brought up on
10 the screen, please.
11 Q. Witness 116, same questions: Is that your statement from the 28th
12 of November, 1997, and is that your signature?
13 A. Yes, but this was the 28th of November, 1997.
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. The date of the interview.
16 Q. Yes. I thought I said 28th of November, but thank you for that.
17 If I was to ask you questions again in court, would your reflect
18 the content of this statement?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 MR. SACHDEVA: I ask that this statement be admitted under seal,
21 Mr. President.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. It's admitted.
23 THE REGISTRAR: As P551, under seal, Your Honours.
24 MR. SACHDEVA:
25 Q. Witness 116, during the war were you a police officer?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What was your exact title?
3 A. I was a forensic technician in the public security centre in
5 Q. Were you assigned to a particular police station; and if so, which
6 one was that?
7 A. I was in the centre for public security of Sarajevo, so we covered
8 all the police stations on the territory of the city of Sarajevo,
9 including Hrasnica.
10 Q. And as a forensic technician what was - and very briefly - your
12 A. As a forensic technician, my duties were to go with a team and the
13 team leader, usually a crime inspector; and in serious cases, there always
14 had to be a judge and court experts. Together we would go to the scene of
15 the crime and collect all the relevant information, which would later be
16 used to reconstruct the crime. My task was, first, when we arrived on
17 site, we would get information from the uniformed policemen on the site
18 whose task had been to secure the scene number your arrival. They would
19 collect the basic information about what had happened and then they would
20 brief us.
21 After that, the team leader, who was usually a judge or a criminal
22 inspector, would decide how the inspection or the investigation would
23 proceed. My task would be to photograph the scene of the crime; to
24 photograph the broader view, the general view, showing all the roads
25 leading up to the scene, the surrounding buildings, and so on; and then to
1 take photographs of the site itself.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 A. After that --
4 Q. Thank you. Did you also prepare sketches of the scene?
5 A. Yes, yes. Yes. My next task would be to make sketches of the
6 scene indicating the most important details relevant for the crime. And
7 the sketch would then be appended to the photographic documentation. That
8 would be two parts of one whole, and then the third part would be the
9 forensic report. So those would be the three different parts of my
11 Q. And when you speak about going to the scene of the crime, what
12 types of crimes are you speaking about?
13 A. As a forensic technician, I worked on all kinds of crimes,
14 commonly crimes occurring in peacetime, such as burglaries, murders,
15 serious traffic accidents; but also in wartime, war crimes.
16 Q. Ant I want just to concentrate on the war and, in particular, the
17 time-period of August 1994 through November 1995. What types of incidents
18 did you investigate?
19 A. In this period, because Sarajevo was being shelled intensively,
20 most of these on-site investigations had to do with shelling or sniping on
21 Sarajevo and its citizens.
22 Q. Sticking to the shelling, did you investigate an incident in
23 Hrasnica on the 7th of April, 1995?
24 A. Yes. Yes, I did.
25 Q. And did you go to the scene?
1 A. Yes, I did, with the entire team. With me was a ballistics expert
2 and there were inspectors from the crime investigation department from
3 Hrasnica and also UN observers.
4 Q. Thank you. When you went to the scene and when you did your
5 investigation, did you produce a sketch of the incident site?
6 A. Yes. Yes, I did.
7 MR. SACHDEVA: If I could ask that 65 ter 00107 be brought up and,
8 again, for it not to be broadcast, please.
9 If the right-hand side of the B/C/S version, if the next page
10 could be shown, please.
11 And for the benefit of the Court, the translation, the English
12 translation is 00620089. So by my counting, that's page 10 of the English
13 version. It starts on page 10 of the English version. Page 11.
14 Q. Witness, on the right-hand side, do you see the sketch, your
15 sketch that you made at the scene?
16 A. Yes, but I see only the front page.
17 MR. SACHDEVA: If we can go to the next page.
18 Q. Is that your sketch, or rather, is that the legend from your
20 A. Yes. That is the legend pertaining to the sketch and the
21 description of the events.
22 MR. SACHDEVA: And if we can could go to the next page, please,
23 I'm not sure whether this page and the next page can be shown together as
24 the full sketch?
25 Q. Is that your sketch, Witness 116?
1 A. Yes, yes. This is my sketch. The sketch of the scene of the
3 Q. And on this sketch, can you -- can you say where the bomb
4 exploded? Is that marked there?
5 A. Yes, yes. It's indicated here where there is a group of traces.
6 It fell on the house marked 14. In the legend, it's the house under
7 number 14.
8 Q. Okay. The 14, that is on the corner of the right-hand side by the
9 square; is that right?
10 A. Yes. Yes, on the right-hand side.
11 Q. And do you see a dotted line on the top left-hand corner of the
13 A. Yes. Yes, I do.
14 Q. What is that?
15 A. It represents the direction from which the projectile arrived.
16 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I ask that this sketch be admitted
17 into evidence under seal.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
19 We are at the time for the break. We will adjourn and resume
20 tomorrow at 9.00.
21 What is the number for this?
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be P552, under seal.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
24 We're adjourned.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,
1 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 18th day of
2 April, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.