1 Thursday, 14 June 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton, you are to continue with your

7 cross-examination.

8 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. Thank you, Your Honours.

9 WITNESS: ZORAN SAMARDZIC [Resumed]

10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton: [Continued]

12 Q. Good morning, Mr. Samardzic. I'll have a few more questions for

13 you today, but I don't expect that your time here will last much longer.

14 I'd like to begin with a question picking up on what we left off from

15 yesterday and ask you this: Mr. Samardzic, were there detention

16 facilities in Hadzici where non-Serb civilians were detained against their

17 will?

18 A. As far as I know, there were none. Yesterday I mentioned that

19 most of my time was spent in the kitchen and up there at the front line;

20 therefore, I have no knowledge of this.

21 Q. So you have no knowledge of the fact that at times up to 500

22 non-Serb civilians were detained in the Hadzici sports centre between May,

23 June, July, August, and September 1992?

24 A. As I said, I don't know. I have no knowledge of that, really.

25 Q. And what about the sports centre -- sorry. What about the garage

1 under the municipality building, Mr. Samardzic?

2 A. There's nothing I can say about that. I don't know anything. It

3 would be a waste of time or speculation on my part. I know where the

4 municipal building is, but as for its garage, I guess the municipal

5 vehicles were there. That's all I know.

6 Q. Mr. Samardzic, Hadzici is a rather small town, isn't it, some 3

7 kilometres across?

8 A. Irrespective of that, during that time I was at the front line. I

9 didn't go home. Perhaps I went home once in a week or once in ten days to

10 change my clothes, and we'd usually go down during the night. On

11 occasion, I had to go back immediately or maybe just spend the night in my

12 house and get back first thing in the morning. Therefore, I can't tell

13 you anything about that.

14 MS. EDGERTON: Perhaps I could ask document 65 ter number 03282 be

15 brought up on the screens. 03282, yes, that's it in B/C/S.

16 Q. Mr. Samardzic, do you see the document in your language to the

17 right-hand side screen in front of you?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. Now, Mr. Samardzic, that document dated 22 October 1992 is a

20 stamped directive by Momcilo Mandic, signed directive by Momcilo Mandic,

21 the Bosnian Serb Minister of Justice at that time, addressed to the

22 presidents of Hadzici and Ilidza municipalities and the chiefs of the

23 public security stations. Isn't that correct?

24 A. I know nothing of this. As I said yesterday, I was in the

25 logistics and my only concern was to feed the troops. I have no

1 knowledge of that. I've never seen this document before, and I never knew

2 of its existence. As I said yesterday, I was in the rear. I was in

3 charge of the kitchen, that was to provide meals for the troops of the

4 Army of the Republika Srpska. That's all I can say. I have no knowledge

5 of this.

6 Q. Mr. Samardzic, all I asked you was whether my characterisation of

7 who the addressees of this letter was is correct. Do I have it right? Is

8 this a directive to the presidents of Hadzici and Ilidza municipalities

9 and the chiefs of the SJBs?

10 A. I see this on the screen, I see what it says, but I know nothing

11 of it. I was not part of the municipal authorities. I was in the rear.

12 This may have existed, but I have no knowledge about it. Therefore, my

13 answer is: No, I have no knowledge of it.

14 Q. Now --

15 A. No one from the municipal authorities would ever share this

16 knowledge or information with me.

17 Q. So this letter -- when this letter says: "After a check by the

18 ministry it has been found that 90 ethnic Muslims are imprisoned in the

19 sports centre in Hadzici and the premises of the graphics school in

20 Ilidza," when this letter says this, are you saying that it's wrong or are

21 you saying that you didn't know?

22 A. I'm saying that I didn't know about this. That is my answer.

23 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, I'd like to have this document, if I

24 may, admitted as the next exhibit.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: The witness doesn't know anything about it.

2 MS. EDGERTON: Fine. Fine. I'll withdraw it. It does go to his

3 credibility in any case.

4 Q. Mr. Samardzic, in September of last year, a Trial Chamber of this

5 Tribunal concluded that in 1992 from the month of May, Bosnian Serb forces

6 took over Hadzici town and parts of the municipality and detained mainly

7 Muslim and Croat civilians in the sports centre, the garage under the

8 municipality building, and eight other detention facilities in that

9 municipality under inhumane conditions, mistreated, and sexually abused

10 them. Are you saying that you didn't know of any of these allegations?

11 A. I truly don't know anything about it. I stated that yesterday. I

12 believe I repeated it today. As for this thing saying that the Serbs took

13 over Hadzici in 1992, well we never left and I don't know who it was that

14 we mistreated or abused. When I said yesterday that the non-Serb

15 population or some of them went up to Pazarici to stay with their

16 relatives, that's all I know and I know nothing about this. The Serbs had

17 been in Hadzici. There was nothing to occupy or take over and no one

18 abused others. I said that yesterday. I said that. Some of the

19 non-Serbs were also appointed to distribute humanitarian aid and it was

20 distributed to everyone evenly. There were some Croats there too.

21 Q. Mr. Samardzic, I'd like to move on now. Now, yesterday at page

22 6616 and 17 you talked about an attack on Hadzici on the 12th of May,

23 1992, and described it as a large-scale offensive launched from the

24 direction of Pazarici towards the town. That, apparently, was something

25 you did have knowledge about. Now, then did you hear, since you did have

1 knowledge about this attack, about the take-over by Serb forces with the

2 assistance of JNA forces and the Bosnian Serb police at the settlement of

3 Binjezevo around this time.

4 A. I took part in it. I was a soldier defending the Remontni Zavod.

5 As I said, there was an attack indeed from the direction of Pazarici, the

6 village of Lokava. However, Binjezevo was ours. Serbs on the Serbian

7 police were there but no JNA, there were no JNA troops. As I said

8 yesterday, we organised ourselves, and when I said that there was a

9 large-scale offensive, what I had in mind was that we were attacked by a

10 far numerous force than we were, far more numerous than we were. That's

11 what I had in mind.

12 Q. So you have no knowledge of the targeting of Binjezevo by JNA

13 artillery during the course of that offensive?

14 A. I have no knowledge about that, and I have no knowledge about the

15 JNA taking part in it, because they were simply not in our area, in

16 Hadzici. This is the immediate environs of Hadzici. These are the

17 villages around the outskirts of Hadzici, but there were no JNA troops

18 there.

19 Q. So similarly, you have no knowledge of the fact that people were

20 detained by Bosnian Serb forces following the take-over of Binjezevo?

21 A. I didn't understand your question.

22 Q. Do you have any knowledge of the fact that people were detained by

23 Bosnian Serb forces following the take-over of Binjezevo, non-Serbs?

24 A. No, I don't know anything about that. I keep explaining that I

25 have no knowledge of this or any similar things. Binjezevo is a few

1 kilometres away from the front line where I was. I don't know.

2 Q. So similarly, I suppose, you have no knowledge of the Bosnian Serb

3 attack on the settlement of Musici between the 15th and the 20th of May,

4 1992, and the detention of non-Serb civilians following that attack?

5 A. Again, for the umpteenth time, I have to say that at that time I

6 was in the kitchen of the Remontni Zavod, on the outskirts of town. My

7 basic concern was to prepare food for the troops and that's what I did.

8 Q. Now, also yesterday you spoke about an offensive on 25 May 1992 at

9 page 6620, but it sounds, based on what you're saying, that you actually

10 have no personal knowledge of this offensive of 25 May, isn't that

11 correct, because you were in the kitchen at the time?

12 A. Yes, that is correct. I don't know much about it. All I know is

13 that I was in the kitchen, as I said, there was an offensive that was

14 ongoing, but it involved more people than the first one on the 12th.

15 That's all I know about it.

16 Q. So you wouldn't know then that Muslim forces, in attempting to

17 take over the huge ammunition storage facility at Zunovica, as part of

18 that offensive, suffered 130 killed, would you?

19 A. In Zunovica. There were some military warehouses there at the

20 foot of Mount Igman. There were casualties, but I don't know what the

21 number was. I heard that there were victims and casualties. I was told

22 that by some people who came from the front lines to eat. There were

23 casualties, but I don't know how many. We also sustained some casualties,

24 too, but I can't tell you any more than that.

25 Q. And would you have heard then that Serbs actually retook the

1 depot the following day?

2 A. I don't think it was taken over by anyone else. I don't know

3 whether it was or not. I can't tell you. There was the offensive, losses

4 on both sides -- well, the other side probably suffered more than we did.

5 As for the depot, I don't know. I don't know whether it was ever taken

6 over by the enemy side and whether we managed to regain the control of it

7 again, I don't know.

8 Q. And similarly, sir, and finally, you've never been to the barracks

9 in Pazarici, you testified about that yesterday. Isn't that correct?

10 A. Not during the war. I wasn't in the Pazarici barracks during the

11 war. Before that, in the 1970s, I guess I went there several times as a

12 civilian when there were military exercises going on, 1975, 1976, I was

13 with the reserves, and then I had an occasion to enter the barracks. I

14 was a reserve soldier. I had no particular knowledge of anything. I

15 didn't know what a howitzer is or a gun is, but that's all I know about

16 the barracks.

17 Q. So --

18 A. -- everything else I learned was learned from some of the

19 colleagues who managed to pull-up -- sorry, may I continue?

20 Q. So if I can just guide you a little bit in terms of my questions,

21 so in fact what you affirmed is that you had no personal knowledge about

22 what, if any, weaponry cadets may have left behind on their evacuation

23 from Pazaric barracks. You've only heard this second-hand. Isn't that

24 correct?

25 A. Yes. I was told this by some people, as I said. I was told this

1 by Dobrica Micic and Zivko Tesic, the drivers who took those cadets to the

2 free territory. They told me that they saw some howitzers and guns that

3 were left there, I don't know what the exact calibre was, but they said

4 that there was quite a number of pieces. I don't know what was left and

5 how many, because this is all they told me.

6 Q. So when you say Muslims took what was left, repaired what was

7 there, and there were 152-millimetre howitzers there, that's practically

8 conjecture, isn't it? You have no personal knowledge, apart from what

9 you've heard second-hand?

10 A. As I said, I didn't see it myself, others did. What I know for

11 sure was that one of the people who worked there repairing weaponry for

12 the JNA was exchanged. I don't know exactly when, but it was he who

13 repaired all the malfunctioning weaponry and then they were using them

14 again. I didn't see that, but my friends told me, the ones who took those

15 cadets in a direction unknown to me.

16 Q. Mr. Samardzic, you've never met the accused in this case, have

17 you?

18 A. No.

19 Q. And over the course of your service in the SRK, you've never had

20 occasion to meet any of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps senior staff either,

21 have you?

22 A. The only one was my battalion commander, Radmilo Maksimovic, and I

23 was there in charge of the kitchen, that's all. Of course I had some

24 people there working for me performing their duties, but I never met any

25 senior officials. I was a nobody. I was in the rear. A senior officer

1 had no time to get interested in my problems.

2 Q. Mr. Samardzic, I don't have any other questions for you.

3 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, I followed with great

4 attention the answers that you gave to the Prosecutor, and I noticed that

5 on many occasions you said that you were the last in the hierarchy, at the

6 bottom of the totem-pole. But yesterday, for instance, in answer to many

7 questions you gave lots of details, you gave military details, tactical

8 details. I also notice that you were in the trenches at Kasetici for

9 instance. In Kasetici you were in the trenches and this is what you said

10 yesterday. When I look at the document the Defence showed you on the

11 summary of facts regarding your testimony, it is said that you were, and I

12 will quote in English: [In English] "The commander of the Igman Brigade

13 Logistics Company."

14 [Interpretation] In military terms, a company commander is an

15 important man, you will agree with me. So I would like to ask you this

16 question. First of all, did you have a military rank, did you have a

17 military training? If you had a rank, what was your rank and what were

18 your functions exactly? Because as a company commander in charge of

19 logistics, you should know normally what is the number of soldiers that

20 you have to supply in terms of food and in terms of other supplies, and

21 you should also know who to see, who died. You must have been in charge

22 of finding body-bags, for instance, or make -- of all that. So could you

23 please explain to us what were your military functions with regard to your

24 rank and what were your functions as a company commander?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Never in my life did I have a rank,

1 neither in the JNA nor in the VRS. As for my appointment as the logistics

2 company commander, I was simply in charge of things. I didn't deal with

3 logistics per se. My specialty is preparing food for troops, and I said

4 that on several occasions. I had no rank. I was a commander of the --

5 komandir, in B/C/S, of the logistics company. My sole concern was to

6 provide food for soldiers. In hierarchy I may appear of being of some

7 importance, but my sole task was to care for the food for the VRS troops.

8 I had no other logistics services under me, no medical facilities or

9 anything of that sort. I never had any ranks either in the JNA nor the

10 VRS, and I never dealt with logistics as a whole. I had no quarter-master

11 authority. The only thing I did was run the kitchen. There was no

12 mention of any body-bags or any such thing.

13 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.

14 Mr. Tapuskovic, this document, is it accurate? Is it precise?

15 What do you think of this document, the document that you handed to us?

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge Mindua. I

17 tried yesterday at the very beginning of this witness's testimony to say

18 that, yes, this is our summary; that, yes, this is something we put

19 together based on the information received from investigators. He was

20 what he was. He did take care of logistics in terms of food but had no

21 rank. We may have been slightly imprecise, but it corresponds to the

22 essence of the matter.

23 In my re-direct, if I will be allocated one, I will ask him again.

24 He was in charge of logistics, which is an important matter for any

25 army, but he had to do with food, this being a basic necessity for the

1 survival of soldiers and those in the rear, and maybe one of the most

2 important things for the running of a military organisation. This is what

3 he was in charge, that type of logistics. Other than that, he has no

4 specific knowledge, be it technical or any other, concerning weaponry or

5 any other military activities. All he did was organise a kitchen and

6 provide food for soldiers.

7 And as I said yesterday, he spoke about what he saw and what he

8 observed as a soldier in the trenches. He testified to the operations,

9 but in the trenches themselves he had no other function.

10 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Okay. Thank you very much.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Any re-examination, Mr. Tapuskovic? And I don't

12 want you to dwell on this matter at all. So if that is the only matter,

13 then there should be no re-examination.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have a couple of other things

15 briefly.

16 Re-examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

17 Q. [Interpretation] First of all, did you know whether during the

18 combat operations that there were some prisoners that were taken on either

19 side?

20 A. I have no knowledge of that. I know that some of our people

21 stayed up there, some of which were later wounded and killed. There was a

22 Todorovic guy that I heard of, but other than that I know nothing.

23 Q. Tell me this: When the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps commander was

24 General Milosevic, who were the people who participated in combat

25 operations?

1 A. I didn't understand the question.

2 Q. Who were the people in the trenches during the period when you

3 were preparing food for them --

4 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] People, workers, citizens --

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

7 MS. EDGERTON: It's not an important point, but it's certainly not

8 something that arose from my cross-examination.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Don't answer the question then.

10 Let's move on, Mr. Tapuskovic.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. One last thing. There was mention here and you were put

13 questions, too, about that. The question -- or rather, the matter

14 discussed is that Hadzici is a small town. What can you tell us about

15 that?

16 A. Hadzici is a small town, 27 to 30.000 inhabitants. I think the

17 last census counted 30.000.

18 Q. Which is the nearest location to Hadzici going east, if we move

19 towards the east, what comes next?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. I have no further questions. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Samardzic, that concludes your evidence.

23 Thank you for giving it. You may now leave.

24 [The witness withdrew]

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Your next witness, Mr. Tapuskovic.

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] My next witness is Witness T-31,

2 and he has all sorts of protective measures.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: And I understand we need 20 minutes to have the

4 technical preparations made. Is that so, Mr. Court Deputy?

5 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct, Your Honour, 20 minutes will be

6 sufficient for the technicians to set up the relevant technical --

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. We break for 20 minutes.

8 --- Break taken at 9.31 a.m.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 --- On resuming at 10.03 a.m.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

13 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

15 Before you begin, Mr. Tapuskovic, I note that on your list of

16 exhibits there is no English translation for any of them. I'm speaking

17 about the list of exhibits to be used during the testimony of this

18 witness.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there's just one

20 document that the Defence intends to use with this witness. It is

21 DD003771 and we handed it over to the Prosecution a few days ago, and the

22 Prosecution has had the document translated. We do have a translation of

23 it and it's in e-court.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is it in e-court?

1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, you may proceed.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to thank the Prosecution

4 because that could have been a problem, and could the usher kindly come up

5 and fetch this document with respect to the witness's identity.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender the document

8 under seal.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D231, under

11 seal.

12 WITNESS: WITNESS T-31

13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 Examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, or rather, Witness T-31. Now, while we're

16 going through this -- these personal details, can we do it in private

17 session, please.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session.

19 [Private session]

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17 [Open session]

18 THE REGISTRAR: We are now in open session.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. T-31, we have heard how old you were when all these events began

21 unfolding in Sarajevo. Could you tell us, tell Their Honours, what you

22 remember most vividly from that period, that is to say, the beginning of

23 1992.

24 (redacted)

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4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown

6 the following document 65 ter 7872 -- no, I'm sorry, 2872, it is a map of

7 Sarajevo. And may we zoom-in, please.

8 While I'm dealing with my first few questions, could we please

9 move into private session.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.

11 [Private session]

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11 [Open session]

12 THE REGISTRAR: We are now in open session.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation].

14 Q. Can you tell Their Honours whether you remember roughly how long

15 these events lasted, these conflicts lasted in Sarajevo, overall.

16 A. Well, from 1992 until 1994 or even 1995, until Dayton.

17 Q. And where were you throughout that time?

18 A. In Svrakino which is in the Pavle Goran district until 1996, the

19 2nd of March.

20 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President --

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi.

22 MR. WAESPI: I think it's very important that when the witness

23 talks that the microphone of counsel is not on, and so the witness should

24 also perhaps look at the counsel's microphone. If there is a red light

25 you shouldn't be speaking, otherwise your voice will be heard.

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you for that. So, Mr. Tapuskovic, you have

2 a role to play in that technical matter.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Witness, every time I conclude my question, I'll turn my

5 microphone off, and you should not start speaking before you see that this

6 red light here is turned off.

7 A. Very well.

8 Q. Now I'm going to ask you this once again. Throughout that time,

9 that is to say from 1992, and then you said until the beginning of 1996,

10 you were in the house -- you were in a house in what street? The house

11 you indicated to us first. Is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Yes. Wait until you see everything has been recorded and I will

14 switch off my microphone straight away. So wait before you answer. I now

15 want to ask you this. What happened? What do you remember happening from

16 that period, the period you're testifying about, March/April? In general

17 terms, what can you remember and what can you remember specifically, too?

18 (redacted)

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23 Q. Thank you. Can you tell Their Honours where you were at that

24 point in time when all this was going on and what happened when these

25 people arrived. Could you describe how you experienced this and what you

1 actually saw once it's all been recorded in the transcript and I have

2 switched off my microphone.

3 (redacted)

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8 (redacted) they could take

9 us all to the Viktor Bubanj barracks otherwise.

10 Q. Thank you. And what happened next?

11 A. After a couple of days of mistreating my father and beating him,

12 they brought him back home. But what happened to my brother, we still

13 don't know to this day.

14 Q. Thank you. What was your father's state when he arrived home

15 after several days and what did he tell you about what had happened to

16 him?

17 A. He came back all black and blue. His teeth had been bashed out.

18 He had cuts on his legs, and of course he told us that at the barracks

19 many other people were brought in, Serbs, that is, and that they were also

20 tortured and mistreated in the same way. As for my brother, he said that

21 he was with my brother in one room where they beat him and he lost

22 consciousness, and that was the last time he saw him. And they took my

23 brother away, my father doesn't know where.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: How old was your brother?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was born in 1960, which means he

1 was 32 years old when he was taken off.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Thank you.

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4 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm sorry, we should go into private session if

5 we are going to be dealing with these details. Private session.

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5 [Open session]

6 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session, Your Honour.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Witness, when your father returned, what was life like after that,

9 your father's life, your life, and in general terms your family's life?

10 A. Well, we lived in great fear. In 1993, I started school in the

11 eighth form. I went to school with my friends, but I wasn't that afraid

12 of the shelling and the shooting as I was of -- well, let me say I was

13 afraid that the same would happen to me as happened to my father and my

14 brother.

15 Q. Your brother didn't come back. Did you undertake anything? Did

16 your father do anything to have him return or to see what he could do?

17 A. Well, we were afraid to ask anybody anything, to ask anybody what

18 had happened to him, (redacted)

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21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, that has to be in private session.

22 [Private session]

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16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Witness, with respect to what you heard about your father and your

20 brother, did you come by any direct knowledge as to what happened to other

21 people? Were there other similar events taking place?

22 A. According to what my father said - and he was a living witness

23 from the Viktor Bubanj barracks - the few days he spent there in the

24 Viktor Bubanj camp, there were many other Serbs there who were also

25 maltreated and tortured and even in Gatacka Street, even the Janjic

1 family, an 80-year-old woman was raped and maltreated.

2 I also remember that people were taken from the building to dig

3 trenches. I know that these people did come back, and there were Muslims

4 among them who were not members of the BH army but who went to dig

5 trenches.

6 Q. Thank you. How did your father behave after that? Can you

7 explain what his behaviour and movements were like?

8 A. For a while he never left the house. He didn't even stand in

9 front of the front door. He was terrified. He still feels that terror

10 today, because they would check people's identity papers on the street.

11 And if they saw that somebody was a Serb, they would take them away either

12 to be in the BH army or, of course, they would kill them and do whatever

13 they wanted with them. That's all I can say. I know that I did not feel

14 safe out in the street. I went to school in great fear. As I've just

15 said, I wasn't so much afraid of the shelling and the shooting, as that

16 the same thing might happen to me as happened to my brother and my father.

17 Q. I didn't understand very well what you said about checking

18 people's identity papers. What happened to people if they didn't want to

19 join the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

20 A. The same thing. My opinion is that the only reason my brother was

21 killed was that he refused to join the BH army. I think I've answered

22 that question clearly. All relatively young people, like my brother, if

23 they were stopped in the street and had their papers checked, if they were

24 Serbs, they were taken to the barracks either to join the BH army or

25 probably to suffer the same fate as my brother.

1 Q. The house where you lived in the place that you marked, if we look

2 at its geographical location, what was there around it?

3 MR. WAESPI: Perhaps before the witness answers that, we go into

4 private session.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ex abundanti cautela, yes.

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22 [Open session]

23 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Did you ever manage to settle the property issues concerning

1 ownership of the flat?

2 A. Not yet. It's before the cantonal court in Sarajevo knows, and

3 who knows how long this might last. My parents are now subtenants in

4 Vojkovici, some ten minutes' walk away from the house where I live.

5 Q. Thank you. What happened to your brother's family house which was

6 on that front line you mentioned?

7 A. My brother's house has been destroyed. Only the foundations are

8 left standing.

9 Q. Thank you. In all these months and years, did someone manage to

10 leave Sarajevo, and how, if they did, under the control of the Army of

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina because other parts of the town were under the control

12 of the Army of Republika Srpska?

13 A. Well in the period I was there in Sarajevo under the control of

14 the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, I think very few Serbs were able to cross

15 over to the territory of Republika Srpska, and I think it was only through

16 exchanges that people were able to leave, people who were in camps. There

17 were exchanges on the Brotherhood Unity bridge, and in 1996 we managed to

18 leave crossing that bridge, my mother and sister and I. Before that, we

19 didn't even dare try.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have

21 no further questions.

22 Q. Thank you, Madam.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: I wanted to ask the witness whether she knows of

24 any criminal proceedings being brought against the person who she says was

25 responsible for her brother's death.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I went to the public prosecutor's

2 office in east Sarajevo and made a statement. They were supposed to issue

3 an indictment against those men, but I don't think they ever did.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: When was this?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in 1996 I tried through the

6 International Committee of the Red Cross. I applied everywhere where

7 people said I might be able to learn something about my brother's fate.

8 This was in 1996 and 1997, but to this day I never learned anything and no

9 indictment was ever issued against those men. (redacted)

10 (redacted)

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16 (redacted)

17 You also mentioned another person whom you were told was

18 specifically responsible, but don't mention the name. Don't mention his

19 name. Is that person still alive?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi, as a member of the Office of the

22 Prosecutor, shouldn't an investigation be carried out into this matter to

23 determine whether proceedings should be brought against these people,

24 either at the local level or at the level of the Tribunal?

25 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, I have a couple of points to make on

1 this issue, but I think that can be done after the witness has left. In

2 fact, we do have a couple of documents which I forwarded to the Defence

3 which shows that the Prosecutor -- District of the Prosecutor's Office of

4 the Serbian Sarajevo on 17th of April, 2003, has issued a special report

5 addressing this issue. I don't know where they are, that's three, four

6 years ago. But I can point to that in more detail. I would just like to

7 say to the witness that I have a lot of sympathy for what she and her

8 family went through, and we have no questions for the witness. But I have

9 a few points about procedural issues which I can address after the witness

10 has left, but there is no cross-examination for my part.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 Questioned by the Court:

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Witness, I have a few questions for you, if I may.

15 And before I do so, I would like to join the Prosecution's expression of

16 sympathy for the pain and the sorrow that you and your family have

17 suffered in this conflict.

18 The questions that I had were basically two questions. The first

19 question is the -- about the information that you gave to us for the

20 reasons why your father and brother were arrested and taken to the

21 Viktor Bubanj barracks. Because I thought you said that that was because

22 your brother had refused to join the BiH army. Is that correct? And the

23 reason why I'm asking is that why would the ABiH otherwise come to a

24 private home and arrest the two male citizens who lived there unless there

25 was a specific reason. Can you first explain whether the reason for the

1 arrest of your brother and father was that your brother had denied to join

2 the BH army.

3 A. I believe that was the reason. Another reason that may have been

4 there was since they were of Serb origin. I know my father, I knew my

5 brother, and I know for sure that there were no other reasons involved.

6 On top of that, my father is handicapped and blind ever since World War

7 II. There were no other reasons. I think the only ones are as I

8 specified.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. But had your brother been drafted to

10 the army? Had there been a call for all male persons in the area,

11 including Muslims, to -- including Serbs, to join the BiH army?

12 A. There were calls issued. My brother received a draft call but he

13 didn't want to join any army, be it the ABiH army or any other.

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: And so he never reacted to the call?

15 A. Well, such calls would be brought by some people from the barracks

16 and the military units, they would knock on the door. He received such a

17 call but did not reply. He didn't want to join any army, ABiH or any

18 other. He wanted to be an ordinary citizen, nothing more.

19 JUDGE HARHOFF: I understand, but my question was whether he just

20 didn't do anything or whether he actually replied back to the army in

21 order to inform the army that he did not intend to join.

22 A. No, he didn't do anything. He did not provide any sort of

23 response. He simply did not react to the call, that is all. He never

24 said anything. He did receive a draft call, as did all others, but he did

25 not react to it. He never said, though, that he didn't want to join the

1 ABiH or any other army. That's all I can say.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. My second question relates to the

3 information you gave us about your school.

4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Because you said that you couldn't continue at

6 your school because the ABiH army was there, and I'm interested to have

7 you specify a bit more what that meant. Because -- my question is really

8 whether -- sorry. My question is whether the ABiH army had taken over the

9 school buildings and used them for any military purpose.

10 A. Yes. The school and the Pavle Goranin settlement by the same

11 name, although now it is called Dzemaludin Causevic. The school building

12 was used as a military headquarters. I did not attend school in 1992 at

13 all. In 1993 I was unable to continue as well, at least not in the school

14 where I had gone before the war, but I went to the 1st of May school in

15 Ali Pasin Street, and that's where I completed my school. In my former

16 school the ABiH was located, their headquarters were there.

17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. Just to be sure, after the ABiH had

18 taken over the school that you went to and had made the school -- and

19 turned the school into their headquarters, did all teaching stop from that

20 moment on and no students were allowed to the school buildings from that

21 moment?

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Witness. I hope you will get through

24 your life with as little pain as possible. Thank you.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi, you indicated that you had some

2 information relating to the efforts being made to bring to justice the

3 perpetrators of the crimes against this witness's family. Is there any

4 reason why you would not wish to provide that now?

5 MR. WAESPI: I have given it to the Defence three days ago when we

6 discovered it. We made a search on the name of the witness, and it was up

7 to them to use it or not. I just don't want to dwell on this issue in

8 front of the witness. I mentioned the most recent report we have received

9 that's 27th of April, 2003. I can make a couple of more points. I can do

10 it right now. There are no more indictments from this place, but we are

11 certainly happy to assist the -- and we do daily, the Bosnian authorities,

12 on any information we have on this instant. And as I said --

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: And there is an ongoing -- an active, ongoing

14 investigation into this matter at the local level?

15 MR. WAESPI: I don't know that. I see that on this document dated

16 17th April, 2003, it's called and it refers to the law upon criminal

17 procedure of Republika Srpska. It's a special report as a supplement to

18 our criminal reports, and there are a couple of dates. And then it lists

19 accused or potential accused, at least it says "against," and it goes on

20 to specific names, including dates of birth and it discusses the history

21 of the witness's father and also the witness's brother. So there is

22 something going on, and if you want, Mr. President, I'm happy to inquire

23 through our channels --

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: But I just want to stress the view of the Chamber

25 that this matter warrants being investigated and on the basis of the

1 witness's evidence some of the perpetrators are still alive. And there is

2 no reason why we should have an experience of impunity in this matter.

3 And I would hope, and you have said, that the Office of the Prosecutor

4 will do everything in its power to assist an investigation at the local

5 level.

6 MR. WAESPI: That is correct, and I'll follow-up on that.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

8 MR. WAESPI: And I totally agree with you, there shouldn't be

9 impunity.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, there's no cross-examination, so, Witness,

11 that concludes your evidence. We thank you for coming to the Tribunal to

12 give it and you may now leave.

13 [The witness withdrew]

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, Mr. Tapuskovic, I want to take this

15 witness's evidence as a specimen, as a sample, microcosmic reflection of

16 your case as a whole. Here is a witness who has given very good evidence

17 of the suffering of her family, a Serb family, and, indeed, of other Serb

18 families in her village at the hands of the ABiH. I want you to tie that

19 in with the allegations in the indictment. I've asked before, and I don't

20 wish you to begin your response by saying you have given the answer

21 before. I want to hear again your explanation as to how that specific

22 evidence, which admittedly is good evidence of ABiH activities, perhaps

23 even crimes, resulting in the suffering of the Serbs, causing pain,

24 causing suffering, inflicting even a reign of terror in that village

25 because she spoke of fear. And how do you say that that is of assistance

1 to the accused in meeting the charges in the indictment? Let us take this

2 as a specimen, as a sample.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have been

4 expecting this question and I thought it would be asked even during my

5 examination of the witness. It is fully justified, of course. I will try

6 to provide an answer, however, I may fall into the trap of the tu quoque

7 principle. However, I do not believe this implies, because this conflict

8 particularly in the period referred to in our understanding had several

9 phases. I didn't ask this witness anything else, since there was a period

10 of the most military activities caused by the large-scale offensive of the

11 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12 In the initial period between August and December, it is our

13 position that the intensity of activities was not so great as to be able

14 to cause some of the incidents which make up for the most part of the

15 indictment concerning the terror of the civilian population in the part of

16 Sarajevo that was controlled by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17 What Defence is trying to show is that these things are

18 interlinked and that combat activities caused suffering, death, and fear

19 on both sides equally. There was no wish on the part of the Army of

20 Republika Srpska to act on purpose in order to cause anyone's fear or

21 suffering. It is our position that during that offensive the fear,

22 suffering, and terror that was there existed primarily because of this

23 strong offensive which -- that period was initiated by the Army of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25 The things that happened throughout the war in Sarajevo, it was a

1 classical type of terror, literally speaking, because thousands upon

2 thousands of people in Sarajevo went missing in those years and it was

3 terror, indeed. When there is a mention of the consequences of such

4 conflicts pertaining to the indictment and the responsibility of

5 Mr. Dragomir Milosevic, well that suffering would not have taken place had

6 it not been for the ABiH offensive at the time. Therefore, in that

7 time-period and during the command responsibility period of Dragomir

8 Milosevic, no one had any particular wish to cause the suffering of

9 civilians or death. It simply happened within the context that we've been

10 trying to explain here.

11 There was terror in Sarajevo throughout the war, and

12 particularly so in the part of Sarajevo that was under the command of the

13 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. The Army of Republika Srpska never did, and

14 especially not during the time-period of command of Dragomir Milosevic and

15 within the area of responsibility of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, they

16 never intentionally exposed either prisoners or civilians to any type of

17 suffering as the Prosecutor would like us to conclude. It was simply the

18 result of the behaviour of both sides, as shown by evidence.

19 This witness was an example of the type of suffering underwent by

20 the people of Sarajevo, all of Sarajevo, throughout the war. That type of

21 suffering would not have taken place in the period during Mr. Milosevic's

22 command had it not been for the offensive in the period of May, June,

23 July, August, September, October, and November. It is almost eight

24 months.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see. So your answer is that the terror that

1 existed was primarily due to the ABiH offensive?

2 [Defence counsel confer]

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge Robinson, we

4 heard the witness's story today. There was terror in Sarajevo, as

5 explained by her. She testified under protective measures. It was

6 terror, literally speaking, as known by everyone around the world. The

7 things that took place during the combat activities then were unavoidable

8 for both sides. There was never an intention on the part of the Army of

9 Republika Srpska to act solely to create terror among the population in

10 the territory controlled by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in order to

11 achieve some of its military, political, or historical goals. It simply

12 happened during that time.

13 As for the fear among the civilian population, well they take on

14 such proportions as described by this witness in such circumstances.

15 However, there was no intentional activity or there was no goal. It was

16 unavoidable due to the clashes that took place in that period, which for

17 the most part, were not intentionally caused or originate -- originated

18 from the Army of Republika Srpska.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, I'm grateful to you. The terror that

20 existed was primarily the result of the ABiH offensive, and any fear, any

21 trepidation experienced by the Muslims and that may have been attributable

22 to Serb activity was not intentionally caused by the Serbs. I'm trying to

23 encapsulate the argument. Because, of course, intention is an essential

24 element in the crime of terror.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly. That is my

1 starting point. There must be intention, an intention to do things. The

2 way it is portrayed in the indictment, that there was nothing else except

3 for the wish to inflict suffering upon another people, but there was no

4 civilian there that did not suffer that on both sides. I cannot support

5 one of the thesis offered by the indictment, this being that the only goal

6 was to inflict terror during the period that Dragomir Milosevic is held

7 responsible for in order to achieve military, political, or historical

8 goals. I don't know how it all began and I don't want to dwell on it too

9 much, but in this period, at the end of the war, people were tired, fed up

10 of suffering. And at that time, no one had any wish to act simply to

11 cause the suffering of the other side. And here I also take into account

12 the suffering of the Muslims, which was a great one. But I submit that it

13 was not intentional. There were some individuals who created the whole

14 mess, well that's a topic to discuss. But the people who were in trenches

15 on both sides had no particular wish to cause terror or panic on the other

16 side, particularly not among the civilian population.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

18 Mr. Waespi, you wanted to say something?

19 MR. WAESPI: Yes, just a couple of points in response. First of

20 all, the indictment says in Count 1 that it's not the only purpose of the

21 SRK but the primary purpose. And we have heard many, many international

22 witnesses, let alone the local witnesses, who made inferences from the

23 relentless targeting of civilians, indiscriminate targeting, as

24 experienced on the ground, that it was the primary purpose of the leaders

25 of the SRK to inflict terror, that's number one.

1 The second point about the Defence case, the way I understand it

2 there are two elements. One element we heard of today's witness, that she

3 was terrified because her father and her brother were taken away and

4 tortured. I can understand that. But if you -- if it's really the

5 Defence case that you are saying that the population inside the

6 confrontation lines of all ethnicities are not terrorised by incidents,

7 massacres I'd like to call them, like the Markale incident or the

8 water-line incident, but by some people being taken away illegally and,

9 indeed, tortured, then you should put that -- I need to address you, Your

10 Honours, that should have been put to witnesses, to Mr. Harland, for

11 instance, and tell him under Rule 90(H) say, I put it to you that the

12 people weren't terrified because of these incidents you talked about but

13 because of the illegal detention of Serb victims. I think that such a

14 fundamental change of -- or policy or expression of the Defence case

15 should have been put to our Prosecution witnesses.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Of course that -- we don't want to get

17 ahead of ourselves. We still are sometime away from closing arguments and

18 submissions, but it is my duty, as I understand it, to try to understand

19 the case of both parties. And this is why I have this exploratory

20 exercise during the testimony of witnesses to understand the case that

21 both parties are putting. So I'm grateful, both to Mr. Tapuskovic and to

22 Mr. Waespi, for the submissions and the information they have provided.

23 We can move now to the next witness or perhaps we should take the

24 break. Are we going to be having another break before the end of the day?

25 I'm making an inquiry of the court deputy.

1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, we -- I believe, we are obliged to take the

3 break in any event because my understanding is that the next witness is

4 not due here until 12.00. That's normal, is it?

5 THE REGISTRAR: I think we're ahead of time in terms of conclusion

6 of witnesses.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see, well, we have been expeditious. We have

8 been, perhaps, overly efficient this morning.

9 So we'll take the break now and return at 12.00. We'll return at

10 12.00.

11 --- Recess taken at 11.32 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 12.08 p.m.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, I understand there's a matter you

14 wish to raise.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, just briefly.

16 On the basis of what I presented to you in my summary, you gave me 45

17 minutes for the examination-in-chief, which is how long it should last.

18 However, I really have been looking into this and making evaluations, and

19 what I based those evaluations was before I'd seen the witness. But now I

20 think that I would require a little more time because it's an elderly

21 witness.

22 And I'd like to issue a warning to you as well, because he had a

23 very difficult situation in his life. And so I asked him to focus on the

24 problem in hand as much as possible, and I have requested the Prosecution

25 to bear this in mind as well so that we can get through his testimony as

1 easily and painlessly as possible. But I do expect to complete the

2 examination-in-chief during business today, so just a little more time but

3 within the limits of today.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Let the witness be brought into

5 court.

6 [The witness entered court]

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit. And you may begin, Mr. Tapuskovic.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

13 WITNESS: LUKA JOVIC

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

16 Q. Witness, you know that I am Defence counsel for Mr.

17 Dragomir Milosevic. We met a few days ago to discuss the issues at hand.

18 I would like to ask you to speak slowly, and I for my part will do the

19 best to do the same. I know you speak slowly anyway and I don't think

20 there will be any trouble about that. But as I say, please keep the

21 guide-lines I have given you in mind, and also perhaps you could glance at

22 the screen in front of you to see that -- what we've said has been taken

23 down.

24 But can we start off by you giving your first and last name.

25 A. My name is Luka Jovic.

1 Q. Thank you. You were born on the 25th of October, 1940, were you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. As I said, just wait between my question and your answer, make a

4 little pause.

5 A. Yes, thank you.

6 Q. You were born in Mrackovac, Lopare municipality near Tuzla in

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You completed primary school in Brcko, in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Is

10 that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And secondary school or gymnasium, where was that?

13 A. In Tuzla.

14 Q. As I say, wait for my question to come up on the screen. You did

15 your military service in the Yugoslav People's Army in 1967 and 1968 in

16 Rajlovac. Is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You have been living in Sarajevo since 1968. Is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Could you briefly tell the court where you worked?

21 A. Yes. Can I go ahead and speak?

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. From 1969 to before the war, to just before the war broke out, I

24 worked in Feroelektro, a company in Sarajevo located in the centre of

25 Sarajevo. Feroelektro is a commercial organisation dealing wholesale and

1 retail, and I was a clerk in the personnel department.

2 Q. Thank you. And where did you live? Where were you residing if we

3 look at the events of 1992?

4 A. Well, with respect to the events in 1992, I lived in Dobrinja I,

5 which is part of Sarajevo, but a district called Dobrinja. Dobrinja is

6 divided into several sections.

7 Q. Thank you. Now, Witness --

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation], or rather, could the witness be

9 shown the map, 2872 is the number.

10 Q. And, Witness, the map will come up on your screen. Before the map

11 comes up, as I say, keep looking at the monitor, at the screen. So that

12 you see when the typing has been completed and then answer. So take a few

13 moments, and now take a few moments for the map to appear on your screen.

14 Take it easy, Witness.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we zoom-in once again on the

16 map, particularly showing the south part which is where Dobrinja is

17 located.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dobrinja is here.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] That's it. Thank you.

20 Q. Now, show us where you lived, in what part of town, and tell us

21 how it was divided up.

22 A. Dobrinja was divided into five parts, and they were called

23 Dobrinja I, II, III, IV, and V, the neighbourhoods. Now, do you want me

24 to indicate how far Dobrinja I stretched?

25 Q. Yes, in just a moment. Yes, now mark in Dobrinja I, please.

1 A. Do you want me to draw a circle around the whole district, the

2 whole neighbourhood? If so, then this is Dobrinja I, the whole of that

3 area, my hand is trembling a bit, out of fear, I suppose. I apologise for

4 that. I hope you won't hold it against me.

5 Q. Now, is that the Dobrinja where you lived? Just pause, please, so

6 we don't speak at the same time because everything has to be recorded. So

7 when you see that my words have been recorded and are written up on the

8 screen, then you can go ahead. Now, tell us where this Dobrinja is to be

9 located.

10 A. Well, you mean Dobrinja IV? Do you mean where I was or where I

11 lived?

12 Q. Mr. Luka, wait a few seconds so that I complete what I'm saying

13 and then do what I have instructed you to do. So you see the words coming

14 up on the screen, the typing there? It's stopped now. You can see it

15 stopped. So now tell us, go ahead, and tell us where the neighbourhood

16 you lived in was and what it was called.

17 A. This is what I drew. Now, where I lived during the war was in

18 Dobrinja IV. During the war I lived in Dobrinja IV, which is over here.

19 This is Dobrinja IV, this circled area, that's where I lived then.

20 Q. Put D4 there, write D4.

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. Now, briefly, very briefly, describe what happened at the

23 beginning of 1992.

24 A. Sometime in April 1992 there was a lot of commotion. Quite

25 simply, the population was terrified on all -- both sides. There were

1 barricades erected. As a citizen of Sarajevo, I thought that this sorry

2 state of affairs would end the silly situation, if I might use that word.

3 Q. And what happened?

4 A. I went to work right up until the 1st of May. I was no longer

5 able to pass because the access or entrance to the area where I went to

6 work was closed, it was controlled by the BH army and the territorial --

7 well, whatever. You couldn't go to work, you couldn't pass by. So I

8 stayed at home for a few days.

9 Q. Thank you. Now, can you tell the Court who else lived in the flat

10 with you, your family?

11 A. My family comprised of my wife, two little girls, and my

12 mother-in-law, that is to say my mother's mother lived with us.

13 Q. Thank you. What happened at the beginning of May, if you can

14 remember?

15 A. At the beginning of May we were on duty at the entrance to my

16 building, and in my building people lived quietly. We were on good terms

17 with our neighbours, the Orthodox and the Croats and the Muslims or

18 Bosniaks as they're called now, we all lived together on good terms. We

19 had to take shifts and stand on duty, because from the federal police they

20 informed us that in Dobrinja there was some gangs or bands or

21 self-proclaimed -- well, bands and gangs of theft -- of thieves, thieving

22 and looting. Because many of the flats in that part of Dobrinja were

23 empty, the residents had moved out.

24 And during those days I witnessed people who, out of fear, the

25 Bosniaks, the Bosniak people from Gornji Kotorac passed by my flat which

1 was in Dobrinja and vice versa, people from Sarajevo, whole families

2 passed by that way, once again, out of fear, they were afraid of the BH

3 army as it was called. It's a joint army now and a real army now, but the

4 BH army of the day.

5 Q. Yes, thank you. Now, the Bosniaks that came that way, what were

6 they afraid of?

7 A. They were afraid just as we were. They were frightened that

8 something might break out because nobody called them to take shelter or go

9 to safety, nobody prevented them from doing so either. So they were on

10 the move leaving their flats empty and it was the area which, in fact,

11 divided two nations, two ethnic groups.

12 Q. Thank you. Did anything happen at the beginning of May, any event

13 that has stuck in your memory?

14 A. Well, it was like this already on the 15th of May, Pofalic

15 happened. I'm sure you've all heard of it and it was on television. And

16 this gave rise to fear and even the few people who stayed on in Dobrinja

17 left Dobrinja then. In my particular entrance, the entrance to my house,

18 there were just three families which stayed on.

19 Q. Thank you. Now, tell us what happened with the people who carried

20 on living there. Were there any conflicts that erupted or what?

21 A. Well, nothing happened to the people. There weren't any

22 casualties there. The people left, the Bosniaks left further into

23 Sarajevo for their safety and security, and the Serbs went further into

24 the territory controlled by the Territorial Defence of the day, which had

25 just been established to save the population, the Orthodox population.

1 Q. Tell me now, please, what did you do under those circumstances?

2 Were there any conflicts that broke out in the area you lived? What was

3 the situation like there?

4 A. During the night -- well, everybody passed by that way at night.

5 During the day it wasn't so bad, but I know I didn't dare look out of the

6 window. We put blankets up on the windows.

7 Q. Yes, thank you. You've already told us that, but tell us did

8 anything else happen? Did any conflicts break out?

9 A. Not in that area of Dobrinja, there were no conflicts. There was

10 just shooting, there was shooting on both sides or from both sides so that

11 the inhabit -- we, the inhabitants, had to take great care and had to move

12 around behind the buildings, taking shelter behind them when we wanted to

13 go out for food and things like that. It was dangerous to move around.

14 Q. What did you do when that shooting was going on? Did you play any

15 part in that?

16 A. At the beginning a sort of defence was set up by the civilians,

17 people who had families set up a sort of defence. There were ten of us

18 who agreed to do this. If any armed paramilitaries, for example, turned

19 up, because there were soldiers of various kinds and police of various

20 kinds and they came with weapons. So that we could keep them back and

21 allow these civilians to leave. This was a platoon, but it only lasted

22 three days, and only that on paper.

23 Q. Did you take up arms?

24 A. It was only towards the end of May that I was forced to leave

25 because -- well, I know this because I received a few bullets. I was

1 given some bullets to look after, and the other weapons belonged to the

2 municipality. It was all old weapons, Smajser that I had but never shot

3 from, never fired from it.

4 Q. What happened at the end of May?

5 A. In Dobrinja I, this is Dobrinja I, I indicated it on the map,

6 there was constant shooting from all sides, from all sides. And so I and

7 the other people had to leave, and Dobrinja IV was safer, more protected.

8 So I found a flat on the ground floor of one of the buildings in

9 Dobrinja IV, and that's how I managed to save my family. My family didn't

10 want to separate; they wanted us to live together, with me. So on the

11 31st of May something happened, a terrible tragedy befell me. My little

12 girl was killed. She was just 14 years old and ten months.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness take a minute.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Sir, you should pull yourself together and try to tell us as

16 briefly as you can what happened.

17 A. To bury my child, I had to under fire of rifles from Mojmilo,

18 Oriolik, I don't know how to show you Oriolik here. That's a tall

19 building, a high-rise building from which one could control the Seljo

20 barracks and this whole area. I had to get through in order to bury my

21 child at Kotorac near the airport.

22 Q. Sir, I don't want to remind you of all this, but you have to tell

23 us briefly. You're now talking about your child's funeral, but what

24 actually happened, please?

25 A. What happened? They were constantly exerting pressure on us from

1 Dobrinja, from Dobrinja III, Dobrinja II, and they fired shots at us from

2 buildings. We were in a kind of hole. We couldn't leave Dobrinja. We

3 didn't have water. There was no electricity. The villages up there had

4 water and under pressure, in agreement with the federation, we were given

5 water, too.

6 Q. Sir, I know it's hard for you, but we have to explain to the

7 Judges what happened on the 31st of May.

8 A. My child was sitting in the car with two other young people, and

9 they went from Dobrinja IV towards Ilidza by the airport, passing by the

10 airport, because she wanted to buy some things that she needed. We didn't

11 have any shops, and girls, little girls, don't understand what war is

12 like. They couldn't understand that it was really war, and on the way

13 back from Ilidza, from the area of Rosa Hadzivukovic I can draw it if need

14 be, this is where the Rosa Hadzivukovic Street is right here, there it is,

15 a shot was fired from building up there, at the car. And my little girl

16 was sitting in the back, on the back seat. She was hit by a bullet in the

17 back near her shoulder blade. The bullet went in. It didn't go out I

18 think. I don't know what kind of bullet it was. Was it a dum-dum bullet,

19 I don't know. I received a document saying she was shot by a sniper, but

20 I can't believe that someone could target a child from a sniper because

21 they can see who they are aiming at if they're using a sniper.

22 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Just one moment, please.

23 Witness, of course I do share your suffering, but I would like

24 some clarification, if you don't mind. This location, this

25 Rosa Hadzi Vukovic neighbourhood, just as Dobrinja I, on the 31st of May,

1 1992, these -- both locations were controlled by which army?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dobrinja I at the time was in

3 nobody's hands, it was under no one's control. Rosa Hadzivukovic is where

4 the Territorial Defence of the future Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina was

5 in control.

6 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Witness, when you said you didn't believe that she was fired at

9 from a sniper, what did you want to say, actually?

10 A. I kept saying, I've always said, that nobody could do that. I

11 know I wouldn't be able to shoot an unarmed person, let alone a child, and

12 you could see she was still a child. She was just a 14-year-old girl. I

13 say to this day, he knows he shot at a child. Let him come to me and

14 apologise, and I'll forgive him. In the interests of peace I'll forgive

15 him.

16 Q. Can you tell Their Honours, sir - I have to ask you this because

17 you told me what you wrote on the headstone on your child's tomb?

18 A. I wrote there that my child was a victim of war, a victim of war,

19 because I don't believe that anyone would be able to target an unarmed

20 person, especially not a female, let alone a child. That's our heritage,

21 our future.

22 Q. Thank you. I won't dwell on this any longer. When the fighting

23 began, was there some kind of demarcation at these positions? Later on

24 the territorials became the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and in the

25 area where you were, who was in control there? Can you show us the line

1 dividing the sides?

2 A. Just a moment, please. Through Dobrinja here, like this.

3 Q. Just a moment, just a moment. What does this line represent?

4 A. Well, you see, this here is Mojmilo.

5 Q. Please mark Mojmilo.

6 A. Here it is, this hill here, that's Mojmilo. That was under the

7 control of the army or the Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina, all

8 this part.

9 Q. Mark it with an "M."

10 A. Yes, all of this, all of this here.

11 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us in Dobrinja what were you able to see

12 from there?

13 A. Well, what could I see in Dobrinja? I saw the hill of Mojmilo and

14 the sky above it, especially my family never went out. They had to leave

15 through a window in a neighbouring apartment, as I had -- as we had no

16 water, I dug a hole to collect water we could use for hygiene, or I had to

17 go up to the village to get drinking water. You couldn't see anything.

18 We were enclosed there. A few people were killed in the early days on the

19 square in Dobrinja IV. In the atomic shelter we had to put up scaffolding

20 from which we could hang curtains, because then at least we could get as

21 far as a little clumps of trees. So then they wouldn't see us and that

22 saved a lot of lives, because before then quite a few people were killed.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Before we move on in your examination I would just

25 like the witness to clarify one little thing, because it is unclear to me

1 where the shots which killed his daughter came from. Can you -- do you

2 know that?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me tell you, I am not an expert.

4 It was wartime. There was shooting coming from all sides. Everybody

5 was shooting. It was war. I can't say. Let me repeat, I can't assert

6 with certainty that somebody killed my child on purpose. I can't. May

7 God forgive that person. If he knows what he's done. I believe he dreams

8 about it every night or he's an animal, but I can't believe he would do

9 that on purpose. I don't know who could do that.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: So you have no information about which side of the

11 armed conflict that might have sniped your daughter, if it was, indeed, a

12 sniping incident?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let me repeat. It says in the

14 document I received about her death that she was killed by a sniper, and

15 there's a description, I believe Mr. Tapuskovic has the document, but I

16 can't believe it was a sniper. But the only place where they could have

17 fired the shot was from the Rosa Hadzivukovic area, because she was on

18 this road on the way back so that's the only place where the shot could

19 have come from.

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: We'll see, maybe Mr. Tapuskovic can clarify.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I can. Yes, I can. Your

23 Honours, I can. I didn't want to dwell. Yes, I can, Your Honours. The

24 witness's standpoint is that she was a victim of war.

25 Q. But, Witness, please mark the road from Ilidza along which your

1 daughter was travelling. Can you mark it with a blue line. Yes.

2 A. This is the way she was taking on the way back, and this is where

3 the shot was fired.

4 Q. Where was the car when she was hit, indicate that, please.

5 A. Here.

6 Q. Mark that with that with a "T," please.

7 A. A "T," if you can see it's a "T."

8 Q. From what direction did the shot come according to what was

9 established in the official document which I will not go into?

10 A. It says there from the back --

11 Q. I want to slow you down a little. Can you draw a line indicating

12 the direction from where the shot might have come?

13 A. From this neighbourhood here, like this, from there,

14 Izolovac [phoen]. That's where the shot came from. The buildings are

15 close together there, so it's hard to mark it with an arrow.

16 Q. Who was holding those position you're indicating?

17 A. Well, it was the Territorial Defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina or

18 the police of Bosnia-Herzegovina. There were no Orthodox local people

19 living there.

20 Q. Can you show where the Simon Bolivar school was?

21 A. This is the Simon Bolivar school right here, here it is,

22 Simon Bolivar.

23 Q. Can you mark it with an"S"?

24 A. "S".

25 Q. What kind of area was that school in? I'm referring to the

1 building surrounding it. Can you explain that.

2 A. From the area of Dobrinja IV and the area under Serb control later

3 on, Republika Srpska control, later on, you couldn't see the school at all

4 because there were buildings all around. So it was well-sheltered from

5 all sides, so you couldn't see it either from Dobrinja IV or from

6 Dobrinja 1.

7 Q. Thank you. What school could you see?

8 A. The school was called Dusan Pajic Dasic that's the school my child

9 attended and completed primary school, Dusan Pajic Dasic. But that school

10 was held by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina later on. There were bunkers

11 in that school and they entered even deeper. There's a family house near

12 that school where they entered as well, and there was some containers

13 there used by workers from Slovenia, construction workers, and they used

14 those containers to construct a bunker full of bags of soil.

15 Q. Thank you. Were you carrying weapons throughout the war?

16 A. Let me tell you. At the beginning when my child was killed, I

17 left my weapons for a few days. But as there were not enough people for

18 the defence, and I was only 58 kilos in weight, I had lost so much weight,

19 I volunteered because I wanted to protect my family. My family didn't

20 want to leave me. They said, If anything happens to you, let the same

21 happen to us?

22 Q. Let's now talk about 1994 and 1995. Throughout that time, did

23 anyone ever arrive with an order saying that you should shoot at

24 civilians?

25 A. I was in the building where our Territorial Defence was --

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi.

2 MR. WAESPI: Yes, I hate to interrupt and I can clarify it in

3 cross-examination, but could it please be established now after almost an

4 hour what part of -- was the witness a soldier, what part of unit was he,

5 where was he positioned, otherwise these follow-up questions about orders

6 don't make any sense.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Make that inquiry of the witness, Mr. Tapuskovic,

8 whether he was a soldier and to what unit, if any, did he belong.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Thank you. Can you respond to these questions posed by the

11 Prosecutor and the Bench. Also, were you in a position to command someone

12 and what unit did you belong to?

13 A. The Territorial Defence. As we remained there once the JNA had

14 left, we were taken, sort of, by the armoured battalion that was there.

15 We remained an infantry company tasked with defending Dobrinja. Sometime

16 in 1994, since I was completely worn out and I wasn't strong enough to be

17 on the front lines anymore, they offered me to become a company

18 quarter-master. I was supposed to take care of rifles that some soldiers

19 would leave once they left the unit and to take care of supplies. Since

20 there wasn't much to do, I also worked on communications, since we were

21 also short of people. Therefore, I can say for certain that no one ever

22 ordered that fire be opened, any officers. They were cursing at us

23 saying, Who's firing? And we would say, It wasn't us who opened the fire.

24 There was truce at the time and --

25 Q. Do you know what the name of your unit was?

1 A. It was an armoured battalion, and we were its infantry company.

2 Q. What brigade?

3 A. The Sarajevo-Romanija Brigade.

4 Q. At first and later on were there any heavy pieces there?

5 A. Not in Dobrinja IV. We didn't have any. We were an infantry

6 company comprising 25 men.

7 Q. The blue line you drew, what is that, towards the west?

8 A. This was the distance between the population, I will speak in

9 those terms, the population on the Muslim and on the Orthodox Serb side,

10 that was the division line and it was preserved. And it was there simply

11 to protect the population. There was never an order stating that we were

12 to attack or try to seize territory. It wasn't our goal. We were only

13 trying to protect the population in that part of Sarajevo and in Kotorac

14 and Seljo, because there were refugees there as well. There was a lot of

15 people. We were trying to save them, to protect them.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, we take a shorter break now, 15

17 minutes.

18 --- Break taken at 12.55 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 1.15 p.m.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please continue.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. Luka, while we're still on this map, let me just ask you

23 something else. You told us how many of you were there. Could you get

24 out of that area at all where you were there with those 25-odd soldiers?

25 A. Not only 25 or 26 soldiers but civilians, too, and we were not

1 able to leave Dobrinja during the day at all. Only if we risked our lives

2 you would have to rush -- run across and might be hit in the head. And I

3 know that my wife was shot at several times, but the bullet luckily

4 missed. It was only at night that we were able to somehow squeeze through

5 and go out of Dobrinja IV, and that's when we went for food.

6 Q. Thank you. Would you show us the route.

7 A. The route, the road. This is the church over here, I've drawn a

8 circle around the church. I'll put a "C" for church. And we could leave

9 by going this way, behind some old houses and a wooded area and come out

10 onto the road, and then hide ourselves and reach the barracks. That was

11 the only way we could go, or we could go on foot. And sometimes you could

12 go down to Grbavica to buy some food, because there was food at Grbavica,

13 but you would have to leave the area under cover of darkness and then do

14 it that way; although, you could go to Grbavica during the day, too, to

15 buy food and cooking oil. And then you'd go back and wait in the Dikic

16 houses by Dobrinja IV, you'd have to wait for nightfall there and then

17 wait for night.

18 Q. The unit you mentioned, was -- did it go into action at any time,

19 fire?

20 A. Well, we couldn't see that. Our position was just to observe, and

21 if they did open fire at Dobrinja IV, I didn't notice that. I didn't

22 notice any shooting at Dobrinja IV. We did look towards that direction.

23 We were just afraid that Jukic's men and all these other units, I don't

24 know what all their names were, we just were worried that they wouldn't

25 break through.

1 Q. Thank you. Now, did you receive any orders from any of your

2 superior officers?

3 A. The order was: Don't fire. Don't use ammunition in vain. And if

4 somebody were killed and someone might sort of fire a shot out of revenge,

5 they were told not to shoot and they were told, Are you under an attack?

6 You're not, then don't fire. So we didn't fire, we didn't shoot. There

7 was no shooting.

8 And if they started shooting, then we had to respond, because if

9 you didn't respond they would think that you'd left your positions. And

10 then of course they'd -- the onslaught would be in an organised manner.

11 Q. I'm interested in hearing about your situation. Did you ever hear

12 an order whereby the soldiers were told to shoot at civilians?

13 A. No, and the former Yugoslav People's Army was always very mindful

14 of civilians and everybody who completed those military schools were

15 brought up in that way, to respect civilians, so they always said, Don't

16 shoot, because you might hit a civilian. And you have to defend yourself

17 if you are attacked. But there was never an order of any kind with

18 respect to any military action of that nature, and I can tell you that for

19 sure. And I was in -- working communications, so I knew all about that.

20 Q. And if somebody had done that directly -- had ordered you to do

21 that directly?

22 A. I would say, Well here, take my rifle and you can do it. I'm not

23 going to. I'm not going to shoot civilians. I'm not going to leave my

24 family, and I'd say that that was not a normal thing to do, a natural

25 thing to do.

1 Q. And were there ever any such orders?

2 A. No, never.

3 Q. Thank you. Now, I do have to make headway here. Can you tell me

4 this: Were there any major operations at the end of 1994 and beginning of

5 1995? I don't want to prompt you, but perhaps you could tell us about

6 that.

7 A. I know that there was a truce, a cease-fire, at the beginning of

8 1994 and it was a nice, quiet time, a cease-fire. And in 1995, in May or

9 June, I think it was June actually, you could hear a lot of explosions,

10 detonations, and I heard over the radio, too, that Ilidza had been

11 attacked and that it was being shelled, I don't know from what side, but

12 that's what I heard. And also it was broadcast that in Sarajevo it was

13 the 101st or 5th or whatever mountain brigade. Tell you the truth, I

14 wasn't an officer myself to be able to understand all this -- these

15 numbers and brigade numbers and units anyway.

16 Q. And where were those brigades or those units and soldiers

17 positioned?

18 A. Well, not in Dobrinja, certainly not, but you could hear shells

19 firing behind Mojmilo, that that's where some shells were being fired.

20 And you could see where they landed if you observed. They even fell on

21 Lukavica, but they didn't dare target us because they would be, in fact,

22 targeting their own part because it was a part of town after all.

23 Q. Thank you. I'd now like to show you a document, DD003625 is the

24 number.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] And may we just keep the map as a

1 Defence exhibit, please.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we may.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Save the map, please.

4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, give it a number.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D235.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Document DD003625 is the number

8 of the document.

9 Your Honours, you can't see it on the screen. Perhaps -- it's not

10 a good copy. Perhaps we could place the document on the ELMO to look at

11 the title, and then pages 4 and 5, because I'd like to ask the witness

12 whether what he heard about during those days corresponds to this.

13 Page 4.

14 Q. Now, look at the bottom of that page first, please, and tell me

15 how many bullets were used up.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi.

17 MR. WAESPI: Yes. If, for everybody's benefit, it could be

18 explained what this document is all about before we go into details about

19 what it -- what kind of ammunition it contains.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Tell us about the source and so on,

21 Mr. Tapuskovic, and preferably let that be shown by the document itself.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I will explain.

23 It is a document of the BH army, a report by the 102nd Brigade about the

24 amount of ammunition used in the previous month, and it relates to July

25 and the end of June, and on the basis of this document we can see how many

1 bullets were shot, were used, and shows what the witness was saying, that

2 there were 1 and a half thousand shells shot during that month for the end

3 of June and July, which is precisely the period of time when a number of

4 incidents took place that are mentioned in the indictment, and we can see

5 that this 102nd Brigade used 100.000 bullets, let alone all the other

6 things. And over 1.000 shells of one sort or another, and I think the

7 120-calibre ones, too, hundreds of them, which did not fall on Dobrinja,

8 as he said, as the witness said, but that he heard whizzing past going in

9 other directions.

10 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, it's a very, very tenuous link between

11 the evidence of this soldier in his trenches in Dobrinja and this massive

12 amount of ammunition listed here and testified by my learned colleague.

13 But we do have no objection to this coming in. We had so many others, so

14 it doesn't matter.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: And you are seeking its admission,

16 Mr. Tapuskovic?

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I think we've

18 been doing that up till now, so we're talking about the amount of

19 ammunition used, not what was ordered as in previous cases to be procured.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: You will ask the witness some questions about it.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Would you take a look at the document, Witness, what it says at

24 the top, who issued it, what date it was issued.

25 A. It says here the command of the -- and it says: "Strictly

1 confidential, military secret."

2 Q. Yes, but I'm asking about the heading.

3 A. What do you mean by heading?

4 Q. At the top, what does it say at the top of the document?

5 A. It says the: "Command of the 102nd Brigade," and then there's the

6 number "16/3-299 of the 20th of July, 1995," 8.00 or 9.00, what is it?

7 0800 or 0900 hours. And it is the report for the month -- the previous

8 month, that is to say June.

9 Q. Right.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Now could we look at page 4,

11 please, and 5 would be even better. Let's take a look at the top of

12 page 5.

13 Q. Look at the number of bullets used --

14 A. Well, had they hit their target there would not be a single Serb

15 left standing the 440 MB 60-millimetre shells and then we have 1.296 mines

16 or shells of the MB 82-millimetre type.

17 Q. Mr. Luka, is that the -- are those the projectiles you heard

18 whizzing past your head in those days?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to have the document

21 admitted.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D236.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Sir, at the end of the war, did you work with an international

1 organisation?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Which one?

4 A. I think it said "United Nations." There was a woman, a major, she

5 was their representative, and there was a local commune in Dobrinja I.

6 They knew that I had resided there, that I was a local person, that I had

7 been there throughout this time. So they asked me for my opinion. They

8 asked whether I knew where the shells were that had landed on that part of

9 the battle-field.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to show the witness

12 the map so that he could tell us whether this is it. It's OHR DD073765,

13 it's a document.

14 Q. Did you assist the OHR in drawing up this map? Did you show them

15 which was Dobrinja I, Dobrinja IV?

16 A. As before the war, I had a map of Dobrinja I, because I was the

17 president of the local commune. I had a map of Dobrinja I, indicating

18 where playing fields were supposed to be and so on, and so I was able to

19 draw a map, and I knew more or less where these mines or shells were.

20 This is the school. This is the school, this is where their positions

21 were. This was a wooded area, a wooded area, and here there is a garage

22 in Dobrinja IV, it's a big garage for the entire local population. And

23 this is where the shells were, towards the garage, towards Dobrinja IV.

24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure whether the witness

25 is referring to shells or land-mines, interpreter's note.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were some mines here --

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Could you mark this with "M" where the land-mines were.

4 A. This is where a woman was killed by a land-mine after the war, and

5 there was a man who was killed by a land-mine up here.

6 Q. And how did you assist the OHR? Did you provide any kind of

7 assistance to them?

8 A. Well, let me tell you, I was the first who moved in because my

9 flat had been gutted, but people started returning to their homes. There

10 were children around, and I couldn't bear to see this. I knew there was

11 some land-mines around, and I even went to remove some of them myself

12 because I knew a little bit about it. And once I almost got killed. I

13 was standing right next to it, but well it was my destiny to survive. And

14 later on they called me to the local commune, so I made a sketch and I

15 marked the positions of the land-mines and the deminers did a very good

16 job, a very conscientious job.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted

18 into evidence, please?

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Witness, while we wait for the assignment of a

21 number, I would like you to clarify, where did the division line between

22 Dobrinja I and Dobrinja IV go? Can you indicate that on the map.

23 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Oh, I see, so it followed the blue line, sorry.

25 Very well.

1 THE WITNESS: [Microphone not activated]

2 [Interpretation] This is the line.

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Right --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the line.

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: This is exactly why I was putting the question,

6 because I wanted to know who had laid the land-mines that you had removed

7 after the war. Do you know that?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I even found land-mines around here.

9 I couldn't tell you who laid them, but I do know for certain that in the

10 direction of Dobrinja IV they were laid by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

11 near the garages. That's where the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina laid

12 land-mines, and this area was under their control and none of our soldiers

13 could even approach Dobrinja I, they couldn't even come close to it,

14 because there was a playing field here, a stadium, Novi Grad. So it was

15 an area without any cover, and from the school they killed people in the

16 direction of this road so that nobody could go by on foot from the school.

17 There was a vast bunker inside here, and in this wooded area, after the

18 war, we found a ladder. They were some 10 metres tall because they had

19 left that area, abandoned it; and I was curious, so I went, cautiously,

20 with a neighbour to have a look. And we found the ladder and the nest for

21 shooting from. And I know that a woman in Dobrinja who had two small

22 children was killed while hanging up the washing on a line. And that's

23 how we reached the conclusion that it was from that place that that woman

24 had been killed. It's a very sad story.

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Microphone not activated] Sorry.

1 But just to confirm that I understood you correctly, on this map

2 where you've drawn the black line, the mines were on the left side of the

3 black line. Is that correct?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, on the left side, on the side

5 of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: And they were laid on a territory that was held by

7 the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much. I just had another question

10 now that we are in dialogue and that related to your information that you

11 could sneak away from Dobrinja IV at night-time. You said that you could,

12 under cover by the dark, get down to the barracks. And I would like you

13 to tell me which barracks were they?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was called Seljo where you're

15 exiting from Dobrinja, those barracks there were called Seljo. It's over

16 there, across this road, somewhere around here. I can mark it. That's

17 the barracks.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Right --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From Dobrinja IV.

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Right. Could you also head down to the barracks

21 in Lukavica?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that's the same one, it's

23 called Seljo.

24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Lukavica.

1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much for this. You also told us

2 that you could at night sneak over to Grbavica to get food, following the

3 road from Lukavica.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We left Dobrinja by night, and where

5 they were some rural houses overlooking Dobrinja, we would wait for some

6 kind of transportation and then we would go to Grbavica. Because there

7 was a wooded area and you could get there fast if you had a car, but if

8 you tried to walk, you'd be killed. It would be very difficult, but one

9 had to go, civilians had to eat. The soldiers didn't have enough food to

10 give to civilians. There was humanitarian aid, and quite a few people got

11 killed while going to fetch humanitarian aid.

12 JUDGE HARHOFF: I understand, but could you walk with a reasonable

13 degree of safety at night when it was dark, was that possible,

14 without being shot?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, only if there was a cease-fire,

16 then we would even go out and play football in a part of the shelter just

17 to stretch our legs. I had lost a lot of weight. I could barely carry my

18 rifle, my shoulder hurt. So I would go out to get some recreation on that

19 square between the buildings. That's an area of about 30 square metres.

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Witness, if you wanted to leave the Sarajevo

21 area altogether and get away and move to somewhere completely different,

22 far away, would that be possible? Could you escape from Dobrinja IV?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To escape from Dobrinja IV? No, no

24 way. If we had private planes we might have fled, but how else? How

25 could you go? We didn't have the proper documents any longer, passports,

1 where would I go to?

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: I understand --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- To Serbia to be a burden to

4 someone?

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: I understand, but if you could make it as far as

6 the Lukavica barracks, then perhaps you could make it further away from

7 there?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nobody prohibited us from going on

9 from there, but why would I want to run away from my own place, from my

10 child's tomb? No, never.

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: That is a completely different matter. I agree

12 that you wouldn't want to leave your home, but my question relates to the

13 fact or to the possibility of actually leaving the entire area because the

14 armed conflict was particularly tense in Sarajevo. So if you wanted to

15 get away from the conflict, at least for a period of time, then you could

16 do that. That is what I wanted you to confirm.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The only way was underneath Mojmilo

18 via Zlatiste, it's not on this map and through Trebevic towards Pale and

19 Sokolac. That was the only way out. We didn't have any other route that

20 we could take to get out. And then you could go towards Belgrade, people

21 who had money and felt like running away could then go and take a plane

22 from there.

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Mr. Witness.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: There's a problem with the markings on this map.

25 We've lost them, and I'll just ask the court deputy to explain what we

1 might have to do.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honours. Apparently we've lost

3 the markings that the witness had made with the red where he indicated the

4 mines. What we propose is to scan a copy of the screen shot that has been

5 captured by the video-recording and have that as Exhibit number 237. And

6 the markings that are presently visible on the screen will be assigned a

7 separate exhibit number as Exhibit D238. So, in effect, we'll have two

8 different exhibit numbers for the two sets of markings that we've had. I

9 hope this clarifies.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Could he just put the red marks back on this?

12 THE REGISTRAR: He could. That's another option as well.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, we're really much beyond the time. Can you

14 do that quickly?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At night they probably threw in

16 land-mines. They would crawl in and lay them there. This is where the

17 garage was. May I draw the garage? There's the garage, in red, that's

18 it, and those are their positions. This is where the land-mines were.

19 And I know that towards Dobrinja IV, those land-mines were laid by them.

20 But here in front of the school and around the containers, which I haven't

21 drawn, I can't say who laid those mines because I wasn't around at the

22 time. I was in Dobrinja IV throughout the war. There were two minefields

23 there.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll have to adjourn and come back to this

25 tomorrow.

1 We'll adjourn.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I understand we are not sitting tomorrow,

4 and we'll next sit on Monday, Monday morning.

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.51 p.m.,

6 to be reconvened on Monday, the 18th day of

7 June, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.

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