Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6147

1 Tuesday, 5 June 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Who is it that had some matters to raise. Is it

6 you, Mr. Tapuskovic?

7 Ms. Isailovic.

8 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. Good

9 morning, everyone.

10 It is really I who is going to raise a point; and, if possible, I

11 would like to go into private session.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.

13 [Private session]

14 (redacted)

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Page 6148

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12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 [Open session]

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

16 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you and the other

17 Judges are aware of the problems that the Defence has in communicating

18 with their client. We have small exchanges during the hearings; however,

19 today, we were told that it was not going to be possible anymore. We were

20 told that by the security because they have to stay in their places next

21 to the accused. In our mind, this could pose a problem in our

22 communication, which is already modest, it has to be admitted, and the

23 Defence needs to bring this problem to your notice so that we can find a

24 solution and redress the problem.

25 Thank you.

Page 6149

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I'm glad you mentioned that because that

2 was brought to my attention and the attention of the other Judges just

3 before we entered Court. It is a matter of concern to us because the

4 accused must be able to communicate with his counsel. At the same time,

5 we have to be sensitive to the security concerns.

6 This is a matter that would affect not only this trial. It's a

7 Tribunal-wide matter, and so I intend to take it up along those lines with

8 the President of the Tribunal and the registrar.

9 In the meantime, as an interim measure, I understand that usher

10 will respond to, I presume, a raised hand from the accused, when he has a

11 note, and the usher will traverse the courtroom and collect the note and

12 pass it to you.

13 I would like to think that it shouldn't be beyond our competence

14 to elaborate a more effective and a smoother method; but for the time

15 being, that is what will happen.

16 Well, please have the witness brought, and I must bring to your

17 attention another matter of concern. The direct examination for this

18 witness was four hours and 29 minutes; the cross-examination, four hours

19 and 10 ten minutes; 30 minutes questions by Judges. All told, four and

20 four, eight, a little over nine hours, and we believe that that is much

21 too long. So starting from the next witness the Court will be more

22 rigorous, more stringent in the allocation of time and the observance of

23 that time. The next witness will be three hours, and it will be will be

24 split evenly between the two sides.

25 So the witness now will be re-examined.

Page 6150

1 [The witness entered court]


3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

5 Re-examination by Mr. Tapuskovic: [Continued]

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. [Interpretation], Mr. Katic, I would like to take you back to a

8 couple of topics and cover them as briefly as and as quickly as possible.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I first ask for

10 that brief video film that was shown; P620, I believe it was, that was

11 shown at the end, to be put up again.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Yes let that be shown. The Prosecutor will

13 help us.

14 MR. DOCHERTY: It's coming, Your Honour.


16 [Videotape played]

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just wanted --

18 never mind.

19 Q. We have already seen this, Mr. Katic and last time you spoke about

20 the smoke?

21 MR. DOCHERTY: If Mr. Tapuskovic wants to see it again from the

22 beginning, it is very easily done. I make the offer.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we then freeze the movie at

24 the time when we see the smoke.

25 MR. DOCHERTY: Yes. We'll start it at the beginning. There are

Page 6151

1 some people talking, then you see the Presidency, and then we'll freeze it

2 when the explosion occurs.

3 [Videotape played]

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Last time, you gave us your opinion on this, and I don't want to

6 take you back to that. There was also discussion about an artillery

7 projectile.

8 Now, if it weren't for this smoke, if the smoke dispersed, would

9 you be able to tell us more about what happened to the Presidency

10 building?

11 A. If the smoke dispersed, and if I saw on the building segments of

12 broken facade or wall or that an artillery shell had fallen outside the

13 building, we would see fragments on the building.

14 Q. Thank you. The next thing has to do with that order that was

15 invoked several times here, P496.

16 Now, could you please look at the date; and if you can memorise

17 the number, at least try. Look at the heading.

18 A. The date is 7 November 1994, and the number is 2336-1.

19 Q. Thank you. What in your view does this document represent? Look

20 at the format. What is it?

21 A. It's an order.

22 Q. In what form?

23 A. It's an acquired information.

24 Q. No. I'm asking you in what form.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Maybe, Your Honours, you will

Page 6152

1 think it is leading.

2 Q. But is it a written order?

3 A. Yes. It is an order in written form.

4 Q. Now, please look at the document P751.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] 751.

6 Q. If you can, read the beginning of that first sentence and the

7 number -- or rather, read the whole first sentence.

8 A. "Following verbal orders of the commander of the Main Staff of the

9 VRS, immediately repeat assignment pursuant to my enactment, strictly

10 confidential number 20/15-342, dated 24th November, 1994."

11 Q. Do you notice anything that could be linked to that order we saw

12 just a moment ago, regarding the documents, the form of the order, or

13 these references to a previous order? Do you see any link?

14 A. This document has nothing to do with the previous document.

15 Q. Thank you. Look at document 533 now -- sorry, P33. It's a

16 Prosecution document.

17 Mr. Katic, you've seen this already. You saw it yesterday. Could

18 you please look again and tell me in which direction is it mentioned here

19 that VRS forces are firing, attacking?

20 A. From this document, we see that the forces of the army of

21 Republika Srpska are attacking in the area of Debelo Brdo.

22 Q. Thank you. Is it mentioned anywhere that Miljacka or another area

23 under the command of the BH army is involved?

24 A. From this letter sent to General Milosevic, we do not see any

25 references to attacks, other than in Debelo Brdo area.

Page 6153

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at P667.

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Counsel, it may be premature to ask this question,

4 but I kindly ask you to help us understand where you are taking us by

5 showing these documents. What was the purpose of showing the first two

6 orders? Was that they were very disparate and unlike? Where are we

7 going? Please assist us.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge Harhoff, we

9 are heading in the only possible direction; namely, to establish whether

10 one of the two documents we have seen is a verbal order invoking some

11 other document of I don't know which operation. I'm not going to

12 interpret the documents now, and one written order which has no basis in

13 the documents with which they tried to establish a link. In other words,

14 a link was claimed between two documents which are in no way related.

15 I'm not going to go into their interpretation because that would

16 involve a debate, but what I care about is to show you that those two

17 documents have no obvious link. I can go into interpretation only when

18 the time comes, and I'll tell you in our final brief what I think about

19 it. But I want the witness to note that between one order and the written

20 order there is no link, not in terms of date or the number or the

21 information included in either of them. That's one thing.

22 And related to the second event, it is said here that fire was

23 along Miljacka river and those shells were heading towards town, towards

24 settlements; whereas, it says clearly here that fire was in the area of

25 Debelo Brdo, where artillery attacks also originated, an area held by the

Page 6154

1 army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: I think it would be very helpful, at least it my

3 understanding of your case, if you would be kind enough to suggest which

4 conclusion you would like the Chamber to draw from showing this evidence

5 to us.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand your question.

7 Maybe I should answer it now; although, I believe that maybe the Defence

8 is not supposed to reveal everything immediately. But let me say that the

9 document that speaks about a direct order, the phrase is "I hereby order,"

10 and we can even ask the witness what was to be done if somebody receives

11 an order saying "I hereby order," and then fails to execute.

12 Now, if a verbal order was given, then what does a written order

13 which is irrevocable in military terms have to do with it? If I went

14 further into those documents, I could make a few more points, but that

15 would take time. I think for the time being this is sufficient.

16 As for the other matter, the fire directed at Debelo Brdo from

17 which artillery attacks were originated is a response, a deserved

18 response; whereas, the Prosecutor claimed that the fire was in the

19 opposite direction, across Miljacka river, at inhabited areas. I'm trying

20 to show that this was a military conflict, fire was from both sides, and

21 even that the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina fired more at the town;

22 whereas, the VRS fired across the town at Debelo Brdo. In such a

23 conflict, tragic outcomes are always possible.

24 And as my colleague has just reminded me, these were Prosecution

25 exhibits, and I am entitled to seek additional clarification regarding

Page 6155

1 such documents.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Absolutely. I don't question your right to do so.

3 My only concern is that by the time we get to the end of the case, we

4 might have forgotten the importance of these documents. That's why I

5 think it might be better to make the points while we have the documents on

6 the screen.

7 But let's stop now, and I kindly ask you to move on.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I now move to Prosecution Exhibit

9 P667. It's a Prosecution exhibit, again, and I don't want to go into all

10 the details here.

11 Q. But could you please tell me, briefly, what is a Bofors gun? What

12 calibre is it?

13 A. I think that it is a 20-millimetre gun.

14 Q. Thank you. And could you please look at what it says under item 1

15 in this order. Item 1.2, could you please read it?

16 A. "Immediately" --

17 Q. No. 1.2.

18 A. "Those weapons are to be used only if the Muslim attacks are to be

19 repelled."

20 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Could you please look at item 4, the first

21 sentence. Can you just read out the first sentence?

22 A. Could it please be brought up to the screen. That's the second

23 page.

24 "I strictly forbid the use on own initiative of heavy weapons that

25 are located in collection points under UNPROFOR control. Any such removal

Page 6156

1 and use of these weapons, in case of the need, will be requested by the

2 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command from the Main Staff of the Republika

3 Srpska army."

4 Q. Could we now look at document 758. This is the document that we

5 received in the course of the examination-in-chief.

6 Are you able to see the date in the letterhead?

7 A. Yes, I can. The 5th of June, 1992.

8 Q. Thank you. And when did you assume your office, the president of

9 the Novo Sarajevo municipality?

10 A. It was on the 13th of March, 1993.

11 Q. Thank you. Could we just look at it quickly. Item 3 on page 1,

12 could you just read the title.

13 A. "Accommodation of the population."

14 Q. B?

15 A. "Food supplies."

16 Q. C.

17 A. I can't see it. We should move to the next page.

18 Q. Well, fine. We should not go into all of this. The Prosecution

19 insisted here. I think it's item -- item 6. Could you please look at

20 item 6?

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] If we could move to the next

22 page.

23 Q. And since the Prosecutor read out everything, apart from the last

24 sentence, could you please read the last sentence in item 6.

25 A. "We visited the nunnery" --

Page 6157

1 Q. No, no, no. The last sentence in the first passage, the paragraph

2 under item 6?

3 A. I apologise. "We informed the Muslims that they would be safe if

4 they were militarily neutral to us, and so far the situation has been

5 good."

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we look at the photograph

8 754, P754, and then I will have no more questions.

9 Q. Mr. Katic, could you please tell the Judges, first of all, while

10 you were in the trenches, as you recounted to us, you gave us the

11 time-frame work and you told us what you were doing there. You, as a

12 rank-and-file soldier, what could you do on the orders of your superior?

13 What could you fire on at the separation line?

14 A. Well, at the location where I was deployed as a soldier for around

15 11 months, I was able to fire only in the direction of Debelo Brdo or at

16 Grbavica where the Republika Srpska army was deployed.

17 Q. Thank you. And could you tell me, since on this photograph you

18 indicated the separation line so precisely here and we already dealt with

19 all this yesterday, what was happening between the warring factions on

20 this separation line, primarily in terms of the positions of the two

21 warring factions?

22 A. Well, I can say, and, in fact, I did indicate this with the red

23 line, where the Bosnia-Herzegovina army troops were stationed. Here, on

24 this photograph, they were in building marked as B; and in the Invest

25 Banka building, just opposite, was the Republika Srpska army. And all

Page 6158

1 along the Miljacka, there were positions manned by the BH army; and on the

2 other bank of the Miljacka, there were the troops of the Republika Srpska

3 army.

4 Q. Thank you. What weapons were used primarily, and what did it look

5 like?

6 A. Well, only infantry weapons were used on both sides, automatic and

7 semi-automatic rifles. It was impossible to use heavy weapons here.

8 Neither side could it that. There were some sporadic exchanges of fire in

9 1994; and up until the spring of 1995, after the cease-fire was signed in

10 1994, sometimes you would hear gun-fire in that part of the front line.

11 Q. Yesterday, you mentioned living beings. What did you mean by

12 that?

13 A. Well, we Serbs use the term, "ziva sila," personnel for the

14 troops.

15 Q. Apart from those locations that you marked with M and F, now,

16 regarding the street that is just in front of these buildings in this area

17 here, what buildings dominated this area? These buildings are not on

18 this picture, but do you know their names and where they were?

19 A. Well, to the left of this photograph, there was the assembly hall

20 of the city of Sarajevo. I think it had 22-storeys. The Unis buildings,

21 which were the tallest buildings again to the left of this photograph,

22 just opposite Holiday Inn hotel, they were tall buildings, 20-storeys and

23 22-storeys.

24 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Katic.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. This

Page 6159

1 concludes my examination.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Katic, that concludes your evidence. We

3 thank you for giving it, and you may now leave.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you,

5 Mr. Robinson. I would like to thank the Tribunal for allowing me to

6 assist in your endeavours. I would like to thank you, the Prosecution and

7 the Defence, and I would also like to say good-bye to all of you, and to

8 you Mr. Milosevic.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Next witness.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Who is the next witness, Mr. Tapuskovic? Who is

12 the next witness?

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness is Dragan Timic.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Dragan Simic.

16 [The witness entered court]

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

19 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

23 And you may begin, Mr. Tapuskovic.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 Examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

Page 6160

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

2 I would like to lead the witness on those basic matters until we

3 get to the main issues.


5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Sir, your name is Dragan Simic?

7 A. Yes.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, none of the exhibits that you

10 intend to introduce through this witness - and I see, one, two, three,

11 four, five - none of them have been translated into English.

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I actually wanted to

13 ask you right at the beginning, it's just a brief document. I may not

14 even show this document to the witness because it is a very brief document

15 that I was able to translate, and I can in fact tender it through any

16 witness. So we don't really have to interpret it here. It has just a

17 couple of sentences, but it could be quite useful for the Court.

18 And if I am unable to use because of lack of translation, I intend

19 to use only one page of this document. The rest is just some military

20 records, some military documents that have nothing to do with this

21 witness. But if do you not agree, then, I will not tender it, because I

22 can do it through any witness. But this witness was a direct participant

23 in an event that this document pertains to, and he can tell us something

24 about it.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, we'll begin the

Page 6161

1 examination-in-chief, but I'd like to stress, to emphasise that you're

2 obliged to follow the Rules of the Court, and you must have your documents

3 translated. That's an obligation on all parties, not only you.

4 So let us proceed and see whether we can get along without the

5 translation.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honours, I have to

7 tell you something. The Defence is making great efforts to translate all

8 the documents, and I will -- perhaps this will be the last time that I

9 intend to use an untranslated document.

10 But I have to tell you that when we were allotted the time to

11 prepare our 65 ter list of documents and witnesses, we addressed the CLSS,

12 the translation service, with our requests for some documents to be

13 translated, and we were told that none of those documents could be

14 translated before the 1st of June and that they're still working on some

15 documents that we had submitted earlier.

16 We are making great efforts, and I could have had it translated on

17 my own or found somebody to translate it. This is very -- it is very

18 difficulty. I don't have the service at my disposal, but I will do my

19 best.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us proceed, Mr. Tapuskovic.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you. Yes.

22 Q. Mr. Dragan Simic, you were born on the 5th of November, 1968, in

23 Han Pijesak, in the village of Dzimrije?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You completed elementary and secondary education in the village of

Page 6162

1 Sokolovic?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you graduated from the secondary school of metal working in

4 1987?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Until the end of 1990, you worked at Unis factory at the tool

7 production plant?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And then you lost your job. You were laid off; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Could you please tell the Judges what happened then. How long

12 were you unemployed, and what happened then?

13 A. Well, before 1991, I lost my job. That -- and then in September

14 1991, I was mobilised into the JNA in Han Pijesak. I was drafted into the

15 216th Mountain Brigade there.

16 Q. What kind of tasks did you do? What did you do in the JNA?

17 A. Well, I was in the military police company. I was a driver.

18 Q. At that time, who was your direct superior and who did you drive

19 around?

20 A. That was Captain Ljubisa Milic. I drove him around most

21 frequently, and sometimes the brigade command members.

22 Q. Who was the commander of the 216th Mountain Brigade of the

23 Yugoslav People's Army?

24 A. That was Dragomir Milosevic, who was a colonel at the time.

25 Q. How many times did you drive him around until the conflict broke

Page 6163

1 out, if we can put it that way?

2 A. Well, two or three times.

3 Q. When the conflict broke out, where were you?

4 A. I was at Lukavica when the conflict broke out. That was on the

5 day when the incident at Dobrovoljacka Street happened, so it was early

6 May.

7 Q. Thank you. Who did you drive to Lukavica?

8 A. My commander and two other -- other officers, commanding officer

9 officers.

10 Q. Who was your commander?

11 A. It was Ljubisa Milic.

12 Q. And what happened in the days that followed?

13 A. Well, I spent the days that followed at Lukavica, until the second

14 half of May when the JNA started pulling out.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The counsel and witness

16 should make pauses between questions an answers.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please observe a pause between question and

18 answer to facilitate the interpretation.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. What happened? You went there at the time of the incident in

21 Dobrovoljacka Street. What happened in the next few days?

22 A. Again, I drove the officers, as need may be; and, usually, it was

23 my captain, Mr. Misic, until the second half of May. On a certain day in

24 the second half of May, he said that I should take him to Han Pijesak, and

25 he told me that he was to travel to Yugoslavia.

Page 6164

1 Q. Thank you. What did he recommend for to you do?

2 A. I asked him what am I to do from then on? And he said you can go

3 home; and if there's a need for you, someone will give you a call.

4 Q. Where is your house?

5 A. My family house is in the village of Dzimrije, and we had another

6 house in Sokolac.

7 Q. What took place in the next few days?

8 A. In that month or month and a half, I was with my parents, and

9 there was a family tragedy because my father was killed close to our house

10 on the 30th of June, 1992. He was killed some 2 to 300 metres away from

11 the house.

12 Q. How did that happen? Can you explain to us briefly?

13 A. My mother and father went to fetch some firewood, and my mother

14 noticed a group of people in the forest. All of a sudden they opened fire

15 upon them. My father was killed and my mother, by sheer luck, managed to

16 survive. She came to the house, and she told me what had happened.

17 Q. Were any other vents important for the few next days?

18 A. Within the next week, my uncle was killed in the nearby village.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please be

20 asked to move closer to the microphone.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, please move closer to the microphone

22 because the interpreter is having difficulty hearing you.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. After a month and a half, during which you were at home and after

25 all those things, what did you do?

Page 6165

1 A. After all those events and the tragedy we suffered, I reported to

2 Han Pijesak to the military office there, and I was told to go to Lukavica

3 to report to the 1st Romanija Brigade, which is what I did.

4 Q. Mr. Simic, during our examination today, please bear in mind to

5 watch the cursor on the screen. Once it has stopped, then proceed with

6 your answer.

7 Who commanded the 1st Romanija Brigade?

8 A. When I arrived at Lukavica, the 1st Romanija Brigade commander was

9 Dragomir Milosevic.

10 Q. And you were with the military police. Please wait for me to

11 finish. What were your tasks once in the unit?

12 A. I was assigned to the military police company as a driver, and

13 that was my duty.

14 Q. Who were the people that you drove?

15 A. Most frequently, it was the military police commander, Ratko

16 Djurkovic, and on occasion some other officers from the brigade command.

17 Q. Tell me, when did you come to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps staff?

18 Please wait for the transcript, and then proceed with your answer.

19 A. In early August 1994, I was reassigned to the battalion of the

20 corps police that was stationed at Lukavica; and from there, I was

21 assigned to be a driver and a part of the security detail for the corps

22 commander.

23 Q. Can you describe for me your duties, including the security duty?

24 What were your tasks?

25 A. I was to drive when I was there as a driver, and we had to go

Page 6166

1 close to the enemy lines, were fired upon. As for security, we had to

2 provide physical security for officers or to get stuff for them, if they

3 needed any. And, of course, we had to make sure that we arrived

4 satisfactorily at the place we intended to go to.

5 Q. Did you get any orders from your commander?

6 A. No. All of the orders were received by his assistant, Lieutenant

7 Dobrilovic. He was General Milosevic's assistant.

8 Q. What, for example, were his orders?

9 A. He would issue us the task for that day. He would tell us where

10 we were to go. And if he knew, he would let us know how long we would

11 stay there, and then we would usually come back the same day.

12 Q. Whose driver were you?

13 A. General Milosevic's.

14 Q. Thank you. Mr. Simic, wait for the cursor to stop and then start

15 with the reply.

16 A. I don't see it before me.

17 Q. Go on explaining, please.

18 A. We received orders from the aide-de-camp, Lieutenant Slavisa

19 Dobrilovic.

20 Q. These orders were always oral?

21 A. Yes. He would convey those orders to us in the morning or

22 sometimes in the evening.

23 Q. Were you ever given any instructions in written form?

24 A. Only concerning my specific tasks; where and how I was to drive

25 and how to provide security. My particular tasks en route, and I would

Page 6167

1 given those --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: I was given those

3 once I was assigned to the unit to be Mr. Milosevic' driver.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. And those were the only written instructions?

6 A. Yes. Those were no orders. It was a description of my duties.

7 Q. Can you tell me where the command post was?

8 A. At Lukavica, in the barracks.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have the 65 ter

10 document 02892. I believe it to be the UNPROFOR map.

11 Q. Mr. Simic, on this map, can you indicate where the

12 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command was, and please mark it?

13 A. Yes, I can.

14 Q. Next to the marking, could you please put the letter K?

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. While you were at the command, where were you supposed to be?

17 Where was your workplace?

18 A. There was a room that we used to spend time in, and it was in the

19 other wing, in the building where the corps commander was.

20 Q. As a driver, were you ever able to attend staff meetings or any

21 other meetings that had to do with the command of the SRK?

22 A. No, never.

23 Q. When you went out in the field - and we'll discuss this in more

24 detail later - what did the situation look like? Can you explain to us

25 briefly?

Page 6168

1 A. Yes, I can. When we were in the field, anywhere within the

2 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps area, if I was with the command, I was in front of

3 the command and would wait for the general to return, to come back. And

4 when we toured our positions and trenches, then I was beside the general.

5 Q. And if there was a forward command post or a trench or anything

6 similar, when were you positioned on such occasions?

7 A. In front of that particular facility.

8 Q. Were you ever allowed to attend meetings of staff officers or work

9 meetings between people who were supposed to make decisions?

10 A. No.

11 Q. When you were in trenches with him --

12 A. Then I was always with him, next to him.

13 Q. What was your duty then?

14 A. To provide security for the general.

15 Q. The place you marked with the letter K, what was the location?

16 Was there anything peculiar about that command post? Perhaps you can tell

17 us which side of the world it was, and what was this command post of the

18 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

19 A. The Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command was in a barracks. If one

20 looked towards Sarajevo, between Sarajevo and the command post, there was

21 Mount Mojmilo.

22 Q. Could you mark that elevation, please --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: It was a hill.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Could you please put the letter M there.

Page 6169

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. Were there any other hills nearby?

3 A. In this part?

4 Q. I mean, perhaps in some other direction.

5 A. Yes. Upon leaving the barracks, going to the right, one goes to

6 the Nisic plateau and to the left towards Trnovo.

7 Q. Please mark those. Please mark the direction of Trnovo, put an

8 arrow there.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. Put the already T there.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. In that direction, were there any elevations?

13 A. Yes, Igman. And the Krupac quarry.

14 Q. The direction you marked, upon leaving the barracks, in the area

15 of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, what feature, what elevation was there?

16 A. In the direction of Trnovo?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. There was Krupac held by the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

19 Q. Where is Igman there? Mark it, please.

20 A. One cannot see it here. Somewhere here approximately.

21 Q. Please mark it.

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. How would you describe the command location? You said that

24 Mojmilo was nearby?

25 A. Yes. On the other side, there was Igman.

Page 6170

1 Q. And where was Gavrica Brdo, Gavrica hill?

2 A. Gavrica hill is to the left of the road, in the direction of

3 Trnovo.

4 Q. Please indicate that on the map.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. Mark it with a G.

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. What is its altitude compared to Mojmilo and Igman?

9 A. It is quite lower than both Igman and Mojmilo.

10 Q. Thank you. Where else did you go when going out into the field?

11 Please mark those directions with arrows.

12 A. We went towards the Nisic plateau.

13 Q. Please put an arrow to mark the direction.

14 A. It is towards Vraca. The road takes you through Lukavica.

15 Q. Thank you. Mark it with a N.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. And put another arrow for any other directions you were able to

18 take.

19 A. Yes, towards Pale.

20 Q. Put a P there.

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. That was the direction towards Pale; and in order for to you be

23 able to reach the Nisic plateau, where did you have to go? Perhaps you

24 needn't mark the whole route, but just let us know which direction you had

25 to take.

Page 6171

1 A. In order for me to reach the Nisic plateau, I had to go to Pale

2 through Mrkovici, and it was also a difficult area to go through. We were

3 targeted there from Grdonj, and from there we had to go to Vogosca.

4 Q. Please mark Vogosca.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. Put a V, letter V there.

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. If you were going towards Nisici, just draw a small arrow to show

9 the direction?

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. What's the distance from Nisici to there?

12 A. You mean from Vogosca? Thirty to 40 kilometres.

13 Q. And if you were going towards Ilidza, could you draw an arrow?

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. What was the distance?

16 A. Fifteen to 20 kilometres.

17 Q. From where?

18 A. From Vogosca.

19 Q. Could you mark Ilidza.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Put a letter I.

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. And if you were to go on to Nisic, could you draw the whole -- an

24 arrow the whole way?

25 A. From where?

Page 6172

1 Q. From Ilidza.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. Sorry, sorry. Not Nisici. To Nedzarici. Leave this line. It

4 doesn't hurt. Draw a line up to Nedzarici?

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. Well, you must have been able to go further on.

7 A. It was difficult. It was difficult to pass through to the end.

8 It's here up in the middle, Nedzarici.

9 Q. And why was it difficult?

10 A. Because Nedzarici was surrounded on three sides. It was like a

11 dead end of sorts. It was difficult to drive. It was easier to walk.

12 Q. Could you briefly describe how you guarded Dragomir Milosevic when

13 you were out in the field? Be it in Nisic or in Trnovo, how did you

14 actually serve as his security man?

15 A. Well, when we were going towards Trnovo or the Nisic plateau, I

16 had to protect our cars by putting flakjackets in the inside, along the

17 doors. It was a difficult work because we used all sorts of byroads. If

18 we were going through Trnovo, it was rough terrain, very difficult to go

19 through.

20 Q. Could you explain, how often did the general go out into the

21 field, as opposed to staying at his command post in Lukavica? Where did

22 he spend more time?

23 A. Most of the time he was out in the field. I just remember that

24 for a while in the beginning of August, or maybe September when I arrived,

25 we spent more time in the command.

Page 6173

1 Q. Why? Can you explain?

2 A. It was quiet. There was a truce, a cease-fire. There was not

3 much activity, so we didn't go out into the field that much.

4 Q. Thank you. And what started happening in October?

5 A. In October 1994, an offensive began, an offensive of the BH army,

6 in the area of Trnovo and Nisic plateau.

7 Q. And in the months that followed, where did you spend your time in

8 day-time? Could you describe your average workday?

9 A. At that time, in the morning, I would receive orders from my

10 superior for that day. We would go early out into the field, be it

11 towards Trnovo or towards the Nisic plateau, and we would stay there the

12 whole day, until late at night.

13 Since passage was difficult by roads that we normally used, we had

14 to get up very early to get to the Nisic plateau or Trnovo; and when we

15 got there, I would first take the general to the command post.

16 Q. Thank you. So when you arrived at a command post, where would you

17 go?

18 A. I would stay outside.

19 Q. Just remember the pauses.

20 And after the command post, where did the general go?

21 A. Almost every time he would go to defence lines held by the VRS.

22 Q. You said a moment ago that when he was on the front line in

23 trenches, you were next to the General?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Remember the pauses.

Page 6174

1 Did you hear what he said to the troops when he addressed them?

2 A. Yes, I did. Most often, or rather, constantly, he told them to

3 take care, to be always on the lookout, not to fire without any need, to

4 save their ammunition, because the offensive will be stopped, that they

5 will be successful in defending their positions.

6 Q. And in that area, speaking of the Nisic plateau and Trnovo, but

7 let stay on the Nisic plateau for a while, were there any civilian

8 buildings nearby? Were there any local residents there? What kind of

9 place is that?

10 A. No. On the Nisic plateau, there were very few houses and all of

11 them were destroyed. It was practically a roadless area, wooded.

12 Q. And when you were in Trnovo, could you show the Judges where

13 Nisici is and where Trnovo is on this map? Just point it out.

14 A. Shall I get up? This is the Nisic plateau.

15 Q. Thank you. And what was the situation in Trnovo? Were there any

16 civilian settlements? Were there any civilians at all?

17 A. In Trnovo itself, yes, there were civilians. There were some on

18 the lines and close to the lines.

19 Q. And which ethnic group lived there?

20 A. In Trnovo, you mean? Serbs mostly.

21 Q. Could you tell us, briefly, how long did this clash between the BH

22 army and the VRS last after starting in October?

23 A. Around a month and a half.

24 Q. Did you remember an event from that period in Trnovo, whether

25 there were people who were living there? Did anything stick in your mind?

Page 6175

1 A. I remember in November, I had brought the general to Trnovo.

2 People were rallied there. I don't know exactly how many. And when I got

3 out of the car, I found out that they were asking the general to provide

4 transportation so they can move out of Trnovo. That was in November.

5 Q. And why?

6 A. They said - I could hear that myself. I heard the people speak -

7 that it was a very powerful fierce offensive. They were afraid that the

8 BH army would get to Trnovo and pass through, and they remembered year

9 1992 very vividly when Trnovo was under the BH army.

10 The general addressed them, saying that they should stay, they

11 shouldn't go, that he would do everything to make sure that the lines are

12 secured, and that Trnovo is saved.

13 Q. Thank you. And when did -- when did this fighting stop?

14 A. Sometime in December, if my memory serves me right.

15 Q. Do you recall what followed?

16 A. From January to May 1995, it was quiet. There was a cease-fire,

17 but even then the roads that I used were targeted, but not so badly as

18 when fighting was going on.

19 Q. In that period of time, from end December to May the next year,

20 which positions did the general visit more often?

21 A. We mostly went to the parts of town held by the army of Republika

22 Srpska; that is, Grbavica and Nedzarici. More often than not we would go

23 to Grbavica.

24 Q. And when you had to go to Nedzarici, did you again have to go this

25 roundabout way that you marked with arrows?

Page 6176

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. Since you say that the general went to Grbavica and also other

3 points in town that were under the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, did he speak

4 to anyone there? Where did he go most often?

5 A. Most of the time he went to see troops in trenches. He addressed

6 soldiers, talked to them.

7 Q. Thank you. And what did he tell them?

8 A. His main point he always repeated that they should be on the

9 lookout, be on their guard, never to relax, only to return fire if

10 attacked directly in their trenches, and to fire only at the military

11 target from which they are fired at. And he always said that they must

12 under no circumstances fire at civilians. He always underlined that.

13 Q. Why?

14 A. Well, as I heard it then, he told them, "Don't do that, be

15 careful, pay attention, because you hear all the media saying that we

16 target civilians, and you know yourselves it is not true."

17 Q. Did he say anything about what they should be protecting more than

18 anything else?

19 A. Well, in Grbavica, he said that their families were behind them,

20 their property.

21 Q. And on your travels with him, when you must have spent a lot of

22 time together, did you hear him complain of anything?

23 A. As far as I remember, his only complaint was that there was no

24 food. It was difficult to get hold of food. That's the only complaint I

25 heard from the general a couple of times.

Page 6177

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it seems to be the

2 time for the break.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We'll adjourn for 20 minutes.

4 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please continue, Mr. Tapuskovic.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Mr. Simic, we both have to make sure that we do things the way I

9 have already described to you.

10 While we're on this topic of visits to the field, how long would

11 he stay there when he went to the command post or to another area? How

12 long would he stay in the field in the forward command post?

13 A. Very briefly, 15 to 30 minutes.

14 Q. And where would he go there, and where did he spend most of the

15 time?

16 A. He would go to the front lines, to see the soldiers, and he would

17 stay there until late in the evening talking to the soldiers, to the

18 troops.

19 Q. And could you please tell me, since you accompanied him most of

20 the time, based on what I hear from you, what weapons did you carry while

21 performing your duties?

22 A. A pistol and an automatic rifle.

23 Q. Do you know anything about the heavy weapons exclusion zone?

24 A. As far as I can recall, I think this was in 1994. This was when

25 all the heavy weapons had to be pulled out of the vicinity of the town, to

Page 6178

1 an area maybe 20 kilometres around the town.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Docherty -- Mr. Waespi, rather.

3 MR. WAESPI: Yes. We have switched seats during the break.

4 The mentioning of the heavy weapons exclusion zone reminds me of

5 the topic of the 65 ter summaries. Already, to my surprise, it was stated

6 that this gentleman is not only the driver but also a security detail of

7 the accused, something which wasn't mentioned in the summaries, and now to

8 go into this whole new world of total exclusion zone. And I'm, in fact,

9 not sure whether this gentleman can elaborate much more on this subject.

10 So I just raise it, Mr. President, again, the issue of the 65 ter

11 summaries, and I think you have at one time announced that there will be a

12 ruling on -- on the sufficiency of the 65 ter summaries.

13 It is really, really difficult for to us prepare. We don't have

14 rank. We don't have specific units these gentlemen belong to.

15 Occasionally, we try to get back to the Defence and ask them to tell us

16 more detail, as I did in an e-mail yesterday. Some summaries are

17 inaccurate. One of the witnesses - I think, it is it P53 - we were told

18 he was a soldier. Now is he a captain. So, in fact, we going to the

19 wrong direction when preparing. So I really urge you, Mr. President, to

20 rule that these summaries be more explicit, so we can really prepare for

21 cross-examination. Otherwise - and I use this word in reluctance - it is

22 not fair to the Prosecution.

23 Thank you, Mr. President.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my colleague,

Page 6179

1 Ms. Isailovic, dealt with this issue after an agreement. Could she then

2 now deal with it, because we agreed that she should deal with procedural

3 matters. She replied to this letter by Mr. Waespi yesterday and I dealt

4 with other matters, so do you allow her to respond, please.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Yes, Ms. Isailovic.

6 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

7 In fact, I have not yet sent the letter because I had some

8 problems with my USB stick. I will do that as soon as possible, of

9 course.

10 But since Mr. Waespi is talking about the inappropriateness of our

11 65 ter summaries, perhaps this would be the right moment to respond. And

12 I will use the same phrase that I wrote in my letter, that I am about to

13 send, but perhaps it would be more efficient to repeat it now.

14 First of all, the Defence is doing its 65 ter summaries in

15 accordance, fully in accordance with the 65 ter G, Rule 65 ter G, which

16 defines the obligation of the Defence in this respect. The Defence is in

17 compliance with its obligations in the interest of safeguarding the

18 interests and rights of the accused, and the Defence has different

19 obligations in this regard than the Prosecution for a very simple reason:

20 In order to safeguard the rights of the accused.

21 In this respect - and I admit this and so does Mr. Tapuskovic - we

22 have tried and we are trying to make the personal information available to

23 the Prosecution, even if the Rules do not oblige us to do so, in order

24 to -- for them to be able to ascertain the battalion, the brigade, where a

25 certain soldier served, or a location where soldiers fought; not the date

Page 6180

1 of birth, because this is not envisaged by the rules. But I do understand

2 the Prosecutor's concerns. They might want to conduct some investigations

3 because this is their job.

4 The Defence is unable to conduct any deeper investigation

5 regarding some Prosecution witnesses, and the Prosecution, on the other

6 hand, is able to do. I, of course, understand this. If I were in

7 Mr. Waespi's shoes, I would do the same thing; but, of course, we have to

8 comply with the rules in and the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, and

9 they're not there just like that. There is a reason why they are there,

10 because the 65 ter F that stipulates obligations of the Prosecution and 65

11 ter G that stipulates the obligations of the Defence are different, worded

12 differently.

13 The Chamber will rule on this issue, but I compared the summaries

14 provided to us by the Prosecution, and I really tried to follow the same

15 structure, the quality and quantity of the information contained therein.

16 We even included more information. Because if you look at the Prosecution

17 summaries, you can't even see whether they -- they did not comply with

18 their obligations, and Judge Antonetti was not very happy with Mr. Stamp's

19 work. He was the Prosecutor at that time. But, of course, we were unable

20 to get anything more. We did get the statements because this stems from

21 another obligation of the Prosecution. There is no reciprocity. It is

22 not a symmetrical obligation that would bind the Defence, too.

23 Mr. Tapuskovic and I, we are really sorry, but we're doing our job

24 in accordance with the Rules, and I will send this letter to my learned

25 colleague, perhaps including some more details, and in the belief or

Page 6181

1 giving him my assurances that the Defence will, in future, try and supply

2 more information. But we, for instance, today notified the Prosecution

3 about some information about a witness who will be called soon. This is

4 something that is -- it's a professional courtesy.

5 Thank you very much.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Ms. Isailovic.

7 If I am to speak on this issue, I make it clear that I am speaking

8 for myself. In the Slobodan Milosevic trial over which I presided for the

9 presentation of the Defence case, the 65 ter summaries submitted by the

10 accused in that case were even slimmer than what has been submitted. I

11 had my legal assistant check this, and she confirmed this.

12 The practice of Chambers in regard to this issue appears to be not

13 consistent, and there hasn't been any ruling on it by the Appeals Chamber,

14 but I come to the issue with a particular doctrinal background. In my

15 view, the rights and obligations of the Prosecution and the Defence are

16 not necessarily symmetrical. They are certainly asymmetrical in certain

17 respects. The Prosecution has certain duties, which do not apply to the

18 Defence; and I believe in relation to disclosure, that issue is very much

19 influenced by the right to silence of the accused. So I knowledge, yes,

20 there is a provision in the Rules for that, but I believe that provision,

21 like all other provisions in any Rule, must be interpreted in light of the

22 relevant provisions of the statute.

23 So, that as far as I'm concerned, I would not be inclined to

24 oblige the Defence to do more that it is doing, but I would ask them in

25 the spirit of cooperation that has existed between the two teams to do as

Page 6182

1 much as they can. And I make it clear that I'm speaking for myself on

2 this issue.

3 Yes. Would you continue, please.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, well, I can rephrase

5 the question, if necessary.

6 Q. Mr. Simic, you arrived or you became Mr. Dragomir Milosevic's

7 driver when? When did you say?

8 A. In early August 1994. In early August 1994.

9 Q. So you were the driver. You did not have any rank. What did you

10 see? What did you observe as you travelled around with General Milosevic

11 in the field, and how much attention did you pay to all those extraneous

12 matters; in other words, those matters that were not part of your task?

13 A. Well, I had precious little time to observe what was happening

14 around me. All I know is I heard either from the soldiers or from the

15 media.

16 Q. Mr. Simic, that's not what I meant. You said that you had a

17 pistol and an infantry weapon. Did you come across any other weapons?

18 What did you observe at the time? You said that you were aware of the

19 total exclusion zone. What did you observe?

20 A. At the Nisic plateau, I saw some cannons, mortars, and maybe a

21 tank a or two, and I noticed the same thing in the Trnovo sector.

22 Q. And when you went to the positions in Ilidza, Dobrinja, Nedzarici,

23 Grbavica, what did you observe there?

24 A. Just the troops with infantry weapons.

25 Q. Were there any weapons anywhere? In some locations, they were in

Page 6183

1 the no combat positions?

2 A. I don't know exactly, but I did notice that there was something

3 under UNPROFOR control, if I remember correctly. But I don't know where

4 exactly it was. I can't remember.

5 Q. Fine. Could you please tell me, you said that there was this

6 peaceful period and you explained to us where General Milosevic was. How

7 long did this period last, the one that you just described to us? What

8 happened in this period? Were there any events related to military

9 activities?

10 A. The -- do you mean the period from January until spring? If

11 that's what you mean, it was a peaceful period. We didn't travel much.

12 We only went to the parts of the town where Republika Srpska army troops

13 were, and this lull lasted until May.

14 Q. Thank you. And what happened in May?

15 A. Fierce attacks were launched from the town, from areas controlled

16 by the BH army, and all the routes that I used to drive the general around

17 were targeted on a daily basis. It was impossible to move on them. I had

18 to take good care of my car. We travelled by night, and the Zlatiste

19 stretch was particularly risky.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I didn't save the map. And in

22 the meantime, I did not call up any documents. I don't know if the map

23 that we used to mark -- I don't know if this map is still on the screen.

24 And if it can be given a number, I would like to tender the map, the

25 UNPROFOR map with the markings made by the witness as a Defence exhibit.

Page 6184

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.

2 THE REGISTRAR: As D207, Your Honours.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is a 65 ter

4 document 02930. The witness mentioned Zlatiste, and I would like to have

5 the witness explain some things to me. As I entered the courtroom today,

6 although I did not put this photograph on my initial exhibit list, the --

7 Mr. Waespi agreed that this photograph, 65 ter 02930, that I could use it.

8 Do I have your approval, too, Your Honours?


10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Since the image has been

11 preserved, perhaps we can look at the photograph I have just mentioned.

12 It is a 65 ter document, number 02930.

13 It is somewhat dark. Could we make it a bit brighter, please.

14 Q. Mr. Simic, can you show to the Chamber where Zlatiste is, since

15 you mentioned it a minute ago? Could you show us that place in the

16 photograph, and please mark it, since I believe you will be able to find

17 it, and with the usher's assistance will be able to mark that spot? Show

18 us Zlatiste, please. Provided you can see it there, could you mark it

19 with a line, please, across the entire area?

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Thank you. If one looks closely, and I believe the photograph is

22 excellent in that regard, can you also see the road there?

23 A. No. I don't see it.

24 Q. In relation to that line, well, please put a Z close to it first.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 6185

1 Q. From the middle of the line, can you put -- make another line, but

2 the question first.

3 Can you mark Debelo Brdo on this photograph?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Please put a line there.

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. Please mark it.

8 A. By which letter?

9 Q. Letter D.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. Can you connect the end of the line, or rather, the beginning, as

12 you mark -- as you marked it? Can you connect the locations of Zlatiste

13 and Debelo Brdo?

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Thank you. The area you marked with the third line, put a letter

16 L there, please.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. Can you tell us where the VRS positions were? Just indicate it to

19 us, and do not enter any markings as of yet. Were they at the first line?

20 A. The VRS positions were at the front line close to the road, which

21 is the first line I indicated.

22 Q. Thank you. What about the area between the VRS positions and

23 Debelo Brdo?

24 A. No one controlled that area. It was like a buffer zone, a no

25 man's land. The army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was at Debelo Brdo.

Page 6186

1 Q. Can you tell us where a tower is? There was a mention of a tower

2 close to the VRS positions.

3 A. Yes. The Zlatiste tower.

4 Q. Please mark it.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. Put an M there.

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. During that May, what was important about the tower?

9 A. The lines, the positions followed the road I mentioned and near

10 the tower; therefore, the tower was constantly exposed to the fire from

11 Debelo Brdo.

12 Q. Where did the road go? The road across Zlatiste, where did it go

13 compared to the elevation where the tower was, if we are looking at

14 Lukavica?

15 A. Looking from Lukavica, it went towards Pale.

16 Q. No. Looking from the line that you marked and towards the spot

17 where you said the tower was, where did the road go compared to the tower?

18 A. You mean the Zlatiste tower?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. To the right-hand side there was a forest, and the road went

21 across the positions I indicated and via Zlatiste, where I put the Z.

22 Q. From that road, there was no open view of the city of Sarajevo

23 from behind the hill where the tower was?

24 A. It was difficult. One could only see the parts of the city across

25 the Miljacka.

Page 6187


2 MR. WAESPI: Yes. The witness gave the answer, but it was clearly

3 leading in this question, that there was no view; and, in fact, it doesn't

4 reflect the evidence on the record.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: It was a leading question. You must avoid

6 leading questions, Mr. Tapuskovic. Evidence elicited by leading questions

7 has no value.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm familiar with that practice.

9 It applies to my legal system as well, and leading questions are not

10 permitted, although there is no cross-examination. Therefore, I accept

11 your suggestion.

12 Q. Mr. Simic, tell me this --

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's not a suggestion; it's a ruling. I don't

14 make suggestions; I give rulings.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Maybe it was a matter of

16 interpretation or a poor choice of wording. I know that you rule on

17 matters, and it is fully correct. I may not pose leading questions. Your

18 assessment was a correct one, and I have tried my entire career not to put

19 leading questions because in our system, one is not allowed to put leading

20 questions, and I believe it to be a weakness, since we have no

21 cross-examination at our disposal.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just continue.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. How can you reach Zlatiste? From what direction?

25 A. From the direction of Lukavica.

Page 6188

1 Q. Please put an arrow at the beginning of the line you entered

2 first.

3 A. From the direction of Lukavica.

4 Q. Thank you. And on the other end of that line, where does the road

5 go from there?

6 A. Towards Pale. Trebevic-Pale.

7 Q. Just a second. On the other end of the line, please put another

8 arrow there.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. The first arrow should be marked with a L; the other arrow with a

11 P.

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. Can you tell me what is the distance concerning the first line you

14 marked? How large or long is the area as Zlatiste, as you marked it up to

15 the letter Z?

16 A. Some 300 to 350 metres.

17 Q. Thank you. What begins there?

18 A. Upon leaving Lukavica, and if one has passed the Zlatiste tower,

19 that part of the road, that stretch of 300 metres begins the one that was

20 open to fire. There was the army there; and once you've passed the 300 or

21 350 metre, one enters a dense forest on the right-hand sides and the road

22 goes on to Pale.

23 Q. How long is the stretch through the forest?

24 A. Around ten kilometres.

25 Q. When driving through the forest, what did you usually come across?

Page 6189

1 A. Across the soldiers that were in the trenches there, close to the

2 road, on one part of that leg.

3 Q. Did you ever hear the general issue any orders when travelling

4 that stretch of the road?

5 A. No. I never heard him order anything. If sometimes we stopped,

6 that would only be -- that was only to greet the soldiers, but I never

7 heard him issue any orders there.

8 Q. Please explain. How come he didn't issue any orders there?

9 A. The forest was dense, century old trees, and one couldn't see

10 anything. The confrontation line was on both sides of the forest; but

11 from the forest itself, one cannot see anything. You can only see the

12 trees before you. Probably for that reason he didn't need to stop there

13 frequently or at least as frequently as he did at the Nisic plateau and

14 Trnovo.

15 Q. Correct. So he was going through that forest in order to get

16 where?

17 A. To Pale. Once out of the forest, you have some 20 kilometres left

18 to Pale, from Zlastiste.

19 Q. And where would he go from there?

20 A. If we were going towards the Nisic plateau, we went towards

21 Vogosca; and then we would turn to the Nisic plateau via certain places

22 that we had to go through, for example, Derventa, Somborac, Hresca, and

23 then we would start encountering problems.

24 Q. Thank you. We heard about that from other witnesses.

25 The distance between Zlatiste and Debelo Brdo, what is it and how

Page 6190

1 far is it from one another? I don't think I asked you about that yet.

2 What is the distance?

3 A. About 300 metres more or less.

4 Q. From Zlatiste, that you had marked with the first line, what can

5 you see?

6 A. Only the parts of the city that were across the Miljacka.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would kindly ask

8 that this photograph be assigned as a number, and be given a Defence

9 exhibit number.


11 THE REGISTRAR: As D208, Your Honours.

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Simic, you said that in May there were certain events that you

14 described at Zlatiste. What did it look like? How many days did it last?

15 A. It began in early May. I don't remember the exact date. But in

16 mid-May, by that time, the road was already cut off, the road between

17 Lukavica, Trebevic, and Pale.

18 Q. Thank you. And in mid-May, which VRS position was the most

19 forward?

20 A. Are we talking about Zlatiste? Zlatiste. They targeted that part

21 the most from Debelo Brdo.

22 Q. And during those days, where was General Milosevic?

23 A. He usually came to the observation post that was just above

24 Zlatiste, above the road, a few metres away.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if we could give

Page 6191

1 the witness a clean sheet of paper for him to be able to draw a couple of

2 things.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. The usher will hand him a clean sheet of

4 paper.

5 And I take the opportunity to say to the accused, Mr. Milosevic,

6 you should not feel inhibited by the new procedure for to you communicate

7 with your counsel because I notice, and it has been observed by my

8 colleagues, that no note has been passed. We have the usher available to

9 pass whatever notes you have to your counsel. You need only raise your

10 hand, and the usher will collect your note and pass it to your counsel.

11 So don't feel inhibited.

12 Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I

14 understood. There was no need for me to pass any papers so far.

15 Thank you.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I recall

18 correctly, this was assigned an exhibit number.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: What? Yes. We assigned an exhibit number. Yes.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon.

21 Q. Mr. Simic, can you draw the part of the road that you had

22 initially marked on the photograph, at least approximately? Can you

23 depict it on the sheet of paper before you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Please. At the beginning of those two lines, could you show where

Page 6192

1 Lukavica is?

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. When -- at which point on that road do you begin to see Debelo

4 Brdo?

5 A. Next to a forest there, next to a -- outside a tower in Zlastiste.

6 Q. Mark it, please.

7 A. This is the Zlatiste tower.

8 Q. Mark it with a K, for Kula tower.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. Can you tell me, in those days, how many times was General

11 Milosevic on this road?

12 A. We went to that observation point, I believe, every day for two or

13 three days.

14 Q. And what happened to General Milosevic on that road?

15 A. He was wounded. That was in mid-May. I don't recall the exact

16 date. He was wounded on the observation point which was to the right from

17 the road, if you are going from Lukavica.

18 Q. Can you draw the place where that observation point was relative

19 to this tower? How far was it from the tower and on which side of the

20 road?

21 A. This is the observation point.

22 Q. Put an S there.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. What did it look like, this observation point?

25 A. It was dug into the ground, and on the outside it was boarded up.

Page 6193

1 And there were -- it was boarded up on top as well and covered with soil.

2 It was on the right-hand side of the road, if you are going from Lukavica,

3 just a couple of metres --

4 Q. Wait a minute. It was dug into the ground. But if we are looking

5 at the road, was it level with the road?

6 A. It was just a couple of metres above the road, but it was dug half

7 a metre or maybe one metre into the ground.

8 Q. Just wait a minute. Just wait for the question, please.

9 Who was at that moment inside the tower, or rather, in the

10 observation point when he was wounded?

11 A. The general and the staff officers.

12 Q. And where were you? Show us the place where you were.

13 A. In the communicating trench, outside the observation tower.

14 Q. Outside, meaning in front?

15 A. Behind. Behind, next to the road, behind the observation point.

16 Q. Please mark the location where you were standing with the letter?

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. And apart from the staff officers at the observation post, where

19 were the soldiers?

20 A. The soldiers were on the road, along the side of the road.

21 Q. Could you please mark that.

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. Thank you. Why did you put in this -- this kind of line?

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] And just a moment, Judge Harhoff

25 has a question.

Page 6194

1 JUDGE HARHOFF: I have lost my orientation on your drawing. Can

2 you please indicate where north is?

3 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Could you put an arrow, pointing towards the

5 north, please.

6 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. Simic, I have made a mistake. The first question I should

10 have asked you is: What can you actually see from the observation post

11 from that point where you actually look?

12 A. You can see Kovacici, parts of the town, the brickworks, Pofalici,

13 all the way down to the Miljacka, Hum, and Zuc.

14 Q. Could you please tell us what direction is it in terms of points

15 of the compass, north, south, east?

16 A. I think it's in a northerly direction.

17 Q. Could you please draw a line from the observation post.

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. And could you please mark it with F.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. You can mark it with N for north, but F is fine.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Judge Harhoff, may I continue?

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes. I understood the drawing to indicate that

24 the direction of the road was coming from Lukavica, which is the arrow at

25 the bottom of the screen; is that correct? So you're coming from

Page 6195

1 Lukavica, moving east on the road.


3 JUDGE HARHOFF: And you have the city down on the right side.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] To the left, to the left, from

5 the direction of Lukavica. Perhaps the witness could just mark where Pale

6 is, in what direction. And now the witness can perhaps give us an

7 answer.

8 Q. If you're going in the direction from Lukavica, could you please

9 mark that with an L. So the first arrow is marked with an L. Could you

10 then mark a P the letter up -- the arrow up there.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. So if you're going from Lukavica, where is Sarajevo now?

13 A. To the left.

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] If anything is not clear yet, I

16 can do whatever I can to clarify it.

17 Q. But now we have come to this broken line here. So the soldiers

18 were there, and you said that they were there where the broken line is.

19 Why is the broken?

20 A. It was the defence of Zlatiste.

21 Q. Who had a better line of sight towards Sarajevo, the soldiers or

22 the staff officers?

23 A. The staff officers.

24 Q. What kind of weapons were there in those moments?

25 A. Infantry weapons.

Page 6196

1 Q. And what happened there on one -- one day, as you just told us?

2 A. In mid-May, the general was wounded. I don't recall the exact

3 date, but he was wounded at the observation post. He was hit -- the

4 observation post was hit from the direction of the town, maybe Pofalici, I

5 don't know exactly, and the general was wounded.

6 Q. Do you know what kind of a round hit the observation post?

7 A. I learned later, about an hour or two later, that it was hit by a

8 tank.

9 Q. How?

10 A. Well, an officer explained that on the basis of the fragments that

11 remained after the shell hit the observation post, that it was actually a

12 tank shell.

13 Q. What did you first pay attention to from the position where you

14 were?

15 A. When the observation post was hit, some ten seconds later, I

16 rushed inside. I saw all of them there. There was smoke, there was dust,

17 and there was blood on the general's face. I carried him out. There

18 another building next to the observation post. There was the medical

19 service there.

20 Q. Could you please mark it.

21 A. So this is where the medical station was. I brought him there, he

22 was given treatment for 20 to 30 minutes, and they were telling him that

23 he had to go to hospital. He refused to go, and then they treated this

24 injury that he had. It was an eye injury, a head injury, in other words.

25 And then after some 60 minutes, he was back at the observation post. That

Page 6197

1 was all on the same day, with a bandage around his head and a patch on his

2 eye.

3 Q. And how long did you stay there on that day?

4 A. Until late at night.

5 Q. Was anyone else injured?

6 A. Yes, but I don't remember. I knew those people, but I don't

7 remember their names now. One of the soldiers had sustained serious

8 injuries, and some officers were also hurt.

9 Q. Could you please tell me from those positions where you were -- I

10 have to repeat this question. From the observation post and from the

11 positions manned by the soldiers along the road, how well could you see

12 the town of Sarajevo?

13 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi.

15 MR. WAESPI: As rightly observed by Mr. Tapuskovic, the questions

16 have been asked and answered before, and the second time the witness made

17 the distinction. And, in fact, the question was distinguished into what

18 the soldiers saw and what the observation point was able to look at.

19 So to group now those two issues into one question is not helpful,

20 I suggest.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. My question was -- my

22 question was what he could see. Who had the better line of sight and he

23 replied, but now I'm asking him what he could see.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay. Well, let us ask him that.

25 From the observation post, what could you see?

Page 6198

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just parts of the town across the

2 Miljacka, Pofalici, Kosevo, those parts of the town from the Miljacka.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: And from the positions manned [Realtime

4 transcript read in error "marked"] by the soldiers on the road, what could

5 you see?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Even less from there, because the

7 observation post was about a couple of metres higher than the road.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: My question should have read from the positions

9 "manned" by the soldiers.

10 Judge Mindua has a question.

11 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Sir, I have a question that calls

12 for a clarification. I can see the sketch that you drew for us. The

13 upper part that goes from Lukavica to Pale, I can see the observation

14 post. But can you please tell me where exactly is the confrontation line?

15 In other words, can you please tell me where the BH army lines would be on

16 this sketch?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This is Debelo Brdo, the

18 positions at Debelo Brdo.

19 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Those are the BH army positions?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, at Debelo Brdo.

21 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] And the confrontation line?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From Debelo Brdo to the road, there

23 were skirmishes there, exchanges of fire between the two sides.

24 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] The gist of my question is: I want

25 to see where the confrontation line was in relation to the town of

Page 6199

1 Sarajevo itself. And, also, in order to be able to understand where fire

2 was opened, and from which position this observation post was targeted and

3 hit, could you please clarify that, or do you believe that you've

4 clarified everything that you could?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The observation post was hit from

6 the direction of Pofalici. This is the direction that I marked with F.

7 So this was the direction from which the observation post was hit. That's

8 the direction of Pofalici, Kosevo, and the brickworks. And Debelo Brdo,

9 this is where the BH army had its positions.

10 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, to clarify this

12 issue that Judge Mindua has insisted on, I first have to complete this

13 sketch.

14 Q. So could you, Witness, please mark the road, the length of the

15 road, and indicate the length from which the Republika Srpska army was

16 operating. How -- what length would that be approximately?

17 A. About 350 metres.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have to remark that this is

19 actually much easier to understand if you put this sketch in this position

20 horizontally, and could this please be admitted into evidence as a Defence

21 exhibit.

22 Q. Let me just -- let us just determine where the shell had come

23 from, the direction from which the shell had come?

24 A. From the direction of Kosevo, this is the line that I drew.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like this to be admitted

Page 6200

1 into evidence. Could this be admitted into evidence, Your Honours?

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, I was just considering that the

4 last X that he put, to denote the direction from which a shell came,

5 perhaps something should be there to say that this is what it means,

6 because it is really just a X. When we come to review the evidence, it

7 would be useful to have something there to say what it means.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you're right.

9 That's exactly what my colleague suggested. Let him now just draw a line

10 from the direction of Sarajevo -- or rather, an arrow. Right.

11 Q. Mark it with R.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Waespi.

13 MR. WAESPI: Yes. I think the witness testified he believed it

14 came from Pofalici, so perhaps a P for Pofalici would make a word record.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Yes, then. P for Pofalici.

16 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 Q. But, Mr. Simic, you marked Debelo Brdo. How far are Pofalici

19 behind that red circle that you drew in response to Judge Mindua's

20 question? How far from there was it to Pofalici?

21 A. A kilometre or two.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we save this drawing as a

23 Defence exhibit now?


25 THE REGISTRAR: As D209, Your Honours.

Page 6201

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in order for the

2 issue that Judge Mindua insisted on to be clear, we have to have back the

3 photograph 02930. That's a 65 ter number. We must have it back and look

4 at it again, but I would like a clear one, clear of markings.

5 Q. Mr. Simic, now could you draw a line to show us where the

6 positions of the VRS were. Please draw a line.

7 A. I can't. I don't have a pen.

8 Q. Now, please mark it with an S.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. Now draw a line to show where the BH army was.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. Were those the separation lines, the confrontation lines?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. This area in between, what about that?

15 A. It was empty; there was nothing. It was like a buffer zone, a

16 meadow.

17 Q. Thank you. So fire came from those two lines?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. Could you mark the second line, the BH army line, with a word A --

20 with a letter A?

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. Would you just tell the Judges whether these houses we see there

23 existed at the time of the conflict?

24 A. Not that I remember.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] May I tender this photograph as

Page 6202

1 well as a Defence exhibit.


3 THE REGISTRAR: As D210, Your Honours.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Could you tell me what happened in the days that followed?

6 General Milosevic was wounded. What happened between the two sides in the

7 days that followed, that May?

8 A. In the days that followed, intensive fighting continued, all the

9 way until the end of the month.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we've now come to

11 the point where that brief document becomes relevant, the one for which I

12 don't have a translation which is only half a page. A document that is

13 ease to interpret, and that I would like it present to this witness. I

14 suppose the Prosecution already has it.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let's proceed. Let's see whether we can

16 get along with it, and whether there is any prejudice to the Prosecution.

17 So let it be placed then on the ELMO.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] DD00-3189.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi.

20 MR. WAESPI: Yes. We have received seven, eight different

21 documents, and I see it now on display. I really do not understand why,

22 if only one very short document, is it used with this witness. It can be

23 translated. In fact, I did offer to the Defence on Friday that we can

24 translate any documents they -- they indicate to us, and we are happy to

25 do that. And it's just not useful now for everybody in the courtroom who

Page 6203

1 doesn't speak Serbo-Croatian in order to be faced with this situation.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Let us proceed with it.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Simic, could you read the heading and this document and tell

6 the Court whether the document reflects what happened to General Dragomir

7 Milosevic at that observation point. Can you read it aloud?

8 A. "Certificate." "Certificate, to the effect that" --

9 Q. You didn't read it exactly the way it was written.

10 A. "Certificate, to certify that Dragomir, son of Milorad Milosevic,

11 Major-General, serving at military post box 7598 Sarajevo, was wounded on

12 17 May, 1995, in the course of combat activities on the Bosut

13 installation in the broader area of Zlatiste. He was wounded as a result

14 of a direct hit from a tank gun on the structured observation post, in

15 which the aforementioned person was leading combat activities. As a

16 result of the explosion and shell fragments, he sustained a serious injury

17 to his right eye."

18 Q. Does this document, dated 28th August, reflect what happened on

19 that day?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. While we're on that subject --

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, you're now 15 minutes beyond the

23 hour and a half that was allotted.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I will do my best to finish very

25 soon, Your Honours.

Page 6204

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. But you could bypass a document like this.

2 Its relevance, it appears to me, is questionable.

3 Let's move on.

4 Yes, Mr. Waespi.

5 MR. WAESPI: But since we're on the document, can it be reflected

6 on the record that it dates, 1996, if I see that correctly, 28th August

7 1996. And just to who signed the document, so it -- we have a meaningful

8 record.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will not tender

10 it.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is it a post-dated document?

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, what I can tell you

15 is this: This is just an introduction. This document is accompanied by

16 medical documentation. In order to exercise certain rights, later, this

17 document was issued. As for the medical file accompanying this document,

18 I will try to have it translated and ask translators to do it myself.

19 This is followed by the medical file opened from the moment when he

20 reported for treatment. This document alone, without the medical file,

21 does not have great value, but the medical file exists. And it confirms,

22 indeed, all of this, and it is very clear on all matters that are relevant

23 to you.

24 As for the witness, I just wanted to take the witness back to that

25 date. He said he didn't remember it very well and I accept that, and I

Page 6205

1 also accept that this is of no great probative value. It is not

2 post-dated so much, as it was issued on the basis of an earlier medical

3 file. The medical file is self-explanatory, and it was drafted by the

4 teams who treated Mr. Milosevic.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: What would be the relevance to the injury to

6 Mr. Milosevic in relation to the charges in the indictment?

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Among other things, although this

8 might evolve into a legal issue later, this witness could tell us when the

9 accused went to receive treatment and for how long he was absent from the

10 separation line, and how long he was in treatment.

11 And there are a couple of more questions that he could answer to

12 show that after a while, General Milosevic had to leave and to stay in

13 Belgrade for treatment for about a month before returning to the front

14 line.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, very well. Move on.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I just try to

18 explain one more thing?

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, no. The explanation we find is sufficient,

20 so move on.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation].

22 Q. Mr. Simic, could you tell us briefly about the period of time that

23 followed? What happened after the month of May? What followed in May,

24 June, July, all the way up to August? If you can only be very brief.

25 A. In mid-June 1995, offensives against Trnovo and the Nisic plateau

Page 6206

1 started. They lasted for about 40, 45 days, all the way up to the

2 beginning of August. For the duration of those offensives, we were in the

3 field daily. I would take the general every day to Nisic or Trnovo. At

4 any rate, he was outside the corps command.

5 However, his eye, where he sustained the injury, was giving him

6 more and more trouble, and the infection spread to the other eye. So

7 sometime in the beginning of August, I took him by car to Belgrade to be

8 admitted into a hospital. When I came back home, it was sometime in the

9 first half of September. I went home to my mother's house, and a month

10 later I was told to pick up the general at Han Pijesak, which I did, and

11 drove the general back to Lukavica.

12 Q. Thank you. So how long was he absent from the combat positions?

13 A. About a month, if my memory serves me right.

14 Q. Where did you collect him, and where did you take him?

15 A. I pick the him up at the barracks in Han Pijesak, and from there I

16 drove him to Lukavica. The corps command building was damaged by

17 shelling. It was unusable, and from there I took him to the forward

18 command post.

19 Q. So when he came back, what had happened to the command post?

20 A. The barracks where the command was situated was destroyed by

21 shelling -- sorry, by NATO air-strikes. It was already evacuated. It was

22 not completely destroyed, but it was damaged.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

25 Thank you, Mr. Simic.

Page 6207

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi, I think we have two or three minutes

2 before the break. I think we should take it.

3 MR. WAESPI: If I could take good use of these two minutes, if you

4 want me to.


6 Cross-examination by Mr. Waespi.

7 Q. Good morning, Mr. Simic.

8 A. Good morning.

9 Q. I just have a few questions for you just before the break.

10 The first one relates to the function of your superior, Captain

11 Ljubisa Milic. I think it was in 1991 or 1992. Can you tell what his job

12 was?

13 A. Commander Ljubisa Milic was the commander of the police company,

14 all the way up to May 1992. Sometime in May 1992, I took him to Han

15 Pijesak and he left.

16 Q. And that was the military police company within the brigade?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And can you remind us, again, of the name of that brigade?

19 A. 216th Mountain Brigade.

20 Q. Commanded by Dragomir Milosevic, at that time a colonel?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So, at that time, he had a military police company at his

23 disposition, and just quickly turning to 1994, 1995. There was also a

24 military police unit at the disposition of now the corps commander,

25 Dragomir Milosevic; is that correct?

Page 6208

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And I think it's a battalion, not just a company, a whole

3 battalion?

4 A. Correct. It was a battalion, MP battalion, within the

5 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

6 Q. And who was the commander after that military police battalion?

7 A. When I arrived, the commander was Vuko Cvoro. I believe he was a

8 captain, maybe a major. I can't remember.

9 Q. A competent officer?

10 A. The same day that I arrived at the battalion, of the military

11 police in Lukavica, I was assigned to be the driver of the corps

12 commander. So I met with Cvoro very rarely, because we had our own

13 aide-de-camp who was my immediate superior.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: What was the question you asked, because it is

15 not reflected.

16 MR. WAESPI: Whether he was a competent officer?

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: It is not reflected in the transcript. We have

18 two answers.


20 Q. Yes. I believe you answered the question. You only had minimal

21 contact with this gentleman, the commander of the military police

22 battalion, so you can't really talk much about this -- this commander. Is

23 that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi, we take the break now.

Page 6209

1 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 12.44 p.m.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Waespi.

4 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 Q. Mr. Simic, let's talk about a couple of other persons you

6 mentioned this morning. The first gentleman you mentioned was a

7 Lieutenant Dobrilovic, and I believe you said he was Dragomir Milosevic's

8 assistant or aide-de-camp, ADC; do you remember that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And I believe it was him who gave you your orders for the day,

11 your assignments; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Apart from that, what general role did Lieutenant Dobrilovic have?

14 A. Lieutenant Dobrilovic had the role of issuing us with our daily

15 tasks and passing on orders which he had probably received from the

16 commander.

17 As for the rest, I don't know what else it was that he did.

18 Q. But he wouldn't accompany you and the commander on your trips to

19 the field?

20 A. No, no. Or very seldom. On occasion, we would spend a few days

21 at a time at the forward command post; and as far as I can remember, he

22 stayed with us on two or three occasions, provided it was planned for to

23 us stay there for a few days.

24 Q. So there were instances where you would spend several days outside

25 of Lukavica without returning in the evenings?

Page 6210

1 A. Yes, a few times.

2 Q. How did the commander, General Milosevic, keep abreast of what was

3 happening at Lukavica headquarters during these absences?

4 A. I don't know that, and I wasn't in a position to know.

5 Q. Did -- do you know Mr. Miljevac, who was a major, an operations

6 officer within the SRK Corps Staff?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Would he accompany sometimes the commander with or without you to

9 trips on to the front lines?

10 A. Yes. He as well as some other staff officers from the corps

11 command would go in the field with the commander.

12 Q. Can you give us the names of some of these other staff officers

13 from the corps who would go in the field with the commander?

14 A. I can't recall any specific names, but I do remember their ranks.

15 For the most part, these were colonels, lieutenant-colonels, and higher

16 ranking officers who worked at the corps command, of the Sarajevo-Romanija

17 Corps, that is.

18 Q. And if you don't recall their names, do you recall their functions

19 within the Corps Staff?

20 A. I don't remember anyone specific for the Corps Staff. I know that

21 the security part was representative, but I don't know about anything

22 else. I was in a different room in a different wing of the building when

23 I spent my time there. The commander was in the other part of the

24 building. I knew Miljevac by chance because he is a distant cousin of

25 mine on my mother's side.

Page 6211

1 Q. Let talk a little bit about these visits to the front lines, as

2 you have explained to us this morning.

3 You told us, I think on page 28, that you would go into the

4 command post of, I assume, one of the subordinate brigades; is that

5 correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Would you personally stay at the car, or would you follow the

8 commander when he goes on to one of these brigade commands?

9 A. When I was alone, when there were no colleagues of mine, when

10 there were three of us, if I was driving, I usually stayed in the car.

11 However, if I was guarding the general, then I would escort him all the

12 way to the entrance of the command or to the entrance of a facility, and I

13 would stay in front during the time of the meeting.

14 Q. So you wouldn't go inside the command post, but you would stay

15 outside providing security?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And if you were out in the field accompanying your commander,

18 providing security, there was another driver then?

19 A. Not always. We would leave the car either in front of the command

20 or at the point that we were able to reach by car; and from that moment

21 on, we would leave. I would leave with the general. If there was no

22 other driver, I would have to guard him.

23 Q. Leaving the car alone, basically?

24 A. Either in front of the command or at the nearest point of

25 approach. If we were supposed to leave the car by itself, we would

Page 6212

1 usually get a soldier either from the command post or the brigade command

2 within the area of responsibility, in order to stay by the vehicle and

3 guard it. Sometimes even as many as two would guard the vehicle. We

4 never left the car alone.

5 Q. Incidentally, what kind of cars did you use? Was it always the

6 same, or were there different cars?

7 A. Two vehicles: A passenger car and an off-road one, depending on

8 the type of terrain. Depending on that, we would choose which vehicle to

9 use on that day.

10 Q. Can you give us the makes of the passenger car and the off-road

11 car?

12 A. Passenger because was a Peugeot, and the off-road one was with a

13 Jeep of sorts. I think it was a Toyota.

14 Q. Did you or the general have a Puch as well, P-u-c-h?

15 A. We only got the Puch in 1995, towards the end, when the Peugeot

16 was destroyed. It was hit by a shell; and after that, we were given a

17 Puch. I believe it was sometime in 1995. It was a military vehicle.

18 Q. Can you give us the licence plates of those three cars: The

19 Peugeot, the Toyota, and the Puch. It was a long time ago. But perhaps

20 since you were driving these cars all the time, you might remember?

21 A. I don't remember that. The only thing I can remember is that the

22 plates were military, that they belonged to the VRS, but I can't recall

23 the numbers or the letters. It's been a long time.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can you tell us where you're going, Mr. Waespi.

25 MR. WAESPI: Yes. Perhaps the next question might be relevant.

Page 6213

1 Q. Did you keep vehicle logs of your trips to the front lines? Did

2 you fill in at the end of each trip where you went to and, you know, what

3 kind of fuel you would spend, when returning to fill up the car? Did you

4 keep that kind of record?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And where would these records be right now.

7 A. I really don't know. After the war I started working, and I can't

8 tell you anything about such documents.

9 Q. But there is a record, if it still exists, of every single trip

10 you would have made with General Milosevic during the time you were his

11 driver?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MR. WAESPI: We can move on to next issue, unless you have a

15 question, Judge Harhoff?

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Are you finishing with this subject of the car.

17 MR. WAESPI: Yes.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Then what was the purpose of it.

19 MR. WAESPI: Well, we heard a couple of testimonies from

20 Mr. Veljovic and from this witness as well about various trips to certain

21 headquarters and other locations interesting locations. And if we had the

22 vehicle logs, that would be a way to ascertain the credibility of the

23 witnesses and, indeed, get a record of the track, the command of the SRK

24 would follow. Vehicles logs proved invaluable in other cases. Less in

25 this case, but it still prove a great record.

Page 6214

1 And if the Defence, perhaps through another witness, would furnish

2 these vehicle logs, that would be a good way to corroborate some of these,

3 I would say, unsupported allegations that their witnesses are saying. I'm

4 not saying they are wrong. I'm just saying it would be interesting to see

5 the actual vehicle logs, detailing where the SRK commander went to on any

6 given day.

7 JUDGE HARHOFF: But are you disputing the fact that General

8 Milosevic was regularly, frequently in the field, or are you questioning

9 the frequency of his visits, or what is the purpose?

10 MR. WAESPI: Not at all. But it is an additional fact for the

11 Prosecution to assess the evidence in its all. There are couple of points

12 where we think General Milosevic has been and for which we don't have

13 independent corroboration, and maybe the vehicle logs would ascertain

14 that. And if the gentleman had the vehicle log with him today, and there

15 was no reason for him to do that, of course, we would be able to go to a

16 specific entry on a specific day and figure out what happened. That's the

17 general purpose.

18 But the Prosecution doesn't dispute, because we have heard it for

19 several witnesses that the general Milosevic went to the front lines, and

20 I'm going to follow-up on exactly this issue right now.

21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Then please proceed.


23 Q. Witness, during a couple of these visits, or I take the majority

24 of them, you said he has met -- the general has met with soldiers; is that

25 correct?

Page 6215

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you told us that he would be talking to them, and they would

3 engage in conversations.

4 A. Yes. But he would stay in the trenches briefly only with the

5 soldiers.

6 Q. Would he also talk to officers, to commanders, in your presence?

7 A. No. Not in the car either. Never.

8 Q. Now, from the conversations you might have overheard between the

9 commander and the soldier, what was your impression about the command

10 style of the general Milosevic?

11 A. My impression was often that he talked to the soldiers as if we

12 were talking to his own children. Every time he would go to see them in

13 the trenches, he would, "Take care of yourselves, be on guard, observe,"

14 and this what he often said when I was close to him and when I was able to

15 hear what he was saying.

16 Q. Did you get an impression that he was respected by his soldiers?

17 A. Yes. Yes.

18 Q. And did you encounter any instances during the time you

19 accompanied him that a soldier would disobey to any orders of General

20 Milosevic or act in disrespect?

21 A. I never heard him issue any orders, but I never saw any soldier

22 being disobedient or anyone who would treat the general with disrespect.

23 It never happened in my presence.

24 Q. Thank you. Let's move on to a very, very brief issue. The

25 Defence mentioned that the TEZ, total exclusion zone, which prohibited to

Page 6216

1 have heavy weapon within a certain range, 20 kilometres. Do you remember

2 having been asked about that this morning?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you know what triggered the imposition of that total exclusion

5 zone? Why did the international community start to talk to the two

6 warring factions and try to get the heavy weapons out of Sarajevo? Do you

7 know which event triggered that agreement?

8 A. I don't know much about it. But as for the pullout of the heavy

9 pieces, I was told stories by other soldiers. They told me how difficult

10 it was to pull those weapons out. That's how I learned that they were

11 supposed to take heavy weaponry out. I discussed that with the soldiers

12 who were involved in that.

13 Q. Did these soldiers also tell you that on the 5th of February,

14 1995, there was a shelling -- 1994, there was a shelling at the

15 marketplace in Sarajevo which caused 64 casualties among civilians of more

16 than 100 people, and this was, in fact, what triggered all the

17 negotiations to have the heavy weapons moved out of Sarajevo? Did you

18 hear about that as well?

19 A. I heard that through the media. The soldiers that I talked to and

20 I just mentioned a minute ago never discussed that.

21 Q. But you heard about this incident from the media?

22 A. From the media.

23 Q. What kind of media would you consult?

24 A. Usually, I listened to the radio in the car. Depending on the

25 area, we would try and locate a radio stations, so we listened to Radio

Page 6217

1 Sarajevo or any other station that we could listen to. I don't know what

2 their names were at the time. I guess there was Radio Republika Srpska as

3 well. Depending on the terrain, we listened to whatever radio station we

4 could tune in to.

5 Q. And by "we," you mean Commander Dragomir Milosevic when he was

6 driving with you?

7 A. No. Dragomir Milosevic wasn't there in earlier 1994. I think you

8 said February. No, no. When the general drove in the car with me, we

9 also listened to the radio, irrespective of what the radio station was

10 and, as I said, depending on the area we were at the moment.

11 Q. And what was the radio reporting about when you were listening to

12 the radio, if you recall after such a long time?

13 A. I really can't recall. It's been more than ten years. I was

14 young at the time, and I preferred to listen to some music in the car. I

15 didn't like listening to the news much, unless they were on once I would

16 turn the radio on.

17 Q. Okay. Let's move on to a few other issues.

18 The first one relates to Debelo Brdo, and I believe you mentioned

19 that the ABiH hold or held Debelo Brdo at that time. Do you remember

20 having said that? Do you also remember that there was, in fact, an

21 UNPROFOR observation point on top of Debelo Brdo, and that the ABiH had

22 positions which were lower to that top.

23 A. I remember there was some structures on Debelo Brdo; but I also

24 know that every day when we were passing, there were combat activities and

25 there was fire from Debelo Brdo in the direction of Zlastiste.

Page 6218

1 Q. Yes, but my question was: Do you know that there was an UNPROFOR

2 observation point on top of Debelo Brdo.

3 A. I can't remember for sure. I believe there was some sort of

4 observation post, some sort of structure on Debelo Brdo. I think it could

5 have been UNPROFOR. At any rate, it was an international force.

6 Q. How do you know there were ABiH forces at Debelo Brdo? Did you

7 visit these regions during the relevant time-period, or did somebody else

8 tell you?

9 A. The soldiers who were there in their positions on the road told

10 me. At Zlatiste, they would tell me where the fire is coming from

11 currently, that I have to pass through quickly, and with my headlights

12 off. Once, I even stopped specifically to ask them, and the soldiers who

13 were there in their positions on the line at Zlatiste by the road told me

14 to -- what to watch out for.

15 Q. So these soldiers from the SRK had some information about where

16 the ABiH positions were, which they relayed then to you.

17 A. They would just tell me from where fire was coming at them, from

18 the Debelo Brdo; but where exactly, I didn't know. They just explained to

19 me from which direction fire was coming from. They said it was Debelo

20 Brdo, and they told me to be careful to watch out.

21 Q. So, in fact, these soldiers had some knowledge about what was

22 happening in front of them, as they are supposed to as good soldiers.

23 They weren't just sitting in the woods being able to see nothing. Is that

24 correct?

25 A. I don't know how they knew it, but there was shooting; and when I

Page 6219

1 talked to those soldiers, they told me the fire was constant against them.

2 On the left-hand side, when you go from Lukavica to the left of the road,

3 there was soldiers in that section of the road, soldiers of the VRS, the

4 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

5 Q. Yes. We have seen that. That was Exhibit D209. I believe you

6 indicated in a dotted line where the soldiers were located facing

7 Sarajevo. Do you remember that?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, with your leave, I'd like to show that

10 photo which we used with Witness Veljovic to this witness. I think it's

11 one of the positions this gentleman might be remember. It's not on my

12 list of exhibits to be used with this witness, but I ask for your leave to

13 do that because I couldn't anticipate that this witness would talk about

14 that.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let it be shown.

16 MR. WAESPI: If Prosecution Exhibit 749 be retrieved, please.

17 Q. And while that is being done, you said, in relation to May 1995,

18 you went with the general, General Milosevic, a number of times to that

19 observation point at Zlatiste. Do you remember that?

20 A. Yes. Two or three times before he was wounded, we are at the

21 observation post at Zlatiste.

22 Q. Now, Mr. Simic, if you could look at your screen in front of you.

23 Is that one of the positions alongside Lukavica-Pale road, which would be

24 manned by the SRK soldiers? You can see woods left and right, and you can

25 see one of these dirt, small dirt hills just in front of this person. Is

Page 6220

1 that one of the points alongside the Pale-Lukavica road that you might

2 recall from that time?

3 A. No. I don't see the road here. If I could see the road, then I

4 could explain. But I can't locate it here, and I cannot even understand

5 from which side this was photographed.

6 Q. If I suggest to you that this -- this picture was taken just a

7 couple of metres besides the Lukavica-Pale road, and that can you see on

8 your left side the beginning of Debelo Brdo, would that assist you in

9 determining where this location was?

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic is on his feet.

11 To say what, Mr. Tapuskovic?

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe

13 Mr. Waespi should not testify himself. If he said if the road were just a

14 couple of metres from this point, would that ring true. Mr. Waespi is

15 suggesting that only a few metres from here, there is the road. On what

16 basis? If the -- what the witness said was if I could locate the road

17 here, then I could explain. We cannot say -- I mean, I don't see on which

18 basis anyone can say that just a few metres behind this man the road runs.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, if I can just make one small point.


22 MR. WAESPI: This is cross-examination. I can put to the witness

23 a proposition for I which I have credible basis, and this is -- this photo

24 was taken alongside the Pale-Lukavica road, and the witness can accept it

25 or not.

Page 6221

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: You're quite right. Yes. In cross-examination,

2 of course, you can do that. I was just wondering whether can you take it

3 any further.

4 But let us hear from him, yes.


6 Q. Mr. Simic, if I suggest to you that this photo was taken alongside

7 the Lukavica-Pale road, just a couple of metres above, because there were

8 dominant positions, just where Debelo Brdo starts to rise, would you

9 accept that, and would that be one of the positions you and the soldiers

10 alongside the road might have looked at in 1994/1995?

11 A. No. I cannot orient myself, and I cannot understand from which

12 spot this could have been taken.

13 Q. Very well. But you testified before the break that from the

14 vantage point at Zlatiste, you could see part of Kosevo where the stadium

15 was, where the hospital was, Pofalici, and anything north of the Miljacka

16 river. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes. Across Miljacka river, towards Hum.

18 Q. And that's exactly the location you can see in this photo. Would

19 you agree at least with that proposition? You see the Kosevo area?

20 A. I really cannot recognise this.

21 Q. Do you see the Kosevo stadium, football stadium? Do you see that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you take a pen, please, and circle it around so we can orient

24 ourselves and you as well.

25 A. Can we enlarge this?

Page 6222

1 Q. Yes.

2 MR. WAEPSI: That's probably possible, Mr. Registrar.

3 Just the part above the head of the person we see in the

4 forefront. You must take off his pen.

5 Q. Mr. Simic, if you can stop marking right now.

6 Mr. Simic, does it help you now to mark the Kosevo football

7 stadium?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And can you tell us where the hospital was, the Kosevo Hospital?

10 A. I think it's to the right of the stadium.

11 Q. Very well. And just a last point. The Miljacka river would be

12 approximately where?

13 A. Shall I mark it?

14 Q. Yes, please.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. And you mentioned Pofalici. I know it's probably not on here, but

17 can you tell us, approximately, the direction of where Pofalici would be

18 located?

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. Very well. Now, to have it as a meaningful exhibit, can you

21 please have the letter P above for Pofalici, above the arrow you were

22 drawing last.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. The letter M for Miljacka river, alongside the indication where

25 the river is?

Page 6223

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. The letter K for the Kosevo football stadium.

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. And, finally, letter H for the English hospital of where you say,

5 approximately, the hospital was.

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Simic.

8 MR. WAESPI: If that could be tendered as an exhibit,

9 Mr. President.


11 THE REGISTRAR: As P759, Your Honours.


13 Q. Going back to the point we were about to develop when we started

14 to look at this exhibit, Mr. Simic. You said that you would drive General

15 Milosevic up to that observation point at Zlatiste in May 1995. What time

16 in the morning would you leave, and what time in the evening would you

17 return?

18 A. We went early, maybe around 8.00 a.m., and sometimes we would go

19 back during the day, and then go to the observation post in the evening.

20 That was in the month of May, when the general was wounded.

21 Q. At what time in the evening would you be at the observation point?

22 A. I don't remember exactly. Because at the observation post, while

23 there was daylight, they would be inside the observation post; and then

24 next to it, there was another structure where they would spend time until

25 dark -- until dark, when we could safely return to the command.

Page 6224

1 Q. So you would return to the command when it was already dark?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And how was the city observed from that observation point, if you

4 know, when it was already dark?

5 A. When it was dark, the officers were no longer in the observation

6 post but in the structure, the brick structure that was next to the

7 observation post; and then after dark, they would go back to the command.

8 Q. And, again, my question: When it was dark in Sarajevo, how were

9 these officers or whoever observed the city able to observe the city, if

10 you know?

11 A. I don't know if anyone actually observed the town during the

12 night.

13 Q. Let's go to a different subject, and that is the wounding of

14 General Milosevic and his trip to Belgrade.

15 The way I understand your evidence of this morning is you actually

16 accompanied General Milosevic, you drove him to Belgrade. Is that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And, approximately, or perhaps you even know a precise date, when

20 was it that you accompanied the general?

21 A. It was in the first half of August, but I don't remember the exact

22 date.

23 Q. So between the 17th of May, when we know he was injured, and this

24 first half of August, General Milosevic would continue to exercise his

25 function as the corps commander.

Page 6225

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How did you drive the general to Belgrade? Which route did you

3 take?

4 A. Lukavica-Han Pijesak-Zvornik, and that's where we crossed the

5 boarder and then we went to Belgrade.

6 Q. Can you tell a little bit about this border control. Did you have

7 to show, you know, an ID, or how did that occur?

8 A. Yes. We had to have our personal ID. I, as a driver, had it to

9 have a driver's licence, the travel order for the car, and the

10 authorisation to cross into Yugoslavia.

11 Q. And who issued that authorisation to cross into Yugoslavia?

12 A. A service at the Main Staff. For a while, they were issuing such

13 authorisations; and, for a while, you could get it at the command corps,

14 too. But, mostly, it was done by this service at the Main Staff.

15 Q. And in Belgrade, where did you drive the general to?

16 A. I brought the general to the Slavija hotel. There his family took

17 him in. I don't know what happened after that. I went back home, and I

18 spent sometime with my mother in our village.

19 Q. So if I understand you correctly, you brought the general to

20 Belgrade and you, basically, immediately returned back -- back home.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So you don't know what he was doing, with whom he was meeting

23 during his trip in Belgrade?

24 A. No. The entire time, while the general was there, I was with my

25 mother in our village.

Page 6226

1 Q. And then, I believe, you were told that you can pick up the

2 general from Han Pijesak, is that correct, sometime in September?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And, again, if you recall, approximately when that was?

5 A. It was in early September. I don't know exactly when it was, but

6 it was in September. I came to Han Pijesak, and I waited in the barracks

7 in Han Pijesak for the general to arrive.

8 Q. Did he talk to you when he -- when you picked him up at Han

9 Pijesak?

10 A. We talked very seldom, and I don't recall any conversation. I

11 just asked him what the situation was, what his health state was, how --

12 how he was at the time, how -- what was the surgery like, and he said,

13 "Well I'm fine now. Everything is fine." That was the gist of our

14 conversation.

15 Q. And going now from the specifics of this trip back to a general

16 question. Because you just said we talked very seldom, is it also true

17 when you were driving him around that you would hardly go into specifics

18 about what his job was, perhaps personal items?

19 A. No. We didn't talk about anything.

20 Q. You told us about these various trips to the command, to the

21 brigades. Did you also accompany him when he would meet with people from

22 the Serb Sarajevo municipal leaders in Vogosca? Do you remember driving

23 him to meetings in Vogosca?

24 A. I drove the general to the municipal halls, sometimes in Vogosca,

25 sometimes in Ilijas, Pale. And I would always stay in front of the

Page 6227

1 municipal hall if I was on the security detail. And if I was just

2 driving, I would there around the car, near the municipal hall.

3 Q. So you would not follow him into the municipal hall. You would

4 not know whom he would meet there inside the hall?

5 A. No.

6 MR. WAESPI: I have no further questions, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

8 Any re-examination?

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No. No. I don't have any

10 questions.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Simic,that concludes your evidence. Thank you

12 for giving it, and you may now leave.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would like to thank

14 all of you present here.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: The next witness.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Our next witness is Mr. Sinisa

18 Krsman.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 6228

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit. You may be seated.

2 And you may begin, Mr. Tapuskovic.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, I would like to ask you during your

6 testimony to pay attention to the fact that we really have to speak

7 slowly, and could you please focus on the cursor on the monitor and only

8 start speaking when it stops moving, so that we don't have what we call

9 overlap and so that we can deal with all the issues in the examination as

10 quickly as possible. Thank you.

11 Could you please the Judges first your full name?

12 A. My name is Sinisa Krsman.

13 Q. To move quickly through those preliminary issues, you were born on

14 the 17th of December, 1961?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You were born in Sarajevo, Centar municipality, in Zabradze

17 neighbourhood, in Rajlovac?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You graduated from secondary school in 1970 --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 1980.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You were employed in UPI, it's a company, as a salesperson from

23 1984 until the outbreak of the conflict?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you were a salesperson all the time?

Page 6229

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. I would first like to show you a map. That's 65 ter document

3 27228 -- 2782.

4 Well, you can see this map here in front of you. Could you please

5 show where you lived and the place where you were born?

6 A. I can show it.

7 Q. Could you please mark it.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the northern section of the

9 map be enlarged a little bit and scrolled down.

10 Q. Could you please show the location of your house?

11 A. I can show it.

12 Q. And could you please mark it?

13 A. If we could have the map enlarge as little bit, I can pinpoint the

14 very house.

15 My house is right here where it says Bjelica.

16 Q. Could you please mark it?

17 A. Well, here it is.

18 Q. Well, it's not marked. Could you please mark it with the

19 letter K.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. But could you please tell the Judges, have you already testified

22 by the ICTY, just so that the Judges know?

23 A. Yes. I testified before this Tribunal in the Stanislav Galic

24 case, and last year I testified in the case against Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik.

25 Q. Did you at all deal with this map here?

Page 6230

1 A. At that time, we didn't use this map. Other maps were used, and

2 they were not as detailed as this on.

3 Q. And can you now please show the spot where you worked where your

4 company was at the time when the conflict broke out?

5 A. My first -- the first place where I worked was at Skenderija.

6 Q. No, at the time when the conflict broke out?

7 A. When the conflict broke out, my workplace was here. And my entire

8 career I actually worked in various locations, various shops in the town.

9 Q. Could you please mark it with a letter R?

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. What part of town is this? What is characteristic of this part?

12 A. Well, I worked in town, downtown. It was the largest shop there

13 was. It was called the Hipermarket. So this is the urban area.

14 Q. That's what I meant. What I wanted to ask you, in geographical

15 term, what would be the closest feature, natural feature, of the town? In

16 other words, which hills were close to this area?

17 A. Do you mean where I lived?

18 Q. No, where you worked.

19 A. I worked in the city centre, in the urban area. So at Mojmilo or

20 Skenderija, I walls worked in a built up area, urban area. There were

21 buildings there.

22 Q. But when you say at Mojmilo, did you work -- was it at Mojmilo

23 hill itself or where?

24 A. No. It was below Mojmilo, Mojmilo hill, but the entire

25 neighbourhood is called Mojmilo.

Page 6231

1 Q. Could you please tell me, the place where you lived, where you

2 were born, how long have you lived there? How long has your family, your

3 ancestors lived there?

4 A. My family has lived here for more than 300 years. You can see the

5 names, place names, Mijatovici, Remezi, Latosi [phoen]. So these are all

6 old families who had moved there a long, long time ago, and we've lived

7 there for 300 years and, actually, we lived there until the Dayton

8 Agreement.

9 Q. And could you please try and tell us something about one issue.

10 What was the ethnic background of the population living there where your

11 house was? And could you please mark the areas with the predominantly

12 Serb population, but mark it.

13 A. In the area where I lived, it was a predominantly Serb area. From

14 Zuc, from this area here, through Smiljevici, the whole of Zabradze, to

15 the entrance to our village. So this entire area here. And if I may

16 finish, in the Brijesca area, here, these were all Serbs, old families

17 living here.

18 Q. And who were your neighbours and where were they? Again, since we

19 have to bring this up, could you please also give us their ethnic

20 background.

21 A. Well, on this map, you can see this green area here. There are no

22 houses marked here. But in this area here, here, our Muslims neighbours

23 lived. There were about 20.000 of them just before the war. They moved

24 there in 1974 and later; and according to the 1991 census, there were

25 about 20.000 of them.

Page 6232

1 Q. And what were your relations? Were you on good terms with them

2 until the conflict broke out?

3 A. In the village of Smiljevici, there were Muslims and Croats, too.

4 And our relations were impeccable; in other words, people who had lived

5 there for centuries. We were on excellent terms. There were no problems.

6 In the village of Brijesca, there were other Muslims and Croat who had

7 lived there for centuries and we had no problems. But once people started

8 moving in from other areas, problems starting cropping up, primarily

9 because there some tensions. Just before the war broke out, 1991, there

10 was some problems in cafes, all kinds of stories, and this is how things

11 developed until the conflict broke out.

12 Q. Could you please explain to the Judges in -- very briefly, how the

13 first clashes, minor clashes started breaking out, and how did this evolve

14 into what happened in 1992?

15 A. As I said, we really didn't have any problems with those enemy we

16 had known for years, but some things started happening --

17 Q. Could you please slow down.

18 A. But some things started happening that we simply could not

19 comprehend. First of all, a Serb guest at a wedding was killed at

20 Bascarsija. He was killed only because he was carrying a Serb flag. This

21 was something inconceivable to believe us. And then very close to us,

22 sometime in April, an attack on Boseca Kula happened. I can mark it here,

23 and the Patriotic League and the so-called Green Berets hurled grenades on

24 this gas station. It was owned by a rich man by the name of Bosic from

25 our neighbourhood. The pretext was that some Chetniks had been hiding

Page 6233

1 there at the gas station.

2 Then there was an attack on the Pretis defence industry in Vogosca

3 where, again, the Green Berets attacked the factory and tried to seize

4 some weapons. All this engendered some fear among the people. There was

5 some psychological pressure on the people. People were upset, especially

6 in light of the fact that we all had families, children, and we were all

7 so upset that we didn't know what to do.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, it's time for the break. So

9 we'll adjourn until tomorrow.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we just save this so we

11 don't lose this marked copy of the map.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let it be saved.

13 We're adjourned.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

15 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 6th day of

16 June, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.