Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7576

1 Wednesday, 4 July 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva, you are to continue.

7 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes, good morning Mr. President, good morning, Your

8 Honours.


10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 Cross-examination by Mr. Sachdeva: [Continued]

12 Q. And good morning to you, Mr. Mandic. I trust you've been able to

13 rest last night.

14 I want to start by asking you some questions about the brigade,

15 the 1st Sarajevo mechanised brigade and I want to ask you, isn't it the

16 case that the Sarajevo mechanised brigade was called that -- was given

17 that name because it was unique in terms of the mechanical facilities it

18 had and the weapons it had. Is that right?

19 A. The 1st Sarajevo Brigade, as far as I know, was just called the

20 1st Sarajevo Brigade, not mechanised, and it's true that we had certain

21 combat equipment and as I said, we also had some vehicles for

22 transportation of people.

23 Q. Yes, and in fact the 1st Sarajevo or the mechanical brigade had a

24 tank battalion. Is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7577

1 Q. And the tank battalion consisted of armoured personnel carriers

2 and armoured vehicles. Is that also right?

3 A. The armoured battalion only had tanks, as far as I know.

4 Q. And in addition to the armoured battalion, wasn't there a mixed

5 heavy artillery division which consisted of heavy weapons ranging from 120

6 to 155-millimetre weapons?

7 A. Not as part of the battalion, no.

8 Q. But there was a mixed heavy artillery division, at least within

9 the Sarajevo brigade, mechanised brigade. Isn't that right?

10 A. There was artillery, that is true. However, I don't know if it

11 was whether in part of the 1st Sarajevo Brigade or whether it was part of

12 some other unit.

13 Q. And in any case, if required, as you said yesterday, if required,

14 the -- the Sarajevo mechanised brigade and the battalions within that

15 brigade were able to draw upon artillery support during combat?

16 A. Sir, you are again saying the 1st Sarajevo mechanised brigade.

17 It was the 1st Sarajevo brigade. It's true that we asked for assistance

18 and help from other brigades in case of danger for the civilian

19 population. Of course a large loss of personnel would mean that we asked

20 for help.

21 Q. And in addition to the -- well, in addition to your battalion, the

22 logistics battalion there were also, as I understand it, four other

23 battalions within the Sarajavo brigade, the 1st Sarajevo brigade. Is

24 that right?

25 A. As far as I know, we had in our battalion a company, this company

Page 7578

1 for the maintenance of wheeled motor vehicles. We had a company for the

2 procurement of fuel and we also had a medical unit.

3 Q. Yes. Perhaps -- I was actually asking you about the brigade and

4 the number of battalions within the brigade. And my understanding is that

5 there were four battalions in addition to the logistics battalion within

6 the brigade. Is that right?

7 A. I cannot give you a specific and correct answer about that,

8 because I really don't know how many brigades the battalion had.

9 Q. I take it you mean you don't know how many battalions the brigade

10 had. Is that what you said? Because the translation came out

11 differently.

12 A. Yes, that is what I said.

13 Q. Apart from the times that you were wounded, I understand that you

14 remained within the Sarajevo -- 1st Sarajevo Brigade throughout the

15 conflict. Is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Sir, you were also aware that there was a military police

18 battalion within the Sarajevo brigade, the 1st Sarajevo Brigade?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And the military police battalion, I suggest to you that one of

21 the purposes of this battalion would be to -- if there were errant

22 soldiers, or if there were crimes committed, the persons from this

23 battalion would be involved in any investigation. Is that right?

24 A. Yes. If any soldier of the 1st Sarajevo Brigade would commit

25 something wrong, he would be detained by the police and of course that

Page 7579

1 soldier would be subject to an appropriate punishment.

2 Q. So the commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and his brigade

3 commander, Mr. Stojanovic of the 1st Sarajevo Brigade, had -- if needed,

4 had the means to conduct investigations into crimes that may have been

5 committed by their soldiers?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In your time with the Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade, the Sarajevo

8 Brigade are you aware of any investigations that were conducted into

9 crimes committed by soldiers? In other words, the targeting of civilians

10 inside the city of Sarajevo.

11 A. I cannot answer that question, because I did not take part, nor

12 did I witness the shooting of civilians in Sarajevo. It's true that were

13 investigations and that people were put in prison.

14 Q. When you say that it's true there were investigations and people

15 were put in prison, is it your evidence that there were investigations

16 into SRK soldiers committing crimes? In other words, targeting civilians

17 inside the city of Sarajevo. Is that what you're saying?

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that the

20 witness should be allowed to answer specifically. He talked about

21 misdemeanours by the soldiers of the army of the Republika Srpska and the

22 Prosecutor keeps insisting on crimes about which he doesn't know anything

23 and he said that several times. He spoke about misdemeanours committed by

24 soldiers of the army of Republika Srpska. Well, he would need to explain

25 that in more detail but at no point did he speak about the kind of crimes

Page 7580

1 that the Prosecutor is asking him about.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, I don't recollect hearing the

3 word "misdemeanours."

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,, the word

5 misdemeanours or violations is clear, but it's not a crime. These are

6 completely -- two completely different things. In my language, in B/C/S,

7 it's a very clear word. And you can ask the accused to explain.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, and I acknowledge the difference between

9 misdemeanours and crimes. What I'm saying is that in the translation, we

10 didn't have the word "misdemeanours."

11 But I'm going ask the witness to explain what he means when he

12 said, "It is true there were investigations and that people were put in

13 prison."

14 What was investigated?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The police of the 1st Sarajevo

16 Brigade punished members of the 1st Sarajevo Brigade for violations, for

17 such as if there were any looting, running away from the line, not

18 responding in time to the summons to return to the unit after a leave of a

19 few days, this is the sort of thing that I was talking about.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: So you -- there would have been investigations

21 into violations such as looting and failing to report after taking leave

22 of absence?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, for drunkenness and cases like

24 that. These would be misdemeanours or violations which are quite normal

25 after two or three years, when people would tend to start behaving that

Page 7581

1 way.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.


4 Q. So, sir, I take it, then, to your knowledge there was never an

5 investigation into -- an investigation into the conduct by

6 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps soldiers for targeting civilians inside the city?

7 A. I'm repeating once more that I did not have the opportunity to see

8 firing at or the suffering of the civilian population in the centre of

9 town.

10 Q. I appreciate your answer, but my question was somewhat different.

11 I just want you to tell the Court whether you are aware during your time

12 in the 1st Sarajevo Brigade of any investigations into alleged conduct by

13 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps soldiers whereby civilians were targeted. If

14 you're not aware of any investigation, just say so.

15 A. I don't know about firing at the Sarajevo civilians even. And I

16 don't know about any investigations.

17 Q. Now, I understand that your role within the logistics battalion,

18 in that role you would have had a fair amount of knowledge of the -- let's

19 say the working functions or the operations of the other battalions within

20 the brigade. Is that a correct statement?

21 A. No. You are not right. I told you yesterday that we received

22 reports about attacks on the front lines, about the force of the attacks,

23 if help was necessary, and if it was we were sent to those locations that

24 needed assistance in order to hold the line.

25 Q. But as your -- in your job within the battalion, you would have

Page 7582

1 known about the relative situation with respect to ammunition within the

2 battalions or in respect to the fuel within the battalions. Is that a

3 correct understanding?

4 A. No.

5 Q. So you're saying that your job within the logistics battalion, you

6 knew nothing about the level of ammunition within the other battalions

7 within your brigade. Is that what you're saying?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So, in that case, I take it you really can't comment on whether

10 the other battalions had heavy weapons and other such ammunition. Is that

11 right?

12 A. I wasn't informed about the quantity of ammunition. Since I

13 worked as a vehicle electrician and I would go out into the field to

14 repair vehicles, so I was able to find out about the type of weaponry.

15 Q. So now I'm -- I'm starting to get confused. Are you -- would you

16 be aware of whether the other battalions in your brigade had, for example,

17 82-millimetre mortars, 120-millimetre mortars, Howitzers and so on?

18 A. I didn't have the opportunity to see the weapons. As you know,

19 that kind of weapon is deployed by military strategists.

20 Q. So then I take it that you do not know whether, in the period

21 October -- well, in the period of 1994, 1995 whether the other battalions

22 had 82-millimetre mortars, 120-millimetre mortars. That's something you

23 do not know, isn't it?

24 A. At that time all the heavy weapons, as I said yesterday, were

25 concentrated in warehouses of the Slobodan Princip Seljo barracks and the

Page 7583

1 blue helmets were there 24 hours a day.

2 Q. Yes, I appreciate that answer, but my suggestion to you is that

3 irrespective of whether the weapons were at the barracks, you don't know

4 whether the other battalions deployed such weapons along their territory,

5 because, as you've told the Court, that's not something within your

6 knowledge?

7 A. I know that according to the decision of our leadership of the

8 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and the Sarajevo-Romanija region in agreement with

9 I don't know who, the heavy weapons were pulled back and placed under the

10 surveillance of the blue helmets. After that, I didn't hear the firing

11 from our side of any artillery weapon.

12 Q. When you're saying the Sarajevo-Romanija region, are you talking

13 about the region within your brigade or throughout -- throughout the

14 region of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

15 A. I know that there was an order for the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

16 As far as we're concerned, the 1st Sarajevo Battalion, all the weapons

17 were pulled back to depots, and then later they were pulled out of an

18 exclusion zone of 20 kilometres, outside the Sarajevo.

19 Q. And how did you know about this order?

20 A. I heard about it from our officers and I saw when our heavy

21 weapons, the tanks, transporters, the heavy weaponry, was brought near the

22 technical workshop where I used to perform my maintenance duties.

23 Q. And I take it that's when the weapons were removed from the area

24 of the battalions; you weren't there at that time to see the removal of

25 the weapon, were you?

Page 7584

1 A. I was able to see when the tanks and the other heavy weaponry was

2 taken away, accompanied or escorted by the blue helmets and then later I

3 found out that the blue helmets had ordered that the weapons be pulled out

4 20 kilometres away from Sarajevo, and they were taken to some locations at

5 Jahorina and other places that the blue helmets chose.

6 Q. Well, let's try and be precise here. Are you saying that when the

7 weapons were taken away from the battalions within your brigade that you

8 were there at the time that they were removed, you were there with the

9 officers, the UNPROFOR officers with blue helmets. Is that what you're

10 telling the Court?

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there was an answer

13 to the same question two or three times and then it is still being

14 insisted on the same question. I mean, we can go on like this

15 indefinitely. If you give an answer to a question two or three times then

16 I don't understand the purpose of it. So I object to this manner of

17 questioning.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, generally, Mr. Sachdeva, I think you tend

19 to repeat the questions, but in this instance I believe it is permissible.

20 Answer the question, Witness.

21 Because counsel is allowed to clarify the questions and to seek a

22 clarification of the answers that he has -- that have been given. Counsel

23 is allowed to probe, Mr. Tapuskovic. But I agree, that where a clear

24 answer has been given, the question should not be asked again.

25 In this instance, the witness is to answer the question.

Page 7585

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand the question. I was

2 not with the UN officers at that point of time. I wasn't with the

3 officers of the army of Republika Srpska either. But I did see, because

4 the technical workshop is only 50 metres away from the warehouse where the

5 tanks and the weaponry was being stored. I could see when they left,

6 because the tanks had to pass along the road near the workshop. So I saw

7 them when they were leaving, when they were pulling out to 20 kilometres

8 away from the exclusion zone.


10 Q. But it's correct, is it not, that did you not see the

11 120-millimetre mortars or the 82-millimetre mortars being removed from

12 areas within the 3 or 4 battalions of the brigade. You did not see that

13 take place, did you?

14 A. When the personnel carriers and tanks were pulling out and when

15 the 150-millimetre weapons were being driven away, covered by tarpaulins,

16 I think that perhaps the mortars were also being taken away. I'm not

17 sure. But there were a lot of such weapons so I assume that all of these

18 weapons were being pulled out.

19 Q. Well, firstly, I take it then it's an assumption on your part, is

20 that right, that they were removed?

21 A. Yes. But, excuse me, only if we're talking about mortars, because

22 mortars have to be transported on vehicles. They cannot be moved without

23 vehicles.

24 Q. Yes. So your assumption is that the mortars were removed from the

25 areas of the battalion. It's not something you know.

Page 7586

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Sir, I suggest to you that when the weapons were taken back to the

3 barracks, the Slobodan Princip barracks, these weapons were malfunctioning

4 and were out of order. Do you agree with that?

5 A. No. For the simple reason that I know that all the tanks were

6 pulled back to the hangars and because the blue helmets knew we had a

7 technical workshop which was split into two for the repair of wheeled

8 vehicles and Caterpillar vehicles. And when the blue helmets were there,

9 we had two tanks and one BRD on repair, and every day, they would come at

10 least five or six times to inspect the tanks and the personnel carrier to

11 make sure that it hadn't gone anywhere.

12 Q. Witness, I want to show you a document.

13 MR. SACHDEVA: If I could have 65 ter 03149 brought up, please.

14 Q. And, sir, you're aware that the TEZ, the exclusion zone agreement,

15 was signed on or around the 9th or 8th of September -- 8th of February,

16 1994?

17 A. I would kindly ask for a hard copy again for me to me to be able

18 to see it.

19 MR. SACHDEVA: I have one.

20 Q. But can you first answer the question, that the TEZ agreement was

21 signed around -- on or around the 8th or 9th of February, 1994?

22 A. I did not memorise the date. I don't know.

23 Q. But roughly at that time.

24 A. As a plain soldier, I wasn't in a position to worry about such

25 things, for example, when agreements were signed. My primary concern was

Page 7587

1 to safe the lives of he members of my family and my children rather than

2 worrying about when agreements were signed.

3 Q. But you are aware, are you not, that the reason for the -- this

4 agreement, the reason why this agreement came into force was because of

5 the incident at the Markale market on the 5th of February, 1994. Is that

6 something that you're aware of?

7 A. I know of Markale. However, I also know about other speculations

8 concerning Markale. You know of Russian colonel who tried to explain that

9 no shell could have landed there. He was sent back to Russia, although he

10 was a member of UNPROFOR.

11 Q. Yes. If I want further information, I'll ask you. I simply want

12 you to tell the Court that you are aware that there was an incident at the

13 marketplace on the 5th of February, 1994, where civilians were killed.

14 You're aware of that incident, aren't you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now in this document that you're reading, you'll see that -- that

17 it emanates from the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command. You see that at the

18 top there?

19 A. Yes, commands of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps at Lukavica, I can

20 see that.

21 Q. And you see --

22 A. 10 of February 1994.

23 Q. And you see that it is -- it is being sent or it has been sent to

24 the Main Staff and the attention is to General Milovanovic. You see that

25 there?

Page 7588

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And the title or the subject matter is the proposal for setting

3 aside artillery. You can read that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And if you look at the first paragraph it is explained, I suggest

6 to you, that this is a proposal to -- a proposal put forward by General

7 Milosevic to ensure that even with the agreement, the Sarajevo-Romanija

8 Corps would not have to set aside all its heavy weaponry. You see at the

9 end of the first paragraph?

10 A. I don't see General Milosevic mentioned anywhere. What I see here

11 is General Milovanovic.

12 Q. I'll show you General Milosevic's signature at the end of the

13 document. But I just want you to concentrate on the first paragraph. And

14 in particular this sentence. You see that it says: "In addition, upon

15 the implementation of this proposal, the SRK forces would not suffer any

16 damages and would not be left without equipment since we would use a

17 diversionary tactic to set aside the equipment that is out of order and

18 for which we do not have sufficient quantities of ammunition."

19 You see that in the first paragraph?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you see where it states the proposal is the following.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And it says, "From the area of responsibility of the 1st Sarajevo

24 Mechanised Brigade," which is your brigade, I understand, "we would set

25 aside in total 16 artillery pieces, out of which ten have been received

Page 7589

1 from the Herzegovina Corps and are out of order." And in brackets it says

2 2 Howitzers, 105-millimetre, three 76-metre field guns, 2 anti-tank guns

3 one PAT anti-aircraft gun and one 120-millimetre mortar.

4 Do you see that?

5 A. Yes, I do. Yes.

6 Q. So it's clear, isn't it, from this document, that the map was to

7 remove the weapons that were non-functioning and weapons which -- which --

8 for which there was not sufficient ammunition, but to, I suggest to you,

9 but to keep the heavy weapons in the field that would still provide

10 support to the SRK?

11 A. I didn't see them, and I know nothing of this.

12 Q. So your evidence about whether the weapons were removed and the

13 weapons being stored at the barracks is not totally correct, is it?

14 A. It is absolutely correct that I saw our tanks leave from the

15 hangar next to the workshop in the direction of Jahorina.

16 Q. And so you don't know, do you, that there was a plan to camouflage

17 other heavy weapons in the area of the Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade, so as

18 to -- so as to -- to fall foul of the UNPROFOR monitoring. In other

19 words, UNPROFOR would not be able to monitor these weapons that were

20 camouflaged?

21 A. I know that UNPROFOR had no restrictions of movement. They had

22 access everywhere. Their soldiers moved about residential areas inhabited

23 by civilians. I know specifically that my children, too, would run away

24 upon seeing them, because that was the amount of fear that by that time

25 was in any civilian or a child when seeing any other soldier other than a

Page 7590

1 VRS soldier.

2 Q. Sir, can I ask you to go to the last page of this document. And I

3 just want you to confirm that that is the -- you will see there that is

4 signed by the deputy commander, Colonel Dragomir Milosevic. You see that?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I tender this document into

7 evidence.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.

9 THE REGISTRAR: As P802, Your Honours.


11 Q. Now, Witness, in -- I'm finished with the document, so you

12 could -- you can put the document down.

13 Yesterday when answering questions -- answering the questions of

14 Mr. Tapuskovic, the -- counsel asked you when the general, General

15 Milosevic came into --

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Mr. Tapuskovic, did you wish to

17 see that document? You were gesticulating and I was trying to understand

18 the gesticulation.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have that

20 document here. I wanted to ask for the document to remain with the

21 witness since I will have additional questions on that.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Very well. Yes, please. Let the document

23 be passed back to the witness.


25 Q. Witness, General Milosevic took over the command of the

Page 7591

1 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps on around August 1994. That's right, isn't it?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And yesterday Mr. Tapuskovic asked you after August 1994 what

4 those first few months were like, and you answered: "We were issued an

5 order then. It wasn't a prohibition, but an order that we were not

6 permitted to fire from infantry or artillery weapons until mid-October,

7 from what I can remember."

8 You remember that answer?

9 A. I do, but I don't think that is exactly the way I put it.

10 Q. Well, I'll read the question. Then I'll read you the answer.

11 The question was: "And the first" --

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.

13 Mr. Tapuskovic. Did you wish to say something, Mr. Tapuskovic, or

14 will you allow counsel to put the question?

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I will allow the counsel, since

16 my objection had to do with that. If we put it to the witness, if we put

17 what he said yesterday to him, then the question is all right. If

18 Mr. Sachdeva intends to show him exactly what it is that he said, then

19 there is no need for me to intervene.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Sachdeva.


22 Q. Witness, what I asked you just a moment ago was what I was reading

23 from the transcript yesterday at page 63 and the question was, "And the

24 first months when he arrived, what were they like, the months from August

25 on and then until the end of 1994?" That was the question.

Page 7592

1 And your answer, and I quote: "We were issued an order then. It

2 wasn't a prohibition, but an order that we were not permitted to fire from

3 infantry or artillery weapons from mid-October, from what I can remember."

4 That was your answer. Do you remember that answer?

5 A. I remember the answer, but the idea was not conveyed. What I said

6 was that between August until mid-October it was quiet, and that we were

7 given express orders not to use either infantry or artillery weapons.

8 Q. And so what I want to ask you is that after October when -- when

9 maybe it wasn't so quiet, were you then permitted whether in retaliation

10 or in other circumstances, were you then permitted to fire, to use

11 infantry and artillery weapons?

12 A. By the end of October, there may have been some provocations at

13 the front lines. At first, they were sporadic and then they intensified.

14 We had to respond by using infantry weapons, unless we failed to do that,

15 we would be killed.

16 Q. And you responded by infantry weapons. Did you also, or not

17 necessarily just you, but your colleagues also respond with artillery

18 fire?

19 A. Sir, there was no artillery at the front lines, particularly not

20 in Dobrinja IV where I was. What was there was infantry and infantry

21 weapons.

22 Q. Well, I used word "artillery" because you mentioned it yesterday

23 in your answer. So let me put it this way. Even if there was not

24 artillery at the front lines, if required, artillery support could have

25 been called for, is that right?

Page 7593

1 A. We didn't need any artillery in a residential area. We were

2 separated by a street only. Therefore, there was no use of any artillery.

3 Q. So why did you mention artillery yesterday?

4 A. I mentioned artillery because it was an express order, and I

5 repeat an express order not to fire from either infantry or artillery

6 weapons. That is what we were said. It was also said that we were not

7 even to use a slingshot.

8 Q. And the order with respect to infantry fire and artillery weapons,

9 presumably, artillery weapons included mortars, 82-millimetre mortars,

10 120-millimetre mortars, Howitzers, tanks, that's how you understood the

11 order. Is that right?

12 A. No, I can't say that only those represent artillery. There's also

13 anti-aircraft artillery. Anything beyond 12 millimetres is artillery.

14 Q. But artillery would also include tanks and 120 and 80-millimetre

15 mortars. Isn't that right?

16 A. Yes, but also what I said.

17 Q. I understand that. So if, as you've testified today, all the

18 heavy weapons were removed, why would there be a need for an order not to

19 fire from these weapons, if they did not exist on the front lines?

20 A. The order was issued in its entirety, meaning that no combat

21 activity was to be conducted at the front lines facing the enemy. That

22 was the overall idea.

23 Q. Yes. You're not actually answering my question. You have given

24 evidence today that all the heavy weapons were removed after the TEZ

25 agreement, and I'm suggesting to you that an order that you are aware of

Page 7594

1 that called for -- that called on you and your soldiers not to fire from

2 artillery and infantry weapons suggests, doesn't it, that indeed artillery

3 weapons were not removed and they still were in use?

4 A. No. To repeat yet again, the order was that we must not attack

5 the enemy front lines by using either infantry or artillery weapons, not

6 even with slingshots. We were not even allowed to cast a stone, let alone

7 anything else. That was the way I understood it, and that was the order

8 that was conveyed to us.

9 Q. Yes. I'm not disputing what the order said.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva, you have explored this point

11 sufficiently.


13 Q. Now, Witness, earlier today I was asking you about the battalions

14 within your brigade, and can you confirm that there was within one of the

15 battalions a specialised sniping detachment within the Sarajevo -- the 1st

16 Sarajevo Brigade?

17 A. The 1st Sarajevo Brigade, I claim it with full responsibility, did

18 not have a single sharpshooter, let alone an entire detachment.

19 Q. So, there were no snipers or soldiers with rifles positioned at

20 the shopping buildings in Grbavica? You're not aware of that?

21 A. There were soldiers around with rifles, yes. But there is a

22 distinction or at least it has to be made between a sniper rifle and a

23 regular rifle. For example, I had a rifle, a regular one.

24 Q. Witness, within your brigade there was a 2nd Battalion. Is that

25 right?

Page 7595

1 A. Believe me, I don't know this division by battalions. I cannot

2 reply to that.

3 Q. There was a battalion that had in its AOR, area of responsibility,

4 Grbavica and its surrounding areas?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And a very senior soldier within that battalion, the 2nd

7 Battalion, has told -- has given a statement to the ICTY that there was

8 indeed a specialised sniper detachment within the 1st Sarajevo Brigade.

9 Does that cause you to reflect upon your answer earlier?

10 A. No. Again, I can tell you that I never saw or heard a sniper

11 being fired in the 1st Sarajevo Brigade. At least not where I was, which

12 is predominantly in the area of Dobrinja.

13 Q. Do you ever go to Grbavica during the war as a soldier?

14 A. No.

15 Q. So you don't know, do you, whether there was a sniper detachment

16 in that area?

17 A. I don't know whether it existed, whether such a sniping detachment

18 existed. I know that the road between Sarajevo and Pale was covered by

19 snipers.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: When counsel is on his feet, you must stop.

21 What is it, Mr. Tapuskovic?

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness

23 answered twice saying he doesn't know. He said that there were none where

24 he was. He said he wasn't at Grbavica, and yet the question is being put

25 for the third time. It goes on, just like it did before. I understand

Page 7596

1 that an issue needs to be cleared up, but if the witness has given a clear

2 answer, saying he didn't know and there were none where he was and that he

3 was not in Grbavica where there might have been some, then that's it. I

4 don't think one needs to insist so many times on the same question to

5 which the witness had already given answers twice.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Sachdeva.

7 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I suggest, I submit that I was not

8 repeating my question. I wanted to establish that he was not in Grbavica

9 and therefore I put the logical conclusion that he would not know and he

10 confirmed that, and that's all I need to do.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Very well. Move on.


13 Q. Mr. Mandic, you're aware, aren't you, that within the Sarajevo

14 Brigade, there were modified air bombs?

15 A. This is the first time I hear of it.

16 Q. Have you heard of a modified air bomb before, or what a modified

17 air bomb is?

18 A. I don't know what a modified air bomb is. The only time I saw any

19 air bombs was on television.

20 Q. You worked in the logistics battalion and you've given evidence

21 about tanks and other weapons, and you're now telling the Court that you

22 have never heard of a modified air bomb?

23 A. I don't know if air bombs have anything to do with the tanks or

24 the 150 Dites [phoen] or any other wheeled vehicle.

25 Q. Well, modified air bombs are weapons, aren't they? They're heavy

Page 7597

1 weapons, aren't they?

2 A. I don't know. I have never seen it.

3 Q. Did you ever hear about modified air bombs being used by your

4 brigade?

5 A. No.

6 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I'd like to show the witness 65 ter

7 02584.

8 Q. Witness, would you like me to provide you a hard copy or are you

9 able to read that on the screen?

10 A. A hard copy, please.

11 Q. You see at the top firstly it says logistics, doesn't it?

12 A. Yes. I see where it says command of the 1st Sarajevo Brigade and

13 then logistics, yes. Yes, I see it.

14 Q. And you see that it's signed by the commander of the brigade,

15 Veljko Stojanovic?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you will agree with me that this is a request for an air bomb

18 launcher to be given to the 1st Sarajevo Brigade from the Igman Infantry

19 Brigade. You can see that this is that request, can't you?

20 A. From what I understand here, this was not done at logistics or at

21 the technical workshop of the 1st Sarajevo Brigade. But the technical

22 workshop had several sectors, it had locksmiths, mechanics, painters,

23 electrical sections, so everything that was required to maintain vehicles,

24 it had.

25 Q. And this document appears to you to be a valid and legitimate

Page 7598

1 document, doesn't it?

2 A. Can you just please just allow me to read it properly, because I

3 see that Hadzici is mentioned here and ...

4 This was probably done in the technical and maintenance section of

5 Hadzici, and I didn't go there.

6 Q. But you agree with me that is a request for an air bomb launcher,

7 don't you?

8 A. That's what it says.

9 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I tender this document into

10 evidence.


12 THE REGISTRAR: As P803, Your Honours.


14 Q. And, Witness, I would like to show you another document.

15 MR. SACHDEVA: If 65 ter 02587 could be brought up.

16 Q. And I have the hard copy for you.

17 Witness, firstly you will note that the first document I showed

18 you was dated the 20th of August, 1995, and you will see this document is

19 dated the 22nd of August, 1995. Do you see that there?

20 A. Yes, I do.

21 Q. Just take a moment to read this document and I'll ask you a few

22 questions.

23 A. I've read it.

24 Q. Firstly you'll see that this is signed by Mr. Solar, who was

25 within the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command in logistics. You see that

Page 7599

1 there?

2 A. I do.

3 Q. And there is an order in response to the previous document I

4 showed you, and it is upon the request of the brigade commander,

5 Mr. Stojanovic, it is an order to release an air bomb launcher for the

6 purposes of the 1st Sarajevo Brigade. Isn't what this document is?

7 A. I see the document, but all of this was happening far from

8 Lukavica at the Hadzici technical maintenance facility, and it could be

9 something to do with the Igman Brigade. In any case, I wasn't able to

10 know about these things, because I didn't have the opportunity to see

11 that.

12 Q. You were in the logistics battalion for the duration of the

13 conflict, weren't you, of the 1st Sarajevo Brigade?

14 A. Yes, in the technical workshop.

15 Q. And on seeing these two documents is it still your evidence that

16 you know nothing about the use of modified air bombs by your brigade?

17 A. Yes, I still assert that, because they were not used in the area

18 where I was.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, I don't see anything wrong with

20 that question. Counsel is allowed to probe. He has put a document and he

21 is entitled to, once again, ascertain whether the witness maintains his

22 testimony.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't want to bother you, Your

24 Honours. I'll have the opportunity to deal with this later.

25 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I tender this document into

Page 7600

1 evidence.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.

3 THE REGISTRAR: As P804, Your Honours.


5 Q. Witness, I want to show you another document, and I -- I don't

6 know if I have a hard copy in B/C/S here.

7 MR. SACHDEVA: In any event, it's 65 ter 03199.

8 Q. Witness, unfortunately, I don't have a hard copy in your

9 language. Are you able to see on the screen, are you able to read that

10 document on the screen?

11 MR. SACHDEVA: Perhaps it could be enlarged.

12 Q. Just take a moment to read this document.

13 A. I've read it.

14 Q. Sir, you'll see that this is an approval for the -- an approval by

15 the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command for the issuance of ammunition to the

16 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade. Isn't that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you'll see that in items 8 and 9, the approval is for 40

19 pieces of 82-millimetre mortar rounds and 40 pieces of 120-millimetre

20 rounds. You'll see that there?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you see the date is the 25th of July, 1995?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So it's correct, isn't it, Witness, that the heavy weapons, all

25 the heavy weapons were not removed from the brigade, as the agreement

Page 7601

1 stipulated?

2 A. Well, we're talking about a fierce offensive on the Trnovo front

3 here. So I don't know if the mortars came from other brigades, but I say

4 it again, I never saw that the 1st Sarajevo Brigade had heavy weaponry

5 after the pull-out.

6 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I'd like to tender this document

7 into evidence.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.

9 THE REGISTRAR: As P805, Your Honours.


11 Q. Witness, I'm finished with the document, so you can put the

12 document down.

13 Are you aware of a location called Ozrenska Street?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you were aware that from that -- at least from certain parts

16 of that street there was a commanding view of the city of Sarajevo, wasn't

17 there?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And if I told you that a senior person within the 2nd battalion of

20 your brigade has told the ICTY that there were sniper positions in -- in a

21 house on Ozrenska street, is that something that you would agree with or

22 know about?

23 A. I don't know about that. I know that the line in Ozrenska was

24 just -- the lines at Ozrenska were just four to six metres apart.

25 Q. And you know that from Ozrenska Street, Sarajevo-Romanija Corps

Page 7602

1 soldiers with rifles would fire into enemy territory, that is, into the

2 lines controlled by the ABiH. Isn't that right?

3 A. No. We opened fire at their front line, meaning when they fired

4 provocation fire or wished to destroy us, then we had to respond. But we

5 would fire at the front line.

6 Q. Did you ever fire from Ozrenska Street? Did you personally ever

7 fire from Ozrenska Street?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So you were situated where in Ozrenska Street? From where did you

10 fire?

11 A. The Miliklanska and Ozrenska intersection, from there.

12 Q. And were you in a house, an abandoned house?

13 A. No. We had dug a trench.

14 Q. And from that trench, did you have a view of the city, a

15 commanding view of the Sarajevo city?

16 A. From the trench, we could only see four enemy bunkers which were

17 in houses across the road, and while I was there, three fighters of the

18 army of Republika Srpska were killed in that trench.

19 Q. How long were you there for?

20 A. I was attached there for about ten days.

21 Q. How many times? Was it just one time that you were attached there

22 or did you go there more than one time?

23 A. Only once to that place.

24 Q. And how many soldiers were with you when you were there?

25 A. Mostly there were two, possibly three, if an attack was expected

Page 7603

1 during the night.

2 Q. What sort of weapons did you have?

3 A. We had automatic rifles and black hand grenades.

4 Q. And these automatic rifles, they had a range of 500 metres. Is

5 that right? Or was it a longer range?

6 A. An automatic rifle has a range of 2.000 metres, but the only thing

7 is it's not precise.

8 Q. So you're saying that at the very least, one could hit a target

9 1000 metres away from the rifle you had. Is that right?

10 A. No. You could hit a target precisely up to 100 metres, and this

11 by a good marksman.

12 Q. Could you not hit a car 500 metres away with that rifle?

13 A. I didn't have the opportunity to fire in order to test it. If it

14 was a moving car, then I don't think so.

15 Q. Yes. I'm not asking whether you yourself fired. I'm suggesting

16 to, actually I'm asking you that within an M48 you could hit a car,

17 whether it was stationery or not?

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: You earlier put 500 metres.

19 MR. SACHDEVA: Up to 500 metres, yes.

20 A. It's not the same thing to fire at a moving or a stationary

21 target.

22 Q. Well, let's put it this way: If there was a stationary target,

23 let's say the car had stopped at traffic lights. Up to 500 metres from

24 the rifle you had, that car could be engaged, could it not?

25 A. No. And there were no traffic lights.

Page 7604

1 Q. From the position you were in Ozrenska Street you've already said

2 that you had a view of the city. Is that right?

3 A. No.

4 Q. So what could you see from where you were?

5 A. Four-storeyed houses, four bunkers.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, well, he has

8 responded for the second time to the same question in the same way. I

9 don't understand why the same thing is being put to him several times.

10 Just before he said that he could just see trenches opposite from him

11 which were four metres away or however he put it and now this is an even

12 more detailed explanation of what he was able to see, but this is a

13 question that is being repeated, but he did say specifically what he was

14 able to see from the trench that he was in.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: He didn't have a view of the city but he was able

16 to see four-storeyed houses and bunkers.

17 Yes, proceed.


19 Q. Witness, I'm going to ask you to mark your precise location on a

20 map. Would you be able to do that?

21 A. I don't believe that I would be able to do that. It's very

22 simple, also for you to find the intersection of the Miliklanska and

23 Ozrenska streets.

24 Q. Well, I'd like to you do that if you don't mind. Let's see how we

25 proceed.

Page 7605

1 MR. SACHDEVA: If I could have the map 2872.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: But he says that he doesn't believe that he would

3 be able to do it. So if that answer is to be accepted, how can you ask

4 him to do it?

5 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, my submission is that he doesn't --

6 he says he doesn't believe. However, there is still a possibility that he

7 might be able to if I show him the map. If he can't with the map in front

8 of him, then I'll move on.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Show it to him then.

10 MR. SACHDEVA: If the -- if the middle bottom part could be

11 enlarged, please. And maybe scrolled up a little bit.

12 Q. Witness, do you want me to enlarge the map further or are you able

13 to roughly point out your location where you were for ten days?

14 A. Please believe me, I never worked with maps, so it's very hard for

15 me to find my way around a map.

16 Q. Well, I'll then show you a photograph.

17 If I can have 65 ter 3352 brought up on the screen, please. And

18 if this could not be broadcast, since it is an exhibit from the Galic case

19 under seal.

20 Can the photograph be enlarged; is that possible?

21 Now, Witness, this is a photograph taken from Ozrenska Street,

22 isn't it?

23 A. It's possible, but I was never there.

24 Q. And from this position, you can see the city of Sarajevo down

25 there, can't you?

Page 7606

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And during the conflict there was a position here with soldiers --

3 SRK soldiers with rifles. Isn't that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And you will see that in the photograph there is a red circle. Do

6 you see that red circle?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And I think if you look closely, that red circle -- well, I'm

9 suggesting to you that the red circle indicates where a transversal or a

10 cross-roads in the city existed. Would you agree with that?

11 A. The town was full of cross-roads.

12 Q. But what's in this location in the circle is just one of those

13 cross-roads. Isn't that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And it's correct, isn't it, that soldiers with rifles from this

16 location targeted civilians crossing at that point, didn't they?

17 A. I would like to see a soldier who would hit a civilian from this

18 distance from a rifle. It's impossible.

19 Q. So can you just answer my question. Were civilians targeted at

20 that cross-roads from this position, according to your knowledge?


22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that this

23 is probably the 20th question that has to do with civilians and the

24 deliberate firing at civilians. So far he has at least given 15 answers

25 about that, and now again the question is repeated, whereas he talked

Page 7607

1 about the attitude that at least was his in terms of civilians. I'm not

2 mistaken if I say that this is the 10th or the 15th time that the same

3 question is being put to the witness. And he answered the previous

4 question that it was impossible for anyone to be hit from that place from

5 that distance.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva, is there another repetition?

7 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I'll move on.



10 Q. Witness, but I suggest to you that it would be possible if there

11 were weapons with optical sights on them or if binoculars were used. I'm

12 not saying it happened, but people could be engaged from this distance,

13 couldn't they?

14 A. I am telling you that I would place myself in that position and a

15 world championship in marksmanship would not be able to hit me. We were

16 not able to stand up to make a shot like that, because the lines were

17 right next to us in the houses that you can see.

18 Q. Yes. I don't think you've answered my question. My suggestion to

19 you is that if there were optical sights on these rifles or if binoculars

20 were used, persons could be engaged from that location. Do you agree or

21 do you disagree?

22 A. I disagree. You could fire randomly, but you wouldn't be able to

23 hit anyone.

24 Q. So Sarajevo-Romanija Corps soldiers would fire randomly from this

25 position, I suggest to you.

Page 7608

1 A. No. I said it's possible to fire, but since the lines were

2 extremely close together, you can see where these houses are. There was

3 nobody who dared stand up and fire from that place because they would be

4 seen. It's impossible.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll take the break now.

6 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Sachdeva.

9 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, may I ask that this photograph be

10 admitted into evidence.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.

12 MR. SACHDEVA: Under seal.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Under seal.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be admitted as P806, under

15 seal.


17 Q. Witness, just a last couple of questions now. You remember you

18 told the Court that there were -- that there were cross-roads in the town

19 of Sarajevo. Remember that?

20 A. Yes. The city is full of cross-roads.

21 Q. And you're aware that at these cross-roads there were protective

22 barriers or containers erected there. You're aware of that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And these protective barriers or containers were there to protect

25 civilians, weren't they?

Page 7609

1 A. Yes, as it was on our side, too.

2 Q. And on -- at least on the cross-roads within the territory of the

3 ABiH in Sarajevo, they were erected there because civilians were

4 occasionally hit by fire from the SRK. Isn't that right?

5 A. In some cases, it was propaganda as well.

6 Q. But in some cases, civilians were hit from fire from the SRK,

7 weren't they?


9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the number of

10 questions to which the witness has answered increases, concerning the

11 targeting of civilians. He was quite specific about it and for ten or 15

12 times he's tried to answer it. This is just another way to put the same

13 question.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: This is in a different context, Mr. Tapuskovic.


16 Q. Sir, will you answer my question? I'm suggesting to that you in

17 some cases, those cases that you say -- I'm not talking about the cases

18 that you say were propaganda, but in some cases civilians at those

19 cross-roads were hit by fire from the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

20 A. My answer was clear. The same thing was on our side.

21 Q. So your answer is yes?

22 A. On both sides.

23 Q. Now, do you know of the sky-scrapers at Lenjinova Street?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And I -- well, it's right, isn't it, that there were SRK soldiers

Page 7610

1 on those sky-scrapers during the conflict, weren't there?

2 A. I don't know that.

3 Q. You never heard about that?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you know who Ivkovic Nebojsa was?

6 A. No.

7 Q. How about Marinko Krneta?

8 A. No.

9 Q. How about Zeljko Jadranic?

10 A. No. I did not spend any time in those areas.

11 Q. Well, I'm not talking about those areas. I'm just asking you

12 whether you know these people. How about Milenko Mitric, did you ever

13 hear about him?

14 A. No.

15 Q. And how about Dragan Atanakovic?

16 A. No.

17 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, may I just have one second to confer

18 with my colleague, please.

19 [Prosecution counsel confer]

20 MR. SACHDEVA: That's the cross-examination, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

22 Any re-examination, Mr. Tapuskovic?

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it seems I will

24 have a number of questions, but I will try to be as efficient as possible.

25 Re-examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

Page 7611

1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Mandic, throughout those years -- and I'm not

2 making a distinction between the period of time pertaining to Dragomir

3 Milosevic and what preceded that period, but throughout those years did

4 you ever see a written orders that a civilian should be made target?

5 A. Not only that I did not see such an order, but it was strictly

6 forbidden for us to target civilians.

7 Q. Thank you. Did anyone ever tell you anything like that?

8 A. No, never.

9 Q. Thank you. If someone said something like that to you, what would

10 you do?

11 A. I would refuse to carry out such an order.

12 Q. Concerning the photograph --

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps we can have P806 shown

14 to the witness again.

15 Q. While waiting for the photograph to appear, you said that in your

16 trenches, in your street, three of your co-fighters were killed?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. In Ozrenska Street, your street, how many casualties were there

19 among the soldiers and civilians?

20 A. Exceptionally many.

21 Q. Please explain why, why in that place in particular?

22 A. Because the separation line or lines were separated by only four

23 to six metres. When the truce came into force on our side, we no longer

24 opened fire. However, the opposing side kept opening fire. They would

25 hit residential buildings and houses were civilians still resided. People

Page 7612

1 would relax in such periods, and what would happened -- happen was that

2 then they would get hit by snipers or mortar shells.

3 Q. Have a look at the photograph.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. From these positions, or, rather, you talked about these positions

6 a while ago. You said what would have happened had you tried to stand

7 up. What was happening when you were in places such as this one?

8 A. In Ozrenska Street, we were in trenches only, while the other side

9 was in the houses which were additionally reinforced by some panels.

10 Q. Can you tell us who was in the houses that we can see here in the

11 front row?

12 A. The enemy forces.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Sachdeva.

14 MR. SACHDEVA: I withdraw that, Mr. President.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. What could you see from your trench in a situation such as this

17 one?

18 A. We could see perhaps one metre above the ground, since we were

19 below it in the trenches. Therefore, I could see from my trench four

20 houses and four trenches in them, whereas we had that one trench only.

21 That's it.

22 Q. When looking at the photograph, the hills in the background --

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. -- which hills are those and who was positioned there?

25 A. That is Hum. All of those hills that we can see were 100 per cent

Page 7613

1 occupied by the AB and H.

2 Q. Thank you. Let us have a look at a prosecution exhibit. That is

3 P802. The date is the 10th of February.

4 Can you tell the Judges what the date is on the document?

5 A. 10 February 1994.

6 Q. Thank you. There are three paragraphs there. Can you read the

7 third one on page 1.

8 A. "The pieces from the 4th" --

9 Q. No, no, no, no. It says the Main Staff, General Milovanovic and

10 then the three paragraphs. The last one.

11 A. "We are doing this because our commission was required to act upon

12 the agreement reached with the Muslim side on the 9th of February, 1994."

13 Q. Was that the next day, after the agreement was signed, as would

14 seem from this document?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What follows under the paragraph you just read out?

17 A. "The proposal is the following."

18 Q. Yes. Yes, thank you. I won't ask you for your opinion, but if it

19 is stated as such what does it mean in our language. Can you explain

20 this, "the proposal is the following"?

21 A. "In order to honour the agreement and to withdraw heavy

22 artillery."

23 Q. Yes, but it was only a proposal?

24 A. Yes.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva is on his feet.

Page 7614

1 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, that last question was leading, in

2 my submission, especially in re-examination.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I'm not so sure, Mr. Sachdeva.

4 But carry on, Mr. Tapuskovic.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. If we turn to page 2, who signed the document?

7 A. Mr. Dragomir Milosevic.

8 Q. Yes. But what does it say? What was he?

9 A. Deputy commander, colonel.

10 Q. When Dragomir Milosevic assumed the position of commander,

11 concerning the things you said about heavy weaponry, where you were, were

12 things as shown here when it comes to heavy weaponry?

13 A. No. But that time, the heavy weaponry had been withdrawn.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have a look at P803

16 next.

17 Q. I guess you can see the document.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What is the date of the document?

20 A. The 20th of August, 1995.

21 Q. Can you try and read the handwritten note?

22 A. "Logistics, check what can be done about this and respond."

23 Q. Thank you. If you look at the text, please look at the second

24 line. What does it say after "brigade"?

25 A. It says: "Approve the installing."

Page 7615

1 Q. Thank you. Please read out the last sentence. Igmanska?

2 A. "Igman infantry brigade at RM/V51314SK because in order to produce

3 this new launcher we are still unable to do so, since we are unable to

4 secure the necessary technical materiel."

5 Q. I won't ask you to make any conclusions as to that. But can one

6 conclude whether the launcher existed at all?

7 A. I conclude, based on this, that they were not in the position to

8 make such a launcher.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's have a look at P804.

11 It is a Prosecution Exhibit; the number is P804. I don't have it

12 in my hands.

13 Q. Please have a look at the penultimate paragraph, the biggest one,

14 but in particular its last sentence. Please read out loud.

15 A. I'm not sure which of the two documents you mean.

16 Q. Please have a look at the date.

17 A. The 22nd of August, 1995.

18 Q. That's the one.

19 A. "In carrying out this order, the command" --

20 Q. No, no. Thank you. We don't have the time. What date is it?

21 A. The 22nd of August, 1995.

22 Q. Have a look at the longest paragraph and read out loud the last

23 sentence of it.

24 A. "Command."

25 Q. No. The last sentence of that paragraph.

Page 7616

1 A. "Once the launcher," is that it?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. "Once the launcher has been installed on the selected vehicle, the

4 1st Motorised Brigade shall take over the launcher from Hadzici RZ and

5 transfer it to the unit."

6 Q. If you recall the previous document and having read this one, was

7 there a launcher in existence?

8 A. In seems that one was never made, no.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] P805, please.

11 Q. The date is what?

12 A. The 25th of July, 1995.

13 Q. Let's go slowly. Let's wait for the document first.

14 What is the date?

15 A. The 25th of July, 1995.

16 Q. Read out loud the last sentence of the last paragraph.

17 A. "In addition" --

18 Q. No, sorry, my mistake. Start with the word "especially,"

19 or "separately." Start with the words "we point out, or we are

20 particularly warning of," and then the rest.

21 Mr. Mandic, you began reading the first sentence. What I'm

22 telling you is do not read the first one but everything that follows. "We

23 are warning" --

24 A. "We would like to warn you that due to technical problems in the

25 production, the replenishment with D30 122-millimetre rounds and T55

Page 7617

1 100-millimetre rounds is not to be expected any time soon."

2 Q. Thank you.

3 When we looked at the previous document and we have this date the

4 25th of July and you were also answering to the Prosecutor's questions,

5 during that time what was going on in the area of responsibility of the

6 SRK?

7 A. Right at this moment there was a particularly fierce offensive

8 going on in Trnovo.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva -- just a minute, please.

10 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, the area of responsibility of the

11 SRK is a huge area and so if my learned friend is asking the witness to

12 talk about activities, for example, in Mrkovici or in Vogosca, I can't see

13 how this witness would know about that.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Of course I wanted to ask him

16 that next. Since he was in Lukavica and it was the time of the very

17 fierce offensive, as he said, what was the situation like in Lukavica,

18 Grbavica, and your immediate environs in June and July, 1995?

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, you must wait for me to rule on

20 the objection. The objection has been raised.

21 But ask the witness the question that you just posed to him, the

22 basis of his knowledge.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I understood that the objection

24 was founded, but I wanted to ask the witness what he knows about the

25 period.

Page 7618

1 Q. You told me yesterday what sort of operations you participated in.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may have a moment, please.

3 Q. Yesterday you were speaking about an action in which you took part

4 in a street. Do you recall that?

5 A. Yes, I recall it was in Danila Ponjarca street in Dobrinja IV.

6 Q. And then can you please respond?

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, don't respond before we hear from

8 Mr. Sachdeva.

9 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, now my objection is, I don't see how

10 this arises out of cross-examination, especially if Mr. Tapuskovic is

11 going back to evidence that he elicited yesterday.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't see how it arises, either.

13 Put another question, Mr. Tapuskovic.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm only thinking

15 of dealing with the document of the 25th of July and I was about to ask

16 the witness what his knowledge was about the combat actions in the time

17 covered by this document, the 25th of July, 1995, in view of what he said

18 yesterday about June and July.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In June and July --

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, no, don't answer. I have ruled against it.

21 Move on.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, but

23 that was the time of the fiercest clashes on offensive. I can tell the

24 Court that. But I have no questions.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Take your seat, Mr. Tapuskovic, before you run

Page 7619

1 into trouble.

2 Witness, that concludes your evidence. We thank you for coming to

3 the Tribunal to give it. You may now leave.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, might I have -- might I change

7 places with my colleague, Ms. Edgerton?

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Certainly.

9 The next witness, Mr. Tapuskovic?

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one moment, Your Honours.

11 The next witness is Rade Ivanovic. I don't have the T number.

12 T-22.

13 [The witness entered court]

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

16 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

20 And you may begin, Mr. Tapuskovic.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

22 Examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

23 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, as you know, I represent General

24 Dragomir Milosevic, and in order for us to proceed in the best possible

25 way, can we communicate as slowly as possible, and can you please pay

Page 7620

1 attention to the monitor in front of you and please do not begin your

2 answer until everything that I have said is noted in the transcript. I'm

3 also going to take care so that our examination-in-chief can proceed

4 smoothly.

5 Can you please tell the Judges your first and last name?

6 A. Rade Ivanovic.

7 Q. You can just reply with a yes to the following questions.

8 You were born on the 22nd of November, 1944?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You were born in Trnovo?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you please wait for the entire question.

13 In Sarajevo, in one of the ten Sarajevo municipalities?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You completed elementary school in Trnovo and secondary and

16 teachers high school in the academy of pedagogy in Sarajevo?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you performed your civic duty in terms of serving in the

19 Yugoslav Peoples Army in 1970. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Until 1982 you worked as a teacher in the Trnovo school?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. From 1982 until 1990, you worked in Trnovo as the chief of the

24 police station.

25 A. Yes.

Page 7621

1 Q. From 1990 until the 21st of April, 1992 you were an inspector for

2 general crime in the public security station of the Trnovo municipality.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you please tell the Judges what happened on the 21st of April,

5 1992?

6 A. Until April -- 21st of April, 1992, the police in Trnovo worked

7 together, it was a multi-ethnic police force, Serb and Muslim. On the

8 21st of April, a police patrol out on traffic duties was attacked by the

9 Green Berets when three policemen were killed. Among them was one Serb

10 and two Muslims. That's when the police split into a Serb and Muslim

11 part, because the police officers who were at the police station, Serbs,

12 did not feel safe any longer, and they split off from the station. They

13 left the station. And that was when a separate Serb police station was

14 formed.

15 Q. Thank you. So what did you become after that?

16 A. As I already said in response to your question, as I was the chief

17 of the Trnovo municipality police station until the 21st of April, the

18 other officers asked me to be their chief in view of my experience so that

19 they could self-organise and protect their families and households in the

20 eventuality of any disagreements with the Muslim side.

21 Q. Thank you. And how long were you the Trnovo police station chief?

22 A. I was the Trnovo police station chief until the 31st of July,

23 1992.

24 In the meantime, in the villages, outlying villages, in the Trnovo

25 municipality, which were mostly under the control of the Muslim forces, a

Page 7622

1 vast number of crimes occurred. From the 3rd of June until the 7th of

2 July, 1992, more than 100 civilians were killed, mostly the elderly and

3 the infirm and then a few children as well. In the village of Ledici

4 there was an attack carried out on the 3rd of June. It was an ethnically

5 pure Serb village.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton is on her feet. Please stop.

7 Ms. Edgerton.

8 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, I would submit that is not only

9 irrelevant, but the question that was asked was actually effectively

10 answered by the witness when he said he was Trnovo police station chief

11 until the 31st of July, 1992. So it has been asked and answered.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us deal with the relevance aspect.

13 What do you say to that, Mr. Tapuskovic? The evidence about the

14 number of civilians being killed.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I can repeat what I have already

16 said many times before.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us hear it again.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] As I talked about it many times

19 before, throughout this period and particularly during the mandate of

20 Mr. Dragomir Milosevic, during the time that he was on duty, I insisted on

21 a question or a topic or a problem that the intensity of combat of both

22 sides, particularly the combat of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

23 during the subject period relating to Dragomir Milosevic, asserting that,

24 if I can put it that way, the activities of the SRK - and this is what was

25 the subject of my discussion, and we were supposed to speak about the

Page 7623

1 activities of the SRK - was a response to the activities of the army of

2 Bosnia and Herzegovina, and this was not a question of attacks on

3 civilians. And that victims in the territory under the control of the SRK

4 are indicative of the intensity of the combat operations or actions

5 undertaken by the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. This refers to the

6 entire period from 1992 until 1995, and in particular, to the period

7 pertaining to the duties of Mr. Dragomir Milosevic, when he was performing

8 that duty. I wanted to show a --

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... I believe

10 you would also go on to say that your case is that the intensity of the

11 fighting precludes the existence of a campaign of shelling and sniping, as

12 you have said before, and you also argue that the number of victims is

13 indicative of this intensity and that the SRK was responding to attacks by

14 the ABiH.

15 So there you have it, Ms. Edgerton.

16 MS. EDGERTON: Well, with respect, Your Honour, my submission

17 would be that that argument may be valid if the evidence at issue is

18 reasonably proximate in time to the period of the indictment and this

19 isn't the case at all.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: But 1992 is also pleaded in the indictment.

21 MS. EDGERTON: 1992 is --

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have the adjudicated facts from the Galic

23 case. And at this stage, we are not determining the weight that the

24 Chamber will attach to the evidence. We're determining its admissibility

25 on the basis of its relevance, and I would rule that it is relevant.

Page 7624

1 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: But I should say at the same time,

3 Mr. Tapuskovic, that the sooner you move to 1994/1995, which are the

4 critical years, then the Chamber would be the better for that. We would

5 profit more from that.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I do want to do that, but I

7 received a number of documents from the Prosecution and that is why I have

8 to dwell on this, on the documents, the Prosecution will probably insist

9 on the documents or rely on the documents in their cross-examination, so I

10 have to cover that for several reasons, but I'm not obliged to explain.

11 One of the documents that I received from the Prosecution

12 yesterday, in view of what the witness has just said about the civilians

13 who were killed at that time, I would like to show that to the witness.

14 And the witness hasn't even seen the documents because I received it

15 late. Perhaps he wouldn't have even mentioned it, but it's a document

16 that I placed on the list a little bit earlier, because I just received it

17 a little bit earlier, and that is document-- I have the Prosecution

18 number, 00731702.

19 And I would happen kindly ask to have the document placed on the

20 ELMO. The first paragraph mentions something that this witness has also

21 experienced. All of these are things that can be of importance in order

22 to evaluate certain topics that are relevant for that entire period from

23 1992 until 1995.

24 Perhaps the witness can read the first paragraph. If you permit

25 that, Your Honours.

Page 7625


2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Witness, can you please look at the document, and what does it say

4 in this first paragraph. Can you please read that to the Judges and can

5 you please tell us if you lived through that report on a carried-out

6 investigation. Slowly, please.

7 A. "Drafted on the 28th of July, 1993 at 1130 hours, at the village

8 cemetery in the village of Milje municipality of Trnovo, at the location

9 where the grave of Borise Ivanovic, son of Alekse and mother Janje nee

10 Bozovic was found, who was born on the 12th of February, 1912 in the

11 village of Milje, municipality of Trnovo and killed on the 15th of June,

12 1992 by members of the Muslim Ustasha formations by his house in the said

13 village and a certain time after the killing was buried by the so-called

14 Muslim commission for clearing the terrain at the village cemetery in the

15 village of Milje."

16 Q. Can you please tell us who this is?

17 A. This is my father, who was killed on the 15th of June, 1992 in the

18 yard of his family house.

19 Q. Thank you. Now can you please tell us where you were for a

20 certain amount of time after you stopped being the chief of police in July

21 1992, as you've said?

22 A. On the 31st of July, 1992.

23 Q. Where were you for a short period of time?

24 A. For a short period of time I was in Kalinovik because the army of

25 Bosnia and Herzegovina had captured the entire area of the Trnovo

Page 7626

1 municipality on the 30th and the 31st of July, 1992.

2 Q. Thank you. And do you know anything about the Lukavac 93 action

3 and can you please briefly describe it and tell us when it took place?

4 A. The Lukavac 93 action, I know about. It was --

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

6 MS. EDGERTON: Excuse me, sir, I'm sorry.

7 Your Honour, with respect to the Lukavac -- is mention of the

8 Lukavac 1993 action, I'm actually guided by Your Honour's ruling last

9 month with respect to the 65 ter summaries in which you said that where

10 applicable the -- you said: "Considering that this further information

11 should include at least information on the occupation of the witness

12 during the relevant period, the rank of the witness, his unit, where

13 applicable, locations the witness will discuss and the specific events the

14 witness will discuss." I'm guided by this in rising and saying Lukavac

15 1993 was never disclosed as any part of the information that this witness

16 would testify about.

17 So I would object to this evidence. I have had no notice in that

18 record.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton, the Chamber does not agree that the

21 purpose of asking for a summary is to exclude evidence that is not in it.

22 That's not the purpose of it.

23 Secondly, it's only a summary, and where, as in this case, the

24 Chamber concludes that the evidence is relevant, the Chamber will allow

25 it, and it will allow this evidence.

Page 7627

1 If you find that you are embarrassed, you may exceptionally seek

2 some redress from the Chamber, but I stress "exceptionally." That redress

3 may take the form of the Chamber allowing you a little more time to do

4 some further research. I'm not encouraging it. I myself don't think it

5 is warranted in this case, and I would not allow it.

6 Proceed, Mr. Tapuskovic.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I will take into account my

9 learned friend's objection and move on to the issue at hand.

10 Q. Can you tell us -- well, you said you were a policeman. In the

11 following months until the war was over, did you at any point stop being a

12 policeman?

13 A. I remained a policeman until the end of the war. I worked in the

14 Kula police station. I was transferred there on the 2nd of November,

15 1992. It was the centre of public security station in Lukavica. I was a

16 crime inspector there.

17 Q. With which department?

18 A. The public security department within the police station.

19 Q. Since you worked with the matters of public security, were there

20 any other types of policemen there in the station?

21 A. In addition to the public security station at Kula, there was a

22 detention unit or a detention facility there.

23 Q. Just a second. We'll get there, but let us not hurry.

24 In the police, you worked on crime within the domain of public

25 security. Were there any other police forces?

Page 7628

1 A. In addition to the crime squad, we had uniformed police also from

2 the public security sector. I think there were some 60 to 70 of them in

3 total.

4 Q. In order for us to understand the whole situation and in order for

5 you to be able to explain better, I have to show you a map, which is

6 document 2872.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we zoom in on the southern

8 part, the area of Lukavica, as the witness said. Thank you.

9 Q. Witness, can you indicate where the police station was, the one

10 you mentioned? And put a circle there.

11 A. I need to get my bearings first.

12 I think it is here.

13 Q. Where was Kula?

14 A. In the same place, in the vicinity there.

15 Q. Can you mark the separation lines approximately at the time you

16 arrived there, the separation lines between the VRS and the 1st corps of

17 the ABiH?

18 A. Do I need to draw lines?

19 Q. Yes, please.

20 A. It is very difficult for me to navigate here, but it was something

21 like this.

22 Q. Thank you. That suffices.

23 If we considered this regarding the elevations there, what was

24 your position like there?

25 A. Kula and Lukavica were below the Mojmilo elevation, which

Page 7629

1 dominates the area. I don't know what the exact altitude is. It is a

2 ridge. There is also Mount Igman, where the ABiH forces were. It had a

3 commanding view over the entire area of Kula, Lukavica and Bijelo Polje.

4 Q. Can you mark the ridge, as you called it, at Mojmilo, as best you

5 can?

6 A. The Mojmilo ridge, I know very well is above the settlement of

7 Alipasino and onwards to Vraca, more or less like this.

8 Q. Please have a good look at the map. You see some things there?

9 A. It is very difficult for me to navigate this map, sir.

10 Q. Then mark it as you think it is.

11 A. I think this is so. This is the direction.

12 Q. But the ridge of the hill, the ridge of the Mojmilo elevation.

13 A. I can't get my bearings here.

14 Q. Very well. Thank you.

15 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Tapuskovic, the witness

16 obviously has a difficulty finding his bearings on this map, but this red

17 circle, he was talking about Lukavica, but he forgot to write Kula. I

18 would like to see Kula on the map.

19 Could you please also note some letters on all this for the

20 confrontation line, maybe put an L or something, and for the ridge also,

21 so we can find our way later on, because right now I'm also losing my

22 bearings.

23 Starting with Kula, please, Witness, can you tell us where Kula

24 is?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the encircled part. Close to

Page 7630

1 where our police station was place.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Mindua, perhaps

3 I can ask the witness to mark the circle with a K.

4 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Fine. Maybe place a K, like Kula.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. As for the blue line, please put an L there.

7 A. [Marks].

8 Q. I won't press any further, but please have a good look at the line

9 at the top. There is some inscription here. This is the part that you

10 referred to as Mojmilo. I don't want to force you to mark anything you

11 are unable to, but have another look, please.

12 A. Mojmilo dominates over the settlement of Nedzarici, which is at

13 the foot of Mojmilo hill and its elevation. That's where Nedzarici is.

14 Q. Please have a look at the elevations. Maybe you can find it

15 somewhere on the map, where the name is mentioned.

16 A. The lettering is very small. I cannot read.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we zoom in on the central

18 part of the map.

19 Please zoom in.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, if we zoom in, we'll lose the

21 current markings.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. You still cannot see anything?

24 A. No, I cannot.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Let us save this map first as

Page 7631

1 such.

2 I wish to tender it as a Defence exhibit.


4 THE REGISTRAR: As D283, Your Honours.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Let us zoom in now.

6 Q. Can you see now? Can you read the things on the map, an elevation

7 perhaps?

8 A. Can I encircle the elevation?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. [Marks].

11 Q. Is this Mojmilo and the ridge that you mentioned?

12 A. Yes, that is the ridge. The elevation is 680 metres above sea

13 level. I saw it finally. It overlooks the settlement of Lukavica, Kula,

14 parts of Dobrinja IV and Dobrinja I, in the hands of Serbian forces, and

15 in particular, overlooks the settlement of Nedzarici, which was an

16 encirclement. It was in the Serbian hands.

17 I can tell that you in the settlement of Nedzarici, many members

18 of my family resided. Nedzarici saw daily, fierce attacks, and many of my

19 family and relatives were killed in Nedzarici.

20 Since many of my relatives on my wife's side lived in Nedzarici.

21 Her brother was killed there, her mother was wounded, my aunt was killed

22 by a sniper in Nedzarici.

23 Q. Thank you. Mr. Ivanovic --

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, is it necessary for

25 me to tender this, since many witnesses have already explained to us and

Page 7632

1 marked Mojmilo on other occasions? Therefore, I do not believe it is

2 necessary to tender this document as such. Rather, I will continue with

3 my questions to Mr. Ivanovic.

4 Q. You said you worked in the general crime section but that there

5 were also some 80 other policemen, more or less, who worked in the public

6 security sector. Can you tell the Judges whether on occasion those

7 policemen and you as a civilian working for the police participated in the

8 combat activities of the SRK?

9 A. There were situations when the front line was under threat, the

10 front line of the army of Republika Srpska, and that's when orders would

11 arrive that both us and the uniformed police would be engaged at certain

12 lines in order to help members of the army of Republika Srpska.

13 Q. Thank you. The police forces in that form with that number and

14 you who were members of the public security service, what sort of weapons

15 did you have at your disposal?

16 A. The police station where I was deployed just had infantry

17 weapons. It didn't use any other type of weapon.

18 Q. And since you were there since 1992, at the time when you got to

19 Kula, were there any other kinds of weapons that were used by the

20 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, other than the weapons that you had at your

21 disposal?

22 A. I know that the army of Republika Srpska in that area had heavy

23 weapons as well, artillery weapons. Cannon, mortars. I know they had

24 them.

25 Q. Can you tell us briefly so then we can deal with the time relevant

Page 7633

1 to the indictment, but since you were there in 1992 and 1993 can you tell

2 us if you recall in 1993 what the combat was like in the area where you

3 were at the time?

4 A. In late 1992 and 1993, there were frequent battles along the line

5 of separation. There was shelling by the B and H army. I recall a date,

6 I think it was either the 14th or the 15th of March, 1993, and this was in

7 the vicinity of the public security station. That was where the Kula

8 prison was, the KP Kula prison, where there were detainees of the army of

9 Republika Srpska too who had been sent there on orders of the army command

10 because they had committed various misdemeanours or violations. I don't

11 know what kind of violations they were.

12 I'm not sure whether on the 14th or the 15th of March, the area

13 where we were was shelled, where our public security station was, and the

14 prison also, I think it was a mortar shell, and it killed nine detainees

15 of the army of Republika Srpska and wounded two guards because they

16 happened to be in the compound when the detainees were taking their daily

17 walk.

18 Besides the prisoners who were killed, I think another 13 were

19 wounded, and these were detainees of the army of Republika Srpska, which,

20 as I said, were detained because they had committed certain army --

21 violations of certain army regulations.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

23 Just a minute.

24 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, my submission with respect to this

25 evidence at this point would be that in order for it to be considered

Page 7634

1 relevant, my friend would have to point to actually which of the

2 adjudicated facts it might go to. My quick review of the adjudicated

3 facts doesn't reveal anything that this evidence relates to.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: To what does this evidence relate?

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, today when I was

6 explaining upon your instructions what it was important about what I was

7 asking the witness here, I didn't mention any adjudicated facts. I

8 mentioned them yesterday and one more time. Here, I was just speaking in

9 general in relation to the entire period and it had nothing to do with the

10 adjudicated facts.

11 As Defence attorney, I intend to expand certain things contained

12 in the adjudicated facts and I tend to -- intend to dispute some and

13 expand others with new evidence. I did not mention adjudicated facts

14 today. I mentioned one of them yesterday about which I believe there

15 should be no dispute, so I just intend to expand on that.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just tell us what it relates to, how it is

17 relevant. Never mind adjudicated facts.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, precisely what the

19 witness was talking about, what was happening in Nedzarici, and I even

20 stopped him from mentioning all of them, but he mentioned as series of his

21 relatives who fell victim in Nedzarici and again he spoke about detainees

22 who were in the prison and who were killed. These were nine people and

23 many were wounded as well. What I'm trying to do now is present the idea

24 that the victims in the territory controlled by the SRK an indicator of

25 the combat actions undertaken by the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and all of

Page 7635

1 that in the context that the objective of the army of Republika Srpska was

2 not to cause terror in that part of Sarajevo which was under the control

3 of the Bosnia and Herzegovina army but that it was a response to

4 activities of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and not a campaign of

5 attack on civilians.

6 What you heard from the witness indicates what the situation was

7 like in terms of victims at positions held by the SRK and in Nedzarici,

8 which constitutes the heart of the town as well as Lukavica, which is also

9 a part of the town.

10 This is what we're saying, that the events, the victims, on the

11 side and territory that was under the command of the SRK is evidence of

12 the intensity of combat actions --

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, this is nothing -- so the intensity

14 argument relates back to 1992/1993?

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the indictment

16 against Dragomir Milosevic was amended a month before the trial began. It

17 was expanded to a time-period during which he was not a commander and that

18 he inherited the campaign from his predecessor, the commander of the

19 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, thus I'm forced to deal with that time-period as

20 well, and to indicate that in that time-period as well some things did not

21 proceed in the way reported in the adjudicated facts, especially not

22 during the time when he was commander and particularly in the time-period

23 from August to May, the period from August 1994 to May 1995, and then the

24 fighting intensified --

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I'm not following you now, because you said

Page 7636

1 previously that you were not relying on the adjudicated facts to establish

2 the relevance of this evidence, so I presume you're establishing it on

3 some other means.

4 Because, Ms. Edgerton, is it your submission that evidence of the

5 1992/1993 period is only relevant if it is founded on an adjudicated fact?

6 [Prosecution counsel confer]

7 MS. EDGERTON: I would certainly concede that a certain amount of

8 this evidence is relevant by way of context. Your Honours will recall

9 that we produced the report and -- of Dr. Donia, who testified here with a

10 contextual paper on the evidence. However, most of the 1992/1993

11 evidence, Your Honours, is linked with the adjudicated facts, we'd submit.

12 So there is -- there's a certain amount that goes to context, Your

13 Honours, the broader context. And that, I think, has to be judged on a

14 case-by-case basis since we're rising only on a case-by-case basis, but

15 generally the relevance of the pre-indictment period is directly linked to

16 the adjudicated facts.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: You don't found the relevance of this particular

18 evidence, Mr. Tapuskovic, on adjudicated facts. I understand you to be

19 establishing it on another basis, and this seems to have something to do

20 with the -- the general state of terror.

21 Explain that to me now. How -- how is what happened in 1992/1993

22 relevant to this question of terror in the indictment which relates to

23 1994/1995?

24 Having explained that, we'll take the break.

25 No. I said having, after he has explained that. It's probably a

Page 7637

1 wrong use of the past participle.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as the Defence

3 counsel for Dragomir Milosevic, I believe that at no time-period was it

4 the intention to terrorise the civilians and the civilian population and

5 at no time was this the exclusive goal of everything that was happening

6 throughout those years. I would very easily --

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just concentrate on 1992/1993. Just concentrate

8 on that and explain how what happened in 1992/1993 assists the argument

9 you are putting forward in relation to terror in the indictment, which

10 relates to the period 1994/1995.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I simply believe that through a

12 witness of this type we can show what the combat activities were like in

13 that period, 1992/1993 and I'm just taking the most flagrant examples of

14 that. Because at the time it's quite certain that all the victims on

15 either side were caused by the intensity of the combat actions. There was

16 no other direct intention to harm civilians. This is what I always want

17 to be heard from a witness who went through all of that, just to confirm

18 that the combat actions between the two sides were the basis of the

19 suffering of the civilian population, and I would also like to emphasise

20 the time-period referring to Dragomir Milosevic, which in that time was in

21 a flagrant way quite different and where any intention or any indication

22 of an intention was ruled out, in terms of terrorising the civilians and

23 sniping at the town for any reason.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

25 We'll give a ruling when we return from the break.

Page 7638

1 --- Recess taken at 12.24 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, you may ask the question, and--

4 but let us move quickly to the period 1994/1995.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, by your leave I

6 wanted to say something which has nothing to do with this witness. It has

7 to do with the next witness, T-11, who can come here tomorrow and we have

8 to conclude with him tomorrow due to his obligations. Four hours were

9 foreseen for his testimony. I will do my utmost to shorten my examination

10 since it's important -- although it is an important witness and there is a

11 chance that we might not have him back any time soon.

12 I also heard that the Prosecutor might have a significant number

13 of questions for the cross-examination. Therefore, I believe with your

14 permission, we should start tomorrow with witness T-11 first to try and

15 deal with his testimony and to conclude with it in its entirety.

16 The second application I have to make concerns Witness T-16.

17 There's a request to take his testimony via videolink. As planned, it

18 could take place on the 23rd. However, since the procedure of

19 establishing the videolink is a lengthy one, could we please have your

20 ruling as soon as possible. We submitted that request on the 29th of

21 June. I don't know whether you received any response from the Prosecutor,

22 but let us try and do everything in our power to be able to take that

23 witness's testimony as planned.

24 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: For the latter we haven't yet received a response

Page 7639

1 from the Prosecutor.

2 Perhaps they will give it now.

3 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. President. We received the application.

4 Although the witness entirely deals with 1992, the withdrawal of the JNA

5 forces, we don't think it is relevant and I think relevancy is one of the

6 aspects of having a videolink provided, but in -- as it -- in terms of the

7 actual application, because there was a medical certificate attached,

8 that's all fine. We don't have a problem, except for relevancy. That

9 would be our response.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you for that. The Chamber will dispose of

11 that as quickly as possible. Perhaps by tomorrow.

12 As for the first matter, it very much depends on the length of

13 time that the parties spend questioning the witness, whether he will be

14 able to -- to leave tomorrow. So that really is up to you,

15 Mr. Tapuskovic, and the -- the Prosecutor.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer].


19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is very likely

20 that we will not conclude this witness's testimony today, and in that

21 case, his testimony or the rest of it would have to be transferred to

22 Friday, together with the witness foreseen for Friday.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Oh, I see. You didn't make that clear. So what

24 you're asking is for Witness T-11 to be interposed in the event that this

25 witness's evidence is not concluded today. You're asking for him to be

Page 7640

1 interposed. We will grant that request.

2 Well, let us proceed now.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 Q. Witness, we discussed the event at Kula and the killing of those

5 soldiers that were in detention. Can you explain to the Judges the

6 following: You are a police inspector. Is that so?

7 A. Yes.

8 MS. EDGERTON: I'm sorry. The witness never said there were

9 soldiers that were killed in detention. He spoke only of detainees.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. So rephrase the question, Mr. Tapuskovic.

11 Because that is not a matter on which you can lead.

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Don't argue, just go ahead. You don't have a

14 point. Just rephrase the question. It was leading.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I can only refer back to the

16 transcript because I believe the witness did say that.

17 Q. Can you tell us again who was it that was killed in that incident?

18 A. I said that those were detainees from the VRS. On the orders of

19 the military command they were detained because of certain infractions or

20 violations they had made.

21 Q. Thank you. That's how I understood your previous answer.

22 As a police inspector, were you able to conduct any

23 investigation? Were you asked to assist?

24 A. No, since it was under the competence of the army of Republika

25 Srpska.

Page 7641

1 Q. Do you know whether the army of Republika Srpska was able to do

2 anything in order to investigate, for example, where the shell came from

3 and how the incident actually happened?

4 A. I heard that the shell came from the direction of Igman, although

5 I cannot confirm that.

6 Q. Was that the end result of the investigation?

7 A. I don't know. It was in the hands of the military command. As

8 the civilian police force, we had nothing to do there.

9 Q. Thank you. It is necessary for us to move on.

10 Let us go to 1994. Why -- or how do you remember the beginning of

11 1994?

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Before do you that, just let me point out that of

13 the one hour allotted to you, you have just two minutes remaining and you

14 have -- you are now just reaching the portion of this witness's evidence

15 that relates directly, directly to the indictment. You have spent an hour

16 on 1992/1993, which is perhaps only marginally relevant, and the area, the

17 aspects of the witness's evidence that relates directly to the indictment,

18 you have left yourself no time to deal with that.

19 Why are you so obsessed with 1992/1993?

20 We'll grant you another -- we'll grant you -- how much more time

21 would you need, considering that the time is virtually finished?

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I will try to conclude in 20

23 minutes, Your Honours. It is fully justified for you to ask me to explain

24 the relevance of each witness's testimony, and then I focus on that, and

25 that disturbs my schedule. Of course, I have to respond to each and every

Page 7642

1 of your questions, but a lot of time was spent on --

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's true, yes. Yes, that's true. Proceed.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Witness, let us quickly go through 1994. What happened then, do

5 you remember? First of all, do you remember when Mr. Dragomir Milosevic

6 was appointed commander of the SRK?

7 A. I heard that Mr. Dragomir Milosevic came in the summer of that

8 year, whether in late July or August 1994

9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. What happened in 1994 that had to do with heavy weapons?

12 A. I know that in the spring of 1994 in the area that we discussed

13 from Lukavica and the surrounding places, the heavy weapons of the VRS

14 were pulled out from.

15 Q. You said that Dragomir Milosevic took command of the SRK at that

16 time you mentioned. Can you tell me what the period when he was in

17 command looked like, in particular, since August and until the end of

18 1994?

19 A. One can say that the situation was quite calm, there were no

20 activities as they were in 1992 and 1993. There were sporadic

21 provocations but no serious combat activities between the belligerent

22 parties.

23 Q. That calm period was interrupted by what? What happened in

24 October that you can remember?

25 A. I know very well that in the Trnovo theatre, that is in the

Page 7643

1 demilitarised zone where the peace keeping forces were between the warring

2 parties, the Serb army and the army of B and H, in October, there was a

3 sabotage attack. The command of the Trnovo battalion was attacked. I

4 think 21 soldiers were killed out of which three were nurses. They were

5 members of the battalion. Although it was a demilitarised zone, they

6 attacked. As far as I recall, only one girl survived. She was a radio

7 person, and another soldier from the command of the Trnovo battalion.

8 Q. Were you asked to assist in any regard as a policeman?

9 A. As policemen, we were asked to assist, we were ordered to do so.

10 As a crime inspector, I went there as a soldier to protect the area where

11 the attack had been carried out on the VRS.

12 Q. Can you briefly tell the Judges in October, November, and

13 December, did you do something else instead of your police duties?

14 A. In November and December of 1994, we were made part of the VRS,

15 tasked with the defence of the lines there on the slopes of Bijelasnica

16 and Treskavica, facing Trnovo.

17 Q. Did the situation change during the combat operations then?

18 A. In December, on the 13th of December, to be exact, there was a

19 fierce attack on the lines of the VRS by the army of BiH, whereupon a

20 large number of casualties occurred. The VRS forces were pushed back in

21 depth towards Trnovo.

22 Q. Can you tell me when the situation calmed -- calmed down during

23 that fall and winter?

24 A. The new combat positions, or the new line of the VRS, had been

25 pushed back by eight or nine kilometres. After that fierce attack and the

Page 7644

1 losses we suffered, the lines were re-established on the part of the VRS

2 and there was no combat activity of any significance until late spring

3 1995.

4 Q. Let us move on to that period. What happened in the spring of

5 1995?

6 A. In June, July and August and until the end of the war, there were

7 constant attacks by the ABiH on the defence positions of the VRS. Often

8 these attacks were followed by heavy artillery shelling.

9 Q. Thank you. Do you remember end May in particular for any reason?

10 A. There was another strong attack and certain positions of the VRS

11 were moved back. There was a counterattack, and we eventually managed to

12 regain some positions. However, the VRS sustained a number of losses.

13 Q. Thank you. I want to show you DD00-1757 next.

14 Once it is before you, please look at the heading, the date, the

15 nature of the document, and read the first paragraph out loud for the

16 Chamber. After that, perhaps you can tell us whether you recognise any

17 similarity in the document and the things you have mentioned in the past

18 few minutes.

19 A. "Sarajevo, the 1st of June -- Sarajevo, the 1st of June, 1995, the

20 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the army of the BiH republic, command

21 of the 1st Corps, PKM, Bjela Vijeska, strictly confidential 011-191,

22 Bileska 31st of May, 1995, time 2200 hours. Interim combat report." I

23 think that's what the abbreviation is.

24 "On the 30th of May, 1995, at 0500 hours joint units of the 1st

25 corps with Special Units of MUP, Bosna and Lasta, in quotation marks,

Page 7645

1 began attack combat actions along the axis of Voluja Jama, Djokin Toranj,

2 Ilijas, Kozija Luka, Lopoc, Turov Stan, Pester, Kozljen, Cardak, and the

3 village of Dujmovici."

4 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell the Judges if you had anything to

5 do with this -- if this has anything to do with what you told us earlier?

6 A. Yes, it does have something to do with what I said before, because

7 when the attack came, the next day we were engaged as police officers.

8 The order was to go and assist members of the army of Republika Srpska.

9 Q. Thank you. Can you look at the paragraph that is two paragraphs

10 lower, which begins "During the fighting that lasted the whole day." Can

11 you please read that paragraph?

12 A. "During the fighting that lasted for the whole day, at all four

13 routes of attack" --

14 Q. Please, let's not waste time. I asked you to skip those two

15 paragraphs and to read at the lower passage which begins "during the

16 fighting that lasted all day." You can read that.

17 A. "Throughout the fighting that lasted all day, the Chetniks

18 sustained serious losses in personnel and materiel and equipment and large

19 number of firing points were destroyed, bunkers, two trucks, passenger

20 cars. The exact number of Chetniks that were taken out of combat was

21 difficult to evaluate, while two dead Chetniks remained at liberated

22 Koslin."

23 Q. Thank you. Can you look at the end of the document. This is just

24 in front of the numbers that were being mentioned. During yesterday --

25 A. I'm sorry, I lost my text.

Page 7646

1 "In the course of yesterday and part of today, a considerable

2 amount -- quantity of ammunition was spent as well as materiel and

3 equipment which needs to be replenished."

4 Q. Thank you. Can you please look at who signed the document? This

5 is on the following page.

6 A. Commander General Vahid Karavelic.

7 Q. All of this that you read and what you have told us, does that

8 correspond to what was happening during those two days when you were with

9 the police unit in the action of the army, when you joined the army

10 action?

11 A. All of this is correct. It's just that a large -- there was a

12 large number of casualties on the Republika Srpska side.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we admit this document,

15 please as a Defence exhibit.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.

17 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, there's absolutely nothing that's been

18 elicited so far that would link this document to anything that went on in

19 Trnovo municipality other than the witness saying it corresponds. We

20 don't know where a single one of these locations, and there are a number

21 of locations that may or may not be relevant, where on the map they're

22 found, if they're in Ilijas or someplace far and away outside of

23 Sarajevo. So without some basic foundation, I'd suggest it's irrelevant.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Of course, I would have to seek

Page 7647

1 the explanation from the witness. He's going to tell you where the lines

2 were, because Ilijas is mentioned here.

3 Q. However, Witness, can you please tell Their Honours if these

4 locations have anything to do with Trnovo or with the area of

5 responsibility of the SRK in general, during this conflict in May?

6 A. All of these locations are in the Trnovo municipality. They don't

7 have anything to do with Ilijas, and they were in the area of

8 responsibility of the SRK.

9 Q. And you can indicate each one on the map, but I'm not going to ask

10 you to do that. Is that correct?

11 A. Well, I find my way around a map with great difficulty. But I do

12 know all of the places where all these things were taking place.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Again, I would like to tender

14 this document.

15 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, may I ask a question of

16 clarification.

17 You yourself took part in these combat activities, since you said

18 that the authorities had ordered to you join the troops on the front

19 lines. Could you please tell me where specifically you were sent and if

20 you fought with the soldiers so that we can establish that you were an

21 eye-witness to these events? Where did you fight?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We fought in the area of Dujmovici.

23 We were there to assist the army of Republika Srpska, because there were

24 considerable losses and the lines were broken in certain locations.

25 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] The location you mention is

Page 7648

1 therefore part of the positions that we've just mentioned in the document

2 that we've just read. Am I right?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes.

4 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ...

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will be admitted as

8 D284.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Witness, this was in May. Can you now please tell us what

11 happened in the following months and if the conflict -- well, I don't want

12 it qualify it. Anyway, what happened later?

13 A. Later, throughout the whole of July and August, and especially in

14 October, from the 10th -- from the 2nd to the 10th of October, there were

15 intense attacks along the lines of the defence of the army of Republika

16 Srpska. I was a participant in the month of October. Near the village of

17 Turovi where our lines were the police held those lines. It was awful,

18 with what force and what artillery they battered our positions. I could

19 even say that the earth was aflame from the artillery attacks.

20 During the first two days, the artillery of the army of Republika

21 Srpska to a -- acted with a smaller force but then in the ensuing days the

22 artillery of the army of the Republika Srpska began to fire and the lines

23 remained unchanged until the end of the fighting. I think that the

24 fighting ended on the 10th of October, 1995, in those areas, in the area

25 of Trnovo.

Page 7649

1 In that period, Trnovo itself was shelled which had a civilian

2 population and from what I recall, four civilians were killed, three women

3 and one man. There were a large number of wounded civilians. The

4 buildings were set on fire from the projectiles, houses and so on.

5 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell me this finally. Let me ask you,

6 when you were in Kula at the police outpost and you said that there were

7 detained soldiers of the army of Republika Srpska in Kula, can you please

8 tell us if there were any other detainees, especially in this period of

9 1994 and 1995, that is related to the period when Mr. Dragomir Milosevic

10 was at this position?

11 A. During that period, there were arrested or detained members of the

12 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina held in the Kula prison. It wasn't such a

13 large number of them but there were some and I know that most of them were

14 very quickly exchanged in 1995 and 1994.

15 Q. Were they exposed to any kind of mistreatment or abuse?

16 A. I really couldn't say. The prison was a separate institution and

17 from what I know, from the prison guards there is was no mistreatment.

18 The kitchen worked to feed both the civilian and the military staff, the

19 prison staff, and the first shift to have lunch would be the civilian and

20 the prison staff, and then there would be a second shift. There would be

21 the prisoners of the army of Republika Srpska and then in the following

22 shift the same restaurant was used by the detained members of the army of

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

24 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

Page 7650

1 questions for this witness.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.

3 Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

4 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Ivanovic. My name is Carolyn Edgerton, like

5 you've heard, and I'm going to ask you some questions based on what you've

6 testified to today, but if you don't understand anything or if I'm not

7 clear, please say. Is that all right?

8 A. All right. Thank you.

9 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, normally in the ICTY before a witness

10 testifies, the lawyer for that -- working with that witness has to provide

11 some information about the witness's testimony to the other side. Did you

12 know that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, did you know that the information I received about you

15 actually doesn't say you were chief of the SUP in Trnovo before the war?

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we first provided

18 information that we believed was sufficient a few days ago or when we were

19 asked by the Prosecution. We immediately furnished the requested

20 information, so a few days ago we did provide that information. Really,

21 it was very difficult at the preparation stage to give more information

22 than we did. The first time that I spoke with the witness in detail was

23 over the past few days because I couldn't speak with him in more detail

24 before. There wasn't time. So I wasn't able to take all the information

25 about him. I presented that to you today, and when I was asked the day

Page 7651

1 before yesterday, or whenever that was, to provide this information, I

2 quickly did so.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton, I'm not fond of this type of

6 questioning. I don't see the need for it. I mean, how is he to know

7 whether the information provided by Mr. Tapuskovic to you included

8 information about his -- his status?

9 MS. EDGERTON: With respect, Your Honours, I think my friend has

10 completely misunderstood the objective of my question. It in no way

11 cast -- or was meant to cast any aspersions on Mr. Tapuskovic and he did

12 provide information when information was requested. I was asking this of

13 the witness on a matter that might go to the witness's credibility.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: But how is he to know, I mean, unless you're

15 going to put it to him that that is information which he never gave

16 Mr. Tapuskovic. But how is he to know whether the information that

17 Mr. Tapuskovic gave you included information about his particular status?

18 MS. EDGERTON: Fine, Your Honour. I'll rephrase the question.

19 I'll put the question in a different way, if I may.

20 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, you said that the police in Trnovo in the period

21 leading up to the war worked together; in fact, until after the 21st and

22 22nd of April 1992. Isn't that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. But, in fact, your appointment as chief of the police for the

25 Serbian municipality of Trnovo pre-dated these events by more than three

Page 7652

1 weeks, didn't it, or by three weeks?

2 A. No. No, that is not correct. On the 21st of April, when the

3 police -- Serb police split off from the police station at the request of

4 the Serb policemen and with the approval of the SDS, I assumed the duties

5 of the chief of the Serb police.

6 Q. But were you not formally appointed to the position of chief of

7 the Serb police of Trnovo by the minister of the interior, Mico Stanisic,

8 on the 1st of April, 1992.

9 A. If we're talking about the 1st of April, 1992, I was not appointed

10 by Minister Mico Stanisic because we were still a joint police station in

11 Trnovo. And until this event, the attack of the Green Berets on the

12 police, it was a joint police station, and Ekrem Gudinjak was the chief.

13 He was an ethnic Muslim.

14 Q. Could I ask we see document 03364 on the screen, please.

15 Do you see the document dated 1st of April, 1992 that appears on

16 the left-hand side of the -- pardon me, the right-hand side of the screen

17 in front of you, sir?

18 A. I do.

19 Q. Now am I correct if I say that this document is a decision by Mico

20 Stanisic, Minister of the Interior, assigning you to the tasks and duties

21 of the chief of the Trnovo SJB?

22 A. The document is correct. But I never received this document. I

23 state this with a full authority.

24 Q. And you had -- even though you were an employee and became an

25 employ, I should say, of the Serb ministry of the interior, you had no

Page 7653

1 knowledge of Minister Stanisic's appointment of you?

2 A. I really did not know that Minister Mico Stanisic appointed me as

3 chief. And I never received this decision.

4 Q. Sir, isn't it also correct that by -- in your capacity as chief of

5 the police for the Serbian municipality of Trnovo, you were a member of

6 the Crisis Staff for that municipality?

7 A. According to this function, yes, I was a member of the Crisis

8 Staff as of the 21st of April.

9 Q. And the purpose of the Crisis Staff, Mr. Ivanovic, was to organise

10 the Serbs in Trnovo, wasn't it, to deal with both civilian and military

11 issues.

12 A. The goal of the Crisis Staff was to protect the Serbian population

13 in that area. In the municipality of Trnovo, we were a minority. There

14 was 29 per cent of the Serbian population in the municipality of Trnovo.

15 The idea was to protect our families and our hearts.

16 Q. So I take it from your answer, sir, you're not disagreeing with me

17 when I put it to you the purpose of the Crisis Staff was to organise the

18 Serbs, dealing with both civilian and military issues. Is that correct?

19 A. As the police, we dealt with mostly civilian matters.

20 Q. My question was to the purpose of the Crisis Staff to organise the

21 Serbs dealing with both civilian and military issues. Now you have sat on

22 the Crisis Staff, so surely you would be in a position to speak to its

23 basic objectives, wouldn't you?

24 A. The main purpose of Crisis Staff was to protect the population

25 from possible conflicts, attacks. That was the main issue.

Page 7654

1 Q. Now your job, the job of the Crisis Staff, was in fact to put into

2 effect the instructions for the organisation and operations of Serbian

3 people in emergency conditions issued by the SDS party on 19 December,

4 1991, wasn't it?

5 A. I was not in any sort of leadership position in the SDS, so I

6 don't know anything about that order or the instructions.

7 MS. EDGERTON: If I could have document 3362 brought up, please.

8 Q. Can you see the document. It is handwritten that appears on the

9 right-hand side of the screen in front of you, sir?

10 A. I see it.

11 Q. Now would you agree that document reads that it's minutes of the

12 extraordinary session of the Trnovo SDS on 25 December 1991 and under item

13 1, instructions for organising the Serbian people in crisis situations

14 Radivoje Draskovic read out those instructions. You said earlier, sir,

15 you were a member of the Crisis Staff. Are you saying that you were

16 unaware of those instructions, given that they were read out at a meeting

17 of the Trnovo SDS by Radivoje Draskovic?

18 A. I do declare that I did not attend this meeting and that until the

19 21st of April, 1992, I was not part of the SDS Crisis Staff or had any

20 duties in the Serbian Democratic Party of the Trnovo municipality.

21 Q. Wasn't Mr. Draskovic president of the Crisis Staff, sir?

22 A. Mr. Draskovic was the president of Serbian Democratic Party of the

23 municipality of Trnovo. I know that.

24 Q. Who then was the president of the Crisis Staff, sir? Who headed

25 the Crisis Staff?

Page 7655

1 A. I think that as the party president it was Mr. Draskovic.

2 Q. And, Mr. Draskovic, who you served on the Crisis Staff with, never

3 discussed with you these instructions for the organisation of the Serbian

4 people?

5 A. Never, never. For as long as I was -- well, until the 21st of

6 April when the police split, for as long as I was a policeman in the joint

7 police force until the 21st of April 1992 it was never mentioned.

8 Q. And you're asserting these instructions were never mentioned, even

9 though, sir, you were also a member of the Territorial Defence command for

10 Trnovo municipality, weren't you?

11 A. I was not in the TO command. The Territorial Defence comprised

12 soldiers in the reserve and the TO organisation was under the competence

13 of the army of Republika Srpska.


15 MS. EDGERTON: There's a technical problem in the transcript.

16 It's stopped running.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: It has stopped running. Is that what you were

18 going to say, Mr. Tapuskovic?

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I just wanted to remark on

20 something. I have an objection.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: May I make an inquiry from the technical staff as

22 to what has happened to the transcript.

23 [Technical difficulty]

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: We do have another, what, six and a half, seven

25 minutes before the close of the day's proceedings. Is it back? Has it

Page 7656

1 returned? No.

2 MS. EDGERTON: These things happen, Your Honour. I suppose we can

3 be grateful that it didn't happen much earlier in the day.

4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: I understand that it will take another three

6 minutes to correct this fault.

7 In that event, Mr. Tapuskovic, you will have to hold your

8 objection until Friday, Friday morning at 8.00. And -- but this witness

9 will not be here tomorrow.

10 Can the witness hear me?

11 MS. EDGERTON: I don't think so.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, you understand that Mr. Tapuskovic, the

13 counsel for the accused, asked that another witness be heard tomorrow and

14 the Chamber granted that request. You will therefore return to court on

15 Friday morning at 8.00.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: And then tomorrow we sit at 2.15 p.m.

18 We are adjourned.

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.39 p.m.,

20 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 5th day of July, 2007,

21 at 2.15 p.m.