070713ED

Page 8197

1 MR. WAESPI: Yes. We have no objections to -- to your proposal,

2 but we understand the suggestion of the Defence, and we would have no

3 objection if you would accede to the Defence proposal to have 10 days more

4 time to prepare the closing briefs.

5 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you very much.

6 Now we're going to continue with the cross-examination.

7 Mr. Waespi, you have the floor.

8 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. If document 03285 could be

9 prepared.

10 WITNESS: LJUBAN MRKOVIC [Resumed]

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 Cross-examination by Mr. Waespi: [Continued]

13 Q. Good morning, Witness.

14 A. Good morning.

15 Q. I don't think it will take that long this morning. Let me ask

16 you, can you confirm that even in mid-1994, and despite the embargo, the

17 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps still received ammunition and, indeed, weaponry

18 from the FRY, from the former Yugoslavia or Federal Republic of

19 Yugoslavia? Can you confirm that?

20 A. I can't confirm that, because at the time the embargo and the

21 controls on the Drina border were really strict. I crossed the borders

22 very many times, and I could see how strict the controls were. What is

23 the VP 7663, the assistant commander signed. I don't know which military

24 post this is. I can't confirm this because I know that in 1994 and in

25 1995 we had very little weaponry. We were mostly supplied from the

Page 8198

1 Croatian and the Muslim sides who were selling things to one. I don't

2 know whether there were any secret channels through the forests, meadows,

3 valleys. It is possible, but I'm sure that the prices were very high.

4 There was very little available money, and we could not obtain weapons

5 through any regular routes.

6 Q. Yes. Let's have a look at this document. Apparently, the

7 assistant commander for logistics, Milan Dzurdzic of one of the brigades

8 of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps writes to the SRK, to the command, and it

9 has a reference to a strictly confidential telegram of 26th of June,

10 1994. And it says the following: "We hereby inform you that we received

11 the following weapons." First point: "From the army of Yugoslavia

12 (according to the approval of the VRS Main Staff) we received the

13 following weapons," and then three different guns. And then it goes on to

14 talking about regular distribution of the SRK.

15 That indeed says that they received -- this unit of the SRK

16 received weaponry from the former Yugoslavia. That's what the document

17 says. Do you agree?

18 A. This document is rather ambiguously drafted. The barracks of the

19 Yugoslavian Han Pijesak and there were some troops that weapons that had

20 not withdrawn. This was the property of the army Yugoslavia and I can't

21 confirm based on this document that this arrived from the army of

22 Yugoslavia. This document was issued by the military post 7673, which I

23 believe was the Vogosca brigade, or maybe even the Rajlovac Brigade. I'm

24 not sure. I'm not sure about the number of the military post. But the

25 property that is referred to here and it was the property of the army of

Page 8199

1 Yugoslavia, just like the engines that were sent to Rajlovac for overhaul

2 and then sent back to the army of Yugoslavia. When there was an embargo

3 on we couldn't do even that; whether this came from some secret channels

4 or some depots, I really can't tell you that. I can only confirm that

5 this is probably an original document which follows the form of our

6 writing, the codes, the type of the dispatches that were sent.

7 And as for the 85-millimetre guns, 40-millimetre guns, I doubt

8 very much that this arrived from the army of Yugoslavia. We had a lot of

9 those guns in the depots in 1994 when the embargo was on and when the

10 United Nations were controlling those borders. It would have been very

11 difficult to transport such things across the Drina or without any

12 controls or checks. It would have been close to impossible, I'd say.

13 I cannot guarantee anything. And the weapons that are indicated

14 here, in my view, it was really not necessary for -- for these weapons to

15 be transported to those areas that are indicated in this document.

16 Q. And the reason for that, that you're saying it was not necessary

17 to have them transported, because you already have these kind of weapons.

18 Is that what you're saying?

19 A. If you say 85-millimetre gun, one piece, without a single shell

20 for that gun, what would that use -- that do without a shell or a rocket

21 launcher without a rocket? And also, you have to have people who are

22 trained to use those pieces.

23 I really don't see a reason for this to be sent to Rajlovac. We

24 did not have an 85-millimetre gun in Rajlovac in the Vogosca Brigade.

25 There may have been two during the war. And as for the shells, if the

Page 8200

1 shells were indicated here in this document, then I would find this

2 document much more credible than the way it is now.

3 During the war in Sarajevo, a signal pistol. I did not -- I did

4 not see a single pistol during the war in Sarajevo and here they're asking

5 for nine pieces. I did not see a single one.

6 Passenger vehicles, we had plenty of those. Now why would the

7 army of Yugoslavia transport passenger vehicles to Rajlovac or Vogosca

8 from some depots. I really don't understand why would that be the case;

9 maybe this was transported from some depots.

10 Q. Thank you, Witness. First of all, you need to slow down a little

11 bit. I know you have a lot to tell to us, but please take it slowly. We

12 have -- we have time. I'm sure you'll get your flight back to -- to the

13 region.

14 But the document --

15 A. Yesterday I didn't get around doing it. I have plenty of time.

16 So if I had not -- if I did not leave yesterday, I can -- I can use all

17 the time you want.

18 Q. Very well. But the document is -- is fairly unambiguous. It says

19 that, "We received the following weapons from the army of Yugoslavia," and

20 it doesn't talk about men. It doesn't talk about ammunition. And I

21 suggest to you that there was enough ammunition, and there was enough men

22 to use these weaponry in the SRK. So the only thing they needed was the

23 actual weapons. That's what the document says. Do you agree with me?

24 A. I can't agree with you at all when you're talking about the staff

25 in the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. The Sarajevo-Romanija Corps to me as a

Page 8201

1 soldier, at the beginning it numbered some 10.000 men or so, and the

2 highest number it reached, it peaked at 17.500 people. The entire

3 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, the area of responsibility of this corps was --

4 you see how big it was in this map.

5 The other side, the BiH army, look at all of their reports, the

6 intelligence that we had. It had anything between 70 and 80.000 armed

7 men. Okay, let's put some of that down to propaganda, to boasting, to

8 bragging, to boosting the morale of the people and let's say there were

9 50.000 of them.

10 According to the military rules if you want to attack, the ratios

11 has to be 1 to 3. In order for us to attack Sarajevo, we would have had

12 to have anything around 150.000 people taking into account the number of

13 armed men in Sarajevo. This is the military doctrine, and that's why

14 there was no moving positions in Sarajevo, very little, if any at all. If

15 we had had enough men, we would have done differently, but here you see

16 the document says that we did not have enough men. If you believe me, I'm

17 sure you -- you can find corroboration in a lot of documents, and you will

18 find that the documents are accurate in that respect.

19 Q. Yes, but the document does not talk about men. The document only

20 talks about weaponry coming from the former Yugoslavia. That's correct,

21 isn't it?

22 A. You said it yourself that the document is ambiguous. The document

23 is what it is. I'm looking at it with my own two eyes. But I find it

24 very strange that this was asked from the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, that

25 this was transported from the army of Yugoslavia. Maybe these things were

Page 8202

1 taken from a depot that was under the control of the VRS. I would find

2 this much more plausible.

3 Q. Thank you very much.

4 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, if the document could be admitted,

5 please.

6 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, it is being admitted into

7 evidence. Mr. Registrar.

8 THE REGISTRAR: As P817, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Waespi, I didn't get the 65 ter number.

10 MR. WAESPI: 03285, Judge Harhoff.

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

12 MR. WAESPI:

13 Q. Mr. Mrkovic, you talked yesterday briefly about Marko Lugonja, who

14 was the chief of intelligence and security of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps

15 during the whole period of the war; is that correct?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. And you said that you worked with him. Although you were not

18 formally subordinated to him, you had close contact with him during the

19 time you were in -- in Rajlovac. Is that correct?

20 A. Yesterday, I was very clear. Down to the professional lines I

21 cooperated with Marko Lugonja. All the intelligence that reached me, that

22 I received since Marko Ljubija was in the territory of responsibility of

23 the Sarajevo Corps was the assistant commander for intelligence. All the

24 intelligence that was relative to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps was

25 submitted to Marko Lugonja. That was in compliance with the rules. I was

Page 8203

1 duty-bound to follow the rules. If things did not refer to the

2 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, I would deliver those things to other units who

3 were interested in those pieces of information.

4 My cooperation with Marko Lugonja lasted throughout the war. At

5 that level he informed me about the things that were necessary for the

6 work of the airport where I worked and for the tasks that I performed at

7 Rajlovac. I'm not trying to escape that. I did cooperate with him, and I

8 did it throughout the war.

9 Q. Yes. That's not an issue I'm concerned about. I wanted to ask

10 you to confirm that Marko Lugonja, at that time a colonel in 1992, was

11 also like you, a professional JNA career officer; is that correct?

12 A. Yes. Marko Lugonja was a colonel, and I was captain, captain

13 first class. A major difference.

14 Q. Yes. And Colonel Marko Lugonja, he also like other officers made

15 the transition from the 4th JNA Corps right into the Sarajevo-Romanija

16 Corps in mid-1992; is that correct?

17 A. If you want to know this more precisely, he -- Marko Lugonja was

18 serving in Croatia as the intelligence officer in Karlovac when the army

19 withdrew from Croatia, Colonel Lugonja arrived in Sarajevo. He arrived in

20 the command of the 2nd military district and later on the 4th corps, as

21 you call it. And after the army withdrew from Bosnia, he didn't want to

22 do that. He did not want to lose his home again. He remained in

23 Sarajevo, and from the 4th corps -- actually, he withdrew with the army

24 but returned somewhat after -- after me, some two or three months after

25 me. So Marko Lugonja followed that route. He withdrew from Croatia

Page 8204

1 first, then from Bosnia. He went to Belgrade, and from Belgrade he

2 returned to Sarajevo. This is just to clarify the routes that Marko

3 Lugonja followed through -- throughout the war.

4 Q. Thank you very much for this detailed explanation. In fact, that

5 happened to almost hundred per cent of the JNA commanding officers who

6 were in -- in Sarajevo, at that time, who were from Bosnia. They stayed

7 as well and were transformed into the VRS. The commanding officer, the

8 cadre of the JNA who were from Bosnia, who were part of the JNA, they all

9 transformed into the VRS. Is that correct?

10 A. That is not correct. That is not correct.

11 Q. Can you give an explanation why that's not correct?

12 A. May I?

13 Q. Sure.

14 A. This is not correct. Let me just give you an example of the unit

15 that I served in. I claim that 40 per cent of the men in Rajlovac hailed

16 from Bosnia, and they all withdrew to Serbia pursuant to the order of the

17 Supreme Command dated 19th of May. After that, a lot of them who hailed

18 in Bosnia remained in Serbia. Some were necessary for the -- the army.

19 Some didn't want to go back. Some wanted to do other thing -- things. So

20 I can't agree that even 50 per cent of those who hailed from Bosnia and

21 Herzegovina returned and joined the VRS.

22 In my unit, the percentage was under 25 per cent. My institution

23 had 56 officers before the war and a majority of them hailed from Bosnia,

24 and none of them remained in Bosnia. In contrast, we had people who

25 hailed from Serbia who either arrived or remained in 1992, in the

Page 8205

1 territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina. But everything was done voluntarily.

2 Nobody was forced by anybody else to go somewhere. I went back on -- of

3 my own will. I chose my destiny myself. I chose myself to go back to

4 Bosnia and to do what I did.

5 So I really cannot accept your hundred per cent claim.

6 Q. Marko Lugonja gave an interview to the Office of the Prosecutor

7 in -- on the 19th November 2000, and he was asked whether -- that's on

8 page 6 of -- of an interview that has been disclosed, of course, to the

9 Defence. He was asked whether the --

10 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Tapuskovic.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise for interrupting,

12 Your Honours. I apologise to my learned friend Mr. Waespi, but I have not

13 received that document. I looked through the documents carefully, but I

14 don't think I received it. Perhaps I have overlooked something, but I

15 don't think. I don't think I have received the document.

16 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. President. We have this issue before. I

17 don't intend to tender this document as an exhibit. It's merely to put

18 propositions from what other witnesses, potential witnesses, real

19 witnesses said to the OTP, and that's possible in -- in cross-examination.

20 I do have two hard copies with me of the interviews which were

21 disclosed some time ago. If the Defence wants to have it, I'm happy to

22 hand it over.

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: But did you send it to the Defence?

24 MR. WAESPI: Yes, of course, Mr. President, as part of our

25 disclosure because it's highly relevant for the Defence.

Page 8206

1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you remember when you disclosed it to the

2 Defence?

3 MR. WAESPI: Maybe a year ago, two years ago. We can certainly

4 check that.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it was not put on

6 the list. I have received millions of pages, but it wasn't on the list,

7 nor is it on the list now. Had I been informed, I have certainly studied

8 -- I would have certainly studied it carefully. Now, if it was sent out

9 two years ago, well, I have no supernatural powers, and I apologise to my

10 colleague Mr. Waespi, but if he had at least told me of this yesterday

11 then I would have taken it on board.

12 Now, two years ago -- well, I can't look into a crystal ball and

13 say what is going to be used in this trial through certain witnesses. I

14 have to know this at least a day in advance, or that it should be

15 disclosed after the witness takes the solemn declaration when he starts

16 his testimony, and that wasn't done either.

17 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, if I can give an explanation; I tried

18 beforehand. We had issue about whether documents or exhibits, potential

19 exhibits, need to be disclosed as part of the list of exhibits or

20 documents which we intend to use, and I have used this document, this

21 interview before. I think it was Witness Veljovic, the first Defence

22 witness. And it was decided that, if I do not intend to exhibit a

23 document, if I do not intend to propose the document I'm quoting from as

24 an exhibit, there is no need nor duty to inform the Defence beforehand.

25 That was the practice I believe that was accepted by Your Honours. So --

Page 8207

1 but out of convenience for the Defence, I do have a copy of the document

2 here, a hard copy, even in B/C/S, which I'm happy to give to the Defence,

3 and they can look perhaps at the context of it. But there is no duty from

4 my side to indicate which document, which newspaper article, whatever, I'm

5 putting to the witness, if I have no intention to have it admitted as an

6 exhibit. That's my understanding, Mr. President.

7 And the document was disclosed on the 21st of June, 2005.

8 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Tapuskovic, I think

9 that we all agree. The OTP disclosed the document to you, among many

10 documents, two years ago, in 2005, and now we are in the context of the

11 cross-examination following on the examination-in-chief yesterday; and

12 therefore, the Prosecutor, having to deal with the questions that you

13 yourself addressed to the witness, is entitled to use the document that is

14 on the list of documents that were submitted to you. This is consistent

15 with the practice of the Trial Chamber. And therefore, I allow him to use

16 this document, knowing that it will not be admitted into evidence or

17 tendered.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I consider that it

19 is quite contrary to the rules of this Tribunal. A few days ago we had a

20 witness. It was Witness T-27. And we had a discussion about that, and I

21 can't understand the fact -- it was Witness Kovacevic, in actual fact.

22 And there was a whole piece of the transcript that was going to be put to

23 the witness. But in principle, if something is not on the list of

24 documents that will be used, then cannot be used. The fact that we were

25 disclosed something two years ago is immaterial in this kind of situation

Page 8208

1 when we have before us a witness. We must be provided with the documents

2 that are going to be used and put to the witness. Otherwise, I'm going to

3 have to ask for more time to study the documents, and once I've done that

4 to accept or -- or not having the witness examined on the documents.

5 So I object, but you can decide. I'm waiting for your ruling. If

6 you make a ruling to the contrary, then I will accept that, but it is

7 quite contrary to what we discussed with respect to Witness T-27 a few

8 days ago.

9 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Tapuskovic, I do not believe

10 that the case of Witness T-27 is identical. At any rate, the Trial

11 Chamber has already ruled, and so what you have said does not change this

12 in any way.

13 Mr. Waespi, you have the floor.

14 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. I offer a hard copy of

15 this interview in English and B/C/S for the Defence if they want to have

16 it. It's available.

17 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well.

18 MR. WAESPI:

19 Q. Okay. Mr. Mrkovic, when we interviewed Mr. Lugonja, and this is

20 on page 6 of both the English and the B/C/S version, he was asked by the

21 investigator, Mr. Barry Hogan, when the 4th Corps returned to Yugoslavia

22 on 19th May, did they take all their men and all their equipment with

23 them?" Mr. Lugonja answered "No." Then Mr. Hogan: "Is that the

24 essential part which actually became the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, the men

25 and the equipment that stayed behind the 4th Corps?" The answer was:

Page 8209

1 "Commanding officers within the 4th Corps who were from Bosnia, who were

2 born in Bosnia stayed and they were -- maybe, I think 95 per cent of them,

3 stayed."

4 That's what Marko Lugonja told us. 95 per cent of all the

5 officers of the 4th Corps who were from Bosnia, they stayed behind and

6 were transformed into the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. Do you accept what the

7 chief of intelligence of the SRK said to the OTP?

8 A. If Marko Lugonja said that, then he probably had reason for saying

9 that. And he knows about things like that. I'm talking about Rajlovac

10 and the unit that I was in. That's what I'm talking about. I really

11 don't know what the composition of the 4th Corps was or the command of the

12 2nd Military District. I know that they had a precipitous increase of men

13 with the withdrawal of the army from Zagreb. That's what I do know. But

14 what the percentage was, now 95 per cent, I don't know.

15 Where were these officers during the war? Because if you have a

16 brigade, for example, the 1st brigade, 2nd, 3rd Brigade, the commanders of

17 battalions and so on, where are the officers then if you have 95 per cent

18 of those officers staying on from the 4th Corps, which means that we would

19 have an active officer commander in each brigade or battalion. And at

20 Ilidza in the brigade command, we only had one active commander who held

21 the rank of an ordinary captain. I don't know where they were hiding or

22 hidden from us. I don't doubt the figures. Perhaps they are exact ones.

23 They might have just left and dispersed. But I'm talking about the

24 Rajlovac Brigade where the commander was an ordinary captain. The

25 commanders of the battalions had secondary school training. Perhaps one

Page 8210

1 of them or some of them had trained at the reserve officers school. Now,

2 I do believe what Marko Lugonja said, but I'm wondering where were those

3 people then. And if you look at the composition of any brigade, you'll

4 see that the situation was different.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Mr. Mrkovic is

6 speaking very fast. He'd have to speak slower, because it's too fast for

7 the record. I don't know whether the record will reflect all this. I

8 don't know whether this will be done, but whole sentences have been left

9 out.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Mrkovic, please be reminded that the

11 interpreters need to be able to follow you, so please speak more slowly.

12 But I wanted to ask the Prosecution, since we have spent some time

13 on this issue as to how the SRK was composed, what is -- what is your

14 argument? What is your point in bringing this up? What is it that you

15 want the Chamber to extract from -- from this evidence?

16 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, that goes again to background of what

17 happened in 1992. Paragraph 7 of the indictment, which talks about a

18 transformation, transition of the JNA units that supposedly left because

19 they were told to do so by the Security Council, but leaving behind much

20 of its equipment and, indeed, cadre, as we heard, transforming into the

21 SRK. So this was a gradual process which happened at that time and which

22 explains, in our submission, the situation that evolved starting from

23 1992, throughout the conflict until November 1995. So it is more

24 background for Your Honours to consider.

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: I -- thank you. I understand. But what

Page 8211

1 difference would it make if the officers were born in Bosnia and Sarajevo

2 rather than being people from somewhere else in the former Yugoslavia.

3 MR. WAESPI: Probably not much difference, but people were born

4 from Sarajevo. They knew Sarajevo, and they were familiar with the

5 weaponry, with the surroundings, with the advantage points. And, indeed,

6 they were familiar with their enemies as it were, and we'll come to that

7 in a moment.

8 These were people who were from Sarajevo and were fighting people

9 who were also from Sarajevo. That's a different -- a difference to when

10 somebody else comes in, somebody else fresh who has nothing to do with the

11 situation in Sarajevo.

12 That's part of what the Prosecution says happened in 1992.

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

14 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.

15 Q. The next point, Mr. Mrkovic, I wanted to ask you about, if you

16 have any knowledge, is the issue of snipers or sharpshooters. Yesterday,

17 you told us that your institute in Rajlovac was attacked by infantry

18 weapons, including snipers. Do you recall that?

19 A. Yes, that is what I said, and I stand by it.

20 Q. And these snipers were part of which army?

21 A. Part of the Bosnian-Herzegovinian army.

22 Q. But the SRK had also snipers, is that correct, in Sarajevo?

23 A. Is there a single army without any snipers? There is not. Within

24 the establishment of any military unit, infantry unit, I'm talking about

25 the infantry units now, they all have snipers.

Page 8212

1 Q. Thank you for this answer. So we can move on to the next issue,

2 the last one connected to Marko Lugonja. He was asked about the general

3 nature of the conflict in -- in Sarajevo, and he described it as a civil

4 war. And he said the following, I'd like you to listen carefully to what

5 I'm putting to you, and for the Defence benefit it's on page 50, in the

6 English version and on page 51, in the B/C/S version.

7 Marko Lugonja says the following, Mr. Mrkovic: "I have another

8 thing to say. Civil war on religious and national basis, Yugoslavia was

9 the only country in Europe in which three big world religions were

10 distributed equally --"

11 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Tapuskovic.

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Another comment with respect to

13 what we said at the beginning. If that is the case, if all this that we

14 haven't read yesterday and today, then we'd like to see Marko Lugonja here

15 to cross-examine him, because I don't think we can proceed in this manner.

16 I see no danger here for the accused Dragomir Milosevic, but in

17 principle, it is the same problem that we had with the other witness a few

18 days ago.

19 So this voluminous statement pulled out of context, and there are

20 dozens of pages, 110 pages, to be exact, we -- this would have to be

21 something that could be tested through the cross-examination of this

22 witness -- of a witness, if he were a Prosecution witness. Otherwise, I

23 don't understand where this is leading with all due respect to my

24 colleague Mr. Waespi.

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Tapuskovic, the -- the Chamber believes that

Page 8213

1 there's a huge difference between admitting a document into evidence

2 and -- on the one hand, and on the other hand, to confront a witness with

3 documents on which the only thing you wish to have is the witness's

4 comments to what is in that document. And I fully agree with you that if

5 the issue is that a certain document is brought up in the courtroom for

6 the purpose of tendering it into evidence, and if that document is a

7 statement that is taken from a witness, from another witness, then I agree

8 in that case we should certainly allow the Defence to have that witness

9 come into the courtroom for cross-examination. That goes without saying.

10 But I think that there is a difference between this situation on

11 the one hand and the other hand where you are just confronting the witness

12 that we have in front of us for the purpose of getting his comments and

13 nothing else.

14 Do you accept this?

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honours, I do

16 understand what you've just said, Judge Harhoff. However, even when these

17 things are put, I think that this statement, this testimony, is and

18 lengthy one which requires careful examination for one to understand the

19 whole context of it. And then having grasped the context, I would be able

20 to address every question put by the Prosecutor given the entire context

21 of the material, and that is why I think that the Defence is at a

22 disadvantage, whether this is tendered and admitted or not, because if you

23 extract fragments, then it doesn't show you the whole picture. And if I

24 were to study this carefully, who knows what I would find in addition to

25 these sentences that are used as a trigger for the examination.

Page 8214

1 So that is my line of thinking and why I raised the objection.

2 Otherwise, I understand the fate of this document, because in my opinion

3 it can, of course, not be admitted into evidence. I understand what

4 you're saying, and I can't go against that, but I can present my own

5 views. Thank you.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: But rest assured, Mr. Tapuskovic, that the Chamber

7 will have no interest in the earlier statement which you have now received

8 by the earlier witness. We're only interested in this witness's comments,

9 and this is the only thing at that we will take into consideration for the

10 case.

11 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Waespi, you may pursue.

12 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, yes, I totally agree what I'm reading

13 out is not evidence in itself. Evidence is whether the witness accepts it

14 or not. And it's also a fair comment by the Defence saying that it

15 shouldn't -- issues that are put to the witness shouldn't be taken out of

16 context, and I try not to do that. That's why I'm reading a whole part.

17 Q. So, Witness, let me go back to what Marko Lugonja told us in

18 November 2000. He said that: "Yugoslavia was the only country in Europe

19 in which three big world religions were distributed equally, Catholics,

20 Orthodox, and Muslim. But the problem was that national and religious

21 aspects were always connected or tied up. And on this territory, all the

22 wars -- most of the wars were on the same basis, were waged on the same

23 basis. For example, during the war you had commander Delic on one front

24 line who was Orthodox, and there was Muslim Commander Delic. They both

25 speak the same language. Until yesterday they went to the same cafe to

Page 8215

1 drink together, and somehow they managed to -- the idea of killing each

2 other in their heads. And you have the same situation in Sarajevo as

3 well. People who knew each other so well, and maybe all lived in the same

4 building, fired at each other. And there is not much mercy there. It's

5 worse than, say, if the Austrian army came in."

6 And the last paragraph: "Because it's historical memory, memory

7 of history, their grandfathers and grand-grandfathers waged the same wars

8 and the everyone thinks that he has got molested worse than the other

9 side, and he needs to make up for it in this war. So the hatred is

10 almighty motive that is produced so quickly in such conditions."

11 Now, do you share the assessment of Marko Lugonja of what he

12 perceived from his sources being throughout the war in Sarajevo as the

13 chief of intelligence and security? Do you share his assessment of the

14 causes and the way the war was waged in Sarajevo?

15 A. First of all, I can say that I agree in part with the statement,

16 that it was a national war or ethnic war, part of Croatia and so on.

17 There I would agree with his evaluation. But I wouldn't agree with one of

18 the things that was stated. We came to Sarajevo, lived for a few months

19 in Sarajevo, and then say how the war came about. The war in Sarajevo was

20 probably being prepared far in advance by those who intended to wage it.

21 Marko Lugonja arrived in Sarajevo only in 1991, and the war could

22 not be organised in five minutes or five months. It could not come about

23 during that short space of time. The war in Bosnia-Herzegovina --

24 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, please do not forget to

25 speak more slowly to allow the interpreters and court reporters to follow

Page 8216

1 you.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you.

3 MR. WAESPI:

4 Q. Would you like to continue, or is that what you said?

5 A. Look at the wars in 1941, 1939 on the territory of

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Look at that war and then you'll see. And as

7 Prosecutor of this Tribunal, take a look at history, the history of

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina. We would need a lot of time to talk about what

9 happened there at that time or during the last century. And it is within

10 that context that we can then speak about what the war in Sarajevo is.

11 That it was a national war, I do agree there. That I drank coffee with my

12 Muslim colleagues, that's true. We would greet each other, kiss each

13 other in parting, and we would each go our different ways. I cry when my

14 colleague is killed, and the Muslims cry when one of us is killed. So

15 that was the war in Sarajevo as we experienced it.

16 Q. Now, because you said that some parts you accept, some you don't.

17 I think the key of what Marko Lugonja says is his last sentence; where he

18 says that"hatred is almighty motive that is produced so quickly in such

19 conditions."

20 Would you agree that hatred was part of the way war was waged in

21 Sarajevo between the two warring factions? Would you were with that?

22 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Tapuskovic.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have nothing

24 against the witness presenting his own views, and I am quite certain that

25 he could tell us a lot more, things that could be to the Defence's

Page 8217

1 advantage, but to ask the witness about all this, and his opinion -- to

2 compare his opinion to somebody else's opinion, well, I don't mind

3 listening to Mrkovic further, and I'm sure he could tell you a great many

4 more things about who cried for who and what kind of war that was, but

5 that was not something that a witness needs to tell us here. At least

6 that is my opinion.

7 He's a witness here who is here to tell us what he himself saw

8 in Rajlovac and the surrounding parts, in the geographical area that he

9 lived in. But of course if you want to hear other things from him, I

10 don't mind. And you'll hear of all the suffering that lead up to the

11 conflict. But I think that is up to you to assess, but otherwise those

12 views I don't think serve any purpose at this point.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I be allowed to finish?

14 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Indeed I do wonder, because do you

15 think you can really did the witness whether hatred was one of the causes

16 of this war as Mr. Marko Lugonja asserted? What exactly is the foundation

17 of this kind of question?

18 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. It's less the causes than

19 what happened during the war. And the witness was a very senior

20 intelligence security officer in Sarajevo. Perhaps limited to Rajlovac,

21 but he was also at the airport. And based on his information he gathered,

22 I'm just interested what he thinks are, you know, the ways soldiers

23 waged -- waged war. What their motives were and I -- I'd like

24 to hear his view also in contrast to what the chief of intelligence of the

25 SRK said.

Page 8218

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Waespi, the Trial Chamber would

3 like you to move on to something else.

4 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I be allowed to

6 say just one more sentence in response to the Prosecutor's question about

7 hatred?

8 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] We should move on to another topic.

9 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Q. Let's move to Defence Exhibit 307, which was discussed by the

11 Defence with you yesterday. If that could be retrieved, please.

12 You remember that document was an ABiH document that discussed the

13 preparations of the SRK in anticipation of the breakout of the ABiH. Do

14 you remember discussing this document with the Defence yesterday?

15 A. Yes. Yes.

16 Q. Now, the assessment or the basis, the sources for the assessment

17 of the ABiH included comments from, and I quote it on English page 2, line

18 5, and it's on page 1 of the Serbian version where it starts, "Iz

19 komentara." "The basis for the assessment of the ABiH was comments of

20 stated aggressors officers."

21 So that means that the ABiH somehow talked to SRK officers or at

22 least had access to some information from the other side. Is that true?

23 At least as it relates to this document?

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

25 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Tapuskovic.

Page 8219

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown the

2 exact place where this is stated, where this is indicated? Can the

3 witness please be allowed to read that place first before he's allowed to

4 answer?

5 MR. WAESPI: Yes.

6 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, you're right. Could you tell

7 us where exactly this is written?

8 MR. WAESPI: It's about the eighth line from the bottom of the

9 first page of the B/C/S version it starts "Iz komentara."

10 Q. Can you see that, Witness?

11 A. "From the comments" -- "From the comments of the BiH army" -- no

12 it's not here. I don't know what you wanted to say by this from the

13 comments. "From the comments of the aforementioned aggressor officers, it

14 is obvious they are privy to information." Is that what you're referring

15 to, but the sense is completely different. It says here, "from the

16 comments." Please read, and I will also take another moment to read the

17 whole thing. "From the comments of the aforementioned aggressor officer,

18 it is clear that they are privy to the information that the army of Bosnia

19 and Herzegovina --" would you like me to explain?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. I'm sure they were also engaged in intelligence as we did, and

22 that from our comments maybe they were eavesdropping on our officers and

23 our telephone conversations. We did the same. Maybe we learned that we

24 were aware of the fact that they were preparing for an offensive. It was

25 our right to prepare for a counter-attack. And I don't know.

Page 8220

1 Q. Yes, exactly --

2 A. It was good that we both knew what the other side was doing,

3 because if everybody knew everything, then it was easy to find a common

4 language.

5 Q. Yes. That's exactly what I was about to -- to base my question

6 on, that you knew from information what the other side was -- was doing.

7 Now let me go to the last --

8 A. Please, no, not all. Nobody is saying that we knew all. We

9 received information, some of which was false. I didn't say that we knew

10 everything, that we knew everything to the last letter.

11 Q. Okay. Let's go to the last sentence of this document, and you

12 were asked about that by the Defence yesterday. And it says here, and

13 it's the last sentence in B/C/S as well, I'll read it in English at the

14 end of page 2: "Based on this and previous knowledge, we are of the

15 opinion that Serbian terrorists shall, by using artillery missiles of

16 great destructive power, act in the following days upon the City of

17 Sarajevo and nearby and at the same time try the certain offensive

18 actions, most probably in the direction of Ilidza."

19 So that's the assessment of the ABiH of what could be happening in

20 the next few days from the Serbian side; is that correct?

21 A. Yes. This is what they wrote. Whether this is correct or not is

22 an entirely different matter. I'm just commenting on what it says in the

23 document. There is no document without the last sentence being appended

24 to it.

25 Here they call us Chetniks, Serb aggressor. I was not an

Page 8221

1 aggressor. I was living in my territory. And I'm insulted by that

2 derogatory terms. Would you agree with that, that I was not an aggressor

3 of any sort, would you agree with that?

4 Q. I don't think it's my job to comment on at that. Let me ask you

5 if you have any knowledge about --

6 A. You are the one who have read it out to me. There is no

7 document - this is what I was saying - in which they did not add at the

8 end that we would be shelling Sarajevo, that the Serb army would be

9 shelling Sarajevo. That's probably also the reason why they could later

10 on plant an explosion here and there when they found it convenient in

11 political and military terms. They would kill somebody in Sarajevo. For

12 example, in Djurodjapkovic [phoen], five Serbs were killed there in 1993.

13 I don't know the date. Yesterday, you asked me about the

14 investigations. Sniper bullets from the Serbian police -- Serbian

15 positions could not reach Djurodjapovica [phoen] Street. There were such

16 cases also, but we could go on for five days talking about things like

17 that. But this was a sentence that was a staple sentence in every

18 document, especially their state intelligence that was headed by Enver

19 Mujezinovic who was a good mate of mine from before the war and he was

20 succeeded by Ugljen. He continued along the same course and that was the

21 last staple sentence that was appended to all their reports, without a

22 single shell having fallen anywhere before that.

23 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Waespi, according to the

24 calculations of the registrar you already used up an hour and 45 minutes

25 for your cross-examination which was only to last two hours, which means

Page 8222

1 that you have 15 minutes left.

2 MR. WAESPI: Thank you very much. And I will certainly comply, be

3 within that time-frame.

4 Q. Let me ask you about if you know the word artillery missiles of

5 great destructive power which is mentioned in here. Do you have any idea

6 what the ABiH intelligence might be referring to? Could that be air bombs

7 perhaps?

8 A. In my view, a mortar shell, 60-millimetre, is also destructive and

9 a great missile, not to go any further. Those also have great destructive

10 power, those mortars shells. A 60-millimetre mortar shell wreaks havoc

11 among the troops, among the civilian population. So I don't have to go

12 any further to explain why this is a great destructive power. Let's not

13 even -- let's not even talk about a 250 kilogramme bomb. That is also

14 huge destructive power.

15 Q. Yes, I could not agree more with you about that. But the SRK did

16 have air bombs. You mentioned 250-kilogramme bombs, that was in the

17 possession of the SRK and they used it. Did you remember that?

18 A. Just a moment. Just a moment. Hold on just a second. Who said

19 that the SRK had air -- air bombs? I didn't say that.

20 Q. Yes, I'm asking you.

21 A. The Sarajevo-Romanija Corps air bombs, I didn't say that. You're

22 putting this to me and I never said it.

23 Q. Yes, I'm asking you, did the SRK have air bombs?

24 A. All the air bombs that we had remained in the depot in Busovaca

25 for the entire former Yugoslavia. Everything was in the depot in

Page 8223

1 Busovaca. When you're talking about the air bombs in the SRK, I did hear

2 some information about those air bombs, but as far as I know, there were

3 very few, if any at all, in the units. Why they were requested, why they

4 -- you saw document that Haris Silajdzic and Alija Izetbegovic brought

5 800 air bombs, but I don't know why. They didn't have any aircraft. In

6 Banja Luka there were aircraft but they couldn't fly over. So I don't

7 know why the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina should have requested air bombs if

8 they didn't have aeroplanes. You know very well what an air bomb is. You

9 have to an aeroplanes to be able to use air bombs.

10 Q. I'm talking about SRK, Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. I'm talking about

11 air bombs which were modified to fire them from makeshift launchers in the

12 area of responsibility of the SRK or from the area of responsibility of

13 the SRK. Do you have any knowledge of them using air bombs, modified air

14 bombs including these 250 kilos you mentioned? Yes or no?

15 A. If you're asking me about my information, I can share with you my

16 view that I held at that time. There was talk about those air bombs. I

17 didn't see anything personally or hear anything personally. I only heard

18 from other sources. My personal position is always -- has always been

19 that an air bomb can only be used by throwing it from an aeroplane. There

20 is no genius who can come up with a launchpad for this bomb to be launched

21 from it. But those were not soldiers who speculated about that or did

22 that. Those were some poorly organised groups who only had their thought

23 in their heads.

24 I also heard information that never reached me through official

25 channels that a group did try to do that, that somebody was killed in the

Page 8224

1 course of doing that through unprofessional handling. I don't know

2 whether the attempt was abandoned quickly or not, but let me tell you I

3 know what an air bomb is, how it's attached to an aircraft.

4 Q. Thank you. Witness -- if Prosecution Exhibits P225, could be

5 retrieved, please.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Before we leave --

7 MR. WAESPI: We'll stay on the subject.

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Are you going to change the document? Because --

9 MR. WAESPI: Yes. Yes.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: -- I have a question and that's why I'm

11 intervening. So before we leave this Exhibit D307, I would like to put a

12 few questions to the witness because I'm not sure that I have fully

13 understood the meaning of this document.

14 As far as I can see, it's a letter from the ABiH commander

15 Hadzihasanovic, in which he speaks about intelligence that he has received

16 about the knowledge that the SRK had about the forthcoming and planned

17 attacks of the ABiH to break out of Sarajevo. That is to say, that the

18 ABiH commander knew that the SRK was aware of the ABiH plans to launch an

19 attack, and also that the ABiH commander knew that the SRK, on its side,

20 had prepared a counter-attack. Is that correctly understood? And if I am

21 right in assuming this, then my question is, what sort -- or do you know

22 what sort of counter-attack the SRK had planned? So these are two

23 questions. Firstly, if you could advise me if I have understood this

24 correctly, and then if that is so, what were the counter-attacks the SRK

25 had in mind, if you know.

Page 8225

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Put it this way: You have

2 understood the document well, but let me just draw your attention to one

3 thing. Let's go back to the first page of that document. This is not

4 Rasim's document, the document of the commander of the main staff, this is

5 a document by the chief of the state security of the Republic of Bosnia

6 and Herzegovina which was sent to President Izetbegovic to Rasim Delic,

7 the commander of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and to the MUP minister.

8 Bakrac Alispahic who was the minister of the interior is superior to the

9 person who drafted this document and this document was only forwarded to

10 Rasim Delic, the commander of the army and that was their task, official

11 task. They had to inform of their intentions every -- of these

12 addressees. This is the only main difference. Otherwise, you have

13 understood the document well.

14 This is not Rasim Delic's document. This is a document by the

15 state security services that forwarded the document to all those who were

16 interested in the -- as for the intention, of course that the document

17 exaggerates the work of the intelligence service, portraying them as

18 knowing everything and being able to do everything. I would only be able

19 to laugh at that. We all very often laugh at things. The intention of

20 the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps at the time was defence and nothing but

21 defence operations. Defence, defence, defence. At least in the area of

22 responsibility where I was, but I believe that the same went on in -- in

23 the other parts of the Sarajevo region. I'm talking about defence and

24 nothing but defence.

25 In -- in that offensive, we were really on the defensive, if you

Page 8226

1 understand me.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: I do understand you, and I accept, of course, that

3 a counter-attack is a perfectly legitimate attack in anticipation of -- of

4 attack from the other side. But my question was really, if indeed the SRK

5 did plan some sort of counter-attacks, do you then know what these

6 counter-attacks were?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What the corps command planned is

8 nothing I can talk about. I did not receive this document. However, in

9 the -- in the area of Rajlovac we were not planning any counter-attacks.

10 All we did was defending ourselves.

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

12 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Judge Harhoff.

13 Q. Just to finish off this, Prosecution Exhibit 225, please. This

14 document you are about to see is a combat report from the

15 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, and it goes up to the Main Staff of the VRS, it

16 dates of 7 April 1995. Can you see that?

17 A. I can see that.

18 Q. And you can see that on page 2, of the Serbian version and also on

19 the page 2 of the English version, you have, "Our forces." The second

20 paragraph. Can you see that? Mr. Mrkovic?

21 A. Yes, I can see that.

22 Q. I'll read it out, it says: "We responded to enemy fire as

23 follows:

24 "In Ilidza by infantry arms, PA gun and 82 millimetre BST.

25 "In Ilidza, infantry brigade one 120-millimetre mine was fired and

Page 8227

1 one 250-kilogramme AB was launched at the centre of Hrasnica. According

2 to the interception centre, the Muslims claim that the Luna rocket landed.

3 "In the 2nd Slpbr, we responded to enemy attacks by infantry

4 weapons 60, 82, and 100-millimetre MB."

5 That states by the commander of the SRK and not by some soldiers

6 who speculated about doing it, as you put it, that indeed a 250-kilogramme

7 air bomb was launched at the centre of Hrasnica. Do you agree with me?

8 A. I didn't see it. I didn't hear it. If the document is original,

9 then -- but to launch an air bomb from any launchpad my -- my opinion, the

10 opinion of a person who knows what an air bomb is, I wouldn't dare do it,

11 and I would not dare order anybody else to do it. A 250 air bomb, if that

12 bomb had exploded in Hrasnica, half Hrasnica would be missing if such a

13 bomb had fallen on it.

14 I spent a lot of time in tactical firing from the aeroplane with

15 these bombs, napalm bombs. I believe half of Hrasnica would be missing.

16 There was a lot of exaggeration for psychological effect on both sides. I

17 really wouldn't comment upon this document if this document is what it is

18 and if it is original.

19 If I were commander, I would never allow this. It would never

20 even occur to me that somebody would be able to do that. I'm not talking

21 about only about 250-kilogramme bombs but to improvise a launchpad on the

22 ground and to launch a bomb from it. I don't know.

23 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. No further questions.

24 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Waespi,

25 the Prosecution.

Page 8234

1 have been destroyed and the victims would be innumerable. And as I know

2 there were a lot of -- it was a densely populated settlement. A third of

3 it would have been destroyed with a great deal of human casualty involved.

4 .

5 Q. Could an air bomb of such destructive power explode with just two,

6 three, or not a single shrapnel?

7 A. Well, you can't have an air bomb with just two or three shrapnels.

8 If you have another type of air bomb, the M-72 hand bomb, and we call it a

9 fort bomb, if you have five or six balls in one, and in another with 500

10 shrapnels in this small bomb that is a hand launched bomb, it's a hand

11 grenade, actually, well, you can calculate the destructive power for

12 yourself.

13 Q. Thank you, just one more question. In response to a question from

14 my learned friend Mr. Waespi, you spoke about snipers and said that you

15 wouldn't find a single army in the world without a sniper, without snipers

16 in it. Now, the armies -- as armies have to have snipers, tell us what

17 these snipers are used for.

18 A. Well, there are rules and regulations about the deployment of

19 snipers. If you have a sniper nest somewhere, then you would attack that

20 sniper nest by using a sniper.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

23 Questioned by the Court:

24 JUDGE HARHOFF: I wish to put a few questions to you to clarify

25 your answer to the questions by Counsel Tapuskovic. My question relates

Page 8235

1 again to the interpretation of documents Delta 307, and I'm now quoting

2 from your answer, and I'm putting the question to you because I'm not sure

3 I fully understand what it was you really said. And if I read from the

4 transcript, you said that the army of Republika Srpska, this is on page

5 38, line number 3. That: "Army of Republika Srpska had at its disposal

6 information about its offensive and that the offensive would take place in

7 the next two days, that we should be aware of that, and they were

8 preparing for the shelling of Sarajevo.

9 "And as I said in the latest report that sentence always existed.

10 There was always that sentence. The document itself indicates the fact

11 that they'd already written in advance that Sarajevo would be shelled and

12 that they probably knew where it would happen, but on the basis of this

13 document, we can understand that the shelling of Sarajevo was imminent."

14 This is what you said. End of quotation. What I'm not sure about

15 is who are you referring to when you say that the shelling of Sarajevo was

16 imminent? I -- I think what you're saying here is that the SRK had

17 planned shelling of Sarajevo as a defensive measure taken in anticipation

18 of the -- of the attack that they knew was coming from the ABiH. So I

19 would like you to confirm if that is what you are saying.

20 A. No. That's not what I said.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Of course I don't have the right

22 to object to the Court's questions, but that's not what it says in the

23 transcript. He said he does not understand -- I did not understand this

24 assertion. It's -- that's what it says, Judge Harhoff, if we look at the

25 transcript on page 37, line 23.

Page 8236

1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you for assisting me in my interpretation of

2 the witness's answer. I am fully aware of the opening remark, and I

3 understand this opening remark as the witness's immediate interpretation

4 of what the document says. My question, nevertheless, relates to what was

5 the witness's knowledge about the counter-attacks that the SRK apparently

6 had planned.

7 Mr. Tapuskovic, the interest I have in this issue is to find out

8 what were the counter -- the defensive -- what were the legitimate

9 defensive counter-measures which the SRK had planned in anticipation of

10 the ABiH attack, and -- and my question goes to the witness if he had any

11 knowledge of these counter-attacks on the basis of the suggestion made in

12 the document that such counter-attacks were indeed planned. So there you

13 have it. And I still need to hear the witness's answer.

14 A. Your Honour, I understand this document in the following way:

15 That the BH army is being informed that the army of Republika Srpska knows

16 about the -- their intentions for an offensive. It learnt about their

17 intentions for an offensive, and that's normal. And they are issuing a

18 warning now. They are saying that we know about it, and in the last

19 sentence --

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It's written wrongly again on the

21 transcript, Judge Harhoff, and that might lead you astray. "Of their

22 offensive." The witness said "their offensive." Here it says "an

23 offensive." That's a big difference and that can lead you astray when you

24 read. It can be corrected later on, of course, but there's no value in

25 that. It's their offensive, not an offensive.

Page 8237

1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Tapuskovic, I have been quoting from the

2 transcript, and I would like the witness to give his reply, and then if

3 you have remarks to make about possible mistakes in the interpretation,

4 then you can do so, but let the witness finish now, please.

5 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, please.

6 A. I have understood the document in the following way: That the

7 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina is being informed by the state security that

8 the army of Republika Srpska knows about their intentions for an offensive

9 and that the army of Republika Srpska is preparing for that attack of

10 theirs. The Rajlovac area responsibility of the army of Republika Srpska

11 and where I was also received a piece of information. I remember that

12 very well when I think back now about the intentions of the army of

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina to carry out an attack along all axes, especially along

14 the Ilidza axis, and quite normally we were preparing for that attack.

15 And we didn't have a single order to launch a counter-offensive. So the

16 exclusive intention at least in the area of responsibility where I was,

17 was defence. And we used all our engineering -- we carried out all our

18 engineering work within the space of 48 hours and there were no further

19 attacks.

20 Now, what you're asking me about, I don't think you will find a

21 single order of ours where somebody ordered or wrote that the town, the

22 city, should be shelled as a town.

23 Now, to shell positions, that is the legitimate right of each army

24 in defence. As to a town that I knew that somebody had the intention of

25 doing this to a town, nobody did in an offensive of that kind where

Page 8238

1 they're being prepare -- where they are preparing, we did not have the

2 intention of shelling the town.

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well. I understand you to say that the

4 suggestion made in this letter about knowledge inside the ABiH that the

5 SRK had planned counter-attacks must be wrong. The -- the SRK did not

6 plan, to your knowledge, any such counter-attacks. And so if the ABiH had

7 information about or intelligence about such counter-attacks, then that

8 counter-intelligence is wrong. That is how I understand your testimony.

9 Is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well. Do you have any objections against

12 this Mr. Tapuskovic?

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I did have some comments and I

14 objected to the transcript. When the transcript comes up before you, it

15 could lead you astray. You might not be properly informed about his

16 answer while he was answering. But I have no objections to your

17 questions, of course, neither will I ever make any objections to your

18 questions. And the witness has already answered, and he's given you an

19 answer again to your question, and I have no comments or objections to

20 make there.

21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Prosecution, do you have any comments to this?

22 MR. WAESPI: No, Mr. President. The document speaks for itself.

23 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] All right, fine. I think that we're

24 coming now to the end of this witness's testimony. Turning to the

25 witness, I would like to thank you very much, sir. The Chamber thanks you

Page 8239

1 for coming over to The Hague to bring your contribution to international

2 justice. I would like to wish you a safe journey back home and a lot of

3 success in your endeavours. You're now being released and you can leave

4 the room. Thank you.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Tapuskovic, who is the next

7 witness?

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the next witness is

9 Witness T-21. His name and surname is Momcilo Gojkovic. And there are no

10 protective measures requested for him.

11 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Tapuskovic, I understand that

12 the witness has no protection measures. Is that right?

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour Judge Mindua.

14 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] All right. Fine. I think the

15 usher is going to introduce the witness any minute now.

16 All right. For this witness we are going to devote an hour and 30

17 minutes for the Defence and an hour 30 minutes for the Prosecution. So

18 we're going to try to stick to the speaking time, because we will still

19 have other witnesses to hear today.

20 Mr. Tapuskovic.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have two more

22 witnesses today, the one that is just coming into the courtroom and one

23 more, and we hope to conclude with those witnesses perhaps even before the

24 end of business today. Another witness that was to have come in has,

25 unfortunately, been taken ill.

Page 8240

1 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] So among the remaining two or one

2 of these two. Who is sick, one of these two or another one? So we have

3 the witness who is here, but then there are two more; is that right?

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. This one and

5 T-15 with protective measures. This witness will have three hours, the

6 second one, two hours. And the witness which was supposed to have also

7 come in has broken his leg and is not here at all, but he will come in at

8 some point perhaps, and I'll try and be as rational with my use of time as

9 possible. But I think that these two witnesses that we have planned for

10 today will finish in the course of the day today.

11 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Well, thank you very much for that

12 clarification.

13 [The witness entered court]

14 WITNESS: MOMCILO GOJKOVIC

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. The Chamber

17 thanks you for coming over to The Hague to make your testimony. I would

18 like you to stand up, please, and tell me if you can understand in your

19 own language what I am telling you. If that is the case, tell me yes, and

20 I will understand.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

22 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] All right. Fine. I will ask the

23 registrar to make sure that you're reading out the solemn declaration.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 8241

1 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Please do sit

2 down now.

3 Pursuant to the practice of this Chamber, I'm going to ask the

4 Defence counsel, and ask Mr. Tapuskovic representing the Defence today, to

5 check your identity, and then we are going to have the

6 examination-in-chief.

7 Mr. Tapuskovic.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I will

9 do as you ask.

10 Examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

11 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, can you please tell the Judges your

12 first and last name?

13 A. My name is Momcilo Gojkovic.

14 Q. Thank you. And you were born on the 26th of September, 1951?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you please wait for the entire text to be typed out and then

17 when the cursor stops then you can begin your answers, regardless of how

18 short the questions are.

19 You were born in Sarajevo, in Novo Sarajevo? That's a Sarajevo

20 municipality, in the Stanojevici neighbourhood?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Again you didn't wait for the text to finish, and again there

23 could have been a problem. So, I ask you please pay attention to this. We

24 will not get very far if you do not wait for the end of the question and

25 for it to be completely typed into the transcript.

Page 8242

1 You finished elementary school in the settlement or neighbourhood

2 of Vraca?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you finished secondary electrical engineering school in

5 Pofalici?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you completed your regular term of duty in the JNA, just like

8 any other citizens of that country, in 1972 and 1973?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. When the conflict broke out, you were working at the post office

11 in the Dolac Malta neighbourhood of Sarajevo?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. While you were working in Sarajevo you lived in an apartment in

14 Dobrinja 3?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Since it is important for me in my examination-in-chief that will

17 mostly focus on some characteristics of the terrain where you lived, I am

18 going to show you a map so that you can explain to me or to the Trial

19 Chamber everything that I would like you to explain, and that is the

20 65 ter number 2872. 65 ter -- oh, all right.

21 Can we zoom in on the map a little bit, please?

22 Can you circle on this map the place where the post office was?

23 Can we see it here or do we need to ...

24 THE INTERPRETER: We cannot hear the witness.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]

Page 8243

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Can you mark that with the letter P.

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. In the Roman alphabet, Witness.

5 A. Here?

6 Q. Yes. Now can you mark your place where your house was, your

7 apartment. The apartment in Dobrinja 3.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. Can you mark that with the letter K.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. Can you please explain to the Judges how long you went to work?

12 A. I went to work until the 15th of May.

13 Q. The 15th of May?

14 A. No, the 15th of April. Excuse me. Excuse me. I made a mistake.

15 Q. You have to tell us which year. And just one moment, Mr.

16 Gojkovic. Do not rush. Please wait until the whole question is

17 transcribed and then give a complete answer.

18 So I'm asking you again. How long did you go to work? Can you

19 please give us the date and the year?

20 A. I went to work until the 15th of April, 1992.

21 Q. You were hurrying again and you were not paying attention to the

22 transcript. Please do not speak -- do not say anything when I am

23 speaking. I am asking you. These are very big difficulties for all of us

24 who are working here, including the interpreters, so please wait for my

25 complete question to be typed into the transcript and then give it a

Page 8244

1 second or two and then you can begin to answer. Do not start your answer

2 until the cursor on the monitor stops, please. Can you please do that.

3 Why did you go to work until that day, until then?

4 A. On the 15th of April, 1992, I left work early. I went -- there

5 was the B and H TO, Territorial Defence, on the street already with

6 weapons. When I left the company, I reached Pofalici. Since my family,

7 my children, and -- two children were already in the family house at

8 Stanojevici. Actually, they left the family house in Stanojevici. My

9 wife and I had left work. By the time we got to Pofalici, where I got off

10 the tram in order to go to Grbavica, I was intercepted by three young men

11 in civilian clothing with rifles on their shoulders. They asked for my

12 papers. They took my personal ID card, and they told my wife to continue

13 on. However, after a certain amount of time, near the school of economics

14 you could hear shooting. Then they left. And in the meantime, I

15 continued on my way towards Grbavica. At that point, I crossed the bridge

16 of Bratstvo-Jedinstvo and I crossed into Grbavica and I went to my family

17 house.

18 Q. Thank you. And now again, please, I would like you to wait. Can

19 you now mark the place where your family house was on this map.

20 A. It's not here on this map. We would need to move the map.

21 Q. Can I please ask to have the map moved all the way to the right,

22 because I'm going to be dealing with that section of the map. But first

23 we have to save this. I think that if you move the map, the markings will

24 disappear. Is that correct? Can we please save the map in this form

25 first, and then we can continue. Then we can focus on the right-hand side

Page 8245

1 of the map, because my entire examination-in-chief will focus on that

2 section of the map.

3 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] So you're asking to tender this

4 exhibit? It is being tendered into evidence. Mr. Registrar.

5 THE REGISTRAR: As D309, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] We need to go all the way to the

8 right. Now it's fine.

9 Q. And can you please answer one more question first. We saw this

10 photograph earlier. Did you ever return to work, or did you ever return

11 to your apartment where you lived before you went to your family house?

12 A. I never went back to work or to my apartment.

13 Q. Thank you. And now can you please mark the place where your

14 family house was.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. And can you mark the circle with the letter M, please.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. Your last name is Gojkovic.

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. Please do not answer anything until I complete my question. Your

21 last name is Gojkovic, and what is the name -- Witness, please do not

22 begin to answer until I finish speaking and until that is transcribed into

23 the transcript. Then you can answer.

24 Your last name is Gojkovic. What is the place where your house,

25 your family house was?

Page 8246

1 A. On the map it says Gojkovic.

2 Q. Please do not start your answer until the cursor stops, because

3 I'm just simply not going to be able to go on. Please.

4 A. It says Gojkovici.

5 Q. Thank you. And can you please tell us when you joined the

6 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps? And we can make it a little bit faster now.

7 A. After I left Sarajevo, I joined the corps.

8 Q. You said you left in April.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. But when did you join the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

11 A. We joined the corps in May when it was formed.

12 Q. And can you please tell the Judges how you acquired weapons?

13 A. We got weapons at Tilava, from the civilian protection. Actually,

14 we broke into the warehouses and we took the weapons.

15 Q. Can you point out the place where this civilian protection was

16 located?

17 A. Perhaps if we could zoom in a little bit on the map.

18 Q. What was the name of the place?

19 A. Tilava.

20 Q. If it's not on the map, I know it's a little bit further to the

21 south, but it's no good now moving the map. Can you indicate the

22 direction where it is?

23 A. It's here.

24 Q. Can you please indicate the direction, roughly, where it was and

25 then put a mark there, please.

Page 8247

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. And can you mark that place with the letter T.

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. Now can you please tell me where the line of separation was -- or

5 first of all, can you answer the question -- this question: Which unit

6 did you belong to?

7 A. I belonged to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, the 2nd Battalion, 2nd

8 Company.

9 Q. Which battalion? What sort of a battalion?

10 A. An infantry battalion. It was a battalion of the infantry unit.

11 Q. I understand that, but what brigade was it?

12 A. The 2nd Brigade.

13 Q. The 2nd Brigade. Did it have a name?

14 A. It was the Sarajevo 2nd Brigade, Sarajevska.

15 Q. Thank you. And when you see this map, can you please tell us where

16 you were? Where were your positions? And can you indicate that with a

17 line on this map in front of you.

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. So what is to the left and to the right of that place? What is

20 the geographical area there like?

21 A. To the left were the so-called 8s Osmices.

22 Q. Can you please circle that?

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. And can you mark that with the letter G.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 8248

1 Q. But you put the line on this yellow line. What is this yellow

2 line?

3 A. The yellow line is the road Vraca-Trebevic-Pale.

4 Q. And what is this area to the left of this red line? What is that

5 area called?

6 A. To the left of the red line is Zlatiste.

7 Q. Can you please draw a line that would mark what you call Zlatiste?

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. Can you now tell the Judges -- well, these were the positions

10 where you were at, but tell them when you arrived to take up those

11 positions, that first marking of yours, the red line? So would you put an

12 R by the red line, please.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. And the second one where you speak of Zlatiste, put a Z, please.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. Thank you. And the positions that you marked with the R letter,

17 when did you arrive there?

18 A. The positions that I marked with an R, were ones we arrived at on

19 the 15th of June -- or between the 15th of June and 1st of July.

20 Q. And who held those positions up until that time, until that 15th

21 of July and beginning of -- of July -- 15th of June and beginning of July?

22 So who held those lines, the ones you've marked?

23 A. Those lines were held by the Territorial Defence of the BH army --

24 or, rather, BH.

25 Q. And, Witness, on the 15th of June, where did you have to go if you

Page 8249

1 wanted to go to Lukavica or Pale?

2 A. When we wanted to go to Pale and Lukavica, we had to take the

3 macadam road across Krdemic [phoen], Kleka, to Golubici, and Pavlovac and

4 then take the road towards Jahorina.

5 Q. Could you draw that line, at least approximately, the route.

6 A. I can't draw the line because I can't find the places.

7 Q. Well, approximately. Yes, you can't draw it all exactly on this

8 map, but just draw us an approximate line.

9 A. And the line continues from Tilava to Kleka, to Golubici, Pavlovac

10 and then on towards Jahorina.

11 Q. Thank you. Along the bottom of the map draw a straight line, a

12 straight line, because we can't move the map, in that direction.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Draw the full line.

15 A. You mean to the end?

16 Q. If you're going to Pale, Pale isn't that way. And you mentioned

17 Jahorina, didn't you? Just draw the line to the end -- or never mind.

18 Thank you. Continue towards Lukavica.

19 A. You want me to draw in towards Lukavica or what?

20 Q. An approximate line in the direction of Lukavica, please.

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. Thank you. And what did the fighting look like until June before

23 you stopped at these positions and along that road?

24 A. Before we reached those positions we weren't able to communicate

25 along that route, because they were under fire from Debelo Brdo, and from

Page 8250

1 Ramac to up there. We weren't able to pass by that way. Until this

2 Prvi Sumar.

3 Q. And where is this Prvi Sumar? What is this place? Could you draw

4 it in? Well, let's not waste time here. We have to continue.

5 A. Well, I can't draw it in on this map.

6 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Tapuskovic, while the witness

7 to trying to find on the map this particular location, could you please

8 clarify what year we're talking. When you said up until June, what year

9 was that. When he talked about the combat activities he said until June,

10 and I wonder what year he's talking about.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, you're quite right, Judge

12 Mindua. I thought the witness had answered.

13 Q. Whenever you get a date, Witness, from now until we complete the

14 examination, you have it to give us the date and the year, because without

15 that it's no use. So what June are you talking about? The June of what

16 year, when you took up these positions?

17 A. 1992.

18 Q. Thank you. Now, the position you marked with R, what did the

19 positions look like there? What were they?

20 A. The positions at the letter R, were the positions when you go from

21 the left-hand side of the road along the road. They were along the road.

22 Q. Well, that's not enough. It's not enough to say along the road,

23 left-hand side of the road. What were they like? What was there at your

24 positions? What did you have there?

25 A. The R position from Andja's house towards the Dragaseve house and

Page 8251

1 Jevtovica house, there were Muslim forces in the vicinity.

2 Q. Now, Witness, would you please concentrate. Were you in houses or

3 in something else? Where were you when you were up at that position?

4 Where were you in actual fact?

5 A. We were along the edge of the road right up by the woods, and then

6 later on we dug trenches to protect ourselves from the actions going on.

7 Q. And what did those trenches look like? How long were they, where

8 you were? What was the length of the trenches?

9 A. The trenches were at every 20 or 30 metres, one next to the other,

10 following on from the other.

11 Q. And how far were the trenches of the BH army from where you were?

12 A. The BH army soldiers were at a distance of 20 to 30 metres, by

13 Andja's house, and a little further towards the other houses, about 50

14 metres there.

15 Q. Well, on this map can you mark Andja's house and Jevtovic's

16 house? And put an A for Andja's houses?

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. And the Jevtovic's houses, you can put a J there.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. And what was round about, all around you? And we're talking about

21 the positions of the BH army and the positions of the Romanija Corps.

22 A. There was a thick forest where the positions were.

23 Q. Can you tell me what the combat operations looked like throughout

24 the war?

25 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President.

Page 8252

1 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor.

2 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President, it's not clear to me if we're still

3 talking about 1992. If we are, I submit that this evidence is irrelevant.

4 A bit of background about the witness, when did you join the army, and

5 what did you first do when you joined the army, is fine, and it helps

6 understand the evidence that is relevant, but this level of detail about

7 events greatly preceding the indictment period is, I submit, irrelevant.

8 And even if this is -- the testimony is that this continued into 1994 or

9 1995, I am still hard-pressed to understand the relevance to a case that

10 alleges attacks on civilians to this level of detail of the opposing

11 armies, the military operations here.

12 So I submit that this evidence is irrelevant, and that's my

13 objection, and that's my submission.

14 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Tapuskovic, you've heard the

15 objection raised by Mr. Docherty, and this brings us back to what I was

16 saying yesterday. It is something that we seem to be debating on a daily

17 basis, the relevance of some of the evidence.

18 I'm looking at the clock, and if I'm not mistaken, you've been

19 talking for an hour and your speaking time for this examination-in-chief

20 is of an hour and a half. So you've devoted a full hour to the

21 presentation of the background of this witness, talking about his

22 situation in the army in 1992.

23 Now, I believe that the time has come to move on to something

24 else.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with all due

Page 8253

1 respect, would you check the time with the relevant official. I have not

2 used up one hour. There's no question of that. But you can see the

3 problems that I have encountered in examining this witness. And if we

4 were to see how far I've come thus far, then the comments would have been

5 in order, but I have to deal with matters of this kind as a lead-up to

6 questions that are relevant for the entire period of the conflict. But I

7 have not used up one hour so far, far from it.

8 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, you're right. You are right.

9 According to the registrar, you haven't used that full hour, but please

10 keep to the essential questions.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Witness, now, all this time, from 1992 to 1995, were you at this

13 same place, at the position that you're talking about here?

14 A. In -- from 1992 to 1995, we were at those same positions until the

15 end of the war.

16 Q. You said that this position -- that you took up this position in

17 June 1992, only then, and then you talked about the problems of

18 communication and linked to those roads.

19 Now, tell me, what happened most frequently, first of all at these

20 positions, the positions that you were at in that forest, as you said,

21 facing the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22 A. When we arrived to take up those positions it was our assignment

23 to hold the communication lines, to maintain control of the communication

24 lines, but we encountered constant provocation from the BH army side;

25 mostly, when the buses arrived carrying civilians going to Pale, or the

Page 8254

1 elderly and sick who were passing by that road going to Pale, to the

2 hospital there that was at Koreni.

3 Q. And what happened?

4 A. You mean at the position at Andja's houses, Andja's houses.

5 That's very close to the road, Andja's houses, and as soon as they heard

6 the sound of a car or bus, whoever was passing by, they would start

7 shooting, firing at the road straight away.

8 Q. Were there any victims, any casualties?

9 A. While I was up at that position there was Andja Pandurevic. She

10 was killed in the bus from a shot fired from the BH army side. And there

11 was another case later on, someone from UNPROFOR. An UNPROFOR vehicle was

12 moving from Pale towards Lukavica, and it was taking some humanitarian aid

13 but was hit. The cabin was hit, and the driver swerved off the road. And

14 Colovic, I don't know his first name, but he ran over a man called Colovic

15 who was 61 years old and on his way towards Pale on foot. So the driver,

16 the UNPROFOR vehicle, having swerved off the road crashed into this man.

17 Q. All right. Very well. You've already said that, but can you

18 please tell me how this firing went with you on one side and the army of

19 Bosnia and Herzegovina on the other side some 30 metres apart? What did

20 this look like, this action relating to this road?

21 A. We didn't fire at all unless provoked by them. Unless they fired

22 at our positions or on the road, we refrained very much in order to avoid

23 anything major. In some cases, we had to retaliate, return fire, in order

24 for the civilians in the buses and passenger cars to pass.

25 Q. And when you go along this road that was under your control, you

Page 8255

1 say that the road runs to Zlatiste. Please do not answer yet. It

2 continues towards Zlatiste. And this road at Zlatiste, what was the

3 ability to actually be able to observe from that place beneath the road?

4 Was it possible to actually look at the area beneath the road or below the

5 road at that spot?

6 A. From Zlatiste to Osmice it's about 800 metres, but you could not

7 observe for some hundred metres below the road because from Bosut, from

8 Debelo Brdo, and from Zelengorska Street where there is a forest, there

9 was firing at those sectors, and from Colina Kapa.

10 Q. Thank you. Can you mark with arrows which directions was it fired

11 at. You mentioned Debelo Brdo, Zelengorska Street and Colina Kapa.

12 Please wait, wait for the typing to stop and then you can mark first by

13 arrows the way you describe that from the direction of Debelo Brdo. So

14 first can you make an arrow from that direction.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. Can you mark that arrow with the letter "CH". The one from the

17 direction of Debelo Brdo can you mark that with the letter D. The one in

18 the middle with the letter -- and that is from the direction of this road.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. Please do not speak until I am finished. And can you mark that

21 with the letter G.

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. This road, this part of the road, what was happening with that

24 throughout the conflict, from 1992 until 1995?

25 A. The road from Zlatiste is where the B and H forces fired at our

Page 8256

1 positions and the road itself, and we were forced to use sandbags and to

2 make a protective shield of some two and a half metres height so that the

3 road could be used more safely for travel.

4 Q. Can you please tell me, I forgot to ask you in the beginning, when

5 you took the weapons from the Territorial Defence, the civilian

6 protection, at that time when the -- when we're talking about early 1992,

7 May, in that area, in those areas where you were at the time when you took

8 the rifle into your hands, were there any more serious, heavier weapons

9 there as well?

10 A. We didn't have anything. We had semi-automatic and automatic.

11 Q. Witness, please follow me. My time is very limited. I didn't ask

12 you -- all right. When you set off, what did you have of the weapons in

13 that place where you were?

14 A. We had semi-automatic and automatic rifles where we were. We

15 didn't have anything else.

16 Q. Thank you. But now I would like to ask you, in 1992, did you

17 notice up there from Tilava, Lukavica, you mentioned Gojkovici, your own

18 place where you come from, did you notice anywhere there any more serious

19 things such as heavy weapons? That's what I'm thinking of.

20 A. When we took the weapons from Tilava there were no heavy weapons

21 in that area.

22 Q. And were there such weapons anywhere else, if not in Tilava?

23 Under the control of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

24 A. There was some in the place of Kozarevici. That's where the

25 mortars were.

Page 8257

1 Q. And where was this? Can you please indicate that? Approximately,

2 if it's not ...

3 I didn't see you marking anything. I still haven't seen what you

4 marked. Can you make a larger circle so that we can see where it is?

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. And now can you mark that with the letter F?

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. And can you please tell me here at Zlatiste, where you have

9 already marked all of these other things, were there any soldiers there at

10 positions, and where were they and what sort of weapons did they have?

11 A. At Zlatiste where our positions were, we had automatic rifles and

12 semi-automatic rifles. These are just infantry weapons that we had in

13 that area.

14 Q. Well, you just had rifles and infantry weapons, but what were the

15 people who held those rifles in? Where were they?

16 A. There were trenches at the positions which we set up because of

17 the fire from enemy formations.

18 Q. Thank you. And was any heavy weaponry there at all at any time

19 during the war?

20 A. There were no heavy weapons there at all throughout the war in

21 that area there.

22 Q. And throughout the conflict, especially during the time from

23 August 1994 until November 1995, beside the firing at that section of the

24 road, were there any serious attacks in that period in view of the

25 importance of that road?

Page 8258

1 A. There was an attack in 1994, sometime in September. It was a

2 minor attack that we thwarted very quickly. I don't remember the exact

3 date, but in 1995, I recall an attack on the 15th of June, where in the

4 area of Andjina Kuca and Jevtovica Kuca formations of the B and H managed

5 to pass at 4.00 or 5.00 in the morning past that line, kill four of our

6 soldiers: Milisav Topacovic; Zarko Djukic; Dzebo, I don't know his first

7 name; and Mile Milidrag.

8 Q. Thank you. And can you please tell us if you remember when

9 General Dragomir Milosevic assumed the post of commander of the

10 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

11 A. General Dragomir Milosevic assumed this post in early 1994.

12 Q. In early 1994?

13 A. As far as I can remember, it was in early 1994 that he assumed

14 that post.

15 Q. Thank you. And do you know what happened in 1994? Do you know

16 anything about, for example, what happened to the mortars that were, as

17 you explained earlier, as you said, which were at the letter F? Do you

18 know if anything in those terms was decided on in 1994?

19 A. In 1994, heavy weaponry was pulled out from the area of

20 Kozarevici, and these weapons were taken. I cannot really tell you the

21 exact location, but it was in the direction of Trnovo.

22 Q. Thank you. And during 1994, at some point did you leave these

23 positions where you were at Andjina Kuca and Jevtovina Kuca, and if you

24 went to another location where they were clashes between the two warring

25 sides?

Page 8259

1 A. We went to Trnovo where the offensive was underway from 1995, by

2 the army of the -- of Bosnia and Herzegovina. So we would go there in

3 shifts of 15 days each.

4 Q. I asked you about 1994, and you're speaking about 1995. I'm

5 asking you again about 1994.

6 A. We went in 1994 to Trnovo as well to help Trnovo up there.

7 Q. And let's cut things short. Can you please tell us what the

8 situation was like at positions in 1994 and on? Let's say from early 1994

9 until sometime. Were there any quiet periods where you were, or was it

10 different there than it was in other places?

11 A. It was different in that area because that road was very important

12 to us. There were constant attacks, provocations. We didn't retaliate

13 that much because this was very important for us, this road.

14 Q. And when was it the most difficult? Can you tell us that?

15 A. It was the most difficult in 1994, sometime in November, and also

16 in 1995, on the 15th of May.

17 Q. And what happened after the 15th of May onwards, and why do you

18 mention this particular date, the 15th of May?

19 A. On the 15th of May, the offensive began, the BH offensive,

20 throughout that area, the area held by the fighters of Republika Srpska.

21 Q. You didn't give us the year. You said the 15th of May, but you

22 didn't give us the year. And secondly, are you certain that it was the

23 15th of May when all this began? So you have to give us the date and the

24 year every time. The date plus the year.

25 A. It was on the 15th of May, 1995, when this breakthrough was made

Page 8260

1 between Andja's house. And this was one of the worst attacks, when the

2 Muslim forces -- the BH forces crossed the road, toppled the trees along

3 the road and entered a territory that we controlled. They went into that

4 territory for about a hundred metres.

5 Q. Now, 20 minutes ago or so when you were talking about this, you

6 said that that was the offensive and that that offensive took place on the

7 15th of June, 1992. Now you say 1995. You said the 15th of May. So

8 which is it?

9 A. Your Honour, I meant the 15th of June. I made a mistake.

10 Q. Well, do you know whether at the position you were at and when the

11 offensive started, were there any casualties among the soldiers on your

12 side and the civilians, any fatalities?

13 A. On the 15th of June, 1995, Milisav Topacovic was killed, as I

14 already said.

15 Q. You don't have to repeat what you've already said. What I'm

16 asking you now is this: You say it began on the 15th of June, and as the

17 events unfolded, did what I asked you about happen? Did you see anything?

18 Did you learn anything?

19 A. As I was at home on the 15th in the morning, 15th of June, when we

20 were called to go and defend that territory, the BH army shelled the area

21 of Stanojevici, Kozarevici, so that no reinforcements could reach the

22 area. And one shell, an 82-millimetre shell fell between Sreto Gojkovic's

23 house and shed, but luckily no one was killed. And then there was extra

24 shelling following that one because of the reinforcements.

25 Q. And how long did the offensive last? Do you remember that?

Page 8261

1 A. The offensive lasted into the afternoon.

2 Q. Thank you. I wasn't asking you about that particular day. I was

3 asking you in general. Did the offensive begin on the 15th of June and

4 ended on the same day or not? I'm asking you how many days the offensive

5 lasted.

6 A. I was in the area -- while I was in the area, it lasted throughout

7 that day and the next day too. They kept attacking. The BH forces kept

8 attacking those positions, the positions we managed to hold, and then on

9 the 15th of June, 1995, towards the evening hours.

10 Q. Mr. Gojkovic, you've already explained to us some things, and I

11 won't go back to those. You said that, and you've repeated that several

12 times, that the fighting never stopped because of the importance of that

13 road. Now, I'm asking you to the best of your knowledge and linked to

14 that offensive that started on the 15th of June, how long it lasted. I

15 assume you had information about how long it lasted in all the areas where

16 there was combat activity going on. And not in one day, I mean generally.

17 Well, if it only lasted one day, then say it lasted one day and I'll be

18 satisfied with that. But if it went on for several days, tell us please.

19 A. The offensive against our positions lasted for three days. Now,

20 the other positions, as far as information reached me, the offensive

21 lasted for two or three days there, too, against those positions.

22 Q. All right. Tell me then, please, did you ever see Dragomir

23 Milosevic, General Dragomir Milosevic?

24 A. I saw General Dragomir Milosevic two or three times a month. The

25 general would come by. He would come up to the positions and he was

Page 8262

1 always ready to come and see us in the trenches and to boost our morale

2 and to tell us to keep control of the road, of that communication line,

3 because it was necessary. And quite simply, he came by to congratulate us

4 for holding the line and for the fact that there was no problem along that

5 road.

6 Q. Now, did he stay there for any length of time or was he just

7 passing by because he had to?

8 A. The general would stop by to see us in the trenches. He would

9 talk to us every time he was going that way.

10 Q. And do you know where he was on his way to, where he was going?

11 A. The general was moving in the direction of Pale, Trnovo, Vogosca,

12 Ilijas, Ilidza. That way.

13 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Tapuskovic, I think we now need

14 to take the break. It is 12.25. You have taken one hour and 10 minutes,

15 and so you still have 20 minutes left. So when we resume, you will have

16 the floor for 20 minutes at most.

17 And so let me give you the rest of the programme for the day. We

18 now have a break for one hour beginning now, so we shall resume at 1.35.

19 And when we resume, we will continue until 3.05. Then there will be a

20 20-minute break, after which we will again resume at 3.25 until 5.00. The

21 hearing is adjourned.

22 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.35 p.m.

23 --- On resuming at 1.37 p.m.

24 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed, and we give

25 the floor to the Defence. Mr. Tapuskovic.

Page 8263

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I'll be

2 very brief. I don't think I will even use up my 20 minutes that I'm

3 entitled to.

4 I would like to keep this map, so I kindly ask you to provide the

5 witness another pen of another colour, because I'm going to ask the

6 witness to mark a few more things on the map, but I would like to keep the

7 image as it is at the moment. Can we have another colour, not the red?

8 Q. Please, can you take this new pen, and can you mark the street

9 which you referred as Zelengorska.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. What you have just marked at Zlatiste on the road as the positions

12 of the VRS army, with respect to the street that you have just marked,

13 Zelengorska, where were the positions of the 1st Corps of the BH army?

14 Could you please draw another blue line on this map.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. Does it go anywhere further in depth or tell me, I don't want to

17 spend any more time on this map, what was the distance between these

18 positions in this place, between the positions of the two militaries?

19 What was the distance in metres, for example?

20 A. The distance in metres was about a hundred metres as the crow

21 flies.

22 Q. And where you were in the forest?

23 A. In the forest, about 20 to 30 metres from Andja's house or 50

24 metres up by Sovici house.

25 Q. And my last question has to do with this: You've already

Page 8264

1 explained that in the positions where you were, the intensity of fire was

2 continuous throughout all that time. You have also provided another

3 explanation about the arms. Can you tell us how did the conflicts between

4 the two militaries evolve when it came to the weapons, in the position

5 where you were some 20 to 50 metres away from them?

6 A. The conflict at the distance of 50 metres was with infantry

7 weapons. Fire was opened at us, and we would return fire from the same

8 infantry weapons.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you very

10 much. I have no further questions for this witness. I would kindly ask

11 for this map to be kept in this form as a Defence exhibit.

12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Tapuskovic, I believe you should ask the

13 witness to identify the two blue lines on the street -- on the map. One

14 was the Zelengorska Street, and one was the front line, the ABiH front

15 line, but it's important that we keep track of which is which.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] You're right. In haste, I had

17 failed to do that.

18 Q. The line that represents Zelengorska Street, can you put a

19 letter M next to it -- actually, letter D. And can you also mark the

20 positions of the BiH army with a letter -- I can't think of a letter. I

21 don't want to repeat the letters that we used before. Put an F -- no,

22 you've already used F, put an E.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

Page 8265

1 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, we shall admit that exhibit as

2 evidence.

3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D310, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

5 The trial attorney would like to take the floor.

6 Cross-examination by Mr. Docherty:

7 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Gojkovic.

8 A. Good afternoon.

9 Q. My name is John Docherty. I'm one of the prosecuting attorneys on

10 this case. I have some questions for you this afternoon concerning the

11 things you've been talking about while being questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic.

12 If I ask a question that's not clear to you, would you please ask me to

13 clear it up rather than just guessing at what the answer; is that all

14 right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You testified that you were in the -- that you joined the

17 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps in 1992. Do you remember that testimony?

18 A. I don't remember the date, but I believe that I remember that it

19 was in 1992. Yes, it was in 1992.

20 Q. Once you were in the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, did you stay in it

21 until the end of the armed conflict, or did you leave before late 1995?

22 A. I spent the entire war in the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. I did not

23 leave until 1995, when peace accords were signed.

24 Q. And was it your testimony that you spent the entire war in this

25 area on the map monitor in front of you, it's the area in -- I'll call it

Page 8266

1 the upper right that's got a lot of markings in it. That's where you

2 spent your war; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, that is correct. I spent the entire war there.

4 Q. You also testified that in the areas where you were, there were no

5 heavy weapons. Do you remember giving that testimony?

6 A. I said that where I had been, where our positions had been, there

7 was no heavy weaponry, not in the vicinity.

8 Q. But you also testified that there were mortars at the position

9 marked on this map as F; is that correct?

10 A. That is correct.

11 Q. You, yourself, were never stationed at the position marked with an

12 F, were you?

13 A. No, I was never stationed there, nor do I know anything about

14 this.

15 Q. So when you said that there were mortars at the position marked

16 with the F, that was something you had heard from somebody else or

17 something you had read. It wasn't something that you yourself had

18 observed; is that correct?

19 A. That was very close, below the place where I resided.

20 Q. I'm sorry, I think we've misunderstood each other. You testified

21 that you were not stationed at the position marked F, and so I then asked

22 you, then when you testified about there being mortars at that position,

23 that was something you heard about from someone else. Can you tell us,

24 sir, am I right or wrong that you heard about the mortars from other

25 people?

Page 8267

1 A. I heard that from those people who were there.

2 Q. What rank did you have in the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps? Were you

3 an officer?

4 A. I was not. I was not an officer, no.

5 Q. So when you heard about the mortars, that was not through any sort

6 of official reporting; is that right?

7 A. I heard from the people who were close to the mortars that there

8 were mortars, because they were in the same unit.

9 Q. I understand, and what I'm trying to get at now is, when you were

10 in the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, were you a private soldier?

11 A. Yes, a private soldier.

12 Q. So you did not have access to the sort of reports that would be

13 circulated to officers who might need to know about things like weapon

14 placement outside their positions of responsibility. You were not -- you

15 did not have access to that flow, that type of information; is that

16 correct?

17 A. I did not have access to that type of information.

18 Q. So really your testimony is about -- your firsthand knowledge is

19 about the area where you were stationed throughout the war. Those are the

20 things that you would have seen yourself or heard for yourself; correct?

21 A. Well, what I heard and what I saw is true, and I am here to speak

22 the truth. I can't speak of the things that I only heard about.

23 Q. No. And just to be clear, I wasn't making any accusations, but I

24 was just saying that the things you can testify about, that you saw

25 yourself, are the things that happened in your trench on that road between

Page 8268

1 1992 and 1995. Am I right about that?

2 A. Yes, you are.

3 Q. Now, Mr. Gojkovic, I don't know if you're aware of this, but do

4 you -- do you know or have you heard that before a witness gives testimony

5 at this Tribunal, some basic information about what the witness will say

6 is communicated to the other side's lawyers? Were you aware of that?

7 A. I was.

8 Q. I'm sorry, did you say you were or you were not?

9 A. I was aware of that.

10 Q. Now, the document that describes your testimony, a so-called

11 65 ter summary, says that you were a member of the 1st Sarajevo Brigade.

12 Your testimony today has been you were a member of the 2nd Brigade. Is

13 2nd Brigade correct?

14 A. I misspoke. It was the 1st Sarajevo Brigade of the

15 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

16 Q. So you were in the 1st Brigade.

17 A. Yes, I was. I was in the 1st Sarajevo Brigade of the

18 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

19 Q. And you as a member of the 1st Sarajevo Brigade, this area where

20 you were stationed is a part of that unit's area of responsibility;

21 correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And that is along the road, I believe your testimony was,

24 Vraca-Lukavica-Pale. Is that the road that you were alongside during the

25 war?

Page 8269

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You testified that you observed firing on buses, cars, other

3 vehicles along at that road during the time that you were there. Do you

4 remember giving that testimony, Mr. Gojkovic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is it not true, however, that your -- you and your colleagues were

7 also dug in along that road?

8 A. Yes, it is correct that they were there along the road.

9 Q. And you were soldiers; correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In uniform and carrying weapons.

12 A. Yes. We carried arms, and we wore uniforms.

13 Q. And is it not also true that the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps had

14 sniper positions along that road throughout the war?

15 A. From Zlatiste up there to Andja's house there were no

16 sharpshooters. In my platoon there were no sharpshooters either.

17 Q. And how long a distance is it from Zlatiste to this house in

18 metres? How long -- how large a position of the front line are we talking

19 about here?

20 A. I'm afraid I didn't understand your question.

21 Q. How far is it in metres along that road from Zlatiste to Andja's

22 house?

23 A. Approximately 300 metres, thereabouts.

24 Q. And so that 300 metres would be the distance that you, yourself,

25 are speaking about?

Page 8270

1 A. Again what distance did you mention? I didn't understand.

2 Q. Sure. If you started at Zlatiste and you walked -- or you went

3 along the road until you got to Andja's house, I understand your testimony

4 to be that would be about 300 metres. Am I right about that?

5 A. Yes, if you take the road.

6 Q. And that is the area that your platoon was responsible for. Am I

7 right about that?

8 A. No, you are not. The platoon was from Andja's house to

9 Gasa Jevtovic's house.

10 Q. And your testimony is in the area from Zlatiste to Andja's house,

11 there were no sharpshooters. Did I understand you properly? No SRK

12 sharpshooters.

13 A. Whenever we went there, there were never any sharpshooters, never.

14 Q. Now, we've talked at the beginning of this cross-examination about

15 the things that you could see personally and the things that you could

16 not. And do you accept that in other areas of that road, areas that you

17 could not see yourself, the SRK did have sharpshooters?

18 A. I can't speak about things that I didn't see, can I?

19 MR. DOCHERTY: If we could please see 65 ter number 03390.

20 Q. And what I'm going to be showing you, Mr. Gojkovic, is a

21 photograph. Just take a moment and look at that. This is from a

22 publication, and it is described as a Bosnian Serb army position on

23 Mount Trebevic. Now, the road you were alongside went Vraca-Pale --

24 Vraca, Trebevic, Pale; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8271

1 Q. And you were a soldier for quite a number of years, 1992 through

2 and including 1995. Does what you see in this photograph in front of you

3 look like a military target, if you were an opposing soldier?

4 A. I'm not familiar with this place. I don't know where this is.

5 Again, I didn't understand what you want me to tell you. What do you mean

6 by military target?

7 Q. Well, thank you for asking. I'll try and clear it up because I do

8 want us to communicate clearly.

9 You began -- we began this discussion by talking about your

10 testimony concerning firing on buses and private vehicles along that

11 road. And I believe that so far you've testified that you and your

12 colleagues, who were armed soldiers, were dug in alongside that road. And

13 we're now talking about the presence of other military targets along that

14 road, and that's why we got onto the topic of sharpshooter positions.

15 You indicated that between Zlatiste and Andja's house there were

16 no sharpshooters, and then we talked about whether there might have been

17 sharpshooters in places that you did not personally see, and that's where

18 this photograph came from because this photograph is of a position on

19 Mount Trebevic. And if I understand correctly, the road that you and your

20 fellow soldiers were stationed alongside ran to Mount Trebevic; that was

21 part of its route. So that's my first question. Did that road

22 go to Mount Trebevic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And then my second question would be what we see in this

25 photograph. There's a soldier in uniform; correct?

Page 8272

1 A. It's a soldier in reserve. A soldier, but a soldier in reserve.

2 An elderly man.

3 Q. Okay. Wearing a uniform; correct?

4 A. Some didn't have anything to wear, those who fled Sarajevo, and

5 they put the uniforms on.

6 Q. And to this person's right there is a rifle, is there not? You

7 see it lying there? The stock is towards the camera.

8 A. Yes, it does.

9 Q. And the man has got binoculars as well; correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And so this is a photograph of a military position, isn't it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, I'm going to switch topics now. I'm going to talk to you for

14 a few minutes about where the weapons and ammunition came from that you

15 and your colleagues were using. You indicated that you had obtained

16 weapons from a warehouse. Do you recall that?

17 A. I said that we took the weapons from Tilava, from the TO.

18 Q. Okay. And you indicated that those were semi-automatic and

19 automatic infantry weapons; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did they look like the rifle in this photograph?

22 A. They were smaller rifles, semi-automatic and automatic.

23 Q. I'm finished with this photograph, so could we tender it at this

24 time, please, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed. Mr. Registrar,

Page 8273

1 please.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honours. At that becomes --

3 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Tapuskovic.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no objection

5 to this photograph being tendered as an exhibit, but I must say that it

6 was not explained to the witness if he knows anything about a position

7 like this, whether he's personally ever seen a position like this

8 anywhere. Other questions I'm going to put in the re-examination, but the

9 witness didn't say anything about where this position could be in view of

10 the fact that he was in the woods. But I have no objections to this

11 photograph being tendered.

12 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. --

13 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Docherty.

14 MR. DOCHERTY: If Mr. Tapuskovic has no objection, I'm not sure

15 it's incumbent on me to respond, but I do believe that the witness

16 testified several times that there were no sharpshooters that he had ever

17 seen personally, and since that is photograph of someone with binoculars

18 and a rifle, I -- I took it that the witness had not seen anything like

19 this. However, I'll ask.

20 Q. Mr. Witness, you were never positioned on Mount Trebevic, were

21 you?

22 A. Based on what I know, I don't think that this is a Trebevic

23 position. Not that part that I know at least. This photograph is unclear

24 to me where this is. You do need to know the locations to be able to tell

25 where this is.

Page 8274

1 Q. Mr. -- Mr. Gojkovic, the question was, you were not positioned on

2 Mount Trebevic, were you?

3 A. If this is Trebevic, this place, I wasn't there then, no.

4 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Tapuskovic.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The second objection, Your

6 Honours, since snipers are being insisted on here all the time. This

7 weapon that you see here, is that a sniper rifle?

8 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President, with respect, I think that's a

9 matter for re-examination, not an objection to the admission of the

10 exhibit.

11 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Tapuskovic, the Trial Chamber

12 has already admitted this exhibit, and therefore during -- well, during

13 the cross-examination, the witness simply answered the questions addressed

14 to him by the trial attorney.

15 Mr. Registrar.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be admitted as

17 Exhibit P818.

18 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

19 MR. DOCHERTY:

20 Q. Mr. Gojkovic, during the war where did you and your fellow

21 soldiers obtain the ammunition they needed for the weapons that they were

22 using to fight the war?

23 A. This was all done legally through the company, the battalion, and

24 I don't know what the procedure was after that, where the company senior

25 officer obtained them from.

Page 8275

1 Q. Could we please see 65 ter number 02305A, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: We could indeed, but I think I would like to hear

3 the witness's answer to the question put to him by Mr. Tapuskovic before

4 we leave this photo.

5 Mr. Witness, the weapon that you see on the photo here, what sort

6 of weapon is that?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a machine-gun. I don't know

8 what type it is, what M number, but it's not a sniper.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. Does this give rise to any further --

10 MR. DOCHERTY: It does.

11 Q. Mr. Witness, you say it's a not a sniper. You, yourself, never

12 had sniper duty during the war, did you?

13 A. No. No, absolutely not.

14 Q. You, yourself, were never trained as a sniper, were you?

15 A. No. No, never.

16 Q. You are not familiar with the types of weapons that snipers can

17 use in different situations, are you?

18 A. No, never, and I didn't want to learn about that either.

19 Q. I am going to assume, but please correct me if I am wrong, that

20 you have not read the expert report submitted by the Prosecution in this

21 case by a Dutch army officer about the sniping incidents at issue in this

22 case. Am I right that you did not read that report?

23 A. No, I did not read that.

24 Q. And, therefore, would not know that that expert identified a

25 machine-gun as the most likely weapon to have been used in several of the

Page 8276

1 incidents that are before this court. And I don't have the report in

2 front of me so I can't tell you how many, but you are not aware of that,

3 are you?

4 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Tapuskovic.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] With all due respect, the

6 assessment in the expert report is something that the Chamber has to make

7 up its mind on when it makes a ruling on that, because this is something

8 that can only be subjected to the opinion or the judgement of the Chamber.

9 It cannot be up to the witness to discuss what the expert is talking

10 about in his report. This is something that is a matter for the Trial

11 Chamber. If the witness were to be asked to deal with the findings of an

12 expert, then we would really go quite far in all respects at this moment.

13 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes. I think, Mr. Tapuskovic

14 is -- is right. It's not up to the witness to read the expert reports

15 that are submitted to the Trial Chamber. At any rate, the witness has

16 said that he has never been a sniper, never learned how to be a sniper,

17 and does not know how to distinguish weapons used by snipers.

18 We have the picture before us, and therefore we can assess the

19 situation. I think it's quite enough, and we can move on to something

20 else.

21 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President, I, of course, will move on to

22 something else in line with your ruling. I do want to briefly correct

23 what I believe is a misapprehension. I was not asking the witness and

24 would never ask a witness to discuss an expert report. I simply asked the

25 witness if he was aware of the contents of the expert report. But with

Page 8277

1 that I will move on.

2 And again if we could see 65 ter 02305a.

3 Q. And, Mr. Gojko, we're going to be talking about two pages from a

4 larger document. The first page is coming up on the monitor in front of

5 you, and this relates to the issue that we were just starting to talk

6 about, which is where the ammunition that you and your fellow soldiers

7 used came from.

8 In front of you, do you see a document? It's in your language on

9 the right-hand side. And does this document indicate that it is a

10 transcript of a tape recording of the 50th session of the National

11 Assembly held on the 15th and 16th of April, 1995, in Sanski Mostar? Have

12 I read that accurately?

13 A. Yes, you did read it correctly.

14 Q. Thank you. We're going to move now to the second page, and as I

15 say it's the second page of this -- of this extract. It's from a larger

16 document, and this is a portion of a speech, transcribed speech, by

17 General Ratko Mladic. And as soon as the English comes up, I'll just have

18 a few questions for you concerning it.

19 Do you see the paragraph, it's the first -- excuse me, the second

20 full paragraph on the page, and it begins: "As an illustration, I will

21 compare data of the consumption..." Do you see the paragraph that begins

22 with those words?

23 A. I do.

24 Q. Now, that paragraph begins: "As an illustration, I will compare

25 data of the consumption of certain types of materiel according to source

Page 8278

1 from the beginning of the war up until 31 December 1994, with the needs

2 for 1995 and the current situation."

3 Now, Mr. Gojkovic, are you aware that in late 1994, I believe in

4 August, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia placed sanctions on transfer of

5 arms to the Bosnian Serb army in Bosnia and Herzegovina? Are you aware of

6 that event?

7 A. I don't know. I don't understand this question at all. I was

8 just a regular soldier. I don't know how much was spent, when, where.

9 Please believe me, this is really not a question for me.

10 Q. Would you accept that General Ratko Mladic would know what he was

11 talking about when he describes to the RS Assembly where the ammunition

12 for its army is coming from?

13 A. Would you please repeat the question? I just was not paying

14 attention to -- I was looking at the other side.

15 Q. I'm sorry. I try to be more interesting and keep you focused, but

16 -- my question really was about the authority or the credibility of the

17 speaker here. This is a speech by General Ratko Mladic, and I was asking

18 if you would accept that General Mladic is someone who, if he's speaking

19 to the RS Assembly, is going to know where the ammunition for the army he

20 commands is coming from. That is a subject he would know about. Is that

21 not correct?

22 A. Please believe me that I'm not the right person to be able to

23 answer that. I have no answer to this.

24 Q. So you would not know whether Ratko Mladic would know where his

25 army's ammunition came from?

Page 8279

1 A. I don't know. I cannot say anything that I'm not able to check

2 100 per cent.

3 Q. Well, let's -- let's try this: Do you see that this paragraph,

4 the one I've directed your attention to, talks about the army's

5 consumption of different kinds of ammunition, and also talks about what

6 sources that ammunition was obtained from?

7 A. Sir, you're asking me -- well, you should be asking me about the

8 positions and where my position was. This is something that I don't know

9 anything about.

10 Q. And that's why I'm not asking you about it. I'm simply asking you

11 if the document says that this is where -- this is the different types of

12 ammunition, and this is where it came from. I respect your answer that

13 you personally don't know about these things, and that's why I'm carefully

14 asking you just about what the document says.

15 A. I really cannot tell you, because I'm not sure about it.

16 Q. Mr. Gojkovic --

17 JUDGE HARHOFF: I think we should move on.

18 MR. DOCHERTY: I think we should too. Mr. President, I will,

19 however, tender this -- this document.

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: I believe it fails the relationship test. I'm not

21 in favour of it, but let me consult with Judge Mindua.

22 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Tapuskovic?

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Tapuskovic, you've decided not

25 to ask for the floor? Very well.

Page 8280

1 Mr. Docherty -- Mr. Tapuskovic?

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, actually, I simply don't

3 know what to say, I agree with the view of Judge Harhoff on this. The

4 witness don't know anything about this. But I would almost agree for this

5 document to be tendered so that I could provide my own point of view, but

6 I do believe that it cannot be admitted according to this criteria.

7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well. You may seek to tender this document

8 through another witness.

9 MR. DOCHERTY: If I may, Your Honour. I quite agree that if it

10 was dependent upon the witness being able to authenticate the document, I

11 would not have offered it. However, before getting into the area the

12 witness did not know about, we looked at the first page which indicated

13 that this was a transcript of a speech given by a particular person to a

14 particular Assembly on a particular date. So I do not -- I do not rest my

15 submission for admission upon the witness. I guess I take the view that

16 the document has authenticated itself by the presence of page 1. That's

17 why I offer it.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: If there are other parts of this document to which

19 the witness can testify and knows about, then you can tender it, but you

20 can't tender it into evidence on the basis of what we've heard so far.

21 MR. DOCHERTY: Very good, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well. So please pursue.

23 MR. DOCHERTY:

24 Q. So, Mr. Gojkovic, just to sum up, you understand in general terms

25 what this case is about; is that correct? You have some understanding of

Page 8281

1 that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you understand that the evidence you have given today has been

4 limited to this small area on the map between Zlatiste and Andja's house,

5 if that is correct?

6 A. Yes. Zlatiste, Andja's houses, Dragaseve. Those houses, yes.

7 That is the area to which my testimony is limited.

8 Q. All right.

9 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, I have no further questions. I will

10 ask the document be marked for identification.

11 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] You're requesting this, for this

12 document, that it be marked for identification?

13 MR. DOCHERTY: Yes, I'm requesting that these two pages be marked

14 for identification, because there may be later a witness through whom it

15 can be offered. But it's not being offered, just MFI at this point.

16 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Registrar.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, it will be marked for identification

18 as P819.

19 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

20 Mr. Tapuskovic, do you have any additional questions for

21 re-examination?

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

23 continues]... Questions. One has to do with this photograph. Can we

24 please show the witness this document, P818.

25 Re-examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

Page 8290

1 Q. Witness T-15, can you tell us the reason for which you moved to

2 take up residence in your parents' house in the place you mentioned?

3 A. Yes, I can. Some time at the beginning of 1992, or more exactly

4 in February and March of that same year, the opportunity arose -- or,

5 rather, the circumstances and situation was such that for the people in

6 Sarajevo -- the people in Sarajevo began to be afraid. There were various

7 things going on, and this was reflected in the following manner: They

8 noticed some unknown people in the area where they would move around every

9 day and had been doing so for many years. Suddenly some new people

10 arrive, and these people carried weapons, and they stopped vehicles and

11 passengers.

12 Q. Thank you. But you were a policeman, weren't you, at that time?

13 A. Well, yes. I was stopped, too, even as a policeman. People would

14 ask for my ID. These were people in civilian clothing. They stopped even

15 me. And they had infantry weapons, a small arms, a pistol or a rifle,

16 perhaps. And all this instilled fear in the population. Not only me but

17 in the locals, the residents, and the people couldn't understand this

18 behaviour, this conduct. And one of the more drastic cases of this kind

19 occurred in April 1992.

20 I was driving my brother, who was ill, and I was driving my own

21 car, when I was stopped in front of the hospital at Hrastovi. That's what

22 it was called. It was a pulmonary disease hospital for chest disorders.

23 And I was stopped by a group of armed individuals whom I did not know.

24 They asked me where I was going. They made me get out of the car. They

25 took me into the hospital. They left my sick brother. They separated us,

Page 8291

1 so my brother stayed behind. They started beating me. I don't remember

2 how long this went on for. They told me that they had killed my brother,

3 in fact, and that I would end up the same way as him.

4 To the best of my recollections, I subsequently established that I

5 had been there for maybe some 40 minutes, up to one hour.

6 Q. Thank you. Tell me, you were wearing a police uniform, weren't

7 you, at the time?

8 A. Yes, I was wearing a uniform, but they seized my pistol and my ID,

9 police ID.

10 Q. Now, at the beginning of April -- you mentioned the 4th of April,

11 but in the coming days, did anything else happen that frightened you even

12 more?

13 A. Well, after this -- well, I'll call it arrest. Perhaps you would

14 call it differently, but I'm going to call it my arrest. They released me

15 upon the insistence of somebody. I don't know who insisted that I be

16 released, but they saw I suppose that I was a policeman although they

17 didn't give me back my police ID or my pistol, regular issue pistol. And

18 I didn't go back to Sarajevo any more. But on the 6th of April, the

19 village I was born in was attacked.

20 Q. Please, I'm not going to interrupt you. You can carry on, but

21 please don't mention the name of the place.

22 A. Sometime in the afternoon of that 6th of April, that place was

23 attacked with a large number of people, and that instilled even greater

24 fear.

25 Q. Just stop there for a moment. I told you not to mention the name

Page 8292

1 of the place, but tell me where the place is located in relation to one of

2 the recognisable geographical points or parts of Sarajevo, if you can put

3 it in relation to that.

4 A. If you look from the centre of Sarajevo, it would be towards the

5 north.

6 Q. And what is the dominant hill called there?

7 A. Well, in the direction of, let's say, Krs hill. We called it Krs

8 hill and Grdonj.

9 Q. Yes. Now, please carry on and tell us what you were saying about

10 the attack on that village?

11 A. In the attack a man was killed. The people defended themselves as

12 best they could with the means they had. We didn't know what the reason

13 for that was, for what had happened was. The media, in the evening,

14 broadcast the news that an incident had taken place and that no reason was

15 known for the incident, which triggered the incident. There were

16 some -- said to be some people there who had come in from outside, but I

17 say with full responsibility that they were locals.

18 After that 6th of April, all communications ceased between the

19 part of Sarajevo where I lived and the part I went back to.

20 Q. Thank you. When you say communications were interrupted, can you

21 explain to us what that means in relation to your village? You mentioned

22 Grdonj, Krs. So could you explain to us more specifically what that meant

23 or what you meant?

24 A. The road from that place to -- into town -- well, there was just

25 one road leading from there into town, and you couldn't move along that

Page 8293

1 road any more. The people were stranded in that place without any

2 possibility of going into town by car. And you couldn't go on foot

3 because of these armed people standing guard at certain elevations and

4 features that you had to pass through where there were some foot paths and

5 so on. So as of that day, the people could no longer pass along that way

6 and go in that direction.

7 Q. Now, please, I'd like to go on to another area because we don't

8 have much time, and I'd like to start off by showing you two photographs.

9 They are exhibits, Prosecution exhibits. So may we look at D256, first,

10 please. Let's just take a brief look at it.

11 No, I've made a mistake. I beg your pardon. I wanted P361 to be

12 displayed, please, would no markings on it. We'll come back to this

13 photograph, but I made a mistake. I wanted Prosecution document P361 to

14 be shown, but I mixed the photographs up in haste. So P361, please.

15 And can you just give me brief answers. What is this? What are

16 we looking at here above the houses?

17 A. That is Grdonj hill.

18 Q. Thank you. Now may we have a look at another Prosecution Exhibit,

19 P748. What is this? What's the elevation above those houses there?

20 A. This elevation is a place called Krs. That's what we called it,

21 Krs.

22 Q. Thank you. Now my next question. What we can see on this

23 photograph, is that directly linked to the previous photograph? Is the

24 previous photograph just a continuation of this one?

25 A. Yes, but I don't know if they were taken from the same position,

Page 8294

1 from the same point.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

3 make a request. These two Prosecution photographs I have joined together,

4 and I'd like these two joined photographs to be shown to the witness so

5 that he can confirm that in fact those two parts make one whole. So we

6 can display it on the ELMO perhaps, and then the witness can tell us

7 whether those two parts of the photograph, in fact, are one whole and then

8 to link up some positions that I'm going to ask him about and show them on

9 this photograph.

10 I did this myself with the witness's assistance, and I think it

11 might be useful to the Trial Chamber to get a better picture of this area,

12 because these photographs show you the whole area when they're joined

13 together.

14 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well. So show the photos to

15 the witness. Perhaps it would be good to also put them on the ELMO so we

16 can all see them.

17 JUDGE HARHOFF: But, Mr. Tapuskovic, were the two photos taken

18 from the same point?

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I suppose that

20 they were taken from below the cables about the same time as it is

21 indicated, but the most important thing is this: They depict the

22 configuration of the hill, and that's what they are good for. In that

23 respect, we should not have any problem.

24 I can examine the witness separately, but I believe it would be

25 useful for you to see two -- the two together.

Page 8295

1 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Sachdeva?

2 MR. SACHDEVA: Your Honour, I'm sorry and I understand my learned

3 friend was responding to a question from His Honour Judge Harhoff, but I

4 think one should be careful when suggesting this these two photographs

5 represent a certain fact which actually should come from the witness. So

6 in my submission, it was -- it can be possibly leading to make the

7 suggestion that these two photographs show a certain configuration when

8 really it's up to the witness to make that determination.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Registrar, do you recall if we took a picture

10 that could represent the entire feature here when we were at the site

11 visit?

12 THE REGISTRAR: No, Your Honour, I do not. However, I can look

13 into the issue and get back to you.

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Because even on the two photos that have been

15 glued together now, I'm uncertain about whether there is any distance

16 between -- whether there is any geographical distance between the two

17 photos. It seems to me that the ridge is broken where the two photos are

18 put together.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm going to examine the witness

20 showing him the photos separately. I didn't do it too well. Maybe this

21 photograph should have been lifted by about half a centimetre and then

22 they would tally perfectly. Because the wall that was there -- this is

23 where the photos were taken, between these two geographical regions. If

24 this photo was a bit higher, then it would be perfect.

25 I understand the Prosecutor's objection. I'm going to do my best

Page 8296

1 to separate the photos and ask the witness for some explanation. As

2 things are now it would take less time, but if the Trial Chamber thinks

3 that this is an amateur work or that the photos have been tampered with, I

4 will have no choice but agree with that and I will then separate the

5 photos and examine the witness using the two photos separately.

6 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Well, go ahead, yes, rather then

7 the basis of the separate pictures so to avoid all confusion.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Can we now first see

9 P478, the first photo, without anything, which is 65 ter 3165.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Tapuskovic, I would prefer that

12 we now take the break while you put some order in your pictures, and we

13 will resume again in 20 minutes. And when we do resume in 20 minutes, we

14 will have altogether an hour and a half still, and I would like you to

15 bring to an end -- come to an end quite quickly so that the Prosecutor can

16 then question the witness so that he can leave this evening. So the

17 hearing is now adjourned.

18 --- Recess taken at 3.05 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 3.30 p.m.

20 [The witness not present in court]

21 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed.

22 I'm asking for the witness to stay outside because I have a small

23 announcement to make. It is half past 3.00. We have an hour and a half

24 left until 5.00, and I would very much like to be able to release this

25 witness at 5.00 p.m., because we don't want to keep him in The Hague until

Page 8299

1 Please, Witness, did you join the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps at all?

2 A. No. I worked in the police, and I was never a member of the

3 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

4 Q. When you -- what did you do actually?

5 A. After 1992, after the month of April of that year, I continued

6 working in the Republika Srpska police force. I performed regular

7 policing duties. Therefore, within the purview of the police work, and on

8 exceptional occasions we would assist the military when the defence lines

9 came under threat, especially in this area that we have discussed so far.

10 This is where only the villagers resided. There were no additional

11 forces.

12 Q. Thank you. Since your house was also there in that area, I am, of

13 course, not mentioning the name of the village, was that the place where

14 you normally stayed, and was that the place where you most frequently took

15 part in the events that involved conflicts?

16 A. Yes. I went to work from there every day. This is the place

17 where I resided with my family. Very often in my free time when these

18 conflicts were taking place, I would assist and help my relatives and

19 neighbours.

20 Q. Thank you. You said that this road was not passable, that you

21 couldn't go from here to the town. Was there any other road that you

22 could use to go into town?

23 A. In 1992, there was no communication up to the end of August, the

24 beginning of September. You could only go on foot through some hills.

25 Then a road was constructed. Actually, it was a macadam road leading

Page 8300

1 towards Vogosca and also leading towards Mount Romanija and further on

2 towards Pale.

3 Q. Thank you very much. If you look at the photo, could you please

4 show us where this road led in respect of the hilltops that are featured

5 in this photo.

6 A. The photo is very clear to me. It was taken from the area in

7 front of the barracks, i.e., from the cemetery at Zmajevac. Behind this

8 line, the horizon line, if I may call it that, behind that hill there was

9 this road.

10 Q. Before I ask you more questions about this photo, could you please

11 tell us what you especially did in the Republika Srpska police? Was there

12 any particular job that you would like to mention?

13 A. In 1993, there were combat activities in the entire area. They

14 intensified. Various sabotage units broke into the area in order to cut

15 off the road. And also the road that connected Pale with another part of

16 Sarajevo called Lukavica, Gojkovici, and Vraca.

17 There were daily incursions aimed at cutting the road in half, and

18 since that was the lifeline for the population that resided in the area,

19 that road had to be defended.

20 Q. If I understand you well, the road that was constructed behind the

21 hill and the road Vraca-Lukavica, where did this road leave -- lead

22 from -- towards Vraca? It didn't lead towards Lukavica.

23 A. The road that I showed to you behind the hill connected Ilidza,

24 Vogosca, and the settlements over here.

25 Q. Thank you very much. You've already explained that. But the

Page 8301

1 other road, the road leading from Lukavica and Vraca, where did it go?

2 A. It went from Jahorina, Mount Jahorina through Vraca and ended in

3 Lukavica across Zlatiste.

4 Q. And you've told us that these roads run behind the road and the

5 one in Zlatiste were under constant threat. Is that what you have told

6 us?

7 A. Yes. That was a daily occurrence.

8 Q. When it came to the sabotage groups and operations that were very

9 frequent, as a policeman you were involved in that. Do you know anything

10 about Nedzad Ugljen?

11 A. I heard that he worked in the intelligence service during the war.

12 I read in the press that was under the control of the Muslim media.

13 Q. Thank you very much. But as a policeman did you hear of him

14 having anything to do with sabotage operations?

15 A. Yes.

16 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Sachdeva.

17 MR. SACHDEVA: That, in my submission, is a leading question.

18 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Could you please reword your

19 question, Mr. Tapuskovic.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: I apologise.

21 Q. Do you know anything about the operations that this was -- what is

22 his name, Nedzad Ugljen participated in?

23 A. Not personally. I don't have any knowledge about that personally,

24 but we did have information during the war that he did participate in the

25 preparation of various sabotage operations.

Page 8302

1 Q. Thank you very much. Let us now continue. In light of what you

2 have just told us, if we look at this hilltop can you please show us where

3 the positions of the BiH army were?

4 A. Yes, I can show you.

5 Q. Could you please take a pen, and can you draw a line from the

6 right-hand side of the screen to the left-hand side of the screen and mark

7 the positions of the BiH army?

8 A. This is a very small-scale photo. I don't know whether I can be

9 very precise.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the photo be blown up a

11 little?

12 Q. Just a moment. And now you can do it.

13 A. Yes, much better.

14 Q. Put your markings on the photo.

15 A. So I can use the pen to write on the screen? In this forest here.

16 Q. Draw a line along the length, the entire length of --

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. Thank you. Who was at the end of this red line up here where you

19 ended the line? Can you draw a circle there, please.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. And can you put a letter C next to that circle.

22 A. Letter C?

23 Q. Yes, please. Who was on these positions here?

24 A. The Federation army. The BiH army.

25 Q. And where were the positions of the VRS army?

Page 8303

1 A. As you look at the photo from where the photo was taken, they were

2 at a distance of some 40 to 50 metres. Here in this forest or woods there

3 is a facility, a building.

4 Q. You misunderstood me. You drew this line depicting the positions

5 of the BH army. Where were the positions of the VRS?

6 A. Behind the hill. I can't --

7 Q. Thank you. With regard to the hilltop that we see here, where

8 were the positions of the VRS?

9 A. Behind the hilltop at various distances ranging from 15 to 50

10 metres.

11 Q. The line that you have just drawn for us, can you mark it by

12 putting a letter M next to it.

13 A. At the beginning?

14 Q. No, somewhere in the middle.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. If we look at the hilltop or the ridge, where would you say that

17 the most frequent conflicts were between the BH army and the VRS?

18 A. Shall I draw that?

19 Q. Can you show us a typical place, what would be a typical place.

20 And after having done that, can you also mark that place with a line.

21 A. During the conflicts, from the position C you can have a very good

22 view of the road that goes through here leading from Vogosca. From that

23 road every day there was intense shelling, and every day --

24 Q. Can you mark everything that you're saying?

25 A. I can't see it from this position. You can see it from point C.

Page 8304

1 From point C, you would be able to see the road, not from here where I'm

2 sitting.

3 Q. And please, I have to hurry up a little. Is there a ridge here?

4 A. Yes, there is. I can mark it.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours -- it says ridge,

6 and it should be cleft. Second of all, the word in the transcript is used

7 as hilltop, and the witness is talking about a ridge and that -- there is

8 a difference, a major difference there. There is a difference between

9 hilltops and the ridge.

10 Q. So my question for the witness is this: Could you please draw a

11 line marking this indentation between the hills.

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. Can you mark it by putting a letter U next to it.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Can you also mark with respect to that indentation where were the

16 positions of the BiH army, and where were the positions of the VRS?

17 A. The trenches of the BiH army were maybe 20 metres from the end of

18 this line.

19 Q. Please, please, follow me closely. With regard to the indentation

20 that you marked, or depression, with regard to that position where were

21 the trenches of the BiH army, and where were the trenches of the VRS?

22 A. The trenches of the VRS were behind the ridge, behind the hill.

23 Q. Please mark that above the ridge.

24 A. This line is some 20 metres behind the ridge, and you can't see it

25 from here.

Page 8305

1 Q. But you drew the line on top of that ridge?

2 A. Isn't that what you told me to do?

3 Q. Can you put a letter G next to that line, and -- and put "30

4 metres" to record what you've just told us.

5 Is it then correct that what you've just marked now and what

6 you've just told us that the trenches were some 30 metres behind this

7 line?

8 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, actually the witness has said 20

9 metres behind the ridge. Just for the sake of clarity and proper

10 recording of evidence. On page 111: "This line is some 20 metres behind

11 the ridge, and you can't see it from here."

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Let us ask the witness to tell

13 us.

14 Q. What did you say? How many metres?

15 A. I said between 20 and 40 to 50 metres. In this part up to 50

16 even.

17 Q. Thank you. Can you please write down from 20 to 40. From 20 --

18 write down from 20 to 40 M. At this place where it's 30 metres, you can

19 then add "20 to 40 metres."

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. And can you please tell the Judges, this ridge that stretches the

22 way you have marked it, were there anyone's positions there along this

23 ridge?

24 A. At the ridge itself, it was not possible to have any positions.

25 Q. Why is that?

Page 8306

1 A. Because it's a clearing and can be seen from either side. And in

2 war conditions, it would not be possible to stand there.

3 Q. Is there a tower or anything -- you can see on the hill that there

4 is a tower. Was there anything there during the conflict?

5 A. Are you thinking of this tower here next to the point marked with

6 the letter C? That tower was not there during the war, and from what I

7 can recall, it was built in 2000, sometime.

8 From the tower to the point marked with the letter C during the

9 war were the trenches of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

10 Q. And from that point how much is visible? Which directions can you

11 see in?

12 A. This is a dominant point, and you can see most of the road that

13 goes from here to Vogosca; and in one part, viewing from my direction

14 towards the right, you can see the other part of the road that leads to --

15 actually, that was used as a kind of detour during the war.

16 Q. And now can you please tell us when the clashes occurred? Why did

17 they break out? And you already talked about this a little bit.

18 A. I think that the reason for the clashes in this sector was taking

19 control of the road, because that was a connection with Pale and Vogosca

20 from this place.

21 Q. Witness, a little bit earlier you mentioned this tower, Kula.

22 What do you have to say about that?

23 A. The small tower was where the army of Republika Srpska was. It

24 was frequently exposed to attacks and --

25 Q. Thank you. And how many metres away from the ridge was this small

Page 8307

1 tower?

2 A. I really couldn't be specific about that. You cannot really see

3 it from this angle. I think it was some 20 to 30 metres back.

4 Q. And now since I really do have to hurry --

5 A. And from the point marked C, it was some 50 metres away.

6 Q. Do you know when General Dragomir Milosevic assumed the duty of

7 the commander of the Main Staff -- or, rather, the commander of the

8 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

9 A. I think that he assumed that duty in August 1994.

10 Q. Do you remember an incident or an event in September? Do you

11 recall that something happened in September there where your house was,

12 where you lived, and when you were at home?

13 A. Yes, I remember that attack very well. It went on for a long

14 time. It began, I think, around noon. The Muslim forces attacked from

15 all available weaponry with a lot of troops. Many people on our side were

16 killed or wounded. I think they captured some of the positions. I

17 remember I was at home at the time, and I had gone home to help.

18 Q. Can we please save this photograph just the way it is as a Defence

19 exhibit?

20 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Sachdeva.

21 MR. SACHDEVA: With respect, I object to the admission of this

22 photograph in evidence and the markings on it. The -- the witness has

23 given evidence that he was -- he assisted the SRK occasionally. There has

24 been no evidence as to how often that was, when that was. The witness was

25 a police officer in a village which -- which is in a different location.

Page 8308

1 I accept within the vicinity of this location; however, the detailed

2 knowledge with respect to the -- to the front lines, to the alleged front

3 lines, to the positions of the ABiH on the other side, on the enemy's

4 side, requires, in my submission, some further explanation from the

5 witness as it to how he knows this information. How often did he

6 participate? I know I could ask these questions in cross-examination, but

7 I felt that it arose because of the -- the submission to tender this

8 photograph with the marks into evidence.

9 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] All right. Very well.

10 Witness, you heard the objection raised by the trial attorney, and

11 I would like to echo this question. Can you tell us how you were in a

12 position to provide us with all this information in view of the fact that

13 you only were there occasionally?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. These positions were there

15 throughout the war. They did not change. Who saw them once, knew them as

16 they were, and I saw them whenever I took part in the defence of this

17 sector of territory. These positions are clearly visible from the other

18 side of town, from Vraca, for example.

19 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] All right. Very quickly, Mr.

20 Tapuskovic, please.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that the objection by my

22 learned friend Mr. Sachdeva is not appropriate.

23 Q. Since you stayed and rested at home every time you came back from

24 the trenches, can you please tell us how many times did these events occur

25 each time you went to positions to help the army of Republika Srpska?

Page 8309

1 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] The evidence can be now tendered

2 into evidence. Registrar.

3 THE REGISTRAR: As D312, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well. Please proceed, Mr.

5 Tapuskovic. Looking at the clock, I can see the 30-minute speaking time

6 we've agreed on are nearly exhausted. You've got another five minutes.

7 So please do proceed.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I just wanted to tender these two

9 documents -- well, rather, this one has been tendered. I wanted to show

10 it to the witness and I had a second which I wanted to explain. Your

11 Honour, Judge Mindua --

12 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Please go on, please go on .

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It's impossible to work like

14 this. I'm spending my time. Perhaps I can spend this time at some other

15 place. Maybe I can sacrifice some other witness, but I really need to use

16 this time fully. Perhaps I can abandon using a few other witnesses, but

17 this is a witness that is very important for the Defence. I respect the

18 expenses, the cost, if necessary. I don't know what I need to do in order

19 to have this witness examined the way he should be examined.

20 Q. Witness, please, can you look at document D156.

21 Can you please look at the heading of the document, the date, and

22 then what pertains to our forces. You can look at the description of the

23 events there, and you can see whether this corresponds to your description

24 of an event earlier when a lot of people were killed. Can you please read

25 this slowly. The heading, the date, what it is, and then what it states

Page 8310

1 in item 2, entitled "Our Forces." If I can ask you to read aloud, please.

2 A. "At the Sarajevo battlefield our forces on the day," and then it

3 says "army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, commander of the 1st

4 Corps." The date is the 19th of September, 1994.

5 Q. Thank you. And can you move straight to the paragraph

6 beginning: "Our forces." The first two paragraphs -- and can you please

7 tell us if this is what you talked about earlier?

8 A. Should I read that aloud as well?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. "At the Sarajevo front our forces on the 18th of September, 1994,

11 executed combat actions," combat actions I presume, "In order to occupy

12 Spicasta Stijene and Mala Kula. The following forces were engaged to

13 execute this assignment. One platoon from the 120th Mountain Brigade,

14 Crni Labudovi, the Black Swans, a platoon of the PTOD," I don't know what

15 that means, "of the MUP," of the police,"Bosnia, surveillance and sabotage

16 platoon of the 105th Motorised Brigade, two platoons, two intervention

17 platoons from the 105th Motorised Brigade, a pioneers platoon, an

18 engineers platoon, and two companies in reserve also from the 105th

19 motorised brigade. Upon commencement of the action, the 120th Mountain

20 Brigade captured a sector of Spicasta Stijena, the unit of the PTDO MUP

21 Bosna executed the attack to the right of Spicasta Stijena, and the same

22 upon the commencement of the action destroyed one trench. Further

23 advances were not possible due to continuous fire that dominated in

24 relation to them. By nightfall, the units had occupied a section of

25 Spicasta Stijena and moved the Chetniks back from Mala Kula. During the

Page 8311

1 execution of the attack, the aggressor fired the following weapons:

2 Mortar 60 millimetres, 82 millimetres, 120 millimetres, PAT --"

3 Q. Thank you. Can you now please just look at the last paragraph that

4 talks about something else. Can you please just read that sentence.

5 A. "The captured part of Spicasta Stijena was held -- or held on or

6 resisted up until the morning hours."

7 Q. Now, can you please tell us, if this is what you yourself took

8 part in?

9 A. Yes, that is that incident from September when a lot of manpower

10 and weaponry was used.

11 Q. And you can see this term, "Spicasta Stijena" being used there

12 repeatedly. You were born there. You are familiar with that area. Was

13 that place ever called by that name?

14 A. This location, if we're talking about the ridge, which the media

15 during the war called Spicasta Stijena, I don't know why they did that.

16 It was never called Spicasta Stijena. It was called Krs, Bosko Krs,

17 because the owner of the land -- the householder was called Bosko, and I

18 see that term here Spicasta Stijena and I'm not familiar with it.

19 Q. Okay. Thank you. And what happened with this action of the army

20 of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

21 A. The attack started around noon with heavy artillery fire at the

22 positions and also the settlement behind the front lines in order to make

23 it impossible for materiel and equipment to be brought in and people to be

24 brought in along the road that leads to Vogosca and the other place east

25 of Pale. And they took control --

Page 8312

1 Q. Tell me what happen. Were they stopped? What did you do when

2 they were stopped, if they were?

3 A. Well, yes, they were stopped towards the evening. And then during

4 the night we prepared ourselves and returned to our starting positions.

5 Q. Thank you. Tell me what happened in the summer of 1995 now,

6 please.

7 A. In 1995, if you mean the month of June --

8 Q. Yes, that's right.

9 A. That's when an all-out offensive started launched by the BH army.

10 Q. Thank you. Now, at that time, were you faced with a situation in

11 which you took part in an action linked to the area we've just been

12 discussing?

13 A. Yes, I remember it well, but I don't know if I can give you an

14 exact date now, but anyway, it was around the 20th of June, but I'm not

15 quite sure.

16 Q. Well, tell us briefly what happened.

17 A. There was an attack once again in the whole area, including a

18 locality -- well, if you look in the direction of the photograph that was

19 on our screen and to the right of that general area, then you will realise

20 that it was an attack on the road, on that communication line. And a lot

21 of men were involved and equipment and materiel, technical equipment,

22 weapons. And I happened to be on the road at the time by chance. I

23 rushed out of my vehicle. I was on my way to work, actually, and I joined

24 the soldiers because I wanted to take shelter.

25 Q. I'm now going to show you a document. DD003048 is the number, and

Page 8313

1 I'd like us to do what we did a moment ago. You can look at the heading,

2 the date, although it's a much shorter document. So would you just tell

3 us whether the document reflects the situation you've just described to

4 us.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, unfortunately, we

6 haven't got the translation of this document, but it's a very short

7 document. Just a few sentences if I might be allowed to read it out, and

8 that would complete my cross-examination of this witness -- or, rather,

9 the examination-in-chief.

10 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] All right. I give you leave to

11 read this out, but I remind you that you have used up 45 minutes plus the

12 20 minutes before the break, so in total 65 minutes. So you are beyond

13 the 50 minutes that I had decided and beyond the 60 minutes which was what

14 we had agreed upon before the hearing. So please do finish up.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] May I be allowed to read it out

16 quickly then so that I can ask the witness?

17 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Please do.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] "The army of the Republic of

19 BiH." The date is the 26th -- 20th of June, 1995, and it says in point

20 2.1, it says: "Our forces at 1800 hours launched an attack at the PK LO

21 of the enemy against armoured vehicles and the trenches at Spicasta

22 Stijena were targeted and the trench underneath -- below the crossroads

23 along the Barica-Mrkovici road and Stijene Kula were hit and Krstacka

24 [phoen] Kuca. The effect was excellent. When the trench was targeted

25 underneath the Barica-Mrkovici line the RB mines were not activated. They

Page 8314

1 failed to function."

2 Now, is that what actually happened on the 20th of June 1995?

3 A. Yes, that is the event.

4 Q. Thank you. Just tell me this: Were there any casualties among

5 the soldiers and civilians? And that's my last question to you.

6 A. Yes, there were casualties.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further

8 questions. Thank you, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like this document to be

11 marked for identification until it has been translated.

12 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] All right. Registrar, could you

13 mark it for identification pending the translation.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. We'll mark this for

15 identification as D313.

16 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Well, thank you very much.

17 Mr. Sachdeva for the cross-examination now.

18 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.

19 Cross-examination by Mr. Sachdeva:

20 Q. Good afternoon, Witness 15. I don't have much time so I'm going

21 to try and do this quickly. My name is Manoj Sachdeva and I'm a lawyer

22 for the Prosecution and I'm going to start now. Let me just try and

23 clarify one thing from you. You went to the trenches, the trenches that

24 you described 20 to 40 metres behind the ridge, you went there every day,

25 is that right, between the period 1993 to 1995?

Page 8328

1 MR. SACHDEVA:

2 Q. Now, Witness, this person that we've spoken about, someone that

3 you know and you've told the Court that you know, came and gave evidence

4 in the Galic case and testified for the Defence. You understand that?

5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer?

6 MR. SACHDEVA:

7 Q. Could you repeat your answer? The interpreter didn't quite hear

8 the answer.

9 A. I believe you. I don't have reason to doubt that.

10 Q. And when he came here and testified, he testified under oath as

11 you did. That's something you're aware of, that you know that he did

12 that?

13 A. You've said it. I don't know.

14 Q. And when he was examined, when he was giving evidence, he was

15 asked about the existence of an observation point that we were talking

16 about on the ridge, on the feature that we know as Sharpstone, and I just

17 want to read -- I want to read with -- with the Court's leave, I want to

18 read the questions and answers that he gave to the Court, and then I'm

19 going to ask --

20 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Tapuskovic, I see you standing,

21 but you again would like to object?

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I am finding it really hard to

23 stand up. I don't want to interrupt my learned friend, but I have to

24 object. First of all, we don't know what period of time are we talking

25 about. Second of all, the testimony that we are going to be dealing with,

Page 8329

1 we have never been warned that this would be used so as to be able to

2 peruse the entire transcript. We are now faced with another delicate

3 problem almost at the very end of these proceedings. We have never

4 received this transcript, and we did not know until a minute ago that this

5 would be used. How can my learned friend now propose to present it to the

6 witness?

7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Tapuskovic, we went through this this morning,

8 and as long as the Prosecution does not intend to tender this earlier

9 testimony into evidence, then it is perfectly legitimate for him to probe

10 the witness by confronting the witness with what another witness has

11 testified. I suggest since we have nine minutes left that you allow the

12 Prosecution to confront the witness here in front of us now with what the

13 earlier witness once has testified.

14 MR. SACHDEVA:

15 Q. Witness, I'm going to -- I'm going to read the question and answer

16 that he gave under oath to -- to this institution, and as you said, you

17 know -- you know this person to have been a Sarajevo-Romanija Corps

18 soldier in the same -- you know him to be a Sarajevo-Romanija Corps

19 soldier.

20 "Q. Could you please describe to us in detail the observation

21 point. How big was it?"

22 His answer:

23 "A. You mean on the sharp rock features?

24 "Q. Yes.

25 "A. Well," -- and the answer is this:

Page 8330

1 "A. Well, that was dug into the ground of the premises of some 7

2 to 10 square metres. So this was dug into the rock, into the stone, and

3 the only thing you could see, there was just a hole 40 by 20. That was

4 the hole towards the city, an opening."

5 So I'm going to summarise. This person gave evidence under oath

6 that there was an observation point some 7 to 10 metres -- 7 by 10 metres

7 where there was a hole from which one could view the city of Sarajevo.

8 Now, I'm asking you again, does that cause you to reflect on the answer

9 you gave me, or are you still maintaining that there was not an

10 observation point on this feature?

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me, could I please ask you to observe

12 silence while cross-examination is going on.

13 Please proceed.

14 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. I'm waiting for your answer, sir.

16 A. Not for a single moment did I say that there wasn't one. As far

17 as I know, as far as I went there, I did not see any such thing in that

18 place.

19 If this witness that you have just mentioned said that that was

20 the size, I don't know whether I received a good translation, we are

21 talking about a large-sized place. Ten metres is a lot. I never saw

22 anything like that.

23 Q. Well, as I said in my earlier questions, let's just -- let me ask

24 you this: Did you ever hear from your fellow soldiers that there was a

25 point on top of the -- on top of the ridge that we see here where one --

Page 8331

1 where a soldier could look down into the city; in other words up from the

2 trenches where you were? I suggest to you, sir, that you must have heard

3 about that.

4 A. I don't know what it is that you're asserting. No, I never heard

5 of it. I never heard of an observation point.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: This is probably as far as we can get on this

7 issue. If you have any other issue, then I think you should move them on

8 so as to allow for Mr. Tapuskovic to have a question or two in

9 re-examination.

10 MR. SACHDEVA:

11 Q. Your Honour, Mr. President, I -- I'm going to, I must admit, find

12 it difficult to conclude my cross-examination in five minutes. This

13 witness has -- at least for the Prosecution there are some critical issues

14 that we have to try and elicit from this witness, and I have -- I did not

15 intend to be -- in fact I was told I had an hour as I was understanding

16 from the 65 ter summaries. I will -- might I just confer with my

17 colleague.

18 [Prosecution counsel confer]

19 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Sachdeva, well, you have no

20 more than 10 minutes. You can go to five minutes past 5.00.

21 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.

22 Q. Sir, before I move on to one further topic or a couple more

23 topics, I'm going to suggest to you that you're not telling the truth

24 about the observation point in this courtroom. I'm suggesting you're not

25 telling the truth about the observation point in this courtroom.

Page 8332

1 A. I cannot offer a comment, but I wonder what is it that makes you

2 say that? I have sworn to tell the truth and nothing but the truth. I

3 did not spend four years there as some soldiers did. What I'm saying, I

4 stand by that.

5 Q. Very well, sir. When you were there at the trenches, I take that

6 you and your fellow soldiers had binoculars; is that right?

7 A. I did not have binoculars. Neither did anybody around me. I

8 don't know how important this is for me to say. This locality is actually

9 a forest, and binoculars are of very little use.

10 Q. So your evidence is you never saw any one of your fellow soldiers

11 with binoculars during the times you were there at the trenches; is that

12 right?

13 A. During combat activities, and I would usually be there during

14 those times, it was impossible to use binoculars, and nobody would use

15 binoculars at those times.

16 Q. I'm not asking you whether they were used. I'm asking you whether

17 they were -- whether they existed, whether the soldiers had them. Did

18 they or did they not have them when you were there?

19 A. I really wouldn't know what people had.

20 Q. Sir, I suggest to you that -- well, let me ask you this question:

21 You told the Court that you had an M-48, an M-74 rifle; is that right?

22 A. I didn't say that.

23 Q. What rifle did you have then?

24 A. I said that I had an M-78 rifle, and then somebody asked me, I

25 don't know who it was, whether there were any M-48 rifles. I answered

Page 8333

1 that there must have been some, but this is a very old rifle from 1948. A

2 mistake again. My rifle was M-70A, and I would like to correct that.

3 Q. And, sir, did you while you were at the trenches, did you ever go

4 up to the top of the rock and fire at civilians in Sedrenik? Did you ever

5 do that, sir?

6 THE INTERPRETER: Would you repeat the name of the of place?

7 MR. SACHDEVA:

8 Q. Sedrenik, the village of Sedrenik.

9 A. I never went to the top and I never fired at civilians.

10 Q. I take it while you were there you must have seen some of your

11 fellow soldiers going up to the rock and firing at civilians. Did you see

12 that take place?

13 A. I must repeat again. During the time when I was in the trenches,

14 when I was on the Defence lines in that locality, this happened

15 exclusively when combat activities were going on. When there was an

16 exchange of fire on the separation line, when there was crossfire. It was

17 impossible to leave the trenches and move in any direction.

18 Q. When you say there was an exchange of fire, I take it you had to

19 be in a position to be able to see enemy soldiers, isn't that right?

20 A. I don't know whether you understood me. I don't understand

21 English, so I don't know whether this was recorded. This locality,

22 including the ridge and to the right of the ridge and to the left of the

23 ridge towards other positions is a forest, and it's very difficult to

24 notice anyone. It's very difficult because of the dense fir forest. It's

25 very difficult to see ahead more than 20 or 30 centimetres.

Page 8334

1 Q. Isn't it correct that during the conflict the trees were damaged

2 and, in fact, many of them were destroyed due to the combat activities?

3 Isn't that right?

4 A. Yes, in certain parts, that's right. There were some trees that

5 had been destroyed.

6 Q. Did you ever come to be aware or did you ever hear about SRK

7 soldiers firing from that location where you were, firing at civilians in

8 Sedrenik and into the city of Sarajevo? You must have heard about that,

9 sir, I suggest to you.

10 A. That soldiers opened fire at civilians in Sedrenik and that part

11 of Sarajevo which was under the control of the BH army? No, never. I

12 never heard about that. And I sincerely doubt that anybody would target

13 civilians. I think that is beyond all reason.

14 Q. Sir, did you ever shoot any soldiers?

15 A. Had I seen that with my own eyes, no. Now, whether in an exchange

16 of fire or crossfire there was anything like that, I don't know.

17 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I have nothing further.

18 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Sachdeva.

19 You were very efficient. I congratulate you.

20 So, Mr. Tapuskovic, for redirect, but I now have a little bit of

21 difficulty with the interpreters who are not going to be too happy if this

22 goes on very long, if we go beyond the time foreseen.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I went on a little

24 longer last time. All I wanted to do was to deal with this photograph,

25 and I want it back on our screens, and that would have gained time.