1 Monday, 4 June 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty, you are to continue your

7 cross-examination.

8 MR. DOCHERTY: Yes, Your Honour.

9 WITNESS: MILORAD KATIC [Resumed]

10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 Cross-examination by Mr. Docherty: [Continued]

12 Q. Good morning again, Mr. Katic. I trust you had a pleasant

13 weekend.

14 Mr. Katic --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak up.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, thank you.

17 MR. DOCHERTY:

18 Q. Mr. Katic, when we broke Friday, we were going through Prosecution

19 exhibit 496.

20 MR. DOCHERTY: And I would ask that to be brought back to the

21 screen. I have just a couple of more questions about that document.

22 Q. Do you see it there, sir?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. And I'd like to direct your attention to paragraph number 3, down

25 at the bottom of -- down towards the bottom of the screen. I'm going to

1 read it in English. I'd just ask to you listen and make sure I read it

2 correctly: "I forbid all use of weapons of bigger calibre on civilian

3 targets in Sarajevo without my approval."

4 Do you see that, sir?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we are again facing

8 the same problem like the last time. That the witness is asked to

9 interpret the contents of a document and I object to this.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: We haven't heard a question yet, Mr. Tapuskovic,

11 and last time I ruled that he wasn't being asked to do what you said. You

12 said then he was being asked to interpret the intentions of Mr. Mladic,

13 and at that time my determination was that that was not the case. But

14 your strike is preemptive.

15 Let us see what the question and then we will see where we go.

16 MR. DOCHERTY:

17 Q. So, Mr. Katic, this paragraph number 3 does not then forbid the

18 use of smaller calibre against targets in Sarajevo, does it?

19 A. Mr. Prosecutor, looking and considering carefully paragraph 3, and

20 if it is -- if I'm to speak as a psychologist, that would seem to be the

21 case, based on this language. However, it is inconceivable to me that

22 this sentence can be interpreted that we are not going to use heavy

23 weaponry, but we are going to fire from infantry weapons. I really am

24 reluctant to comment on this.

25 Q. I understand your reluctance, Mr. Katic, but all I'm asking you is

1 what the plain language of the document says. And if I understood your

2 answer correctly, you say that it does seem to allow the use of smaller

3 calibre weapons against civilian targets, but that you cannot really

4 believe that it says that. Is that a fair summary of what you just told

5 the Court?

6 A. That's what I said.

7 Q. Now, I'm going to shift to -- I'm staying on this document but a

8 rightly different topic. If I understood your direct examination

9 by Mr. Tapuskovic correctly, you indicated that had you some question as

10 to whether this meeting had taken place, and this was when you were

11 testifying that General Mladic may have been misunderstood. Did I

12 understand correctly that you expressed some doubt as to whether there

13 meeting in Vogosca on the 5th of November had ever occurred, or did I

14 misunderstand?

15 A. I think that this meeting in that form, so to say, involving all

16 the civilians representatives of the Serbian Sarajevo, apart from me,

17 didn't take place, and I think that you understand from my statement

18 before the lawyer what I said.

19 Q. Actually, I was basing my question upon what you said to the

20 lawyers in your statement back in August, when you spoke with Mr. Hogan

21 and Mr. Sachdeva from the Office of the Prosecutor, rather than denying

22 that such a meeting had occurred, you speculated a bit about who might

23 have been in attendance. Do you recall that, sir?

24 A. Yes, I do. I do remember a conversation in August with the

25 investigators in Sarajevo.

1 Q. And did you, during that conversation in Sarajevo, with the

2 investigators in August of 2006, talk about who might have been present at

3 this meeting in Vogosca?

4 A. Yes. I said that had that meeting happened, Mr. Stanisic might

5 have been present, the president of Vogosca municipality, Mr. Koprivica;

6 vice-president of the town of the Serbian Sarajevo, Mr. Radic. In other

7 words, I said that these persons who were working in Vogosca might have

8 been there if the meeting indeed had taken place.

9 Q. You testified on Friday, when we just began a little bit of

10 cross-examination, that the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps had communications

11 equipment, radios, and field telephones, and you talked about stringing

12 the wires for the telephone. Isn't the case, sir, that General Mladic

13 could have communicated with General Milosevic and learned immediately

14 from him about what had happened in Vogosca on the 5th of November?

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, all these questions

17 involve assumptions. The witness said decidedly that he never attended

18 that meeting, and he keeps using the word "if." I don't know why we are

19 now in the area of suppositions, although the witness said that he has no

20 knowledge of it.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I agree. I think the last question is

22 improper and invites speculation.

23 MR. DOCHERTY: I withdraw that question.

24 Q. Let me ask the question this way. On Friday, you testified that

25 the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps had field telephones and radios, is that

1 correct, and that you knew this from your time as a serving soldier in

2 1992 and 1993?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. During your -- excuse me. This document in paragraph number 1

5 mentions UNPROFOR; and during your examination-in-chief, you testified

6 about relations with UNPROFOR, and in particular, I believe, you mentioned

7 several times the good relations that you had with the G5 of the French

8 Battalion. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes, it is.

10 MR. DOCHERTY: If we could please see 65 ter number 03147.

11 Q. Mr. Katic, on the right-hand side is the B/C/S version of this

12 document and on the left is the English. Is this a communication from

13 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command, and is it dated 26th November 1994?

14 A. This is the first time that I see this document. I can see in the

15 letterhead, "The Command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps." I have read the

16 document itself, and I can see that someone else has signed it on behalf

17 of the commander, and I don't know whose signature this is.

18 Q. The question I actually asked, sir, was whether it was dated the

19 26th of November, 1994.

20 A. Yes. It says here the date, 26th November, and that's in the

21 letterhead.

22 Q. And this is dated -- by being dated 26th of November, this is

23 approximately 21 days, if my arithmetic is right, after the order from

24 General Mladic, is that correct, three weeks, in other words?

25 A. Well, it is true that between the 5th and the 26th, the period is

1 21 days.

2 Q. And now let's get to the signature. In the lower left-hand side,

3 it says, "Komandant, General Major Dragomir Milosevic," correct, and then

4 there is a stamp with Cyrillic lettering on it. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes, it is.

6 Q. And in the centre of the stamp, the Serbian double-headed eagle;

7 correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And the last line of this document says: "You are to fire at the

10 centre of deployed UNPROFOR forces," doesn't it?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I'm going to switch topics now, sir.

13 Do you recall testifying concerning the confrontation lines on

14 Debelo Brdo, a hill to the south of Sarajevo?

15 A. Yes, I do. I said that there was a conflict surrounding Debelo

16 Brdo; however, as far as I know, not exactly to the south, if that is the

17 same hill where I was deployed as a soldier.

18 Q. I think we're talking about the same hill; and if we're not, I

19 think it will become clear in a moment or two.

20 MR. DOCHERTY: Before I go on, Mr. President, could I please

21 tender the document that is now on the screen?

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's admitted.

23 THE REGISTRAR: As P751, Your Honours.

24 MR. DOCHERTY:

25 Q. You are from Sarajevo, Mr. Katic, and have lived there all your

1 life. Am I right about that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. As a result, you know the city well, and the area around the city,

4 also, you know that well?

5 A. I think I know it pretty well.

6 Q. And as you've testified a couple of times, as a private soldier

7 serving in the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, you were stationed at the base of

8 Debelo Brdo?

9 A. It wasn't Debelo Brdo, and I wasn't on Debelo Brdo as a soldier

10 ever.

11 Q. Then I perhaps misunderstood. Where were you -- where was your

12 station when you were a soldier in the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

13 A. On the line between Vrace, or rather, my house in Ohridska Street,

14 towards Zlatiste, and that is as far as Debelo Brdo.

15 Q. I see. Okay. Thank you for the clarification. Are you then

16 familiar with the confrontation lines in the area of Debelo Brdo, about

17 which you testified after all, on direct examination?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And so you are aware that the United Nations actually had an

20 observation post on the very, very top of Debelo Brdo, and then below them

21 was the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Is that accurate?

22 A. It is correct that on the peak of Debelo Brdo were members of

23 UNPROFOR; and almost at the same elevation, but on the other side, were

24 members of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

25 Q. And then below the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina was the army of

1 Republika Srpska, the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps specifically; is that

2 correct?

3 A. No, that's not correct.

4 Q. Where, then, was the army of Republika Srpska? On Debelo Brdo

5 itself.

6 A. There were no VRS troops on Debelo Brdo itself. They were on the

7 line towards Zlatiste, if one climbs towards Mount Trebevic on the

8 right-hand side starting from Grbavica. If you can understand what an I'm

9 saying.

10 Q. I think in a minute we'll see a photograph that will help us; but

11 in any event, of the two warring factions, the army of Bosnia and

12 Herzegovina did have the high ground on the hill called Debelo Brdo

13 itself; is that correct?

14 A. Yes, it is.

15 Q. All right. But to the south of Debelo Brdo, there is a ridge

16 line, is that correct, more hills?

17 A. Lower hills to the south are below Debelo Brdo.

18 Q. Aren't those hills in fact higher than Debelo Brdo? From the

19 hills to the south, do you not look down on the top of Debelo Brdo?

20 A. No, they are not.

21 MR. DOCHERTY: Could we please see a photograph with 65 ter number

22 03185.

23 Q. Mr. Katic, as someone who has lived in Sarajevo all his life, do

24 you recognise the scene that's in the photograph on the monitor in front

25 of you?

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. And you see that in the centre of the photograph, a little bit to

3 the viewers right, there is the peak of a lower hill than the one on which

4 the photographer is standing. That lower peak, sir, is Debelo Brdo, is it

5 not?

6 A. This photograph is made very well, and it is true that this thing

7 down there is the peak of Debelo Brdo.

8 Q. All right. And behind Debelo Brdo, you can see the city of

9 Sarajevo; correct?

10 A. Yes, I can see it.

11 Q. And this photograph was taken from the south, looking to the

12 north; correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And this photograph is taken from territory that during the armed

15 conflict was under the command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps; correct?

16 A. Probably from the distance where the Republika Srpska army troops

17 were.

18 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President, I'll tender this photograph into

19 evidence, please.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's admitted.

21 THE REGISTRAR: As P752, Your Honours.

22 MR. DOCHERTY:

23 Q. And at this point, Mr. President, I'll call for Prosecution

24 Exhibit 194. It is a map. It will take a while to load, and I will

25 continue my examination while that is going on.

1 Judge Harhoff?

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: While we wait for the next exhibit, my question to

3 the witness is whether the building that we can see on top of Debelo Brdo

4 is the observe post?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the UNPROFOR observation

6 post.

7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much.

8 MR. DOCHERTY:

9 Q. Mr. Katic, while we wait for the map, there was testimony earlier

10 in this trial from a Canadian army general named David Fraser, and I'm

11 going to tell you some of the things he testified to and ask whether you

12 agree or disagree.

13 At one point in his testimony, he was asked to describe an

14 imaginary walk from the top of Debelo Brdo to the south, and he said:

15 "Well, if you went south, you actually walked down a bit of a hill but

16 then uphill, where in fact the Serbs had their positions which was

17 slightly above Debelo Brdo, and you could leaning over the sort of a

18 little bit of a dip in the flat area and up higher, and that's where the

19 Serbs were, all along the ridge line."

20 Is that a fair characterisation of the situation around Debelo

21 Brdo, Mr. Katic?

22 A. Partially.

23 Q. Is it partially true that the land to the south of Debelo Brdo is

24 in fact above Debelo Brdo, as we saw in the photograph we just admitted

25 into evidence, sir?

1 A. At Zlatiste, the Republika Srpska army had its positions; and

2 until June, this was the territory controlled by the Bosnia-Herzegovina

3 army. This was the communication route, a road leading to the Mount

4 Trebevic and Pale from Grbavica and Lukavica.

5 In relation to Debelo Brdo, this elevation is deep inside a wooded

6 area; and from the woods, it's a pine wood, you can see the top of Debelo

7 Brdo, the UNPROFOR observation post, and all the way down to what this

8 gentleman from the Canadian battalion just mentioned; and then all the way

9 down to Strma Stijena, the sheer cliffs, that's where the Republika Srpska

10 had its positions. And in relation to Debelo Brdo, it is not high ground,

11 subsequently speaking.

12 But below Debelo Brdo, heading towards Kovacici and Grbavica,

13 wherever the troops were stationed along the separation lines, the Debelo

14 Brdo elevation was the high ground in relation to all those positions in

15 the direction of the separation line at Kovacici and then further on to

16 Vrbanja bridge and Grbavica.

17 MR. DOCHERTY: If we could turn then to the map, I'll ask the

18 usher to zoom in on the area south and very slightly east of the city,

19 which is the area of Debelo Brdo that we've been discussing.

20 Q. Mr. Katic, just take a moment and get oriented with that map. Let

21 me know when you are oriented, and then I will have one or two questions

22 for you.

23 Mr. Katic, would it help if we zoomed in a bit, or is this good

24 for you?

25 A. I'd like to zoom it in a little bit.

1 Q. Sure. How's that, better?

2 A. Yes. It's better now, but I can't read any of the letters. But I

3 will, I hope, manage to find my way around it.

4 Q. Well, if you can't, that's all right. There's other evidence, but

5 I did want to ask you this: This is the map that during his testimony the

6 Canadian officer used to talk about the confrontation lines and the area

7 of town that you have been giving your testimony about. And so my

8 question would be: Can you confirm that these confrontation lines, red

9 for the army of Republika Srpska and blue for the army of

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina, are accurate as shown on this map?

11 A. I think that it's 95 per cent accurate, the separation lines, I

12 mean.

13 Q. When you say it's 95 per cent accurate, does that mean it's, in a

14 general sense, accurate; or does that mean that you've actually seen some

15 specific inaccuracy, and that's the 5 per cent that's not accurate?

16 A. No. I think that it is possible to orient oneself well on this

17 map. I don't know whether the separation lines as drawn here on the

18 right-hand side are completely accurate. Here it's possible to see; and,

19 in fact, based on what you asked me, the Zlatiste-Debelo Brdo separation

20 line is the point, and I don't know if that's what I can see here as a

21 witness.

22 Q. Well, let's -- let's move on then.

23 MR. DOCHERTY: And I'll ask now for another photograph. It's 65

24 ter number 03186.

25 Q. And, again, Mr. Katic, as a life-long resident of the city of

1 Sarajevo, do you recognise the scene that's depicted in the photograph now

2 in front of you on the monitor?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And is it fair to say that this is taken from a spot on the road

5 that runs between Lukavica and Pale along the ridge line to the south of

6 the city of Sarajevo. Is that an accurate description?

7 A. It could have been taken from one stretch of the road, either from

8 the road itself or maybe a little bit further down from the road. It's

9 impossible for me to determine on the basis of this photograph whether

10 this was taken from the territory held by the Republika Srpska army or the

11 army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. But even if it had been taken from the

12 part of the road from Zlatiste to Mount Trebevic, about 100 metres down

13 that road, you could actually see this from that road, from that position.

14 Q. Okay. If the hill called Debelo Brdo would be just off to the

15 left margin of this photograph, not entirely in the photograph; but, in

16 other words, the one that we looked at a few minutes ago, if the

17 photographer turned a little to the right, this would be the seen that

18 would be visible. Am I right about that?

19 A. To the left of this photograph, there's Debelo Brdo. It may be

20 about 300 metres away from the location where this photograph was taken.

21 Q. And the top of Debelo Brdo, again, would be below the level at

22 which this photograph was taken; is that right?

23 A. I'm not a surveyor, and I can't determine the -- whether the

24 actual height of Debelo Brdo is level with this or whether one has -- is

25 on the high ground in relation to the other. On the basis of actually

1 looking at this location where this photograph may have been taken from,

2 in my opinion, they -- those two sites may have been level, so this

3 position here and the summit of Debelo Brdo.

4 Q. Do you know, Mr. Katic, that the witness before you was an

5 operations officer, a major, in the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

6 A. I don't know what position he held in that corps. I saw the

7 gentleman here, but I don't know what post he held in the corps.

8 Q. Well, the reason that I'm asking the question is because in your

9 last answer you expressed some doubt as to which army controlled the land

10 on which this photograph was taken, and I wanted to, for the record, point

11 out that on page --

12 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President, for the record, page 5498 of the

13 transcript at lines 15 through 22.

14 Q. -- when shown a photograph, either this photograph on one like it

15 said that "from the elevation controlled by the SRK, there is a much

16 better view, 50 per cent better. It is in our territory way up above the

17 road."

18 Is there even higher ground behind the photograph? I'm not asking

19 to you be is surveyor. I'm asking you as a life-long resident of the city

20 of Sarajevo who knows the city well. In other words, if one turned 180

21 degrees from this photograph and started walking, once you crossed the

22 road, you would start climbing, wouldn't you?

23 A. That's correct. But what you're asking me is what I'm telling

24 you. This photograph may have been taken both from the territory held by

25 the Bosnia-Herzegovina army. I know that the road to Mount Trebevic very

1 well, but I don't see that it looks even close to that, and the separation

2 lines went along the road to Mount Trebevic.

3 I have to answer that behind the road, or if I take a 180 degree

4 turn, I can see the mountains are ever higher. Those are the slopes of

5 Mount Trebevic which are quite high. So if you look -- if you turn around

6 by 180 degrees, and if you look in that direction from the road, you will

7 see those -- the high mountain; that is Mount Trebevic.

8 Q. And my question to you, sir, was: Wasn't the witness, the Defence

9 witness who preceded you, correct when he said that that even-- whoever

10 controlled this ground, that that even higher ground, what you call the

11 slopes of Mount Trebevic, was controlled by the SRK; and, as the preceding

12 witness said, it's our territory, way up above the road, and that's where

13 the view was not a bit better but considerably better. And those are

14 direct quotations from his testimony. Wasn't he right in what he

15 testified to, Mr. Katic?

16 A. You're now quoting to me what the previous witness had said, and I

17 said that if you turn by 180 degrees from the site where this photograph

18 was taken, there is higher ground ahead. And probably if you were to

19 climb up to much higher ground than where this photograph was taken, you

20 would be able to see the city even better.

21 Q. And that higher ground, from which you can see the city even

22 better, was under the control of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, wasn't it?

23 A. All the locations from the site, and if you take this turn of 180

24 degrees and you go in that direction, they were held -- all these areas

25 were held by Sarajevo-Romanija Corps of the VRS, and there were many

1 villages there that were part of Republika Srpska. I showed you where the

2 separation line was, and the military and the local residents who were

3 able to move freely behind the separation lines. They were able to tend

4 their cattle, gather hazelnuts. I really don't know why you're asking me

5 all these question, because I don't know what the previous witness had

6 testified.

7 Q. Well, I tell you what, then let's forget about the previous

8 witness. But it is your testimony that the higher ground above the road,

9 the higher ground above the point where this photograph, was taken was

10 under the control of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps? Just yes or no,

11 Mr. Katic, and then we'll move on.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay.

14 MR. DOCHERTY: Could I tender this photograph shall please,

15 Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

17 THE REGISTRAR: As P753, Your Honours.

18 MR. DOCHERTY:

19 Q. Mr. Katic, during your examination-in-chief, there was some

20 testimony about the kinds of weapons that were available to the army of

21 Republika Srpska in the area of Grbavica. Do you remember that testimony,

22 the questions from Mr. Tapuskovic, the answers that you gave?

23 A. I do.

24 Q. And I'll characterise that testimony that -- would it be fair to

25 say that you asserted that only light infantry weapons, semi-automatic and

1 single-shot weapons, were available in Grbavica?

2 A. No. I said that at Grbavica there had been no heavy weapons, only

3 automatic and semi-automatic weapons were used, and there were three or

4 four armoured personnel carriers and anti-aircraft guns were mounted on

5 those vehicles, and I think that there was also a 20 millimetre gun

6 mounted on them.

7 Q. A 20-millimetre gun can be used as an anti-aircraft weapon. Am I

8 right?

9 A. Well, I said that there was an anti-aircraft gun, machine-gun

10 mounted on those carriers, and it can be used to target aeroplanes.

11 Q. And anti-aircraft guns of that sort can also be lowered to fire

12 horizontally, and they're not meant to be used that way, but they can be

13 used against people, vehicles, and buildings; correct?

14 A. Well, probably they can be used that way.

15 Q. And the 20-millimetre anti-aircraft guns that have you seen, you

16 know that they can come as a single barrel, a double barrel, or even a

17 triple barreled weapon; is that correct.

18 A. I think they can, yes, but that is immaterial, whether you have a

19 one, two, or three barrels.

20 Q. Well, regardless of whether it is material or immaterial, the

21 answer would be yes, they do some in those different configurations. Yes?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And isn't it also true, Mr. Katic, that there were both

24 60-millimetre and 82 millimetre mortars in Grbavica under the control of

25 the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps throughout the time of the armed conflict?

1 A. There were no such mortars at Grbavica.

2 Q. Isn't it also true that over and above mortars, there were tanks

3 in Grbavica? And I'm not confusing them with armoured personnel carriers;

4 I mean, tanks in Grbavica.

5 A. When I became the president at Grbavica, I did not see any tanks

6 at Grbavica.

7 Q. Wasn't there, for example, a tank parked -- well, first of all,

8 there is a street in Grbavica called Lenjinova Street; is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And wasn't there, throughout much of the armed conflict, a tank

11 parked in Lenjinova Street, which occasionally came out and fire add few

12 rounds towards the Bosnian side?

13 A. I don't know about that, and I did not see this tank.

14 MR. DOCHERTY: Could we please see Prosecution Exhibit 33, please.

15 Q. And if you want to just take a moment, Mr. Katic. First of all,

16 have you seen this document before?

17 A. Can we enlarge it a bit?

18 Q. There we are, and just before -- this is addressed to

19 Major-General Dragomir Milosevic; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Dated 8th of June, 1995?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. DOCHERTY: And now if with he could scroll up past the address

24 so that the text is fully displayed.

25 Q. Mr. Katic, if you haven't seen it before, I'll just ask you to

1 take a moment and read those two paragraphs to yourself, and then I'll

2 have a question about it.

3 A. I haven't seen this text before, so please give me a minute to

4 read it.

5 Q. Certainly.

6 A. I've read it.

7 Q. All right. And you understand that the person who wrote this

8 letter --

9 MR. DOCHERTY: And if we could, sir, just scroll down and see the

10 signature.

11 Q. -- is an UNPROFOR sector commander, "H. Gobillard." Do you see

12 that?

13 A. I do.

14 Q. And did you read in the text that this is a protest of an attack

15 all along the line, on the 8th of June, 1995, with both artillery and

16 tanks? Did you read that part?

17 A. I have.

18 Q. And in particular, do you see the -- in the first paragraph, about

19 five or six -- about the middle of the paragraph, one tank even fired from

20 inside Grbavica and incendiary rounds were also observed?

21 Do you see the sentence, sir?

22 A. I do see.

23 Q. Do you accept there were in fact tanks in Grbavica and that they

24 were used to shell the Bosnian side of the Miljacka river, having seen

25 this document?

1 A. I'm saying this again. This is the 8th of June, 1995, when

2 offensives started from the side of the Bosnia-Herzegovina army. At that

3 time, as the president at Grbavica, I did not know who was shooting, how

4 they were shooting. At that period, and this seems to be the 8th of June,

5 everything was on fire. As they say in our language, heaven and earth was

6 burning, but I was not aware that we had tanks at Grbavica, especially

7 after the decision from 1994 about the grouping of heavy weaponry on

8 certain locations outside the city of Sarajevo.

9 Q. Sir, the question I asked you was: Whether having seen this

10 document, you accept that the SRK had tanks in Grbavica and that those

11 tanks were used to fire on the Bosnian side of the Miljacka river?

12 A. I do not.

13 Q. All right. And we'll get to the question of the total exclusion

14 zone in a few minutes.

15 You understand, Mr. Katic, that this letter was written by a

16 Major-General within UNPROFOR?

17 A. I understand.

18 Q. You understand that it was written to, addressed to major-general

19 Dragomir Milosevic?

20 A. I understand.

21 Q. You understand that this French general would not send letters

22 such as this to people who were unable to do something about the

23 situation, which the French general was protesting against?

24 A. Well, I cannot go into such details as to whether what the French

25 major-general is writing is true. I keep saying that I don't know and I

1 don't believe that there was one or more tanks at Grbavica at the time. I

2 did not leave my office at the time to see if it was a tank firing, an

3 APC, or any other kind of weapon, or from which side.

4 Q. All right. So the answer is, if I can characterise it, that you

5 don't accept, because you don't know. You're not denying it. Is that

6 fair?

7 A. Well, I'm denying it because I don't know whether one or another

8 weapon was fired from. If the major-general from France says that he saw

9 it, I cannot say what he saw. I'm claiming, though, that there were no

10 tanks in Grbavica.

11 Q. Here's the difficulty I'm having, Mr. Katic, and maybe you can

12 help me with it. In your direct examination, you were quite emphatic that

13 there were no happy weapons in Grbavica. There were automatic and

14 semi-automatic infantry weapons only. And now when shown this document,

15 you seem to be saying that you don't know, because you were in your office

16 all the time, and so you don't know what weapons there were in Grbavica.

17 I see those two answers as not the same, but maybe I'm misunderstanding

18 you; and if I am, could be help me out and clarify that, please?

19 A. I'm telling you again. I saw APCs in Grbavica and I saw them in

20 use. As far as tanks are concerned, in the period when I was in Grbavica,

21 there were none. I didn't see any. I think I was clear. A tank, though,

22 could have been brought, if such a possibility existed, within an hour

23 from Lukavica, and it could have then been brought out again, but I

24 wouldn't know that. In the time that I was at Grbavica, there were no

25 tanks.

1 Q. And 60- and 82-millimetre mortars could also have been brought

2 within an hour and used; and because you were in your office a lot, you

3 wouldn't have known that either. Is that correct?

4 A. It's correct that I didn't know that, but I claim that mortars

5 were not brought to Grbavica to fire at Sarajevo.

6 Q. Even though you were in your office quite a bit and, therefore,

7 can't really say whether or not tanks were brought forward, you will still

8 insist on denying that mortars were brought forward. Am I understanding

9 you correctly, Mr. Katic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. It's a fact, isn't it, Mr. Katic, that you're not really in a

12 position to say whether there were heavy weapons or not in Grbavica.

13 A. I have said what kind of weapons existed at Grbavica.

14 Q. I tell you what? Let move to the next topic, because I sense that

15 we're sort of going around in a circle here.

16 Again, you know the city of Sarajevo; and, in particular, you know

17 Grbavica quite well, because it's the area where you lived and it's the

18 area for which you had a certain level of political responsibility

19 throughout the armed conflict. So you do know Grbavica, which is a

20 municipality of the Novo Sarajevo; correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Across the Miljacka river from Grbavica is a neighbourhood known

23 as Marindvor; is that correct? That's where the Holiday Inn stands, the

24 Faculty of Philosophy, the Museum of the Revolution. Do you know the area

25 to which I'm referring?

1 A. I understand.

2 Q. And during your time living in Sarajevo, have you ridden the tram

3 that goes along the street in front of the Holiday Inn?

4 A. I did.

5 Q. And you know that either right in front of the Holiday Inn or a

6 little bit to one side or the other, there is an S-curve in the tram

7 tracks, isn't there?

8 I'm sorry. You have to answer with words, because the court

9 reporter can't take down a head nod. I know what you mean, but you have

10 to say it?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. Okay. Thank you. When you're riding that tram, in order to

13 negotiate that S-curve, the tram has to go pretty slowly, doesn't it, so

14 as not to jump off the rails?

15 A. The tram moved in Sarajevo at a speed of about 30 kilometres an

16 hour; and in that section about which you are asking me, it's normal that

17 it had to slow down because it was crossing from one side of the street to

18 another. And, of course, if you are taking -- negotiating a bend, you

19 have to slow down.

20 Q. And just a few points about geography at the Grbavica-Marindvor

21 area. The city of Sarajevo at that point is a bit narrower than it is at

22 other points, and any traffic going east and west through that area would

23 have been exposed to fire from any snipers that there might have been in

24 Grbavica. True?

25 A. I have already said that I didn't see snipers from either side;

1 and specifically speaking about Grbavica, that area cannot be targeted

2 because it's linked to the line Kovacici-Marindvor. It's lower

3 downstream.

4 Q. Mr. Katic, we're going to talk in a few minutes about whether

5 there were snipers in Grbavica. I know what you have testified to on that

6 point. My question for now is simply: Traffic moving east or west

7 through the city of Sarajevo, when it passes through the Marindvor area,

8 and let me just be very clear, would have been exposed to sniper fire from

9 Grbavica had there been snipers in Grbavica.

10 A. It could have been exposed to fire from Kovacici, but not sniper

11 fire.

12 Q. I tell you what? Let's take a look, please, at an aerial

13 photograph, 65 ter number 02825.

14 Do you see that in front of you, Mr. Katic?

15 A. I do.

16 Q. Maybe just to orient yourself, you could find the Faculty of

17 Philosophy, the museum, and then there's a particular high-rise in

18 Grbavica called the Metalka building; and I think if you locate those

19 three points, we'll then be ready to proceed with some questions.

20 A. I see the Faculty of Philosophy and I see the museum; and on the

21 other side, I see Holiday Inn and the buildings in the municipality of

22 Serbian Novo Sarajevo, but I keep telling you that this place is called

23 Kovacici, not Grbavica. Grbavica would be to the right from the area

24 covered by this photograph, and I have been telling you for a while that

25 it is Kovacici.

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: If you're going to ask questions about these

2 three locations, maybe it's as well that he marked them.

3 MR. DOCHERTY: That was going to be next.

4 Q. I'm going to ask you to make some marks on this photograph, so we

5 all understand and we're all on the same page. Would you mark the Faculty

6 of Philosophy with an F, please.

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. Would you mark the museum with a M, please.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. Would you mark the Holiday Inn - excuse me - with HI, for the

11 English "Holiday Inn."

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. And would you mark the Metalka building -- well, we've used M, so

14 let's just use B for the English word "building."

15 A. Which letter?

16 Q. B, please.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. And are you sure that you've marked the correct building for

19 Metalka? And I'm talking about the building that's got the Metalka home

20 appliance shop on the ground floor, from whence it gets the name Metalka.

21 A. I marked it properly.

22 Q. Okay. Now, and does the building that you've marked with a B,

23 does that extend then to the viewer's left? In other words, have you

24 marked the right side of the building? Right-hand side of the building,

25 excuse me.

1 A. Here on the ground floor, there is a shop; and in this building

2 here, Invest Bank was located.

3 Q. Let me make this clear. There's a shop on the ground floor of

4 which building, the building with the B or the building to its left?

5 A. With a B.

6 Q. All right. And the Invest Bank is in the building with the B or

7 the building to its left?

8 A. In the left building.

9 Q. And are both the building with the B and the building to its left

10 in territory -- well, do you see the Miljacka river in this photograph or

11 at least the trees on either bank of the Miljacka river?

12 A. I see that.

13 Q. Could you draw a line along the Miljacka, please.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. That line that you have just drawn is also the line separating the

16 two warring factions during the armed conflict, isn't it, with the army of

17 Republika Srpska to the top of the photograph and the army of

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina to the bottom of the photograph; correct?

19 A. The separation line went along the Miljacka river; in other words,

20 of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was on this side, and the VRS with the

21 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps on the other side.

22 Q. All right. And just because when you saw "this side," and "that

23 side," it doesn't really make a good record, bear with me, I have to ask a

24 couple of clarifying questions. When you say that the army of Republika

25 Srpska was on this side, is that the side that's got the B building on

1 it?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And last question on this topic: When you say that the army of

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina had that side, you're talking about the buildings with

5 the F, the M, and the HI; correct?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Let me try again. The army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, which side

8 of the river did they have?

9 A. On the right-hand side, downstream, on the right-hand side of the

10 Miljacka river; not in the F and M buildings, but the first buildings next

11 to Miljacka river, in Vilsonova Street. That's the name.

12 Q. Mr. Katic, I think we're miscommunicating. You're not saying that

13 the army of the Republika Srpska controlled the Holiday Inn during the

14 armed conflict, are you?

15 A. What did you say? I did not understand the question. I'm sorry.

16 Q. And I didn't understand your answer, so let's just take a minute

17 and see if we can straighten this out.

18 Look at the side of the river that has got the F building, the M

19 building, and the HI building, and then answer this question: During the

20 armed conflict, which army controlled the area with those buildings on

21 it?

22 A. The army of Bosnia and Herzegovina had control of these buildings.

23 Q. Okay. Thank you. I apologise for miscommunication.

24 A. However, may I just answer?

25 Q. Well, Mr. Katic, with all respect, I think you have answered. I

1 wonder if we could move on.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let me hear the witness.

3 What did you want to say, Witness?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, Presiding

5 Judge.

6 The troops of the BH army were not at the separation line located

7 in those buildings: F, M, or HI. It was right next to the red line that

8 I drew on the picture. The troops were on this side but not in the

9 buildings, as I marked them.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: But you would say that they still controlled

11 those buildings?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All of this, all of this territory

13 on the picture, was under the control of the BH army; however, the

14 separation line is something different. It is as I indicated. The VRS

15 was in the B building; and in the building to the left of B, which was

16 Invest Bank, the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina was along the red line. I

17 even know which unit. It was King Tvrtko Battalion.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think then I understand you to be saying that

19 the army of the ABiH was physically located near to the line that you have

20 indicated, but they controlled the entire area, including the areas in

21 which we find the buildings marked F, M, and HI.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Well, let us move on.

24 MR. DOCHERTY:

25 Q. Mr. Katic, it is true, is it not, that the S-curve in the tram

1 line that you testified about a few minutes ago is in front of the Holiday

2 Inn, the building marked HI; correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And it is true, is it not, that if there were snipers in the

5 building marked B or in the building to its left, they could fire down

6 that street, which we see going up and down in the photograph, towards the

7 area of the S-curve, couldn't they?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. And --

10 A. But if I may. May I?

11 It was possible to shoot, if there were any snipers, from F to B

12 as well; that is, it was possible to shoot from the red line at B.

13 Q. Okay. And you knew which unit of the army of Bosnia and

14 Herzegovina was on the line in this position, and so I take it you also

15 know that, other than those troops, there were no military targets down

16 near the Holiday Inn, the faculty, or the museum; that is to say, no troop

17 concentrations, no artillery, no ammunition depots, so forth and so on?

18 A. Are you referring to the side under the control of the BH army,

19 around Holiday Inn or the Faculty of Philosophy?

20 Q. I'm referring to a shot from the B building or the building to its

21 left down the street into a tram on the S-curve.

22 A. You keep telling me that it was possible to shoot at a tram. To

23 the right of Holiday Inn, although it's not shown in the photograph, there

24 are buildings of the former Marshal Tito Barracks where members of the BH

25 army were billeted.

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: But we are going to stop now, because it's time

2 for the break.

3 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Docherty.

6 MR. DOCHERTY: Thank you, Mr. President.

7 Q. Mr. Katic, just before the break, we were talking about the

8 photograph that's on the screen in front of you, and I believe, at one

9 point, you testified that it would be possible to shoot from the building

10 marked F to the building marked B. Do you remember offering that

11 observation?

12 A. I do.

13 Q. Do you also remember testifying that there were no soldiers in the

14 building marked F, that they were on the confrontation line marked by the

15 red line along the Miljacka river?

16 A. I didn't say that there were no troops on the building, either F

17 or M building, but these buildings were under the control of the BH army;

18 and at any time, depending on the need, soldiers could come and be

19 deployed on F or M or HI building.

20 Q. You also, right before the break, when I asked about military

21 targets in the area, mentioned the Marshal Tito Barracks. Do you remember

22 giving that answer, sir?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, the Marshal Tito Barracks are out of the picture to the

25 viewer's right; correct? In other words, you look at the picture and the

1 Tito Barracks would be to your right?

2 A. To the right, below the Holiday Inn hotel.

3 Q. And I don't know the precise distance, but would you agree that

4 the Marshal Tito Barracks would be several hundred metres away from what

5 we are looking at in this photograph?

6 A. The Marshal Tito Barracks is below, to the right, of this

7 photograph at a distance of about 500 metres; and, immediately, the

8 beginning of the barracks, below Holiday Inn, is about 100 metres, perhaps

9 even less.

10 Q. All right. Have you had opportunity, before coming here to

11 testify, to look at the amended indictment in this case?

12 A. I have never seen the indictment, neither the original nor the

13 amended one.

14 Q. Would you have any reason to quarrel with me if I told you that

15 the amended indictment alleges five specific instances of shooting,

16 sniping trams in the area of the S-curve?

17 You look puzzled. Do you need me to repeat the question?

18 A. Can you please repeat the question?

19 Q. You say you have not read the amended indictment, and I'm asking

20 you if you will accept that the amended indictment alleges five specific

21 incidents of sniping on trams in front of the Holiday Inn.

22 A. I don't know. Among other things, if that's one of the counts in

23 the indictment, I haven't read it. I don't know.

24 Q. Okay. The reason I ask the question is this: If there were five

25 trams shot at different times in front of the Holiday Inn, do I take it

1 from your earlier answer that your view would be that that was all

2 shooting at the Marshal Tito Barracks and missing and every time hitting a

3 tram in the S-curve?

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic has a point.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness is

6 again asked to offer an opinion.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, no. He's just asked to clarify the evidence

8 that he has given; and he's specifically asked to say that when the

9 indictment alleges that the tram was hit in the S-curve, is he saying that

10 the intention was to hit the Marshal Tito Barracks and that the tram was

11 mistakenly hit.

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we are yet to

13 establish how this happens and what witness knows about this. If the

14 witness says that he said nothing about it, then I don't understand why

15 the Prosecutor is asking this question.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't understand the objection because the

17 witness has given evidence, as I understand it, that the Marshal Tito

18 Barracks is about 500 metres away from the area of the Holiday Inn, but

19 that it begins just about 100 metres from the Holiday Inn.

20 Is that right?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour, Presiding

22 Judge, that the barracks is about 100 metres from Holiday Inn, and it

23 begins on the left -- on the right-hand side of this photograph.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can you answer the question which counsel was

25 asking you?

1 Just repeat the question, Mr. Docherty.

2 MR. DOCHERTY: Yes, Mr. President.

3 Q. Mr. Katic, right before the break, I asked you about the presence

4 of military targets in the -- in the Holiday Inn area, and you offered in

5 response the Marshal Tito Barracks. And as Mr. President has said, I'm

6 trying to clarify that answer. If trams were hit by sniper fire in the

7 S-curve, is it your evidence that this was the result of firing at the

8 Tito Barracks but missing and hitting a tram by mistake.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is precisely

12 the problem. , Again, the question is "if" and/or "whether." The Court

13 hasn't yet established whether the tram was hit at this location, and we

14 are now, again, having a hypothesis put to the witness, and I think that

15 this is not appropriate for cross-examination, although it can be wide.

16 But in view of this hypothesis, I believe that this question is

17 inappropriate.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: But has the witness not already testified about

19 firing in that area? I believe he has.

20 I consult my colleagues.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber rules that in the context of the

23 evidence that the witness has already given about firing in that area and

24 snipers in that area and the positions of snipers, he should answer the

25 question asked.

1 Mr. Tapuskovic.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] With all due respect,

3 Mr. President, Your Honour, Judge Robinson, never before during this

4 testimony did the witness mention any knowledge about sniping, either

5 coming from the VRS or the BH army. He never said that he knew anything

6 about sniping. He even said -- he spoke about rifle shots, that's true;

7 and if he is being asked about that, I have no objection.

8 But he did not mention sniping once. He even said that he knew

9 whether there was snipers on the side of the BH army.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: There is a sufficient factual evidential basis

11 for the question, and I have ruled that he is to answer the question.

12 MR. DOCHERTY:

13 Q. After all that, do you remember the question, or shall I ask it

14 again?

15 A. I remember the question. You don't need to put it to me again. I

16 will try to give you an answer.

17 I said where the barracks was. You claim that a tram was hit, but

18 what I can say is that at the moment there could have been, in front of

19 Holiday Inn, a moveable vehicle with a mortar mounted on it or a

20 machine-gun. It was possible from the building B, or from the building to

21 the left of building B, to observe a military target and between the

22 buildings F and M.

23 Q. Last question on this point, and then we'll move on.

24 From that last answer, which now gets into mobile mortars rather

25 than the Marshal Tito Barracks, are you still asserting that the Marshal

1 Tito Barracks -- that missing the Marshal Tito Barracks was a reason for

2 hitting a tram, or are you withdrawing that?

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, he hasn't asserted that, as far as I know.

4 I believe you are trying to elicit that from him, but he hasn't really

5 said so.

6 MR. DOCHERTY:

7 Q. In any event, let me withdraw that question. Mr. Katic, whether

8 shooting at the Marshal Tito Barracks and missing -- excuse me. Whether

9 shooting at the Marshal Tito Barracks and missing or whether this mobile

10 mortar that you talk about was shuttling around in the area south-west,

11 somebody was shooting at it; correct? And as you said, I believe, the

12 building marked B offers a good vantage point on to it, doesn't it?

13 A. Yes, but also from the F and the M in the opposite direction.

14 Q. And are you aware that UNPROFOR troops were frequently stationed

15 at the intersection of that street that runs up and down in the photograph

16 and the street that runs left and right in the photograph, and are you

17 aware that there are no UNPROFOR documents indicating the -- indicating a

18 mobile mortar operating in that area?

19 A. What I know about the UNPROFOR presence in this area was something

20 that I learned from the media. I used to watch evening news and I saw

21 what was happening in the territory of the city of Sarajevo, but I didn't

22 go over there to see where they were precisely positioned.

23 Q. Did you ever see a mobile mortar in that area?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did you ever talk to anyone who saw a mobile mortar in that area

1 or see an official report of a mobile mortar in that area?

2 A. I talked to the people who had left Sarajevo following the

3 conflict, or rather, the end of the war, or who had left across the

4 Brotherhood and Unity bridge. They used to tell me about these mobile

5 vehicles with weapons mounted on them.

6 Q. Did they tell you that these mobile vehicles with weapons mounted

7 on them had been operating in this area, in the photograph in front of

8 you?

9 A. They didn't mention specific locations, but, rather, the territory

10 of Sarajevo under the control of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina;

11 therefore, I am not able to say that these people talked to me

12 specifically about this photograph.

13 MR. DOCHERTY: Could I tendered this photograph, please,

14 Mr. President, but could it remain on the screen for a few more minutes.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's admitted.

16 THE REGISTRAR: As P754, Your Honours.

17 MR. DOCHERTY:

18 Q. Mr. Katic, maybe it would help if we talked about a specific case.

19 Are you aware of a shooting of a mother and child at the

20 intersection of those two streets on 18th November 1994. The mother was

21 named Dzenana Sokolovic; the boy was Nermin Divovic.

22 A. I'm not aware of that, and I don't know anything about it.

23 Q. All right. Then we'll move on.

24 You testified, in your evidence in-chief, that although had you

25 seen men with rifles in Grbavica going in and out of the buildings, they

1 did not have telescopic sights; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I'm going to put to you something that was in the Judgement in the

4 case of Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic, and it's found at paragraph

5 238, page 86 of the English version of the Trial Chamber's Judgement. And

6 it's concerning the testimony of a man named Van Lynden, Aernout Van

7 Lynden, who is a Dutch English journalist.

8 "Van Lynden recounted that in late November 1993 the Bosnian Serb

9 Presidency permitted him to visit apartment blocks in Grbavica, close to

10 the Miljacka river, where he observed front line sniping positions. He

11 was taken to rooms" --

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, yes.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Van Lynden was

14 supposed to come as a witness for the Prosecution here, but he didn't

15 appear. I believe that this witness cannot be put with something that

16 relates to a different case, because no cross-examination of Van Lynden

17 was possible here in order for to us check. We had some serious questions

18 for Witness Van Lynden. He is mentioned very often in this judgement, and

19 we have proof but I'm not going to discuss this. He hasn't been examined

20 or cross-examined here and, therefore, I believe that this putting

21 statements from a different case is inadmissible to the witness, which

22 relates to the witness that was not examined in the course of the

23 proceedings.

24 This is my general objection.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: My initial response is the same as the one I gave

1 when you jumped up prematurely. I'd like to hear the question before I

2 make a ruling.

3 So I'd like counsel to conclude the citation; and then when we

4 hear the question which he has asked, we'll consider it. We'll consider

5 the objection that you have made.

6 MR. DOCHERTY:

7 Q. Just going on with the quotation from paragraph 238: "He described

8 the rifles as being long barrelled and as having telescopic sights."

9 Does that cause you to rethink your earlier answer about the

10 presence of sniper rifles with telescopic sights in the high-rise

11 buildings in Grbavica?

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: What period did that evidence cover,

13 Mr. Docherty?

14 MR. DOCHERTY: The visit was late September 1992.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: And what period are you questioning the witness

16 in relation to?

17 MR. DOCHERTY: Initially, that same period. Obviously, I have

18 some follow-on questions, but they don't concern Mr. Van Lynden. But this

19 is a witness who has testified about the entirety of the armed conflict,

20 including even events that occurred in Sarajevo before the outbreak of the

21 armed conflict, which was his testimony concerning the events in the park

22 in Vrace.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber sees no objection to the witness

1 being asked the question posed by counsel, which is whether the passage

2 that he has cited would cause him to rethink his earlier answer about the

3 presence of sniper rifles with telescopic sights in the high-rise

4 buildings in Grbavica.

5 What you have heard Counsel just quote, would that cause you to

6 change your view, Witness? Simply, yes or no.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to give an answer.

8 Since the question was put it me whether, in 1992, in September of

9 that year, there were snipers in high-rise buildings in Grbavica, my

10 answer is I don't know, because at the time I didn't go to separation

11 lines at Grbavica and observe the troops in that period. I was at the

12 line which I described in my previous evidence.

13 MR. DOCHERTY:

14 Q. All right. Then let's discuss some evidence that does concern the

15 time that you were back as the president of the assembly of Srpsko Novo

16 Sarajevo. So I will move away from September 1992 and I will go back to

17 the 18 the of November, 1994, and I understand you have no person

18 knowledge of the alleged sniping on that date. However, I do want to draw

19 your attention to some testimony from someone who was here earlier in this

20 trial, a man named John Jordan, a former American marine, who was the

21 leader of a group of fire-fighters in Sarajevo.

22 MR. DOCHERTY: And for the record, Mr. President, I'm going to be

23 citing to transcript page 2651 of this trial, line 11, through 2652, line

24 12.

25 Q. And Mr. Jordan was asked why he had positioned a fire truck in a

1 particular position on the street that we see running up and down in this

2 photograph and gave the following answer: "The vehicle is between the

3 child and the man who killed him, straight down that street to the high

4 buildings controlled by the Bosnian Serb army."

5 My question, Mr. Katic, is: There were, in fact, I put it to you,

6 snipers, in the building marked B and in the building immediately to its

7 left, who fired upon the Marindvor area and specifically on civilians in

8 the Marindvor area?

9 A. You are claiming that those were snipers. I'm claiming that there

10 was shooting, but I don't know whether it was a sniper fire, and I assert

11 that these were not snipers. Whether they had hit this child and this

12 lady, I know nothing about this incident.

13 Q. I understand you know nothing about the incident. But if the

14 claim has are narrowed to one that there was shooting but not sniping,

15 then let's talk about some evidence of sniping versus shooting?

16 MR. DOCHERTY: And, Mr. President, I need now to discuss the

17 testimony of a protected witness. Can we move into private session.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session.

19 [Private session]

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

23 MR. DOCHERTY:

24 Q. Mr. Katic, let's try and clarify where we agree and where we

25 disagree.

1 I think we both agree that there were soldiers with rifles on the

2 VRS side of the Miljacka river; correct? I don't think there is any

3 controversy about that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You seem to be putting a lot of weight on the distinction between

6 shooting and sniping. When one shoots at something, one levels the gun,

7 sights at the target, and squeezes the trigger; correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Is only difference, in your mind, the presence or absence of the

10 telescopic sight, or is there more to it than that, this distinction you

11 seem to be making between shooting on the one hand and sniping on the

12 other hand?

13 A. If you put a telescopic sight on a semi-automatic or automatic

14 rifle, then you have a sniper. That's a what it is called. Without the

15 telescopic sights, and with it, the semi-automatic rifle or automatic

16 rifle actually function in the same way. You open fire in the same way.

17 The only reason why you put the telescopic sights is to be able to see the

18 target better. I don't know if we can agree on that.

19 Q. So just to make clear, I think the differences between us have

20 significantly narrowed. You are saying that sniping requires as

21 telescopic sight and that did you not see men with telescopic sight. Is

22 that as far as you're willing to go?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. There were, though, men with guns, rifles, on the upper floors on

25 the building marked with the B and the building to its left that's on the

1 photograph in front of us, weren't there, Maybe without telescopic sights,

2 but there were men with rifles up there?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And from those positions, could shoot down, I'll say, the natural

5 funnel formed by that up-and-down street to hit targets in front of the

6 Holiday Inn, if they chose to?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, there was --

9 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President, may I have just one moment? I just

10 need to consult about something.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

12 MR. DOCHERTY: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 Q. There was a Pakistani officer, who had served with UNPROFOR, who

14 testified here, named Muhamed Butt; and in his testimony, he stated that a

15 human being could be effectively engaged from those buildings on the VRS

16 side of the river to Marindvor with or without a telescopic sight. Do you

17 accept or reject his testimony?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And then last question on this topic, and then we'll --

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: "Yes," meaning what? "Yes," meaning that he

21 accepts that a human being could be effectively engaged from the VRS side

22 of the river with our without a telescopic sight.

23 Are you agreeing with that proposition.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I add something?

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On this picture, where this is red

4 letter D, it looks like a red letter D. It's not a marking; it just looks

5 like a red letter D. I don't know if you can see it. That's the famous

6 red building. It is divided between the Republika Srpska army and

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina army. One doorway was held by one side; the other was

8 held by the other. And, now, in order to provoke or to cause incidents,

9 it was possible to open fire from that building, too.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Yes. We hear that.

11 MR. DOCHERTY: That's fine.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honour, but I

13 do want to state that because of these incidents, in order to cause such

14 incidents, the BH army soldiers stationed at the famous red building -

15 that's what it was called in the media and was known throughout the

16 world - they could have opened fire on this location with this purpose.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: So you're saying passengers on a tram, in the S

18 area opposite the Holiday Inn, could be just as easily as readily targeted

19 by soldiers on the red building, which includes soldiers of the ABiH who

20 held one side, as they could be targeted by soldiers from the B building?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Docherty.

24 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President, with the Court's leave, that last

25 answer of the witness, I do not believe could possibly have been predicted

1 from his 65 ter summary, which says nothing concerning the red building or

2 this sort of activity; and with the Court's leave, as the Court knows,

3 when we were introducing evidence from crime base witnesses, on the

4 various, video we had a 360 degree view from ground level of the area

5 where person was shot.

6 And I want to show one of those to the witness now because I

7 believe that it will show the buildings with the B and the one to the left

8 are there and the red building is not. However, that was on the -- this

9 sheet that we sent to the Defence, but I think the reasons are

10 understandable.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that there

13 is no witness that -- that we proposed to talk about the fighting at the

14 separation line. There's -- I can't see why Mr. Docherty now says that we

15 did not include this in his summary. He spoke about the separation lines

16 at the time when he was serving as a soldier and later on in his

17 examination-in-chief. So this is what we stated in the summary.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you objecting to what Mr. Docherty is now

19 proposing to do, to show the witness this map which does not have the red

20 building.

21 Is that what you're proposing to do, Mr. Docherty.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No. No. No, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me hear from Mr. Docherty exactly what he is

24 proposing to do.

25 MR. DOCHERTY: That's exactly what I'm proposing to do.

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: So I'm asking, are you objecting to that.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No. I'm merely stating for the

3 record that the witness was supposed to talk about those topics. That's

4 why we called him, but we are not opposed to the Prosecutor using this.

5 But what Mr. Docherty had said is not really appropriate, because he

6 alleged that we did not bring this witness in order to testify about

7 combat activities. This is precisely what he was supposed to be

8 testifying about.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: I'm getting a bit confused and would like to put a

10 question just for clarification.

11 I believe that the issue is whether it is possible to hit a target

12 in the S-curve in front of the Holiday Inn from any position in the ready

13 building; is that correct?

14 MR. DOCHERTY: Yes, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE HARHOFF: And that the Prosecution now intends to show the

16 360-degrees photo circle that was taken from the crossing, in order to

17 prove or to establish that from that point you cannot see the ready

18 building. The only buildings can you see from the crossing is the Metalka

19 building and the bank building. Is that correct?

20 MR. DOCHERTY: In effect, yes, Judge Harhoff. I also think that

21 this photograph, which is on the screen, I for one would have a very

22 difficult time visualizing a shot through all of those buildings along the

23 river, into the are of the S curve.

24 JUDGE HARHOFF: But, still, since we do not know the elevation on

25 the ground on the south side of the river, it could be possible. So by

1 showing your 360-degree line of photos, we might be able to see whether or

2 not from the crossing it is possible to see the red building.

3 MR. DOCHERTY: That's why I would like to show it.

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Let's get on with it then.

5 MR. DOCHERTY: All right.

6 Ms. Bosnjakovic, could you please call up the 360 for scheduled

7 sniping incident number 13.

8 Q. Mr. Katic, do you see the still photograph that's on the screen in

9 front of you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now you can't mark on this one because it is a freeze-frame from a

12 video. So the white building on the right with the arched windows, that

13 is the museum, isn't it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. The more -- the more modern building on the left side with the

16 square windows is the Faculty of Philosophy of the University, isn't it?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And looking down that street, the trees are leafed out; but up

19 above the leaves, you can see the top storey of - different people call it

20 different things - the bank building or the Metalka building, can't you?

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we don't know the

23 number of this photograph. It hasn't been marked yet so that we can

24 perhaps use it, if necessary, later on. We might need it later on, so it

25 should be marked as a Prosecution Exhibit.

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: This is a new photograph, Mr. Docherty?

2 MR. DOCHERTY: No. It's not a new photograph, Your Honour. It's

3 not a photograph. We have frozen a video frame on screen, like using the

4 stop or a pause button on a DVD player. This is the 360-degree video from

5 scheduled sniping incident 13. We can certainly put it back up, just as

6 quickly as we did now, if the Defence wants to use it. I don't have the

7 number on my -- we need to consult a list and find the number, but we can

8 do that.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Prosecutor, we are, or I am, having some

11 concerns because I think it's a bit unfair to the Defence to show a

12 360-degree video from exactly this point, because obviously the red

13 building would be behind the Faculty of Philosophy here. So there would

14 be no direct line of sight from this point. But perhaps if we were to

15 move westwards, there might be a chance that you perhaps could see the red

16 building if you move over towards the museum. And my recollection is, but

17 I may be wrong, but didn't we have a 360-degree video taken with

18 Mrs. Sokolovic, exactly from the corner of the museum? Do you understand

19 my point?

20 MR. DOCHERTY: I understand your point. Give us a minute and

21 we'll look. It takes us a minute, but no more than that. We'll have to

22 take this off in order to do that.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 MR. DOCHERTY: We have the one you're looking for, Judge Harhoff.

25 Would you like to see it?

1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Well, my proposition is that this might be more

2 illustrative to what is the issue here, whether or not there is a direct

3 line of sight from the red building to this crossing area, to the

4 Marindvor area.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let us see it.

6 MR. DOCHERTY:

7 Q. Mr. Katic, this is a photograph that is taken on the sidewalk in

8 front of the museum; and across the road, is that the Faculty of

9 Philosophy of the University?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, we can move this left or right, as you wish, just let us

12 know. But where is -- the red building is not visibly, is it, Mr. Katic.

13 A. Well, I don't see any building, apart from the Faculty of

14 Philosophy.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am not against it

17 at all. It would be great if we could keep this photograph for later, but

18 we don't have a number for it. So how can we refer to it? How can we use

19 it in our re-examination if we don't have a number?

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, he's right. Is there a number for

21 this?

22 MR. DOCHERTY: There is a number. We're calling these up as the

23 Chamber asks. There is a list, and we can consult it and get the number

24 very quickly.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: So we'll get the number, Mr. Tapuskovic, perhaps

1 not right now, but we'll get it. It's a technical matter.

2 [Prosecution counsel confer]

3 MR. DOCHERTY: The 65 ter number, Your Honour, is 02716. That's

4 for the whole video, and any particular incident can be called up within

5 that 65 ter number.

6 Q. I apologise, Mr. Katic, but there was a lot going on. I didn't

7 hear your last -- last answer, which was: "I don't see any building,

8 apart from the Faculty of Philosophy."

9 Would you like us to move the photograph in either direction?

10 This is a 360, so if I say to move it, you'll start to see the scenery

11 rotate.

12 A. Well, right now, I can't see any other building, just the building

13 of the Faculty of Philosophy.

14 Q. Well, tell you what? Let's rotate the photograph; and if you see

15 the red building, just let us know.

16 A. I can't see any building in the territory held by the Republika

17 Srpska army on this footage.

18 Q. All right.

19 MR. DOCHERTY: Could we look then at the one I wanted to show in

20 the first place, which is number 13.

21 Actually, it is one that is 13, but a little bit to the right. So

22 let's do number 14.

23 Q. Now, again, Mr. Katic, we'll rotate it; and if you see the red

24 building, let us know.

25 A. Stop. I can see the building now.

1 Q. What building do you see?

2 A. Well, on the basis of this photograph, I cannot see whether this

3 is building D [as interpreted] or the Invest building -- Invest Bank

4 building. Building B or the bank, but it is not quite clear. Actually,

5 you have to go a little bit further to the left in order to see it

6 probably better.

7 MR. DOCHERTY: Can we rotate it little bit to the left. Stop.

8 Q. Does that help? I believe your testimony was that the building

9 you saw was either the B building or the bank building; but in any event,

10 not the red building; correct?

11 A. No, you can't see it.

12 Q. And that's because there's tall buildings obstructing the line of

13 sight from the red building to the S-curve area in front of the Holiday

14 Inn; isn't it?

15 A. I don't know exactly.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 Q. You can't shoot the S-curve area from the red building, can you,

18 Mr. Katic, because have you to shoot through the buildings in front of you

19 to do so, don't you?

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty, I'm not a very technical person.

21 Doesn't it depend on where the photograph is taken from?

22 MR. DOCHERTY: No, Your Honour, it doesn't, and that's why I'm a

23 bit sorry we went down there path; although, I notice it was of my

24 choosing. But I thought the photograph, as I said to Judge Harhoff, that

25 was originally on there that the witness had marked showed pretty clearly

1 that there were a number of tall buildings between the red building an and

2 the Marindvor area.

3 Judge Harhoff then said that it depended on elevations, and so we

4 went with this. And witness has now testified, I believe, that you can

5 see the D or the bank building - he's not sure which - but you can't see

6 the red building. That's the only point I'm trying to make.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's proceed.

8 MR. DOCHERTY:

9 Q. Mr. Katic, in your evidence in-chief, you testified about some

10 events that occurred at the beginning of the armed conflict; and, in

11 particular, I want to talk about the issue of people crossing -- civilians

12 crossing --

13 I don't believe the witness is getting a translation, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let that be attended to. We understand that

15 you're not getting any translation.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't.

17 MR. DOCHERTY:

18 Q. Are you hearing me now in Serbo-Croatian.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You testified on your evidence in-chief about some events which

21 occurred in 1992, before the outbreak of the armed conflict. I want to go

22 back to talked about question of people crossing, civilians, I should say,

23 crossing from one side of the line to the other.

24 First of all, it is true, Mr. Katic, is it not, that the area of

25 Grbavica was ethnically cleansed by the Serbian authorities in 1992?

1 A. No.

2 MR. DOCHERTY: Could we please see 65 ter number 03188.

3 Q. Mr. Katic, this is a letter from an official of the United

4 Nations, Major-General Morillon, dated October 1st of 1992 and addressed

5 to Radovan Karadzic. Have you seen this before, or do you need a minute

6 to read it?

7 A. I haven't seen it before, but I do want to read it.

8 Q. Please go ahead.

9 A. I finished.

10 Q. Okay. I want to direct your attention, sir, to the bottom of the

11 first paragraph. There's a reference there to the forced expulsion of

12 nearly 300 persons from Grbavica. Do you see where I am reading?

13 A. I see it.

14 Q. Those 300 persons were not Serb persons, were they, Mr. Katic,

15 and that's why this letter is being addressed to Dr. Karadzic?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. These 300 persons were non-Serbs who were expelled from Grbavica

18 by the Serbian authorities; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I want to show you another document concerning this incident from

21 October of 1992.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty, in the third paragraph, General

23 Morillon says, "I'm willing to believe that you are not libel in this

24 case."

25 MR. DOCHERTY: That's why I want to go to the next document.

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well.

2 MR. DOCHERTY: Before I do that, I want to tender this one.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We admit it.

4 THE REGISTRAR: As P755, Your Honours.

5 MR. DOCHERTY: Then I'd like to have displayed on the screen 65

6 ter -- I'm sorry, 65 ter 3190 [Realtime transcript read in error "31890"].

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm afraid there might be a

10 mistake about the number. Because as we marked it, it's 3190. I suppose

11 that's the number that we noted down when we were marking this document. I

12 don't know if it is correct. Without this 8.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is that so, Mr. Docherty?

14 MR. DOCHERTY: Yes. I'm not sure what 8 is being referred to,

15 but this is 65 ter 3190, and that's the document I was looking for.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let us proceed on that basis.

17 MR. DOCHERTY:

18 Q. Now, this is an United Nations report prepared by a Colonel

19 Theriault, and it is dated the 30th of September, 1992, the day before

20 General Morillon's letter; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And that indicates that United Nations officials were asked to go

23 to the Bristol Hotel, in response to reports of an incompetence occurring

24 there, and it states in the second paragraph that they confirmed that the

25 expulsion was in progress and Muslims were gathering at the Bristol Hotel;

1 correct?

2 A. That's what's written.

3 Q. And in the last paragraph on that page, about in the middle, it

4 talks about "the sounds of shelling and gun-fire could be heard from

5 inside. People were literally under panic." Is that what it says?

6 A. Let me just find it.

7 Q. Okay. It's a sentence that begins: "Sounds of shelling and

8 gun-fire ..."

9 A. I don't see this in my passage. I can't see it.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] May I be of assistance, Your

11 Honour.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Katic, if you turn to page 2,

14 on the B/C/S version, I believe it's line 4. We would have to show page 2

15 in B/C/S, line 4.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Tapuskovic.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see it. Thank you.

18 MR. DOCHERTY:

19 Q. Then could we please at the bottom of the English in any event -

20 and I don't know if there be on yet another page in the B/C/S - it

21 indicates that "writer was able to confirm that approximately 300 Muslim

22 civilians have been expelled by the Serbs during the day from the area of

23 Grbavica. 150 of them gathered at the Bristol Hotel and the remaining at

24 the assembly -- the BiH assembly building one kilometre to the east."

25 Does it also say that?

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. DOCHERTY: And could we go to the next page in English, please.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Go ahead.

4 MR. DOCHERTY: Just one moment. I don't know if -- I think we'll

5 need to go to the next page in B/C/S as well.

6 Q. And this concerns shelling of these civilians gathered at the

7 Bristol Hotel. In English, it says: "Based on the information," plus

8 sign, "observations, it appeared evident that the shelling was directed

9 towards the Muslim civilians. All of them were confined in a specific

10 area, and the Serbians were well aware of that."

11 Is that correct, sir?

12 A. I don't know whether the Serbs were aware that those people were

13 locked in one area. I told you where I was in 1992. And the previous

14 passage and the one framed now referred to events in September and October

15 1992. As I have said before, it was in 1992 and, obviously, President

16 Karadzic received this letter, and the authorities in Novo Sarajevo

17 municipality were replaced.

18 I said that on Thursday and Friday, and this evidence you are

19 presenting, Prosecutor, probably was what caused this replacement of

20 authorities. If you ask me about ethnic cleansing in Grbavica, I told you

21 it didn't happen, because throughout the war, from the time when I became

22 president in Grbavica, around 1500 non-Muslims -- non-Serbs lived in

23 Grbavica.

24 Q. But the question I was putting to you, Mr. Katic, was simply

25 whether this document -- you have seen the document, and you continue to

1 maintain that there was no cleansing in Grbavica. What word would you use

2 to describe the events set out in General Morillon's letter and in this

3 United Nations report?

4 A. You told me that Grbavica was ethnically cleansed. When you put

5 it that way, that would mean that all non-Serbs were expelled. I said

6 that was not true, because during the war 1500 non-Serbs lived in

7 Grbavica. These problems occurred in 1992 and there were expulsions, and

8 that is why the local authorities, the local government in the area of the

9 Serbian municipality of Novo Sarajevo were replaced.

10 Q. So is it your testimony that as long as the expulsion does not

11 result in the complete removal of all non-Serbs, you will not characterise

12 it as ethnic cleansing?

13 A. I cannot talk about expulsions in 1992, despite the fact that I

14 read these documents. I know that the thing happened on the other side.

15 Q. Mr. Katic, you answered a question that's a little bit different

16 than the one I asked you. The one I asked you was -- I'm trying to get

17 some clarification of your use of the verb "ethnic cleansing." Is it your

18 testimony that as long as that does not result in the complete expulsion

19 of all non-Serbs, you will decline to put the label "ethnic cleansing" on

20 the action. Is that your testimony, sir?

21 A. It is my testimony that from the moment I took over the post of

22 president, there was no ethnic cleansing on Grbavica and there was no

23 expulsion.

24 Q. But the distinction is still important, because I hear you saying

25 that as long as some non-Serbs are left, this is not ethnic cleansing; and

1 then you are saying there was no ethnic cleansing, which leaves open the

2 question of what there was. Do you see where the confusion is coming

3 from?

4 A. On the basis of these two papers referring to events in 1992, we

5 could say that non-Serb population was expelled; but if I'm telling you

6 that until the end of the war there were no more persecutions or

7 expulsions or ethnic cleanses, you have to believe me.

8 Q. Well, let's -- first of all, you left the army on the 13th of

9 March, 1993, because you had been elected president of the assembly of

10 Srpsko Novo Sarajevo, correct?

11 A. [No audible response]

12 Q. I'm just trying to get the chronology straight.

13 And before that, although not president of the assembly, you had

14 been, you had been a deputy, is that correct, but you had been able to as

15 a deputy, even while serving in the army, because that was not so

16 demanding a post as being president of the assembly; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How long had you been a deputy before you came president of the

19 assembly?

20 A. From October or maybe November 1990, until the day when I became

21 president of the assembly.

22 Q. So during the time that is referred to in these documents, you had

23 been a member of the assembly. You had not been president of the

24 assembly, I understand that, but you were a member of the assembly.

25 Correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President, could I tender this document into

3 evidence, please.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

5 THE REGISTRAR: As P756, Your Honours.

6 MR. DOCHERTY: And the next document I would like to show the

7 witness is 65 ter number 01382.

8 Could we just double-check this is 01382? Okay.

9 Oh, I apologise. I read it wrong. 03182.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This one is not the right one

11 either.

12 MR. DOCHERTY:

13 Q. No. This is the document I want, Mr. Katic.

14 Mr. Katic, this document, I'll just read off the title and the

15 date: "Instructions for the organisation and operation of organs of the

16 Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina in emergency conditions,

17 Sarajevo, 19 December 1991."

18 Have I read that correctly.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Have you seen this document before?

21 A. No.

22 Q. I believe this document was circulated at different times under

23 different dates. Have you seen this document before but with a different

24 date?

25 A. No.

1 Q. Do you know a magazine called "Slobodna Bosna"?

2 A. I've heard of it. I know it.

3 Q. Have you read it?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Are you aware that this document was reprinted in Slobodna Bosna,

6 the text of this document, that is.

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. Could we look at paragraph number 4 in both English and B/C/S,

9 please.

10 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President, could I suggest that while we sort

11 this out, it's a good time for a break, so we don't consume court time.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it is time for the break.

13 We'll adjourn.

14 --- Recess taken at 12.21 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Docherty.

17 MR. DOCHERTY:

18 Q. Mr. Katic, while we were in the break, we sorted out the problem

19 we were having with the document.

20 On the screen in front of you, on the right-hand side, there is a

21 block of this document. And I'm going to read, starting up at the top,

22 and excuse me, it look like --

23 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, I'm sorry, the B/C/S page we had

24 before the Court came in is no longer the B/C/S page. There we are.

25 Thank you.

1 Q. Would you just follow along as I read in English. I'm going to

2 start at the top of the B/C/S page; and on the English page, it will be

3 the second chunk of text underneath paragraph 5. "Prepare the takeover of

4 staff, buildings, and equipment of Security Service Centres and their

5 integration with the newly established organ of the interior at the seat

6 of the centre." First question: Did I read that accurately?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Moving on, I understand that you say you have not seen this

9 document before; but in your time as a political leader in Srpsko Novo

10 Sarajevo, were in fact Security Service Centres taken over by the Serbian

11 or the Republika Srpska government in order that they could be merged into

12 a new Security Service Centre?

13 A. Before the outbreak of the conflict? Are you asking me about the

14 period before the outbreak of the conflict?

15 Q. I'm leaving the time open ended, and I'm asking you if, in fact,

16 as this document indicates, the government of Srpsko Sarajevo, in fact,

17 took over and merged the Security Service Centres, as describes in the

18 chunk of text I just read.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic has a point.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness should

21 really know what time-frame we are talking about. What's the date of this

22 document? We always so far showed the witness the time that is relevant

23 and the date, and that applied equally to the Prosecution and the Defence.

24 Can we please be told which period we're talking about.

25 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President, before the break, the cover page was

1 shown to the witness and it has a date of October 1991 -- excuse me, 19th

2 of December, 1991.

3 May the witness answer the question, Your Honour?

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Yes, go ahead.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know anything about this and

6 whether this organisation was set up. However, after reading the document

7 during the break in its entirety, I've seen that when, in 2004, I was

8 interviewed by the investigator and shown this same document, but I don't

9 know whether anything was done or carried out with regard to this

10 particular paragraph 5.

11 Q. Let me ask -- let me ask you this: During your evidence in-chief,

12 you testified that when you were the president of the assembly, you were

13 briefed by the MUP chief for east Sarajevo every morning. Do you recall

14 giving that evidence, and was that correct evidence?

15 A. Yes. In wartime conditions, we had regular early mornings to hear

16 about the situation in Novo Sarajevo municipality.

17 Q. All right. Now, during those early mornings briefings, since they

18 happened every day, I take it you got to know the MUP chief reasonably

19 well. Fair assumption on my part?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And did the MUP chief work for a merged security centre as

22 described in paragraph 5, or did he continue to work for the old Security

23 Services Centre, the old pre-war institution, before the partition of the

24 city?

25 A. He worked for the Security Services Centre of Republika Srpska

1 after 1993 when I was the president of the municipality.

2 Q. Give us an idea, if you could, Mr. Katic, give some examples of

3 topics that would be covered at this morning briefing with the MUP chief.

4 A. The first topic would be whether there had been any incidents in

5 Grbavica. When I say "incidents," that means if there were any assaults

6 amongst civilians; whether anyone broke in -- into the Mis building where

7 humanitarian aid was being distributed; and whether everything with regard

8 to everyday life was functioning properly; whether there were in the

9 burglaries, any burglarised flats, and information to that effect. So we

10 were solely focussed on civilian affairs that affected the life of

11 citizens in Grbavica.

12 Q. All right. And the reason I have been asking these questions

13 about the MUP is because during area evidence in-chief, you testified

14 about criminal activity in Grbavica, do you remember that, and in

15 particular, about criminal gangs operating in Grbavica?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you also recall in August of last year, when you met with

18 Mr. Hogan and Mr. Sachdeva, indicating that those criminal gangs were

19 brought under control by the MUP?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And, in fact, those criminal gangs were either brought into the

22 command structure, the chain of command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, or

23 they were broken up forcibly by law enforcement; correct?

24 A. Broken up forcibly.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic is on his feet.

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] He never said, and I would kindly

2 ask the Prosecutor just as I had been warned on occasions to indicate

3 exactly when these witness said that these gangs were involved in the

4 activities of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. He did mention certain things,

5 but never said that for the record, that there were gangs involved in the

6 activities of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. If that is the case, I would

7 like the Prosecutor to indicate exactly in the transcript of this

8 proceedings.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty, since you're being challenged,

10 refer us to the pages and the witness statement of the -- this is a

11 statement taken by the Prosecutor.

12 MR. DOCHERTY: This is a statement taken in August of 2006. It

13 was reduced to an information report, and Mr. Tapuskovic has

14 misunderstood. I'm not saying that there were criminal gangs involved in

15 the operation of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. I am saying that the

16 opposite. I am saying that they were not involved. I am rebutting a

17 claim that there were rogue elements operating in Grbavica. So I can't

18 respond to that.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did follow that, Mr. Tapuskovic?

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I really cannot check the English

21 version. I understand in B/C/S that it was said twice that those gangs

22 were involved in the activities of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

23 If Mr. Docherty insists that this is not what was said, then I

24 have no objection.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Proceed.

1 MR. DOCHERTY:

2 Q. So what I'm saying, Mr. Katic, is that these gangs were brought

3 under control by the MUP; is that correct?

4 A. Those who were not gangs of large proportions. Those were

5 individuals. We specifically had problems with a couple of people who had

6 killed the president of the executive committee on the 25th of April,

7 1994. They also killed a company commander. That is when MUP got

8 involved, arrested the first man who killed the president of the executive

9 committee in his office at his workplace; and during the arrest of the

10 second person who did not want to surrender, members of the MUP shot him

11 dead.

12 There were such individuals. But with more stringent measures

13 applied by the MUP, this ebbed away. There were no incidents involving

14 seizure of humanitarian aid from the premises where it was being

15 distributed, nor assaults on civilians irrespective of their ethnicity.

16 Q. So the -- going on from that, you also testified in your evidence

17 in-chief and --

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: And, Mr. President, this is transcript 6031,

19 lines 10 through 15.

20 Q. You also testified that from time to time utilities, specifically

21 electricity, needed to be repaired, and that repairmen from both sides,

22 together with UNPROFOR, would make sure that there were joint

23 interventions in order that no one got hurt during the repair of the

24 electricity lines. Do you remember that, sir.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And so that would involve, would it not, arranging a temporary

2 cease-fire in order that this electrical repair work could be done without

3 risk to the repair personnel; correct?

4 A. That's correct. But, particularly, in 1994, there was almost

5 constant cease-fire in Grbavica, in cooperation. When representatives of

6 UNPROFOR and the electric company on both sides and also with

7 representatives of the gas or water works companies, it was agreed to have

8 this repair work done by jointly formed work details, and this practice

9 was pursued in 1994 and 1994, all the way up to the time of the Dayton

10 Accords.

11 Q. All right. But this would also require - correct me if I'm

12 wrong - would also require that the shooting stop in order that these

13 joint work details don't get hurt; correct?

14 A. That was the final security measure that had to be taken pursuant

15 to these agreements.

16 Q. And it was possible for the barracks -- for the Sarajevo-Romanija

17 Corps command to issue orders that this fire stop in order that the joint

18 work detail could carry out its job, and these orders would be

19 implemented; correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Last question regarding the police or the MUP.

22 MR. DOCHERTY: And if we could see please 65 ter number -- first,

23 could we tender the document that is on the screen, and then have I

24 another document.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.

1 THE REGISTRAR: As P757, Your Honours.

2 MR. DOCHERTY: And the next document is 65 ter number 03187.

3 We'll take a look at the cover page, and then move to paragraph number 6.

4 And, Your Honour, this is the document which Mr. Tapuskovic had an

5 objection at the close of the day on Friday.

6 Q. All right. Mr. Katic, on the screen in front of you is a document

7 from the Crisis Staff of the Serbian municipality of Novo Sarajevo. It's

8 dated November the -- I am sorry, 5th of June of 1992. And I know have

9 you testified that you were not a member of the Crisis Staff, but you have

10 also testified about some level of familiarity with the MUP and with the

11 police, and that is what I want to ask you about in this document.

12 First of all, does it appear to be an authentic document from the

13 Crisis Staff of Srpsko Novo Sarajevo?

14 A. Yes, it does.

15 MR. DOCHERTY: Could we now look at paragraph numbered 6 in both

16 the English and the B/C/S versions, please.

17 Q. Under paragraph 6, there are three blocks of text. I'm really

18 only interested in the top one: "Citizens of all nationalities assemble

19 frequently, especially in Grbavica, and our public attitude is very

20 correct. We appoint a head of every building who is responsible for the

21 situation in his building and for all the information about the occupants.

22 Secretly, the police apply the usual procedure to people who were engaged

23 in military activities against us."

24 My first question, Mr. Katic, is whether I read that correctly?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. In your meetings with the MUP chief every morning, while you were

2 president of the assembly, did he enlighten you as to what is meant by

3 "the usual procedures"?

4 A. The MUP chief, during the time when I was the president, knew

5 nothing about it, just like I didn't.

6 Q. So you don't know what these "usual procedures" are that are

7 applied in secret, even though "our public attitude is very correct"?

8 A. Well, what I see here was written by the Crisis Staff of the

9 Serbian municipality of Novo Sarajevo. I wasn't a member of either the

10 municipal committee or the Crisis Staff of Novo Sarajevo municipality;

11 therefore, I don't know details about this. I never went there or took

12 part in the Crisis Staff meetings.

13 Q. I understand that you were never a member of the Crisis Staff and

14 I understand you did not go to Crisis Staff meetings, but you have

15 testified to quite a level of familiarity with the MUP, and that is why I

16 asked you the question.

17 But you do not know what the usual methods are?

18 A. Ne. [No interpretation]

19 Q. I have one other document I would like to show you with concern of

20 the treatment of civilians in the Grbavica area?

21 MR. DOCHERTY: And so, once again, Mr. President, can I tender the

22 document that is on the screen, and then I will have another document to

23 call up.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.

25 THE REGISTRAR: As P758, Your Honours.

1 MR. DOCHERTY: And the last document is actually a Defence

2 exhibit. It was put into evidence. The document identification number

3 was DD00-3213.

4 Q. Do you remember this document, Mr. Katic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, this was presented during your evidence in-chief, and it was

7 about the shooting of a woman who was apparently trying to cross the

8 lines. I have a few questions about this document. It's in evidence, by

9 the way, as Defence Exhibit 205.

10 First of all, the event that's being described happened on the 6th

11 of April, didn't it? And this document is dated the 7th of April, and it

12 talks about "last night." Correct?

13 A. Let me just see. Yes.

14 Q. It occurred at 7.30 in the evening, because it says: "Last night

15 around 1930," which in military time is 7.30 in the evening; correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. In Sarajevo on the 6th of April, it's dark at 7.30 in the evening,

18 isn't it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And we have here a report not from the army of Republika Srpska or

21 any Serbian organ, but, rather, from the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina

22 command; correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. All right. Of the shooting of a person who was wandering around a

25 combat -- moving around, I should say, in a combat area during the dark,

1 in fact, in the no man's land between two opposing arms. Correct?

2 A. Let me just read everything.

3 Q. Sure.

4 A. I don't see no man's land mentioned anywhere.

5 Q. It's not in the document. That is my characterisation of the

6 document.

7 A. Well, I thought you were reading out from the document, and I

8 can't find "no man's land" anywhere.

9 Q. All right. Ready to go on?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So this is a shooting, accidental and tragic, but of a person who

12 was in the dark near two opposing armies; is that correct?

13 A. But it says here she wanted to cross to the other side.

14 Q. Okay. But it was in the dark; correct?

15 A. It's as dark probably as it is here at 10.00 p.m.

16 Q. And it's in the area between -- in the neighbourhood of a couple

17 of opposing armies; correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And a report has been made of the incident by the army whose

20 soldier shot the person; correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And that report doesn't say that this was faked by the Serbian

23 side or that this was part of a propaganda ploy to besmirch the army of

24 the Bosnia-Herzegovina army, does it; rather, it just sets out that this

25 happened. Is that correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. I have no further questions about that document, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: And at what stage will have you no further

4 questionings at all, Mr. Docherty.

5 MR. DOCHERTY: I'm sorry to hear you're anticipating that, Your

6 Honour.

7 I have one more topic to cover with Mr. Katic, and I think I will

8 finish today.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Then proceed.

10 MR. DOCHERTY:

11 Q. Mr. Katic, the last area I want to talk with you about is during

12 your examination-in-chief, you talked about the total exclusion zone; and,

13 in fact, you have mentioned it earlier when -- in your cross-examination

14 when we were talking about the tank in Grbavica. Do you remember these

15 bits of testimony?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. The total exclusion zone or heavy weapons exclusion zone, that was

18 put into place following the first bombing of the Markale market in

19 February of 1994; is that right?

20 A. Yes, it is.

21 Q. I'm just going to run through what this weapons exclusion zone

22 meant in practice.

23 Under this agreement, heavy weapons had to be either taken at

24 least 20 kilometres out of the town, or put into a Weapon Collection

25 Points, or guarded by UNPROFOR troops. Is my understanding of the terms

1 of this agreement the same as your understanding?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And I just want to run through some of the things that UNPROFOR

4 was doing at this time besides guarding weapons or Weapon Collection

5 Points.

6 UNPROFOR had responsibility for seeing to it that humanitarian aid

7 convoys got into the city or got to the people who needed the humanitarian

8 aid. Do you agree that that is one of UNPROFOR's tasks at this point?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. By February of 1994, UNPROFOR was also operating the Sarajevo

11 airport; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. As you mentioned, or as you testified to a few moments ago,

14 UNPROFOR was assisting in the restoration of utilities and other public

15 services; correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Would you agree that UNPROFOR was also trying to identify as

18 accurately and as quickly as possible cease-fire violations and protect

19 the civilian population as much as possible from the ravages of war?

20 A. Probably, yes.

21 Q. Would you agree that as a result of all these tasks that UNPROFOR

22 had to perform, security over these Weapon Collection Points or over

23 weapons that were under guard was often not adequate and that those

24 weapons could be and were fired at the city of Sarajevo?

25 A. No. I will say the following: The weapons that had been removed

1 and stored in area of responsibility to the south of Sarajevo, in

2 Tvrdimici and Petrovici, that's not 20 kilometres as the crow flies. But

3 in agreement with the corps, UNPROFOR, and liaison officers, those weapons

4 were stored at those sites. It was covered with netting, with branches;

5 and 24 hours a day, those points were guarded by UNPROFOR and the

6 Republika Srpska army troops.

7 And I can confirm that because I accompanied UNPROFOR members to

8 Tvrdimici and to Petrovici to verify, so that we in the civilian

9 authorities could verify what the situation was with those weapons. As

10 for the other areas around Sarajevo where heavy weapons had been removed

11 to and stored, I cannot give you any specific anticipates because I did

12 not go to those sites.

13 Q. Well, in any event, Mr. Katic, when you went out and saw the

14 weapons covered with netting and branches, was that shortly after the

15 agreement was entered into in February of 1994?

16 A. As soon as the February 1994 agreement was reached.

17 Q. I want to talk to you, Mr. Katic, about some things that happened

18 after the agreement was reached and during the dime that Dragomir

19 Milosevic had taken over command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps; that is

20 to say, after August of 1994.

21 MR. DOCHERTY: To begin with, could we see 65 ter number 01984,

22 and this is already in evidence as Prosecution Exhibit 667. And could we

23 go to the second page of the English, please.

24 Q. This is an order, Mr. Katic, from General Milosevic, and I

25 particularly draw your attention to paragraph 3, under the word "Order."

1 "Order that all heavy weapons in the 20 kilometre zone around Sarajevo be

2 camouflaged and hidden in solid buildings, move heavy weapons through the

3 20 kilometre zone only in accordance with the orders of the corps

4 commander during the night."

5 Do you see that, Mr. Katic?

6 A. Yes, I can.

7 Q. And we could go back to the first page, if you want to. This is

8 dated the 21st of August, 1994. Do you accept that or do you want to see

9 the first page with the date? Or scroll to the top of the --

10 A. Yeah, I can see that, so I accept it.

11 Q. Now, following this, Mr. Katic, are you aware, just to take a few

12 examples, of a modified air bomb launched on Hrasnica on 7th of April,

13 1995? Are you aware of that?

14 A. No.

15 Q. All right. Are you aware of a modified air bomb launched against

16 the Bosnia-Herzegovina TV tower on the 28th of June, 1995?

17 A. I don't, no.

18 Q. Earlier today I showed you a document in evidence as Prosecution

19 Exhibit 33, that was the letter from General Gobillard to General

20 Milosevic complaining about an artillery attack all along the line. When

21 I showed it to you, I was concentrating on the line about the tank in

22 Grbavica, but do you recall that Prosecution Exhibit 33 also talked about

23 artillery all along the line being used?

24 A. I remember the document. I saw that earlier on in my evidence.

25 Q. And so you are aware that after -- after February of 1994 and

1 after this order to camouflage heavy weapons, but keep them in the

2 20-kilometre exclusion zone, artillery and modified air bombs continued to

3 be used?

4 A. No, no. I don't know about that. I've already said that I had no

5 idea what kind of bombs we're talking about, modified bombs. Although, I

6 had worked at Pretis, I had never seen that, and this is what I stated to

7 the investigators last year in Sarajevo.

8 Q. Prosecution Exhibit 33, though, talks about --

9 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, I have a question.

10 MR. DOCHERTY: Oh, sorry.

11 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] You were talking of the exclusion

12 zone, in which no weapons should be used, and you are saying that these

13 modified bombs were being sent out, but you were also saying that heavy

14 weapons were being used. I do not feel that both these elements come from

15 the same document, or are they coming from the same document, sir.

16 MR. DOCHERTY: You are right, Judge Mindua. They are coming from

17 separate documents: The one about camouflages weapons, which is on the

18 screen, and then Prosecution Exhibit 33, which we talked about with the

19 witness earlier. I'm not showing it, again, just because we have seen it

20 a couple of times. I can if it would be helpful, but I just thought I

21 would ask him one or two brief questions about that document.

22 So I am putting this document on the screen, the camouflage

23 document, and then asking the witness about various uses of heavy weapons,

24 whether it is Hrasnica, the TV tower, the June protest letter from General

25 Gobillard, what have you. All dealing with heavy weapons being used in

1 Sarajevo.

2 Is that responsive to your question, Judge Mindua?

3 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes. I think it's clear now.

4 Thank you.

5 MR. DOCHERTY:

6 Q. Are you familiar, Mr. Katic, with an attack on the

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina Presidency on the 2nd of December, 1994, which

8 investigation established was done with wire-guided missiles. Are you

9 familiar with that, sir?

10 A. No. No, I don't know about that.

11 MR. DOCHERTY: If we could please see Prosecution Exhibit 329,

12 please, and, I'm sorry -- if we could see the second page, please. I

13 believe there should be an English translation, at least I've read it.

14 I'm just asking if the corresponding -- the B/C/S page

15 corresponding to the English page that's on the left could be displayed.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the two pages -- okay. Yes.

17 MR. DOCHERTY:

18 Q. Do you see here that this is another protest letter from General

19 Gobillard to General Milosevic and that one of the things that he is

20 complaining about is the launching of four missiles, including the

21 Presidency?

22 A. I can see that.

23 Q. Do you understand that it is relative straightforward to figure

24 out where a wire-guided missile was launched from because, really, all you

25 have to do is walk back along the wire until you come to the launching

1 point?

2 A. Sir, all those things that you showed to me, all those documents,

3 are of military nature; and in my evidence, I've explained that I held

4 only civilian posts. And all my dealings with the military were of a

5 humanitarian nature, and here you see four projectiles had been fired and

6 only three targets had been hit. So, immediately, you can see that the

7 first part and the latter part, it doesn't really tally. I don't know

8 what is actually meant by AT-12, AT-3. I really don't know what kind of

9 weapons we're talking about, so I can't tell you where all this had been

10 fired from and where it had been launched from.

11 Q. Mr. Katic, I understand that you were not, at the time of this

12 letter, in the armed forces. But with all respect, sir, on your direct

13 examination, when you were asked things like the location of the

14 confrontation lines around Debelo Brdo, you did not then object that this

15 called for military knowledge and that you were a civilian, did you? To

16 take one example among many I could cite.

17 A. I agree, but I don't know anything about those weapons. I spoke

18 about what I knew, infantry weapons.

19 Q. Mr. Katic, Mr. Martin Bell, a British BBC correspondent, testified

20 in this trial concerning the incident that is the subject of this letter;

21 and, in fact, there is a film of this, and I'm going show that film to you

22 now and ask whether what you observe is perhaps the result of a heavy

23 weapon.

24 MR. DOCHERTY: Ms. Bosnjakovic, can we please play Prosecution

25 Exhibit 620.

1 [Videotape played]

2 MR. DOCHERTY: We can stop now.

3 Q. That wasn't an infantry --

4 A. Fine.

5 Q. That wasn't an infantry weapon, was it, Mr. Katic?

6 A. No.

7 Q. And that building, it is the Presidency, isn't it?

8 A. Yes. That's the building of Presidency, but I don't know what

9 exploded in front of that building.

10 Q. Whatever it was, though, it was not an infantry weapon, a light

11 infantry weapon?

12 A. No. It was not an infantry weapon, but I don't know what exploded

13 there in front of that building.

14 Q. Doesn't the letter from General Gobillard tell you what exploded,

15 not in front of the building, but on the building?

16 A. With all due respect to Mr. Gobillard, when I see this footage,

17 all I can say is that was not caused by an infantry weapon. But as to

18 what it really was, I cannot tell you. Whether this was this AT-3 weapon,

19 I just don't know.

20 Q. And I understand that, and I'm not asking you for that.

21 Mr. Katic, that order that we saw from General Milosevic to hide

22 the heavy weapons, to camouflage them, to move them at night, I put it to

23 you that General Milosevic is ordering those heavy weapons to be hidden in

24 violation of the heavy weapon exclusion zone, so as to have ready to hand

25 the means needed to continue a campaign of terror against the civilians of

1 Sarajevo by deliberately them for sniping and for shelling. Do you agree

2 or disagree with the proposition I've just put to you?

3 A. I don't agree.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let me hear Mr. Tapuskovic.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] This document that has been

7 discussed now does not mention snipers anywhere. The document that the

8 witness saw, the sniper could not have been camouflaged. This is

9 something that does not exist in the document and, again, we have

10 hypothesis. This is not contained in the document.

11 MR. DOCHERTY: I don't really understand that objection. I put it

12 to the witness that the weapons were being hidden in order to continue a

13 campaign, and that campaign had to components: Deliberate targeting by

14 shelling, deliberate targeting by sniping. And I asked if this order was

15 in furtherance to that campaign, and I don't think there is anything

16 objectionable with document, even though it talks about heavy weapons

17 being in furtherance of a campaign that more generally includes other

18 means of terror.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty, I think it is perfectly proper to

20 put the witness that General Milosevic orders those heavy weapons to be

21 hidden, but the purpose of that order I don't consider to be a proper

22 matter for the witness.

23 MR. DOCHERTY: For the record, I am putting my case to the witness

24 as required by Rule 90(H) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence.

25 However, with that noted for the record, I will certainly rephrase the

1 question as Your Honour suggests.

2 Q. Mr. Katic, in that order, General Milosevic is not directing that

3 those weapons be moved 20 kilometres out of town, is he?

4 A. Well, in accordance with the order, the heavy weapons had to be

5 removed at a distance of 20 kilometres from the city. And I have already

6 said that in the Novo Sarajevo municipality, in Petrovici and Tvrdimici

7 site, this is was where it was done, and it was guarded 24 hours a day by

8 UNPROFOR and Republika Srpska army soldiers. Only the three or four

9 armoured personnel cars had not been removed from Grbavica, but they were

10 positioned behind the buildings in the doorways all the time, and they

11 controlled by UNPROFOR.

12 And let me tell you this. If those weapons, despite the 24-hour a

13 day control by UNPROFOR, was used, then those UNPROFOR members who were

14 supposed to guard them had to be held responsible. I can only talk about

15 the areas that I myself saw. I cannot say anything about the areas to the

16 north of Sarajevo.

17 Q. Mr. Katic, I'm going to ask the question, again, and I'll ask you

18 to please answer the question put to you.

19 The document that you saw from General Milosevic ordering the

20 weapons to be camouflaged and hidden and moved only at night, I'm asking

21 about that document, that document does not say: Move the weapons 20

22 kilometres out of town, does it?

23 A. No. But it does order for the weapons to be concealed and to work

24 day and night to remove the weapons. Because if you can not do that in

25 three days, then you had to work around the clock to remove those weapons.

1 Because if the agreement stipulated that had you to do it within five or

2 ten days, and if you were unable to do that by working solely by day, you

3 had to work through the night to do it, to group the weapons where they

4 were supposed to be put, and not as you are putting to me, to store them

5 by day and then use them by night. That is not something that I can

6 accept.

7 Q. Mr. Katic, that document doesn't have the verb "to remove"

8 anywhere in it, does it? We can call it back up on the screen.

9 A. Would you please call it again.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let it be displayed.

11 MR. DOCHERTY: 65 ter number 01984.

12 Q. And my question, Mr. Katic, is this document talks about

13 concealing and hiding weapons, doesn't it? It doesn't say remove them

14 from the 20-kilometre exclusion zone. It says, "hide them." And I put it

15 to you, and this is my question, that is the only fair reading of this

16 document?

17 A. Under item 3, it says: "Order, the camouflage and hiding in solid

18 facilities, garage, basements of all heavy weapon in the 20-kilometre zone

19 around Sarajevo; Move heavy weapons through the 20-kilometre zone only in

20 accordance with the orders of the corps commander, during the night; and

21 take all police and other security measures so that if need arises for

22 such movements, they will be concealed from UNPROFOR forces."

23 Q. I have no more questions.

24 A. So what it says here is --

25 MR. DOCHERTY: I have no more questions.

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

2 Do you wish to conclude your sentence?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says here: "Order that all heavy

4 weapons in the 20-kilometre zone around Sarajevo be camouflaged and hidden

5 in solid buildings." That's what I wanted to say.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, we are at the time when we have to break

7 for the day, so regrettably you will have to come back tomorrow if

8 Mr. Tapuskovic wishes to re-examine.

9 So I ask, Mr. Tapuskovic: Do you wish to re-examine?

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, I do have a number of

11 questions that I really have to ask of this witness. I thought I would be

12 willing to release him, but I do have some questions that I have to ask.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well.

14 We are adjourned.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

16 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 5th day of June,

17 2007, at 9.00 a.m.

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